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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Statue Falls, Terror Lifts
Aired April 09, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Well, good evening again everyone. How many times have we found ourselves saying it lately, so this is what history looks like. History today was a statue falling. It was terror lifting. It was a spell broken. It was people finding their voices again or perhaps for the very first time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): In one moment and in one shot the day's story could be told. The rest is just detail.
(CHEERING)
BROWN: It is just detail that Marines at first put an American flag on the statue and then quickly replaced it with the Iraqi flag. Just detail. It was less than 12 hours earlier that American commanders told CNN it looked as if most of the Iraqi regular army inside Baghdad had simply disappeared. But the astonishing speed in which the regime fell, in which Marine units moved in from the east, seemed to surprise virtually everyone, including the Iraqi ambassador to the United Nations.
MOHAMMED ALDOURI, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: The game is over. I hope the peace will prevail and the Iraqi people at the end of the day will have a peaceful life.
QUESTION: What do you mean that the game is over, sir?
ALDOURI: The war, I mean.
BROWN: Some residents swarmed over the tank recovery vehicle in front of the statue. They asked for and received yellow packets of food. In some parts of the city there was widespread looting. People carrying anything and everything. In crowded hospitals little room for those civilians caught in the cross-fire. And in Washington the watch-word over and over again from the Bush administration was caution.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There's a lot more fighting that's going to be done. There are more people that are going to be killed. Let there be no doubt. This is not over, despite all the celebrations on the street.
BROWN: There was little doubt about that because only a few miles away from the celebrations of the statue at the University of Baghdad, Marines were in a ferocious firefight with a band of Iraqi militia. They poured fire into two pickup trucks, the kind mounted with machine guns and used by the Fedayeen guerrillas. They also destroyed an anti-aircraft gun and its ammunition. Sending cascades of fire into the late afternoon sky.
On the road to Baghdad, elements of the 101st Airborne charged into a set of buildings that had been used as a headquarters for the Fedayeen. They had been taking fire from the buildings, but when they got there everyone had disappeared. The celebrations were hardly confined to Baghdad. This one is in Kurdish-controlled territory, the city of Erbil in the north. And this one is in Dearborn, Michigan, home to thousands of Iraqi-Americans. Those are the details. But again, one picture and one short piece of sound tell the real story of the day. The picture will take a place in history as now will the regime of Saddam Hussein.
RUMSFELD: Saddam Hussein is now taking his rightful place alongside Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Ceausescu in the pantheon of failed brutal dictators. And the Iraqi people are well on their way to freedom.
BROWN: That is the big picture of the day. There are lots of small pieces of the puzzle, but none of them can overshadow the sense that everyone felt this morning here in the east when they watched that statue fall. Before the war it was virtually impossible to get Iraqis to speak openly about anything at all except for their rehearsed praise for Saddam Hussein. Reporters had to read an arch of an eyebrow or a settle gesture. There was nothing subtle today as the statue came down. The emotion were raw and angry and euphoric all at the same time.
Here's how that played out as seen by British reporter Neil Connery.
NEIL CONNERY, BRITISH REPORTER (voice-over): Into the very heart of Baghdad U.S. tanks and troops finally arrived, spelling the end for the Iraqi regime. The stars and stripes have come to town. Saddam Hussein's reign of terror is over.
(on camera): So nearly three weeks after this war began, U.S. forces are now coming into the center of Baghdad. This is what regime change looks like.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, just keep the truck off to the side. There's too much over here already.
CONNERY: But no one here was taking any chances, checking all the time for possible resistance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there's no barrels, nothing on the roof.
CONNERY (on camera): Are you pleased to be in Baghdad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feeling of satisfaction, I guess, it's almost over. Get to go home soon.
CONNERY: What's it like being in the middle of Baghdad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's kind of crazy. Pretty good warm welcome from everybody kind of.
CONNERY: Good luck. Stay safe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. You too.
CONNERY (voice-over): The welcome was definitely warm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to Baghdad. I say to the American people. And thank you for all things in Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you.
CONNERY: The president's rule is no more. Years of repression and brutality have been brought to a close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody here suffered a lot from the unfair regime of Saddam Hussein and all his -- you know, his soldiers and the others. And we just want to get rid of him these days, and let's wait and see what's America heading for us.
CONNERY: Saddam's statue soon became the focus of the crowd's anger. In front of our hotel Iraqis were burning pictures of the president. Back at the statue they found a ladder and a rope. The people were determined to topple Saddam.
(on camera): Tell me, will you bring this statue down?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes!
CONNERY (voice-over): A few hours later they'd found a crane to do the job. For decades his image could be seen at almost every turn in this country, but everything has changed here now. And then, as evening fell, so did Saddam, removed from power.
(CHEERING)
CONNERY: They are a people free at last to express what they really think. Saddam has gone.
Neil Connery, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A breathtaking day. Craig Nelson of the Cox News service, the big broadcasting and newspaper company, is at the Palestine Hotel across the square from where the statue fell, and he joins us now. What was the night like there -- Craig.
CRAIG NELSON, "COX NEWSPAPERS": It was quite a quiet night until two or three hours ago. There was a great deal of relief around the hotel. There are dozens of U.S. tanks and armored personnel carriers and hundreds of marines. But about two or three hours ago there were explosions on the horizon and there have been sporadic explosions since. So it's a reminder that the war isn't over. There was a dramatic day yesterday with some incredible psychological change here in the population of -- in Baghdad. But the war goes on. There are pockets of the city where there's looting, there's violence, and there's simply no government, no administration in control. So this remains a very volatile place.
BROWN: Did people just start to drift away as night came, go back to their homes, the people who were celebrating that we all saw?
NELSON: Yes. I mean, there's a large percentage of Baghdad's population actually had left the city. This is a deserted -- in many neighborhoods there are simply no cars on the street and the houses are empty. So, people went back to their homes, those that had remained in Baghdad, and we'll see what happens today. Today should be a very interesting day as dawn breaks behind me, we'll see how many come out and see what their reaction is to the changes that have transformed this place in the last 24 hours.
BROWN: Generally, the conditions in the city, is there electricity in most places? Is there water running in most places?
NELSON: No. Electricity and water are sporadic. Especially on the outskirts of the city. We -- there have been frequent power outages. There is starting to be great concerns by the International Committee of the Red Cross and other NGOS about water. So there's a looming humanitarian crisis.
There's a looming problem with security. It's definitely -- there's definitely a series of problems here that have to be taken care of. We talked to the Marine commander here last night who was in charge of the armored unit that came in here yesterday, and he said we're in the war-making business, not the policing business. And he was very, very concerned about getting troops and other U.S. forces in here that could do the policing. He recognizes that that's a big need right now.
BROWN: Tell me a bit about the moment that you -- excuse me -- that you came to realize that the government had fallen, that there was this historic moment that you were about to witness.
NELSON: Well, I realized it early this morning when we -- when some colleagues and I went to a vegetable market that we've been going to quite frequently just to gauge the mood. And what we found there were people that were telling us stories that they hadn't told us before. All the inhibitions that they had had previously, most of them were gone. They were telling us about their history, you know, what had happened to their brothers or sisters in Iraqi prisons. They told us about how either angry or sad they were about what the Americans were doing. I mean, regardless of what the emotion was, what was amazing about it is that it was being expressed. Now, one important caveat here is that many of these people refused to give us their names. The fear isn't going to go away overnight. It remains here. And it's going to be a factor in how the administration shapes up here as slowly, slowly the apparatus of Saddam's regime falls apart and dissolves.
BROWN: Craig, thanks for your time. Get some sleep. Probably been a while. We appreciate your good work all day long. Thank you. Craig Nelson, who's with the "Cox Newspaper" chain, big broadcasting communications company.
As we were going off the air early this morning, 2:00 this morning, we had gotten word that Walt Rodgers reported that all the Iraqi troops, according to U.S. military sources, had left, and Rym Brahimi talking to her sources in Amman, Jordan, had gotten word that the city was quiet, all the minders were gone, all the government officials seemed to be gone. And we left the air saying over a picture of Baghdad who knows what this day will bring? We couldn't have imagined, nor could many of you, I expect, imagined what the day brings. I don't know that they imagined it at the White House it would end quite the way it did. But that scene was certainly seen at the White House. The statue toppling.
We're joined by our senior White House correspondent tonight, John King.
John, good evening.
JOHN KING, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you Aaron. President Bush watched some of those celebrations in the streets of Baghdad around the statue of Saddam. Make no mistake about it. The president is quite pleased. But he's a bit concerned that those pictures might convince the American people mission accomplished. The president is telling top aides, don't declare victory yet there are still dangerous days ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING: A powerful snapshot but with the celebration came a challenge for a White House determined to make clear down does not mean out and that the war is hardly over.
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There may well be hard fighting yet ahead. Regime forces are still in control in Northern Iraq, in Mosul and Kirkuk and Tikrit.
KING: Yet with the caution came a small dose of "we told you so."
CHENEY: In the early days of the war the plan was criticized by some retired military officers embedded in TV studios. But with every day and every advance by our coalition forces the wisdom of that plan becomes more apparent.
KING: As the troops press on, the administration is accelerating planning for post-war Iraq. Retired Army General Jay Garner leads the civil authority that will move in soon and run key services until power can be handed over to a new interim Iraqi authority. The administration blueprint still has no firm timetable for getting the interim authority up and running, but planning meetings in southern Iraq will begin as early as next week, involving a mix of indigenous Iraqis and exiles and dissidents now returning home, with general Tommy Franks in charge of the invitations. The hope is that with Saddam Hussein out of the picture local leaders will naturally emerge to help shape the new authority. FLEISCHER: The president has very high levels of faith in the ability of the Iraqi people to govern themselves and make these decisions for themselves.
KING: Iraqi national Congress leader Amhad Chalabi is a favorite of many top Bush advisers, and will be among those invited to post war planing sessions. But his complaints that the admiration is moving to slowly with reconstruction efforts have annoyed even some of his top administration supporters. And officials stress he is but one of many voices in the post-war political debate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: And we are told before this week is out perhaps as early as tomorrow the president himself will lay out his sense of the challenges still ahead behind the scenes here at the White House, a palpable sense of vindication. And while caution remains the public watch-word, the guidance to all aides here, do not gloat, you are hearing administration believing that victory is at hand not only in Iraq, the vice president saying today he believes when this war is over there will be a powerful domino effect, this administration believes, across the Middle East -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, that was one of the underlying themes for the administration. It is not by accident, I assume, that we did not see the president today.
KING: Not an accident at all. They did not want the president out because they believed that would be moving the bar, if you will. That if we saw the president talking about those remarkable scenes there was no way for him not to get excited, to get animated, and the white house does not want to leave the impression that this is over by any means. There is a great glee here at the White House, if you will, that those pictures. And those stories Craig Nelson was just talking about will send a powerful message across the Arab world. Some concern at the White House, though, that those pictures will affect public opinion here at home. Those troops are going to be in Iraq for some time to come, and over the next several days and weeks there could be more fighting and more casualties. The White House is worried the American people might get too relaxed.
BROWN: John, thank you. Good to have you with us tonight. Our senior White House correspondent, John King.
There was another president we didn't see today, that was Saddam Hussein. Not knowing what became of Saddam has to add a sense of caution being expressed by the administration. At some point he may simply become irrelevant, as pictures today seem to indicate, but clearly the wishes for the bogey man to be gone or to be dead or to be captured, not merely missing.
CNN's David Ensor, national security correspondent, joins us with the Saddam part of the story.
David, good evening. DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, as we've seen already, Saddam Hussein's regime is evaporating. But his fate remains unknown, and it is not without consequence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: As the regime appeared to go up in smoke, U.S. officials said its control in Baghdad has disintegrated. As for Saddam Hussein, officials still don't know his fate.
RUMSFELD: He's either dead or he's incapacitated or he's healthy and cowering in some tunnel someplace, trying to avoid being caught.
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: He is still important because there are people who will continue to fight as long as he is alive.
ENSOR: Rumors flew that Saddam might be in the Russian embassy in Baghdad. False, said the Russians, and U.S. Officials too. It seemed clear after meetings at the White House that senior intelligence officials were pleased with the way things are going. But urgent tasks remain, including finding weapons of mass destruction, keeping any of them from moving out of the country. The U.S. is offering rewards and amnesty for help. U.S. intelligence must also account for all the members of the regime, the intelligence, the police, the Fedayeen Saddam that may still be alive, and figure out who in Iraq can be trusted. It is a mammoth task.
POLLACK: Vet Iraqi personnel, vet Iraqi bureaucrats, determine those who really do have enough blood on their hands that they probably should be excluded from a post-war administration. And those who can be brought back in and help to set up a new transitional authority to help to administer the country.
ENSOR: Then there are the neighbors to worry about.
Secretary Rumsfeld complained about the role of Syria.
RUMSFELD: Senior regime people are moving out of Iraq into Syria, and Syria is continuing to send things into Iraq. We find it notably unhelpful.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: U.S. officials say despite a lot of rumors they have no solid information that any senior Iraqi officials have entered Syria, though some of their families have. That border is being watched very closely by the U.S.
And Aaron, one more taste of the kind of flavor about Saddam Hussein that we're hearing right now. Another report on another network this evening said that Saddam had survived. This person's sources said he had been in the restaurant next to the building that was struck on Monday night. His bodyguards had pulled him out and rushed him off in a car, which might have been attacked but they believed had gotten away. I've spoken to a couple of U.S. officials this evening who say they heard that rumor, they're not sure if it's true or not -- Aaron.
BROWN: I assume that the region is full of rumor. One of the great mysteries, David, is what happened to the regime?
Literally over the last 24 hours there was the sense that everybody just sort of up and disappeared. Presumably there is intelligence on this.
Are we able to figure it out?
ENSOR: Well, interestingly this morning the first calls that I made I was hearing from officials that they were fascinated, but not one member of Saddam Hussein's cabinet had reported for work today. Nobody came into the ministries. They were empty. And there weren't any guards. It was -- it was really quite extraordinary.
BROWN: Someday we'll know the answer to that.
David, thank you. Our national security correspondent, David Ensor.
When the defense secretary said there's more fighting to be done, he could point due north of Baghdad to prove it. Iraqi forces are still holding on in many spots across the north, but that did not stop people in Kurdish-controlled Iraq from rejoicing. For the Kurds this is bitterly personal. The scars they have come from Saddam Hussein. They are both emotional and literal.
For more on their story today from CNN's Ben Wedeman, who joins us now.
Ben, good evening.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good evening, Aaron.
Well, it didn't take long for that news from Baghdad to spread throughout the Kurdish-controlled areas of Iraq. Here in he in Erbil there was immediate reaction to the news of the apparent collapse of Saddam Hussein's authority in Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WEDEMAN (voice-over): It's hard not to love a winner, especially when the guy on your side looks like he's clobbering the neighborhood bully. It didn't take long for the news from Baghdad to reach the Kurdish stronghold of Erbil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: USA! USA!
WEDEMAN: And send the people out here dancing in the streets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down down Saddam! Yes yes America! Yes yes Bush!
WEDEMAN: A new face has joined Kurdistan's collection of old heroes. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Bush, because the leader of the United States like freedom for Kurdish and anyone.
WEDEMAN: This part of Iraq has been freed from Saddam Hussein's control since 1991. The statues and posters of the Iraqi leader torn down years ago. But still pervasive until today was the fear that Saddam Hussein would once again unleash his chemical weapons on the rebellious Kurds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WEDEMAN: And one sobering thought in all of this is that despite the dramatic changes we've seen in Baghdad here in northern Iraq the Iraqi army still is very much in control of the cities of Kirkuk and Mosul. So even though there have been some changes, some movement on the front lines in the last 24 hours, there's still about 100,000 Iraqis under arms in the north of the country -- Aaron.
BROWN: Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman, who's been up in the northern part of Iraq for a while now.
Simon Robinson is on the phone. He is with "Time" magazine in Baghdad. He witnessed the statue coming down. And in fact this morning we heard him describe it. Simon, it's good to have you with us. At what point in the day did you realize that you were going to report history?
SIMON ROBINSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Only very shortly before it happened. The marine battalion that I was traveling with, Aaron, moved out around lunch-time to push north from the southeastern suburbs of Baghdad. They were to clear an area. They quickly realized that the area didn't really need clearing because they weren't coming up against any sort of resistance and finding very little. So they pressed much further ahead than they had expected to on orders from their higher ups.
And within around half an hour they were sitting in the -- in one of the central squares in eastern Baghdad with a lot of Iraqis coming out onto the roads clapping and cheering. And in those amazing scenes that we saw soon after where the -- first the Iraqis were pelting the statue of Saddam with their shoes, which in the Arab world is a very strong insult. And then the Marine battalion, one of their tanks drove up onto the center of the square and used a winch to pull over the statue of Saddam to the crowd's delight.
BROWN: Simon, was it clear even early in the morning that something on the ground in Baghdad had changed overnight?
ROBINSON: Perhaps even the day before. The battalion that I had been traveling with from Kuwait had crossed a river in southeastern Baghdad and sister battalions within the 7th Marine Regiment had also managed to do that. And commanders were talking about they'd broken the will of the Iraqi soldiers to fight. They really came up against very little resistance from Tuesday morning. So all Tuesday and Wednesday they were able to move fairly quickly. That's not to say that there weren't pockets of resistance. Indeed, there was fighting only around two miles from the scenes that we saw today in a university compound. But fairly small pockets relative to the fights that they've had up to this point.
BROWN: Simon, your commentary this morning was gripping to those of us who were watching it. We thank you for your time tonight.
Simon Robinson, who's a correspondent with "Time" magazine.
We haven't heard a thing from the Iraqi government except what you're about to hear. It came from their U.N. ambassador in New York as he was moving back into his residence. It was short and very quick, and you have to listen carefully to hear it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALDOURI: My hope now is peace. For everybody. This is what I have.
QUESTION: Since you're only going to say it once, let us just get it setup
ALDOURI: Sorry?
QUESTION: Let me just ask you...
ALDOURI: No. I have no -- I cannot answer your question. I told you, I repeat it again, the game is over. I hope the peace will prevail and with the Iraqi people at the end of the day will have a peaceful life.
QUESTION: What do you mean that the game is over, sir?
ALDOURI: The war, I mean.
QUESTION: So you are convinced the war is over?
ALDOURI: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, of course.
QUESTION: What is the situation with Saddam Hussein?
ALDOURI: Well, I don't know. This is better ask the American. I have no relationship with Saddam. So I can't tell you. I am here like you. Thank you.
QUESTION: Explain to me, sir, what do you mean you have no relationship with Saddam, what does that mean?
ALDOURI: Now I have no communication with Iraq. I am here. So I know nothing about what is going there.
QUESTION: What do you make, sir, of the pictures you've seen of -- all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That seems to be what's left of the Iraqi government. One diplomat in New York. Christiane Amanpour, is in Kuwait tonight, but not for long. She joins us from there.
Christiane, it's good to see you.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, good morning.
You can imagine Kuwait is the most interested neighbor of Iraq and is very, very pleased that this has happened. We have one little element to show you here, the morning paper, "Saddam off his pedestal," and that pretty much sums up what the Kuwaitis have been hoping for the last 12 years. During yesterday's live pictures of the bringing down of that statue, anchors here were saying, God is great, using the Arabic Allah Akbar.
By contrast, of course, this is being reacted in different ways in different Arab capitals. Syria, which has been the most vocal against the war, showed pictures of what happened but did not show jubilation and also showed the civilian casualties, of which there were many, that were being taken into hospitals, and reporting that ambulances couldn't get them and evacuate people from areas that were still something of a firefight zone in Iraq. But I think the overwhelming feeling that we're getting from the Arab press is that they are just surprised.
They don't understand how this happened so quickly. Many people around the world believed the years of propaganda that has come out of Baghdad, that there would be a stiff fight, that the Republican Guards and the Special Republican Guards and the Special Security Organizations, you know, all these names and acronyms that have been raised as these, you know, big tigers in fact turned out to be paper tigers.
And people are having a hard time digesting that in the Arab world and trying to come to terms with the pictures of the historic nature of what happened there yesterday. And the jubilation we've seen. Although of course that is still quite limited, nonetheless they're still having difficulty coming to terms with that, and I think that's going to be an important challenge for people around the Arab and Muslim world. You know -- they all want to know where the resistance went to.
BROWN: You think there's nervousness in the Arab world about what's to come in this domino theory that the Americans have?
AMANPOUR: I do think that. I think that there's nervousness in that respect. I think that there's relief probably that Saddam is gone. I think there's nervousness about a post-Iraq -- post-war Iraq. Many people genuinely are concerned about the possible factionalization of Iraq. They're looking right now at the looting and the anarchy that's going on in the main big cities that have been liberated and they're hoping that that doesn't turn into something and descend into something worse. So there is worry about that for sure. And as I say, it's always been the post-war scenario that has caused people in this part of the world the most worry.
BROWN: Christiane, good to have you with us tonight. I suspect I'll be seeing you soon out there. Thank you very much. Christiane Amanpour.
We'll talk with General Wesley Clark and much more.
We need to take a break first. Our coverage continues on a historic day in just a moment.
I want to get to General Wesley Clark before the half-hour.
Quickly, General, you warn us often of the -- to watch ourselves go from elation to depression too quickly. Clearly, the needle moved towards elation.
RET. GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It did, and justifiably so.
I think all of us have to be very proud of the accomplishments of the men and women who did the fighting and also pleased to see the reaction of the people that we saw on the streets in Baghdad. It's just that we've got to be somewhat circumspect about this, Aaron, because we don't know what lies ahead. And there are near-term challenges and there are further challenges that need to be explored, considered. And the American people need to recognize what may lie ahead.
BROWN: And many of those questions are questions we'll put on the table over the next couple of hours with you. We're glad to have you with us.
We'll take a break to update the day's headlines. And our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There was a lot of celebrating today, not just in parts of downtown Baghdad, but also in the heart of Middle America.
Jamie Colby is looking at the reaction among Iraqi-Americans in different spots around the country, including a very large Arab- American community just outside Detroit in Dearborn, Michigan.
So, Jamie, it's good to see you again.
JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, good to see you, too.
That's where we are, in Dearborn. And like many of us, Iraqis living in the U.S. have been glued to their TVs since this war began, watching coverage and awaiting the news they say they got today: pictures that suggest the freedoms they've found in America will be restored in Iraq. And though they've resumed their monitoring of the coverage tonight, they say that they were happy to take the day off today, Aaron, hit the streets, and celebrate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Long live the Iraqi people. Yes!
COLBY (voice-over): In El Cajon, California, Iraqis rejoice for loved ones back home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to thank again United States government for this helping, and also British soldiers, British government. I want to thanks them for this help. We are very happy.
COLBY: There is also a sense of relief in Dearborn, Michigan. Half a world away from Baghdad, the largest U.S. population of Iraqis lives and took to the streets here to share this victory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are four millions Iraqis in exile. Two million Iraqis got killed by Saddam. Hundreds of thousand of men and women and children in the prison. So what do you expect? It is a celebration. Thanks God.
COLBY: Children not old enough to know the horrors the adults lived firsthand joined in to say they are grateful Iraqi children will suffer no more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're happy that Saddam Hussein is gone and the children are having peace.
COLBY: A procession to a rally of 2,000 Iraqis, as Dearborn thanks President Bush and coalition forces for a taste of freedom they've waited 35 years to savor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a beautiful day, not for me, for all Iraqi guys, for all the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down with Saddam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down with Saddam.
COLBY: Iraqis here are saying never mind whether Saddam's dead or alive. His days in control are done. Though Eefa Khudem (ph), a mother of five expelled from her homeland in 1984, has one final wish for Saddam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wish he's not dead so I can kill him again and so I can see him actually dead. That's what I'd like to see.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLBY: And I want to tell you, Aaron, that many Iraqis that I've talked to here in Dearborn say they will return to Iraq, some to live, some to find relatives that were imprisoned by Saddam, and some to do whatever they can to help build the new Iraq.
And I also want to show you some video today from that rally. An Al-Jazeera reporter took a bit of a beating. They were not very happy to see him. Apparently, Al-Jazeera, this was their first visit to Dearborn. They hadn't been covering anything here before. And there was a feeling among the Iraqis at the rally that Al-Jazeera has been unfair in its coverage of the war and a bit too pro-Saddam -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. That's an interesting look there, Jamie Colby, and an interesting assignment today.
COLBY: Thank you.
BROWN: We'll take a break.
When we come back, we'll show you how just unsafe it remains in Baghdad, or at least how unsafe it was in the moments the statue was coming down -- but a break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire! Cease fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoot it. Do it again. Fire again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes! Nice shot!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go! Hey! Sustain. How much ammo you got? Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, slow down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire! Cease fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's ordnance exploding out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Target! Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We have not mentioned enough the work of our photographers. That was Scott McGwinny's (ph) work. And it was work.
So, is the war over? It's a question we had our pollsters ask today.
As you take a look at Baghdad the morning after the extraordinary afternoon, we'll take a break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The last few days have been breathtaking in many ways, lots of remarkable images, lots of things for all of you to think about. And we sent our pollsters out to figure out what's on your minds and how you're viewing all of this.
And to interpret that, our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider is here -- Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you asked a few minutes ago if the needle has moved towards elation.
And the answer is, well, maybe a little bit. But I think people have been watching those pictures that we just saw at the University of Baghdad, because we asked people tonight, is the war over? And the answer may surprise you, because the answer is, no, Americans don't think so.
Only 15 percent, 15 percent of Americans, think this war is over. Hold the ticker tape; 44 percent believe there's minor fighting ahead; 37 percent say there are major battles ahead. Americans are not ready to declare victory and come home. They want to finish this job. Now, what does it mean? Does that mean to finish off Saddam Hussein?
Well, get this. Two-thirds of Americans think Saddam Hussein is still alive, even though you see that 66 percent. It's down a little bit, but, still, two-thirds say he's still alive, even though we did drop a very serious bomb on his house on Monday night, where we thought he was. Now, does the U.S. have to get Saddam Hussein to win this war?
Interestingly, on that issue, people are split. About half say they would consider it a victory even if the U.S. does not capture Saddam Hussein or find evidence that he's been killed. So what if he's alive? It doesn't matter. He's finished. There are still a lot of battles ahead. And I think what this poll is saying: that a lost Americans say, you know, it can't be this easy.
BROWN: And the polling was done, just to be clear, over a period of days, including today. And they weight the averages.
SCHNEIDER: Well, no, these results were from tonight.
BROWN: Tonight only.
SCHNEIDER: Earlier results were from the last two days. But the results that I went over were from tonight.
BROWN: OK. So that factors in all of the day's news.
Do people have any feel for what the post-war Iraq ought to look like?
SCHNEIDER: Well, we asked whether they thought the United States or the United Nations ought to run Iraq until an interim government is chosen, and this a bit of a surprise, because almost as many people say the U.N. should run Iraq as the U.S.
If the U.N. takes responsibility, a lot of Americans will not be outraged. I think there's a message here. And what it suggests is, most Americans do not regard this as a conquest. They're perfectly happy -- about half the country's perfectly happy to say, let the U.N. run it.
BROWN: Bill, thank you.
Let's bring in Ken Pollack, who's been with us a number of times before, but never quite in a moment like this.
Let me just -- let's start this. We've got about 90 seconds. Are you stunned with the speed with which this regime ultimately fell?
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Honestly, no, Aaron. I always expected that this could come apart very quickly if necessary. I was a little bit surprised by the lack of resistance in Baghdad. But I also tended to expect that after we saw that Republican Guard line crumble about a week ago.
BROWN: I remember you saying very early on -- and it may even have been before the war -- that these regimes tend to be quite brittle. They may look strong, in many ways are, but they're brittle and one dent and they collapse.
POLLACK: Right. Well, this is the point, is, we never know exactly how strong they are. But there is a process whereby, if you can hit them hard enough and hit them in the right way, they can come apart very quickly. And this is what we saw in Eastern Europe. Those regimes there that looked like they would survive for centuries came apart very quickly.
BROWN: Let me bring General Clark in.
General Clark, the other night, two nights ago, we were looking at fighting. And I asked you, how long do you think this will go on? Is this going to go on weeks? Is it going to go on months? And you said, no, a couple days. You knew something.
CLARK: Well, I've always felt this was a two- to three-week war. Once I realized we had only the relatively smaller force on the ground, I sort of upped it to about three weeks. And I was a little bit surprised that there was as much resistance in the cities.
But we never expected a contest with the Iraqi military. And, frankly, we never expected a tough fight. I never expected a tough fight in Baghdad, because, by the time you got there, after you'd gone through so much, they'd be so demoralized by the bombing, it would be over. So I think the military lived up to the quality that those of us who know it well expected of our men and women in uniform. They did a great job. And it's what we expected.
BROWN: One more military question. Then I'll go back to Ken.
Up north, there are still Iraqi soldiers. And, presumably, there is some command structure of those soldiers. Absent a regime, honestly, why would they fight?
CLARK: Well, it's not clear they will fight.
BROWN: Yes.
CLARK: There's a lot of inertia in military organizations. And it's quite possible that what you see are people hunkered down in position, waiting for someone to come up and say: OK, lay them down, boys. That's it. It's over.
They may fight. And we just don't know. So you've got to go up there prepared for a fight. You've got to be up there also prepared with a message to take them in peacefully, if they're willing to come peacefully in.
BROWN: Ken, before we go to break here, how concerned should people be at what was also a somewhat chaotic situation in Baghdad today, lots of looting, all the rest, not anarchy, but darn near close?
POLLACK: I think we need to be keeping our eye on this. This is a real potential problem out there.
This is a very big country, 24 million people badly repressed for all of these years. If we don't get our troops on the ground and start imposing some degree of order on this society, you could start to see things come apart. And while we can probably put it back together again, there might be a lot of blood on the ground before we can do so.
BROWN: Both Ken and General Clark, stay with us for a while tonight. We've got much more to do.
There's no question there are still military operations going on. The pictures prove the point. These come from the Constellation. And they came in just moments ago. So, pilots are still flying missions. But no one knows where the regime is.
We'll take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's easy to get fixated on that one remarkable image of the statue coming down in Baghdad today. But that is one place, one moment, one time, one group of people. The story of what's happening in Iraq is in fact, as we always say, a collection of snapshots, some inspiring, some scary, some horrible, some confusing. War and its aftermath can be all of those things.
Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Photographers call this a money shot, a picture that captures a moment in time, a picture that makes you feel. And, at the Pentagon, it felt good.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Certainly, anyone seeing the faces of the liberated Iraqis, the free Iraqis, has to say that this is a very good day.
CROWLEY: It is just what the Bush administration had hoped for: Saddam-hating, U.S.-loving, waving, very grateful Iraqis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. Bush. We very like Mr. Bush.
CROWLEY: But there are other pictures, troubling, scary, sad, that tell a different story about the same place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: See how many children you killed!
CROWLEY: This is what's called a three-block war. What you see depends on the block you're on: the destruction of tyranny in one place, anarchy in another.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you.
CROWLEY: Looters, mostly at government buildings, hauled off tires, window frames, whatever they found, as though they were taking just because they can.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
CROWLEY: Iraq is a place now where the welcome can be as warm as it can be deadly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire! Cease fire!
CROWLEY: It is a place where some Marines can be at ease and others cannot.
In Iraq, in this moment, some people celebrate the possibility of a new life, while others simply try to hold on to the one they have. The story of Iraq in this moment cannot be caught in a picture. Iraq is an album.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll take a break, update the day's headlines.
And then, imagine for a moment what it was like to be a soldier riding today into the city of Baghdad.
We'll take you on the ride in a moment.
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Aired April 9, 2003 - 22:00 ET
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AARON BROWN, HOST: Well, good evening again everyone. How many times have we found ourselves saying it lately, so this is what history looks like. History today was a statue falling. It was terror lifting. It was a spell broken. It was people finding their voices again or perhaps for the very first time.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): In one moment and in one shot the day's story could be told. The rest is just detail.
(CHEERING)
BROWN: It is just detail that Marines at first put an American flag on the statue and then quickly replaced it with the Iraqi flag. Just detail. It was less than 12 hours earlier that American commanders told CNN it looked as if most of the Iraqi regular army inside Baghdad had simply disappeared. But the astonishing speed in which the regime fell, in which Marine units moved in from the east, seemed to surprise virtually everyone, including the Iraqi ambassador to the United Nations.
MOHAMMED ALDOURI, IRAQI AMBASSADOR TO U.N.: The game is over. I hope the peace will prevail and the Iraqi people at the end of the day will have a peaceful life.
QUESTION: What do you mean that the game is over, sir?
ALDOURI: The war, I mean.
BROWN: Some residents swarmed over the tank recovery vehicle in front of the statue. They asked for and received yellow packets of food. In some parts of the city there was widespread looting. People carrying anything and everything. In crowded hospitals little room for those civilians caught in the cross-fire. And in Washington the watch-word over and over again from the Bush administration was caution.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: There's a lot more fighting that's going to be done. There are more people that are going to be killed. Let there be no doubt. This is not over, despite all the celebrations on the street.
BROWN: There was little doubt about that because only a few miles away from the celebrations of the statue at the University of Baghdad, Marines were in a ferocious firefight with a band of Iraqi militia. They poured fire into two pickup trucks, the kind mounted with machine guns and used by the Fedayeen guerrillas. They also destroyed an anti-aircraft gun and its ammunition. Sending cascades of fire into the late afternoon sky.
On the road to Baghdad, elements of the 101st Airborne charged into a set of buildings that had been used as a headquarters for the Fedayeen. They had been taking fire from the buildings, but when they got there everyone had disappeared. The celebrations were hardly confined to Baghdad. This one is in Kurdish-controlled territory, the city of Erbil in the north. And this one is in Dearborn, Michigan, home to thousands of Iraqi-Americans. Those are the details. But again, one picture and one short piece of sound tell the real story of the day. The picture will take a place in history as now will the regime of Saddam Hussein.
RUMSFELD: Saddam Hussein is now taking his rightful place alongside Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Ceausescu in the pantheon of failed brutal dictators. And the Iraqi people are well on their way to freedom.
BROWN: That is the big picture of the day. There are lots of small pieces of the puzzle, but none of them can overshadow the sense that everyone felt this morning here in the east when they watched that statue fall. Before the war it was virtually impossible to get Iraqis to speak openly about anything at all except for their rehearsed praise for Saddam Hussein. Reporters had to read an arch of an eyebrow or a settle gesture. There was nothing subtle today as the statue came down. The emotion were raw and angry and euphoric all at the same time.
Here's how that played out as seen by British reporter Neil Connery.
NEIL CONNERY, BRITISH REPORTER (voice-over): Into the very heart of Baghdad U.S. tanks and troops finally arrived, spelling the end for the Iraqi regime. The stars and stripes have come to town. Saddam Hussein's reign of terror is over.
(on camera): So nearly three weeks after this war began, U.S. forces are now coming into the center of Baghdad. This is what regime change looks like.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, just keep the truck off to the side. There's too much over here already.
CONNERY: But no one here was taking any chances, checking all the time for possible resistance.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there's no barrels, nothing on the roof.
CONNERY (on camera): Are you pleased to be in Baghdad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feeling of satisfaction, I guess, it's almost over. Get to go home soon.
CONNERY: What's it like being in the middle of Baghdad?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's kind of crazy. Pretty good warm welcome from everybody kind of.
CONNERY: Good luck. Stay safe.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. You too.
CONNERY (voice-over): The welcome was definitely warm.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to Baghdad. I say to the American people. And thank you for all things in Iraq.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you.
CONNERY: The president's rule is no more. Years of repression and brutality have been brought to a close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody here suffered a lot from the unfair regime of Saddam Hussein and all his -- you know, his soldiers and the others. And we just want to get rid of him these days, and let's wait and see what's America heading for us.
CONNERY: Saddam's statue soon became the focus of the crowd's anger. In front of our hotel Iraqis were burning pictures of the president. Back at the statue they found a ladder and a rope. The people were determined to topple Saddam.
(on camera): Tell me, will you bring this statue down?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes!
CONNERY (voice-over): A few hours later they'd found a crane to do the job. For decades his image could be seen at almost every turn in this country, but everything has changed here now. And then, as evening fell, so did Saddam, removed from power.
(CHEERING)
CONNERY: They are a people free at last to express what they really think. Saddam has gone.
Neil Connery, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: A breathtaking day. Craig Nelson of the Cox News service, the big broadcasting and newspaper company, is at the Palestine Hotel across the square from where the statue fell, and he joins us now. What was the night like there -- Craig.
CRAIG NELSON, "COX NEWSPAPERS": It was quite a quiet night until two or three hours ago. There was a great deal of relief around the hotel. There are dozens of U.S. tanks and armored personnel carriers and hundreds of marines. But about two or three hours ago there were explosions on the horizon and there have been sporadic explosions since. So it's a reminder that the war isn't over. There was a dramatic day yesterday with some incredible psychological change here in the population of -- in Baghdad. But the war goes on. There are pockets of the city where there's looting, there's violence, and there's simply no government, no administration in control. So this remains a very volatile place.
BROWN: Did people just start to drift away as night came, go back to their homes, the people who were celebrating that we all saw?
NELSON: Yes. I mean, there's a large percentage of Baghdad's population actually had left the city. This is a deserted -- in many neighborhoods there are simply no cars on the street and the houses are empty. So, people went back to their homes, those that had remained in Baghdad, and we'll see what happens today. Today should be a very interesting day as dawn breaks behind me, we'll see how many come out and see what their reaction is to the changes that have transformed this place in the last 24 hours.
BROWN: Generally, the conditions in the city, is there electricity in most places? Is there water running in most places?
NELSON: No. Electricity and water are sporadic. Especially on the outskirts of the city. We -- there have been frequent power outages. There is starting to be great concerns by the International Committee of the Red Cross and other NGOS about water. So there's a looming humanitarian crisis.
There's a looming problem with security. It's definitely -- there's definitely a series of problems here that have to be taken care of. We talked to the Marine commander here last night who was in charge of the armored unit that came in here yesterday, and he said we're in the war-making business, not the policing business. And he was very, very concerned about getting troops and other U.S. forces in here that could do the policing. He recognizes that that's a big need right now.
BROWN: Tell me a bit about the moment that you -- excuse me -- that you came to realize that the government had fallen, that there was this historic moment that you were about to witness.
NELSON: Well, I realized it early this morning when we -- when some colleagues and I went to a vegetable market that we've been going to quite frequently just to gauge the mood. And what we found there were people that were telling us stories that they hadn't told us before. All the inhibitions that they had had previously, most of them were gone. They were telling us about their history, you know, what had happened to their brothers or sisters in Iraqi prisons. They told us about how either angry or sad they were about what the Americans were doing. I mean, regardless of what the emotion was, what was amazing about it is that it was being expressed. Now, one important caveat here is that many of these people refused to give us their names. The fear isn't going to go away overnight. It remains here. And it's going to be a factor in how the administration shapes up here as slowly, slowly the apparatus of Saddam's regime falls apart and dissolves.
BROWN: Craig, thanks for your time. Get some sleep. Probably been a while. We appreciate your good work all day long. Thank you. Craig Nelson, who's with the "Cox Newspaper" chain, big broadcasting communications company.
As we were going off the air early this morning, 2:00 this morning, we had gotten word that Walt Rodgers reported that all the Iraqi troops, according to U.S. military sources, had left, and Rym Brahimi talking to her sources in Amman, Jordan, had gotten word that the city was quiet, all the minders were gone, all the government officials seemed to be gone. And we left the air saying over a picture of Baghdad who knows what this day will bring? We couldn't have imagined, nor could many of you, I expect, imagined what the day brings. I don't know that they imagined it at the White House it would end quite the way it did. But that scene was certainly seen at the White House. The statue toppling.
We're joined by our senior White House correspondent tonight, John King.
John, good evening.
JOHN KING, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you Aaron. President Bush watched some of those celebrations in the streets of Baghdad around the statue of Saddam. Make no mistake about it. The president is quite pleased. But he's a bit concerned that those pictures might convince the American people mission accomplished. The president is telling top aides, don't declare victory yet there are still dangerous days ahead.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING: A powerful snapshot but with the celebration came a challenge for a White House determined to make clear down does not mean out and that the war is hardly over.
RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There may well be hard fighting yet ahead. Regime forces are still in control in Northern Iraq, in Mosul and Kirkuk and Tikrit.
KING: Yet with the caution came a small dose of "we told you so."
CHENEY: In the early days of the war the plan was criticized by some retired military officers embedded in TV studios. But with every day and every advance by our coalition forces the wisdom of that plan becomes more apparent.
KING: As the troops press on, the administration is accelerating planning for post-war Iraq. Retired Army General Jay Garner leads the civil authority that will move in soon and run key services until power can be handed over to a new interim Iraqi authority. The administration blueprint still has no firm timetable for getting the interim authority up and running, but planning meetings in southern Iraq will begin as early as next week, involving a mix of indigenous Iraqis and exiles and dissidents now returning home, with general Tommy Franks in charge of the invitations. The hope is that with Saddam Hussein out of the picture local leaders will naturally emerge to help shape the new authority. FLEISCHER: The president has very high levels of faith in the ability of the Iraqi people to govern themselves and make these decisions for themselves.
KING: Iraqi national Congress leader Amhad Chalabi is a favorite of many top Bush advisers, and will be among those invited to post war planing sessions. But his complaints that the admiration is moving to slowly with reconstruction efforts have annoyed even some of his top administration supporters. And officials stress he is but one of many voices in the post-war political debate.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: And we are told before this week is out perhaps as early as tomorrow the president himself will lay out his sense of the challenges still ahead behind the scenes here at the White House, a palpable sense of vindication. And while caution remains the public watch-word, the guidance to all aides here, do not gloat, you are hearing administration believing that victory is at hand not only in Iraq, the vice president saying today he believes when this war is over there will be a powerful domino effect, this administration believes, across the Middle East -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, that was one of the underlying themes for the administration. It is not by accident, I assume, that we did not see the president today.
KING: Not an accident at all. They did not want the president out because they believed that would be moving the bar, if you will. That if we saw the president talking about those remarkable scenes there was no way for him not to get excited, to get animated, and the white house does not want to leave the impression that this is over by any means. There is a great glee here at the White House, if you will, that those pictures. And those stories Craig Nelson was just talking about will send a powerful message across the Arab world. Some concern at the White House, though, that those pictures will affect public opinion here at home. Those troops are going to be in Iraq for some time to come, and over the next several days and weeks there could be more fighting and more casualties. The White House is worried the American people might get too relaxed.
BROWN: John, thank you. Good to have you with us tonight. Our senior White House correspondent, John King.
There was another president we didn't see today, that was Saddam Hussein. Not knowing what became of Saddam has to add a sense of caution being expressed by the administration. At some point he may simply become irrelevant, as pictures today seem to indicate, but clearly the wishes for the bogey man to be gone or to be dead or to be captured, not merely missing.
CNN's David Ensor, national security correspondent, joins us with the Saddam part of the story.
David, good evening. DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, as we've seen already, Saddam Hussein's regime is evaporating. But his fate remains unknown, and it is not without consequence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: As the regime appeared to go up in smoke, U.S. officials said its control in Baghdad has disintegrated. As for Saddam Hussein, officials still don't know his fate.
RUMSFELD: He's either dead or he's incapacitated or he's healthy and cowering in some tunnel someplace, trying to avoid being caught.
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: He is still important because there are people who will continue to fight as long as he is alive.
ENSOR: Rumors flew that Saddam might be in the Russian embassy in Baghdad. False, said the Russians, and U.S. Officials too. It seemed clear after meetings at the White House that senior intelligence officials were pleased with the way things are going. But urgent tasks remain, including finding weapons of mass destruction, keeping any of them from moving out of the country. The U.S. is offering rewards and amnesty for help. U.S. intelligence must also account for all the members of the regime, the intelligence, the police, the Fedayeen Saddam that may still be alive, and figure out who in Iraq can be trusted. It is a mammoth task.
POLLACK: Vet Iraqi personnel, vet Iraqi bureaucrats, determine those who really do have enough blood on their hands that they probably should be excluded from a post-war administration. And those who can be brought back in and help to set up a new transitional authority to help to administer the country.
ENSOR: Then there are the neighbors to worry about.
Secretary Rumsfeld complained about the role of Syria.
RUMSFELD: Senior regime people are moving out of Iraq into Syria, and Syria is continuing to send things into Iraq. We find it notably unhelpful.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: U.S. officials say despite a lot of rumors they have no solid information that any senior Iraqi officials have entered Syria, though some of their families have. That border is being watched very closely by the U.S.
And Aaron, one more taste of the kind of flavor about Saddam Hussein that we're hearing right now. Another report on another network this evening said that Saddam had survived. This person's sources said he had been in the restaurant next to the building that was struck on Monday night. His bodyguards had pulled him out and rushed him off in a car, which might have been attacked but they believed had gotten away. I've spoken to a couple of U.S. officials this evening who say they heard that rumor, they're not sure if it's true or not -- Aaron.
BROWN: I assume that the region is full of rumor. One of the great mysteries, David, is what happened to the regime?
Literally over the last 24 hours there was the sense that everybody just sort of up and disappeared. Presumably there is intelligence on this.
Are we able to figure it out?
ENSOR: Well, interestingly this morning the first calls that I made I was hearing from officials that they were fascinated, but not one member of Saddam Hussein's cabinet had reported for work today. Nobody came into the ministries. They were empty. And there weren't any guards. It was -- it was really quite extraordinary.
BROWN: Someday we'll know the answer to that.
David, thank you. Our national security correspondent, David Ensor.
When the defense secretary said there's more fighting to be done, he could point due north of Baghdad to prove it. Iraqi forces are still holding on in many spots across the north, but that did not stop people in Kurdish-controlled Iraq from rejoicing. For the Kurds this is bitterly personal. The scars they have come from Saddam Hussein. They are both emotional and literal.
For more on their story today from CNN's Ben Wedeman, who joins us now.
Ben, good evening.
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, good evening, Aaron.
Well, it didn't take long for that news from Baghdad to spread throughout the Kurdish-controlled areas of Iraq. Here in he in Erbil there was immediate reaction to the news of the apparent collapse of Saddam Hussein's authority in Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WEDEMAN (voice-over): It's hard not to love a winner, especially when the guy on your side looks like he's clobbering the neighborhood bully. It didn't take long for the news from Baghdad to reach the Kurdish stronghold of Erbil.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: USA! USA!
WEDEMAN: And send the people out here dancing in the streets.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down down Saddam! Yes yes America! Yes yes Bush!
WEDEMAN: A new face has joined Kurdistan's collection of old heroes. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mr. Bush, because the leader of the United States like freedom for Kurdish and anyone.
WEDEMAN: This part of Iraq has been freed from Saddam Hussein's control since 1991. The statues and posters of the Iraqi leader torn down years ago. But still pervasive until today was the fear that Saddam Hussein would once again unleash his chemical weapons on the rebellious Kurds.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
WEDEMAN: And one sobering thought in all of this is that despite the dramatic changes we've seen in Baghdad here in northern Iraq the Iraqi army still is very much in control of the cities of Kirkuk and Mosul. So even though there have been some changes, some movement on the front lines in the last 24 hours, there's still about 100,000 Iraqis under arms in the north of the country -- Aaron.
BROWN: Ben, thank you. Ben Wedeman, who's been up in the northern part of Iraq for a while now.
Simon Robinson is on the phone. He is with "Time" magazine in Baghdad. He witnessed the statue coming down. And in fact this morning we heard him describe it. Simon, it's good to have you with us. At what point in the day did you realize that you were going to report history?
SIMON ROBINSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Only very shortly before it happened. The marine battalion that I was traveling with, Aaron, moved out around lunch-time to push north from the southeastern suburbs of Baghdad. They were to clear an area. They quickly realized that the area didn't really need clearing because they weren't coming up against any sort of resistance and finding very little. So they pressed much further ahead than they had expected to on orders from their higher ups.
And within around half an hour they were sitting in the -- in one of the central squares in eastern Baghdad with a lot of Iraqis coming out onto the roads clapping and cheering. And in those amazing scenes that we saw soon after where the -- first the Iraqis were pelting the statue of Saddam with their shoes, which in the Arab world is a very strong insult. And then the Marine battalion, one of their tanks drove up onto the center of the square and used a winch to pull over the statue of Saddam to the crowd's delight.
BROWN: Simon, was it clear even early in the morning that something on the ground in Baghdad had changed overnight?
ROBINSON: Perhaps even the day before. The battalion that I had been traveling with from Kuwait had crossed a river in southeastern Baghdad and sister battalions within the 7th Marine Regiment had also managed to do that. And commanders were talking about they'd broken the will of the Iraqi soldiers to fight. They really came up against very little resistance from Tuesday morning. So all Tuesday and Wednesday they were able to move fairly quickly. That's not to say that there weren't pockets of resistance. Indeed, there was fighting only around two miles from the scenes that we saw today in a university compound. But fairly small pockets relative to the fights that they've had up to this point.
BROWN: Simon, your commentary this morning was gripping to those of us who were watching it. We thank you for your time tonight.
Simon Robinson, who's a correspondent with "Time" magazine.
We haven't heard a thing from the Iraqi government except what you're about to hear. It came from their U.N. ambassador in New York as he was moving back into his residence. It was short and very quick, and you have to listen carefully to hear it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALDOURI: My hope now is peace. For everybody. This is what I have.
QUESTION: Since you're only going to say it once, let us just get it setup
ALDOURI: Sorry?
QUESTION: Let me just ask you...
ALDOURI: No. I have no -- I cannot answer your question. I told you, I repeat it again, the game is over. I hope the peace will prevail and with the Iraqi people at the end of the day will have a peaceful life.
QUESTION: What do you mean that the game is over, sir?
ALDOURI: The war, I mean.
QUESTION: So you are convinced the war is over?
ALDOURI: Yes, yes, yes. Yes, of course.
QUESTION: What is the situation with Saddam Hussein?
ALDOURI: Well, I don't know. This is better ask the American. I have no relationship with Saddam. So I can't tell you. I am here like you. Thank you.
QUESTION: Explain to me, sir, what do you mean you have no relationship with Saddam, what does that mean?
ALDOURI: Now I have no communication with Iraq. I am here. So I know nothing about what is going there.
QUESTION: What do you make, sir, of the pictures you've seen of -- all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That seems to be what's left of the Iraqi government. One diplomat in New York. Christiane Amanpour, is in Kuwait tonight, but not for long. She joins us from there.
Christiane, it's good to see you.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, good morning.
You can imagine Kuwait is the most interested neighbor of Iraq and is very, very pleased that this has happened. We have one little element to show you here, the morning paper, "Saddam off his pedestal," and that pretty much sums up what the Kuwaitis have been hoping for the last 12 years. During yesterday's live pictures of the bringing down of that statue, anchors here were saying, God is great, using the Arabic Allah Akbar.
By contrast, of course, this is being reacted in different ways in different Arab capitals. Syria, which has been the most vocal against the war, showed pictures of what happened but did not show jubilation and also showed the civilian casualties, of which there were many, that were being taken into hospitals, and reporting that ambulances couldn't get them and evacuate people from areas that were still something of a firefight zone in Iraq. But I think the overwhelming feeling that we're getting from the Arab press is that they are just surprised.
They don't understand how this happened so quickly. Many people around the world believed the years of propaganda that has come out of Baghdad, that there would be a stiff fight, that the Republican Guards and the Special Republican Guards and the Special Security Organizations, you know, all these names and acronyms that have been raised as these, you know, big tigers in fact turned out to be paper tigers.
And people are having a hard time digesting that in the Arab world and trying to come to terms with the pictures of the historic nature of what happened there yesterday. And the jubilation we've seen. Although of course that is still quite limited, nonetheless they're still having difficulty coming to terms with that, and I think that's going to be an important challenge for people around the Arab and Muslim world. You know -- they all want to know where the resistance went to.
BROWN: You think there's nervousness in the Arab world about what's to come in this domino theory that the Americans have?
AMANPOUR: I do think that. I think that there's nervousness in that respect. I think that there's relief probably that Saddam is gone. I think there's nervousness about a post-Iraq -- post-war Iraq. Many people genuinely are concerned about the possible factionalization of Iraq. They're looking right now at the looting and the anarchy that's going on in the main big cities that have been liberated and they're hoping that that doesn't turn into something and descend into something worse. So there is worry about that for sure. And as I say, it's always been the post-war scenario that has caused people in this part of the world the most worry.
BROWN: Christiane, good to have you with us tonight. I suspect I'll be seeing you soon out there. Thank you very much. Christiane Amanpour.
We'll talk with General Wesley Clark and much more.
We need to take a break first. Our coverage continues on a historic day in just a moment.
I want to get to General Wesley Clark before the half-hour.
Quickly, General, you warn us often of the -- to watch ourselves go from elation to depression too quickly. Clearly, the needle moved towards elation.
RET. GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: It did, and justifiably so.
I think all of us have to be very proud of the accomplishments of the men and women who did the fighting and also pleased to see the reaction of the people that we saw on the streets in Baghdad. It's just that we've got to be somewhat circumspect about this, Aaron, because we don't know what lies ahead. And there are near-term challenges and there are further challenges that need to be explored, considered. And the American people need to recognize what may lie ahead.
BROWN: And many of those questions are questions we'll put on the table over the next couple of hours with you. We're glad to have you with us.
We'll take a break to update the day's headlines. And our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There was a lot of celebrating today, not just in parts of downtown Baghdad, but also in the heart of Middle America.
Jamie Colby is looking at the reaction among Iraqi-Americans in different spots around the country, including a very large Arab- American community just outside Detroit in Dearborn, Michigan.
So, Jamie, it's good to see you again.
JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, good to see you, too.
That's where we are, in Dearborn. And like many of us, Iraqis living in the U.S. have been glued to their TVs since this war began, watching coverage and awaiting the news they say they got today: pictures that suggest the freedoms they've found in America will be restored in Iraq. And though they've resumed their monitoring of the coverage tonight, they say that they were happy to take the day off today, Aaron, hit the streets, and celebrate.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Long live the Iraqi people. Yes!
COLBY (voice-over): In El Cajon, California, Iraqis rejoice for loved ones back home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to thank again United States government for this helping, and also British soldiers, British government. I want to thanks them for this help. We are very happy.
COLBY: There is also a sense of relief in Dearborn, Michigan. Half a world away from Baghdad, the largest U.S. population of Iraqis lives and took to the streets here to share this victory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are four millions Iraqis in exile. Two million Iraqis got killed by Saddam. Hundreds of thousand of men and women and children in the prison. So what do you expect? It is a celebration. Thanks God.
COLBY: Children not old enough to know the horrors the adults lived firsthand joined in to say they are grateful Iraqi children will suffer no more.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're happy that Saddam Hussein is gone and the children are having peace.
COLBY: A procession to a rally of 2,000 Iraqis, as Dearborn thanks President Bush and coalition forces for a taste of freedom they've waited 35 years to savor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a beautiful day, not for me, for all Iraqi guys, for all the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down with Saddam.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Down with Saddam.
COLBY: Iraqis here are saying never mind whether Saddam's dead or alive. His days in control are done. Though Eefa Khudem (ph), a mother of five expelled from her homeland in 1984, has one final wish for Saddam.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wish he's not dead so I can kill him again and so I can see him actually dead. That's what I'd like to see.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COLBY: And I want to tell you, Aaron, that many Iraqis that I've talked to here in Dearborn say they will return to Iraq, some to live, some to find relatives that were imprisoned by Saddam, and some to do whatever they can to help build the new Iraq.
And I also want to show you some video today from that rally. An Al-Jazeera reporter took a bit of a beating. They were not very happy to see him. Apparently, Al-Jazeera, this was their first visit to Dearborn. They hadn't been covering anything here before. And there was a feeling among the Iraqis at the rally that Al-Jazeera has been unfair in its coverage of the war and a bit too pro-Saddam -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jamie, thank you. That's an interesting look there, Jamie Colby, and an interesting assignment today.
COLBY: Thank you.
BROWN: We'll take a break.
When we come back, we'll show you how just unsafe it remains in Baghdad, or at least how unsafe it was in the moments the statue was coming down -- but a break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire! Cease fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Shoot it. Do it again. Fire again.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes! Nice shot!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Let's go! Hey! Sustain. How much ammo you got? Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hey, slow down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire! Cease fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's ordnance exploding out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Target! Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fire!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire!
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We have not mentioned enough the work of our photographers. That was Scott McGwinny's (ph) work. And it was work.
So, is the war over? It's a question we had our pollsters ask today.
As you take a look at Baghdad the morning after the extraordinary afternoon, we'll take a break. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The last few days have been breathtaking in many ways, lots of remarkable images, lots of things for all of you to think about. And we sent our pollsters out to figure out what's on your minds and how you're viewing all of this.
And to interpret that, our senior political analyst, Bill Schneider is here -- Bill.
WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, you asked a few minutes ago if the needle has moved towards elation.
And the answer is, well, maybe a little bit. But I think people have been watching those pictures that we just saw at the University of Baghdad, because we asked people tonight, is the war over? And the answer may surprise you, because the answer is, no, Americans don't think so.
Only 15 percent, 15 percent of Americans, think this war is over. Hold the ticker tape; 44 percent believe there's minor fighting ahead; 37 percent say there are major battles ahead. Americans are not ready to declare victory and come home. They want to finish this job. Now, what does it mean? Does that mean to finish off Saddam Hussein?
Well, get this. Two-thirds of Americans think Saddam Hussein is still alive, even though you see that 66 percent. It's down a little bit, but, still, two-thirds say he's still alive, even though we did drop a very serious bomb on his house on Monday night, where we thought he was. Now, does the U.S. have to get Saddam Hussein to win this war?
Interestingly, on that issue, people are split. About half say they would consider it a victory even if the U.S. does not capture Saddam Hussein or find evidence that he's been killed. So what if he's alive? It doesn't matter. He's finished. There are still a lot of battles ahead. And I think what this poll is saying: that a lost Americans say, you know, it can't be this easy.
BROWN: And the polling was done, just to be clear, over a period of days, including today. And they weight the averages.
SCHNEIDER: Well, no, these results were from tonight.
BROWN: Tonight only.
SCHNEIDER: Earlier results were from the last two days. But the results that I went over were from tonight.
BROWN: OK. So that factors in all of the day's news.
Do people have any feel for what the post-war Iraq ought to look like?
SCHNEIDER: Well, we asked whether they thought the United States or the United Nations ought to run Iraq until an interim government is chosen, and this a bit of a surprise, because almost as many people say the U.N. should run Iraq as the U.S.
If the U.N. takes responsibility, a lot of Americans will not be outraged. I think there's a message here. And what it suggests is, most Americans do not regard this as a conquest. They're perfectly happy -- about half the country's perfectly happy to say, let the U.N. run it.
BROWN: Bill, thank you.
Let's bring in Ken Pollack, who's been with us a number of times before, but never quite in a moment like this.
Let me just -- let's start this. We've got about 90 seconds. Are you stunned with the speed with which this regime ultimately fell?
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Honestly, no, Aaron. I always expected that this could come apart very quickly if necessary. I was a little bit surprised by the lack of resistance in Baghdad. But I also tended to expect that after we saw that Republican Guard line crumble about a week ago.
BROWN: I remember you saying very early on -- and it may even have been before the war -- that these regimes tend to be quite brittle. They may look strong, in many ways are, but they're brittle and one dent and they collapse.
POLLACK: Right. Well, this is the point, is, we never know exactly how strong they are. But there is a process whereby, if you can hit them hard enough and hit them in the right way, they can come apart very quickly. And this is what we saw in Eastern Europe. Those regimes there that looked like they would survive for centuries came apart very quickly.
BROWN: Let me bring General Clark in.
General Clark, the other night, two nights ago, we were looking at fighting. And I asked you, how long do you think this will go on? Is this going to go on weeks? Is it going to go on months? And you said, no, a couple days. You knew something.
CLARK: Well, I've always felt this was a two- to three-week war. Once I realized we had only the relatively smaller force on the ground, I sort of upped it to about three weeks. And I was a little bit surprised that there was as much resistance in the cities.
But we never expected a contest with the Iraqi military. And, frankly, we never expected a tough fight. I never expected a tough fight in Baghdad, because, by the time you got there, after you'd gone through so much, they'd be so demoralized by the bombing, it would be over. So I think the military lived up to the quality that those of us who know it well expected of our men and women in uniform. They did a great job. And it's what we expected.
BROWN: One more military question. Then I'll go back to Ken.
Up north, there are still Iraqi soldiers. And, presumably, there is some command structure of those soldiers. Absent a regime, honestly, why would they fight?
CLARK: Well, it's not clear they will fight.
BROWN: Yes.
CLARK: There's a lot of inertia in military organizations. And it's quite possible that what you see are people hunkered down in position, waiting for someone to come up and say: OK, lay them down, boys. That's it. It's over.
They may fight. And we just don't know. So you've got to go up there prepared for a fight. You've got to be up there also prepared with a message to take them in peacefully, if they're willing to come peacefully in.
BROWN: Ken, before we go to break here, how concerned should people be at what was also a somewhat chaotic situation in Baghdad today, lots of looting, all the rest, not anarchy, but darn near close?
POLLACK: I think we need to be keeping our eye on this. This is a real potential problem out there.
This is a very big country, 24 million people badly repressed for all of these years. If we don't get our troops on the ground and start imposing some degree of order on this society, you could start to see things come apart. And while we can probably put it back together again, there might be a lot of blood on the ground before we can do so.
BROWN: Both Ken and General Clark, stay with us for a while tonight. We've got much more to do.
There's no question there are still military operations going on. The pictures prove the point. These come from the Constellation. And they came in just moments ago. So, pilots are still flying missions. But no one knows where the regime is.
We'll take a break. Our coverage continues in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's easy to get fixated on that one remarkable image of the statue coming down in Baghdad today. But that is one place, one moment, one time, one group of people. The story of what's happening in Iraq is in fact, as we always say, a collection of snapshots, some inspiring, some scary, some horrible, some confusing. War and its aftermath can be all of those things.
Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Photographers call this a money shot, a picture that captures a moment in time, a picture that makes you feel. And, at the Pentagon, it felt good.
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Certainly, anyone seeing the faces of the liberated Iraqis, the free Iraqis, has to say that this is a very good day.
CROWLEY: It is just what the Bush administration had hoped for: Saddam-hating, U.S.-loving, waving, very grateful Iraqis.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, Mr. Bush. We very like Mr. Bush.
CROWLEY: But there are other pictures, troubling, scary, sad, that tell a different story about the same place.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: See how many children you killed!
CROWLEY: This is what's called a three-block war. What you see depends on the block you're on: the destruction of tyranny in one place, anarchy in another.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you. Thank you.
CROWLEY: Looters, mostly at government buildings, hauled off tires, window frames, whatever they found, as though they were taking just because they can.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
CROWLEY: Iraq is a place now where the welcome can be as warm as it can be deadly.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cease fire! Cease fire!
CROWLEY: It is a place where some Marines can be at ease and others cannot.
In Iraq, in this moment, some people celebrate the possibility of a new life, while others simply try to hold on to the one they have. The story of Iraq in this moment cannot be caught in a picture. Iraq is an album.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll take a break, update the day's headlines.
And then, imagine for a moment what it was like to be a soldier riding today into the city of Baghdad.
We'll take you on the ride in a moment.
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