Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Bombing Continues in Baghdad as U.S. Forces Hold Renamed Airport
Aired April 04, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, ANCHOR: Well, good evening again, everyone. It's a day of digging in, of holding on, a day to solidify positions. But it's also been of some disquieting news. A suicide bombing, the second, and also evidence that foreigners have joined the fight on the Iraqi side. None of that likely to change the final outcome, but certainly could change the cost to the Americans and the British who are fighting the war.
We begin, as we do each night, with the pieces of the puzzle, the big ones and the small ones. To tell the story of heavy fighting, of great progress, and most of all of the uncertainty that lies ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Bombs once again fell on Baghdad, but for the first time, there were indications the assaults were not just from the air, but shelling from the coalitions' artillery, close enough now to inflict damage. The airport was under control; that much seemed certain. The hulk of one destroyed Iraqi jetliner clearly visible. But in a way, the day's most arresting pictures came from the streets of Baghdad.
Iraqi television broadcast these images of a man who looked exactly like Saddam Hussein; tightly guarded, but obviously in good health. His image also appeared on state television, congratulating his fighters. To the Pentagon it wasn't important.
VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: And what really matters is not whether or not he is dead or alive, but the fact of whoever is left in this regime, whatever is left of the regime leadership, got up today and realized they have less and less control of their country.
BROWN: If the newly renamed Baghdad International Airport was considered secure, the immediate neighborhoods around it were not. Elements of the Army's 3rd Infantry division celebrated as a watchtower on the airport's perimeter was destroyed. To even get there, soldiers had to crawl up steep concrete embankments to gain the high ground. Firefights between the Army and the Iraqi Republican Guard sent gunfire crackling through the trees.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The battle rages through most of day, though the deck is overwhelmingly stack in favor of the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division.
BROWN: On the opposite of the Iraqi capital, CNN's Karl Penhaul watched as the Army's 82nd Airborne swept through an Iraqi town on the southeastern approaches to Baghdad. And, as on every day of the war thus far, American artillery continued its efforts to inflict as much punishment, as much death as possible on Iraqi troops.
Central Command, meantime, release released this still photo of what it said was a collection of unidentified powder and liquids found near Baghdad. No confirmation about chemical or biological agents. Nothing here should be assumed.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's a slow and steady battle going on here for control of the key bridge. It's a bridge over the river on the main road to Mosul.
BROWN: Far less intense fighting, but equally dangerous could be seen in the northern part of the country. CNN's Jane Arraf found herself in a clash between Kurds, their American allies, and the Iraqi army. American air power was called in; the Iraqis subdued.
And Al-Jazeera television showed this woman, who said she was ready to be a suicide bomber. And apparently was. The network believed she was responsible for the suicide bombing attack that killed three American soldiers at a checkpoint north of Baghdad.
And in the central city of Najaf, American commanders felt it was safe enough to hold a field ceremony. Purple hearts awarded.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's thank all of them for what they have done for our country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The big picture of the day. And now we'll spend some time putting in the small pieces of the puzzle. Again, we will begin where we spent so much of the night last night, in and around Baghdad International Airport, a dozen miles from the city. You saw on the -- just a moment ago, how that fight has gone, and it's still a fight, trying to clear that area out, make the airport useable to control essentially the airport itself, but it is that wide area around it that now must be cleared out and control.
Much of last night was spent with CNN correspondent Walt Rodgers, who is embedded with the 7th Calvary. And that's where we will begin again tonight, with Walt outside of Baghdad.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. And good evening.
Let me begin by giving you a few headlines. The 7th Cavalry, as its continued its fighting several miles away from the Baghdad International Airport, has a few things to report. First, they have begun to encounter Republican Guard units, some rather heavy armored units.
Additionally, another headline, very interesting. As they take prisoners, and as they inspect cars and even military vehicles fleeing the city, they're finding Iraqis particularly of rank and station fleeing with suitcases full of money. That suggests even greater panic inside the city.
And again, the third headline, a major tank engagement between the 7th Calvary yesterday. To flesh in those details, put some color in that, joining us is now is Lieutenant Colonel Terry Ferrel. He's the commander of 3rd Squadron 7th Cavalry. Colonel Ferrel, begin please by telling us about that tank battle.
LT. COL. TERR FERREL, COMMANDER, 3-7TH CAVALRY: Well, we got a initial report yesterday afternoon that there was potentially about 20 to 30 vehicles that was located a few kilometers to our north. We put together a package that we could go forward and identify and get (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on to see if it was actually there.
Utilizing a ground force by Alpha Troop and then portions of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and artillery, we identified that force and discovered there was approximately a battalion's worth or more of enemy armor and artillery forward of us at about three kilometers.
RODGERS: How much is a battalion, for our viewers?
FERREL: What we looked at last night was somewhere in the neighborhood of about 20 tanks was there. Approximately six to seven BMPs. And then associated armored systems that go along with it. So approximately 40 vehicles, armored systems was in that location.
RODGERS: Of Republican Guard?
FERREL: What we determined was it was a mixture. It definitely was Republican Guards, based on the type of equipment they had, and they're willingness to fight and how they fought, and the uniforms that the soldiers were wearing that we encountered. So yes.
RODGERS: So when you detected that battalion of Iraqi armor, what did you do?
FERREL: As soon as we detected that battalion of Iraqi armor, we engaged it with direct and indirect fires, as well as CAS (ph). And brought all systems to bear to destroy that force before it could engage the force that was approaching.
RODGERS: Now what does that mean? You sent your tanks force on force against their tanks?
FERREL: We utilize our tanks and the advantages our tanks have against their systems to destroy them from a distance. First we engage with CAS (ph), and then we brought the artillery in to set the conditions for our armor systems to close with (ph) and destroy their ground force.
RODGERS: You're not using helicopters here. Too dangerous?
FERREL: Right now, the ADA (ph) threat is extremely high. And to prevent any risk that we can avoid, we are keeping the KWs and our helicopters as standoff, utilizing them in a different part our operation. Working in conjunction with the squadron, but not right here with the ground force.
RODGERS: Tell us about the Iraqi resistance that you are seeing. Are they fighting well, are they fighting sporadically?
FERREL: What you see right now and what we are observing within our area of operations is, the forces that we encounter, approximately 50 percent or so are fighting very well, very aggressive, and very well organized. At the same time, you will discover there are systems that are unmanned and just parked, and there's no fight there.
RODGERS: So what's the military situation overall around Baghdad at this hour as best you can tell us?
FERREL: The best I can tell you at this time, we are successfully occupying positions around the area of operations. There is armor threats there that we are currently seek out and destroying. And all of the U.S. -- to the best of my capability and knowledge, all of the forces that we have operating in the area are being very successful and accomplishing all of this set objectives.
RODGERS: If you could place a timeline on how long the battle for Baghdad will go on, what would your best estimate be? Realizing it can only be a guess at this point.
FERREL: If I could guess and that and be accurate, I would love to do that, because I would like to tell my soldiers that. I do not know. The resistance that we see on the outer ring is stiff but not overly -- it's not stopping our progress. Inside the city, I do not know what we will face.
RODGERS: Tell us about the airport condition. The 3rd Infantry Division seized the airport yesterday. It was reinforced last night. What's the situation at the airport, just a few miles from where we are?
FERREL: Just a few miles from where we are the airport is secure. U.S. forces are on that airfield.
They operate it. They own it. And they're able to conduct operations out of that facility as we start to establish the security ring that we put together here.
RODGERS: But the area around the airport, beyond the perimeters, hostile? Or is the 101st pushing outward?
FERREL: The other unit, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is working in and around the area as well, tied in with the third ID (ph). And there are areas that are of light resistance. We still see a large number of ambushes with small arms, machine guns, RPGs as a movement through the area, but no major resistance in and around those locations.
RODGERS: What happened at airport last night? Did they take shelling?
FERREL: Throughout the area of operation, we did experience some incoming of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) caliber mortar and large caliber mortar shells. And some rounds were absorbed in that location.
RODGERS: Have there been any shortcomings in the U.S. operation which you have seen so far? Things that you would like to have had but you didn't have by way of equipment or support?
FERREL: No. There's been a lot of discussion about that. But I will tell you that my organization, specifically focused in-house here, has had all of the resources that we need to accomplish our mission. And given the distance that we've traveled, the type of enemy force that we have fought continuously, we've had more than sufficient equipment and personnel to accomplish that task.
RODGERS: And one other question. What about the enemy kills? How many tracked vehicles, tanks and so forth have 7th Calvary taken out? Also the mortality rate on the Iraqi fatalities?
FERREL: Based our progress over the last few days, we have destroyed or engaged and destroyed up to 30 combat system tanks and another 15 to 20 armored systems. Numerous AVA (ph) systems that are in the direct fire mode. And the dismounted force, we've encountered large numbers of dismounts, but I cannot accurately place a number on that.
RODGERS: So you would say the Iraqis, in their defensive, Baghdad, are wounded but not out of action?
FERREL: The contact that we have, they're still in contact with us. So they are continuing to fight, and we will continue to succeed and move through that objective.
RODGERS: And what would you expect in the next eight to 12 hours?
FERREL: In the next eight to 12 hours, the squadron will continue to progress in and around our area of operations and move forward and verify the location we were at last night. If any repositioning occurred and what the actual armor threat was.
RODGERS: Lieutenant Colonel Terry Ferrel. I wonder, Aaron, is there a question you'd like me to onpass to the commander of this 7th Cavalry?
BROWN: Yes, sir. I'd like you to onpass the following question: Are the Iraqis fighting in an organized way that makes it seem that they still have, at some level at least, command and control in play?
RODGERS: I have to repeat the question to you, Colonel. Are the Iraqis fighting in an organized way or are they disorganized? Do you think their command and control structure is still in place? From what you've seen, what do you judge over the past few days?
FERREL: I believe it's still an organized resistance. It's not a large-scale organized resistance, but the pockets that we encounter, it's combined arms. They are able to utilize all of resources they have, the same as we do, and fight to bring those to bear. So there's a C-2 structure. At lower levels, I cannot confirm or deny how high the C-2 is still intact. But at our level, we still see organized command and control.
RODGERS: There were supposed to be other Iraqi Republican Guard divisions, Nebekanezer, I believe, Hammurabi, Adnon (ph). Were those phantom divisions? We haven't seen them; where are they? Do they exist?
FERREL: No, they're not phantom divisions. They do exist. That's true.
There has been a lot of repositioning and allocation of forces in and around the entire area within Baghdad city and the adjoining areas. And you start to find that, as we encountered yesterday, we discovered multiple units, we believe, based on our assessment that have maybe possibly merged together.
So they are there. We are not confirming or denying they have moved to certain locations yet. But it looks as though they have merged in some of the units together.
RODGERS: Lieutenant Colonel Terry Ferrel, thanks very much. Aaron, anything else from you -- yes?
BROWN: No, but I think we have one from General Wes -- I think we have a question from General Wesley Clark. General, do you have a question here?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Aaron, it's not a question. But I think that we have seen so much of this Cav squadron. We've got the squadron commander on now. I just think we ought to say on behalf of all of us who have seen it, congratulations to the leadership and the troopers and the squadron. They've displayed enormous discipline and professionalism, and we're proud of them and we want them to stay safe and finish their work over there.
BROWN: Walt, why don't you pass that on to Colonel Ferrel.
RODGERS: Glad to do that. Good talking with you both. Colonel Ferrel, that's General Clark saying you have done a superb job out here and wants to pass on his congratulations. General Wesley Clark saying that the whole country is very proud of you and your unit, sir.
FERREL: Thank you, sir.
RODGERS: Again, Aaron, back to you. Just a few headlines. 7th Calvary has indeed engaged Republican Guard units in the past several hours. Overnight a major tank battle.
Again, more Iraqi tanks put out of commission. Also very important, they're seeing increasingly Iraqis of position in rank fleeing the city with suitcases full of money. Back to you, Aaron.
BROWN: Walt, thank you very much. "Stiff, but is not stopping our progress," is the quote I wrote down from the colonel. It is true, as General Clark said, we have followed this group since the earliest moments of their crossing the border. And to see them where they are now is something. And what they are involved in. Baghdad is where we go next. For the first time, as you look at the city on a Saturday morning now in Baghdad, we are beginning to hear reports of gunfire in parts of the city, of Special Forces on the ground now in places. Not for the first time though. We hear explosions well.
We are seeing Iraqis flee the city, as Walt just indicated. The leadership perhaps starting to unravel. But into the mix today, also come those pictures of Saddam Hussein out there on the stump almost like a politician.
So it's an odd mix, and it's hard to know how to put all of pieces of the Baghdad and the regime puzzle into a coherent picture. For that, we turn to Nic Robertson, who is on the Jordanian-Iraqi border, and keeping track of his sources in Baghdad itself. Nic, good to see you tonight.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Aaron. Well I heard from my sources a few times throughout the night. They did tell me that from their position in the center of the city they could tell that people were -- families, civilians were actually leaving the city.
They reported a number of explosions in the southeast of the city, an area that we know coalition forces are head towards at this time. They also reported some heavy machine gunfire in the center of city. At one moment, bullets coming past the location they were in, which is atypical, certainly been atypical of the conflict so far.
Possibly an indication that there are some elements or the battle closer to the city. Possibly anti-aircraft fire from a gunner positioning his guns too low against the horizon overnight. Certainly, there is level of confusion within the people of Baghdad. Should they stay, as the Iraqi leadership is calling them to do, or should they go? And certainly President Saddam Hussein or his look- alike appearing to the streets of Baghdad was an effort to get them to stay.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Just what the president ordered: a walkabout on the streets of Baghdad. Not clear, however, if this is the Iraqi leader. Uncharacteristically giving high-fives to those gathered around him.
None shouting his praise, however, appear to doubt this was their president. An impression reinforced by the presence of Abid Hamoud, President Saddam Hussein's personal secretary and key adviser.
This tour of a couple of the capital western suburbs apparently designed to reassure Iraqis the leadership is alive, well, and firmly in control, despite coalition advances to the city's main airport and Pentagon assertions the Iraqi leader could be dead or injured. The public rallying backed by a TV appearance, calling for support.
SADDAM HUSSEIN, IRAQI PRESIDENT (voice-over): Hit them hard. Hit them with the force of belief whenever they approach you, and resist to them. You, the people of the brave, glory, glorious Baghdad.
ROBERTSON: Overnight bombings, reports of civilians leaving the capital, seem to indicate some not heeding the pleas from the leadership. Apparently fearful that the fighting around the capital that Iraqi officials promise to be a fierce attack on coalition forces.
MOHAMMED SAEED AL-SAHAF, IRAQI INFORMATION MINISTER (through translator): We will do something to them that will be a great example for those mercenaries.
ROBERTSON: As coalition forces consolidated their grip on the now renamed Baghdad International Airport, sources in Baghdad told CNN Republican Guard and Fedayeen forces were being called to new front lines near the massive airfield.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: Now despite the information minister there promising some sort of untraditional possibly suicide-type mission against the airport, it appears, listening to Walter Rodgers, Aaron, that that attack was in some ways conventional, with artillery and tank equipment.
BROWN: Well that presumes that the attack that happened is the attack he was talking about. And that may or may not be the cause.
Let me ask you two questions. First, on the Saddam, forget for a second whether that is Saddam or not, because we are not going to resolve that tonight. Is it clear that those pictures took place today?
ROBERTSON: Yes. Well, no, it's not clear that they took place today. It's clear that they took place Baghdad. There is some unique architecture in the background of one of the shots that absolutely says it is Baghdad.
But, no, it could have happened on any number of days recently. Because on one shot you can see smoke rising up behind the man who purports to be the Iraqi leader. But that could have been any day since the bombing began.
BROWN: And just, again, reinforce -- and then I want to move onto one other thing -- how unusual it is for Saddam Hussein to be out in public?
ROBERTSON: On the 11th of July in 1982, the Iraqi leader had gone into a university when it was surrounded by gunmen. They opened up with gunfire, and it took two hours for President Saddam Hussein to get reinforcements to get out of that location. That was the second attempt on his life in four months.
Since then, he has done virtually none of these types of walkabouts. The last time he was seen in public was about three years ago. He -- this is not his style at all over recent years -- Aaron.
BROWN: Now, just moving to a different subject, just place in context, if you can, how you feel, based on the phone calls you've been making, the situation has changed in Baghdad itself from this time last night?
ROBERTSON: I think each day, Aaron, we wake up on the new morning, listen to what the Iraqi leadership is sayings, and that's our best judgment on the resistance that they're putting up on the way that the situation is shaping up for that day. Now, as we went to bed last night -- and it's breaking day here again -- people were beginning to leave the city.
If those numbers increase significantly, that's going to present a humanitarian issue. The situation would be changing in that dimension. If the leadership wakes up and, as it has done every day till now, denies the obvious, throws more men into the front line, then we can see this situation of a resistance against the coalition forces remaining.
It's unclear how long that the Iraqi leadership can hold this position. They are continuing to try, if you will, to pull the wool over the eyes of the Iraqis in Baghdad, and at the same time call them to the front lines.
BROWN: Nic, thank you. CNN's Nic Robertson on the border of Jordan and Iraq with the view from there.
And on the telephone and his sources there, quickly to the Pentagon, and our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre. Jamie, the view from the Pentagon tonight is what?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, we got more information out of Walter Rodgers than we've gotten out of the Pentagon for several hours. It's good to see what's actually happening there at the front.
I can tell what you the strategy is, though, for the Pentagon. And that is, what we're seeing is a consolidation of forces around Baghdad. Particularly at the airport, where, as Walter Rodgers said, reinforcements brought in. Those reinforcements are designed to basically turn that airport into what's known as a fire base. A base of operations from which the U.S. can launch missions into Baghdad.
But you may not see that anytime real soon, because what's happening now is troops are continuing to move up in order to reinforce the lines around Baghdad, to essentially encircle the city, or at least encircle the southern part of the city. And the Pentagon is still concerned that, in this phase, there could be the use of chemical weapons.
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
MAJ. GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Logically, now that we are at Baghdad airport, they wouldn't use chemical and biological weapons, because we are right amongst their population. But they have not fought logically from the beginning. And so we in no way discount the possibility they will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now U.S. forces again are moving more forces up from the south. The Marines are continuing to move in from the southeast. And more 3rd Infantry Division members coming in from the other side.
This is essentially again to encircle Baghdad. Part of the strategy to give the U.S. enough forces to isolate the leadership within Baghdad. And what we may be seeing in the days to come are smaller raids, raids into the city, the seizing of strategic targets, even perhaps commando raids that are aimed at leadership targets. That is, either buildings where the leadership might be, or perhaps even trying to capture or kill some of the leaders. The strategy again appears to be to conduct that kind of an activity to isolate the leadership and avoid all-out urban combat in the streets of Baghdad -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jamie, at this time last night, you were talking about discussions going on about the possibility that the Americans might install an interim Iraqi government long before they took the city itself. Anymore reporting on that?
MCINTYRE: Well, there hasn't been much more out of the Pentagon, although my colleague, John King, over at the White House has been able to flesh out some of the details on the thinking of that. The idea being that they would have a government in place fairly quickly that would involve both exiled groups, opposition leaders, and perhaps some Iraqis in Iraq.
There's still a lot of details that have to be worked out about that. And there's still a lot of discussion going on about it. But it does appear to be part of the plan to quickly show the Iraqi people and the world that the United States is not planning to run Iraq. That they're planning to put in an interim government in place as soon as possible so that it will be seen that Iraq is being run by the Iraqis.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thanks a lot.
Some of the most difficult battles of any war, this one included, happened at choke points, places where soldiers are forced to go through, rather than around. CNN's Jane Arraf was at a checkpoint today on the northern front, and Jane joins us tonight. It's good to see you.
ARRAF: It's good to see you, Aaron. Well, it was a spectacular example of particularly U.S. Special Forces, which we are seeing more and more of on the ground here in northern Iraq, working with the Kurdish Peshmerga, the Kurdish militia. And they did advance toward a key bridge on the road to Mosul. It brought them this battle that raged for several hours, to within about 20 miles of that key city in the north.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ARRAF (voice-over): A few miles further to Mosul, Kurdish militia and their flags speeding to a town abandoned by Iraqi forces. After a day of fighting, the Iraqis were driven back five kilometers about three miles down the main road west towards Mosul from the Kurdish city of Erbil.
Soldiers were Kurdish, but the Special Forces calling in air strikes on Iraqi positions were American. As U.S. warplanes dropped bombs near the town, Kurdish fighters moved forward.
(on camera): There's a slow and steady battle going on here for control of a key bridge. It's a bridge over the river on the main road to Mosul. The Iraqis are firing artillery like that. In response, the Americans are calling in air strikes. The Peshmerga are just down the road. And the Iraqis have retreated, but they're still holding on to that bridge.
(voice-over): That blast turned out to be a rocket-propelled grenade, but there was plenty of artillery and mortar fire to come.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You coming here? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- yes.
ARRAF: Less than 20 minutes later, with Iraqi defenses pounded by the bombing, they no longer held the bridge over the Khazar River. In this vehicle, the only Iraqi casualties we saw; their military radio and guns indicating they were combatants.
(on camera): It's still smoldering, this truck, with three Iraqi soldiers. It was either shelled or bombed. Now it's a small part of this battle for the bridge just behind us. These were lying on the ground next to the truck. Somebody picked them up.
It's an ID card, presumably from one of the soldiers in there. The only thing you can really tell from it is that he was 27 years old.
(voice-over): And a snapshot from when his life was still ahead of him. Other evidence of a hurried retreat amid the smoldering vehicles, a discarded gas mask, military documents, notebooks with versus from the Quran.
Kurdish fighters planted their flag and left it waving in the smoke of the bombed out Iraqi truck. The village of Manguba (ph), just 32 kilometers, about 23 miles from Mosul, is now in Kurdish hands. One Kurdish soldier did the honors of tearing up a poster of Saddam Hussein. Not just the poster, but the frame and cardboard backing as well.
They've been waiting a long time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARRAF: Now we are arrived in that town probably less than an hour after that battle was over. We were still hearing sporadic gunfire. It was interesting, Aaron, how quickly the Kurdish fighters melted away, although they do want to advance forward. They are making a real point of not antagonizing the Turkish military by not remaining in those places where they are advancing -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jane, thank you. Terrific job. Jane Arraf in the northern part of Iraq.
General Wesley Clark is with us. We will be talking to him shortly. We will take a short break and update the day's headlines.
We have a long way to go tonight. We are glad you are with us. Take a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It seems like months ago that we first met Captain Clay Lyle of the 7th Cavalry in those grainy videophone pictures, as he and his guys were moving through the desert. A lot has changed for them.
Walt Rodgers is with the captain now -- Walt.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron.
The dawn is up now. The sun is bright. And it's going to be another day of consolidation of the U.S. Army forces in and around the Baghdad area.
As you say, with me now is Captain Clay Lyle, commander of the Apache Troop, which saw a major tank engagement yesterday.
Let's get straight to it, Captain. That was quite an experience, your force on their force, your tanks outnumbered by their tanks. And yet you slammed right into them. Tell us what you saw.
CAPTAIN CLAY LYLE, 3-7TH CAVALRY: Well, we had spent the previous night -- and we have a blocking position on a major interstate here west of the city.
And early in the morning, yesterday morning, the first T-72s and BMPs tried to attack us down the road. Had a fierce, about 30-minute fight there, where both my tanks and Bradleys engaged those T-72s. And, probably, significant note, two of my Bradleys destroyed five T- 72s with their .25-millimeter guns, so the Bradleys destroying enemy tanks. That lasted until about light.
And then we had small-arms and RPG contact all day. And then, late afternoon, my commander called me, gave me the warning order to be prepared to conduct an attack on 22 stationary T-72s that the Air Force had identified. I selected a force, tank heavy, almost all the tanks in my troop, with some Bradleys to go with it. We moved up the highway. Our maneuver space is basically the split highway, four to six lanes.
So we spread out in that as best we could. We closed with to get eyes on for the CAS and the indirect. And a large amount of CAS and indirect fire went to the north side of the road, where the Air Force had identified 20 stationary tanks. Then we were to move forward and get eyes on that and destroy anything that was left. As we moved forward, we began to take fire from the south side of the road. As we closed with that, there was smoke and dust everywhere from the Air Force bombing. As we closed with that, we identified a battalion defense on the south side of the road in their engagement area, and 10 minutes of probably the most intense fighting. It's different from small-arms and RPGs, that can be intense. But there is the relative safety of being in a tank, staring down T-72s dug in, in fighting positions.
So my seven tanks and two Bradleys that were in my force began to engage the T-72s and some ZSU-23-4 ADA systems in a direct-fire mode, all dug in.
RODGERS: You were outnumbered 2-1 at least and you went in with guns blazing?
LYLE: Roger. We made contact and immediately began returning fire, all the tanks firing. And, again, for about -- and within about 10 minutes, we destroyed 14 tanks, 12 of those T-72s, two of those T- 55s, the three ZSU, 23-4s, and a variety of other armored 5-tons with ADA guns in the back or on a trailer that were being used in direct- fire mode.
RODGERS: And you simply outshot those Soviet-vintage vehicles that the Iraqis had. You just went through guns blazing. I gather your turret was swinging one side of the road, the other side of the road?
LYLE: Roger.
At that point, as we were in staggered column, moving on both sides of the highway, all the fight, the battalion engagement area was on the south side, the right side of the highway, so not necessarily as you always picture it, with the troop on line engaging the enemy position, the troop in staggered column, with all the guns over the right side, engaging the enemy position, turning our frontal armor on the highway to them. But in 10 minutes...
RODGERS: What were you saying to your loader? I mean, you were firing fast. You were flying .120-millimeter shells fast out of there. What was it like in the turret of that tank?
LYLE: As we identified targets, I would drop to the sight very quickly just to give my gunner the approval, give him the order to fire. And he and the loader fought that. As I am commanding the troop and keeping the squadron commander on hire, I would be trying to send a report on squadron command. And when he shoots a main gun round, they really can't hear what I say there for a second.
But we did get engaged by some of the T-72 main gun rounds. They all either fell short or flew over.
RODGERS: You had one close one, though, did you not?
LYLE: I had one that landed about 25 to 50 meters to my right front, a little short of me. RODGERS: But that's why you joined. That's why you are with an outfit like this. You love tanks. You were looking for a force-on- force engagement. This is what a tanker dreams of, isn't it?
LYLE: Roger. Like I said, it's their dug-in defense. All of our turret shots, that's all that is exposed of their tanks, my tanks, and a couple of TOW shots, the TOW missile from the two Bradleys I did have with me and their 25s, which we had proven earlier in the day could destroy the T-72s, all that firepower going into that enemy battalion.
At that point, they had a good defile, a good road built up, berm to maneuver behind. Forces continued to reposition into alternate fighting positions they had dug there. So, when we had destroyed around 20 vehicles, 14 of those being tanks, we began to slowly back out of that area, continuing to engage, and, again, bring the CAS and the artillery to bear. And, as we left, they began to -- they were preparing to file MLRS rockets at that target. And then we returned to our position.
RODGERS: Let me get the score here. It was at least 24 of the U.S. Army, zero for the Iraqis. Are they that bad? Are they poorly trained? Is their equipment not that good? Or is it, you're just that much better?
LYLE: I think we are that much better, my unit, the Army in general, our equipment, our soldiers, our leadership, our training that we do at home station, the centers we go to, from my loaders and drivers and the young gunners to my senior NCOs and my officers, just the way we handle the combat. Like I said, it was over in 10 minutes. From the first round to when we backed out, it was just 10 minutes of violence.
And then we backed out and they were all destroyed. And we were all safe.
RODGERS: Military history was made, in a small sense, yesterday when the first company of Iraqi tanks started bearing down our your troop, Apache Troop. The Bradley Fighting Vehicles, much lighter than a Soviet-vintage T-72 tank, actually shot tanks out of existence. That's armored history, isn't it? Uranium-depleted shells, much smaller, .25-millimeter shells knocking out Soviet tanks, just putting them out of action.
LYLE: Rodger, the Bradleys engaging tanks is not your planning factor. That's why I have tanks. But they were in the area as well. Tanks engaging, they destroyed four of the T-72s yesterday morning in that engagement, in which we destroyed nine and six BMPs.
But, yes, I had two Bradleys that each -- one destroyed three T- 72s and the other destroyed two .25-millimeter armor-piercing rounds, hitting the turret of the T-72s, killing the crew and disabling, destroying the vehicle. Of course, the tank rounds, when they hit, caused a bigger explosion and all the T-72 ammunitions cooks off. You saw it yesterday for almost an hour. The ammunition continued to explode on the T-72s that the tanks hit. But the Bradley ones pretty much -- the Bradley ones that they destroyed, they pretty much disabled, crew dead. The Turret burned for a while. But then that was it with the vehicle. It was destroyed, for all intents and purposes, but not the fireball by the tank .120-millimeter.
RODGERS: Captain Lyle, thanks very much.
I am going to pause and ask Aaron if he would like to ask any questions that I can perhaps forward to Captain Lyle -- Aaron.
BROWN: I have a bunch, but I will give the floor to General Clark. He has been dying to ask questions -- General.
(CROSSTALK)
RODGERS: Go ahead, General.
CLARK: Walt, you did a very good job of asking the key questions in this. And, obviously, this was a tremendous fight. It's a tremendous credit to the squadron, to the troop, to Captain Lyle's leadership.
Let me ask, what was range at which the Iraqi positioned their defensive battle position off the main road? How far were they shooting?
RODGERS: General Wesley Clark is forwarding this question to you. What was the range the T-72s had positioned themselves at? How far away were they from you? At what range were they shooting at you? How far were you from them?
LYLE: As they had depth in their defense, because, as I said, it was an organized, prepared battalion defense, with fighting positions. And they had indirect systems tied in with targets, although their indirect was inaccurate as well.
Their closest vehicles were some 800 to 900 meters from the road, from the interstate that we were on, in depth out to about 1,800.
RODGERS: So that's anywhere from a half-mile to a mile?
LYLE: Roger. Half-mile to about a mile-and-a-half, yes, sir.
RODGERS: Yes, sir.
General Clark, any more questions you would like forwarded. Aaron?
CLARK: Yes, there is, if I could, Aaron.
First of all, just a comment on this. As Clay Lyle says, this was a prepared, organized Iraqi defense. And so, regardless of what's happening at the top level, this sounds like a pretty well-trained and well-disciplined Iraqi unit. They just couldn't compete with us. But how do our soldiers feel after this? What are the troops saying today about it? Are they proud? Were they exhilarated? Are they let down? What's the mood out there?
RODGERS: Well, let me begin, General Clark, by telling you, I saw Captain Lyle last night. And he was on the ceiling with his adrenaline rush.
But let me forward the general's question. How did the troops feel afterwards, after this engagement of force on force? Were they pleased? Were they high? How do you feel? How did the troops feel after that engagement?
LYLE: Obviously, every cavalryman, every tanker's dream, not to be -- not that we seek this out, but it's what we train for. It's what we do. It's our lives. And it's what our systems are made for. And we did it yesterday.
RODGERS: Yes, but what your soldiers saying? What your soldiers really saying?
LYLE: There was a lot of excitement. There was a -- as we maneuvered out of there and the artillery began to fall and we returned to our blocking positions back through our own wire we'd established about two K's to the south, there was a lot of excitement and congratulations on the troop net.
RODGERS: Well, there was almost a small party here last night.
LYLE: We maintained our security, but, roger, we had to tell a couple of war stories as we got back together here on the ground.
RODGERS: Thank you very much.
We've been talking with Captain Clay Lyle, commander of Apache Troop, U.S. Army 7th Cavalry, who engaged in a serious force-on-force engagement with the Iraqi Republican Guard yesterday. The score was at least 20 Iraqi tanks and armored vehicles killed, no losses for the 7th Cavalry -- back to you, Aaron.
BROWN: Walt, thank you. Thank Captain Lyle. Captain Lyle has a wife back at Fort Stewart, Georgia, Stephanie (ph), a young child. And they are no doubt glad to see him looking well, if a little bit battered from it all.
We will take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, as you now know, General Wesley Clark is with us. General Clark is back home in Little Rock, Arkansas.
General, there were a lot of letters thrown out there, some of which I got, some of which I suspect viewers did not. Explain, simply, if you can, what happened out there.
CLARK: Well, what happened -- what we got from the 3rd-7th Cav is, this alpha troop was set up in a blocking position, that is, a defensive position, to protect the advance of the cavalry squadron. They were probed during the day. And then they received word that there was an enemy battalion three or four kilometers away from them. They then went into an advance mode down a six-lane highway, what Clay Lyle calls the interstate. They saw the Air Force taking on the enemy battalion that was on one side of the road. But as they got down there, they found another battalion that the Air Force apparently hadn't seen that they took on, on the other side of the road.
This was a battalion that was in a prepared defensive position. It had wire out in front of it. It had berms, berms meaning the little earthen embankments around the tanks. The tanks were only visible from the turrets up. And the Iraqis had done a pretty good job, it sounds like, in laying out the defense. They had sighted in some indirect fire to cover the approach to the position. And the gunners were within range of their weapons systems on the road.
But one of the things we've always said in the United States Army is that, really, our battles are won at the soldier level, at the crew level, platoon, company. Above that, the leader sets the conditions for victory. And he can sure lose the battle, but he can't win it. It's won at the bottom. It was won when those tank commanders and Bradley commanders and gunners put steel on target.
And it was lost for the Iraqis when they couldn't engage. There were a lot of other reasons why they lost it. But we met them face- to-face. We slugged it out. We were within range of their weapons. We were just better. That's the essence of it.
BROWN: Got it.
Now I want to go back to something else that was said earlier. I think it was General McChrystal who said, speaking of Iraqis, they have not thought logically. Tell me what that -- well, first of all, tell me if you agree. Then tell me what you think he meant.
CLARK: Well, I think logic is in the eye of the beholder, to some extent. One could construct reasons why the battle unfolded as it did, but they wouldn't be reasons that we would have adopted. And I think that's what General McChrystal meant.
Now, one of the things that's clear to me is, if you consider yesterday, the 7th Cav hit two tank battalions and was probed by these armored vehicles. This was the day after, supposedly, we smashed through the Medina Division and destroyed it. And I think the real question is, what did we bomb and how much of that division did we destroy and how much of it is still left out there?
And I think that what I'm hearing from Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon and from other people talking is, one of the reasons we're probing and still working our way around Baghdad International and elsewhere is, we're doing the kind of reconnaissance that can only be done by soldiers on the ground. We're actually moving forward. We're finding the enemy. We're bringing fire against them.
There is a limit -- still, there's a limit to what can be done from the air alone. Got to have those boots on ground, or, in this case, tank and Bradley tracks.
BROWN: General, thank you. We'll get back to you in a moment.
Let me just mention here in all of this, so we don't get too far ahead of ourselves, that CENTCOM now confirms two Marine pilots have died in a crash of an AH-1W Super Cobra attack helicopter, central Iraq, early Saturday morning, Iraqi time. Preliminary indications, it was some sort of mechanical problem, or at least it was not the result of hostile fire.
We take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In two and a half weeks now, we have seen enough and heard enough to know how very difficult desert warfare can be, but the terrain that lies ahead, just up ahead, is still more difficult, not sand dunes and gullies, but shops and streets, tall buildings, dark alleyways.
What lies ahead is Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): It took a battle in Mogadishu, two Black Hawks down, and nearly 100 casualties to drive home a reality. Even in a modern war, urban combat can sometimes not be avoided and even small arms can inflict heavy damage.
Since then, the Army has put greater emphasis on training for urban combat in mock villages like this one at Fort Knox. As in Baghdad, every building here is a sniper's nest, every intersection a potential ambush. And, for realism, the town is loaded with pyrotechnics. There's a hard-core opposition force.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see this thing going with two big fights being here and here.
BROWN: And, in the dark of night, soldiers fight war games. They use blanks in weapons rigged with lasers, censors mounted on the soldiers to keep track of casualties.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a squadron down.
BROWN: But as good as the training is, it did not eliminate the risk. Baghdad is defended by the Special Republican Guard, Saddam's best and most loyal troops. Iraqi forces have some advantages if the battlefield is their city, more than four million people spread across 280 square miles.
RET. BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They use the terrain to their advantage. They use the terrain and they hide among civilian infrastructure. They use guerrilla warfare, where they negate our advantages.
BROWN: So fighting here carries a high risk of casualties on the coalition side and among Iraqi civilians as well.
GRANGE: And the problem is, the bigger fight that's in Baghdad, obviously, the more infrastructure that's destroyed. If the damage can be kept down to a minimum, obviously, that wins the hearts and minds much better if you start taking all of brick and mortar apart.
BROWN: Some military experts say the United States could try to limit the fighting by destroying key buildings to cut Iraqi forces off from their commanders.
RET. GEN. RON GRIFFITH, FORMER DESERT STORM COMMANDER: It would seem to me, if they pull back and hole up in the cities, you simply isolate them, cut off their supplies, cut off the electric power, cut off the water supply, and wait them out.
BROWN: Baghdad remains the prize. But to win, U.S. forces will first have to conquer the city's dark surprises and fearful unknowns.
GRANGE: You can measure the number of weapons, the number of troops, the thickness of concrete walls, the type of bullets you have, using smoke, using helicopters, using penetrating bombs. But you can't measure the intangibles. And the intangibles change in every fight.
BROWN: It's for good reason that history tells military leaders to avoid urban combat, if they can. This time, in this war, there may be no other choice.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: For more now on the possibility of urban combat in Baghdad, we're joined in New York by Daryl Press. He is a professor of government at Dartmouth College. Professor Press has been a consultant to the Defense Department. He has written widely about the first Gulf War.
It's nice to see you, sir. Thanks for joining us.
DARYL PRESS, PROFESSOR, DARTMOUTH COLLEGE: It's nice to be here.
BROWN: We learned early on from General Clark that plans are one thing, but the enemy does get a vote. In this case, the Iraqis get a vote. How much does -- how much control of how the final act gets played out does the American side have?
PRESS: Well, I think that's a great point, because, as the tape just -- somebody on tape just said, the United States might prefer not to go into the urban area in force at all, but the Iraqis very likely will try to pull us in.
So this is very much going to be an interactive process, where we are going to try to impose our type of urban operations on the Iraqis and they're going to try to pull us in, into nasty block-by-block fighting.
BROWN: And, even as they have pulled in -- we know they have done that, or at least we believe they have done that -- are there still choices to be made as to how the fight itself is carried out?
PRESS: I think there are very important choices.
I think the first thing I would point out is, I don't think we are yet ready or on the verge of charging into Baghdad in force. The first thing that I think we are going to do is really finish off surrounding the city. Currently, we have forces on the west, on the east and on the south. But the very first thing to do to isolate Baghdad is to close off the routes from the north.
The next thing to do, which is absolutely essential, is to try to get better intelligence on where exactly the regime loyalists are holed up in Baghdad. And we do that through special operations forces missions, perhaps with intelligence operatives that are already on the ground and maybe even through some raids. So, the next step would be to try to get intelligence on exactly where they're defending.
And only after doing this and only after trying to attrit their forces somewhat, would we probably go into the center of the city.
BROWN: General Grange in the piece that proceeded our conversation talked about the intangibles, or unknowables. One of them is how hard, how well, how determined the Iraqis are to fight it out.
Do we have any clues out there at this point to whether they in fact will fight to the end?
PRESS: Well, here I do think we have some clues. And I think the clues are actually giving us some bad news. Everything we know about the Republican Guard and also about the Special Republican Guard is that they're quite loyal to the regime.
In 1991, the Republican Guard was just bombed mercilessly by the U.S. Air Force and they stayed loyal to Saddam and they fought a series of very tenacious battles with the Army. Once again, in this war, the Republican Guard has been really bombed very heavily and fought some difficult battles against the U.S. military. And still they're standing by their man.
So we might wake up tomorrow and they might have all collapsed and they might have all surrendered. I hope that's the case. But all the signs so far suggest that they are going to fight hard for Saddam.
BROWN: Have there been any good clues as to how the Americans will carry out the fight, anything that has happened in any of the cities that precede the fight to Baghdad as they move north?
PRESS: I think there are clues that suggest that the battle for Baghdad might not be as bleak as we expect.
If we look back in history, we do see examples of very highly skilled attacking forces in urban areas doing OK. And if you look at some of urban battles earlier in this war, you see the same thing. There was a very intense urban battle in Nasiriyah. And we don't know all the details of the battle yet. But what we do know is that several thousand U.S. Marines fought pretty hard against some number, a few hundred or a couple thousand Iraqi forces, for a few days in Nasiriyah.
And between 15 and 30 Marines seemed to have died in those battles. And there doesn't seem to have been an enormous amount of damage to the infrastructure. So I think, although urban warfare is always very, very difficult, there are signs that U.S. forces are well enough trained to do an OK job at this.
BROWN: Professor Press, thanks for your time tonight and thanks for your patience waiting for us to get to you. We appreciate both. Thank you, Daryl Press, of Dartmouth College.
We will take a break, update the day's headlines and continue our coverage in just a moment.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Airport>
Aired April 4, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, ANCHOR: Well, good evening again, everyone. It's a day of digging in, of holding on, a day to solidify positions. But it's also been of some disquieting news. A suicide bombing, the second, and also evidence that foreigners have joined the fight on the Iraqi side. None of that likely to change the final outcome, but certainly could change the cost to the Americans and the British who are fighting the war.
We begin, as we do each night, with the pieces of the puzzle, the big ones and the small ones. To tell the story of heavy fighting, of great progress, and most of all of the uncertainty that lies ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Bombs once again fell on Baghdad, but for the first time, there were indications the assaults were not just from the air, but shelling from the coalitions' artillery, close enough now to inflict damage. The airport was under control; that much seemed certain. The hulk of one destroyed Iraqi jetliner clearly visible. But in a way, the day's most arresting pictures came from the streets of Baghdad.
Iraqi television broadcast these images of a man who looked exactly like Saddam Hussein; tightly guarded, but obviously in good health. His image also appeared on state television, congratulating his fighters. To the Pentagon it wasn't important.
VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: And what really matters is not whether or not he is dead or alive, but the fact of whoever is left in this regime, whatever is left of the regime leadership, got up today and realized they have less and less control of their country.
BROWN: If the newly renamed Baghdad International Airport was considered secure, the immediate neighborhoods around it were not. Elements of the Army's 3rd Infantry division celebrated as a watchtower on the airport's perimeter was destroyed. To even get there, soldiers had to crawl up steep concrete embankments to gain the high ground. Firefights between the Army and the Iraqi Republican Guard sent gunfire crackling through the trees.
KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The battle rages through most of day, though the deck is overwhelmingly stack in favor of the U.S. 82nd Airborne Division.
BROWN: On the opposite of the Iraqi capital, CNN's Karl Penhaul watched as the Army's 82nd Airborne swept through an Iraqi town on the southeastern approaches to Baghdad. And, as on every day of the war thus far, American artillery continued its efforts to inflict as much punishment, as much death as possible on Iraqi troops.
Central Command, meantime, release released this still photo of what it said was a collection of unidentified powder and liquids found near Baghdad. No confirmation about chemical or biological agents. Nothing here should be assumed.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: There's a slow and steady battle going on here for control of the key bridge. It's a bridge over the river on the main road to Mosul.
BROWN: Far less intense fighting, but equally dangerous could be seen in the northern part of the country. CNN's Jane Arraf found herself in a clash between Kurds, their American allies, and the Iraqi army. American air power was called in; the Iraqis subdued.
And Al-Jazeera television showed this woman, who said she was ready to be a suicide bomber. And apparently was. The network believed she was responsible for the suicide bombing attack that killed three American soldiers at a checkpoint north of Baghdad.
And in the central city of Najaf, American commanders felt it was safe enough to hold a field ceremony. Purple hearts awarded.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's thank all of them for what they have done for our country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The big picture of the day. And now we'll spend some time putting in the small pieces of the puzzle. Again, we will begin where we spent so much of the night last night, in and around Baghdad International Airport, a dozen miles from the city. You saw on the -- just a moment ago, how that fight has gone, and it's still a fight, trying to clear that area out, make the airport useable to control essentially the airport itself, but it is that wide area around it that now must be cleared out and control.
Much of last night was spent with CNN correspondent Walt Rodgers, who is embedded with the 7th Calvary. And that's where we will begin again tonight, with Walt outside of Baghdad.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. And good evening.
Let me begin by giving you a few headlines. The 7th Cavalry, as its continued its fighting several miles away from the Baghdad International Airport, has a few things to report. First, they have begun to encounter Republican Guard units, some rather heavy armored units.
Additionally, another headline, very interesting. As they take prisoners, and as they inspect cars and even military vehicles fleeing the city, they're finding Iraqis particularly of rank and station fleeing with suitcases full of money. That suggests even greater panic inside the city.
And again, the third headline, a major tank engagement between the 7th Calvary yesterday. To flesh in those details, put some color in that, joining us is now is Lieutenant Colonel Terry Ferrel. He's the commander of 3rd Squadron 7th Cavalry. Colonel Ferrel, begin please by telling us about that tank battle.
LT. COL. TERR FERREL, COMMANDER, 3-7TH CAVALRY: Well, we got a initial report yesterday afternoon that there was potentially about 20 to 30 vehicles that was located a few kilometers to our north. We put together a package that we could go forward and identify and get (UNINTELLIGIBLE) on to see if it was actually there.
Utilizing a ground force by Alpha Troop and then portions of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and artillery, we identified that force and discovered there was approximately a battalion's worth or more of enemy armor and artillery forward of us at about three kilometers.
RODGERS: How much is a battalion, for our viewers?
FERREL: What we looked at last night was somewhere in the neighborhood of about 20 tanks was there. Approximately six to seven BMPs. And then associated armored systems that go along with it. So approximately 40 vehicles, armored systems was in that location.
RODGERS: Of Republican Guard?
FERREL: What we determined was it was a mixture. It definitely was Republican Guards, based on the type of equipment they had, and they're willingness to fight and how they fought, and the uniforms that the soldiers were wearing that we encountered. So yes.
RODGERS: So when you detected that battalion of Iraqi armor, what did you do?
FERREL: As soon as we detected that battalion of Iraqi armor, we engaged it with direct and indirect fires, as well as CAS (ph). And brought all systems to bear to destroy that force before it could engage the force that was approaching.
RODGERS: Now what does that mean? You sent your tanks force on force against their tanks?
FERREL: We utilize our tanks and the advantages our tanks have against their systems to destroy them from a distance. First we engage with CAS (ph), and then we brought the artillery in to set the conditions for our armor systems to close with (ph) and destroy their ground force.
RODGERS: You're not using helicopters here. Too dangerous?
FERREL: Right now, the ADA (ph) threat is extremely high. And to prevent any risk that we can avoid, we are keeping the KWs and our helicopters as standoff, utilizing them in a different part our operation. Working in conjunction with the squadron, but not right here with the ground force.
RODGERS: Tell us about the Iraqi resistance that you are seeing. Are they fighting well, are they fighting sporadically?
FERREL: What you see right now and what we are observing within our area of operations is, the forces that we encounter, approximately 50 percent or so are fighting very well, very aggressive, and very well organized. At the same time, you will discover there are systems that are unmanned and just parked, and there's no fight there.
RODGERS: So what's the military situation overall around Baghdad at this hour as best you can tell us?
FERREL: The best I can tell you at this time, we are successfully occupying positions around the area of operations. There is armor threats there that we are currently seek out and destroying. And all of the U.S. -- to the best of my capability and knowledge, all of the forces that we have operating in the area are being very successful and accomplishing all of this set objectives.
RODGERS: If you could place a timeline on how long the battle for Baghdad will go on, what would your best estimate be? Realizing it can only be a guess at this point.
FERREL: If I could guess and that and be accurate, I would love to do that, because I would like to tell my soldiers that. I do not know. The resistance that we see on the outer ring is stiff but not overly -- it's not stopping our progress. Inside the city, I do not know what we will face.
RODGERS: Tell us about the airport condition. The 3rd Infantry Division seized the airport yesterday. It was reinforced last night. What's the situation at the airport, just a few miles from where we are?
FERREL: Just a few miles from where we are the airport is secure. U.S. forces are on that airfield.
They operate it. They own it. And they're able to conduct operations out of that facility as we start to establish the security ring that we put together here.
RODGERS: But the area around the airport, beyond the perimeters, hostile? Or is the 101st pushing outward?
FERREL: The other unit, the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) is working in and around the area as well, tied in with the third ID (ph). And there are areas that are of light resistance. We still see a large number of ambushes with small arms, machine guns, RPGs as a movement through the area, but no major resistance in and around those locations.
RODGERS: What happened at airport last night? Did they take shelling?
FERREL: Throughout the area of operation, we did experience some incoming of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) caliber mortar and large caliber mortar shells. And some rounds were absorbed in that location.
RODGERS: Have there been any shortcomings in the U.S. operation which you have seen so far? Things that you would like to have had but you didn't have by way of equipment or support?
FERREL: No. There's been a lot of discussion about that. But I will tell you that my organization, specifically focused in-house here, has had all of the resources that we need to accomplish our mission. And given the distance that we've traveled, the type of enemy force that we have fought continuously, we've had more than sufficient equipment and personnel to accomplish that task.
RODGERS: And one other question. What about the enemy kills? How many tracked vehicles, tanks and so forth have 7th Calvary taken out? Also the mortality rate on the Iraqi fatalities?
FERREL: Based our progress over the last few days, we have destroyed or engaged and destroyed up to 30 combat system tanks and another 15 to 20 armored systems. Numerous AVA (ph) systems that are in the direct fire mode. And the dismounted force, we've encountered large numbers of dismounts, but I cannot accurately place a number on that.
RODGERS: So you would say the Iraqis, in their defensive, Baghdad, are wounded but not out of action?
FERREL: The contact that we have, they're still in contact with us. So they are continuing to fight, and we will continue to succeed and move through that objective.
RODGERS: And what would you expect in the next eight to 12 hours?
FERREL: In the next eight to 12 hours, the squadron will continue to progress in and around our area of operations and move forward and verify the location we were at last night. If any repositioning occurred and what the actual armor threat was.
RODGERS: Lieutenant Colonel Terry Ferrel. I wonder, Aaron, is there a question you'd like me to onpass to the commander of this 7th Cavalry?
BROWN: Yes, sir. I'd like you to onpass the following question: Are the Iraqis fighting in an organized way that makes it seem that they still have, at some level at least, command and control in play?
RODGERS: I have to repeat the question to you, Colonel. Are the Iraqis fighting in an organized way or are they disorganized? Do you think their command and control structure is still in place? From what you've seen, what do you judge over the past few days?
FERREL: I believe it's still an organized resistance. It's not a large-scale organized resistance, but the pockets that we encounter, it's combined arms. They are able to utilize all of resources they have, the same as we do, and fight to bring those to bear. So there's a C-2 structure. At lower levels, I cannot confirm or deny how high the C-2 is still intact. But at our level, we still see organized command and control.
RODGERS: There were supposed to be other Iraqi Republican Guard divisions, Nebekanezer, I believe, Hammurabi, Adnon (ph). Were those phantom divisions? We haven't seen them; where are they? Do they exist?
FERREL: No, they're not phantom divisions. They do exist. That's true.
There has been a lot of repositioning and allocation of forces in and around the entire area within Baghdad city and the adjoining areas. And you start to find that, as we encountered yesterday, we discovered multiple units, we believe, based on our assessment that have maybe possibly merged together.
So they are there. We are not confirming or denying they have moved to certain locations yet. But it looks as though they have merged in some of the units together.
RODGERS: Lieutenant Colonel Terry Ferrel, thanks very much. Aaron, anything else from you -- yes?
BROWN: No, but I think we have one from General Wes -- I think we have a question from General Wesley Clark. General, do you have a question here?
GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Aaron, it's not a question. But I think that we have seen so much of this Cav squadron. We've got the squadron commander on now. I just think we ought to say on behalf of all of us who have seen it, congratulations to the leadership and the troopers and the squadron. They've displayed enormous discipline and professionalism, and we're proud of them and we want them to stay safe and finish their work over there.
BROWN: Walt, why don't you pass that on to Colonel Ferrel.
RODGERS: Glad to do that. Good talking with you both. Colonel Ferrel, that's General Clark saying you have done a superb job out here and wants to pass on his congratulations. General Wesley Clark saying that the whole country is very proud of you and your unit, sir.
FERREL: Thank you, sir.
RODGERS: Again, Aaron, back to you. Just a few headlines. 7th Calvary has indeed engaged Republican Guard units in the past several hours. Overnight a major tank battle.
Again, more Iraqi tanks put out of commission. Also very important, they're seeing increasingly Iraqis of position in rank fleeing the city with suitcases full of money. Back to you, Aaron.
BROWN: Walt, thank you very much. "Stiff, but is not stopping our progress," is the quote I wrote down from the colonel. It is true, as General Clark said, we have followed this group since the earliest moments of their crossing the border. And to see them where they are now is something. And what they are involved in. Baghdad is where we go next. For the first time, as you look at the city on a Saturday morning now in Baghdad, we are beginning to hear reports of gunfire in parts of the city, of Special Forces on the ground now in places. Not for the first time though. We hear explosions well.
We are seeing Iraqis flee the city, as Walt just indicated. The leadership perhaps starting to unravel. But into the mix today, also come those pictures of Saddam Hussein out there on the stump almost like a politician.
So it's an odd mix, and it's hard to know how to put all of pieces of the Baghdad and the regime puzzle into a coherent picture. For that, we turn to Nic Robertson, who is on the Jordanian-Iraqi border, and keeping track of his sources in Baghdad itself. Nic, good to see you tonight.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Aaron. Well I heard from my sources a few times throughout the night. They did tell me that from their position in the center of the city they could tell that people were -- families, civilians were actually leaving the city.
They reported a number of explosions in the southeast of the city, an area that we know coalition forces are head towards at this time. They also reported some heavy machine gunfire in the center of city. At one moment, bullets coming past the location they were in, which is atypical, certainly been atypical of the conflict so far.
Possibly an indication that there are some elements or the battle closer to the city. Possibly anti-aircraft fire from a gunner positioning his guns too low against the horizon overnight. Certainly, there is level of confusion within the people of Baghdad. Should they stay, as the Iraqi leadership is calling them to do, or should they go? And certainly President Saddam Hussein or his look- alike appearing to the streets of Baghdad was an effort to get them to stay.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON (voice-over): Just what the president ordered: a walkabout on the streets of Baghdad. Not clear, however, if this is the Iraqi leader. Uncharacteristically giving high-fives to those gathered around him.
None shouting his praise, however, appear to doubt this was their president. An impression reinforced by the presence of Abid Hamoud, President Saddam Hussein's personal secretary and key adviser.
This tour of a couple of the capital western suburbs apparently designed to reassure Iraqis the leadership is alive, well, and firmly in control, despite coalition advances to the city's main airport and Pentagon assertions the Iraqi leader could be dead or injured. The public rallying backed by a TV appearance, calling for support.
SADDAM HUSSEIN, IRAQI PRESIDENT (voice-over): Hit them hard. Hit them with the force of belief whenever they approach you, and resist to them. You, the people of the brave, glory, glorious Baghdad.
ROBERTSON: Overnight bombings, reports of civilians leaving the capital, seem to indicate some not heeding the pleas from the leadership. Apparently fearful that the fighting around the capital that Iraqi officials promise to be a fierce attack on coalition forces.
MOHAMMED SAEED AL-SAHAF, IRAQI INFORMATION MINISTER (through translator): We will do something to them that will be a great example for those mercenaries.
ROBERTSON: As coalition forces consolidated their grip on the now renamed Baghdad International Airport, sources in Baghdad told CNN Republican Guard and Fedayeen forces were being called to new front lines near the massive airfield.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTSON: Now despite the information minister there promising some sort of untraditional possibly suicide-type mission against the airport, it appears, listening to Walter Rodgers, Aaron, that that attack was in some ways conventional, with artillery and tank equipment.
BROWN: Well that presumes that the attack that happened is the attack he was talking about. And that may or may not be the cause.
Let me ask you two questions. First, on the Saddam, forget for a second whether that is Saddam or not, because we are not going to resolve that tonight. Is it clear that those pictures took place today?
ROBERTSON: Yes. Well, no, it's not clear that they took place today. It's clear that they took place Baghdad. There is some unique architecture in the background of one of the shots that absolutely says it is Baghdad.
But, no, it could have happened on any number of days recently. Because on one shot you can see smoke rising up behind the man who purports to be the Iraqi leader. But that could have been any day since the bombing began.
BROWN: And just, again, reinforce -- and then I want to move onto one other thing -- how unusual it is for Saddam Hussein to be out in public?
ROBERTSON: On the 11th of July in 1982, the Iraqi leader had gone into a university when it was surrounded by gunmen. They opened up with gunfire, and it took two hours for President Saddam Hussein to get reinforcements to get out of that location. That was the second attempt on his life in four months.
Since then, he has done virtually none of these types of walkabouts. The last time he was seen in public was about three years ago. He -- this is not his style at all over recent years -- Aaron.
BROWN: Now, just moving to a different subject, just place in context, if you can, how you feel, based on the phone calls you've been making, the situation has changed in Baghdad itself from this time last night?
ROBERTSON: I think each day, Aaron, we wake up on the new morning, listen to what the Iraqi leadership is sayings, and that's our best judgment on the resistance that they're putting up on the way that the situation is shaping up for that day. Now, as we went to bed last night -- and it's breaking day here again -- people were beginning to leave the city.
If those numbers increase significantly, that's going to present a humanitarian issue. The situation would be changing in that dimension. If the leadership wakes up and, as it has done every day till now, denies the obvious, throws more men into the front line, then we can see this situation of a resistance against the coalition forces remaining.
It's unclear how long that the Iraqi leadership can hold this position. They are continuing to try, if you will, to pull the wool over the eyes of the Iraqis in Baghdad, and at the same time call them to the front lines.
BROWN: Nic, thank you. CNN's Nic Robertson on the border of Jordan and Iraq with the view from there.
And on the telephone and his sources there, quickly to the Pentagon, and our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre. Jamie, the view from the Pentagon tonight is what?
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, we got more information out of Walter Rodgers than we've gotten out of the Pentagon for several hours. It's good to see what's actually happening there at the front.
I can tell what you the strategy is, though, for the Pentagon. And that is, what we're seeing is a consolidation of forces around Baghdad. Particularly at the airport, where, as Walter Rodgers said, reinforcements brought in. Those reinforcements are designed to basically turn that airport into what's known as a fire base. A base of operations from which the U.S. can launch missions into Baghdad.
But you may not see that anytime real soon, because what's happening now is troops are continuing to move up in order to reinforce the lines around Baghdad, to essentially encircle the city, or at least encircle the southern part of the city. And the Pentagon is still concerned that, in this phase, there could be the use of chemical weapons.
(BEGIN VIDE CLIP)
MAJ. GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY DIRECTOR: Logically, now that we are at Baghdad airport, they wouldn't use chemical and biological weapons, because we are right amongst their population. But they have not fought logically from the beginning. And so we in no way discount the possibility they will.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MCINTYRE: Now U.S. forces again are moving more forces up from the south. The Marines are continuing to move in from the southeast. And more 3rd Infantry Division members coming in from the other side.
This is essentially again to encircle Baghdad. Part of the strategy to give the U.S. enough forces to isolate the leadership within Baghdad. And what we may be seeing in the days to come are smaller raids, raids into the city, the seizing of strategic targets, even perhaps commando raids that are aimed at leadership targets. That is, either buildings where the leadership might be, or perhaps even trying to capture or kill some of the leaders. The strategy again appears to be to conduct that kind of an activity to isolate the leadership and avoid all-out urban combat in the streets of Baghdad -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jamie, at this time last night, you were talking about discussions going on about the possibility that the Americans might install an interim Iraqi government long before they took the city itself. Anymore reporting on that?
MCINTYRE: Well, there hasn't been much more out of the Pentagon, although my colleague, John King, over at the White House has been able to flesh out some of the details on the thinking of that. The idea being that they would have a government in place fairly quickly that would involve both exiled groups, opposition leaders, and perhaps some Iraqis in Iraq.
There's still a lot of details that have to be worked out about that. And there's still a lot of discussion going on about it. But it does appear to be part of the plan to quickly show the Iraqi people and the world that the United States is not planning to run Iraq. That they're planning to put in an interim government in place as soon as possible so that it will be seen that Iraq is being run by the Iraqis.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Thanks a lot.
Some of the most difficult battles of any war, this one included, happened at choke points, places where soldiers are forced to go through, rather than around. CNN's Jane Arraf was at a checkpoint today on the northern front, and Jane joins us tonight. It's good to see you.
ARRAF: It's good to see you, Aaron. Well, it was a spectacular example of particularly U.S. Special Forces, which we are seeing more and more of on the ground here in northern Iraq, working with the Kurdish Peshmerga, the Kurdish militia. And they did advance toward a key bridge on the road to Mosul. It brought them this battle that raged for several hours, to within about 20 miles of that key city in the north.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ARRAF (voice-over): A few miles further to Mosul, Kurdish militia and their flags speeding to a town abandoned by Iraqi forces. After a day of fighting, the Iraqis were driven back five kilometers about three miles down the main road west towards Mosul from the Kurdish city of Erbil.
Soldiers were Kurdish, but the Special Forces calling in air strikes on Iraqi positions were American. As U.S. warplanes dropped bombs near the town, Kurdish fighters moved forward.
(on camera): There's a slow and steady battle going on here for control of a key bridge. It's a bridge over the river on the main road to Mosul. The Iraqis are firing artillery like that. In response, the Americans are calling in air strikes. The Peshmerga are just down the road. And the Iraqis have retreated, but they're still holding on to that bridge.
(voice-over): That blast turned out to be a rocket-propelled grenade, but there was plenty of artillery and mortar fire to come.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You coming here? (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- yes.
ARRAF: Less than 20 minutes later, with Iraqi defenses pounded by the bombing, they no longer held the bridge over the Khazar River. In this vehicle, the only Iraqi casualties we saw; their military radio and guns indicating they were combatants.
(on camera): It's still smoldering, this truck, with three Iraqi soldiers. It was either shelled or bombed. Now it's a small part of this battle for the bridge just behind us. These were lying on the ground next to the truck. Somebody picked them up.
It's an ID card, presumably from one of the soldiers in there. The only thing you can really tell from it is that he was 27 years old.
(voice-over): And a snapshot from when his life was still ahead of him. Other evidence of a hurried retreat amid the smoldering vehicles, a discarded gas mask, military documents, notebooks with versus from the Quran.
Kurdish fighters planted their flag and left it waving in the smoke of the bombed out Iraqi truck. The village of Manguba (ph), just 32 kilometers, about 23 miles from Mosul, is now in Kurdish hands. One Kurdish soldier did the honors of tearing up a poster of Saddam Hussein. Not just the poster, but the frame and cardboard backing as well.
They've been waiting a long time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ARRAF: Now we are arrived in that town probably less than an hour after that battle was over. We were still hearing sporadic gunfire. It was interesting, Aaron, how quickly the Kurdish fighters melted away, although they do want to advance forward. They are making a real point of not antagonizing the Turkish military by not remaining in those places where they are advancing -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jane, thank you. Terrific job. Jane Arraf in the northern part of Iraq.
General Wesley Clark is with us. We will be talking to him shortly. We will take a short break and update the day's headlines.
We have a long way to go tonight. We are glad you are with us. Take a break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It seems like months ago that we first met Captain Clay Lyle of the 7th Cavalry in those grainy videophone pictures, as he and his guys were moving through the desert. A lot has changed for them.
Walt Rodgers is with the captain now -- Walt.
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron.
The dawn is up now. The sun is bright. And it's going to be another day of consolidation of the U.S. Army forces in and around the Baghdad area.
As you say, with me now is Captain Clay Lyle, commander of the Apache Troop, which saw a major tank engagement yesterday.
Let's get straight to it, Captain. That was quite an experience, your force on their force, your tanks outnumbered by their tanks. And yet you slammed right into them. Tell us what you saw.
CAPTAIN CLAY LYLE, 3-7TH CAVALRY: Well, we had spent the previous night -- and we have a blocking position on a major interstate here west of the city.
And early in the morning, yesterday morning, the first T-72s and BMPs tried to attack us down the road. Had a fierce, about 30-minute fight there, where both my tanks and Bradleys engaged those T-72s. And, probably, significant note, two of my Bradleys destroyed five T- 72s with their .25-millimeter guns, so the Bradleys destroying enemy tanks. That lasted until about light.
And then we had small-arms and RPG contact all day. And then, late afternoon, my commander called me, gave me the warning order to be prepared to conduct an attack on 22 stationary T-72s that the Air Force had identified. I selected a force, tank heavy, almost all the tanks in my troop, with some Bradleys to go with it. We moved up the highway. Our maneuver space is basically the split highway, four to six lanes.
So we spread out in that as best we could. We closed with to get eyes on for the CAS and the indirect. And a large amount of CAS and indirect fire went to the north side of the road, where the Air Force had identified 20 stationary tanks. Then we were to move forward and get eyes on that and destroy anything that was left. As we moved forward, we began to take fire from the south side of the road. As we closed with that, there was smoke and dust everywhere from the Air Force bombing. As we closed with that, we identified a battalion defense on the south side of the road in their engagement area, and 10 minutes of probably the most intense fighting. It's different from small-arms and RPGs, that can be intense. But there is the relative safety of being in a tank, staring down T-72s dug in, in fighting positions.
So my seven tanks and two Bradleys that were in my force began to engage the T-72s and some ZSU-23-4 ADA systems in a direct-fire mode, all dug in.
RODGERS: You were outnumbered 2-1 at least and you went in with guns blazing?
LYLE: Roger. We made contact and immediately began returning fire, all the tanks firing. And, again, for about -- and within about 10 minutes, we destroyed 14 tanks, 12 of those T-72s, two of those T- 55s, the three ZSU, 23-4s, and a variety of other armored 5-tons with ADA guns in the back or on a trailer that were being used in direct- fire mode.
RODGERS: And you simply outshot those Soviet-vintage vehicles that the Iraqis had. You just went through guns blazing. I gather your turret was swinging one side of the road, the other side of the road?
LYLE: Roger.
At that point, as we were in staggered column, moving on both sides of the highway, all the fight, the battalion engagement area was on the south side, the right side of the highway, so not necessarily as you always picture it, with the troop on line engaging the enemy position, the troop in staggered column, with all the guns over the right side, engaging the enemy position, turning our frontal armor on the highway to them. But in 10 minutes...
RODGERS: What were you saying to your loader? I mean, you were firing fast. You were flying .120-millimeter shells fast out of there. What was it like in the turret of that tank?
LYLE: As we identified targets, I would drop to the sight very quickly just to give my gunner the approval, give him the order to fire. And he and the loader fought that. As I am commanding the troop and keeping the squadron commander on hire, I would be trying to send a report on squadron command. And when he shoots a main gun round, they really can't hear what I say there for a second.
But we did get engaged by some of the T-72 main gun rounds. They all either fell short or flew over.
RODGERS: You had one close one, though, did you not?
LYLE: I had one that landed about 25 to 50 meters to my right front, a little short of me. RODGERS: But that's why you joined. That's why you are with an outfit like this. You love tanks. You were looking for a force-on- force engagement. This is what a tanker dreams of, isn't it?
LYLE: Roger. Like I said, it's their dug-in defense. All of our turret shots, that's all that is exposed of their tanks, my tanks, and a couple of TOW shots, the TOW missile from the two Bradleys I did have with me and their 25s, which we had proven earlier in the day could destroy the T-72s, all that firepower going into that enemy battalion.
At that point, they had a good defile, a good road built up, berm to maneuver behind. Forces continued to reposition into alternate fighting positions they had dug there. So, when we had destroyed around 20 vehicles, 14 of those being tanks, we began to slowly back out of that area, continuing to engage, and, again, bring the CAS and the artillery to bear. And, as we left, they began to -- they were preparing to file MLRS rockets at that target. And then we returned to our position.
RODGERS: Let me get the score here. It was at least 24 of the U.S. Army, zero for the Iraqis. Are they that bad? Are they poorly trained? Is their equipment not that good? Or is it, you're just that much better?
LYLE: I think we are that much better, my unit, the Army in general, our equipment, our soldiers, our leadership, our training that we do at home station, the centers we go to, from my loaders and drivers and the young gunners to my senior NCOs and my officers, just the way we handle the combat. Like I said, it was over in 10 minutes. From the first round to when we backed out, it was just 10 minutes of violence.
And then we backed out and they were all destroyed. And we were all safe.
RODGERS: Military history was made, in a small sense, yesterday when the first company of Iraqi tanks started bearing down our your troop, Apache Troop. The Bradley Fighting Vehicles, much lighter than a Soviet-vintage T-72 tank, actually shot tanks out of existence. That's armored history, isn't it? Uranium-depleted shells, much smaller, .25-millimeter shells knocking out Soviet tanks, just putting them out of action.
LYLE: Rodger, the Bradleys engaging tanks is not your planning factor. That's why I have tanks. But they were in the area as well. Tanks engaging, they destroyed four of the T-72s yesterday morning in that engagement, in which we destroyed nine and six BMPs.
But, yes, I had two Bradleys that each -- one destroyed three T- 72s and the other destroyed two .25-millimeter armor-piercing rounds, hitting the turret of the T-72s, killing the crew and disabling, destroying the vehicle. Of course, the tank rounds, when they hit, caused a bigger explosion and all the T-72 ammunitions cooks off. You saw it yesterday for almost an hour. The ammunition continued to explode on the T-72s that the tanks hit. But the Bradley ones pretty much -- the Bradley ones that they destroyed, they pretty much disabled, crew dead. The Turret burned for a while. But then that was it with the vehicle. It was destroyed, for all intents and purposes, but not the fireball by the tank .120-millimeter.
RODGERS: Captain Lyle, thanks very much.
I am going to pause and ask Aaron if he would like to ask any questions that I can perhaps forward to Captain Lyle -- Aaron.
BROWN: I have a bunch, but I will give the floor to General Clark. He has been dying to ask questions -- General.
(CROSSTALK)
RODGERS: Go ahead, General.
CLARK: Walt, you did a very good job of asking the key questions in this. And, obviously, this was a tremendous fight. It's a tremendous credit to the squadron, to the troop, to Captain Lyle's leadership.
Let me ask, what was range at which the Iraqi positioned their defensive battle position off the main road? How far were they shooting?
RODGERS: General Wesley Clark is forwarding this question to you. What was the range the T-72s had positioned themselves at? How far away were they from you? At what range were they shooting at you? How far were you from them?
LYLE: As they had depth in their defense, because, as I said, it was an organized, prepared battalion defense, with fighting positions. And they had indirect systems tied in with targets, although their indirect was inaccurate as well.
Their closest vehicles were some 800 to 900 meters from the road, from the interstate that we were on, in depth out to about 1,800.
RODGERS: So that's anywhere from a half-mile to a mile?
LYLE: Roger. Half-mile to about a mile-and-a-half, yes, sir.
RODGERS: Yes, sir.
General Clark, any more questions you would like forwarded. Aaron?
CLARK: Yes, there is, if I could, Aaron.
First of all, just a comment on this. As Clay Lyle says, this was a prepared, organized Iraqi defense. And so, regardless of what's happening at the top level, this sounds like a pretty well-trained and well-disciplined Iraqi unit. They just couldn't compete with us. But how do our soldiers feel after this? What are the troops saying today about it? Are they proud? Were they exhilarated? Are they let down? What's the mood out there?
RODGERS: Well, let me begin, General Clark, by telling you, I saw Captain Lyle last night. And he was on the ceiling with his adrenaline rush.
But let me forward the general's question. How did the troops feel afterwards, after this engagement of force on force? Were they pleased? Were they high? How do you feel? How did the troops feel after that engagement?
LYLE: Obviously, every cavalryman, every tanker's dream, not to be -- not that we seek this out, but it's what we train for. It's what we do. It's our lives. And it's what our systems are made for. And we did it yesterday.
RODGERS: Yes, but what your soldiers saying? What your soldiers really saying?
LYLE: There was a lot of excitement. There was a -- as we maneuvered out of there and the artillery began to fall and we returned to our blocking positions back through our own wire we'd established about two K's to the south, there was a lot of excitement and congratulations on the troop net.
RODGERS: Well, there was almost a small party here last night.
LYLE: We maintained our security, but, roger, we had to tell a couple of war stories as we got back together here on the ground.
RODGERS: Thank you very much.
We've been talking with Captain Clay Lyle, commander of Apache Troop, U.S. Army 7th Cavalry, who engaged in a serious force-on-force engagement with the Iraqi Republican Guard yesterday. The score was at least 20 Iraqi tanks and armored vehicles killed, no losses for the 7th Cavalry -- back to you, Aaron.
BROWN: Walt, thank you. Thank Captain Lyle. Captain Lyle has a wife back at Fort Stewart, Georgia, Stephanie (ph), a young child. And they are no doubt glad to see him looking well, if a little bit battered from it all.
We will take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, as you now know, General Wesley Clark is with us. General Clark is back home in Little Rock, Arkansas.
General, there were a lot of letters thrown out there, some of which I got, some of which I suspect viewers did not. Explain, simply, if you can, what happened out there.
CLARK: Well, what happened -- what we got from the 3rd-7th Cav is, this alpha troop was set up in a blocking position, that is, a defensive position, to protect the advance of the cavalry squadron. They were probed during the day. And then they received word that there was an enemy battalion three or four kilometers away from them. They then went into an advance mode down a six-lane highway, what Clay Lyle calls the interstate. They saw the Air Force taking on the enemy battalion that was on one side of the road. But as they got down there, they found another battalion that the Air Force apparently hadn't seen that they took on, on the other side of the road.
This was a battalion that was in a prepared defensive position. It had wire out in front of it. It had berms, berms meaning the little earthen embankments around the tanks. The tanks were only visible from the turrets up. And the Iraqis had done a pretty good job, it sounds like, in laying out the defense. They had sighted in some indirect fire to cover the approach to the position. And the gunners were within range of their weapons systems on the road.
But one of the things we've always said in the United States Army is that, really, our battles are won at the soldier level, at the crew level, platoon, company. Above that, the leader sets the conditions for victory. And he can sure lose the battle, but he can't win it. It's won at the bottom. It was won when those tank commanders and Bradley commanders and gunners put steel on target.
And it was lost for the Iraqis when they couldn't engage. There were a lot of other reasons why they lost it. But we met them face- to-face. We slugged it out. We were within range of their weapons. We were just better. That's the essence of it.
BROWN: Got it.
Now I want to go back to something else that was said earlier. I think it was General McChrystal who said, speaking of Iraqis, they have not thought logically. Tell me what that -- well, first of all, tell me if you agree. Then tell me what you think he meant.
CLARK: Well, I think logic is in the eye of the beholder, to some extent. One could construct reasons why the battle unfolded as it did, but they wouldn't be reasons that we would have adopted. And I think that's what General McChrystal meant.
Now, one of the things that's clear to me is, if you consider yesterday, the 7th Cav hit two tank battalions and was probed by these armored vehicles. This was the day after, supposedly, we smashed through the Medina Division and destroyed it. And I think the real question is, what did we bomb and how much of that division did we destroy and how much of it is still left out there?
And I think that what I'm hearing from Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon and from other people talking is, one of the reasons we're probing and still working our way around Baghdad International and elsewhere is, we're doing the kind of reconnaissance that can only be done by soldiers on the ground. We're actually moving forward. We're finding the enemy. We're bringing fire against them.
There is a limit -- still, there's a limit to what can be done from the air alone. Got to have those boots on ground, or, in this case, tank and Bradley tracks.
BROWN: General, thank you. We'll get back to you in a moment.
Let me just mention here in all of this, so we don't get too far ahead of ourselves, that CENTCOM now confirms two Marine pilots have died in a crash of an AH-1W Super Cobra attack helicopter, central Iraq, early Saturday morning, Iraqi time. Preliminary indications, it was some sort of mechanical problem, or at least it was not the result of hostile fire.
We take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In two and a half weeks now, we have seen enough and heard enough to know how very difficult desert warfare can be, but the terrain that lies ahead, just up ahead, is still more difficult, not sand dunes and gullies, but shops and streets, tall buildings, dark alleyways.
What lies ahead is Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): It took a battle in Mogadishu, two Black Hawks down, and nearly 100 casualties to drive home a reality. Even in a modern war, urban combat can sometimes not be avoided and even small arms can inflict heavy damage.
Since then, the Army has put greater emphasis on training for urban combat in mock villages like this one at Fort Knox. As in Baghdad, every building here is a sniper's nest, every intersection a potential ambush. And, for realism, the town is loaded with pyrotechnics. There's a hard-core opposition force.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see this thing going with two big fights being here and here.
BROWN: And, in the dark of night, soldiers fight war games. They use blanks in weapons rigged with lasers, censors mounted on the soldiers to keep track of casualties.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We got a squadron down.
BROWN: But as good as the training is, it did not eliminate the risk. Baghdad is defended by the Special Republican Guard, Saddam's best and most loyal troops. Iraqi forces have some advantages if the battlefield is their city, more than four million people spread across 280 square miles.
RET. BRIG. GEN. DAVID GRANGE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: They use the terrain to their advantage. They use the terrain and they hide among civilian infrastructure. They use guerrilla warfare, where they negate our advantages.
BROWN: So fighting here carries a high risk of casualties on the coalition side and among Iraqi civilians as well.
GRANGE: And the problem is, the bigger fight that's in Baghdad, obviously, the more infrastructure that's destroyed. If the damage can be kept down to a minimum, obviously, that wins the hearts and minds much better if you start taking all of brick and mortar apart.
BROWN: Some military experts say the United States could try to limit the fighting by destroying key buildings to cut Iraqi forces off from their commanders.
RET. GEN. RON GRIFFITH, FORMER DESERT STORM COMMANDER: It would seem to me, if they pull back and hole up in the cities, you simply isolate them, cut off their supplies, cut off the electric power, cut off the water supply, and wait them out.
BROWN: Baghdad remains the prize. But to win, U.S. forces will first have to conquer the city's dark surprises and fearful unknowns.
GRANGE: You can measure the number of weapons, the number of troops, the thickness of concrete walls, the type of bullets you have, using smoke, using helicopters, using penetrating bombs. But you can't measure the intangibles. And the intangibles change in every fight.
BROWN: It's for good reason that history tells military leaders to avoid urban combat, if they can. This time, in this war, there may be no other choice.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: For more now on the possibility of urban combat in Baghdad, we're joined in New York by Daryl Press. He is a professor of government at Dartmouth College. Professor Press has been a consultant to the Defense Department. He has written widely about the first Gulf War.
It's nice to see you, sir. Thanks for joining us.
DARYL PRESS, PROFESSOR, DARTMOUTH COLLEGE: It's nice to be here.
BROWN: We learned early on from General Clark that plans are one thing, but the enemy does get a vote. In this case, the Iraqis get a vote. How much does -- how much control of how the final act gets played out does the American side have?
PRESS: Well, I think that's a great point, because, as the tape just -- somebody on tape just said, the United States might prefer not to go into the urban area in force at all, but the Iraqis very likely will try to pull us in.
So this is very much going to be an interactive process, where we are going to try to impose our type of urban operations on the Iraqis and they're going to try to pull us in, into nasty block-by-block fighting.
BROWN: And, even as they have pulled in -- we know they have done that, or at least we believe they have done that -- are there still choices to be made as to how the fight itself is carried out?
PRESS: I think there are very important choices.
I think the first thing I would point out is, I don't think we are yet ready or on the verge of charging into Baghdad in force. The first thing that I think we are going to do is really finish off surrounding the city. Currently, we have forces on the west, on the east and on the south. But the very first thing to do to isolate Baghdad is to close off the routes from the north.
The next thing to do, which is absolutely essential, is to try to get better intelligence on where exactly the regime loyalists are holed up in Baghdad. And we do that through special operations forces missions, perhaps with intelligence operatives that are already on the ground and maybe even through some raids. So, the next step would be to try to get intelligence on exactly where they're defending.
And only after doing this and only after trying to attrit their forces somewhat, would we probably go into the center of the city.
BROWN: General Grange in the piece that proceeded our conversation talked about the intangibles, or unknowables. One of them is how hard, how well, how determined the Iraqis are to fight it out.
Do we have any clues out there at this point to whether they in fact will fight to the end?
PRESS: Well, here I do think we have some clues. And I think the clues are actually giving us some bad news. Everything we know about the Republican Guard and also about the Special Republican Guard is that they're quite loyal to the regime.
In 1991, the Republican Guard was just bombed mercilessly by the U.S. Air Force and they stayed loyal to Saddam and they fought a series of very tenacious battles with the Army. Once again, in this war, the Republican Guard has been really bombed very heavily and fought some difficult battles against the U.S. military. And still they're standing by their man.
So we might wake up tomorrow and they might have all collapsed and they might have all surrendered. I hope that's the case. But all the signs so far suggest that they are going to fight hard for Saddam.
BROWN: Have there been any good clues as to how the Americans will carry out the fight, anything that has happened in any of the cities that precede the fight to Baghdad as they move north?
PRESS: I think there are clues that suggest that the battle for Baghdad might not be as bleak as we expect.
If we look back in history, we do see examples of very highly skilled attacking forces in urban areas doing OK. And if you look at some of urban battles earlier in this war, you see the same thing. There was a very intense urban battle in Nasiriyah. And we don't know all the details of the battle yet. But what we do know is that several thousand U.S. Marines fought pretty hard against some number, a few hundred or a couple thousand Iraqi forces, for a few days in Nasiriyah.
And between 15 and 30 Marines seemed to have died in those battles. And there doesn't seem to have been an enormous amount of damage to the infrastructure. So I think, although urban warfare is always very, very difficult, there are signs that U.S. forces are well enough trained to do an OK job at this.
BROWN: Professor Press, thanks for your time tonight and thanks for your patience waiting for us to get to you. We appreciate both. Thank you, Daryl Press, of Dartmouth College.
We will take a break, update the day's headlines and continue our coverage in just a moment.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Airport>
