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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

NEWSNIGHT

Aired March 30, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You are looking at a live picture of Baghdad. A hazy morning in Baghdad. 6:00 a.m. after a night that has seen a lot of activity in the skies over that capitol.
Good evening I’m Anderson Cooper. Welcome to this expanded edition of NEWSNIGHT.

We begin as we always do with a look at the broad themes of the day. There was toughness from the air, defensiveness from Washington, and on the ground, another day of challenges.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Whether it was continuing night time attacks on the Iraqi capitol, or daytime helicopter assaults on Iraqi positions in the central part of the country, coalition air power was dominant again on day 12 of the war. Even though American commanders denied there was a pause in the ground action, for many, rest and resupply seemed the order of the day.

CNN’s Art Harris is with the Marines in Nasiriya, scene of some of the heaviest fighting of the war.

ART HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Marines tell me they have accomplished their objective in Nasiriya, which is to keep the bridges and roads open, so the supply train can roll north, resupplying troops, all the way to Baghdad.

COOPER: Three major American ground units are in position to the south and west of Baghdad. But there has been no significant movement by any of them for the past few days. To the north, American and Kurdish fighters are holding their ground, but as of yet, there aren’t enough troops for a major advance on the oil city of Kirkuk.

The first pictures arrived of the aftermath of that deadly suicide car bombing in the city of Najaf. Suicide attacks have been discussed by Central Command, but General Tommy Franks said this attack was in one sense remarkable.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CMDR. IN CHIEF, CENTRAL COMMAND: Remarkable, though, is the connection all the way to the top of the Iraqi regime, where if my Arabic serves me well, that attack was just endorsed by those in power.

COOPER: In the wake of the suicide attacks, it seems tactics may have changed. These aerial pictures show what is now standard operating procedure, unknown vehicles are quickly surrounded, maximum forces is applied. Military spokesmen say drivers of two other vehicles were shot when they refused to stop as ordered.

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT, WITH 101ST AIRBORNE: These men walked up to a long range artillery position and asked to surrender.

COOPER: Not far from Najaf, these prisoners were identified as members of the Fedayeen, the militia group which has caused so much trouble for American troops in several Iraqi cities.

In the far south, around Basra, a pipe carrying precious water into the city was also completed. Not all was well, however. Al- Jazeera Television ran these pictures of a coalition tank badly disabled outside Basra. And a Marine helicopter crashed in southern Iraq, an accident, it seemed. Three on board perished.

In the north, near the city of Mosul, American B-52s dropped their bombs along a ridgeline occupied by Iraqi soldiers. In Kuwait, one American soldier was hurt and a dozen or so others injured slightly when a truck, driven by an Egyptian man, drove into a crowded post exchange store.

The military battle continues. So too the battle for Iraqi hearts and minds. Murals of Saddam Hussein are being destroyed, but until the man and his regime are eliminated, hearts and minds might be a difficult battle to win.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, Pentagon officials keep stressing that there is no pause in the push towards Baghdad. Putting aside what is happening with the troops on the ground, it is clear that in the campaign from the air, there is no hint of a pause. If anything, the air strikes are increasing. Some 1800 sorties today alone. 75 runs every hour. The Air Force said only 20 percent of its strikes have actually targeted sites in Baghdad. Nevertheless, explosions have rocked the Iraqi capitol.

CNN’s Nic Robertson is just over the border in Jordan – Nic?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Anderson. Those explosions have been going on all night. Just before dawn, one of the night scope cameras surveying the horizon in Baghdad was able to pick up, it wasn’t able to see, but it was able to pick up several loud explosions.

And those explosions, we’re told, going off according to reporters in Baghdad, at least say that those were explosions were going off in a presidential compound in the center of Baghdad, about four hours before. At about 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning Baghdad time, there were more loud explosions. These coming very close to camera positions again, very close to Iraq’s ministry of information, just behind the 28th of April Shopping Center. That shopping center named after President Saddam Hussein’s birthday.

Not clear exactly what was hit and what was burning there, but certainly, very close to the ministry of information and very close to those apartment buildings, that residential area just behind the ministry of information. And a little earlier in the evening, a huge oil fire very close to center of Baghdad, big pools of black smoke coming up from the yellow-orange flames from what appeared to be an oil fire.

Now it’s not clear if this was an oil fire set by Iraqi officials to drive black smoke into the sky to cloud the vision of coalition pilots or whether or not this indeed was an – was a fuel storage depot that was hit in a coalition sortie over the capitol of Baghdad, but certainly a very busy night over the capitol.

One other interesting piece of information yesterday from a Red Cross official in Baghdad, a member of the International Committee for the Red Cross, who was able to visit some of the hospitals in Baghdad. He said he could confirm Iraq’s figures of approximately 100 people every day turning up at those hospitals in Baghdad. He said men, women and children were among the injured. And for what he could see and what Iraqi officials were telling him, at this time at least, Iraq has enough medical supplies to treat its injured – Anderson?

COOPER: Nic, you mentioned officials from the International Committee of the Red Cross. Do – is there any information on whether or not they have been able to visit American POWs being held by the Iraqi regime?

ROBERTSON: From what they were telling us late yesterday about 12 hours ago now, they had at that time not been able to visit the members of coalition forces who have been captured by Iraqi forces. No reason given. They say that is something that they want to do, but they were able to say at least that they had been to hospitals in the Baghdad area, and checked up on those still waiting to meet with POWs – Anderson.

COOPER: And Nic, I know you often monitor Iraqi television. Is Iraqi satellite TV still on the air? And do you know if domestic television is still on the air in Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Anderson, the best way that we can monitor that at the moment is the talk with journalists who are inside Baghdad. That’s very difficult for us. Iraqi officials demand that other journalists in Baghdad don’t pass information to CNN. That was part of the restrictions when they threw the CNN team of Baghdad. So it’s very difficult to give you accurate information.

But the last conversation we had indicated that Iraq’s domestic television channel was going on and off the air. But it’s not clear of exactly where it stands at the moment.

COOPER: And can you give us a sense – I mean, you mentioned this palace that might’ve belonged to Saddam Hussein’s son or one of his sons. Can you give us a sense of – I mean, how many palaces do these sons have, do these kids have in the city?

ROBERTSON: They have a lot of palaces, and not just in the city, but in the outskirts. From what we understand, the palace that was hit this evening is a very large area. It’s about two miles long, about a mile or so wide, maybe even a mile and a half. It sits on the bank of the Tigris River that runs right through the center of Baghdad. It is there in the middle of Baghdad. There are many, many buildings in it. And it’s not clear, the cameras didn’t capture which building was actually impacted tonight.

But of the many, many buildings in there, some of them are huge. Some of the buildings themselves would cover several soccer fields. So it would take many hits or many nights by coalition forces to completely destroy those buildings and perhaps that is why they’ve been revisiting some of these targets that they’ve already been hitting, Anderson.

COOPER: And Nic, finally, I’m trying to remember in the videos that we have seen coming out of Baghdad, have we seen either one of Saddam Hussein’s sons in – since this campaign began?

ROBERTSON: At the very beginning of the campaign, we did. But perhaps what is very interesting about the latest video of President Saddam Hussein meeting with his cabinet ministers, and that came out for me, now that’s the day before yesterday, almost about 36 hours ago, that particular video was released. And what was significant was Qusay Saddam Hussein, President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son who is in charge of the Republican Guard, who is indeed in charge of the defense of Baghdad and the whole of that central portion of Iraq, all the way up to the Jordanian border just behind me here, right away across Iraq to the Iranian border, he was not in that video. And for analysts who study and watch this carefully, that is significant because they believe at these key meetings, he is a real driving force. He is the military and political commander designated for the central Iraq region. So very surprising that Qusay Saddam Hussein, the president’s younger son, very influential, the most – one of the most important figures, wasn’t present at that meeting, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Nic Robertson live in Amman. Thanks very much.

Now on to a forward air base in Iraq, where close air supports or ground troops continues as well. It is a very busy place, indeed at this hour. Bob Franken joins us now via videophone.

Bob, what’s the latest where you are?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we’ve come back to the main air base, which is on the Iraq border. And the reason is, is because this has become the scene of much more intense activity in the last day or so. In the last reporting period, as a matter of fact, the number of deployments, the number of air missions that have taken off in the entire war has nearly doubled, gone from about 1,000 a day average to about 1,800 a day. And this place overnight have been just a constant roar of jets taking off, to join battle in all over Iraq, including Baghdad. And taking on the Republican Guard, we’re told about a half of all the missions are used to attack the Republican Guard forces who of course have been the principle ones that the United States has been expecting to fight throughout this war. It looks like that war is getting closer. And so, there’s been much more of an emphasis on the Republican Guard. Now it is the first light of morning here. So what we’re seeing is more planes coming in, than taking off. Of course, they no longer have the cover of darkness or they’re returning to their own base. You can probably see a couple of them dusting past me now. There are an awful lot of A-10 planes that fly out of here. They now have an added advantage. The advantage is that newly opened forward air base where we were the last couple of days, Anderson, forward base where they can refuel. It means they can spend more time in the air. The A-10s, of course, are the ones used to support the ground forces so effectively. And they are going to be flying day and night, but all the bombing runs, all the F-16s, all the FA-18s that fly out of here have done the principle part of their war during the nighttime hours. And they’re returning to base here to fly in everyday – Anderson?

COOPER: Bob, you mentioned that the majority of the flights, I think some 50 to 60 percent of the flights right now are targeting these Republican Guard divisions, the Medina, the Hamarabi (ph), the Baghdad divisions. Do you have any sense of what the actual targets are? I mean, when they say they’re going after these divisions, are they going after the tanks, the artillery? Or are they going after where they believe these troops are sleeping? Is that known? Or I assume it’s all of the above?

FRANKEN: Well, it’s all of the above, but also, there’s a lot of flexibility here. The targets of opportunity is the key answer to this. But they know where these divisions are. The A-10s play a particular role because of their incredible effectiveness against tanks. The other point is, is that with that forward air base, it’s about 150 miles from here, with that forward air base, by the way, that’s information we’ve been cleared to give, that forward air base then suggests 45 to 30 more minutes that they can be in the area. So if something suddenly comes up, if a certain unit makes itself known, then they could suddenly just peel off and go after that unit.

So they’re looking for anything and everything. Obviously, very clearly, they’re trying to soften up the Republican Guard for the ground battle that looms ahead.

COOPER: All right, Bob Franken, appreciate it. Near the Iraqi border. We’ll probably come back to Bob in a couple hours. We’re going to be on the air for about four hours.

Now joining me for two of those hours is retired General Wesley Clark. He is in Little Rock, Arkansas. And we are pleased that he joins us tonight.

Thanks for being with us, general.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FMR. NATO SUPREME CMDR.: Good to be with you, Anderson.

COOPER: You know, you heard Bob Franken’s report. Some 1800 sorties or so in the last 24 hours. 60 percent of those targeting the Iraqi division. Does that surprise you that only some 20 percent have actually been hitting Baghdad? CLARK: No, I think the priorities sound exactly right to me, because what you’ve got is in Baghdad, you’ve got a certain number of fixed targets that you know about. And you have some mobile targets, like missile systems that may be moved from place to place. But you gradually work through the fixed target set. And what you want to do is transfer the air power over to the Republican Guards divisions.

The real question is how effective are we in actually taking out the Republican Guards divisions? So let me offer a couple of postulates on this thing. First of all, we did this operation in Kosovo against the Serbs. And we thought we were fairly effective. Afterwards, the results left on the battlefield didn’t support that. We went back and looked at all the tapes and so forth. And we still believe we were fairly effective, maybe not everything, but we were – we took the Serb forces down.

The way we did it was you fly high. You use binoculars. You used unmanned aerial vehicles. And you cruise. And you look and look and look at the terrain until you see things. And then you strike. And that’s what’s being done, I would guess, over these Iraqi Republican Guards divisions. So…

COOPER: And let’s – just to follow-up on Kosovo, I don’t want to speculate too much about the Republican Guard, what were you striking at? Were you looking for – oh, there’s an artillery piece? Or there’s a tank? Or was it – oh, there’s a trench? Let’s hit the trench? What kind of targets do that?

CLARK: All of that, all of that. You might see a tank backed into a house. You might see trucks moving. You might see tank tracks in a field. You might see in some cases troops working a treeline. And you would bring an unmanned aerovehicle over and look at the troops. And then you’d discover there was artillery hidden in there.

We probably struck some decoys, too, because that’s the nature of war. And so, for every claim you have to sort of discount 50 percent or so. If you think you struck and killed 100 tanks, you probably killed a lot of tanks, but maybe it wasn’t 100. Maybe it was 50 or 70 or 80. But in any event, it takes a certain amount of time to work this. And every day and every night, the coalition’s going to go up there.

Eventually, the Iraqis have to move. And when they move, they’re going to be vulnerable. And they’re going to be seen. And if they don’t move, after several days of this, the ground forces will begin to probe and push and force them to disclose their positions. Here’s a vice, they’re not going to get out of this successfully. The only question is how long does it take to close the vice?

COOPER: But now I’ve heard different accounts of what happened back in 1991. You know, there was a lot talk of the aerial bombardment of these Republican Guard positions. I’ve heard some commentators say it was very effective. I’ve heard others say it was not. What’s your take on it?

CLARK: Well, the Army went back afterwards and looked at all of the armored vehicles that were hit. And you know, at the time, the criteria was we’re going t destroy 50 percent of the armor before we advance. An actual, physical count of most of the areas, it looked like around 10 to 15 percent of the armor had been destroyed by air.

Some of it had been hit, but not destroyed. Some of it was decoyed. Some of it wasn’t hit. Some of it was abandoned. But whatever it was, the air took an enormous toll. And it opened the way for the ground forces. And that’s what we’re going to see here.

COOPER: All right, General Wesley Clark, you’ll be here for the next two hours. And we are very glad of that. And we’ll be calling on you quite a lot over the next hour and 45 minutes or so. All right, come back to you shortly.

We go to the north now. American bombers have been building a ring of fire, if you will, around the city of Mosul. It is quite a picture. The question is, how effective will it be until more troops get their boots on the ground?

Here’s CNN’s Ben Wedeman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bombs fall on the long and rugged northern front. While targets in and around the city of Mosul continue to take a pounding. Intensified coalition bombardment signaling mounting pressure on the Iraqi army’s forward positions in the north.

But in places, that pressure seems to have missed the mark. In Kalak, craters suggest all those bombs’ high explosive punch did little more than rearrange rocks on the hillside well below Iraqi trenches. And when planes aren’t flying overhead, Iraqi soldiers don’t appear to be particularly alarmed. Well away from the front, U.S. paratroopers of the 173rd Airborne Brigade are settling in to their new surroundings and await the arrival of heavier equipment.

Other Americans have gone into action in the north, helping Kurdish fighters pursue the Islamist radicals in Ansad Islam, a hard- line group that has been linked to Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda network. Here, at least, resistance was overcome.

(on camera): Despite the appearance of the war moving to the north, the coalition is far from having all its pieces in place here. According to Kurdish intelligence sources, there are more than 120,000 Iraqi soldiers arrayed in the north. The latest estimate for the number of U.S. troops here is one-one hundredth of that.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Kalak, northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: We are trying in the next hours and days, really, to give you a sense of what is going on at all times in all regions of the country. We’ve talked about Baghdad. We’ve talked about the north of Iraq. Let’s go now to the southern part of Iraq, where coalition forces have a lot of weapons at their disposal. They have tanks, they have heavy artillery. But they also have food and they have water and they have promises that when they say they are going to get rid of Saddam Hussein, they really mean it.

The latest now on winning over hearts and minds from Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It’s the very essence of life, and it’s slowly beginning to flow to the people of Umm Qasr. The British and U.S. military have jointly extended a water pipeline from Kuwait. And they’ve hired local drivers and tankers to take it into town.

MAJ. PHIL BOURNE, BRITISH ROYAL MARINES: We also (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hearts and minds, but this is a basic life support function that we’ve all taken for granted. And I think out of common humanity, being able to get people fresh water is probably the most important thing we can do for them initially.

MAJ. JIM THORPE, U.S. ARMY: We need the locals to be happy with the fact that we’re here. That’s our goal.

AMANPOUR: Indeed, that is a primary goal of this military campaign. But this effort got off to a slow start, as desperate towns folk clamored to fill jerry cans, bowls, and barrels. Confusion about whether they had to pay or not. The U.S. said no, the British said yes. And the military is in unfamiliar terrain, without the U.N. or NGO experts in humanitarian aid.

In this part of town, British Army assault engineers are fixing up a tap system. Fed up Iraqis watch. They’re wondering just when they’ll get their drinking water after hearing promises for days.

The pipeline point is at the British Marine’s base. And wall fighting continues there, too.

(on camera): This base is also used to stage offensive attacks. This is 42 Commando Brigade of the British Royal Marines. And they’re going now to fight off Iraqi infantry and tanks, which have burst out southeast of Basra.

(voice-over): These commandos say they are the point of the bayonet. Into this battle, they take just what they can carry, including anti tank weapons.

SGT. IAN BEERS, 42 COMMANDO ROYAL MARINES: We’re going to be anticipating getting quite up to the enemy and taking them on at close range.

PAUL LANG, MARINE, 42 COMMANDO ROYAL MARINES: We’re all expecting like a walkover, you know, them running out as hands in the air, you know, putting their weapons down. But there’s been a bit more resistance than we first expected. But you know, it’s still early stages, so. AMANPOUR: In an operation that lasted much of Sunday, the commandos captured five senior Iraqi Army officers and killed a Republican Guard colonel, according to military spokesmen. Civilians trying to leave from the west side of Basra towards British lines found themselves caught up in a firefight. According to a military photographer, British troops at this checkpoint came under attack from the Iraqi side and returned fire.

Psychological warfare continues, too. British tanks take out Basra’s TV tower, cutting Baghdad’s line to the people. Army bulldozers are smashing Saddam Hussein’s larger than life portrait in an apparent attempt to loosen his political grip. Over here in Umm Qasr, they’re not sure those tactics will work.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam maybe go, maybe strong Saddam. Strong man.

AMANPOUR: Still, the British keep hoping to weaken his hold. When the people started defacing these images, British soldiers offered them paint and brushes.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Umm Qasr in southern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, it is probably fair to say that the Department of Defense has itself grown defensive over the last few days, often reacting with irritation to some questions about how things are going. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld used the term I hadn’t heard before, at least. He said critics were hyperventilating. Let’s check now the breadth of our Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

Jamie, does it seem to you that things are getting a little defensive over at Pentagon?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, well they’re definitely on the defensive because they can see that they’ve been losing the perception war here, especially with a series of newspaper and magazine articles questioning the strategy here.

The Pentagon is trying to, as they say, stay on message though, making the point that the war plan is based on flexibility and the ability to adapt to the reality of the battlefield not a preconceived notion. They’re stressing again what is going on in the actual fighting.

Today, for instance, the air campaign was stepped up considerably. About almost 800 strike missions were carried out today, aiming at over 200 targets. And among those, about 60 percent of the strikes, we’re told by the Air Force, were aimed at the three Republican Guard divisions that are around Baghdad. The Medina Division, the Hamarabi (ph) Division, and the Baghdad Division.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHMN., JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We continue to press the attack. We continue to degrade the combat and effectiveness of these Iraqi Republican Guard divisions. Of course, we have other actions in securing the lines of communication and helping in An- Nasiriya, in Basra, in terms of ridding those cities of the death squads that are operating there and the Ba’ath Party folks that are still very loyal to the Iraqi regime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Now there were fires burning in downtown Baghdad today, as a result of – it appeared to be a result of the bombing. The Pentagon sources confirmed that the ministry of information was among the things targeted today. That was ostensibly to reduce Saddam Hussein’s command and control capabilities.

The U.S. also says they had somewhat of a historical footnote in the bombing. They say it’s the first time in military history that they’ve had three long range strike bombers, heavy bombers, the B-1, the B-2, and the B-52 all drop their munitions in the same geographical area in Baghdad, striking the leadership command and control targets, they say the first time that’s been done in history.

But again, the Pentagon is simply saying that people who are questioning this war plan simply don’t understand it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think it’s important to remind ourselves that what the world is seeing is 24 hours a day, 7 days week television news on this subject. It’s been going on nine days. It’s a little early for postmortems. It’s a little early to write history…

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says that General Franks plan was based never – never based on a limited number of troops, that it always involved over 300,000 troops. And it wasn’t a case where they put some of the troops in to see how well they did, and then when it didn’t go so well, they sent for more troops. They say the plan has always called for troops to continue to flow into Iraq, to provide both an opportunity for a quick victory, if that was possible, but enough troops, enough heavy armor to ensure a victory, even if it takes a while – Anderson?

COOPER: All right, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks.

There has been so much criticism of the military’s plans, so much pop punditry and cable news caterwauling, we wanted to talk to someone who closely follows military affairs. Joining us now in Washington is Dana Priest, “The Washington Post.” Her beat there has included the CIA and the Pentagon. Her book, “The Mission: Waging War and Keeping Peace with America’s Military” has just been published.

Dana, thanks for being with us. What do you make of this apparent disconnect between what troops on the ground, what Marines on the ground and soldiers are saying, and what is coming out of the brass at Centcom and the Pentagon?

DANA PRIEST, “THE WASHINGTON POST”: Well, it’s somewhat predictable. I would expect that the Pentagon and the leadership here would try to stay on message, try to show a strong face. They don’t want people demoralized. They don’t – they want to keep momentum. What’s unusual in this case is that you have 500 embedded reporters that the Pentagon let go there. And they are reporting ground truth as they see it.

The Pentagon talks about well, that’s only one snapshot. Each reporter, but you’ve got 500 snapshots a day. And you have some very experienced reporters talking to not just grunts, if you will, but the field commanders. And it is not just the pundits and retired generals who don’t understand the war plan or haven’t been privy to it who are criticizing it. It’s actually these field commanders, who are in charge of prosecuting the war, who say that they are surprised.

So it is – it’s not to be dismissed at all. It’s difficult to listen to the talk shows, as everybody did probably today, and then read the newspapers. And you certainly see a big disconnect. So I think that’s why.

COOPER: Well, there was this much quoted statement by Lieutenant General William Wallace, the commander of U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf, who said “the enemy were fighting is a bit different than the one we war gamed against.” And there was a lot of discussion about that, but then I just read this article in Slate.com. I just read it today, which basically was indicating that actually, they have this war game, the Millennium Challenge ’02 they called it. And that there actually was someone who was sort of playing the tactic – using some of the tactics that the Iraqi regulars were using. Some guy, a retired three star U.S. Marine Corps general…

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Aired March 30, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You are looking at a live picture of Baghdad. A hazy morning in Baghdad. 6:00 a.m. after a night that has seen a lot of activity in the skies over that capitol.
Good evening I’m Anderson Cooper. Welcome to this expanded edition of NEWSNIGHT.

We begin as we always do with a look at the broad themes of the day. There was toughness from the air, defensiveness from Washington, and on the ground, another day of challenges.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): Whether it was continuing night time attacks on the Iraqi capitol, or daytime helicopter assaults on Iraqi positions in the central part of the country, coalition air power was dominant again on day 12 of the war. Even though American commanders denied there was a pause in the ground action, for many, rest and resupply seemed the order of the day.

CNN’s Art Harris is with the Marines in Nasiriya, scene of some of the heaviest fighting of the war.

ART HARRIS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Marines tell me they have accomplished their objective in Nasiriya, which is to keep the bridges and roads open, so the supply train can roll north, resupplying troops, all the way to Baghdad.

COOPER: Three major American ground units are in position to the south and west of Baghdad. But there has been no significant movement by any of them for the past few days. To the north, American and Kurdish fighters are holding their ground, but as of yet, there aren’t enough troops for a major advance on the oil city of Kirkuk.

The first pictures arrived of the aftermath of that deadly suicide car bombing in the city of Najaf. Suicide attacks have been discussed by Central Command, but General Tommy Franks said this attack was in one sense remarkable.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CMDR. IN CHIEF, CENTRAL COMMAND: Remarkable, though, is the connection all the way to the top of the Iraqi regime, where if my Arabic serves me well, that attack was just endorsed by those in power.

COOPER: In the wake of the suicide attacks, it seems tactics may have changed. These aerial pictures show what is now standard operating procedure, unknown vehicles are quickly surrounded, maximum forces is applied. Military spokesmen say drivers of two other vehicles were shot when they refused to stop as ordered.

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT, WITH 101ST AIRBORNE: These men walked up to a long range artillery position and asked to surrender.

COOPER: Not far from Najaf, these prisoners were identified as members of the Fedayeen, the militia group which has caused so much trouble for American troops in several Iraqi cities.

In the far south, around Basra, a pipe carrying precious water into the city was also completed. Not all was well, however. Al- Jazeera Television ran these pictures of a coalition tank badly disabled outside Basra. And a Marine helicopter crashed in southern Iraq, an accident, it seemed. Three on board perished.

In the north, near the city of Mosul, American B-52s dropped their bombs along a ridgeline occupied by Iraqi soldiers. In Kuwait, one American soldier was hurt and a dozen or so others injured slightly when a truck, driven by an Egyptian man, drove into a crowded post exchange store.

The military battle continues. So too the battle for Iraqi hearts and minds. Murals of Saddam Hussein are being destroyed, but until the man and his regime are eliminated, hearts and minds might be a difficult battle to win.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, Pentagon officials keep stressing that there is no pause in the push towards Baghdad. Putting aside what is happening with the troops on the ground, it is clear that in the campaign from the air, there is no hint of a pause. If anything, the air strikes are increasing. Some 1800 sorties today alone. 75 runs every hour. The Air Force said only 20 percent of its strikes have actually targeted sites in Baghdad. Nevertheless, explosions have rocked the Iraqi capitol.

CNN’s Nic Robertson is just over the border in Jordan – Nic?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Anderson. Those explosions have been going on all night. Just before dawn, one of the night scope cameras surveying the horizon in Baghdad was able to pick up, it wasn’t able to see, but it was able to pick up several loud explosions.

And those explosions, we’re told, going off according to reporters in Baghdad, at least say that those were explosions were going off in a presidential compound in the center of Baghdad, about four hours before. At about 2:00 or 3:00 in the morning Baghdad time, there were more loud explosions. These coming very close to camera positions again, very close to Iraq’s ministry of information, just behind the 28th of April Shopping Center. That shopping center named after President Saddam Hussein’s birthday.

Not clear exactly what was hit and what was burning there, but certainly, very close to the ministry of information and very close to those apartment buildings, that residential area just behind the ministry of information. And a little earlier in the evening, a huge oil fire very close to center of Baghdad, big pools of black smoke coming up from the yellow-orange flames from what appeared to be an oil fire.

Now it’s not clear if this was an oil fire set by Iraqi officials to drive black smoke into the sky to cloud the vision of coalition pilots or whether or not this indeed was an – was a fuel storage depot that was hit in a coalition sortie over the capitol of Baghdad, but certainly a very busy night over the capitol.

One other interesting piece of information yesterday from a Red Cross official in Baghdad, a member of the International Committee for the Red Cross, who was able to visit some of the hospitals in Baghdad. He said he could confirm Iraq’s figures of approximately 100 people every day turning up at those hospitals in Baghdad. He said men, women and children were among the injured. And for what he could see and what Iraqi officials were telling him, at this time at least, Iraq has enough medical supplies to treat its injured – Anderson?

COOPER: Nic, you mentioned officials from the International Committee of the Red Cross. Do – is there any information on whether or not they have been able to visit American POWs being held by the Iraqi regime?

ROBERTSON: From what they were telling us late yesterday about 12 hours ago now, they had at that time not been able to visit the members of coalition forces who have been captured by Iraqi forces. No reason given. They say that is something that they want to do, but they were able to say at least that they had been to hospitals in the Baghdad area, and checked up on those still waiting to meet with POWs – Anderson.

COOPER: And Nic, I know you often monitor Iraqi television. Is Iraqi satellite TV still on the air? And do you know if domestic television is still on the air in Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Anderson, the best way that we can monitor that at the moment is the talk with journalists who are inside Baghdad. That’s very difficult for us. Iraqi officials demand that other journalists in Baghdad don’t pass information to CNN. That was part of the restrictions when they threw the CNN team of Baghdad. So it’s very difficult to give you accurate information.

But the last conversation we had indicated that Iraq’s domestic television channel was going on and off the air. But it’s not clear of exactly where it stands at the moment.

COOPER: And can you give us a sense – I mean, you mentioned this palace that might’ve belonged to Saddam Hussein’s son or one of his sons. Can you give us a sense of – I mean, how many palaces do these sons have, do these kids have in the city?

ROBERTSON: They have a lot of palaces, and not just in the city, but in the outskirts. From what we understand, the palace that was hit this evening is a very large area. It’s about two miles long, about a mile or so wide, maybe even a mile and a half. It sits on the bank of the Tigris River that runs right through the center of Baghdad. It is there in the middle of Baghdad. There are many, many buildings in it. And it’s not clear, the cameras didn’t capture which building was actually impacted tonight.

But of the many, many buildings in there, some of them are huge. Some of the buildings themselves would cover several soccer fields. So it would take many hits or many nights by coalition forces to completely destroy those buildings and perhaps that is why they’ve been revisiting some of these targets that they’ve already been hitting, Anderson.

COOPER: And Nic, finally, I’m trying to remember in the videos that we have seen coming out of Baghdad, have we seen either one of Saddam Hussein’s sons in – since this campaign began?

ROBERTSON: At the very beginning of the campaign, we did. But perhaps what is very interesting about the latest video of President Saddam Hussein meeting with his cabinet ministers, and that came out for me, now that’s the day before yesterday, almost about 36 hours ago, that particular video was released. And what was significant was Qusay Saddam Hussein, President Saddam Hussein’s youngest son who is in charge of the Republican Guard, who is indeed in charge of the defense of Baghdad and the whole of that central portion of Iraq, all the way up to the Jordanian border just behind me here, right away across Iraq to the Iranian border, he was not in that video. And for analysts who study and watch this carefully, that is significant because they believe at these key meetings, he is a real driving force. He is the military and political commander designated for the central Iraq region. So very surprising that Qusay Saddam Hussein, the president’s younger son, very influential, the most – one of the most important figures, wasn’t present at that meeting, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Nic Robertson live in Amman. Thanks very much.

Now on to a forward air base in Iraq, where close air supports or ground troops continues as well. It is a very busy place, indeed at this hour. Bob Franken joins us now via videophone.

Bob, what’s the latest where you are?

BOB FRANKEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, we’ve come back to the main air base, which is on the Iraq border. And the reason is, is because this has become the scene of much more intense activity in the last day or so. In the last reporting period, as a matter of fact, the number of deployments, the number of air missions that have taken off in the entire war has nearly doubled, gone from about 1,000 a day average to about 1,800 a day. And this place overnight have been just a constant roar of jets taking off, to join battle in all over Iraq, including Baghdad. And taking on the Republican Guard, we’re told about a half of all the missions are used to attack the Republican Guard forces who of course have been the principle ones that the United States has been expecting to fight throughout this war. It looks like that war is getting closer. And so, there’s been much more of an emphasis on the Republican Guard. Now it is the first light of morning here. So what we’re seeing is more planes coming in, than taking off. Of course, they no longer have the cover of darkness or they’re returning to their own base. You can probably see a couple of them dusting past me now. There are an awful lot of A-10 planes that fly out of here. They now have an added advantage. The advantage is that newly opened forward air base where we were the last couple of days, Anderson, forward base where they can refuel. It means they can spend more time in the air. The A-10s, of course, are the ones used to support the ground forces so effectively. And they are going to be flying day and night, but all the bombing runs, all the F-16s, all the FA-18s that fly out of here have done the principle part of their war during the nighttime hours. And they’re returning to base here to fly in everyday – Anderson?

COOPER: Bob, you mentioned that the majority of the flights, I think some 50 to 60 percent of the flights right now are targeting these Republican Guard divisions, the Medina, the Hamarabi (ph), the Baghdad divisions. Do you have any sense of what the actual targets are? I mean, when they say they’re going after these divisions, are they going after the tanks, the artillery? Or are they going after where they believe these troops are sleeping? Is that known? Or I assume it’s all of the above?

FRANKEN: Well, it’s all of the above, but also, there’s a lot of flexibility here. The targets of opportunity is the key answer to this. But they know where these divisions are. The A-10s play a particular role because of their incredible effectiveness against tanks. The other point is, is that with that forward air base, it’s about 150 miles from here, with that forward air base, by the way, that’s information we’ve been cleared to give, that forward air base then suggests 45 to 30 more minutes that they can be in the area. So if something suddenly comes up, if a certain unit makes itself known, then they could suddenly just peel off and go after that unit.

So they’re looking for anything and everything. Obviously, very clearly, they’re trying to soften up the Republican Guard for the ground battle that looms ahead.

COOPER: All right, Bob Franken, appreciate it. Near the Iraqi border. We’ll probably come back to Bob in a couple hours. We’re going to be on the air for about four hours.

Now joining me for two of those hours is retired General Wesley Clark. He is in Little Rock, Arkansas. And we are pleased that he joins us tonight.

Thanks for being with us, general.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), FMR. NATO SUPREME CMDR.: Good to be with you, Anderson.

COOPER: You know, you heard Bob Franken’s report. Some 1800 sorties or so in the last 24 hours. 60 percent of those targeting the Iraqi division. Does that surprise you that only some 20 percent have actually been hitting Baghdad? CLARK: No, I think the priorities sound exactly right to me, because what you’ve got is in Baghdad, you’ve got a certain number of fixed targets that you know about. And you have some mobile targets, like missile systems that may be moved from place to place. But you gradually work through the fixed target set. And what you want to do is transfer the air power over to the Republican Guards divisions.

The real question is how effective are we in actually taking out the Republican Guards divisions? So let me offer a couple of postulates on this thing. First of all, we did this operation in Kosovo against the Serbs. And we thought we were fairly effective. Afterwards, the results left on the battlefield didn’t support that. We went back and looked at all the tapes and so forth. And we still believe we were fairly effective, maybe not everything, but we were – we took the Serb forces down.

The way we did it was you fly high. You use binoculars. You used unmanned aerial vehicles. And you cruise. And you look and look and look at the terrain until you see things. And then you strike. And that’s what’s being done, I would guess, over these Iraqi Republican Guards divisions. So…

COOPER: And let’s – just to follow-up on Kosovo, I don’t want to speculate too much about the Republican Guard, what were you striking at? Were you looking for – oh, there’s an artillery piece? Or there’s a tank? Or was it – oh, there’s a trench? Let’s hit the trench? What kind of targets do that?

CLARK: All of that, all of that. You might see a tank backed into a house. You might see trucks moving. You might see tank tracks in a field. You might see in some cases troops working a treeline. And you would bring an unmanned aerovehicle over and look at the troops. And then you’d discover there was artillery hidden in there.

We probably struck some decoys, too, because that’s the nature of war. And so, for every claim you have to sort of discount 50 percent or so. If you think you struck and killed 100 tanks, you probably killed a lot of tanks, but maybe it wasn’t 100. Maybe it was 50 or 70 or 80. But in any event, it takes a certain amount of time to work this. And every day and every night, the coalition’s going to go up there.

Eventually, the Iraqis have to move. And when they move, they’re going to be vulnerable. And they’re going to be seen. And if they don’t move, after several days of this, the ground forces will begin to probe and push and force them to disclose their positions. Here’s a vice, they’re not going to get out of this successfully. The only question is how long does it take to close the vice?

COOPER: But now I’ve heard different accounts of what happened back in 1991. You know, there was a lot talk of the aerial bombardment of these Republican Guard positions. I’ve heard some commentators say it was very effective. I’ve heard others say it was not. What’s your take on it?

CLARK: Well, the Army went back afterwards and looked at all of the armored vehicles that were hit. And you know, at the time, the criteria was we’re going t destroy 50 percent of the armor before we advance. An actual, physical count of most of the areas, it looked like around 10 to 15 percent of the armor had been destroyed by air.

Some of it had been hit, but not destroyed. Some of it was decoyed. Some of it wasn’t hit. Some of it was abandoned. But whatever it was, the air took an enormous toll. And it opened the way for the ground forces. And that’s what we’re going to see here.

COOPER: All right, General Wesley Clark, you’ll be here for the next two hours. And we are very glad of that. And we’ll be calling on you quite a lot over the next hour and 45 minutes or so. All right, come back to you shortly.

We go to the north now. American bombers have been building a ring of fire, if you will, around the city of Mosul. It is quite a picture. The question is, how effective will it be until more troops get their boots on the ground?

Here’s CNN’s Ben Wedeman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Bombs fall on the long and rugged northern front. While targets in and around the city of Mosul continue to take a pounding. Intensified coalition bombardment signaling mounting pressure on the Iraqi army’s forward positions in the north.

But in places, that pressure seems to have missed the mark. In Kalak, craters suggest all those bombs’ high explosive punch did little more than rearrange rocks on the hillside well below Iraqi trenches. And when planes aren’t flying overhead, Iraqi soldiers don’t appear to be particularly alarmed. Well away from the front, U.S. paratroopers of the 173rd Airborne Brigade are settling in to their new surroundings and await the arrival of heavier equipment.

Other Americans have gone into action in the north, helping Kurdish fighters pursue the Islamist radicals in Ansad Islam, a hard- line group that has been linked to Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda network. Here, at least, resistance was overcome.

(on camera): Despite the appearance of the war moving to the north, the coalition is far from having all its pieces in place here. According to Kurdish intelligence sources, there are more than 120,000 Iraqi soldiers arrayed in the north. The latest estimate for the number of U.S. troops here is one-one hundredth of that.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Kalak, northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: We are trying in the next hours and days, really, to give you a sense of what is going on at all times in all regions of the country. We’ve talked about Baghdad. We’ve talked about the north of Iraq. Let’s go now to the southern part of Iraq, where coalition forces have a lot of weapons at their disposal. They have tanks, they have heavy artillery. But they also have food and they have water and they have promises that when they say they are going to get rid of Saddam Hussein, they really mean it.

The latest now on winning over hearts and minds from Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It’s the very essence of life, and it’s slowly beginning to flow to the people of Umm Qasr. The British and U.S. military have jointly extended a water pipeline from Kuwait. And they’ve hired local drivers and tankers to take it into town.

MAJ. PHIL BOURNE, BRITISH ROYAL MARINES: We also (UNINTELLIGIBLE) hearts and minds, but this is a basic life support function that we’ve all taken for granted. And I think out of common humanity, being able to get people fresh water is probably the most important thing we can do for them initially.

MAJ. JIM THORPE, U.S. ARMY: We need the locals to be happy with the fact that we’re here. That’s our goal.

AMANPOUR: Indeed, that is a primary goal of this military campaign. But this effort got off to a slow start, as desperate towns folk clamored to fill jerry cans, bowls, and barrels. Confusion about whether they had to pay or not. The U.S. said no, the British said yes. And the military is in unfamiliar terrain, without the U.N. or NGO experts in humanitarian aid.

In this part of town, British Army assault engineers are fixing up a tap system. Fed up Iraqis watch. They’re wondering just when they’ll get their drinking water after hearing promises for days.

The pipeline point is at the British Marine’s base. And wall fighting continues there, too.

(on camera): This base is also used to stage offensive attacks. This is 42 Commando Brigade of the British Royal Marines. And they’re going now to fight off Iraqi infantry and tanks, which have burst out southeast of Basra.

(voice-over): These commandos say they are the point of the bayonet. Into this battle, they take just what they can carry, including anti tank weapons.

SGT. IAN BEERS, 42 COMMANDO ROYAL MARINES: We’re going to be anticipating getting quite up to the enemy and taking them on at close range.

PAUL LANG, MARINE, 42 COMMANDO ROYAL MARINES: We’re all expecting like a walkover, you know, them running out as hands in the air, you know, putting their weapons down. But there’s been a bit more resistance than we first expected. But you know, it’s still early stages, so. AMANPOUR: In an operation that lasted much of Sunday, the commandos captured five senior Iraqi Army officers and killed a Republican Guard colonel, according to military spokesmen. Civilians trying to leave from the west side of Basra towards British lines found themselves caught up in a firefight. According to a military photographer, British troops at this checkpoint came under attack from the Iraqi side and returned fire.

Psychological warfare continues, too. British tanks take out Basra’s TV tower, cutting Baghdad’s line to the people. Army bulldozers are smashing Saddam Hussein’s larger than life portrait in an apparent attempt to loosen his political grip. Over here in Umm Qasr, they’re not sure those tactics will work.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam maybe go, maybe strong Saddam. Strong man.

AMANPOUR: Still, the British keep hoping to weaken his hold. When the people started defacing these images, British soldiers offered them paint and brushes.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Umm Qasr in southern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, it is probably fair to say that the Department of Defense has itself grown defensive over the last few days, often reacting with irritation to some questions about how things are going. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld used the term I hadn’t heard before, at least. He said critics were hyperventilating. Let’s check now the breadth of our Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

Jamie, does it seem to you that things are getting a little defensive over at Pentagon?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Oh, well they’re definitely on the defensive because they can see that they’ve been losing the perception war here, especially with a series of newspaper and magazine articles questioning the strategy here.

The Pentagon is trying to, as they say, stay on message though, making the point that the war plan is based on flexibility and the ability to adapt to the reality of the battlefield not a preconceived notion. They’re stressing again what is going on in the actual fighting.

Today, for instance, the air campaign was stepped up considerably. About almost 800 strike missions were carried out today, aiming at over 200 targets. And among those, about 60 percent of the strikes, we’re told by the Air Force, were aimed at the three Republican Guard divisions that are around Baghdad. The Medina Division, the Hamarabi (ph) Division, and the Baghdad Division.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHMN., JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We continue to press the attack. We continue to degrade the combat and effectiveness of these Iraqi Republican Guard divisions. Of course, we have other actions in securing the lines of communication and helping in An- Nasiriya, in Basra, in terms of ridding those cities of the death squads that are operating there and the Ba’ath Party folks that are still very loyal to the Iraqi regime.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Now there were fires burning in downtown Baghdad today, as a result of – it appeared to be a result of the bombing. The Pentagon sources confirmed that the ministry of information was among the things targeted today. That was ostensibly to reduce Saddam Hussein’s command and control capabilities.

The U.S. also says they had somewhat of a historical footnote in the bombing. They say it’s the first time in military history that they’ve had three long range strike bombers, heavy bombers, the B-1, the B-2, and the B-52 all drop their munitions in the same geographical area in Baghdad, striking the leadership command and control targets, they say the first time that’s been done in history.

But again, the Pentagon is simply saying that people who are questioning this war plan simply don’t understand it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think it’s important to remind ourselves that what the world is seeing is 24 hours a day, 7 days week television news on this subject. It’s been going on nine days. It’s a little early for postmortems. It’s a little early to write history…

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon says that General Franks plan was based never – never based on a limited number of troops, that it always involved over 300,000 troops. And it wasn’t a case where they put some of the troops in to see how well they did, and then when it didn’t go so well, they sent for more troops. They say the plan has always called for troops to continue to flow into Iraq, to provide both an opportunity for a quick victory, if that was possible, but enough troops, enough heavy armor to ensure a victory, even if it takes a while – Anderson?

COOPER: All right, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks.

There has been so much criticism of the military’s plans, so much pop punditry and cable news caterwauling, we wanted to talk to someone who closely follows military affairs. Joining us now in Washington is Dana Priest, “The Washington Post.” Her beat there has included the CIA and the Pentagon. Her book, “The Mission: Waging War and Keeping Peace with America’s Military” has just been published.

Dana, thanks for being with us. What do you make of this apparent disconnect between what troops on the ground, what Marines on the ground and soldiers are saying, and what is coming out of the brass at Centcom and the Pentagon?

DANA PRIEST, “THE WASHINGTON POST”: Well, it’s somewhat predictable. I would expect that the Pentagon and the leadership here would try to stay on message, try to show a strong face. They don’t want people demoralized. They don’t – they want to keep momentum. What’s unusual in this case is that you have 500 embedded reporters that the Pentagon let go there. And they are reporting ground truth as they see it.

The Pentagon talks about well, that’s only one snapshot. Each reporter, but you’ve got 500 snapshots a day. And you have some very experienced reporters talking to not just grunts, if you will, but the field commanders. And it is not just the pundits and retired generals who don’t understand the war plan or haven’t been privy to it who are criticizing it. It’s actually these field commanders, who are in charge of prosecuting the war, who say that they are surprised.

So it is – it’s not to be dismissed at all. It’s difficult to listen to the talk shows, as everybody did probably today, and then read the newspapers. And you certainly see a big disconnect. So I think that’s why.

COOPER: Well, there was this much quoted statement by Lieutenant General William Wallace, the commander of U.S. forces in the Persian Gulf, who said “the enemy were fighting is a bit different than the one we war gamed against.” And there was a lot of discussion about that, but then I just read this article in Slate.com. I just read it today, which basically was indicating that actually, they have this war game, the Millennium Challenge ’02 they called it. And that there actually was someone who was sort of playing the tactic – using some of the tactics that the Iraqi regulars were using. Some guy, a retired three star U.S. Marine Corps general…

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