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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
War in Iraq
Aired April 12, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. A lot to get to. Some chilling discoveries today. Also, the killing of a Marine in Baghdad. Also, a homecoming and a look at how friendly countries may have been working against American interests in Iraq. All that to come in the hours ahead. We begin with overview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Large scale lootings seemed to lessen a bit in Baghdad, as more Iraqi civilians began policing the streets. Their methods, however, sometimes hard to watch. Despite some beatings, vehicles with stolen goods were being pulled over. Even a stolen ambulance loaded with supplies. And for the first time, a senior officer of the Iraqi police met with American commanders planning for the days and weeks ahead.
In hospitals, still not enough medicine to go around. Wounded continue to clog treatment rooms. Worse, said one doctor, than during the first Gulf War.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the first war, we didn't such huge number. This is number one. And secondly, the type of injuries here is more serious, as I noticed them before.
COOPER: To the west of Baghdad, a discovery in the desert, both curious and chilling.
BRIG. GEN. VINCENT BROOKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: At a checkpoint in the west, coalition special operations forces stopped a bus with 59 military aged men traveling west. Among their possessions were letters offering financial rewards for killing American soldiers, and $630,000 U.S. in $100 bills. The men and all of their possessions have been taken into coalition control.
COOPER: Some firefights in Baghdad were still breaking out. This one, only yards away from the hotel where most international journalists are staying. Unclear who started it, or even why, but a vivid reminder if one was needed Baghdad is still dangerous.
The Marines also discovered a stash of so-called suicide vests neatly bundled in plastic, complete with hangers. Also in Baghdad, the man who was Saddam Hussein's top science adviser surrendered to American troops. General Amir al-Saadi actually engineered his surrender via German television, to make sure he said he wouldn't be harmed.
MAJ. BOB GOWAN, 173RD AIRBORNE BRIGADE: It appears as though we've found a weapon that has tested positive for a nerve agent.
COOPER: To the north, at an airfield west of Kirkuk, the Army found these warheads, which on a first test were positive on the low end scale for nerve agents. A later test, though, was negative. A great deal more investigation is planned.
The roads into Tikrit meantime still empty. That city still not under coalition control.
All over the country, prisons were being searched. Here in Basra, hundreds crowded around British authorities, convinced there were secret cells underground. Nothing like that found so far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't find anything. The locals are still convinced that there are people in there. And so, we're going to try and get some teams in to have a look at that, and do what we can. But at the moment, there's no confirmation that there is anybody in there at all.
COOPER: A cultural catastrophe back in Baghdad. These pictures show the Iraqi National Museum, display cases empty, urns smashed. No telling how much antiquity was stolen or destroyed. One estimate, a guess really, is of 50,000 pieces.
And on a happier note, a homecoming of sorts in the United States for one of the most well-known American soldiers. Hidden from view, but lying on a gurney, Army Private First Class Jessica Lynch, rescued by special forces 10 days ago in Nasiriya, back now along with others wounded in the fighting.
She will have tales to tell. That much seems certain.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: OK, so that's the overview. Now on NEWSNIGHT, we're going to spend a good deal more time tonight on Jessica Lynch's story and that of her unit, the 507th. But we want to first focus on the developments in Baghdad, among them, the killing of a Marine at a checkpoint in the city.
And for that, we turn to CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
Good evening, Christiane.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, indeed, that Marine was killed outside a hospital where Marines have set up checkpoints in order to protect those hospitals and the surrounding areas.
And what we're hearing now from Centcom is that the killer has Syrian identification papers. There were two Syrians, or rather two attackers. The one that killed the Marine was then shot. And the other one fled. So it has been yet another day with quite a lot of gun battles. You were mentioned the overview, the gun battle that happened just outside the Palestine Hotel. Well, we're told that that started when Marine saw two people wielding machine guns and firing them at them from across the river. And then they opened up with their heavy weapons. And they silenced those guns.
And in the meantime, we have been to the hospitals. And we're finding that the doctors are saying there that an awful lot of civilian casualties caused during the three week war.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Baghdad wallows in the wreckage of war. Iraqi tanks and armored vehicles blown up on the city streets, cars and trucks still waving the white flag, lest they be mistaken for the enemy.
And here, right in the middle of a residential neighborhood, a missile. We're told a Sam 2. Marines are here to make sure it's safely towed away. And the people complain loudly about the fallen regime placing such targets in their midst.
They said they were afraid of U.S. bombs dropped in this neighborhood, perhaps aiming for the missile.
This is a deep crater caused by a bomb, and around what seems to be the remnants of some kind of vehicle. But just 20 yards away, there are private homes. And the doctors here tell us that they've received many more civilian casualties during this war than they did during the first Gulf War of 1991.
ABDUL MOHAMMAD HAKEEM, ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON: This is a shells for the abdomen. We open the abdomen and have injury to the bowel.
AMANPOUR: At this one hospital alone, doctors tell us they have received 500 civilians with everything from slight to critical injuries. And they conducted 170 major operations in just 21 days of war.
HAKEEM: In the first war, we didn't see such huge number. This is number one. And secondly, type of injuries here is more serious as I noticed than before.
AMANPOUR: And now with the looting, Dr. Hakeem says he simply can't get the staff to come to work. Today, no anesthetists, no radiologist.
HAKEEM: But thanks, God we cope.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HAKEEM: What to do.
AMANPOUR: That's because they brought their own guns to keep the bandits at bay. U.S. Marines have set up a position near another hospital. Children bring them flowers. And the Marines say they're trying to calm the fears of the past few chaotic days. CPL. QUENTIN MELROE, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Let them know we're here for peace now. That's our mission. It's the -- dealing with security.
AMANPOUR: Inside the hospital filled with more war wounded, including this five year old with a shrapnel wound to the head, the doctor says he's got mixed feelings. Relief that Saddam Hussein is gone, but the deep desire for more security.
ABDUL KARIM YAKHCAN, NEUROSURGEON: Well, Mr. Bush and clear and other decide to bomb and to change the region. Should be planned immediately.
AMANPOUR: Down by the main Marine base, a group of Iraqis decided to make that demand more clear. Waving a banner, calling for a new order, and yelling for peace. At one point, it got ugly.
CROWD: Go home Yankee! Go home Yankee!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're here for your (expletive) freedom! So back up right now.
AMANPOUR: In the end, though, calm prevailed with both the Iraqis and the Marines deciding that discretion is the better part of valor.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So there is possibilities of Iraqi police patrols starting in the cities since the police commander came to meet with the Marines. And also, an Iraqi exile group is saying that a few hours from now, it's going to convene a meeting between doctors, engineers, teachers, police, also sorts of basic civil administrators in this city to see whether they can map out some way for the city to get up and running again, and have some kind of government -- Anderson?
COOPER: Christiane, the Bush administration has basically said that these pictures of the looting, edited together, kind of give a -- or an inaccurate picture of the way things are really in Baghdad. You have certainly been in more than your fair share of places in transition, should we say. From your own personal perspective, how bad is it right now in Baghdad?
AMANPOUR: Well, I don't really know what they may be seeing. But certainly from what we've been seeing and what we've been reporting all over this city, that the looting has been widespread. And we've been reporting it accurately, as have so many other newspaper and television reporters. And people here are really very upset about the massive disorder that has been going on over the last several days.
And they have said that they wished that the U.S. troops would have intervened and done something about it. The U.S. position is that they don't have the manpower to do that, and that they have been trying, or that they yesterday said that they would try to get these police -- local police to try to come and help them restore order. And that may -- we may see the beginnings of that.
But sadly, we can assure you that this is not edited footage. And it is accurate reporting. And everybody we talked to here from wherever we talked to them on the street is very concerned about the danger that they feel that they've been in.
You just saw the firefights that we've been seeing. There are looters shooting each other. I mean, it's been a pretty rocky few days.
COOPER: All right, Christiane Amanpour, thanks very much, live in Baghdad.
One of the stunning developments, among many today, came when Saddam Hussein's science adviser surrendered to American forces. Now if anyone knows where weapons of mass destruction are hidden, Amir Al- Saadi should be the man. But if he knows, he is not talking.
CNN's Chris Plante is working the story from his post at the Pentagon tonight -- Chris.
CHRIS PLANTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. That's right. Of course, the key reason or certainly one of the key reasons that the United States and Great Britain gave for going into Iraq in the first place was to disarm Iraq of their weapons of mass destruction. And now, as you said, one of the key players in U.S. hands. Remains to be seen how that's going to play out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PLANTE (voice-over): Lieutenant General Amir Al-Saadi, Saddam Hussein's chief science adviser, turned himself into U.S. forces outside his home in Baghdad on Saturday. After arranging his surrender before a German television network, he denied knowing anything about Iraq's potential weapons of mass destruction.
AMIR AL-SAADI, LIEUTENANT GENERAL, IRAQ'S CHIEF SCIENCE ADVISER: I was knowledgeable about those programs, the past programs. And I was telling the truth, always telling the truth, never told anything but the truth.
PLANTE: Al-Saadi said he spent the war in his cellar and contacted officials after he saw a TV report that said he was being sought. He's among the 55 most wanted Iraqis identified on U.S. military playing cards.
A day after Secretary of State Colin Powell presented to the United Nations in February, what he said was evidence of Iraqi non- compliance, al-Saadi held his news conference and said it proved nothing.
AL-SAADI: That the purpose of the show that was -- that went on in the Security -- inside the Security Council was mainly for home consumption for the uninformed.
PLANTE: Al-Saadi could be a goldmine to intelligence agencies searching for a smoking gun.
AL-SAADI: Because I know about those programs, about programs. Together with my colleagues, we have always been working together. And nobody interfered in this. Nobody told me what to say. Never.
PLANTE: Pentagon officials have insisted that once Saddam Hussein's regime was gone and they had taken into custody the men in charge of the weapons programs, that they would lead the coalition forces to the secret sites.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think al-Saadi will change his tune. I am absolutely convinced he will. There will be a patient interaction with him by the coalition intelligence agencies to work in their ways...
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PLANTE: So General Al-Saadi sticks to his current position and doesn't come forward with any information about these weapons of destruction programs, then the U.S. is going to have to start seeking out other officials who may be more helpful.
Now it's unclear right now whether this is the public line that General al-Saadi is taking, and whether he might give a different story once he finds himself behind closed doors -- Anderson?
COOPER: Yes, we're going to be following this a little bit later on in the broadcast as well. Chris Plante at the Pentagon, thanks.
It is, of course, important to remember that only some Iraqis are involved in the looting right now. Not all Iraqis. Many of the people you do not see running through the streets say they are simply disgusted and brokenhearted by what is happening. And for some of them, it is time to fight back.
We have that story now from CNN's Rula Amin in Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They looted almost everything: ministries, banks, government buildings, hospitals, and even the Iraqi museum, spreading fear and panic among residents of Baghdad.
(on camera): In el Carad (ph), a neighborhood in Baghdad, residents decided to take matters into their own hands. They erected barricades, carried guns, and stopped the looters from coming into their neighborhoods. And then, they went even one step further.
(voice-over): This retired soldier, along with other neighbors, started stopping the looters and confiscating their spoils, like this public bus that was loaded with goodies. Everything is being stored here, medicine and medical equipment, cigarettes, tires, furniture and loot from the home of Saddam Hussein's personal secretary, Abed Lemoud (ph). "We are sure," the guard here says, "the looters told us that's where they got this stuff from." He used the best perfumes. The guard here tells me, "You need dollars to get this. And they were they only ones who had it while we were starving."
On the door, a note that was send to the highest religious authority for Iraqi Shi'ites, asking if looting was OK. The answer same, "No way."
So people started bringing stuff back to this mosque from chandeliers to bathroom sinks, and everything has to be registered. No one is to touch it. It will be returned to the new authority in Iraq. But there is none yet, and these Iraqis are trying to figure out how to bring law and order back to Iraq.
"The Americans can't do it," says this old man. "They just don't know how things work here."
"Yesterday, the Marines came and took our guns away," says one Carad (ph) resident. "We tried to explain to them we needed the guns to stop the looters, but they had their guns pointed at us and our pleas fell on muffed ears."
On the streets there is anger and frustration. Many don't understand why the U.S. Marines won't stop the looters.
"They're always they're watching, but won't do anything about it," says this store owner. "They're encouraging the looters. Everyone is set up. They removed Saddam Hussein, but what is the result?"
The U.S. Marines say for now, their priority is to protect the power and water plant and the U.N. headquarters, but they can't do much more.
"It really hurts me to see my whole country being looted," says this Iraq, his pain shared by many here.
Rula Amin, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, retired Colonel Mike Turner provides our military expertise tonight. He comes to us from Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Colonel Turner, thanks for being with us.
MIKE TURNER, COL (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE: My pleasure.
COOPER: You know, you see these pictures. You hear these stories about the looting and you think, well why not just put some troops on the streets and stop this from going on? Obviously, it's not that simple. Why?
TURNER: Well, there's a couple of reasons, Anderson. First of all, the troops aren't trained for gensdarme re-work -- police work, at least not extensively trained. They've all had some of that kind of training, but that's not their principle mission.
Secondly, there is still a war going on. They do need to prosecute the war and they need to stay focused on that as the principle mission. There is another element here that may come into play downstream. And obviously, a week, a week and a half ago, we were in big discussions between whether we were happy with the Powell Doctrine, which was overwhelming ground forces, which a lot of military analysts would have preferred, or what I'm calling now Frank's Doctrine, which is a much smaller ground force with overwhelming technology and air power.
It's possible in the days and weeks ahead that we may find that this light brown force may in fact be really challenged in trying to maintain some semblance of civil order and get through this transition period as quickly as we can. The administration in this -- the military force that we use has done a phenomenal job thus far. It's worked exactly according to plan. This kind of disorder was a virtual certainty when removing a regime that was three decades old. So I have to believe that the administration and the military planners have planned how to get through this transition phase quickly, but it's clearly a challenge. And our resources for these few days, certainly, have been stretched pretty much to the maximum, I would think.
COOPER: So is it a question now of just getting more troops on the ground? I mean, there was the 4th Infantry Division, which had been arriving in Kuwait last week.
TURNER: Right.
COOPER: I'm not sure where they are right now. Would they be brought into the mix?
TURNER: Well, it certainly helps the mix if you have more ground forces. And the movement forward of the 4th Infantry Division, I'm sure is exactly what's needed. It puts a larger military element on the ground. But again, we've seen that right now with the war in the stage that it's in, it's very difficult for these troops to transition from that war fighting mode into this gendarmes mode, if you will.
And so, more troops will certainly give us more options. Whether or not it allows us to move into that transitory phase and maintain better control during that phase remains to be seen. What's really needed is a police force.
COOPER: And well, that gendarme role that you keep talking about, what exactly does that entail? It's obviously very different than, you know, boots on the ground Marine work. What does it entail?
TURNER: It is. And it's interesting, when I was on the joint staff as a policy planner for the Middle East and Africa, we had a number of issues. And one of the things that went into our contingency planning was how fast do we move through transition operations, if we have to go into a site where, for example, a genocidal operation was undergoing, where you had to stop, and how fast can we get a police force, a civil police force in country? And one of the organizations, like it or not, as painful as this may be for the Bush administration, is the U.N., to a large extent, who has expertise and can tap into agencies that can bring in civilian police forces to begin to restore some semblance of civil control.
COOPER: And you say the U.N. not really on a political level. You're talking more about they -- not for any political reasons, but really, because they have the experience on the ground doing this kind of work?
TURNER: I think so, or they can tap into agencies that have this kind of expertise. But of course, and I don't know that this hasn't been planned for clearly by the Bush administration and by the military planners, the problem here is they know where we are in the context of the military operation right now. And it may be premature to bring in that kind of a civil police force.
So we'll just have to wait and see how this develops, but clearly, a civilian police force is what's needed. And that will have to get moved in. And the U.N. can tap into the agencies that have that kind of expertise I'm sorry to say.
COOPER: All right, Colonel Turner we're -- we'll check in with you in a little while. Colonel Mike Turner's going to be with us all for the next 3.5 hours or so here on NEWSNIGHT. And we are pleased to have his expertise, so we'll check in with him in a little while.
In other news, yesterday, the fallen soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company were honored at their home base in Fort Bliss, Texas. But today, a homecoming for the soldier who made it out. The rescued POW, Private Jessica Lynch, back on U.S. soil, though not back to West Virginia, not just yet.
She has a lot more treatment ahead of her. Here's Elizabeth Cohen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jessica Lynch arrived at Andrews Air Force base with 49 other injured service members and with a long list of injuries sustained while in captivity in Iraq.
She has fractures in her right arm, foot, and ankle, both legs and a fractured disk in her lumbar or lower spine, according to the military. She also suffered head lacerations.
Saturday morning, a military spokesman read a statement from her family.
COL. DAVID RUBENSTEIN, LANDSTUHL REG. MED. CTR.: Jesse's recover continues and she is doing well. She is in pain, but she is in good spirits. Although she faces a lengthy rehabilitation, she is tough. We believe she will regain her strength soon.
COHEN: Lynch has already had several surgeries. In Germany, doctors put pins and bolts in her broken right arm and both legs and they repaired her fractured disk.
The rehabilitation won't just be physical. Psychologists say there's a mental process all POWs must go through with the help of counselors. It's called decompression in military lingo.
COL. BOB ROLAND, NATIONAL DEFENSE UNIVERSITY: Oftentimes, there are jumbled memories or confusing things going on with her mind. And it's important to have them to process that information and reintegrate it in a way that helps them to recover. And I suspect that Jessica is going through that process right now.
COHEN: Part of that process means staying away from the spotlight, at least for a while. Psychologists say POWs need to make a slow transition back to the real world.
LT. COL. ELSPETH CAMERON RITCHIE, DEPT. OF DEFENSE: When they come from that environment, and they go to an environment that there are well wishers and stimuli and lights and sound, that can just implode upon them. And they can actually become disoriented and confused.
COHEN: Where Jessica Lynch is in the decompression process is not known. What is known, however, is that Americans won't get to see much of their hero as she starts her road to recovery, a road that won't be easy.
But Private Lynch has already proven she knows how to do things that aren't easy.
Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Still ahead tonight, a scary discovery inside a Baghdad elementary school. No reading, writing, arithmetic at this school. Lessons in suicide attacks. And up next, more of what comes next in Iraq.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We're going to go to Washington for a moment, talk with Ken Pollack, CNN analyst and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.
Ken, thanks for being with us on NEWSNIGHT tonight. So you got this guy, Amir Al-Saadi, giving himself up today, the top scientist. But he still says there are not any weapons of mass destruction. If, in fact, that is true, does it really matter anymore?
KEN POLLACK, CNN IRAQ ANALYST: Well, I think for the Bush administration, it might matter. The key for the Bush administration is I think that there are two possible ways to justify the war. One is seeing an Iraq that is prosperous, stable, whole, an Iraq that is a fully functioning member of the community of nations. And if that happens, I think actually the expectations about weapons of mass destruction will diminish pretty quickly. I don't think that anyone will necessarily hold the Bush administration up and say that if you haven't found them, your case wasn't proven. The case for going to war wasn't proven, and therefore, the war was unjustified.
On the other hand, what we've seen so far is obviously not very positive. The rioting, the looting, etcetera not a good start for the reconstruction. It can obviously be recouped, but it's not going to be a great start. And if that continues, then yes, the administration may be under pressure to produce the weapons of mass destruction to justify the war.
COOPER: We've just had word a couple of hours ago about this Marine killed at a checkpoint outside a hospital in Baghdad. Christiane Amanpour reporting that it was a Syrian national or believed to be at least at this point in the early in the investigation.
If it was a Syrian national, it sort of brings up the stories of the jihadists who had come to Baghdad to, you know, to wage jihad in essence. Did that raise your concern level about what's going on in Baghdad and what may lie ahead for the Marines on the ground?
POLLACK: Yes, it absolutely did, Anderson. I -- the stories that we've been hearing all along, that there have been Egyptian and Jordanian and Syrian and other Arab volunteers coming into Iraq, has got to be of concern. Now it's not an enormous threat. And we shouldn't blow this out of proportion. It's not as if the entire Arab world is descending on Iraq to come kill Americans.
But nevertheless, what it does is it demonstrates the strength of anti-Americanism throughout the Arab world. And the fact that you do have people -- they are the fringes of the Arab world, but nevertheless they're out there, who are so desperate, so determined to kill Americans, that they're going to show up wherever we have personnel.
And that's obviously going to be of concern. And it's also a complicating factor because right now, the U.S. military needs to be finishing the job in Iraq in terms of getting rid of the regime and starting the Iraqis down the road to transition, and ensuring stability and security for the Iraqi people.
That gets a lot harder if they have to be worried about their own safety at the same time.
COOPER: You know, Ken, you are a long time Iraq watcher. I'm interested to know your perspective. As you see this images, not only of the looting, but of people basically saying to the cameras, you know, Saddam was bad, but you know, what the U.S. is doing here is terrible. They're not providing security. It seems Iraqis are very quick to adapt to, you know, freedom of the press and to speaking their minds.
POLLACK: Yes, look, there's no question about it. Iraqis are very nationalistic, and I don't want to justify -- excuse me, characterize an entire nation this way, but they do have a reputation in the Arab world for speaking their mind, for being rather assertive. And what you're seeing here is a people who are desperate to be rid of Saddam Hussein, and were really looking forward to having a better life once he was gone, only to find that their life is bad. It's just bad in a different way, and that they had high expectations for the U.S. that really aren't being delivered yet. I think it's incumbent upon the U.S. to do a better job. You know, we've had a long time to be prepared for this. I think that this was obvious that we were going to face this kind of situation. And we need to get the troops in place. And we need to get the humanitarian supplies in place, so that the Iraqi people can start benefiting from their own liberation.
COOPER: All right, Ken Pollack, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.
POLLACK: Thank you, Anderson.
(NEWSBREAK)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: Well, as you no doubt have seen, U.S. forces have been uncovering Iraqi weapons as they've begun moving throughout the country. And today brought the discovery of more, only these cannot truly be called weapons of war. They are simply weapons of terror.
The story from CNN's Jason Bellini.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's one unisex, one size fits all, a non returnable garment worn by those dressed to killed, suicide vests. 50 were found stored at an elementary school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coat bomb of suicide that send me of suicide. The volunteers use it.
BELLINI: They're detonators, simple, easy to use.
VOICE OF MARINE EXPLOSIVES EXPERT: Everyone of them, you know, had laminated instructions and tagged on here. So you know, as long as the bomber could read, he could go carry out his mission.
BELLINI: The Marine explosives experts don't want us to show their faces, but want us to know the sophistication of the Iraqi suicide squads, unknown in number or location.
VOICE OF MARINE EXPLOSIVES EXPERT: This was a centralized place where they dropped all the stuff off. The bombers could pick it up, carry it off, and go carry out their mission. The burst site was pretty much on a 30 second delay. We flipped it on, pulled this out, 30 seconds, it detonates.
BELLINI: Lieutenant Colonel Chris Conlin's Marines stand guard over these weapons why they await removal. LT. COL. CHRIS CONLIN, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Destructive power, it would be kind of hard to estimate. It depends on where they guy is when it goes off, but certainly, if he got into a crowded area, he could take out tens, twenties, thirties of people.
BELLINI: Here, they also found more than 200 other explosives of the more standard variety, the kind that go under cars, into briefcases, and are used for booby traps.
(on camera): More haunting, what's not here. These empty hangers suggesting the possibility that there are Iraqis wearing explosive vests, waiting to detonate themselves.
(voice-over): How many vests were distributed before the Fedayeen fled? The Marines have no idea.
Jason Bellini, CNN, Baghdad, Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): ...in the driveway, a Rolls Royce. And under camouflage netting, an American made Huey helicopter.
Across town in an abandoned building, 13 surface to air missiles. And inside a compound housing a mosque, an AK-47 machine gun, Syrian passports, military garb, and an elaborate first aid station.
An informant telling the soldiers that they would find Fedayeen fighters in the mosque, the men with their faces to the ground telling the soldiers they were simply there to pray.
(on camera): The 101st Airborne Division is rapidly transitioning from its normal combat operations into a police force here in Baghdad. Their primary job now will be to be keep order.
(voice-over): The troops spent much of their day following leads from tipsters. One lead brings them to this otherwise empty lot, where they find, identify and pray over the remains of a U.S. soldier, who until today, had been missing in action.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures.
CHILCOTE: These soldiers will be looking for more cooperation in the days ahead. The 101st is responsible for most of southern Baghdad. And they understand now that their work is just getting started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHILCOTE: Anderson, there is as much policing to do in Baghdad, as there really is time in the day. In fact, the commander of the 101st Airborne's 3rd Brigade, with whom I was riding today, said it's almost dangerous to stop when he's driving through the city because someone will definitely come up to him and ask him to check something out for him. And he simply just doesn't have enough time.
People are -- what has truly amazed me is the amount of support the troops are getting. And it's really two fold. Both leaving the soldiers to weapons caches. And the city is teeming with weapons. And also leading them to suspected sites where, at least according to the locals, they might find Ba'ath Party officials or stray Iraqi soldiers.
The -- it's pretty amazing. We were out where you saw those surface to air missiles in my story there today. And just one example of the warmth and that the soldiers are getting shown a little girl actually brought the troops hot tea while they were checking out these surface to air missiles. So really a lot of support and support that they're going to continue to need as they transition to this policing role here in Baghdad -- Anderson?
COOPER: Right. And it's interesting you say that the troops you are with have been getting a lot of support, because we've been seeing all these pictures for days now of Iraqi citizens in Baghdad complaining, largely two television cameras saying Americans aren't doing enough. Why are they allowing the looting to continue? So are the troops hearing that at all from people they run into?
CHILCOTE: Absolutely, there are three concerns, I think, at this point in the Iraqis' mind. One is, and they have been outlined to me for the last two weeks as U.S. troops took over -- took control of the country. One is they still are concerned about Saddam Hussein. They -- a lot of people, believe it or not, have suggested to me that they are afraid that the U.S. may cut some last minute deal with Saddam Hussein, as wild of an idea as that might seem.
The second concern really seems to be one of security. They say, OK, if we're going to show our allegiance to the U.S. troops here, then we would like to see some security. We do need some control taking over this city.
And thirdly, there are a lot of people that are concerned about the American soldiers' intentions, the American government's intentions here. They are happy to have the United States restore order in the city. What they don't want to see is the Americans controlling Iraq -- Anderson?
COOPER: And Ryan, as the 101st, at least the troops you're with, as they look to this policing role, is it something that they welcome? Or is it something that they are sort of dreading? I mean, police work is difficult. It is often tedious. It's getting involved in peoples' lives. A lot of those troops, obviously, don't speak the language. What are your thoughts about it?
CHILCOTE: Yes, Anderson, I think it depends on who you talk to. Obviously a lot of soldiers are in the Army because they prefer combat operations. That's where they got in. They, you know, the Army is about being in war. But a lot of them would prefer not to be being shot at. And they would prefer to be helping out.
You know, they even have a term for it. They call it "the war for hearts and minds." And that really is beginning right now. And in fact, these soldiers were in Afghanistan. They just got back about eight months ago. And the work that they're just beginning here now in Baghdad is really what they were doing in southern Afghanistan, in the case of these soldiers, for four or five months, the last four or five months of their time in Afghanistan.
This is not new work to them. They are now used to policing areas, and trying to maintain order -- Anderson?
COOPER: And there is a lot of order to be maintained right now in Baghdad. Ryan Chilcote, thanks very much for the 101st Airborne in Baghdad.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: There it is, the focus of so much thought and concern over the last several weeks: Baghdad, 6:48 a.m., a new day. Who knows what it will bring.
Suicide bombings, neighborhood feuds, some of the range of problems U.S. troops in Baghdad are going to have to deal with, as they begin to take on a policing role. Are Marines ready to walk the beat in Baghdad? Well, Gary Anderson is a retired Marine Corps Colonel and expert on both urban warfare and peacekeeping. He is with us tonight in Washington.
Colonel Anderson, thanks for being with us. How about it? Are the Marines ready for this?
GARY ANDERSON, COL. (RET.), U.S. MARINES: I think they are. For a long time now, the Marines have had an outlook on this sort of thing, that they call a three block war. It's a term General Krulack (ph) Commandant once removed gave it, talking about peacekeeping and one block humanitarian operations in another, and potentially war fighting in another block.
And that's exactly what's happening in Baghdad right now. They've been training for it. I think they're as ready for it as they can be.
COOPER: We've seen, you know, obviously operations in Somalia where soldiers have been in a peacekeeping role, as well as Marines. It is a tough duty, as you say. It's on one part, it's humanitarian. On the other, it is protection. There are so many different aspects to this. Are they going to need more forces, more personnel on the ground?
ANDERSON: You know, it's a hard thing to say. It depends on how long and what kind of situation you have. I would suspect that there's probably a plan afoot to put more in the way of military police and psychological operations, civil affairs people on the ground. Once we've got the logistics infrastructure to handle it, I can't say that for a fact, I don't know, but I would suspect that's the case.
But by and large, these kids have been trained pretty well, I think, to do it. They've had a lot of work at it. And has the Army. They've got a nice little base down at Fort Poke, where they do a lot of this kind of work. And they go through all three blocks in a three block war.
I know the 101st has put all their battalions through that rotation. So they're about as ready as they're -- they can be.
COOPER: Well, I mean, how do you it? How do you, on the one hand, protect against these pockets of resistance? You know, just a couple of hours ago, word on a Marine being killed, an apparent attack at a checkpoint by a Syrian national, at least early reports indicate that. How do you protect against those kind of individual attacks? And on the other hand, you know, walk the beat? Get out there, talk to people, press the flesh, find out their problems?
ANDERSON: Yes, let me tell you something. We found -- we the Marines found that when they involuntarily pulled us back in 1982 into cantonments in Beirut, we didn't get safer. We got -- it got more dangerous for us, because our folks weren't out in the streets talking to people, showing presence, getting to know the neighborhood, getting to know the lay of the land and what not.
I understand that forced protection is an important thing, but I think at the end of the day, you're a lot safer getting your people out in the street and getting to know the neighborhood, and letting them get to know you.
COOPER: Safer because in the long run, it puts a human face on our troops, and gets information, it's better intelligence?
ANDERSON: Yes. You know, I honestly think that the best tool we have for transitioning Iraq to a democracy is our young soldiers and Marines on the street, because you know, here you've got the representatives of a democratic society. With their bosses, the American people, looking over their shoulders through the embedded media and so forth, what a great leadership example type of thing to show the Iraqi people, something to strive for.
You know, a military and a security force naturally works for them, and not some thug.
COOPER: All right, Colonel Gary Anderson, appreciate you joining us tonight. Thanks very much.
ANDERSON: Thanks, Andy.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 12, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. A lot to get to. Some chilling discoveries today. Also, the killing of a Marine in Baghdad. Also, a homecoming and a look at how friendly countries may have been working against American interests in Iraq. All that to come in the hours ahead. We begin with overview.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER (voice-over): Large scale lootings seemed to lessen a bit in Baghdad, as more Iraqi civilians began policing the streets. Their methods, however, sometimes hard to watch. Despite some beatings, vehicles with stolen goods were being pulled over. Even a stolen ambulance loaded with supplies. And for the first time, a senior officer of the Iraqi police met with American commanders planning for the days and weeks ahead.
In hospitals, still not enough medicine to go around. Wounded continue to clog treatment rooms. Worse, said one doctor, than during the first Gulf War.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the first war, we didn't such huge number. This is number one. And secondly, the type of injuries here is more serious, as I noticed them before.
COOPER: To the west of Baghdad, a discovery in the desert, both curious and chilling.
BRIG. GEN. VINCENT BROOKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: At a checkpoint in the west, coalition special operations forces stopped a bus with 59 military aged men traveling west. Among their possessions were letters offering financial rewards for killing American soldiers, and $630,000 U.S. in $100 bills. The men and all of their possessions have been taken into coalition control.
COOPER: Some firefights in Baghdad were still breaking out. This one, only yards away from the hotel where most international journalists are staying. Unclear who started it, or even why, but a vivid reminder if one was needed Baghdad is still dangerous.
The Marines also discovered a stash of so-called suicide vests neatly bundled in plastic, complete with hangers. Also in Baghdad, the man who was Saddam Hussein's top science adviser surrendered to American troops. General Amir al-Saadi actually engineered his surrender via German television, to make sure he said he wouldn't be harmed.
MAJ. BOB GOWAN, 173RD AIRBORNE BRIGADE: It appears as though we've found a weapon that has tested positive for a nerve agent.
COOPER: To the north, at an airfield west of Kirkuk, the Army found these warheads, which on a first test were positive on the low end scale for nerve agents. A later test, though, was negative. A great deal more investigation is planned.
The roads into Tikrit meantime still empty. That city still not under coalition control.
All over the country, prisons were being searched. Here in Basra, hundreds crowded around British authorities, convinced there were secret cells underground. Nothing like that found so far.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We didn't find anything. The locals are still convinced that there are people in there. And so, we're going to try and get some teams in to have a look at that, and do what we can. But at the moment, there's no confirmation that there is anybody in there at all.
COOPER: A cultural catastrophe back in Baghdad. These pictures show the Iraqi National Museum, display cases empty, urns smashed. No telling how much antiquity was stolen or destroyed. One estimate, a guess really, is of 50,000 pieces.
And on a happier note, a homecoming of sorts in the United States for one of the most well-known American soldiers. Hidden from view, but lying on a gurney, Army Private First Class Jessica Lynch, rescued by special forces 10 days ago in Nasiriya, back now along with others wounded in the fighting.
She will have tales to tell. That much seems certain.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: OK, so that's the overview. Now on NEWSNIGHT, we're going to spend a good deal more time tonight on Jessica Lynch's story and that of her unit, the 507th. But we want to first focus on the developments in Baghdad, among them, the killing of a Marine at a checkpoint in the city.
And for that, we turn to CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
Good evening, Christiane.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, indeed, that Marine was killed outside a hospital where Marines have set up checkpoints in order to protect those hospitals and the surrounding areas.
And what we're hearing now from Centcom is that the killer has Syrian identification papers. There were two Syrians, or rather two attackers. The one that killed the Marine was then shot. And the other one fled. So it has been yet another day with quite a lot of gun battles. You were mentioned the overview, the gun battle that happened just outside the Palestine Hotel. Well, we're told that that started when Marine saw two people wielding machine guns and firing them at them from across the river. And then they opened up with their heavy weapons. And they silenced those guns.
And in the meantime, we have been to the hospitals. And we're finding that the doctors are saying there that an awful lot of civilian casualties caused during the three week war.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Baghdad wallows in the wreckage of war. Iraqi tanks and armored vehicles blown up on the city streets, cars and trucks still waving the white flag, lest they be mistaken for the enemy.
And here, right in the middle of a residential neighborhood, a missile. We're told a Sam 2. Marines are here to make sure it's safely towed away. And the people complain loudly about the fallen regime placing such targets in their midst.
They said they were afraid of U.S. bombs dropped in this neighborhood, perhaps aiming for the missile.
This is a deep crater caused by a bomb, and around what seems to be the remnants of some kind of vehicle. But just 20 yards away, there are private homes. And the doctors here tell us that they've received many more civilian casualties during this war than they did during the first Gulf War of 1991.
ABDUL MOHAMMAD HAKEEM, ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON: This is a shells for the abdomen. We open the abdomen and have injury to the bowel.
AMANPOUR: At this one hospital alone, doctors tell us they have received 500 civilians with everything from slight to critical injuries. And they conducted 170 major operations in just 21 days of war.
HAKEEM: In the first war, we didn't see such huge number. This is number one. And secondly, type of injuries here is more serious as I noticed than before.
AMANPOUR: And now with the looting, Dr. Hakeem says he simply can't get the staff to come to work. Today, no anesthetists, no radiologist.
HAKEEM: But thanks, God we cope.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
HAKEEM: What to do.
AMANPOUR: That's because they brought their own guns to keep the bandits at bay. U.S. Marines have set up a position near another hospital. Children bring them flowers. And the Marines say they're trying to calm the fears of the past few chaotic days. CPL. QUENTIN MELROE, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Let them know we're here for peace now. That's our mission. It's the -- dealing with security.
AMANPOUR: Inside the hospital filled with more war wounded, including this five year old with a shrapnel wound to the head, the doctor says he's got mixed feelings. Relief that Saddam Hussein is gone, but the deep desire for more security.
ABDUL KARIM YAKHCAN, NEUROSURGEON: Well, Mr. Bush and clear and other decide to bomb and to change the region. Should be planned immediately.
AMANPOUR: Down by the main Marine base, a group of Iraqis decided to make that demand more clear. Waving a banner, calling for a new order, and yelling for peace. At one point, it got ugly.
CROWD: Go home Yankee! Go home Yankee!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're here for your (expletive) freedom! So back up right now.
AMANPOUR: In the end, though, calm prevailed with both the Iraqis and the Marines deciding that discretion is the better part of valor.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: So there is possibilities of Iraqi police patrols starting in the cities since the police commander came to meet with the Marines. And also, an Iraqi exile group is saying that a few hours from now, it's going to convene a meeting between doctors, engineers, teachers, police, also sorts of basic civil administrators in this city to see whether they can map out some way for the city to get up and running again, and have some kind of government -- Anderson?
COOPER: Christiane, the Bush administration has basically said that these pictures of the looting, edited together, kind of give a -- or an inaccurate picture of the way things are really in Baghdad. You have certainly been in more than your fair share of places in transition, should we say. From your own personal perspective, how bad is it right now in Baghdad?
AMANPOUR: Well, I don't really know what they may be seeing. But certainly from what we've been seeing and what we've been reporting all over this city, that the looting has been widespread. And we've been reporting it accurately, as have so many other newspaper and television reporters. And people here are really very upset about the massive disorder that has been going on over the last several days.
And they have said that they wished that the U.S. troops would have intervened and done something about it. The U.S. position is that they don't have the manpower to do that, and that they have been trying, or that they yesterday said that they would try to get these police -- local police to try to come and help them restore order. And that may -- we may see the beginnings of that.
But sadly, we can assure you that this is not edited footage. And it is accurate reporting. And everybody we talked to here from wherever we talked to them on the street is very concerned about the danger that they feel that they've been in.
You just saw the firefights that we've been seeing. There are looters shooting each other. I mean, it's been a pretty rocky few days.
COOPER: All right, Christiane Amanpour, thanks very much, live in Baghdad.
One of the stunning developments, among many today, came when Saddam Hussein's science adviser surrendered to American forces. Now if anyone knows where weapons of mass destruction are hidden, Amir Al- Saadi should be the man. But if he knows, he is not talking.
CNN's Chris Plante is working the story from his post at the Pentagon tonight -- Chris.
CHRIS PLANTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Anderson. That's right. Of course, the key reason or certainly one of the key reasons that the United States and Great Britain gave for going into Iraq in the first place was to disarm Iraq of their weapons of mass destruction. And now, as you said, one of the key players in U.S. hands. Remains to be seen how that's going to play out.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PLANTE (voice-over): Lieutenant General Amir Al-Saadi, Saddam Hussein's chief science adviser, turned himself into U.S. forces outside his home in Baghdad on Saturday. After arranging his surrender before a German television network, he denied knowing anything about Iraq's potential weapons of mass destruction.
AMIR AL-SAADI, LIEUTENANT GENERAL, IRAQ'S CHIEF SCIENCE ADVISER: I was knowledgeable about those programs, the past programs. And I was telling the truth, always telling the truth, never told anything but the truth.
PLANTE: Al-Saadi said he spent the war in his cellar and contacted officials after he saw a TV report that said he was being sought. He's among the 55 most wanted Iraqis identified on U.S. military playing cards.
A day after Secretary of State Colin Powell presented to the United Nations in February, what he said was evidence of Iraqi non- compliance, al-Saadi held his news conference and said it proved nothing.
AL-SAADI: That the purpose of the show that was -- that went on in the Security -- inside the Security Council was mainly for home consumption for the uninformed.
PLANTE: Al-Saadi could be a goldmine to intelligence agencies searching for a smoking gun.
AL-SAADI: Because I know about those programs, about programs. Together with my colleagues, we have always been working together. And nobody interfered in this. Nobody told me what to say. Never.
PLANTE: Pentagon officials have insisted that once Saddam Hussein's regime was gone and they had taken into custody the men in charge of the weapons programs, that they would lead the coalition forces to the secret sites.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think al-Saadi will change his tune. I am absolutely convinced he will. There will be a patient interaction with him by the coalition intelligence agencies to work in their ways...
(END VIDEOTAPE)
PLANTE: So General Al-Saadi sticks to his current position and doesn't come forward with any information about these weapons of destruction programs, then the U.S. is going to have to start seeking out other officials who may be more helpful.
Now it's unclear right now whether this is the public line that General al-Saadi is taking, and whether he might give a different story once he finds himself behind closed doors -- Anderson?
COOPER: Yes, we're going to be following this a little bit later on in the broadcast as well. Chris Plante at the Pentagon, thanks.
It is, of course, important to remember that only some Iraqis are involved in the looting right now. Not all Iraqis. Many of the people you do not see running through the streets say they are simply disgusted and brokenhearted by what is happening. And for some of them, it is time to fight back.
We have that story now from CNN's Rula Amin in Baghdad.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They looted almost everything: ministries, banks, government buildings, hospitals, and even the Iraqi museum, spreading fear and panic among residents of Baghdad.
(on camera): In el Carad (ph), a neighborhood in Baghdad, residents decided to take matters into their own hands. They erected barricades, carried guns, and stopped the looters from coming into their neighborhoods. And then, they went even one step further.
(voice-over): This retired soldier, along with other neighbors, started stopping the looters and confiscating their spoils, like this public bus that was loaded with goodies. Everything is being stored here, medicine and medical equipment, cigarettes, tires, furniture and loot from the home of Saddam Hussein's personal secretary, Abed Lemoud (ph). "We are sure," the guard here says, "the looters told us that's where they got this stuff from." He used the best perfumes. The guard here tells me, "You need dollars to get this. And they were they only ones who had it while we were starving."
On the door, a note that was send to the highest religious authority for Iraqi Shi'ites, asking if looting was OK. The answer same, "No way."
So people started bringing stuff back to this mosque from chandeliers to bathroom sinks, and everything has to be registered. No one is to touch it. It will be returned to the new authority in Iraq. But there is none yet, and these Iraqis are trying to figure out how to bring law and order back to Iraq.
"The Americans can't do it," says this old man. "They just don't know how things work here."
"Yesterday, the Marines came and took our guns away," says one Carad (ph) resident. "We tried to explain to them we needed the guns to stop the looters, but they had their guns pointed at us and our pleas fell on muffed ears."
On the streets there is anger and frustration. Many don't understand why the U.S. Marines won't stop the looters.
"They're always they're watching, but won't do anything about it," says this store owner. "They're encouraging the looters. Everyone is set up. They removed Saddam Hussein, but what is the result?"
The U.S. Marines say for now, their priority is to protect the power and water plant and the U.N. headquarters, but they can't do much more.
"It really hurts me to see my whole country being looted," says this Iraq, his pain shared by many here.
Rula Amin, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Well, retired Colonel Mike Turner provides our military expertise tonight. He comes to us from Colorado Springs, Colorado.
Colonel Turner, thanks for being with us.
MIKE TURNER, COL (RET.), U.S. AIR FORCE: My pleasure.
COOPER: You know, you see these pictures. You hear these stories about the looting and you think, well why not just put some troops on the streets and stop this from going on? Obviously, it's not that simple. Why?
TURNER: Well, there's a couple of reasons, Anderson. First of all, the troops aren't trained for gensdarme re-work -- police work, at least not extensively trained. They've all had some of that kind of training, but that's not their principle mission.
Secondly, there is still a war going on. They do need to prosecute the war and they need to stay focused on that as the principle mission. There is another element here that may come into play downstream. And obviously, a week, a week and a half ago, we were in big discussions between whether we were happy with the Powell Doctrine, which was overwhelming ground forces, which a lot of military analysts would have preferred, or what I'm calling now Frank's Doctrine, which is a much smaller ground force with overwhelming technology and air power.
It's possible in the days and weeks ahead that we may find that this light brown force may in fact be really challenged in trying to maintain some semblance of civil order and get through this transition period as quickly as we can. The administration in this -- the military force that we use has done a phenomenal job thus far. It's worked exactly according to plan. This kind of disorder was a virtual certainty when removing a regime that was three decades old. So I have to believe that the administration and the military planners have planned how to get through this transition phase quickly, but it's clearly a challenge. And our resources for these few days, certainly, have been stretched pretty much to the maximum, I would think.
COOPER: So is it a question now of just getting more troops on the ground? I mean, there was the 4th Infantry Division, which had been arriving in Kuwait last week.
TURNER: Right.
COOPER: I'm not sure where they are right now. Would they be brought into the mix?
TURNER: Well, it certainly helps the mix if you have more ground forces. And the movement forward of the 4th Infantry Division, I'm sure is exactly what's needed. It puts a larger military element on the ground. But again, we've seen that right now with the war in the stage that it's in, it's very difficult for these troops to transition from that war fighting mode into this gendarmes mode, if you will.
And so, more troops will certainly give us more options. Whether or not it allows us to move into that transitory phase and maintain better control during that phase remains to be seen. What's really needed is a police force.
COOPER: And well, that gendarme role that you keep talking about, what exactly does that entail? It's obviously very different than, you know, boots on the ground Marine work. What does it entail?
TURNER: It is. And it's interesting, when I was on the joint staff as a policy planner for the Middle East and Africa, we had a number of issues. And one of the things that went into our contingency planning was how fast do we move through transition operations, if we have to go into a site where, for example, a genocidal operation was undergoing, where you had to stop, and how fast can we get a police force, a civil police force in country? And one of the organizations, like it or not, as painful as this may be for the Bush administration, is the U.N., to a large extent, who has expertise and can tap into agencies that can bring in civilian police forces to begin to restore some semblance of civil control.
COOPER: And you say the U.N. not really on a political level. You're talking more about they -- not for any political reasons, but really, because they have the experience on the ground doing this kind of work?
TURNER: I think so, or they can tap into agencies that have this kind of expertise. But of course, and I don't know that this hasn't been planned for clearly by the Bush administration and by the military planners, the problem here is they know where we are in the context of the military operation right now. And it may be premature to bring in that kind of a civil police force.
So we'll just have to wait and see how this develops, but clearly, a civilian police force is what's needed. And that will have to get moved in. And the U.N. can tap into the agencies that have that kind of expertise I'm sorry to say.
COOPER: All right, Colonel Turner we're -- we'll check in with you in a little while. Colonel Mike Turner's going to be with us all for the next 3.5 hours or so here on NEWSNIGHT. And we are pleased to have his expertise, so we'll check in with him in a little while.
In other news, yesterday, the fallen soldiers of the 507th Maintenance Company were honored at their home base in Fort Bliss, Texas. But today, a homecoming for the soldier who made it out. The rescued POW, Private Jessica Lynch, back on U.S. soil, though not back to West Virginia, not just yet.
She has a lot more treatment ahead of her. Here's Elizabeth Cohen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Jessica Lynch arrived at Andrews Air Force base with 49 other injured service members and with a long list of injuries sustained while in captivity in Iraq.
She has fractures in her right arm, foot, and ankle, both legs and a fractured disk in her lumbar or lower spine, according to the military. She also suffered head lacerations.
Saturday morning, a military spokesman read a statement from her family.
COL. DAVID RUBENSTEIN, LANDSTUHL REG. MED. CTR.: Jesse's recover continues and she is doing well. She is in pain, but she is in good spirits. Although she faces a lengthy rehabilitation, she is tough. We believe she will regain her strength soon.
COHEN: Lynch has already had several surgeries. In Germany, doctors put pins and bolts in her broken right arm and both legs and they repaired her fractured disk.
The rehabilitation won't just be physical. Psychologists say there's a mental process all POWs must go through with the help of counselors. It's called decompression in military lingo.
COL. BOB ROLAND, NATIONAL DEFENSE UNIVERSITY: Oftentimes, there are jumbled memories or confusing things going on with her mind. And it's important to have them to process that information and reintegrate it in a way that helps them to recover. And I suspect that Jessica is going through that process right now.
COHEN: Part of that process means staying away from the spotlight, at least for a while. Psychologists say POWs need to make a slow transition back to the real world.
LT. COL. ELSPETH CAMERON RITCHIE, DEPT. OF DEFENSE: When they come from that environment, and they go to an environment that there are well wishers and stimuli and lights and sound, that can just implode upon them. And they can actually become disoriented and confused.
COHEN: Where Jessica Lynch is in the decompression process is not known. What is known, however, is that Americans won't get to see much of their hero as she starts her road to recovery, a road that won't be easy.
But Private Lynch has already proven she knows how to do things that aren't easy.
Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: Still ahead tonight, a scary discovery inside a Baghdad elementary school. No reading, writing, arithmetic at this school. Lessons in suicide attacks. And up next, more of what comes next in Iraq.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COOPER: We're going to go to Washington for a moment, talk with Ken Pollack, CNN analyst and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.
Ken, thanks for being with us on NEWSNIGHT tonight. So you got this guy, Amir Al-Saadi, giving himself up today, the top scientist. But he still says there are not any weapons of mass destruction. If, in fact, that is true, does it really matter anymore?
KEN POLLACK, CNN IRAQ ANALYST: Well, I think for the Bush administration, it might matter. The key for the Bush administration is I think that there are two possible ways to justify the war. One is seeing an Iraq that is prosperous, stable, whole, an Iraq that is a fully functioning member of the community of nations. And if that happens, I think actually the expectations about weapons of mass destruction will diminish pretty quickly. I don't think that anyone will necessarily hold the Bush administration up and say that if you haven't found them, your case wasn't proven. The case for going to war wasn't proven, and therefore, the war was unjustified.
On the other hand, what we've seen so far is obviously not very positive. The rioting, the looting, etcetera not a good start for the reconstruction. It can obviously be recouped, but it's not going to be a great start. And if that continues, then yes, the administration may be under pressure to produce the weapons of mass destruction to justify the war.
COOPER: We've just had word a couple of hours ago about this Marine killed at a checkpoint outside a hospital in Baghdad. Christiane Amanpour reporting that it was a Syrian national or believed to be at least at this point in the early in the investigation.
If it was a Syrian national, it sort of brings up the stories of the jihadists who had come to Baghdad to, you know, to wage jihad in essence. Did that raise your concern level about what's going on in Baghdad and what may lie ahead for the Marines on the ground?
POLLACK: Yes, it absolutely did, Anderson. I -- the stories that we've been hearing all along, that there have been Egyptian and Jordanian and Syrian and other Arab volunteers coming into Iraq, has got to be of concern. Now it's not an enormous threat. And we shouldn't blow this out of proportion. It's not as if the entire Arab world is descending on Iraq to come kill Americans.
But nevertheless, what it does is it demonstrates the strength of anti-Americanism throughout the Arab world. And the fact that you do have people -- they are the fringes of the Arab world, but nevertheless they're out there, who are so desperate, so determined to kill Americans, that they're going to show up wherever we have personnel.
And that's obviously going to be of concern. And it's also a complicating factor because right now, the U.S. military needs to be finishing the job in Iraq in terms of getting rid of the regime and starting the Iraqis down the road to transition, and ensuring stability and security for the Iraqi people.
That gets a lot harder if they have to be worried about their own safety at the same time.
COOPER: You know, Ken, you are a long time Iraq watcher. I'm interested to know your perspective. As you see this images, not only of the looting, but of people basically saying to the cameras, you know, Saddam was bad, but you know, what the U.S. is doing here is terrible. They're not providing security. It seems Iraqis are very quick to adapt to, you know, freedom of the press and to speaking their minds.
POLLACK: Yes, look, there's no question about it. Iraqis are very nationalistic, and I don't want to justify -- excuse me, characterize an entire nation this way, but they do have a reputation in the Arab world for speaking their mind, for being rather assertive. And what you're seeing here is a people who are desperate to be rid of Saddam Hussein, and were really looking forward to having a better life once he was gone, only to find that their life is bad. It's just bad in a different way, and that they had high expectations for the U.S. that really aren't being delivered yet. I think it's incumbent upon the U.S. to do a better job. You know, we've had a long time to be prepared for this. I think that this was obvious that we were going to face this kind of situation. And we need to get the troops in place. And we need to get the humanitarian supplies in place, so that the Iraqi people can start benefiting from their own liberation.
COOPER: All right, Ken Pollack, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.
POLLACK: Thank you, Anderson.
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COOPER: Well, as you no doubt have seen, U.S. forces have been uncovering Iraqi weapons as they've begun moving throughout the country. And today brought the discovery of more, only these cannot truly be called weapons of war. They are simply weapons of terror.
The story from CNN's Jason Bellini.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JASON BELLINI, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's one unisex, one size fits all, a non returnable garment worn by those dressed to killed, suicide vests. 50 were found stored at an elementary school.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coat bomb of suicide that send me of suicide. The volunteers use it.
BELLINI: They're detonators, simple, easy to use.
VOICE OF MARINE EXPLOSIVES EXPERT: Everyone of them, you know, had laminated instructions and tagged on here. So you know, as long as the bomber could read, he could go carry out his mission.
BELLINI: The Marine explosives experts don't want us to show their faces, but want us to know the sophistication of the Iraqi suicide squads, unknown in number or location.
VOICE OF MARINE EXPLOSIVES EXPERT: This was a centralized place where they dropped all the stuff off. The bombers could pick it up, carry it off, and go carry out their mission. The burst site was pretty much on a 30 second delay. We flipped it on, pulled this out, 30 seconds, it detonates.
BELLINI: Lieutenant Colonel Chris Conlin's Marines stand guard over these weapons why they await removal. LT. COL. CHRIS CONLIN, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Destructive power, it would be kind of hard to estimate. It depends on where they guy is when it goes off, but certainly, if he got into a crowded area, he could take out tens, twenties, thirties of people.
BELLINI: Here, they also found more than 200 other explosives of the more standard variety, the kind that go under cars, into briefcases, and are used for booby traps.
(on camera): More haunting, what's not here. These empty hangers suggesting the possibility that there are Iraqis wearing explosive vests, waiting to detonate themselves.
(voice-over): How many vests were distributed before the Fedayeen fled? The Marines have no idea.
Jason Bellini, CNN, Baghdad, Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): ...in the driveway, a Rolls Royce. And under camouflage netting, an American made Huey helicopter.
Across town in an abandoned building, 13 surface to air missiles. And inside a compound housing a mosque, an AK-47 machine gun, Syrian passports, military garb, and an elaborate first aid station.
An informant telling the soldiers that they would find Fedayeen fighters in the mosque, the men with their faces to the ground telling the soldiers they were simply there to pray.
(on camera): The 101st Airborne Division is rapidly transitioning from its normal combat operations into a police force here in Baghdad. Their primary job now will be to be keep order.
(voice-over): The troops spent much of their day following leads from tipsters. One lead brings them to this otherwise empty lot, where they find, identify and pray over the remains of a U.S. soldier, who until today, had been missing in action.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He maketh me to lie down in green pastures.
CHILCOTE: These soldiers will be looking for more cooperation in the days ahead. The 101st is responsible for most of southern Baghdad. And they understand now that their work is just getting started.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHILCOTE: Anderson, there is as much policing to do in Baghdad, as there really is time in the day. In fact, the commander of the 101st Airborne's 3rd Brigade, with whom I was riding today, said it's almost dangerous to stop when he's driving through the city because someone will definitely come up to him and ask him to check something out for him. And he simply just doesn't have enough time.
People are -- what has truly amazed me is the amount of support the troops are getting. And it's really two fold. Both leaving the soldiers to weapons caches. And the city is teeming with weapons. And also leading them to suspected sites where, at least according to the locals, they might find Ba'ath Party officials or stray Iraqi soldiers.
The -- it's pretty amazing. We were out where you saw those surface to air missiles in my story there today. And just one example of the warmth and that the soldiers are getting shown a little girl actually brought the troops hot tea while they were checking out these surface to air missiles. So really a lot of support and support that they're going to continue to need as they transition to this policing role here in Baghdad -- Anderson?
COOPER: Right. And it's interesting you say that the troops you are with have been getting a lot of support, because we've been seeing all these pictures for days now of Iraqi citizens in Baghdad complaining, largely two television cameras saying Americans aren't doing enough. Why are they allowing the looting to continue? So are the troops hearing that at all from people they run into?
CHILCOTE: Absolutely, there are three concerns, I think, at this point in the Iraqis' mind. One is, and they have been outlined to me for the last two weeks as U.S. troops took over -- took control of the country. One is they still are concerned about Saddam Hussein. They -- a lot of people, believe it or not, have suggested to me that they are afraid that the U.S. may cut some last minute deal with Saddam Hussein, as wild of an idea as that might seem.
The second concern really seems to be one of security. They say, OK, if we're going to show our allegiance to the U.S. troops here, then we would like to see some security. We do need some control taking over this city.
And thirdly, there are a lot of people that are concerned about the American soldiers' intentions, the American government's intentions here. They are happy to have the United States restore order in the city. What they don't want to see is the Americans controlling Iraq -- Anderson?
COOPER: And Ryan, as the 101st, at least the troops you're with, as they look to this policing role, is it something that they welcome? Or is it something that they are sort of dreading? I mean, police work is difficult. It is often tedious. It's getting involved in peoples' lives. A lot of those troops, obviously, don't speak the language. What are your thoughts about it?
CHILCOTE: Yes, Anderson, I think it depends on who you talk to. Obviously a lot of soldiers are in the Army because they prefer combat operations. That's where they got in. They, you know, the Army is about being in war. But a lot of them would prefer not to be being shot at. And they would prefer to be helping out.
You know, they even have a term for it. They call it "the war for hearts and minds." And that really is beginning right now. And in fact, these soldiers were in Afghanistan. They just got back about eight months ago. And the work that they're just beginning here now in Baghdad is really what they were doing in southern Afghanistan, in the case of these soldiers, for four or five months, the last four or five months of their time in Afghanistan.
This is not new work to them. They are now used to policing areas, and trying to maintain order -- Anderson?
COOPER: And there is a lot of order to be maintained right now in Baghdad. Ryan Chilcote, thanks very much for the 101st Airborne in Baghdad.
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COOPER: There it is, the focus of so much thought and concern over the last several weeks: Baghdad, 6:48 a.m., a new day. Who knows what it will bring.
Suicide bombings, neighborhood feuds, some of the range of problems U.S. troops in Baghdad are going to have to deal with, as they begin to take on a policing role. Are Marines ready to walk the beat in Baghdad? Well, Gary Anderson is a retired Marine Corps Colonel and expert on both urban warfare and peacekeeping. He is with us tonight in Washington.
Colonel Anderson, thanks for being with us. How about it? Are the Marines ready for this?
GARY ANDERSON, COL. (RET.), U.S. MARINES: I think they are. For a long time now, the Marines have had an outlook on this sort of thing, that they call a three block war. It's a term General Krulack (ph) Commandant once removed gave it, talking about peacekeeping and one block humanitarian operations in another, and potentially war fighting in another block.
And that's exactly what's happening in Baghdad right now. They've been training for it. I think they're as ready for it as they can be.
COOPER: We've seen, you know, obviously operations in Somalia where soldiers have been in a peacekeeping role, as well as Marines. It is a tough duty, as you say. It's on one part, it's humanitarian. On the other, it is protection. There are so many different aspects to this. Are they going to need more forces, more personnel on the ground?
ANDERSON: You know, it's a hard thing to say. It depends on how long and what kind of situation you have. I would suspect that there's probably a plan afoot to put more in the way of military police and psychological operations, civil affairs people on the ground. Once we've got the logistics infrastructure to handle it, I can't say that for a fact, I don't know, but I would suspect that's the case.
But by and large, these kids have been trained pretty well, I think, to do it. They've had a lot of work at it. And has the Army. They've got a nice little base down at Fort Poke, where they do a lot of this kind of work. And they go through all three blocks in a three block war.
I know the 101st has put all their battalions through that rotation. So they're about as ready as they're -- they can be.
COOPER: Well, I mean, how do you it? How do you, on the one hand, protect against these pockets of resistance? You know, just a couple of hours ago, word on a Marine being killed, an apparent attack at a checkpoint by a Syrian national, at least early reports indicate that. How do you protect against those kind of individual attacks? And on the other hand, you know, walk the beat? Get out there, talk to people, press the flesh, find out their problems?
ANDERSON: Yes, let me tell you something. We found -- we the Marines found that when they involuntarily pulled us back in 1982 into cantonments in Beirut, we didn't get safer. We got -- it got more dangerous for us, because our folks weren't out in the streets talking to people, showing presence, getting to know the neighborhood, getting to know the lay of the land and what not.
I understand that forced protection is an important thing, but I think at the end of the day, you're a lot safer getting your people out in the street and getting to know the neighborhood, and letting them get to know you.
COOPER: Safer because in the long run, it puts a human face on our troops, and gets information, it's better intelligence?
ANDERSON: Yes. You know, I honestly think that the best tool we have for transitioning Iraq to a democracy is our young soldiers and Marines on the street, because you know, here you've got the representatives of a democratic society. With their bosses, the American people, looking over their shoulders through the embedded media and so forth, what a great leadership example type of thing to show the Iraqi people, something to strive for.
You know, a military and a security force naturally works for them, and not some thug.
COOPER: All right, Colonel Gary Anderson, appreciate you joining us tonight. Thanks very much.
ANDERSON: Thanks, Andy.
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