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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

War in Iraq: Information Ministry Targeted in New Bombing

Aired March 28, 2003 - 00:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Daryn, how are you today? And do you have newspapers yet?
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: I do have newspapers. Do you want to do that now or do you want to do that later?

BROWN: Do one now, do one later.

KAGAN: All right. Let's split it up here.

Let's -- all right. Let's start with "Kuwait Times." Their headline today, "Key Karbala Crash Ahead". Interesting -- I think the stories today in the papers, Aaron are the pictures. This picture right here showing a U.S. Marine helping evacuate some wounded Iraqis. This is the picture -- and I only show it to you because the faces are blacked out. That caused so much controversy about Al-Jazeera with the British soldiers showing 00 this was a picture that was shown on Al-Jazeera. It showed their faces when they first showed the video. On the newspaper, they blacked out the pictures.

And also, big debate here in town -- should schools open up again tomorrow? The school week here begins on Saturday. The kids in Kuwait have been off for a week because of the war. They are scheduled to go back tomorrow. It's like being Monday morning here in Kuwait City. However, a lot of the schoolmasters and the teachers have lost the country, and so there's a debate -- does school go on or does it not?

That's the news from here in Kuwait City.

BROWN: Thank you. A friend of mine told me the other day that -- I guess that last week that her daughter asked her if the war started, would she have to go to school? So I guess kids think about these things in those terms.

Thank you very much and we'll see you the rest of the way this evening with us or this morning.

It's three minutes past midnight, so it's Friday morning now in the Persian Gulf and in the East Coast of the United States as well. We realize some of you may be just now joining us. In all parts of the country, particularly in the West. We'll add a little bit to the headlines that Daryn just reported and give a broader look at the day, the beginnings of which on the northern front.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): As week two of the war began, thunderous explosions near the Ministry of Information rocked Baghdad. They seem to be the strongest in days.

Preparation perhaps for what the American administration knows are crucial times ahead just outside the Iraqi capitol.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Republican Guard forces are ringing Baghdad, some 40, 50 miles away from it. And very likely that will be some of the toughest fighting that will occur. And that's yet ahead of us.

BROWN: On the ground, we can finally see some of those dots on the map. These are the outskirts of Najaf, a city where the Army's 7th Calvary took some of its heaviest fire. Peaceful enough for the moment, but just as in other parts of Iraq, the harassment by Iraqi irregulars was frightening.

SGT. TODD WOODHALL, U.S. ARMY, 7TH CAVALRY: With my hat just closed (ph) closed, a little scared. I had to do it a couple of time, reach in and talk to the man upstairs to say, Help out a little. I don't know if we can do all of this ourselves but it worked.

BROWN: As for those maps, here's what it looks like now:

In the west, the Army's Airborne and 3rd Infantry continue to advance towards Baghdad.

Meantime, the Marines are encountering tough resistance as they head toward the capitol in the eastern part of the country. And a sizable American force, those paratroopers you watched land last night are now in the north.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Follow me.

BROWN: The Army's 173rd Airborne Brigade began to set up defensive perimeters outside in abandoned Iraqi airfield in the Kurdish-controlled area of the north. At the opposite end of the country, in Basra, the British army is encircling the city. Refugees are pouring out to escape the fighting.

More food and water distributed today, but even with better crowd control, the scenes were chaotic. But for pure public relations' value, it is hard to beat this picture. An American tank flattening a portrait of Saddam Hussein.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Broad look at the day.

We'll start to fill in some of the pieces, beginning at the Pentagon. Chris Plante has the late-night duty.

Chris, good morning now to you. And the secretary of defense talked about more troops heading to the theater. A lot more troops.

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right.

The announcement came out today that -- an almost startling number, a hundred house more U.S. troops would be going to the area, but it requires a little bit of clarification.

We knew that the 4th Infantry Division, which is going to be 20, 25,000 troops was going to be going. They originally were going to go into Turkey and open up the northern front coming into Iraq from the north. That didn't happen because of the situation with the Turkish parliament there. The northern front is being opened, as you just explained in your piece, beginning with the paratroopers taking the airfield there.

Once the 4th Infantry Division, another 20,000 troops, gets there and meets up with their equipment in Kuwait, they will probably join the fight. They start leaving on Sunday from Fort Hood in Texas, and it will take some time for them to get there. You won't see all 20,000 of them arriving at once. It'll take some time, but by probably the second week in April, they'll be up and running in Kuwait and ready to go.

Not clear now whether still fighting go going on or not. Certainly the hope is not. And the rest of the troops, the additional 80 or so 1,000 troops are following troops that -- that quite honestly got their deployment orders some time ago. They're now getting their timetable.

A lot of these troops hopefully will at least be going in to relieve troops already there after the battle is over with -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. Chris, stay by. Let me bring in General Clark.

These troops, General, that we're talking about now, were not really supposed to fight the war. They were supposed to keep the peace. Is it realistic -- I know you don't want to make lots of predictions -- is it realistic that by the second week in April, the fighting will be over?

RETIRED GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FMR. NATO SUPREME COMMANDER, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's hard to say, Aaron.

I think it -- it's -- we're going to find out in the next two or three days if we get the information from the Command, about the effectiveness of air against the Republican Guards.

BROWN: Yes.

CLARK: If what Miles O'Brien showed us is accurate, if the Air Force and others have much more information, then that -- if we're -- if air power's effectively applied against, well then the results will be clear. It's possible it could be over.

My guess -- my guess is 60/40 as it won't be.

BROWN: But the idea that it might be is not out of the question? CLARK: Correct. I wouldn't give up on that idea yet.

BROWN: OK. And what we lack besides knowledge of the plan, for goodness sakes, is we don't have the assessment. We don't have enough information. We -- the Pentagon doesn't -- well, they may have it. I don't know. We certainly don't have the information to reach a conclusion as to how effective the air has been to this point.

CLARK: And, of course, we don't -- also, Aaron, we don't know about what is really going on with Saddam and his chain of command, his command and control. We don't know if this robust or if it's brittle. We don't know how much has been taken out. We don't know if it's really a last gas with desperation or whether this is just the opening way.

BROWN: But Michael...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry. I think it was Michael Gordon last night who said that these regimes -- no, it wasn't. It was Thomas Friedman who said they look very strong until they break and they -- they really crack. You dealt, to a certain extent, with something like this in the Balkans, didn't you?

CLARK: I did.

BROWN: When it goes, it's gone.

CLARK: It was. But Milosevic and Saddam Hussein are so entirely different...

BROWN: OK.

CLARK: ...that it's difficult draw a direct comparison.

BROWN: OK, I can accept that. General, thanks. Wes Clark in Los Angeles tonight. In between other commitments, he's spending time with us, too.

If you were us at the beginning of the program at 10:00 Eastern time last night, it was one of the more remarkable hours or 90 minutes of this coverage, as 1,000 or so American Airborne soldiers floating down to Earth, parachuting to begin to form a northern front. We showed you how it played out last night.

Brent Sadler was on the ground literally as it was happening. He was talking to some soldiers and he joins us again now to update us on what's happened since that point -- Brent.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A daring mission to northern Iraq for American troops under the cover of darkness.

Ten waves of paratroopers from the 173rd Airborne Brigade, jumping in batches, a hundred at a time.

They landed in friendly territory controlled by Iraqi Kurds. A breathtaking assault by a thousand men, precision timed, and safely accomplished. No shots fired.

We found them at daybreak, assembling in groups scattered across the drop zone. No southern Iraqi desert sands here in the rugged mountains of Iraqi Kurdistan.

They landed on a carpet of grass and soft earth. Men and equipment, caked in mud, following days of heavy rain.

(on camera): Good morning, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Sergeant, Brent Sadler from CNN, good morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Geringer (ph).

SADLER: Welcome to Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

SADLER: How it was? Tell me please -- the parachute drop overnight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The parachute drop was. It -- everything went according to plan. Planes came in, dropped us off just like how we normally do business.

SADLER: A drop from 1200 feet, a rush of adrenaline and the crack of an opening parachute before hitting the ground. That's how these troops described their dramatic entry into the war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're floating out there pitch black, you know. You don't know what it expect. You're just waiting to hit the ground and , you know, put your weapon in operation and get ready to go.

SADLER (voice-over): Parachutes are quickly packed, weapons cleaned and made ready. But its slow going at first, across this soggy plain. Nearby, more U.S. Special Forces from arrived, flown in by helicopter. They start to secure this vital landing strip. Follow-up forces and heavy equipment will surely flow through here.

The paratroopers have made an unchallenged start to their deployment. But they still dig in, just in case with friendly gestures.

Brent Sadler, CNN, Heria, northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So that is how it all finished off, that in which we started last night.

We have still tonight -- we'll talk with Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota, who is the only member of the Senate, and I think the only member of Congress. But I am sure the only member of Senate with a child in -- a son in the war. We'll be talking with him.

We have much more. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We spoke earlier today with Tim Johnson, who's a Democratic senator from South Dakota. And his involvement in all of this is not just that of a senator. He has a young son, Brooks Johnson, who is a sergeant in the army. There is a picture of Brooks. He's in the 101st, and he tonight is somewhere out in Iraq.

We talked to the senator late this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator, there are personal questions, I suppose and policy questions. Let's start with the personal. Tell us about your son.

SEN. TIM JOHNSON (D), SOUTH DAKOTA: Well, I just got an e-mail a few minutes ago from him. It's the first one we've had in quite a few days now. They're out in the desert, in Iraq. He said they have gone through a sandstorm, rain and mud.

So far, he isn't too impressed with the countryside, he tells me.

BROWN: But he's OK? He's in good shape?

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: He's OK. He's in good shape. His spirits seem to be good and that was -- it was great to hear from him that way.

BROWN: He's a sergeant, correct?

JOHNSON: He's a staff sergeant in the 101st Airborne.

BROWN: And he was in Afghanistan as well as I recall?

JOHNSON: Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and now Iraq. It's been a tough temple that he's been keeping up.

BROWN: Is it at all difficult for you to separate the personal from the policy decisions that you have to make?

JOHNSON: You just have to do that.

I talked to Brooks prior to the resolution authorizing force, and his view was, he'll do the best job that he can as a president -- as a soldier. I will have to do the best that I can do as a senator. And that's really what you have to do. You cannot be casting public policy votes based on personal concerns of security and safety.

BROWN: Is there -- well, when you see -- well, there was big protests in new York today. There have been protests all over the place. When you see them, given the unique position -- truly unique position have you, what do you see?

JOHNSON: Well, I see the strength of America. I see people speaking out, expressing their views and that's what this is what this is all about -- to make sure that our country retains that right and hopefully that other countries can transition into a democracy, into a country that respects human rights, human liberties and that includes the freedom of speech.

BROWN: What does it say that you are the only senator with a son over there? Does it say anything about the country, about the make-up of the military at all?

JOHNSON: I think it does somewhat. I think that Representative Rangel had a point that things have changed a lot in the last decade or so, that we don't have a lot of members of Congress whose kids are in the military.

I think you've got a lot of middle-class kids out there, but it's probably through upper middle class, wealthy families are not sending their kids into the military any longer and I think that that's a -- that's a negative. On the other hand, I don't think bringing back conscription is the answer. I don't think that is where we are going to go.

So what we do need to do it honor and respect the people who choose to serve in our military to make and sure that they're treated well, because they're doing a job that frankly not a lot of other Americans want to perform.

BROWN: And what is your assessment of the job as it's played out over now just a week?

JOHNSON: Well, I think we have the greatest military in the world. Obviously, there will be good days, and there will be days that aren't so good. And we just have to hope and to pray that this military action is quick, decisive, that there is a minimum of losses on every side and that we can move on.

BROWN: It's been over the last couple of days, a lot of sort of chippy, sort of criticism at the plan, that perhaps they underestimated the Iraqis. What's your view on that?

JOHNSON: Well, I had a lot of differences with the White House in the lead-up to this war relative to its diplomacy. But at this point I don't think we need a lot of senators serving as armchair generals. I think we've got the best military minds in the world at hand there. We're only a week or so into this conflict and I think we've got to rely on the judgment of their tactics.

BROWN: Given -- given your unique situation, do you spend a lot of time watching the coverage? Have you had a chance to even see your son out there yet?

JOHNSON: Well, I try to take a look at CNN whenever I can. Obviously, there are a lot of other things going on, but I try to keep track of things as the day goes on. My wife does as well from her place of work and when we go home in the evening.

So we do follow this and obviously it is an unsettling matter, because we're on the one hand, we're grateful to know what's going to in a real-time basis. On the other hand there's the realization that at any moment, there could be an announcement that would be truly catastrophic to our family, or to other families.

And so it's with some interest but also some trepidation, frankly, that we do keep track of things on the television.

BROWN: Senator, in the way we feel about all of the families, we wish you nothing but good luck and your son nothing but a safe return, and we appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.

JOHNSON: Thank you, aaron.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator Tim Johnson, Democratic -- a Democratic senator from South Dakota.

As you look at Baghdad, one of the issues in the senator's campaign last November was whether he was strong enough on the military. His Republican opponent said he was not. They ran a lot of ads about that. The senator, the only senator with a son who is in service in the Persian Gulf tonight.

In Baghdad, the sirens have been sounding again. That smoke, though, that you see from the center moving left on your screen is not new. We have seen that for several hours, and is likely the result of bombing that occurred around 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning Baghdad time.

Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, really for the last three days on our watch, the -- one of major story lines has been the development of a northern front. It's still in its early stages. It started two nights ago.

You'll recall that right about this time in fact, when correspondents Kevin Sites and Ben Wedeman started to say they were seeing jets overhead and those jets were hitting Iraqi positions on a mountaintop. And then the next day of course, yesterday the paratroopers came in. Clearly, the paratroopers were a welcome site in the sky to the Kurdish forces who have been waiting and waiting for the Americans to come in to establish that northern front.

Here's how some of that looked to CNN's Ben Wedeman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A coalition warplane glints in the early morning sunlight and goes in for a kill, pounding Iraqi Army frontlines in northern Iraq. When the bombing ended, nerves were still on edge. At the sound of a plane, Iraqi soldiers scurry for cover, others dig in deep for the next strike.

Less than a mile away, Kurdish fighters in the village of Kalak keep a close eye on their old foes and wait. They had confidently predicted that once the shooting began, the Iraqis would come down the hill with hands up. That hasn't happened. American propaganda leaflets and bombs not quite enough for the Iraqis to convince the Iraqi to call it quits.

(on camera): News of the arrival of American forces in the north welcome here. Kurdish leaders have announced that now that the Americans are here, it is safe for people to return to the frontline towns and villages they had fled from. But here in Kalak, with Iraqi positions right over the town, it may be a little too early for that.

(voice-over): Despite the obvious danger, some have returned. Others now entertain hopes they will be reunited with friends and relatives cut off my war.

My family is from here, but my tribe is on the other side under the Iraqi regime's control, says Kurdish Corporal Fahik Azzi (ph). We hope we can put an end to all of this.

Shop owner Ahmed Aska (ph) just wants to get back to business. The sooner the Iraqi soldiers leaves this area, he says, the better. A sentiment one hears along the northern front with mounting confidence.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Kalak, northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll have more our of northern Iraq before morning is done.

We try and spend time every morning taking a look at some of media issues that this -- the coverage of the extraordinary coverage of the war has created. Don Hewitt, who pretty much was there at the beginning of television talked about that last night with some excitement. I'm not sure we will get the same from our next guest.

Michael Wolff writes media criticism for the -- for "New York" magazine. It is often sharp, and we're glad to see him. He's in Qatar of all places.

Michael, nice to see you. Both newspapers...

MICHAEL WOLFF, NEW YORK MAGAZINE COLUMNIST: How are you, Aaron?

BROWN: I'm fine, thank you, sir.

Both newspapers and television, if you had to put a lead on how you would think the coverage has been, what would it be?

WOLFF: I guess the lead would be murky, muddled. I think end of the day, nobody knows what's going on. I think that we're certainly -- we're all sitting here and we're saying -- saying, Well on the one hand, it could be that victory is certain. On the other hand, it could be that this is an utter fiasco.

BROWN: Who is saying this could be an utter fiasco? Where are you hearing that?

WOLFF: Virtually all of us sit -- virtually all of us sitting here in -- Qatar are saying that's a possibility. At the same time, we think, OK, they may be right. There may be certain victory ahead of us. But there's no certainty of this. There's no real, real, real believability here.

I mean, I hesitate to return to the words credibility gap, but there does seem to be a reality discrepancy.

BROWN: And where do you see the reality discrepancy? I mean, where is that -- that's coming from the briefers or is that in the way the story is being reported? Where is that?

WOLFF: Well, for one of the thing, when you're in -- when you're in a place like -- like Qatar, you're surrounded by the international press. And one of the interesting things is how at odds the U.S. press is from -- from the press throughout the world.

I mean, the -- the story that -- that's -- that's being told in the -- in the international press is markedly different know that the story that's being told by the briefers in Qatar or by -- by what turns up on the American networks.

BROWN: And to finish that thought, the story that the international press is reporting is one -- is what?

WOLFF: Of certainly potential quagmire.

I mean, I think what we're look at here is, I mean, very clearly that the expectation was of a very, very quick war. And the reality is, certainly seems to be something much different.

BROWN: Would -- I am not sure this is a fair question. I will ask it anyway. Do you think a week into the war it is fair for anyone to write that the country or the coalition could be facing a quagmire? Is there any evidence a week and a day in that supports that?

WOLFF: Well, no, probably not.

As a matter of fact, you know, one of the things that I can, I mean, obviously recall is that the first week in Kosovo was also very bad and also people said -- said, You know, this is a -- this is a big problem. It's -- none of -- none of the expectations are being realized here. And then -- and then in the course of really about 24 hours, it all tumbled in -- in the direction that the administration had anticipated.

So is that the same situation as now? Yes, it's possible that virtually any day we will get up and suddenly it will all go our way.

I think, though, that -- that in -- at this moment in time, the feeling is that -- that -- that the expectations, what we were led to expect would happen here is so at odds with in fact what is happening that -- that-- that everybody here and we're kind of waiting for, you know, -- we're just sort of ciphers. We're waiting to be -- to be told to sort of -- to be given the convincing -- a convincing demonstration that this is all going well. And we're certainly not getting that.

And, as I say, being out in the field here and being -- being exposed to -- to these -- these information currents that -- that come from many other -- many other parts of -- of the world, you're left thinking Boy, you know, this could be -- I mean, there's really trouble out there.

BROWN: Well, it's certainly -- there are certainly, it seems from our reporting there are pockets of difficulty and that the things perhaps were not as rosy as -- as the political argument a month ago made it seem it would go.

WOLFF: When -- when -- when you're in a situation and when you can't get answers to -- to basic questions...

BROWN: Like?

WOLFF: How many people are dead.

BROWN: Yes.

WOLFF: How -- what is a realistic timetable? I mean, when people start saying -- I mean, the president said -- said yesterday, and this is certainly echoed by the briefers here, you know, we will -- we will fight as long as necessary.

Well, you know, I mean that's -- first that's patently untrue. You can't fight as long as necessary. You don't have a -- you don't have a free reign here. At some point, people are going to say, Hey, this has gone on too long. This is not worth about it.

So it's those kinds of things that -- that -- that you have to step back. You find yourself stepping back and saying, OK, what's the real meaning here? And the real meaning is probably that -- that everybody's panicking a little. It's off-script.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Good to talk to you. Have an interesting time in Qatar. And hopefully, we'll talk to when you you get back. Michael Wolff, who writes for "New York" magazine...

WOLFF: Great.

BROWN: ...writes media criticism and is out there watching media and doing some criticizing, as it turns outs.

We'll take a break. Daryn Kagan updates the headlines and our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT) BROWN: A couple of headlines from here to show that you, that have caught our eye.

Start with -- I think the only foreign paper I think that we're going today -- "The Guardian," not surprisingly, they put the Blair -- Mr. Blair-Mr. Bush meeting on the front page. "We are Working to Make the World More Peaceful" is the headline.

But up on top, if we can -- if I can angle this in a way that you can see it. I'm sorry. It's an exclusive interview with Hans Blix. Remember him? "Nothing I could have said from the end of January would have stopped the war," says the Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector to "The Guardian" one of the British papers.

Now, a bunch of American papers. And no -- that I can find at least looking through them -- no consistent theme.

"Miami Herald" -- "Skies Open for Bombs at Baghdad" and down at the bottom on the left, American Airlines may file for bankruptcy next week. Talk about a story and particularly in Miami, a lot of American fights roll out of there, would have been a huge story, way above the fold tucked away in the corner.

That is also a story in the "Dallas Morning News," also down in the corner, "Bankruptcy Buzz on AMR," American Airlines is Win. But up at the top, "Regroup: Resupplies" is the way the "Dallas Morning News." Everyone still leads, as you would expect, we're only a week into it for goodness sakes, still leads with the war.

"Cincinnati Enquirer" was very straight away. "Sandstorms Retreat, Planes Renew Strikes on Baghdad." They just took everything they went on, put it in the headline and stuck it on the front page with that -- with that picture of that huge strike in Baghdad that occurred just a few hours ago.

We want to mention Newsday, "New York Newsday," one of the tabloid newspapers in New York. There's their headline: "Deadly Dilemma," and two "Newsday" reporters -- a reporter and a photographer are missing over there. I think all told right now there are about five reporters who are missing, and we hope that, like the soldiers, they all come home.

How we doing on time? OK. Woops -- "The Detroit News" headline: "U.S. Slowdown".

So again, there's just no consistent theme in -- in the way the story's being reported by newspapers around the country. And in some respects, I think that's - there's just no major story going. There's all these little -- not so little stories. There's the fighting in the south. There's the new front in the north. There's the this and the that. But it was hard if you were a newspaper headline writer and you got to come up with one headline to sum it up, it's not easy to do.

And so "The Charlotte Observer" of Charlotte, North Carolina simply went "Bush, Blair Say Win is Certain, Not Quick," and they put a picture -- a big picture from the war zone on the front page. But their main story is the president and Mr. Blair's meeting.

I thought there was something else I wanted to say. Now, here is -- not doing that one.

"The Chicago Sun-Times" is the last one that we will do for you tonight. "U.S. in Fight For As Long as it Takes" is "The Chicago Sun- Times" headline. And we -- regular NEWSNIGHT viewers know, we always describe the way they do the weather in the "Chicago Sun-Times." Not cloudy, not rainy, not this, not that they come up with a different adjective and the weather tomorrow will be relentless. I have no idea what relentless weather is, but I guess that's why you buy the paper. You pay your 35 cents, you buy the paper, you open it up and you find out what the weather is going to be.

Martin Savidge is on the videophone. He's traveling, as I recall, with the Marine unit. I haven't talked to him in a some time.

Marty, it's good to hear from you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to start on you, Marty, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron.

Right now, we are traveling in a military convoy in southern Iraq headed towards central Iraq. We're with the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines. This is me in the back seat, obviously, seen through the rearview mirror. We're riding up front with what is called a CAT team -- that's a combined armor anti-tank team. These are the teams that have right now been designated to deal with these Fedyaeen attack.

They're a highly mobilize force. They're using Humvees. These are the military jeeps. And they're heavily armed. You've Tow anti- tank missiles. You also .50 caliber machine guns that are mounted on the tops of those and what they call a mark-manned team, which is a fuller automatic grenade launcher.

We are running ahead of the main convoy. They are a security force. Their idea and their roll is to go out there and basically seek out the enemy. And in this case, the Marines are calling the enemy the Fedayeen, which are these paramilitary units that have been harassing the supply lines, part of what has been slowing down the overall military effort.

They are taking these attacks very seriously. They don't say that they are a major impairment, but they are trying to deal with them as best they can. So that's why they're using a highly mobile force with a lot of weaponry.

These guys run in front. The idea is they're essentially the early warning system. They take incoming fire. They'll immediately return fire and they will try to do in a very heavy way. You are just looking at some of the detrim that you find along the route here, American vehicles that her have been damaged or abandoned.

But this is how they are dealing with the Fedayeen right now, running these mobile fast units along the convoy route hoping to make contact. If they do make contact, very willing to return fire -- Aaron.

BROWN: Two questions. One, are you seeing a lot of abandoned vehicles along the road?

SAVIDGE: Well, a lot compared to the tremendous amount of equipment you see pouring out from northern Kuwait, no. But they are become more and more a frequent site.

It can be for any number of reasons: mechanical breakdowns -- the stress of long-distance travel on some of this equipment is taking its toll. It also can be due to damage. When you have nighttime convoys, that driving under those condition, difficulty to the night vision goggles. They have accidents. And then some of it can also be the result of direct fire. I don't believe much of it is really the result of direct fire. It's usually mechanics or accidents.

They strip the vehicles down. If they can't get it going again, if they can't tow it, they'll take everything they can, and leave it to the side of the road and someone else will deal with it, Aaron.

BROWN: And Marty, did -- did this unit expect to have to deal with this counter insurgency, if that's the right way to frame it. Is that what they anticipated they'd have to do?

SAVIDGE: No. No, they didn't anticipate they have to do that at all. They thought they were going to have a very different mission, but obviously once the ground war began and only about two days afterward, the guerrilla tactics began to arrive and of course, as you know, that supply line from northern Kuwait is getting longer and longer every day and as it gets longer, it also gets potentially more and more a danger as far as being struck.

So this is a new duty that they've been given. And it is a duty that they may have to continue for some time longer. It's also a potentially dangerous one because they have to go out into villages and into the towns and actually seek out the enemy. You're not going to look for a major fighting force. You 'e looking for basically opposition forces, paramilitary units that are going to hit and run. It's difficult to deal with, as the U.S. has found in many previous wars.

BROWN: Marty, stay with us. I'm going to bring in General Clark into this.

General, this is -- this is the plan. This is flexibility in action, isn't it?

CLARK: It is. It absolutely is.

But, you know, with all respect to the Marines here, I think who are doing a heroic job here, Aaron, they're engaging in something that we would term sustained land combat. And I know this from reading between the lines of some of the dispatches from the Marines -- they have a particular logistics problem because the Marine Corps hasn't been -- hasn't been organized for that kind of long-distance logistics support that 1st Battalion 7th Marines is securing right now.

BROWN: That the Army -- the Army and the Marines are set up to do different kinds of missions, and, therefore, the logistical operations of the two are set up differently?

CLARK: They are, yes.

The four structure of the Army is designed for sustained land combat. This operation -- Baghdad, according to some reports, will be the greatest distance inland a significance Marine force has ever fought and penetrated. And I know the Marines are great fighters; they want to be on this fight. But that is a challenge and this diversion of this battalion to do rear area security, essentially guarding these supply lines, of course does take away from the fox hole strength at the front.

BROWN: Marty, we saw a helicopter fly overhead just a moment ago, so there's obviously that component also. Are they looking for these Fedayeen, or are they waiting for them to show themselves?

SAVIDGE: Essentially, they're set up right now just in case they show themselves. This is not an active search to find them. This is basically convoy security. You can see how the Humvees are sequentially faced across the roadway here with their Tow missiles and with the heavy machine guns pointed in opposite directions so they can cover both sides of the road as they move.

The idea is to move this -- move this battalion forward. We're not sure exactly how far, but pushing forward northern -- into northern Iraq. And then from there, they will probably establish some sort of temporary base, and begin to go out and try to make contact search in the villages and find the home operating bases for these Fedayeen units.

So, today's moving day, but even when you have something as relatively benign as a convoy movement, nothing is taken for granted and they have found that they have been attacked before. So they're using every caution.

BROWN: And are they just moving across the desert terrain, or is there some -- something approaching a road that they're driving on?

SAVIDGE: This is a road actually. It's a highway, or at least what was the basis for a highway.

It fluctuates dramatically. There are times when you can be riding on what is a very modern -- looks like back in the USA-type of highway system and then other types, for whatever the route has chosen, we go off into the desert, off into the hard terrain.

But right now, this is a very -- at least there's the basic elements of a road and it's a road that's going north.

BROWN: General, probably should have asked this a couple of minutes ago. If the Marines aren't set up to do this sort of thing, why not send an Army unit to do this sort of thing? CLARK: Well, that -- that's a question the planners would have to answer, and obviously with the right augmentation, the Marines can do something. They do have these amtraks that are very large armored personnel carrier. They're not the same as Bradley. The light armored vehicles not the same definition protection as a Bradley.

But that's decision that was made for whatever reasons it was made. And so now we're going to make this work, and I'm confident we will.

But this is all part of this move north and working all of the supply line. It's all part of what we were talking about the, night, Aaron, when we said "setting the force."

BROWN: Right.

CLARK: Got to get up there, got to make contact with the main defense, got to build your supply base so you're ready to go in there and fight, and it's just an indeterminant phase. And while we're at it, of course, we're going to do everything we can with the air power against the Iraqi Republican Guards.

BROWN: And what you said the other day is, if setting the force takes two days or -- eight days, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that the end result is the same -- that the force is set and ready for the next stage.

Marty, feel free to jump in. You're the one riding out in the desert.

SAVIDGE: Well, this is essentially as we said, the trip why this particular unit -- it's called CAT red.

There are two CAT teams, CAT Red and CAT Blue that are assigned to the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines and they take turns riding point or providing security for the main body.

What they were doing -- of there some sort of engagement that they were to receive incoming fire, first thing they do is immediately send down ranges, what they referred to as suppressing fire, and then immediately behind us are a number of those armored personnel carriers that the Marines call AAVs, amphibious assault vehicles. They are also armed as well as carrying about 20 Marines in each one.

The Suicide Charlie is the name of the company behind us, would then race up as the reserve unit, if the engagement was either sustained or heavy in some way. So there us a dramatic sort of military ballet that is stretched out on this roadway. It is not just a bunch of trucks and vehicles following nose to nose. And it is definitely coordinated to support one another if there is some sort of attack. But the main purpose of course is to move the force forward at the same time.

BROWN: Marty, we look forward to the filing you'll be able to do when they move into these cities and villages. Martin Savidge, who is now with the marines, thank you very much much. General, we need to take a break. I have a feeling, though, that there are a lot of loose notes on your desk. Things that we -- I would have noticed if you were sitting next to me instead of being out in L.A., and so we will try and clean up simple those if not all of them in a moment.

CLARK: OK.

BROWN: We will take a break first. Our coverage continues in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: All right.

General Clark, let's start cleaning up some of the Post-It notes on your desk out there in Los Angeles, where you are with us tonight.

I heard the word Kosovo come out of Michael Wolff's lip sand I imagine you sat up pretty straight at that moment. So just -- what were you thinking at that -- at that point?

CLARK: Well, I think in every war, once it gets under way, there's a -- there's a burst of exhilaration when you see a plan that starts to unfold because it looks so well-organized and you haven't seen the enemy react to it, and then there's the -- there's -- there's right after that there's the trough of depression when the enemy doesn't do exactly what you expected time him to, and then there's a lot of despair and gnashing of teeth and we saw that in the Kosovo campaign and we've seen a little bit here and the force will have to adapt to it.

Now it seemed to me that what Michael Wolff is reporting though, is something very significant and that is, that the press abroad, and the publics abroad, are not seeing this war, they're not receiving it the way we are. They're not seeing it the same way. They're not -- and they're not -- they're not supporting it the same way that we are here in the United States.

BROWN: General, they weren't supporting it -- they weren't -- they weren't supporting the notion of it before.

CLARK: Right.

BROWN: So why would they all a sudden be supporting it now?

CLARK: Well, they wouldn't.

BROWN: Yes.

CLARK: But what's coming through from Michael's comments is that, you know, when you start with that -- that attitude and then you see a couple of things, like, the problems in Nasiriyah or Basra or whatever or the friendly fire incidents. Well, then, you know, these become magnified. And this is -- after all, this is -- this is Saddam's play. This is what he wants. This is the audience he's playing to with these incidents.

And that takes me to the second point, Aaron, which is, the political military connection in warfare. I mean at the -- you know, on the one hand, we're looking at the military side of this thing, we're saying, OK, how far did we get? How many sorties? What are we going to do about the Republican Guards -- and so forth?

But never forget that really warfare is directed toward a political end beyond the conquest of the enemy. It's, you know -- and in this case probably the United States has never been so isolated internationally as we are right now. NATO's split. Three members of the U.N. -- permanent Security Council machines are against us. All around the world, people are watching and so we've got to be conscience of what the political effect of the military actions is.

And this takes us into the rules of engagement, the timing for the attack, how we're going to have a post-world war world. There are a whole series of actions that the United States can take or not take depending on the sensitivity of American leadership to world opinion as it works its way through the military operations with an eye on political goal at the end.

BROWN: Now, just -- hang on for one second. I want to throw one more thing that was dangling from earlier, but just orient viewers again, as seen in Baghdad, and it does look somewhat smokier than it did a bit ago. I'm not sure what that background noise is, but I have a feeling that that's just the Lebanese Broadcasting Company broadcast that's going on.

We had not -- we have not heard any new explosions there. But we'll keep an eye on that. General, I think it was you, sir, but maybe it was someone else earlier who said there's a four to six-week window in here, where -- after which Saddam in the eyes of the Arab world generally and perhaps in the Europeans -- among Europeans as well, all a sudden looks a whole lot stronger and a lot less brittle than the Americans and the British had made him out to be.

CLARK: That's right. At least that's the perception right now.

The United States can shake that perception, but so can Saddam, and as long as the United States maintains a momentum in what it's doing, either through describing the air attacks on the Republican Guards, or the advances of its forces and so forth, then the so-called pause isn't a pause. It's just a continuing of grinding away on Saddam's ring of defenses around Baghdad.

But should that change -- should be there a wholesale shift of strategy to the south or some obvious period of time in which no progress is being made and reducing the defenses of Baghdad -- well, then the perception might be different. And it might be that the United States had lost momentum.

And at that point, people would, then, begin to clamor, What's all about? What's -- why are we doing this -- and so forth. And that, of course, is what Saddam is angling for.

BROWN: At some point perception becomes reality, as they say.

General, thanks. We'll talk to you some more tonight.

Ben Wedeman is in the northern part of Iraq, as you know, in Kalak tonight or this morning for him, and he joins us there. And what a different scene the landscape is there, Ben.

WEDEMAN: Ah yes, it certainly is.

Well, Aaron, just about 10 minutes ago, seven minutes ago, two large explosions on the horizon, on the ridge or behind the ridge that you're looking at. You may see a black cloud. That is the remnants of one of those explosions.

Now it appears the strikes took place about 10 to 15 kilometers away, which is, according to our local contacts, is where there is a significant military buildup. We've been told that -- here, I'm going to step into the camera. We've been told that there are about -- well, we don't have a precise number, actually -- but there are a large number of artillery pieces and tanks in that particular area.

Now, this comes about 25 hours after these ridge lights behind me were hit by four large explosions early in the morning yesterday. That is, yesterday for us.

Now, significantly overnight, we heard fairly heavy pounding of the city of Mosul, which is about 28 miles to the west of me. Al- Jazeera which does have a crew in that town took pictures through nightscope of their town being beaten, bombarded fairly vigorously during the night.

Now of course Mosul is one -- the largest city under Iraqi control in the northern part of the country. Very strategic because of its oil resources, the oil fields around that city, and obviously one of the major prizes in the north -- Aaron.

BROWN: We're just seeing these -- this is the first time we saw -- we had seen the pictures there. And that's about -- you said 28 miles from where you are?

WEDEMAN: That's correct About 28 miles to the west. In fact, there's a highway that runs -- I don't know if you can -- there is a bridge over here. We're going to pan over to that bridge -- is on the main highway between the Kurdish stronghold of Erbil and the city of Mosul, 28 miles. That bridge in fact, is the dividing line between Iraqi and Kurdish forces.

Now, when we first arrived here at this point, I think about five and a half weeks ago, there was still traffic going back and forth on that bridge. It was a very useful place to talk to people and find out what the situation was inside Mosul. Now, however, there are earth barricades at the Iraqi end of the bridge. We've been told the bridge has been mined with TNT. This is according to Kurdish sources, sometimes reliable. Sometimes not, I'll be frank to say. But at this point, there is no traffic going back and forth -- Aaron.

BROWN: And is this the area, Ben, where we saw the bombing, the attacks on those Iraqi positions the other night? Are you still roughly in the same area or have you moved?

WEDEMAN: No, Aaron, we're still in the same place...

BROWN: OK.

WEDEMNA: .... and this is where you saw those bombs fall.

BROWN: And you haven't seen anymore of that? Any more evidence that the Americans have been bringing in more troops or more supplies, beefing up what they dropped in the other night?

WEDEMAN: No, none whatsoever. It appears really digging in at that airfield that my colleague Brent Sadler was at at the Heria air field, which is about a half an hour outside of Erbil and an hour and a half from here.

BROWN: OK.

WEDEMAN: And to the best of our knowledge, there has been no deployment of those U.S. forces to the areas like this on the front line.

BROWN: So he's a good distance away from you. Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman reporting for us, embedded up there.

Actually, I'm not sure. Ben, you are -- you're embedded up there, you're just working on your own, right?

WEDEMAN: No, no. No, I'm -- we're on our own, Aaron.

BROWN: Ben's working on his own up there. And knowing Ben, he's probably just happy to do it that way, too.

We'll take a break. Our coverage continues after an update of the headlines in a moment or so.

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Aired March 28, 2003 - 00:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Daryn, how are you today? And do you have newspapers yet?
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: I do have newspapers. Do you want to do that now or do you want to do that later?

BROWN: Do one now, do one later.

KAGAN: All right. Let's split it up here.

Let's -- all right. Let's start with "Kuwait Times." Their headline today, "Key Karbala Crash Ahead". Interesting -- I think the stories today in the papers, Aaron are the pictures. This picture right here showing a U.S. Marine helping evacuate some wounded Iraqis. This is the picture -- and I only show it to you because the faces are blacked out. That caused so much controversy about Al-Jazeera with the British soldiers showing 00 this was a picture that was shown on Al-Jazeera. It showed their faces when they first showed the video. On the newspaper, they blacked out the pictures.

And also, big debate here in town -- should schools open up again tomorrow? The school week here begins on Saturday. The kids in Kuwait have been off for a week because of the war. They are scheduled to go back tomorrow. It's like being Monday morning here in Kuwait City. However, a lot of the schoolmasters and the teachers have lost the country, and so there's a debate -- does school go on or does it not?

That's the news from here in Kuwait City.

BROWN: Thank you. A friend of mine told me the other day that -- I guess that last week that her daughter asked her if the war started, would she have to go to school? So I guess kids think about these things in those terms.

Thank you very much and we'll see you the rest of the way this evening with us or this morning.

It's three minutes past midnight, so it's Friday morning now in the Persian Gulf and in the East Coast of the United States as well. We realize some of you may be just now joining us. In all parts of the country, particularly in the West. We'll add a little bit to the headlines that Daryn just reported and give a broader look at the day, the beginnings of which on the northern front.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) (voice-over): As week two of the war began, thunderous explosions near the Ministry of Information rocked Baghdad. They seem to be the strongest in days.

Preparation perhaps for what the American administration knows are crucial times ahead just outside the Iraqi capitol.

DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Republican Guard forces are ringing Baghdad, some 40, 50 miles away from it. And very likely that will be some of the toughest fighting that will occur. And that's yet ahead of us.

BROWN: On the ground, we can finally see some of those dots on the map. These are the outskirts of Najaf, a city where the Army's 7th Calvary took some of its heaviest fire. Peaceful enough for the moment, but just as in other parts of Iraq, the harassment by Iraqi irregulars was frightening.

SGT. TODD WOODHALL, U.S. ARMY, 7TH CAVALRY: With my hat just closed (ph) closed, a little scared. I had to do it a couple of time, reach in and talk to the man upstairs to say, Help out a little. I don't know if we can do all of this ourselves but it worked.

BROWN: As for those maps, here's what it looks like now:

In the west, the Army's Airborne and 3rd Infantry continue to advance towards Baghdad.

Meantime, the Marines are encountering tough resistance as they head toward the capitol in the eastern part of the country. And a sizable American force, those paratroopers you watched land last night are now in the north.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Follow me.

BROWN: The Army's 173rd Airborne Brigade began to set up defensive perimeters outside in abandoned Iraqi airfield in the Kurdish-controlled area of the north. At the opposite end of the country, in Basra, the British army is encircling the city. Refugees are pouring out to escape the fighting.

More food and water distributed today, but even with better crowd control, the scenes were chaotic. But for pure public relations' value, it is hard to beat this picture. An American tank flattening a portrait of Saddam Hussein.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Broad look at the day.

We'll start to fill in some of the pieces, beginning at the Pentagon. Chris Plante has the late-night duty.

Chris, good morning now to you. And the secretary of defense talked about more troops heading to the theater. A lot more troops.

CHRIS PLANTE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right.

The announcement came out today that -- an almost startling number, a hundred house more U.S. troops would be going to the area, but it requires a little bit of clarification.

We knew that the 4th Infantry Division, which is going to be 20, 25,000 troops was going to be going. They originally were going to go into Turkey and open up the northern front coming into Iraq from the north. That didn't happen because of the situation with the Turkish parliament there. The northern front is being opened, as you just explained in your piece, beginning with the paratroopers taking the airfield there.

Once the 4th Infantry Division, another 20,000 troops, gets there and meets up with their equipment in Kuwait, they will probably join the fight. They start leaving on Sunday from Fort Hood in Texas, and it will take some time for them to get there. You won't see all 20,000 of them arriving at once. It'll take some time, but by probably the second week in April, they'll be up and running in Kuwait and ready to go.

Not clear now whether still fighting go going on or not. Certainly the hope is not. And the rest of the troops, the additional 80 or so 1,000 troops are following troops that -- that quite honestly got their deployment orders some time ago. They're now getting their timetable.

A lot of these troops hopefully will at least be going in to relieve troops already there after the battle is over with -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. Chris, stay by. Let me bring in General Clark.

These troops, General, that we're talking about now, were not really supposed to fight the war. They were supposed to keep the peace. Is it realistic -- I know you don't want to make lots of predictions -- is it realistic that by the second week in April, the fighting will be over?

RETIRED GEN. WESLEY CLARK, FMR. NATO SUPREME COMMANDER, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It's hard to say, Aaron.

I think it -- it's -- we're going to find out in the next two or three days if we get the information from the Command, about the effectiveness of air against the Republican Guards.

BROWN: Yes.

CLARK: If what Miles O'Brien showed us is accurate, if the Air Force and others have much more information, then that -- if we're -- if air power's effectively applied against, well then the results will be clear. It's possible it could be over.

My guess -- my guess is 60/40 as it won't be.

BROWN: But the idea that it might be is not out of the question? CLARK: Correct. I wouldn't give up on that idea yet.

BROWN: OK. And what we lack besides knowledge of the plan, for goodness sakes, is we don't have the assessment. We don't have enough information. We -- the Pentagon doesn't -- well, they may have it. I don't know. We certainly don't have the information to reach a conclusion as to how effective the air has been to this point.

CLARK: And, of course, we don't -- also, Aaron, we don't know about what is really going on with Saddam and his chain of command, his command and control. We don't know if this robust or if it's brittle. We don't know how much has been taken out. We don't know if it's really a last gas with desperation or whether this is just the opening way.

BROWN: But Michael...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry. I think it was Michael Gordon last night who said that these regimes -- no, it wasn't. It was Thomas Friedman who said they look very strong until they break and they -- they really crack. You dealt, to a certain extent, with something like this in the Balkans, didn't you?

CLARK: I did.

BROWN: When it goes, it's gone.

CLARK: It was. But Milosevic and Saddam Hussein are so entirely different...

BROWN: OK.

CLARK: ...that it's difficult draw a direct comparison.

BROWN: OK, I can accept that. General, thanks. Wes Clark in Los Angeles tonight. In between other commitments, he's spending time with us, too.

If you were us at the beginning of the program at 10:00 Eastern time last night, it was one of the more remarkable hours or 90 minutes of this coverage, as 1,000 or so American Airborne soldiers floating down to Earth, parachuting to begin to form a northern front. We showed you how it played out last night.

Brent Sadler was on the ground literally as it was happening. He was talking to some soldiers and he joins us again now to update us on what's happened since that point -- Brent.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A daring mission to northern Iraq for American troops under the cover of darkness.

Ten waves of paratroopers from the 173rd Airborne Brigade, jumping in batches, a hundred at a time.

They landed in friendly territory controlled by Iraqi Kurds. A breathtaking assault by a thousand men, precision timed, and safely accomplished. No shots fired.

We found them at daybreak, assembling in groups scattered across the drop zone. No southern Iraqi desert sands here in the rugged mountains of Iraqi Kurdistan.

They landed on a carpet of grass and soft earth. Men and equipment, caked in mud, following days of heavy rain.

(on camera): Good morning, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Sergeant, Brent Sadler from CNN, good morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Geringer (ph).

SADLER: Welcome to Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

SADLER: How it was? Tell me please -- the parachute drop overnight.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The parachute drop was. It -- everything went according to plan. Planes came in, dropped us off just like how we normally do business.

SADLER: A drop from 1200 feet, a rush of adrenaline and the crack of an opening parachute before hitting the ground. That's how these troops described their dramatic entry into the war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're floating out there pitch black, you know. You don't know what it expect. You're just waiting to hit the ground and , you know, put your weapon in operation and get ready to go.

SADLER (voice-over): Parachutes are quickly packed, weapons cleaned and made ready. But its slow going at first, across this soggy plain. Nearby, more U.S. Special Forces from arrived, flown in by helicopter. They start to secure this vital landing strip. Follow-up forces and heavy equipment will surely flow through here.

The paratroopers have made an unchallenged start to their deployment. But they still dig in, just in case with friendly gestures.

Brent Sadler, CNN, Heria, northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So that is how it all finished off, that in which we started last night.

We have still tonight -- we'll talk with Senator Tim Johnson of South Dakota, who is the only member of the Senate, and I think the only member of Congress. But I am sure the only member of Senate with a child in -- a son in the war. We'll be talking with him.

We have much more. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We spoke earlier today with Tim Johnson, who's a Democratic senator from South Dakota. And his involvement in all of this is not just that of a senator. He has a young son, Brooks Johnson, who is a sergeant in the army. There is a picture of Brooks. He's in the 101st, and he tonight is somewhere out in Iraq.

We talked to the senator late this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator, there are personal questions, I suppose and policy questions. Let's start with the personal. Tell us about your son.

SEN. TIM JOHNSON (D), SOUTH DAKOTA: Well, I just got an e-mail a few minutes ago from him. It's the first one we've had in quite a few days now. They're out in the desert, in Iraq. He said they have gone through a sandstorm, rain and mud.

So far, he isn't too impressed with the countryside, he tells me.

BROWN: But he's OK? He's in good shape?

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: He's OK. He's in good shape. His spirits seem to be good and that was -- it was great to hear from him that way.

BROWN: He's a sergeant, correct?

JOHNSON: He's a staff sergeant in the 101st Airborne.

BROWN: And he was in Afghanistan as well as I recall?

JOHNSON: Bosnia, Kosovo, Afghanistan and now Iraq. It's been a tough temple that he's been keeping up.

BROWN: Is it at all difficult for you to separate the personal from the policy decisions that you have to make?

JOHNSON: You just have to do that.

I talked to Brooks prior to the resolution authorizing force, and his view was, he'll do the best job that he can as a president -- as a soldier. I will have to do the best that I can do as a senator. And that's really what you have to do. You cannot be casting public policy votes based on personal concerns of security and safety.

BROWN: Is there -- well, when you see -- well, there was big protests in new York today. There have been protests all over the place. When you see them, given the unique position -- truly unique position have you, what do you see?

JOHNSON: Well, I see the strength of America. I see people speaking out, expressing their views and that's what this is what this is all about -- to make sure that our country retains that right and hopefully that other countries can transition into a democracy, into a country that respects human rights, human liberties and that includes the freedom of speech.

BROWN: What does it say that you are the only senator with a son over there? Does it say anything about the country, about the make-up of the military at all?

JOHNSON: I think it does somewhat. I think that Representative Rangel had a point that things have changed a lot in the last decade or so, that we don't have a lot of members of Congress whose kids are in the military.

I think you've got a lot of middle-class kids out there, but it's probably through upper middle class, wealthy families are not sending their kids into the military any longer and I think that that's a -- that's a negative. On the other hand, I don't think bringing back conscription is the answer. I don't think that is where we are going to go.

So what we do need to do it honor and respect the people who choose to serve in our military to make and sure that they're treated well, because they're doing a job that frankly not a lot of other Americans want to perform.

BROWN: And what is your assessment of the job as it's played out over now just a week?

JOHNSON: Well, I think we have the greatest military in the world. Obviously, there will be good days, and there will be days that aren't so good. And we just have to hope and to pray that this military action is quick, decisive, that there is a minimum of losses on every side and that we can move on.

BROWN: It's been over the last couple of days, a lot of sort of chippy, sort of criticism at the plan, that perhaps they underestimated the Iraqis. What's your view on that?

JOHNSON: Well, I had a lot of differences with the White House in the lead-up to this war relative to its diplomacy. But at this point I don't think we need a lot of senators serving as armchair generals. I think we've got the best military minds in the world at hand there. We're only a week or so into this conflict and I think we've got to rely on the judgment of their tactics.

BROWN: Given -- given your unique situation, do you spend a lot of time watching the coverage? Have you had a chance to even see your son out there yet?

JOHNSON: Well, I try to take a look at CNN whenever I can. Obviously, there are a lot of other things going on, but I try to keep track of things as the day goes on. My wife does as well from her place of work and when we go home in the evening.

So we do follow this and obviously it is an unsettling matter, because we're on the one hand, we're grateful to know what's going to in a real-time basis. On the other hand there's the realization that at any moment, there could be an announcement that would be truly catastrophic to our family, or to other families.

And so it's with some interest but also some trepidation, frankly, that we do keep track of things on the television.

BROWN: Senator, in the way we feel about all of the families, we wish you nothing but good luck and your son nothing but a safe return, and we appreciate your time tonight. Thank you.

JOHNSON: Thank you, aaron.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator Tim Johnson, Democratic -- a Democratic senator from South Dakota.

As you look at Baghdad, one of the issues in the senator's campaign last November was whether he was strong enough on the military. His Republican opponent said he was not. They ran a lot of ads about that. The senator, the only senator with a son who is in service in the Persian Gulf tonight.

In Baghdad, the sirens have been sounding again. That smoke, though, that you see from the center moving left on your screen is not new. We have seen that for several hours, and is likely the result of bombing that occurred around 3:00 or 4:00 in the morning Baghdad time.

Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, really for the last three days on our watch, the -- one of major story lines has been the development of a northern front. It's still in its early stages. It started two nights ago.

You'll recall that right about this time in fact, when correspondents Kevin Sites and Ben Wedeman started to say they were seeing jets overhead and those jets were hitting Iraqi positions on a mountaintop. And then the next day of course, yesterday the paratroopers came in. Clearly, the paratroopers were a welcome site in the sky to the Kurdish forces who have been waiting and waiting for the Americans to come in to establish that northern front.

Here's how some of that looked to CNN's Ben Wedeman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A coalition warplane glints in the early morning sunlight and goes in for a kill, pounding Iraqi Army frontlines in northern Iraq. When the bombing ended, nerves were still on edge. At the sound of a plane, Iraqi soldiers scurry for cover, others dig in deep for the next strike.

Less than a mile away, Kurdish fighters in the village of Kalak keep a close eye on their old foes and wait. They had confidently predicted that once the shooting began, the Iraqis would come down the hill with hands up. That hasn't happened. American propaganda leaflets and bombs not quite enough for the Iraqis to convince the Iraqi to call it quits.

(on camera): News of the arrival of American forces in the north welcome here. Kurdish leaders have announced that now that the Americans are here, it is safe for people to return to the frontline towns and villages they had fled from. But here in Kalak, with Iraqi positions right over the town, it may be a little too early for that.

(voice-over): Despite the obvious danger, some have returned. Others now entertain hopes they will be reunited with friends and relatives cut off my war.

My family is from here, but my tribe is on the other side under the Iraqi regime's control, says Kurdish Corporal Fahik Azzi (ph). We hope we can put an end to all of this.

Shop owner Ahmed Aska (ph) just wants to get back to business. The sooner the Iraqi soldiers leaves this area, he says, the better. A sentiment one hears along the northern front with mounting confidence.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Kalak, northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll have more our of northern Iraq before morning is done.

We try and spend time every morning taking a look at some of media issues that this -- the coverage of the extraordinary coverage of the war has created. Don Hewitt, who pretty much was there at the beginning of television talked about that last night with some excitement. I'm not sure we will get the same from our next guest.

Michael Wolff writes media criticism for the -- for "New York" magazine. It is often sharp, and we're glad to see him. He's in Qatar of all places.

Michael, nice to see you. Both newspapers...

MICHAEL WOLFF, NEW YORK MAGAZINE COLUMNIST: How are you, Aaron?

BROWN: I'm fine, thank you, sir.

Both newspapers and television, if you had to put a lead on how you would think the coverage has been, what would it be?

WOLFF: I guess the lead would be murky, muddled. I think end of the day, nobody knows what's going on. I think that we're certainly -- we're all sitting here and we're saying -- saying, Well on the one hand, it could be that victory is certain. On the other hand, it could be that this is an utter fiasco.

BROWN: Who is saying this could be an utter fiasco? Where are you hearing that?

WOLFF: Virtually all of us sit -- virtually all of us sitting here in -- Qatar are saying that's a possibility. At the same time, we think, OK, they may be right. There may be certain victory ahead of us. But there's no certainty of this. There's no real, real, real believability here.

I mean, I hesitate to return to the words credibility gap, but there does seem to be a reality discrepancy.

BROWN: And where do you see the reality discrepancy? I mean, where is that -- that's coming from the briefers or is that in the way the story is being reported? Where is that?

WOLFF: Well, for one of the thing, when you're in -- when you're in a place like -- like Qatar, you're surrounded by the international press. And one of the interesting things is how at odds the U.S. press is from -- from the press throughout the world.

I mean, the -- the story that -- that's -- that's being told in the -- in the international press is markedly different know that the story that's being told by the briefers in Qatar or by -- by what turns up on the American networks.

BROWN: And to finish that thought, the story that the international press is reporting is one -- is what?

WOLFF: Of certainly potential quagmire.

I mean, I think what we're look at here is, I mean, very clearly that the expectation was of a very, very quick war. And the reality is, certainly seems to be something much different.

BROWN: Would -- I am not sure this is a fair question. I will ask it anyway. Do you think a week into the war it is fair for anyone to write that the country or the coalition could be facing a quagmire? Is there any evidence a week and a day in that supports that?

WOLFF: Well, no, probably not.

As a matter of fact, you know, one of the things that I can, I mean, obviously recall is that the first week in Kosovo was also very bad and also people said -- said, You know, this is a -- this is a big problem. It's -- none of -- none of the expectations are being realized here. And then -- and then in the course of really about 24 hours, it all tumbled in -- in the direction that the administration had anticipated.

So is that the same situation as now? Yes, it's possible that virtually any day we will get up and suddenly it will all go our way.

I think, though, that -- that in -- at this moment in time, the feeling is that -- that -- that the expectations, what we were led to expect would happen here is so at odds with in fact what is happening that -- that-- that everybody here and we're kind of waiting for, you know, -- we're just sort of ciphers. We're waiting to be -- to be told to sort of -- to be given the convincing -- a convincing demonstration that this is all going well. And we're certainly not getting that.

And, as I say, being out in the field here and being -- being exposed to -- to these -- these information currents that -- that come from many other -- many other parts of -- of the world, you're left thinking Boy, you know, this could be -- I mean, there's really trouble out there.

BROWN: Well, it's certainly -- there are certainly, it seems from our reporting there are pockets of difficulty and that the things perhaps were not as rosy as -- as the political argument a month ago made it seem it would go.

WOLFF: When -- when -- when you're in a situation and when you can't get answers to -- to basic questions...

BROWN: Like?

WOLFF: How many people are dead.

BROWN: Yes.

WOLFF: How -- what is a realistic timetable? I mean, when people start saying -- I mean, the president said -- said yesterday, and this is certainly echoed by the briefers here, you know, we will -- we will fight as long as necessary.

Well, you know, I mean that's -- first that's patently untrue. You can't fight as long as necessary. You don't have a -- you don't have a free reign here. At some point, people are going to say, Hey, this has gone on too long. This is not worth about it.

So it's those kinds of things that -- that -- that you have to step back. You find yourself stepping back and saying, OK, what's the real meaning here? And the real meaning is probably that -- that everybody's panicking a little. It's off-script.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Good to talk to you. Have an interesting time in Qatar. And hopefully, we'll talk to when you you get back. Michael Wolff, who writes for "New York" magazine...

WOLFF: Great.

BROWN: ...writes media criticism and is out there watching media and doing some criticizing, as it turns outs.

We'll take a break. Daryn Kagan updates the headlines and our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT) BROWN: A couple of headlines from here to show that you, that have caught our eye.

Start with -- I think the only foreign paper I think that we're going today -- "The Guardian," not surprisingly, they put the Blair -- Mr. Blair-Mr. Bush meeting on the front page. "We are Working to Make the World More Peaceful" is the headline.

But up on top, if we can -- if I can angle this in a way that you can see it. I'm sorry. It's an exclusive interview with Hans Blix. Remember him? "Nothing I could have said from the end of January would have stopped the war," says the Chief U.N. Weapons Inspector to "The Guardian" one of the British papers.

Now, a bunch of American papers. And no -- that I can find at least looking through them -- no consistent theme.

"Miami Herald" -- "Skies Open for Bombs at Baghdad" and down at the bottom on the left, American Airlines may file for bankruptcy next week. Talk about a story and particularly in Miami, a lot of American fights roll out of there, would have been a huge story, way above the fold tucked away in the corner.

That is also a story in the "Dallas Morning News," also down in the corner, "Bankruptcy Buzz on AMR," American Airlines is Win. But up at the top, "Regroup: Resupplies" is the way the "Dallas Morning News." Everyone still leads, as you would expect, we're only a week into it for goodness sakes, still leads with the war.

"Cincinnati Enquirer" was very straight away. "Sandstorms Retreat, Planes Renew Strikes on Baghdad." They just took everything they went on, put it in the headline and stuck it on the front page with that -- with that picture of that huge strike in Baghdad that occurred just a few hours ago.

We want to mention Newsday, "New York Newsday," one of the tabloid newspapers in New York. There's their headline: "Deadly Dilemma," and two "Newsday" reporters -- a reporter and a photographer are missing over there. I think all told right now there are about five reporters who are missing, and we hope that, like the soldiers, they all come home.

How we doing on time? OK. Woops -- "The Detroit News" headline: "U.S. Slowdown".

So again, there's just no consistent theme in -- in the way the story's being reported by newspapers around the country. And in some respects, I think that's - there's just no major story going. There's all these little -- not so little stories. There's the fighting in the south. There's the new front in the north. There's the this and the that. But it was hard if you were a newspaper headline writer and you got to come up with one headline to sum it up, it's not easy to do.

And so "The Charlotte Observer" of Charlotte, North Carolina simply went "Bush, Blair Say Win is Certain, Not Quick," and they put a picture -- a big picture from the war zone on the front page. But their main story is the president and Mr. Blair's meeting.

I thought there was something else I wanted to say. Now, here is -- not doing that one.

"The Chicago Sun-Times" is the last one that we will do for you tonight. "U.S. in Fight For As Long as it Takes" is "The Chicago Sun- Times" headline. And we -- regular NEWSNIGHT viewers know, we always describe the way they do the weather in the "Chicago Sun-Times." Not cloudy, not rainy, not this, not that they come up with a different adjective and the weather tomorrow will be relentless. I have no idea what relentless weather is, but I guess that's why you buy the paper. You pay your 35 cents, you buy the paper, you open it up and you find out what the weather is going to be.

Martin Savidge is on the videophone. He's traveling, as I recall, with the Marine unit. I haven't talked to him in a some time.

Marty, it's good to hear from you.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You want to start on you, Marty, and (UNINTELLIGIBLE)?

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron.

Right now, we are traveling in a military convoy in southern Iraq headed towards central Iraq. We're with the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines. This is me in the back seat, obviously, seen through the rearview mirror. We're riding up front with what is called a CAT team -- that's a combined armor anti-tank team. These are the teams that have right now been designated to deal with these Fedyaeen attack.

They're a highly mobilize force. They're using Humvees. These are the military jeeps. And they're heavily armed. You've Tow anti- tank missiles. You also .50 caliber machine guns that are mounted on the tops of those and what they call a mark-manned team, which is a fuller automatic grenade launcher.

We are running ahead of the main convoy. They are a security force. Their idea and their roll is to go out there and basically seek out the enemy. And in this case, the Marines are calling the enemy the Fedayeen, which are these paramilitary units that have been harassing the supply lines, part of what has been slowing down the overall military effort.

They are taking these attacks very seriously. They don't say that they are a major impairment, but they are trying to deal with them as best they can. So that's why they're using a highly mobile force with a lot of weaponry.

These guys run in front. The idea is they're essentially the early warning system. They take incoming fire. They'll immediately return fire and they will try to do in a very heavy way. You are just looking at some of the detrim that you find along the route here, American vehicles that her have been damaged or abandoned.

But this is how they are dealing with the Fedayeen right now, running these mobile fast units along the convoy route hoping to make contact. If they do make contact, very willing to return fire -- Aaron.

BROWN: Two questions. One, are you seeing a lot of abandoned vehicles along the road?

SAVIDGE: Well, a lot compared to the tremendous amount of equipment you see pouring out from northern Kuwait, no. But they are become more and more a frequent site.

It can be for any number of reasons: mechanical breakdowns -- the stress of long-distance travel on some of this equipment is taking its toll. It also can be due to damage. When you have nighttime convoys, that driving under those condition, difficulty to the night vision goggles. They have accidents. And then some of it can also be the result of direct fire. I don't believe much of it is really the result of direct fire. It's usually mechanics or accidents.

They strip the vehicles down. If they can't get it going again, if they can't tow it, they'll take everything they can, and leave it to the side of the road and someone else will deal with it, Aaron.

BROWN: And Marty, did -- did this unit expect to have to deal with this counter insurgency, if that's the right way to frame it. Is that what they anticipated they'd have to do?

SAVIDGE: No. No, they didn't anticipate they have to do that at all. They thought they were going to have a very different mission, but obviously once the ground war began and only about two days afterward, the guerrilla tactics began to arrive and of course, as you know, that supply line from northern Kuwait is getting longer and longer every day and as it gets longer, it also gets potentially more and more a danger as far as being struck.

So this is a new duty that they've been given. And it is a duty that they may have to continue for some time longer. It's also a potentially dangerous one because they have to go out into villages and into the towns and actually seek out the enemy. You're not going to look for a major fighting force. You 'e looking for basically opposition forces, paramilitary units that are going to hit and run. It's difficult to deal with, as the U.S. has found in many previous wars.

BROWN: Marty, stay with us. I'm going to bring in General Clark into this.

General, this is -- this is the plan. This is flexibility in action, isn't it?

CLARK: It is. It absolutely is.

But, you know, with all respect to the Marines here, I think who are doing a heroic job here, Aaron, they're engaging in something that we would term sustained land combat. And I know this from reading between the lines of some of the dispatches from the Marines -- they have a particular logistics problem because the Marine Corps hasn't been -- hasn't been organized for that kind of long-distance logistics support that 1st Battalion 7th Marines is securing right now.

BROWN: That the Army -- the Army and the Marines are set up to do different kinds of missions, and, therefore, the logistical operations of the two are set up differently?

CLARK: They are, yes.

The four structure of the Army is designed for sustained land combat. This operation -- Baghdad, according to some reports, will be the greatest distance inland a significance Marine force has ever fought and penetrated. And I know the Marines are great fighters; they want to be on this fight. But that is a challenge and this diversion of this battalion to do rear area security, essentially guarding these supply lines, of course does take away from the fox hole strength at the front.

BROWN: Marty, we saw a helicopter fly overhead just a moment ago, so there's obviously that component also. Are they looking for these Fedayeen, or are they waiting for them to show themselves?

SAVIDGE: Essentially, they're set up right now just in case they show themselves. This is not an active search to find them. This is basically convoy security. You can see how the Humvees are sequentially faced across the roadway here with their Tow missiles and with the heavy machine guns pointed in opposite directions so they can cover both sides of the road as they move.

The idea is to move this -- move this battalion forward. We're not sure exactly how far, but pushing forward northern -- into northern Iraq. And then from there, they will probably establish some sort of temporary base, and begin to go out and try to make contact search in the villages and find the home operating bases for these Fedayeen units.

So, today's moving day, but even when you have something as relatively benign as a convoy movement, nothing is taken for granted and they have found that they have been attacked before. So they're using every caution.

BROWN: And are they just moving across the desert terrain, or is there some -- something approaching a road that they're driving on?

SAVIDGE: This is a road actually. It's a highway, or at least what was the basis for a highway.

It fluctuates dramatically. There are times when you can be riding on what is a very modern -- looks like back in the USA-type of highway system and then other types, for whatever the route has chosen, we go off into the desert, off into the hard terrain.

But right now, this is a very -- at least there's the basic elements of a road and it's a road that's going north.

BROWN: General, probably should have asked this a couple of minutes ago. If the Marines aren't set up to do this sort of thing, why not send an Army unit to do this sort of thing? CLARK: Well, that -- that's a question the planners would have to answer, and obviously with the right augmentation, the Marines can do something. They do have these amtraks that are very large armored personnel carrier. They're not the same as Bradley. The light armored vehicles not the same definition protection as a Bradley.

But that's decision that was made for whatever reasons it was made. And so now we're going to make this work, and I'm confident we will.

But this is all part of this move north and working all of the supply line. It's all part of what we were talking about the, night, Aaron, when we said "setting the force."

BROWN: Right.

CLARK: Got to get up there, got to make contact with the main defense, got to build your supply base so you're ready to go in there and fight, and it's just an indeterminant phase. And while we're at it, of course, we're going to do everything we can with the air power against the Iraqi Republican Guards.

BROWN: And what you said the other day is, if setting the force takes two days or -- eight days, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that the end result is the same -- that the force is set and ready for the next stage.

Marty, feel free to jump in. You're the one riding out in the desert.

SAVIDGE: Well, this is essentially as we said, the trip why this particular unit -- it's called CAT red.

There are two CAT teams, CAT Red and CAT Blue that are assigned to the 1st Battalion, 7th Marines and they take turns riding point or providing security for the main body.

What they were doing -- of there some sort of engagement that they were to receive incoming fire, first thing they do is immediately send down ranges, what they referred to as suppressing fire, and then immediately behind us are a number of those armored personnel carriers that the Marines call AAVs, amphibious assault vehicles. They are also armed as well as carrying about 20 Marines in each one.

The Suicide Charlie is the name of the company behind us, would then race up as the reserve unit, if the engagement was either sustained or heavy in some way. So there us a dramatic sort of military ballet that is stretched out on this roadway. It is not just a bunch of trucks and vehicles following nose to nose. And it is definitely coordinated to support one another if there is some sort of attack. But the main purpose of course is to move the force forward at the same time.

BROWN: Marty, we look forward to the filing you'll be able to do when they move into these cities and villages. Martin Savidge, who is now with the marines, thank you very much much. General, we need to take a break. I have a feeling, though, that there are a lot of loose notes on your desk. Things that we -- I would have noticed if you were sitting next to me instead of being out in L.A., and so we will try and clean up simple those if not all of them in a moment.

CLARK: OK.

BROWN: We will take a break first. Our coverage continues in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: All right.

General Clark, let's start cleaning up some of the Post-It notes on your desk out there in Los Angeles, where you are with us tonight.

I heard the word Kosovo come out of Michael Wolff's lip sand I imagine you sat up pretty straight at that moment. So just -- what were you thinking at that -- at that point?

CLARK: Well, I think in every war, once it gets under way, there's a -- there's a burst of exhilaration when you see a plan that starts to unfold because it looks so well-organized and you haven't seen the enemy react to it, and then there's the -- there's -- there's right after that there's the trough of depression when the enemy doesn't do exactly what you expected time him to, and then there's a lot of despair and gnashing of teeth and we saw that in the Kosovo campaign and we've seen a little bit here and the force will have to adapt to it.

Now it seemed to me that what Michael Wolff is reporting though, is something very significant and that is, that the press abroad, and the publics abroad, are not seeing this war, they're not receiving it the way we are. They're not seeing it the same way. They're not -- and they're not -- they're not supporting it the same way that we are here in the United States.

BROWN: General, they weren't supporting it -- they weren't -- they weren't supporting the notion of it before.

CLARK: Right.

BROWN: So why would they all a sudden be supporting it now?

CLARK: Well, they wouldn't.

BROWN: Yes.

CLARK: But what's coming through from Michael's comments is that, you know, when you start with that -- that attitude and then you see a couple of things, like, the problems in Nasiriyah or Basra or whatever or the friendly fire incidents. Well, then, you know, these become magnified. And this is -- after all, this is -- this is Saddam's play. This is what he wants. This is the audience he's playing to with these incidents.

And that takes me to the second point, Aaron, which is, the political military connection in warfare. I mean at the -- you know, on the one hand, we're looking at the military side of this thing, we're saying, OK, how far did we get? How many sorties? What are we going to do about the Republican Guards -- and so forth?

But never forget that really warfare is directed toward a political end beyond the conquest of the enemy. It's, you know -- and in this case probably the United States has never been so isolated internationally as we are right now. NATO's split. Three members of the U.N. -- permanent Security Council machines are against us. All around the world, people are watching and so we've got to be conscience of what the political effect of the military actions is.

And this takes us into the rules of engagement, the timing for the attack, how we're going to have a post-world war world. There are a whole series of actions that the United States can take or not take depending on the sensitivity of American leadership to world opinion as it works its way through the military operations with an eye on political goal at the end.

BROWN: Now, just -- hang on for one second. I want to throw one more thing that was dangling from earlier, but just orient viewers again, as seen in Baghdad, and it does look somewhat smokier than it did a bit ago. I'm not sure what that background noise is, but I have a feeling that that's just the Lebanese Broadcasting Company broadcast that's going on.

We had not -- we have not heard any new explosions there. But we'll keep an eye on that. General, I think it was you, sir, but maybe it was someone else earlier who said there's a four to six-week window in here, where -- after which Saddam in the eyes of the Arab world generally and perhaps in the Europeans -- among Europeans as well, all a sudden looks a whole lot stronger and a lot less brittle than the Americans and the British had made him out to be.

CLARK: That's right. At least that's the perception right now.

The United States can shake that perception, but so can Saddam, and as long as the United States maintains a momentum in what it's doing, either through describing the air attacks on the Republican Guards, or the advances of its forces and so forth, then the so-called pause isn't a pause. It's just a continuing of grinding away on Saddam's ring of defenses around Baghdad.

But should that change -- should be there a wholesale shift of strategy to the south or some obvious period of time in which no progress is being made and reducing the defenses of Baghdad -- well, then the perception might be different. And it might be that the United States had lost momentum.

And at that point, people would, then, begin to clamor, What's all about? What's -- why are we doing this -- and so forth. And that, of course, is what Saddam is angling for.

BROWN: At some point perception becomes reality, as they say.

General, thanks. We'll talk to you some more tonight.

Ben Wedeman is in the northern part of Iraq, as you know, in Kalak tonight or this morning for him, and he joins us there. And what a different scene the landscape is there, Ben.

WEDEMAN: Ah yes, it certainly is.

Well, Aaron, just about 10 minutes ago, seven minutes ago, two large explosions on the horizon, on the ridge or behind the ridge that you're looking at. You may see a black cloud. That is the remnants of one of those explosions.

Now it appears the strikes took place about 10 to 15 kilometers away, which is, according to our local contacts, is where there is a significant military buildup. We've been told that -- here, I'm going to step into the camera. We've been told that there are about -- well, we don't have a precise number, actually -- but there are a large number of artillery pieces and tanks in that particular area.

Now, this comes about 25 hours after these ridge lights behind me were hit by four large explosions early in the morning yesterday. That is, yesterday for us.

Now, significantly overnight, we heard fairly heavy pounding of the city of Mosul, which is about 28 miles to the west of me. Al- Jazeera which does have a crew in that town took pictures through nightscope of their town being beaten, bombarded fairly vigorously during the night.

Now of course Mosul is one -- the largest city under Iraqi control in the northern part of the country. Very strategic because of its oil resources, the oil fields around that city, and obviously one of the major prizes in the north -- Aaron.

BROWN: We're just seeing these -- this is the first time we saw -- we had seen the pictures there. And that's about -- you said 28 miles from where you are?

WEDEMAN: That's correct About 28 miles to the west. In fact, there's a highway that runs -- I don't know if you can -- there is a bridge over here. We're going to pan over to that bridge -- is on the main highway between the Kurdish stronghold of Erbil and the city of Mosul, 28 miles. That bridge in fact, is the dividing line between Iraqi and Kurdish forces.

Now, when we first arrived here at this point, I think about five and a half weeks ago, there was still traffic going back and forth on that bridge. It was a very useful place to talk to people and find out what the situation was inside Mosul. Now, however, there are earth barricades at the Iraqi end of the bridge. We've been told the bridge has been mined with TNT. This is according to Kurdish sources, sometimes reliable. Sometimes not, I'll be frank to say. But at this point, there is no traffic going back and forth -- Aaron.

BROWN: And is this the area, Ben, where we saw the bombing, the attacks on those Iraqi positions the other night? Are you still roughly in the same area or have you moved?

WEDEMAN: No, Aaron, we're still in the same place...

BROWN: OK.

WEDEMNA: .... and this is where you saw those bombs fall.

BROWN: And you haven't seen anymore of that? Any more evidence that the Americans have been bringing in more troops or more supplies, beefing up what they dropped in the other night?

WEDEMAN: No, none whatsoever. It appears really digging in at that airfield that my colleague Brent Sadler was at at the Heria air field, which is about a half an hour outside of Erbil and an hour and a half from here.

BROWN: OK.

WEDEMAN: And to the best of our knowledge, there has been no deployment of those U.S. forces to the areas like this on the front line.

BROWN: So he's a good distance away from you. Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman reporting for us, embedded up there.

Actually, I'm not sure. Ben, you are -- you're embedded up there, you're just working on your own, right?

WEDEMAN: No, no. No, I'm -- we're on our own, Aaron.

BROWN: Ben's working on his own up there. And knowing Ben, he's probably just happy to do it that way, too.

We'll take a break. Our coverage continues after an update of the headlines in a moment or so.

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