Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

U.S.: Iraq May Have Executed Prisoners of War

Aired March 27, 2003 - 01:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: I'm Daryn Kagan live in Kuwait City where it is just after 9:00 a.m. on Thursday morning. Let's take a look at the headlines.
A disturbing allegation topping our look at the news this hour. The Pentagon's No. 2 general telling CNN tonight that Iraq has, quote, "executed prisoners of war." General Peter Pace did not give details on that, but earlier Pentagon sources told CNN they were investigating reports that Iraqis had executed seven American army soldiers as they were surrendering. Iraq has said it will abide by the Geneva Conventions.

In northern Iraq, a big step forward in the effort to open up a northern front. You are looking at paratroopers from the 171st Airborne. They are dropping down to secure an airfield there. It will be used to bring in U.S. tanks and other armored vehicles. In southern Iraq, U.S. marines got a quarter-million gallons of fuel through the supply lines. Advanced units have reportedly been running low on fuel and some other supplies. Iraqi forces have continued to harass the more than 200-mile supply line between Kuwait and the U.S. troops closest to Baghdad.

In New York on Thursday, the U.N. will debate over Iraq, and that will continue.

On Wednesday, the ambassador from the Arab League accused the U.S. of intending to redraw the map of the Middle East. The discussion was opened to address humanitarian aid issues.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, an outspoken Senator and liberal iconoclast has died in Washington on Wednesday. The former New York senator and ambassador to the U.N. had been in poor health recently. Daniel Moynihan was 76.

And New York on Wednesday became the third state to ban smoking, just about every place someone might be working, that means, bars, betting parlors, bowling alleys and even company cars. The ban is intended to protect employees from secondhand smoke. New York City's ban kicks in on Sunday. And then the state's goes into effect on July. That would make New York, Delaware and California the toughest anti-smoking states in the nation.

And Aaron as I toss it back to you, I will tell you there is nothing like an anti-smoking ban anywhere here in Kuwait.

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: No.

KAGAN: Lots of cigarette smoke.

BROWN: No, there is not. Occassionally, they will say you can't smoke on this side of the chair, but on the other side of the couch you can. Do you have morning papers there?

KAGAN: I do have your morning papers. I picked a couple for you today. Getting ambitious, bringing the Arab papers out as well. This one is called "Al Watan." I picked it because of the picture on the front page. And this shows some of the aid making it into Safwan. And I, particularly, was interested in the story about you yesterday, about the humanitarian aid that was stuck here in Kuwait City. This is those very boxes, making it across the border. I should tell you, though, that some reports say that as people were taking this aid, they also were cheering on Saddam Hussein. So that is from the Arab paper. An English paper here for you, the Kuwait Times. This is an Aaron Brown picture I would say. It's a little offbeat. Blood and sand scenario.

BROWN: I know you mean that lovingly.

KAGAN: I do, a term of endearment. But you look for the different take. This pigeon apparently is a stowaway. It came with the 3rd Army Air Corps. They had a bunch of supplies sent over. The pigeon was in the box. And I don't know if you can tell here but it's a picture of the pigeon in the foreground and the soldier with his gun aimed.

BROWN: The pigeon better be careful, because they had those chickens over there they were going to use to be the canaries in the coal mine, chemical weapons. So, if I were that pigeon ..

KAGAN: Well, you know, we have those right here at CNN, Aaron. We have birds all over the hotel that are certainly not very purpose for it.

BROWN: Is that right? Daryn, thank you.

KAGAN: Yeah, your welcome.

BROWN: Daryn Kagan, we'll see you again in a half an hour. She updates the headlines of the day. This day or this broadcast at least for us began as we started to explore the opening of the northern front and the paratroopers who have come in as we were on the air. We had this description of their landing. Now we have some pictures of them on the ground that we can show you, and then we'll work back to how they got there. These pictures are just now coming in. These are American soldiers who have parachuted in. They were received by Kurdish forces, friendly Kurdish forces. This is a Kurdish controlled area. They were dropping into a safe zone, if you will, and they knew that. Though, nevertheless, I'm sure it's an exhilarating experience.

This looks like an air strip and they landed. And this has to all be built up some, and that's going to all take sometime to get all the equipment in they need. But you can see they do have some, and they are mustering up and they're organizing their things as they get down on the ground. They got down on the ground by parachute, as we said. And earlier tonight, we talked with CNN's Tom Nybo (ph) who was aboard one of the planes. He was strapped in. He's a producer, photographer of ours, and we turned him into a reporter to describe the video that he shot aboard that plane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM NYBO, CNN PRODUCER: I've never experienced anything like it. These guys, they are 19, 20 years old. This is their first time in a situation jumping into combat. In fact, it was the first time the brigade had done a combat jump since Vietnam. It was absolutely electrifying. They actually had to strap me in with my camera at the back of the plane. And all the guys were all gungho leading up to the jump. And then the day of the jump and the minutes leading up to it, I spoke with a number of them, and could you see a little bit of fear in each and every one of their eyes. And then when the doors opened, the entire cabin filled with air just swirling around. And they did the hands countdown and started shooting people out. I don't know if you really got a sense of it with the video, but it lasted about one minute. And they got all but three jumpers out. One guy got tripped up, and so the two jumpmasters couldn't go. So they got 97 guys out in about 60 seconds.

BROWN: I can tell you that we can see it even in the graininess of the video cam, we can see it really well. And you get a sense of how quickly it happened. They're almost running up to that door.

NYBO: It was really strange in the sense that it was complete darkness. As the minutes approached leading up to the jump, they actually cut the lights in the cabin. And I had to go to the night camera effect on the camera. They just had the red light to try to make it less visible to anyone on the ground that might try to target them. And so, the only lights we could see were the lights of towns on the ground. And the faint red light, and then everyone just shot out heading straight into darkness.

BROWN: See if we can rerack that and look at it one more time. Does the jumpmaster say anything that starts it all off? Is there a hand signal that's given? How do they know when to start?

NYBO: Well, basically it was a long flight. It was about a four-hour flight there. And the guys slept most of the way. And then the big moment is 20 minutes beforehand. Actually, about two hours beforehand, they rig up, they get everything on the lines, they get their rucks in front of them. Each man carries about a 60-pound rucksack and also an M-4 rifle. So, then, the countdown really begins at two hours. And at 20 minutes, everything really heats up. And at about ten minutes they switch it to the red light, and then they do the hand signals and then it's go. Yesterday, we actually went through a dry run on the plane. Went through it about three or four times so they knew the drill. The only difference was this was complete darkness. It was over northern Iraq, and this was the real thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Productive photographer Tom Nybo who shot those pictures, was on board that plane as those Americans began the establishment of a northern front that will take shape over the next days. This has been a difficult day in some respects, as you'll see when we come back, the reality on the ground is, of course, always that not just soldiers die but civilians die. That happened again today. We'll take a look at more of that, as our coverage continues. We need to take a short break first. This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As we said a moment ago, the reality of war is that civilians die. The reality of this war is enemy tactics are making those civilian casualties very difficult to avoid.

Here's CNN's Alessio Vinci.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. Marines in Iraq burying the body of a 6-year-old boy, his head facing Mecca according to Muslim tradition. A casualty of a new kind of war, killed along with his father as their vehicle approached a marine checkpoint at high speed. The man, marines say, was an armed combatant. Marines say they want to avoid killing civilians, but they pose a threat commanders say because Iraqi paramilitary groups recruit them to run scouting missions in U.S.-controlled territory, often accompanied by young children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of them have told us that they've been told you need to fight, if you don't fight, we'll do something to your family.

VINCI: The danger U.S. military officials say is that paramilitary groups are conducting guerrilla-style warfare against U.S. positions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We expect that, and we're ready for that. And they're very well trained in guerrilla warfare, but we're very well trained in anti-guerilla warfare as well. And if they want to come at us with that, we'll be waiting for them.

VINCI: When possible, suspects are cuffed and taken in for questioning. Or sometimes civilians are simply sent back from where they come from.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, no entry. Road closed on this one.

VINCI: And to minimize as much as possible contact between civilians and U.S. marines, the military is putting up signs in Arabic warning the local population to stay away and remain in their homes.

(on camera): Marines say they do not know how many civilians may have been killed so far, but they say they were surprised to see women and children in the streets of Nasiriya while the fighting was raging on. Clearly, said on commander, there is somebody among the Iraqis who is not concerned about the well-being of innocent civilians. Alessio Vinci, CNN, with the U.S. Marines in Nasiriya, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: General, we've talked a lot about the fact that this is not simply a military battle, that there is a political component at play in how the world sees the United states, because it will determine how Iraq is put back together and determine how other countries respond. Will the Arab -- do you believe the Arab world will believe that the tactics of the Iraqis themselves are causing some of these civilian casualties?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Possibly, but I think that Arab nationalism, ultimately, is going to be a very strong force in this, And remember, I mean, like it or not, I mean we are the invader of this country.

BROWN: Tom Friedman said when we talked to him, and I think I saw you nod at the time, I'm not sure, that it is perfectly possible for people to both dislike Saddam Hussein and dislike the Americans, that that's not that sort of thing can happen and does.

CLARK: I think it does too. I thought it was a very important point that he made, and we have to win the support of these people. Everybody said, well, we let them down in 1991 when we didn't go in there and support them. Maybe that's a factor. And they are afraid, there's no doubt about that, but if you looked at the picture of that young child that the "Time" magazine photographer showed.

BROWN:

CLARK: An hour or so ago. It was a very powerful picture, and it showed fear. And at that age, it wasn't politicized fear. It was just fear of the unknown, fear of the guns, fear of the noise, fear of something that's upsetting the adults in the family. And somehow we've got to communicate cross-culturally through that, if we're going to make a success of the operation. It's not just getting rid of Saddam. It's everything that happens afterwards and how we're perceived in the Islamic world.

BROWN: Somebody made the point, I think Chris Vorce (ph) the photographer made the point that the soldiers are prepared to fight there -- are prepared to fight. But they are not prepared, necessarily, to be there, to be culturally sensitive to their presence.

CLARK: That's right. It's asking so much to have soldiers do that. We've had the experience in Bosnia. We had the experience in Kosovo. We had the experience in Haiti. In every case, you know, we always come out and say, gee, you know, can't we do something better than this. People write books. Dana Priestly of the "Washington Post" wrote a book on this, talked about all the soldiers that are out there in places like Kosovo, and the enormous difficulties of coming to grips with the culture that they're in and what's expected of them. Hope we can do better on this one.

BROWN: I'm sure.

Lisa Rose Weaver is with the missile defense unit somewhere on the road to Baghdad. She is able to check in now. And we want to take advantage of these opportunities when they present themselves. Lisa, it's good to hear from you.

LISA ROSE WEAVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. I'm within about 100 miles of Baghdad in a very forward position for Patriot missile air defense in this war and, actually, in Patriot missile defense history. We're camped out in the desert flat land with other U.S. combat ground forces at the perimeter, so we do have a level of protection here. To the east just now just in the last few minutes, I can see and hear on the horizon tank battles between U.S. forces and the Iraqi Medina regiment, that's intermittent big booms and the occasional plume on the horizon done. Then to the north, also intermittent artillery or mortar rounds, I'm not really sure which.

This is an area that U.S. forces have been attacking for the last couple of days. The pattern of battle here is that Iraqi forces tend to push south toward where I am at night, to regain their position at night. And then in the daytime, the U.S. forces push them back. And this sort of back and forth has been going on for a couple of days - Aaron.

BROWN: To what degree is weather a factor? It's been a factor for the last couple of days.

WEAVER: Well, it happens to be a very clear day now. But it was very much a factor during our 12-hour journey up here. We had a very long convoy. Initially, we started out with several batteries of air defense batteries and the battalion command and some other support units. They dropped off at a more rear position. We continued forward to this position. And there was an incredible sand storm for the third day in a row. The atmosphere, it was actually red. It was like being on mars. Very, very low visibility. And it was a potentially dangerous situation.

We got word of an ambush not far from where we were on our way up. We spent quite a lot of the drive moving through some very dangerous territory. And, you know, with a missile defense convoy, you're not in hardened vehicles. We had some ground defense with us, but Patriot missile batteries are not designed for combat. That's not what they do. They defend. So when they move through these areas in long convoys with trucks and launchers that get stuck in the sand, and create delay after delay after delay where we sit there, it's potentially dangerous. Fortunately, fortunately, nothing happened, and we -- we were able to arrive safely - Aaron.

BROWN: Lisa, this may not be a fair question to ask of you, but let me ask it anyway. If you can't, feel free to walk away from it. You were describing that the Iraqis move at night, move forward at night, and the Americans push them back during the day. And what is confusing to me about that is simply I thought the Americans owned the night, that they had all the high tech tools to see at night and that the Iraqis don't. So any sense of why it's playing out that way? WEAVER: Well, what I just described is one small area in what is, obviously, a very large and complex battlefield across this part of the country. It just happens that military people I was talking to earlier today were describing the pattern of battle just immediately to the north of us. And by that, I mean a couple of miles, maybe not even. So yes, you're right. It wouldn't be right to say that this pattern applies to the whole country. It's just at this particular spot - Aaron.

BROWN: Got it, Lisa, thank you. Lisa Rose Weaver is with a missile defense group on the road to Baghdad. And she could hear a tank battle going on not far from where she is. And we focused a lot on these general, on the small -- the Fedayeen group, the insurrection and the asymmetrical nature of this. But, I guess, now that the weather's cleared, there is a more conventional battle or battles taking place out there, as well.

CLARK: Well, we certainly want to extend the range of the engagements. It's in our advantage to make it as ...

BROWN: Unconventional. (ph)

CLARK: Absolutely, because our weapons shoot longer. Our acquisitions better. We can bring air and attack helicopters in in good weather conditions. So you would expect that the battle would appear to be more conventional where you're outside of a built up area, and where you have an identifiable enemy vehicle. If they're driving around in pickups and buses and things like that, you have to really think about it before you engage something like that at 3,000 meters.

BROWN: But that's what they are doing.

CLARK: That is the problem.

BROWN: Right, they are doing that, that's exactly what they're doing. We've seen pictures. I remember, two or three nights ago, there was this pink truck with a gun on it. And it's a little tough for a pilot I guess, a jet pilot to pick that out as a military vehicle, and put a helicopter down there and you run some risk, right?

CLARK: That's right. And if it doesn't have a gun visible, you know, you have to go back to your rules of engagement, and some commander has to say, well, there's no visible weapons. Don't shoot it. When it comes right to you, you have to stop it. If it looks like it's obeying the normal rules, not speeding, not going passed you, there's nothing you can stop. You can interrogate them, you can search them, but you can't shoot them.

BROWN: It's a complicated place out there right now. We'll take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, a couple things are happening sort of quickly on the fly here. Back to northern Iraq first and Ben Wedeman. Our embeds and our correspondents in northern Iraq have been covering the opening of a northern front which has come through the air, parachute soldiers have dropped in by parachute. And we have some pictures of this now coming back. We see them on the ground. Let's bring Ben in. He's at where we are trying to feed this stuff out. Is that about right, Ben?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right. I haven't actually seen these pictures, but do know that these are troops from the 173rd Airborne Brigade normally based in Italy. They've arrived at an airstrip not far from Erbil. According to my colleague Brent Sadler, as many as a thousand of those troops are now on the ground. More expected. Others have arrived in other parts of the northern Iraq under Kurdish control. Now U.S. officers who are with this group have described the environment into which they are dropping or landing as semi permissive, that, of course, in plain English means it's a friendly environment. The Kurds very anxious, very happy to see American forces arriving in the north. This is probably one of the most hospitable corners of this region for American troops.

We've been hearing for weeks, even before the war began from officials that they were waiting for the day, a day like this when U.S. forces arrived. OF course, there's a good deal of frustration, at the same time, mixed with this relief at their arrival because, initially, the plan was to bring in as many as 62,000 U.S. troops with everything that normally comes with them, heavy artillery, tanks, armored personnel carriers, the whole nine yards. In this case, it's a little more difficult to bring that equipment in by air as opposed to over land through Turkey, which was the original plan. We are told, however, that some heavy equipment will be arriving in the north. Basically, the U.S. contingent in this area may in the end total as much as 5,000. That's far less than 62,000, but they will be back supplemented by, so to speak, more than 60,000 Kurdish fighters who may lack the heavy equipment, but they certainly, Aaron, do not lack the enthusiasm.

BROWN: Well, we see in the pictures, Ben, two helicopters. Those certainly weren't dropped in. What do you know about them?

WEDEMAN: Well, our understanding is that, obviously, U.S. special forces have been on the ground well before the arrival of these troops of the 173rd Airborne Brigade. And that those helicopters may belong to those U.S. special forces. Now, over the last weeks and months actually, there has been a contingent of somewhere between 20 and 30 U.S. special forces on the ground. Within the last three or four days, that number has been increased significantly. At the moment, really, the Americans are just getting their bearings in the north. Basically, the commander of U.S. forces in the north, United States Marine Corps Major General Pete Osman arrived here on Sunday. He gave a statement for the first time to the press on Monday.

So, really, it's a gradual process but certainly within the last few hours, it's really accelerated dramatically. Dramatically also, the acceleration of the bombardments of the frontline positions like the one we're at right now. This morning, four large bombs dropped on Iraqi army fortifications. The same happening yesterday in the area of Chamchamal, which is on the main road between Sulaymaniyah, under Kurdish control, and the city of Kirkuk under Saddam Hussein's control. So, in general, across the board, a dramatic escalation here in the north, Aaron.

BROWN: And it's all happened really in about, almost literally a 24-hour period. It was about this time last night that we first started to see the air come in.

WEDEMAN: Yes, certainly, basically, yesterday at this time, we were beginning to get reports, for instance, from our colleague Kevin Sites in Chamchamal who was on the scene when some very large explosions went off over some Iraqi fortifications there. And, basically, one thing after another, we've really begun to feel the American presence much more than we have in the last month. For instance, I was just driving through Irbil yesterday and we came across General Osman, the commander of U.S. forces in the north. And he's making the rounds in Irbil, speaking to various leaders, Kurdish leaders, Turkoman leaders, everyone here really to set the ground, to coordinate with all the groups, to get the ball rolling.

BROWN: They talk about preparing the battlefield. Some of that preparation obviously is political when the general's out there talking to the mayors and the city councilmen of one town or another. Ben, thanks.

WEDEMAN: Yes, he's ...

BROWN: I'm sorry.

WEDEMAN: Yeah, he's been busy really, yeah, he's been busy sort of working like a politician, not a military man. Just really to get everybody on board, to coordinate. It's important for him also to diffuse the intense Kurdish concerns that there would be a Turkish invasion. And really, until he could put those concerns to rest, the Kurds really could not focus, would not focus on the issue of confronting the Iraqi forces because, as we've seen in the last several weeks, their real concern was facing the Turks. For instance, I was at an arms market several weeks ago, people were buying up arms. And I said is it for the Iraqis? And they said, no, we want to fight the Turks. So, really, with that out of way, the focus definitely will be much more in this area and not on the Turkish-Iraqi boarder.

BROWN: Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman is up in the northern part of Iraq with a fabulous view of what is the beginning of the northern front.

We take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Aired March 27, 2003 - 01:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT: I'm Daryn Kagan live in Kuwait City where it is just after 9:00 a.m. on Thursday morning. Let's take a look at the headlines.
A disturbing allegation topping our look at the news this hour. The Pentagon's No. 2 general telling CNN tonight that Iraq has, quote, "executed prisoners of war." General Peter Pace did not give details on that, but earlier Pentagon sources told CNN they were investigating reports that Iraqis had executed seven American army soldiers as they were surrendering. Iraq has said it will abide by the Geneva Conventions.

In northern Iraq, a big step forward in the effort to open up a northern front. You are looking at paratroopers from the 171st Airborne. They are dropping down to secure an airfield there. It will be used to bring in U.S. tanks and other armored vehicles. In southern Iraq, U.S. marines got a quarter-million gallons of fuel through the supply lines. Advanced units have reportedly been running low on fuel and some other supplies. Iraqi forces have continued to harass the more than 200-mile supply line between Kuwait and the U.S. troops closest to Baghdad.

In New York on Thursday, the U.N. will debate over Iraq, and that will continue.

On Wednesday, the ambassador from the Arab League accused the U.S. of intending to redraw the map of the Middle East. The discussion was opened to address humanitarian aid issues.

Daniel Patrick Moynihan, an outspoken Senator and liberal iconoclast has died in Washington on Wednesday. The former New York senator and ambassador to the U.N. had been in poor health recently. Daniel Moynihan was 76.

And New York on Wednesday became the third state to ban smoking, just about every place someone might be working, that means, bars, betting parlors, bowling alleys and even company cars. The ban is intended to protect employees from secondhand smoke. New York City's ban kicks in on Sunday. And then the state's goes into effect on July. That would make New York, Delaware and California the toughest anti-smoking states in the nation.

And Aaron as I toss it back to you, I will tell you there is nothing like an anti-smoking ban anywhere here in Kuwait.

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: No.

KAGAN: Lots of cigarette smoke.

BROWN: No, there is not. Occassionally, they will say you can't smoke on this side of the chair, but on the other side of the couch you can. Do you have morning papers there?

KAGAN: I do have your morning papers. I picked a couple for you today. Getting ambitious, bringing the Arab papers out as well. This one is called "Al Watan." I picked it because of the picture on the front page. And this shows some of the aid making it into Safwan. And I, particularly, was interested in the story about you yesterday, about the humanitarian aid that was stuck here in Kuwait City. This is those very boxes, making it across the border. I should tell you, though, that some reports say that as people were taking this aid, they also were cheering on Saddam Hussein. So that is from the Arab paper. An English paper here for you, the Kuwait Times. This is an Aaron Brown picture I would say. It's a little offbeat. Blood and sand scenario.

BROWN: I know you mean that lovingly.

KAGAN: I do, a term of endearment. But you look for the different take. This pigeon apparently is a stowaway. It came with the 3rd Army Air Corps. They had a bunch of supplies sent over. The pigeon was in the box. And I don't know if you can tell here but it's a picture of the pigeon in the foreground and the soldier with his gun aimed.

BROWN: The pigeon better be careful, because they had those chickens over there they were going to use to be the canaries in the coal mine, chemical weapons. So, if I were that pigeon ..

KAGAN: Well, you know, we have those right here at CNN, Aaron. We have birds all over the hotel that are certainly not very purpose for it.

BROWN: Is that right? Daryn, thank you.

KAGAN: Yeah, your welcome.

BROWN: Daryn Kagan, we'll see you again in a half an hour. She updates the headlines of the day. This day or this broadcast at least for us began as we started to explore the opening of the northern front and the paratroopers who have come in as we were on the air. We had this description of their landing. Now we have some pictures of them on the ground that we can show you, and then we'll work back to how they got there. These pictures are just now coming in. These are American soldiers who have parachuted in. They were received by Kurdish forces, friendly Kurdish forces. This is a Kurdish controlled area. They were dropping into a safe zone, if you will, and they knew that. Though, nevertheless, I'm sure it's an exhilarating experience.

This looks like an air strip and they landed. And this has to all be built up some, and that's going to all take sometime to get all the equipment in they need. But you can see they do have some, and they are mustering up and they're organizing their things as they get down on the ground. They got down on the ground by parachute, as we said. And earlier tonight, we talked with CNN's Tom Nybo (ph) who was aboard one of the planes. He was strapped in. He's a producer, photographer of ours, and we turned him into a reporter to describe the video that he shot aboard that plane.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM NYBO, CNN PRODUCER: I've never experienced anything like it. These guys, they are 19, 20 years old. This is their first time in a situation jumping into combat. In fact, it was the first time the brigade had done a combat jump since Vietnam. It was absolutely electrifying. They actually had to strap me in with my camera at the back of the plane. And all the guys were all gungho leading up to the jump. And then the day of the jump and the minutes leading up to it, I spoke with a number of them, and could you see a little bit of fear in each and every one of their eyes. And then when the doors opened, the entire cabin filled with air just swirling around. And they did the hands countdown and started shooting people out. I don't know if you really got a sense of it with the video, but it lasted about one minute. And they got all but three jumpers out. One guy got tripped up, and so the two jumpmasters couldn't go. So they got 97 guys out in about 60 seconds.

BROWN: I can tell you that we can see it even in the graininess of the video cam, we can see it really well. And you get a sense of how quickly it happened. They're almost running up to that door.

NYBO: It was really strange in the sense that it was complete darkness. As the minutes approached leading up to the jump, they actually cut the lights in the cabin. And I had to go to the night camera effect on the camera. They just had the red light to try to make it less visible to anyone on the ground that might try to target them. And so, the only lights we could see were the lights of towns on the ground. And the faint red light, and then everyone just shot out heading straight into darkness.

BROWN: See if we can rerack that and look at it one more time. Does the jumpmaster say anything that starts it all off? Is there a hand signal that's given? How do they know when to start?

NYBO: Well, basically it was a long flight. It was about a four-hour flight there. And the guys slept most of the way. And then the big moment is 20 minutes beforehand. Actually, about two hours beforehand, they rig up, they get everything on the lines, they get their rucks in front of them. Each man carries about a 60-pound rucksack and also an M-4 rifle. So, then, the countdown really begins at two hours. And at 20 minutes, everything really heats up. And at about ten minutes they switch it to the red light, and then they do the hand signals and then it's go. Yesterday, we actually went through a dry run on the plane. Went through it about three or four times so they knew the drill. The only difference was this was complete darkness. It was over northern Iraq, and this was the real thing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Productive photographer Tom Nybo who shot those pictures, was on board that plane as those Americans began the establishment of a northern front that will take shape over the next days. This has been a difficult day in some respects, as you'll see when we come back, the reality on the ground is, of course, always that not just soldiers die but civilians die. That happened again today. We'll take a look at more of that, as our coverage continues. We need to take a short break first. This is CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As we said a moment ago, the reality of war is that civilians die. The reality of this war is enemy tactics are making those civilian casualties very difficult to avoid.

Here's CNN's Alessio Vinci.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. Marines in Iraq burying the body of a 6-year-old boy, his head facing Mecca according to Muslim tradition. A casualty of a new kind of war, killed along with his father as their vehicle approached a marine checkpoint at high speed. The man, marines say, was an armed combatant. Marines say they want to avoid killing civilians, but they pose a threat commanders say because Iraqi paramilitary groups recruit them to run scouting missions in U.S.-controlled territory, often accompanied by young children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of them have told us that they've been told you need to fight, if you don't fight, we'll do something to your family.

VINCI: The danger U.S. military officials say is that paramilitary groups are conducting guerrilla-style warfare against U.S. positions.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We expect that, and we're ready for that. And they're very well trained in guerrilla warfare, but we're very well trained in anti-guerilla warfare as well. And if they want to come at us with that, we'll be waiting for them.

VINCI: When possible, suspects are cuffed and taken in for questioning. Or sometimes civilians are simply sent back from where they come from.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right, no entry. Road closed on this one.

VINCI: And to minimize as much as possible contact between civilians and U.S. marines, the military is putting up signs in Arabic warning the local population to stay away and remain in their homes.

(on camera): Marines say they do not know how many civilians may have been killed so far, but they say they were surprised to see women and children in the streets of Nasiriya while the fighting was raging on. Clearly, said on commander, there is somebody among the Iraqis who is not concerned about the well-being of innocent civilians. Alessio Vinci, CNN, with the U.S. Marines in Nasiriya, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: General, we've talked a lot about the fact that this is not simply a military battle, that there is a political component at play in how the world sees the United states, because it will determine how Iraq is put back together and determine how other countries respond. Will the Arab -- do you believe the Arab world will believe that the tactics of the Iraqis themselves are causing some of these civilian casualties?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Possibly, but I think that Arab nationalism, ultimately, is going to be a very strong force in this, And remember, I mean, like it or not, I mean we are the invader of this country.

BROWN: Tom Friedman said when we talked to him, and I think I saw you nod at the time, I'm not sure, that it is perfectly possible for people to both dislike Saddam Hussein and dislike the Americans, that that's not that sort of thing can happen and does.

CLARK: I think it does too. I thought it was a very important point that he made, and we have to win the support of these people. Everybody said, well, we let them down in 1991 when we didn't go in there and support them. Maybe that's a factor. And they are afraid, there's no doubt about that, but if you looked at the picture of that young child that the "Time" magazine photographer showed.

BROWN:

CLARK: An hour or so ago. It was a very powerful picture, and it showed fear. And at that age, it wasn't politicized fear. It was just fear of the unknown, fear of the guns, fear of the noise, fear of something that's upsetting the adults in the family. And somehow we've got to communicate cross-culturally through that, if we're going to make a success of the operation. It's not just getting rid of Saddam. It's everything that happens afterwards and how we're perceived in the Islamic world.

BROWN: Somebody made the point, I think Chris Vorce (ph) the photographer made the point that the soldiers are prepared to fight there -- are prepared to fight. But they are not prepared, necessarily, to be there, to be culturally sensitive to their presence.

CLARK: That's right. It's asking so much to have soldiers do that. We've had the experience in Bosnia. We had the experience in Kosovo. We had the experience in Haiti. In every case, you know, we always come out and say, gee, you know, can't we do something better than this. People write books. Dana Priestly of the "Washington Post" wrote a book on this, talked about all the soldiers that are out there in places like Kosovo, and the enormous difficulties of coming to grips with the culture that they're in and what's expected of them. Hope we can do better on this one.

BROWN: I'm sure.

Lisa Rose Weaver is with the missile defense unit somewhere on the road to Baghdad. She is able to check in now. And we want to take advantage of these opportunities when they present themselves. Lisa, it's good to hear from you.

LISA ROSE WEAVER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. I'm within about 100 miles of Baghdad in a very forward position for Patriot missile air defense in this war and, actually, in Patriot missile defense history. We're camped out in the desert flat land with other U.S. combat ground forces at the perimeter, so we do have a level of protection here. To the east just now just in the last few minutes, I can see and hear on the horizon tank battles between U.S. forces and the Iraqi Medina regiment, that's intermittent big booms and the occasional plume on the horizon done. Then to the north, also intermittent artillery or mortar rounds, I'm not really sure which.

This is an area that U.S. forces have been attacking for the last couple of days. The pattern of battle here is that Iraqi forces tend to push south toward where I am at night, to regain their position at night. And then in the daytime, the U.S. forces push them back. And this sort of back and forth has been going on for a couple of days - Aaron.

BROWN: To what degree is weather a factor? It's been a factor for the last couple of days.

WEAVER: Well, it happens to be a very clear day now. But it was very much a factor during our 12-hour journey up here. We had a very long convoy. Initially, we started out with several batteries of air defense batteries and the battalion command and some other support units. They dropped off at a more rear position. We continued forward to this position. And there was an incredible sand storm for the third day in a row. The atmosphere, it was actually red. It was like being on mars. Very, very low visibility. And it was a potentially dangerous situation.

We got word of an ambush not far from where we were on our way up. We spent quite a lot of the drive moving through some very dangerous territory. And, you know, with a missile defense convoy, you're not in hardened vehicles. We had some ground defense with us, but Patriot missile batteries are not designed for combat. That's not what they do. They defend. So when they move through these areas in long convoys with trucks and launchers that get stuck in the sand, and create delay after delay after delay where we sit there, it's potentially dangerous. Fortunately, fortunately, nothing happened, and we -- we were able to arrive safely - Aaron.

BROWN: Lisa, this may not be a fair question to ask of you, but let me ask it anyway. If you can't, feel free to walk away from it. You were describing that the Iraqis move at night, move forward at night, and the Americans push them back during the day. And what is confusing to me about that is simply I thought the Americans owned the night, that they had all the high tech tools to see at night and that the Iraqis don't. So any sense of why it's playing out that way? WEAVER: Well, what I just described is one small area in what is, obviously, a very large and complex battlefield across this part of the country. It just happens that military people I was talking to earlier today were describing the pattern of battle just immediately to the north of us. And by that, I mean a couple of miles, maybe not even. So yes, you're right. It wouldn't be right to say that this pattern applies to the whole country. It's just at this particular spot - Aaron.

BROWN: Got it, Lisa, thank you. Lisa Rose Weaver is with a missile defense group on the road to Baghdad. And she could hear a tank battle going on not far from where she is. And we focused a lot on these general, on the small -- the Fedayeen group, the insurrection and the asymmetrical nature of this. But, I guess, now that the weather's cleared, there is a more conventional battle or battles taking place out there, as well.

CLARK: Well, we certainly want to extend the range of the engagements. It's in our advantage to make it as ...

BROWN: Unconventional. (ph)

CLARK: Absolutely, because our weapons shoot longer. Our acquisitions better. We can bring air and attack helicopters in in good weather conditions. So you would expect that the battle would appear to be more conventional where you're outside of a built up area, and where you have an identifiable enemy vehicle. If they're driving around in pickups and buses and things like that, you have to really think about it before you engage something like that at 3,000 meters.

BROWN: But that's what they are doing.

CLARK: That is the problem.

BROWN: Right, they are doing that, that's exactly what they're doing. We've seen pictures. I remember, two or three nights ago, there was this pink truck with a gun on it. And it's a little tough for a pilot I guess, a jet pilot to pick that out as a military vehicle, and put a helicopter down there and you run some risk, right?

CLARK: That's right. And if it doesn't have a gun visible, you know, you have to go back to your rules of engagement, and some commander has to say, well, there's no visible weapons. Don't shoot it. When it comes right to you, you have to stop it. If it looks like it's obeying the normal rules, not speeding, not going passed you, there's nothing you can stop. You can interrogate them, you can search them, but you can't shoot them.

BROWN: It's a complicated place out there right now. We'll take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, a couple things are happening sort of quickly on the fly here. Back to northern Iraq first and Ben Wedeman. Our embeds and our correspondents in northern Iraq have been covering the opening of a northern front which has come through the air, parachute soldiers have dropped in by parachute. And we have some pictures of this now coming back. We see them on the ground. Let's bring Ben in. He's at where we are trying to feed this stuff out. Is that about right, Ben?

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, that's right. I haven't actually seen these pictures, but do know that these are troops from the 173rd Airborne Brigade normally based in Italy. They've arrived at an airstrip not far from Erbil. According to my colleague Brent Sadler, as many as a thousand of those troops are now on the ground. More expected. Others have arrived in other parts of the northern Iraq under Kurdish control. Now U.S. officers who are with this group have described the environment into which they are dropping or landing as semi permissive, that, of course, in plain English means it's a friendly environment. The Kurds very anxious, very happy to see American forces arriving in the north. This is probably one of the most hospitable corners of this region for American troops.

We've been hearing for weeks, even before the war began from officials that they were waiting for the day, a day like this when U.S. forces arrived. OF course, there's a good deal of frustration, at the same time, mixed with this relief at their arrival because, initially, the plan was to bring in as many as 62,000 U.S. troops with everything that normally comes with them, heavy artillery, tanks, armored personnel carriers, the whole nine yards. In this case, it's a little more difficult to bring that equipment in by air as opposed to over land through Turkey, which was the original plan. We are told, however, that some heavy equipment will be arriving in the north. Basically, the U.S. contingent in this area may in the end total as much as 5,000. That's far less than 62,000, but they will be back supplemented by, so to speak, more than 60,000 Kurdish fighters who may lack the heavy equipment, but they certainly, Aaron, do not lack the enthusiasm.

BROWN: Well, we see in the pictures, Ben, two helicopters. Those certainly weren't dropped in. What do you know about them?

WEDEMAN: Well, our understanding is that, obviously, U.S. special forces have been on the ground well before the arrival of these troops of the 173rd Airborne Brigade. And that those helicopters may belong to those U.S. special forces. Now, over the last weeks and months actually, there has been a contingent of somewhere between 20 and 30 U.S. special forces on the ground. Within the last three or four days, that number has been increased significantly. At the moment, really, the Americans are just getting their bearings in the north. Basically, the commander of U.S. forces in the north, United States Marine Corps Major General Pete Osman arrived here on Sunday. He gave a statement for the first time to the press on Monday.

So, really, it's a gradual process but certainly within the last few hours, it's really accelerated dramatically. Dramatically also, the acceleration of the bombardments of the frontline positions like the one we're at right now. This morning, four large bombs dropped on Iraqi army fortifications. The same happening yesterday in the area of Chamchamal, which is on the main road between Sulaymaniyah, under Kurdish control, and the city of Kirkuk under Saddam Hussein's control. So, in general, across the board, a dramatic escalation here in the north, Aaron.

BROWN: And it's all happened really in about, almost literally a 24-hour period. It was about this time last night that we first started to see the air come in.

WEDEMAN: Yes, certainly, basically, yesterday at this time, we were beginning to get reports, for instance, from our colleague Kevin Sites in Chamchamal who was on the scene when some very large explosions went off over some Iraqi fortifications there. And, basically, one thing after another, we've really begun to feel the American presence much more than we have in the last month. For instance, I was just driving through Irbil yesterday and we came across General Osman, the commander of U.S. forces in the north. And he's making the rounds in Irbil, speaking to various leaders, Kurdish leaders, Turkoman leaders, everyone here really to set the ground, to coordinate with all the groups, to get the ball rolling.

BROWN: They talk about preparing the battlefield. Some of that preparation obviously is political when the general's out there talking to the mayors and the city councilmen of one town or another. Ben, thanks.

WEDEMAN: Yes, he's ...

BROWN: I'm sorry.

WEDEMAN: Yeah, he's been busy really, yeah, he's been busy sort of working like a politician, not a military man. Just really to get everybody on board, to coordinate. It's important for him also to diffuse the intense Kurdish concerns that there would be a Turkish invasion. And really, until he could put those concerns to rest, the Kurds really could not focus, would not focus on the issue of confronting the Iraqi forces because, as we've seen in the last several weeks, their real concern was facing the Turks. For instance, I was at an arms market several weeks ago, people were buying up arms. And I said is it for the Iraqis? And they said, no, we want to fight the Turks. So, really, with that out of way, the focus definitely will be much more in this area and not on the Turkish-Iraqi boarder.

BROWN: Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman is up in the northern part of Iraq with a fabulous view of what is the beginning of the northern front.

We take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com