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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

War Has Taken a Back Seat to Winning Order in Iraq

Aired April 15, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again from New York. Tonight, the headline is what the headline isn't. It isn't the war, but what comes next instead.
Today, in what was once the cradle of civilization, the job of bringing a new Iraq into the world began. Somehow from the hopes and fears and dreams of 25 million people, a government will eventually emerge. Taking all those factors into account is neither simple nor easy, and certainly will not be quick. But if today is any indication, it won't be perfect either. But it is where we begin, with "The Big Picture" tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Under an enormous white tent in the desert, not far from the Biblical city of Ur, Iraqi opposition leaders met under American authority to begin charting a course for the future, a new government. No important leaders inside, nearly everyone sent deputies, but it was a start.

A start too, for protests that undoubtedly would not have been allowed under the regime of Saddam Hussein. These are Shiites, protesting that only a few of their representatives had been invited. Signs conveniently in both Arabic and English.

Sunnis protested too, fearing that as a minority, they'll be left out of significant power. To the Pentagon, it was seeing the glass half full.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: This much is certain, it will be temporary. It will be large, involving Iraqis from all walks of life, and it will be open to participation by new leaders from across the country as they emerge from the shadow of Saddam Hussein's repression.

BROWN: There was a firefight in the northern city of Mosul, Americans exchanging gunfire in the middle of the town. Several Iraqis dead. But significant combat across Iraq has come to an end. Tikrit seemed fully under coalition control, and the Bush administration once again took pains to remind Syria that the times and the geopolitics have changed.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We hope that Syria understand now that there is a new environment in the region with the end of the regime of Saddam Hussein, and that Syria will reconsider its policies of past years, and understand that there are better choices it can make than the choices it has made in the past.

BROWN: In Baghdad, a few more police on the streets. Marines went out on foot patrols as well. But fires still burned in some government building and looters still strolled down smoke-filled avenues with bravado.

Other Marine units found tons of additional weapons. These crates of weapons had labels indicating they'd come from both Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Reporters could see a truck-mounted anti-aircraft gun in a playground and anti-tank shell on the floor of a hospital. Some of the weapons will be destroyed, the military says. Others kept for a new Iraqi army.

MYAD SAID AL DAMERJI, PROFESSOR, BAGHDAD UNIV.: It was one of the most important and is still one of the most important museums that reveals the whole history of mankind from 500,000 B.C. to now.

BROWN: Fresh pictures from the Iraqi National Museum. Pottery smashed, statues badly damaged, even some documents stolen. Suspicion that the plunder, at least some of it, was orchestrated. An inside job by some former employees is the inference. The Pentagon says rewards are being offered for the safe return of some of the artifacts.

CWO MONTE GONZALES, ARMY MOBILE EXPLOITATION TEAM: Based on what we have seen here, all of these containers are full of millions of dollars worth of very high-tech equipment, but it appears that everything inside of there, while it is possible that it has a dual use, it appears to be used for the future construction of additional conventional munitions production on this site.

BROWN: And about those underground containers found in the desert south of Baghdad, the military today said they are not a chemical weapons factory. No smoking gun so far as weapons of mass destruction.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the big picture tonight. We'll spend the next two hours, yes, only two hours, looking at all the smaller pictures that make up the big piece. We begin here. Work and shake things loose, and today it shook loose a fugitive. American forces captured a Palestinian terrorist who has been on the run ever since a notorious hijacking and murder nearly 18 years ago. Our national security correspondent David Ensor has more from Washington tonight. David, good evening.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. The U.S. has been trying to get its hands on this man for nearly 20 years now. For nearly half of that time, he's been in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): CNN was the first to report that Abu Abbas, a wanted terrorist since 1985, was captured by U.S. Special Forces Monday night in a compound on the southern outskirts of Baghdad, acting on a tip from U.S. intelligence. Abu Abbas, the nom de guerre of Mohammed Abbas, was taken along with several others, U.S. officials say, and documents and passports.

The fact that Saddam Hussein's government gave him sanctuary was cited recently by President Bush as evidence of Baghdad's ties to terrorists.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Iraq has also provided safe haven to Abu Abbas, who was responsible for seizing the Achille Lauro and killing an American passenger.

ENSOR: Leon Klinghoffer, seen here with his wife, was a wheelchair-bound disabled tourist in 1985 when the Palestine Liberation Front leader Abu Abbas ordered the Jewish American shot in full view of his wife, and then his wheelchair pushed overboard off the deck of the Italian cruise ship the Achille Lauro, which the terrorists had just seized.

Abbas was found guilty of murder by an Italian court. U.S. officials say there is no decision yet on his fate. Piracy and conspiracy charges in the U.S. have expired, but could be refiled, officials say. In the years since 1985, Abbas has lived in various times in Tunisia, Libya and the Gaza Strip before settling in Iraq. In a 1996 interview with CNN, he said they never intended to kill anybody.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABU ABBAS (through translator): The media didn't tell the world that Abu Abbas saved the lives of 600 passengers, only that a disabled man was killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: U.S. officials say they hope this capture will send a message to potential terrorists around the world. No matter how long it takes, the U.S. will get them in the end -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, that's one they got. There was also some speculation today about an Iraqi who may have gotten away. High ranking intelligence officer. What do you know on that?

ENSOR: His name is Farouk Hijazi. He is currently the ambassador to Tunisia of Iraq. And he traveled from Tunis to Damascus according to U.S. officials I've spoken to.

Now, he is suspected by the United States of having been involved in the unsuccessful plot to kill President George Bush, Sr. in Kuwait. He's also, there are reports, unconfirmed reports, that he may have met in the past with one or more senior al Qaeda leaders. So this is a man the U.S. would really like to get its hands on, and as I say, there are some U.S. officials who are fairly angry at Syria for at least so far harboring him -- Aaron. BROWN: He has diplomatic protection or not?

ENSOR: He has some diplomatic protection in the sense that he is an accredited diplomat, credited to Tunisia, and he has an international diplomat's passports. So lawyers in this country and elsewhere are going back to the books to see under what procedures Syria could be obliged to send him out of the country. It's a complicated legal issue everyone's looking at tonight.

BROWN: David, thank you. David Ensor, who covers national security matters for us. Back now to the other main story line of the night, the big opposition meeting today, what was said, what got done, who was there, and notably, who stayed away. It took place just outside of Nasiriyah. CNN's John Vause joins us now for more on the meeting. John, good evening to you.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. Well, those groups, they gathered just outside Nasiriyah, although ethnic and religious leaders representing Iraqis who have been denied a role in their government, in the destiny of their country for more than three decades. It was an historic meeting. They talked and talked and agreed to talk some more.

They came away with a 13-point plan. Among most notable, that Iraq should be a free, democratic and federal system. They should be respect for women. Also, the Baath Party should be dissolved. The United States, which is sponsoring these talks and many other talks around the country, says it has no intention of staying. It made that clear at that meeting today. But already at this historic occasion, problems are beginning to emerge; deep divisions are now showing within this country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE (voice-over): On the streets of Nasiriyah, rumor and half- truths were enough to bring out thousands in protests. The Shiites, they said, were being deliberately ignored. Their concerns going unheard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iraq's for Iraqis. My oil is for my people.

VAUSE: True, some Shiite groups were not represented at this, the first of many town meetings, but the U.S. says only because those Shiites decided to boycott. Some did, in fact, turn up. And there were rumors, like the one this protest organizer told me.

"The Americans came for the oil," he said. "Already a pipeline has been cleared from Kirkuk to Israel."

Everywhere here there are deep divisions and mistrust of American intentions.

The local imam told me, "we do not trust them when they say they will install an Iraqi leader," he says. "Iraqis can control their own affairs." But for others, like Brezam Sual (ph), the only thing that really matters right now is safety for his family. "It doesn't matter the Americans come or go," he says. "I need peace. I need security." Their home was badly damaged when a coalition air strike hit the Baath Party headquarters across the street, and then the looters moved in and took everything out.

Politics, it seems, doesn't mean much when all you have left is an old, small side table to sit on.

Still, at one of Nasiriyah's many barber shops, the talk was about that meeting just a few miles down the road. I asked Jabbar (ph) about Ahmad Chalabi, the leader of the exiled National Congress. He's seen him once, he says.

"We want one Iraq," he says, "not divided. One Iraq for all people." It's a simple idea, but sometimes the simplest things can be the hardest.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Now, Aaron, the plan now for this particular group, which met here just outside Nasiriyah, they will meet again in 10 days, and they will put together at that meeting, they hope, concrete proposals to govern Iraq in a post-Saddam Hussein era. Now, there will be more big tent meetings across Iraq. They are called listening meetings, and from that, they will hold one national meeting, and the United States hopes from that national meeting, an Iraqi interim authority will be established as soon as possible -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. John Vause outside Nasiriyah. To Baghdad next, where, again today, police officers tried to find their footing and American forces did what they could to get a better grip on things. It made for some strange moments, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) interlude or two, and a lot more encounters between Iraqis and Americans on the street. CNN's Nic Robertson has the duty tonight. Back with us, Nic. Good to see you.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, Aaron. Well, certainly the efforts by the U.S. Marines here in Baghdad to work with the police force, the former Saddam Hussein police force here does appear to be beginning to pay off. It does appear to be encouraging and fostering a situation where at least some businessmen are feeling encouraged enough to restart their businesses.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): With a smile and a blast at Saddam, Mohammed reopens his bookstore. Neighbors quick to point out, he's not a looter. After a month's closure, dust thick on the shelves he prudently emptied before he left. Gone so long, the clock stopped, but now he says, it's time to restart his business.

"Today it's safer," he says. "I didn't hear any tank shells or bullets." Next door, Mohammed the grocer is back at work. Candy and soda all he can offer for now. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are free. Anytime. But when the night is coming, we are closing. And I don't know the next day. I see my shop, my shop safe or broke (ph)?

ROBERTSON: At a bakery, war didn't stop Abu Ahmed (ph) working, but now he says, making bread is getting harder. "It's very difficult to do our jobs. We have a shortage of everything," he says. "Electricity, flour, fuel, water, even soap."

At the counter, customers wait patiently. But seeing us, many vent pent-up anger, the lack of electricity and security.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish -- I am nothing now. I wish that I have no mind to think that my country -- I love my country. Who can help me to feel that my country is still there?

ROBERTSON (on camera): Most stores here remain locked up and shuttered. Many businessmen, it seems, still feel it's too dangerous to open up just yet. The situation is still far from normal.

(voice-over): Increasing their efforts to restore that normality. U.S. Marines are now patrolling some Baghdad streets on foot. A more visible presence designed to help reduce looting, but unlike British forces in the south, these U.S. Marines still in full combat gear.

To help restore water and other much-needed services, Marines have been meeting with city planners and engineers. The shift away from fighting the war apparently not stopping the thinly-spread U.S. force from its original mission. This day, another weapons cache discovered by the Marines in the center of the capital.

Possibly, however, the long day's taking their toll. This Marine snatches a quick nap in a chair at Saddam's wife's palace. Most in the city, though, would likely prefer the Marines weren't this stretched and there were enough to get the job done quickly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And perhaps what cannot be underestimated here or perhaps shouldn't be underestimated here, the level of frustration and anger, Aaron. When we go out on the streets and take time to listen to people, the thing they want to keep telling us is, they want that security and they really want to get the electricity switched back on in the city very quickly. And they say they cannot understand why it's taking so long -- Aaron.

BROWN: And why is it taking so long?

ROBERTSON: That's a very good question. When one of our correspondents went out to the power plant, just three days ago, the city engineers there said with eight hours and 30 men, they could have the power station up and running again. One thing that people on the street have told us is, they feel the looters may have gone to some of the smaller electricity distribution sites and looted some of the equipment there. Certainly we are seeing the Marines and the Army here giving their support to the Iraqi engineers at this time to try to get the electricity turned back on. But the Iraqi people look at the U.S. forces and blame them. They don't blame their own engineers at this time, Aaron. So it's something that is a critical issue that needs to be addressed, if only from a perception point of view.

BROWN: And just one more, Nic, to put things in some context. Actually, I asked you this question one day last week. Is Baghdad today a safer city than Baghdad was four days ago?

ROBERTSON: Yes. Categorically, absolutely, it is safer. There are some areas like that large suburb, a very poor suburb used to be called Saddam City. It is being renamed. We're not sure what the name's going to be. But that area is still relatively lawless. The hospital there is controlled by Shia clerics and armed gunmen. The rest of the city, there are still sporadic gun battles going on, but the rest of Baghdad, even the last two nights, those sporadic gun battles we've heard, very much subsided. The city definitely a safer place than four days ago -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson in Baghdad.

And we're joined again tonight by retired General Wesley Clark. General joins us from Washington. General, I had the feeling watching the reaction to the meeting, the demonstrations today in Iraq that we may soon long for the days when the biggest problem was looting.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Aaron, I think that it's early yet in this. And there is going to be disarming. The question is where it goes from here? It's a question of, can this culture, can these different cultures there settle their disputes through dialogue, through reason, and with some help from mediation, or is there going to be a lot of underhanded assassination, bomb setting, intimidation by outside powers and so forth that will completely disrupt Jay Garner's efforts at the political process. And it's, I think, it's too early to be able to say that right now. We'll just have to work it.

BROWN: At what point can the United States Army, or the United States government say, this is not acceptable. For example, if the Iraqis decide that what they want a fundamentalist theocracy, acceptable to the United States if that's what they choose?

CLARK: That's a really tough policy call, and obviously the United States is going to do everything it can to prevent that emerging. It's only normal. But if it happens, then I think we're going to have a hard time arguing against it, provided that we get some pledges from that government not to support terrorism, not to rebuild a weapons of mass destruction program, and provided we feel the government is secured from its neighbors.

BROWN: That is not some wild notion. That's not out of the question. We know just seeing in a small way looking at Kuwait when, after the first Gulf War, that the best organized political parties in Kuwait were fundamentalist Islamic parties, and they in fact gained seats in the parliament. So it's not out of the question that the Shia majority might want a theocracy. CLARK: It's not at all, and if it comes about through democracy, it's going to be hard for the United States to declare it illegitimate. And Aaron, this is one of the concerns that many of us have had when we've excluded the U.N. from a role like this. It would have been far easier for the United Nations to come in and say look, there has to be protection for minorities. This has to be done and this has to be done and so forth. For the United States to do that overtly is much more difficult.

BROWN: On the military side, anything there that you see today or in the last 24 hours that got your attention?

CLARK: I think the operations is rolling to a complete conclusion, and the thing that impressed me most is the movement of the 4th Infantry Division in and the heavy forces that have now moved into Baghdad in a further effort to be able to put the presence on the ground, to intimidate would-be looters, to be able to interact with the people and to be able to get that power plant operating again, and taking care of the humanitarian issues that may emerge there.

So I think the forces on the ground are moving ahead, about as constructively and about as rapidly as can be expected. There is going to be impatience with the pace of the restoration of services. That's inevitable. But I just wondered when that report came about, the 30 Iraqis in eight hours, clear word those 30 Iraqis, because the United States did not bomb those facilities deliberately, withheld it so that they could be put back in order. So I am sure on the ground, there are commanders there are asking the same question, produce those 30 Iraqis, let's get the power on.

BROWN: General, we'll talk to you again before the night is done. It's good to have you with us again. Coming up next, President Bush was out today talking about domestic policy, talking about the economy, talking about his tax cut. Politics is in the air again. David Gergen joins us after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We touched on Syria a moment ago. The news seeming to flesh out the Bush administration's bill of indictment. It remains to be seen how this will affect the administration's position, which until this got out earlier tonight, seemed to be softening ever so slightly. Here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One day after a chorus of Bush administration officials threatened the regime of Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad, Secretary of State Powell appeared before foreign journalists to play down any suggestions Syria was next on the U.N. hit list.

POWELL: But there is no list. There is no war plan right now to go and attack somewhere else, either for the purpose of overthrowing their leadership, or for the purpose of imposing democratic values. KOPPEL: No war plan right now, but still a softer message than Monday, when Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld refused to rule out Syria as a target.

QUESTION: Should Syria understand that one of the potential consequences of their actions that you're talking about today is military action by the United States?

RUMSFELD: I didn't say anything like that.

QUESTION: But could you respond to that, though? Is that something that they should consider as a potential...

RUMSFELD: I think what -- what -- I've said I've said, and I've stated facts, and that's what I tend to do. In terms of policy, that's for others.

KOPPEL: Tuesday, Rumsfeld demurred.

RUMSFELD: The president's spoken on it, Secretary Powell's spoken on it, I'll leave that to them.

BUSH: And there's no doubt we're going to meet those priorities.

KOPPEL: President Bush has not spelled out potential consequences for the Syrian regime, but Powell repeated U.S. warnings to Syria not to harbor Iraqi war criminals, to end its alleged chemical weapons program and support for terrorists. The U.S. also believes Iraqi chemical and biological weapons may have been moved into Syria for safe keeping.

POWELL: We hope that Syria understands now that there is a new environment in the region with the end of the regime of Saddam Hussein. And that Syria will reconsider its policies of past years.

KOPPEL (on camera): At the moment, the Bush administration's policy seems to be to try to use its victory in Iraq to scare Syria into cooperating without closing the door on possible military action. As one senior administration official put it, the U.S. has no intention of using force against Syria unless, quote, "Syria does something really stupid and fires on American troops."

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The president at the White House today was talking about his tax cut, the economy and jobs, a reminder that the war has faded a bit from the headlines, and that a presidential election is just a year plus away. David Gergen joins us. Mr. Gergen has been an adviser to presidents and we're often honored to have his company.

DAVID GERGEN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Nice to see you.

GERGEN: Nice to see you again, first.

BROWN: The danger for the president, even with big approval ratings, is a very sloppy economy right now. It's that simple, right?

GERGEN: Absolutely. And everybody in the White House, starting with Karl Rove, his chief political adviser, and some might think his economic adviser, remembers what happened to his father. Yes, he was at 88 percent approval rating after the Persian Gulf War, and over 18 months, he dropped 50 points, 60 points in the polls and was defeated by Bill Clinton. So they don't want to repeat that for starters.

BROWN: Last week, because of a couple of recalcitrant Republicans in the Senate, the president's tax cut was cut in half. That's at least if you buy the Senate's view, that's the best he is going to get out of it. Here's a president riding at 71 percent popularity and he can't push through that with the majority in the Senate. What does that tell you?

GERGEN: Well, he pushes -- pushed through this huge tax cut at the beginning of his term, as you know, over $1 trillion, and since that time, we have lost jobs, the economy hasn't really improved, and so there are a lot of Americans who are bucking him, even as they support the president, salute him for his job on the war. The polls show that some 60 percent right now oppose more tax cuts until we know what the costs of the war are and know how high these deficits are going to go.

And very importantly, Aaron, the two Republicans who have been sort of opposing him in the Senate, Senator Snowe of Maine, Senator Voinovich of Ohio, they've been joined by Senator Grassley, who is Republican chair of the Finance Committee, who has pledged to block a tax cut bigger than 350, and the president is saying I want 550. So as Ari Fleischer, the press secretary, said today, it's going to be a big fight, it's an uphill fight for the president.

BROWN: I want to get to the Democrats.

GERGEN: Sure.

BROWN: But just one question on this. Does the president in your political view, have to win on the tax cut or just fight it out?

GERGEN: That's a wonderful question, because, in fact, I think what they're trying to do is put themselves in a position, if the economy comes back on its own, everybody is going to forget this fight. But if the economy does not come back and he's going to go out there and fought for this and lost, he then has an argument why the economy hasn't come back. It helps him in that sense. But it also, by moving the focus back to domestic, which he is now doing, it finally gets the arguments back on where the Democrats want to fight, which is on the economy. It gives them a chance to finally find their voice. They have been mute, they have been just supined during much of this war, but they now will have a chance to start speaking up again.

BROWN: All right, 90 seconds on them. Is there, from this varied Democratic candidates (UNINTELLIGIBLE), is there yet a coherent message on the economy for me?

GERGEN: No, there is not. And Bill Clinton was here in New York today speaking to a group, and he made the argument, the single most important thing that the Democrats have to do is not find a candidate but find a message. And right now they don't.

What they do need to do is first of all, find a candidate who is good on national security so that people are willing to listen to them on the economy. It's striking to me, Aaron, that in recent days, how many people come up to me and say, what about Wes Clark? We have been watching him right here on your network. Do you think he, as a former general, can he do it?

Of course, there are others out there who are already on the field. But they have not yet find a message -- but they have the makings of the message, Aaron, in the few seconds we have left. They can argue, look, we have won the war, but look what's happening in the economy. Over two million jobs have been lost. The stock market's down over 20 percent. And the surplus that was seemed to be going forever has now turned into at least a $400 billion deficit, maybe higher. But they have the makings of a message.

BROWN: Absent selling the country that they are tougher on national security, this, to me I think the rest of this stuff is a nonstarter for the country.

GERGEN: What do you mean, what's a nonstarter?

BROWN: Unless a Democratic candidate can convince the country that he or she is strong on national security, then the rest of it doesn't matter.

GERGEN: I agree. That's the threshold test. Will the country be safe in your hands? And then I am willing to listen to you on the rest.

BROWN: David, thank you, it's good to see you.

GERGEN: It's good to see you too.

BROWN: Good to see you in person. Thank you, David Gergen, with us.

Still ahead in the next half-hour, the Iraqi chemical lab that wasn't. Why the threat level in the country may be reduced. That after a break, and we'll have the latest headlines too. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This is a story about something that didn't happen. That something is a terror attack, a big concern going into the war, big enough that the government raised the threat level to orange. Now the government is talking about when to lower it. And part of that is trying to figure out why there was no attack in the first place. Was it better security, good luck, or bad intelligence to begin with? Here's CNN Justice Department correspondent Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the outbreak of war came a series of warnings and a rise in the nation's threat level. Would Saddam Hussein send Iraqi terrorists to retaliate? Would al Qaeda take advantage of the situation and once again attack on U.S. soil?

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There was intelligence that indicated that an elevated and escalated military presence by the United States and escalated activity in Iraq might occasion additional activity by terrorists.

ARENA: Obviously, there hasn't been an attack. The man in charge of homeland security offers this explanation.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Being on alert, being aware, being empowered with this information we think is a deterrent factor.

ARENA: But it's hard to prove a negative. Counterterrorism officials concede, we may never know whether increased security thwarted a planned attack.

But there is other concrete evidence of success against al Qaeda: the capture of key operatives, most notably Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. And along with those operatives came nearly six million documents loaded with intelligence leads.

TERRANCE GAINER, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE CHIEF: We still know that the terrorists would like to take another bite of the Capitol or the White House, Washington in general.

ARENA: The most recent audiotape believed to be from Osama bin Laden urging suicide attacks underscores al Qaeda's resolve.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It's clear to everybody that America, this mighty aggressor, can be defeated, can be destroyed and can be humiliated.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

ARENA: What's more, as tensions in the Middle East escalate, there is growing concern about the Lebanon-based terrorist group Hezbollah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next to al Qaeda, Hezbollah is the single most dangerous terrorist organization there is. Prior to 9/11, Hezbollah has more American blood on their hands than any other group.

ARENA (on camera): Many terror experts believe, the biggest threat at this time is to U.S. interests overseas. But they warn, this is more of an art than a science and say Americans should remain on guard. Unlike the war in Iraq, there is no end in sight to the war on terror.

Kelly Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're reminded again that there is good reason we try not to hyperventilate, as we said last night, when stories involving chemical or biological weapons in Iraq come up. It's because, on closer inspection, these initial headlines don't always hold up. That now seems the case with yesterday's headline from one Army general that the United States forces had found what may have been mobile chemical and biological labs near Karbala.

The update on what they actually did find upon closer inspection -- again, here's CNN's Ryan Chilcote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go!

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the aftermath of fighting near the city of Karbala, 101st Airborne Division found at least 10 cargo containers of laboratory equipment buried in close proximity to a warehouse of artillery shells, their initial findings, that they had found dual-use chemical and biological labs, possible elements of an Iraqi chemical and biological program, their hunch later discarded by follow-on team of experts.

CWO MONTE GONZALES, ARMY MOBILE EXPLOITATION TEAM: Based on what we've seen here, all these containers are full of millions of dollars worth of very high-tech equipment. But it appears that everything inside of there, while it is a possible that it has a dual use, it appears to be used for the future construction of additional conventional munitions production on this site.

CHILCOTE: This is not the first false alarm of the war. Another suspect site produced signs of nerve agent that turned out later to be a high-grade pesticide. Things in Iraq are rarely what they appear to be at first glance.

GONZALES: Figuring this out, it's like a "Scooby-Doo" mystery. And our best assessment is that the stuff was covered up for either survivability, in anticipation of a coalition attack, or to prevent looting, plain and simple.

CHILCOTE (on camera): The Mobile Exploitation Team Alpha, the U.S. Army's most senior experts in country, will now move on to other sites. They say they will eventually find what they're looking for.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne Division near Karbala, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: So, the United States has yet to find Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. But it has found a couple of important players in the weapons program: scientists.

We will talk with Dana Priest of "The Washington Post" about that and other things -- but a short break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Joining us now in Washington is "Washington Post" reporter and author of "The Mission: Waging War and Keeping the Peace with America's Military," Dana Priest. She covers military and intelligence matters for "The Post."

Nice to have you with us again tonight.

A couple of things let's see if we can get through, first, the scientists. A couple of important have been captured or turned themselves in or are trying to make a deal or some combination of all of that.

DANA PRIEST, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, in fact, two of the three top Iraqi science advisers. One named Jaffar al-Jaffer was apprehended and is now in U.S. military custody in a third Persian Gulf country after he transited through Syria.

And that comes a couple of days after another one, who is a Lieutenant General Saadi, turned himself in, in Baghdad on Saturday. Between them, U.S. intelligence officials and others say that these two men know an awful lot, if not everything, about both chemical and biological weapons, and Jaffer in particular about nuclear weapons. He was the head of their nuclear weapons program until 1991 in the Gulf War, when he vanished.

And then many people believe he began to be the head of the clandestine underground Iraqi nuclear weapons. So they are not yet cooperating. But they hope that, when they do, they'll be exactly the kind of scientists they have said they need to show them where these things are hidden.

BROWN: This is a negotiation that's going on? The Iraqis want, presumably, their freedom? Is that the way this negotiation is shaking?

PRIEST: Well, first and foremost, I think they want to make sure that Saddam Hussein isn't still around, especially in Jaffer's case. He was imprisoned and his colleagues were tortured in front of him, actually, in 1979, when he had the gall to question the Iraqi nuclear weapon. So that's first.

Second would be probably that they don't face war crimes and, third, that they try to cut some kind of advantageous deal for themselves, perhaps that they not be imprisoned or something like that.

BROWN: The intelligence... PRIEST: But yes.

BROWN: I'm sorry.

The intelligence community still confident that, eventually, they will find the weapons of mass destruction, they will find some weapons of mass destruction?

PRIEST: I think they are. They've only just now entered the vast tunnel system that we've talked about before. They're only just now getting to some of the major bomb-damage assessment sites that they destroyed during the war.

So I don't think they thought it was going to be easy in any case, but they really do expect that scientists like these will help them, along with a number of other mid-level officials who they've been negotiating with, particularly the U.S. Army has been talking with over the last couple of days. People, as they feel safer, apparently, are coming forward and saying: I was the member of the Baath Party. Let's make a deal.

BROWN: Is there consensus within the intelligence community that you can figure out, talking to your sources, about whether Saddam is dead or alive?

PRIEST: Still the big question. As one person put it the other day, the feeling around here is, more dead than alive. So go figure that one.

BROWN: Yes.

PRIEST: I think -- but they are also saying that they have gotten a lot of intelligence that indicates he's dead, but it's circumstantial. And they still won't believe it until they can actually go to those sites where he might be and test what they can find there against what they now have told us is DNA from Saddam or one of his family members that he has. So they're looking for something more conclusive.

BROWN: All right, one other topic, and that, in look at the meeting with the opposition groups today, and there was this large demonstration by the Shia fundamentalists, who clearly have a vision and believe they have an important, if not the important role in the future, problems for the American?

PRIEST: Well, absolutely.

They also have backing by the Iranians, a lot of them. This is 65 percent of Iraq are Shia. So it's a very important faction. A government can't even expect to function without them. And many of them have been aligned spiritually and otherwise with Iraq for many years, including a 10,000-man army that has lived in Iran during the reign of Saddam Hussein and has been poking into Iraq since the war began.

This is the Badr Brigade. This is something the U.S. officials don't want to happen. But even in the larger scope, they really don't have money, contacts and much leverage in this community. It's largely a community that wants nothing to do with the United States. And we're seeing in the south, not just in Nasiriyah, where this protest was, but also in Al Kut, where a Shiite cleric was killed, in Karbala, and in other southern towns -- we're seeing that this group is actually seizing control on its own and trying to control towns on its own.

Today, in Al Kut, in fact, a group of Shias stopped some U.S. Marines who wanted to go meet with the cleric who had declared himself the ruler of the town. So most Iranian and Iraqi experts do say that the U.S. has little influence over these groups. And they are stuck with trying to convince them to become part of the U.S.-led coalition of a new government, something that they have not been able to do before.

BROWN: Dana, good to have you with us again today -- Dana Priest with "The Washington Post."

PRIEST: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: With us, we will talk with General Clark about a couple of things, I guess, in just a moment.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we're joined again in Washington by General Wesley Clark.

General, at the risk of -- it does seem to me that David Gergen planted a big fat elephant in the room. And we ought to acknowledge it. Lots of people have come up to me. People have come up to him. And I assume people have come up to you and said, are you interested for running for president.

So, are you interested in running for president?

RET. GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I've said I'm not a candidate, Aaron.

To me -- I am concerned about the country. I am pleased the war has worked out the way it did. It's not clear what the future is. I think the American people still need a dialogue to talk about our new role in the world and where it leads. And I'm delighted to be part of that process in commenting on television and giving speeches around the country and so forth. It's a real honor that people come up to me and think of me that way. But I've made no decisions.

BROWN: Well, I'm sorry. I am going to go one more time at this, General. Are you saying you have no made decision or the decision you have made is no?

CLARK: No, I've made no decisions on this. I'm very much engaged in business. I'm engaged in writing and commenting on things. I am given a chance to speak on occasion. And a lot of people have said that what they appreciate is the fact that I'm giving objective commentary and objective thoughts. And so I just haven't made any decision.

BROWN: Let me just -- I'm really not trying to game you here. But are there -- at all -- are there particular problems of someone who is a retired general, someone who has been that close to the military, transitioning, if you will, to a civilian political job, because it has only happened a couple of times in the country's history?

CLARK: Well, I don't know if there's any particular problems in that, Aaron.

Going into elective politics is a big step for anybody. I tremendously admire the men and women of both political parties who choose that course. For some of them, it's easier, because their parents have been in it or they started it as a young person. I think, for men and women who do it later in life, it's a particularly difficult decision that people make. And I am not sure that that has any direct bearing on what they did before.

For those of us who have served in military, we believe in public service. And we live up to a high standard of commitment for the men and women who served under us. We have loyalty to the people we work with. We're loyal to the commander in chief. We have worn U.S. on both collars for years and years and years. That's the way we have all grown up.

And so it's natural to think of the country. It's unnatural to think of partisan politics. And -- but I'm honored that people would consider me for something like that. I just have made no decision.

BROWN: Let's leave it at that.

CLARK: Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: I expect my phone will ring. I just didn't -- it just seemed like the elephant was in the room and we had to deal with the elephant. So it's dealt with. And we went three-and-a-half weeks without talking about it. That's not bad. General...

CLARK: Thank you. Thank you, again, because I think -- I think, Aaron, that it's really important, when you're commenting, to be able to give objective views. I'm very proud to have been with you on this program talking about the men and women who served.

I'm very, very familiar with the process at all levels, from the bottom to the top, to theater command, where Tommy Franks had. And I think they did a great job. And I'm really honored to have had the chance to talk about them and brag about them to the American people.

BROWN: Well, and, in truth, it would have been altogether more complicated, if not impossible, had you been a candidate in the process. We were glad to have you as we did.

And thanks, again, for putting up with the last three-and-a-half minutes of discomfort, General. Thank you very much, General Wes Clark.

We'll take a break. When we come back: the next in our series of great still photographers and their view of the war.

We'll take a break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The latest now in our series of still photographers who are working in Iraq.

Tonight, again, we feature the work of Kate Brooks, who is on assignment for "TIME" magazine. Her recent travels have taken her to Kirkuk and Tikrit, where has found that, if Iraqi is on the road to peace, it is clearly not at the end of that road, not yet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATE BROOKS, PHOTOGRAPHER, "TIME" (voice-over): My name is Kate Brooks. I'm 25 years old. I'm a photographer working for "TIME" magazine.

I've been basing myself in Kirkuk. Kirkuk fell Thursday. By the end of the first day, the statue had come down. Pulling down Saddam's statue basically represents all of the brutality and the oppression that they have suffered under the regime.

Those pictures are of Kurdish peshmerga forces who went to Kirkuk to liberate the city. Many of them are from Kirkuk. For them, it was a very historic moment and was a personal experience. After 12 years, they were going home. The man who is lying on the ground who has been killed and burned is a Syrian who came to Kirkuk to fight for Saddam.

I've been basing myself in Kirkuk. I've taken some day trips to Tikrit in the last couple of days. That is the bridge that connects the road from Kirkuk to Tikrit. And that is the main checkpoint, as that is the main route into Tikrit. They were doing quite thorough searches on each and every car. Above the bridge is one of Saddam's palaces. There are a lot of special forces and Marines currently based there. Marines, technically, are not allowed to go inside. The picture that I took is of one Marine who decided to go in and have a closer look.

A few kilometers away from the other palace that overlooks the bridge, Saddam has another palace. And the Marines are currently stationed there. Today, they were doing their laundry and just sun- bathing and having an easy day in an opulent setting.

When I was leaving the city today, they found a bomb in a car that was trying to pass an American checkpoint. And, at that time, hordes of people were coming back on foot into Tikrit. The situation was very chaotic as they had just found the bomb, which was ticking. It's easy to be swept up in moments, historical moments, and joyous occasions. And as the war is coming closer to an end, in particular, I think journalists begin to have a false sense of safety. And certainly in the days following, it's been more and more clear that the situation continues to be tense and unstable.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Kate Brooks, shooting for "TIME" magazine.

In the next hour: getting down to the nuts and bolts of running the new Iraq. Also tonight: new details on the story of Private Jessica Lynch and how she was freed; U.S. troops facing trouble with civilians in the town of Mosul; and how a 12-year-old Iraqi boy became a symbol of war to the entire world -- all that and more in the hour ahead.

We'll take a break first, get the latest news headlines. And then we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 15, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again from New York. Tonight, the headline is what the headline isn't. It isn't the war, but what comes next instead.
Today, in what was once the cradle of civilization, the job of bringing a new Iraq into the world began. Somehow from the hopes and fears and dreams of 25 million people, a government will eventually emerge. Taking all those factors into account is neither simple nor easy, and certainly will not be quick. But if today is any indication, it won't be perfect either. But it is where we begin, with "The Big Picture" tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Under an enormous white tent in the desert, not far from the Biblical city of Ur, Iraqi opposition leaders met under American authority to begin charting a course for the future, a new government. No important leaders inside, nearly everyone sent deputies, but it was a start.

A start too, for protests that undoubtedly would not have been allowed under the regime of Saddam Hussein. These are Shiites, protesting that only a few of their representatives had been invited. Signs conveniently in both Arabic and English.

Sunnis protested too, fearing that as a minority, they'll be left out of significant power. To the Pentagon, it was seeing the glass half full.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: This much is certain, it will be temporary. It will be large, involving Iraqis from all walks of life, and it will be open to participation by new leaders from across the country as they emerge from the shadow of Saddam Hussein's repression.

BROWN: There was a firefight in the northern city of Mosul, Americans exchanging gunfire in the middle of the town. Several Iraqis dead. But significant combat across Iraq has come to an end. Tikrit seemed fully under coalition control, and the Bush administration once again took pains to remind Syria that the times and the geopolitics have changed.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We hope that Syria understand now that there is a new environment in the region with the end of the regime of Saddam Hussein, and that Syria will reconsider its policies of past years, and understand that there are better choices it can make than the choices it has made in the past.

BROWN: In Baghdad, a few more police on the streets. Marines went out on foot patrols as well. But fires still burned in some government building and looters still strolled down smoke-filled avenues with bravado.

Other Marine units found tons of additional weapons. These crates of weapons had labels indicating they'd come from both Saudi Arabia and Yemen. Reporters could see a truck-mounted anti-aircraft gun in a playground and anti-tank shell on the floor of a hospital. Some of the weapons will be destroyed, the military says. Others kept for a new Iraqi army.

MYAD SAID AL DAMERJI, PROFESSOR, BAGHDAD UNIV.: It was one of the most important and is still one of the most important museums that reveals the whole history of mankind from 500,000 B.C. to now.

BROWN: Fresh pictures from the Iraqi National Museum. Pottery smashed, statues badly damaged, even some documents stolen. Suspicion that the plunder, at least some of it, was orchestrated. An inside job by some former employees is the inference. The Pentagon says rewards are being offered for the safe return of some of the artifacts.

CWO MONTE GONZALES, ARMY MOBILE EXPLOITATION TEAM: Based on what we have seen here, all of these containers are full of millions of dollars worth of very high-tech equipment, but it appears that everything inside of there, while it is possible that it has a dual use, it appears to be used for the future construction of additional conventional munitions production on this site.

BROWN: And about those underground containers found in the desert south of Baghdad, the military today said they are not a chemical weapons factory. No smoking gun so far as weapons of mass destruction.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the big picture tonight. We'll spend the next two hours, yes, only two hours, looking at all the smaller pictures that make up the big piece. We begin here. Work and shake things loose, and today it shook loose a fugitive. American forces captured a Palestinian terrorist who has been on the run ever since a notorious hijacking and murder nearly 18 years ago. Our national security correspondent David Ensor has more from Washington tonight. David, good evening.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron. The U.S. has been trying to get its hands on this man for nearly 20 years now. For nearly half of that time, he's been in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): CNN was the first to report that Abu Abbas, a wanted terrorist since 1985, was captured by U.S. Special Forces Monday night in a compound on the southern outskirts of Baghdad, acting on a tip from U.S. intelligence. Abu Abbas, the nom de guerre of Mohammed Abbas, was taken along with several others, U.S. officials say, and documents and passports.

The fact that Saddam Hussein's government gave him sanctuary was cited recently by President Bush as evidence of Baghdad's ties to terrorists.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Iraq has also provided safe haven to Abu Abbas, who was responsible for seizing the Achille Lauro and killing an American passenger.

ENSOR: Leon Klinghoffer, seen here with his wife, was a wheelchair-bound disabled tourist in 1985 when the Palestine Liberation Front leader Abu Abbas ordered the Jewish American shot in full view of his wife, and then his wheelchair pushed overboard off the deck of the Italian cruise ship the Achille Lauro, which the terrorists had just seized.

Abbas was found guilty of murder by an Italian court. U.S. officials say there is no decision yet on his fate. Piracy and conspiracy charges in the U.S. have expired, but could be refiled, officials say. In the years since 1985, Abbas has lived in various times in Tunisia, Libya and the Gaza Strip before settling in Iraq. In a 1996 interview with CNN, he said they never intended to kill anybody.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ABU ABBAS (through translator): The media didn't tell the world that Abu Abbas saved the lives of 600 passengers, only that a disabled man was killed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: U.S. officials say they hope this capture will send a message to potential terrorists around the world. No matter how long it takes, the U.S. will get them in the end -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, that's one they got. There was also some speculation today about an Iraqi who may have gotten away. High ranking intelligence officer. What do you know on that?

ENSOR: His name is Farouk Hijazi. He is currently the ambassador to Tunisia of Iraq. And he traveled from Tunis to Damascus according to U.S. officials I've spoken to.

Now, he is suspected by the United States of having been involved in the unsuccessful plot to kill President George Bush, Sr. in Kuwait. He's also, there are reports, unconfirmed reports, that he may have met in the past with one or more senior al Qaeda leaders. So this is a man the U.S. would really like to get its hands on, and as I say, there are some U.S. officials who are fairly angry at Syria for at least so far harboring him -- Aaron. BROWN: He has diplomatic protection or not?

ENSOR: He has some diplomatic protection in the sense that he is an accredited diplomat, credited to Tunisia, and he has an international diplomat's passports. So lawyers in this country and elsewhere are going back to the books to see under what procedures Syria could be obliged to send him out of the country. It's a complicated legal issue everyone's looking at tonight.

BROWN: David, thank you. David Ensor, who covers national security matters for us. Back now to the other main story line of the night, the big opposition meeting today, what was said, what got done, who was there, and notably, who stayed away. It took place just outside of Nasiriyah. CNN's John Vause joins us now for more on the meeting. John, good evening to you.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. Well, those groups, they gathered just outside Nasiriyah, although ethnic and religious leaders representing Iraqis who have been denied a role in their government, in the destiny of their country for more than three decades. It was an historic meeting. They talked and talked and agreed to talk some more.

They came away with a 13-point plan. Among most notable, that Iraq should be a free, democratic and federal system. They should be respect for women. Also, the Baath Party should be dissolved. The United States, which is sponsoring these talks and many other talks around the country, says it has no intention of staying. It made that clear at that meeting today. But already at this historic occasion, problems are beginning to emerge; deep divisions are now showing within this country.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE (voice-over): On the streets of Nasiriyah, rumor and half- truths were enough to bring out thousands in protests. The Shiites, they said, were being deliberately ignored. Their concerns going unheard.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Iraq's for Iraqis. My oil is for my people.

VAUSE: True, some Shiite groups were not represented at this, the first of many town meetings, but the U.S. says only because those Shiites decided to boycott. Some did, in fact, turn up. And there were rumors, like the one this protest organizer told me.

"The Americans came for the oil," he said. "Already a pipeline has been cleared from Kirkuk to Israel."

Everywhere here there are deep divisions and mistrust of American intentions.

The local imam told me, "we do not trust them when they say they will install an Iraqi leader," he says. "Iraqis can control their own affairs." But for others, like Brezam Sual (ph), the only thing that really matters right now is safety for his family. "It doesn't matter the Americans come or go," he says. "I need peace. I need security." Their home was badly damaged when a coalition air strike hit the Baath Party headquarters across the street, and then the looters moved in and took everything out.

Politics, it seems, doesn't mean much when all you have left is an old, small side table to sit on.

Still, at one of Nasiriyah's many barber shops, the talk was about that meeting just a few miles down the road. I asked Jabbar (ph) about Ahmad Chalabi, the leader of the exiled National Congress. He's seen him once, he says.

"We want one Iraq," he says, "not divided. One Iraq for all people." It's a simple idea, but sometimes the simplest things can be the hardest.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Now, Aaron, the plan now for this particular group, which met here just outside Nasiriyah, they will meet again in 10 days, and they will put together at that meeting, they hope, concrete proposals to govern Iraq in a post-Saddam Hussein era. Now, there will be more big tent meetings across Iraq. They are called listening meetings, and from that, they will hold one national meeting, and the United States hopes from that national meeting, an Iraqi interim authority will be established as soon as possible -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. John Vause outside Nasiriyah. To Baghdad next, where, again today, police officers tried to find their footing and American forces did what they could to get a better grip on things. It made for some strange moments, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) interlude or two, and a lot more encounters between Iraqis and Americans on the street. CNN's Nic Robertson has the duty tonight. Back with us, Nic. Good to see you.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, Aaron. Well, certainly the efforts by the U.S. Marines here in Baghdad to work with the police force, the former Saddam Hussein police force here does appear to be beginning to pay off. It does appear to be encouraging and fostering a situation where at least some businessmen are feeling encouraged enough to restart their businesses.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): With a smile and a blast at Saddam, Mohammed reopens his bookstore. Neighbors quick to point out, he's not a looter. After a month's closure, dust thick on the shelves he prudently emptied before he left. Gone so long, the clock stopped, but now he says, it's time to restart his business.

"Today it's safer," he says. "I didn't hear any tank shells or bullets." Next door, Mohammed the grocer is back at work. Candy and soda all he can offer for now. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are free. Anytime. But when the night is coming, we are closing. And I don't know the next day. I see my shop, my shop safe or broke (ph)?

ROBERTSON: At a bakery, war didn't stop Abu Ahmed (ph) working, but now he says, making bread is getting harder. "It's very difficult to do our jobs. We have a shortage of everything," he says. "Electricity, flour, fuel, water, even soap."

At the counter, customers wait patiently. But seeing us, many vent pent-up anger, the lack of electricity and security.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wish -- I am nothing now. I wish that I have no mind to think that my country -- I love my country. Who can help me to feel that my country is still there?

ROBERTSON (on camera): Most stores here remain locked up and shuttered. Many businessmen, it seems, still feel it's too dangerous to open up just yet. The situation is still far from normal.

(voice-over): Increasing their efforts to restore that normality. U.S. Marines are now patrolling some Baghdad streets on foot. A more visible presence designed to help reduce looting, but unlike British forces in the south, these U.S. Marines still in full combat gear.

To help restore water and other much-needed services, Marines have been meeting with city planners and engineers. The shift away from fighting the war apparently not stopping the thinly-spread U.S. force from its original mission. This day, another weapons cache discovered by the Marines in the center of the capital.

Possibly, however, the long day's taking their toll. This Marine snatches a quick nap in a chair at Saddam's wife's palace. Most in the city, though, would likely prefer the Marines weren't this stretched and there were enough to get the job done quickly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And perhaps what cannot be underestimated here or perhaps shouldn't be underestimated here, the level of frustration and anger, Aaron. When we go out on the streets and take time to listen to people, the thing they want to keep telling us is, they want that security and they really want to get the electricity switched back on in the city very quickly. And they say they cannot understand why it's taking so long -- Aaron.

BROWN: And why is it taking so long?

ROBERTSON: That's a very good question. When one of our correspondents went out to the power plant, just three days ago, the city engineers there said with eight hours and 30 men, they could have the power station up and running again. One thing that people on the street have told us is, they feel the looters may have gone to some of the smaller electricity distribution sites and looted some of the equipment there. Certainly we are seeing the Marines and the Army here giving their support to the Iraqi engineers at this time to try to get the electricity turned back on. But the Iraqi people look at the U.S. forces and blame them. They don't blame their own engineers at this time, Aaron. So it's something that is a critical issue that needs to be addressed, if only from a perception point of view.

BROWN: And just one more, Nic, to put things in some context. Actually, I asked you this question one day last week. Is Baghdad today a safer city than Baghdad was four days ago?

ROBERTSON: Yes. Categorically, absolutely, it is safer. There are some areas like that large suburb, a very poor suburb used to be called Saddam City. It is being renamed. We're not sure what the name's going to be. But that area is still relatively lawless. The hospital there is controlled by Shia clerics and armed gunmen. The rest of the city, there are still sporadic gun battles going on, but the rest of Baghdad, even the last two nights, those sporadic gun battles we've heard, very much subsided. The city definitely a safer place than four days ago -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson in Baghdad.

And we're joined again tonight by retired General Wesley Clark. General joins us from Washington. General, I had the feeling watching the reaction to the meeting, the demonstrations today in Iraq that we may soon long for the days when the biggest problem was looting.

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Aaron, I think that it's early yet in this. And there is going to be disarming. The question is where it goes from here? It's a question of, can this culture, can these different cultures there settle their disputes through dialogue, through reason, and with some help from mediation, or is there going to be a lot of underhanded assassination, bomb setting, intimidation by outside powers and so forth that will completely disrupt Jay Garner's efforts at the political process. And it's, I think, it's too early to be able to say that right now. We'll just have to work it.

BROWN: At what point can the United States Army, or the United States government say, this is not acceptable. For example, if the Iraqis decide that what they want a fundamentalist theocracy, acceptable to the United States if that's what they choose?

CLARK: That's a really tough policy call, and obviously the United States is going to do everything it can to prevent that emerging. It's only normal. But if it happens, then I think we're going to have a hard time arguing against it, provided that we get some pledges from that government not to support terrorism, not to rebuild a weapons of mass destruction program, and provided we feel the government is secured from its neighbors.

BROWN: That is not some wild notion. That's not out of the question. We know just seeing in a small way looking at Kuwait when, after the first Gulf War, that the best organized political parties in Kuwait were fundamentalist Islamic parties, and they in fact gained seats in the parliament. So it's not out of the question that the Shia majority might want a theocracy. CLARK: It's not at all, and if it comes about through democracy, it's going to be hard for the United States to declare it illegitimate. And Aaron, this is one of the concerns that many of us have had when we've excluded the U.N. from a role like this. It would have been far easier for the United Nations to come in and say look, there has to be protection for minorities. This has to be done and this has to be done and so forth. For the United States to do that overtly is much more difficult.

BROWN: On the military side, anything there that you see today or in the last 24 hours that got your attention?

CLARK: I think the operations is rolling to a complete conclusion, and the thing that impressed me most is the movement of the 4th Infantry Division in and the heavy forces that have now moved into Baghdad in a further effort to be able to put the presence on the ground, to intimidate would-be looters, to be able to interact with the people and to be able to get that power plant operating again, and taking care of the humanitarian issues that may emerge there.

So I think the forces on the ground are moving ahead, about as constructively and about as rapidly as can be expected. There is going to be impatience with the pace of the restoration of services. That's inevitable. But I just wondered when that report came about, the 30 Iraqis in eight hours, clear word those 30 Iraqis, because the United States did not bomb those facilities deliberately, withheld it so that they could be put back in order. So I am sure on the ground, there are commanders there are asking the same question, produce those 30 Iraqis, let's get the power on.

BROWN: General, we'll talk to you again before the night is done. It's good to have you with us again. Coming up next, President Bush was out today talking about domestic policy, talking about the economy, talking about his tax cut. Politics is in the air again. David Gergen joins us after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We touched on Syria a moment ago. The news seeming to flesh out the Bush administration's bill of indictment. It remains to be seen how this will affect the administration's position, which until this got out earlier tonight, seemed to be softening ever so slightly. Here's CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One day after a chorus of Bush administration officials threatened the regime of Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad, Secretary of State Powell appeared before foreign journalists to play down any suggestions Syria was next on the U.N. hit list.

POWELL: But there is no list. There is no war plan right now to go and attack somewhere else, either for the purpose of overthrowing their leadership, or for the purpose of imposing democratic values. KOPPEL: No war plan right now, but still a softer message than Monday, when Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld refused to rule out Syria as a target.

QUESTION: Should Syria understand that one of the potential consequences of their actions that you're talking about today is military action by the United States?

RUMSFELD: I didn't say anything like that.

QUESTION: But could you respond to that, though? Is that something that they should consider as a potential...

RUMSFELD: I think what -- what -- I've said I've said, and I've stated facts, and that's what I tend to do. In terms of policy, that's for others.

KOPPEL: Tuesday, Rumsfeld demurred.

RUMSFELD: The president's spoken on it, Secretary Powell's spoken on it, I'll leave that to them.

BUSH: And there's no doubt we're going to meet those priorities.

KOPPEL: President Bush has not spelled out potential consequences for the Syrian regime, but Powell repeated U.S. warnings to Syria not to harbor Iraqi war criminals, to end its alleged chemical weapons program and support for terrorists. The U.S. also believes Iraqi chemical and biological weapons may have been moved into Syria for safe keeping.

POWELL: We hope that Syria understands now that there is a new environment in the region with the end of the regime of Saddam Hussein. And that Syria will reconsider its policies of past years.

KOPPEL (on camera): At the moment, the Bush administration's policy seems to be to try to use its victory in Iraq to scare Syria into cooperating without closing the door on possible military action. As one senior administration official put it, the U.S. has no intention of using force against Syria unless, quote, "Syria does something really stupid and fires on American troops."

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The president at the White House today was talking about his tax cut, the economy and jobs, a reminder that the war has faded a bit from the headlines, and that a presidential election is just a year plus away. David Gergen joins us. Mr. Gergen has been an adviser to presidents and we're often honored to have his company.

DAVID GERGEN, FORMER WHITE HOUSE ADVISER: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Nice to see you.

GERGEN: Nice to see you again, first.

BROWN: The danger for the president, even with big approval ratings, is a very sloppy economy right now. It's that simple, right?

GERGEN: Absolutely. And everybody in the White House, starting with Karl Rove, his chief political adviser, and some might think his economic adviser, remembers what happened to his father. Yes, he was at 88 percent approval rating after the Persian Gulf War, and over 18 months, he dropped 50 points, 60 points in the polls and was defeated by Bill Clinton. So they don't want to repeat that for starters.

BROWN: Last week, because of a couple of recalcitrant Republicans in the Senate, the president's tax cut was cut in half. That's at least if you buy the Senate's view, that's the best he is going to get out of it. Here's a president riding at 71 percent popularity and he can't push through that with the majority in the Senate. What does that tell you?

GERGEN: Well, he pushes -- pushed through this huge tax cut at the beginning of his term, as you know, over $1 trillion, and since that time, we have lost jobs, the economy hasn't really improved, and so there are a lot of Americans who are bucking him, even as they support the president, salute him for his job on the war. The polls show that some 60 percent right now oppose more tax cuts until we know what the costs of the war are and know how high these deficits are going to go.

And very importantly, Aaron, the two Republicans who have been sort of opposing him in the Senate, Senator Snowe of Maine, Senator Voinovich of Ohio, they've been joined by Senator Grassley, who is Republican chair of the Finance Committee, who has pledged to block a tax cut bigger than 350, and the president is saying I want 550. So as Ari Fleischer, the press secretary, said today, it's going to be a big fight, it's an uphill fight for the president.

BROWN: I want to get to the Democrats.

GERGEN: Sure.

BROWN: But just one question on this. Does the president in your political view, have to win on the tax cut or just fight it out?

GERGEN: That's a wonderful question, because, in fact, I think what they're trying to do is put themselves in a position, if the economy comes back on its own, everybody is going to forget this fight. But if the economy does not come back and he's going to go out there and fought for this and lost, he then has an argument why the economy hasn't come back. It helps him in that sense. But it also, by moving the focus back to domestic, which he is now doing, it finally gets the arguments back on where the Democrats want to fight, which is on the economy. It gives them a chance to finally find their voice. They have been mute, they have been just supined during much of this war, but they now will have a chance to start speaking up again.

BROWN: All right, 90 seconds on them. Is there, from this varied Democratic candidates (UNINTELLIGIBLE), is there yet a coherent message on the economy for me?

GERGEN: No, there is not. And Bill Clinton was here in New York today speaking to a group, and he made the argument, the single most important thing that the Democrats have to do is not find a candidate but find a message. And right now they don't.

What they do need to do is first of all, find a candidate who is good on national security so that people are willing to listen to them on the economy. It's striking to me, Aaron, that in recent days, how many people come up to me and say, what about Wes Clark? We have been watching him right here on your network. Do you think he, as a former general, can he do it?

Of course, there are others out there who are already on the field. But they have not yet find a message -- but they have the makings of the message, Aaron, in the few seconds we have left. They can argue, look, we have won the war, but look what's happening in the economy. Over two million jobs have been lost. The stock market's down over 20 percent. And the surplus that was seemed to be going forever has now turned into at least a $400 billion deficit, maybe higher. But they have the makings of a message.

BROWN: Absent selling the country that they are tougher on national security, this, to me I think the rest of this stuff is a nonstarter for the country.

GERGEN: What do you mean, what's a nonstarter?

BROWN: Unless a Democratic candidate can convince the country that he or she is strong on national security, then the rest of it doesn't matter.

GERGEN: I agree. That's the threshold test. Will the country be safe in your hands? And then I am willing to listen to you on the rest.

BROWN: David, thank you, it's good to see you.

GERGEN: It's good to see you too.

BROWN: Good to see you in person. Thank you, David Gergen, with us.

Still ahead in the next half-hour, the Iraqi chemical lab that wasn't. Why the threat level in the country may be reduced. That after a break, and we'll have the latest headlines too. Our coverage continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This is a story about something that didn't happen. That something is a terror attack, a big concern going into the war, big enough that the government raised the threat level to orange. Now the government is talking about when to lower it. And part of that is trying to figure out why there was no attack in the first place. Was it better security, good luck, or bad intelligence to begin with? Here's CNN Justice Department correspondent Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): With the outbreak of war came a series of warnings and a rise in the nation's threat level. Would Saddam Hussein send Iraqi terrorists to retaliate? Would al Qaeda take advantage of the situation and once again attack on U.S. soil?

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There was intelligence that indicated that an elevated and escalated military presence by the United States and escalated activity in Iraq might occasion additional activity by terrorists.

ARENA: Obviously, there hasn't been an attack. The man in charge of homeland security offers this explanation.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: Being on alert, being aware, being empowered with this information we think is a deterrent factor.

ARENA: But it's hard to prove a negative. Counterterrorism officials concede, we may never know whether increased security thwarted a planned attack.

But there is other concrete evidence of success against al Qaeda: the capture of key operatives, most notably Khalid Shaikh Mohammed. And along with those operatives came nearly six million documents loaded with intelligence leads.

TERRANCE GAINER, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE CHIEF: We still know that the terrorists would like to take another bite of the Capitol or the White House, Washington in general.

ARENA: The most recent audiotape believed to be from Osama bin Laden urging suicide attacks underscores al Qaeda's resolve.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It's clear to everybody that America, this mighty aggressor, can be defeated, can be destroyed and can be humiliated.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

ARENA: What's more, as tensions in the Middle East escalate, there is growing concern about the Lebanon-based terrorist group Hezbollah.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Next to al Qaeda, Hezbollah is the single most dangerous terrorist organization there is. Prior to 9/11, Hezbollah has more American blood on their hands than any other group.

ARENA (on camera): Many terror experts believe, the biggest threat at this time is to U.S. interests overseas. But they warn, this is more of an art than a science and say Americans should remain on guard. Unlike the war in Iraq, there is no end in sight to the war on terror.

Kelly Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We're reminded again that there is good reason we try not to hyperventilate, as we said last night, when stories involving chemical or biological weapons in Iraq come up. It's because, on closer inspection, these initial headlines don't always hold up. That now seems the case with yesterday's headline from one Army general that the United States forces had found what may have been mobile chemical and biological labs near Karbala.

The update on what they actually did find upon closer inspection -- again, here's CNN's Ryan Chilcote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go, go!

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In the aftermath of fighting near the city of Karbala, 101st Airborne Division found at least 10 cargo containers of laboratory equipment buried in close proximity to a warehouse of artillery shells, their initial findings, that they had found dual-use chemical and biological labs, possible elements of an Iraqi chemical and biological program, their hunch later discarded by follow-on team of experts.

CWO MONTE GONZALES, ARMY MOBILE EXPLOITATION TEAM: Based on what we've seen here, all these containers are full of millions of dollars worth of very high-tech equipment. But it appears that everything inside of there, while it is a possible that it has a dual use, it appears to be used for the future construction of additional conventional munitions production on this site.

CHILCOTE: This is not the first false alarm of the war. Another suspect site produced signs of nerve agent that turned out later to be a high-grade pesticide. Things in Iraq are rarely what they appear to be at first glance.

GONZALES: Figuring this out, it's like a "Scooby-Doo" mystery. And our best assessment is that the stuff was covered up for either survivability, in anticipation of a coalition attack, or to prevent looting, plain and simple.

CHILCOTE (on camera): The Mobile Exploitation Team Alpha, the U.S. Army's most senior experts in country, will now move on to other sites. They say they will eventually find what they're looking for.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne Division near Karbala, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: So, the United States has yet to find Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. But it has found a couple of important players in the weapons program: scientists.

We will talk with Dana Priest of "The Washington Post" about that and other things -- but a short break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Joining us now in Washington is "Washington Post" reporter and author of "The Mission: Waging War and Keeping the Peace with America's Military," Dana Priest. She covers military and intelligence matters for "The Post."

Nice to have you with us again tonight.

A couple of things let's see if we can get through, first, the scientists. A couple of important have been captured or turned themselves in or are trying to make a deal or some combination of all of that.

DANA PRIEST, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Well, in fact, two of the three top Iraqi science advisers. One named Jaffar al-Jaffer was apprehended and is now in U.S. military custody in a third Persian Gulf country after he transited through Syria.

And that comes a couple of days after another one, who is a Lieutenant General Saadi, turned himself in, in Baghdad on Saturday. Between them, U.S. intelligence officials and others say that these two men know an awful lot, if not everything, about both chemical and biological weapons, and Jaffer in particular about nuclear weapons. He was the head of their nuclear weapons program until 1991 in the Gulf War, when he vanished.

And then many people believe he began to be the head of the clandestine underground Iraqi nuclear weapons. So they are not yet cooperating. But they hope that, when they do, they'll be exactly the kind of scientists they have said they need to show them where these things are hidden.

BROWN: This is a negotiation that's going on? The Iraqis want, presumably, their freedom? Is that the way this negotiation is shaking?

PRIEST: Well, first and foremost, I think they want to make sure that Saddam Hussein isn't still around, especially in Jaffer's case. He was imprisoned and his colleagues were tortured in front of him, actually, in 1979, when he had the gall to question the Iraqi nuclear weapon. So that's first.

Second would be probably that they don't face war crimes and, third, that they try to cut some kind of advantageous deal for themselves, perhaps that they not be imprisoned or something like that.

BROWN: The intelligence... PRIEST: But yes.

BROWN: I'm sorry.

The intelligence community still confident that, eventually, they will find the weapons of mass destruction, they will find some weapons of mass destruction?

PRIEST: I think they are. They've only just now entered the vast tunnel system that we've talked about before. They're only just now getting to some of the major bomb-damage assessment sites that they destroyed during the war.

So I don't think they thought it was going to be easy in any case, but they really do expect that scientists like these will help them, along with a number of other mid-level officials who they've been negotiating with, particularly the U.S. Army has been talking with over the last couple of days. People, as they feel safer, apparently, are coming forward and saying: I was the member of the Baath Party. Let's make a deal.

BROWN: Is there consensus within the intelligence community that you can figure out, talking to your sources, about whether Saddam is dead or alive?

PRIEST: Still the big question. As one person put it the other day, the feeling around here is, more dead than alive. So go figure that one.

BROWN: Yes.

PRIEST: I think -- but they are also saying that they have gotten a lot of intelligence that indicates he's dead, but it's circumstantial. And they still won't believe it until they can actually go to those sites where he might be and test what they can find there against what they now have told us is DNA from Saddam or one of his family members that he has. So they're looking for something more conclusive.

BROWN: All right, one other topic, and that, in look at the meeting with the opposition groups today, and there was this large demonstration by the Shia fundamentalists, who clearly have a vision and believe they have an important, if not the important role in the future, problems for the American?

PRIEST: Well, absolutely.

They also have backing by the Iranians, a lot of them. This is 65 percent of Iraq are Shia. So it's a very important faction. A government can't even expect to function without them. And many of them have been aligned spiritually and otherwise with Iraq for many years, including a 10,000-man army that has lived in Iran during the reign of Saddam Hussein and has been poking into Iraq since the war began.

This is the Badr Brigade. This is something the U.S. officials don't want to happen. But even in the larger scope, they really don't have money, contacts and much leverage in this community. It's largely a community that wants nothing to do with the United States. And we're seeing in the south, not just in Nasiriyah, where this protest was, but also in Al Kut, where a Shiite cleric was killed, in Karbala, and in other southern towns -- we're seeing that this group is actually seizing control on its own and trying to control towns on its own.

Today, in Al Kut, in fact, a group of Shias stopped some U.S. Marines who wanted to go meet with the cleric who had declared himself the ruler of the town. So most Iranian and Iraqi experts do say that the U.S. has little influence over these groups. And they are stuck with trying to convince them to become part of the U.S.-led coalition of a new government, something that they have not been able to do before.

BROWN: Dana, good to have you with us again today -- Dana Priest with "The Washington Post."

PRIEST: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: With us, we will talk with General Clark about a couple of things, I guess, in just a moment.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we're joined again in Washington by General Wesley Clark.

General, at the risk of -- it does seem to me that David Gergen planted a big fat elephant in the room. And we ought to acknowledge it. Lots of people have come up to me. People have come up to him. And I assume people have come up to you and said, are you interested for running for president.

So, are you interested in running for president?

RET. GENERAL WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I've said I'm not a candidate, Aaron.

To me -- I am concerned about the country. I am pleased the war has worked out the way it did. It's not clear what the future is. I think the American people still need a dialogue to talk about our new role in the world and where it leads. And I'm delighted to be part of that process in commenting on television and giving speeches around the country and so forth. It's a real honor that people come up to me and think of me that way. But I've made no decisions.

BROWN: Well, I'm sorry. I am going to go one more time at this, General. Are you saying you have no made decision or the decision you have made is no?

CLARK: No, I've made no decisions on this. I'm very much engaged in business. I'm engaged in writing and commenting on things. I am given a chance to speak on occasion. And a lot of people have said that what they appreciate is the fact that I'm giving objective commentary and objective thoughts. And so I just haven't made any decision.

BROWN: Let me just -- I'm really not trying to game you here. But are there -- at all -- are there particular problems of someone who is a retired general, someone who has been that close to the military, transitioning, if you will, to a civilian political job, because it has only happened a couple of times in the country's history?

CLARK: Well, I don't know if there's any particular problems in that, Aaron.

Going into elective politics is a big step for anybody. I tremendously admire the men and women of both political parties who choose that course. For some of them, it's easier, because their parents have been in it or they started it as a young person. I think, for men and women who do it later in life, it's a particularly difficult decision that people make. And I am not sure that that has any direct bearing on what they did before.

For those of us who have served in military, we believe in public service. And we live up to a high standard of commitment for the men and women who served under us. We have loyalty to the people we work with. We're loyal to the commander in chief. We have worn U.S. on both collars for years and years and years. That's the way we have all grown up.

And so it's natural to think of the country. It's unnatural to think of partisan politics. And -- but I'm honored that people would consider me for something like that. I just have made no decision.

BROWN: Let's leave it at that.

CLARK: Thank you.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: I expect my phone will ring. I just didn't -- it just seemed like the elephant was in the room and we had to deal with the elephant. So it's dealt with. And we went three-and-a-half weeks without talking about it. That's not bad. General...

CLARK: Thank you. Thank you, again, because I think -- I think, Aaron, that it's really important, when you're commenting, to be able to give objective views. I'm very proud to have been with you on this program talking about the men and women who served.

I'm very, very familiar with the process at all levels, from the bottom to the top, to theater command, where Tommy Franks had. And I think they did a great job. And I'm really honored to have had the chance to talk about them and brag about them to the American people.

BROWN: Well, and, in truth, it would have been altogether more complicated, if not impossible, had you been a candidate in the process. We were glad to have you as we did.

And thanks, again, for putting up with the last three-and-a-half minutes of discomfort, General. Thank you very much, General Wes Clark.

We'll take a break. When we come back: the next in our series of great still photographers and their view of the war.

We'll take a break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The latest now in our series of still photographers who are working in Iraq.

Tonight, again, we feature the work of Kate Brooks, who is on assignment for "TIME" magazine. Her recent travels have taken her to Kirkuk and Tikrit, where has found that, if Iraqi is on the road to peace, it is clearly not at the end of that road, not yet.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATE BROOKS, PHOTOGRAPHER, "TIME" (voice-over): My name is Kate Brooks. I'm 25 years old. I'm a photographer working for "TIME" magazine.

I've been basing myself in Kirkuk. Kirkuk fell Thursday. By the end of the first day, the statue had come down. Pulling down Saddam's statue basically represents all of the brutality and the oppression that they have suffered under the regime.

Those pictures are of Kurdish peshmerga forces who went to Kirkuk to liberate the city. Many of them are from Kirkuk. For them, it was a very historic moment and was a personal experience. After 12 years, they were going home. The man who is lying on the ground who has been killed and burned is a Syrian who came to Kirkuk to fight for Saddam.

I've been basing myself in Kirkuk. I've taken some day trips to Tikrit in the last couple of days. That is the bridge that connects the road from Kirkuk to Tikrit. And that is the main checkpoint, as that is the main route into Tikrit. They were doing quite thorough searches on each and every car. Above the bridge is one of Saddam's palaces. There are a lot of special forces and Marines currently based there. Marines, technically, are not allowed to go inside. The picture that I took is of one Marine who decided to go in and have a closer look.

A few kilometers away from the other palace that overlooks the bridge, Saddam has another palace. And the Marines are currently stationed there. Today, they were doing their laundry and just sun- bathing and having an easy day in an opulent setting.

When I was leaving the city today, they found a bomb in a car that was trying to pass an American checkpoint. And, at that time, hordes of people were coming back on foot into Tikrit. The situation was very chaotic as they had just found the bomb, which was ticking. It's easy to be swept up in moments, historical moments, and joyous occasions. And as the war is coming closer to an end, in particular, I think journalists begin to have a false sense of safety. And certainly in the days following, it's been more and more clear that the situation continues to be tense and unstable.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Kate Brooks, shooting for "TIME" magazine.

In the next hour: getting down to the nuts and bolts of running the new Iraq. Also tonight: new details on the story of Private Jessica Lynch and how she was freed; U.S. troops facing trouble with civilians in the town of Mosul; and how a 12-year-old Iraqi boy became a symbol of war to the entire world -- all that and more in the hour ahead.

We'll take a break first, get the latest news headlines. And then we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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