Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Pentagon Officials Caution Dangerous Days May Yet Lie Ahead

Aired April 09, 2003 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN HOST: In the wars of old, only soldiers could know what it was like to make the final move into the capital city for their final battles. That is not true anymore. But then, not much about the reporting of this war was like any other.
Thanks to astonishing technology, journalist have been able to go along for the ride, including the ride today into Baghdad.

Here's a report from John Irvine of British ITN.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JOHN IRVINE, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To venture out was a calculated risk, but an irresistible one. We'd heard no gunfire and there were enough Iraqi cars on the road to give us confidence.

One of the first places we reached was an office used by Saddam Hussein's secret police. Here his numerous portraits were going up in flames. At last, ordinary Iraqis were showing their true feelings towards their leader.

When people saw our camera, they couldn't hide their delight at the turn of events.

Further on, we spoke to some civilians who told me how they felt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam go. I am happy. I am happy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feeling free. Freedom. Freedom.

IRVINE: Then all of the sudden, the United States Marines showed up.

(on camera): This is one of those extraordinary moments, something I never really thought I would see on the streets of the Iraqi capitol.

(voice-over): The Americans gestured for us to come and meet them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you doing?

IRVINE (on camera): My name's John Irvine, from ITN.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) how you doing? Nice to meet you.

IRVINE: Sergeant?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes sir.

IRVINE: Welcome to Baghdad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

IRVINE: How does it feel to be here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels pretty good. I mean, nice to, you know, represent the Marine Corp. here.

IRVINE (voice-over): The Marines were destroying Iraqi weaponry they'd found in the back of a lorry.

The soldiers appeared relaxed. Some were clearly exhausted, but others were keen to talk about their experiences.

(on camera): What sort of response have you had from ordinary civilians you've come across?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, the civilians have been very cooperative. They're pretty cheerful that we're here and we haven't had any conflicts with them whatsoever.

IRVINE (voice-over): Several Marines were guarding the hotel that had been the base for the U.N. weapons inspectors in Baghdad. Looters had been here and the Americans rescued U.N. cars before they were driven away.

At one point, the soldiers thought they were coming under fire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Snipers got eyes on, sir. They're looking right now.

IRVINE: The snipers with eyes on were too Marine sharp shooters on the hotel roof, but they weren't needed. Eventually the Marine commander decided that the Iraqi gunfire was probably more celebratory than aggressive.

Just a few hours later, the U.S. Cavalry rode straight into the city center unopposed.

A war of three weeks has brought an end to decades of Iraqi misery.

John Irvine, ITV News, in liberated Baghdad.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BROWN: Liberated Baghdad. The Pentagon briefing today ran its normal length of time, but as usual the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld found a way to sum things up in a single sentence, in this case 14 seconds long.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECY. OF DEFENSE: Saddam Hussein is now taking his rightful place alongside Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Ceausescu in the pantheon of failed brutal dictators, and the Iraqi people are well on their way to freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: If we stole the best sound byte, we didn't steal all the substance from the Pentagon briefing today.

We're joined by our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre tonight. Jamie, good evening.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.

Well, you know they always talk about the tipping point here at the Pentagon, and they also always say they're cautiously optimistic. And if there was a tipping point in this room today, it was tipping slightly less on the caution and a little more toward the optimistic.

Nevertheless, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld warned that there could be dangerous days ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUMSFELD: Good afternoon.

MCINTYRE (voice-over): For Donald Rumsfeld, April 9 was V-Day.

RUMSFELD: This is a good day for the Iraqi people.

MCINTYRE: Too soon to declare victory, perhaps, but not too soon to feel vindicated for the much second guessed war strategy that now appears to be working as brilliantly as the Pentagon claimed it would.

Rumsfeld credits his commanders and especially their troops.

RUMSFELD: They drove through the south up, braving dust storms and death squads, to reach Baghdad in record time. They secured Iraq's southern oilfields for the Iraqi people, took out terrorist camps in the north and the south, secured large sections of western Iraq, preventing the regime from attacking its neighbors with SCUD missiles. They've liberated cities and towns and are now in the Iraqi capitol, removing the regime from its seat of power and center of gravity.

MCINTYRE: By comparison, the 1991 Persian Gulf War to liberate Kuwait required more than 500,000 troops, took six weeks, and resulted in 300 U.S. deaths. So far, the war to liberate Iraq has involved roughly 300,000 U.S. and British troops, lasted three weeks, with just over 130 coalition deaths.

DICK CHENEY, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Bottom line: with less than half of the ground forces and 2/3 of the air assets used 12 years ago in Desert Storm, Secretary Rumsfeld and General Franks have achieved a far more difficult objective.

MCINTYRE: Military analysts point out a number of revolutionary aspects of the campaign, including the ability of a B-1 heavy bomber to strike precisely Saddam Hussein's last known location within 45 minutes of the U.S. receiving intelligence.

And perhaps even more impressive, the ability of U.S. ground forces to maintain their march on Baghdad with only short pauses.

When the statue of Saddam Hussein came down in Baghdad, the dual symbolism wasn't lost on the Pentagon. Not only did it show the Iraqi people's desire to topple Saddam, but it showed they couldn't do it without the muscle of the U.S. military.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now the Pentagon continues to warn against premature celebrations and that hard battles may remain ahead, but in executing a war plan that planned for the worst but yet allowed for the best, the Pentagon appears to have capitalized on that ancient axiom "fortune `favors the bold" -- Aaron.

BROWN: For all their public caution, honestly, were there high- fives in the hallways of the Pentagon today?

MCINTYRE: Well, there was a lot of -- there was a lot of grinning, a lot of very positive feeling, but also the recognition that there's always a tendency to start to too quickly reach the conclusion that everything is fine.

They know from experience that after this euphoria dies down can be some really hard work of finishing off the task, and then the tough task of peacekeeping and, in this case, nation-building.

BROWN: They don't have a lot of troops in the north, in these critical centers in the north where there are still substantial numbers of Iraqi soldiers. So what's the plan on getting them there?

MCINTYRE: Well, of course, the Army's 4th Infantry Division will be entering Iraq from Kuwait sometime this week. That's a full division of troops. They'll be rushing up toward the north.

The United States is also continuing to fly in more troops and equipment in the north, directly from Germany and other places in Europe.

But you're right, they don't have the kind of forces in the north there that they had in the south. However, the way the country is going, they may be able to, again, leverage the minimum amount of troops with the maximum amount of effect. A lot of it depends on what happens around Tikrit, which is seen as perhaps a final stronghold, and they are continuing to attack Tikrit from the air and engage in some places on the ground even though we can't see it because we don't have cameras there.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

And in fact just a few moments ago we showed you airplanes taking off, or landing, on the USS Constellation, proving the point that air operations do continue.

Here in our coverage last night we showcased some especially heavy resistance encountered by members of the 101st Airborne near Hillah, which is essentially ancient Babylon.

Today the Screaming Eagles entered the town and the pictures could not be more different.

CNN's Ryan Chilcote was with them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Soldiers from the 101st Airborne's 3rd Brigade came into downtown Hillah ready for a fight.

Seizing a courthouse with their guns blazing, they went from room to room in search of Iraqi fighters, but nothing more than a portrait of Saddam Hussein hanging impudently on the wall to stop them.

Instead of armed resistance, the Rakkasans had to fight their way through streets of cheering crowds and public displays of affection.

(on camera): What is amazing to see is exactly how quickly the resistance to U.S. forces in Hillah melted away. Just yesterday, the Rakkasans were engaged in a major firefight here.

(voice-over): Today, the Screaming Eagles began a war for hearts and minds, giving fuel to a water treatment plant and a power station of sorts.

Still, many Iraqis said it will take time for the Americans to win their trust, one man telling the two-start....

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't want to be the first or the last point, the critical point, you make friendship with him, or reconcile with him or anything like that. Any honest Iraqi person wish to see a good man controlling Iraq, not to (UNINTELLIGIBLE), won by another bad one.

CHILCOTE: For now, there is a vacuum here and Hillah, home to the old Babylon, and this palace, which many here say Saddam was building for himself, part of his campaign to build a new Babylon, are under American control.

The only question now is, what to do next.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne, in Hillah, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, that is a question being asked all over the country. Here's what one resident of Basra said today about the henchmen of the Saddam Hussein regime: "We're glad they are gone, but right now we need safety more than anything."

Which is to say that the fighting may be largely over in places like Basra, but the work of establishing order has just begun.

British reporter Bill Neely filed this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL NEELY, ITV CORRESPONDENT: The news from Baghdad reached Basra fast. Saddam is finished they cried, apart from one last stand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kill in Iraq.

NEELY (on camera): He will die in Iraq?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will die here now. Saddam is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Iraq, in Baghdad. No go.

NEELY (voice-over): Iraqis here are astonished even by news from their own city. There is now no law, little order and lots of looting here. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) huge warehouses stripped today of soap, sugar, flour, anything these people could haul out.

(on camera): If British troops are needed anywhere, they're needed here, but they're nowhere to be seen. They're judgment is, they're not a police force. But there's a fine line between that judgment and complete anarchy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need bullets and supplies to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NEELY (voice-over): Across the city in the banking district there were British troops and there was mayhem.

The man is terrified. He's part of a crowd that attacked a bank with rocket-propelled grenades. The looters carrying one of their own who was killed.

The crowd is small, the troops are nervous. This is a city teetering on the edge of anarchy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is from Iraqi people. Why broken these? Why broken?

NEELY: The troops check the vault behind the safe door for looters or loot, but there's nothing. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In their attempt to gain entry into the vault, they were firing grenades into it. They actually incinerated all of the money they were after in the first place.

NEELY (on camera): There's no Iraqi police, no Iraqi army. Do you feel you're in control?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we are. We're fully in control at the moment of the city.

NEELY (voice-over): But they're not sure where the thieves will strike next.

MARGARET HITCHCOCK, AL RAHMAN (ph) RESIDENT: You've got the ammunition. You've got the position to do something.

NEELY: Next (UNINTELLIGIBLE) residential suburbs, and Margaret Hitchcock, originally from Plymouth, is furious.

HITCHCOCK: They're frightened from the people breaking into their houses, breaking into their houses, hurting them, causing trouble. I mean...

NEELY (on camera): Who are these people?

HITCHCOCK: These people have been let out of prison. They're people from long places away, not here. We want to restore some order here. You can do it. You've got the guns. You've got the machines.

NEELY (voice-over): East Basra, where the Saddam Hussein grain warehouse is about to disappear.

(on camera): So if this in part is Basra today, will it be Baghdad tomorrow? A people fired up, a regime up in flames, a country out of control.

(voice-over): The most senior British officer in Iraqi is not concerned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've just been all over downtown Basra and I actually don't see any looting. One or two isolated bits.

NEELY: Bits everywhere. It's not robbery but revenge at the headquarters of Saddam's Ba'ath Party where the Iraqis look for the records of their relatives the regime has murdered.

A new Iraqi is being born tonight, but here and in Baghdad, it is a difficult birth.

Bill Neely, ITV News, Basra.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Questions then for both General Wesley Clark and for Ken Pollack. General Clark, we'll start with you. In fact, these armies -- the armies that are in there now, at least, are not setup to be police departments. They're not setup to control cities in that way. What has to happen next, and how quickly?

RET. GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think you'll see that as soon as the fighting stops, Aaron, I think you'll see them begin to redeploy. Most of the leaders there do have peacekeeping, peace operations experience.

Maybe not all the troops, but a lot of the tasks are maintaining presence, checkpoints, clearing vehicles, identifying and guarding key terrain key features, like water facilities and so forth.

They'll go out there and they'll do that pretty quickly. The question is, what's the level of resistance they're going to face. Is it just the scattered looters, or is it organized intents to disrupt and embarrass and drive off the American presence and the British presence.

That's what we don't know. But if it's the former, then we'll pretty quickly transition and be able to handle that. At least initially.

BROWN: Pretty quickly meaning days or longer?

CLARK: Days.

BROWN: Days.

CLARK: What we won't have is we don't have courts, we don't have jails, we don't have a penal code. We can't resolve disputes when someone says he's taking his car or took his house two years ago in an illegal action. That stuff builds up over time.

BROWN: Ken, part of the problem here is that this is a country tonight without a political structure at all.

There was the Ba'athist Party and it is no more, so they have to build politics from scratch.

POLLACK: That's absolutely right, Aaron.

It's also why General Clark's point about getting control over the security situation very quickly is so important, because it is important to remember that there are some deep fissures in Iraqi society, fissures which have been exaggerated, but which nonetheless exist.

And you've also got decades, in many cases 80-year-old histories of repression and bad feeling among some of these groups. You could have groups going after local Ba'athists. You could have local Ba'athists banding together to try to resist or protect themselves. You could have different ethnic groups going after each other.

For all of these different reasons, it's very important for the security situation to be put in place quickly. The politics, that's going to have to follow later.

BROWN: And all of this still has to be done somewhat delicately, doesn't it -- Ken.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: No question about it.

The Iraqis are fiercely nationalist and it's got to look like what the United States is doing is there to benefit the Iraqi people, that the United States is not there to try to impose some kind of a new colonial regime on them, because that's the quickest way to build Iraqi animosity to this whole operation.

BROWN: And General Clark, I want to go back to something that happened this afternoon. There was this moment where the young American put the American flag on top of the statue and it's gotten all sorts of play and all sorts of buzz and all sorts of meaning and all of that is, I suppose, understandable.

But there is a different context here, it seems to me, and that's that these guys have been there for 21 days, fighting for their lives.

CLARK: Well, that's exactly right, and they're proud and they're proud of their country. They're proud of the troops they've fought with and this is their team, and this is what they stand for.

I understand that kind of exuberance. But, you know, the other thing that's very interesting about it, Aaron, is it was taken down pretty quickly, and it didn't take a call from the White House or the Department of State to get it down.

It didn't go very far up the chain of command before somebody says that's not the image, that's not the purpose, and we're not an occupying force. We're here to turn Iraq back to the people who live there.

BROWN: But it was an understandable moment, at least as we saw it.

CLARK: It really was.

BROWN: General, thank you. Ken, we'll get back to you.

We started to talk about the complexity of building a democracy where none has existed for a very long time, really very, very long in Iraq, far longer than the 30 years of Saddam Hussein.

We'll take a look at how to go about building democracy, but a short break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Today in a column titled "Hold Your Applause," Tom Friedman of "The New York Times" describes Iraq as being in a pre- political state, with Iraqis thirsty for water first and democracy a ways down the list. For now, the responsibility for shaping Iraq's political future lies in Washington. Democracy appears to be the goal in some way, shape or form, but what shape and which form?

We begin with our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST (voice-over): From it's very beginning, America has seen itself as a shining example for other nations to follow.

The real name of the Statue of Liberty, for example, is Liberty Enlightening the World. President Bush and other administration leaders have talked about this war as a war of liberation, not of conquest, and as a beginning of an effort to extend democracy to the whole region.

But how realistic is the idea of exporting democracy, and would we really find the results all the welcome?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Resisting Japanese are blasted from their cave.

GREENFIELD: We know that democracy is not necessarily limited by region or culture. After World War II, Japan became a free, stable nation within a few years, and so did Germany after the Nazi regime was crushed.

Russia has made major steps toward democracy after centuries of czars and commissars. India is now the biggest democracy in the world and South Korea went from strongman rule to a free society, a point underscored by top Defense Department official Paul Wolfowitz.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY SECY. OF DEFENSE.: The Koreans have demonstrated they can do it. Many people have done it in the latter part of the 20th Century. It's time for the Arabs to do it now.

GREENFIELD: But the news from other regions is gloomier. In many nations, free elections have put leaders in power, Yugoslavia's Milosevic, for example, who have crushed opponents, leading to the phrase "one man, one vote, one time."

Without institutions like an independent judiciary and limits on government power, democracy may not lead to liberty at all.

And consider this: in some Middle Eastern nations, Egypt and Saudi Arabia to name just two, genuinely free elections might very well put the most radical, most militant Islamists into power, making goals such as a Middle East peace all but impossible.

In this case, democracy may be at war with stability.

And unlike Germany or Japan, Iraq's population includes three distinct, often warring, groups: the Sunnis, the Shias, the Kurds. These long-standing battles raise this question: can you have a democracy in a nation where the principle ethnic and cultural groups regard each other as mortal enemies?

We've already seen something of this dilemma in Afghanistan, where outside of the capitol city of Kabul, real power lies not in the hands of a central government at all, but with warlords whose blood feuds have a history stretching back for centuries.

(on camera): As a general principle, almost everyone would embrace democracy as a goal and it is certainly true that many nations once considered unlikely candidates have succeeded.

But as with so much else on the international stage, the devil is in the details.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So that's the groundwork.

We're joined from New York by Noah Feldman. Mr. Feldman is a professor of law at New York University School of Law, once clerk for Supreme Court Justice David Souter. And in Washington, Hisham Melhem, the Washington bureau chief of Beirut's "Al Safir" newspaper.

Good to have you both with us.

Noah, we ought to look at this how? Sort of modestly? Modest democracy?

NOAH FELDMAN, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Absolutely. Modesty and humility will become both us individually in making predictions and the United States in its process.

We need to bring the Iraqi people into this process so that they're the ones who are choosing democracy for themselves, and we need to do everything that we can to help them.

BROWN: They have no -- Hisham, they have no political structure. How do you create out of nothing politics where there are competing parties, there are competing points of view? How does that happen?

HISHAM MELHEM, "AL SAFIR": It's a tremendous challenge. After all, for the last 35 years Saddam and his Ba'athist regime have pulverized Iraqi live. Every facet of Iraqi life has been pulverized and it is no chance -- I mean it is no wonder that we used to call it the only totalitarian regime in the Arab world.

So the challenge is Herculean, to say the least. But I don't believe for a moment that there is something called Islamic exceptionalism in the sense that Muslim societies or Arab societies cannot have democratic structures and principles.

Obviously, we should be very realistic here. We cannot go and fish for Jeffersonian Democrats in a tortured society, but definitely there are reformists there. There are democrats with a small "d" and we should start the basics. One has to come up with certain principles that are universal principles.

No torture whatsoever. No group of people, be it on a religious basis or ethnic basis or gender, to be discriminated against.

Then, from that, after we establish a modicum of security and stability, and basic respect for basic human rights, then you can start building a representative government.

I always like to talk abut representative government, responsible governance. Later on, democracy with all its flourishing values will come, will develop. You cannot have democracy unless you have the right fertile soil.

And the problem is you cannot bring democracy on an American tank. And that's why today I felt tremendous joy. I was watching -- I was waiting for 25 years to see those ugly statues of Saddam fall. But my tremendous joy was tempered by the sad fact that I didn't like to see American tanks in downtown Baghdad, a city that means a lot to me and to my culture.

When you talk about Arab culture, you talk about Damascus, Cairo and Baghdad and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in medieval times and yes the Americans should...

BROWN: I'm sorry. Let me...

MELHEM: ...avoid being an imperial power in the Middle East, and that's my real fear.

BROWN: Got it. Let me go back to Noah for a second.

Ought the United States, the citizens of the United States, be prepared for the possibility that what Iraq will end up with is a government it does not like?

FELDMAN: We definitely need to be prepared for an eventuality like that one, but as Deputy Secretary of Defense Wolfowitz said the other day, a government that's democratic that votes against our interests is still over the long-term in our interests.

Turkey is the perfect example of this. We badly wanted their help in the run up to this Iraq war. We didn't get it, but the reason we didn't get it is that the Turkish people, democratically speaking through their parliament, refused to give it to us. That was bad for our short-term interests, but it was good for our long-term interests, because it showed that democracy is a possibility in the region.

And indeed, the government around Prime Minister Erdogan in Turkey is a government of Islamically-inclined people, really showing that there are Muslims, committed, serious Muslims, who are also committed to true democracy, democracy with equal rights for women and Muslims and for non-Muslims.

BROWN: Hisham, the last word, half a minute, how long is too long, in your view, for the Americans to stay? MELHEM: They shouldn't stay for years. We have to talk about months at the most, and they have to be extremely careful. These are -- these people, although they have been tortured, they have a strong sense of nationalism, of identity and sense of history and who they are, notwithstanding their major differences -- I don't want to belittle those differences. But these people are capable, if they're given the chance, to rebuild that society that Saddam tortured for the last 35 years.

BROWN: Thank you both for joining us. This is a subject we'll be talking a lot about, probably for years to come. We appreciate your time tonight.

We'll take a break, update the day's headlines, and when we come back, some of the still photos of a remarkable day.

The break comes first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There's no doubt we'll see the video of the statue coming down for years to come, and we'll see some still pictures taken today that will become the defining images of this day as well.

We're fortunate tonight to have some of the work of "Time" magazine photographer Bob Nickelsberg who was there today to capture this remarkable piece of history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB NICKELSBERG, "TIME": My name is Bob Nickelsberg. I'm not outside of the Palestinian Hotel with the 3rd Battalion of the Marines.

Well, it's back to "Twilight Zone" for Baghdad, actually. The streets are empty. No lights other than what the generators are producing for the two hotels and I'm about 100 feet from the statue that was pulled down earlier this afternoon.

The crowd started out no more than 20 people, all male, and gradually built up from a sledge hammer. They tried to pull off the brass plaque, and that was met with a lot of cheering, which brought out people from the immediate area, a sense of security that if they can pull off the brass plaque, perhaps they can pull off some tiles, pull out some cinderblocks, and gradually pull it down.

But their initial attempt with a rope was no more strength than a shoelace, really, until the Marines offered their tank.

There haven't been any flags to speak of other than 5 x 7 flags that occasionally went by on some of the armed personnel carriers. They're quite surprised, actually, to see it. We were. That hasn't been really the theme here. It's definitely been force and bullets that is going to take the place over not waving a flag to win the crowd.

The Marines are also aware that this is not just their battle. It's the Iraqi people that have to pick up the tab on this one too, so it worked very well in sequence.

Tank coming up, pulling it down. The head being pulled apart from the body of the statue and dragged through the streets for about 150 feet. There's certainly a sense of relief, but tomorrow is another day and no one knows what will happen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Somewhere in there, we think we saw a cover for "Time" magazine.

Bob Nickelsberg, shooting for "Time" magazine.

This is Baghdad on a new and very different day. What will unfold?

When we come back, we'll show you how three television networks covered the same moment, the falling of the statue.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): ... is left dangling from this (UNINTELLIGIBLE). People now throwing objects at it, throwing rocks and pieces of wood. Throwing dirt up into his face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Does it look like that tow- truck vehicle will try to move back so Saddam is not left in this dangling position, will be taken to the ground?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is moving very slightly, and they're again tightening that -- it's almost as if they will seemingly pull it off the pedestal completely. They're clearing people away and now it's come off completely and falls to ground. More cheers go up.

And people are now on the statue of Saddam dancing up and down. People are rushing to the square to in fact jump on the statue of Saddam.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator) (voice-over): You've just watched the statue of Saddam Hussein fall, but it is still resisting. The statue has not completely fallen. It lays down on the bell, the arm forward, but it has not completely fallen. What's your reaction?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator) (voice-over): Well, this is -- what I am seeing right now is that Saddam Hussein is over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hold on. This is not enough to say Saddam Hussein is over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if you really want to keep your illusion that some hope remains, if it makes you happy. Now, look, that's it. That's it. It's falling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, now completely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator) (voice-over): Let me tell you one thing. You're font, which reads "Fall of Baghdad," it's not the fall of Baghdad. It's the fall of Saddam Hussein. The war. The war is not against Iraq. It is against Saddam Hussein.

Since the beginning, you're equating the regime of Saddam Hussein and cities like Baghdad, which is a magnificent city which has a history beyond Saddam Hussein.

It is -- it's the fall of Saddam Hussein. It is not the fall of Baghdad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator) (voice-over): So the statue falls down despite -- even though it was not -- did not fall from its best, this is being pulled by the U.S. tank. But the legs still hanging to their base. Another symbolic meaning that maybe this regime has not left its hands, is still grabbing in other areas of Iraq. We don't know.

But the square now, Firdos Square, is witnessing this transfer, this change, this historic change, this indication.

And as I said, and finally the body falls, but the foot still is attached to the base, but the people here are expressing their relief, their feelings of joy, as we can see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Pretty straight forward. Three different television networks around the world and how they covered this moment.

Newspapers are having a pretty good time with the headlines tonight. We'll do this a couple of times tonight.

Here's a few of the morning papers that will be landing on your doorstep, depending on where you live. Two ways to tell the story.

We'll start with the New York Times." "U.S. Forces Take Control," this is the headline, "Take Control in Baghdad. Bush Elated. Some Resistance Remains." That's "The New York Times," complete with lots of pictures. That's one way to headline the story.

There is in fact a more direct way, and it comes to us from the "Philadelphia Daily News," the people paper, and here it is: "Up His" is how the "Daily News" in Philadelphia headlines it. So there's a couple of ways to go.

"The State," which is the newspaper in Columbia, South Carolina: "Baghdad Falls," or if you prefer, everybody is using pretty much the same picture or one pretty close to it, depending.

This is the "Albuquerque Journal," Albuquerque, New Mexico: "Saddam Toppled."

Somewhat more muted headline from the "Cincinnati Inquirer": "Saddam Regime Falls But War Not Over Yet. Joy Rules the Streets of Baghdad." But they did, in the "Daily News" -- I'm sorry, in the "Cincinnati Inquirer," find space for at least one other local story.

"USA Today," which will be seen by lots of people who are on the road at their hotels, and I guess in vending machines around the country, pretty simple and straight forward from "USA Today" today. The picture is the picture of the day and perhaps will be the picture of the year, under the headline "Baghdad Falls."

About a minute here. OK.

The "Boston Herald," one of two newspapers in that city. This is a nice picture too. It's a good headline. "Game Over." Game over is the quote from the U.N. ambassador, Mr. Al Douri, that he gave in New York today and the picture there is a little different, because you do see, if you can focus in on that, an Iraqi with a shoe in his hand.

The "Dallas Morning News," a quiet headline, I think, given the day, a quiet newspaper in some respects, I guess. "With Regime Falling, a Momentous Day," the headline in Dallas.

The "Herald Journal," which is Spartanburg, South Carolina: "Baghdad Falls."

I'm glad I got to this next one before we ran out of town. Same headline in the "Chicago Sun Times,": "Baghdad Falls." But the weather, we always look at the weather in the "Sun Times," and the weather tomorrow will be "regime change." I don't know what that is, exactly, in weather terms, but I sure do get it in the rest of the day.

We'll take a break and our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: One more quick newspaper headline, because it fits where we're going pretty well.

The "Detroit Free Press," their headline, "Baghdad Falls," but they also note, if I can tilt this so you can see it, Dearborn, the suburb outside of Detroit, and the celebrations that went on there.

We showed you the pictures of those celebrations. The suburbs of Detroit are home to a large number of Iraqi-Americans.

We're joined now by the spiritual leader of that community, Imam Hesham Al Husainy.

Imam, nice to have you with us. I suppose as days go, it doesn't get much better than this, does it?

IMAM HESHAM AL HUSAINY, KARBALAA ISLAMIC CENTER: Well, actually, thank you for this opportunity to express the Iraqi's feeling, and actually the community here are very excited and happy and they are going through a feeling nobody can explain. It is some feeling only the Iraqis, repressed people being under the regime of Saddam, are feeling it.

It's just like a volcano of feeling coming out, and hope, and looking forward to go back home, to see what's left of our country, to meet our family. It's a momentum.

BROWN: Do you think many Iraqis in the Dearborn area will in fact go home to live, or will they simply go home to see family members?

AL HUSAINY: Well, I would say most of them, if not all, will go home, visit their family, see what they can do, and maybe a lot of them will come back. And we, Iraqi-Americans, have been here for years. We have a lot of experience we would like to transfer to our country to build up our new system and our new future.

BROWN: What do you worry about back there now? They are in a kind of never-never-land, having been under this terrible oppression for so long and on the very edges, the very edges of democracy now.

AL HUSAINY: Well, you're right. We trust our history, we trust our people. Iraqis people know they are good re-builders of their future and their country. We are people of Babylon. We people of Mesopotamia. We are people of Karbalaa and we can rebuild ourselves. So we do have that energy and trust in ourselves and our God that we can do it.

But what is the new government is going to be, well, again, Iraq's people, even though they've been under oppression for 35 years of Saddam, but they do have a hope and a lot of educated people, a lot of people who've been outside of Iraq, going back to pitch in their share.

So I believe in a very short time we are going to form a very democratic government. We'll be a good example for so many countries in the area and around the world. BROWN: Tell me how it came to be that you watched today the statue coming down and that moment. Did someone call you up and say, quick, come to the TV, Imam, you have to see this.

AL HUSAINY: Yes, sir. It is a momentum that I've been waiting for, 23 years living here in America.

A momentum of hope. A momentum that I've been waiting all my life. There was dictator on this earth. The killer, the criminal, Saddam, to be gone and destroyed and become history. It's a momentum that nobody can explain.

We've been waiting for that, sir, 20 million, 22 million Iraqis have been waiting for that.

This man, Saddam, he made our Iraq a big prison called Iraq. Four million Iraqis in exile. Two million Iraqis been killed by Saddam. So what else. And we understand the people who in sympathy with our country, that's the truth, so are we. And we didn't want the war in the beginning, but what can you do with this kind of criminal? He didn't understand nothing except the logic of power and force and bloodshed.

BROWN: Well, sir, you've waited a long time to enjoy this day. Enjoy every bit of it. It's nice to have you with us.

AL HUSAINY: Thank you. God bless you and we thank everybody who helped us to reach this victory and liberation. God bless you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very, very much.

We'll talk with General Wesley Clark. Take a break first.

Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Back with General Wesley Clark for a couple of minutes here.

General, there -- a week ago, I think we talked a lot about how the endgame might play out, this notion of a long, dragged out urban warfare, surrounding the city, probing the city. At some point, the Pentagon or General Franks, somebody made a decision to push harder, more quickly, don't you think?

CLARK: I do. I think what -- I think, as we said at the time, it was opportunistic. When the opening presented itself, they moved in. When there was no resistance, they moved. When that first column went in there on Saturday, as I recall the day, and didn't encounter big heavy obstacles in the streets and they weren't blocked by huge petroleum fires and so forth, they just roared in and roared out.

It was clear that if there was a prepared defense there, it wasn't very well prepared. BROWN: Talk about how, then, that moment got back to Qatar. This group goes in, they go in with armor. They find there's nothing there or not much there. What happens, and how does it get back to General Franks?

CLARK: Well, he gets the reports from the battlefield. He probably gets a call from Lieutenant General Dave McKiernan, who's the commander of the ground forces there, with his forward command post, who's gotten the word from Lieutenant General Scott Wallace (ph), the 5th Corp. commander. And it bounces right up.

Say, hey, boss, we just got into -- we just busted through. There's nothing there, you know. It was just like the overhead reconnaissance showed. No big barricades, barely moderate resistance. We're going to do it again.

BROWN: And then...

CLARK: And it's the initiative at the bottom. You put the mission in the hearts of the troops, in the minds of the leaders, and then you turn them loose, with a few control measures, and they, with their skills and their intuition, find their way through to the objective.

BROWN: You said a number of times to us that wars are won and battles are won at the soldier level, not the general level.

CLARK: That's exactly right, because ultimately, what it comes down to is the people in the tanks and the aircraft, who are actually putting steel on target and looking the enemy in the eye. That's where the battle gets decided.

Everything else is like the delivery system. It's like the third stage of the missile. It launches the warhead to the target, but the warhead is the men and women who are actually doing the fighting. If they can't come to grips with the enemy and defeat him in close battle, then the warhead would be a dud. And the Iraqi close battle in this case proved to be a lot of duds.

BROWN: Is there a moment like today for you in the Kosovo battle?

CLARK: Actually, there were a lot of moments like this, but we didn't experience them, Javier Solana and I, until the 24th of June, about 2 weeks, 2-1/2 weeks after the war, we made our first trip into the Kosovo capitol of Pristina, and we were absolutely mobbed on the streets by all these men, kissing us and hugging us and expressing their admiration.

We'd gone in partially -- I'd went a week before with Defense Secretary William Cohen, and I think he was surprised at the warmth of the reception in one of the cities that we visited. And then when Secretary-General Solana and I hit the capitol, it was overwhelming.

BROWN: There's going to be a moment -- I don't know -- we don't know when, but we presume it's going to happen, when General Franks, Tommy Franks, is going to ride into Baghdad. Talk about a Kodak moment that will be for the general and for the world to see.

CLARK: It will be a great moment, and I hope that all Americans will be there to see that.

BROWN: Well, I hope we're there to see it.

Thank you, general, thank you very much.

We'll take a break. We'll update today's headlines. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Ahead>


Aired April 9, 2003 - 23:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN HOST: In the wars of old, only soldiers could know what it was like to make the final move into the capital city for their final battles. That is not true anymore. But then, not much about the reporting of this war was like any other.
Thanks to astonishing technology, journalist have been able to go along for the ride, including the ride today into Baghdad.

Here's a report from John Irvine of British ITN.

(BEGIN VIDEO TAPE)

JOHN IRVINE, ITN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To venture out was a calculated risk, but an irresistible one. We'd heard no gunfire and there were enough Iraqi cars on the road to give us confidence.

One of the first places we reached was an office used by Saddam Hussein's secret police. Here his numerous portraits were going up in flames. At last, ordinary Iraqis were showing their true feelings towards their leader.

When people saw our camera, they couldn't hide their delight at the turn of events.

Further on, we spoke to some civilians who told me how they felt.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam go.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Saddam go. I am happy. I am happy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Feeling free. Freedom. Freedom.

IRVINE: Then all of the sudden, the United States Marines showed up.

(on camera): This is one of those extraordinary moments, something I never really thought I would see on the streets of the Iraqi capitol.

(voice-over): The Americans gestured for us to come and meet them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How you doing?

IRVINE (on camera): My name's John Irvine, from ITN.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) how you doing? Nice to meet you.

IRVINE: Sergeant?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes sir.

IRVINE: Welcome to Baghdad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.

IRVINE: How does it feel to be here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It feels pretty good. I mean, nice to, you know, represent the Marine Corp. here.

IRVINE (voice-over): The Marines were destroying Iraqi weaponry they'd found in the back of a lorry.

The soldiers appeared relaxed. Some were clearly exhausted, but others were keen to talk about their experiences.

(on camera): What sort of response have you had from ordinary civilians you've come across?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually, the civilians have been very cooperative. They're pretty cheerful that we're here and we haven't had any conflicts with them whatsoever.

IRVINE (voice-over): Several Marines were guarding the hotel that had been the base for the U.N. weapons inspectors in Baghdad. Looters had been here and the Americans rescued U.N. cars before they were driven away.

At one point, the soldiers thought they were coming under fire.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Snipers got eyes on, sir. They're looking right now.

IRVINE: The snipers with eyes on were too Marine sharp shooters on the hotel roof, but they weren't needed. Eventually the Marine commander decided that the Iraqi gunfire was probably more celebratory than aggressive.

Just a few hours later, the U.S. Cavalry rode straight into the city center unopposed.

A war of three weeks has brought an end to decades of Iraqi misery.

John Irvine, ITV News, in liberated Baghdad.

(END VIDEO TAPE)

BROWN: Liberated Baghdad. The Pentagon briefing today ran its normal length of time, but as usual the Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld found a way to sum things up in a single sentence, in this case 14 seconds long.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, U.S. SECY. OF DEFENSE: Saddam Hussein is now taking his rightful place alongside Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Ceausescu in the pantheon of failed brutal dictators, and the Iraqi people are well on their way to freedom.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: If we stole the best sound byte, we didn't steal all the substance from the Pentagon briefing today.

We're joined by our senior Pentagon correspondent Jamie McIntyre tonight. Jamie, good evening.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.

Well, you know they always talk about the tipping point here at the Pentagon, and they also always say they're cautiously optimistic. And if there was a tipping point in this room today, it was tipping slightly less on the caution and a little more toward the optimistic.

Nevertheless, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld warned that there could be dangerous days ahead.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RUMSFELD: Good afternoon.

MCINTYRE (voice-over): For Donald Rumsfeld, April 9 was V-Day.

RUMSFELD: This is a good day for the Iraqi people.

MCINTYRE: Too soon to declare victory, perhaps, but not too soon to feel vindicated for the much second guessed war strategy that now appears to be working as brilliantly as the Pentagon claimed it would.

Rumsfeld credits his commanders and especially their troops.

RUMSFELD: They drove through the south up, braving dust storms and death squads, to reach Baghdad in record time. They secured Iraq's southern oilfields for the Iraqi people, took out terrorist camps in the north and the south, secured large sections of western Iraq, preventing the regime from attacking its neighbors with SCUD missiles. They've liberated cities and towns and are now in the Iraqi capitol, removing the regime from its seat of power and center of gravity.

MCINTYRE: By comparison, the 1991 Persian Gulf War to liberate Kuwait required more than 500,000 troops, took six weeks, and resulted in 300 U.S. deaths. So far, the war to liberate Iraq has involved roughly 300,000 U.S. and British troops, lasted three weeks, with just over 130 coalition deaths.

DICK CHENEY, U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: Bottom line: with less than half of the ground forces and 2/3 of the air assets used 12 years ago in Desert Storm, Secretary Rumsfeld and General Franks have achieved a far more difficult objective.

MCINTYRE: Military analysts point out a number of revolutionary aspects of the campaign, including the ability of a B-1 heavy bomber to strike precisely Saddam Hussein's last known location within 45 minutes of the U.S. receiving intelligence.

And perhaps even more impressive, the ability of U.S. ground forces to maintain their march on Baghdad with only short pauses.

When the statue of Saddam Hussein came down in Baghdad, the dual symbolism wasn't lost on the Pentagon. Not only did it show the Iraqi people's desire to topple Saddam, but it showed they couldn't do it without the muscle of the U.S. military.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

Now the Pentagon continues to warn against premature celebrations and that hard battles may remain ahead, but in executing a war plan that planned for the worst but yet allowed for the best, the Pentagon appears to have capitalized on that ancient axiom "fortune `favors the bold" -- Aaron.

BROWN: For all their public caution, honestly, were there high- fives in the hallways of the Pentagon today?

MCINTYRE: Well, there was a lot of -- there was a lot of grinning, a lot of very positive feeling, but also the recognition that there's always a tendency to start to too quickly reach the conclusion that everything is fine.

They know from experience that after this euphoria dies down can be some really hard work of finishing off the task, and then the tough task of peacekeeping and, in this case, nation-building.

BROWN: They don't have a lot of troops in the north, in these critical centers in the north where there are still substantial numbers of Iraqi soldiers. So what's the plan on getting them there?

MCINTYRE: Well, of course, the Army's 4th Infantry Division will be entering Iraq from Kuwait sometime this week. That's a full division of troops. They'll be rushing up toward the north.

The United States is also continuing to fly in more troops and equipment in the north, directly from Germany and other places in Europe.

But you're right, they don't have the kind of forces in the north there that they had in the south. However, the way the country is going, they may be able to, again, leverage the minimum amount of troops with the maximum amount of effect. A lot of it depends on what happens around Tikrit, which is seen as perhaps a final stronghold, and they are continuing to attack Tikrit from the air and engage in some places on the ground even though we can't see it because we don't have cameras there.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. Jamie McIntyre, our senior Pentagon correspondent.

And in fact just a few moments ago we showed you airplanes taking off, or landing, on the USS Constellation, proving the point that air operations do continue.

Here in our coverage last night we showcased some especially heavy resistance encountered by members of the 101st Airborne near Hillah, which is essentially ancient Babylon.

Today the Screaming Eagles entered the town and the pictures could not be more different.

CNN's Ryan Chilcote was with them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Soldiers from the 101st Airborne's 3rd Brigade came into downtown Hillah ready for a fight.

Seizing a courthouse with their guns blazing, they went from room to room in search of Iraqi fighters, but nothing more than a portrait of Saddam Hussein hanging impudently on the wall to stop them.

Instead of armed resistance, the Rakkasans had to fight their way through streets of cheering crowds and public displays of affection.

(on camera): What is amazing to see is exactly how quickly the resistance to U.S. forces in Hillah melted away. Just yesterday, the Rakkasans were engaged in a major firefight here.

(voice-over): Today, the Screaming Eagles began a war for hearts and minds, giving fuel to a water treatment plant and a power station of sorts.

Still, many Iraqis said it will take time for the Americans to win their trust, one man telling the two-start....

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't want to be the first or the last point, the critical point, you make friendship with him, or reconcile with him or anything like that. Any honest Iraqi person wish to see a good man controlling Iraq, not to (UNINTELLIGIBLE), won by another bad one.

CHILCOTE: For now, there is a vacuum here and Hillah, home to the old Babylon, and this palace, which many here say Saddam was building for himself, part of his campaign to build a new Babylon, are under American control.

The only question now is, what to do next.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne, in Hillah, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, that is a question being asked all over the country. Here's what one resident of Basra said today about the henchmen of the Saddam Hussein regime: "We're glad they are gone, but right now we need safety more than anything."

Which is to say that the fighting may be largely over in places like Basra, but the work of establishing order has just begun.

British reporter Bill Neely filed this.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BILL NEELY, ITV CORRESPONDENT: The news from Baghdad reached Basra fast. Saddam is finished they cried, apart from one last stand.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kill in Iraq.

NEELY (on camera): He will die in Iraq?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He will die here now. Saddam is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in Iraq, in Baghdad. No go.

NEELY (voice-over): Iraqis here are astonished even by news from their own city. There is now no law, little order and lots of looting here. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) huge warehouses stripped today of soap, sugar, flour, anything these people could haul out.

(on camera): If British troops are needed anywhere, they're needed here, but they're nowhere to be seen. They're judgment is, they're not a police force. But there's a fine line between that judgment and complete anarchy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You need bullets and supplies to (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

NEELY (voice-over): Across the city in the banking district there were British troops and there was mayhem.

The man is terrified. He's part of a crowd that attacked a bank with rocket-propelled grenades. The looters carrying one of their own who was killed.

The crowd is small, the troops are nervous. This is a city teetering on the edge of anarchy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is from Iraqi people. Why broken these? Why broken?

NEELY: The troops check the vault behind the safe door for looters or loot, but there's nothing. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In their attempt to gain entry into the vault, they were firing grenades into it. They actually incinerated all of the money they were after in the first place.

NEELY (on camera): There's no Iraqi police, no Iraqi army. Do you feel you're in control?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we are. We're fully in control at the moment of the city.

NEELY (voice-over): But they're not sure where the thieves will strike next.

MARGARET HITCHCOCK, AL RAHMAN (ph) RESIDENT: You've got the ammunition. You've got the position to do something.

NEELY: Next (UNINTELLIGIBLE) residential suburbs, and Margaret Hitchcock, originally from Plymouth, is furious.

HITCHCOCK: They're frightened from the people breaking into their houses, breaking into their houses, hurting them, causing trouble. I mean...

NEELY (on camera): Who are these people?

HITCHCOCK: These people have been let out of prison. They're people from long places away, not here. We want to restore some order here. You can do it. You've got the guns. You've got the machines.

NEELY (voice-over): East Basra, where the Saddam Hussein grain warehouse is about to disappear.

(on camera): So if this in part is Basra today, will it be Baghdad tomorrow? A people fired up, a regime up in flames, a country out of control.

(voice-over): The most senior British officer in Iraqi is not concerned.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I've just been all over downtown Basra and I actually don't see any looting. One or two isolated bits.

NEELY: Bits everywhere. It's not robbery but revenge at the headquarters of Saddam's Ba'ath Party where the Iraqis look for the records of their relatives the regime has murdered.

A new Iraqi is being born tonight, but here and in Baghdad, it is a difficult birth.

Bill Neely, ITV News, Basra.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Questions then for both General Wesley Clark and for Ken Pollack. General Clark, we'll start with you. In fact, these armies -- the armies that are in there now, at least, are not setup to be police departments. They're not setup to control cities in that way. What has to happen next, and how quickly?

RET. GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think you'll see that as soon as the fighting stops, Aaron, I think you'll see them begin to redeploy. Most of the leaders there do have peacekeeping, peace operations experience.

Maybe not all the troops, but a lot of the tasks are maintaining presence, checkpoints, clearing vehicles, identifying and guarding key terrain key features, like water facilities and so forth.

They'll go out there and they'll do that pretty quickly. The question is, what's the level of resistance they're going to face. Is it just the scattered looters, or is it organized intents to disrupt and embarrass and drive off the American presence and the British presence.

That's what we don't know. But if it's the former, then we'll pretty quickly transition and be able to handle that. At least initially.

BROWN: Pretty quickly meaning days or longer?

CLARK: Days.

BROWN: Days.

CLARK: What we won't have is we don't have courts, we don't have jails, we don't have a penal code. We can't resolve disputes when someone says he's taking his car or took his house two years ago in an illegal action. That stuff builds up over time.

BROWN: Ken, part of the problem here is that this is a country tonight without a political structure at all.

There was the Ba'athist Party and it is no more, so they have to build politics from scratch.

POLLACK: That's absolutely right, Aaron.

It's also why General Clark's point about getting control over the security situation very quickly is so important, because it is important to remember that there are some deep fissures in Iraqi society, fissures which have been exaggerated, but which nonetheless exist.

And you've also got decades, in many cases 80-year-old histories of repression and bad feeling among some of these groups. You could have groups going after local Ba'athists. You could have local Ba'athists banding together to try to resist or protect themselves. You could have different ethnic groups going after each other.

For all of these different reasons, it's very important for the security situation to be put in place quickly. The politics, that's going to have to follow later.

BROWN: And all of this still has to be done somewhat delicately, doesn't it -- Ken.

KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: No question about it.

The Iraqis are fiercely nationalist and it's got to look like what the United States is doing is there to benefit the Iraqi people, that the United States is not there to try to impose some kind of a new colonial regime on them, because that's the quickest way to build Iraqi animosity to this whole operation.

BROWN: And General Clark, I want to go back to something that happened this afternoon. There was this moment where the young American put the American flag on top of the statue and it's gotten all sorts of play and all sorts of buzz and all sorts of meaning and all of that is, I suppose, understandable.

But there is a different context here, it seems to me, and that's that these guys have been there for 21 days, fighting for their lives.

CLARK: Well, that's exactly right, and they're proud and they're proud of their country. They're proud of the troops they've fought with and this is their team, and this is what they stand for.

I understand that kind of exuberance. But, you know, the other thing that's very interesting about it, Aaron, is it was taken down pretty quickly, and it didn't take a call from the White House or the Department of State to get it down.

It didn't go very far up the chain of command before somebody says that's not the image, that's not the purpose, and we're not an occupying force. We're here to turn Iraq back to the people who live there.

BROWN: But it was an understandable moment, at least as we saw it.

CLARK: It really was.

BROWN: General, thank you. Ken, we'll get back to you.

We started to talk about the complexity of building a democracy where none has existed for a very long time, really very, very long in Iraq, far longer than the 30 years of Saddam Hussein.

We'll take a look at how to go about building democracy, but a short break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Today in a column titled "Hold Your Applause," Tom Friedman of "The New York Times" describes Iraq as being in a pre- political state, with Iraqis thirsty for water first and democracy a ways down the list. For now, the responsibility for shaping Iraq's political future lies in Washington. Democracy appears to be the goal in some way, shape or form, but what shape and which form?

We begin with our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST (voice-over): From it's very beginning, America has seen itself as a shining example for other nations to follow.

The real name of the Statue of Liberty, for example, is Liberty Enlightening the World. President Bush and other administration leaders have talked about this war as a war of liberation, not of conquest, and as a beginning of an effort to extend democracy to the whole region.

But how realistic is the idea of exporting democracy, and would we really find the results all the welcome?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Resisting Japanese are blasted from their cave.

GREENFIELD: We know that democracy is not necessarily limited by region or culture. After World War II, Japan became a free, stable nation within a few years, and so did Germany after the Nazi regime was crushed.

Russia has made major steps toward democracy after centuries of czars and commissars. India is now the biggest democracy in the world and South Korea went from strongman rule to a free society, a point underscored by top Defense Department official Paul Wolfowitz.

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY SECY. OF DEFENSE.: The Koreans have demonstrated they can do it. Many people have done it in the latter part of the 20th Century. It's time for the Arabs to do it now.

GREENFIELD: But the news from other regions is gloomier. In many nations, free elections have put leaders in power, Yugoslavia's Milosevic, for example, who have crushed opponents, leading to the phrase "one man, one vote, one time."

Without institutions like an independent judiciary and limits on government power, democracy may not lead to liberty at all.

And consider this: in some Middle Eastern nations, Egypt and Saudi Arabia to name just two, genuinely free elections might very well put the most radical, most militant Islamists into power, making goals such as a Middle East peace all but impossible.

In this case, democracy may be at war with stability.

And unlike Germany or Japan, Iraq's population includes three distinct, often warring, groups: the Sunnis, the Shias, the Kurds. These long-standing battles raise this question: can you have a democracy in a nation where the principle ethnic and cultural groups regard each other as mortal enemies?

We've already seen something of this dilemma in Afghanistan, where outside of the capitol city of Kabul, real power lies not in the hands of a central government at all, but with warlords whose blood feuds have a history stretching back for centuries.

(on camera): As a general principle, almost everyone would embrace democracy as a goal and it is certainly true that many nations once considered unlikely candidates have succeeded.

But as with so much else on the international stage, the devil is in the details.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So that's the groundwork.

We're joined from New York by Noah Feldman. Mr. Feldman is a professor of law at New York University School of Law, once clerk for Supreme Court Justice David Souter. And in Washington, Hisham Melhem, the Washington bureau chief of Beirut's "Al Safir" newspaper.

Good to have you both with us.

Noah, we ought to look at this how? Sort of modestly? Modest democracy?

NOAH FELDMAN, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY: Absolutely. Modesty and humility will become both us individually in making predictions and the United States in its process.

We need to bring the Iraqi people into this process so that they're the ones who are choosing democracy for themselves, and we need to do everything that we can to help them.

BROWN: They have no -- Hisham, they have no political structure. How do you create out of nothing politics where there are competing parties, there are competing points of view? How does that happen?

HISHAM MELHEM, "AL SAFIR": It's a tremendous challenge. After all, for the last 35 years Saddam and his Ba'athist regime have pulverized Iraqi live. Every facet of Iraqi life has been pulverized and it is no chance -- I mean it is no wonder that we used to call it the only totalitarian regime in the Arab world.

So the challenge is Herculean, to say the least. But I don't believe for a moment that there is something called Islamic exceptionalism in the sense that Muslim societies or Arab societies cannot have democratic structures and principles.

Obviously, we should be very realistic here. We cannot go and fish for Jeffersonian Democrats in a tortured society, but definitely there are reformists there. There are democrats with a small "d" and we should start the basics. One has to come up with certain principles that are universal principles.

No torture whatsoever. No group of people, be it on a religious basis or ethnic basis or gender, to be discriminated against.

Then, from that, after we establish a modicum of security and stability, and basic respect for basic human rights, then you can start building a representative government.

I always like to talk abut representative government, responsible governance. Later on, democracy with all its flourishing values will come, will develop. You cannot have democracy unless you have the right fertile soil.

And the problem is you cannot bring democracy on an American tank. And that's why today I felt tremendous joy. I was watching -- I was waiting for 25 years to see those ugly statues of Saddam fall. But my tremendous joy was tempered by the sad fact that I didn't like to see American tanks in downtown Baghdad, a city that means a lot to me and to my culture.

When you talk about Arab culture, you talk about Damascus, Cairo and Baghdad and (UNINTELLIGIBLE) in medieval times and yes the Americans should...

BROWN: I'm sorry. Let me...

MELHEM: ...avoid being an imperial power in the Middle East, and that's my real fear.

BROWN: Got it. Let me go back to Noah for a second.

Ought the United States, the citizens of the United States, be prepared for the possibility that what Iraq will end up with is a government it does not like?

FELDMAN: We definitely need to be prepared for an eventuality like that one, but as Deputy Secretary of Defense Wolfowitz said the other day, a government that's democratic that votes against our interests is still over the long-term in our interests.

Turkey is the perfect example of this. We badly wanted their help in the run up to this Iraq war. We didn't get it, but the reason we didn't get it is that the Turkish people, democratically speaking through their parliament, refused to give it to us. That was bad for our short-term interests, but it was good for our long-term interests, because it showed that democracy is a possibility in the region.

And indeed, the government around Prime Minister Erdogan in Turkey is a government of Islamically-inclined people, really showing that there are Muslims, committed, serious Muslims, who are also committed to true democracy, democracy with equal rights for women and Muslims and for non-Muslims.

BROWN: Hisham, the last word, half a minute, how long is too long, in your view, for the Americans to stay? MELHEM: They shouldn't stay for years. We have to talk about months at the most, and they have to be extremely careful. These are -- these people, although they have been tortured, they have a strong sense of nationalism, of identity and sense of history and who they are, notwithstanding their major differences -- I don't want to belittle those differences. But these people are capable, if they're given the chance, to rebuild that society that Saddam tortured for the last 35 years.

BROWN: Thank you both for joining us. This is a subject we'll be talking a lot about, probably for years to come. We appreciate your time tonight.

We'll take a break, update the day's headlines, and when we come back, some of the still photos of a remarkable day.

The break comes first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There's no doubt we'll see the video of the statue coming down for years to come, and we'll see some still pictures taken today that will become the defining images of this day as well.

We're fortunate tonight to have some of the work of "Time" magazine photographer Bob Nickelsberg who was there today to capture this remarkable piece of history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOB NICKELSBERG, "TIME": My name is Bob Nickelsberg. I'm not outside of the Palestinian Hotel with the 3rd Battalion of the Marines.

Well, it's back to "Twilight Zone" for Baghdad, actually. The streets are empty. No lights other than what the generators are producing for the two hotels and I'm about 100 feet from the statue that was pulled down earlier this afternoon.

The crowd started out no more than 20 people, all male, and gradually built up from a sledge hammer. They tried to pull off the brass plaque, and that was met with a lot of cheering, which brought out people from the immediate area, a sense of security that if they can pull off the brass plaque, perhaps they can pull off some tiles, pull out some cinderblocks, and gradually pull it down.

But their initial attempt with a rope was no more strength than a shoelace, really, until the Marines offered their tank.

There haven't been any flags to speak of other than 5 x 7 flags that occasionally went by on some of the armed personnel carriers. They're quite surprised, actually, to see it. We were. That hasn't been really the theme here. It's definitely been force and bullets that is going to take the place over not waving a flag to win the crowd.

The Marines are also aware that this is not just their battle. It's the Iraqi people that have to pick up the tab on this one too, so it worked very well in sequence.

Tank coming up, pulling it down. The head being pulled apart from the body of the statue and dragged through the streets for about 150 feet. There's certainly a sense of relief, but tomorrow is another day and no one knows what will happen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Somewhere in there, we think we saw a cover for "Time" magazine.

Bob Nickelsberg, shooting for "Time" magazine.

This is Baghdad on a new and very different day. What will unfold?

When we come back, we'll show you how three television networks covered the same moment, the falling of the statue.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): ... is left dangling from this (UNINTELLIGIBLE). People now throwing objects at it, throwing rocks and pieces of wood. Throwing dirt up into his face.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Does it look like that tow- truck vehicle will try to move back so Saddam is not left in this dangling position, will be taken to the ground?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is moving very slightly, and they're again tightening that -- it's almost as if they will seemingly pull it off the pedestal completely. They're clearing people away and now it's come off completely and falls to ground. More cheers go up.

And people are now on the statue of Saddam dancing up and down. People are rushing to the square to in fact jump on the statue of Saddam.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator) (voice-over): You've just watched the statue of Saddam Hussein fall, but it is still resisting. The statue has not completely fallen. It lays down on the bell, the arm forward, but it has not completely fallen. What's your reaction?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator) (voice-over): Well, this is -- what I am seeing right now is that Saddam Hussein is over.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hold on. This is not enough to say Saddam Hussein is over.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, if you really want to keep your illusion that some hope remains, if it makes you happy. Now, look, that's it. That's it. It's falling.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, now completely.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator) (voice-over): Let me tell you one thing. You're font, which reads "Fall of Baghdad," it's not the fall of Baghdad. It's the fall of Saddam Hussein. The war. The war is not against Iraq. It is against Saddam Hussein.

Since the beginning, you're equating the regime of Saddam Hussein and cities like Baghdad, which is a magnificent city which has a history beyond Saddam Hussein.

It is -- it's the fall of Saddam Hussein. It is not the fall of Baghdad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator) (voice-over): So the statue falls down despite -- even though it was not -- did not fall from its best, this is being pulled by the U.S. tank. But the legs still hanging to their base. Another symbolic meaning that maybe this regime has not left its hands, is still grabbing in other areas of Iraq. We don't know.

But the square now, Firdos Square, is witnessing this transfer, this change, this historic change, this indication.

And as I said, and finally the body falls, but the foot still is attached to the base, but the people here are expressing their relief, their feelings of joy, as we can see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Pretty straight forward. Three different television networks around the world and how they covered this moment.

Newspapers are having a pretty good time with the headlines tonight. We'll do this a couple of times tonight.

Here's a few of the morning papers that will be landing on your doorstep, depending on where you live. Two ways to tell the story.

We'll start with the New York Times." "U.S. Forces Take Control," this is the headline, "Take Control in Baghdad. Bush Elated. Some Resistance Remains." That's "The New York Times," complete with lots of pictures. That's one way to headline the story.

There is in fact a more direct way, and it comes to us from the "Philadelphia Daily News," the people paper, and here it is: "Up His" is how the "Daily News" in Philadelphia headlines it. So there's a couple of ways to go.

"The State," which is the newspaper in Columbia, South Carolina: "Baghdad Falls," or if you prefer, everybody is using pretty much the same picture or one pretty close to it, depending.

This is the "Albuquerque Journal," Albuquerque, New Mexico: "Saddam Toppled."

Somewhat more muted headline from the "Cincinnati Inquirer": "Saddam Regime Falls But War Not Over Yet. Joy Rules the Streets of Baghdad." But they did, in the "Daily News" -- I'm sorry, in the "Cincinnati Inquirer," find space for at least one other local story.

"USA Today," which will be seen by lots of people who are on the road at their hotels, and I guess in vending machines around the country, pretty simple and straight forward from "USA Today" today. The picture is the picture of the day and perhaps will be the picture of the year, under the headline "Baghdad Falls."

About a minute here. OK.

The "Boston Herald," one of two newspapers in that city. This is a nice picture too. It's a good headline. "Game Over." Game over is the quote from the U.N. ambassador, Mr. Al Douri, that he gave in New York today and the picture there is a little different, because you do see, if you can focus in on that, an Iraqi with a shoe in his hand.

The "Dallas Morning News," a quiet headline, I think, given the day, a quiet newspaper in some respects, I guess. "With Regime Falling, a Momentous Day," the headline in Dallas.

The "Herald Journal," which is Spartanburg, South Carolina: "Baghdad Falls."

I'm glad I got to this next one before we ran out of town. Same headline in the "Chicago Sun Times,": "Baghdad Falls." But the weather, we always look at the weather in the "Sun Times," and the weather tomorrow will be "regime change." I don't know what that is, exactly, in weather terms, but I sure do get it in the rest of the day.

We'll take a break and our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: One more quick newspaper headline, because it fits where we're going pretty well.

The "Detroit Free Press," their headline, "Baghdad Falls," but they also note, if I can tilt this so you can see it, Dearborn, the suburb outside of Detroit, and the celebrations that went on there.

We showed you the pictures of those celebrations. The suburbs of Detroit are home to a large number of Iraqi-Americans.

We're joined now by the spiritual leader of that community, Imam Hesham Al Husainy.

Imam, nice to have you with us. I suppose as days go, it doesn't get much better than this, does it?

IMAM HESHAM AL HUSAINY, KARBALAA ISLAMIC CENTER: Well, actually, thank you for this opportunity to express the Iraqi's feeling, and actually the community here are very excited and happy and they are going through a feeling nobody can explain. It is some feeling only the Iraqis, repressed people being under the regime of Saddam, are feeling it.

It's just like a volcano of feeling coming out, and hope, and looking forward to go back home, to see what's left of our country, to meet our family. It's a momentum.

BROWN: Do you think many Iraqis in the Dearborn area will in fact go home to live, or will they simply go home to see family members?

AL HUSAINY: Well, I would say most of them, if not all, will go home, visit their family, see what they can do, and maybe a lot of them will come back. And we, Iraqi-Americans, have been here for years. We have a lot of experience we would like to transfer to our country to build up our new system and our new future.

BROWN: What do you worry about back there now? They are in a kind of never-never-land, having been under this terrible oppression for so long and on the very edges, the very edges of democracy now.

AL HUSAINY: Well, you're right. We trust our history, we trust our people. Iraqis people know they are good re-builders of their future and their country. We are people of Babylon. We people of Mesopotamia. We are people of Karbalaa and we can rebuild ourselves. So we do have that energy and trust in ourselves and our God that we can do it.

But what is the new government is going to be, well, again, Iraq's people, even though they've been under oppression for 35 years of Saddam, but they do have a hope and a lot of educated people, a lot of people who've been outside of Iraq, going back to pitch in their share.

So I believe in a very short time we are going to form a very democratic government. We'll be a good example for so many countries in the area and around the world. BROWN: Tell me how it came to be that you watched today the statue coming down and that moment. Did someone call you up and say, quick, come to the TV, Imam, you have to see this.

AL HUSAINY: Yes, sir. It is a momentum that I've been waiting for, 23 years living here in America.

A momentum of hope. A momentum that I've been waiting all my life. There was dictator on this earth. The killer, the criminal, Saddam, to be gone and destroyed and become history. It's a momentum that nobody can explain.

We've been waiting for that, sir, 20 million, 22 million Iraqis have been waiting for that.

This man, Saddam, he made our Iraq a big prison called Iraq. Four million Iraqis in exile. Two million Iraqis been killed by Saddam. So what else. And we understand the people who in sympathy with our country, that's the truth, so are we. And we didn't want the war in the beginning, but what can you do with this kind of criminal? He didn't understand nothing except the logic of power and force and bloodshed.

BROWN: Well, sir, you've waited a long time to enjoy this day. Enjoy every bit of it. It's nice to have you with us.

AL HUSAINY: Thank you. God bless you and we thank everybody who helped us to reach this victory and liberation. God bless you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very, very much.

We'll talk with General Wesley Clark. Take a break first.

Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Back with General Wesley Clark for a couple of minutes here.

General, there -- a week ago, I think we talked a lot about how the endgame might play out, this notion of a long, dragged out urban warfare, surrounding the city, probing the city. At some point, the Pentagon or General Franks, somebody made a decision to push harder, more quickly, don't you think?

CLARK: I do. I think what -- I think, as we said at the time, it was opportunistic. When the opening presented itself, they moved in. When there was no resistance, they moved. When that first column went in there on Saturday, as I recall the day, and didn't encounter big heavy obstacles in the streets and they weren't blocked by huge petroleum fires and so forth, they just roared in and roared out.

It was clear that if there was a prepared defense there, it wasn't very well prepared. BROWN: Talk about how, then, that moment got back to Qatar. This group goes in, they go in with armor. They find there's nothing there or not much there. What happens, and how does it get back to General Franks?

CLARK: Well, he gets the reports from the battlefield. He probably gets a call from Lieutenant General Dave McKiernan, who's the commander of the ground forces there, with his forward command post, who's gotten the word from Lieutenant General Scott Wallace (ph), the 5th Corp. commander. And it bounces right up.

Say, hey, boss, we just got into -- we just busted through. There's nothing there, you know. It was just like the overhead reconnaissance showed. No big barricades, barely moderate resistance. We're going to do it again.

BROWN: And then...

CLARK: And it's the initiative at the bottom. You put the mission in the hearts of the troops, in the minds of the leaders, and then you turn them loose, with a few control measures, and they, with their skills and their intuition, find their way through to the objective.

BROWN: You said a number of times to us that wars are won and battles are won at the soldier level, not the general level.

CLARK: That's exactly right, because ultimately, what it comes down to is the people in the tanks and the aircraft, who are actually putting steel on target and looking the enemy in the eye. That's where the battle gets decided.

Everything else is like the delivery system. It's like the third stage of the missile. It launches the warhead to the target, but the warhead is the men and women who are actually doing the fighting. If they can't come to grips with the enemy and defeat him in close battle, then the warhead would be a dud. And the Iraqi close battle in this case proved to be a lot of duds.

BROWN: Is there a moment like today for you in the Kosovo battle?

CLARK: Actually, there were a lot of moments like this, but we didn't experience them, Javier Solana and I, until the 24th of June, about 2 weeks, 2-1/2 weeks after the war, we made our first trip into the Kosovo capitol of Pristina, and we were absolutely mobbed on the streets by all these men, kissing us and hugging us and expressing their admiration.

We'd gone in partially -- I'd went a week before with Defense Secretary William Cohen, and I think he was surprised at the warmth of the reception in one of the cities that we visited. And then when Secretary-General Solana and I hit the capitol, it was overwhelming.

BROWN: There's going to be a moment -- I don't know -- we don't know when, but we presume it's going to happen, when General Franks, Tommy Franks, is going to ride into Baghdad. Talk about a Kodak moment that will be for the general and for the world to see.

CLARK: It will be a great moment, and I hope that all Americans will be there to see that.

BROWN: Well, I hope we're there to see it.

Thank you, general, thank you very much.

We'll take a break. We'll update today's headlines. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Ahead>