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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Saddam: Dead or Alive?

Aired April 08, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. The consequences of war intended and unintended seem to be the focus of our four hours tonight. Civilian casualties, including the deaths of a number of journalists, as we were leaving the air yesterday or early this morning.
And the post-war Iraq. Who will be the players? How will they get in place? All of that and more in the four hours ahead.

We begin as we do each night with a broad look at the pieces in play. Especially so tonight. The pieces still very much in limbo, a lot of unknowns right now, much still hidden in the fog of war. But make no mistake, the war goes on, and increasingly it goes on inside Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Fires from large-scale urban combat continue to burn in Baghdad as night fell. Some American units are not only inside the city, they may have control of some Iraqi government buildings. They are receiving reinforcements. In the American view, according to one commander, we are expanding and we are squeezing.

MAJ. GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We're starting to bring in regular re-supply activities, so what we're really demonstrating is an ability to do whatever it is General Franks wants to do.

BROWN: But as everyone knows by now, the Iraqis have a vote. And on the streets, many young men out-gunned badly by the Americans are playing a life and death game of cat and mouse with the U.S. Army.

Crews worked through the rubble of what was a building and a restaurant in downtown Baghdad. The site of an American air attack 24 hours earlier aimed at killing Saddam Hussein and his top leaders. The four-man crew of the Air Force B-41 bomber that delivered the strike was already in the air over Baghdad when the order came.

LT. COL. FRED SWANN, U.S. AIR FORCE: I did not know who was there. To me, when they said priority leadership target, it's anybody that's in the regime. And I really didn't care. You know the job was to go put the bombs on the target and then worry about that later.

BROWN: An A-10 tank killer like this one was shot down over Baghdad. The pilot later rescued. Late today, news as well of a lost of F-15; search and rescue is underway. Outside of the city American soldiers were still battling in villages and in the desert. This unit of the 101st Airborne got caught up in a fierce firefight with what commanders said was a local militia opposition, not the regular Iraqi army. It was in a village called Hillah, 50 or so miles south of the capital, not far from the ancient city of Babylon.

And in the southeastern suburbs of Baghdad, the Marines took a military airfield. Found more chemical protective suits and destroyed an Iraqi arsenal. CNN's Martin Savidge was there to watch.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: ... and so the Marines quickly went about the job of destroying it. This is sort of demolition that is done on the fly here. The Marines are obviously still trying to push forward through their objectives.

BROWN: First pictures today from an Iraqi prison in Basra. Headquarters of the secret police there. With smoke still smoldering in the bombed out building, local residents were free to speak for the first time in decades of how so many had been tortured and killed.

And back in Baghdad, there was a candlelight vigil for the reporters and cameramen killed in bitter fighting 24 hours ago. This correspondent for Al-Jazeera network died. So, too, did cameramen from Spanish television and from Reuters.

In both incidents, American commanders said their tanks had received fire from buildings where the journalists had their headquarters. This building for Al-Jazeera and the Palestine Hotel for the two cameramen.

There were angry denials about this from the journalists on the ground in Baghdad. But wherever the truth lies, as the U.S. Central Command said in a statement, these events serve as a tragic reminder of just how dangerous life is on the battlefield. And Baghdad tonight is still a battlefield.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So that's the big picture tonight, and we start putting the smaller pieces of the puzzle in place. It goes without saying, if we had an answer to the big question of this war, that question, you know the one, you would have heard about it by now: is he alive or not? That said, how the air strike on Saddam Hussein came to be is fascinating in and of itself.

Our national security correspondent David Ensor has spent his day working on that, and David joins us tonight from Washington. David, good evening.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. Well, this is very sensitive stuff, how the U.S. collects intelligence on something as critical as this. Still, today we did learn a little more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ENSOR (voice-over): A knowledgeable U.S. official says the intelligence that led to the strike came from an eyewitness who said he thought he saw Saddam Hussein, possibly one or more of his two sons, and other senior officials go into the building. The bombs hit just 45 minutes after U.S. intelligence gave military commanders that information. U.S. officials say they still do not know whether they killed the Iraqi leader.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know I don't know whether he survived. The only thing I know is he is losing power.

ENSOR: Officials say it may be some time before the U.S. can be sure whether Saddam Hussein is alive. They are tracking Iraqi communications to see whether anyone refers to his status. Meantime, U.S. officials say efforts to track down Saddam Hussein will continue.

KENNETH POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It's a very hard target. Saddam is paranoid. He is very good about his security. And my guess is U.S. forces are trying to take advantage of every possible lead out there.

ENSOR: The Iraqi regime has an extensive network of deep underground hardened bunkers under Baghdad. Some of them were built in the '80s under contract by Swiss, German and Yugoslav engineers; others more recently by Iraqis. U.S. officials say they are not sure whether the buildings that were hit have bunkers were under them. However, if it turns out there is a bunker beneath the site, experts say while the 2,000-pound bunker-buster bombs are highly effective, the target information must be very precise.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: One expert said if the bunker-buster bomb misses the room where the targeted individuals are by just about 15 feet, a foot thick reinforced concrete wall can protect the occupants for more than perhaps some damage to their hearing -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK David, you said in the piece that they'll be listening to the chatter. They'll listen to communications to try to pick up clues to whether he is dead or alive. Presumably, they've been doing that all along. Does that suggest that they have known he was alive from the crosstalk and the chatter?

ENSOR: It has been the working assumption of U.S. intelligence that, for some days, for some weeks, I would say, that they did not succeed in killing Saddam Hussein on March 19th, when they started the fight by trying to kill him. They didn't know for sure. They felt they might have.

They thought they had intelligence that he was there. But the consensus was it's best to assume he's still alive. And for the moment, they're going to go ahead and assume that now as well.

They are not sure they got him this time either. So there are still, for example, you can assume, CIA teams and paramilitary teams moving around Baghdad, looking for information, seeking to -- in case he is still alive -- find him.

BROWN: And I'm not sure if this is answerable or not, but I will try. The source here must have been, in their view, an awfully good source to go ahead and drop four of those big bombs in what is a crowded residential neighborhood where there were bound to be civilian casualties as well?

ENSOR: I think you're right. I think they were fairly confident with their information. They felt it was likely that there were at least some of the top senior leaders there, and they still say that there were. And that there was a good chance Saddam was there as well. But you know the officials you speak to now will say, we don't know for sure, we just don't.

BROWN: Some day we will know. David, thank you. David Ensor on the Saddam matter.

To the Pentagon next. Late developments, progress, mistakes made as well. A very full day for our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre, who's with us as always again tonight. Jamie, good evening to you.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. Well, the situation in Baghdad is that the United States feels that it is controlling more and more territory. They have pushed out from these presidential palaces where they've set up a foothold in the city and are controlling more and more of the city, but they don't have the city under control by any means.

They do control now the airports on both sides of town. Including the Rashid Airbase which was taken by the Marines. And they are pursuing a strategy to essentially slice up the city into areas of their control and try to isolate the regime.

Meanwhile, the fighting has been fairly intense. The Pentagon described it as just pockets of resistance, but some of those pockets have been fairly resistant. We are seeing that there are still Saddam Hussein loyalists who are willing to fight to the death, using mostly small arms and rocket-propelled grenades to go against the U.S. troops. And one senior Defense official said to me, as he was reviewing some of the battle reports, saying, "I'd hope to say by now that we had taken Baghdad, but it looks like we're not quite there yet" -- Aaron.

BROWN: I think there's been a sense over last couple of days since the troops got to Baghdad that more of it was under coalition control than it turns out to be. We are really talking about a couple of small pockets in what is a very large city, right?

MCINTYRE: That's right. Although they do point out that these two presidential palaces, they have extended the perimeter around them considerably in the last 24 hours. They also say that they have a presence on a lot more Baghdad streets than they had. They don't pretend to control those streets. And of course the addition of the airport and the other airport and other things in the suburbs does give them more area of control. Now the 4th Infantry Division, which you recall was supposed to come in through the north, sources tell me that it's going to probably start moving into southern Iraq by the end of this week and start to move up to the north. That will give the U.S. additional manpower if they needed to continue fighting there.

In addition, source say that heavy armor is beginning to be flown into the north. You know the forces in the north really haven't had the kind of firepower that the forces in the south have had. They're going to start to get some of that heavy armor flown in on C-17s now that the U.S. controls those airfields in the north.

That will also give them a way to start pushing south with some much more firepower than they have now. So the big squeeze play is still on.

BROWN: And on the subject of the north, there is still a search and rescue operation going on for two lost pilots in the north?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's not clear exactly what their status is.

BROWN: OK.

MCINTYRE: And the Pentagon's not talking much about it. What we know is the plane went down on Sunday. They didn't say anything about it initially.

It went down in the area of Tikrit, which is, from the U.S. perspective, hostile territory. Not an area that U.S. has control in. We don't know the fate of the two pilots.

The search technically is still under way. We don't know exactly what efforts they're making, but obviously they're not discussing details of that.

BROWN: Do they believe it went down from hostile fire?

MCINTYRE: They haven't said.

BROWN: OK. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

More now on the fighting and the incidents that involved the deaths of a number of journalists, as we were leaving the air early this morning. This is a topic that has dominated the discussion or has -- one of the topics at least that has dominated the discussion throughout the day. It's a sensitive topic obviously to reporters and to many of you watching.

Rym Brahimi is following the developments. She is working sources from her listing post in Amman, Jordan, and she joins us from there tonight. Nice to see you.

RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Same here, Aaron. Well, more targets again in the Iraqi capital. Tonight included -- or this afternoon included the Baath Party headquarters and the Ministry of Information again. But now basically, Aaron, this is war in the middle of the city.

This is what many people have been fearing. And with this urban warfare, the war has definitely taken a new turn.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRAHIMI (voice-over): Exchange of fire between Iraqi and U.S. troops took the battle from the presidential compound said to be under U.S. control to the Ministry of Planning nearby, and then onto the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Bridge further north, as U.S. troops advanced deeper into the Iraqi capital.

Al-Jazeera journalist Tariq Ayoub was killed, and his colleague was injured, when the TV organization's office on the Tigris River was hit in the every hours of the morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through )translator: Our colleagues who were at the offices confirm and believe that this bombing was deliberate. They were hit by two missiles, not one. And the second bombing of Abu Dhabi offices confirm their view.

BRAHIMI: That second bombing took Abu Dhabi TV off the air for four hours. A U.S. State Department spokesman said on Al-Jazeera TV that the bombing was not deliberate.

Both of the houses hit are located on the west side of Baghdad. A residential enclave near a state-run hotel surrounded by government buildings. Moving from the west side of town to the east side of the river, U.S. tanks on the bridge were reportedly being fired at from the Palestine Hotel, according to a U.S. military spokesman.

The Palestine, home to dozens of local and international journalists covering the war, was hit by at least one shell from a U.S. tank. The Reuters journalist was killed and three others wounded in their makeshift office on the 15th floor. A Spanish journalist was also killed.

Red Cross officials say hospitals are now overwhelmed with the stream of casualties. And one of the main Baghdad high-tech hospitals is now without water and electricity. As U.S.-led forces bring the war into the heart of the Iraqi capital, the conflict is taking a new even more deadly turn for residents in Baghdad and the journalists covering the conflict.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRAHIMI: Aaron, you were saying how sensitive it was for us journalists, for us in the journalistic community to see three of our colleagues killed like this. It is very sensitive.

I just spoke a while ago to one of the journalists that was wounded. She was in a hospital in Baghdad. She was just about to have surgery to have piece of shrapnel removed from her head.

But her's is a story that we can tell. And if journalists like her that are still in Baghdad that have made the choice to stay in the Iraqi capital throughout the fighting are intimidated or pushed or led to leave by such actions, well, it does put a lot of questions. It raises a lot of questions. And it also raises the question of who will speak for those civilian casualties that are caught in the crossfire as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. Let's leave those questions on the table for a bit, because we'll have a variety of voices throughout the night to talk about some of them. What is -- Al-Jazeera, it seems to me -- I was listening to "LARRY KING" coming down, and they backed off a bit on this sense that they thought they were deliberately targeted. That they're at least now open to the notion that it ought to be investigated and let's find out what happened.

Is there, in the Arab community where you are, and as you watch feeds coming in, is the story being played as the Americans were deliberately targeting reporters?

BRAHIMI: Well, it's very, very much the question that's been put. Not only on the Arab media, but you talk to people here, and definitely the question is, was this really an accident? And the reason for that, they point out when I speak to people, Aaron, is they say that that's three incidents, three separate incidents in one day.

One of them involving Abu Dhabi that was hit by a tank shell, another one involving the Al-Jazeera house that was hit by a missile. And then the Palestine Hotel hit yet by another tank shell. And so that in the region, in the part of the world that, as you know, is quite inclined to see plots very often and complicity theories. Well, that of course in many people's minds -- there is no doubt that this was intentional.

And a lot of people that are journalists here watching what's happening in Baghdad, as I am. A lot of people are asking, well, what's going to happen next? Are these journalists going to leave? And does that mean that the only people who are going to be able to report out of Baghdad will be the journalists that are embedded and all the Iraqi local journalists -- Aaron.

BROWN: Rym, thank you. We'll be hearing from you throughout the night as well.

We quickly turn to General Wesley Clark, who is back in Washington tonight. General Clark, let's deal with this one first. Perception has a way of becoming reality in lots of places, not just the Arab part of the world. So whether the intent was -- and that's I think clearly open to question what the intent was -- the perception seems pretty clear, and that's a problem for the Americans.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Aaron, it is. And we need to make it as clear as possible what it was like for those guys who were fighting through that column and those tanks.

Imagine yourself in that armor column, you're receiving fire from several directions.

You're not quite sure where you are in Baghdad. Maybe your company commander knows that. He may have a GPS system that says, hey, there is the Rashid Hotel right around the corner. But you're in the tank, and all you can hear is the cling, cling of small arms fire, the tank commanders saying look right, traverse left, we are getting fire from up there.

And you realize that every infantryman, every small arm's guy, every sniper the next minute could put that rifle down and pick up a rocket-propelled grenade, which could be lethal to a Bradley fighting vehicle or a tank. It's only natural that if you have that in the case, you know that's the threat, you fire whatever weapons you have at the source of the enemy's fire.

That could be a tank gun. That could be a machine gun. It could be a Bradley 25-millimeter cannon. But it's all part of the fight, and you're dealing with men who are under fire and anxious to protect themselves. And they have every right to do.

It is nothing about targeting people specifically. It's not personal. This is war.

BROWN: Implicit in the theory that the journalists were targeted it seems to me is that this decision was made somewhere in the chain of command. How much freedom does a tank commander, an individual soldier have to make a decision to return fire, if that's what it is, or to target something if that's what it was?

CLARK: Well, the soldier is given rules of engagement. In other words, he's going to be told, don't shoot at civilians unless you are receiving fire. Don't shoot at buildings unless you are receiving fire from that building.

But then when he receives the fire, he certainly has the freedom to fire back and protect himself, engage the incoming source of fire as accurately as possible, as discriminately as possible. But he will return fire. And if he sees the enemy first before the enemy shoots, and the enemy's aiming a rifle or is in uniform or whatever, he has the authority to fire.

The other part of your question, Aaron, is could someone centrally have directed this? And the idea that you could go through eight or 10 levels of the chain of command down through the level of a tank commander, and say, by the way, when you get to the Al Rashid, knock it off, is -- I mean it's beyond the ludicrous.

Soldiers don't take orders that way. Units don't function that way. Orders can't be given that way. And they would be viewed as illegal if they were.

BROWN: But again, back to the beginning, perception has a way of becoming a reality. And in the context of the civilian casualties that certainly have mounted up and will continue to mount up, this is all part of the broader problem the Americans face in winning the peace.

CLARK: That's exactly right. And remember, as we were talking the other night, Saddam probably has three goals in his this fight for Baghdad. No. 1, to kill as many Americans as he can. No. 2, to delay it as long as possible. And No. 3, to make us do as much damage to the infrastructure and kill as many innocent civilians as he can. In that sense, attacking the Al Rashid Hotel today was a success for Saddam.

BROWN: General, it's good to have you with us. General Clark will be with us for the first couple of hours tonight. We will take a break.

David Halberstam, legendary war correspondent and author, joins us after the break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We can imagine some of the simple things that troops in Iraq want more than anything else, a good meal, a letter from home, a moment's rest, and something else, a smile and a friendly wave. Iraq is a very complicated place these days. The Americans not received well everywhere, but nor are they opposed everywhere either.

One group of Marines got plenty of good feelings today as they traveled in eastern Iraq. Here is CNN's Alessio Vinci.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRSPONDENT (voice-over): Approaching the town of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in eastern Iraq, a crowd of civilians on the bridge. They turn out to be an impromptu welcoming committee, jubilant civilians very happy to see the Americans. In broken English, they tell us why the Americans are so welcomed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Make us happy and the freedom.

VINCI: The crowds so enthusiastic had to be controlled with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) wire (UNINTELLIGIBLE) children pushed from behind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The atmosphere here has been extremely positive. They are clapping, cheering, and have been very jovial, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

VINCI: U.S. Marines now still worry the Iraqi paramilitaries could be disguised as civilians and attack. So despite the euphoria, they keep all civilians at a safe distance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are telling them we are the military. We're not here to be their friends, not yet. We have our job to do, and part of that job is being hampered by them being up here on our position.

VINCI: But these military men show they have a heart, and following brief negotiations and a search, the Marines allow this farmer to take his livestock across the bridge.

(on camera): U.S. Marines welcome the friendly crowd, but they also say that they came here because they have reports that remnants of the Iraqi 10th armored division are still active in this area. Are there any soldiers here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No soldiers. All of them go to their home.

VINCI (voice-over): People here tell us they forced all of the soldiers to leave town or to stay at home. This man also says there are no more Baath Party members either. Over the next few days, one job of the Marines here will be to determine if those claims are true. Alessio Vinci, CNN, with the U.S. Marines, near (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're always pleased when David Halberstam joins us. He has joined us on more than one occasion. Mr. Halberstam is a well respected writer. And many years back in other wars he was a legendary war correspondent in both Vietnam and in the Congo, as I recall. David joins us from New York tonight.

It's nice to see you. I don't want to spend all of our time or even most of our time talking about the reporters here. But just a quick minute. Is there something about this war in this situation that makes it particularly dangerous for journalists?

DAVID HALBERSTAM, AUTHOR: I think, one, the immediacy, the fact that the journalists are right up there, and so much of it I suppose is done by photographers, that they have to be at the cutting edge. I mean there's not much in the way of being back at the cable head the way you were, say, in World War II or other wars.

You do it by being there. The technology has made that possible. You can report from the very cutting edge, and it's always dangerous.

I mean this is a very ugly, mean war. Both sides -- the Americans have a lot of technology, and the Iraqis are on their home territory and are probably going to break into guerrilla units.

BROWN: Well let's talk about the future here. One of the things -- one of the great questions in this is how will we know as a country that we have won the war? Do you see that answer in the next year, five years, the next generation, ever?

HALBERSTAM: I'm afraid that I think that there's -- I heard that today, you know, talking about when we've won or when the war's won. And getting to Baghdad and even sort of seemingly pacifying -- seemingly pacifying Baghdad may not end the war. And what we may think is the 15th round of a 15-round fight may be round one in that region.

And I want to specify region rather than just Iraq. Because the impact of what we're doing is regional. The recruiting may happen elsewhere in other Arab Islamic countries. mot necessarily just in Iraq.

The powerful impact of these images going through that region may have a slower fuse than we Americans tend to expect. We've become a supremely impatient country, and we want it clean, over, militarily done.

I don't think it's going to work that way. I think, for instance, the most important technological advance when we look back 25 years from now may not just be the reporters up there at night with the night cameras on them, or the awesome new weaponry, it may be the fact that, for the first time, this war is going out live and in color in the Arab world, with Arab networks, with Arab voices commenting on these images.

That may be, in fact, the most important technological development since Gulf War One. And, therefore, the fuse may be a much slower burning fuse.

BROWN: David, hang with us for a second. Let me bring General Clark in, because I know he is chomping at the bit to get in on this -- General, go ahead.

HALBERSTAM: Hello, General. How are you?

CLARK: Hello, David. Good to see you tonight.

HALBERSTAM: I see you have been embedded in CNN, Wesley.

CLARK: It's a great privilege to be able to compliment the troops and watch this operation unfold. But I share your concerns on the potential for expansion here.

One of the reports that came out in the press today reported some 5,000 Syrians are now engaged in the fight, according to one of the Syrians who surrendered at the airport. And this may be just the tip of the iceberg. We don't know the durability of it, but clearly the longer the fighting goes on, the greater the potential to draw in others.

And Aaron, just one additional point of sort of the flipside of what David is saying. If you look at our objectives in this, to unravel the chain of proliferation, it's going to lead to other nations in the region. And we're already telling them, as the secretary of defense, deputy secretary of defense have said, look at the lesson of Iraq. That lesson means it could happen there.

BROWN: David, let me give you the last word. Do you think Americans by and large are focused on this long view of what means peace? Or have they focused to this point on the narrow view, let's take Baghdad, let's get rid of Saddam, however you frame it?

HALBERSTAM: Well, I think the administration has taken the latter. I think the American people are more uneasy, they are wary. I think when I go out and say -- and you know I'm somewhat melancholy about this because the prism through which I see things is Vietnam. I have a feeling that we have punched our hand into the largest hornet's nest in the world, and therefore the consequences in the region are very -- are likely to be very difficult in other countries.

I have a feeling that people are ready to hear that. I think they support the troops and are very uneasy about anything that pulls us into a larger and perhaps escalating confrontation in a part of the world they don't know much about. But when they learn more, they are very uneasy with. They see lots of dangers there.

BROWN: David, as always, we look forward to see youing you back in New York soon. Thank you.

HALBERSTAM: Nice to be here.

BROWN: Author and reporter David Halberstam.

We will take a break, update the day's headlines. Our coverage continues in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We have followed the 3rd Infantry 7th Cavalry Division since the very beginning of the war, through the dash up the deserts in Iraq, all the way to the airport in Baghdad.

We turn again to Walter Rodgers, who is with that group, is still with them. And we're glad see him tonight.

Walt, good evening.

WALT RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron.

The 7th Cavalry continues to hold a flanking position on the southern suburbs of Baghdad. We have moved over the past several days, flanking in the sense that what are we doing is protecting the soft underbelly or the underbelly of the 7th Brigade, which is -- 2nd Brigade, which is already in the city of Baghdad.

Having said that, interestingly, there is more and more intercourse with the Iraqi population, particularly in the southern suburbs of Baghdad. Increasingly, the Army's role is transitioning from being a combat unit to a problem-solver. There's been a collapse, of course, of civil government, or uncivil government, if you will, in Baghdad. And the Army finds itself increasingly approached by Iraqi civilians. One came up to the 7th Cavalry yesterday, presented a handwritten note someone else had obviously written in English and said: I came to retrieve a dead body. I am unarmed.

Others are looking for automobiles. Others are offering to help the Army or perhaps help the Army retrieve dead American bodies. One soldier came -- or, excuse me, one Iraqi came up yesterday and said privately to a soldier he knew where there was an American who had been executed by the Fedayeen. The Army was very suspicious, because this could have been an ambush.

When this Iraqi was told privately: Now, you realize we will take you there under escort to this alleged unmarked grave. When we take you there, what we're going to do is -- if we come under fire, we will personally shoot you. Suddenly, this man disappeared.

Much of what we are doing now, 7th Cavalry, is following the advice of the local civilian population, who are leading the Army into areas where are there huge caches of huge Iraqi weapons, tanks, armored personnel carriers. And for the past two or three days, the Army has simply been blowing up big tank units which were abandoned by deserting Iraqi soldiers -- Aaron.

BROWN: After so many days of fighting that the cavalry unit you're with has had, all the way through that last third of their ride up into Baghdad, after so many days of that fighting, how are they dealing with this more quiet time?

RODGERS: It's not frustrating. They came here to fight. They believe they've fought well. And, by every indication, they have. I spoke with one officer last night and he was very frustrated. He threw up his hands and said: Look, they come to me with 20 problems to solve and I have only have five answers -- excuse me, 25 problems -- and I only have five answers to their problems.

Most of them are getting restive. That is to say, they're waiting for the 4th Infantry Division to arrive from Kuwait to relieve them. I asked many of the soldiers last night, when there was the thought that Saddam Hussein and his sons may have been killed in that blockbuster bomb blast, and I asked them -- I said: How would you feel if this turned out to be the case?

Each soldier I talked to, save one, said: Just relieved. We came here to get a job done. That would mean we have accomplished our job. One or two of the soldiers was particularly prescient. One said at the time: I won't believe it and I don't know any of these Iraqi citizens will believe it until they come up with a lot more proof.

I think that's a pretty general feeling around here -- Aaron.

BROWN: And, as quickly as you can, do they feel the danger for them, the personal danger for them, has passed?

RODGERS: They can feel that there is a certain -- the immediacy of the threat has gone. Having said that, every one of these soldiers knows that, the moment they let their guard down, they become extremely vulnerable. And, as their commanding officer said, there's still more fighting ahead. What he said was: We're going to not be safe, really safe, until we are back in Fort Stewart, Georgia -- Aaron.

BROWN: Walt, thank you -- Walt Rodgers in -- or outside of Baghdad tonight.

We'll take a break. Our coverage continues in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL NEELY, ITN REPORTER (voice-over): Saddam Hussein's Iraq is a state of terror, and this is where it's planned and perpetrated, the headquarters of his secret police, this one in Basra. No British soldier has been here yet. Today, as I walked in, I met Iraqis, none of whom had ever been inside willingly.

What was to follow was a horrific education in terror and torture: in the smoking basement of the bombed building, a warren of cells. Here, prisoners were tortured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, of course.

NEELY: People died.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People died, people in prison without court, without trial.

NEELY: Any people who Saddam did not like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course. Of course.

NEELY (voice-over): The building is crumbling. Down we went, further to cells that had no light, little air, cockroaches, filth, and, on the ground, a gas mask and bottles of chemicals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can imagine this every day, every month. So many people come here, but we don't know about them at all.

NEELY: These ordinary Iraqis had been terrified to come here, until today, though one student on the left had been here before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was one of the prisoners here.

(on camera): For how long?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eight years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eight, nine, eight years.

NEELY (voice-over): And his crime for eight years in jail? He prayed too much and was seen as a dangerous radical.

(on camera): More cells.

(voice-over): But the Mukhabarat headquarters had more horrors to reveal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they tied their hands behind and hung them and hung them for many days.

NEELY: These men had relatives murdered here. So desperate are they to tell their story that they began reenacting what they and their brothers and friends have suffered.

The hook in the ceiling is for one purpose only, another hook in a different cell and a different form of torture. Saddam Hussein controlled Iraq through fear, torture and execution. And it happened here to tens of thousands of Iraqis that Saddam's secret police deemed dangerous.

This man cowered for months, crammed with 300 mothers into a huge cell. Hamid Fatil (ph) may look like he's acting, but he was tortured here, along with his two brothers, who were executed.

This man was here, too, with his brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They sentenced him to death. And they sent him to Baghdad and killed. He was hanged there, hanged.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a prisoner under the name of Ahmed Adis Aeid (ph).

NEELY: They kept records of prisoners, these and their fingerprints all that's left of them, apart from the photographs they took of exactly what they had done.

(on camera): If there is an evil center to Saddam Hussein's regime, then it is surely here and in other places of torture. And there's plenty here that we simply cannot show you. In this block, it was men over here, hundreds of them, and women and children here.

(voice-over): To call all this a chamber of horrors is a cliche. And this place is beyond cliche. The hundreds or thousands who died here who were given no trial, no voice, cry out.

On the ground, I found a book called "The Psychology of Interrogation," as if the men who worked here for Saddam needed a handbook. I was glad of the fresh air and glad to leave, glad I could. No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where these children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture.

Bill Neely, ITV News, Basra.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, we've put a lot out there in the first 48 minutes tonight. We'll start with that report after a break. And we'll be joined again by General Wes Clark.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: General Wesley Clark joins us again.

General, setting aside all of the debating about whether there should have been a war or should not have been a war and what will happen after the war and how will we know the war was won, everybody, most everybody, knew this was a bad, evil regime. And so it ought be no surprise, but it's still awfully powerful when you see the evidence of how evil it could be.

CLARK: I agree.

I mean, when I saw those pictures, I just was overcome with horror and grief for those people. And yet we know that's just scratching the surface. There's going to be lots more that will come out. And I'm not at all surprised at the photographs and the detailed records. I think there will be films and lots more when we get into the palaces of Saddam and look at some of the things he has done to his opponents. It will be horrifying.

BROWN: This is probably better asked of a psychologist than a general, but this was true in Nazi Germany, too. It's true in lots of places. There is an odd human trait to keep records on these sorts of things.

CLARK: There is.

And, of course, the same was the case in Stalinist Russia. Some of those records have been released. There's probably many that have never been released by the KGB on some of the things that happened in communist Russia. And there are other places in the world where this is still going on also.

But there is a certain psychology of evil, as though it's not enough that it be committed. It has to be substantiated, proved and delivered to the highest authorities.

BROWN: Let's talk a bit about some of the things that Walt Rodgers was talking about. Anything in that report, which was essentially the report of a quiet day and a unit going about its business -- anything in that report that jumped out at you as either troubling or unusual?

CLARK: Well, the first thing is, I wasn't sure how quiet a day it was, because they just fought off a counterattack there, as I read the reports, a day or two ago. And there's always a possibility of some of these guys reinfiltrating and giving them trouble. So they must be really still on high alert there, weapons charged and ready to go, and a very high degree of security.

But other thing that struck me, Aaron, was when he talked about going out and blowing out these tank parks, where the vehicles had been abandoned. And maybe that's the mystery of what happened to the missing vehicles, because we heard that the divisions had been pounded. They had sort of melted away. But then we couldn't -- it didn't seem quite right, because we didn't get the photographs. We didn't get the count of all these vehicles that had been destroyed.

Two things: No. 1, I wonder why we couldn't get them from the air in the first place. And, secondly, if we saw them out there, why didn't we then get them from the air? Maybe they're in garages. Maybe they're covered up and hidden somewhere. But I remember, during the Kosovo campaign, we worked with the Air Force a lot on what was called tank plinking. And I remember the air commanders came to me and he said: Sir, we're not very good at plinking tanks.

But the Air Force has gotten a lot better at it. It's one of the key functions we've got. And so I hope that, as we move ahead, we will figure out and run the rabbits down the rabbit hole on this one. We want to be able to take care of everything from the air we can take of. On that battlefield, anything you can do to save the ground forces from getting out there and mixing it up with the enemy, we should be doing.

BROWN: About a minute left in this segment. One of the more troubling shots of the day that I saw was the shot of young Iraqi men, presumably Iraqi, though they may not have been, with RPGs and small-arms roaming around in vans around the city. Is that the future, both near term and, perhaps even more frighteningly, long term?

CLARK: Now, that's really the question, isn't it?

There's sort of three different endings: the surrender; a gradual diminution of the violence and suddenly everybody lays his weapons down. And then the third alternative, which is the worst, is, it sort of becomes a West Bank situation, in which there are armed bands. There's terror. There's hit-and-run that goes on ad infinitum, with us as a foreign country in there trying to create intelligence and deal with the Iraqis to handle it.

It could be tough. Too soon to be pessimistic at this stage. We know the right thing to do is finish the fight as soon as possible and do our best to avoid inflicting civilian casualties and infrastructure destruction on Baghdad. And then we've got to hope our psychological operations and political activities work.

BROWN: General, back with you shortly.

We'll take a break. We're back with you shortly as well, but a break first. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you're a regular viewer of NEWSNIGHT, you know we try and make room for still photographers. Video tells story one way, but still photos can tell the same story in quite another way.

Tonight, the pictures comes from Rob Curtis of the Army Times Publishing. He's with the 101st Airborne outside of Karbala, where the combat was close and danger, as you will see, was all around.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROB CURTIS, PHOTOGRAPHER, ARMY TIMES PUBLISHING: My name is Rob Curtis. I am a photographer with the Army Times, a publishing company, out here shooting pictures about the 101st 2nd Brigade's work here in Iraq.

The hearts are -- go all the way back to World War II. And that just signifies the unit. And the 101st came in to police the area and really do the deep-down scrubbing to clear it and make sure it was safe. Soon after we were there, they found Baath Party headquarters. And everywhere we went, you saw these pictures of Saddam Hussein. On the walls, there were little message written, that: Saddam is always thinking of you.

Outside of that party headquarters, there was a huge picture of Saddam. And with great pride, one of the captains from the 101st walked up with a can of spray paint and wrote the Widowmaker over his face, the 3-502 sign. The 101st Airborne moved. They are air assaults, which mean they attack from the helicopters. So, they'll load on a helicopter in the morning. They get out and then just march to the objective.

Saturday was a big day here for the guys I was with. It started out as an air assault from a city down south. And they got through Karbala and hiked across the desert in about 100-degree heat, heading into the city and ran into some pretty stiff resistance.

Let me tell you, the urban fighting for these guys is their bread and butter. And that's the only reason they are really here, is to search and clear buildings block by block. And it's real heavy lifting for these guys. They have to physically -- they take four-man teams into every single room. And they cleared maybe 4,000 rooms since they have been here as a battalion.

The Americans' helicopters were shooting rockets and machine guns at the Iraqi positions. At one point, when we came around the corner, we saw a trickle of civilians coming around the corner. Then maybe, even I think by the time they had all passed us, there must have been 100, maybe as many as 300, just streaming away from the fighting. The soldiers were really concerned with getting these people out of the city as best as they could safely and not shooting anybody by accident.

These guys are wonderful soldiers. They are all a volunteer force. They're built like bricks. A lot of them just keep going. Throw anything at them. I really couldn't speak more highly of the people I'm with. They are taking care of me. And all I can do is do my best is show what it is that they are going through.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Photos of Rob Curtis for the Army Times.

We will take a break, update the day's headlines. And when we come back, we focus for a bit on the battle for Baghdad.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

BROWN: For those of you just joining us, that's a quick look at the headlines. Here's a fuller version of the broad outlines of the day.

It was quite a busy day on many different fronts, but much of the fighting at least focused squarely on Baghdad.

Here's our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There may only be pockets of resistance left in Baghdad, as the Pentagon says, but those pockets are still fighting, dying and sometimes inflicting U.S. casualties in the last ditch defense of the regime.

The U.S. squeeze play is on. In addition to their base at the main international airport, U.S. soldiers continue to occupy two presidential palaces downtown and marines have secured a second airport to the east. On their way to the airport, the marines found and destroyed abandoned Iraqi weapons and ammunition.

In Baghdad, U.S. troops are now being resupplied and have no plans to leave.

JAM. GEN. STAN MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY DIR.: We are sitting in the center of the city with almost an armored brigade right now, which is extraordinary. So if you put it in that kind of context, I think the endgame is the end of the regime, and that's much closer than people thought it was.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon still can't say if the four 2000-pound bombs a B1 bomber dropped on this residential area killed Saddam Hussein or any of his inner circle, and with Iraq's information minister still waxing defiant, it's clear someone is still in charge.

MOHAMMED SAEED AL-SAHAF, IRAQI INFORMATION MINISTER (through translator): It's the same desperate attempts to weaken our resistance, but our forces, especially the commandos, ae preparing to destroy them.

MCINTYRE: Sahaf is said to be working out of the Palestine Hotel, where most international journalists are based. The Hotel was hit by a U.S. tank round Tuesday, killing two journalists and wounding two others.

The Pentagon expressed regret for the deaths and for an earlier incident in which an Al Jazeera reporter was killed in an exchange of gunfire between U.S. and Iraqi forces near the Information Ministry, but insisted in both cases U.S. troops responded with appropriate force and in self defense.

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: War is a dangerous, dangerous business and you're not safe when you're in a war zone.

MCINTYRE (on camera): And the United States continues to build up its forces, flying tanks and armored vehicles into airfields in northern Iraq to give U.S. forces there more fire power.

In addition, sources say the U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division, now in Kuwait, could begin moving into southern Iraq as soon as later this week.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: There's an overview of the last 24 hours. We'll focus our attention now to parts of it. The attack inside the city of Baghdad has been supported from what's become the American main base there, the airport in Baghdad. In short order, the Army's 3rd Infantry Division has turned the area into a fire base.

Here's Carl Dinnen of Britain's Channel 4 News.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARL DINNEN, CHANNEL 4 NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Rockets being launched from Baghdad Airport this morning as units here support the push into the city.

Overhead, A10 Warthogs circled, picking out Iraqi air defenses. This one releasing defensive decoys as it climbs away, but even they are no guarantee. One A10 was shot down near here today, the pilot lucky to be rescued.

Ground forces have suffered casualties. These soldiers were rehearsing for a memorial service for six of their comrades killed earlier this week, three in an RPG attack and three in a road accident.

This army is increasingly concerned about accidental casualties during combat.

This is 2-4 Artillery's missile launcher, "Anger Management," in Kuwait three weeks ago. This was it this morning after a fire in the launcher module.

SGT. TOM GALLEGOR, 2ND BATT. 4TH FIELD ARTILLERY: We just ran. You know, everybody was just saying "get out of there, get out of there," because of the munitions that were about to go off. We went and dived in the foxholes.

DINNEN: Although American forces control the airport, there are still one-off attacks from beyond the perimeter and on the convoy's moving in and out. Overall, though, things are clearing going there way.

LT. COL. BILL SPRAYBERRY, 2ND BATT. 4TH FIELD ARTILLERY: Overall, I think that the 3rd Infantry Division and all of the soldiers that are part of that big divisional combat team are meeting the secretary of the army and the chief of staff of the army's charter, which is we meet the nonnegotiable contract with the American people to fight and win our nation's wars, and I think we're doing exactly that.

DINNEN: Gunfire and fighting have been audible around the airport today and everyone here hopes that their colleagues at the front can soon get the job done, topple this regime and get them home.

No one knows when that time will be. Everyone feels it is getting rapidly closer.

Carl Dinnen, Channel 4 News, at Baghdad Airport. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: General Wesley Clark, how will we know that the city of Baghdad is owned by the Americans?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, Aaron, I think that's a very, very important question.

Obviously, if the shooting stops, that will be a good sign, but then there's another side to the coin and that is, we've got to get somebody there in charge who can represent the fact that Baghdad is not continuing to resist. Some political authority, some group of political authorities, some Imams, somebody who has contact with the local population.

Otherwise, a day or two gap in resistance followed by another attack of RPG's and sniping that could go on for a long time.

So there's a military dimension to it and there's a political dimension to it, and I would hope that we're moving as rapidly as possible to figure out a political game plan for that urban area.

BROWN: That person has to be an Iraqi, correct?

CLARK: Well, it would seem that that's the right approach, if we can find someone in authority to talk to. It's not going to be Saddam Hussein. Maybe there's a mayor there, maybe there's a city council that's Baathist, but then you don't know if you could trust them or not.

We're looking for somebody who can grab hold of the population and bring them around.

BROWN: The risk is creating -- might the risk be creating a political authority which is then not seen as having legitimacy?

CLARK: That's certainly one of the risks. And the other risk is that you're dealing with the same discredited regime, and giving them authority again in an effort to try to control.

And so, you know, this is a -- there's probably a Sunni majority group in there that's running Baghdad, and yet there's a huge Shia minority in southern Baghdad. Who represents those people?

And so, this needs to be sorted out almost concurrently with the end of the fighting.

BROWN: If you were General Tommy Franks and you're looking at Baghdad, what are you worried about? What's keeping you up at night?

CLARK: I think it's sort of your basic strategy. What you really don't know is if you get Saddam Hussein or you can really get into that bunker system and take out his command and control, will they still resist?

Are you ever going to be able to have a time where you can say, OK, that's it, fighting's finished, get Jay Garner (ph) in there and start working the humanitarian aid delivery. Baghdad is relatively secure. We'll patrol the streets. No flak jackets. Well, flak jackets, no chem -- no mop suits. And you know, we're just there and interfacing with the Iraqi people.

Or is it always going to be a potentially hostile armed presence in there that eventually looks so foreign that people hate you for it. That's what I would be worried about.

BROWN: More of the country uncontrolled by the coalition that it is controlled?

CLARK: That's certainly the case right now, and probably will continue to be the case.

Rich Enseci (ph), the army chief of staff, you may remember, said it would take 200,000 troops. He was disputed, and it's a figure that people are going to be working with. But I think the modality is clear. You put as many troops and marines as you have in there. You get as much presence locally as you can, and then area by area you thin out the forces as you find no problems.

But what you don't want to do is start light in this phase and then end up losing a grip on some significant, sizeable portion.

BROWN: Just -- we're just focusing here a little bit -- I think you can see this -- on sort of the path the coalition and mostly the Americans have taken to get where they are now, and where they are now is largely having encircled the capitol and they have control of the roadways over the capitol. But it's certainly an overstatement to say that they have control within the capitol, isn't it?

CLARK: It is an overstatement, Aaron. They don't have control within the capitol.

As they've said, there are still groups of fighters in there that, when they say there's no organized resistance, it means -- I think it means they can't find a successful perimeter of defense within which they couldn't penetrate if they moved with their armored columns. But that doesn't mean there aren't areas that are full of resistance and will fight back.

Plus you have the problem of Tikrit in the north, Mosul, Kirkuk and this large area in which there are still reportedly several Iraqi divisions, or at least remnants of divisions, and a command and control structure in place with a Sunni population.

BROWN: So there's plenty of danger still out there and plenty of work.

General, we'll get back to you in a moment.

We focused here on Baghdad. It's clear there's still plenty of fighting, as the general indicated, in little towns and villages all over the country.

CNN's Ryan Chilcote was riding with the 101st Airborne when its 3rd Brigade mounted an assault in town called Hillah.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The attack began with U.S. armor, artillery and helicopters. Close behind, the light infantry from the 101st Airborne's Rakkasans, meeting resistance even before they reached the outskirts.

We had three cameras rolling during the firefight. These pictures from CNN engineer Brad Simcox (ph).

Small arms fire came from both sides of the road, then a bush.

(on camera): Three soldiers were wounded in the firefight when two fighters came out of this bush right over here. The first with his hands up in the air, the second right behind him, lobbing a grenade. That is as far as those fighters got.

(voice-over): One of the two shot in the head, the second killed by a grenade.

The soldiers then went for the agricultural complex. Before it was all over, the soldiers were smoking some of the first cigarettes they've seen in a while, courtesy of one of the estimated dozen fighters killed.

Mohammad (ph), a schoolteacher who lives across the street, claims the fighters were mercenaries from outside Iraq.

MOHAMMAD (ph), HILLAH RESIDENT: These are Syrian, Egyptian.

CHILCOTE: There were no ID's found in the agricultural complex nor in their camp, where mealtime had clearly been interrupted.

One of the three wounded U.S. soldiers was sent to a MASH unit, but is expected to recover. After treatment, the other two have already reported back for duty.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne 3rd Brigade, on the outskirts of Hillah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Take a break. When we come back, we'll talk, we hope, with Michael Gordon, the chief military affairs writer of "The New York Times" on the plan and whether it is going according to plan, but we take a break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: President Bush returned today from a quick summit with Britain's Tony Blair. Much of what they talked about centered on the role of the United Nations in post-war Iraq.

CNN's Bill Schneider joins us tonight with more on what that might mean, or whether it is even necessary. Good evening -- Mr. Schneider.

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN ANALYST: Good evening.

You know, the United Nations refused to participate in this war, so the question is, why should the United Nations participate in the management of the post-war outcome?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): "Only countries that shed life and blood to liberate Iraq will take the lead in remaking Iraq," National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice said last week. Sounds reasonable.

But there are a lot of voices out there arguing that the United Nations should have a key role. One of them, the United Nations.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: But above all, the United Nations involvement does bring legitimacy.

SCHNEIDER: Hold on now. Is Secy. Annan implying that having won the war, the United States would not have legitimate authority to run Iraq? Well, yes, because the rest of the world did not recognize the legitimacy of this war, and the United States does not want to be seen as an occupying force.

SEN. CARL LEVIN, (D) MICHIGAN: I think it's critically important for all kinds of reasons that this not be an American occupation.

SCHNEIDER: British Prime Minister Tony Blair is known to favor a major role for the United Nations. He's worried about a rising tide of anti-American that could unite Europe and the Arab world and put Britain on the spot.

So Bush and Blair have worked out a convenient formula.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MIN.: This new Iraq that will emerge is not to be run either by us or indeed by the United Nations. That is a false choice. It will be run by the Iraqi people.

GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: From day one, we have said the Iraqi people are capable of running their own country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Nice try, but it begs the question: Iraq cannot become a democracy overnight. For the time being, somebody has to choose the government. The question is, who.

BROWN: The question is, who chooses it and who is that government, and complicating all of this is, the longer the Americans stay, the more anti-American feeling builds up, at least in the region -- at least.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. It's very powerful throughout the Arab world and, you know, interestingly, I have just reviewed polls from all over Europe, and it turns out, since the war began, support for the war has increased only in two countries, the United States and Britain, the two countries doing the fighting.

There has been no increase in support for the war in any country that I can find in Europe, including Russia. France, Germany -- even Spain and Italy, whose governments have been supportive of President Bush, they have remained -- the people there have remained adamantly anti-American.

BROWN: So -- well -- is support for the war or opposition to the war the same as being anti-American?

SCHNEIDER: Well, it's certainly anti-Bush, and there is growing criticism of the United States, and, you know, President Putin of Russia called a meeting this weekend with Jacques Chirac, the president of France, and Gerhard Schroeder, the chancellor of Germany.

Something could be happening here that could be very, very dangerous -- namely, the effort to form a new Europe, politically defined as anti-American, because right now, France in particular, and to some extent also Germany and Russia, believe that only Europe can be a check and balance on an American administration that the Europeans see as reckless and bullying.

And they see anti-Americanism as a widespread sentiment that's been growing and that can unify Europe and give Europe something in common with the Arab world.

BROWN: Talked to a high official in the United Nations today, who still held out hope that there was an important role for the United Nations to add to perhaps counterbalance exactly the same you're talking about. Does not seem likely to happen.

SCHNEIDER: Well, the British are trying to make that happen, because the British are on the spot. They do not want to be part of an anti-American Europe. That's why they are insistent that the United Nations play a crucial role to try to counteract this growing tendency for Europe to define itself as an anti-American power.

BROWN: Bill, thank you -- Bill Schneider.

Trudy Rubin joins us now. She's a foreign affair columnist with "The Philadelphia Inquirer." Prior to that, she covered the Middle East for "The Christian Science Monitor, and it's nice to have you on the program.

TRUDY RUBIN, "THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER": Nice to be here.

BROWN: I think we'll just continue this conversation along.

You wrote today that you believe that the president is serious when he talks about want a democracy in Iraq, but you're not entirely sure he understands what that mans.

RUBIN: Well, I think that if the president wants a democracy in Iraq, what is absolutely essential is that there has to be a turnover to Iraqis as soon as possible, and those Iraqis have to be seen as legitimate, both at home and overseas, in the Middle East and in the world.

And that really brings us back to this question that Bil Schneider was talking about, how do you make this legitimate.

And I think that President Bush may be missing an opportunity here.

I have a column that I've written for tomorrow in which I'm talking about the misunderstanding of the role that the United Nations could play, because I think what the United Nations could be is what Secretary Powell referred to as an international chapeau. An international hat over the political process.

That does not mean that the United Nations would run Iraq, as the French have suggested. In fact, Kofi Annan said that that would be wrong, because Iraq is not East Timor. Iraq is not Kosovo. It has -- it's a real country and there's a bureaucracy there that can be put back together again.

So it's not a question of running all the reconstruction. It's a question of being the chapeau over an international conference at which an interim government would be chosen. And I think if you're going to have a democracy, you have to have an Iraqi leadership that is looked on not as an American puppet but as something new which brings new hope for Iraqis.

BROWN: Do you think it's fair to say that, to many Americans, they have a very bad taste in their mouth from the debate of 1441 and what would follow 1441, and there isn't a lot of political weight in the United States today to see a very active United Nations role?

RUBIN: I think that's totally understandable, but I think sometimes people forget that the United Nations is basically an instrument which is used by its members.

When it came to 1441, it was used and abused by members.

I think the question is what the United States wants to achieve and how it can best achieve that and whether the United Nations is an instrument that can give that legitimacy that I think even people, some people in this administration, understand is vital if the United States is ever going to be able to get out of Iraq after establishing a government.

BROWN: Not to beat this to death, but you have a lot of people, particularly within the president's own party, and on the most conservative wings of his party who, you don't even have to read between the lines. They seem to have no use for the U.N. at all.

RUBIN: Right, but the problem is then everything is on the American's heads and then if the Americans are seen as picking the members of an Iraqi interim authority, then every group in Iraq that's dissatisfied with who's in and who's out is going to blame the United States. Then some people inside Iraq, maybe many people, will look on this as a sort of continuation of the British occupation of the past, and the United States is going to have all kinds of problems in sort of enabling the transfer to a government that is better than what was before.


Aired April 8, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. The consequences of war intended and unintended seem to be the focus of our four hours tonight. Civilian casualties, including the deaths of a number of journalists, as we were leaving the air yesterday or early this morning.
And the post-war Iraq. Who will be the players? How will they get in place? All of that and more in the four hours ahead.

We begin as we do each night with a broad look at the pieces in play. Especially so tonight. The pieces still very much in limbo, a lot of unknowns right now, much still hidden in the fog of war. But make no mistake, the war goes on, and increasingly it goes on inside Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Fires from large-scale urban combat continue to burn in Baghdad as night fell. Some American units are not only inside the city, they may have control of some Iraqi government buildings. They are receiving reinforcements. In the American view, according to one commander, we are expanding and we are squeezing.

MAJ. GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We're starting to bring in regular re-supply activities, so what we're really demonstrating is an ability to do whatever it is General Franks wants to do.

BROWN: But as everyone knows by now, the Iraqis have a vote. And on the streets, many young men out-gunned badly by the Americans are playing a life and death game of cat and mouse with the U.S. Army.

Crews worked through the rubble of what was a building and a restaurant in downtown Baghdad. The site of an American air attack 24 hours earlier aimed at killing Saddam Hussein and his top leaders. The four-man crew of the Air Force B-41 bomber that delivered the strike was already in the air over Baghdad when the order came.

LT. COL. FRED SWANN, U.S. AIR FORCE: I did not know who was there. To me, when they said priority leadership target, it's anybody that's in the regime. And I really didn't care. You know the job was to go put the bombs on the target and then worry about that later.

BROWN: An A-10 tank killer like this one was shot down over Baghdad. The pilot later rescued. Late today, news as well of a lost of F-15; search and rescue is underway. Outside of the city American soldiers were still battling in villages and in the desert. This unit of the 101st Airborne got caught up in a fierce firefight with what commanders said was a local militia opposition, not the regular Iraqi army. It was in a village called Hillah, 50 or so miles south of the capital, not far from the ancient city of Babylon.

And in the southeastern suburbs of Baghdad, the Marines took a military airfield. Found more chemical protective suits and destroyed an Iraqi arsenal. CNN's Martin Savidge was there to watch.

MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN ANCHOR: ... and so the Marines quickly went about the job of destroying it. This is sort of demolition that is done on the fly here. The Marines are obviously still trying to push forward through their objectives.

BROWN: First pictures today from an Iraqi prison in Basra. Headquarters of the secret police there. With smoke still smoldering in the bombed out building, local residents were free to speak for the first time in decades of how so many had been tortured and killed.

And back in Baghdad, there was a candlelight vigil for the reporters and cameramen killed in bitter fighting 24 hours ago. This correspondent for Al-Jazeera network died. So, too, did cameramen from Spanish television and from Reuters.

In both incidents, American commanders said their tanks had received fire from buildings where the journalists had their headquarters. This building for Al-Jazeera and the Palestine Hotel for the two cameramen.

There were angry denials about this from the journalists on the ground in Baghdad. But wherever the truth lies, as the U.S. Central Command said in a statement, these events serve as a tragic reminder of just how dangerous life is on the battlefield. And Baghdad tonight is still a battlefield.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So that's the big picture tonight, and we start putting the smaller pieces of the puzzle in place. It goes without saying, if we had an answer to the big question of this war, that question, you know the one, you would have heard about it by now: is he alive or not? That said, how the air strike on Saddam Hussein came to be is fascinating in and of itself.

Our national security correspondent David Ensor has spent his day working on that, and David joins us tonight from Washington. David, good evening.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. Well, this is very sensitive stuff, how the U.S. collects intelligence on something as critical as this. Still, today we did learn a little more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ENSOR (voice-over): A knowledgeable U.S. official says the intelligence that led to the strike came from an eyewitness who said he thought he saw Saddam Hussein, possibly one or more of his two sons, and other senior officials go into the building. The bombs hit just 45 minutes after U.S. intelligence gave military commanders that information. U.S. officials say they still do not know whether they killed the Iraqi leader.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: You know I don't know whether he survived. The only thing I know is he is losing power.

ENSOR: Officials say it may be some time before the U.S. can be sure whether Saddam Hussein is alive. They are tracking Iraqi communications to see whether anyone refers to his status. Meantime, U.S. officials say efforts to track down Saddam Hussein will continue.

KENNETH POLLACK, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: It's a very hard target. Saddam is paranoid. He is very good about his security. And my guess is U.S. forces are trying to take advantage of every possible lead out there.

ENSOR: The Iraqi regime has an extensive network of deep underground hardened bunkers under Baghdad. Some of them were built in the '80s under contract by Swiss, German and Yugoslav engineers; others more recently by Iraqis. U.S. officials say they are not sure whether the buildings that were hit have bunkers were under them. However, if it turns out there is a bunker beneath the site, experts say while the 2,000-pound bunker-buster bombs are highly effective, the target information must be very precise.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: One expert said if the bunker-buster bomb misses the room where the targeted individuals are by just about 15 feet, a foot thick reinforced concrete wall can protect the occupants for more than perhaps some damage to their hearing -- Aaron.

BROWN: OK David, you said in the piece that they'll be listening to the chatter. They'll listen to communications to try to pick up clues to whether he is dead or alive. Presumably, they've been doing that all along. Does that suggest that they have known he was alive from the crosstalk and the chatter?

ENSOR: It has been the working assumption of U.S. intelligence that, for some days, for some weeks, I would say, that they did not succeed in killing Saddam Hussein on March 19th, when they started the fight by trying to kill him. They didn't know for sure. They felt they might have.

They thought they had intelligence that he was there. But the consensus was it's best to assume he's still alive. And for the moment, they're going to go ahead and assume that now as well.

They are not sure they got him this time either. So there are still, for example, you can assume, CIA teams and paramilitary teams moving around Baghdad, looking for information, seeking to -- in case he is still alive -- find him.

BROWN: And I'm not sure if this is answerable or not, but I will try. The source here must have been, in their view, an awfully good source to go ahead and drop four of those big bombs in what is a crowded residential neighborhood where there were bound to be civilian casualties as well?

ENSOR: I think you're right. I think they were fairly confident with their information. They felt it was likely that there were at least some of the top senior leaders there, and they still say that there were. And that there was a good chance Saddam was there as well. But you know the officials you speak to now will say, we don't know for sure, we just don't.

BROWN: Some day we will know. David, thank you. David Ensor on the Saddam matter.

To the Pentagon next. Late developments, progress, mistakes made as well. A very full day for our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre, who's with us as always again tonight. Jamie, good evening to you.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. Well, the situation in Baghdad is that the United States feels that it is controlling more and more territory. They have pushed out from these presidential palaces where they've set up a foothold in the city and are controlling more and more of the city, but they don't have the city under control by any means.

They do control now the airports on both sides of town. Including the Rashid Airbase which was taken by the Marines. And they are pursuing a strategy to essentially slice up the city into areas of their control and try to isolate the regime.

Meanwhile, the fighting has been fairly intense. The Pentagon described it as just pockets of resistance, but some of those pockets have been fairly resistant. We are seeing that there are still Saddam Hussein loyalists who are willing to fight to the death, using mostly small arms and rocket-propelled grenades to go against the U.S. troops. And one senior Defense official said to me, as he was reviewing some of the battle reports, saying, "I'd hope to say by now that we had taken Baghdad, but it looks like we're not quite there yet" -- Aaron.

BROWN: I think there's been a sense over last couple of days since the troops got to Baghdad that more of it was under coalition control than it turns out to be. We are really talking about a couple of small pockets in what is a very large city, right?

MCINTYRE: That's right. Although they do point out that these two presidential palaces, they have extended the perimeter around them considerably in the last 24 hours. They also say that they have a presence on a lot more Baghdad streets than they had. They don't pretend to control those streets. And of course the addition of the airport and the other airport and other things in the suburbs does give them more area of control. Now the 4th Infantry Division, which you recall was supposed to come in through the north, sources tell me that it's going to probably start moving into southern Iraq by the end of this week and start to move up to the north. That will give the U.S. additional manpower if they needed to continue fighting there.

In addition, source say that heavy armor is beginning to be flown into the north. You know the forces in the north really haven't had the kind of firepower that the forces in the south have had. They're going to start to get some of that heavy armor flown in on C-17s now that the U.S. controls those airfields in the north.

That will also give them a way to start pushing south with some much more firepower than they have now. So the big squeeze play is still on.

BROWN: And on the subject of the north, there is still a search and rescue operation going on for two lost pilots in the north?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's not clear exactly what their status is.

BROWN: OK.

MCINTYRE: And the Pentagon's not talking much about it. What we know is the plane went down on Sunday. They didn't say anything about it initially.

It went down in the area of Tikrit, which is, from the U.S. perspective, hostile territory. Not an area that U.S. has control in. We don't know the fate of the two pilots.

The search technically is still under way. We don't know exactly what efforts they're making, but obviously they're not discussing details of that.

BROWN: Do they believe it went down from hostile fire?

MCINTYRE: They haven't said.

BROWN: OK. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

More now on the fighting and the incidents that involved the deaths of a number of journalists, as we were leaving the air early this morning. This is a topic that has dominated the discussion or has -- one of the topics at least that has dominated the discussion throughout the day. It's a sensitive topic obviously to reporters and to many of you watching.

Rym Brahimi is following the developments. She is working sources from her listing post in Amman, Jordan, and she joins us from there tonight. Nice to see you.

RYM BRAHIMI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Same here, Aaron. Well, more targets again in the Iraqi capital. Tonight included -- or this afternoon included the Baath Party headquarters and the Ministry of Information again. But now basically, Aaron, this is war in the middle of the city.

This is what many people have been fearing. And with this urban warfare, the war has definitely taken a new turn.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRAHIMI (voice-over): Exchange of fire between Iraqi and U.S. troops took the battle from the presidential compound said to be under U.S. control to the Ministry of Planning nearby, and then onto the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Bridge further north, as U.S. troops advanced deeper into the Iraqi capital.

Al-Jazeera journalist Tariq Ayoub was killed, and his colleague was injured, when the TV organization's office on the Tigris River was hit in the every hours of the morning.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through )translator: Our colleagues who were at the offices confirm and believe that this bombing was deliberate. They were hit by two missiles, not one. And the second bombing of Abu Dhabi offices confirm their view.

BRAHIMI: That second bombing took Abu Dhabi TV off the air for four hours. A U.S. State Department spokesman said on Al-Jazeera TV that the bombing was not deliberate.

Both of the houses hit are located on the west side of Baghdad. A residential enclave near a state-run hotel surrounded by government buildings. Moving from the west side of town to the east side of the river, U.S. tanks on the bridge were reportedly being fired at from the Palestine Hotel, according to a U.S. military spokesman.

The Palestine, home to dozens of local and international journalists covering the war, was hit by at least one shell from a U.S. tank. The Reuters journalist was killed and three others wounded in their makeshift office on the 15th floor. A Spanish journalist was also killed.

Red Cross officials say hospitals are now overwhelmed with the stream of casualties. And one of the main Baghdad high-tech hospitals is now without water and electricity. As U.S.-led forces bring the war into the heart of the Iraqi capital, the conflict is taking a new even more deadly turn for residents in Baghdad and the journalists covering the conflict.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRAHIMI: Aaron, you were saying how sensitive it was for us journalists, for us in the journalistic community to see three of our colleagues killed like this. It is very sensitive.

I just spoke a while ago to one of the journalists that was wounded. She was in a hospital in Baghdad. She was just about to have surgery to have piece of shrapnel removed from her head.

But her's is a story that we can tell. And if journalists like her that are still in Baghdad that have made the choice to stay in the Iraqi capital throughout the fighting are intimidated or pushed or led to leave by such actions, well, it does put a lot of questions. It raises a lot of questions. And it also raises the question of who will speak for those civilian casualties that are caught in the crossfire as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. Let's leave those questions on the table for a bit, because we'll have a variety of voices throughout the night to talk about some of them. What is -- Al-Jazeera, it seems to me -- I was listening to "LARRY KING" coming down, and they backed off a bit on this sense that they thought they were deliberately targeted. That they're at least now open to the notion that it ought to be investigated and let's find out what happened.

Is there, in the Arab community where you are, and as you watch feeds coming in, is the story being played as the Americans were deliberately targeting reporters?

BRAHIMI: Well, it's very, very much the question that's been put. Not only on the Arab media, but you talk to people here, and definitely the question is, was this really an accident? And the reason for that, they point out when I speak to people, Aaron, is they say that that's three incidents, three separate incidents in one day.

One of them involving Abu Dhabi that was hit by a tank shell, another one involving the Al-Jazeera house that was hit by a missile. And then the Palestine Hotel hit yet by another tank shell. And so that in the region, in the part of the world that, as you know, is quite inclined to see plots very often and complicity theories. Well, that of course in many people's minds -- there is no doubt that this was intentional.

And a lot of people that are journalists here watching what's happening in Baghdad, as I am. A lot of people are asking, well, what's going to happen next? Are these journalists going to leave? And does that mean that the only people who are going to be able to report out of Baghdad will be the journalists that are embedded and all the Iraqi local journalists -- Aaron.

BROWN: Rym, thank you. We'll be hearing from you throughout the night as well.

We quickly turn to General Wesley Clark, who is back in Washington tonight. General Clark, let's deal with this one first. Perception has a way of becoming reality in lots of places, not just the Arab part of the world. So whether the intent was -- and that's I think clearly open to question what the intent was -- the perception seems pretty clear, and that's a problem for the Americans.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Aaron, it is. And we need to make it as clear as possible what it was like for those guys who were fighting through that column and those tanks.

Imagine yourself in that armor column, you're receiving fire from several directions.

You're not quite sure where you are in Baghdad. Maybe your company commander knows that. He may have a GPS system that says, hey, there is the Rashid Hotel right around the corner. But you're in the tank, and all you can hear is the cling, cling of small arms fire, the tank commanders saying look right, traverse left, we are getting fire from up there.

And you realize that every infantryman, every small arm's guy, every sniper the next minute could put that rifle down and pick up a rocket-propelled grenade, which could be lethal to a Bradley fighting vehicle or a tank. It's only natural that if you have that in the case, you know that's the threat, you fire whatever weapons you have at the source of the enemy's fire.

That could be a tank gun. That could be a machine gun. It could be a Bradley 25-millimeter cannon. But it's all part of the fight, and you're dealing with men who are under fire and anxious to protect themselves. And they have every right to do.

It is nothing about targeting people specifically. It's not personal. This is war.

BROWN: Implicit in the theory that the journalists were targeted it seems to me is that this decision was made somewhere in the chain of command. How much freedom does a tank commander, an individual soldier have to make a decision to return fire, if that's what it is, or to target something if that's what it was?

CLARK: Well, the soldier is given rules of engagement. In other words, he's going to be told, don't shoot at civilians unless you are receiving fire. Don't shoot at buildings unless you are receiving fire from that building.

But then when he receives the fire, he certainly has the freedom to fire back and protect himself, engage the incoming source of fire as accurately as possible, as discriminately as possible. But he will return fire. And if he sees the enemy first before the enemy shoots, and the enemy's aiming a rifle or is in uniform or whatever, he has the authority to fire.

The other part of your question, Aaron, is could someone centrally have directed this? And the idea that you could go through eight or 10 levels of the chain of command down through the level of a tank commander, and say, by the way, when you get to the Al Rashid, knock it off, is -- I mean it's beyond the ludicrous.

Soldiers don't take orders that way. Units don't function that way. Orders can't be given that way. And they would be viewed as illegal if they were.

BROWN: But again, back to the beginning, perception has a way of becoming a reality. And in the context of the civilian casualties that certainly have mounted up and will continue to mount up, this is all part of the broader problem the Americans face in winning the peace.

CLARK: That's exactly right. And remember, as we were talking the other night, Saddam probably has three goals in his this fight for Baghdad. No. 1, to kill as many Americans as he can. No. 2, to delay it as long as possible. And No. 3, to make us do as much damage to the infrastructure and kill as many innocent civilians as he can. In that sense, attacking the Al Rashid Hotel today was a success for Saddam.

BROWN: General, it's good to have you with us. General Clark will be with us for the first couple of hours tonight. We will take a break.

David Halberstam, legendary war correspondent and author, joins us after the break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We can imagine some of the simple things that troops in Iraq want more than anything else, a good meal, a letter from home, a moment's rest, and something else, a smile and a friendly wave. Iraq is a very complicated place these days. The Americans not received well everywhere, but nor are they opposed everywhere either.

One group of Marines got plenty of good feelings today as they traveled in eastern Iraq. Here is CNN's Alessio Vinci.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALESSIO VINCI, CNN CORRSPONDENT (voice-over): Approaching the town of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in eastern Iraq, a crowd of civilians on the bridge. They turn out to be an impromptu welcoming committee, jubilant civilians very happy to see the Americans. In broken English, they tell us why the Americans are so welcomed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Make us happy and the freedom.

VINCI: The crowds so enthusiastic had to be controlled with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) wire (UNINTELLIGIBLE) children pushed from behind.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The atmosphere here has been extremely positive. They are clapping, cheering, and have been very jovial, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

VINCI: U.S. Marines now still worry the Iraqi paramilitaries could be disguised as civilians and attack. So despite the euphoria, they keep all civilians at a safe distance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are telling them we are the military. We're not here to be their friends, not yet. We have our job to do, and part of that job is being hampered by them being up here on our position.

VINCI: But these military men show they have a heart, and following brief negotiations and a search, the Marines allow this farmer to take his livestock across the bridge.

(on camera): U.S. Marines welcome the friendly crowd, but they also say that they came here because they have reports that remnants of the Iraqi 10th armored division are still active in this area. Are there any soldiers here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No soldiers. All of them go to their home.

VINCI (voice-over): People here tell us they forced all of the soldiers to leave town or to stay at home. This man also says there are no more Baath Party members either. Over the next few days, one job of the Marines here will be to determine if those claims are true. Alessio Vinci, CNN, with the U.S. Marines, near (UNINTELLIGIBLE), Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're always pleased when David Halberstam joins us. He has joined us on more than one occasion. Mr. Halberstam is a well respected writer. And many years back in other wars he was a legendary war correspondent in both Vietnam and in the Congo, as I recall. David joins us from New York tonight.

It's nice to see you. I don't want to spend all of our time or even most of our time talking about the reporters here. But just a quick minute. Is there something about this war in this situation that makes it particularly dangerous for journalists?

DAVID HALBERSTAM, AUTHOR: I think, one, the immediacy, the fact that the journalists are right up there, and so much of it I suppose is done by photographers, that they have to be at the cutting edge. I mean there's not much in the way of being back at the cable head the way you were, say, in World War II or other wars.

You do it by being there. The technology has made that possible. You can report from the very cutting edge, and it's always dangerous.

I mean this is a very ugly, mean war. Both sides -- the Americans have a lot of technology, and the Iraqis are on their home territory and are probably going to break into guerrilla units.

BROWN: Well let's talk about the future here. One of the things -- one of the great questions in this is how will we know as a country that we have won the war? Do you see that answer in the next year, five years, the next generation, ever?

HALBERSTAM: I'm afraid that I think that there's -- I heard that today, you know, talking about when we've won or when the war's won. And getting to Baghdad and even sort of seemingly pacifying -- seemingly pacifying Baghdad may not end the war. And what we may think is the 15th round of a 15-round fight may be round one in that region.

And I want to specify region rather than just Iraq. Because the impact of what we're doing is regional. The recruiting may happen elsewhere in other Arab Islamic countries. mot necessarily just in Iraq.

The powerful impact of these images going through that region may have a slower fuse than we Americans tend to expect. We've become a supremely impatient country, and we want it clean, over, militarily done.

I don't think it's going to work that way. I think, for instance, the most important technological advance when we look back 25 years from now may not just be the reporters up there at night with the night cameras on them, or the awesome new weaponry, it may be the fact that, for the first time, this war is going out live and in color in the Arab world, with Arab networks, with Arab voices commenting on these images.

That may be, in fact, the most important technological development since Gulf War One. And, therefore, the fuse may be a much slower burning fuse.

BROWN: David, hang with us for a second. Let me bring General Clark in, because I know he is chomping at the bit to get in on this -- General, go ahead.

HALBERSTAM: Hello, General. How are you?

CLARK: Hello, David. Good to see you tonight.

HALBERSTAM: I see you have been embedded in CNN, Wesley.

CLARK: It's a great privilege to be able to compliment the troops and watch this operation unfold. But I share your concerns on the potential for expansion here.

One of the reports that came out in the press today reported some 5,000 Syrians are now engaged in the fight, according to one of the Syrians who surrendered at the airport. And this may be just the tip of the iceberg. We don't know the durability of it, but clearly the longer the fighting goes on, the greater the potential to draw in others.

And Aaron, just one additional point of sort of the flipside of what David is saying. If you look at our objectives in this, to unravel the chain of proliferation, it's going to lead to other nations in the region. And we're already telling them, as the secretary of defense, deputy secretary of defense have said, look at the lesson of Iraq. That lesson means it could happen there.

BROWN: David, let me give you the last word. Do you think Americans by and large are focused on this long view of what means peace? Or have they focused to this point on the narrow view, let's take Baghdad, let's get rid of Saddam, however you frame it?

HALBERSTAM: Well, I think the administration has taken the latter. I think the American people are more uneasy, they are wary. I think when I go out and say -- and you know I'm somewhat melancholy about this because the prism through which I see things is Vietnam. I have a feeling that we have punched our hand into the largest hornet's nest in the world, and therefore the consequences in the region are very -- are likely to be very difficult in other countries.

I have a feeling that people are ready to hear that. I think they support the troops and are very uneasy about anything that pulls us into a larger and perhaps escalating confrontation in a part of the world they don't know much about. But when they learn more, they are very uneasy with. They see lots of dangers there.

BROWN: David, as always, we look forward to see youing you back in New York soon. Thank you.

HALBERSTAM: Nice to be here.

BROWN: Author and reporter David Halberstam.

We will take a break, update the day's headlines. Our coverage continues in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We have followed the 3rd Infantry 7th Cavalry Division since the very beginning of the war, through the dash up the deserts in Iraq, all the way to the airport in Baghdad.

We turn again to Walter Rodgers, who is with that group, is still with them. And we're glad see him tonight.

Walt, good evening.

WALT RODGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron.

The 7th Cavalry continues to hold a flanking position on the southern suburbs of Baghdad. We have moved over the past several days, flanking in the sense that what are we doing is protecting the soft underbelly or the underbelly of the 7th Brigade, which is -- 2nd Brigade, which is already in the city of Baghdad.

Having said that, interestingly, there is more and more intercourse with the Iraqi population, particularly in the southern suburbs of Baghdad. Increasingly, the Army's role is transitioning from being a combat unit to a problem-solver. There's been a collapse, of course, of civil government, or uncivil government, if you will, in Baghdad. And the Army finds itself increasingly approached by Iraqi civilians. One came up to the 7th Cavalry yesterday, presented a handwritten note someone else had obviously written in English and said: I came to retrieve a dead body. I am unarmed.

Others are looking for automobiles. Others are offering to help the Army or perhaps help the Army retrieve dead American bodies. One soldier came -- or, excuse me, one Iraqi came up yesterday and said privately to a soldier he knew where there was an American who had been executed by the Fedayeen. The Army was very suspicious, because this could have been an ambush.

When this Iraqi was told privately: Now, you realize we will take you there under escort to this alleged unmarked grave. When we take you there, what we're going to do is -- if we come under fire, we will personally shoot you. Suddenly, this man disappeared.

Much of what we are doing now, 7th Cavalry, is following the advice of the local civilian population, who are leading the Army into areas where are there huge caches of huge Iraqi weapons, tanks, armored personnel carriers. And for the past two or three days, the Army has simply been blowing up big tank units which were abandoned by deserting Iraqi soldiers -- Aaron.

BROWN: After so many days of fighting that the cavalry unit you're with has had, all the way through that last third of their ride up into Baghdad, after so many days of that fighting, how are they dealing with this more quiet time?

RODGERS: It's not frustrating. They came here to fight. They believe they've fought well. And, by every indication, they have. I spoke with one officer last night and he was very frustrated. He threw up his hands and said: Look, they come to me with 20 problems to solve and I have only have five answers -- excuse me, 25 problems -- and I only have five answers to their problems.

Most of them are getting restive. That is to say, they're waiting for the 4th Infantry Division to arrive from Kuwait to relieve them. I asked many of the soldiers last night, when there was the thought that Saddam Hussein and his sons may have been killed in that blockbuster bomb blast, and I asked them -- I said: How would you feel if this turned out to be the case?

Each soldier I talked to, save one, said: Just relieved. We came here to get a job done. That would mean we have accomplished our job. One or two of the soldiers was particularly prescient. One said at the time: I won't believe it and I don't know any of these Iraqi citizens will believe it until they come up with a lot more proof.

I think that's a pretty general feeling around here -- Aaron.

BROWN: And, as quickly as you can, do they feel the danger for them, the personal danger for them, has passed?

RODGERS: They can feel that there is a certain -- the immediacy of the threat has gone. Having said that, every one of these soldiers knows that, the moment they let their guard down, they become extremely vulnerable. And, as their commanding officer said, there's still more fighting ahead. What he said was: We're going to not be safe, really safe, until we are back in Fort Stewart, Georgia -- Aaron.

BROWN: Walt, thank you -- Walt Rodgers in -- or outside of Baghdad tonight.

We'll take a break. Our coverage continues in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL NEELY, ITN REPORTER (voice-over): Saddam Hussein's Iraq is a state of terror, and this is where it's planned and perpetrated, the headquarters of his secret police, this one in Basra. No British soldier has been here yet. Today, as I walked in, I met Iraqis, none of whom had ever been inside willingly.

What was to follow was a horrific education in terror and torture: in the smoking basement of the bombed building, a warren of cells. Here, prisoners were tortured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, of course.

NEELY: People died.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People died, people in prison without court, without trial.

NEELY: Any people who Saddam did not like.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course. Of course.

NEELY (voice-over): The building is crumbling. Down we went, further to cells that had no light, little air, cockroaches, filth, and, on the ground, a gas mask and bottles of chemicals.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can imagine this every day, every month. So many people come here, but we don't know about them at all.

NEELY: These ordinary Iraqis had been terrified to come here, until today, though one student on the left had been here before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was one of the prisoners here.

(on camera): For how long?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eight years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eight, nine, eight years.

NEELY (voice-over): And his crime for eight years in jail? He prayed too much and was seen as a dangerous radical.

(on camera): More cells.

(voice-over): But the Mukhabarat headquarters had more horrors to reveal.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they tied their hands behind and hung them and hung them for many days.

NEELY: These men had relatives murdered here. So desperate are they to tell their story that they began reenacting what they and their brothers and friends have suffered.

The hook in the ceiling is for one purpose only, another hook in a different cell and a different form of torture. Saddam Hussein controlled Iraq through fear, torture and execution. And it happened here to tens of thousands of Iraqis that Saddam's secret police deemed dangerous.

This man cowered for months, crammed with 300 mothers into a huge cell. Hamid Fatil (ph) may look like he's acting, but he was tortured here, along with his two brothers, who were executed.

This man was here, too, with his brother.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They sentenced him to death. And they sent him to Baghdad and killed. He was hanged there, hanged.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a prisoner under the name of Ahmed Adis Aeid (ph).

NEELY: They kept records of prisoners, these and their fingerprints all that's left of them, apart from the photographs they took of exactly what they had done.

(on camera): If there is an evil center to Saddam Hussein's regime, then it is surely here and in other places of torture. And there's plenty here that we simply cannot show you. In this block, it was men over here, hundreds of them, and women and children here.

(voice-over): To call all this a chamber of horrors is a cliche. And this place is beyond cliche. The hundreds or thousands who died here who were given no trial, no voice, cry out.

On the ground, I found a book called "The Psychology of Interrogation," as if the men who worked here for Saddam needed a handbook. I was glad of the fresh air and glad to leave, glad I could. No one knows yet whether the new Iraq will be the kind of place where these children can grow up free of the fear, the horror of torture.

Bill Neely, ITV News, Basra.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, we've put a lot out there in the first 48 minutes tonight. We'll start with that report after a break. And we'll be joined again by General Wes Clark.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: General Wesley Clark joins us again.

General, setting aside all of the debating about whether there should have been a war or should not have been a war and what will happen after the war and how will we know the war was won, everybody, most everybody, knew this was a bad, evil regime. And so it ought be no surprise, but it's still awfully powerful when you see the evidence of how evil it could be.

CLARK: I agree.

I mean, when I saw those pictures, I just was overcome with horror and grief for those people. And yet we know that's just scratching the surface. There's going to be lots more that will come out. And I'm not at all surprised at the photographs and the detailed records. I think there will be films and lots more when we get into the palaces of Saddam and look at some of the things he has done to his opponents. It will be horrifying.

BROWN: This is probably better asked of a psychologist than a general, but this was true in Nazi Germany, too. It's true in lots of places. There is an odd human trait to keep records on these sorts of things.

CLARK: There is.

And, of course, the same was the case in Stalinist Russia. Some of those records have been released. There's probably many that have never been released by the KGB on some of the things that happened in communist Russia. And there are other places in the world where this is still going on also.

But there is a certain psychology of evil, as though it's not enough that it be committed. It has to be substantiated, proved and delivered to the highest authorities.

BROWN: Let's talk a bit about some of the things that Walt Rodgers was talking about. Anything in that report, which was essentially the report of a quiet day and a unit going about its business -- anything in that report that jumped out at you as either troubling or unusual?

CLARK: Well, the first thing is, I wasn't sure how quiet a day it was, because they just fought off a counterattack there, as I read the reports, a day or two ago. And there's always a possibility of some of these guys reinfiltrating and giving them trouble. So they must be really still on high alert there, weapons charged and ready to go, and a very high degree of security.

But other thing that struck me, Aaron, was when he talked about going out and blowing out these tank parks, where the vehicles had been abandoned. And maybe that's the mystery of what happened to the missing vehicles, because we heard that the divisions had been pounded. They had sort of melted away. But then we couldn't -- it didn't seem quite right, because we didn't get the photographs. We didn't get the count of all these vehicles that had been destroyed.

Two things: No. 1, I wonder why we couldn't get them from the air in the first place. And, secondly, if we saw them out there, why didn't we then get them from the air? Maybe they're in garages. Maybe they're covered up and hidden somewhere. But I remember, during the Kosovo campaign, we worked with the Air Force a lot on what was called tank plinking. And I remember the air commanders came to me and he said: Sir, we're not very good at plinking tanks.

But the Air Force has gotten a lot better at it. It's one of the key functions we've got. And so I hope that, as we move ahead, we will figure out and run the rabbits down the rabbit hole on this one. We want to be able to take care of everything from the air we can take of. On that battlefield, anything you can do to save the ground forces from getting out there and mixing it up with the enemy, we should be doing.

BROWN: About a minute left in this segment. One of the more troubling shots of the day that I saw was the shot of young Iraqi men, presumably Iraqi, though they may not have been, with RPGs and small-arms roaming around in vans around the city. Is that the future, both near term and, perhaps even more frighteningly, long term?

CLARK: Now, that's really the question, isn't it?

There's sort of three different endings: the surrender; a gradual diminution of the violence and suddenly everybody lays his weapons down. And then the third alternative, which is the worst, is, it sort of becomes a West Bank situation, in which there are armed bands. There's terror. There's hit-and-run that goes on ad infinitum, with us as a foreign country in there trying to create intelligence and deal with the Iraqis to handle it.

It could be tough. Too soon to be pessimistic at this stage. We know the right thing to do is finish the fight as soon as possible and do our best to avoid inflicting civilian casualties and infrastructure destruction on Baghdad. And then we've got to hope our psychological operations and political activities work.

BROWN: General, back with you shortly.

We'll take a break. We're back with you shortly as well, but a break first. Our coverage continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you're a regular viewer of NEWSNIGHT, you know we try and make room for still photographers. Video tells story one way, but still photos can tell the same story in quite another way.

Tonight, the pictures comes from Rob Curtis of the Army Times Publishing. He's with the 101st Airborne outside of Karbala, where the combat was close and danger, as you will see, was all around.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROB CURTIS, PHOTOGRAPHER, ARMY TIMES PUBLISHING: My name is Rob Curtis. I am a photographer with the Army Times, a publishing company, out here shooting pictures about the 101st 2nd Brigade's work here in Iraq.

The hearts are -- go all the way back to World War II. And that just signifies the unit. And the 101st came in to police the area and really do the deep-down scrubbing to clear it and make sure it was safe. Soon after we were there, they found Baath Party headquarters. And everywhere we went, you saw these pictures of Saddam Hussein. On the walls, there were little message written, that: Saddam is always thinking of you.

Outside of that party headquarters, there was a huge picture of Saddam. And with great pride, one of the captains from the 101st walked up with a can of spray paint and wrote the Widowmaker over his face, the 3-502 sign. The 101st Airborne moved. They are air assaults, which mean they attack from the helicopters. So, they'll load on a helicopter in the morning. They get out and then just march to the objective.

Saturday was a big day here for the guys I was with. It started out as an air assault from a city down south. And they got through Karbala and hiked across the desert in about 100-degree heat, heading into the city and ran into some pretty stiff resistance.

Let me tell you, the urban fighting for these guys is their bread and butter. And that's the only reason they are really here, is to search and clear buildings block by block. And it's real heavy lifting for these guys. They have to physically -- they take four-man teams into every single room. And they cleared maybe 4,000 rooms since they have been here as a battalion.

The Americans' helicopters were shooting rockets and machine guns at the Iraqi positions. At one point, when we came around the corner, we saw a trickle of civilians coming around the corner. Then maybe, even I think by the time they had all passed us, there must have been 100, maybe as many as 300, just streaming away from the fighting. The soldiers were really concerned with getting these people out of the city as best as they could safely and not shooting anybody by accident.

These guys are wonderful soldiers. They are all a volunteer force. They're built like bricks. A lot of them just keep going. Throw anything at them. I really couldn't speak more highly of the people I'm with. They are taking care of me. And all I can do is do my best is show what it is that they are going through.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Photos of Rob Curtis for the Army Times.

We will take a break, update the day's headlines. And when we come back, we focus for a bit on the battle for Baghdad.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

BROWN: For those of you just joining us, that's a quick look at the headlines. Here's a fuller version of the broad outlines of the day.

It was quite a busy day on many different fronts, but much of the fighting at least focused squarely on Baghdad.

Here's our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There may only be pockets of resistance left in Baghdad, as the Pentagon says, but those pockets are still fighting, dying and sometimes inflicting U.S. casualties in the last ditch defense of the regime.

The U.S. squeeze play is on. In addition to their base at the main international airport, U.S. soldiers continue to occupy two presidential palaces downtown and marines have secured a second airport to the east. On their way to the airport, the marines found and destroyed abandoned Iraqi weapons and ammunition.

In Baghdad, U.S. troops are now being resupplied and have no plans to leave.

JAM. GEN. STAN MCCHRYSTAL, JOINT STAFF DEPUTY DIR.: We are sitting in the center of the city with almost an armored brigade right now, which is extraordinary. So if you put it in that kind of context, I think the endgame is the end of the regime, and that's much closer than people thought it was.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon still can't say if the four 2000-pound bombs a B1 bomber dropped on this residential area killed Saddam Hussein or any of his inner circle, and with Iraq's information minister still waxing defiant, it's clear someone is still in charge.

MOHAMMED SAEED AL-SAHAF, IRAQI INFORMATION MINISTER (through translator): It's the same desperate attempts to weaken our resistance, but our forces, especially the commandos, ae preparing to destroy them.

MCINTYRE: Sahaf is said to be working out of the Palestine Hotel, where most international journalists are based. The Hotel was hit by a U.S. tank round Tuesday, killing two journalists and wounding two others.

The Pentagon expressed regret for the deaths and for an earlier incident in which an Al Jazeera reporter was killed in an exchange of gunfire between U.S. and Iraqi forces near the Information Ministry, but insisted in both cases U.S. troops responded with appropriate force and in self defense.

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: War is a dangerous, dangerous business and you're not safe when you're in a war zone.

MCINTYRE (on camera): And the United States continues to build up its forces, flying tanks and armored vehicles into airfields in northern Iraq to give U.S. forces there more fire power.

In addition, sources say the U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division, now in Kuwait, could begin moving into southern Iraq as soon as later this week.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: There's an overview of the last 24 hours. We'll focus our attention now to parts of it. The attack inside the city of Baghdad has been supported from what's become the American main base there, the airport in Baghdad. In short order, the Army's 3rd Infantry Division has turned the area into a fire base.

Here's Carl Dinnen of Britain's Channel 4 News.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARL DINNEN, CHANNEL 4 NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Rockets being launched from Baghdad Airport this morning as units here support the push into the city.

Overhead, A10 Warthogs circled, picking out Iraqi air defenses. This one releasing defensive decoys as it climbs away, but even they are no guarantee. One A10 was shot down near here today, the pilot lucky to be rescued.

Ground forces have suffered casualties. These soldiers were rehearsing for a memorial service for six of their comrades killed earlier this week, three in an RPG attack and three in a road accident.

This army is increasingly concerned about accidental casualties during combat.

This is 2-4 Artillery's missile launcher, "Anger Management," in Kuwait three weeks ago. This was it this morning after a fire in the launcher module.

SGT. TOM GALLEGOR, 2ND BATT. 4TH FIELD ARTILLERY: We just ran. You know, everybody was just saying "get out of there, get out of there," because of the munitions that were about to go off. We went and dived in the foxholes.

DINNEN: Although American forces control the airport, there are still one-off attacks from beyond the perimeter and on the convoy's moving in and out. Overall, though, things are clearing going there way.

LT. COL. BILL SPRAYBERRY, 2ND BATT. 4TH FIELD ARTILLERY: Overall, I think that the 3rd Infantry Division and all of the soldiers that are part of that big divisional combat team are meeting the secretary of the army and the chief of staff of the army's charter, which is we meet the nonnegotiable contract with the American people to fight and win our nation's wars, and I think we're doing exactly that.

DINNEN: Gunfire and fighting have been audible around the airport today and everyone here hopes that their colleagues at the front can soon get the job done, topple this regime and get them home.

No one knows when that time will be. Everyone feels it is getting rapidly closer.

Carl Dinnen, Channel 4 News, at Baghdad Airport. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: General Wesley Clark, how will we know that the city of Baghdad is owned by the Americans?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, U.S. ARMY (RET.): Well, Aaron, I think that's a very, very important question.

Obviously, if the shooting stops, that will be a good sign, but then there's another side to the coin and that is, we've got to get somebody there in charge who can represent the fact that Baghdad is not continuing to resist. Some political authority, some group of political authorities, some Imams, somebody who has contact with the local population.

Otherwise, a day or two gap in resistance followed by another attack of RPG's and sniping that could go on for a long time.

So there's a military dimension to it and there's a political dimension to it, and I would hope that we're moving as rapidly as possible to figure out a political game plan for that urban area.

BROWN: That person has to be an Iraqi, correct?

CLARK: Well, it would seem that that's the right approach, if we can find someone in authority to talk to. It's not going to be Saddam Hussein. Maybe there's a mayor there, maybe there's a city council that's Baathist, but then you don't know if you could trust them or not.

We're looking for somebody who can grab hold of the population and bring them around.

BROWN: The risk is creating -- might the risk be creating a political authority which is then not seen as having legitimacy?

CLARK: That's certainly one of the risks. And the other risk is that you're dealing with the same discredited regime, and giving them authority again in an effort to try to control.

And so, you know, this is a -- there's probably a Sunni majority group in there that's running Baghdad, and yet there's a huge Shia minority in southern Baghdad. Who represents those people?

And so, this needs to be sorted out almost concurrently with the end of the fighting.

BROWN: If you were General Tommy Franks and you're looking at Baghdad, what are you worried about? What's keeping you up at night?

CLARK: I think it's sort of your basic strategy. What you really don't know is if you get Saddam Hussein or you can really get into that bunker system and take out his command and control, will they still resist?

Are you ever going to be able to have a time where you can say, OK, that's it, fighting's finished, get Jay Garner (ph) in there and start working the humanitarian aid delivery. Baghdad is relatively secure. We'll patrol the streets. No flak jackets. Well, flak jackets, no chem -- no mop suits. And you know, we're just there and interfacing with the Iraqi people.

Or is it always going to be a potentially hostile armed presence in there that eventually looks so foreign that people hate you for it. That's what I would be worried about.

BROWN: More of the country uncontrolled by the coalition that it is controlled?

CLARK: That's certainly the case right now, and probably will continue to be the case.

Rich Enseci (ph), the army chief of staff, you may remember, said it would take 200,000 troops. He was disputed, and it's a figure that people are going to be working with. But I think the modality is clear. You put as many troops and marines as you have in there. You get as much presence locally as you can, and then area by area you thin out the forces as you find no problems.

But what you don't want to do is start light in this phase and then end up losing a grip on some significant, sizeable portion.

BROWN: Just -- we're just focusing here a little bit -- I think you can see this -- on sort of the path the coalition and mostly the Americans have taken to get where they are now, and where they are now is largely having encircled the capitol and they have control of the roadways over the capitol. But it's certainly an overstatement to say that they have control within the capitol, isn't it?

CLARK: It is an overstatement, Aaron. They don't have control within the capitol.

As they've said, there are still groups of fighters in there that, when they say there's no organized resistance, it means -- I think it means they can't find a successful perimeter of defense within which they couldn't penetrate if they moved with their armored columns. But that doesn't mean there aren't areas that are full of resistance and will fight back.

Plus you have the problem of Tikrit in the north, Mosul, Kirkuk and this large area in which there are still reportedly several Iraqi divisions, or at least remnants of divisions, and a command and control structure in place with a Sunni population.

BROWN: So there's plenty of danger still out there and plenty of work.

General, we'll get back to you in a moment.

We focused here on Baghdad. It's clear there's still plenty of fighting, as the general indicated, in little towns and villages all over the country.

CNN's Ryan Chilcote was riding with the 101st Airborne when its 3rd Brigade mounted an assault in town called Hillah.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The attack began with U.S. armor, artillery and helicopters. Close behind, the light infantry from the 101st Airborne's Rakkasans, meeting resistance even before they reached the outskirts.

We had three cameras rolling during the firefight. These pictures from CNN engineer Brad Simcox (ph).

Small arms fire came from both sides of the road, then a bush.

(on camera): Three soldiers were wounded in the firefight when two fighters came out of this bush right over here. The first with his hands up in the air, the second right behind him, lobbing a grenade. That is as far as those fighters got.

(voice-over): One of the two shot in the head, the second killed by a grenade.

The soldiers then went for the agricultural complex. Before it was all over, the soldiers were smoking some of the first cigarettes they've seen in a while, courtesy of one of the estimated dozen fighters killed.

Mohammad (ph), a schoolteacher who lives across the street, claims the fighters were mercenaries from outside Iraq.

MOHAMMAD (ph), HILLAH RESIDENT: These are Syrian, Egyptian.

CHILCOTE: There were no ID's found in the agricultural complex nor in their camp, where mealtime had clearly been interrupted.

One of the three wounded U.S. soldiers was sent to a MASH unit, but is expected to recover. After treatment, the other two have already reported back for duty.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne 3rd Brigade, on the outskirts of Hillah.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Take a break. When we come back, we'll talk, we hope, with Michael Gordon, the chief military affairs writer of "The New York Times" on the plan and whether it is going according to plan, but we take a break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: President Bush returned today from a quick summit with Britain's Tony Blair. Much of what they talked about centered on the role of the United Nations in post-war Iraq.

CNN's Bill Schneider joins us tonight with more on what that might mean, or whether it is even necessary. Good evening -- Mr. Schneider.

BILL SCHNEIDER, CNN ANALYST: Good evening.

You know, the United Nations refused to participate in this war, so the question is, why should the United Nations participate in the management of the post-war outcome?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER (voice-over): "Only countries that shed life and blood to liberate Iraq will take the lead in remaking Iraq," National Security Advisor Condoleezza Rice said last week. Sounds reasonable.

But there are a lot of voices out there arguing that the United Nations should have a key role. One of them, the United Nations.

KOFI ANNAN, U.N. SECY.-GEN.: But above all, the United Nations involvement does bring legitimacy.

SCHNEIDER: Hold on now. Is Secy. Annan implying that having won the war, the United States would not have legitimate authority to run Iraq? Well, yes, because the rest of the world did not recognize the legitimacy of this war, and the United States does not want to be seen as an occupying force.

SEN. CARL LEVIN, (D) MICHIGAN: I think it's critically important for all kinds of reasons that this not be an American occupation.

SCHNEIDER: British Prime Minister Tony Blair is known to favor a major role for the United Nations. He's worried about a rising tide of anti-American that could unite Europe and the Arab world and put Britain on the spot.

So Bush and Blair have worked out a convenient formula.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MIN.: This new Iraq that will emerge is not to be run either by us or indeed by the United Nations. That is a false choice. It will be run by the Iraqi people.

GEORGE W. BUSH, U.S. PRESIDENT: From day one, we have said the Iraqi people are capable of running their own country.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCHNEIDER: Nice try, but it begs the question: Iraq cannot become a democracy overnight. For the time being, somebody has to choose the government. The question is, who.

BROWN: The question is, who chooses it and who is that government, and complicating all of this is, the longer the Americans stay, the more anti-American feeling builds up, at least in the region -- at least.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. It's very powerful throughout the Arab world and, you know, interestingly, I have just reviewed polls from all over Europe, and it turns out, since the war began, support for the war has increased only in two countries, the United States and Britain, the two countries doing the fighting.

There has been no increase in support for the war in any country that I can find in Europe, including Russia. France, Germany -- even Spain and Italy, whose governments have been supportive of President Bush, they have remained -- the people there have remained adamantly anti-American.

BROWN: So -- well -- is support for the war or opposition to the war the same as being anti-American?

SCHNEIDER: Well, it's certainly anti-Bush, and there is growing criticism of the United States, and, you know, President Putin of Russia called a meeting this weekend with Jacques Chirac, the president of France, and Gerhard Schroeder, the chancellor of Germany.

Something could be happening here that could be very, very dangerous -- namely, the effort to form a new Europe, politically defined as anti-American, because right now, France in particular, and to some extent also Germany and Russia, believe that only Europe can be a check and balance on an American administration that the Europeans see as reckless and bullying.

And they see anti-Americanism as a widespread sentiment that's been growing and that can unify Europe and give Europe something in common with the Arab world.

BROWN: Talked to a high official in the United Nations today, who still held out hope that there was an important role for the United Nations to add to perhaps counterbalance exactly the same you're talking about. Does not seem likely to happen.

SCHNEIDER: Well, the British are trying to make that happen, because the British are on the spot. They do not want to be part of an anti-American Europe. That's why they are insistent that the United Nations play a crucial role to try to counteract this growing tendency for Europe to define itself as an anti-American power.

BROWN: Bill, thank you -- Bill Schneider.

Trudy Rubin joins us now. She's a foreign affair columnist with "The Philadelphia Inquirer." Prior to that, she covered the Middle East for "The Christian Science Monitor, and it's nice to have you on the program.

TRUDY RUBIN, "THE PHILADELPHIA INQUIRER": Nice to be here.

BROWN: I think we'll just continue this conversation along.

You wrote today that you believe that the president is serious when he talks about want a democracy in Iraq, but you're not entirely sure he understands what that mans.

RUBIN: Well, I think that if the president wants a democracy in Iraq, what is absolutely essential is that there has to be a turnover to Iraqis as soon as possible, and those Iraqis have to be seen as legitimate, both at home and overseas, in the Middle East and in the world.

And that really brings us back to this question that Bil Schneider was talking about, how do you make this legitimate.

And I think that President Bush may be missing an opportunity here.

I have a column that I've written for tomorrow in which I'm talking about the misunderstanding of the role that the United Nations could play, because I think what the United Nations could be is what Secretary Powell referred to as an international chapeau. An international hat over the political process.

That does not mean that the United Nations would run Iraq, as the French have suggested. In fact, Kofi Annan said that that would be wrong, because Iraq is not East Timor. Iraq is not Kosovo. It has -- it's a real country and there's a bureaucracy there that can be put back together again.

So it's not a question of running all the reconstruction. It's a question of being the chapeau over an international conference at which an interim government would be chosen. And I think if you're going to have a democracy, you have to have an Iraqi leadership that is looked on not as an American puppet but as something new which brings new hope for Iraqis.

BROWN: Do you think it's fair to say that, to many Americans, they have a very bad taste in their mouth from the debate of 1441 and what would follow 1441, and there isn't a lot of political weight in the United States today to see a very active United Nations role?

RUBIN: I think that's totally understandable, but I think sometimes people forget that the United Nations is basically an instrument which is used by its members.

When it came to 1441, it was used and abused by members.

I think the question is what the United States wants to achieve and how it can best achieve that and whether the United Nations is an instrument that can give that legitimacy that I think even people, some people in this administration, understand is vital if the United States is ever going to be able to get out of Iraq after establishing a government.

BROWN: Not to beat this to death, but you have a lot of people, particularly within the president's own party, and on the most conservative wings of his party who, you don't even have to read between the lines. They seem to have no use for the U.N. at all.

RUBIN: Right, but the problem is then everything is on the American's heads and then if the Americans are seen as picking the members of an Iraqi interim authority, then every group in Iraq that's dissatisfied with who's in and who's out is going to blame the United States. Then some people inside Iraq, maybe many people, will look on this as a sort of continuation of the British occupation of the past, and the United States is going to have all kinds of problems in sort of enabling the transfer to a government that is better than what was before.