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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

The New Iraq: Restoring Order

Aired April 16, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening from New York, every one. Aaron is off tonight. I'm Anderson Cooper.
It was a day of images for the history books. An American commander set foot in Baghdad. Lights started going on in the city. Tempers continue to flare and, to be sure, dangers remain but little by little, day by day, the news from Baghdad seems to be improving. President Bush even allowed himself his first public smile at how things are going.

And, at an air base in Western Europe, an image seven families will not soon forget.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): The seven American former POWs are one step closer to home tonight. They arrived in German for further treatment, next stop the United States.

Throughout Baghdad on Wednesday, demonstrations, some like this one relatively small, more security they want, a quicker return of essential services.

There were some large demonstrations as well. These are Shiites celebrating a holy day. Neither protest would have been allowed or even imagined under Saddam Hussein.

Slowly, hospitals are working again but the Red Cross says it is not easy.

ROLAND HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN, INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS: Right now some of them are operating at half capacity. We are desperately trying to reestablish power for them because a hospital can not work at all if it doesn't have electricity and water.

COOPER: Difficult to believe but today was the one-week anniversary of that memorable moment when the statue fell, one week ago, hardly any time at all.

MAJ. GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, JOINTS CHIEFS OF STAFF: We have service people trying to bring stability to an area and having elements of whatever, a party or group, trying to oppose that.

COOPER: There was time today for a short visit by General Tommy Franks, the man in overall charge of the war on the ground. He landed just outside the city at the airport protected by American tanks.

Inside the city, big crowds surrounded the Iraqi man appointed to be the new interim governor of Baghdad, he too protected by U.S. forces.

U.S. forces still hold Palestinian terrorist Abu Abbas, captured by Special Forces and Marines Monday night, the question now what to do with him. He may wind up in Italy where he's been sentenced to life in absentia for the killing of Leon Klinghoffer in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro. The Palestinian Authority wants him released.

On the outskirts of Baghdad, soldiers of the Army's 101st Airborne uncovered what commanders said was an elaborate bomb-making facility, all the earmarks, officers said, of a terrorist storehouse.

In Mosul, still a lot of unanswered questions and conflicting accounts surrounding the shooting incident that left at least seven Iraqis dead. Some residents said Marines fired without provocation. Others said the troops were defending themselves.

And, in Tikrit, there were checkpoints in force. Many complain the Kurdish soldiers were trying to oust Iraqi Arabs from their homes.

Back in Baghdad, more weaponry discovered. This missile, looking brand new, parked atop its launcher near a city street.

And, talk of money as well, indications that the Iraqi dinar, now essentially worthless, might temporarily be replaced by the U.S. dollar.

And, one sign that things are slowly returning to normal in the Iraqi capital, there was enough power and enough fuel for people to line up once again at the gas stations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, a new normal to be sure but a big change from the chaos just a few days ago.

Nic Robertson said as much on the program last night. Today, he began looking into how the order is being kept even in places beyond the reach of Iraqi police or American forces for that matter. Nic Robertson is in Baghdad tonight – Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, it is interesting to watch how that power vacuum created by the lack of an administration here is being filled, and one of the first communities to really grab hold of that vacuum and fill it in a way they want to see it filled is by the majority Shia Muslim community here. They are over 60 percent of the people in Iraq and we've seen it in a number of cities around the country.

But perhaps the best indication of how they get their grip on power, how they plan to hold that power, and how they plan to impose their will on neighborhoods, comes right on the outskirts of Baghdad in an area that used to be known as Saddam City, one of the poorest neighborhoods. In there, Shia Muslims through their religious leaders are now sending their own gunmen out of the streets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Weapons at the ready, faces hidden from the camera, vigilantes head out on a patrol of Baghdad's most rundown neighborhood. Down streets scarred by decades of poverty, these Shia Muslim gunmen are bringing their brand of law and order to the suburb that was until last week known as Saddam City.

(on camera): A day ago the sound of running gun battles and ambulance sirens echoed around these streets. Now it appears as if Baghdad's most volatile suburb is pulling back from the brink of chaos.

(voice-over): At a nearby mosque, itself under heavy armed guard, the would-be policemen pile up goods liberated from looters. Inside, stolen medical supplies, also retrieved from looters and dispensed to the needy.

The move toward stability in this community of one and a half million Shias orchestrated by its religious leaders without the help of U.S. troops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): These men are volunteers to restore security. They are armed not against the people but the troublemakers backed by the old regime to finish them off, to restore stability.

ROBERTSON: For years those who lived within the confines of this ruinous sprawling grid of fettered streets, chafed against the regime they daren't fight, their understanding of why they were downtrodden simple.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because we are Shia and we want Saddam and his government, they killed every – and anything, anything.

ROBERTSON: Today, a quick glance in the market tells all, rotting fruit the fare on offer for those accustomed to accepting second best. From those who cluster around our car whenever we stop, Saddam's ouster now setting aspirations to change that old order.

“We are happy with our leaders” he says. “They are organizing the city. We don't want an American military governor.”

Not all agree with the new order though, but unlike the days under Saddam, some brave enough to speak out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no law. You can't walk safely. Those who are holding machine guns, who can refuse them and who can take these things from them?

ROBERTSON: Much in former Saddam City is far from settled, like the suburb's new name, Saddar (ph) City, named after a Shia leader. Like the looting though, possession seems nine-tenths of the law. (END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Well, certainly that's the situation in Saddam City and it seems to be a situation replicated in other places around Iraq; that is, people beginning to take control over with lives, beginning to impose their own law and order, beginning to impose their own security.

It's not clear if at this time Saddam City will be renamed Saddar City if that will change, but that is the way the people who live there pretty much say they want it at this time. The thing everybody says that they still want here, and this is something we hear universally wherever we go, people continue to tell us they want electricity and they want it now – Anderson.

COOPER: Nic, it was fascinating in that story to see those Shia vigilante gunmen. Are they just going against looters or is there any evidence right now of revenge killings against Ba'ath Party officials and the like?

ROBERTSON: There have been revenge killings. We didn't see evidence of it. We've certainly been told about it. They even told us that that's what they were doing on some – that's what they had been doing before, which was trying to round up these former Ba'ath Party members, and certainly they do say, and others have said, that they – they do summarily execute people when they've been caught.

And that does obviously lead some people in the community that we were talking to there who voiced those opinions to raise some concerns about just who has the authority and why they should have it and why they should be able to assume and impose this, their own version of law and order?

COOPER: How do U.S. troops on the ground feel about and/or deal with these Shia vigilante gunmen?

ROBERTSON: Well, there's a feeling that this is an area where U.S. troops are not particularly welcome. Saddam City, Saddar City, is a very volatile area and troops do go there on occasion. They went to the hospital there yesterday morning but it was very clear to them that they were in an environment that wasn't particularly tolerant towards them.

Of course, as in many cities, there are different neighborhoods around the city are different and have a different feel. This particular neighborhood is quite a rough neighborhood and it's a neighborhood that says that they don't particularly want U.S. troops and that's the way they've been treated carefully by the Marines who patrol this part of the city.

They're treating them with respect and they're not going against their will, not – not setting up checkpoints around the city, staying outside of that neighborhood.

COOPER: And just very briefly, Nic, you mentioned everyone wants electricity, any timetable, any sense of when that might happen? ROBERTSON: Well, coalition forces here say that it could be a matter of weeks. I think perhaps they're trying to set the expectations a little lower because the people here had expectations that this would happen almost immediately once the troops arrived in the city.

Once the looting slowed down, the electricity is the next on the list so I think expectations – people are trying to lower expectations but we still don't have a firm idea. We've been told that it could be as little as three days but maybe more than that, maybe a week or so.

COOPER: All right, Nic, thanks very much this evening.

On to Mosul now in northern Iraq, Arabs, Kurds, and American forces making for a pretty volatile mixture tonight in that city. Kurdish forces helped liberate Mosul. American troops moved in and the ethnic Arabs who make up the majority of the population there do not seem very comfortable with either.

CNN's Ben Wedeman was in Mosul earlier today and joins us now from Erbil – Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson, the situation in Mosul still a very unstable, very unclear what direction it's going but what is very clear is that Mosul, as far as the U.S. forces are concerned, is not going to be easily subdued.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): An American helicopter flies low over central Mosul. The Americans control the skies over this predominantly Sunni Arab city. The ground is whole different matter. U.S. troops cling to an uneasy toehold in the governor's office in the center of the city and that's it.

Mosul, long a power base for Saddam's regime, is hardly celebrating what the coalition is calling its liberation. “We don't want the Americans here” they tell us.

Since the week began, at least ten Iraqis have been killed and many more wounded in clashes involving U.S. troops and local protesters. Until Tuesday afternoon, Kurdish forces, allies of the Americans, patrolled city center, their presence an irritant to the Arab population from the beginning. Now, Kurdish forces have pulled back to Kurdish parts of the city.

With tensions rising, Kurdish officials are trying to build bridges with Arab tribal leaders to avoid a showdown. The talk seems friendly enough but the outcome is as yet uncertain.

Central Mosul is now a tense no man's land, a vacuum open for exploitation by elements still loyal to Saddam Hussein, local militias, and common criminals.

On the outskirts of town, the Americans are trying to listen to local grievances. Arab villagers complain of marauding Kurdish gunmen. It's a complicated mix in which the Americans are just beginning to get their bearings.

CAPT. JAMES JARVIS, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Obviously we're in a period of instability somewhat. Any time you go from having a controlling regime to establishing a new government, you have a period of instability.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And, Anderson, basically Mosul has all the sort of divisions that well, could cause problems in Iraq, ethnic tribal sectarian and otherwise, so it's going to be a very difficult job imposing law and order in Mosul, let alone democracy.

COOPER: Well, Ben, in Mosul is it so much loyalty to Saddam or is it dislike of the Kurds?

WEDEMAN: Well, there's a certain amount of loyalty to Saddam but also it's always been really a bastion of Arab nationalism, real resistance to foreign occupation, foreign involvement, and just we've seen these two incidents that have taken place over the last two days.

One of them at least was linked to the fact that the Americans raised a flag over the governor's office and that really sent the local population into a rage. So, there is a good deal of lingering loyalty to Saddam Hussein but really it is this resistance to a foreign presence and that is really what's sending people here into this state of anger and resistance so to speak.

COOPER: And has there been a lot of looting in Mosul?

WEDEMAN: Really the first day there was a lot of looting. They sacked the local central – branch of the Central Bank and the university and various other places. The looting tapered off pretty quickly, largely as a result of local people setting up roadblocks, taking over neighborhoods to make sure that the looters wouldn't get into it. So, the looting, nothing compared to Baghdad for instance.

COOPER: All right, Ben Wedeman in Erbil, Iraq. Ben thanks very much.

As we mentioned at the top of tonight's broadcast, seven Americans, former POWs all are on their way home. They landed today at Ramstein Air Base in Germany and that's where CNN's Matthew Chance is – Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Anderson, and there was a lot of emotion and a lot of relief here at Landstuhl, Germany. Those seven rescued U.S. prisoners of war had waves and smiles for the awaiting cameras as they stepped off that U.S. military aircraft that had come in from Kuwait. There was even a grin from the injured Shoshana Johnson as she was carried off of that aircraft by stretcher.

It's been a long and very arduous journey over the past week or so for all of them, captured in Iraq in two separate incidents as U.S. forces advanced across the country, held for nearly two weeks often in isolation from one another and paraded, you'll remember, in front of the television cameras, certainly paraded in front of Iraqi television. Remember those scenes of Specialist Johnson looking absolutely terrified as she was asked questions by Iraqi journalists during that time.

Following that, some days after that, they were finally tracked down and rescued by U.S. Marines in the area of Somarah (ph) just outside Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. For the past two days also, they've been in Kuwait receiving whatever medical attention could be delivered there.

The process of debriefing has begun. That will continue here at Landstuhl. They'll be getting a thorough medical examination over the next few days. There will be psychological counseling, debriefing before that decision is made finally to send them back to the U.S. which is what, Anderson, all of them want very, very much.

COOPER: Matthew, have U.S. forces said how long it might be that they are in Ramstein at Landstuhl?

CHANCE: There have been no specific times mentioned but, as I say, there will have to be a full medical examination for all seven of them. There are further debriefings to be undertaken. There are also combat psychologists, specialist teams, that are at hand here and who are talking through all of the events of their sort of nearly two week ordeal before they can make that decision to go home. We're told they could be out of here, though, notwithstanding any further medical treatment for some of them, by the end of this weekend coming.

COOPER: All right, Matthew Chance, thanks very much from Landstuhl, Germany tonight.

Before the war began there was much angst and appraisals about exactly how much it would cost. Well, today, President Bush signed a $79 billion spending bill most of it to help pay for the war. Now, a lot of money to be sure, but so far the costs seem to be coming in under budget. Here's CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon – Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, according to the Pentagon they've spent so far about $20 billion on the war. If you count money that's in the pipeline that's definitely going to be spent at the end of this fiscal year it's more like $30 billion but that price tag is sure to grow as the United States remains in Iraq for the long haul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): As combat operations wind down, U.S. troops in Iraq are under growing pressure to focus on two uncompleted objectives, providing security for humanitarian relief, and finding weapons of mass destruction, the primary justification for the war. The U.S. remains convinced the weapons are there but well hidden.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I have every confidence we're going to find them. I mean the – but I don't think it's unusual that we haven't found them yet. I think it's going to take people telling us where they are.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. military is beginning to transition into what it calls Phase 4 stabilization operations. Under the plan, U.S. Marines will move out of Baghdad and be responsible for an area including roughly nine million Iraqis in the north.

Two other zones will fall under the authority of the U.S. Army, one for the southern part of the country, and one for five million people in and around Baghdad.

U.S. Commander General Tommy Franks pumped his fist in the air as he arrived at Baghdad International Airport but he kept his first ever visit to the city low key, consulting with his field generals inside one of Saddam Hussein's presidential palaces but not mixing with the Iraqi people. Sources say Franks will likely soon establish a headquarters in the Iraqi capital.

MCCHRYSTAL: It also gives the person who's making the decisions what we call the feeling of the mud between his toes. There's no replacing walking on the ground, leading your people, getting a feel for the situation, that you just can't get from any distance away.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. is just now beginning to total up the bill for the war which so far exceeds $20 billion and is projected to grow by roughly $2 billion a month through the rest of the year. The Pentagon says that's in line with the low end estimates of under $80 billion for a short war.

DOV ZAKHEIM, PENTAGON COMPTROLLER: At first blush from where we're looking it seems that once again our estimates played out pretty well.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, General Franks didn't make any public appearances in Baghdad. That was by design in order to not make it seem like the United States was spiking the ball in the end zone, so to speak. However, the scene at the – one of Saddam Hussein's presidential palaces was quite jovial and jocular.

According to a pool report filed by some of the few reporters that went with him, he inspected the palace, declared a lot of the opulence was a result of what he called the oil for palaces program, and then at one point somebody passed out cigars and they all sat around in one of Saddam's palaces and had a good smoke and talked about the job ahead – Anderson.

COOPER: Jamie, let's talk about the job ahead a little bit. General Franks, will he be taking up position in Baghdad at some point soon and, if so, any sense of a timetable when that might happen?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's not clear. Apparently the plan is to set up a headquarters in Baghdad for the military as well as for the civilian reconstruction program.

Whether General Franks will operate out of there or whether it will simply be one of his headquarters, we'll have to see. Of course, he has his main headquarters in Tampa, Florida, and a forward operating base in Qatar. He may now have another headquarters in Baghdad.

COOPER: Well, that was the thing they were always saying about that forward operating base in Qatar, they were saying that it's entirely mobile and theoretically could be moved somewhere. So, I guess the idea would be to move that into Baghdad, and technically the civilian component of the reconstruction operation he will report still to General Franks, is that correct?

MCINTYRE: He will because General Franks is the overall commander, although they stress here that it's really a parallel structure that will be going on more of a consultant than so much taking orders one from the other.

COOPER: All right, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon thanks.

We got a lot more to cover tonight as NEWSNIGHT continues. We have an update on the humanitarian situation in Iraq. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Last week we learned that being a doctor in Baghdad, not just carrying say a stethoscope but carrying a gun as well. People trying to save lives were putting their own lives at risk just by coming to work. Now, it seems there is a little bit less danger in hospitals but back to normal it is certainly not.

Here's CNN's Richard Blystone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD BLYSTONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The bombing, shelling, and shooting that brought the flood of civilian casualties also kept the hospital from coping. One doctor who wants to be anonymous told us the first day they came by the carload and out of every car there was one we could try to save but many hospital staff were away trying to save themselves and their families.

A week on help is arriving, sent from Qatar, brought and unloaded by U.S. Marines. These supplies made in India stacked up on hospital beds and trundled into wherever there's room. But what this big Baghdad medical center really needs is its people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are actually suffering from the shortage of the staff and the sub-staff personnel.

DR. MOHAMMED RAHMAN MANAD, IRAQI DOCTOR: Because there is actually no actual well communications with other cities and many, many of our staffs are afraid from the situations.

BLYSTONE: Even now no one at the center is quite sure how many patients are here, how many have died. Some of the dead are stacked in this trailer. You don't want to look. A thin stretched Marine logistical corps is doing what it can.

DOL. JOHN POMFRET, U.S. MARINE LOGISTICS OFFICER: When you look at security, medical care, water and electricity, I think we've come a long way in a short period of time.

BLYSTONE: Desperate people keep begging the Marines to turn on the electricity and the water to provide care for their babies, as though the military machine had the power to do anything.

(on camera): This hospital needs many things but like most institutions in Iraq, what it needs most is normality.

(voice-over): And part of normality is when the hospital works.

Richard Blystone, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Normality is certainly a hard thing to come by these days.

We wanted to get the latest on the aid situation in Iraq, so joining us now Andrew Natsios. He's the administrator for the U.S. Agency for International Development and he is in Washington tonight.

Thanks for being with us, Andrew. I'm sure if differs city to city in Iraq, no two cities alike from Umm Qasr to Baghdad, but if you can speak generally, what are the greatest needs right now?

ANDREW NATSIOS, ADMINISTRATOR, U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Well, the greatest needs in Iraq are clearly security first because in order to restore services we have to clean up the rest of what remains of the secret police, the Fedayeen, and the rest who are causing trouble here and there.

But water and electricity are clearly the thing people are asking us about most often everywhere in the country. It's an arid country. It's warm now and the electricity is necessary to pump the water and if the water is not being pumped then the toilets don't work.

This is, by the way, not a rural society. It's an urban society primarily and people have piped water, not well water. They don't take water out of the rivers directly. It's piped into their homes. They have indoor plumbing in many cases, and so if the electricity doesn't work and the water work you have a problem.

COOPER: It's also theoretically and potentially a rich country. I'm curious to know, you know, given just watching this on television it's often hard to get a sense or perspective on it. USAID has been involved in a lot of operations I'm sure of this size, of this scope. Where does this operation in Iraq fit in on the scale? I mean is it the worst you've ever seen, not so bad? What's your opinion?

NATSIOS: Oh, no, in terms of comparisons this is much better than Afghanistan or Kosovo or Bosnia. The destruction was actually relatively constrained. There's not been large population movements. There was no use of chemical and biological weapons which we were anticipating and we were afraid that Saddam might blow up the dams and flood much of the country.

None of those things happened. Our bigger problem is that for 15 years the public services of the country, the water system, the sewer system, the schools, the hospitals, have been allowed to deteriorate. There hasn't been a lot of investment.

And so, for example, in large portions of the south the water basically is just pumped out of the rivers without treatment. Some areas haven't had chlorine in ten years. That's why the child mortality rates are unusually high in Iraq for a middle income country.

COOPER: So, what does USAID do? I mean I know you have disaster response teams in various countries...

NATSIOS: Right.

COOPER: ...in the region, in Kuwait, in Jordan I imagine. How soon do you get on the ground once the security improves and what exactly do you do? Do you do it all yourselves or do you coordinate with all the different NGOs?

NATSIOS: We do some of it ourselves but mostly we work through NGOs, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and U.N. agencies like UNICEF, the World Food Program, UNHCR, and many of them have been on the ground in the U.N. agencies for ten years now. They have local staff.

WFP, for example, has contacted their 800 staff who are Iraqi citizens and all of them are staying by their posts guarding the warehouses of food, and so we have some infrastructure to work through that will help us do the response.

Our staff, though, has been in Umm Qasr now for two weeks, and we're in Al Basra down in the south, the second largest city. We're going to have a meeting very shortly with all of the food distributors in the city with the World Food Program to talk through how the whole system will be brought up to speed quickly so we can get food out. Food, however, is not the biggest problem at this point.

COOPER: All right, Andrew Natsios, USAID, I appreciate you joining us. Thanks very much.

NATSIOS: Thank you.

COOPER: As NEWSNIGHT continues, a terrorist is caught but now what to do with him, that is the question, the Abu Abbas dilemma.

Also, President Bush focuses on the economy, that and more in the next half hour but first, a break and then the latest news headlines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: President Bush is at the ranch in Crawford. His chief of staff stayed behind to actually make a little history at the White House and, as it turns out, a little news as well.

CNN senior White House correspondent John King joins us tonight from the White House with that -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, good evening to you.

One of the unanswered questions, of course: Where is Saddam Hussein, dead or alive? Chief of Staff Andy Card participating, the first participant in a White House Web site online chat tonight, with these five words, "I think he is dead," certain to stoke the debate over what happened to the Iraqi leader. Andy Card gave that answer in response to a questioner who typed in online, asking if there was any new information about Saddam Hussein, Andy Card typing back that he believes Saddam is dead. "I think he is dead. The good news is that his regime is no longer a threat to the people of Iraq, nor to the United States or our allies."

Now, White House officials saying this is just Andy Card's opinion. They say the United States has no definitive proof that Saddam Hussein is dead, but, certainly, an interesting viewpoint, because, as the president's right-hand man, Andy Card participates every morning in the president's national security briefing and has access to the most sensitive U.S. intelligence.

That question, that news headline made tonight on a day when the president traveled outside of Washington to salute not only the men and women who fought in the war, but also the sophisticated technology they used in their weaponry. You see the president here at the Boeing plant in St. Louis, Missouri, an FA-18 Hornet under construction there, Mr. Bush saluting that high technology as one of the reasons he says the war was settled so quickly and decisively.

Mr. Bush says now the challenge is post-war Iraq. He says the United Nations should move very quickly to lift the economic sanctions put in place after the first Gulf War. That would allow Iraq to sell its oil, that oil money, of course, critical to U.S. reconstruction efforts inside Iraq. And the president also offering quite an ambitious view. He says he believes the new Iraqi government will be up and running soon.

He says Iraq will be a multiethnic democracy. And, in comments sure to raise eyebrows among U.S. allies in the region who are not democratic, like Saudi Arabia, like Egypt, like Jordan, Mr. Bush says he believes this new democracy will be a model in the region.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We believe that people across the Middle East and across the world are weary of poverty, weary of oppression and yearn to be free.

(APPLAUSE)

BUSH: And all who know that hope, all who will work and sacrifice for freedom have a friend in the United States of America. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: White House officials acknowledging some nations in the region that provided help to the United States in winning the war might not appreciate the president's so enthusiastic endorsement of democracy in the region there, White House officials, though, say the president simply calling it as he sees it.

And, as you noted, Mr. Bush away from Washington for several days. He is at the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas, for an extended Easter weekend. When he's back to Washington next week, a focus still on the war effort, but, also, more and more time will be spent lobbying Congress on the economy and the Bush tax cut plan -- Anderson.

COOPER: John, it's interesting to hear him say that about other regimes out there. Was he talking specifically just about Syria and the Irans, or was he also talking about countries which have been allies to the U.S.? Egypt, for instance, comes to mind.

KING: Well, the president did not mention any countries, which is what makes it so curious. Obviously, Syria has been under the microscope, under some pressure and criticism from this administration in recent days. So, many here at the White House say that is the president's first thought, the unfriendly regimes in the region, if you will.

But White House officials also say, the president has made it clear in his private conversations with Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, with President Mubarak of Egypt, that he believes it is critical that they open up their countries, not that they go perhaps to full-bore democracy, but that they more steps to open up their countries to give citizens a right to air their disagreements with the governments.

And White House officials say, after this war, as the United States spends so much time, money and resources on building a new Iraq, the president will not shy away from speaking that message, even if it makes some traditional allies in the region a bit uneasy -- Anderson.

COOPER: And I'm sure a bit uneasy, it does make them.

John King at the White House, thanks very much.

There was a headline on Slate.com today. It sums up what the next year and a half may hold for the president. It said -- quote -- "The war against Saddam is over," it reads. Quote: "The war against Bush is on." Democratic presidential candidates have started doing what their counterparts did back in 1991. Different candidates, different wars, different Bush, same outcome?

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Yes, the symbolism was pretty clear on Tuesday. On income tax deadline day, the president called for a tax cut.

BUSH: ... totaling at least $550 billion.

GREENFIELD: But the message wasn't just about taxes, but about the economy. As it was today.

BUSH: In order for all Americans who are looking for work to find work, the Congress must pass this jobs package.

GREENFIELD: The turn to economic matters from a month's long focus on Iraq comes with an irresistible historical link: the fate of the last President Bush defeated for re-election a year and a half after victory in the first Gulf War.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has to pay attention to the economy, which his father didn't.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: '91 is not 2003.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democrats have been saying, "Like father, like son."

GREENFIELD (on camera): All of which raises two questions. How is the economy doing, and what does it mean politically?

(voice-over): The numbers are not that good. Two million jobs lost in the last two years. Some 465,000 just in the last two months. Economic growth that's been close to no growth at all.

But not all the news is bad. Unemployment is 5.8 percent. That's higher than two years ago, but not historically high.

Consumer confidence in the last month bumped up, but that may be a reaction to the war news. The Dow Jones average is up 10 percent in the last month, but down some 28 percent from its 2000 high.

But the lurking fear is that some fundamental dilemmas, overcapacity in some industries, the lingering post-9/11 risk aversion, may make the long-term economic news bad. And that generally means bad news for any incumbent, despite the president's 70-plus percent job approval rating. In fact, the only president re- elected in bad economic times was FDR in 1936, because the country believed he was trying hard to end the depression.

Moreover, voters tend to be unforgiving in the face of bad news. In 1980, an oil embargo helped plague Jimmy Carter with inflation and an industrial recession and long gas lines. He lost big.

And the first President Bush lost, even though the recession had ended almost a year before the 1992 election. Right now, the president gets mixed marks on the economy and on his tax cut proposals. So we are again left with more questions than answers. Two, in fact. First, will the economy next year produce the kinds of impacts voters feel directly? Job losses, for instance. And if it does, will voters reward the president for trying to make things better or blame him for failing?

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: The other question, of course: Will the economy be the No. 1 thing on voters' mind come election time? We'll see.

Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT: A wanted terrorist is in custody, but exactly who wants him now?

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, they say possession is nine-tenths of the law, except, perhaps, when it comes to a Palestinian fugitive from Italian law captured by American forces in Iraq. More now on exactly who wants Abul Abbas and who wants to keep him.

Here's CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Now that the U.S. has Abul Abbas in custody, the question is what to do with him?

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: We're looking at the legal issues and possibilities and have nothing to say right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abul Abbas personally condemned the attack aboard the Achille Lauro.

ENSOR: Abbas was found guilty in absentia in Italy in the 1985 killing of disabled American tourist Leon Klinghoffer on the seized cruise ship the Achille Lauro, murdered by Palestinian guerrillas under Abbas' command.

Italy has asked for Abbas' extradition to serve a life sentence. Good idea, says a former Justice Department official.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do we want to cause more problems for ourselves by bringing him here on something that we don't even think we have the evidence for right now? I would say let's go with the Italian solution.

ENSOR: But U.S. officials want to question Abbas and figure out whether he has had any role in supporting terrorism in more recent years. Did he help Saddam Hussein pay families of Palestinian suicide bombers? Did he help the Iraqis train terrorists at any point? Should he face charges in the U.S? BRIG. GEN. VINCENT BROOKS, CENTCOM SPOKESMAN: Abul Abbas is a terrorist. He was a terrorist. He remains a terrorist.

ENSOR: Abul Abbas has lived openly and freely in Baghdad, traveling often to the Gaza Strip since the 1995 signing of a Palestinian-Israeli agreement regarding immunity for actions taken prior to the Oslo Accords. Palestinian officials are pressing the U.S. to free him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have contacted the American administration this morning, and I urged the American administration to honor and respect the agreement signed.

ENSOR: But U.S. officials respond, while Israel is bound by those agreements, the U.S. is not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The United States is not a party to that or any amnesty arrangements regarding Abul Abbas.

ENSOR (on camera): U.S. officials say Abbas did try to flee Iraq to Syria, but was turned back at the border by the Syrians. He now faces a lot of American questions, presumably followed by a long period in prison, the only question being: Where?

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, the question we want answered is, so, does catching Abul Abbas really mean anything after all? We're going to talk with an expert in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, more now on the fate of Abul Abbas with Jim Walsh. He's an expert on international terrorism at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government and joins us now from Boston.

So, Jim, how significant an arrest is this? Does it really matter?

JIM WALSH, KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: Well, I think this is more symbolic than it is substantive.

Clearly, Abbas was a terrorist, famously associated with the hijacking of the Achille Lauro. But then, in 1993, following the Oslo accord, the beginning of a peace agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians, he renounced terrorism. And, in fact, in 1998, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that he was immune from prosecution. That's why they allow him back into Gaza.

And he's condemned the 9/11 attacks. And he attacked al Qaeda as not being something that should be associated with the Palestinian cause. So he was a terrorist, but he has renounced all that and hasn't done a lot in a while. COOPER: But, nevertheless, what's done is done. He was involved. His group was involved in the Achille Lauro. Leon Klinghoffer was killed, this disabled man, thrown overboard after being shot. Symbolically, it sends a message, does it not?

WALSH: Well, clearly, this guy is guilty of these crimes that he committed in the past. He was the mastermind of the operation, even though he was not one of the four terrorists who was on the ship at the time. But, clearly, he was the guy calling the shots.

But, as I say, there was a negotiated amnesty between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And while the U.S. -- you heard earlier, I think, in David's report, that the U.S. says that they're not bound by that. That would be the Oslo II accords. In fact, those accords were signed in Washington under President Clinton. And the United States was a witness to those accords. And it was clear that the U.S. was backing those accords. So they're sort of playing both sides on this one.

COOPER: But, I guess, the way around that being, send this guy to Italy, where he has been convicted already in absentia.

WALSH: Absolutely. And I think that's the likely outcome here, in part because the Department of Justice announced that it doesn't have an outstanding warrant or indictment against the guy.

So, the folks who do have an active legal case against him are the Italians. The Italians have requested extradition. And, moreover, Prime Minister Berlusconi at least vocally supported U.S. policy in Iraq at a time when the opposition was against him, his public was against him, and the Vatican was against him. So I think it's likely that the U.S. -- if they want him, the U.S. is likely to give him to them.

COOPER: Do you think the Palestinian Authority, though, is really likely to push this thing, to push support for Abul Abbas? Just from a public relations standpoint, it doesn't seem like a great idea.

WALSH: Anderson, I think you're right.

It's a tough argument to make. Clearly, that provision -- it's Article 16 of the Oslo II agreements. And if you read it, it's plain as day. On the other hand, Oslo, one could debate whether it is even in effect now. The Israelis broke it. Palestinians broke it. How much Oslo is left at the end of the day is subject to debate. And, clearly, the Palestinians have other issues to deal with right now, Abbas aside. He was never very popular.

He was kicked off the PLO executive committee because he was an embarrassment. So I don't know, really, how far they're going to push this.

COOPER: All right, so it sounds like he is probably going to end up in Italy. Let's just see where that goes. Let's talk briefly about Syria. Does this look like saber- rattling? Some tough words from the U.S., does it seem like saber- rattling to you, though, at this point?

WALSH: Yes, but it may saber-rattling that's effective.

I think it is highly unlikely that the U.S. is going to take military action against Syria. But the question is, can the Syrians afford to call that bluff right now? President Bush is fresh off an apparent victory in Iraq. He has troops on the ground. And while it is unlikely he would intervene militarily, I don't know if the Syrians can really afford to take that chance.

One of the ironies here connecting these two stories is that the Syrians actually prevented Abbas from crossing into Syria on two different occasions. So, on the one hand, we're sort of hassling Syria because we think there may be Iraqis there, but the Syrians have been helpful in the war on terrorism and also refused to take Abbas.

COOPER: Do you think it is going to work, though? Just very briefly, do you think the Syrians, maybe away from the limelight -- give it a couple weeks -- are going to start handing over some of these Iraqi officials who have allegedly gone over there?

WALSH: Well, if they're there -- and, of course, there's no evidence in the public domain -- but if they're there, I think the Syrians have very few alternatives. And it think it would be handled quietly. It may not be tomorrow. It may not be a month from now, but I would think that something is going to be worked out here.

COOPER: All right, Jim Walsh, thanks very much. Good to talk to you, as always.

WALSH: Thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT: images of war frozen in photographs.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: The latest now in our series of still photographers working in Iraq, tonight, Ben Lowey, who is on assignment for "TIME" magazine. You probably don't know his name, but you probably know some of his photos, at least one, this one a pretty memorable image from early in the war, the suspect, a U.S. soldier, in the grenade attack on members of the 101st Airborne in Kuwait.

Ben described for us what the attack was like and what he has seen in his travels throughout Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BENJAMIN LOWY, "TIME": You just woke up with a loud boom. And people in our tents started screaming. People weren't sure if that was a Scud attack if they should put their gas mask on, if we were being attacked.

After an initial period of realizing it was some kind of a terrorist attack, people started taking positions and guarding the perimeter of the little pad of tents that we had. And I just grabbed my cameras and started photographing the evacuation of the wounded. I actually don't think morale dropped as much as everyone thought it was going to. If anything, there were more antsy to get in to the war.

My name is Benjamin Lowy and I'm a photographer with Corbis and "TIME" magazine. I just graduated. And a lot of the 1st and 2nd lieutenants were exactly just my age. It's hard to remain objective when you become someone's friend. We have a job and we go out and do it. I do my photography and they do their soldiering.

When you're surrounded by the members of your unit, and they're tight-knit groups, that is your family while you're deployed. In the end, they rely on the guy next to them in battle as much as they have to rely on themselves. And that's a bond of friendship.

I was on a job for about a week and a half with the 101st. They were trying to arrange the distribution of food and water to the citizens. No one really talked to the civilians as much as they should have. And the government was handing out plenty of food. But when I would speak to some of the people, they were like: We have plenty of food as it is. We just really need water.

Some of the U.S. forces went to drop off food with some bedouins living outside An Najaf. And they had complained that they didn't need food as much as they really needed fresh water, because the girl that was clinging to that other girl were sick because they had been drinking raw sewage water.

The types images that I've taken in the last couple of days have been the looting in the suburbs of Baghdad. And people just rolled in and took anything they could, like couches, doors. Even the plumbing was taken. They have their little spot where they put all their material. And then cars drove by, tractors. They loaded them up. They drove away. They came back later on. If there was anything to take away from the houses of this regime that these people apparently -- that the Iraqi civilians hated so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: The words and images of Ben Lowy, "TIME" magazine.

We have a lot ahead in our next hour: the latest on the American POWs as they head home, while back in Baghdad, in the bank district, it is the wild, wild West. And in the wild, wild East, did Kim Jong Il get the message? News from Pyongyang -- also, the latest headlines straight ahead.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 16, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening from New York, every one. Aaron is off tonight. I'm Anderson Cooper.
It was a day of images for the history books. An American commander set foot in Baghdad. Lights started going on in the city. Tempers continue to flare and, to be sure, dangers remain but little by little, day by day, the news from Baghdad seems to be improving. President Bush even allowed himself his first public smile at how things are going.

And, at an air base in Western Europe, an image seven families will not soon forget.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): The seven American former POWs are one step closer to home tonight. They arrived in German for further treatment, next stop the United States.

Throughout Baghdad on Wednesday, demonstrations, some like this one relatively small, more security they want, a quicker return of essential services.

There were some large demonstrations as well. These are Shiites celebrating a holy day. Neither protest would have been allowed or even imagined under Saddam Hussein.

Slowly, hospitals are working again but the Red Cross says it is not easy.

ROLAND HUGUENIN-BENJAMIN, INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS: Right now some of them are operating at half capacity. We are desperately trying to reestablish power for them because a hospital can not work at all if it doesn't have electricity and water.

COOPER: Difficult to believe but today was the one-week anniversary of that memorable moment when the statue fell, one week ago, hardly any time at all.

MAJ. GEN. STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, JOINTS CHIEFS OF STAFF: We have service people trying to bring stability to an area and having elements of whatever, a party or group, trying to oppose that.

COOPER: There was time today for a short visit by General Tommy Franks, the man in overall charge of the war on the ground. He landed just outside the city at the airport protected by American tanks.

Inside the city, big crowds surrounded the Iraqi man appointed to be the new interim governor of Baghdad, he too protected by U.S. forces.

U.S. forces still hold Palestinian terrorist Abu Abbas, captured by Special Forces and Marines Monday night, the question now what to do with him. He may wind up in Italy where he's been sentenced to life in absentia for the killing of Leon Klinghoffer in the hijacking of the cruise ship Achille Lauro. The Palestinian Authority wants him released.

On the outskirts of Baghdad, soldiers of the Army's 101st Airborne uncovered what commanders said was an elaborate bomb-making facility, all the earmarks, officers said, of a terrorist storehouse.

In Mosul, still a lot of unanswered questions and conflicting accounts surrounding the shooting incident that left at least seven Iraqis dead. Some residents said Marines fired without provocation. Others said the troops were defending themselves.

And, in Tikrit, there were checkpoints in force. Many complain the Kurdish soldiers were trying to oust Iraqi Arabs from their homes.

Back in Baghdad, more weaponry discovered. This missile, looking brand new, parked atop its launcher near a city street.

And, talk of money as well, indications that the Iraqi dinar, now essentially worthless, might temporarily be replaced by the U.S. dollar.

And, one sign that things are slowly returning to normal in the Iraqi capital, there was enough power and enough fuel for people to line up once again at the gas stations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, a new normal to be sure but a big change from the chaos just a few days ago.

Nic Robertson said as much on the program last night. Today, he began looking into how the order is being kept even in places beyond the reach of Iraqi police or American forces for that matter. Nic Robertson is in Baghdad tonight – Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, it is interesting to watch how that power vacuum created by the lack of an administration here is being filled, and one of the first communities to really grab hold of that vacuum and fill it in a way they want to see it filled is by the majority Shia Muslim community here. They are over 60 percent of the people in Iraq and we've seen it in a number of cities around the country.

But perhaps the best indication of how they get their grip on power, how they plan to hold that power, and how they plan to impose their will on neighborhoods, comes right on the outskirts of Baghdad in an area that used to be known as Saddam City, one of the poorest neighborhoods. In there, Shia Muslims through their religious leaders are now sending their own gunmen out of the streets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Weapons at the ready, faces hidden from the camera, vigilantes head out on a patrol of Baghdad's most rundown neighborhood. Down streets scarred by decades of poverty, these Shia Muslim gunmen are bringing their brand of law and order to the suburb that was until last week known as Saddam City.

(on camera): A day ago the sound of running gun battles and ambulance sirens echoed around these streets. Now it appears as if Baghdad's most volatile suburb is pulling back from the brink of chaos.

(voice-over): At a nearby mosque, itself under heavy armed guard, the would-be policemen pile up goods liberated from looters. Inside, stolen medical supplies, also retrieved from looters and dispensed to the needy.

The move toward stability in this community of one and a half million Shias orchestrated by its religious leaders without the help of U.S. troops.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): These men are volunteers to restore security. They are armed not against the people but the troublemakers backed by the old regime to finish them off, to restore stability.

ROBERTSON: For years those who lived within the confines of this ruinous sprawling grid of fettered streets, chafed against the regime they daren't fight, their understanding of why they were downtrodden simple.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because we are Shia and we want Saddam and his government, they killed every – and anything, anything.

ROBERTSON: Today, a quick glance in the market tells all, rotting fruit the fare on offer for those accustomed to accepting second best. From those who cluster around our car whenever we stop, Saddam's ouster now setting aspirations to change that old order.

“We are happy with our leaders” he says. “They are organizing the city. We don't want an American military governor.”

Not all agree with the new order though, but unlike the days under Saddam, some brave enough to speak out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no law. You can't walk safely. Those who are holding machine guns, who can refuse them and who can take these things from them?

ROBERTSON: Much in former Saddam City is far from settled, like the suburb's new name, Saddar (ph) City, named after a Shia leader. Like the looting though, possession seems nine-tenths of the law. (END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Well, certainly that's the situation in Saddam City and it seems to be a situation replicated in other places around Iraq; that is, people beginning to take control over with lives, beginning to impose their own law and order, beginning to impose their own security.

It's not clear if at this time Saddam City will be renamed Saddar City if that will change, but that is the way the people who live there pretty much say they want it at this time. The thing everybody says that they still want here, and this is something we hear universally wherever we go, people continue to tell us they want electricity and they want it now – Anderson.

COOPER: Nic, it was fascinating in that story to see those Shia vigilante gunmen. Are they just going against looters or is there any evidence right now of revenge killings against Ba'ath Party officials and the like?

ROBERTSON: There have been revenge killings. We didn't see evidence of it. We've certainly been told about it. They even told us that that's what they were doing on some – that's what they had been doing before, which was trying to round up these former Ba'ath Party members, and certainly they do say, and others have said, that they – they do summarily execute people when they've been caught.

And that does obviously lead some people in the community that we were talking to there who voiced those opinions to raise some concerns about just who has the authority and why they should have it and why they should be able to assume and impose this, their own version of law and order?

COOPER: How do U.S. troops on the ground feel about and/or deal with these Shia vigilante gunmen?

ROBERTSON: Well, there's a feeling that this is an area where U.S. troops are not particularly welcome. Saddam City, Saddar City, is a very volatile area and troops do go there on occasion. They went to the hospital there yesterday morning but it was very clear to them that they were in an environment that wasn't particularly tolerant towards them.

Of course, as in many cities, there are different neighborhoods around the city are different and have a different feel. This particular neighborhood is quite a rough neighborhood and it's a neighborhood that says that they don't particularly want U.S. troops and that's the way they've been treated carefully by the Marines who patrol this part of the city.

They're treating them with respect and they're not going against their will, not – not setting up checkpoints around the city, staying outside of that neighborhood.

COOPER: And just very briefly, Nic, you mentioned everyone wants electricity, any timetable, any sense of when that might happen? ROBERTSON: Well, coalition forces here say that it could be a matter of weeks. I think perhaps they're trying to set the expectations a little lower because the people here had expectations that this would happen almost immediately once the troops arrived in the city.

Once the looting slowed down, the electricity is the next on the list so I think expectations – people are trying to lower expectations but we still don't have a firm idea. We've been told that it could be as little as three days but maybe more than that, maybe a week or so.

COOPER: All right, Nic, thanks very much this evening.

On to Mosul now in northern Iraq, Arabs, Kurds, and American forces making for a pretty volatile mixture tonight in that city. Kurdish forces helped liberate Mosul. American troops moved in and the ethnic Arabs who make up the majority of the population there do not seem very comfortable with either.

CNN's Ben Wedeman was in Mosul earlier today and joins us now from Erbil – Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson, the situation in Mosul still a very unstable, very unclear what direction it's going but what is very clear is that Mosul, as far as the U.S. forces are concerned, is not going to be easily subdued.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): An American helicopter flies low over central Mosul. The Americans control the skies over this predominantly Sunni Arab city. The ground is whole different matter. U.S. troops cling to an uneasy toehold in the governor's office in the center of the city and that's it.

Mosul, long a power base for Saddam's regime, is hardly celebrating what the coalition is calling its liberation. “We don't want the Americans here” they tell us.

Since the week began, at least ten Iraqis have been killed and many more wounded in clashes involving U.S. troops and local protesters. Until Tuesday afternoon, Kurdish forces, allies of the Americans, patrolled city center, their presence an irritant to the Arab population from the beginning. Now, Kurdish forces have pulled back to Kurdish parts of the city.

With tensions rising, Kurdish officials are trying to build bridges with Arab tribal leaders to avoid a showdown. The talk seems friendly enough but the outcome is as yet uncertain.

Central Mosul is now a tense no man's land, a vacuum open for exploitation by elements still loyal to Saddam Hussein, local militias, and common criminals.

On the outskirts of town, the Americans are trying to listen to local grievances. Arab villagers complain of marauding Kurdish gunmen. It's a complicated mix in which the Americans are just beginning to get their bearings.

CAPT. JAMES JARVIS, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Obviously we're in a period of instability somewhat. Any time you go from having a controlling regime to establishing a new government, you have a period of instability.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And, Anderson, basically Mosul has all the sort of divisions that well, could cause problems in Iraq, ethnic tribal sectarian and otherwise, so it's going to be a very difficult job imposing law and order in Mosul, let alone democracy.

COOPER: Well, Ben, in Mosul is it so much loyalty to Saddam or is it dislike of the Kurds?

WEDEMAN: Well, there's a certain amount of loyalty to Saddam but also it's always been really a bastion of Arab nationalism, real resistance to foreign occupation, foreign involvement, and just we've seen these two incidents that have taken place over the last two days.

One of them at least was linked to the fact that the Americans raised a flag over the governor's office and that really sent the local population into a rage. So, there is a good deal of lingering loyalty to Saddam Hussein but really it is this resistance to a foreign presence and that is really what's sending people here into this state of anger and resistance so to speak.

COOPER: And has there been a lot of looting in Mosul?

WEDEMAN: Really the first day there was a lot of looting. They sacked the local central – branch of the Central Bank and the university and various other places. The looting tapered off pretty quickly, largely as a result of local people setting up roadblocks, taking over neighborhoods to make sure that the looters wouldn't get into it. So, the looting, nothing compared to Baghdad for instance.

COOPER: All right, Ben Wedeman in Erbil, Iraq. Ben thanks very much.

As we mentioned at the top of tonight's broadcast, seven Americans, former POWs all are on their way home. They landed today at Ramstein Air Base in Germany and that's where CNN's Matthew Chance is – Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Anderson, and there was a lot of emotion and a lot of relief here at Landstuhl, Germany. Those seven rescued U.S. prisoners of war had waves and smiles for the awaiting cameras as they stepped off that U.S. military aircraft that had come in from Kuwait. There was even a grin from the injured Shoshana Johnson as she was carried off of that aircraft by stretcher.

It's been a long and very arduous journey over the past week or so for all of them, captured in Iraq in two separate incidents as U.S. forces advanced across the country, held for nearly two weeks often in isolation from one another and paraded, you'll remember, in front of the television cameras, certainly paraded in front of Iraqi television. Remember those scenes of Specialist Johnson looking absolutely terrified as she was asked questions by Iraqi journalists during that time.

Following that, some days after that, they were finally tracked down and rescued by U.S. Marines in the area of Somarah (ph) just outside Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit. For the past two days also, they've been in Kuwait receiving whatever medical attention could be delivered there.

The process of debriefing has begun. That will continue here at Landstuhl. They'll be getting a thorough medical examination over the next few days. There will be psychological counseling, debriefing before that decision is made finally to send them back to the U.S. which is what, Anderson, all of them want very, very much.

COOPER: Matthew, have U.S. forces said how long it might be that they are in Ramstein at Landstuhl?

CHANCE: There have been no specific times mentioned but, as I say, there will have to be a full medical examination for all seven of them. There are further debriefings to be undertaken. There are also combat psychologists, specialist teams, that are at hand here and who are talking through all of the events of their sort of nearly two week ordeal before they can make that decision to go home. We're told they could be out of here, though, notwithstanding any further medical treatment for some of them, by the end of this weekend coming.

COOPER: All right, Matthew Chance, thanks very much from Landstuhl, Germany tonight.

Before the war began there was much angst and appraisals about exactly how much it would cost. Well, today, President Bush signed a $79 billion spending bill most of it to help pay for the war. Now, a lot of money to be sure, but so far the costs seem to be coming in under budget. Here's CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon – Jamie.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, according to the Pentagon they've spent so far about $20 billion on the war. If you count money that's in the pipeline that's definitely going to be spent at the end of this fiscal year it's more like $30 billion but that price tag is sure to grow as the United States remains in Iraq for the long haul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): As combat operations wind down, U.S. troops in Iraq are under growing pressure to focus on two uncompleted objectives, providing security for humanitarian relief, and finding weapons of mass destruction, the primary justification for the war. The U.S. remains convinced the weapons are there but well hidden.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I have every confidence we're going to find them. I mean the – but I don't think it's unusual that we haven't found them yet. I think it's going to take people telling us where they are.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. military is beginning to transition into what it calls Phase 4 stabilization operations. Under the plan, U.S. Marines will move out of Baghdad and be responsible for an area including roughly nine million Iraqis in the north.

Two other zones will fall under the authority of the U.S. Army, one for the southern part of the country, and one for five million people in and around Baghdad.

U.S. Commander General Tommy Franks pumped his fist in the air as he arrived at Baghdad International Airport but he kept his first ever visit to the city low key, consulting with his field generals inside one of Saddam Hussein's presidential palaces but not mixing with the Iraqi people. Sources say Franks will likely soon establish a headquarters in the Iraqi capital.

MCCHRYSTAL: It also gives the person who's making the decisions what we call the feeling of the mud between his toes. There's no replacing walking on the ground, leading your people, getting a feel for the situation, that you just can't get from any distance away.

MCINTYRE: The U.S. is just now beginning to total up the bill for the war which so far exceeds $20 billion and is projected to grow by roughly $2 billion a month through the rest of the year. The Pentagon says that's in line with the low end estimates of under $80 billion for a short war.

DOV ZAKHEIM, PENTAGON COMPTROLLER: At first blush from where we're looking it seems that once again our estimates played out pretty well.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, General Franks didn't make any public appearances in Baghdad. That was by design in order to not make it seem like the United States was spiking the ball in the end zone, so to speak. However, the scene at the – one of Saddam Hussein's presidential palaces was quite jovial and jocular.

According to a pool report filed by some of the few reporters that went with him, he inspected the palace, declared a lot of the opulence was a result of what he called the oil for palaces program, and then at one point somebody passed out cigars and they all sat around in one of Saddam's palaces and had a good smoke and talked about the job ahead – Anderson.

COOPER: Jamie, let's talk about the job ahead a little bit. General Franks, will he be taking up position in Baghdad at some point soon and, if so, any sense of a timetable when that might happen?

MCINTYRE: Well, it's not clear. Apparently the plan is to set up a headquarters in Baghdad for the military as well as for the civilian reconstruction program.

Whether General Franks will operate out of there or whether it will simply be one of his headquarters, we'll have to see. Of course, he has his main headquarters in Tampa, Florida, and a forward operating base in Qatar. He may now have another headquarters in Baghdad.

COOPER: Well, that was the thing they were always saying about that forward operating base in Qatar, they were saying that it's entirely mobile and theoretically could be moved somewhere. So, I guess the idea would be to move that into Baghdad, and technically the civilian component of the reconstruction operation he will report still to General Franks, is that correct?

MCINTYRE: He will because General Franks is the overall commander, although they stress here that it's really a parallel structure that will be going on more of a consultant than so much taking orders one from the other.

COOPER: All right, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon thanks.

We got a lot more to cover tonight as NEWSNIGHT continues. We have an update on the humanitarian situation in Iraq. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Last week we learned that being a doctor in Baghdad, not just carrying say a stethoscope but carrying a gun as well. People trying to save lives were putting their own lives at risk just by coming to work. Now, it seems there is a little bit less danger in hospitals but back to normal it is certainly not.

Here's CNN's Richard Blystone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD BLYSTONE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The bombing, shelling, and shooting that brought the flood of civilian casualties also kept the hospital from coping. One doctor who wants to be anonymous told us the first day they came by the carload and out of every car there was one we could try to save but many hospital staff were away trying to save themselves and their families.

A week on help is arriving, sent from Qatar, brought and unloaded by U.S. Marines. These supplies made in India stacked up on hospital beds and trundled into wherever there's room. But what this big Baghdad medical center really needs is its people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are actually suffering from the shortage of the staff and the sub-staff personnel.

DR. MOHAMMED RAHMAN MANAD, IRAQI DOCTOR: Because there is actually no actual well communications with other cities and many, many of our staffs are afraid from the situations.

BLYSTONE: Even now no one at the center is quite sure how many patients are here, how many have died. Some of the dead are stacked in this trailer. You don't want to look. A thin stretched Marine logistical corps is doing what it can.

DOL. JOHN POMFRET, U.S. MARINE LOGISTICS OFFICER: When you look at security, medical care, water and electricity, I think we've come a long way in a short period of time.

BLYSTONE: Desperate people keep begging the Marines to turn on the electricity and the water to provide care for their babies, as though the military machine had the power to do anything.

(on camera): This hospital needs many things but like most institutions in Iraq, what it needs most is normality.

(voice-over): And part of normality is when the hospital works.

Richard Blystone, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Normality is certainly a hard thing to come by these days.

We wanted to get the latest on the aid situation in Iraq, so joining us now Andrew Natsios. He's the administrator for the U.S. Agency for International Development and he is in Washington tonight.

Thanks for being with us, Andrew. I'm sure if differs city to city in Iraq, no two cities alike from Umm Qasr to Baghdad, but if you can speak generally, what are the greatest needs right now?

ANDREW NATSIOS, ADMINISTRATOR, U.S. AGENCY FOR INTERNATIONAL DEVELOPMENT: Well, the greatest needs in Iraq are clearly security first because in order to restore services we have to clean up the rest of what remains of the secret police, the Fedayeen, and the rest who are causing trouble here and there.

But water and electricity are clearly the thing people are asking us about most often everywhere in the country. It's an arid country. It's warm now and the electricity is necessary to pump the water and if the water is not being pumped then the toilets don't work.

This is, by the way, not a rural society. It's an urban society primarily and people have piped water, not well water. They don't take water out of the rivers directly. It's piped into their homes. They have indoor plumbing in many cases, and so if the electricity doesn't work and the water work you have a problem.

COOPER: It's also theoretically and potentially a rich country. I'm curious to know, you know, given just watching this on television it's often hard to get a sense or perspective on it. USAID has been involved in a lot of operations I'm sure of this size, of this scope. Where does this operation in Iraq fit in on the scale? I mean is it the worst you've ever seen, not so bad? What's your opinion?

NATSIOS: Oh, no, in terms of comparisons this is much better than Afghanistan or Kosovo or Bosnia. The destruction was actually relatively constrained. There's not been large population movements. There was no use of chemical and biological weapons which we were anticipating and we were afraid that Saddam might blow up the dams and flood much of the country.

None of those things happened. Our bigger problem is that for 15 years the public services of the country, the water system, the sewer system, the schools, the hospitals, have been allowed to deteriorate. There hasn't been a lot of investment.

And so, for example, in large portions of the south the water basically is just pumped out of the rivers without treatment. Some areas haven't had chlorine in ten years. That's why the child mortality rates are unusually high in Iraq for a middle income country.

COOPER: So, what does USAID do? I mean I know you have disaster response teams in various countries...

NATSIOS: Right.

COOPER: ...in the region, in Kuwait, in Jordan I imagine. How soon do you get on the ground once the security improves and what exactly do you do? Do you do it all yourselves or do you coordinate with all the different NGOs?

NATSIOS: We do some of it ourselves but mostly we work through NGOs, the International Committee of the Red Cross, and U.N. agencies like UNICEF, the World Food Program, UNHCR, and many of them have been on the ground in the U.N. agencies for ten years now. They have local staff.

WFP, for example, has contacted their 800 staff who are Iraqi citizens and all of them are staying by their posts guarding the warehouses of food, and so we have some infrastructure to work through that will help us do the response.

Our staff, though, has been in Umm Qasr now for two weeks, and we're in Al Basra down in the south, the second largest city. We're going to have a meeting very shortly with all of the food distributors in the city with the World Food Program to talk through how the whole system will be brought up to speed quickly so we can get food out. Food, however, is not the biggest problem at this point.

COOPER: All right, Andrew Natsios, USAID, I appreciate you joining us. Thanks very much.

NATSIOS: Thank you.

COOPER: As NEWSNIGHT continues, a terrorist is caught but now what to do with him, that is the question, the Abu Abbas dilemma.

Also, President Bush focuses on the economy, that and more in the next half hour but first, a break and then the latest news headlines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: President Bush is at the ranch in Crawford. His chief of staff stayed behind to actually make a little history at the White House and, as it turns out, a little news as well.

CNN senior White House correspondent John King joins us tonight from the White House with that -- John.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, good evening to you.

One of the unanswered questions, of course: Where is Saddam Hussein, dead or alive? Chief of Staff Andy Card participating, the first participant in a White House Web site online chat tonight, with these five words, "I think he is dead," certain to stoke the debate over what happened to the Iraqi leader. Andy Card gave that answer in response to a questioner who typed in online, asking if there was any new information about Saddam Hussein, Andy Card typing back that he believes Saddam is dead. "I think he is dead. The good news is that his regime is no longer a threat to the people of Iraq, nor to the United States or our allies."

Now, White House officials saying this is just Andy Card's opinion. They say the United States has no definitive proof that Saddam Hussein is dead, but, certainly, an interesting viewpoint, because, as the president's right-hand man, Andy Card participates every morning in the president's national security briefing and has access to the most sensitive U.S. intelligence.

That question, that news headline made tonight on a day when the president traveled outside of Washington to salute not only the men and women who fought in the war, but also the sophisticated technology they used in their weaponry. You see the president here at the Boeing plant in St. Louis, Missouri, an FA-18 Hornet under construction there, Mr. Bush saluting that high technology as one of the reasons he says the war was settled so quickly and decisively.

Mr. Bush says now the challenge is post-war Iraq. He says the United Nations should move very quickly to lift the economic sanctions put in place after the first Gulf War. That would allow Iraq to sell its oil, that oil money, of course, critical to U.S. reconstruction efforts inside Iraq. And the president also offering quite an ambitious view. He says he believes the new Iraqi government will be up and running soon.

He says Iraq will be a multiethnic democracy. And, in comments sure to raise eyebrows among U.S. allies in the region who are not democratic, like Saudi Arabia, like Egypt, like Jordan, Mr. Bush says he believes this new democracy will be a model in the region.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We believe that people across the Middle East and across the world are weary of poverty, weary of oppression and yearn to be free.

(APPLAUSE)

BUSH: And all who know that hope, all who will work and sacrifice for freedom have a friend in the United States of America. (END VIDEO CLIP)

KING: White House officials acknowledging some nations in the region that provided help to the United States in winning the war might not appreciate the president's so enthusiastic endorsement of democracy in the region there, White House officials, though, say the president simply calling it as he sees it.

And, as you noted, Mr. Bush away from Washington for several days. He is at the Bush ranch in Crawford, Texas, for an extended Easter weekend. When he's back to Washington next week, a focus still on the war effort, but, also, more and more time will be spent lobbying Congress on the economy and the Bush tax cut plan -- Anderson.

COOPER: John, it's interesting to hear him say that about other regimes out there. Was he talking specifically just about Syria and the Irans, or was he also talking about countries which have been allies to the U.S.? Egypt, for instance, comes to mind.

KING: Well, the president did not mention any countries, which is what makes it so curious. Obviously, Syria has been under the microscope, under some pressure and criticism from this administration in recent days. So, many here at the White House say that is the president's first thought, the unfriendly regimes in the region, if you will.

But White House officials also say, the president has made it clear in his private conversations with Crown Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia, with President Mubarak of Egypt, that he believes it is critical that they open up their countries, not that they go perhaps to full-bore democracy, but that they more steps to open up their countries to give citizens a right to air their disagreements with the governments.

And White House officials say, after this war, as the United States spends so much time, money and resources on building a new Iraq, the president will not shy away from speaking that message, even if it makes some traditional allies in the region a bit uneasy -- Anderson.

COOPER: And I'm sure a bit uneasy, it does make them.

John King at the White House, thanks very much.

There was a headline on Slate.com today. It sums up what the next year and a half may hold for the president. It said -- quote -- "The war against Saddam is over," it reads. Quote: "The war against Bush is on." Democratic presidential candidates have started doing what their counterparts did back in 1991. Different candidates, different wars, different Bush, same outcome?

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Yes, the symbolism was pretty clear on Tuesday. On income tax deadline day, the president called for a tax cut.

BUSH: ... totaling at least $550 billion.

GREENFIELD: But the message wasn't just about taxes, but about the economy. As it was today.

BUSH: In order for all Americans who are looking for work to find work, the Congress must pass this jobs package.

GREENFIELD: The turn to economic matters from a month's long focus on Iraq comes with an irresistible historical link: the fate of the last President Bush defeated for re-election a year and a half after victory in the first Gulf War.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has to pay attention to the economy, which his father didn't.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: '91 is not 2003.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Democrats have been saying, "Like father, like son."

GREENFIELD (on camera): All of which raises two questions. How is the economy doing, and what does it mean politically?

(voice-over): The numbers are not that good. Two million jobs lost in the last two years. Some 465,000 just in the last two months. Economic growth that's been close to no growth at all.

But not all the news is bad. Unemployment is 5.8 percent. That's higher than two years ago, but not historically high.

Consumer confidence in the last month bumped up, but that may be a reaction to the war news. The Dow Jones average is up 10 percent in the last month, but down some 28 percent from its 2000 high.

But the lurking fear is that some fundamental dilemmas, overcapacity in some industries, the lingering post-9/11 risk aversion, may make the long-term economic news bad. And that generally means bad news for any incumbent, despite the president's 70-plus percent job approval rating. In fact, the only president re- elected in bad economic times was FDR in 1936, because the country believed he was trying hard to end the depression.

Moreover, voters tend to be unforgiving in the face of bad news. In 1980, an oil embargo helped plague Jimmy Carter with inflation and an industrial recession and long gas lines. He lost big.

And the first President Bush lost, even though the recession had ended almost a year before the 1992 election. Right now, the president gets mixed marks on the economy and on his tax cut proposals. So we are again left with more questions than answers. Two, in fact. First, will the economy next year produce the kinds of impacts voters feel directly? Job losses, for instance. And if it does, will voters reward the president for trying to make things better or blame him for failing?

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: The other question, of course: Will the economy be the No. 1 thing on voters' mind come election time? We'll see.

Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT: A wanted terrorist is in custody, but exactly who wants him now?

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, they say possession is nine-tenths of the law, except, perhaps, when it comes to a Palestinian fugitive from Italian law captured by American forces in Iraq. More now on exactly who wants Abul Abbas and who wants to keep him.

Here's CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Now that the U.S. has Abul Abbas in custody, the question is what to do with him?

VICTORIA CLARKE, PENTAGON SPOKESWOMAN: We're looking at the legal issues and possibilities and have nothing to say right now.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Abul Abbas personally condemned the attack aboard the Achille Lauro.

ENSOR: Abbas was found guilty in absentia in Italy in the 1985 killing of disabled American tourist Leon Klinghoffer on the seized cruise ship the Achille Lauro, murdered by Palestinian guerrillas under Abbas' command.

Italy has asked for Abbas' extradition to serve a life sentence. Good idea, says a former Justice Department official.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do we want to cause more problems for ourselves by bringing him here on something that we don't even think we have the evidence for right now? I would say let's go with the Italian solution.

ENSOR: But U.S. officials want to question Abbas and figure out whether he has had any role in supporting terrorism in more recent years. Did he help Saddam Hussein pay families of Palestinian suicide bombers? Did he help the Iraqis train terrorists at any point? Should he face charges in the U.S? BRIG. GEN. VINCENT BROOKS, CENTCOM SPOKESMAN: Abul Abbas is a terrorist. He was a terrorist. He remains a terrorist.

ENSOR: Abul Abbas has lived openly and freely in Baghdad, traveling often to the Gaza Strip since the 1995 signing of a Palestinian-Israeli agreement regarding immunity for actions taken prior to the Oslo Accords. Palestinian officials are pressing the U.S. to free him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have contacted the American administration this morning, and I urged the American administration to honor and respect the agreement signed.

ENSOR: But U.S. officials respond, while Israel is bound by those agreements, the U.S. is not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The United States is not a party to that or any amnesty arrangements regarding Abul Abbas.

ENSOR (on camera): U.S. officials say Abbas did try to flee Iraq to Syria, but was turned back at the border by the Syrians. He now faces a lot of American questions, presumably followed by a long period in prison, the only question being: Where?

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, the question we want answered is, so, does catching Abul Abbas really mean anything after all? We're going to talk with an expert in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, more now on the fate of Abul Abbas with Jim Walsh. He's an expert on international terrorism at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government and joins us now from Boston.

So, Jim, how significant an arrest is this? Does it really matter?

JIM WALSH, KENNEDY SCHOOL OF GOVERNMENT: Well, I think this is more symbolic than it is substantive.

Clearly, Abbas was a terrorist, famously associated with the hijacking of the Achille Lauro. But then, in 1993, following the Oslo accord, the beginning of a peace agreement between the Israelis and the Palestinians, he renounced terrorism. And, in fact, in 1998, the Israeli Supreme Court ruled that he was immune from prosecution. That's why they allow him back into Gaza.

And he's condemned the 9/11 attacks. And he attacked al Qaeda as not being something that should be associated with the Palestinian cause. So he was a terrorist, but he has renounced all that and hasn't done a lot in a while. COOPER: But, nevertheless, what's done is done. He was involved. His group was involved in the Achille Lauro. Leon Klinghoffer was killed, this disabled man, thrown overboard after being shot. Symbolically, it sends a message, does it not?

WALSH: Well, clearly, this guy is guilty of these crimes that he committed in the past. He was the mastermind of the operation, even though he was not one of the four terrorists who was on the ship at the time. But, clearly, he was the guy calling the shots.

But, as I say, there was a negotiated amnesty between the Israelis and the Palestinians. And while the U.S. -- you heard earlier, I think, in David's report, that the U.S. says that they're not bound by that. That would be the Oslo II accords. In fact, those accords were signed in Washington under President Clinton. And the United States was a witness to those accords. And it was clear that the U.S. was backing those accords. So they're sort of playing both sides on this one.

COOPER: But, I guess, the way around that being, send this guy to Italy, where he has been convicted already in absentia.

WALSH: Absolutely. And I think that's the likely outcome here, in part because the Department of Justice announced that it doesn't have an outstanding warrant or indictment against the guy.

So, the folks who do have an active legal case against him are the Italians. The Italians have requested extradition. And, moreover, Prime Minister Berlusconi at least vocally supported U.S. policy in Iraq at a time when the opposition was against him, his public was against him, and the Vatican was against him. So I think it's likely that the U.S. -- if they want him, the U.S. is likely to give him to them.

COOPER: Do you think the Palestinian Authority, though, is really likely to push this thing, to push support for Abul Abbas? Just from a public relations standpoint, it doesn't seem like a great idea.

WALSH: Anderson, I think you're right.

It's a tough argument to make. Clearly, that provision -- it's Article 16 of the Oslo II agreements. And if you read it, it's plain as day. On the other hand, Oslo, one could debate whether it is even in effect now. The Israelis broke it. Palestinians broke it. How much Oslo is left at the end of the day is subject to debate. And, clearly, the Palestinians have other issues to deal with right now, Abbas aside. He was never very popular.

He was kicked off the PLO executive committee because he was an embarrassment. So I don't know, really, how far they're going to push this.

COOPER: All right, so it sounds like he is probably going to end up in Italy. Let's just see where that goes. Let's talk briefly about Syria. Does this look like saber- rattling? Some tough words from the U.S., does it seem like saber- rattling to you, though, at this point?

WALSH: Yes, but it may saber-rattling that's effective.

I think it is highly unlikely that the U.S. is going to take military action against Syria. But the question is, can the Syrians afford to call that bluff right now? President Bush is fresh off an apparent victory in Iraq. He has troops on the ground. And while it is unlikely he would intervene militarily, I don't know if the Syrians can really afford to take that chance.

One of the ironies here connecting these two stories is that the Syrians actually prevented Abbas from crossing into Syria on two different occasions. So, on the one hand, we're sort of hassling Syria because we think there may be Iraqis there, but the Syrians have been helpful in the war on terrorism and also refused to take Abbas.

COOPER: Do you think it is going to work, though? Just very briefly, do you think the Syrians, maybe away from the limelight -- give it a couple weeks -- are going to start handing over some of these Iraqi officials who have allegedly gone over there?

WALSH: Well, if they're there -- and, of course, there's no evidence in the public domain -- but if they're there, I think the Syrians have very few alternatives. And it think it would be handled quietly. It may not be tomorrow. It may not be a month from now, but I would think that something is going to be worked out here.

COOPER: All right, Jim Walsh, thanks very much. Good to talk to you, as always.

WALSH: Thank you, Anderson.

COOPER: Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT: images of war frozen in photographs.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: The latest now in our series of still photographers working in Iraq, tonight, Ben Lowey, who is on assignment for "TIME" magazine. You probably don't know his name, but you probably know some of his photos, at least one, this one a pretty memorable image from early in the war, the suspect, a U.S. soldier, in the grenade attack on members of the 101st Airborne in Kuwait.

Ben described for us what the attack was like and what he has seen in his travels throughout Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BENJAMIN LOWY, "TIME": You just woke up with a loud boom. And people in our tents started screaming. People weren't sure if that was a Scud attack if they should put their gas mask on, if we were being attacked.

After an initial period of realizing it was some kind of a terrorist attack, people started taking positions and guarding the perimeter of the little pad of tents that we had. And I just grabbed my cameras and started photographing the evacuation of the wounded. I actually don't think morale dropped as much as everyone thought it was going to. If anything, there were more antsy to get in to the war.

My name is Benjamin Lowy and I'm a photographer with Corbis and "TIME" magazine. I just graduated. And a lot of the 1st and 2nd lieutenants were exactly just my age. It's hard to remain objective when you become someone's friend. We have a job and we go out and do it. I do my photography and they do their soldiering.

When you're surrounded by the members of your unit, and they're tight-knit groups, that is your family while you're deployed. In the end, they rely on the guy next to them in battle as much as they have to rely on themselves. And that's a bond of friendship.

I was on a job for about a week and a half with the 101st. They were trying to arrange the distribution of food and water to the citizens. No one really talked to the civilians as much as they should have. And the government was handing out plenty of food. But when I would speak to some of the people, they were like: We have plenty of food as it is. We just really need water.

Some of the U.S. forces went to drop off food with some bedouins living outside An Najaf. And they had complained that they didn't need food as much as they really needed fresh water, because the girl that was clinging to that other girl were sick because they had been drinking raw sewage water.

The types images that I've taken in the last couple of days have been the looting in the suburbs of Baghdad. And people just rolled in and took anything they could, like couches, doors. Even the plumbing was taken. They have their little spot where they put all their material. And then cars drove by, tractors. They loaded them up. They drove away. They came back later on. If there was anything to take away from the houses of this regime that these people apparently -- that the Iraqi civilians hated so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: The words and images of Ben Lowy, "TIME" magazine.

We have a lot ahead in our next hour: the latest on the American POWs as they head home, while back in Baghdad, in the bank district, it is the wild, wild West. And in the wild, wild East, did Kim Jong Il get the message? News from Pyongyang -- also, the latest headlines straight ahead.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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