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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Army Sends More Units Into Baghdad
Aired April 05, 2003 - 23:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: I'm in the news room and here's what's happening this hour.
New explosions were heard in Baghdad overnight as coalition forces tightened the noose around the city. U.S. forces are in the heart of Baghdad challenging Saddam Hussein's defenders. CNN's Walter Rodgers reports many Iraqi officials are fleeing the city.
Along the northern front, U.S. bombers pounded Iraqi positions after being spotted by U.S. Special Forces on the ground. Those Special Forces have joined up with Kurdish fighters.
Dramatic details of the rescue of Jessica Lynch are coming up revealing a wounded soldier who hid under her sheet when U.S. Special Forces burst into an Iraqi hospital to rescue her. CENTCOM says as she was being whisked away Lynch told one rescuer "please don't let anybody leave me." Her parents flew to Germany today to visit Lynch who is in intensive care.
Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington, D.C. received four more casualties from Operation Iraqi Freedom. The four who arrived from Germany included one serviceman in serious but stable condition. So far the hospital has treated 26 service personnel injured in the war.
In other news, a 60 mile stretch of the Pennsylvania Turnpike was shut down tonight after a number of fog related accidents. Four people were killed and more than a dozen injured, three critically.
Those are the headlines at this hour. Now back to you Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Fredricka, thanks very much. We actually were going to go to break but we're not now because Walter Rodgers is standing by. He's of course embedded with the 7th Calvary. He's got some new information for us.
Walter, what's the latest where you are?
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello Anderson. The U.S. Army is now so confident of the situation in Baghdad that it plans to send more armored recognizance missions into the city again today. You'll recall that the 2nd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division made a historic thrust into Baghdad yesterday and then moved out. Again, there will be more U.S. Army muscle flexing today perhaps even the Marines as well as the Army continues to exert its dominance over the Iraqi capital. Additionally the plans are moving ahead so quickly now that the Army is planning its SASO operations. I believe that stands for security and stability operations afterwards which means essentially that the area of Baghdad and around Baghdad is going to be carved up into security zones in which those soldiers or those units are assigned to various security zones to act more or less as the policing forces in those and again there's a rapid progression of events that's going to unfold throughout this day some of which we can't disclose but by the end of this day here in Baghdad you're going to see some really remarkable progress by the U.S. military, particularly the U.S. Army which has just led the attack throughout the operation and now is going to be in the - in the vanguard of leading the peace as well.
Anderson ...
COOPER: Walter, does the mindset of the Army troops you are with, does it change now that this is a city operation versus what you have been encountering over the last 17 days or so?
RODGERS: Yes, it does, of course because every time these armed recognizance missions go into the city of Baghdad, the Iraqi capital, you have to realize that they are almost certain to be under fire. So many of these soldiers even though some of the generals appear to be suggesting that it's only a matter of a few more days, one senior officer, a senior general suggested that all the military had to do was keep the pressure on for a few more days. He said we have the Iraqis "rocking backwards on their heels." Still, there will be U.S. soldiers under continuous hostile fire as you continue to see these pockets of resistance.
Let me add one thing about some of the civilian reactions, civilian populous that we've seen. One of the civilian affairs units of the U.S. Army was on a patrol recently and trying to urge the Iraqis to come out and collect some of the dead Iraqi soldiers' bodies that had been lying beside the road on the outskirts of Baghdad. The local Iraqis were very, very skeptical. They said who are you and then they - then they seemed very relieved to discover it was an American Army unit but even more importantly they kept asking is he dead yet? Have you gotten him yet and you could see this enthusiasm still being suppressed within the Iraqi people on the outskirts of Baghdad but all they wanted to know was Saddam Hussein dead. I think you'll see this enormous emotional release among the Iraqi people when that happens. We still have to point out though that U.S. soldiers on these recognizance missions expected later in the day will be under fire in the city of Baghdad.
Anderson ...
COOPER: Walter, we're also going to bring in Retired General Wesley Clark who is joining us well.
General Clark, you're hearing what Walter Rodgers has been reporting, more recon missions. What goes through your mind?
RETIRED GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I think that this is part of the phase of keeping the pressure on, identifying the centers of resistance, finding out how strong they are and taking down their will to resist round by round as they're taken and they're - this should crumble the Iraqi positions. It may not be necessary to occupy large areas early but that's the question. The question is OK we do this today. When do we feel like we're going to go in there and actually carve up the city and occupy it because that's the point at which we're at risk where they have still numerical superiority.
The other issue for Walt Rodgers would be this, Anderson. It would be what about the civilians that are the area? Are the troops seeing the civilians? Are they attempting to warn the civilians or do the civilians just get out of the way and we don't know what the damage is to the civilians in terms of incidental casualties?
COOPER: Well General Clark - General Clark I know you actually want to unseat Aaron Brown as an anchor here at CNN so feel free to ask directly to Walter any questions you have.
CLARK: Walter, what about civilians and what instructions can you tell us has been given about the civilians on these missions?
RODGERS: I can't tell you about the heart of Baghdad. I can tell you about the suburbs where we've been for the last 48 hours or so. It's an excellent question, General, and what we have seen is the civilians being very, very weary, very, very standoffish but we had an incident here in the past couple of days, which is an important vignette. In this part of the world, in the Islamic part of the world, bodies are supposed to be buried within 24 hours after a victim being killed. We've seen Iraqi soldiers' bodies lying in the road. The Army has tried to get someone to take them away. At one point the civilian affairs unit had to go out with its loudspeaker system the PsyOps operators, call out to these villagers, call out to the local imam of the local mosque saying, please collect these bodies. You're welcome to out and take these bodies. Take them away for burial. The worst thing the Army could have done of course would be to do a mass burial. The Army is reasonably politically sensitive. They know that Muslims have to be buried with their heads towards Mecca but having said that, it would have been a terrible mistake if the Army had buried these bodies and not allowed for religious - for religious preparation of the Muslim soldiers' bodies here.
So there was a unit, which went out late yesterday. They tried to make contact with some of the Baghdad residents in the western suburbs saying we have Iraqi soldiers here. Would you like to come and collect these soldiers' bodies and it was a great relief, almost a welcoming on the part of the local citizens of Baghdad that we saw saying that yes, they were welcome to come collect the bodies and again they kept asking is he dead yet, is he dead yet. There's like this great repressed enthusiasm that the Iraqi's want to know that they're finally free of Saddam Hussein. Of course, I don't have the answer to that question but having said that, they were very, very - they were just bobbling up enthusiasm waiting to know once and for that Saddam Hussein is dead. So there is going to be a welcome at least on the part of many Iraqis once they know that Saddam Hussein is gone. Again, it's being repressed at this hour.
General Clark, Anderson ...
COOPER: Yeah. General Clark, let me ask you, how important in close quarter urban combat is having civilians on your side?
CLARK: Well, it could be extremely important if the civilians will give us the information on where the Iraqis are and then get out of the way so we deal with them but it would - it's your best source of intelligence really if it's reliable.
The other thing is that maybe if the civilians want us to come in there, they're going to start coming in our direction rather than fleeing for Iraq. Maybe we'll have people rallying toward our side and we'll be able to get information from them coming toward our lines.
COOPER: Walter, how much contact - I mean do you see civilians around you where you are now? Do they - do they approach the lines?
RODGERS: In the position we're in, in the past few days I have seen civilians coming out. It's very interesting to see how they try to - how they try to cope with these situations. Life must go on with them. About a quarter of a mile in that direction I've seen a shepherd in the past 24 hours - actually 48 hours and he was under fire. He was still trying to bring his sheep back into his sheep, goats into the small corral. He put the sheep in at night. We see Iraqi women still trying to wash their laundry, put it out on the line even though a few meters away we've seen burned out vehicles. The other night an Iraqi kamikaze unit came down the top of one of the canals by Baghdad driving this car as quickly as they could. They were initially engaged by the 7th Calvary. Their car was shot up. They managed to get out of the car with their Kalashnikovs. Again, they were shooting at the U.S. Army and in a situation like this; still the Iraqi civilians still are trying to make do. Recall this is a civilization which has seen wars, invasions and battles for four or five, 10,000 years, the Chaldeans, the Parthians (ph), the Cithians (ph), Alexander the Great and every other army since then. So this is an area of the world which more generations has seen invasions and war and people just try to make do as best they can simply - in a word, simply trying to survive.
Anderson ...
COOPER: Walter, I'm going to ask a question of General Clark that I would normally ask to you but I don't want to put you in a bad spot. So General Clark, Walter was reporting earlier about probably going to be seeing increasing missions today, recon missions through the city. What's the purpose of those missions? I mean is it - it's not just the - you know, putting a presence in the city, they psychological factor. What is the actual tactical mission there?
CLARK: Well, that's a very good question and of course, Walter probably could answer it and shouldn't, but if it were just pretty much myself in their shoes, I mean I think the mission would be to move from let's say point A to point B to determine whether the enemy's defending on that axis, to take out an incidental enemy positions that you find in route and maybe point B is an enemy building or headquarters or some item of significance that you're either going to check out to secure to search to seize evidence or whatever and you're doing is you're establishing a pattern. You don't go the same way each time probably and you're running through the city and you're showing unpredictability. You're destroying the will to resist. You're showing your power. So it's partly psychological. It's partly physical.
COOPER: I imagine you're also showing that the Information Minister is not telling the truth when he says U.S. troops aren't anywhere near the capital. That obviously would be part of the message as well.
Walter, we're going to let you go for now. I hope to check in with you soon. Stay safe. Good talking to you as always.
And General Clark, we'll talk with you shortly again as well.
We go from Baghdad now to Basra. Coalition troops still only in partial control of Basra. Of course from the southeast the focus of a lot of action over the last 18 days or so, it is of course Iraq's second largest city and in Basra as Fedayeen fighters continue to hold out in parts of that city, Mike Boettcher filed this report after going on patrol with the U.S. Special Forces as they work to clear one area around Basra.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: On the way into Basra, the Special Forces soldier on the .50 caliber machine gun had a premonition. It wasn't going to be a quiet day. He would be proved right. The team's mission, press into Basra to a point near the university and set up a checkpoint. Anyone suspicious was to be questioned. British tanks would provide cover but there wasn't any time for questions. Iraqi mortar fire made sure of that. Shells dropped less than 100 meters from the Special Forces A team. One barely missed a British tank. There were at least 10 more impacts but the Special Forces A team had moved just out of the mortar's range. Part of the team moved forward for a closer look. The rest of the unit provided cover and scanned nearby buildings, bridges and highways for the Iraqi mortar. An F-18 streaked overhead but British commanders who control this part of the Iraqi war theater did not give the order for it to attack. Back at the checkpoint in Basra where traffic and war intersected, more than 20 Iraqi rocket propelled grenades were discovered in a bunker. The order was given to destroy them.
American and British intelligence believe Iraqi units have stashed weapons throughout Basra for use against any coalition advance. It would soon be dark. The Iraqi mortar team was still at large so the SF team wasted no time preparing their explosive charge. In the race to get away from the impending detonation, our driver avoided running over an unexploded mortar. A British armored vehicle did not. It was disabled. The dark cloud in the distance marked its location. Then, a second detonation, the Iraqi arms cache. The soldier on the .50 caliber was right. It was not a quiet day all for a checkpoint, a temporary checkpoint.
Mike Boettcher, CNN with Special Operations Forces on the outskirts of Basra. (END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: A lot of work to be done.
The parents of rescued POW Jessica Lynch will soon be at their daughter's bedside in Germany and one of Private First Class Lynch's close friends is now officially a casualty of war. The death and life of Lori Ann Piestewa is also ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: You are looking at a live picture from the USS Constellation where we have seen so many sorties launched from over the last 18 days in this war. We're going to bring in Retired General Wesley Clark.
General Clark, as we look at these pictures, there was word today that military aircraft will increasingly be flying urban close air support over the city of Baghdad. What exactly does that mean?
CLARK: Well, it means that the aircraft overhead will be in contact with forward air control teams on the ground so that there'll be someone to actually give them the coordinates of the target and clear the targets of friendlies, so this will be an adding measure of control on the bombing over Baghdad or at least over bombing parts of Baghdad where U.S. troops might be present.
COOPER: Would this be helicopters as well or are we talking fighters and bombers?
CLARK: Well, this is fighters and bombers but the helicopters also will be talking to the people on the ground. They normally do unless their Apaches on deep raids but if their Apaches on deep raids they'll have to be especially careful because this is an area where forces are converging and so it's going to be very important to control any movement of those forces toward each other especially when they're delivering fires ahead of their positions.
COOPER: Talking about delivering fire, this must require a different kind of ammunition, a more - I don't know if it's more precise or less big but it must be some sort of a change.
CLARK: Well, the guided ammunitions come in various sizes from 2,000 pound bombs and penetrating bombs down to 500 pound bombs and then the - some of the aircraft like the A-10 aircraft can launch precise guided warheads with a much smaller like an anti-tank charge on them and so can the helicopters so there's a variety of warheads and they're going to have to look very carefully at how they arm the aircraft because you want the aircraft to be multi-capable when they go on station out there because you don't know what kind of targets you're going to get. You may find a target where you need a cluster bomb unit like anti-aircraft dispersed in the open or you may want a bunker buster bomb. So they'll have a variety of ordinance up there in orbit and then the forward air controller calls for what he needs.
COOPER: I was reading an account in the New York Times just profiling two fighter pilots as they went on a bombing run and they literally went through a checklist I don't know if it was a physical checklist but in their minds at least they went through a checklist where they had to visually sight the target, decide for a fact you know is it definitely a military target, is it near any civilian areas, any schools, any mosques, any place where civilians might get hurt and they had to go through all this checklist before actually dropping the weaponry. That's got to be extraordinarily difficult in an urban environment.
CLARK: It is but - and that's what the pilots are trained to do and that's what the - that's their preparation for their mission. They go through that checklist. They look at aerial photographs. They look at the cases, what they'll call it, how close is too close and the generals back in the combined operation centers make those important calls. Then the - then the pilots make certain calls that are demeaned less important. So this is a very carefully controlled process because the American and British forces understand that unnecessary infrastructure destruction and unintentional civilian casualties can really undercut support for the war or make the Arab hostility even greater, complicates the task of post war governance in Iraq and so it's very important to exactly manage the violence.
COOPER: As we're looking at this live picture from the USS Constellation, we're not seeing many planes taking off. Previously we had been hearing of 1,800 sorties a day. This was several days ago. I haven't heard any figures in the last 24 hours or so. Do you have any sense of what the level of the air war is at this point?
CLARK: I don't but the carriers also do stand down periods where they do maintenance and they do replenishment underway and so forth where they may not be launching a recovery so we could be watching that here. It's also possible that with the troops converging on Baghdad the areas in which the aircraft have been operating are smaller and therefore you need less aircraft on station to deliver the ordinance. At some point the production of targets just becomes very, very difficult in these operations.
COOPER: I read a statement from a Lieutenant General Michael Moseley, who is in charge of the coalition Air Force in Iraq. He said that - he was talking about the kind of ammunitions that would be used in the city of Baghdad, of course the concern being not having too many civilians injured. He talked about, for instance, using a 500 pound laser guided bomb without explosive warheads which would I guess destroy the target without causing civilian damage. How would that - how does that work I mean if it doesn't have a warhead?
CLARK: Well, we've been talking about this before. We talked about putting concrete in these bombs so that - and I don't know whether the coalition has these or not but that was the discussion at least that we would have actual just hard bombs with no explosives and the laser will guide them right into the target and then let's say it's an antennae on top of a building. You'll collapse the building but you won't have an explosion. You'll just have the energy from the weight of this bomb hitting the roof and driving through it.
COOPER: There is also a lot of talk from Lieutenant General Moseley about using unmanned aerial predator drones and the like over the city. What sort of role is that going to play?
CLARK: Well, this is very important because this gives us intelligence dominance of the battlefield and especially when you're working in an urban area where the forces are coming together. We normally have several drones over the battlefield but each drone has only a limited amount of area that it can see and when you combine those and put them over Baghdad you get very good visibility over the entire city. You get a bank of television monitors in which you can see the various portions of the city all the time and those pictures can be transmitted forward down fairly low to the operating commander so unlike conventional battles in previous wars where the commander simply released the troops and said OK, go in there and do your best, now you've got the commander and his staff actually able to monitor the progress of the troops on the ground, see where the resistance is coming from and coordinate the support that the troops, the forward troops need.
COOPER: You know we all start - we started this discussion with this talk about urban close air support, this being what the U.S. military now says they are going to be providing over Baghdad, at least two planes at all times overhead able to be called in. There was a concern though as I recall several days ago that the Iraqis haven't been turning on their radar on some of their anti-aircraft weaponry in the city of Baghdad because if they turned it on, that would - you know the U.S. planes overhead could hone in on it and destroy it. If that has been the case, if they haven't turned on their radars, if they still have those anti-aircraft positions in place, what's to stop them now from using them against the planes that are circling overhead? I mean do we have dominance of the skies?
CLARK: Well, it's - there's probably nothing to stop a few of the remaining Iraqi systems from turning on their radars Anderson but what I think has been significantly degraded in this integrated nature of the air defense system, what makes the doctrinal air defense system so difficult is that they are integrated so it's a radar here and a missile there and another radar somewhere else and the information's cross correlated and the missiles that you weren't aware of can shoot at you and radars that are out of your range are tracking you but you see as this has been broken down as we continue to target command centers and communication centers.
It's much more difficult for those radars to pose a significant threat. There's always the chance that a radar will come up and a pilot who's low enough could be in the envelope of one of these missiles and could be hit but as we're looking over the area with our unmanned aerial vehicles and our overhead imagery and many other assets, we're likely to pick up those assets, those in the air defense assets before they can shoot at us. They've got to be out in the open after all to fire up. So we've got a very good chance, as the area is restricted of seeing them first.
COOPER: All right. General Clark, good to talk to you as always and you have been looking at a live picture of the USS Constellation. We will continue to come back to that picture every now and then. Not much happening but still I think fascinating to see actually live what is happening right now on the other side of the world. Commanders caution of course the war is far from over yet they may be relieved that many things would happen have not. When we come back, the acts of sabotage military planners thought they'd see and why Iraq's leaders might be holding back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Hello. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in the CNN Newsroom. Here's what's happening at this hour.
U.S. troops are flexing more muscle in the heart of Baghdad. CNN's Walter Rodgers reports army recognizance missions have resumed in the capital city and forces will begin carving the city into security zones. U.S. troops remain under hostile fire from pockets of resistance.
Under the cover of darkness, the British Royal Marines in Basra rushed to flush out members of Saddam's Fedayeen forces and crush pockets of resistance. A number of suspects were captured in house to house raids.
Another TV appearance by Saddam Hussein, this time Iraqi television showed video of Hussein meeting with his two sons, Uday and Qusay, but U.S. officials say there is no indication of where or when that tape was made.
Speaking out in Florida, more than 15,000 gathered in support of U.S. troops and in Massachusetts a small crowd met at the Boston Commons, some carrying banners that said, "wage peace, not war."
Come rain, snow or the gloom of war, the U.S. military mail will be delivered. The U.S. Postal Service chartered two 747 cargo jets to deliver a whopping 750,000 pounds of mail a week to U.S. troops. That's a huge jump from the 21,000 pounds a week delivered last October.
Those are the headlines at this hour. Now back to more of coverage of war in Iraq with Anderson.
COOPER: Fredricka, thanks very much.
There were a slew of predictions made about what would happen in Iraq even before coalition troops set foot in the country but what have any of those early fears and strategies come to pass or have any of those fears and strategies come to pass? Bill Schneider joins me now with a look of what has and has not happened -- Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well as you say, a lot of military experts predicted some pretty terrible things that the Iraqis might do to stop the coalition and most of them haven't happened, at least not yet. Why not?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Immediately after being attacked, some feared the Iraqi regime might fire missiles at Israel as it did in 1991 to try to draw Israel into the war. It didn't. USA Today cited military experts who said the Iraqi army could slow a U.S. advance by blowing up bridges, using refugees to clog roads and flooding rivers to wash out roads. A dam near Karbala was wired but not demolished and as for the bridges ...
BRIGADIER GENERAL VINCE BROOKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: The 5th Corps forces were able to seize a bridge intact over the Euphrates River. It was in fact rigged for demolition. They were able to remove the demolition, cross the bridge and continue the attack.
SCHNEIDER: In 1991, the Iraqis set the oil fields of Kuwait ablaze. There were a few fires early on but nothing like the conflagrations of 1991.
Everyone expected Iraq to unleash chemical and biological weapons. So far it hasn't happened.
What about Saddam's elite Republican Guard units that were supposed to form a ring of steel around Baghdad? The steel seemed to melt quickly under allied bombardment.
BROOKS: We have penetrated the defensive ring that was set by the Republican Guard forces.
SCHNEIDER: What happened? The Iraqis may not want to use chemical and biological weapons even if they have them and hand the U.S. an immense propaganda victory. It could be there is no command and control structure and Iraqis generals are fearful of taking provocative actions on their own especially because President Bush has issued a serious warning.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... that if you launch a weapon of mass destruction, you'll be tried as a war criminal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Maybe Saddam Hussein is not in control and those who are, are looking forward to after the war. They have to ask themselves do they want to be put on trial or do they want to have a future in the new Iraq?
COOPER: There was so many of con (ph). They talk about that ring of steel. It turned out to be like steel wool if anything. They talked about using American uniforms but it just didn't happen.
SCHNEIDER: It did not happen and now of course they're talking about unconventional warfare, some things that are not traditional. They said they were going to come out to the airport. That didn't happen either. The one remaining fear is that they're all - that the Iraqis are setting a trap to lure the Americans into Baghdad so that they can get trapped in urban warfare because the Iraqis know urban warfare is something that would be very, very difficult for the United States.
COOPER: Yes.
SCHNEIDER: And we're determined not to do that.
COOPER: All right. Bill Schneider, thanks very much. Good.
When we come back, we're going to go to Ramstein Air Force Base where we have seen so many of the wounded brought back home, brought back for treatment. We'll be right back.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Anderson, coming up after the break, we'll be broadcasting here from Germany with the latest on the reunion of Jessica Lynch and her family, the teenaged prisoner of war liberated by U.S. Special Forces.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Please don't let anybody leave me here. Those words spoken by Private First Class Jessica Lynch to one of her rescuers during Wednesday's daring commando raid on an Iraqi hospital. She, of course, still recuperating in Germany where her parents are due to arrive shortly and we join our Matthew Chance now for the latest details -- Matthew.
CHANCE: Thank you Anderson.
And this is an amazing story we've all been - we've all been following and one which has really shifted its focus here to Germany and the U.S. military facility where Private Jessica Lynch, the teenaged prisoner of war, so dramatically rescued by U.S. Special Forces last week is still recovering from multiple injuries and preparing to be reunited finally with her parents. We saw those emotional scenes in Charleston, West Virginia earlier today as her parents began their journey to Germany. Let's take a listen into Greg Lynch and those emotional scenes in West Virginia.
GREG LYNCH SR., FATHER OF JESSICA LYNCH: Our hearts are really sad for her other troop members and the other families.
CHANCE: All right. Well, the Air Force plane, they're expected to touch down on here in Germany at the Ramstein Air Base a short distance from here is expected within the next few hours. It's not clear whether we're going to get any access to the family. The U.S. military officials here in Germany are saying that this is a private time for the family at this stage but of course, what we are all waiting for here in Germany is word from Private Lynch herself because remember she's just 19 and the details of her capture and treatment at the hands of Iraqi forces are still unclear to us in the media. What we do know is that other members of her 507th Ordinance Maintenance Company were killed as referred to by Greg Lynch earlier. Others as we remember were made and forced to answer questions on Iraqi television. So I suppose comparatively, compared to the plight of some of her comrades Jessica's escape was an extremely lucky one -- Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. It certainly was. Matthew, any sense what her condition is at this time?
CHANCE: No real confirmation on that but we've been told by U.S. military officials that she's making a sound recovery. We're told that the initial reports that she had been shot and had been stabbed were incorrect. We do understand that she had quite serious injuries to her legs and to her arms, a number of broken bones but clearly she's believed to be in a stable enough condition for her parents to be flown over and for them to meet up finally.
COOPER: And is there any word on how often they've actually spoke thus far?
CHANCE: Well, we certainly know that there have been regular telephone calls. Undoubtedly those telephone calls have been - have been daily lasting for approximately 15 minutes on each occasion but as I say, this will be the first time that since this ordeal began Jessica will finally be able to meet up in person with her family members.
COOPER: And is there any sort of press conference scheduled or any kind of pubic announcements?
CHANCE: Not at this stage. What they're saying is at least in these first hours maybe even in these first days when the family are reunited with Jessica, this will be seen very much as a private time for the family. The family will be staying on the Ramstein base itself, the U.S. military facility in this part of Germany. They won't be giving any press conferences that are scheduled yet until perhaps early next week when we may see some word both in the parents and possibly from Jessica herself.
COOPER: All right. Matthew Chance at Ramstein Regional Medical Center in Germany, thanks very much. I should also point out that Jessica Lynch's dog tags were found by Marines Saturday in the home of a suspected Baath Party representative.
CNN's Jason Bellini actually got one of them, showed it to the camera, quite dramatic images. Those dog tags eventually to be returned to Jessica Lynch we are told.
Moving on, obviously opinions on the war can vary from city to city. When we come back we'll be joined by three journalists to get a feel for what is being said and printed in different communities throughout the country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Some of the most compelling images and sights and sounds have been brought to us by Martin Savidge over the last 18 days or so. He is with Marines and we are told is on the move and he joins us now.
We've just lost Martin Savidge. That's one of the things at this hour so many of our correspondents call in. We've got Martin back.
Martin, what's the latest where you are?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Well Anderson, we're just expecting that the column is going to begin moving again. We have been stationary. We're back in the forward element of the 1st Battalion 7th Marines. They have been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for us for about 24 hours now. We were caught back because of fighting that was taking place. We understand that there has been a significant amount of fighting that the 1st Battalion 7th Marines were involved in. They were going on an objective that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I'm just going to point out we're going to start moving so you'd better get yourself in the vehicle. We're going to have the camera move as we attempt to remain with the convoy. We have had indications of fighting as we've begun to move up and rejoin the main body of the convoy coming into areas where you see buildings that have burned out. You see also indications where there may have been these sort of oil trenches that have been set on fire. We can see dark clues of smoke rising in the distance.
So a very unusual site about 200 yards down the road, the first time we had ever seen this, a destroyed American M1-A1 Abrams tank sitting in the middle of the road just totally burned out and a blackened hulk of what it used to be and that's one of the reasons that we know that there had been fighting. We had been told that the 5th Marines who are ahead of us who had gone through this area a couple of days ago, actually about 48 hours ago and had run into resistance including rocket propelled grenades and heavy small arms fire and that as a result of that a number of other tanks had been hit. We heard about three and that they had suffered casualties. There was no way to ascertain that as we went by this vehicle if any Americans had been wounded, killed. We just had seen the tank and it was - it was just an unusual site. We had not seen the destruction of an Abrams tank before and we continue to push in. You can see now that as we stop and this is traditional, when the convoy comes to a rest they punch out security here and the Marines will simply guard and watch over.
And now we're being told we may be moving forward once more. This is short of the slow pattern that a convoy makes especially when going through an area where there has been combat and in the tricky procedure of linking up with a forward element and we're sort of rolling right along with it but we are in the southeastern portion entering towards the extreme southeastern part of the Baghdad area. Keep in mind that you have the Army that was pushing in on Baghdad from the west and for the Marines the eastern sector of Baghdad has been their job so they're pushing up a different way from a different direction and thereby whatever they run into may be different as far as opposition and elements that they fight from what the Army has been facing -- Anderson.
COOPER: Martin, I see that one of the Marines going as you said doing security as this convoy sort of moves slowly. Have there been any pot shots taken, any small arms fire directed to the group you're with?
SAVIDGE: Well, as we said, a lead element ran obviously into - well they didn't run into trouble. They were looking for trouble. That's their whole purpose. The 5th Marines had a problem. The 5th Marines don't stop. They engage and then push on and then leave it up to elements that follow in their rear to take on whatever pockets of resistance are found and that's what yesterday the 1st Battalion 7th Marines were involved in. We understand they were going from bunker to bunker searching to find any troops. If these were remnants of the Republican Guard or just regular Iraqi forces we don't know. It was described at that time to us from what we heard as skirmishing. Now throughout the day there had been artillery barrages. These were all outgoing rounds stemming from the U.S. Marines in the direction of where this fighting was taking place. Last night as we bed down for just a couple of hours to sleep we were loudly awakened by heavy artillery going off and it was very close to our position so you not only heard the boom but you certainly felt the concussive blasts as they were firing right over our heads and that went on we think for about an hour or so and then has quieted down. So it has not gone completely silent here and it is not without some opposition as the Marines move in but again it is nothing that they're not capable of handling they tell us.
Anderson ...
COOPER: Martin, we're also joined by Retired General Wesley Clark as we often are on News Night.
General Clark and feel free for you General Clark to ask Martin any questions you have but General Clark, I'm sort of struck by these images. You know we sort of became used to seeing those fast moving images through the Iraqi desert, Walter Rodgers charging with the 7th Calvary. The images we're seeing now through Martin Savidge far more methodical slow but nonetheless just as necessary.
CLARK: Well, that's exactly right. The Marines have had a much different fight than the Army did. The Army's avenue of approach from the beginning was designed to avoid populated areas whereas the Marines were given the mission of moving through central Iraq and they had a tough fight there in Nasiriya. They had tough fights moving up northeast from Nasiriya and this one looks like it was a tough fight. It still may be tough moving into Baghdad.
The other thing that of course is when you're seeing this column move, they're at the rear. The roads are congested. They're moving by stages. They're moving carefully and they've got their security out. So it's a much different battlefield here because each of these houses and so forth that are around there are possible enemy forces inside those houses. To walk into those houses is to ask for a fire fight and so these Marines that are out here pulling security are ready but they're trying to stay with the convoy and be ready in case they're attacked but they're not looking to clear the way.
COOPER: General Clark, do you have any questions for Martin?
CLARK: I do. The M1-A1 tanks that were hit, I mean that's obviously something that's going to be of huge interest. That's a very tough tank. It's very well protected, but it does have areas on it that may be vulnerable but are we sure it was rocket propelled grenades because there are some heavier weapons that could have hit these tanks that would have had a better chance of penetrating? Just out of curiosity as someone who's spent a lot time around M1-A1 tanks, I wondered, how do we know it's RPGs?
COOPER: Martin? SAVIDGE: We don't. That's clear. At this particular point we are not sure actually what may have taken that tank out. It is also possible that maybe that tank was just damaged to a point that it could not be moved and so to make sure that it was not used in any way by opposition forces that it was destroyed by the Marines themselves. We don't know particularly. We had only heard that there were three tanks damaged. Now some of the tanks had been damaged. Usually an RPG as you point out will not take out an Abrams tank. At best if you were lucky with a shot, you might knock the tread off which is something that can be easily repaired out in the field and in some cases we have seen treads just laying at the side of the road where they had made those repairs. So at this point having driven by it, it was just the fact seeing the destruction to it. Whether it was taken out by something heavier or whether it was destroyed by the Marines simply because they couldn't move it forward is unclear. When we link up with the main body we hope to get some answers to that.
CLARK: And Anderson ...
SAVIDGE: As I understand, we're getting ready to move again.
CLARK: Anderson, we might want to just say to the viewers that these tanks have been designed to really provide maximum protection for the crews so in some cases the tanks have parts that are called blow out panels so let's say if the ammunition blows up, it blows out a panel on the outside of the tank but the crew inside is protected and so sometimes the damage to the tank can look far worse than you know it is in terms of the crew.
COOPER: Well, on that M1-A1 Abrams, protection not just against shells and the like but against nuclear, biological, chemical as well.
CLARK: That's exactly right. We put a lot of effort into the design of this tank to protect people and you can be sure that our - we'll do post battle damage assessments on everything that was hit and we'll be looking for any ways to further enhance the material. It's just one of the functions of Armies and Marine Corps. That's what we do.
COOPER: All right. Martin, it looks like you're on the move. We're probably going to lose you soon. Just a final word, I'm not going to ask you where you're going but what is the morale like among the Marines you're with?
SAVIDGE: Well, the morale still really is extremely high. I mean obviously the closer they get to Baghdad they feel the closer that they are eventually getting to home. One of the things that keeps us moving slowly here is as you can see this is sort of an industrial area. I don't know if you'd call that industrial park but there are a lot of compounds. There are a lot of what appear to be businesses on the side of the road that are walled in and in the war like circumstances we find ourselves each one of these can be potentially a hiding place or potentially an ambush so we move slowly forward. The armored personnel carriers know about.
They're the heavier fighting force with Marines inside as well as heavy armaments on the outside and they sort of probe into these areas before the column can move forward. It's, as you pointed, it's slow. It's methodical job. It's also a very necessary one. You don't want to pass one of these positions where perhaps there could be tanks or other heavy weaponry that is shielded or hidden and then have it come out and strike you from the rear.
COOPER: Martin Savidge, it is slow. It is methodical but you are moving. You're moving forward and that is a good thing inevitably. Martin Savidge, we'll check in with you as soon as we can.
General Clark, thank you.
We'll be back just after a short break taking a pulse of the nation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. Every night we check the pulse of America and hear what people are saying in different parts of the country. Joining me tonight from New York, Walter Fields, the editor of Northstarnetwork.com from Portland, Oregon, Mark Zusman, editor of the newspaper, "Williamette Week," and joining us in L.A. Tammy Bruce a columnist for Newsmax.com. Let's start with Tammy.
Tammy, what are you hearing from your readers on Newsmax.com? What's their take on things so far?
TAMMY BRUCE, COLUMNIST, NEWSMAX.COM: Well first, there was a lot of concern about the anti-war protests about the comfort it potentially was giving to the enemy putting our young men and women further at risk but more interestingly it's like a mobilization emotionally that happened after September 11. It is so clear especially with embedded reporters like your Martin Savidge and Christiane Amanpour that there is good and evil, right and wrong involved here and America is obviously involved in something that's important and right and the support for the war has increased even with the casualties and Americans once again despite the howling from the far left in this country are realizing and coming together gosh, you know this is something we must be doing. Iraqis do need us. The leadership there is barbaric and they're seeing the Iraqi people really as an example in the lawyer who saved Private Lynch, the Iraqi lawyer and his family are the people that we're saving. So there is a much clearer view of why we're doing this and the importance of doing it.
COOPER: Walter Fields is the editor of Northstarnetwork.com, an African American public affairs web site.
Is it clear to your - to your readers, to the people that go to your Web site what this is all about?
WALTER FIELDS, EDITOR, NORTHSTARNETWORK.COM: Not at all. I mean our readers aren't looking at this as Operation Iraqi Freedom. They're viewing it more as a sequel to the "Thief of Baghdad," and I think it reflects a widespread opposition among most black Americans to this war and one of the real concerns is, you know, our view that much of the coverage has been extremely sanitized in terms of the real impact of this war particularly on civilians in Iraq. I think certainly the fact that you don't see any black journalists covering this war for the most part. You don't see any black journalists embedded with the troops. I think the fact that you don't see much coverage or much you know reaction from black soldiers in the field. There's widespread skepticism among the African American community about the true intent of the government in this war and I think reflects the fact that we don't believe that this country can liberate another country when it hasn't provided those freedoms to many of us here in the United States.
COOPER: Mark, I believe you've actually in your community suffered some losses during this war. How tolerant is the community for the price they have so far paid?
MARK ZUSMAN, EDITOR, "WILLIAMETTE WEEK": Well Anderson, you're correct. We - Oregon has lost four men and women which is really out of proportion to our population and it's kind of interesting because Oregon is not a state with either a large defense industry or you know we don't have any Camp Lejeunes nearby. We don't have sort of the institutional support that would suggest that we would be pro-war but we certainly have more than our share of men and women serving over there.
I haven't seen any good polls in Portland to reflect the opinions of people here and my guess is it's probably pretty close to the national sentiment but I will tell you that in Portland there has been a very vocal minority that has been protesting the war since the day the bombs dropped. Virtually every day or night there have been rallies of one sort or another in Portland a couple of which have been quite sizable and I do think that there is a pretty substantial at least minority of people in this city who are questioning at least the motives of the war and I guess moreover, questioning whether or not we're going to be able to win the peace as well.
COOPER: Tammy, Walter Fields was saying that some 70 percent or so of his readers do not support the war and he brought up a lot of points about his readership primarily African American, their lack of support for this war. Are you seeing that among your readership or ...
BRUCE: Not at all, not at all and the polls don't show that either. We're not only not seeing a stabilization of the numbers. Support for the war across all Americans is increasing exponentially.
(CROSSTALK)
FIELDS: That's not true. That's not true not among African Americans. African Americans -- no. Gallup -- every poll that's indicated has shown that black Americans are extremely opposed to this war.
(CROSSTALK)
BRUCE: And what I do want to say is that Americans also are tired of the moral relativism and the cynicism and the refusal of some people to want to help and free Iraqi people who only have the "coalition of the willing" to depend on to be so selfish and so narcissistic to say that we shouldn't be there or do this is really beyond the pale (ph)...
FIELDS: It is not a point of being selfish.
(CROSSTALK)
FIELDS: First of all, African Americans are probably the most loyal segment of the American society...
BRUCE: It's a selfish position to take to be against this war.
FIELDS: My great-great-grandfather fought in the Civil War. My father and his an aunt were World War II veterans and...
(CROSSTALK)
FIELDS: You can't find a more loyal segment of American society than black Americans. It's not selfish.
BRUCE: Yes it is.
FIELDS: There's no higher responsibility for a U.S. citizen than to stand against it own government when we believe that government is wrong, and it's taking positions that are opposite to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BRUCE: It is selfish when you are saying you are not seeing the right skin color on the people who are reporting this war.
FIELDS: Excuse me?
BRUCE: It is selfish and narcissistic.
FIELDS: No, we're not seeing the right skin color. I don't see black journalists reporting this war...
BRUCE: That is absurd.
FIELDS: It is absurd?
BRUCE: And that's what this is about for you? That is what this is about for you?
FIELDS: Name black journalists that are reporting of this war. Excuse me?
BRUCE: People are dying, and this is what this is about for you. That's selfish.
(CROSSTALK)
FIELDS: What this is about is whether or not this is a legitimate exercise of authority by the United States government so it's not a point of selfishness. It's a point of looking at the reality of this country, which you can't speak from as a white female for the viewpoints of African Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Tammy, Walter, Mark. I am sorry. We are going to have to leave it there. We are completely out of time. Appreciate you joining us for this -- this pulse of the nation. Thanks very much.
FIELDS: Thank you.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 5, 2003 - 23:02 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: I'm in the news room and here's what's happening this hour.
New explosions were heard in Baghdad overnight as coalition forces tightened the noose around the city. U.S. forces are in the heart of Baghdad challenging Saddam Hussein's defenders. CNN's Walter Rodgers reports many Iraqi officials are fleeing the city.
Along the northern front, U.S. bombers pounded Iraqi positions after being spotted by U.S. Special Forces on the ground. Those Special Forces have joined up with Kurdish fighters.
Dramatic details of the rescue of Jessica Lynch are coming up revealing a wounded soldier who hid under her sheet when U.S. Special Forces burst into an Iraqi hospital to rescue her. CENTCOM says as she was being whisked away Lynch told one rescuer "please don't let anybody leave me." Her parents flew to Germany today to visit Lynch who is in intensive care.
Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington, D.C. received four more casualties from Operation Iraqi Freedom. The four who arrived from Germany included one serviceman in serious but stable condition. So far the hospital has treated 26 service personnel injured in the war.
In other news, a 60 mile stretch of the Pennsylvania Turnpike was shut down tonight after a number of fog related accidents. Four people were killed and more than a dozen injured, three critically.
Those are the headlines at this hour. Now back to you Anderson.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Fredricka, thanks very much. We actually were going to go to break but we're not now because Walter Rodgers is standing by. He's of course embedded with the 7th Calvary. He's got some new information for us.
Walter, what's the latest where you are?
WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello Anderson. The U.S. Army is now so confident of the situation in Baghdad that it plans to send more armored recognizance missions into the city again today. You'll recall that the 2nd Brigade 3rd Infantry Division made a historic thrust into Baghdad yesterday and then moved out. Again, there will be more U.S. Army muscle flexing today perhaps even the Marines as well as the Army continues to exert its dominance over the Iraqi capital. Additionally the plans are moving ahead so quickly now that the Army is planning its SASO operations. I believe that stands for security and stability operations afterwards which means essentially that the area of Baghdad and around Baghdad is going to be carved up into security zones in which those soldiers or those units are assigned to various security zones to act more or less as the policing forces in those and again there's a rapid progression of events that's going to unfold throughout this day some of which we can't disclose but by the end of this day here in Baghdad you're going to see some really remarkable progress by the U.S. military, particularly the U.S. Army which has just led the attack throughout the operation and now is going to be in the - in the vanguard of leading the peace as well.
Anderson ...
COOPER: Walter, does the mindset of the Army troops you are with, does it change now that this is a city operation versus what you have been encountering over the last 17 days or so?
RODGERS: Yes, it does, of course because every time these armed recognizance missions go into the city of Baghdad, the Iraqi capital, you have to realize that they are almost certain to be under fire. So many of these soldiers even though some of the generals appear to be suggesting that it's only a matter of a few more days, one senior officer, a senior general suggested that all the military had to do was keep the pressure on for a few more days. He said we have the Iraqis "rocking backwards on their heels." Still, there will be U.S. soldiers under continuous hostile fire as you continue to see these pockets of resistance.
Let me add one thing about some of the civilian reactions, civilian populous that we've seen. One of the civilian affairs units of the U.S. Army was on a patrol recently and trying to urge the Iraqis to come out and collect some of the dead Iraqi soldiers' bodies that had been lying beside the road on the outskirts of Baghdad. The local Iraqis were very, very skeptical. They said who are you and then they - then they seemed very relieved to discover it was an American Army unit but even more importantly they kept asking is he dead yet? Have you gotten him yet and you could see this enthusiasm still being suppressed within the Iraqi people on the outskirts of Baghdad but all they wanted to know was Saddam Hussein dead. I think you'll see this enormous emotional release among the Iraqi people when that happens. We still have to point out though that U.S. soldiers on these recognizance missions expected later in the day will be under fire in the city of Baghdad.
Anderson ...
COOPER: Walter, we're also going to bring in Retired General Wesley Clark who is joining us well.
General Clark, you're hearing what Walter Rodgers has been reporting, more recon missions. What goes through your mind?
RETIRED GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Well, I think that this is part of the phase of keeping the pressure on, identifying the centers of resistance, finding out how strong they are and taking down their will to resist round by round as they're taken and they're - this should crumble the Iraqi positions. It may not be necessary to occupy large areas early but that's the question. The question is OK we do this today. When do we feel like we're going to go in there and actually carve up the city and occupy it because that's the point at which we're at risk where they have still numerical superiority.
The other issue for Walt Rodgers would be this, Anderson. It would be what about the civilians that are the area? Are the troops seeing the civilians? Are they attempting to warn the civilians or do the civilians just get out of the way and we don't know what the damage is to the civilians in terms of incidental casualties?
COOPER: Well General Clark - General Clark I know you actually want to unseat Aaron Brown as an anchor here at CNN so feel free to ask directly to Walter any questions you have.
CLARK: Walter, what about civilians and what instructions can you tell us has been given about the civilians on these missions?
RODGERS: I can't tell you about the heart of Baghdad. I can tell you about the suburbs where we've been for the last 48 hours or so. It's an excellent question, General, and what we have seen is the civilians being very, very weary, very, very standoffish but we had an incident here in the past couple of days, which is an important vignette. In this part of the world, in the Islamic part of the world, bodies are supposed to be buried within 24 hours after a victim being killed. We've seen Iraqi soldiers' bodies lying in the road. The Army has tried to get someone to take them away. At one point the civilian affairs unit had to go out with its loudspeaker system the PsyOps operators, call out to these villagers, call out to the local imam of the local mosque saying, please collect these bodies. You're welcome to out and take these bodies. Take them away for burial. The worst thing the Army could have done of course would be to do a mass burial. The Army is reasonably politically sensitive. They know that Muslims have to be buried with their heads towards Mecca but having said that, it would have been a terrible mistake if the Army had buried these bodies and not allowed for religious - for religious preparation of the Muslim soldiers' bodies here.
So there was a unit, which went out late yesterday. They tried to make contact with some of the Baghdad residents in the western suburbs saying we have Iraqi soldiers here. Would you like to come and collect these soldiers' bodies and it was a great relief, almost a welcoming on the part of the local citizens of Baghdad that we saw saying that yes, they were welcome to come collect the bodies and again they kept asking is he dead yet, is he dead yet. There's like this great repressed enthusiasm that the Iraqi's want to know that they're finally free of Saddam Hussein. Of course, I don't have the answer to that question but having said that, they were very, very - they were just bobbling up enthusiasm waiting to know once and for that Saddam Hussein is dead. So there is going to be a welcome at least on the part of many Iraqis once they know that Saddam Hussein is gone. Again, it's being repressed at this hour.
General Clark, Anderson ...
COOPER: Yeah. General Clark, let me ask you, how important in close quarter urban combat is having civilians on your side?
CLARK: Well, it could be extremely important if the civilians will give us the information on where the Iraqis are and then get out of the way so we deal with them but it would - it's your best source of intelligence really if it's reliable.
The other thing is that maybe if the civilians want us to come in there, they're going to start coming in our direction rather than fleeing for Iraq. Maybe we'll have people rallying toward our side and we'll be able to get information from them coming toward our lines.
COOPER: Walter, how much contact - I mean do you see civilians around you where you are now? Do they - do they approach the lines?
RODGERS: In the position we're in, in the past few days I have seen civilians coming out. It's very interesting to see how they try to - how they try to cope with these situations. Life must go on with them. About a quarter of a mile in that direction I've seen a shepherd in the past 24 hours - actually 48 hours and he was under fire. He was still trying to bring his sheep back into his sheep, goats into the small corral. He put the sheep in at night. We see Iraqi women still trying to wash their laundry, put it out on the line even though a few meters away we've seen burned out vehicles. The other night an Iraqi kamikaze unit came down the top of one of the canals by Baghdad driving this car as quickly as they could. They were initially engaged by the 7th Calvary. Their car was shot up. They managed to get out of the car with their Kalashnikovs. Again, they were shooting at the U.S. Army and in a situation like this; still the Iraqi civilians still are trying to make do. Recall this is a civilization which has seen wars, invasions and battles for four or five, 10,000 years, the Chaldeans, the Parthians (ph), the Cithians (ph), Alexander the Great and every other army since then. So this is an area of the world which more generations has seen invasions and war and people just try to make do as best they can simply - in a word, simply trying to survive.
Anderson ...
COOPER: Walter, I'm going to ask a question of General Clark that I would normally ask to you but I don't want to put you in a bad spot. So General Clark, Walter was reporting earlier about probably going to be seeing increasing missions today, recon missions through the city. What's the purpose of those missions? I mean is it - it's not just the - you know, putting a presence in the city, they psychological factor. What is the actual tactical mission there?
CLARK: Well, that's a very good question and of course, Walter probably could answer it and shouldn't, but if it were just pretty much myself in their shoes, I mean I think the mission would be to move from let's say point A to point B to determine whether the enemy's defending on that axis, to take out an incidental enemy positions that you find in route and maybe point B is an enemy building or headquarters or some item of significance that you're either going to check out to secure to search to seize evidence or whatever and you're doing is you're establishing a pattern. You don't go the same way each time probably and you're running through the city and you're showing unpredictability. You're destroying the will to resist. You're showing your power. So it's partly psychological. It's partly physical.
COOPER: I imagine you're also showing that the Information Minister is not telling the truth when he says U.S. troops aren't anywhere near the capital. That obviously would be part of the message as well.
Walter, we're going to let you go for now. I hope to check in with you soon. Stay safe. Good talking to you as always.
And General Clark, we'll talk with you shortly again as well.
We go from Baghdad now to Basra. Coalition troops still only in partial control of Basra. Of course from the southeast the focus of a lot of action over the last 18 days or so, it is of course Iraq's second largest city and in Basra as Fedayeen fighters continue to hold out in parts of that city, Mike Boettcher filed this report after going on patrol with the U.S. Special Forces as they work to clear one area around Basra.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: On the way into Basra, the Special Forces soldier on the .50 caliber machine gun had a premonition. It wasn't going to be a quiet day. He would be proved right. The team's mission, press into Basra to a point near the university and set up a checkpoint. Anyone suspicious was to be questioned. British tanks would provide cover but there wasn't any time for questions. Iraqi mortar fire made sure of that. Shells dropped less than 100 meters from the Special Forces A team. One barely missed a British tank. There were at least 10 more impacts but the Special Forces A team had moved just out of the mortar's range. Part of the team moved forward for a closer look. The rest of the unit provided cover and scanned nearby buildings, bridges and highways for the Iraqi mortar. An F-18 streaked overhead but British commanders who control this part of the Iraqi war theater did not give the order for it to attack. Back at the checkpoint in Basra where traffic and war intersected, more than 20 Iraqi rocket propelled grenades were discovered in a bunker. The order was given to destroy them.
American and British intelligence believe Iraqi units have stashed weapons throughout Basra for use against any coalition advance. It would soon be dark. The Iraqi mortar team was still at large so the SF team wasted no time preparing their explosive charge. In the race to get away from the impending detonation, our driver avoided running over an unexploded mortar. A British armored vehicle did not. It was disabled. The dark cloud in the distance marked its location. Then, a second detonation, the Iraqi arms cache. The soldier on the .50 caliber was right. It was not a quiet day all for a checkpoint, a temporary checkpoint.
Mike Boettcher, CNN with Special Operations Forces on the outskirts of Basra. (END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: A lot of work to be done.
The parents of rescued POW Jessica Lynch will soon be at their daughter's bedside in Germany and one of Private First Class Lynch's close friends is now officially a casualty of war. The death and life of Lori Ann Piestewa is also ahead.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: You are looking at a live picture from the USS Constellation where we have seen so many sorties launched from over the last 18 days in this war. We're going to bring in Retired General Wesley Clark.
General Clark, as we look at these pictures, there was word today that military aircraft will increasingly be flying urban close air support over the city of Baghdad. What exactly does that mean?
CLARK: Well, it means that the aircraft overhead will be in contact with forward air control teams on the ground so that there'll be someone to actually give them the coordinates of the target and clear the targets of friendlies, so this will be an adding measure of control on the bombing over Baghdad or at least over bombing parts of Baghdad where U.S. troops might be present.
COOPER: Would this be helicopters as well or are we talking fighters and bombers?
CLARK: Well, this is fighters and bombers but the helicopters also will be talking to the people on the ground. They normally do unless their Apaches on deep raids but if their Apaches on deep raids they'll have to be especially careful because this is an area where forces are converging and so it's going to be very important to control any movement of those forces toward each other especially when they're delivering fires ahead of their positions.
COOPER: Talking about delivering fire, this must require a different kind of ammunition, a more - I don't know if it's more precise or less big but it must be some sort of a change.
CLARK: Well, the guided ammunitions come in various sizes from 2,000 pound bombs and penetrating bombs down to 500 pound bombs and then the - some of the aircraft like the A-10 aircraft can launch precise guided warheads with a much smaller like an anti-tank charge on them and so can the helicopters so there's a variety of warheads and they're going to have to look very carefully at how they arm the aircraft because you want the aircraft to be multi-capable when they go on station out there because you don't know what kind of targets you're going to get. You may find a target where you need a cluster bomb unit like anti-aircraft dispersed in the open or you may want a bunker buster bomb. So they'll have a variety of ordinance up there in orbit and then the forward air controller calls for what he needs.
COOPER: I was reading an account in the New York Times just profiling two fighter pilots as they went on a bombing run and they literally went through a checklist I don't know if it was a physical checklist but in their minds at least they went through a checklist where they had to visually sight the target, decide for a fact you know is it definitely a military target, is it near any civilian areas, any schools, any mosques, any place where civilians might get hurt and they had to go through all this checklist before actually dropping the weaponry. That's got to be extraordinarily difficult in an urban environment.
CLARK: It is but - and that's what the pilots are trained to do and that's what the - that's their preparation for their mission. They go through that checklist. They look at aerial photographs. They look at the cases, what they'll call it, how close is too close and the generals back in the combined operation centers make those important calls. Then the - then the pilots make certain calls that are demeaned less important. So this is a very carefully controlled process because the American and British forces understand that unnecessary infrastructure destruction and unintentional civilian casualties can really undercut support for the war or make the Arab hostility even greater, complicates the task of post war governance in Iraq and so it's very important to exactly manage the violence.
COOPER: As we're looking at this live picture from the USS Constellation, we're not seeing many planes taking off. Previously we had been hearing of 1,800 sorties a day. This was several days ago. I haven't heard any figures in the last 24 hours or so. Do you have any sense of what the level of the air war is at this point?
CLARK: I don't but the carriers also do stand down periods where they do maintenance and they do replenishment underway and so forth where they may not be launching a recovery so we could be watching that here. It's also possible that with the troops converging on Baghdad the areas in which the aircraft have been operating are smaller and therefore you need less aircraft on station to deliver the ordinance. At some point the production of targets just becomes very, very difficult in these operations.
COOPER: I read a statement from a Lieutenant General Michael Moseley, who is in charge of the coalition Air Force in Iraq. He said that - he was talking about the kind of ammunitions that would be used in the city of Baghdad, of course the concern being not having too many civilians injured. He talked about, for instance, using a 500 pound laser guided bomb without explosive warheads which would I guess destroy the target without causing civilian damage. How would that - how does that work I mean if it doesn't have a warhead?
CLARK: Well, we've been talking about this before. We talked about putting concrete in these bombs so that - and I don't know whether the coalition has these or not but that was the discussion at least that we would have actual just hard bombs with no explosives and the laser will guide them right into the target and then let's say it's an antennae on top of a building. You'll collapse the building but you won't have an explosion. You'll just have the energy from the weight of this bomb hitting the roof and driving through it.
COOPER: There is also a lot of talk from Lieutenant General Moseley about using unmanned aerial predator drones and the like over the city. What sort of role is that going to play?
CLARK: Well, this is very important because this gives us intelligence dominance of the battlefield and especially when you're working in an urban area where the forces are coming together. We normally have several drones over the battlefield but each drone has only a limited amount of area that it can see and when you combine those and put them over Baghdad you get very good visibility over the entire city. You get a bank of television monitors in which you can see the various portions of the city all the time and those pictures can be transmitted forward down fairly low to the operating commander so unlike conventional battles in previous wars where the commander simply released the troops and said OK, go in there and do your best, now you've got the commander and his staff actually able to monitor the progress of the troops on the ground, see where the resistance is coming from and coordinate the support that the troops, the forward troops need.
COOPER: You know we all start - we started this discussion with this talk about urban close air support, this being what the U.S. military now says they are going to be providing over Baghdad, at least two planes at all times overhead able to be called in. There was a concern though as I recall several days ago that the Iraqis haven't been turning on their radar on some of their anti-aircraft weaponry in the city of Baghdad because if they turned it on, that would - you know the U.S. planes overhead could hone in on it and destroy it. If that has been the case, if they haven't turned on their radars, if they still have those anti-aircraft positions in place, what's to stop them now from using them against the planes that are circling overhead? I mean do we have dominance of the skies?
CLARK: Well, it's - there's probably nothing to stop a few of the remaining Iraqi systems from turning on their radars Anderson but what I think has been significantly degraded in this integrated nature of the air defense system, what makes the doctrinal air defense system so difficult is that they are integrated so it's a radar here and a missile there and another radar somewhere else and the information's cross correlated and the missiles that you weren't aware of can shoot at you and radars that are out of your range are tracking you but you see as this has been broken down as we continue to target command centers and communication centers.
It's much more difficult for those radars to pose a significant threat. There's always the chance that a radar will come up and a pilot who's low enough could be in the envelope of one of these missiles and could be hit but as we're looking over the area with our unmanned aerial vehicles and our overhead imagery and many other assets, we're likely to pick up those assets, those in the air defense assets before they can shoot at us. They've got to be out in the open after all to fire up. So we've got a very good chance, as the area is restricted of seeing them first.
COOPER: All right. General Clark, good to talk to you as always and you have been looking at a live picture of the USS Constellation. We will continue to come back to that picture every now and then. Not much happening but still I think fascinating to see actually live what is happening right now on the other side of the world. Commanders caution of course the war is far from over yet they may be relieved that many things would happen have not. When we come back, the acts of sabotage military planners thought they'd see and why Iraq's leaders might be holding back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Hello. I'm Fredricka Whitfield in the CNN Newsroom. Here's what's happening at this hour.
U.S. troops are flexing more muscle in the heart of Baghdad. CNN's Walter Rodgers reports army recognizance missions have resumed in the capital city and forces will begin carving the city into security zones. U.S. troops remain under hostile fire from pockets of resistance.
Under the cover of darkness, the British Royal Marines in Basra rushed to flush out members of Saddam's Fedayeen forces and crush pockets of resistance. A number of suspects were captured in house to house raids.
Another TV appearance by Saddam Hussein, this time Iraqi television showed video of Hussein meeting with his two sons, Uday and Qusay, but U.S. officials say there is no indication of where or when that tape was made.
Speaking out in Florida, more than 15,000 gathered in support of U.S. troops and in Massachusetts a small crowd met at the Boston Commons, some carrying banners that said, "wage peace, not war."
Come rain, snow or the gloom of war, the U.S. military mail will be delivered. The U.S. Postal Service chartered two 747 cargo jets to deliver a whopping 750,000 pounds of mail a week to U.S. troops. That's a huge jump from the 21,000 pounds a week delivered last October.
Those are the headlines at this hour. Now back to more of coverage of war in Iraq with Anderson.
COOPER: Fredricka, thanks very much.
There were a slew of predictions made about what would happen in Iraq even before coalition troops set foot in the country but what have any of those early fears and strategies come to pass or have any of those fears and strategies come to pass? Bill Schneider joins me now with a look of what has and has not happened -- Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well as you say, a lot of military experts predicted some pretty terrible things that the Iraqis might do to stop the coalition and most of them haven't happened, at least not yet. Why not?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
Immediately after being attacked, some feared the Iraqi regime might fire missiles at Israel as it did in 1991 to try to draw Israel into the war. It didn't. USA Today cited military experts who said the Iraqi army could slow a U.S. advance by blowing up bridges, using refugees to clog roads and flooding rivers to wash out roads. A dam near Karbala was wired but not demolished and as for the bridges ...
BRIGADIER GENERAL VINCE BROOKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: The 5th Corps forces were able to seize a bridge intact over the Euphrates River. It was in fact rigged for demolition. They were able to remove the demolition, cross the bridge and continue the attack.
SCHNEIDER: In 1991, the Iraqis set the oil fields of Kuwait ablaze. There were a few fires early on but nothing like the conflagrations of 1991.
Everyone expected Iraq to unleash chemical and biological weapons. So far it hasn't happened.
What about Saddam's elite Republican Guard units that were supposed to form a ring of steel around Baghdad? The steel seemed to melt quickly under allied bombardment.
BROOKS: We have penetrated the defensive ring that was set by the Republican Guard forces.
SCHNEIDER: What happened? The Iraqis may not want to use chemical and biological weapons even if they have them and hand the U.S. an immense propaganda victory. It could be there is no command and control structure and Iraqis generals are fearful of taking provocative actions on their own especially because President Bush has issued a serious warning.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: ... that if you launch a weapon of mass destruction, you'll be tried as a war criminal.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
SCHNEIDER: Maybe Saddam Hussein is not in control and those who are, are looking forward to after the war. They have to ask themselves do they want to be put on trial or do they want to have a future in the new Iraq?
COOPER: There was so many of con (ph). They talk about that ring of steel. It turned out to be like steel wool if anything. They talked about using American uniforms but it just didn't happen.
SCHNEIDER: It did not happen and now of course they're talking about unconventional warfare, some things that are not traditional. They said they were going to come out to the airport. That didn't happen either. The one remaining fear is that they're all - that the Iraqis are setting a trap to lure the Americans into Baghdad so that they can get trapped in urban warfare because the Iraqis know urban warfare is something that would be very, very difficult for the United States.
COOPER: Yes.
SCHNEIDER: And we're determined not to do that.
COOPER: All right. Bill Schneider, thanks very much. Good.
When we come back, we're going to go to Ramstein Air Force Base where we have seen so many of the wounded brought back home, brought back for treatment. We'll be right back.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And Anderson, coming up after the break, we'll be broadcasting here from Germany with the latest on the reunion of Jessica Lynch and her family, the teenaged prisoner of war liberated by U.S. Special Forces.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Please don't let anybody leave me here. Those words spoken by Private First Class Jessica Lynch to one of her rescuers during Wednesday's daring commando raid on an Iraqi hospital. She, of course, still recuperating in Germany where her parents are due to arrive shortly and we join our Matthew Chance now for the latest details -- Matthew.
CHANCE: Thank you Anderson.
And this is an amazing story we've all been - we've all been following and one which has really shifted its focus here to Germany and the U.S. military facility where Private Jessica Lynch, the teenaged prisoner of war, so dramatically rescued by U.S. Special Forces last week is still recovering from multiple injuries and preparing to be reunited finally with her parents. We saw those emotional scenes in Charleston, West Virginia earlier today as her parents began their journey to Germany. Let's take a listen into Greg Lynch and those emotional scenes in West Virginia.
GREG LYNCH SR., FATHER OF JESSICA LYNCH: Our hearts are really sad for her other troop members and the other families.
CHANCE: All right. Well, the Air Force plane, they're expected to touch down on here in Germany at the Ramstein Air Base a short distance from here is expected within the next few hours. It's not clear whether we're going to get any access to the family. The U.S. military officials here in Germany are saying that this is a private time for the family at this stage but of course, what we are all waiting for here in Germany is word from Private Lynch herself because remember she's just 19 and the details of her capture and treatment at the hands of Iraqi forces are still unclear to us in the media. What we do know is that other members of her 507th Ordinance Maintenance Company were killed as referred to by Greg Lynch earlier. Others as we remember were made and forced to answer questions on Iraqi television. So I suppose comparatively, compared to the plight of some of her comrades Jessica's escape was an extremely lucky one -- Anderson.
COOPER: Yes. It certainly was. Matthew, any sense what her condition is at this time?
CHANCE: No real confirmation on that but we've been told by U.S. military officials that she's making a sound recovery. We're told that the initial reports that she had been shot and had been stabbed were incorrect. We do understand that she had quite serious injuries to her legs and to her arms, a number of broken bones but clearly she's believed to be in a stable enough condition for her parents to be flown over and for them to meet up finally.
COOPER: And is there any word on how often they've actually spoke thus far?
CHANCE: Well, we certainly know that there have been regular telephone calls. Undoubtedly those telephone calls have been - have been daily lasting for approximately 15 minutes on each occasion but as I say, this will be the first time that since this ordeal began Jessica will finally be able to meet up in person with her family members.
COOPER: And is there any sort of press conference scheduled or any kind of pubic announcements?
CHANCE: Not at this stage. What they're saying is at least in these first hours maybe even in these first days when the family are reunited with Jessica, this will be seen very much as a private time for the family. The family will be staying on the Ramstein base itself, the U.S. military facility in this part of Germany. They won't be giving any press conferences that are scheduled yet until perhaps early next week when we may see some word both in the parents and possibly from Jessica herself.
COOPER: All right. Matthew Chance at Ramstein Regional Medical Center in Germany, thanks very much. I should also point out that Jessica Lynch's dog tags were found by Marines Saturday in the home of a suspected Baath Party representative.
CNN's Jason Bellini actually got one of them, showed it to the camera, quite dramatic images. Those dog tags eventually to be returned to Jessica Lynch we are told.
Moving on, obviously opinions on the war can vary from city to city. When we come back we'll be joined by three journalists to get a feel for what is being said and printed in different communities throughout the country.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Some of the most compelling images and sights and sounds have been brought to us by Martin Savidge over the last 18 days or so. He is with Marines and we are told is on the move and he joins us now.
We've just lost Martin Savidge. That's one of the things at this hour so many of our correspondents call in. We've got Martin back.
Martin, what's the latest where you are?
MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: Well Anderson, we're just expecting that the column is going to begin moving again. We have been stationary. We're back in the forward element of the 1st Battalion 7th Marines. They have been (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for us for about 24 hours now. We were caught back because of fighting that was taking place. We understand that there has been a significant amount of fighting that the 1st Battalion 7th Marines were involved in. They were going on an objective that (UNINTELLIGIBLE) I'm just going to point out we're going to start moving so you'd better get yourself in the vehicle. We're going to have the camera move as we attempt to remain with the convoy. We have had indications of fighting as we've begun to move up and rejoin the main body of the convoy coming into areas where you see buildings that have burned out. You see also indications where there may have been these sort of oil trenches that have been set on fire. We can see dark clues of smoke rising in the distance.
So a very unusual site about 200 yards down the road, the first time we had ever seen this, a destroyed American M1-A1 Abrams tank sitting in the middle of the road just totally burned out and a blackened hulk of what it used to be and that's one of the reasons that we know that there had been fighting. We had been told that the 5th Marines who are ahead of us who had gone through this area a couple of days ago, actually about 48 hours ago and had run into resistance including rocket propelled grenades and heavy small arms fire and that as a result of that a number of other tanks had been hit. We heard about three and that they had suffered casualties. There was no way to ascertain that as we went by this vehicle if any Americans had been wounded, killed. We just had seen the tank and it was - it was just an unusual site. We had not seen the destruction of an Abrams tank before and we continue to push in. You can see now that as we stop and this is traditional, when the convoy comes to a rest they punch out security here and the Marines will simply guard and watch over.
And now we're being told we may be moving forward once more. This is short of the slow pattern that a convoy makes especially when going through an area where there has been combat and in the tricky procedure of linking up with a forward element and we're sort of rolling right along with it but we are in the southeastern portion entering towards the extreme southeastern part of the Baghdad area. Keep in mind that you have the Army that was pushing in on Baghdad from the west and for the Marines the eastern sector of Baghdad has been their job so they're pushing up a different way from a different direction and thereby whatever they run into may be different as far as opposition and elements that they fight from what the Army has been facing -- Anderson.
COOPER: Martin, I see that one of the Marines going as you said doing security as this convoy sort of moves slowly. Have there been any pot shots taken, any small arms fire directed to the group you're with?
SAVIDGE: Well, as we said, a lead element ran obviously into - well they didn't run into trouble. They were looking for trouble. That's their whole purpose. The 5th Marines had a problem. The 5th Marines don't stop. They engage and then push on and then leave it up to elements that follow in their rear to take on whatever pockets of resistance are found and that's what yesterday the 1st Battalion 7th Marines were involved in. We understand they were going from bunker to bunker searching to find any troops. If these were remnants of the Republican Guard or just regular Iraqi forces we don't know. It was described at that time to us from what we heard as skirmishing. Now throughout the day there had been artillery barrages. These were all outgoing rounds stemming from the U.S. Marines in the direction of where this fighting was taking place. Last night as we bed down for just a couple of hours to sleep we were loudly awakened by heavy artillery going off and it was very close to our position so you not only heard the boom but you certainly felt the concussive blasts as they were firing right over our heads and that went on we think for about an hour or so and then has quieted down. So it has not gone completely silent here and it is not without some opposition as the Marines move in but again it is nothing that they're not capable of handling they tell us.
Anderson ...
COOPER: Martin, we're also joined by Retired General Wesley Clark as we often are on News Night.
General Clark and feel free for you General Clark to ask Martin any questions you have but General Clark, I'm sort of struck by these images. You know we sort of became used to seeing those fast moving images through the Iraqi desert, Walter Rodgers charging with the 7th Calvary. The images we're seeing now through Martin Savidge far more methodical slow but nonetheless just as necessary.
CLARK: Well, that's exactly right. The Marines have had a much different fight than the Army did. The Army's avenue of approach from the beginning was designed to avoid populated areas whereas the Marines were given the mission of moving through central Iraq and they had a tough fight there in Nasiriya. They had tough fights moving up northeast from Nasiriya and this one looks like it was a tough fight. It still may be tough moving into Baghdad.
The other thing that of course is when you're seeing this column move, they're at the rear. The roads are congested. They're moving by stages. They're moving carefully and they've got their security out. So it's a much different battlefield here because each of these houses and so forth that are around there are possible enemy forces inside those houses. To walk into those houses is to ask for a fire fight and so these Marines that are out here pulling security are ready but they're trying to stay with the convoy and be ready in case they're attacked but they're not looking to clear the way.
COOPER: General Clark, do you have any questions for Martin?
CLARK: I do. The M1-A1 tanks that were hit, I mean that's obviously something that's going to be of huge interest. That's a very tough tank. It's very well protected, but it does have areas on it that may be vulnerable but are we sure it was rocket propelled grenades because there are some heavier weapons that could have hit these tanks that would have had a better chance of penetrating? Just out of curiosity as someone who's spent a lot time around M1-A1 tanks, I wondered, how do we know it's RPGs?
COOPER: Martin? SAVIDGE: We don't. That's clear. At this particular point we are not sure actually what may have taken that tank out. It is also possible that maybe that tank was just damaged to a point that it could not be moved and so to make sure that it was not used in any way by opposition forces that it was destroyed by the Marines themselves. We don't know particularly. We had only heard that there were three tanks damaged. Now some of the tanks had been damaged. Usually an RPG as you point out will not take out an Abrams tank. At best if you were lucky with a shot, you might knock the tread off which is something that can be easily repaired out in the field and in some cases we have seen treads just laying at the side of the road where they had made those repairs. So at this point having driven by it, it was just the fact seeing the destruction to it. Whether it was taken out by something heavier or whether it was destroyed by the Marines simply because they couldn't move it forward is unclear. When we link up with the main body we hope to get some answers to that.
CLARK: And Anderson ...
SAVIDGE: As I understand, we're getting ready to move again.
CLARK: Anderson, we might want to just say to the viewers that these tanks have been designed to really provide maximum protection for the crews so in some cases the tanks have parts that are called blow out panels so let's say if the ammunition blows up, it blows out a panel on the outside of the tank but the crew inside is protected and so sometimes the damage to the tank can look far worse than you know it is in terms of the crew.
COOPER: Well, on that M1-A1 Abrams, protection not just against shells and the like but against nuclear, biological, chemical as well.
CLARK: That's exactly right. We put a lot of effort into the design of this tank to protect people and you can be sure that our - we'll do post battle damage assessments on everything that was hit and we'll be looking for any ways to further enhance the material. It's just one of the functions of Armies and Marine Corps. That's what we do.
COOPER: All right. Martin, it looks like you're on the move. We're probably going to lose you soon. Just a final word, I'm not going to ask you where you're going but what is the morale like among the Marines you're with?
SAVIDGE: Well, the morale still really is extremely high. I mean obviously the closer they get to Baghdad they feel the closer that they are eventually getting to home. One of the things that keeps us moving slowly here is as you can see this is sort of an industrial area. I don't know if you'd call that industrial park but there are a lot of compounds. There are a lot of what appear to be businesses on the side of the road that are walled in and in the war like circumstances we find ourselves each one of these can be potentially a hiding place or potentially an ambush so we move slowly forward. The armored personnel carriers know about.
They're the heavier fighting force with Marines inside as well as heavy armaments on the outside and they sort of probe into these areas before the column can move forward. It's, as you pointed, it's slow. It's methodical job. It's also a very necessary one. You don't want to pass one of these positions where perhaps there could be tanks or other heavy weaponry that is shielded or hidden and then have it come out and strike you from the rear.
COOPER: Martin Savidge, it is slow. It is methodical but you are moving. You're moving forward and that is a good thing inevitably. Martin Savidge, we'll check in with you as soon as we can.
General Clark, thank you.
We'll be back just after a short break taking a pulse of the nation.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Welcome back. Every night we check the pulse of America and hear what people are saying in different parts of the country. Joining me tonight from New York, Walter Fields, the editor of Northstarnetwork.com from Portland, Oregon, Mark Zusman, editor of the newspaper, "Williamette Week," and joining us in L.A. Tammy Bruce a columnist for Newsmax.com. Let's start with Tammy.
Tammy, what are you hearing from your readers on Newsmax.com? What's their take on things so far?
TAMMY BRUCE, COLUMNIST, NEWSMAX.COM: Well first, there was a lot of concern about the anti-war protests about the comfort it potentially was giving to the enemy putting our young men and women further at risk but more interestingly it's like a mobilization emotionally that happened after September 11. It is so clear especially with embedded reporters like your Martin Savidge and Christiane Amanpour that there is good and evil, right and wrong involved here and America is obviously involved in something that's important and right and the support for the war has increased even with the casualties and Americans once again despite the howling from the far left in this country are realizing and coming together gosh, you know this is something we must be doing. Iraqis do need us. The leadership there is barbaric and they're seeing the Iraqi people really as an example in the lawyer who saved Private Lynch, the Iraqi lawyer and his family are the people that we're saving. So there is a much clearer view of why we're doing this and the importance of doing it.
COOPER: Walter Fields is the editor of Northstarnetwork.com, an African American public affairs web site.
Is it clear to your - to your readers, to the people that go to your Web site what this is all about?
WALTER FIELDS, EDITOR, NORTHSTARNETWORK.COM: Not at all. I mean our readers aren't looking at this as Operation Iraqi Freedom. They're viewing it more as a sequel to the "Thief of Baghdad," and I think it reflects a widespread opposition among most black Americans to this war and one of the real concerns is, you know, our view that much of the coverage has been extremely sanitized in terms of the real impact of this war particularly on civilians in Iraq. I think certainly the fact that you don't see any black journalists covering this war for the most part. You don't see any black journalists embedded with the troops. I think the fact that you don't see much coverage or much you know reaction from black soldiers in the field. There's widespread skepticism among the African American community about the true intent of the government in this war and I think reflects the fact that we don't believe that this country can liberate another country when it hasn't provided those freedoms to many of us here in the United States.
COOPER: Mark, I believe you've actually in your community suffered some losses during this war. How tolerant is the community for the price they have so far paid?
MARK ZUSMAN, EDITOR, "WILLIAMETTE WEEK": Well Anderson, you're correct. We - Oregon has lost four men and women which is really out of proportion to our population and it's kind of interesting because Oregon is not a state with either a large defense industry or you know we don't have any Camp Lejeunes nearby. We don't have sort of the institutional support that would suggest that we would be pro-war but we certainly have more than our share of men and women serving over there.
I haven't seen any good polls in Portland to reflect the opinions of people here and my guess is it's probably pretty close to the national sentiment but I will tell you that in Portland there has been a very vocal minority that has been protesting the war since the day the bombs dropped. Virtually every day or night there have been rallies of one sort or another in Portland a couple of which have been quite sizable and I do think that there is a pretty substantial at least minority of people in this city who are questioning at least the motives of the war and I guess moreover, questioning whether or not we're going to be able to win the peace as well.
COOPER: Tammy, Walter Fields was saying that some 70 percent or so of his readers do not support the war and he brought up a lot of points about his readership primarily African American, their lack of support for this war. Are you seeing that among your readership or ...
BRUCE: Not at all, not at all and the polls don't show that either. We're not only not seeing a stabilization of the numbers. Support for the war across all Americans is increasing exponentially.
(CROSSTALK)
FIELDS: That's not true. That's not true not among African Americans. African Americans -- no. Gallup -- every poll that's indicated has shown that black Americans are extremely opposed to this war.
(CROSSTALK)
BRUCE: And what I do want to say is that Americans also are tired of the moral relativism and the cynicism and the refusal of some people to want to help and free Iraqi people who only have the "coalition of the willing" to depend on to be so selfish and so narcissistic to say that we shouldn't be there or do this is really beyond the pale (ph)...
FIELDS: It is not a point of being selfish.
(CROSSTALK)
FIELDS: First of all, African Americans are probably the most loyal segment of the American society...
BRUCE: It's a selfish position to take to be against this war.
FIELDS: My great-great-grandfather fought in the Civil War. My father and his an aunt were World War II veterans and...
(CROSSTALK)
FIELDS: You can't find a more loyal segment of American society than black Americans. It's not selfish.
BRUCE: Yes it is.
FIELDS: There's no higher responsibility for a U.S. citizen than to stand against it own government when we believe that government is wrong, and it's taking positions that are opposite to the (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
BRUCE: It is selfish when you are saying you are not seeing the right skin color on the people who are reporting this war.
FIELDS: Excuse me?
BRUCE: It is selfish and narcissistic.
FIELDS: No, we're not seeing the right skin color. I don't see black journalists reporting this war...
BRUCE: That is absurd.
FIELDS: It is absurd?
BRUCE: And that's what this is about for you? That is what this is about for you?
FIELDS: Name black journalists that are reporting of this war. Excuse me?
BRUCE: People are dying, and this is what this is about for you. That's selfish.
(CROSSTALK)
FIELDS: What this is about is whether or not this is a legitimate exercise of authority by the United States government so it's not a point of selfishness. It's a point of looking at the reality of this country, which you can't speak from as a white female for the viewpoints of African Americans.
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: Tammy, Walter, Mark. I am sorry. We are going to have to leave it there. We are completely out of time. Appreciate you joining us for this -- this pulse of the nation. Thanks very much.
FIELDS: Thank you.
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