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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Red Cross Partially Restores Water Treatment Plant in Basra

Aired March 27, 2003 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: We're just going to check on something that was just disquieting regarding the POWs and try and get down to what that was, because my head snapped back on that. Daryn just gave you the short view of how the day has gone and where we are. Here's a broader picture of the day that unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Moving by night over unfamiliar ground, coalition ground forces continued their march toward Baghdad. The Bush administration saying it will not change its strategy of aiming for the heart of the Iraqi regime.

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: We have air dominance. We have special forces in the north, the south and the west. The main ground forces are moving at a phenomenal pace towards the north, closing in on Baghdad.

BROWN: As best we can tell, here is the situation on the ground. A major ground battle is believed to be brewing between American and Iraqi tanks near the city of Najaf, not far from where the American 7th Cavalry lost two of its Abrams tanks but no soldiers in a firefight last night. The Americans have already taken a key bridge over the Euphrates river.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As they approach Baghdad, our fighting units are facing the most desperate elements of a doomed regime. We cannot know the duration of this war, but we are prepared for the battle ahead.

BROWN: Hundreds of American paratroopers landed at an airfield in Kurdish-controlled parts of northern Iraq. Meantime, badly needed supplies of fuel and food reached elements of the 7th Marine in south central Iraq, and British units were still involved in house-to-house clearing operations inside the city of Umm Qasr.

Refugees could be seen outside of Basra, where explosions lit up the night sky. Supplies of food finally reaching the Iraqi village of Safwan, where there was a near riot during its distribution.

Iraqi television knocked off the air last night for several hours was back on today, showing footage of casualties and severe damage in a busy Baghdad market. But American officials insist they did not send a missile crashing into the area. And finally, the Pentagon says it is still checking reports that as many as seven American prisoners were executed after their supply convoy was ambushed not far from the city of Nasariyah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I think what we're trying to make sure of is that the vice chairman of the joint chiefs was referring to that when he talked to Larry King tonight, and we're just trying to sort that out, just to be sure. That's what happened. Here's what's happening. Christiane Amanpour joins us now. She's with the British forces on the road to Basra. Christiane, it's nice to see you this morning. Good morning to you.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The latest from here militarily is that, and that is coming out of CENTCOM in Doha, Qatar, that this big column of Iraqi vehicles, something up to 120, we are told, 70 or so of those may have been Iraqi tanks, burst out of Basra towards the south. They don't know exactly why. They say it looked like it was an offensive position and it went down south. We're told that U.S. air power took on that column, and we're told some of those vehicles were destroyed. The others, we're told, were disbursed. Again, we don't know what the Iraqis were doing, but the speculations could be that they were trying to retake the Faw peninsula, the big, important oil terminal area of Iraq in the southern part of the country, which was taken early by the British, early on in the ground offensive.

So Iraq still putting up resistance much stiffer than expected, certainly in the southern area, certainly around Basra. The British and the Iraqi army units which are inside Basra have been exchanging artillery and tank fire, and now the British tell us that this could go on for weeks and maybe even months if they find themselves besieging Basra and in, quote, "a classic counter-insurgency posture." In other words, having to go in and try to take out those pockets of Iraqi military and irregular resistance inside the town and trying at the same time to take care not to cause too much civilian damage.

Now, what we're being told is the British are trying to remove and separate the political structure from the civilians, because what they want the civilians in Basra to do is have the space to, quote, "rise up." And so what they're trying to do is take out the ruling party headquarters, the Ba'ath Party headquarters. They say they have done that in Zubaya (ph), which is south of Basra, and also in Basra itself, and that, they say, is also where the command and control centers are for the irregular forces, which are also taking on the British, and, we understand, controlling the population inside Basra.

Now, there's also a humanitarian situation going on. We've been hearing a lot of reports that people are hungry, people are thirsty, water is a big issue inside Basra, as well as in the surrounding areas. People say that there's not enough water and they're very thirsty and they need water, and to that end, some humanitarian aid has been delivered, for instance, in the town of Safwan, which, again, is further south, closer to the Iraqi border. Some trucks were brought in, and people were really jumping all over those trucks to get the water and whatever aid was being delivered.

There have been some convoys of aid, again, low level aid, packets and boxes of water and food also taken into the port area of Umm Qasr, and we're expecting later today the big British ship to dock in Umm Qasr and start unloading much more significant quantities of aid. Back to you.

BROWN: Christiane, stay with us, but let me bring General Clark into this. You hear that sort of reporting that they start talking about months, counter-insurgency, this is asymmetrical warfare of a sort. What's running through your mind?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Need to stay steady. It might take months, but it probably won't. The real unknown here is how hard the Iraqis can fight and whether they can sustain this kind of resistance. If they do, then we clearly need more forces, but that hasn't been proved yet, and this is still a terrain that favors U.S. air power, except in the cities, and we'll tighten the grip on this and then we'll see. It may not last months.

BROWN: Christiane, give you the last word on this.

AMANPOUR: Well, indeed, we're not saying that it will. We're saying that this is what they're sort of cautioning us, don't expect this to happen overnight, and particularly around these urban areas where they have to be very careful because they're not only just trying to win the population over, they obviously physically don't want to kill civilians as they try to stamp out this Iraqi resistance.

But the bottom line is, and this is emerging very clearly across the battlefield, whether it be in the British sector, or in the American sector, that the resistance is much stiffer than people had expected and much stiffer than politicians and the others had given the impression before the war started. We've heard umpteen anecdotes and conversations and interviews from soldiers, whether it be with the embedded reporters or whether it be in our experience, they're all saying that while we can cope with this, we have much superior firepower and experience, this is much stiffer resistance than we expected.

And I'm curious to know whether General Clark thinks that the original suggestions that this kind of land war could have been conducted with perhaps 60,000 forces on ground was maybe optimistic in the extreme.

CLARK: Absolutely optimistic in the extreme. The point is that any bold operation has risk, and why would we want to take risks when we have the forces? We should put the forces in that we need, we should put in the extra forces for the insurance policy, and we should recognize the enemy as Michael Gordon said tonight an we keep saying, the enemy has a vote on what's going to happen here, and of course, he's going to try to resist. If he's successful, he's going to resist more strongly because he's going to be encouraged by his early successes.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. I know -- well, hopefully we'll hear from you before we leave tonight, but thank you, Christiane Amanpour who's moving with the British.

It's not only that the enemy has a vote in this. It seems to me, general, it's that the enemy has a plan in this...

CLARK: I think you're right.

BROWN: ... that the Iraqis, whatever they did or did not do 12 years ago, they were overwhelmed by American air power, this pounding they took for weeks, week after week, and then they were sort of routed in a heart beat on the ground, and there was, I think, a sense and where we remember something that a helicopter pilot told us in Iraq -- in Kuwait, -- a month ago, he said, well, 12 years ago we thought they were really good. We don't think that anymore. Well, whether they're good or not remains to be seen, but clearly they had a plan to make this as difficult by forcing the coalition forces into places they did not want to go, cities.

CLARK: Right. And they may not be as good as they were, but good at what? In terms of resisting in cities, their cities, with a Stalinist regime, and we've been saying this is a Stalinist regime, with a strong secret police, well, that's what put up the fierce resistance in World War II to the German invasion of Russia.

BROWN: And they -- I was looking at the transcript of the interview that Larry King did with General -- Marine General Peter Pace. They also, according to the coalition, they're not unwilling to do some pretty dastardly things, use civilians as shields. We saw weapons hidden in hospitals. They're not playing fair in that regard. But those are the conditions that the coalition finds itself in.

CLARK: Well, fair is the way you fight when your survival is not at stake. For this Saddam regime, their survival is at stake. They're going to do everything in their power that's necessary to maintain that survival.

BROWN: On that sobering note, we'll take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Later in this hour, we'll hear from Tom Friedman, the columnist for the "New York Times" and one of the really smart people on the region that we are reporting on now.

Over to the Pentagon, and Chris Plante has the duty in this. There's a lot to report out of there. The defense secretary today said we are -- to pick up on the general's point, we are putting -- the United States is putting more forces in every day, and in his word, not a trivial number either.

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Aaron. In northern Iraq, as we're seeing from some of our people up there, the army has dropped 1,000 or so paratroopers into the town of Bashur (ph) in the Kurdish-controlled areas in northeastern Iraq to take over an airfield there. We're seeing here some exclusive CNN video of these paratroopers actually dropping into the zone in Bashur (ph) in northeastern Iraq there. A thousand in earlier today, last night, their time, and more coming in. They've taken the airfield so they can flow more troops in to open up a northern front, which was part of the original plan when the 4th Infantry Division was going to move in through Turkey; 4th Infantry Division, about 20,000 strong, was going to open up that northern front.

Now they've kind of gone on to an alternate plan while the equipment belonging to the 4th Infantry Division is being moved through the Suez Canal and down the Red Sea, it's going to come back up into the Persian Gulf and into Kuwait. Those 20,000 or so troops will be moved into Kuwait soon, within a matter of days, and they will marry up, as they say, with their equipment in Kuwait and joint the fight from the south, which was not the original plan, as I think we all know at this point, but another division coming in to help from the south and northern front being opened now by paratroopers, but once they secure an airfield, they'll have the ability to flow troops in with transport aircraft and equipment and so on for the opening of that front up there.

So they do want to spread the Iraqi troops as thin as they can and force them to address issues to their north, as well as their south. As we know, I think, the plan has evolved from the beginning. The U.S. says that they're on schedule and they are going according to plan, but certainly the plan has made some adjustments along the way regardless -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, what people say when they stand at the podium is policy, and it's important for them to put the best face on the moment, and that we understand and appreciate. Do you hear any grumbling in the hallways? Because "The Washington Post" is reporting, as I'm sure you know, that there's now some grumbling in the hallways that this thing is going to take months and that it certainly has not gone as well as anticipated.

PLANTE: Well, there's not a lot of grumbling. There might be a little bit of murmuring, perhaps. What's below grumbling? But people are looking at the situation. It's clear that the resistance in the south is a little more persistent than was expected. Again, no organized opposition in terms of Iraqi divisions taking on American and British units head on, but a lot of this guerrilla style, asymmetric warfare. It is slowing things up a bit.

As you mentioned a few minutes ago, the situation in Basra is taking up troops and time that they had not wanted to expend on these urban areas. They had more or less planned on bypassing these urban areas and going straight up north to Baghdad and making that the place where we squared off.

It's a war. And as they like to say here, no plan survives first contact with the enemy, and that appears to be the case here. Again, the generals here insist that they are on plan, that the timetable is moving along as they wanted it to, but certainly it's turned out to be a bit more complicated than many had originally expected.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Chris Plante at the Pentagon.

No organized opposition. It seems to me it depends what you mean by the word organized, because there's clearly a plan. Somebody organized that. CLARK: That's right. No, there are divisions in there. There are units of the chain of command in there. They're just not maneuvering on the battlefield. It's thrown us off, because I think we still expected the Iraqis to fight like they fought in 1991, where you could see the structure laid out in the Soviet style defense. Well, they're fighting in cities. They've got their own defense in the cities. It's not going to look the same as it did in 1991. But we shouldn't think it's not organized. It's definitely organized.

BROWN: Well, that's just the point. It seems to me it's the point we made a little bit ago that as the American generals learn from each experience, so too do the Iraqi generals learn. They learned what went wrong in 1991. It may be that they can't affect the end result, and it is probably true they can't affect the end result, but they can sure alter the timetable for the end result, and maybe, in their view, they can get enough international pressure on the United States and the British to end this before they get Saddam Hussein out of power. That almost certainly has to be the plan.

CLARK: Of course, of course, it's an integrated political military strategy in which Al Jazeera and the Iraqi news and so forth plays a key part in portraying the success of the Iraqi resistance and bills international support to try to halt the American-British war effort.

BROWN: We'll take a break here. When we come back, a reporter's journal, Dr. Sanjay Gupta's journal, through this first week of the war. A break first. CNN's coverage of the war in Iraq continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: An hour and a half or so ago, Don Hewitt was with us. Mr. Hewitt among the people who invented this form in television news, and he talked about watching these reporters, these embedded reporters from our network and all of the other networks, watching them perform their tasks in the field. We have asked our embedded reporters to help us prepare journals or diaries of their first week of covering this with the access that they've had. Tonight a journal, if you will, from Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): In the middle of the desert of northern Kuwait, the U.S. military is going over their ABCs.

We started back, you know, back in February several weeks ago really looking at medical preparedness. We knew this was going to be a different sort of conflict. Chemical and biological weapons were being discussed like never before. And how the troops were preparing back then was an important story.

Where are you from back home?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arizona. GUPTA: Arizona. All right, thank you very much for joining us. Back to you. We're going to be joining this convoy, three-mile long convoy supplying some of the forces in Iraq.

We ended up in northern Kuwait in the desert for sometime and then ended up on a convoy, a multiple car convoy, multiple vehicle convoy, 89 vehicles, three miles long. They told us it would take about five hours to get to the location where we were going to get. It took 17.

The conditions since we've been in Iraq have not been exactly what you'd call five star. We have slept under the stars in sleeping bags, we have slept by a bunker just so we can jump in it because there were so many times the alarm would sound in the middle of the night. We have slept in the back of a huge truck traveling through sniper-infested areas of Iraq. We don't have bathrooms out here, we don't have showers. I haven't showered in seven days now. And it probably shows.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE) many hours. As you can see, we're wearing our masks, they're Kevlar, and our helmets because we were instructed to do so as we were instructed also to be here in this bunker.

You know, I'm used to being in the studio, wearing a suit on the set. But this has been obviously a huge change for me. People keep telling me that, we're surprised that you're out there. Well, I can assure you, no one is more surprised than I am.

We're here, just behind the frontline, in an (UNINTELLIGIBLE) surgical suite. Right behind me for the first time ever, an operation has been done on the abdomen for a gunshot wound.

There is dust and sand blowing everywhere. Yet they're able to keep these operating rooms clean. They're able to do operations. We've seen them do it now, four or five operations just over the last couple of days, and as soon as they found out that I was a neurosurgeon, they immediately said to me, well, if we get any head injuries, we're calling you. Bottom line, we can't take care of those things here. And I thought that that was, you know, sort of an interesting thing to say and certainly made me feel welcome and that I would actually jump in, volunteer and help out in any way that I could. I felt both medically and morally responsible to do just that. I haven't had to.

A little while ago, a few hours ago, we were told to hunker down, put on all of our gear and get down. There had been a breach of a company size convoy actually heading our way, and apparently breached the perimeter.

You have to be scared if you're here. We are seeing men killed in action. We are hearing about possible chemical and biological stuff. Absolutely we're scared.

I'll be honest and say that this is probably a more dangerous sort of story to follow than I thought. I think most of the doctors that we've spoken with think they're a little bit busier than they expected to be and certainly operating on more Iraqis than they expected to be. But it really comes in spurts. We're just going to have to wait and see how it all plays out.

We have been really pleased with the stories we've been able to tell. I think that really -- that's what makes it worthwhile. We're getting the truth out there. We're getting the truth about how people take care of their fallen comrades, how they take care of the Iraqi soldiers, as well, how that all happens. We not only get to tell that story but we get to see it firsthand, we get to be a part of it. I think that's part of the embedding process too, to not only do the stories but to know what it's like for the people that you're doing the stories on.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Sanjay, you're on your way south toward Kuwait, by telephone. What's happening where you are?

GUPTA: Bill, yes, we're in a convoy of about 20 vehicles. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) had their guns out, pointed outwards at all times really throughout this several hour ride. Now, we're having no trouble right now traveling through southern Iraq.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And we have a special guest now, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, our CNN medical correspondent, just back from the field. You've been to Iraq. You're now back. You haven't taken a shower in nine days, but you look pretty good. Why are you here instead of with the Devil Docs, those Navy doctors you've been reporting from all this time?

GUPTA: Yes, well, you know, Wolf, the story we were trying to get was really to understand how medical care is given in the field. Starting with the frontline, which we showed, you know, these operating rooms in the field right at the frontline. We want to follow these patients back now, all the way back to definitive care in the rear line, and even maybe back to the USS Comfort. That's where we're going to try and head next. Some of the patients, in fact, that we saw get their operations are already on the USS Comfort. So we were hoping to catch up with them and really follow their whole progress.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Sanjay Gupta's journal. Dr. Gupta is a doctor, he's a trained neurosurgeon. And he has had a fascinating reporting experience, and now that he'll go out to the USS Comfort and follow those patients the rest of the way.

General, do you want to take a minute, do you want to explain event-driven planning in a minute or do you want to have more time to do that?

CLARK: I'd love to do it right now.

BROWN: All right, go ahead. (CROSSTALK)

CLARK: If you've been with us from the start of the program, you heard Jamie McIntyre talk about this discrepancy and you've heard others talk about, you know, when is the plan off track, and the Pentagon says it's on track; others say it's off track. Well, the simple point is that in planning like this, you don't have timelines for the operation. You have events that drive the movement from one phase to another. So it's -- the timelines are flexible, depending on what happens on the ground. So you could say phase one was when we occupied Kuwait and set the force, and phase one ended when the bombing started and the ground movement started.

And then you say phase two is you're moving up to Baghdad, and phase two will get when you have the force set in Baghdad and you commence your ground attack on the Republican Guard in Baghdad. Now, that's flexible. It could take a week, it could take two weeks, it could take two months. And so they're still on track with the concept of a plan and the phasing. It's just that the political assumptions have been a little bit too optimistic, at least as we understood them publicly, and the timeline will slip, but it doesn't mean they're conceptually off the plan. I know that sounds like double speak.

BROWN: All right, I'll play this game. That's rhetorical to a certain extent. It's absolutely correct that that it's in the same way -- it's absolutely correct. However, it is also correct to say, I believe, that things have happened on the ground that were unanticipated, that the resistance was stronger, that the tactic was different, that the assumption that there would be a population uprising in certain places that would allow the plan to move from step to step to step at a certain pace has not taken place. That for the sake of argument here I think is also true. So both things can be true.

CLARK: That's exactly right. And so that's what I was trying to convey is that the military is not necessarily are trying to put the best face on things, of course, because they're in the public relations business just like Saddam Hussein is and they want people to believe in our ability, in our ability to do this job. And things have changed. But they haven't changed so -- for example, if you had a huge Iraqi counter attack that defeated the 3rd Infantry Division and you fell back and you had to say, new phase, now it's the defense of Kuwait. Now, that's - that's -- your plan's been invalidated. Otherwise, it's just sort of stretched out.

BROWN: Yes, it's a little stretched out. Now we'll take a break. Our coverage continues in one minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

BROWN: Maybe after the top of the hour, we take a look at the morning papers' headlines in Kuwait. We can't do it here tonight because we ran out of printer paper. Actually happened. Ben Wedeman -- Daryn mentioned Ben and Ben was with us now a couple of hours ago. At the top, he's in northern Iraq where so much has happened in the last 24 hours and much of it has happened right on our watch here.

Ben, it's good to see you again.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, it appears that the sitskreig in northern Iraq has turned into something of a blitzkrieg.

Now here we are right on basically the front lines between the Iraqi and Kurdish forces and all along this ridgeline that you can see right here are Iraqi forces. We've been watching them dig in, bringing in heavier equipment, digging deeper trenches, bringing sandbag, numbers increasing, as well.

Now this -- yesterday, for the first time actually, U.S. planes began to hit those positions, and they came back this morning shortly after sunrise, in fact. We were out here on this ridge waiting to do a live shot with you, Aaron, when we saw some very large blasts on the horizon and saw airplanes overhead. They came back basically four times, dropped four bombs on those positions. In fact, the last one, the last bomb to fall I could see a tiny white speck falling slowly and hitting those Iraqi positions.

Now, since then, we've been watching them very carefully through our binoculars. We have been able to see that some of the Iraqi soldiers are actually sticking their heads up above their fortification. But every time they hear another plane fly over, and they have been flying over fairly regularly since those bombing runs, those Iraqi soldiers stick their heads back down because they do expect, as do we, these raids to continue -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just again, you are roughly how -- I saw you look up. You're roughly how far from where those bombs are falling? The camera sometimes deceives here.

WEDEMAN: Yes, we're about --about two miles, two and a half miles from the closest position.

Now, we've sent a crew down to the village of Kaluk, which is this community right behind me to get a closer look, to get some reaction from the local Kurdish fighters. But really, it is a relatively small area and we really do have a front row seat here -- Aaron.

BROWN: And the other...

WEDEMAN: I hear more planes overhead.

BROWN: I hear them too.

And just to underscore something you said, even those though these bombs have been dropped, there are still Iraqi soldiers in that area because they're sticking their heads up and ducking them down when they hear the bombs -- or the planes coming again. WEDEMAN: Yes, there's a fairly large group of Iraqi soldiers in this area and not only on the ridge line itself, but on the other side of the ridge line are their command bunkers, other positions, munitions depots, as well. And we've learned from the people in this area, who are largely involved in smuggling between the Kurdish controlled areas and those under the control of Saddam Hussein, that just about 10-15 kilometers behind this ridge line are many, many heavy artillery pieces which, according to some sources, have a range of up to 40 kilometers. In other words, they could reach the Kurdish stronghold of Erbil. So there's some very heavy equipment on the other side of these hills.

BROWN: Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman up in northern Iraq.

General, make one quick point you just jotted down because I think it matters here.

CLARK: Despite the accuracy of the bombing and the fact that if the bomb hits them they're dead, the airpower thus far hasn't caused them to break and run.

BROWN: They are not awed yet.

CLARK: Not yet.

BROWN: Not yet. But we're just starting.

CLARK: We need to do more.

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CLARK: Right.

BROWN: Earlier today, we had the chance to talk with Tom Friedman, who's a columnist for "The New York Times". Mr. Friedman has been covering affairs in the Middle East for a good many years. He is an accomplished reporter and author. I think in many circles, considered in the journalistic community at least the leading journalistic thinker in the region.

We sat down and talked with him for a good long time, and here is how that conversation went.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Tom, just to begin, anything either on the diplomatic side or the military side that's surprised you, so far, one week in.

THOMAS FRIEDMAN, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, one week in, I think it is clear that the war is a harder slog than we expected.

We don't quite know exactly why it's a harder slog. Is it because Iraqis as a whole are resisting us or because Saddam has managed to salt his most loyal militia, guerrillas and Republican Guard units around the country in a way that intimidates the population and is, in effect, holding them hostage? We don't know. I don't know. And it's one of the things I'll be most curious about, you know, as this proceeds. But what is clear is that it's not going as quickly as many people predicted or anticipated.

BROWN: When you said not going as quickly as we thought, who's the "we" in that sentence?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I think that, you know, certainly -- the body language in the sense one got from the administration before this war and a lot of the military experts certainly supporting it was that there would be a rather quick slice through to Baghdad. The whole idea of having a "shock and awe" campaign was that by mere "shock and awe," Iraqis would lay down their guns around the capital and that you would rapidly see defections, surrenders and rebellions in the south.

We may still see that. We've had two days of terrible weather. I think all of this is relative. I don't want to prejudge absolutely anything, but I think simply maybe the most optimistic predictions, Aaron, haven't come true and hopefully, the less optimistic ones but still optimistic will come true as the battle unfolds in the next two or three days.

It is in the nature of these kind of authoritarian regimes they look very strong and solid until they crack and then when they crack, they crack very swiftly. So I'm certainly ready to wait and see how it plays out, make no predictions. But in terms of the most optimistic scenarios, I would say that has not played out.

BROWN: I want to talk about both the ambivalence in the Arab world and you've written a lot about, and the Iraqi, as well.

Let me split the question and talk first about the Iraqis. Would you, in your reporting, have a sense that the Iraqi people themselves are ambivalent about what the Americans are doing there, and -- well, let's leave it at that. Do you think there's an ambivalence there?

FRIEDMAN: I just don't know.

I don't think we know what Iraqis really feel as long as Saddam Hussein is still running the country and as long as they have to feel and fear that he may come back at any time and may not be removed. After all, we came 12 years ago and tried to remove him or threatened to remove him and walked away.

So I think given that experience Iraqis are going to be very careful about expressing what they really feel until they see that Saddam Hussein has been expelled, killed, or captured.

BROWN: So we may be paying a price -- we may be paying a price for the failure to support the Shiias after the Gulf War.

FRIEDMAN: Well, we may be paying a short term price in that they're not ready to stick their necks out until they're certain we're serious about removing him and will not be deterred by this initial blowback from the Iraqi side. It's quite natural.

At the same time, one has to be, I think, keenly aware that -- there's a phenomena one finds in all postcolonial societies and certainly in the Middle East, and that is -- these people are very capable of hating their own dictator and the foreign occupier, even the foreign occupier who comes claiming to be a liberator. And until we prove otherwise, they may be wary of us -- so they can easily hold those contradictory two attitudes in their mind at the same time.

BROWN: And, in the rest of the Arab world, which you've done an awful lot of reporting on over the years, the ambivalence is a little more clear to understand.

FRIEDMAN: Yes, I mean in the rest of the Arab world, there's ambivalence toward the United States that's deeply routed. It relates to many things -- our support for Arab regimes that have been corrupt or dictatorial, our support for Israel when it does the right thing and the wrong thing. There's a whole host of reasons of their concerns and fears about the United States. Some have to do with culture and our cultural exports to that part of the world.

At the same time, there's enormous attraction to the United States, enormous temptation, and the two co-exist all the time. I think part of every Arab watching this is probably -- this evokes some of the worst kind of DNA memories of colonialism and imperialism, seeing people, you know, marched off prisoners of war, American troops, you know, and American forces blowing up buildings through gun cameras. It evokes probably a lot of troubling historical DNA in every Arab.

At the same time, I think part of many Arabs is also rooting for the United States to succeed and actually live up to its idealism and build a better Iraq, and one that is more open, more decent, more accountable, which is something that's been missing from the region.

So I think both of those are going on and that's why what we do there, what we ultimately build there will ultimately decide the shape and attitudes of the Arab Street.

BROWN: But all of that comes after. Is there -- and I want to talk about after. But is there anything that the administration can do or the coalition can do in this phase, this immediate phase that will draw more Arab support to its side?

FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, certainly I'm with Tony Blair in his advocacy of making an energetic effort to resurrect the Israeli- Palestinian peace process. I think that's only good for Israelis, only good for Palestinians and would only serve American interests in the region.

At the same time, you know, one of the tonal things that I think we could be doing better is instead of coming out everyday and saying, you know, We are going to win, we are going to crush them, it's only a matter of time. Well you can say that, and certainly to reinforce the troops and there's nothing wrong with that, I suppose.

But at the same time, I think we should be constantly reminding Iraqis and the Arab world why we want to win. What is it we want to build there? In what way do we want to invite them into our future? And I think we need to say that over and over again in Arabic every day.

BROWN: Do you think that message is getting -- I mean, this war, in so many ways is also -- it's being played out as a media war in fascinating and interesting ways. Is that message getting out through Arab language television through the American information efforts in the Arab part of the world?

FRIEDMAN: Well, not really. I mean ,if you look or listen to the Arab media like Al-Jazeera, they are now using almost identical terms to describe America and Iraq as they used to describe Israel in the West Bank. That is, they refer to the forces of American occupation just as they refer to Israelis in the West Bank that way. And they refer to Iraqis who have been killed, soldiers or civilians, as martyrs. Just as they refer to Palestinians who have been killed or blown themselves up vis a vis a the Israelis. So that I find very troubling and -- because that -- again, it plays in, it resonates in a certain way.

There's nothing we can do about that, Aaron. There's only one thing we can do: win the war and construct an Iraq with a legitimate, authentic Iraqi leadership and with a government that is more decent and accountable, that fair-minded people in the region and around the world would look at say, We hate how you did this. We wish you had done it through the U.N. and with some broader legitimacy, but you -- you did something to improve Iraq. You did something to better the neighborhood.

BROWN: I want to...

FRIEDMAN: If we can do that, everything will, I think -- good things will flow from that. If we can't do that, we can have any message we want and it's not going to resonate.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We have a couple more questions-- had a couple more for Mr. Friedman -- so our conversation continues after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're continuing our conversation with Tom Friedman of "The New York Times".

Before we move to the future, is there anything diplomatically going on now that you know of that might -- that is important to note?

FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, to me the two most important diplomatic things going on -- one there is a Saudi initiative out there, I think, trying to still find a way for Saddam Hussein to leave peacefully. I think that the only way an initiative like that may come to fruition, Aaron, is if -- if and when Saddam Hussein truly believes that it is, you know, one minute to midnight and he feels the cold gun barrel against his head. Only then I think will he contemplate somehow leaving. It will probably too late by then, but I wouldn't totally rule that out.

I think the second important diplomatic thing will be Tony Blair's meetings with the United States. Blair has come over here with a message that he wants to go quickly back to the U.N. to try to bring the U.N. at least into the humanitarian process in Iraq, maybe into the nation-building process afterwards. There's going to be a big debate over that, I think, within the administration and with -- and between the United States and Great Britain, but I think Blair is very eager to relegitimize or to legitimize the war through the U.N. process now that it's been launched.

BROWN: You have written extensively about how people might look at the success here, what the measures of success are. Why don't we talk a bit about that? A couple or three things that people ought to pay attention to.

FRIEDMAN: Well, obviously, we need to occupy Baghdad because you can't begin rebuilding the country unless you control the capital.

Secondly, Saddam Hussein has to be removed from the scene one way or another because Iraqis simply will not know or be free to express whatever they think as long as he is there and the perception is that his regime is still functioning.

You know, we have to hold Iraq together. There has to be -- the territorial integrity of the country has to be maintained if it's too be rebuilt. And, as I've said earlier, we need to produce an Iraqi government over the long haul that will be perceived as legitimate by Iraqis and by the -- by their neighbors and not as a Quisling of the United States. And therefore, we have to construct a consensual process in Iraq as we did help the Afghans do to produce an authentic Iraqi nationalist and hopefully a progressive nationalist in contrast to a dictatorial nationalist like Saddam Hussein to run the country after we're gone, which will hopefully be as soon as possible.

BROWN: Can that -- can the goals be met if the occupying force is not a U.N. occupying force and the administration, the governmental administration in place after the war is not a U.N. administration -- can it happen if it's just the Americans who are in charge?

FRIEDMAN: It's hard, very hard to predict yet. And I wouldn't want to go out on a limb there, because on the one hand, nation building is not something you want to do by committee. You know, they always say in the Middle East that a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

And at the same time, it would be great to have partners and allies for financial support and diplomatic cover. So how the administration is going to balance that I don't really know.

BROWN: And is it important when -- is it important that the next leader of Iraq, in your view, come from literally within the country, someone who's in the country now, or can it be someone from the outside, one of these dissident groups, anti-government groups on the outside? FRIEDMAN: In theory, obviously, it can come from people on the outside or the inside, and I don't know any of these people really, so I don't want to prejudge that someone who was abroad is by definition tainted.

But my gut tells me from, you know, having lived and worked in the Middle East that Iraqis themselves are more likely to view someone who lived through Saddam's tyranny, who emerges from within as -- and has not been tainted by contacts with, you know, some of the more, well, some of the opposition groups in America or Europe that maybe are viewed as too pro-American or too pro-Israeli -- someone like that who will emerge from inside, my guess is, is going to have a lot easier time developing respect and legitimacy in Iraq than someone who comes from the outside.

BROWN: Just two more areas quickly. Are you surprised at all? We were talking to someone from an Arab language paper the other day who said that across the Arab world they are sitting and watching this on television in much the same way that Americans are. Does it surprise you the interest across the Arab world that this has generated?

FRIEDMAN: Not in the least. We are -- we have just invaded the heart of the Arab-Islamic world and -- you know, one of the great capitals, one of its two epicenters, Egypt and Cairo being the other. And so this obviously is of great interest to people there. And they're watching for one thing -- what we build and how we build it.

BROWN: And finally, just you know, in a normal out in the field interview, I would say is there anything you want to say? You haven't said anything I didn't ask, you wish I asked. Is there any button you want to put on this we didn't get to in this conversation?

FRIEDMAN: You know, there's really -- one of the hard things following the war now for people is, you know, people want instant answers and certainly you've asked all the right questions.

But the fact is, until Saddam is gone, until we begin to see how Iraqis really feel, we're really not going to know what's inside this black box. But hopefully, we'll find more partners than less for building a decent Iraq and the only thing that's going to save us, Aaron -- the only thing that's going to redeem this thing is if we build an Iraq that Iraqis themselves and their neighbors look at and say, However you did it, you did improve the neighborhood.

BROWN: Tom, it's always good to talk to you. I hope I'll see you soon.

FRIEDMAN: Thanks so much.

BROWN: Thank you. Tom Friedman of "The New York Times".

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's a conversation we recorded earlier today. The night for us began with -- in northern Iraq where 1,000 or so -- now more than that, American soldiers have parachuted in, the very beginning of establishing a northern front in prosecuting this war. We were able to show you some grainy videophone pictures of that, and now we can show you a much cleaner view of how it looked when those 100, I think 97 young soldiers opened the door and started moving down -- moving down the line into the night sky.

One of the -- we talked -- literally had a conversation with First Sergeant Jason Geringer, if my memory is an good. He said, It all went pretty much as they had been training for months to do, that most of them slept on the way, about four hours, a little more -- four-hour flight. Most of them slept. The last 20 minutes or so, everybody packed up, got ready, hearts started beating, as you would imagined, and one by one, they jumped into the night sky, parachutes open, and everybody, he says, landed safely. They mustered up very quickly and they are now in the process of securing an airfield there that will set the stage for the northern front made necessary by the fact that the Turkish government would not allow Americans to come through there.

We'll take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've talked a lot about how eventually this -- when this battle is joined, if it's joined in a conventional way, the Republican Guard will be central to it.

We're joined from Austin, Texas tonight by retired Lieutenant General Paul Funk, who was commander of the 3rd Armored Division during the first Gulf War and we add, a former boss of General Wes Clark, as well.

General Funk, it's nice to have you with us.

Are you surprised at -- well, let me ask it slightly differently. Do you think the Iraqis learned from the experience of the first Gulf War and have set the stage a little differently this time?

LT. GEN. PAUL FUNK, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes, I certainly think they learned some lessons. I think they're doing some things that really have been done in warfare throughout history, and that is harassing supply lines, trying wherever they can to disrupt communications.

The real fighting hasn't really begun. We -- we know that. That's to come. And we'll just have to see.

BROWN: And these Republican Guard and the Special Republican Guard that we all imagine will be doing that fighting in the end game -- are they going to be the same soldiers, better soldiers or worse soldiers than the one you faced in '91?

FUNK: I would say they won't be all that much different, Aaron, and I'm really pleased, if I may compliment you, that you didn't call them the Elite Republican Guards because that -- that would connote that they're terrific soldiers or highly trained and skilled, and that they're -- they're not, if not invincible, certainly very, very tough to defeat.

They have been enforcers more than they've been soldiers. They're pretty well equipped. They get more training than the main line Iraqi units. But certainly, when we slammed into them at -- by the way, in a dust storm, much like what the guys have been going through in the last two days -- when we slammed into the Talatana (ph) Division at 5:13 in the evening on the 26th of February, they fought pretty hard. But even then they weren't nearly as quick as --as our soldiers. And in those kinds of fights, as we learned in the -- from the Arab-Israeli wars of an earlier era, the -- the gunner that fires fishes and most accurately throughout his force wins those kinds of fights. We won every one of them.

BROWN: General, just a final question. One thing -- I suppose if you're a soldier who -- you're being thrown out of Kuwait, you're an Iraqi soldier being thrown out of Kuwait, would it not be another thing if you're an Iraqi soldier trying to protect your capital -- might that not change the equation some?

FUNK: Sure, I think it's possible, without a doubt.

BROWN: General Funk, nice to have you on the program. I hope you'll come back one night. Thank you.

FUNK: You bet.

BROWN: Lieutenant General -- retired Lieutenant General Paul Funk. He was in Austin, Texas.

We take a break. On the other side, Daryn will update the headlines of the day and our coverage continues in a moment.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Basra>


Aired March 27, 2003 - 00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: We're just going to check on something that was just disquieting regarding the POWs and try and get down to what that was, because my head snapped back on that. Daryn just gave you the short view of how the day has gone and where we are. Here's a broader picture of the day that unfolded.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Moving by night over unfamiliar ground, coalition ground forces continued their march toward Baghdad. The Bush administration saying it will not change its strategy of aiming for the heart of the Iraqi regime.

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: We have air dominance. We have special forces in the north, the south and the west. The main ground forces are moving at a phenomenal pace towards the north, closing in on Baghdad.

BROWN: As best we can tell, here is the situation on the ground. A major ground battle is believed to be brewing between American and Iraqi tanks near the city of Najaf, not far from where the American 7th Cavalry lost two of its Abrams tanks but no soldiers in a firefight last night. The Americans have already taken a key bridge over the Euphrates river.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As they approach Baghdad, our fighting units are facing the most desperate elements of a doomed regime. We cannot know the duration of this war, but we are prepared for the battle ahead.

BROWN: Hundreds of American paratroopers landed at an airfield in Kurdish-controlled parts of northern Iraq. Meantime, badly needed supplies of fuel and food reached elements of the 7th Marine in south central Iraq, and British units were still involved in house-to-house clearing operations inside the city of Umm Qasr.

Refugees could be seen outside of Basra, where explosions lit up the night sky. Supplies of food finally reaching the Iraqi village of Safwan, where there was a near riot during its distribution.

Iraqi television knocked off the air last night for several hours was back on today, showing footage of casualties and severe damage in a busy Baghdad market. But American officials insist they did not send a missile crashing into the area. And finally, the Pentagon says it is still checking reports that as many as seven American prisoners were executed after their supply convoy was ambushed not far from the city of Nasariyah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I think what we're trying to make sure of is that the vice chairman of the joint chiefs was referring to that when he talked to Larry King tonight, and we're just trying to sort that out, just to be sure. That's what happened. Here's what's happening. Christiane Amanpour joins us now. She's with the British forces on the road to Basra. Christiane, it's nice to see you this morning. Good morning to you.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: The latest from here militarily is that, and that is coming out of CENTCOM in Doha, Qatar, that this big column of Iraqi vehicles, something up to 120, we are told, 70 or so of those may have been Iraqi tanks, burst out of Basra towards the south. They don't know exactly why. They say it looked like it was an offensive position and it went down south. We're told that U.S. air power took on that column, and we're told some of those vehicles were destroyed. The others, we're told, were disbursed. Again, we don't know what the Iraqis were doing, but the speculations could be that they were trying to retake the Faw peninsula, the big, important oil terminal area of Iraq in the southern part of the country, which was taken early by the British, early on in the ground offensive.

So Iraq still putting up resistance much stiffer than expected, certainly in the southern area, certainly around Basra. The British and the Iraqi army units which are inside Basra have been exchanging artillery and tank fire, and now the British tell us that this could go on for weeks and maybe even months if they find themselves besieging Basra and in, quote, "a classic counter-insurgency posture." In other words, having to go in and try to take out those pockets of Iraqi military and irregular resistance inside the town and trying at the same time to take care not to cause too much civilian damage.

Now, what we're being told is the British are trying to remove and separate the political structure from the civilians, because what they want the civilians in Basra to do is have the space to, quote, "rise up." And so what they're trying to do is take out the ruling party headquarters, the Ba'ath Party headquarters. They say they have done that in Zubaya (ph), which is south of Basra, and also in Basra itself, and that, they say, is also where the command and control centers are for the irregular forces, which are also taking on the British, and, we understand, controlling the population inside Basra.

Now, there's also a humanitarian situation going on. We've been hearing a lot of reports that people are hungry, people are thirsty, water is a big issue inside Basra, as well as in the surrounding areas. People say that there's not enough water and they're very thirsty and they need water, and to that end, some humanitarian aid has been delivered, for instance, in the town of Safwan, which, again, is further south, closer to the Iraqi border. Some trucks were brought in, and people were really jumping all over those trucks to get the water and whatever aid was being delivered.

There have been some convoys of aid, again, low level aid, packets and boxes of water and food also taken into the port area of Umm Qasr, and we're expecting later today the big British ship to dock in Umm Qasr and start unloading much more significant quantities of aid. Back to you.

BROWN: Christiane, stay with us, but let me bring General Clark into this. You hear that sort of reporting that they start talking about months, counter-insurgency, this is asymmetrical warfare of a sort. What's running through your mind?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Need to stay steady. It might take months, but it probably won't. The real unknown here is how hard the Iraqis can fight and whether they can sustain this kind of resistance. If they do, then we clearly need more forces, but that hasn't been proved yet, and this is still a terrain that favors U.S. air power, except in the cities, and we'll tighten the grip on this and then we'll see. It may not last months.

BROWN: Christiane, give you the last word on this.

AMANPOUR: Well, indeed, we're not saying that it will. We're saying that this is what they're sort of cautioning us, don't expect this to happen overnight, and particularly around these urban areas where they have to be very careful because they're not only just trying to win the population over, they obviously physically don't want to kill civilians as they try to stamp out this Iraqi resistance.

But the bottom line is, and this is emerging very clearly across the battlefield, whether it be in the British sector, or in the American sector, that the resistance is much stiffer than people had expected and much stiffer than politicians and the others had given the impression before the war started. We've heard umpteen anecdotes and conversations and interviews from soldiers, whether it be with the embedded reporters or whether it be in our experience, they're all saying that while we can cope with this, we have much superior firepower and experience, this is much stiffer resistance than we expected.

And I'm curious to know whether General Clark thinks that the original suggestions that this kind of land war could have been conducted with perhaps 60,000 forces on ground was maybe optimistic in the extreme.

CLARK: Absolutely optimistic in the extreme. The point is that any bold operation has risk, and why would we want to take risks when we have the forces? We should put the forces in that we need, we should put in the extra forces for the insurance policy, and we should recognize the enemy as Michael Gordon said tonight an we keep saying, the enemy has a vote on what's going to happen here, and of course, he's going to try to resist. If he's successful, he's going to resist more strongly because he's going to be encouraged by his early successes.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. I know -- well, hopefully we'll hear from you before we leave tonight, but thank you, Christiane Amanpour who's moving with the British.

It's not only that the enemy has a vote in this. It seems to me, general, it's that the enemy has a plan in this...

CLARK: I think you're right.

BROWN: ... that the Iraqis, whatever they did or did not do 12 years ago, they were overwhelmed by American air power, this pounding they took for weeks, week after week, and then they were sort of routed in a heart beat on the ground, and there was, I think, a sense and where we remember something that a helicopter pilot told us in Iraq -- in Kuwait, -- a month ago, he said, well, 12 years ago we thought they were really good. We don't think that anymore. Well, whether they're good or not remains to be seen, but clearly they had a plan to make this as difficult by forcing the coalition forces into places they did not want to go, cities.

CLARK: Right. And they may not be as good as they were, but good at what? In terms of resisting in cities, their cities, with a Stalinist regime, and we've been saying this is a Stalinist regime, with a strong secret police, well, that's what put up the fierce resistance in World War II to the German invasion of Russia.

BROWN: And they -- I was looking at the transcript of the interview that Larry King did with General -- Marine General Peter Pace. They also, according to the coalition, they're not unwilling to do some pretty dastardly things, use civilians as shields. We saw weapons hidden in hospitals. They're not playing fair in that regard. But those are the conditions that the coalition finds itself in.

CLARK: Well, fair is the way you fight when your survival is not at stake. For this Saddam regime, their survival is at stake. They're going to do everything in their power that's necessary to maintain that survival.

BROWN: On that sobering note, we'll take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Later in this hour, we'll hear from Tom Friedman, the columnist for the "New York Times" and one of the really smart people on the region that we are reporting on now.

Over to the Pentagon, and Chris Plante has the duty in this. There's a lot to report out of there. The defense secretary today said we are -- to pick up on the general's point, we are putting -- the United States is putting more forces in every day, and in his word, not a trivial number either.

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's right, Aaron. In northern Iraq, as we're seeing from some of our people up there, the army has dropped 1,000 or so paratroopers into the town of Bashur (ph) in the Kurdish-controlled areas in northeastern Iraq to take over an airfield there. We're seeing here some exclusive CNN video of these paratroopers actually dropping into the zone in Bashur (ph) in northeastern Iraq there. A thousand in earlier today, last night, their time, and more coming in. They've taken the airfield so they can flow more troops in to open up a northern front, which was part of the original plan when the 4th Infantry Division was going to move in through Turkey; 4th Infantry Division, about 20,000 strong, was going to open up that northern front.

Now they've kind of gone on to an alternate plan while the equipment belonging to the 4th Infantry Division is being moved through the Suez Canal and down the Red Sea, it's going to come back up into the Persian Gulf and into Kuwait. Those 20,000 or so troops will be moved into Kuwait soon, within a matter of days, and they will marry up, as they say, with their equipment in Kuwait and joint the fight from the south, which was not the original plan, as I think we all know at this point, but another division coming in to help from the south and northern front being opened now by paratroopers, but once they secure an airfield, they'll have the ability to flow troops in with transport aircraft and equipment and so on for the opening of that front up there.

So they do want to spread the Iraqi troops as thin as they can and force them to address issues to their north, as well as their south. As we know, I think, the plan has evolved from the beginning. The U.S. says that they're on schedule and they are going according to plan, but certainly the plan has made some adjustments along the way regardless -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, what people say when they stand at the podium is policy, and it's important for them to put the best face on the moment, and that we understand and appreciate. Do you hear any grumbling in the hallways? Because "The Washington Post" is reporting, as I'm sure you know, that there's now some grumbling in the hallways that this thing is going to take months and that it certainly has not gone as well as anticipated.

PLANTE: Well, there's not a lot of grumbling. There might be a little bit of murmuring, perhaps. What's below grumbling? But people are looking at the situation. It's clear that the resistance in the south is a little more persistent than was expected. Again, no organized opposition in terms of Iraqi divisions taking on American and British units head on, but a lot of this guerrilla style, asymmetric warfare. It is slowing things up a bit.

As you mentioned a few minutes ago, the situation in Basra is taking up troops and time that they had not wanted to expend on these urban areas. They had more or less planned on bypassing these urban areas and going straight up north to Baghdad and making that the place where we squared off.

It's a war. And as they like to say here, no plan survives first contact with the enemy, and that appears to be the case here. Again, the generals here insist that they are on plan, that the timetable is moving along as they wanted it to, but certainly it's turned out to be a bit more complicated than many had originally expected.

BROWN: Chris, thank you. Chris Plante at the Pentagon.

No organized opposition. It seems to me it depends what you mean by the word organized, because there's clearly a plan. Somebody organized that. CLARK: That's right. No, there are divisions in there. There are units of the chain of command in there. They're just not maneuvering on the battlefield. It's thrown us off, because I think we still expected the Iraqis to fight like they fought in 1991, where you could see the structure laid out in the Soviet style defense. Well, they're fighting in cities. They've got their own defense in the cities. It's not going to look the same as it did in 1991. But we shouldn't think it's not organized. It's definitely organized.

BROWN: Well, that's just the point. It seems to me it's the point we made a little bit ago that as the American generals learn from each experience, so too do the Iraqi generals learn. They learned what went wrong in 1991. It may be that they can't affect the end result, and it is probably true they can't affect the end result, but they can sure alter the timetable for the end result, and maybe, in their view, they can get enough international pressure on the United States and the British to end this before they get Saddam Hussein out of power. That almost certainly has to be the plan.

CLARK: Of course, of course, it's an integrated political military strategy in which Al Jazeera and the Iraqi news and so forth plays a key part in portraying the success of the Iraqi resistance and bills international support to try to halt the American-British war effort.

BROWN: We'll take a break here. When we come back, a reporter's journal, Dr. Sanjay Gupta's journal, through this first week of the war. A break first. CNN's coverage of the war in Iraq continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: An hour and a half or so ago, Don Hewitt was with us. Mr. Hewitt among the people who invented this form in television news, and he talked about watching these reporters, these embedded reporters from our network and all of the other networks, watching them perform their tasks in the field. We have asked our embedded reporters to help us prepare journals or diaries of their first week of covering this with the access that they've had. Tonight a journal, if you will, from Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): In the middle of the desert of northern Kuwait, the U.S. military is going over their ABCs.

We started back, you know, back in February several weeks ago really looking at medical preparedness. We knew this was going to be a different sort of conflict. Chemical and biological weapons were being discussed like never before. And how the troops were preparing back then was an important story.

Where are you from back home?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Arizona. GUPTA: Arizona. All right, thank you very much for joining us. Back to you. We're going to be joining this convoy, three-mile long convoy supplying some of the forces in Iraq.

We ended up in northern Kuwait in the desert for sometime and then ended up on a convoy, a multiple car convoy, multiple vehicle convoy, 89 vehicles, three miles long. They told us it would take about five hours to get to the location where we were going to get. It took 17.

The conditions since we've been in Iraq have not been exactly what you'd call five star. We have slept under the stars in sleeping bags, we have slept by a bunker just so we can jump in it because there were so many times the alarm would sound in the middle of the night. We have slept in the back of a huge truck traveling through sniper-infested areas of Iraq. We don't have bathrooms out here, we don't have showers. I haven't showered in seven days now. And it probably shows.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE) many hours. As you can see, we're wearing our masks, they're Kevlar, and our helmets because we were instructed to do so as we were instructed also to be here in this bunker.

You know, I'm used to being in the studio, wearing a suit on the set. But this has been obviously a huge change for me. People keep telling me that, we're surprised that you're out there. Well, I can assure you, no one is more surprised than I am.

We're here, just behind the frontline, in an (UNINTELLIGIBLE) surgical suite. Right behind me for the first time ever, an operation has been done on the abdomen for a gunshot wound.

There is dust and sand blowing everywhere. Yet they're able to keep these operating rooms clean. They're able to do operations. We've seen them do it now, four or five operations just over the last couple of days, and as soon as they found out that I was a neurosurgeon, they immediately said to me, well, if we get any head injuries, we're calling you. Bottom line, we can't take care of those things here. And I thought that that was, you know, sort of an interesting thing to say and certainly made me feel welcome and that I would actually jump in, volunteer and help out in any way that I could. I felt both medically and morally responsible to do just that. I haven't had to.

A little while ago, a few hours ago, we were told to hunker down, put on all of our gear and get down. There had been a breach of a company size convoy actually heading our way, and apparently breached the perimeter.

You have to be scared if you're here. We are seeing men killed in action. We are hearing about possible chemical and biological stuff. Absolutely we're scared.

I'll be honest and say that this is probably a more dangerous sort of story to follow than I thought. I think most of the doctors that we've spoken with think they're a little bit busier than they expected to be and certainly operating on more Iraqis than they expected to be. But it really comes in spurts. We're just going to have to wait and see how it all plays out.

We have been really pleased with the stories we've been able to tell. I think that really -- that's what makes it worthwhile. We're getting the truth out there. We're getting the truth about how people take care of their fallen comrades, how they take care of the Iraqi soldiers, as well, how that all happens. We not only get to tell that story but we get to see it firsthand, we get to be a part of it. I think that's part of the embedding process too, to not only do the stories but to know what it's like for the people that you're doing the stories on.

BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Sanjay, you're on your way south toward Kuwait, by telephone. What's happening where you are?

GUPTA: Bill, yes, we're in a convoy of about 20 vehicles. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) had their guns out, pointed outwards at all times really throughout this several hour ride. Now, we're having no trouble right now traveling through southern Iraq.

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: And we have a special guest now, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, our CNN medical correspondent, just back from the field. You've been to Iraq. You're now back. You haven't taken a shower in nine days, but you look pretty good. Why are you here instead of with the Devil Docs, those Navy doctors you've been reporting from all this time?

GUPTA: Yes, well, you know, Wolf, the story we were trying to get was really to understand how medical care is given in the field. Starting with the frontline, which we showed, you know, these operating rooms in the field right at the frontline. We want to follow these patients back now, all the way back to definitive care in the rear line, and even maybe back to the USS Comfort. That's where we're going to try and head next. Some of the patients, in fact, that we saw get their operations are already on the USS Comfort. So we were hoping to catch up with them and really follow their whole progress.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Sanjay Gupta's journal. Dr. Gupta is a doctor, he's a trained neurosurgeon. And he has had a fascinating reporting experience, and now that he'll go out to the USS Comfort and follow those patients the rest of the way.

General, do you want to take a minute, do you want to explain event-driven planning in a minute or do you want to have more time to do that?

CLARK: I'd love to do it right now.

BROWN: All right, go ahead. (CROSSTALK)

CLARK: If you've been with us from the start of the program, you heard Jamie McIntyre talk about this discrepancy and you've heard others talk about, you know, when is the plan off track, and the Pentagon says it's on track; others say it's off track. Well, the simple point is that in planning like this, you don't have timelines for the operation. You have events that drive the movement from one phase to another. So it's -- the timelines are flexible, depending on what happens on the ground. So you could say phase one was when we occupied Kuwait and set the force, and phase one ended when the bombing started and the ground movement started.

And then you say phase two is you're moving up to Baghdad, and phase two will get when you have the force set in Baghdad and you commence your ground attack on the Republican Guard in Baghdad. Now, that's flexible. It could take a week, it could take two weeks, it could take two months. And so they're still on track with the concept of a plan and the phasing. It's just that the political assumptions have been a little bit too optimistic, at least as we understood them publicly, and the timeline will slip, but it doesn't mean they're conceptually off the plan. I know that sounds like double speak.

BROWN: All right, I'll play this game. That's rhetorical to a certain extent. It's absolutely correct that that it's in the same way -- it's absolutely correct. However, it is also correct to say, I believe, that things have happened on the ground that were unanticipated, that the resistance was stronger, that the tactic was different, that the assumption that there would be a population uprising in certain places that would allow the plan to move from step to step to step at a certain pace has not taken place. That for the sake of argument here I think is also true. So both things can be true.

CLARK: That's exactly right. And so that's what I was trying to convey is that the military is not necessarily are trying to put the best face on things, of course, because they're in the public relations business just like Saddam Hussein is and they want people to believe in our ability, in our ability to do this job. And things have changed. But they haven't changed so -- for example, if you had a huge Iraqi counter attack that defeated the 3rd Infantry Division and you fell back and you had to say, new phase, now it's the defense of Kuwait. Now, that's - that's -- your plan's been invalidated. Otherwise, it's just sort of stretched out.

BROWN: Yes, it's a little stretched out. Now we'll take a break. Our coverage continues in one minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

BROWN: Maybe after the top of the hour, we take a look at the morning papers' headlines in Kuwait. We can't do it here tonight because we ran out of printer paper. Actually happened. Ben Wedeman -- Daryn mentioned Ben and Ben was with us now a couple of hours ago. At the top, he's in northern Iraq where so much has happened in the last 24 hours and much of it has happened right on our watch here.

Ben, it's good to see you again.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, it appears that the sitskreig in northern Iraq has turned into something of a blitzkrieg.

Now here we are right on basically the front lines between the Iraqi and Kurdish forces and all along this ridgeline that you can see right here are Iraqi forces. We've been watching them dig in, bringing in heavier equipment, digging deeper trenches, bringing sandbag, numbers increasing, as well.

Now this -- yesterday, for the first time actually, U.S. planes began to hit those positions, and they came back this morning shortly after sunrise, in fact. We were out here on this ridge waiting to do a live shot with you, Aaron, when we saw some very large blasts on the horizon and saw airplanes overhead. They came back basically four times, dropped four bombs on those positions. In fact, the last one, the last bomb to fall I could see a tiny white speck falling slowly and hitting those Iraqi positions.

Now, since then, we've been watching them very carefully through our binoculars. We have been able to see that some of the Iraqi soldiers are actually sticking their heads up above their fortification. But every time they hear another plane fly over, and they have been flying over fairly regularly since those bombing runs, those Iraqi soldiers stick their heads back down because they do expect, as do we, these raids to continue -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just again, you are roughly how -- I saw you look up. You're roughly how far from where those bombs are falling? The camera sometimes deceives here.

WEDEMAN: Yes, we're about --about two miles, two and a half miles from the closest position.

Now, we've sent a crew down to the village of Kaluk, which is this community right behind me to get a closer look, to get some reaction from the local Kurdish fighters. But really, it is a relatively small area and we really do have a front row seat here -- Aaron.

BROWN: And the other...

WEDEMAN: I hear more planes overhead.

BROWN: I hear them too.

And just to underscore something you said, even those though these bombs have been dropped, there are still Iraqi soldiers in that area because they're sticking their heads up and ducking them down when they hear the bombs -- or the planes coming again. WEDEMAN: Yes, there's a fairly large group of Iraqi soldiers in this area and not only on the ridge line itself, but on the other side of the ridge line are their command bunkers, other positions, munitions depots, as well. And we've learned from the people in this area, who are largely involved in smuggling between the Kurdish controlled areas and those under the control of Saddam Hussein, that just about 10-15 kilometers behind this ridge line are many, many heavy artillery pieces which, according to some sources, have a range of up to 40 kilometers. In other words, they could reach the Kurdish stronghold of Erbil. So there's some very heavy equipment on the other side of these hills.

BROWN: Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman up in northern Iraq.

General, make one quick point you just jotted down because I think it matters here.

CLARK: Despite the accuracy of the bombing and the fact that if the bomb hits them they're dead, the airpower thus far hasn't caused them to break and run.

BROWN: They are not awed yet.

CLARK: Not yet.

BROWN: Not yet. But we're just starting.

CLARK: We need to do more.

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

CLARK: Right.

BROWN: Earlier today, we had the chance to talk with Tom Friedman, who's a columnist for "The New York Times". Mr. Friedman has been covering affairs in the Middle East for a good many years. He is an accomplished reporter and author. I think in many circles, considered in the journalistic community at least the leading journalistic thinker in the region.

We sat down and talked with him for a good long time, and here is how that conversation went.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Tom, just to begin, anything either on the diplomatic side or the military side that's surprised you, so far, one week in.

THOMAS FRIEDMAN, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, one week in, I think it is clear that the war is a harder slog than we expected.

We don't quite know exactly why it's a harder slog. Is it because Iraqis as a whole are resisting us or because Saddam has managed to salt his most loyal militia, guerrillas and Republican Guard units around the country in a way that intimidates the population and is, in effect, holding them hostage? We don't know. I don't know. And it's one of the things I'll be most curious about, you know, as this proceeds. But what is clear is that it's not going as quickly as many people predicted or anticipated.

BROWN: When you said not going as quickly as we thought, who's the "we" in that sentence?

FRIEDMAN: Well, I think that, you know, certainly -- the body language in the sense one got from the administration before this war and a lot of the military experts certainly supporting it was that there would be a rather quick slice through to Baghdad. The whole idea of having a "shock and awe" campaign was that by mere "shock and awe," Iraqis would lay down their guns around the capital and that you would rapidly see defections, surrenders and rebellions in the south.

We may still see that. We've had two days of terrible weather. I think all of this is relative. I don't want to prejudge absolutely anything, but I think simply maybe the most optimistic predictions, Aaron, haven't come true and hopefully, the less optimistic ones but still optimistic will come true as the battle unfolds in the next two or three days.

It is in the nature of these kind of authoritarian regimes they look very strong and solid until they crack and then when they crack, they crack very swiftly. So I'm certainly ready to wait and see how it plays out, make no predictions. But in terms of the most optimistic scenarios, I would say that has not played out.

BROWN: I want to talk about both the ambivalence in the Arab world and you've written a lot about, and the Iraqi, as well.

Let me split the question and talk first about the Iraqis. Would you, in your reporting, have a sense that the Iraqi people themselves are ambivalent about what the Americans are doing there, and -- well, let's leave it at that. Do you think there's an ambivalence there?

FRIEDMAN: I just don't know.

I don't think we know what Iraqis really feel as long as Saddam Hussein is still running the country and as long as they have to feel and fear that he may come back at any time and may not be removed. After all, we came 12 years ago and tried to remove him or threatened to remove him and walked away.

So I think given that experience Iraqis are going to be very careful about expressing what they really feel until they see that Saddam Hussein has been expelled, killed, or captured.

BROWN: So we may be paying a price -- we may be paying a price for the failure to support the Shiias after the Gulf War.

FRIEDMAN: Well, we may be paying a short term price in that they're not ready to stick their necks out until they're certain we're serious about removing him and will not be deterred by this initial blowback from the Iraqi side. It's quite natural.

At the same time, one has to be, I think, keenly aware that -- there's a phenomena one finds in all postcolonial societies and certainly in the Middle East, and that is -- these people are very capable of hating their own dictator and the foreign occupier, even the foreign occupier who comes claiming to be a liberator. And until we prove otherwise, they may be wary of us -- so they can easily hold those contradictory two attitudes in their mind at the same time.

BROWN: And, in the rest of the Arab world, which you've done an awful lot of reporting on over the years, the ambivalence is a little more clear to understand.

FRIEDMAN: Yes, I mean in the rest of the Arab world, there's ambivalence toward the United States that's deeply routed. It relates to many things -- our support for Arab regimes that have been corrupt or dictatorial, our support for Israel when it does the right thing and the wrong thing. There's a whole host of reasons of their concerns and fears about the United States. Some have to do with culture and our cultural exports to that part of the world.

At the same time, there's enormous attraction to the United States, enormous temptation, and the two co-exist all the time. I think part of every Arab watching this is probably -- this evokes some of the worst kind of DNA memories of colonialism and imperialism, seeing people, you know, marched off prisoners of war, American troops, you know, and American forces blowing up buildings through gun cameras. It evokes probably a lot of troubling historical DNA in every Arab.

At the same time, I think part of many Arabs is also rooting for the United States to succeed and actually live up to its idealism and build a better Iraq, and one that is more open, more decent, more accountable, which is something that's been missing from the region.

So I think both of those are going on and that's why what we do there, what we ultimately build there will ultimately decide the shape and attitudes of the Arab Street.

BROWN: But all of that comes after. Is there -- and I want to talk about after. But is there anything that the administration can do or the coalition can do in this phase, this immediate phase that will draw more Arab support to its side?

FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, certainly I'm with Tony Blair in his advocacy of making an energetic effort to resurrect the Israeli- Palestinian peace process. I think that's only good for Israelis, only good for Palestinians and would only serve American interests in the region.

At the same time, you know, one of the tonal things that I think we could be doing better is instead of coming out everyday and saying, you know, We are going to win, we are going to crush them, it's only a matter of time. Well you can say that, and certainly to reinforce the troops and there's nothing wrong with that, I suppose.

But at the same time, I think we should be constantly reminding Iraqis and the Arab world why we want to win. What is it we want to build there? In what way do we want to invite them into our future? And I think we need to say that over and over again in Arabic every day.

BROWN: Do you think that message is getting -- I mean, this war, in so many ways is also -- it's being played out as a media war in fascinating and interesting ways. Is that message getting out through Arab language television through the American information efforts in the Arab part of the world?

FRIEDMAN: Well, not really. I mean ,if you look or listen to the Arab media like Al-Jazeera, they are now using almost identical terms to describe America and Iraq as they used to describe Israel in the West Bank. That is, they refer to the forces of American occupation just as they refer to Israelis in the West Bank that way. And they refer to Iraqis who have been killed, soldiers or civilians, as martyrs. Just as they refer to Palestinians who have been killed or blown themselves up vis a vis a the Israelis. So that I find very troubling and -- because that -- again, it plays in, it resonates in a certain way.

There's nothing we can do about that, Aaron. There's only one thing we can do: win the war and construct an Iraq with a legitimate, authentic Iraqi leadership and with a government that is more decent and accountable, that fair-minded people in the region and around the world would look at say, We hate how you did this. We wish you had done it through the U.N. and with some broader legitimacy, but you -- you did something to improve Iraq. You did something to better the neighborhood.

BROWN: I want to...

FRIEDMAN: If we can do that, everything will, I think -- good things will flow from that. If we can't do that, we can have any message we want and it's not going to resonate.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We have a couple more questions-- had a couple more for Mr. Friedman -- so our conversation continues after this short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're continuing our conversation with Tom Friedman of "The New York Times".

Before we move to the future, is there anything diplomatically going on now that you know of that might -- that is important to note?

FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, to me the two most important diplomatic things going on -- one there is a Saudi initiative out there, I think, trying to still find a way for Saddam Hussein to leave peacefully. I think that the only way an initiative like that may come to fruition, Aaron, is if -- if and when Saddam Hussein truly believes that it is, you know, one minute to midnight and he feels the cold gun barrel against his head. Only then I think will he contemplate somehow leaving. It will probably too late by then, but I wouldn't totally rule that out.

I think the second important diplomatic thing will be Tony Blair's meetings with the United States. Blair has come over here with a message that he wants to go quickly back to the U.N. to try to bring the U.N. at least into the humanitarian process in Iraq, maybe into the nation-building process afterwards. There's going to be a big debate over that, I think, within the administration and with -- and between the United States and Great Britain, but I think Blair is very eager to relegitimize or to legitimize the war through the U.N. process now that it's been launched.

BROWN: You have written extensively about how people might look at the success here, what the measures of success are. Why don't we talk a bit about that? A couple or three things that people ought to pay attention to.

FRIEDMAN: Well, obviously, we need to occupy Baghdad because you can't begin rebuilding the country unless you control the capital.

Secondly, Saddam Hussein has to be removed from the scene one way or another because Iraqis simply will not know or be free to express whatever they think as long as he is there and the perception is that his regime is still functioning.

You know, we have to hold Iraq together. There has to be -- the territorial integrity of the country has to be maintained if it's too be rebuilt. And, as I've said earlier, we need to produce an Iraqi government over the long haul that will be perceived as legitimate by Iraqis and by the -- by their neighbors and not as a Quisling of the United States. And therefore, we have to construct a consensual process in Iraq as we did help the Afghans do to produce an authentic Iraqi nationalist and hopefully a progressive nationalist in contrast to a dictatorial nationalist like Saddam Hussein to run the country after we're gone, which will hopefully be as soon as possible.

BROWN: Can that -- can the goals be met if the occupying force is not a U.N. occupying force and the administration, the governmental administration in place after the war is not a U.N. administration -- can it happen if it's just the Americans who are in charge?

FRIEDMAN: It's hard, very hard to predict yet. And I wouldn't want to go out on a limb there, because on the one hand, nation building is not something you want to do by committee. You know, they always say in the Middle East that a camel is a horse designed by a committee.

And at the same time, it would be great to have partners and allies for financial support and diplomatic cover. So how the administration is going to balance that I don't really know.

BROWN: And is it important when -- is it important that the next leader of Iraq, in your view, come from literally within the country, someone who's in the country now, or can it be someone from the outside, one of these dissident groups, anti-government groups on the outside? FRIEDMAN: In theory, obviously, it can come from people on the outside or the inside, and I don't know any of these people really, so I don't want to prejudge that someone who was abroad is by definition tainted.

But my gut tells me from, you know, having lived and worked in the Middle East that Iraqis themselves are more likely to view someone who lived through Saddam's tyranny, who emerges from within as -- and has not been tainted by contacts with, you know, some of the more, well, some of the opposition groups in America or Europe that maybe are viewed as too pro-American or too pro-Israeli -- someone like that who will emerge from inside, my guess is, is going to have a lot easier time developing respect and legitimacy in Iraq than someone who comes from the outside.

BROWN: Just two more areas quickly. Are you surprised at all? We were talking to someone from an Arab language paper the other day who said that across the Arab world they are sitting and watching this on television in much the same way that Americans are. Does it surprise you the interest across the Arab world that this has generated?

FRIEDMAN: Not in the least. We are -- we have just invaded the heart of the Arab-Islamic world and -- you know, one of the great capitals, one of its two epicenters, Egypt and Cairo being the other. And so this obviously is of great interest to people there. And they're watching for one thing -- what we build and how we build it.

BROWN: And finally, just you know, in a normal out in the field interview, I would say is there anything you want to say? You haven't said anything I didn't ask, you wish I asked. Is there any button you want to put on this we didn't get to in this conversation?

FRIEDMAN: You know, there's really -- one of the hard things following the war now for people is, you know, people want instant answers and certainly you've asked all the right questions.

But the fact is, until Saddam is gone, until we begin to see how Iraqis really feel, we're really not going to know what's inside this black box. But hopefully, we'll find more partners than less for building a decent Iraq and the only thing that's going to save us, Aaron -- the only thing that's going to redeem this thing is if we build an Iraq that Iraqis themselves and their neighbors look at and say, However you did it, you did improve the neighborhood.

BROWN: Tom, it's always good to talk to you. I hope I'll see you soon.

FRIEDMAN: Thanks so much.

BROWN: Thank you. Tom Friedman of "The New York Times".

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's a conversation we recorded earlier today. The night for us began with -- in northern Iraq where 1,000 or so -- now more than that, American soldiers have parachuted in, the very beginning of establishing a northern front in prosecuting this war. We were able to show you some grainy videophone pictures of that, and now we can show you a much cleaner view of how it looked when those 100, I think 97 young soldiers opened the door and started moving down -- moving down the line into the night sky.

One of the -- we talked -- literally had a conversation with First Sergeant Jason Geringer, if my memory is an good. He said, It all went pretty much as they had been training for months to do, that most of them slept on the way, about four hours, a little more -- four-hour flight. Most of them slept. The last 20 minutes or so, everybody packed up, got ready, hearts started beating, as you would imagined, and one by one, they jumped into the night sky, parachutes open, and everybody, he says, landed safely. They mustered up very quickly and they are now in the process of securing an airfield there that will set the stage for the northern front made necessary by the fact that the Turkish government would not allow Americans to come through there.

We'll take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've talked a lot about how eventually this -- when this battle is joined, if it's joined in a conventional way, the Republican Guard will be central to it.

We're joined from Austin, Texas tonight by retired Lieutenant General Paul Funk, who was commander of the 3rd Armored Division during the first Gulf War and we add, a former boss of General Wes Clark, as well.

General Funk, it's nice to have you with us.

Are you surprised at -- well, let me ask it slightly differently. Do you think the Iraqis learned from the experience of the first Gulf War and have set the stage a little differently this time?

LT. GEN. PAUL FUNK, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Yes, I certainly think they learned some lessons. I think they're doing some things that really have been done in warfare throughout history, and that is harassing supply lines, trying wherever they can to disrupt communications.

The real fighting hasn't really begun. We -- we know that. That's to come. And we'll just have to see.

BROWN: And these Republican Guard and the Special Republican Guard that we all imagine will be doing that fighting in the end game -- are they going to be the same soldiers, better soldiers or worse soldiers than the one you faced in '91?

FUNK: I would say they won't be all that much different, Aaron, and I'm really pleased, if I may compliment you, that you didn't call them the Elite Republican Guards because that -- that would connote that they're terrific soldiers or highly trained and skilled, and that they're -- they're not, if not invincible, certainly very, very tough to defeat.

They have been enforcers more than they've been soldiers. They're pretty well equipped. They get more training than the main line Iraqi units. But certainly, when we slammed into them at -- by the way, in a dust storm, much like what the guys have been going through in the last two days -- when we slammed into the Talatana (ph) Division at 5:13 in the evening on the 26th of February, they fought pretty hard. But even then they weren't nearly as quick as --as our soldiers. And in those kinds of fights, as we learned in the -- from the Arab-Israeli wars of an earlier era, the -- the gunner that fires fishes and most accurately throughout his force wins those kinds of fights. We won every one of them.

BROWN: General, just a final question. One thing -- I suppose if you're a soldier who -- you're being thrown out of Kuwait, you're an Iraqi soldier being thrown out of Kuwait, would it not be another thing if you're an Iraqi soldier trying to protect your capital -- might that not change the equation some?

FUNK: Sure, I think it's possible, without a doubt.

BROWN: General Funk, nice to have you on the program. I hope you'll come back one night. Thank you.

FUNK: You bet.

BROWN: Lieutenant General -- retired Lieutenant General Paul Funk. He was in Austin, Texas.

We take a break. On the other side, Daryn will update the headlines of the day and our coverage continues in a moment.

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