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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

War in Iraq: U.S. Forces Slowly Drawing Noose Tighter Around Baghdad

Aired April 06, 2003 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You are looking again at a live picture of Baghdad, 7:02 a.m. Moments ago, we heard the sound of gunshots in the distance, echoing across the city. We will continue to monitor the picture and bring you the latest as it happens.
We're going to check in with what is going on in northern Iraq. Coalition air strikes have been helping clear the way for Kurdish troops and U.S. Special Forces. But earlier today, they hit the wrong target. We'll have more on that in a moment.

Right away, though, we want to go up to Northern Iraq to our own Thomas Nybo, who is with the 173rd Airborne Brigade.

Thomas - what's the latest where you are?

THOMAS NYBO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I just returned from headquarters. Essentially, daybreak has arrived, and the initial verdict is that last night's artillery raid was successful.

Now, to recap exactly, this is what happened. Some Special Forces, operating along the green line, had basically found some Iraqi soldiers, hundreds of them, as many as 500 in one region. And so what happened was they called in coalition air strikes. But these Iraqi soldiers had access to underground escape tunnels. They'd see the planes coming; they'd flee.

So what happened was they brought in the 173rd, the Paratroopers that jumped into Iraq about a week-and-a-half ago, and they wanted to catch these guys by surprise. So they hooked up a couple of Howitzer Cannons to Humvees. They drove within about nine miles of the green line, and they just opened fire.

For one hour, they fired about 50 105 millimeter shells just continually on these Iraqi soldiers. And the initial word is that the success was - that the attack was successful.

Now, in the next 12 to 14 hours, they should get visual confirmation. The only way they have of knowing whether that was successful is a lone Special Forces Operative using night vision goggles, who was there throughout the night.

And essentially what happened was the 173rd would fire one round. He would tell them where it landed. They'd make the necessary adjustments, and then they essentially unloaded all of their ammunition. In a few hours, they'll find out how successful they were. COOPER: Thomas, we're also joined by Retired General Wesley Clark, who's probably going to be asking you some questions.

And, General Clark, that's basically how it works. With an artillery battery, you have to have some sort of forward observation post, is that right?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, (RET.), FMR. NATO SUPREME ALLIED CMDR., CNN MILITARY ANALYST: You do if you're going to put accurate fires on target. You could fire at a grid, but this is the right way to do it so you've got someone calling the adjustment of the rounds.

COOPER: If you want to ask Thomas Nybo anything, feel free.

CLARK: Well, Thomas, I would like to ask you - we heard maybe 10 days ago, when the 173rd had jumped in, they secured the airfield, the idea was that there'd be some heavier equipment brought in. If you can tell us, what's going on up there and what is the status of the buildup of forces around that airfield?

NYBO: The buildup of forces has been strong. Now, for reasons of operation security, I'm not allowed to talk about the status of the Abrams Tanks or the Bradley Fighting Vehicles. But I can say that that was definitely part of the plan, to bring in the big guns.

Now, as far as unloading and actually putting these guns into action, the closest we've come is to Howitzers that were used tonight. They essentially brought out two of those and used them for one hour on these Iraqi soldiers. That's where we're at now.

CLARK: All right. Well, there were hopes that this would provide a sort of armored nucleus around which the Peshmerga and the Special Forces and others could work. And I know you can't discuss that now, but it is reassuring to see that the 173rd has gotten into the action here and is able to assist in the work against the Iraqis in the northern area.

COOPER: Now, Thomas, you were saying that this is the first time the 173rd have been using this sort of Howitzer in combat in quite a long time. Is that right?

NYBO: It was almost like a locker room situation. The commander down here essentially spoke to the troops and gave them a motivational speech and said, basically, this is the first time in more than three decades that the 173rd has fired shells on an enemy of the United States. They were basically decommissioned after Vietnam, brought back into action a couple of years ago. And this is the first time they've actually been able to use those weapons, yes.

COOPER: Thomas, how - we were looking at some of those pictures that we just got in a short time ago, those night vision pictures of Howitzers firing their shells. How smooth an operation is it, the loading, the reloading? If you - I'm not sure if you witnessed it yourself. But if you did, describe it.

NYBO: It is unbelievably efficient. These guys love the darkness. In fact, we were in a convoy of about 12 or 13 Humvees, driving in complete darkness. Every single driver, every single passenger, every military - every soldier, essentially, had on night vision goggles.

It was so dark. You could hear the orders being barked out. My camera could not pick up the Howitzers. I actually had to borrow a set of these night vision goggles and hold them in front of the camera lens just to be able to get the grainy images that I sent back to Atlanta.

COOPER: Thomas and General Clark, just so you know, we've got - been soliciting some e-mails from viewers who wanted to ask questions of our embedded correspondents.

So, Thomas, this is actually a question from a Greg in Ironton, Minnesota. He writes, "Do the men on the tanks, trucks ever get to rest? Do they take turns watching out for one another while the other group rests?"

NYBO: They stick to a pretty tight schedule. I mean it's a little different with the 173rd here. I mean these guys, they sit there in a microcosm. The essentially - they're given a mission; they go out and do it. It's not like they're charging into Baghdad like some of these other troops.

But they've got a schedule like clockwork right here.

COOPER: Do - you know, we heard from some members of the 173rd over the last couple days. In sort of the first 24, 48 hours after they arrived, they were setting up that air base, Harir Air Base. Is there a sense of anticipation that they want to get in on what is going on? I mean I imagine as a soldier, to some degree, if you're going to be in the field, you want to be where stuff is going on.

NYBO: Absolutely true. A lot of these guys, 18, 19, 20 years old - you know, the way that it was explained to me, two-thirds of this brigade are what they call "trigger pullers." I mean these guys, they say this is what they're trained to do. You know, just give them the chance. And tonight, they were given a limited opportunity to do that.

But, you know, by and large, the bulk of the troops, they're itching for some action.

COOPER: We have another question, actually, from Karol in Baltimore, Maryland, at 65955 for the graphic people. Karol in Baltimore, Maryland wrote in, "what is the spiritual state morale of the U.S. troops fighting daily?" - Thomas.

NYBO: It's interesting. I mean, morale has been strong. And as far as spirituality, you know, it was Sunday here, and they essentially held a mass. You know, they took time out from their military duties. They came together in spirit. They feel that they're on the same page.

They're very inquisitive. They want to know - they keep pumping me for information about what the sentiment is back home. What are Americans doing? Of course, I'm out here with them, so I'm not sure. I don't have my hand on the pulse of America. But they want to know what America thinks about what they're doing here in northern Iraq.

COOPER: All right - Thomas Nybo with the 173rd Airborne Brigade. Thanks. We'll check in with you in a little bit. Some historic - at least for the 173rd Airborne Brigade. Historic, the first time, according to Thomas - he heard their commander tell them - that they have fired upon enemy positions in about three decades or so, I believe he said. So an interesting development there for the 173rd Airborne in northern Iraq.

We're going to come back to northern Iraq in a moment. I want to just show you some pictures and some sounds from Baghdad just a few moments ago. Gunfire - gunfire heard in Baghdad this morning.

General Clark, I don't know if you're still there, but if you are, as you listen to that, can you identify that at all? I mean it doesn't initially sound like gunfire to me. It sounds just sort of more like some sort of rolling thunder like munitions.

CLARK: It's really tough to identify it from here, Anderson. It's probably a combination of artillery fire and even, perhaps, bombing.

COOPER: As we continue to look at this picture, General Clark, talk a little bit about this change that has been announced over the last 24, 36 hours or so, close urban air support, these coalition aircraft - mainly U.S. aircraft - going to be circling over Baghdad, providing close urban combat support.

CLARK: Right, Anderson. The idea is that these aircraft would be responsive to the troops on the ground.

In other words, rather than going after pre-designated targets taking off from their aircraft carrier or base in Kuwait and flying up and striking and then returning, they would go up, they word orbit the city. As Jamie McIntyre said, they would be stacked up in several different altitude layers.

And then they've got a certain amount of time on target. They've got certain weapons mixed. And they wait for the troops on the ground to call to the aircraft to come and strike a designated target.

The troops call it. They may designate it with a laser. They may get it by a grid coordinate. And then the aircraft strikes. And then there are other aircraft immediately available to follow up.

COOPER: And as we continue to listen to these rumbling sounds, not sure if it's air - gunfire, as we had been told a little while ago, or some sort of munitions being dropped.

I was also interested to read recently about some of the kinds of munitions that they are going to be dropping on Baghdad now that they are providing this kind of close air support. Very concerned about civilian casualties, so CENTCOM saying that they might even be dropping munitions that do not have explosive warheads. Explain that.

CLARK: That's right because just the kinetic energy of a large 500-pound object falling from 20,000 feet creates quite a shock. It will go through several floors of a building, may take down a building. And that might be all that you need to do in a particular circumstance.

You don't want to endanger people in the other buildings. You're not trying to break windows a half mile around and cut people with flying glass. That's what you're trying to prevent.

And so, in that sense, it makes perfect - it's a perfectly good idea to use a solid warhead that's non-explosive.

COOPER: All right - General Clark. Thanks. We'll talk to you again very shortly.

We want to go back now to northern Iraq. There has been so much happening there over the last 12 or 20 hours or so. In northern Iraq, coalition air strikes have been helping to clear the way for Kurdish troops, as well as U.S. Special Forces. But earlier today, they hit the wrong target.

Our Jane Arraf reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Near this ridge in northern Iraq, the sound, the fury and the chaos of war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hanging!

ARRAF: That mortar didn't go off, but just a few hundred meters away, one air strike that shouldn't have did.

A few hours earlier, a U.S. bomb dropped on a convoy of friendly forces, Kurdish soldiers backing U.S. troops. At least 18 people were killed and 45 wounded. Among them, a senior Kurdish military commander, the brother of the head of the regional Kurdish government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were way down in the valley when that happened. We turned around and we saw the plume of smoke way behind us. And all we did - we heard that some friendlies may have been hit, and we just sent our medics back up the top of the hill to render what aid they could for what happened.

ARRAF: A Kurdish military commander visiting the scene put on a brave front, saying the accident wouldn't affect moral or relations with the Americans, what the Kurds see as a liberation force.

The convoy had been heading toward this troop of Special Forces holding the front line.

(on camera): These soldiers on the ridge are known as the Forward Air Control Post. It's kind of like an air traffic control tower, except they're guiding in F-14s, telling them where to target and drop 2,000-pound bombs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger, laser code 1711 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) 10 seconds and laser on (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ARRAF (voice-over): That dot in the sky quickly turns into an F- 14. It howls over the ridge before dropping its laser guided bomb on targets supplied by the U.S. spotters on the ground. The targets: Iraqi tanks which advance toward the Americans before they could call in air cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We seen the tanks coming out of the haze. We pulled back to the ridge line here. We broke out our Javelin Missiles. We fired six missiles and took four tanks with the six missile shots.

So you could see - most of them are already done burning already. We felt a little bit more pressure. We took some artillery. We see them far out, nothing really close. And then we backed up to here.

ARRAF: After a day on this ridge, tempers start to fray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't even shoot that last (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You're wasting it. Look, it's three clicks up.

ARRAF: While Kurdish soldiers down the road were still absorbing the horror of the friendly fire from their allies, U.S. soldiers got on with holding the ridge.

Jane Arraf, CNN, near Dibigan (ph) in northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: What you are looking at is a live picture being broadcast on the Lebanese Broadcasting Channel. They are describing it as a drone flying over the city of Baghdad. We simply do not know. We have not confirmed what it is.

We want to bring in Retired General Wesley Clark.

General Clark, I assume you can see the picture. What are your thoughts?

CLARK: Well, it could very well be a drone. We probably have several of them in the air around Baghdad or maybe even over Baghdad.

These are aircraft that are control by a radio from a remote location. They normally carry cameras, one or more that's either electro-optical or whatever they're hooked up with, a TV link so the people back in the control centers can actually see what's coming.

This is one of the technology advantages that U.S. forces will have in this urban fight that no forces have ever had before.

COOPER: Remarkable, not just to see it flying over the city of Baghdad live on television, also remarkable for what we are not seeing, which is anti-aircraft fire trying to hit it.

CLARK: That's exactly right. And this shows you that this is an aircraft that is visible. If there were coordinate air defenses in Baghdad, someone would probably be engaging it, and they're not.

COOPER: Psychologically, what does this - what message does this send to the residents of Baghdad?

CLARK: That's the next point, Anderson. This is clearly a warning to the people in Baghdad that their air defense system is not working.

To all of the military people, the Fedayeen and others - and we don't know if this aircraft is audible on the ground. It depends on the level of noise. Normally, it has to be pretty quiet before you can hear them.

But if it is audible and they look up and they see this, then they must realize that they really have no protection from the skies at all.

COOPER: And some of these, the Predator, among others, can carry a missile, which is something we learned when there was the incident, I believe it was in Yemen, where an unmanned drone was used to actually fire a missile on a moving vehicle.

CLARK: That's exactly right. They can. In downtown Baghdad, we probably also have that capability. We would want, in this case - because of the presence of civilians, we'd want to know exactly what we're shooting a missile at. In other words, if it's shooting a car, you want somebody to tell you who's in that car.

But if it's shooting at a tank, as long as you can identify it as an enemy tank, it's fair game. And they're very well may be armed unmanned aerial vehicles in use here.

COOPER: And I assume, if these drones become a more regular sight, I don't think we're going to see many more street walk-alongs of Saddam Hussein and/or a double - whatever the case was - or any more street press conferences by the Iraqi information minister. This is the kind of thing that would spot that - or could be used to spot movements on the ground very quickly.

CLARK: That's exactly right. And these aircraft have exceptional optics. They can look out of a slant range, so they don't have to be directly overhead. And it's really impossible for people on the ground to figure out what the aircraft is observing.

So there's no indication. It's up there. It could be looking at them.

COOPER: And this is really - I mean not just this particular aircraft, if it, in fact, is one of the unmanned drones that we've heard so much about - and for our viewers who are just joining us, this is a shot on the right hand side - the left hand side of the screen, of course, is a shot of Baghdad. The right hand side of the screen is a shot from Lebanese Broadcasting of what they described as an unmanned drone or a drone flying over the city of Baghdad. We simply have not been able to independently verify what it is. But it is certainly becoming clearer and clearer as it approaches the camera position.

What seems remarkable, though - and General Clark, if you could talk about this a little bit - is the advancement in real-time battlefield intelligence that the U.S. military and coalition forces are able to get now versus the first Gulf War.

CLARK: Well, that's right, Anderson, because in the first Gulf War, we had just started with the use of the unmanned aerial vehicles. And that was the first war we could - we call it the first war in the information age.

We realized we needed huge - at that time huge - pipelines of data for logistics reasons. And we were sending photographs back and forth. And that's very bandwidth intensive.

But we didn't have the real-time video coverage. We started with the real-time video coverage in the Kosovo campaign. And we've enriched it here. It uses very, very large pipes, but it's able to be distributed down from high level headquarters, down very close to the battlefield so the commanders can actually radio the people on the ground who are ahead moving and warn them, tell them what they see. In some cases, they can even send a still picture forward.

COOPER: And - I mean, how intricate is this? Does this information go from that drone - if, in fact, that was a drone - to CENTCOM in Doha, Qatar and then back? And now we're looking at a shot from Al Jazeera, again, of this drone, which continues, apparently, to go unimpeded, unattacked over the city of Baghdad.

How extensive, though, General Clark, is this network/

CLARK: Well, it's quite extensive, Anderson, and you can't know, from looking at that drone, exactly where the picture might be going. That picture could be seen in the Pentagon. It could be seen in the U.S./European Command Headquarters. It could be seen at MacDill Air Force Base. It could be seen, perhaps, in a brigade headquarters that's at the airfield, right there outside Baghdad, and maybe even further to the front.

COOPER: All right, General Clark, thanks very much. And just a reminder, what is significant, of course, of that picture, not just the picture, what you're seeing, but that you're not seeing anti- aircraft fire trying to target that drone. Read into that what you will. General Clark - thanks. We'll check in with you shortly.

We have an update now on the war's casualty count. Eighty U.S. service members have been killed. That includes 66 in hostile actions, 14 non-hostile deaths.

Thirty British troops killed in the war, at least nine killed in combat, 19 in non-hostile accidents. Two of the 30 deaths of the British are still undetermined.

Iraqi officials report 420 civilians have been killed in the war. The Iraqi government says about 4,000 civilians have been injured. And U.S. Central Command reports coalition forces hold 6,000 Iraqi POWs.

Well, it's been said Iraqis are thirsty for freedom second and water first. Coming up, rebuilding Iraq and the politics of it all. CNN Analyst Ken Pollack joins us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage. There's a lot to talk about this morning, late this evening, I should say.

Secretary of State Colin Powell began talks with NATO members about post-war Iraq last week. He said they U.N. would play a role but not a larger role than coalition nations during an interim period. Plans for post-war Iraq are still in flux, to say the least, with many scenarios yet to be tested.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, U.S. DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: We can't say that anyone should take a leading role at the - by definition, if you're going to have a government or even a transitional authority that represents the legitimate views of the Iraqi people, it's Iraqi people that have to decide.

But what we want to make sure is that all Iraqis are free to participate in building a future government of their country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, you might be wondering why we're talking about this now, with the battle for Baghdad still going on. Well, tomorrow, President Bush flies to Belfast to meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

On the agenda, a discussion of post-war Iraq, who will do the rebuilding and how will the Iraqi people be involved. There are a lot of issues involved, a lot to discuss.

We've invited our analyst, Ken Pollack, to join the discussion.

Ken, thanks for being with us. First of all, I just want to start. You saw those pictures of that - what appeared to be a drone circling over Baghdad. I know it's not what we planned to talk about, but your thoughts on seeing that and not seeing anti-aircraft fire targeting it.

KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Yes, you know, Anderson, it's a really good question because it is part of the mystery of what's going on. Iraqi resistance has been rather bizarre over the course of this entire campaign. I think that you can honestly say that we have not exactly seen what we expected to out of the Iraqis. I'll throw in another one there. Why on earth were the defenses of Baghdad not better prepared by the time that U.S. forces got up in that area?

It does seem that the Iraqis were expecting to hold us longer at that Republican Guard line that they established from Karbala to Kut. But still, you should have been building defenses around Baghdad as the fall-back position. They weren't doing anything like it.

It suggests - let me put it this way. It is consistent with what U.S. Intelligence analysts have been saying all along, you might see, if Saddam Hussein were no longer in charge, if he were dead or incapacitated.

This might be some of the best evidence that we have that maybe Saddam Hussein was actually killed or incapacitated in that early attack and, as a result, his minions aren't able to coordinate their actions as well as they might have.

COOPER: I guess the other scenario would be one that General Peter Pace, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, mentioned on Sunday, that maybe Saddam Hussein is simply just a lousy general.

POLLACK: Well, look, there's no question that Saddam Hussein is a lousy general. But what we've seen of Saddam in the past is that his fall-back position, his default position in war is always fight as hard as you possibly can.

He doesn't fight smart, but he always just tells his forces, throw up everything you can, just shoot, just fire, just fight as much as you can. It seems really incongruous for Saddam Hussein to be in charge, to have all of these forces running around Baghdad. And remember, we know, from these various Army incursions into Baghdad, that there are still a lot of guys in Baghdad with guns, trying to resist the U.S. push.

COOPER: All right, let's talk about post-Saddam Hussein/Iraq, because it does seem inevitable, certainly given the facts on the ground as we know them.

There's - I don't even know where to begin, really. What do you think this thing is going to look like six months from now? What is Baghdad, what is Iraq going to look like?

POLLACK: Well, the honest answer is, Anderson, we just don't know because, truth to tell, the Bush administration does not seem to have made up its mind.

They've got some basic ideas about what they want post-war Iraq to look like, but there are still, as best we can tell, some very fierce fights raging on key issues. Key issues like what kind of a role is the external Iraqi opposition going to play in this new government, and what kind of a role is the United Nations going to play? As you know, Prime Minister Blair and a lot of the other European countries would like to see the U.N. at least have some kind of umbrella control over the reconstruction, even if the U.S. is doing the lion's share of the work behind the scenes. There are people in the Bush administration who are pushing back hard with that.

With regard to the Iraqi opposition, there are some in the Bush administration who think that the Iraqi opposition ought to be playing a leading role, maybe even running the entire transitional authority. Other people in the Bush administration pushing back hard, saying we don't want to prejudice things. The Iraqi opposition can play some role, but the U.S. should not be putting them into a position of power because they'll look like nothing but puppets.

COOPER: How badly do you want to be a fly on the wall during this hastily arranged summit over the next two days? Because it's got to just be fascinating because, I mean, from my limited understanding of all of this, Tony Blair was the one sort of pushing the U.S. to go through the U.N.

They kind of did that. It didn't really go, to say the least, the way they had wanted it to go. Now, Tony Blair, it would seem, is going to be pushing a larger U.N. role in a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq than President George Bush is going to want. It's just going to be an amazing discussion.

POLLACK: Yes, you're absolutely right, Anderson. You put your finger on exactly the key issue out there, which is - unfortunately, Prime Minister Blair and also Secretary of State Powell, who also reportedly wants a strong U.N. role in this - they're in a very weak position because of how things played out over the last six months.

Now, on the one hand, you can say, look, this shouldn't have anything - one shouldn't have anything to do with the other. Post-war Iraq is a very different situation from the issue of the run-up to war, the inspections, et cetera.

But the simple fact of the matter is that many in the Bush administration have a very bad taste in their mouth as a result of how the French, the Germans, the Russians, others in the U.N. handled the run-up to war.

COOPER: And, of course, the other big question, which I'd love to talk about - we're out of time now, maybe another time - is what role is France going to play in all of this. You know, are they going to be allowed to do anything by the U.S.? It will be very interesting to see.

Ken, it's always good to talk to you. I think you're going to stick around maybe a little bit, maybe talk more about this ground war. We'll check in with you in a little while.

POLLACK: Sounds good.

COOPER: We're going to have the headlines when we come back and a new take on what Americans think of the war and the progress so far. Our Bill Schneider is along to run the numbers on that when our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

COOPER: I want to show you this live picture that we have been looking at of a -- what appears to be some sort of a drone. I'm not sure if this is a live picture anymore. This is actually a tape. The live picture was -- occurred just a few months ago. It -- from Lebanese broadcasting.

It appears to be some sort of a drone -- Lebanese broadcasting is describing it at least as a drone flying over the City of Baghdad, and, as we have remarked in the last couple of minutes, remarkable for what we are seeing, which is this drone just flying along, and what we are not seeing, anti-aircraft fire trying to pin it down.

We're joined now by General Wesley Clark, as well as Ken Pollack, a CNN analyst, to just talk about this a little bit.

General Clark, again, just for those who are just joining us, this kind of drone, if that is, in fact, what it -- what else could it be, frankly?

CLARK: Well, it is a drone. It's -- as we got a better look at it a few minutes ago, you could see what type it is. It looks like one of the drones that the U.S. forces use.

COOPER: Could be armed. Could be not armed.

CLARK: It's probably not armed. It's probably carrying a couple different cameras.

COOPER: And, Ken, I know you were an Iraq analyst for a long time. Is this the kind of information that you would -- I mean the results of the kind of stuff this drone would pick up that you would analyze. How...

POLLACK: Well...

COOPER: How would this information be used by others, other than those on the battlefield?

POLLACK: Well, actually, there's -- the first cut at this information will probably go -- as General Clark was suggesting, would go immediately go to more tactical users, the folks over at Baghdad International Airport, others, et cetera, but, certainly, CIA, the national agencies would, at some point, also get -- get the same take from the drone, as General Clark suggested.

This might be a drone sent on a mission of particular priority to the national command authority, and, as a result, you might have people in the Pentagon watching it real time. But, in most circumstances, the national agencies -- they'll get this a little bit later. It will go into their analyses of kind of more strategic issues whereas most of what this drone is looking at is probably of greater relevance, as best we can tell, to the tactical commanders, the operators on the ground and in the theater.

COOPER: General Clark, when you were commander of NATO in Kosovo, you said you used some sort of drones like this. How would you use this? What value did they bring to the battlefield?

CLARK: These were -- these were used for targeted in the Kosovo campaign, and here -- because we had no ground forces there.

But, in this case, they may be -- they may well be used for determining routes for units to move. They may be overwatching a unit that's moving on a route. They may be checking the tops of buildings for enemy snipers before the unit moves through. They could do any number of things.

They've got very good optics in them. They pass all those visuals back on real time, TV downlinks, probably somewhere to the units that are around the airport there in Baghdad and maybe even the units on the march, depending on what kind of electronic downlink capability they have.

COOPER: And -- I'm just looking at this graphic which shows that -- the two different drones that we're talking about.

There -- this one -- the Global Hawk moves at some 454 miles per hour, but the Predator was a lot slower. It was in the 100-, 150- mile-an-hour range.

It certainly could be shot down if, in fact, you had the capabilities of shooting something down.

CLARK: We lost a number of the Hunter drones over Kosovo. The Serbs did shoot them down. The Serbs did claim that they shot down NATO aircraft.

Of course, it's an unmanned vehicle, so -- and it costs less than some of the more expensive bombs that are dropped, and you don't lose one on every mission. You may lose a couple here. But it's well worth the investment.

It provides invaluable information, and it's something that armies have never had before.

COOPER: And, again, we should point out we do not know what sort of a drone this is, but we're getting quite a good shot of it right there from Lebanese Broadcasting right there.

Ken Pollack, as you look at this, why isn't it being shot down? Is it a question of their command and control structure is not in place to coordinate a shoot-down or simply that the anti-aircraft batteries no long exist? Do we know?

POLLACK: Well, obviously, it is possible that the anti-aircraft batteries don't exist, Anderson, but the Iraqis have so many AAA -- anti-aircraft artillery pieces. They had about 6,000 at the start of the war, and many of those were in the Baghdad area. So that seems less likely.

It does seem much more likely that this is a problem with command and control, and it's always important to keep in mind the Iraqi military is extraordinarily top down. Lower-level formations in the Iraqi military -- if they are not given explicit orders to do something, they do nothing. It's always their fall-back position.

It's never, you know, do something, improvise. It's always do nothing unless you are explicitly told to do so. What this suggests is that there is no one giving them the orders. Either someone is saying to them specifically don't shoot...

And it's hard to imagine why it is that they'd want to do that, maybe they don't want to give away their positions, but I think that they understand, at this point in time, coalition capabilities' to watch what they're doing, likely to determine those positions anyway.

I think more likely it is -- it goes back to the argument that General Pace was making earlier that the fact that the Iraqis are being forced to broadcast orders to their troops through these televised national messages by Saddam -- it suggests that there is a real breakdown of command and control.

COOPER: General Clark, do you agree?

CLARK: I do, but there's one other thing. I would just say that the U.S. forces would probably love to see the Iraqi anti-aircraft system open up on this drone because it will look right back down, identify the location of the anti-aircraft fire, and, with the close- air support stacked up overhead, of course, the Iraqi positions will be immediately attacked.

And one of the things you could think of is this is a drone that's more or less trolling. It's looking for trouble, and, if it's engaged, well, that's part -- that provides the sort of targeting information you need to further attack the Iraqi forces in the city.

COOPER: A drone looking for trouble. I like that, General Clark. A good turn of phrase there.

All right. It's -- I never thought it would be fascinating to watch a drone fly in the sky, but I've got to say it actually is. It's -- not only for just the visual image of it, but for all the things that one can sort of read into it and what it means for the facts on the ground.

Ken Pollack, General Clark, thanks very much. Interesting analysis.

We are joined now by CNN Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider. He wants -- is here to talk about the latest political reaction to how the war is going.

A new poll is out.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: We do have a new poll, and, basically, you know, what we've seen is what a difference a week makes. A week of steady military progress has transformed the political environment surrounding this war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Last week, the air was filled with recriminations and finger pointing. Even inside the Pentagon.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, I want to ask you once again about criticism from current and former officers about the flow of forces to the region and also whether there are sufficient forces in Iraq.

SCHNEIDER: That drew a testy response.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: It is not helpful to have those kind of comments come out when we've got troops in combat because, first of all, they're false, they're absolutely wrong, they bear no resemblance to the truth.

SCHNEIDER: Then coalition forces made it to Baghdad with astonishing speech. The Republican Guard's ring of steel around Baghdad became a ring of smoke.

Debate over the war has been stifled. You don't quarrel with success, and, right now, an overwhelming majority of Americans is certain the U.S. will win, even though Baghdad has not been taken and Saddam Hussein may still be in power and no weapons of mass destruction have been found and coalition forces have not been greeted with widespread scenes of jubilation.

A national survey last week by the "Los Angeles Times" found evidence that even Democrats are getting on board. Two-thirds of Democrats joined with 91 percent of Republicans to express approval of the way President Bush is handling the war in Iraq. Seventy percent of Democrats, along with almost all Republicans, support the Bush administration's decision to go to war.

At least one Democrat did choose to quarrel with success. Senator John Kerry, a presidential candidate, said in New Hampshire last week that what the country needs is a regime change in the United States. Shut up, Republicans exclaimed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Timing is everything, and, right now, the timing does not seem right for a political debate over this year.

COOPER: Well, it certainly seems like it, I mean, with this one poll number, about 70-percent approval for the war.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. That 70-percent approval has remained absolutely steady. The past week, it's 70 percent. Weeks before that, it was 70 percent. It suggests that Americans have made up their minds this war is worth doing, and it's held up even when things weren't going well on the battlefield.

COOPER: There's been so much talk about weapons of mass destruction, searching for them. Does that matter to Americans? Do they care whether or not weapons of mass destruction are found in terms of how it's going to influence their support of the war?

SCHNEIDER: It's remarkable. A week ago, it would have mattered because only 38 percent said this war would be justified, even if no weapons of mass destruction are found. Only 38 percent said that.

But now, in their latest poll, 58 percent say it doesn't matter if we don't find any weapons of mass destruction. Getting rid of Saddam Hussein is enough of a justification.

COOPER: And I wonder how much of that is just the more pictures you see of Iraqi civilians, you know, smiling, happy, welcoming U.S. troops -- I wonder how much of that influences -- it seems a lot of influence, though, that Americans are very confident in the war plan itself.

SCHNEIDER: The war plan got a lot of criticism early on. We've heard it -- heard about it just a minute ago.

Military commanders were arguing with the Pentagon. They said there wasn't enough heavily artillery. There weren't enough ground forces. Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld seemed to favor a more high-technology plan, what's sometimes called a net war.

But, you know, you just don't find much criticism here in the American public. This war has gone very well as far as Americans are concerned, especially this Special-Operations unit that had disabled the bridges and dams that the Iraqis planned to blow up and that rescued Jessica Lynch.

COOPER: And it seems like many Americans have an opinion on how Iraqi civilians view American troops.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. We haven't seen widespread jubilation over the arrival of the American and British, quote, "liberators," unquote. We've seen a lot of wariness and some resistance. But Americans have concluded that's because of fear, and there's been some evidence of that.

They think that when American -- when Saddam Hussein is finally overthrown, the real feelings of Iraqis will come out and the real feelings, you see right there, is that the American and British forces, the coalition forces, will be regarded as liberators, not as invaders.

COOPER: All right. Bill Schneider, thanks very much.

SCHNEIDER: Sure. Appreciate it.

COOPER: Well, coming up tonight, an update from the Pentagon and the situation not in Baghdad but small-town Iraq. A fascinating contrast. A lot more ahead. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the war in Iraq. There is so much happening on the ground right now in Iraq.

We want to get a military analysis from CNN's Kathleen Koch who is at the Pentagon with an update on the camp -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson.

Well, U.S. forces are clearly slowly drawing closed that very, very important noose around Baghdad. U.S. forces moving up from both the Southeast to Southwest, heading northward, and hoping to entirely encircle the city.

There are checkpoints set up at the main intersections on the perimeter of the city. The goal there clearly to cut off the inflow of any supplies, the inflow of any reinforcements to the remaining units of the Iraq Republican Guard that are still at work and still in place in Baghdad.

Coalition forces are also solidifying their hold on the airport. Very strategic. The first C-130 landed there today, heavily laden with supplies, and that is going to truly help the U.S. military lessen its dependence on this very long and sometimes tenuous supply line that stretches some 350 miles south all the way to Kuwait.

Interesting discovery on the part of troops right there at the airport. As they were digging some trenches and bulldozing sand berms to really reinforce their position there, they came across caches of arms. There you see them. One of the weapons caches had 12 crates of shoulder-fired missiles.

Military officials are also saying these bold raids into the heart of Baghdad, into the city by armored convoys -- that those will continue, obviously. The U.S. military saying that they believe they have killed some 2,000 to 3,000 Iraqi soldiers in those raids. But, at the same time, the Pentagon is cautioning that this war is far from over.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Well, there's no doubt that it is still possible that we will have some significant ahead of us, and I would never want anyone to think that is not possible.

On the other hand, I am very comfortable and very confident that the soldiers and Marines who we might call on to do that have been trained exceptionally well and that they will be equally efficient in the city, as they have been in the countryside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: And the British military is now reporting that it believes that General Ali Hassan al-Majeed, Saddam Hussein's cousin, otherwise known as Chemical Ali, was probably killed in that recent coalition attack on his Basra home.

Still, U.S. officials point out that while Ali's body guard was found dead, they have not found the remains of Ali himself, though they do say that they had, quote, "very good intelligence" that night that Ali was at that very location.

So, again, right now, a lot of talk here, as we were seeing those -- the video of the -- what is believed to have possibly been a Predator drone over the City of Baghdad. The coalition putting those drones to great use in order to protect the lives of U.S. and British airmen.

Back to you.

COOPER: And, Kathleen, I guess the drone, which we've been sort of transfixed behind the last 20 minutes or so, part of this whole new coalition air strategy over Baghdad, providing close urban air support and the notion of stacking U.S. fighter planes over the city at all times, at least two at all times, to provide close cover.

KOCH: Precisely. The head of the coalition's air force over Iraq did point out yesterday that we would have two U.S. warplanes in the skies at all times over Iraq -- not really sure if he was including a drone in that count of two -- the thought being that if U.S. forces on the ground got into trouble that these aircraft could carefully -- could quickly call in reinforcement F-16s to help any sort of -- help the troops on the ground again if they got into trouble.

But the drone at this point most likely would be being used to spot potential targets, targets of opportunity, within the confines of this city, perhaps some holdout positions of the Iraqi Republican Guard, tanks, other things. The U.S. military has said it's very concerned that Iraqi -- that the Iraqi military is positioning next to mosques, next to schools, and in hospitals, putting their own population at risk -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes. A drone, as retired General Wesley Clark just said to us before the commercial break -- a drone out looking for trouble, I suppose.

So, Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon, thanks very much. We'll talk to you a little bit later from now.

U.S. Marines in central Iraq are clearing out Iraqi fighters and clearing up questions raised by Iraqi civilians.

Alessio Vinci explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Speaking in Arabic, U.S. Sergeant Nasser Manasterli leads a team of Marines approaching a house of civilians in central Iraq, their weapons drawn.

Soldiers or paramilitaries could be anywhere, Marines say, and every precaution is necessary.

Iraqi civilians are at first cautious because they have been warned American forces are up to no good.

SGT. NASSER MANASTERLI, U.S. MARINE CORPS: We talk to these people in the towns, and they say, you know, before we get here, there are forces -- direct forces come by and tell them the -- you know, the American military is going to rape your women, steal your clothes, steal your house. They're going to destroy you. They're going to kill you.

VINCI: Most Iraqis seem not to believe it. In fact, this man even offered Marines dates and breads only minutes after those same Marines were pointing weapons at him.

"It is safe here," says the old man. "I will get you some food."

The relationship between Marines and Iraqi civilians is a complicated one. Most welcome the troops here but also know they will eventually leave. So civilians tell Marines they can't help them too much out of fear of retribution.

MANASTERLI: You go to everybody's house. You're bound to find each house has one or two people killed by Saddam.

VINCI: And while Marines continue their mission here in central Iraq, it does also appear for some of them the first contacts with civilians is having some impact.

MANASTERLI: Yes, I personally was kind -- was skeptical about what were the causes for us actually to come over here, but now that I am here and I talk to locals and I see what their lives have been like and what kind of oppression they've been witnessing, you know, the reason is -- you know, doesn't really make -- whatever reasons it was that brought us over here doesn't really matter anymore.

VINCI: Sergeant Manasterli says his unit is telling the Iraqis Saddam days are numbered, although it will take a little bit longer for them to believe it.

Alessio Vinci, CNN, with the U.S. Marines in central Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, from central Iraq, we go back to Baghdad where, for the last half-hour or so, we have been watching a drone -- some sort of a drone, according to Lebanese Broadcasting, flying over the City of Baghdad. We no longer have the live picture, but we'll show you the tape picture.

And watching it as well at home is retired Major General Don Clark -- Don Shepperd who actually called this in. So we want to get him on the phone, as well as retired General Clark.

General Shepperd, you saw the pictures. What do you think it is?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, it looks to me like a Hunter drone, Anderson. It appears to be. It's used by the Army. Very likely launched -- launched from someplace like Baghdad International Airport, since we seem to have that under control.

It's got about, oh, I think eight to 10 hours of endurance. So it can stay up quite a long time. Operates at medium altitude and has sensors on it that allow it to take pictures and perhaps other sensors as well, and then datalink goes back to a control center.

It's meant for reconnaissance, obviously, to maintain constant surveillance over the battlefield or over an area such as Baghdad. It enables the Army to keep watch and out ahead of any ground thrusts that they would be pushing forward into the city.

COOPER: And, General Clark, this would clearly be one of the great advantages of holding a major strategic position like the airport that you can run something like this drone out of it if, in fact, that's where this drone is from.

CLARK: That's exactly right because this is a relatively slow drone. I mean it might take three or four -- three hours or so to fly this up from Kuwait, whereas if you hold this airfield right here, you can fly it right from here. You get the full use of it for its entire flight time.

COOPER: General Shepperd, the -- we were talking about how the information from the drone would be used. What's your sense of where the information being captured from the cameras that are believed to be on board, whatever else is believed to be on board -- where does it go?

SHEPPERD: Well, it goes to a command center, and I'll be very vague about that, but, basically, it will be datalinked to a command center that will process it and get it right to the command authority.

Now this Hunter is just one piece of an intelligence -- what we call an ISR network, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance, that goes all the way from satellites in space to high flyers like Global Hawk and the U-2 down to the Predator and the Hunter, is the lower of these.

It's very vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this one or others get shot down because it operates at lower altitudes and very slow airspeed, so the fact that it's not being shot at right now, at least we can't see it in daytime, doesn't mean it's not a hot target.

But, again, it goes to a -- some type of command headquarters and a prepared shelter that has the ability to take what it's got in the way of visual format and reduce it to something that a commander can use looking over the battlefield.

COOPER: General Clark, I think a lot -- you know, we've all sort of become used to seeing Predators, and we all know the name by now, especially after the conflict in Afghanistan, and you used these in Kosovo not -- probably not as many people knew about them in the civilian population back then.

The first time you -- I mean, it's easy to become blase about this kind of thing, but the first time you saw them and you saw the kind of intelligence -- real-time, battlefield, tactical intelligence that you could get, what went through your mind?

CLARK: Well, we -- we know about these things from the time -- back in the '80s, we began to try to get these into the United States Army.

And, believe it or not, developing an unmanned aerial vehicle is more difficult than it would -- you would think. Oh, it's just a model airplane. You just put a camera in it. It's not easy. And a lot of developmental work has gone in for a period of 15 years to produce something like this Hunter.

This is actually a copy of another Air Force's system we brought into the United States and developed. The Predator was developed by our own people. The Predator flies higher, has a little bit greater range. We first used the Predator in peacekeeping operations over Bosnia in the mid to late 1990s. So it was even before the Kosovo campaign.

These Hunters were purchased by the United States Army and developed as a corps and division asset. After we saw it used at the corps level, it was clear it had to be organized so that even lower- level commanders could have access to this imagery because it's so timely and it's so valuable in terms of actual tactical direction of the battle.

And so I think that, you know, every commander at every level would love to have his own unmanned aerial vehicle, from platoon leaders to company commanders on up. There's a real scramble to get the right aerial platform with the right optics and the right downlink. It's a huge advantage to have these assets.

COOPER: General Shepperd, when you -- I don't know if you were -- you heard before General Clark sort of describing this as a drone out looking for trouble, pointing out that, in a sense, coalition forces would love this drone to be fired upon because then the position of the anti-aircraft gunner is readily identifiable.

Is it -- is it a question of it being fired at, or would -- would the aircraft gunner have to turn on their radar in order to get an effective shot, and I guess that making it all the more vulnerable to counterattack?

SHEPPERD: Well, this is not a -- this is not a drone that you'd shoot out with a radar-guided missile. It's got a very low radar cross section.

And General Clark is right. He's looking for any kind of trouble out there. He's looking for AAA sites, for missile sites, for artillery, for anything that might be assembling in the way of weapons of mass destruction launch, mainly artillery. So he is just out there looking for trouble.

And General Clark's right. If somebody shoots that, it reveals their position for possible later strike.

But it's just useful in so many ways, and it's one of the major advantages that coalition forces have, their ability to see what other people can't see, to see trouble ahead of their forces, and to integrate that with weapons that can attack it, either from the air or artillery or whatever. It's a tremendous asset.

COOPER: General Clark, we -- we heard Ken Pollack talking about the large number of anti-aircraft batteries believed to be -- or at least at one time in the City of Baghdad itself. Even if it's identified where these sites are, they've got to be hard to take out because, from what we know from past experience with Iraq's forces, they're integrated all throughout civilian areas.

CLARK: Well, once they're identified, they can be taken out, either on the thunder runs by the fire from Bradleys and tanks, or you can take them out with a precision-guided munition from something like an A10 Warthog that's carrying a Maverick missile with about a 300- pound warhead. It will go right into that anti-aircraft site. It will take it out very precisely.

Of course, if they're right there on top of an apartment building and there's Iraqi civilians there, you might not want to do that. You might want to use another means. You might be able to use a 30- millimeter gun in a low-angle approach off an A10 to go after it.

But, in general, our Air Force pilots -- historically, we don't like to dual with anti-aircraft guns. We only do that when we're really safe and really secure. But, now that we're putting ground troops in, it's going to be important to get the anti-aircraft guns, if we can identify them, because they can be turned on our ground troops, and they are very heavy.

A 30-millimeter -- 37-millimeter anti-aircraft gun is a very effective weapon against our troops, if it's employed against our troops, so we want to take them out.

COOPER: All right. We've got to take a break here.

General Clark, as always, thanks very much.

Major General Don Shepperd.

Hey, thanks so much for calling in. I know you're at home or wherever you were just watching this and called in with the information. Appreciate it. Always good to talk to you.

We're going to take a short break. We're going to come back with headlines and a look at the big picture of what's going on on the ground. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Around Baghdad>


Aired April 6, 2003 - 23:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: You are looking again at a live picture of Baghdad, 7:02 a.m. Moments ago, we heard the sound of gunshots in the distance, echoing across the city. We will continue to monitor the picture and bring you the latest as it happens.
We're going to check in with what is going on in northern Iraq. Coalition air strikes have been helping clear the way for Kurdish troops and U.S. Special Forces. But earlier today, they hit the wrong target. We'll have more on that in a moment.

Right away, though, we want to go up to Northern Iraq to our own Thomas Nybo, who is with the 173rd Airborne Brigade.

Thomas - what's the latest where you are?

THOMAS NYBO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I just returned from headquarters. Essentially, daybreak has arrived, and the initial verdict is that last night's artillery raid was successful.

Now, to recap exactly, this is what happened. Some Special Forces, operating along the green line, had basically found some Iraqi soldiers, hundreds of them, as many as 500 in one region. And so what happened was they called in coalition air strikes. But these Iraqi soldiers had access to underground escape tunnels. They'd see the planes coming; they'd flee.

So what happened was they brought in the 173rd, the Paratroopers that jumped into Iraq about a week-and-a-half ago, and they wanted to catch these guys by surprise. So they hooked up a couple of Howitzer Cannons to Humvees. They drove within about nine miles of the green line, and they just opened fire.

For one hour, they fired about 50 105 millimeter shells just continually on these Iraqi soldiers. And the initial word is that the success was - that the attack was successful.

Now, in the next 12 to 14 hours, they should get visual confirmation. The only way they have of knowing whether that was successful is a lone Special Forces Operative using night vision goggles, who was there throughout the night.

And essentially what happened was the 173rd would fire one round. He would tell them where it landed. They'd make the necessary adjustments, and then they essentially unloaded all of their ammunition. In a few hours, they'll find out how successful they were. COOPER: Thomas, we're also joined by Retired General Wesley Clark, who's probably going to be asking you some questions.

And, General Clark, that's basically how it works. With an artillery battery, you have to have some sort of forward observation post, is that right?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, (RET.), FMR. NATO SUPREME ALLIED CMDR., CNN MILITARY ANALYST: You do if you're going to put accurate fires on target. You could fire at a grid, but this is the right way to do it so you've got someone calling the adjustment of the rounds.

COOPER: If you want to ask Thomas Nybo anything, feel free.

CLARK: Well, Thomas, I would like to ask you - we heard maybe 10 days ago, when the 173rd had jumped in, they secured the airfield, the idea was that there'd be some heavier equipment brought in. If you can tell us, what's going on up there and what is the status of the buildup of forces around that airfield?

NYBO: The buildup of forces has been strong. Now, for reasons of operation security, I'm not allowed to talk about the status of the Abrams Tanks or the Bradley Fighting Vehicles. But I can say that that was definitely part of the plan, to bring in the big guns.

Now, as far as unloading and actually putting these guns into action, the closest we've come is to Howitzers that were used tonight. They essentially brought out two of those and used them for one hour on these Iraqi soldiers. That's where we're at now.

CLARK: All right. Well, there were hopes that this would provide a sort of armored nucleus around which the Peshmerga and the Special Forces and others could work. And I know you can't discuss that now, but it is reassuring to see that the 173rd has gotten into the action here and is able to assist in the work against the Iraqis in the northern area.

COOPER: Now, Thomas, you were saying that this is the first time the 173rd have been using this sort of Howitzer in combat in quite a long time. Is that right?

NYBO: It was almost like a locker room situation. The commander down here essentially spoke to the troops and gave them a motivational speech and said, basically, this is the first time in more than three decades that the 173rd has fired shells on an enemy of the United States. They were basically decommissioned after Vietnam, brought back into action a couple of years ago. And this is the first time they've actually been able to use those weapons, yes.

COOPER: Thomas, how - we were looking at some of those pictures that we just got in a short time ago, those night vision pictures of Howitzers firing their shells. How smooth an operation is it, the loading, the reloading? If you - I'm not sure if you witnessed it yourself. But if you did, describe it.

NYBO: It is unbelievably efficient. These guys love the darkness. In fact, we were in a convoy of about 12 or 13 Humvees, driving in complete darkness. Every single driver, every single passenger, every military - every soldier, essentially, had on night vision goggles.

It was so dark. You could hear the orders being barked out. My camera could not pick up the Howitzers. I actually had to borrow a set of these night vision goggles and hold them in front of the camera lens just to be able to get the grainy images that I sent back to Atlanta.

COOPER: Thomas and General Clark, just so you know, we've got - been soliciting some e-mails from viewers who wanted to ask questions of our embedded correspondents.

So, Thomas, this is actually a question from a Greg in Ironton, Minnesota. He writes, "Do the men on the tanks, trucks ever get to rest? Do they take turns watching out for one another while the other group rests?"

NYBO: They stick to a pretty tight schedule. I mean it's a little different with the 173rd here. I mean these guys, they sit there in a microcosm. The essentially - they're given a mission; they go out and do it. It's not like they're charging into Baghdad like some of these other troops.

But they've got a schedule like clockwork right here.

COOPER: Do - you know, we heard from some members of the 173rd over the last couple days. In sort of the first 24, 48 hours after they arrived, they were setting up that air base, Harir Air Base. Is there a sense of anticipation that they want to get in on what is going on? I mean I imagine as a soldier, to some degree, if you're going to be in the field, you want to be where stuff is going on.

NYBO: Absolutely true. A lot of these guys, 18, 19, 20 years old - you know, the way that it was explained to me, two-thirds of this brigade are what they call "trigger pullers." I mean these guys, they say this is what they're trained to do. You know, just give them the chance. And tonight, they were given a limited opportunity to do that.

But, you know, by and large, the bulk of the troops, they're itching for some action.

COOPER: We have another question, actually, from Karol in Baltimore, Maryland, at 65955 for the graphic people. Karol in Baltimore, Maryland wrote in, "what is the spiritual state morale of the U.S. troops fighting daily?" - Thomas.

NYBO: It's interesting. I mean, morale has been strong. And as far as spirituality, you know, it was Sunday here, and they essentially held a mass. You know, they took time out from their military duties. They came together in spirit. They feel that they're on the same page.

They're very inquisitive. They want to know - they keep pumping me for information about what the sentiment is back home. What are Americans doing? Of course, I'm out here with them, so I'm not sure. I don't have my hand on the pulse of America. But they want to know what America thinks about what they're doing here in northern Iraq.

COOPER: All right - Thomas Nybo with the 173rd Airborne Brigade. Thanks. We'll check in with you in a little bit. Some historic - at least for the 173rd Airborne Brigade. Historic, the first time, according to Thomas - he heard their commander tell them - that they have fired upon enemy positions in about three decades or so, I believe he said. So an interesting development there for the 173rd Airborne in northern Iraq.

We're going to come back to northern Iraq in a moment. I want to just show you some pictures and some sounds from Baghdad just a few moments ago. Gunfire - gunfire heard in Baghdad this morning.

General Clark, I don't know if you're still there, but if you are, as you listen to that, can you identify that at all? I mean it doesn't initially sound like gunfire to me. It sounds just sort of more like some sort of rolling thunder like munitions.

CLARK: It's really tough to identify it from here, Anderson. It's probably a combination of artillery fire and even, perhaps, bombing.

COOPER: As we continue to look at this picture, General Clark, talk a little bit about this change that has been announced over the last 24, 36 hours or so, close urban air support, these coalition aircraft - mainly U.S. aircraft - going to be circling over Baghdad, providing close urban combat support.

CLARK: Right, Anderson. The idea is that these aircraft would be responsive to the troops on the ground.

In other words, rather than going after pre-designated targets taking off from their aircraft carrier or base in Kuwait and flying up and striking and then returning, they would go up, they word orbit the city. As Jamie McIntyre said, they would be stacked up in several different altitude layers.

And then they've got a certain amount of time on target. They've got certain weapons mixed. And they wait for the troops on the ground to call to the aircraft to come and strike a designated target.

The troops call it. They may designate it with a laser. They may get it by a grid coordinate. And then the aircraft strikes. And then there are other aircraft immediately available to follow up.

COOPER: And as we continue to listen to these rumbling sounds, not sure if it's air - gunfire, as we had been told a little while ago, or some sort of munitions being dropped.

I was also interested to read recently about some of the kinds of munitions that they are going to be dropping on Baghdad now that they are providing this kind of close air support. Very concerned about civilian casualties, so CENTCOM saying that they might even be dropping munitions that do not have explosive warheads. Explain that.

CLARK: That's right because just the kinetic energy of a large 500-pound object falling from 20,000 feet creates quite a shock. It will go through several floors of a building, may take down a building. And that might be all that you need to do in a particular circumstance.

You don't want to endanger people in the other buildings. You're not trying to break windows a half mile around and cut people with flying glass. That's what you're trying to prevent.

And so, in that sense, it makes perfect - it's a perfectly good idea to use a solid warhead that's non-explosive.

COOPER: All right - General Clark. Thanks. We'll talk to you again very shortly.

We want to go back now to northern Iraq. There has been so much happening there over the last 12 or 20 hours or so. In northern Iraq, coalition air strikes have been helping to clear the way for Kurdish troops, as well as U.S. Special Forces. But earlier today, they hit the wrong target.

Our Jane Arraf reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Near this ridge in northern Iraq, the sound, the fury and the chaos of war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hang it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hanging!

ARRAF: That mortar didn't go off, but just a few hundred meters away, one air strike that shouldn't have did.

A few hours earlier, a U.S. bomb dropped on a convoy of friendly forces, Kurdish soldiers backing U.S. troops. At least 18 people were killed and 45 wounded. Among them, a senior Kurdish military commander, the brother of the head of the regional Kurdish government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were way down in the valley when that happened. We turned around and we saw the plume of smoke way behind us. And all we did - we heard that some friendlies may have been hit, and we just sent our medics back up the top of the hill to render what aid they could for what happened.

ARRAF: A Kurdish military commander visiting the scene put on a brave front, saying the accident wouldn't affect moral or relations with the Americans, what the Kurds see as a liberation force.

The convoy had been heading toward this troop of Special Forces holding the front line.

(on camera): These soldiers on the ridge are known as the Forward Air Control Post. It's kind of like an air traffic control tower, except they're guiding in F-14s, telling them where to target and drop 2,000-pound bombs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger, laser code 1711 (UNINTELLIGIBLE) 10 seconds and laser on (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ARRAF (voice-over): That dot in the sky quickly turns into an F- 14. It howls over the ridge before dropping its laser guided bomb on targets supplied by the U.S. spotters on the ground. The targets: Iraqi tanks which advance toward the Americans before they could call in air cover.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We seen the tanks coming out of the haze. We pulled back to the ridge line here. We broke out our Javelin Missiles. We fired six missiles and took four tanks with the six missile shots.

So you could see - most of them are already done burning already. We felt a little bit more pressure. We took some artillery. We see them far out, nothing really close. And then we backed up to here.

ARRAF: After a day on this ridge, tempers start to fray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Don't even shoot that last (UNINTELLIGIBLE). You're wasting it. Look, it's three clicks up.

ARRAF: While Kurdish soldiers down the road were still absorbing the horror of the friendly fire from their allies, U.S. soldiers got on with holding the ridge.

Jane Arraf, CNN, near Dibigan (ph) in northern Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: What you are looking at is a live picture being broadcast on the Lebanese Broadcasting Channel. They are describing it as a drone flying over the city of Baghdad. We simply do not know. We have not confirmed what it is.

We want to bring in Retired General Wesley Clark.

General Clark, I assume you can see the picture. What are your thoughts?

CLARK: Well, it could very well be a drone. We probably have several of them in the air around Baghdad or maybe even over Baghdad.

These are aircraft that are control by a radio from a remote location. They normally carry cameras, one or more that's either electro-optical or whatever they're hooked up with, a TV link so the people back in the control centers can actually see what's coming.

This is one of the technology advantages that U.S. forces will have in this urban fight that no forces have ever had before.

COOPER: Remarkable, not just to see it flying over the city of Baghdad live on television, also remarkable for what we are not seeing, which is anti-aircraft fire trying to hit it.

CLARK: That's exactly right. And this shows you that this is an aircraft that is visible. If there were coordinate air defenses in Baghdad, someone would probably be engaging it, and they're not.

COOPER: Psychologically, what does this - what message does this send to the residents of Baghdad?

CLARK: That's the next point, Anderson. This is clearly a warning to the people in Baghdad that their air defense system is not working.

To all of the military people, the Fedayeen and others - and we don't know if this aircraft is audible on the ground. It depends on the level of noise. Normally, it has to be pretty quiet before you can hear them.

But if it is audible and they look up and they see this, then they must realize that they really have no protection from the skies at all.

COOPER: And some of these, the Predator, among others, can carry a missile, which is something we learned when there was the incident, I believe it was in Yemen, where an unmanned drone was used to actually fire a missile on a moving vehicle.

CLARK: That's exactly right. They can. In downtown Baghdad, we probably also have that capability. We would want, in this case - because of the presence of civilians, we'd want to know exactly what we're shooting a missile at. In other words, if it's shooting a car, you want somebody to tell you who's in that car.

But if it's shooting at a tank, as long as you can identify it as an enemy tank, it's fair game. And they're very well may be armed unmanned aerial vehicles in use here.

COOPER: And I assume, if these drones become a more regular sight, I don't think we're going to see many more street walk-alongs of Saddam Hussein and/or a double - whatever the case was - or any more street press conferences by the Iraqi information minister. This is the kind of thing that would spot that - or could be used to spot movements on the ground very quickly.

CLARK: That's exactly right. And these aircraft have exceptional optics. They can look out of a slant range, so they don't have to be directly overhead. And it's really impossible for people on the ground to figure out what the aircraft is observing.

So there's no indication. It's up there. It could be looking at them.

COOPER: And this is really - I mean not just this particular aircraft, if it, in fact, is one of the unmanned drones that we've heard so much about - and for our viewers who are just joining us, this is a shot on the right hand side - the left hand side of the screen, of course, is a shot of Baghdad. The right hand side of the screen is a shot from Lebanese Broadcasting of what they described as an unmanned drone or a drone flying over the city of Baghdad. We simply have not been able to independently verify what it is. But it is certainly becoming clearer and clearer as it approaches the camera position.

What seems remarkable, though - and General Clark, if you could talk about this a little bit - is the advancement in real-time battlefield intelligence that the U.S. military and coalition forces are able to get now versus the first Gulf War.

CLARK: Well, that's right, Anderson, because in the first Gulf War, we had just started with the use of the unmanned aerial vehicles. And that was the first war we could - we call it the first war in the information age.

We realized we needed huge - at that time huge - pipelines of data for logistics reasons. And we were sending photographs back and forth. And that's very bandwidth intensive.

But we didn't have the real-time video coverage. We started with the real-time video coverage in the Kosovo campaign. And we've enriched it here. It uses very, very large pipes, but it's able to be distributed down from high level headquarters, down very close to the battlefield so the commanders can actually radio the people on the ground who are ahead moving and warn them, tell them what they see. In some cases, they can even send a still picture forward.

COOPER: And - I mean, how intricate is this? Does this information go from that drone - if, in fact, that was a drone - to CENTCOM in Doha, Qatar and then back? And now we're looking at a shot from Al Jazeera, again, of this drone, which continues, apparently, to go unimpeded, unattacked over the city of Baghdad.

How extensive, though, General Clark, is this network/

CLARK: Well, it's quite extensive, Anderson, and you can't know, from looking at that drone, exactly where the picture might be going. That picture could be seen in the Pentagon. It could be seen in the U.S./European Command Headquarters. It could be seen at MacDill Air Force Base. It could be seen, perhaps, in a brigade headquarters that's at the airfield, right there outside Baghdad, and maybe even further to the front.

COOPER: All right, General Clark, thanks very much. And just a reminder, what is significant, of course, of that picture, not just the picture, what you're seeing, but that you're not seeing anti- aircraft fire trying to target that drone. Read into that what you will. General Clark - thanks. We'll check in with you shortly.

We have an update now on the war's casualty count. Eighty U.S. service members have been killed. That includes 66 in hostile actions, 14 non-hostile deaths.

Thirty British troops killed in the war, at least nine killed in combat, 19 in non-hostile accidents. Two of the 30 deaths of the British are still undetermined.

Iraqi officials report 420 civilians have been killed in the war. The Iraqi government says about 4,000 civilians have been injured. And U.S. Central Command reports coalition forces hold 6,000 Iraqi POWs.

Well, it's been said Iraqis are thirsty for freedom second and water first. Coming up, rebuilding Iraq and the politics of it all. CNN Analyst Ken Pollack joins us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage. There's a lot to talk about this morning, late this evening, I should say.

Secretary of State Colin Powell began talks with NATO members about post-war Iraq last week. He said they U.N. would play a role but not a larger role than coalition nations during an interim period. Plans for post-war Iraq are still in flux, to say the least, with many scenarios yet to be tested.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, U.S. DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: We can't say that anyone should take a leading role at the - by definition, if you're going to have a government or even a transitional authority that represents the legitimate views of the Iraqi people, it's Iraqi people that have to decide.

But what we want to make sure is that all Iraqis are free to participate in building a future government of their country.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, you might be wondering why we're talking about this now, with the battle for Baghdad still going on. Well, tomorrow, President Bush flies to Belfast to meet with British Prime Minister Tony Blair.

On the agenda, a discussion of post-war Iraq, who will do the rebuilding and how will the Iraqi people be involved. There are a lot of issues involved, a lot to discuss.

We've invited our analyst, Ken Pollack, to join the discussion.

Ken, thanks for being with us. First of all, I just want to start. You saw those pictures of that - what appeared to be a drone circling over Baghdad. I know it's not what we planned to talk about, but your thoughts on seeing that and not seeing anti-aircraft fire targeting it.

KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Yes, you know, Anderson, it's a really good question because it is part of the mystery of what's going on. Iraqi resistance has been rather bizarre over the course of this entire campaign. I think that you can honestly say that we have not exactly seen what we expected to out of the Iraqis. I'll throw in another one there. Why on earth were the defenses of Baghdad not better prepared by the time that U.S. forces got up in that area?

It does seem that the Iraqis were expecting to hold us longer at that Republican Guard line that they established from Karbala to Kut. But still, you should have been building defenses around Baghdad as the fall-back position. They weren't doing anything like it.

It suggests - let me put it this way. It is consistent with what U.S. Intelligence analysts have been saying all along, you might see, if Saddam Hussein were no longer in charge, if he were dead or incapacitated.

This might be some of the best evidence that we have that maybe Saddam Hussein was actually killed or incapacitated in that early attack and, as a result, his minions aren't able to coordinate their actions as well as they might have.

COOPER: I guess the other scenario would be one that General Peter Pace, the vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, mentioned on Sunday, that maybe Saddam Hussein is simply just a lousy general.

POLLACK: Well, look, there's no question that Saddam Hussein is a lousy general. But what we've seen of Saddam in the past is that his fall-back position, his default position in war is always fight as hard as you possibly can.

He doesn't fight smart, but he always just tells his forces, throw up everything you can, just shoot, just fire, just fight as much as you can. It seems really incongruous for Saddam Hussein to be in charge, to have all of these forces running around Baghdad. And remember, we know, from these various Army incursions into Baghdad, that there are still a lot of guys in Baghdad with guns, trying to resist the U.S. push.

COOPER: All right, let's talk about post-Saddam Hussein/Iraq, because it does seem inevitable, certainly given the facts on the ground as we know them.

There's - I don't even know where to begin, really. What do you think this thing is going to look like six months from now? What is Baghdad, what is Iraq going to look like?

POLLACK: Well, the honest answer is, Anderson, we just don't know because, truth to tell, the Bush administration does not seem to have made up its mind.

They've got some basic ideas about what they want post-war Iraq to look like, but there are still, as best we can tell, some very fierce fights raging on key issues. Key issues like what kind of a role is the external Iraqi opposition going to play in this new government, and what kind of a role is the United Nations going to play? As you know, Prime Minister Blair and a lot of the other European countries would like to see the U.N. at least have some kind of umbrella control over the reconstruction, even if the U.S. is doing the lion's share of the work behind the scenes. There are people in the Bush administration who are pushing back hard with that.

With regard to the Iraqi opposition, there are some in the Bush administration who think that the Iraqi opposition ought to be playing a leading role, maybe even running the entire transitional authority. Other people in the Bush administration pushing back hard, saying we don't want to prejudice things. The Iraqi opposition can play some role, but the U.S. should not be putting them into a position of power because they'll look like nothing but puppets.

COOPER: How badly do you want to be a fly on the wall during this hastily arranged summit over the next two days? Because it's got to just be fascinating because, I mean, from my limited understanding of all of this, Tony Blair was the one sort of pushing the U.S. to go through the U.N.

They kind of did that. It didn't really go, to say the least, the way they had wanted it to go. Now, Tony Blair, it would seem, is going to be pushing a larger U.N. role in a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq than President George Bush is going to want. It's just going to be an amazing discussion.

POLLACK: Yes, you're absolutely right, Anderson. You put your finger on exactly the key issue out there, which is - unfortunately, Prime Minister Blair and also Secretary of State Powell, who also reportedly wants a strong U.N. role in this - they're in a very weak position because of how things played out over the last six months.

Now, on the one hand, you can say, look, this shouldn't have anything - one shouldn't have anything to do with the other. Post-war Iraq is a very different situation from the issue of the run-up to war, the inspections, et cetera.

But the simple fact of the matter is that many in the Bush administration have a very bad taste in their mouth as a result of how the French, the Germans, the Russians, others in the U.N. handled the run-up to war.

COOPER: And, of course, the other big question, which I'd love to talk about - we're out of time now, maybe another time - is what role is France going to play in all of this. You know, are they going to be allowed to do anything by the U.S.? It will be very interesting to see.

Ken, it's always good to talk to you. I think you're going to stick around maybe a little bit, maybe talk more about this ground war. We'll check in with you in a little while.

POLLACK: Sounds good.

COOPER: We're going to have the headlines when we come back and a new take on what Americans think of the war and the progress so far. Our Bill Schneider is along to run the numbers on that when our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

COOPER: I want to show you this live picture that we have been looking at of a -- what appears to be some sort of a drone. I'm not sure if this is a live picture anymore. This is actually a tape. The live picture was -- occurred just a few months ago. It -- from Lebanese broadcasting.

It appears to be some sort of a drone -- Lebanese broadcasting is describing it at least as a drone flying over the City of Baghdad, and, as we have remarked in the last couple of minutes, remarkable for what we are seeing, which is this drone just flying along, and what we are not seeing, anti-aircraft fire trying to pin it down.

We're joined now by General Wesley Clark, as well as Ken Pollack, a CNN analyst, to just talk about this a little bit.

General Clark, again, just for those who are just joining us, this kind of drone, if that is, in fact, what it -- what else could it be, frankly?

CLARK: Well, it is a drone. It's -- as we got a better look at it a few minutes ago, you could see what type it is. It looks like one of the drones that the U.S. forces use.

COOPER: Could be armed. Could be not armed.

CLARK: It's probably not armed. It's probably carrying a couple different cameras.

COOPER: And, Ken, I know you were an Iraq analyst for a long time. Is this the kind of information that you would -- I mean the results of the kind of stuff this drone would pick up that you would analyze. How...

POLLACK: Well...

COOPER: How would this information be used by others, other than those on the battlefield?

POLLACK: Well, actually, there's -- the first cut at this information will probably go -- as General Clark was suggesting, would go immediately go to more tactical users, the folks over at Baghdad International Airport, others, et cetera, but, certainly, CIA, the national agencies would, at some point, also get -- get the same take from the drone, as General Clark suggested.

This might be a drone sent on a mission of particular priority to the national command authority, and, as a result, you might have people in the Pentagon watching it real time. But, in most circumstances, the national agencies -- they'll get this a little bit later. It will go into their analyses of kind of more strategic issues whereas most of what this drone is looking at is probably of greater relevance, as best we can tell, to the tactical commanders, the operators on the ground and in the theater.

COOPER: General Clark, when you were commander of NATO in Kosovo, you said you used some sort of drones like this. How would you use this? What value did they bring to the battlefield?

CLARK: These were -- these were used for targeted in the Kosovo campaign, and here -- because we had no ground forces there.

But, in this case, they may be -- they may well be used for determining routes for units to move. They may be overwatching a unit that's moving on a route. They may be checking the tops of buildings for enemy snipers before the unit moves through. They could do any number of things.

They've got very good optics in them. They pass all those visuals back on real time, TV downlinks, probably somewhere to the units that are around the airport there in Baghdad and maybe even the units on the march, depending on what kind of electronic downlink capability they have.

COOPER: And -- I'm just looking at this graphic which shows that -- the two different drones that we're talking about.

There -- this one -- the Global Hawk moves at some 454 miles per hour, but the Predator was a lot slower. It was in the 100-, 150- mile-an-hour range.

It certainly could be shot down if, in fact, you had the capabilities of shooting something down.

CLARK: We lost a number of the Hunter drones over Kosovo. The Serbs did shoot them down. The Serbs did claim that they shot down NATO aircraft.

Of course, it's an unmanned vehicle, so -- and it costs less than some of the more expensive bombs that are dropped, and you don't lose one on every mission. You may lose a couple here. But it's well worth the investment.

It provides invaluable information, and it's something that armies have never had before.

COOPER: And, again, we should point out we do not know what sort of a drone this is, but we're getting quite a good shot of it right there from Lebanese Broadcasting right there.

Ken Pollack, as you look at this, why isn't it being shot down? Is it a question of their command and control structure is not in place to coordinate a shoot-down or simply that the anti-aircraft batteries no long exist? Do we know?

POLLACK: Well, obviously, it is possible that the anti-aircraft batteries don't exist, Anderson, but the Iraqis have so many AAA -- anti-aircraft artillery pieces. They had about 6,000 at the start of the war, and many of those were in the Baghdad area. So that seems less likely.

It does seem much more likely that this is a problem with command and control, and it's always important to keep in mind the Iraqi military is extraordinarily top down. Lower-level formations in the Iraqi military -- if they are not given explicit orders to do something, they do nothing. It's always their fall-back position.

It's never, you know, do something, improvise. It's always do nothing unless you are explicitly told to do so. What this suggests is that there is no one giving them the orders. Either someone is saying to them specifically don't shoot...

And it's hard to imagine why it is that they'd want to do that, maybe they don't want to give away their positions, but I think that they understand, at this point in time, coalition capabilities' to watch what they're doing, likely to determine those positions anyway.

I think more likely it is -- it goes back to the argument that General Pace was making earlier that the fact that the Iraqis are being forced to broadcast orders to their troops through these televised national messages by Saddam -- it suggests that there is a real breakdown of command and control.

COOPER: General Clark, do you agree?

CLARK: I do, but there's one other thing. I would just say that the U.S. forces would probably love to see the Iraqi anti-aircraft system open up on this drone because it will look right back down, identify the location of the anti-aircraft fire, and, with the close- air support stacked up overhead, of course, the Iraqi positions will be immediately attacked.

And one of the things you could think of is this is a drone that's more or less trolling. It's looking for trouble, and, if it's engaged, well, that's part -- that provides the sort of targeting information you need to further attack the Iraqi forces in the city.

COOPER: A drone looking for trouble. I like that, General Clark. A good turn of phrase there.

All right. It's -- I never thought it would be fascinating to watch a drone fly in the sky, but I've got to say it actually is. It's -- not only for just the visual image of it, but for all the things that one can sort of read into it and what it means for the facts on the ground.

Ken Pollack, General Clark, thanks very much. Interesting analysis.

We are joined now by CNN Senior Political Analyst Bill Schneider. He wants -- is here to talk about the latest political reaction to how the war is going.

A new poll is out.

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: We do have a new poll, and, basically, you know, what we've seen is what a difference a week makes. A week of steady military progress has transformed the political environment surrounding this war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): Last week, the air was filled with recriminations and finger pointing. Even inside the Pentagon.

QUESTION: Mr. Secretary, I want to ask you once again about criticism from current and former officers about the flow of forces to the region and also whether there are sufficient forces in Iraq.

SCHNEIDER: That drew a testy response.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: It is not helpful to have those kind of comments come out when we've got troops in combat because, first of all, they're false, they're absolutely wrong, they bear no resemblance to the truth.

SCHNEIDER: Then coalition forces made it to Baghdad with astonishing speech. The Republican Guard's ring of steel around Baghdad became a ring of smoke.

Debate over the war has been stifled. You don't quarrel with success, and, right now, an overwhelming majority of Americans is certain the U.S. will win, even though Baghdad has not been taken and Saddam Hussein may still be in power and no weapons of mass destruction have been found and coalition forces have not been greeted with widespread scenes of jubilation.

A national survey last week by the "Los Angeles Times" found evidence that even Democrats are getting on board. Two-thirds of Democrats joined with 91 percent of Republicans to express approval of the way President Bush is handling the war in Iraq. Seventy percent of Democrats, along with almost all Republicans, support the Bush administration's decision to go to war.

At least one Democrat did choose to quarrel with success. Senator John Kerry, a presidential candidate, said in New Hampshire last week that what the country needs is a regime change in the United States. Shut up, Republicans exclaimed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Timing is everything, and, right now, the timing does not seem right for a political debate over this year.

COOPER: Well, it certainly seems like it, I mean, with this one poll number, about 70-percent approval for the war.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. That 70-percent approval has remained absolutely steady. The past week, it's 70 percent. Weeks before that, it was 70 percent. It suggests that Americans have made up their minds this war is worth doing, and it's held up even when things weren't going well on the battlefield.

COOPER: There's been so much talk about weapons of mass destruction, searching for them. Does that matter to Americans? Do they care whether or not weapons of mass destruction are found in terms of how it's going to influence their support of the war?

SCHNEIDER: It's remarkable. A week ago, it would have mattered because only 38 percent said this war would be justified, even if no weapons of mass destruction are found. Only 38 percent said that.

But now, in their latest poll, 58 percent say it doesn't matter if we don't find any weapons of mass destruction. Getting rid of Saddam Hussein is enough of a justification.

COOPER: And I wonder how much of that is just the more pictures you see of Iraqi civilians, you know, smiling, happy, welcoming U.S. troops -- I wonder how much of that influences -- it seems a lot of influence, though, that Americans are very confident in the war plan itself.

SCHNEIDER: The war plan got a lot of criticism early on. We've heard it -- heard about it just a minute ago.

Military commanders were arguing with the Pentagon. They said there wasn't enough heavily artillery. There weren't enough ground forces. Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld seemed to favor a more high-technology plan, what's sometimes called a net war.

But, you know, you just don't find much criticism here in the American public. This war has gone very well as far as Americans are concerned, especially this Special-Operations unit that had disabled the bridges and dams that the Iraqis planned to blow up and that rescued Jessica Lynch.

COOPER: And it seems like many Americans have an opinion on how Iraqi civilians view American troops.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. We haven't seen widespread jubilation over the arrival of the American and British, quote, "liberators," unquote. We've seen a lot of wariness and some resistance. But Americans have concluded that's because of fear, and there's been some evidence of that.

They think that when American -- when Saddam Hussein is finally overthrown, the real feelings of Iraqis will come out and the real feelings, you see right there, is that the American and British forces, the coalition forces, will be regarded as liberators, not as invaders.

COOPER: All right. Bill Schneider, thanks very much.

SCHNEIDER: Sure. Appreciate it.

COOPER: Well, coming up tonight, an update from the Pentagon and the situation not in Baghdad but small-town Iraq. A fascinating contrast. A lot more ahead. Stay with us. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the war in Iraq. There is so much happening on the ground right now in Iraq.

We want to get a military analysis from CNN's Kathleen Koch who is at the Pentagon with an update on the camp -- Kathleen.

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson.

Well, U.S. forces are clearly slowly drawing closed that very, very important noose around Baghdad. U.S. forces moving up from both the Southeast to Southwest, heading northward, and hoping to entirely encircle the city.

There are checkpoints set up at the main intersections on the perimeter of the city. The goal there clearly to cut off the inflow of any supplies, the inflow of any reinforcements to the remaining units of the Iraq Republican Guard that are still at work and still in place in Baghdad.

Coalition forces are also solidifying their hold on the airport. Very strategic. The first C-130 landed there today, heavily laden with supplies, and that is going to truly help the U.S. military lessen its dependence on this very long and sometimes tenuous supply line that stretches some 350 miles south all the way to Kuwait.

Interesting discovery on the part of troops right there at the airport. As they were digging some trenches and bulldozing sand berms to really reinforce their position there, they came across caches of arms. There you see them. One of the weapons caches had 12 crates of shoulder-fired missiles.

Military officials are also saying these bold raids into the heart of Baghdad, into the city by armored convoys -- that those will continue, obviously. The U.S. military saying that they believe they have killed some 2,000 to 3,000 Iraqi soldiers in those raids. But, at the same time, the Pentagon is cautioning that this war is far from over.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: Well, there's no doubt that it is still possible that we will have some significant ahead of us, and I would never want anyone to think that is not possible.

On the other hand, I am very comfortable and very confident that the soldiers and Marines who we might call on to do that have been trained exceptionally well and that they will be equally efficient in the city, as they have been in the countryside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KOCH: And the British military is now reporting that it believes that General Ali Hassan al-Majeed, Saddam Hussein's cousin, otherwise known as Chemical Ali, was probably killed in that recent coalition attack on his Basra home.

Still, U.S. officials point out that while Ali's body guard was found dead, they have not found the remains of Ali himself, though they do say that they had, quote, "very good intelligence" that night that Ali was at that very location.

So, again, right now, a lot of talk here, as we were seeing those -- the video of the -- what is believed to have possibly been a Predator drone over the City of Baghdad. The coalition putting those drones to great use in order to protect the lives of U.S. and British airmen.

Back to you.

COOPER: And, Kathleen, I guess the drone, which we've been sort of transfixed behind the last 20 minutes or so, part of this whole new coalition air strategy over Baghdad, providing close urban air support and the notion of stacking U.S. fighter planes over the city at all times, at least two at all times, to provide close cover.

KOCH: Precisely. The head of the coalition's air force over Iraq did point out yesterday that we would have two U.S. warplanes in the skies at all times over Iraq -- not really sure if he was including a drone in that count of two -- the thought being that if U.S. forces on the ground got into trouble that these aircraft could carefully -- could quickly call in reinforcement F-16s to help any sort of -- help the troops on the ground again if they got into trouble.

But the drone at this point most likely would be being used to spot potential targets, targets of opportunity, within the confines of this city, perhaps some holdout positions of the Iraqi Republican Guard, tanks, other things. The U.S. military has said it's very concerned that Iraqi -- that the Iraqi military is positioning next to mosques, next to schools, and in hospitals, putting their own population at risk -- Anderson.

COOPER: Yes. A drone, as retired General Wesley Clark just said to us before the commercial break -- a drone out looking for trouble, I suppose.

So, Kathleen Koch at the Pentagon, thanks very much. We'll talk to you a little bit later from now.

U.S. Marines in central Iraq are clearing out Iraqi fighters and clearing up questions raised by Iraqi civilians.

Alessio Vinci explains.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Speaking in Arabic, U.S. Sergeant Nasser Manasterli leads a team of Marines approaching a house of civilians in central Iraq, their weapons drawn.

Soldiers or paramilitaries could be anywhere, Marines say, and every precaution is necessary.

Iraqi civilians are at first cautious because they have been warned American forces are up to no good.

SGT. NASSER MANASTERLI, U.S. MARINE CORPS: We talk to these people in the towns, and they say, you know, before we get here, there are forces -- direct forces come by and tell them the -- you know, the American military is going to rape your women, steal your clothes, steal your house. They're going to destroy you. They're going to kill you.

VINCI: Most Iraqis seem not to believe it. In fact, this man even offered Marines dates and breads only minutes after those same Marines were pointing weapons at him.

"It is safe here," says the old man. "I will get you some food."

The relationship between Marines and Iraqi civilians is a complicated one. Most welcome the troops here but also know they will eventually leave. So civilians tell Marines they can't help them too much out of fear of retribution.

MANASTERLI: You go to everybody's house. You're bound to find each house has one or two people killed by Saddam.

VINCI: And while Marines continue their mission here in central Iraq, it does also appear for some of them the first contacts with civilians is having some impact.

MANASTERLI: Yes, I personally was kind -- was skeptical about what were the causes for us actually to come over here, but now that I am here and I talk to locals and I see what their lives have been like and what kind of oppression they've been witnessing, you know, the reason is -- you know, doesn't really make -- whatever reasons it was that brought us over here doesn't really matter anymore.

VINCI: Sergeant Manasterli says his unit is telling the Iraqis Saddam days are numbered, although it will take a little bit longer for them to believe it.

Alessio Vinci, CNN, with the U.S. Marines in central Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, from central Iraq, we go back to Baghdad where, for the last half-hour or so, we have been watching a drone -- some sort of a drone, according to Lebanese Broadcasting, flying over the City of Baghdad. We no longer have the live picture, but we'll show you the tape picture.

And watching it as well at home is retired Major General Don Clark -- Don Shepperd who actually called this in. So we want to get him on the phone, as well as retired General Clark.

General Shepperd, you saw the pictures. What do you think it is?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, it looks to me like a Hunter drone, Anderson. It appears to be. It's used by the Army. Very likely launched -- launched from someplace like Baghdad International Airport, since we seem to have that under control.

It's got about, oh, I think eight to 10 hours of endurance. So it can stay up quite a long time. Operates at medium altitude and has sensors on it that allow it to take pictures and perhaps other sensors as well, and then datalink goes back to a control center.

It's meant for reconnaissance, obviously, to maintain constant surveillance over the battlefield or over an area such as Baghdad. It enables the Army to keep watch and out ahead of any ground thrusts that they would be pushing forward into the city.

COOPER: And, General Clark, this would clearly be one of the great advantages of holding a major strategic position like the airport that you can run something like this drone out of it if, in fact, that's where this drone is from.

CLARK: That's exactly right because this is a relatively slow drone. I mean it might take three or four -- three hours or so to fly this up from Kuwait, whereas if you hold this airfield right here, you can fly it right from here. You get the full use of it for its entire flight time.

COOPER: General Shepperd, the -- we were talking about how the information from the drone would be used. What's your sense of where the information being captured from the cameras that are believed to be on board, whatever else is believed to be on board -- where does it go?

SHEPPERD: Well, it goes to a command center, and I'll be very vague about that, but, basically, it will be datalinked to a command center that will process it and get it right to the command authority.

Now this Hunter is just one piece of an intelligence -- what we call an ISR network, Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance, that goes all the way from satellites in space to high flyers like Global Hawk and the U-2 down to the Predator and the Hunter, is the lower of these.

It's very vulnerable to anti-aircraft fire. I wouldn't be surprised at all to see this one or others get shot down because it operates at lower altitudes and very slow airspeed, so the fact that it's not being shot at right now, at least we can't see it in daytime, doesn't mean it's not a hot target.

But, again, it goes to a -- some type of command headquarters and a prepared shelter that has the ability to take what it's got in the way of visual format and reduce it to something that a commander can use looking over the battlefield.

COOPER: General Clark, I think a lot -- you know, we've all sort of become used to seeing Predators, and we all know the name by now, especially after the conflict in Afghanistan, and you used these in Kosovo not -- probably not as many people knew about them in the civilian population back then.

The first time you -- I mean, it's easy to become blase about this kind of thing, but the first time you saw them and you saw the kind of intelligence -- real-time, battlefield, tactical intelligence that you could get, what went through your mind?

CLARK: Well, we -- we know about these things from the time -- back in the '80s, we began to try to get these into the United States Army.

And, believe it or not, developing an unmanned aerial vehicle is more difficult than it would -- you would think. Oh, it's just a model airplane. You just put a camera in it. It's not easy. And a lot of developmental work has gone in for a period of 15 years to produce something like this Hunter.

This is actually a copy of another Air Force's system we brought into the United States and developed. The Predator was developed by our own people. The Predator flies higher, has a little bit greater range. We first used the Predator in peacekeeping operations over Bosnia in the mid to late 1990s. So it was even before the Kosovo campaign.

These Hunters were purchased by the United States Army and developed as a corps and division asset. After we saw it used at the corps level, it was clear it had to be organized so that even lower- level commanders could have access to this imagery because it's so timely and it's so valuable in terms of actual tactical direction of the battle.

And so I think that, you know, every commander at every level would love to have his own unmanned aerial vehicle, from platoon leaders to company commanders on up. There's a real scramble to get the right aerial platform with the right optics and the right downlink. It's a huge advantage to have these assets.

COOPER: General Shepperd, when you -- I don't know if you were -- you heard before General Clark sort of describing this as a drone out looking for trouble, pointing out that, in a sense, coalition forces would love this drone to be fired upon because then the position of the anti-aircraft gunner is readily identifiable.

Is it -- is it a question of it being fired at, or would -- would the aircraft gunner have to turn on their radar in order to get an effective shot, and I guess that making it all the more vulnerable to counterattack?

SHEPPERD: Well, this is not a -- this is not a drone that you'd shoot out with a radar-guided missile. It's got a very low radar cross section.

And General Clark is right. He's looking for any kind of trouble out there. He's looking for AAA sites, for missile sites, for artillery, for anything that might be assembling in the way of weapons of mass destruction launch, mainly artillery. So he is just out there looking for trouble.

And General Clark's right. If somebody shoots that, it reveals their position for possible later strike.

But it's just useful in so many ways, and it's one of the major advantages that coalition forces have, their ability to see what other people can't see, to see trouble ahead of their forces, and to integrate that with weapons that can attack it, either from the air or artillery or whatever. It's a tremendous asset.

COOPER: General Clark, we -- we heard Ken Pollack talking about the large number of anti-aircraft batteries believed to be -- or at least at one time in the City of Baghdad itself. Even if it's identified where these sites are, they've got to be hard to take out because, from what we know from past experience with Iraq's forces, they're integrated all throughout civilian areas.

CLARK: Well, once they're identified, they can be taken out, either on the thunder runs by the fire from Bradleys and tanks, or you can take them out with a precision-guided munition from something like an A10 Warthog that's carrying a Maverick missile with about a 300- pound warhead. It will go right into that anti-aircraft site. It will take it out very precisely.

Of course, if they're right there on top of an apartment building and there's Iraqi civilians there, you might not want to do that. You might want to use another means. You might be able to use a 30- millimeter gun in a low-angle approach off an A10 to go after it.

But, in general, our Air Force pilots -- historically, we don't like to dual with anti-aircraft guns. We only do that when we're really safe and really secure. But, now that we're putting ground troops in, it's going to be important to get the anti-aircraft guns, if we can identify them, because they can be turned on our ground troops, and they are very heavy.

A 30-millimeter -- 37-millimeter anti-aircraft gun is a very effective weapon against our troops, if it's employed against our troops, so we want to take them out.

COOPER: All right. We've got to take a break here.

General Clark, as always, thanks very much.

Major General Don Shepperd.

Hey, thanks so much for calling in. I know you're at home or wherever you were just watching this and called in with the information. Appreciate it. Always good to talk to you.

We're going to take a short break. We're going to come back with headlines and a look at the big picture of what's going on on the ground. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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