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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

U.S. Controls All Highways In, Out of Baghdad

Aired April 06, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Let's begin NEWSNIGHT with a look at the major events of the day, day 19 of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Early in the day, U.S. forces announced they now control all the highways in and out of Baghdad. And for the second straight day, conducted reconnaissance raids into the heart of the Iraqi capitol.

CNN's Walter Rodgers, embedded with the Army's 3rd Division 7th Cavalry confirmed heavy losses suffered by the Iraqi forces in and around Baghdad.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Iraqis are just out matched and overmatched here. Within a 24 hour period, 7th Cavalry killed over 400 Iraqis. I think anytime the Iraqis put their heads up now, they get shot, they killed. We have seen many Iraqi tank units simply parking their tanks in groves of trees, parking their armored vehicles in groves of trees, and then taking off.

COOPER: A symbolic sign, the first U.S. military plane landed at the newly named Baghdad International Airport, just hours after the Iraqi information minister again denied the airport had been secured by U.S. troops.

MOHAMMED SAEED SAHAF, IRAQ INFORMATION MINISTER: When we stopped pounding them, they pushed some of their units towards Saddam International Airport. We noticed that those units only for be filmed and for propaganda or anti propaganda purposes.

COOPER: Signs of life, the daily call to prayer, now mixed with sounds of war. The daily bombing of Baghdad.

Iraqis continued to flee the capitol, despite a new message said to be from Saddam Hussein calling for resistance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator) From Saddam Hussein to all of the fighters of the Iraqi armed forces, peace be upon you. When it is in hard or a difficult for any member to join their own respective unit, they can link up with any other unit and they will be counted as such until further notice.

COOPER: CNN's Martin Savidge, embedded with the 1st Battalion 7th Marines, reported house to house searches for Iraqi fighters in suburbs southeast of Baghdad. MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A very poignant scene at one point. The cameraman Scott McWhinney found, as these Marines moved in on a house. They came across this one family. It's through voice and through hand gestures that they tried to get them to come out of the house. And they do, but it's clear you can tell the family is terrified in the presence of these Marines.

COOPER: On the northern front, allied Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, now an hour's drive from Baghdad, still face still Iraqi resistance. CNN cameraman Chris Matlock shot these pictures of an F- 14 dropping a laser guided bomb on an Iraqi position near Debaga in northern Iraq.

A couple miles away, another U.S. war plane mistakenly bombed Kurdish Peshmerga fighters fighting in a convoy, killing at least 18, and wounding 45.

CNN's Jane Arraf reported from the scene.

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was an absolutely horrific scene. A bomb dropped on this convoy, injuring more than 45 people, including seriously injuring the brother of what people refer to as the president of the regional government here. His son was also wounded.

Among the dead was a BBC translator as well. The BBC traveling in that convoy. Altogether it was truly a horrific scene.

COOPER: To the south, after days of heavy fighting, British forces finally rode into Iraq's second largest city, Basra.

British Desert Rats faced light resistance, but have not yet taken full control. CNN's Diana Muriel reported.

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anti tanks rolled into the center of Basra. The people came out to stare, some to wave and to give the thumbs up.

COOPER: Securing the southern part of the country, however, remains difficult. More mines are discovered every day. These were found close to Basra.

At last count, 110 coalition service members have died in Operation Iraqi Freedom; 80 of them American, 30 British. And today, word that NBC correspondent David Bloom died on the frontlines of natural causes. He was embedded with the U.S 3rd Infantry Division near Baghdad. He's survived by his wife Melanie and three daughters.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Among Baghdad's five million residents, there appears to be growing uncertainly about who is in charge and frankly, whom to believe.

Our Nic Robertson is on the border between Jordan and Iraq. He joins us now - Nic? NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Anderson, there is in some ways a real disconnect in Baghdad at the moment. I talked to a source who had been using -- who's living in the center of Baghdad and asked him earlier in the evening if they'd heard that the coalition had landed a C-130 at the Baghdad International Airport. And he said he had absolutely no idea.

That seems to typify the two different pictures that are emerging. They've got picture from inside the city that our sources tell about and seeing high numbers of armed militiamen on the streets. They're not only the Republican Guard, but Fedayeen fighters, Baath Party fighters, all very heavily armed. That's the comment of -- a particular comment of all the sources that I'm talking to. They're just surprised that the -- sheer numbers of fighters on the streets in Baghdad and the apparent determination of those fighters to continue to fight.

Certainly, when they asked them, that is the response that they're getting. So on the one hand, you have that picture inside the city. And on the periphery where the coalition forces are, we see these pictures of the coalition forces going door to door in some areas, destroying Republican Guard strongholds, but inside the city, that's not quite the picture that people are getting. Certainly the information minister trying to paint a different picture. The Iraqi leader calling on Iraqi soldiers who may have lost touch with their units to get back in touch with other army units and continue to fight.

But it seems to be the civilians who are getting caught in the middle of these two sort of differing views, different sites if you will. The civilians say that they're increasingly afraid of the situation. They're running out of water, running out of electricity. They say that they think that they're being caught in the crossfire. They think that the coalition forces are shooting at them. They think that the Iraqi forces are shooting at them.

And certainly, that's a picture portrayed in the hospitals of Baghdad. According to Red Cross spokesmen, at one time during the day, they were over 100 people an hour arriving at one of the city's hospitals close to the frontline. And certainly the hospitals in Baghdad beginning to sort of reach capacity, where they're beginning to lose track of exactly the number of casualties that are arriving there -- Anderson?

COOPER: Nic, you know, for the last two weeks or so, we've heard a lot about these psyops, psychological operations, dropping leaflets, trying to inform Iraqis about the intentions and the actions of coalition forces.

The sources you're talking to in Baghdad, the Iraqis you're talking to, are they getting any information from the U.S.? And if so, do they buy any of it?

ROBERTSON: That's very, very difficult to tell, to be perfectly honest, Anderson. Certainly some people have left the city. And that's a clear indication they're not buying the view of the Iraqi leadership. And certainly the army conscripts and regular army fighters, who have already deserted the frontlines, they're not buying the Iraqi leadership line.

But we -- when we were in Baghdad, and this was two weeks ago, it was very difficult to find somebody who had even heard one of the radio broadcasts that U.S. forces were putting out into the city. It was very difficult to find anyone who'd collected and read one of those leaflets dropped from coalition aircraft.

It seems as if the people inside Baghdad are really trapped. The only view that they're really hearing is that from the Iraqi government. And obviously some of them are choosing not to heed it, but that's the view they're being presented with, Anderson.

COOPER: Nic, I should inform you just so you know, we put up a picture, a live picture of Baghdad. Al-Jazeera's reporting two large explosions heard just a few moments ago in Baghdad. So that's why we put the picture up to see. We can't really see anything from the picture, but we're just sort of waiting to see.

Do you get a sense of how impacted the people you are talking to are by the continuing air strikes, the continuing urban close air support that coalition fighters and bombers are now flying over Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Oh, absolutely. I think the people in Baghdad recognize what's happening to Baghdad is really entering a different level. And yesterday was a good example. A lot more sporadic artillery barrages, bombings during the day.

Not just on the periphery of the city, not just the presidential palaces, not just the government offices, not just the military complex that had been -- complexes that had been struck so many times in the past.

But for an example, a military -- a sports playing field, about three kilometers east of the center of Baghdad, that was the target, areas like that have not been targeted before. Apparently it was believed -- certainly the sources I talked to believed that that potentially there have been some military units congregated in that area. And that's why it was targeted.

And the reason that's happening, there's more fighting and more explosions in different areas of the city is because there's perhaps more fighters moving around in the city, presenting themselves as a target to coalition forces.

And really that is what's increasing the fear among the residents there. It's just becoming increasingly easy for them to get caught up into -- getting caught up in the fighting.

We heard from our sources about outbreaks of small machine -- heavy machine gun fire being heard in the heart of the city. And that's something new as well, Anderson.

COOPER: Central Command also said that Republican Guard units have actually sort of moved into hospitals, mosque area. Have you heard anything of that from people on the ground in Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Our sources haven't been able to confirm that. It's very interesting, because the day before yesterday, the Iraqi ministry of information promised to take journalists to a hospital. This was a hospital quite close to the frontline.

They took them out there twice in the bus that they have. And then in the end, they didn't let them into the hospital. So it's not clear what there weren't supposed to see. Were they not supposed to see military casualties? or were they not supposed to see soldiers in the hospital?

However, those sources do tell us that by and large, the Iraqi military is telling civilians and residents of the city to get out of the areas that are being increasing -- that are becoming increasingly military zones.

So there does seem to be an effort on the one hand to get civilians out of the way. Yet, I remember talking to somebody just before the war began. And he said to me, this was a resident of Baghdad, he said look, if the military puts equipment outside your house, what can you do? There's absolutely nothing you can do unless you leave you house. And really, for some people, that's not just an option, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Nic Robertson on the Jordanian-Iraqi border. Thanks very much, Nic.

We're going to go now to CNN's Walter Rodgers, who's embedded with the 3-7th Cavalry just outside Baghdad.

Walter, what's your situation?

RODGERS: I'm not sure what your question's intended to ask. I've been in Baghdad in the suburbs for about five days now, Anderson. The situation is pretty much as it has been. There's been continuous fighting particularly in the western suburbs, usually by Iraqi irregulars or Fedayeen troops.

If I can address some of the questions you asked Nic Robertson, we've seen the psyops, the psychological operations army units go out just up the road from us, into the Baghdad suburbs. They go out and they call the, you know, residents out of their villages and say we have Iraqi dead lying in the road. Perhaps you'd like to come out and reclaim these Iraqi dead, and give them a proper Islamic funeral, which of course means that they are washed, and then they're taken to the mosque and so forth.

So these psychological operations are working. And there is definite intercourse between the United States army, with which I'm embedded again in the western suburbs of Baghdad, and the Iraqi residence.

How the Iraqis respond, however, is a function of what branch of Islam they subscribe. The Shia Muslims tend to welcome the U.S. soldiers. The Sunnis of which Saddam Hussein's regime tends to be more affiliated, and particularly Sunnis who can be pressured by the Fedayeen militants, tend to be more standoffish, more wary -- Anderson?

COOPER: Walter, when we talked about this time last night, you were reporting about continued reconnaissance missions the U.S. was going to be undertaking in Baghdad. What's the assessment of those went?

RODGERS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question?

COOPER: What is the assessment of how the reconnaissance missions that you told us about some 24 hours ago, how did they go?

RODGERS: Well, they get fired on. The Iraqis made guerrilla strikes along the road, particularly at night. Interestingly enough, however, these seem to be diminishing somewhat in intensity and ferocity. The Iraqis increasingly are leaving their tanks and their armored vehicles abandoned, parks in groves of date palm trees, and then just the U.S. army is coming upon these abandoned military vehicles, and then having to destroy them -- Anderson?

COOPER: All right, Walter Rodgers, thanks very much. We'll let you go. We'll talk to you a little bit later on.

When we last saw troops from the 173rd Airborne Division, they were jumping from airplanes into northern Iraq. Their mission, secure an airfield. Well since then, they have moved deeper into hostile territory. Our Thomas Nybo joins us now with more -- Thomas?

THOMAS NYBO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You spent any time with these paratroopers, and what you learn is they like the element of surprise. They like to jump out of airplanes, surprise the opposition. And that's exactly what they did tonight.

What has happened is you have Iraqi soldiers on one side of the green line, U.S. forces on the other. Now coalition airplanes have been coming in and just bombing these guys non-stop, the Iraqi soldiers. But the problem is these Iraqi soldiers, as I understand it, have escape tunnels. They can see the planes coming. They can see the contrails. And they get out of the way before the bombs start falling.

So what happened tonight was the 173rd Airborne, they hooked up a couple of Howitzer cannons to humvees. They drove about nine miles from the position of the Iraqi soldiers. And they just essentially unleashed a barrage of heavy artillery.

In about a span of about an hour, they fired 50 105 millimeter shells. And as I understand it, Iraqi soldiers, about 500 of them, bunkered down in fighting positions, had no way of knowing what was coming. So they were essentially rained upon with heavy artillery.

COOPER: Thomas, we are looking at this new video, which just came in, of some of these Howitzers blasting away. Has there been any assessment of what sort of damage was done to the Iraqi forces you mentioned? NYBO: The early word is it was a very successful attack. Here's basically how it works. The 173rd is working in conjunction with Special Forces. Special Forces actually had a guy on the ground with night vision goggles. And so what would happen is they'd fire one Howitzer, the guy, the Special Forces guy would see where it landed. He would radio back. They would adjust the Howitzer, and then they would just essentially empty their ammunition on these spots.

And the early word is it was a very successful attack. Daybreak is just coming now. And they say within the next 12 to 14 hours, they should have a full assessment of the situation.

COOPER: Thomas, as far as you know, is this the first time the 173rd had been using these Howitzers on these Iraqi positions?

NYBO: It's an interesting story, because essentially the first time -- this is the first time that the 173rd has fired on an enemy of the United States in more than three decades. So this is the first time they've really entered the game at this level. And yes, these are the first shots, as I understand it, that the 173rd has taken on opposition forces.

COOPER: Thomas, what sort of level of cooperation are they getting from the Kurdish Peshmerga fighters? I know when the 173rd landed at the airfield, they were assisted early on. Is that still going on?

NYBO: The presence is very strong. You see Peshmerga everywhere. In fact, I was amazed when I arrived on the airfield at night, you'd see these Peshmerga fighters walking around with AK-47s. It's very convivial.

Now I know that there has not been much interaction. I know that the U.S. has been a little standoffish about bringing the Kurds into the fight. So I think they're in sort of a holding pattern there.

So the relations are good, but I don't see much fighting, at least from perspective being done by the Kurds.

COOPER: All right, Thomas Nybo with 173rd Airborne Division, thanks very much, Thomas. We'll check in with you a little bit later on.

We're going to take a short break. A full night ahead of us coming up. We've seen the gas masks. We've seen the antidote, but no sign yet of chemical weapons. Is the war making it easier or harder to find weapons of mass destruction if they do in fact exist? A former U.N. inspector joins us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the war in Iraq. We want to get an update now on the coalition military campaign. We're going to check in with Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, not at quite as a dramatic day today, but nevertheless, the United States continues to consolidate its position around Baghdad, moving troops up from the south and also from the southeast and the southwest, to essentially encircle the city.

Now the U.S. says that this is not a, you know, a foolproof cordon around the city, but nevertheless, they have isolated the key roads. And they have checkpoints set up. And they're using aerial reconnaissance to make sure that key members of the regime are not able to get out of the city, and that they can monitor any major military movements.

The U.S. today is continuing to say it's enjoying some considerable success, but a warning from the vice chairman of the joint chiefs, General Peter Pace today, that there still could be some hard fighting in the days ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. PETER PACE, JOINT CHIEFS VICE CHAIRMAN: There's no doubt that it is still possible that we will have some significant combat ahead of us. And I would never want anyone to think that that is not possible.

On the other hand, I am very comfortable and very confident that the soldiers and Marines who we might call on to do that, have been trained exceptionally well, and that they will be equally efficient in the city, as they have been in the countryside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Now Pentagon sources say the U.S. military will continue to conduct what it's calling armored raids into Baghdad. That's where U.S. tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles roar through the city streets. The idea is to both put on a show of force, and also to lure Iraqi troops into combat, so that the United States can inflict more casualties.

The Pentagon says it doesn't know exactly how many Iraqis it's killed in the last day or so, but one estimate is between 2,000 and 3,000. The U.S. also says it may be also launching commando style raids against leadership targets if it has sufficient intelligence about the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein or any of his inner circle -- Anderson?

COOPER: Jamie, yesterday we learned about the shift in coalition air strategy using a sort of an ongoing fly-overs of Baghdad, also being able to call in for close urban combat that supports supporting troops on the ground. How is that going? Is there any word on that from the Pentagon?

MCINTYRE: Well by all accounts, it's going pretty well. You know, basically what they do is they stack the planes up, you know, kind of like rush hour traffic over the skies over Baghdad. That way as soon as the plane is out of fuel and needs to go back, there's one right behind it to provide basically instant close air support.

And then the troops on the ground can immediately call in a plane to direct a satellite or laser-guided bomb on a target, as they're advancing.

Today, for instance, some troops from the 3rd Army Division actually took over a presidential palace complex, not far from the airport, which they say was being used by the special Republican Guard. And in that engagement, they destroyed more than 60 military vehicles, including some civilian vehicles have been converted to military use, and also destroyed three Iraqi T-72 tanks.

So the combination of air and ground together has been really proving devastating for the Iraqi forces.

COOPER: All right, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks very much. We'll check in with you a little bit later.

We're going to check in right now with our CNN military analyst, General Wesley Clark, for his take on day 19 of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

General Clark in Little Rock, Arkansas, good evening. How's it going?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Hi, Anderson.

COOPER: What's your perception of how the war is going today?

CLARK: I think it's going very well. I think the advance of the -- toward Baghdad was successful. I think right now, the major roads have been blocked off. We're conducting probes into the city. We're identifying centers of resistance. We're striking enemy fighters. We're taking out headquarters. We're demoralizing them. We're preventing their reinforcement.

This is a matter of a few days in my view before this resistance collapses.

COOPER: General Peter Pace was very careful today to not use the word "surrounded," to say that the city has been surrounded. Why so careful with the language?

CLARK: Well, because in actual fact, there's probably lots of ways to get in and outside of Baghdad, but the major roads are blocked. And this is part of the administration or part of the military strategy is to bring in more forces. And they are coming in right now, the 4th Infantry Division's 1st Brigade should be up in just a few days.

The 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment was flown in. Hopefully, some forces are coming in through the -- with the 173rd and will come down from the north. And all of this, if the Iraqis in Baghdad don't surrender, will ensure that there's a much more robust presence all the way around the city. But right now, there isn't. And that's what General Pace wants to make very clear that people understand that this is not like a ring of soldiers physically surrounding the city. This is major entrances and exits blocked.

COOPER: You mentioned the 4th Infantry Brigade. That of course the brigade that was supposed to come through Turkey originally to form a northern front, wasn't able to do that. They brought their equipment around. They were off loading in Kuwait over the last week or so.

Any sense of when they may arrive in Baghdad? And also, what do they bring with them? I mean, I've heard their -- they're the most high tech unit in the U.S. military. What does that mean?

CLARK: Well, the full division is -- has been modernized with the latest equipment. So it's got the M1-A2 tanks. It's got the upgraded Bradleys. And they've got a position location reporting system that's called the battle command system brigade and below, where they track the locations electronically of the vehicles.

And so, what this means is that soldiers don't have to report on such and such where are you. It's all done and shown on like a laptop computer inside the vehicle.

And so they've got a lot of information that's flowing in digital form between the vehicles. So this gives them enhanced maneuverability. It improves their safety, because it reduces the chance for friendly fire incident, and it lets them get updates on the enemy situation electronically.

So it's a very powerful technology. When they come in, they'll have several tank battalions. They'll have several infantry battalions mounted in Bradleys. And so, it's essentially a mirror image organization of the 3rd Infantry, except they've got a later generation of equipment.

COOPER: If you were war gaming this out, and you were playing the role of an Iraqi general, what would you do now? I mean, would you sort of be looking to get an exit strategy, to find one of those roads that doesn't have U.S. troops on it, and take off?

CLARK: Well, I think the Iraqi generals should surrender. I support General Pace in saying that. I mean, there is, in my view, there's no reasonable possibility that any of them could believe they could win against the combat power in determination of the coalition.

But assuming that they're under some political control and forced to fight, then the only fighting strategy is to work for three things: delay the U.S. advance into Baghdad as long as possible, seek to inflict as many casualties as you can on the United States forces, and force the American forces to destroy as much infrastructure and kill as many civilians as possible, so that you have a victory that at least in the Iraqi terms shows that they put up a strong fight and are worthy of support from other Arab countries.

And that would preserve for Saddam Hussein, assuming he would survive, and the Baath Party would survive, that would preserve some opportunity for him to fight underground against an American presence. COOPER: All right, General Clark, a lot more to talk about. We'll call upon your expertise a lot in the next hour or two. We'll check back in with you in a moment.

The 82nd Airborne Division has been fighting the Fedayeen militia in central Iraq the last few days. Their commander, General Charles Swannach, talks about the danger of urban fighting and his sledgehammer approach to combat.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. CHARLES SWANNACH, COMMANDER, 82nd AIRBORNE: The 3rd Infantry Division, part of 5th Corps, has attacked very, very rapidly up into the outskirts of Baghdad. And we have been responsible to come in behind them, and mop any resistance. So we're maintaining the ground lines of communication so that fuel trucks, ammo trucks, rations, water, can all go forward to the forward elements.

Urban warfare is a very difficult, probably more difficult in terms of bringing to bear all the combat power a unit might have, because of the combined spaces that you have to go and fight. To bring in your artillery, so you don't create collateral damage, to go ahead and bring in air power, to go ahead and accomplish the target. And then get the paratroopers that we have in this division close to go ahead and do the close battle combat drill, and clear buildings, and clear streets.

I see that the battle in Baghdad will very similar in terms of the combined spaces, where you go ahead and apply combat power. It's a very difficult fight, but coalition forces trained very, very much at this. And it's right in our bread and butter type drills that we do.

So conventional forces will go ahead and occupy positions. However, when they're confronted with overwhelming combat power that we have, normally we can break their defenses very, very quickly. Their paramilitary forces, I'm a little bit surprised at the fanatical, dedicated commitment to killing Americans.

The asymmetric threat or the paramilitary threat in suicide, kamikaze type bombers is something that our troopers are not all that well versed in, but they can make the right decisions.

Shock and Awe at possibly Air Force level's different from the Shock and Awe associated with a paratrooper trying to take -- cross that bridge into Samawa (ph) and seize the foothold on the far side.

Every level we've got in our military, I think we have awesome combat power. That's a very difficult issue in how we prosecute the fight to minimize collateral damage. I think we're doing a pretty good job at that. Identifying whether or not civilians are actual combatants or not is very difficult. And that's what our soldiers have to be attuned to.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE) during the Burma campaign said use a sledge to cross your walnut. And I try to translate that same philosophy to our paratroopers here in the division that are leaders. And I try to tell them this is not a football game where we've got 11 on one side and 11 on the other side. That's not how we fight this fight. We use overwhelming combat power to destroy the enemy and accomplish our mission.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: They certainly do. We just received a report in. British military officials are saying that they believe the notorious Iraqi general, the man often called Chemical Ali, General Ali Hassan Al-Magid, was probably killed in an air strike on his -- one of his compounds in Basra. They say probably killed. They have not yet positively identified him. They have positively identified his bodyguard as among those killed in the home. And he, of course, Saddam Hussein's cousin, nicknamed Chemical Ali, accused of gassing Kurd villages. So there you have it. Those are some file footage of him.

Coalition troops have found chemical suits, gas masks, and nerve agent antidotes. We know that, but so far, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction.

Joining us to talk more about that, the search for banned weapons, is David Albright, former inspector with the International Atomic Energy Agency.

David, thanks for being with us. Does it surprise you that nothing has so far been found?

DAVID ALBRIGHT, FORMER IAEA INSPECTOR: I'm a little surprised. I would've thought, if nothing else, some rocket casings that could have held chemical weapons would have been found.

But we are early in the process. And we'll have to wait and see. I mean, many sites need to be visited, and a lot work needs to be done. It's very important to get to the people who used to be in these programs.

There's thousands of scientists that were involved. And so, I think we're still early in the process, but I am a little surprised.

COOPER: And coalition forces have been very quick to point out that this is not their main priority right now. Obviously, there are battles to be fought and won before serious investigation...

ALBRIGHT: That's right.

COOPER: ...is done. The process that is underway, though, I mean we've heard about specialized units, which are out there looking for the stuff. How difficult is it for them?

ALBRIGHT: Well, it's a dangerous job. I mean, let's -- for example, they may have to go into a bunker that they think is holding only conventional weaponry, and it may be that they -- it could hold chemical or biological weapons.

I mean, Iraq had a big job to try to hide everything from the inspectors. And it may have nixed chemical and biological weapons in with conventional weapons.

And they may not be well marked. So I think the people who are looking in these sites have to be very careful and prepared for the worst.

COOPER: When you heard those reports about the chemical suits being found, about the atropine being found in various locations. I think there were some Nasiriya, other cities as well, did a red flag go up for you? Or is there an explanation that might justify why they had those?

ALBRIGHT: Yes, you had -- it has to make you more suspicious. And it seems to be an indicator. But it's by no means a smoking gun. I mean, the Iraqi troops have been trained for probably 15, 20 years to use chemical weapons and to be on the receiving end of chemical weapons. And so, they -- they are -- they have to be indoctrinated and equipped to deal with that contingency.

So I think it's to be expected, but I don't think it's a smoking gun. And I think it's part of the reason why people really want to find the weapons themselves.

COOPER: All right David Albright, I'm sorry it's so short tonight, but it's always good to talk to you. Appreciate you coming in.

ALBRIGHT: Okay.

COOPER: Thanks very much.

ALBRIGHT: Thank you.

COOPER: We've got a lot to cover in the next well, four hours or so. Just ahead, the battle for Basra, British troops took a big step today, but it was it big enough to pacify a city of more than a million? That is Iraq's second largest city after all. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, the war and its aftermath will be on the agenda tomorrow when President Bush meets with British Prime Minister Tony Blair in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

CNN White House correspondent Chris Burns is here with a preview -- Chris?

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. The president having come back from his Camp David retreat from over the weekend, spending the night here at the White House, before he leaves on Monday to go to Belfast, to meet with Prime Minister Tony Blair, and Burdia (ph) Hurn of Ireland, there will be talking about trying to jump start the peace process in northern Ireland, as well as in the Middle East.

But they'll also be talking, of course, about Iraq. And topping the agenda, really, is how to replace Saddam Hussein's regime with some kind of a civil administration.

Now they would like to start out with an office of reconstruction and humanitarian assistance. That is lead by a former U.S. general, Jay Garner. However, he's put his press conference on Monday on hold, pending further information. That is that a lot of issues have to be worked out.

That authority will be shifting power over to an interim Iraqi authority, but who's going to be in that? Well, how many exiles will be in there?

Ahmed Shallaby (ph) is the head of the Iraqi National Congress. The Pentagon and others have been pushing for him to be in there, and even possibly to head the show. But there are others that are people within Iraq who some believe should be also in it. So what kind of a mix should there be? Very, very interesting.

Also, what kind of a U.N. role should there be? Here's Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: If I could paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, of the Iraqis, by the Iraqis, for the Iraqis. Not to make them a colonial administration or a U.N. administration or run in any way by foreigners.

But it's going to be a partnership of the coalition countries. The U.N. has an important role to play in that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNS: What it all comes down to, however, is how do you avoid the image of a two nation occupying force? How much power do you have to give to the U.N. to try to attract other international support, assistance, money, what have you? Big questions.

The National Security Adviser, Condoleezza Rice, has made an unannounced trip to Moscow. She's there trying to mend fences with the Russians, who are very much against this war, but she'd also like to gain some support and try to -- trying to rebuild Iraq. U.S. trying to rebuild this coalition, along with Tony Blair, who's pushing much harder than President Bush for U.N. involvement, to try to show that it is truly a multinational effort in Iraq after Saddam Hussein -- Anderson.

COOPER: And that certainly seems to be an area of big disagreement between British Prime Minister Tony Blair and President Bush what the role the U.N. should play. So it will be interesting over the next two days to see what comes out of the Belfast meetings.

Chris Burns, thanks. We'll check in with you in a little while. Moving on, however, right now, the latest statement attributed to Saddam Hussein gave instructions to Iraqi forces. An Iraqi TV announcer read the statement earlier today. It said if any Iraqi fighter was unable to join a unit, he could join another unit of the same kind. U.S. military officials have reported some Iraqi military units have been wiped out or melted into the general population.

Meanwhile, the debate still rages, is Saddam Hussein still alive? Or was he killed in the so-called decapitation strike more than two weeks ago? Our Wolf Blitzer asked General Peter Pace, vice chairman of the joint chiefs, for his opinion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PACE: Don't know if he's alive or dead. I do know that the night that we attacked the location that we thought he was, that we had very, very good intelligence, corroborated by several sources.

Since that time, those same sources have not shown any indication that he's alive. So if he is alive, he is proving himself to be one of the world's worst generals. And if he's dead, he's dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, with General Pace's comments in mind, we want to talk about the implications of a coalition victory without capturing or killing Saddam Hussein. Would it be a victory?

Joining us from Washington is former congressman Steve Solarz. He served for 18 years on the House International Affairs Committee. Currently, he's vice chair of International Crisis Group. Representative Solarz, thanks very much for being with us.

STEPHEN SOLARZ, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Great to be with you.

COOPER: Is is possible to have victory without Saddam Hussein dead or captured?

SOLARZ: It would be emotionally satisfying and politically desirable if Saddam were captured or killed. It would also satisfy the imperatives of justice. But I don't think it's absolutely essential for the achievement of our objectives.

Stripped of state power, there are -- there is very little that Saddam can do to work his wicked will. And so, I think we can claim victory if we bring the regime down, if we get rid of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and if we create the basis for the establishment of a broadly based legitimate Iraqi government which has the acceptance of the Iraqi people.

COOPER: How can that be, though? I mean, if part of this war in Iraq is beyond -- is beyond just the actual -- I mean, the importance of it goes beyond just Iraq, and it's supposed to send a message, some have said in the administration, to other countries in the region, bringing Saddam Hussein into some sort of accountability would seem to be part and parcel of that?

SOLARZ: That is certainly an objective. And I hope we can achieve it. It's hard for me to believe that Saddam will be able to escape this fate, even if he were somehow or other to slip out of Baghdad, I can't imagine there are many countries that would be willing to take him in.

But if at the end of the day, he does disappear, it seems to me there's very little he can do to create further problems for the Iraqi people or for that matter, the United States. He will no longer have possession of weapons of mass destruction. He will no longer command a massive apparatus of repression. He will no longer be in a position to go to war against neighboring countries.

Without state power, Saddam Hussein is nothing. This is quite a contrast, I should say, to Osama bin Laden, whose death or capture I think is essential in the war on terrorism, because Osama bin Laden does serve as a kind of inspiration for this loosely affiliated network of terrorist groups that he helped to put together. He provides financing to these organizations and direction as well.

So long as Osama bin Laden is alive, he can clearly threaten the United States. But without state power, there's virtually nothing Saddam can do to work his wicked will.

COOPER: After the fall of apartheid in South Africa, they -- the new South African government held these truth and reconciliation meetings that went on. And they were extraordinarily cathartic, a lot of South Africans said, for the nation.

Do you see something that needs to happen in a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq of similar weights? You know, we've just had this report just from the British saying they believe Chemical Ali may be dead, may be killed in this coalition strike. Is it important in your mind to get some of these leaders, some of these people who by all accounts, committed atrocities in the past, and bring them justice?

SOLARZ: I think it's absolutely essential. What Iraq needs is not simply a truth in reconciliation commission. That will be important. But it also needs a process of de-Baathification, similar to the process of de-Nazificiation which Germany underwent after the end of the second World War.

And I think it also needs war crimes trials to hold those top Iraqi leaders like Chemical Ali, who have engaged in genocidal behavior in the past, accountable for their dastardly deeds.

COOPER: Representative Stephen Solarz, appreciate you joining us tonight. It was interesting. Always good to talk to you. Thanks very much.

SOLARZ: Thank you.

COOPER: When we come back, our coverage continues. We're going to look at war crimes. What will happen in a post Saddam Hussein Iraq, as you look at a live picture of Baghdad. 6:46 a.m., a new day about to begin.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, when British troops discovered hundreds of boxes of human remains stored in a warehouse, it was assumed they were victims of Saddam Hussein's regime.

Our Richard Blystone went to the site in Basra, filed this report.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD BLYSTONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It had been billed as a helicopter trip, a rarity. The lure, news reports about the possible evidence of atrocities by the Baghdad regime.

The military warned reporters they'd have to stay back from a crime investigation. The merciless crushing of a southern Iraqi uprising 12 years ago is well known. But visual proof now of the regime's brutality would bolster the U.S. and British government's case for removing it.

The buses were the first indication this might not be the big one. Finally, southwest of the battle for Basra, the scene, an artillery complex, now occupied by British troops, what might have been a prison. These words mean "my life is suffering, I have nothing left."

And piles and piles of documents, records of these dead, 408 of them, mostly Iraqi, the rest Iranian. There's a U.S. exploitation team here. It looks for evidence of Baghdad wrongdoing, like weapons of mass destruction.

COL. RICHARD MCPHEE, U.S. ARMY: Exploitation is more than just WMD. It's in a case just like here, why we have a -- this team that we brought out. And that we were here to see if there were any abuses conducted.

BLYSTONE: The forensic investigation, we're told, is going on. The remains themselves ask a question. If this was a murder camp, would the killers dig up the bodies, put them in bags and keep careful records of them?

DAN WALTERS, C.W.O., U.S. ARMY: The indications are is that this was a makeshift morgue. This facility was used in the process of repatriating soldiers from Iran and Iraq back to their families.

BLYSTONE: The remains, we're told, date from the 1980 to '88 Iran-Iraq war, which killed hundreds of thousands on both sides.

Before this war, the two countries had been periodically exchanging prisoners and remains. These will in time be processed, and with honor, returned to their families. Meanwhile, this day, a sad substitute for a gun salute.

Richard Blystone, CNN, near Basra, Iraq. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well talk of atrocities surrounding the morgue may have been just that, talk. But it is still an accepted notion that members of Saddam Hussein's regime will be brought up on war crime charges. The question is how, when and by whom?

Joining me with more on this, former ambassador for war crimes, David Scheffer.

Ambassador Scheffer, thanks for being with us. It is a difficult thing to do this. How would this work? Once the war is over, how would the process of trying to bring people up on war crimes charges work?

DAVID SCHEFFER, FORMER AMBASSADOR FOR WAR CRIMES: Well, there won't be simply one court to do this. I think you're going to have to have several tiers of courts.

At the very top, for the very senior leadership, if they survive this intervention, there would be, I hope, an international war crimes tribunal set up by the Security Council, with all the power that can be invested in that tribunal by the Security Council because some of these individuals may escape from Iraq. And you're going to need that power to make sure that they're apprehended and brought to justice.

And it's also important to remember that so many of the crimes committed by this regime were not just against the Iraqi people. The predominant number were, but there were also victims not only Iran, but also the United States Army and Air Force, as well as of course Kuwait. So there are very significant international crimes masterminded by the Iraqi leadership, that will have to be brought to account.

And then you'd have a second tier of courts, I think military tribunals, that would deal with the war crimes that we're seeing being committed right now in this conflict, where you'd have mid and low level individuals who do need to be brought to justice for those war crimes.

And then finally, but this will take a long time, the rebuilding of the Iraqi court system to take care of a large number of individuals who, for the last 30 years, have been part of a very, very repressive and criminal regime.

COOPER: I want to bring in also retired general Wesley Clark, just for his comments.

And General Clark, do you see a military role in these war crimes, at least initially?

CLARK: Well, I certainly see a military role in helping to collect the evidence and do the investigation. I would hope that we have international legitimacy for anything that we do. And we would not put the burden strictly on the military to do the kinds of war crime trials we did after World War II. Those were only against high ranking officers. And I think when you go further than this, we should be using other mechanisms.

And I wanted to ask Ambassador Scheffer if I could Anderson, whether he thinks that the failure of the United States to sign up to the international criminal court will in any way hamper our ability to use international legal methods against Iraqi war crimes.

SCHEFFER: Well, general, it may in fact do that, because when we -- if we were to go to the Security Council and seek an ad hoc criminal tribunal for Iraq, it is an awkward moment because we've taken a position opposing the permanent international criminal court, that will be designed for this next century, to take on these kinds of crimes.

And so, it's an awkward situation for the United States to be in. One would hope that we could use this opportunity, quite frankly, to demonstrate our resolve that international justice is an international equity, that it is one in which we need partners, and we need partners through a process that they regard as legitimate.

And in this case, it would be the Security Council. As for the International Criminal Court, you could theoretically make the case that some jurisdiction could fall within that court for the current conflict, and the war crimes that may have been committed during this conflict, but I think we also need to have a structure that looks back 30 years to the entirety of the Iraqi regime's crimes. And that could only be through an ad hoc tribunal.

COOPER: Richard Blystone in his last report sort of made light -- or not light, but sort of call into question well why would they document these kind of things? But I mean, I've been to Tulles (ph) Long Prison in Nam Penh in Cambodia. And the documentation on those war crimes is quite extensive. Do you have any sense of whether or not the Iraqi regime keeps notes of their behavior over the last 30 years or so?

SCHEFFER: Oh, absolutely. There's an enormous amount of evidence. And we certainly spend much of our time during the 1990s making sure that evidence was gathered, that it was translated, put on CD-ROMs. There's an enormous amount of documentary evidence with respect to 30 years worth of atrocity crimes.

And just as with the Nazis, the Iraqis have been very, very diligent in recording it all on paper.

COOPER: All right, David Scheffer, former ambassador for war crimes, and General Clark, thanks, as always.

When we come back, remembering the fallen soldiers of the 507th.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: You are looking at a live picture of Baghdad, where gunfire is sounding. Let's listen in.

We will continue to follow the sights and the sounds the war in Iraq. And we will keep our eye on Baghdad when we return. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired April 6, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Let's begin NEWSNIGHT with a look at the major events of the day, day 19 of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

(voice-over): Early in the day, U.S. forces announced they now control all the highways in and out of Baghdad. And for the second straight day, conducted reconnaissance raids into the heart of the Iraqi capitol.

CNN's Walter Rodgers, embedded with the Army's 3rd Division 7th Cavalry confirmed heavy losses suffered by the Iraqi forces in and around Baghdad.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Iraqis are just out matched and overmatched here. Within a 24 hour period, 7th Cavalry killed over 400 Iraqis. I think anytime the Iraqis put their heads up now, they get shot, they killed. We have seen many Iraqi tank units simply parking their tanks in groves of trees, parking their armored vehicles in groves of trees, and then taking off.

COOPER: A symbolic sign, the first U.S. military plane landed at the newly named Baghdad International Airport, just hours after the Iraqi information minister again denied the airport had been secured by U.S. troops.

MOHAMMED SAEED SAHAF, IRAQ INFORMATION MINISTER: When we stopped pounding them, they pushed some of their units towards Saddam International Airport. We noticed that those units only for be filmed and for propaganda or anti propaganda purposes.

COOPER: Signs of life, the daily call to prayer, now mixed with sounds of war. The daily bombing of Baghdad.

Iraqis continued to flee the capitol, despite a new message said to be from Saddam Hussein calling for resistance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator) From Saddam Hussein to all of the fighters of the Iraqi armed forces, peace be upon you. When it is in hard or a difficult for any member to join their own respective unit, they can link up with any other unit and they will be counted as such until further notice.

COOPER: CNN's Martin Savidge, embedded with the 1st Battalion 7th Marines, reported house to house searches for Iraqi fighters in suburbs southeast of Baghdad. MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: A very poignant scene at one point. The cameraman Scott McWhinney found, as these Marines moved in on a house. They came across this one family. It's through voice and through hand gestures that they tried to get them to come out of the house. And they do, but it's clear you can tell the family is terrified in the presence of these Marines.

COOPER: On the northern front, allied Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, now an hour's drive from Baghdad, still face still Iraqi resistance. CNN cameraman Chris Matlock shot these pictures of an F- 14 dropping a laser guided bomb on an Iraqi position near Debaga in northern Iraq.

A couple miles away, another U.S. war plane mistakenly bombed Kurdish Peshmerga fighters fighting in a convoy, killing at least 18, and wounding 45.

CNN's Jane Arraf reported from the scene.

JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It was an absolutely horrific scene. A bomb dropped on this convoy, injuring more than 45 people, including seriously injuring the brother of what people refer to as the president of the regional government here. His son was also wounded.

Among the dead was a BBC translator as well. The BBC traveling in that convoy. Altogether it was truly a horrific scene.

COOPER: To the south, after days of heavy fighting, British forces finally rode into Iraq's second largest city, Basra.

British Desert Rats faced light resistance, but have not yet taken full control. CNN's Diana Muriel reported.

DIANA MURIEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anti tanks rolled into the center of Basra. The people came out to stare, some to wave and to give the thumbs up.

COOPER: Securing the southern part of the country, however, remains difficult. More mines are discovered every day. These were found close to Basra.

At last count, 110 coalition service members have died in Operation Iraqi Freedom; 80 of them American, 30 British. And today, word that NBC correspondent David Bloom died on the frontlines of natural causes. He was embedded with the U.S 3rd Infantry Division near Baghdad. He's survived by his wife Melanie and three daughters.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Among Baghdad's five million residents, there appears to be growing uncertainly about who is in charge and frankly, whom to believe.

Our Nic Robertson is on the border between Jordan and Iraq. He joins us now - Nic? NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Indeed, Anderson, there is in some ways a real disconnect in Baghdad at the moment. I talked to a source who had been using -- who's living in the center of Baghdad and asked him earlier in the evening if they'd heard that the coalition had landed a C-130 at the Baghdad International Airport. And he said he had absolutely no idea.

That seems to typify the two different pictures that are emerging. They've got picture from inside the city that our sources tell about and seeing high numbers of armed militiamen on the streets. They're not only the Republican Guard, but Fedayeen fighters, Baath Party fighters, all very heavily armed. That's the comment of -- a particular comment of all the sources that I'm talking to. They're just surprised that the -- sheer numbers of fighters on the streets in Baghdad and the apparent determination of those fighters to continue to fight.

Certainly, when they asked them, that is the response that they're getting. So on the one hand, you have that picture inside the city. And on the periphery where the coalition forces are, we see these pictures of the coalition forces going door to door in some areas, destroying Republican Guard strongholds, but inside the city, that's not quite the picture that people are getting. Certainly the information minister trying to paint a different picture. The Iraqi leader calling on Iraqi soldiers who may have lost touch with their units to get back in touch with other army units and continue to fight.

But it seems to be the civilians who are getting caught in the middle of these two sort of differing views, different sites if you will. The civilians say that they're increasingly afraid of the situation. They're running out of water, running out of electricity. They say that they think that they're being caught in the crossfire. They think that the coalition forces are shooting at them. They think that the Iraqi forces are shooting at them.

And certainly, that's a picture portrayed in the hospitals of Baghdad. According to Red Cross spokesmen, at one time during the day, they were over 100 people an hour arriving at one of the city's hospitals close to the frontline. And certainly the hospitals in Baghdad beginning to sort of reach capacity, where they're beginning to lose track of exactly the number of casualties that are arriving there -- Anderson?

COOPER: Nic, you know, for the last two weeks or so, we've heard a lot about these psyops, psychological operations, dropping leaflets, trying to inform Iraqis about the intentions and the actions of coalition forces.

The sources you're talking to in Baghdad, the Iraqis you're talking to, are they getting any information from the U.S.? And if so, do they buy any of it?

ROBERTSON: That's very, very difficult to tell, to be perfectly honest, Anderson. Certainly some people have left the city. And that's a clear indication they're not buying the view of the Iraqi leadership. And certainly the army conscripts and regular army fighters, who have already deserted the frontlines, they're not buying the Iraqi leadership line.

But we -- when we were in Baghdad, and this was two weeks ago, it was very difficult to find somebody who had even heard one of the radio broadcasts that U.S. forces were putting out into the city. It was very difficult to find anyone who'd collected and read one of those leaflets dropped from coalition aircraft.

It seems as if the people inside Baghdad are really trapped. The only view that they're really hearing is that from the Iraqi government. And obviously some of them are choosing not to heed it, but that's the view they're being presented with, Anderson.

COOPER: Nic, I should inform you just so you know, we put up a picture, a live picture of Baghdad. Al-Jazeera's reporting two large explosions heard just a few moments ago in Baghdad. So that's why we put the picture up to see. We can't really see anything from the picture, but we're just sort of waiting to see.

Do you get a sense of how impacted the people you are talking to are by the continuing air strikes, the continuing urban close air support that coalition fighters and bombers are now flying over Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Oh, absolutely. I think the people in Baghdad recognize what's happening to Baghdad is really entering a different level. And yesterday was a good example. A lot more sporadic artillery barrages, bombings during the day.

Not just on the periphery of the city, not just the presidential palaces, not just the government offices, not just the military complex that had been -- complexes that had been struck so many times in the past.

But for an example, a military -- a sports playing field, about three kilometers east of the center of Baghdad, that was the target, areas like that have not been targeted before. Apparently it was believed -- certainly the sources I talked to believed that that potentially there have been some military units congregated in that area. And that's why it was targeted.

And the reason that's happening, there's more fighting and more explosions in different areas of the city is because there's perhaps more fighters moving around in the city, presenting themselves as a target to coalition forces.

And really that is what's increasing the fear among the residents there. It's just becoming increasingly easy for them to get caught up into -- getting caught up in the fighting.

We heard from our sources about outbreaks of small machine -- heavy machine gun fire being heard in the heart of the city. And that's something new as well, Anderson.

COOPER: Central Command also said that Republican Guard units have actually sort of moved into hospitals, mosque area. Have you heard anything of that from people on the ground in Baghdad?

ROBERTSON: Our sources haven't been able to confirm that. It's very interesting, because the day before yesterday, the Iraqi ministry of information promised to take journalists to a hospital. This was a hospital quite close to the frontline.

They took them out there twice in the bus that they have. And then in the end, they didn't let them into the hospital. So it's not clear what there weren't supposed to see. Were they not supposed to see military casualties? or were they not supposed to see soldiers in the hospital?

However, those sources do tell us that by and large, the Iraqi military is telling civilians and residents of the city to get out of the areas that are being increasing -- that are becoming increasingly military zones.

So there does seem to be an effort on the one hand to get civilians out of the way. Yet, I remember talking to somebody just before the war began. And he said to me, this was a resident of Baghdad, he said look, if the military puts equipment outside your house, what can you do? There's absolutely nothing you can do unless you leave you house. And really, for some people, that's not just an option, Anderson.

COOPER: All right, Nic Robertson on the Jordanian-Iraqi border. Thanks very much, Nic.

We're going to go now to CNN's Walter Rodgers, who's embedded with the 3-7th Cavalry just outside Baghdad.

Walter, what's your situation?

RODGERS: I'm not sure what your question's intended to ask. I've been in Baghdad in the suburbs for about five days now, Anderson. The situation is pretty much as it has been. There's been continuous fighting particularly in the western suburbs, usually by Iraqi irregulars or Fedayeen troops.

If I can address some of the questions you asked Nic Robertson, we've seen the psyops, the psychological operations army units go out just up the road from us, into the Baghdad suburbs. They go out and they call the, you know, residents out of their villages and say we have Iraqi dead lying in the road. Perhaps you'd like to come out and reclaim these Iraqi dead, and give them a proper Islamic funeral, which of course means that they are washed, and then they're taken to the mosque and so forth.

So these psychological operations are working. And there is definite intercourse between the United States army, with which I'm embedded again in the western suburbs of Baghdad, and the Iraqi residence.

How the Iraqis respond, however, is a function of what branch of Islam they subscribe. The Shia Muslims tend to welcome the U.S. soldiers. The Sunnis of which Saddam Hussein's regime tends to be more affiliated, and particularly Sunnis who can be pressured by the Fedayeen militants, tend to be more standoffish, more wary -- Anderson?

COOPER: Walter, when we talked about this time last night, you were reporting about continued reconnaissance missions the U.S. was going to be undertaking in Baghdad. What's the assessment of those went?

RODGERS: I'm sorry, I didn't hear your question?

COOPER: What is the assessment of how the reconnaissance missions that you told us about some 24 hours ago, how did they go?

RODGERS: Well, they get fired on. The Iraqis made guerrilla strikes along the road, particularly at night. Interestingly enough, however, these seem to be diminishing somewhat in intensity and ferocity. The Iraqis increasingly are leaving their tanks and their armored vehicles abandoned, parks in groves of date palm trees, and then just the U.S. army is coming upon these abandoned military vehicles, and then having to destroy them -- Anderson?

COOPER: All right, Walter Rodgers, thanks very much. We'll let you go. We'll talk to you a little bit later on.

When we last saw troops from the 173rd Airborne Division, they were jumping from airplanes into northern Iraq. Their mission, secure an airfield. Well since then, they have moved deeper into hostile territory. Our Thomas Nybo joins us now with more -- Thomas?

THOMAS NYBO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You spent any time with these paratroopers, and what you learn is they like the element of surprise. They like to jump out of airplanes, surprise the opposition. And that's exactly what they did tonight.

What has happened is you have Iraqi soldiers on one side of the green line, U.S. forces on the other. Now coalition airplanes have been coming in and just bombing these guys non-stop, the Iraqi soldiers. But the problem is these Iraqi soldiers, as I understand it, have escape tunnels. They can see the planes coming. They can see the contrails. And they get out of the way before the bombs start falling.

So what happened tonight was the 173rd Airborne, they hooked up a couple of Howitzer cannons to humvees. They drove about nine miles from the position of the Iraqi soldiers. And they just essentially unleashed a barrage of heavy artillery.

In about a span of about an hour, they fired 50 105 millimeter shells. And as I understand it, Iraqi soldiers, about 500 of them, bunkered down in fighting positions, had no way of knowing what was coming. So they were essentially rained upon with heavy artillery.

COOPER: Thomas, we are looking at this new video, which just came in, of some of these Howitzers blasting away. Has there been any assessment of what sort of damage was done to the Iraqi forces you mentioned? NYBO: The early word is it was a very successful attack. Here's basically how it works. The 173rd is working in conjunction with Special Forces. Special Forces actually had a guy on the ground with night vision goggles. And so what would happen is they'd fire one Howitzer, the guy, the Special Forces guy would see where it landed. He would radio back. They would adjust the Howitzer, and then they would just essentially empty their ammunition on these spots.

And the early word is it was a very successful attack. Daybreak is just coming now. And they say within the next 12 to 14 hours, they should have a full assessment of the situation.

COOPER: Thomas, as far as you know, is this the first time the 173rd had been using these Howitzers on these Iraqi positions?

NYBO: It's an interesting story, because essentially the first time -- this is the first time that the 173rd has fired on an enemy of the United States in more than three decades. So this is the first time they've really entered the game at this level. And yes, these are the first shots, as I understand it, that the 173rd has taken on opposition forces.

COOPER: Thomas, what sort of level of cooperation are they getting from the Kurdish Peshmerga fighters? I know when the 173rd landed at the airfield, they were assisted early on. Is that still going on?

NYBO: The presence is very strong. You see Peshmerga everywhere. In fact, I was amazed when I arrived on the airfield at night, you'd see these Peshmerga fighters walking around with AK-47s. It's very convivial.

Now I know that there has not been much interaction. I know that the U.S. has been a little standoffish about bringing the Kurds into the fight. So I think they're in sort of a holding pattern there.

So the relations are good, but I don't see much fighting, at least from perspective being done by the Kurds.

COOPER: All right, Thomas Nybo with 173rd Airborne Division, thanks very much, Thomas. We'll check in with you a little bit later on.

We're going to take a short break. A full night ahead of us coming up. We've seen the gas masks. We've seen the antidote, but no sign yet of chemical weapons. Is the war making it easier or harder to find weapons of mass destruction if they do in fact exist? A former U.N. inspector joins us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Welcome back to our continuing coverage of the war in Iraq. We want to get an update now on the coalition military campaign. We're going to check in with Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, not at quite as a dramatic day today, but nevertheless, the United States continues to consolidate its position around Baghdad, moving troops up from the south and also from the southeast and the southwest, to essentially encircle the city.

Now the U.S. says that this is not a, you know, a foolproof cordon around the city, but nevertheless, they have isolated the key roads. And they have checkpoints set up. And they're using aerial reconnaissance to make sure that key members of the regime are not able to get out of the city, and that they can monitor any major military movements.

The U.S. today is continuing to say it's enjoying some considerable success, but a warning from the vice chairman of the joint chiefs, General Peter Pace today, that there still could be some hard fighting in the days ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. PETER PACE, JOINT CHIEFS VICE CHAIRMAN: There's no doubt that it is still possible that we will have some significant combat ahead of us. And I would never want anyone to think that that is not possible.

On the other hand, I am very comfortable and very confident that the soldiers and Marines who we might call on to do that, have been trained exceptionally well, and that they will be equally efficient in the city, as they have been in the countryside.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MCINTYRE: Now Pentagon sources say the U.S. military will continue to conduct what it's calling armored raids into Baghdad. That's where U.S. tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles roar through the city streets. The idea is to both put on a show of force, and also to lure Iraqi troops into combat, so that the United States can inflict more casualties.

The Pentagon says it doesn't know exactly how many Iraqis it's killed in the last day or so, but one estimate is between 2,000 and 3,000. The U.S. also says it may be also launching commando style raids against leadership targets if it has sufficient intelligence about the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein or any of his inner circle -- Anderson?

COOPER: Jamie, yesterday we learned about the shift in coalition air strategy using a sort of an ongoing fly-overs of Baghdad, also being able to call in for close urban combat that supports supporting troops on the ground. How is that going? Is there any word on that from the Pentagon?

MCINTYRE: Well by all accounts, it's going pretty well. You know, basically what they do is they stack the planes up, you know, kind of like rush hour traffic over the skies over Baghdad. That way as soon as the plane is out of fuel and needs to go back, there's one right behind it to provide basically instant close air support.

And then the troops on the ground can immediately call in a plane to direct a satellite or laser-guided bomb on a target, as they're advancing.

Today, for instance, some troops from the 3rd Army Division actually took over a presidential palace complex, not far from the airport, which they say was being used by the special Republican Guard. And in that engagement, they destroyed more than 60 military vehicles, including some civilian vehicles have been converted to military use, and also destroyed three Iraqi T-72 tanks.

So the combination of air and ground together has been really proving devastating for the Iraqi forces.

COOPER: All right, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon, thanks very much. We'll check in with you a little bit later.

We're going to check in right now with our CNN military analyst, General Wesley Clark, for his take on day 19 of Operation Iraqi Freedom.

General Clark in Little Rock, Arkansas, good evening. How's it going?

GENERAL WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Hi, Anderson.

COOPER: What's your perception of how the war is going today?

CLARK: I think it's going very well. I think the advance of the -- toward Baghdad was successful. I think right now, the major roads have been blocked off. We're conducting probes into the city. We're identifying centers of resistance. We're striking enemy fighters. We're taking out headquarters. We're demoralizing them. We're preventing their reinforcement.

This is a matter of a few days in my view before this resistance collapses.

COOPER: General Peter Pace was very careful today to not use the word "surrounded," to say that the city has been surrounded. Why so careful with the language?

CLARK: Well, because in actual fact, there's probably lots of ways to get in and outside of Baghdad, but the major roads are blocked. And this is part of the administration or part of the military strategy is to bring in more forces. And they are coming in right now, the 4th Infantry Division's 1st Brigade should be up in just a few days.

The 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment was flown in. Hopefully, some forces are coming in through the -- with the 173rd and will come down from the north. And all of this, if the Iraqis in Baghdad don't surrender, will ensure that there's a much more robust presence all the way around the city. But right now, there isn't. And that's what General Pace wants to make very clear that people understand that this is not like a ring of soldiers physically surrounding the city. This is major entrances and exits blocked.

COOPER: You mentioned the 4th Infantry Brigade. That of course the brigade that was supposed to come through Turkey originally to form a northern front, wasn't able to do that. They brought their equipment around. They were off loading in Kuwait over the last week or so.

Any sense of when they may arrive in Baghdad? And also, what do they bring with them? I mean, I've heard their -- they're the most high tech unit in the U.S. military. What does that mean?

CLARK: Well, the full division is -- has been modernized with the latest equipment. So it's got the M1-A2 tanks. It's got the upgraded Bradleys. And they've got a position location reporting system that's called the battle command system brigade and below, where they track the locations electronically of the vehicles.

And so, what this means is that soldiers don't have to report on such and such where are you. It's all done and shown on like a laptop computer inside the vehicle.

And so they've got a lot of information that's flowing in digital form between the vehicles. So this gives them enhanced maneuverability. It improves their safety, because it reduces the chance for friendly fire incident, and it lets them get updates on the enemy situation electronically.

So it's a very powerful technology. When they come in, they'll have several tank battalions. They'll have several infantry battalions mounted in Bradleys. And so, it's essentially a mirror image organization of the 3rd Infantry, except they've got a later generation of equipment.

COOPER: If you were war gaming this out, and you were playing the role of an Iraqi general, what would you do now? I mean, would you sort of be looking to get an exit strategy, to find one of those roads that doesn't have U.S. troops on it, and take off?

CLARK: Well, I think the Iraqi generals should surrender. I support General Pace in saying that. I mean, there is, in my view, there's no reasonable possibility that any of them could believe they could win against the combat power in determination of the coalition.

But assuming that they're under some political control and forced to fight, then the only fighting strategy is to work for three things: delay the U.S. advance into Baghdad as long as possible, seek to inflict as many casualties as you can on the United States forces, and force the American forces to destroy as much infrastructure and kill as many civilians as possible, so that you have a victory that at least in the Iraqi terms shows that they put up a strong fight and are worthy of support from other Arab countries.

And that would preserve for Saddam Hussein, assuming he would survive, and the Baath Party would survive, that would preserve some opportunity for him to fight underground against an American presence. COOPER: All right, General Clark, a lot more to talk about. We'll call upon your expertise a lot in the next hour or two. We'll check back in with you in a moment.

The 82nd Airborne Division has been fighting the Fedayeen militia in central Iraq the last few days. Their commander, General Charles Swannach, talks about the danger of urban fighting and his sledgehammer approach to combat.

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GEN. CHARLES SWANNACH, COMMANDER, 82nd AIRBORNE: The 3rd Infantry Division, part of 5th Corps, has attacked very, very rapidly up into the outskirts of Baghdad. And we have been responsible to come in behind them, and mop any resistance. So we're maintaining the ground lines of communication so that fuel trucks, ammo trucks, rations, water, can all go forward to the forward elements.

Urban warfare is a very difficult, probably more difficult in terms of bringing to bear all the combat power a unit might have, because of the combined spaces that you have to go and fight. To bring in your artillery, so you don't create collateral damage, to go ahead and bring in air power, to go ahead and accomplish the target. And then get the paratroopers that we have in this division close to go ahead and do the close battle combat drill, and clear buildings, and clear streets.

I see that the battle in Baghdad will very similar in terms of the combined spaces, where you go ahead and apply combat power. It's a very difficult fight, but coalition forces trained very, very much at this. And it's right in our bread and butter type drills that we do.

So conventional forces will go ahead and occupy positions. However, when they're confronted with overwhelming combat power that we have, normally we can break their defenses very, very quickly. Their paramilitary forces, I'm a little bit surprised at the fanatical, dedicated commitment to killing Americans.

The asymmetric threat or the paramilitary threat in suicide, kamikaze type bombers is something that our troopers are not all that well versed in, but they can make the right decisions.

Shock and Awe at possibly Air Force level's different from the Shock and Awe associated with a paratrooper trying to take -- cross that bridge into Samawa (ph) and seize the foothold on the far side.

Every level we've got in our military, I think we have awesome combat power. That's a very difficult issue in how we prosecute the fight to minimize collateral damage. I think we're doing a pretty good job at that. Identifying whether or not civilians are actual combatants or not is very difficult. And that's what our soldiers have to be attuned to.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE) during the Burma campaign said use a sledge to cross your walnut. And I try to translate that same philosophy to our paratroopers here in the division that are leaders. And I try to tell them this is not a football game where we've got 11 on one side and 11 on the other side. That's not how we fight this fight. We use overwhelming combat power to destroy the enemy and accomplish our mission.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: They certainly do. We just received a report in. British military officials are saying that they believe the notorious Iraqi general, the man often called Chemical Ali, General Ali Hassan Al-Magid, was probably killed in an air strike on his -- one of his compounds in Basra. They say probably killed. They have not yet positively identified him. They have positively identified his bodyguard as among those killed in the home. And he, of course, Saddam Hussein's cousin, nicknamed Chemical Ali, accused of gassing Kurd villages. So there you have it. Those are some file footage of him.

Coalition troops have found chemical suits, gas masks, and nerve agent antidotes. We know that, but so far, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction.

Joining us to talk more about that, the search for banned weapons, is David Albright, former inspector with the International Atomic Energy Agency.

David, thanks for being with us. Does it surprise you that nothing has so far been found?

DAVID ALBRIGHT, FORMER IAEA INSPECTOR: I'm a little surprised. I would've thought, if nothing else, some rocket casings that could have held chemical weapons would have been found.

But we are early in the process. And we'll have to wait and see. I mean, many sites need to be visited, and a lot work needs to be done. It's very important to get to the people who used to be in these programs.

There's thousands of scientists that were involved. And so, I think we're still early in the process, but I am a little surprised.

COOPER: And coalition forces have been very quick to point out that this is not their main priority right now. Obviously, there are battles to be fought and won before serious investigation...

ALBRIGHT: That's right.

COOPER: ...is done. The process that is underway, though, I mean we've heard about specialized units, which are out there looking for the stuff. How difficult is it for them?

ALBRIGHT: Well, it's a dangerous job. I mean, let's -- for example, they may have to go into a bunker that they think is holding only conventional weaponry, and it may be that they -- it could hold chemical or biological weapons.

I mean, Iraq had a big job to try to hide everything from the inspectors. And it may have nixed chemical and biological weapons in with conventional weapons.

And they may not be well marked. So I think the people who are looking in these sites have to be very careful and prepared for the worst.

COOPER: When you heard those reports about the chemical suits being found, about the atropine being found in various locations. I think there were some Nasiriya, other cities as well, did a red flag go up for you? Or is there an explanation that might justify why they had those?

ALBRIGHT: Yes, you had -- it has to make you more suspicious. And it seems to be an indicator. But it's by no means a smoking gun. I mean, the Iraqi troops have been trained for probably 15, 20 years to use chemical weapons and to be on the receiving end of chemical weapons. And so, they -- they are -- they have to be indoctrinated and equipped to deal with that contingency.

So I think it's to be expected, but I don't think it's a smoking gun. And I think it's part of the reason why people really want to find the weapons themselves.

COOPER: All right David Albright, I'm sorry it's so short tonight, but it's always good to talk to you. Appreciate you coming in.

ALBRIGHT: Okay.

COOPER: Thanks very much.

ALBRIGHT: Thank you.

COOPER: We've got a lot to cover in the next well, four hours or so. Just ahead, the battle for Basra, British troops took a big step today, but it was it big enough to pacify a city of more than a million? That is Iraq's second largest city after all. Stay with us.

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COOPER: Well, the war and its aftermath will be on the agenda tomorrow when President Bush meets with British Prime Minister Tony Blair in Belfast, Northern Ireland.

CNN White House correspondent Chris Burns is here with a preview -- Chris?

CHRIS BURNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. The president having come back from his Camp David retreat from over the weekend, spending the night here at the White House, before he leaves on Monday to go to Belfast, to meet with Prime Minister Tony Blair, and Burdia (ph) Hurn of Ireland, there will be talking about trying to jump start the peace process in northern Ireland, as well as in the Middle East.

But they'll also be talking, of course, about Iraq. And topping the agenda, really, is how to replace Saddam Hussein's regime with some kind of a civil administration.

Now they would like to start out with an office of reconstruction and humanitarian assistance. That is lead by a former U.S. general, Jay Garner. However, he's put his press conference on Monday on hold, pending further information. That is that a lot of issues have to be worked out.

That authority will be shifting power over to an interim Iraqi authority, but who's going to be in that? Well, how many exiles will be in there?

Ahmed Shallaby (ph) is the head of the Iraqi National Congress. The Pentagon and others have been pushing for him to be in there, and even possibly to head the show. But there are others that are people within Iraq who some believe should be also in it. So what kind of a mix should there be? Very, very interesting.

Also, what kind of a U.N. role should there be? Here's Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz.

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PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: If I could paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, of the Iraqis, by the Iraqis, for the Iraqis. Not to make them a colonial administration or a U.N. administration or run in any way by foreigners.

But it's going to be a partnership of the coalition countries. The U.N. has an important role to play in that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BURNS: What it all comes down to, however, is how do you avoid the image of a two nation occupying force? How much power do you have to give to the U.N. to try to attract other international support, assistance, money, what have you? Big questions.

The National Security Adviser, Condoleezza Rice, has made an unannounced trip to Moscow. She's there trying to mend fences with the Russians, who are very much against this war, but she'd also like to gain some support and try to -- trying to rebuild Iraq. U.S. trying to rebuild this coalition, along with Tony Blair, who's pushing much harder than President Bush for U.N. involvement, to try to show that it is truly a multinational effort in Iraq after Saddam Hussein -- Anderson.

COOPER: And that certainly seems to be an area of big disagreement between British Prime Minister Tony Blair and President Bush what the role the U.N. should play. So it will be interesting over the next two days to see what comes out of the Belfast meetings.

Chris Burns, thanks. We'll check in with you in a little while. Moving on, however, right now, the latest statement attributed to Saddam Hussein gave instructions to Iraqi forces. An Iraqi TV announcer read the statement earlier today. It said if any Iraqi fighter was unable to join a unit, he could join another unit of the same kind. U.S. military officials have reported some Iraqi military units have been wiped out or melted into the general population.

Meanwhile, the debate still rages, is Saddam Hussein still alive? Or was he killed in the so-called decapitation strike more than two weeks ago? Our Wolf Blitzer asked General Peter Pace, vice chairman of the joint chiefs, for his opinion.

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PACE: Don't know if he's alive or dead. I do know that the night that we attacked the location that we thought he was, that we had very, very good intelligence, corroborated by several sources.

Since that time, those same sources have not shown any indication that he's alive. So if he is alive, he is proving himself to be one of the world's worst generals. And if he's dead, he's dead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: Well, with General Pace's comments in mind, we want to talk about the implications of a coalition victory without capturing or killing Saddam Hussein. Would it be a victory?

Joining us from Washington is former congressman Steve Solarz. He served for 18 years on the House International Affairs Committee. Currently, he's vice chair of International Crisis Group. Representative Solarz, thanks very much for being with us.

STEPHEN SOLARZ, FORMER U.S. REPRESENTATIVE: Great to be with you.

COOPER: Is is possible to have victory without Saddam Hussein dead or captured?

SOLARZ: It would be emotionally satisfying and politically desirable if Saddam were captured or killed. It would also satisfy the imperatives of justice. But I don't think it's absolutely essential for the achievement of our objectives.

Stripped of state power, there are -- there is very little that Saddam can do to work his wicked will. And so, I think we can claim victory if we bring the regime down, if we get rid of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, and if we create the basis for the establishment of a broadly based legitimate Iraqi government which has the acceptance of the Iraqi people.

COOPER: How can that be, though? I mean, if part of this war in Iraq is beyond -- is beyond just the actual -- I mean, the importance of it goes beyond just Iraq, and it's supposed to send a message, some have said in the administration, to other countries in the region, bringing Saddam Hussein into some sort of accountability would seem to be part and parcel of that?

SOLARZ: That is certainly an objective. And I hope we can achieve it. It's hard for me to believe that Saddam will be able to escape this fate, even if he were somehow or other to slip out of Baghdad, I can't imagine there are many countries that would be willing to take him in.

But if at the end of the day, he does disappear, it seems to me there's very little he can do to create further problems for the Iraqi people or for that matter, the United States. He will no longer have possession of weapons of mass destruction. He will no longer command a massive apparatus of repression. He will no longer be in a position to go to war against neighboring countries.

Without state power, Saddam Hussein is nothing. This is quite a contrast, I should say, to Osama bin Laden, whose death or capture I think is essential in the war on terrorism, because Osama bin Laden does serve as a kind of inspiration for this loosely affiliated network of terrorist groups that he helped to put together. He provides financing to these organizations and direction as well.

So long as Osama bin Laden is alive, he can clearly threaten the United States. But without state power, there's virtually nothing Saddam can do to work his wicked will.

COOPER: After the fall of apartheid in South Africa, they -- the new South African government held these truth and reconciliation meetings that went on. And they were extraordinarily cathartic, a lot of South Africans said, for the nation.

Do you see something that needs to happen in a post-Saddam Hussein Iraq of similar weights? You know, we've just had this report just from the British saying they believe Chemical Ali may be dead, may be killed in this coalition strike. Is it important in your mind to get some of these leaders, some of these people who by all accounts, committed atrocities in the past, and bring them justice?

SOLARZ: I think it's absolutely essential. What Iraq needs is not simply a truth in reconciliation commission. That will be important. But it also needs a process of de-Baathification, similar to the process of de-Nazificiation which Germany underwent after the end of the second World War.

And I think it also needs war crimes trials to hold those top Iraqi leaders like Chemical Ali, who have engaged in genocidal behavior in the past, accountable for their dastardly deeds.

COOPER: Representative Stephen Solarz, appreciate you joining us tonight. It was interesting. Always good to talk to you. Thanks very much.

SOLARZ: Thank you.

COOPER: When we come back, our coverage continues. We're going to look at war crimes. What will happen in a post Saddam Hussein Iraq, as you look at a live picture of Baghdad. 6:46 a.m., a new day about to begin.

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COOPER: Well, when British troops discovered hundreds of boxes of human remains stored in a warehouse, it was assumed they were victims of Saddam Hussein's regime.

Our Richard Blystone went to the site in Basra, filed this report.

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RICHARD BLYSTONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It had been billed as a helicopter trip, a rarity. The lure, news reports about the possible evidence of atrocities by the Baghdad regime.

The military warned reporters they'd have to stay back from a crime investigation. The merciless crushing of a southern Iraqi uprising 12 years ago is well known. But visual proof now of the regime's brutality would bolster the U.S. and British government's case for removing it.

The buses were the first indication this might not be the big one. Finally, southwest of the battle for Basra, the scene, an artillery complex, now occupied by British troops, what might have been a prison. These words mean "my life is suffering, I have nothing left."

And piles and piles of documents, records of these dead, 408 of them, mostly Iraqi, the rest Iranian. There's a U.S. exploitation team here. It looks for evidence of Baghdad wrongdoing, like weapons of mass destruction.

COL. RICHARD MCPHEE, U.S. ARMY: Exploitation is more than just WMD. It's in a case just like here, why we have a -- this team that we brought out. And that we were here to see if there were any abuses conducted.

BLYSTONE: The forensic investigation, we're told, is going on. The remains themselves ask a question. If this was a murder camp, would the killers dig up the bodies, put them in bags and keep careful records of them?

DAN WALTERS, C.W.O., U.S. ARMY: The indications are is that this was a makeshift morgue. This facility was used in the process of repatriating soldiers from Iran and Iraq back to their families.

BLYSTONE: The remains, we're told, date from the 1980 to '88 Iran-Iraq war, which killed hundreds of thousands on both sides.

Before this war, the two countries had been periodically exchanging prisoners and remains. These will in time be processed, and with honor, returned to their families. Meanwhile, this day, a sad substitute for a gun salute.

Richard Blystone, CNN, near Basra, Iraq. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well talk of atrocities surrounding the morgue may have been just that, talk. But it is still an accepted notion that members of Saddam Hussein's regime will be brought up on war crime charges. The question is how, when and by whom?

Joining me with more on this, former ambassador for war crimes, David Scheffer.

Ambassador Scheffer, thanks for being with us. It is a difficult thing to do this. How would this work? Once the war is over, how would the process of trying to bring people up on war crimes charges work?

DAVID SCHEFFER, FORMER AMBASSADOR FOR WAR CRIMES: Well, there won't be simply one court to do this. I think you're going to have to have several tiers of courts.

At the very top, for the very senior leadership, if they survive this intervention, there would be, I hope, an international war crimes tribunal set up by the Security Council, with all the power that can be invested in that tribunal by the Security Council because some of these individuals may escape from Iraq. And you're going to need that power to make sure that they're apprehended and brought to justice.

And it's also important to remember that so many of the crimes committed by this regime were not just against the Iraqi people. The predominant number were, but there were also victims not only Iran, but also the United States Army and Air Force, as well as of course Kuwait. So there are very significant international crimes masterminded by the Iraqi leadership, that will have to be brought to account.

And then you'd have a second tier of courts, I think military tribunals, that would deal with the war crimes that we're seeing being committed right now in this conflict, where you'd have mid and low level individuals who do need to be brought to justice for those war crimes.

And then finally, but this will take a long time, the rebuilding of the Iraqi court system to take care of a large number of individuals who, for the last 30 years, have been part of a very, very repressive and criminal regime.

COOPER: I want to bring in also retired general Wesley Clark, just for his comments.

And General Clark, do you see a military role in these war crimes, at least initially?

CLARK: Well, I certainly see a military role in helping to collect the evidence and do the investigation. I would hope that we have international legitimacy for anything that we do. And we would not put the burden strictly on the military to do the kinds of war crime trials we did after World War II. Those were only against high ranking officers. And I think when you go further than this, we should be using other mechanisms.

And I wanted to ask Ambassador Scheffer if I could Anderson, whether he thinks that the failure of the United States to sign up to the international criminal court will in any way hamper our ability to use international legal methods against Iraqi war crimes.

SCHEFFER: Well, general, it may in fact do that, because when we -- if we were to go to the Security Council and seek an ad hoc criminal tribunal for Iraq, it is an awkward moment because we've taken a position opposing the permanent international criminal court, that will be designed for this next century, to take on these kinds of crimes.

And so, it's an awkward situation for the United States to be in. One would hope that we could use this opportunity, quite frankly, to demonstrate our resolve that international justice is an international equity, that it is one in which we need partners, and we need partners through a process that they regard as legitimate.

And in this case, it would be the Security Council. As for the International Criminal Court, you could theoretically make the case that some jurisdiction could fall within that court for the current conflict, and the war crimes that may have been committed during this conflict, but I think we also need to have a structure that looks back 30 years to the entirety of the Iraqi regime's crimes. And that could only be through an ad hoc tribunal.

COOPER: Richard Blystone in his last report sort of made light -- or not light, but sort of call into question well why would they document these kind of things? But I mean, I've been to Tulles (ph) Long Prison in Nam Penh in Cambodia. And the documentation on those war crimes is quite extensive. Do you have any sense of whether or not the Iraqi regime keeps notes of their behavior over the last 30 years or so?

SCHEFFER: Oh, absolutely. There's an enormous amount of evidence. And we certainly spend much of our time during the 1990s making sure that evidence was gathered, that it was translated, put on CD-ROMs. There's an enormous amount of documentary evidence with respect to 30 years worth of atrocity crimes.

And just as with the Nazis, the Iraqis have been very, very diligent in recording it all on paper.

COOPER: All right, David Scheffer, former ambassador for war crimes, and General Clark, thanks, as always.

When we come back, remembering the fallen soldiers of the 507th.

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COOPER: You are looking at a live picture of Baghdad, where gunfire is sounding. Let's listen in.

We will continue to follow the sights and the sounds the war in Iraq. And we will keep our eye on Baghdad when we return. TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com