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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Questions About Syria

Aired April 14, 2003 - 23:33   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN HOST: No one knows for certain whether or not Iraqi figures have slipped into Syria as the administration has been alleging. There's no question that some things have gotten through to Damascus, American concerns among them.
CNN's Sheila MacVicar joins us now from Syria with more on that.

Sheila, good evening.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Aaron.

Indeed, American concerns are being held -- heard loud and clear here in Damascus after what might be called that triple whammy on Sunday. We had the president, the secretary of state, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, all of them speaking out about their concerns about Syria, all of them citing a different issue of concern.

In addition to that, Syria's young president, Bashar al-Assad, has had a stream of visitors through here, no Americans, at least not so far, but the French, British Foreign Office and the Saudi Foreign Minister yesterday. All of them emphasizing to Syria's president that there are serious questions and serious questions which Syria must take seriously. And when the time comes, Syria must fully cooperate.

Now this litany of allegations, as you said, this whole issue of Syria's covert chemical weapons program, its sale of military equipment to Iraq, perhaps its permission or permitting former members of Saddam Hussein's regime to find some form of shelter here in Syria, on all of these issues, Syria is so far taking a very firm line as we heard again from Syria's ambassador to the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSTOM AL-ZOUBI, SYRIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: All these accusations are baseless. We deny them. We don't have weapons of mass destruction. It is Israel who has the big arsenry (ph) of weapons of mass destruction. And we are wondering, not only me, the whole Arab region, the whole Arab people are asking, why to focus on Syria this time and forgetting everything about Israel? This is -- they understand it as a double standard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACVICAR: Now, we've obviously heard from the U.K.'s Foreign Secretary Jack Straw yesterday who has said repeatedly there is no list. Syria is not on a list. Syria is not next. But obviously, standing in Damascus and looking at what has happened in Iraq, one couldn't help thinking that perhaps there were designs. Designs to at least change things here, perhaps not in the same way, but certainly a desire to make clear that the future will look a lot different than it does now -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. What are the options for the American government? If the American government is not planning on waging war with Syria, what is the leverage?

MACVICAR: There are a number of different things, political, diplomatic, economic, financial. On the diplomatic front, for example, they could withdraw the U.S. ambassador from Damascus. That would send a very strong signal, but it would obviously reduce the dialogue that the United States is able to have with Syria at what is clearly becoming a more sensitive time.

They could say restrict Syrian diplomats to 25 miles of Washington. That doesn't sound like a big deal, but in the diplomatic world, that's really a very sharp rap on the knuckles.

There are financial measures that could be taken, economic measures. They could strengthen sanctions against Syria.

But probably what is going to happen, Aaron, is that some of these measures may be put into place. But what is probably going to happen is is Syria is going to be pushed very, very hard to make a clean break with the past. And that will mean, ultimately, coming to terms with and dealing with Israel in reaching some kind of a political settlement with Israel. It will also mean giving up its covert chemical weapons program, which everyone but the Syrians seems to acknowledge exists. It will mean giving up its continuing support for those groups labeled as terrorist organizations which have found sponsorship here in Damascus, groups like Islamic Jihad, Hamas and of course, Hezbollah -- Aaron.

BROWN: Sheila, thank you. Sheila MacVicar, who is in Syria, which has rather quickly become the center of attention, or at least a center of attention, over the last few days.

We'll take a break. When we come back, the American POWs and their rescue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's remarkable to us that the pictures of those seven frightened American POWs from three weeks ago have been replaced with pictures of smiles and relief and gratitude, faces of freedom.

Got a better view of their trip out of Iraq to Kuwait yesterday courtesy of the Defense Department.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm better now, a lot better.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What rank are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a warrant officer. I'm a pilot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got shot down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

EDGAR HERNANDEZ, RESCUED POW: I'm happy that I'm going home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's that?

HERNANDEZ: I'm happy that I'm going home...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

HERNANDEZ: ... to see my family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

JOSEPH HUDSON, RESCUED POW: I love you all Marines! I love you all Marines!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: There's a formal process the POWs have to go through. It includes some counseling to help them manage the situation that they were in, but some expect to be back in the States perhaps by the end of the week.

Michele Williams is someone who understands, better than most of us do, the risks of war. She flies a Black Hawk helicopter. But when an Apache helicopter went down in Iraq and the crew was captured, Williams wasn't just concerned about a fellow pilot, she feared for the life of her husband. Her fear ended yesterday when Chief Warrant Officer David Williams was rescued.

CNN's Jamie Colby has the family story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHELLE WILLIAMS, WIFE OF FORMER POW: The first thing I want to say is to my husband. If you can see me, I want you to know that I love you and that I support you and I am so, so proud of you.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a great American love story. Michelle and David Williams met in flight school and now have two beautiful children, two-year-old Jason and six month old Madison (ph). Michelle says after her husband's capture, it became as great a challenge to be a soldier's spouse as it was to be a soldier. Michelle, a Black Hawk helicopter pilot, also with the 1st Calvary, had been advised her military status could be used against her husband and was ordered not to speak to the media.

WILLIAMS: It was hard at first because I was scared that my husband was going to be the only one not hearing from, you know, one of his immediate family members that -- and just to tell him how much I loved him and supported him.

COLBY: Now that he's free, she's broken her silence.

WILLIAMS: It was a little disheartening but now looking back it was -- it was the right decision absolutely.

COLBY: The couple's only spoken briefly and Michelle says she knows few details of his ordeal but though she admits David looks a little thin, she says he remains strong.

WILLIAMS: I always believed that this day would come. I've prayed for it and the good Lord has answered my prayers.

COLBY: Jamie Colby, CNN, Fort Hood, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll take a break. And when we continue, the Russian connection. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tuesday morning in Baghdad, and we'll see what the day brings. Will it bring a little more calm than has been there for the last four or five days? There are some signs it may, but a little more calm is not yet calm, not yet.

The vanished regime of Saddam Hussein left behind a traumatized people and a lot of problems to sort out and boxes and boxes of secrets, which reporters and others are now beginning to sift through.

We're joined in San Francisco tonight by Phil Bronstein, the Editor of the "San Francisco Chronicle." "The Chronicle" has done some terrific reporting here, digging into some of those newly discovered secrets and come up with a connection between Iraq and Russia.

Good to have you with us here. Basically, your story outlines that Russians training Iraqis in a variety of ways, and this really is just the beginning of your reporting in this.

PHIL BRONSTEIN, "SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE": Well, that's right, Aaron. Our reporter in Baghdad, Rob Collier, got access to these documents. They weren't in the main secret police, Iraqi secret police headquarters, which was severely damaged in the air bombing, but this is a four-story mansion in a very, very wealthy district of Baghdad. And was hit by a couple of missiles, apparently, that didn't explode, but it did get its share of looters and reporters going in there. And Rob was one of them.

And he found, among many other things, dossiers of Iraqi secret agents working for the spy agency who were trained in the -- in Russia, rather, as late as mid-September -- excuse me -- and got diploma. And the diplomas and their full dossiers were in this building.

So it's clear that despite U.N. sanctions, which essentially forbid that kind of relationship, that the Russians and the Iraqis under Saddam Hussein did have that kind of relationship.

BROWN: And the Russians are saying or have said what about this? Anything?

BRONSTEIN: Nothing. We've tried to contact them through a variety of means, official and unofficial. And they said nothing. The American government has told us that they have made representations, in fact, I think for some time, complaining about these kinds of relationships. And the Russians have also told the American government that they don't exist, but these documents are proof that in fact they have existed.

BROWN: There's no question that that's what the documents show in your view?

BRONSTEIN: Well, we were very careful about this. We had three translators, one in Baghdad and two in San Francisco, look over the documents, because of course there are the subtleties of translation.

In fact, there was another document that essentially was a handwritten note taken clearly by one of these agents, Iraqi agents, and it was a discussion about weapons of mass destruction and U.N. inspections. It seemed to have been notes that were taken prior to the inspection process. And essentially it was instructions that you should basically say nothing, that the agency, in fact, had presumably some kind of apparatus that they weren't supposed to have, whether it was a weapon or something else, based on U.N. sanctions and not to say anything about it.

We got so many different translations on that document that we decided not to run with it until we really had nailed it down. But the story about the dossiers and the Iraqi secret agents being trained in Russia was translated pretty much by three translators the exact same way, so we have a degree of confidence about it.

BROWN: The -- a little bit of the fifth, sixth, and seventh paragraphs, why would the Russians have this relationship with the Iraqis? Why was it in their interest or did they perceive it in their interest?

BRONSTEIN: Well you know, it's interesting because we like the idea of intrigue and some degree of duplicity and disassembling in our suspense movies and in our suspense spy novels, we don't really like it in real life that much. But in fact, these relationships are very complex. And I'm sure that we'll find out more about the sort of web, the intricate web of relationships that existed, not just with the Russians, but the Russians, of course, they had a huge military trade prior to 1991 with the Iraqis. There was a big debt that the Iraqis owed the Russians, and they were looking at some contracts for development of oil fields. So there were a variety of business relationships that existed.

BROWN: How did Rob know what he had?

BRONSTEIN: Well, he didn't really. I mean, he had -- he could see the pictures, he could see that they were dossiers. He knew that this was a building that had housed the surveillance operation of the Iraqi secret police. And so he took an educated guess that this was material that would be of interest. He really didn't know. He had a translator with him when he was there, so he knew a little bit there on the scene, thanks to the translator. But just being in that building and looking at these documents, which I believe he found in a closet in the back of the building, would suggest to him that these were something important.

BROWN: And just very briefly, do you expect more stories in this pipeline?

BRONSTEIN: He had hundreds of pages of documentation that he has had access to, and we are in the process of verifying those and interpreting those, so I am quite sure, Aaron, that we'll have quite a bit more as we go on in the coming days and weeks.

BROWN: Nicely done.

BRONSTEIN: Thank you.

BROWN: Phil Bronstein, the Executive Editor of the "San Francisco Chronicle." Nice piece of reporting by that newspaper on this.

We'll take a break, and the battle for peace in Iraq when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: You think of the challenges the U.S. had when going into the war, disarming Iraq of some of the most dangerous weapons man has ever created, at least in principle, hunting down and removing one of history's most brutal dictators, not much dispute there. Then we think of some of the other things the soldiers have on their plates tonight, stopping the looters, getting the power on, getting clean water in. It sounds a lot more mundane, but in the long run, achieving all those goals are key to winning the peace.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What next? SERMID AL-SARRAF, FUTURE OF IRAQ PROJECT: While they are welcoming the troops and they are savoring this moment of freedom and liberation, at some point they're going to want to have direct controlover their own affairs.

CROWLEY: In the pre-war months, post-war Iraq was the source of some disagreement between the president and the prime minister, great disagreement between the State Department and the Pentagon and the usual disagreement between the U.S. and the U.N., philosophical, bureaucratic struggles with little meaning where it matters.

RICK BARTON, STRATEGIC & INTL. STUDIES: All politics is local and so it very quickly it's are the schools working, are the teachers getting paid, where are the police because it sure would be nice to have somebody here, are they getting paid?

CROWLEY: Post-war Iraq will need food, water, medicine. It needs roads rebuilt and buildings repaired. It needs electricity. It needs phone service. And someone will have to clear away the remnants of war so that Iraqi children will grow old in the peace. And oh yes, they'll be needing a government, too.

It is an enormous, expensive, manpower intensive job. Reason enough, some experts believe, to move from military to civilian control as soon as possible.

BARTON: You need a global pool of talent. The U.N. has identified some of those people. You need the resources of people who don't want to come in through the United States military, such as a number of our allies. The U.S. doesn't really want to own this job. If you walk down the street, there are very few Americans who say yes, cut back on my local school because I'm ready to pay for that teacher in downtown Baghdad. So there's a burden sharing here.

CROWLEY: For now, the burden rests on the U.S., Britain and this man, retired General Jay Garner who will serve as Iraq's civil administrator. It's a big job, but Garner has dreams to match.

GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), U.S. IRAQ RECON. ADM.: This country has great vibrance to it and it has an educated population. It was the jewel of the Middle East at one time. It can be the jewel of the Middle East again.

CROWLEY: Garner and the U.S. team will take control of Iraq's most sensitive ministries, oil, intelligence, finance, but it is possible lower-level members of Saddam's Baath Party will be able to keep their ministry jobs.

AL-SARRAF: We need to distinguish between just those who are affiliated with the Baath Party and those who actually committed crimes in their positions.

CROWLEY: For almost a year, Sermid Al-Sarraf, a Muslim of Iraqi decent, has been part of a working group of Iraqi Americans and exiles putting together recommendations for the State Department on post- Saddam justice in Iraq. AL-SARRAF: We have to be realistic in Iraq that many people joined the Baath Party out of sheer survival. They were not able to keep their positions or they're not able to send their children to school had they not joined the Baath Party.

CROWLEY: The first order of business in post-war Iraq is order itself, the bailiwick of coalition forces. But there's a difference between tracking down Baath leaders, wiping out pockets of resistance, searching for weapons of mass destruction and street patrol.

BARTON: It's a difficult transition for a 23-year-old very well trained to fight a war to suddenly be kind of somebody who's responsible for hey, put that mattress back in that -- in that showroom. This is the arms and the training are not really appropriate. So we really have to have a lighter presence.

CROWLEY: It's not just a matter of training or suitability, it is also a matter of politics in a repressed society where trust is in shorter supply than water.

AL-SARRAF: There needs to be a legitimate Iraqi civilian authority that can come in and begin to reinstitute a police force that has changed its orientation from serving and protecting the regime to now serving and protecting the people.

CROWLEY: Time ultimately will be the difference between liberation and occupation, so the Bush administration wants an Iraqi face on reconstruction ASAP.

GARNER: All through Iraq you'll find -- you'll find the true leaders, true men and women who are leaders and courageous. They'll begin to stand up and they'll provide the leadership for the rest of their people.

CROWLEY: Until elections can be held, it would be an interim authority of newly freed and formerly exiled Iraqis, a simple concept with the permutations of a Rubik's Cube. A recent CIA study warned that in-country Iraqis will view exiles with skepticism. Sarraf does not disagree.

Al-SARRAF: In order to establish the legitimacy, it's important that the administration not even be viewed or even have the appearance of pushing forward any individual from the outside. I think that would be a fatal mistake.

CROWLEY: It is evident in so many places at so many levels for so many reasons that the cost of this war is immeasurable. How the peace is handled will determine if it was worth it.

BARTON: Modern wars have shown that to us that if you really want to get a measure of a war, the measure comes in how you win the peace. We know who's going to win most of these wars now and it's happening so can we actually leave an imprint there that's lasting, that shows that we've made a difference. And so for me the key issue here is do the sacrifices of war -- are the -- are the sacrifices of war matched by the investments of peace and that's our -- that's our test right now.

CROWLEY: Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A lot of work ahead.

Take a break. Update the day's headlines. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS ALERT)

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Aired April 14, 2003 - 23:33   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN HOST: No one knows for certain whether or not Iraqi figures have slipped into Syria as the administration has been alleging. There's no question that some things have gotten through to Damascus, American concerns among them.
CNN's Sheila MacVicar joins us now from Syria with more on that.

Sheila, good evening.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Aaron.

Indeed, American concerns are being held -- heard loud and clear here in Damascus after what might be called that triple whammy on Sunday. We had the president, the secretary of state, Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld, all of them speaking out about their concerns about Syria, all of them citing a different issue of concern.

In addition to that, Syria's young president, Bashar al-Assad, has had a stream of visitors through here, no Americans, at least not so far, but the French, British Foreign Office and the Saudi Foreign Minister yesterday. All of them emphasizing to Syria's president that there are serious questions and serious questions which Syria must take seriously. And when the time comes, Syria must fully cooperate.

Now this litany of allegations, as you said, this whole issue of Syria's covert chemical weapons program, its sale of military equipment to Iraq, perhaps its permission or permitting former members of Saddam Hussein's regime to find some form of shelter here in Syria, on all of these issues, Syria is so far taking a very firm line as we heard again from Syria's ambassador to the U.S.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROSTOM AL-ZOUBI, SYRIAN AMBASSADOR TO U.S.: All these accusations are baseless. We deny them. We don't have weapons of mass destruction. It is Israel who has the big arsenry (ph) of weapons of mass destruction. And we are wondering, not only me, the whole Arab region, the whole Arab people are asking, why to focus on Syria this time and forgetting everything about Israel? This is -- they understand it as a double standard.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACVICAR: Now, we've obviously heard from the U.K.'s Foreign Secretary Jack Straw yesterday who has said repeatedly there is no list. Syria is not on a list. Syria is not next. But obviously, standing in Damascus and looking at what has happened in Iraq, one couldn't help thinking that perhaps there were designs. Designs to at least change things here, perhaps not in the same way, but certainly a desire to make clear that the future will look a lot different than it does now -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. What are the options for the American government? If the American government is not planning on waging war with Syria, what is the leverage?

MACVICAR: There are a number of different things, political, diplomatic, economic, financial. On the diplomatic front, for example, they could withdraw the U.S. ambassador from Damascus. That would send a very strong signal, but it would obviously reduce the dialogue that the United States is able to have with Syria at what is clearly becoming a more sensitive time.

They could say restrict Syrian diplomats to 25 miles of Washington. That doesn't sound like a big deal, but in the diplomatic world, that's really a very sharp rap on the knuckles.

There are financial measures that could be taken, economic measures. They could strengthen sanctions against Syria.

But probably what is going to happen, Aaron, is that some of these measures may be put into place. But what is probably going to happen is is Syria is going to be pushed very, very hard to make a clean break with the past. And that will mean, ultimately, coming to terms with and dealing with Israel in reaching some kind of a political settlement with Israel. It will also mean giving up its covert chemical weapons program, which everyone but the Syrians seems to acknowledge exists. It will mean giving up its continuing support for those groups labeled as terrorist organizations which have found sponsorship here in Damascus, groups like Islamic Jihad, Hamas and of course, Hezbollah -- Aaron.

BROWN: Sheila, thank you. Sheila MacVicar, who is in Syria, which has rather quickly become the center of attention, or at least a center of attention, over the last few days.

We'll take a break. When we come back, the American POWs and their rescue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's remarkable to us that the pictures of those seven frightened American POWs from three weeks ago have been replaced with pictures of smiles and relief and gratitude, faces of freedom.

Got a better view of their trip out of Iraq to Kuwait yesterday courtesy of the Defense Department.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm better now, a lot better.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How you doing?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What rank are you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm a warrant officer. I'm a pilot.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I got shot down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

EDGAR HERNANDEZ, RESCUED POW: I'm happy that I'm going home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's that?

HERNANDEZ: I'm happy that I'm going home...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

HERNANDEZ: ... to see my family.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

JOSEPH HUDSON, RESCUED POW: I love you all Marines! I love you all Marines!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: There's a formal process the POWs have to go through. It includes some counseling to help them manage the situation that they were in, but some expect to be back in the States perhaps by the end of the week.

Michele Williams is someone who understands, better than most of us do, the risks of war. She flies a Black Hawk helicopter. But when an Apache helicopter went down in Iraq and the crew was captured, Williams wasn't just concerned about a fellow pilot, she feared for the life of her husband. Her fear ended yesterday when Chief Warrant Officer David Williams was rescued.

CNN's Jamie Colby has the family story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHELLE WILLIAMS, WIFE OF FORMER POW: The first thing I want to say is to my husband. If you can see me, I want you to know that I love you and that I support you and I am so, so proud of you.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's a great American love story. Michelle and David Williams met in flight school and now have two beautiful children, two-year-old Jason and six month old Madison (ph). Michelle says after her husband's capture, it became as great a challenge to be a soldier's spouse as it was to be a soldier. Michelle, a Black Hawk helicopter pilot, also with the 1st Calvary, had been advised her military status could be used against her husband and was ordered not to speak to the media.

WILLIAMS: It was hard at first because I was scared that my husband was going to be the only one not hearing from, you know, one of his immediate family members that -- and just to tell him how much I loved him and supported him.

COLBY: Now that he's free, she's broken her silence.

WILLIAMS: It was a little disheartening but now looking back it was -- it was the right decision absolutely.

COLBY: The couple's only spoken briefly and Michelle says she knows few details of his ordeal but though she admits David looks a little thin, she says he remains strong.

WILLIAMS: I always believed that this day would come. I've prayed for it and the good Lord has answered my prayers.

COLBY: Jamie Colby, CNN, Fort Hood, Texas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll take a break. And when we continue, the Russian connection. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tuesday morning in Baghdad, and we'll see what the day brings. Will it bring a little more calm than has been there for the last four or five days? There are some signs it may, but a little more calm is not yet calm, not yet.

The vanished regime of Saddam Hussein left behind a traumatized people and a lot of problems to sort out and boxes and boxes of secrets, which reporters and others are now beginning to sift through.

We're joined in San Francisco tonight by Phil Bronstein, the Editor of the "San Francisco Chronicle." "The Chronicle" has done some terrific reporting here, digging into some of those newly discovered secrets and come up with a connection between Iraq and Russia.

Good to have you with us here. Basically, your story outlines that Russians training Iraqis in a variety of ways, and this really is just the beginning of your reporting in this.

PHIL BRONSTEIN, "SAN FRANCISCO CHRONICLE": Well, that's right, Aaron. Our reporter in Baghdad, Rob Collier, got access to these documents. They weren't in the main secret police, Iraqi secret police headquarters, which was severely damaged in the air bombing, but this is a four-story mansion in a very, very wealthy district of Baghdad. And was hit by a couple of missiles, apparently, that didn't explode, but it did get its share of looters and reporters going in there. And Rob was one of them.

And he found, among many other things, dossiers of Iraqi secret agents working for the spy agency who were trained in the -- in Russia, rather, as late as mid-September -- excuse me -- and got diploma. And the diplomas and their full dossiers were in this building.

So it's clear that despite U.N. sanctions, which essentially forbid that kind of relationship, that the Russians and the Iraqis under Saddam Hussein did have that kind of relationship.

BROWN: And the Russians are saying or have said what about this? Anything?

BRONSTEIN: Nothing. We've tried to contact them through a variety of means, official and unofficial. And they said nothing. The American government has told us that they have made representations, in fact, I think for some time, complaining about these kinds of relationships. And the Russians have also told the American government that they don't exist, but these documents are proof that in fact they have existed.

BROWN: There's no question that that's what the documents show in your view?

BRONSTEIN: Well, we were very careful about this. We had three translators, one in Baghdad and two in San Francisco, look over the documents, because of course there are the subtleties of translation.

In fact, there was another document that essentially was a handwritten note taken clearly by one of these agents, Iraqi agents, and it was a discussion about weapons of mass destruction and U.N. inspections. It seemed to have been notes that were taken prior to the inspection process. And essentially it was instructions that you should basically say nothing, that the agency, in fact, had presumably some kind of apparatus that they weren't supposed to have, whether it was a weapon or something else, based on U.N. sanctions and not to say anything about it.

We got so many different translations on that document that we decided not to run with it until we really had nailed it down. But the story about the dossiers and the Iraqi secret agents being trained in Russia was translated pretty much by three translators the exact same way, so we have a degree of confidence about it.

BROWN: The -- a little bit of the fifth, sixth, and seventh paragraphs, why would the Russians have this relationship with the Iraqis? Why was it in their interest or did they perceive it in their interest?

BRONSTEIN: Well you know, it's interesting because we like the idea of intrigue and some degree of duplicity and disassembling in our suspense movies and in our suspense spy novels, we don't really like it in real life that much. But in fact, these relationships are very complex. And I'm sure that we'll find out more about the sort of web, the intricate web of relationships that existed, not just with the Russians, but the Russians, of course, they had a huge military trade prior to 1991 with the Iraqis. There was a big debt that the Iraqis owed the Russians, and they were looking at some contracts for development of oil fields. So there were a variety of business relationships that existed.

BROWN: How did Rob know what he had?

BRONSTEIN: Well, he didn't really. I mean, he had -- he could see the pictures, he could see that they were dossiers. He knew that this was a building that had housed the surveillance operation of the Iraqi secret police. And so he took an educated guess that this was material that would be of interest. He really didn't know. He had a translator with him when he was there, so he knew a little bit there on the scene, thanks to the translator. But just being in that building and looking at these documents, which I believe he found in a closet in the back of the building, would suggest to him that these were something important.

BROWN: And just very briefly, do you expect more stories in this pipeline?

BRONSTEIN: He had hundreds of pages of documentation that he has had access to, and we are in the process of verifying those and interpreting those, so I am quite sure, Aaron, that we'll have quite a bit more as we go on in the coming days and weeks.

BROWN: Nicely done.

BRONSTEIN: Thank you.

BROWN: Phil Bronstein, the Executive Editor of the "San Francisco Chronicle." Nice piece of reporting by that newspaper on this.

We'll take a break, and the battle for peace in Iraq when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: You think of the challenges the U.S. had when going into the war, disarming Iraq of some of the most dangerous weapons man has ever created, at least in principle, hunting down and removing one of history's most brutal dictators, not much dispute there. Then we think of some of the other things the soldiers have on their plates tonight, stopping the looters, getting the power on, getting clean water in. It sounds a lot more mundane, but in the long run, achieving all those goals are key to winning the peace.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What next? SERMID AL-SARRAF, FUTURE OF IRAQ PROJECT: While they are welcoming the troops and they are savoring this moment of freedom and liberation, at some point they're going to want to have direct controlover their own affairs.

CROWLEY: In the pre-war months, post-war Iraq was the source of some disagreement between the president and the prime minister, great disagreement between the State Department and the Pentagon and the usual disagreement between the U.S. and the U.N., philosophical, bureaucratic struggles with little meaning where it matters.

RICK BARTON, STRATEGIC & INTL. STUDIES: All politics is local and so it very quickly it's are the schools working, are the teachers getting paid, where are the police because it sure would be nice to have somebody here, are they getting paid?

CROWLEY: Post-war Iraq will need food, water, medicine. It needs roads rebuilt and buildings repaired. It needs electricity. It needs phone service. And someone will have to clear away the remnants of war so that Iraqi children will grow old in the peace. And oh yes, they'll be needing a government, too.

It is an enormous, expensive, manpower intensive job. Reason enough, some experts believe, to move from military to civilian control as soon as possible.

BARTON: You need a global pool of talent. The U.N. has identified some of those people. You need the resources of people who don't want to come in through the United States military, such as a number of our allies. The U.S. doesn't really want to own this job. If you walk down the street, there are very few Americans who say yes, cut back on my local school because I'm ready to pay for that teacher in downtown Baghdad. So there's a burden sharing here.

CROWLEY: For now, the burden rests on the U.S., Britain and this man, retired General Jay Garner who will serve as Iraq's civil administrator. It's a big job, but Garner has dreams to match.

GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), U.S. IRAQ RECON. ADM.: This country has great vibrance to it and it has an educated population. It was the jewel of the Middle East at one time. It can be the jewel of the Middle East again.

CROWLEY: Garner and the U.S. team will take control of Iraq's most sensitive ministries, oil, intelligence, finance, but it is possible lower-level members of Saddam's Baath Party will be able to keep their ministry jobs.

AL-SARRAF: We need to distinguish between just those who are affiliated with the Baath Party and those who actually committed crimes in their positions.

CROWLEY: For almost a year, Sermid Al-Sarraf, a Muslim of Iraqi decent, has been part of a working group of Iraqi Americans and exiles putting together recommendations for the State Department on post- Saddam justice in Iraq. AL-SARRAF: We have to be realistic in Iraq that many people joined the Baath Party out of sheer survival. They were not able to keep their positions or they're not able to send their children to school had they not joined the Baath Party.

CROWLEY: The first order of business in post-war Iraq is order itself, the bailiwick of coalition forces. But there's a difference between tracking down Baath leaders, wiping out pockets of resistance, searching for weapons of mass destruction and street patrol.

BARTON: It's a difficult transition for a 23-year-old very well trained to fight a war to suddenly be kind of somebody who's responsible for hey, put that mattress back in that -- in that showroom. This is the arms and the training are not really appropriate. So we really have to have a lighter presence.

CROWLEY: It's not just a matter of training or suitability, it is also a matter of politics in a repressed society where trust is in shorter supply than water.

AL-SARRAF: There needs to be a legitimate Iraqi civilian authority that can come in and begin to reinstitute a police force that has changed its orientation from serving and protecting the regime to now serving and protecting the people.

CROWLEY: Time ultimately will be the difference between liberation and occupation, so the Bush administration wants an Iraqi face on reconstruction ASAP.

GARNER: All through Iraq you'll find -- you'll find the true leaders, true men and women who are leaders and courageous. They'll begin to stand up and they'll provide the leadership for the rest of their people.

CROWLEY: Until elections can be held, it would be an interim authority of newly freed and formerly exiled Iraqis, a simple concept with the permutations of a Rubik's Cube. A recent CIA study warned that in-country Iraqis will view exiles with skepticism. Sarraf does not disagree.

Al-SARRAF: In order to establish the legitimacy, it's important that the administration not even be viewed or even have the appearance of pushing forward any individual from the outside. I think that would be a fatal mistake.

CROWLEY: It is evident in so many places at so many levels for so many reasons that the cost of this war is immeasurable. How the peace is handled will determine if it was worth it.

BARTON: Modern wars have shown that to us that if you really want to get a measure of a war, the measure comes in how you win the peace. We know who's going to win most of these wars now and it's happening so can we actually leave an imprint there that's lasting, that shows that we've made a difference. And so for me the key issue here is do the sacrifices of war -- are the -- are the sacrifices of war matched by the investments of peace and that's our -- that's our test right now.

CROWLEY: Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

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BROWN: A lot of work ahead.

Take a break. Update the day's headlines. Our coverage continues in a moment.

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