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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Rescued POWs Begin Journey Home

Aired April 16, 2003 - 23:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: A lot to cover in this next hour.
We begin with a big step closer to home for seven rescued prisoners of war. They arrived today at a U.S. military hospital in Germany, together, inseparable, is how some may have described it. They'll split up eventually, once they are finally back here on U.S. soil, back in their home towns, that are already busy planning homecoming blowouts.

CNN's Matthew Chance is in Landstuhl, Germany, with the latest -- Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Anderson.

And there were a lot of waves and smiles as those seven prisoners of war, rescued, of course, were brought off, they stepped off the U.S. military aircraft at the Ramstein U.S. Air Force Base earlier on this evening here local time. There was a big grin as well from Shoshana Johnson, injured to the extent that she had to be carried off that plane in a -- or on a stretcher, rather.

It's been a very long and arduous journey for them. They're currently resting in the Landstuhl U.S. Army medical facility, in the building right behind me, preparing themselves for medical exam, medical tests to be conducted over the course of the next few days before they get final big OK, which they're all looking for, to go home.

They were captured, remember, let's just recap on this. Recap -- or captured in two separate incidents as U.S. forces rolled across Iraq several weeks ago, held for nearly two weeks, often in isolation from one another. Many of them paraded or some of them paraded on Iraqi television.

For the past few days, they've been in Kuwait, receiving whatever medical attention could be administered there. Also the process of debriefing has begun. Those processes, more medical tests, and more medical action will be taken over the next few days before they get that final big OK to go back to the States, Anderson.

COOPER: Matthew, I had read an account, I think it was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Peter Baker in "The Washington Post" who had interviewed them, saying that some of them had actually undergone surgery while in Iraqi custody. Do you have any sense or has there been any public statements about their medical conditions right now? CHANCE: There haven't been any public statements yet. But I think we knew that, that the Iraqis have given at least some kind of primary medical attention, some first aid to those who needed it. We saw on the video of Shoshana Johnson being paraded on Iraqi television, being questioned on Iraqi television, that her ankles, which had been shot with a single bullet, it seems, had been bandaged up, presumably by her Iraqi captors.

But what the medical authorities here are saying is that particularly with Specialist Johnson, they will have to take a very close look at her injuries to see if she needs further surgery, and, of course, the outcome of those medical examinations will determine how long they'll have to stay at this medical facility.

COOPER: All right, let's hope it's not too long. Matthew Chance, thanks very much, from Germany tonight. Thanks very much, Matthew.

We continue to learn details about exactly how the seven POWs were rescued. And Jamie Colby has been with the wife of one of them, who's been learning about the role her husband played in helping them escape... Jamie.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson.

Many of these new details center around David Williams, and Michelle Williams, who is herself in the military, she flies Black Hawk helicopters, likely understands more than any other POW family member how important the process that's going on in Germany is.

Still, today, as a wife and mother, she was visited by a chaplain and repatriation officer to find out what she can do to help her husband adjust once he gets back home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHELLE WILLIAMS, WIFE OF FORMER POW: Early March, I believe, and...

COLBY (voice-over): Michelle Williams is learning how instrumental her Apache pilot husband, Chief Warrant Officer David Williams, was in Sunday's rescue of all seven POWs.

WILLIAMS: It's amazing what he's been through and what they were able to do.

COLBY: Wednesday's "Washington Post" reports the Marines had an address, house number 13, but couldn't find it. And as a crowd of Iraqis gathered, they sensed an ambush.

(on camera): It was that close.

WILLIAMS: But I'm just so glad that he was -- I don't know if he was able to see them, or how he knew that the Marines were there, but I am thankful for that moment, because who knows what we would be doing right now if that hadn't happened. COLBY (voice-over): David Williams, the most senior soldier of the group, had taken, the "Post" reports, a lead role during the POWs' captivity. He saw the Marines retreat and shouted out, "I'm an American."

Now, as the POWs make their way home, Michelle says she's making plans to help her husband adjust to life as a free man.

WILLIAMS: I'm not assuming he's going to be the person he was when he left, because of the experiences that he's gone through. And I think the fact that I know that what I'm getting isn't going to be what was gone, but the love that we have for each other, the support that we have for each other, I think, is just going to get us through it no matter what lies ahead.

COLBY (on camera): But how has he described the relationship that has built between the seven POWs?

WILLIAMS: He said he loves them. He was talking about them coming home, and when they were going to be able to come home. He said that, really, he's enjoying the time with them right now.

Feel that they did them on base...

COLBY (voice-over): At home with her family, Michelle, a Black Hawk pilot herself, understands it may take time for David to return to the U.S., though the process of reintegration has begun.

WILLIAMS: He's really anxious to get home and be with his family, and I know that he won't leave the others until they're all ready to come home. So as long as it takes for everybody to get ready to come home, I guess I'll be patient for that as well. But I know he's ready to come home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY: And, Anderson, she is patient, but, of course, like all the family members, hoping that her husband will be home soon. In the meantime, she's been keeping busy making plans for Easter dinner that she hopes to share with her husband, Anderson.

COOPER: Jamie, it was nice to actually hear from her. Hadn't heard from her before. And the story not only of how they were rescued, but how they tried to evade capture initially, is just a fascinating one, and hopefully, once he returns to the U.S., he'll be willing to tell that story a little bit, because it is just an amazing story of perseverance. Jamie Colby, thank you very much.

COLBY: Absolutely.

COOPER: If American forces have been stymied so far in the search for the weapons of mass destruction, they've had no trouble finding conventional weapons of terror. Last week, it was a room full of suicide vests, you'll remember those pictures. Today, a bomb factory in southern Baghdad discovered by the 101st Airborne.

CNN's Ryan Chilcote is traveling with them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Acting on a tip from an Iraqi farmer, the troops moved in. His neighbors, the farmer had told them, disappeared three days ago, but left their bomb-making production line behind.

STAFF SGT. MIKE TAYLOR, U.S. ARMY: You got bags which I haven't been able to look at inside of them yet. But those (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ready.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

TAYLOR: This is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) terror stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

TAYLOR: This is terror stuff going on, so...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we do with it? How do we transport it?

TAYLOR: We can't. We can't, sir. This stuff...

TAYLOR: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with you, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

TAYLOR: We're going to have to do it here, sir.

CHILCOTE: The troops say they found enough to enough to blow three city blocks.

TAYLOR: Basically, you put up the nine-volt battery, and they will go.

CHILCOTE: The explosives, individually packaged, possibly for use, the soldiers said, by suicide bombers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this was where all the bags of explosives were hid.

CHILCOTE: There was also plenty of shrapnel.

TAYLOR: As you can see here, this is just bags and bags of shrapnel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) around here.

TAYLOR: This is a terrorist camp.

CHILCOTE: And detonators, from alarm clocks to phones. They even found a miniature model for practicing sneak attacks on highways.

TAYLOR: It has a sensor, it senses the first vehicle. Once the line's broken for the sensor, it drops your car, it drops a device that creates a roadblock hazard, stopping your convoy, and then your whole convoy's susceptible to attack at that point.

CHILCOTE: Sophisticated tools for unconventional tactics.

TAYLOR: This is made for a covert operations terrorist attacks, where it's unexpected. It's not aimed at just killing, you know, soldier to soldier, it's made for everything that can you go at. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) terrorist actions just like World Trade Center.

CHILCOTE: Still unclear who was building these bombs, and who was the target.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne Division in southern Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Want to get the sense of how things are in the rest of Baghdad right now.

For that, we go to CNN's Nic Robertson -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, somewhat restive still, people here are taking their daily demonstrations right to the main encampment of the journalists here with the Marines around them at the Palestine hotel yesterday.

We saw the biggest demonstration in the last week, many people coming here to show their frustration and anger that they still don't have electricity in the city, that they don't have water, and that they say that they don't have enough food as well.

It was also a day for General Tommy Franks to come to Baghdad and get his feet on the ground here for the first time. He flew into the Baghdad International Airport, went to one of Saddam Hussein's presidential palaces, very close to the airport. It's a palace that's surrounded by a huge lake.

And General Tommy Franks met with some of his commanders there, got a tour of the premises, and perhaps his most memorable quote, according to the reporters traveling with him, when he saw the gold- plated fixtures in a bathroom there, the presidential palace, making a comparison with the oil-for-food program, said that this must have been the oil-for-palace program.

Also, General Tommy Franks had a secure videophone link-up with President Bush from inside that presidential palace. But likely for General Tommy Franks, a moment that he had been waiting for some time, and a moment that he was able to share with his commanders and thank them for the job that they had done in getting here.

COOPER: Sorry, Nic. I got a question about the water. And we talked a little bit before about the electricity and sort of the timetable for that. What is the problem with the water? I mean, is it just that the pumping stations are down? And is there absolutely no water, I mean, even on street pumps, or is it just inside people's homes there's no water? And if so, how are people getting water? ROBERTSON: Well, there is some water in the city, but the majority of homes here don't have it. And the principal problem is that the pumps for the -- to pump the water around the city are not working, because there's no electricity.

It's not clear exactly how long it will take once the electricity comes back on. If the pipes have to be flushed through, how long it takes the system to fill up again in the city. But that's why most people stopped getting water in their homes. When the electricity went down, the pumps went down, and that's the main reason.

Of course, there are -- there is a large river here in the city, and people can get water from the private wells in their gardens.

The thing that aid agencies caution about the water that people get from their gardens is that the wells are generally sunk a few meters, and while that gets people into the water table, it's a water table that's contaminated with sewage.

And the reason they say that it's contaminated is, the rivers are contaminated with sewage because the sewage system broke down a number of years ago, and that seeps into the high-level groundwater table.

So if people -- what people need to do is sink wells that are some 30 to 40 or 50 meters deep, depending on the area.

So water is still a very big issue, but it should be resolved quickly once the electricity comes back on.

COOPER: All right, Nic in Baghdad, thanks very much. Nic Robertson.

As tough as things may be in Baghdad, in Mosul, in the north, it seems, they are worse. Mosul has, of course, all the combustible ingredients found in Baghdad, plus tension between Kurds trying to return to the city, and Iraqi Arabs who say they don't belong there.

More now from CNN's Ben Wedeman, who joins us from Erbil -- Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson, the situation in that predominantly Sunni Arab city remains extremely tense. We were there earlier, driving around, and you can really feel the anger and the tension just driving around the street.

Now, in the space of the last two days, at least 10 people have been killed and many more wounded in clashes between U.S. troops and local protesters opposed to the American presence there. Now, these clashes have taken place around the only building that U.S. forces still control in central Mosul. That's in the western part of the city. And that's the governor's office. It's something of a Fort Apache in downtown Mosul.

Now, the rest of the western part of the city is a no-man's-land. There are no forces there. What you do have operating in that area are forces still loyal to Saddam Hussein. You have local militias. And you have common criminals. Now, the Kurdish troops who originally occupied the western sector of the city following the surrender of Iraqi forces there about a week ago have pulled out completely from that part of the city. They've pulled back due to the intense friction between the Kurds and the Arabs. And they've redeployed to the Kurdish sector of the city in the east. And that comprises about 30 percent of the population.

So if life is slowly, painfully getting back to normal in much of the rest of Iraq, Mosul appears to be the exception, Anderson.

COOPER: And how many troops are on the ground in Mosul, U.S. troops and Kurdish troops? And you said the Kurdish troops have sort of pulled back. Is that a permanent pullback, or is it unclear at this point?

WEDEMAN: Well, as far as the Kurds go, I think it's pretty much permanent, in the sense that they really can't control that part of the city.

We were in the main square of western Mosul, the Arab part of the city, a couple days ago, when the Kurds were still there. We set up our camera, and within minutes there were -- the Kurds -- the Kurdish forces were shoving Arabs who were trying to speak with us back, and we really had to leave the area, because it looked like there was going to be a fight.

So I don't think the Kurds are going to be returning. Now, how many Kurdish troops are in the city at this point, in the Kurdish section of the city, it's probably around 500 to 600.

As far as the Americans go, in that governor's office, there are, we've been told by the Marines, somewhere between 200 to 250 in that very large building. Now, they also occupy an air base on the edge of town, and there we saw that they are beefing up their forces. How many exactly, it's hard to say, but probably well over 600 or 700 possibly.

And we know that they're bringing in more forces. Now, initially, it was the troops of the 173rd Airborne Brigade, now a Marine expeditionary unit has arrived as well. So they do appear to be beefing up in the city. And there is a plan to increase the number of patrols in the western part of the city. But yesterday, we saw none in that area, Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Ben Wedeman in Erbil, thanks very much. Obviously not the last we are going to hear from Mosul.

Washington is hoping a successful campaign in Iraq is sending a powerful message to neighbors and other countries around the world -- North Korea, Iran, Syria, just to name a few. Some have taken to calling Syria a junior varsity member of the axis of evil. But, of course, in reality, Syria has been on the government's list of rogue nations going back to 1979, long before Iraq.

Here's CNN's Sheila MacVicar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is unfinished business that keeps Syria at what the U.S. calls the terror trade -- a state of war with Israel, not yet resolved in peace. Not wars between states, the Syrian-Israeli border is quiet, but proxy wars, fought by groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, all groups named by the U.S. as terrorist organizations, all groups the U.S. says are sponsored in some way by Syria.

Damascus has helped the U.S. go after al Qaeda, but officials here will not yet renounce the others.

BUTHAINA SHAABAN, SYRIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN: Who call these people terrorists? It is the people who occupy their lands and who send them out and expel them out of their land.

MACVICAR: The Syrians still make that old distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters. They do not see that civilian casualties caused by suicide bombers will bring American pressure and perhaps American might.

RICHARD ARMITAGE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: We're going to go after these problems just like a high school wrestler goes after a match. We're going to take them down one at a time.

MACVICAR: High on that list is Hezbollah. Sponsored and armed by Syria and Iran, it is Hezbollah fighters who sit on the border between Lebanon and Israel, who drove the Israelis out of south Lebanon after 22 years, the organization the U.S. holds responsible for the deaths of hundreds of American Marines in Beirut in 1983.

Last month, CNN obtained a rare interview with Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the secretary general of Hezbollah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACVICAR (on camera): The United States administration calls Hezbollah the A-team of terrorism. They say that you owe the United States a blood debt. They say that there is a price to be paid for that, and that you are on their list, and when the time is right, they are going to come after Hezbollah. What do you think the United States will do, and what will you do?

SHEIKH HASSAN NASRALLAH, SECRETARY GENERAL, HEZBOLLAH (through translator): Hezbollah's problem with the American administration is that we are fighting Israel. And I'm certain if we were to give up the fight against Israel, then there's a very great possibility that Hezbollah would be dropped from the American list of terrorist organizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACVICAR (voice-over): Under Syrian pressure, Hezbollah has been quiet for these weeks of war in the Middle East. But it could start again, this time with better, more powerful weapons. (on camera): And if Hezbollah were to wage its war again, the Israelis say they would not simply hit missile launchers in south Lebanon. The address, they say, is here in Damascus, and the target would be the Syrian government.

Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Damascus.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, did you notice that shortly after Baghdad fell, North Korea discovered a bit of give on the subject of its nuclear program? Maybe it was just a coincidence, but the North Koreans suddenly agreed to multilateral talks to be held next week in Beijing.

Here's how it all played out, from CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Did U.S. military victory in Iraq persuade North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il to finally agree to talks with China and the United States? The White House and State Department wouldn't say.

But after months of stalemate and heavy criticism of President Bush, who refused to hold one-on-one talks with Pyongyang, calling it nuclear blackmail, there was a sense of vindication.

PHILLIP REEKER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Well, I think our policy has always been the right policy. And we've explained why and pursued that. And now we're going to move forward to this.

KOPPEL: Administration officials said next week's meeting in Beijing would be preliminary, playing down expectations North Korea would quickly abandon threats to begin reprocessing spent fuel rods to make weapons-grade plutonium.

The breakthrough, albeit modest, came after Secretary of State Powell urged Chinese leaders last month to push Pyongyang to agree to multilateral talks. For three days, China cut off oil shipments to North Korea, a strong message from an old communist ally.

But without other key regional players, the talks are still not as inclusive as the U.S. would like.

REEKER: We think that, obviously, the early inclusion of the Republic of Korea and Japan will be essential to reach substantive results.

KOPPEL: The U.S. delegation will be led by Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly, the same official who, last fall, confronted Pyongyang with evidence that the U.S. knew it had a secret nuclear program. Unknown, whether North Korea would ever agree to give up the program in exchange for U.S. security assurance, diplomatic recognition, and economic aid.

JON WOLFSTHAL, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR PEACE: These talks hopefully will find out, once and for all, whether North Korea is prepared to deal. And, of course, then the question is, is the United States prepared to take yes for an answer?

KOPPEL (on camera): The obstacles to resolving the North Korean nuclear crisis are daunting. The latest hurdle, a U.N. resolution put forward by the European Union and the United States condemning North Korea, for the first time ever, for human rights abuses.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: As NEWSNIGHT continues, we'll talk with Pulitzer Prize- winner Samantha Power about the U.S., human rights, and our standing in the world there, right when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, you could make the argument that America has never been stronger and never more isolated from public opinion around the world. A majority of Americans see the war in Iraq as something good, something justified. Others around the globe see it as an act of aggression.

We want to get more now on American power and policy, and how it's viewed around the world, with Samantha Power. She is the author of "A Problem From Hell: America and Age of Genocide," which won a Pulitzer Prize.

Thanks very much for being with us, Miss Power.

SAMANTHA POWER, AUTHOR, "A PROBLEM FROM HELL": Pleasure.

COOPER: You write -- I read this article you wrote in "The New Republic" recently, I believe it was. In it, in it, in which you say that the problem with America is not its unilateralism, its willingness to act unilaterally, it's its a-la-carteism. What did you mean by that?

POWER: Well, actually, I think it's both, but I think the two concepts are a little distinct. Unilateralism we're all familiar with, it's the tendency to go it alone, to not believe that the U.N. Security Council is the guardian of all values, which I think one has some reason for challenging the U.N. Security Council status, when you have Russia and China as the guardians of human rights. But nonetheless, it is the only show in town.

And yet we tend to sort of go away and try to exempt ourself from the international treaties. So that is a problem with U.S. foreign policy.

But another problem that I think we're slower to acknowledge is a-la-carteism, which is the tendency to believe that the decisions we make in one place have no bearing on decisions we make elsewhere.

So when we go to try to make an argument for why war in Iraq is merited, and we make the security argument or the human rights argument, we can't quite comprehend how our position on climate change, or on farm subsidies, or in backing the Saudi regime, could have bearing on our standing to make that case in international fora.

So what, you know, my argument is, really, is that we need to think much more holistically about an integrated foreign policy that abides by certain principles, not as selectively as we are seen to be abiding by them around the world.

COOPER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and what exactly does that mean? I mean, you are very critical of the U.S. as a world citizen. Who out there is better as a world citizen? I mean, who -- what -- who -- what one model -- what's your model?

POWER: Well, I mean, I'm originally from Ireland. I would like to say that Ireland is a model, but I don't think a state that doesn't have much power is exactly tested.

I think you're right, I think that what we have is a problem of states, states explicitly, when they operate abroad, pursue their vital national interests, and those are defined virtually across the board, with the possible exception of Scandinavia and Canada. Those interests are defined in terms of economic and security gains.

The difference, when it comes to the United States, is the extraordinary capacity we have actually to do good with less, that is, with less of a percentage, as it were, of our resources, in terms of foreign aid, and AIDS funding, and in terms of our diplomatic clout in terms of deterring other states from behaving in certain ways.

Some of that standing, unfortunately, has been forfeited by the level of anti-Americanism that is present around the world.

But I think one does have to acknowledge that all states are motivated by the same forces, by self-interest, and yet we are going to be held accountable for the gap between the values that we get to enjoy at home as Americans, and the sort of lack of adherence to values in our foreign policy more than other countries, because people are watching, number one, and number two, because we have such disproportionate military, economic, and cultural power.

COOPER: So -- so...

POWER: The decisions we make just have such great bearing on the lives of people around the world.

COOPER: So you're acknowledging that you are holding the United States to a higher standard, perhaps, than other nations?

POWER: I don't think I'm holding the United States to a higher standard. I think I'm holding it to the standard that, if you surveyed Americans, these are the values that we get to enjoy at home. We have a Bill of Rights that explicitly constrains us from pursuing raw, unadulterated self interest, defined in the short term.

My argument is not simply now about the welfare of foreign citizens and the way that U.S. decision-making has deleteriously affected their welfare. It's also about American security. There is a lot of anti-Americanism around the world. Some portion of it is simply the product of the power differential, and that's probably incurable.

Some portion of it, as the president said, has to do with a nihilism and antimodern or, you know, fundamentally a desire to keep women down and a detestation of our values that we do enjoy at home.

But a lot of the anti-Americanism out there is the product of us forfeiting what we used to have, I think, on the international stage, which is our soft power. And that is discrete decisions we have made and a perception that we apply our principles, again, the values that we get to enjoy at home, very, very selectively in our...

COOPER: But -- but...

POWER: ... interchanges...

COOPER: ... other than...

POWER: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

COOPER: ... other than for our security concerns, why should we care? Why should the United States care about the perception that people on the streets of Morocco or Paris, for that matter, have of the U.S.? I mean, you could make the argument that people are ill informed, simply, and why should the U.S. care about those people?

POWER: Well, I -- again, I think this administration, the Bush administration, is predicating its policy on an idea that it is better, probably, to be feared than to be liked.

I agree that some measure of fear, or at least some hard power, when it comes to terrorism, is incredibly important. I think we're all better off that al Qaeda is on the run and not enjoying the comfort of, you know, the major towns of Afghanistan, even if they may still be enjoying the comfort of the caves, or discomfort of the caves.

But I think that that discounts, again, the lesson of the last 50 years, which is that our ability to make people want what we want has been a real virtue in terms of bringing about international stability and enhancing U.S. security in the long term.

And in terms of the question that I took to be also beneath your question, which is why should we care about other people around the world, I mean, if you don't care about standing idly by when 800,000 Rwandans are killed, or if you know, you know, don't care about -- I mean, any of the human rights abuses that the fact that 600 people a day dying in South Africa and 8,000 a day are dying in...

COOPER: Right. No, I mean, that's...

POWER: That's...

COOPER: Right.

POWER: ...I mean that's a conversation we can have, but I just think that...

COOPER: Well, no, that actually wasn't...

POWER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) more valuable.

COOPER: ...that wasn't the subtext of the question. It was more about why it wasn't -- why should we care about people dying in Rwanda?

POWER: And that's a fair question, yes.

COOPER: It was more why should we care about someone's, you know, misperception or their perception of the U.S. as opposed to...

POWER: I hear you. No, that's an important question. And I think, just if I could finish, it is I guess my premise would be different than the administration's, which is that anti-Americanism is a sea in which over the long term, terrorism, it seems to me, is going to thrive, that you are going to get more recruits, and that you're just going to get less cooperation.

COOPER: Right.

POWER: Perhaps not from European governments, who I think the administration is right, are going to kind of go along with us eventually, because they also don't want al Qaeda cells in their countries.

COOPER: Right.

POWER: But over time, I do think that being respected, if not liked, at least being respected as well, and being seen as a global citizen is going to be beneficial.

And if I could say one more things, just...

COOPER: We got to -- I'm sorry.

POWER: Sorry, sure.

COOPER: I'm sorry. I wish we could. We're simply out of time. In fact, we're over time. But I appreciate -- the book is a fascinating book and you're a very good writer. I appreciate you joining us and trying to condense your many ideas into the short time TV allows, but I hope to have you back again some other time. Thanks, Samantha Power.

In our next half hour, Saddam is gone, but his image remains and it is proving tough to get rid of. Christiane Amanpour will have that story.

We'll also talk with the leader of the Iraqi opposition and a man who may have a lot to say about the future of Iraq. That and more when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, the fate of Saddam Hussein is still, of course, one of the great mysteries of the war, but his presence can still be found throughout Iraq in stone, in tile, in paint, and in the minds of many Iraqis who say they will not feel free, truly free, until they know the dictator is really gone.

The story from Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One week after U.S. Marines toppled Saddam's statue, a week after creating the war's iconic image, the surprise is how tall the fallen strong man still stands.

"He was the people's nightmare," says this man, "and all the pictures and statues were installed by force, but there are too many of them to tear down in one day."

So here Saddam's still the station master. Here he is as traffic cop, as the once forbidden joke went. Still, the people are trying to wipe the slate clean, trying to wipe the smile off his face.

But deeply suspicious, they also want to know where he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know.

AMANPOUR: "Where is Saddam," asked Mohammed Ali nervously. "Where is the whole leadership?" If you ask any Iraqi, the ghost of Saddam still hangs over them. We don't believe it yet, says this man.

Without a body, people wonder when they'll ever be able to put Saddam's ghost to rest.

(on camera): And how long will he remain embarrassing unfinished business for the United States, like many of their other most wanted? Osama bin Laden or holdouts like Teradich (ph) and Nardich (ph) from the Bosnian War?

(voice-over): The U.S. now says Saddam's personal fate doesn't matter as much as freedom for the Iraqi people. And they are free to talk, to complain openly. Only many complaints are directed at the United States.

"Our history has disappeared," say these people. "Who will return it to us?" "Why didn't the Marines protect the country's heritage from the looters?" The apocalyptic feel of the day after instills fear and bitterness.

"They came for our oils," shouts this man. "Why didn't they protect our ministry? They've only protected the oil ministry."

It's a conspiracy theory bolstered by a ministry that's untouched, except for Marines using it as a base. Residents survey the rubble of war and ask who will rebuild their infrastructure? They feel too small for such a massive task.

"Saddam is finished," says Halil Moussaoui. "We thank God and extend Iraq's greetings to Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair. But we ask them to give us water, electricity, and medical services."

Amid the fragments of a hated past, the people say they don't want their future tainted by the demons unleashed in that first anarchic week.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, next on NEWSNIGHT, no more politics as usual in Iraq. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: The U.S. talks about bringing democracy to Iraq, but in one small part of the country, there already is democracy built over the past decade by Kurds in the North. The question now is how the Kurds will fit into a new Iraq.

Joining us in Washington, Qubad Talabany, deputy representative of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.

Thanks very much for being with us. Can democracy come to Iraq?

QUBAD TALABANY, PATRIOTIC UNION OF KURDISTAN: I think it can. And like you mentioned, we have shown in the north in Iraqi Kurdistan that we can develop a democratic and civil society. We have shown by building the political institutions that we have that we can use this knowledge to help the rest of the country put itself on a path towards democracy.

COOPER: But are you talking about elections in six months? Or are you talking years from now?

TALABANY: I think we have to be careful about how soon we move to elections. We have to put in place the mechanisms, the institutions that can educate the society, and build civic education up from a grassroots level, before we run into national elections.

I do foresee that we may able to have local elections much sooner than we would have national elections.

COOPER: It all sounds like a lot of time. I mean, you're not given a timeline, but it does sound like a lot of time. And that, of course, is not on the side of the U.S. in terms of maintaining a presence in Iraq.

How long do you want to see U.S. forces on the ground in Iraq?

TALABANY: Well, it depends on in what manner we would like the U.S. forces there. We certainly need the basic humanitarian needs at the moment. We need water, we need electricity, we need food, we need the basic services to be provided.

We hope that this interim Iraqi authority can be established as soon as possible to start taking over control and administering the country. And this, in turn, Iraqi authority can put in place the mechanisms that can lead to national general elections.

COOPER: You know, if you watch al Jazeera, if you watch some Arab television stations, it appears as if this is like the worst thing that's ever happened to Iraq, the U.S. presence there. From your perspective, how is it going?

TALABANY: I think it going very well. We have seen the demise of the Ba'ath regime. We saw the sights of the people dancing on the streets and beating the statues with shoes. There is jubilation across the country. I think the military aspect went very smoothly.

Now it's just a process of rebuilding the country along modern and democratic lines, and putting in place a federal democratic system of governance in Iraq.

COOPER: Is there something that you don't think the U.S. gets? I mean, what -- is there something that you wish the U.S. was doing now that they are not?

TALABANY: I think it's important now for the office headed by General Jay Garner to work with the Iraqis to put in place this interim Iraqi authority.

Obviously, the security situation on the ground is very important. The lives of the coalition forces is of paramount importance to us, and we hope to stabilize the situation fully, to create an environment where we can start rebuilding the country.

COOPER: Have you given up the dream of an independent Kurdish state?

TALABANY: Well, we understand that geography inflate -- necessitates that we remain within the boundaries of Iraq. And if that is the case, then so be it. But we have to be first class and full participants with Iraqi society.

That means being at the decisionmaking table in Baghdad, and governing the country as an Iraqi and as an Iraqi Kurd.

COOPER: Let's talk about that a little bit more specifically. I mean, you really have had sort of an independent spot for the last 12 years or so. Do you want exactly that to continue? Do you want a wider piece of territory?

TALABANY: Well, this is a critical issue. We have been living our day after scenario for 12 years now. So in effect, we are 12 years ahead of the rest of the country. What we have put forth is a vision to reintegrate Iraqi Kurdistan within the rest of Iraq, through a federal structure, where we would maintain our level of self governance, hand certain powers back over to the central federal government, such as foreign policy, national defense policy, national economic policy.

But we would still maintain a large degree of control over our local government affairs.

COOPER: All right, Qubad Talabany with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, appreciate you joining us, thanks.

TALABANY: Thank you.

COOPER: Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, we're going to talk with Michael Weisskopf of "Time" magazine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We're joined in Doha, Qatar by Michael Weisskopf, senior correspondent for "Time" magazine. He's been looking at the challenges facing General Jay Garner in rebuilding Iraq and the challenges are many. He's also been looking at that question of Syria and the hunt for weapons of mass destruction.

So a lot to talk about.

Michael, thanks for being with us. Let's talk about General Jay Garner for a little bit.

MICHAEL WEISSKOPF, "TIME" MAGAZINE: OK.

COOPER: Yesterday, there was this meeting in southern Iraq with some 70 or so Iraqi figures. This guy's got a real tough job ahead of him?

WEISSKOPF: Yes, Anderson. It wasn't so much what happened within the tent, but what happened without. There were demonstrators by the thousands, members of the Shi'ite community who opposed U.S. presence in Iraq.

The real troubling piece of that is that at least part of that Shi'ite community is connected to Gome in the center of Iran. So you've got that hovering over.

And Garner should have expected difficulties in political consolidation because of the three main factions of Iraq. What he didn't reckon with was -- is the fairly bloody schisms just within the Shi'ite community itself. That could make for great difficulty because the Shi'ites are in the majority. And if they can't agree on leadership, it's going to be very hard to cooperate in some type of a larger umbrella.

COOPER: Yes, I mean, the situation in Najaf, which hasn't really gotten a lot of attention over here, but to me is sort of extraordinarily worrying. I mean, you have the Shi'ite clerics supported by the U.S., and in some cases at certain times brought in and protected by the U.S.

You know, stab and or shot to death by a mob in Najaf. I mean, is that a harbinger of things to come?

WEISSKOPF: Yes. I was in Iran 20 odd years ago when the Shah fell and Khomeni took over. And it took Khomeni a full year to pacify his rivals within the Shi'ite community. So he was able to rule with an iron hand.

And often those clashes were bloody. Lots of assassinations. And you may see a replay of that in Iraq.

COOPER: Let's talk about Syria a little bit. What do you think the U.S. wants to gain by pressuring Syria? I mean, a lot of what some might call saber rattling going on, or direct threats?

WEISSKOPF: Well, what you've got here is an unwillingness by Syria to recognize the new world order, at least as Colin Powell sees it. And within that world order, there's a certain amount of cooperation on issues of importance to the United States, including terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, and mopping up both as it has to do with al Qaeda.

So Syria claims, of course, not to have that type of connection. And therein lies the split.

COOPER: There is an -- pretty easy argument to make right now with, you know, the change in attitude in North Korea, or at least the seeming change in their willingness to have multilateral talks. You got some movement on the part of the Israelis. You know, there are those who are saying look, in the coming weeks...

WEISSSKOPF: Yes.

COOPER: ...probably Syria on the side is going to be sending out any Iraqi officials, if in fact Iraqi officials did seek safety there. So there is this new world order, as you call it. I mean, it seems some might say to be working?

WEISSKOPF: Well, add to that even the statement yesterday or today, actually, by Iran about the shape of the new government in Iraq. Iran and its president said that it would not support any U.S. led government.

Of course, that sounded polemical, but U.S. goals are to turn the government over to Iraqis anyway. So it really is quite consistent.

And there is a kind of prevailing trend in this part of the world that it may be quite momentary on the side of the United States.

COOPER: Does that trend, the momentariness, does it depend on whether or not they find weapons of mass destruction? I know that you've been -- the search is something you've been following very closely?

WEISSKOPF: You know, this is key to the president, our president's credibility because he founded his invasion of Iraq primarily on the supposed distance of those weapons.

And now, he cites intelligence of similar weapons in Syria. The Syrians deny that. Certainly, if it turns out that there are no weapons in Iraq, the value of American intelligence will be duly questioned around the world.

COOPER: There was this statement, I think recently, from Tony Franks -- General Franks, basically saying well it might take up to a year, which would certainly set the time table back a great deal. So who knows in a year where we're all going to be and what we're going to be focused on. So it'll be interesting to see.

That's all the time we have, Michael Weisskopf. Appreciate you joining us, Michael from "Time" magazine from Doha, Qatar. Thanks very much.

Coming up next, a trip to the Baghdad Zoo, where it's a lion eat wolf world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, finally tonight, a trip to the zoo. The Baghdad zoo, that is. The trip taken by CNN's Michael Holmes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Major Rick Nussio takes a soldier's precautions as he prepares to enter the building. Safety off, taking his time, peering in before he enters the lion's den because that is what this is.

MAJ. RICK NUSSIO, TASK FORCE COMMANDER: Yes, here's the big male. Yes, all the cages are secure.

HOLMES: Welcome to Baghdad Zoo and some of its forlorn, listless residents. Six lions here who had their last meal two days ago, courtesy of the U.S. Army. They will eat again later this day.

This massive park in central Baghdad contains the city zoo. A few days ago, however, it was a battlefield inside the red zone. Iraqi soldiers had set up artillery, anti-aircraft guns. The animals deserted, ignored, no doubt terrified.

When the Army came through, the soldiers couldn't believe what they'd found.

NUSSIO: I think it was somewhat surreal. I mean, you know, here we are, and we're in the middle of a city. And everybody's talked about urban combat for two or three months. And next thing you know, there's camels walking through our positions and monkeys in the tree, and at night, you have a lion roaming free. It was very surreal, very strange.

HOLMES: Not just lions and camels, but two bears, listless and hungry. An Osciolot (ph) and more.

NUSSIO: I just don't think it was something we could have turned our back on.

HOLMES: And so they did not turn their backs. Soldiers, fresh from fierce combat, have become zookeepers on a mission, to keep the animals who remain here alive.

NUSSIO: The lions were just coming up out of this moat. One in particular, one of the male lions, and he was standing right here. And literally reaching through the cage.

HOLMES (on camera): One of the most bizarre incidents witnessed by soldiers happened here at the outside fence. A camel, electrical cord wrapped around its neck, and a group of Iraqis trying to drag it over the fence. The soldiers intervened, the camel got away. He's still out there somewhere.

(voice-over): The plight of some of these animals is pitiful. Zoo workers long gone, who knows how long these creatures went without?

Pigs were once here, but no more. They had to be sacrificed, the meat rationed to feed the carnivores something.

NUSSIO: Here's the porcupines.

HOLMES: And near them, a wolf out of his cage, near death. Domestic dogs in their cages. One has died, the others emaciated.

There's not even running water here. The soldiers and some locals cart it in by hand. In this case, to a grateful bear, who curiously shares his cage with a dog.

Back at the lion enclosure, we learn the wolf we saw earlier had died. He becomes meager rations for the hungry beasts.

NUSSIO: He's a beautiful animal. Absolutely gorgeous. We'll get you something. We'll get you something.

Michael Holmes, CNN, at the Baghdad Zoo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Lions, and tigers and bears, oh, my. That's about it for me tonight. Have a good night. Thanks for watching.

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Aired April 16, 2003 - 23:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: A lot to cover in this next hour.
We begin with a big step closer to home for seven rescued prisoners of war. They arrived today at a U.S. military hospital in Germany, together, inseparable, is how some may have described it. They'll split up eventually, once they are finally back here on U.S. soil, back in their home towns, that are already busy planning homecoming blowouts.

CNN's Matthew Chance is in Landstuhl, Germany, with the latest -- Matthew.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thank you, Anderson.

And there were a lot of waves and smiles as those seven prisoners of war, rescued, of course, were brought off, they stepped off the U.S. military aircraft at the Ramstein U.S. Air Force Base earlier on this evening here local time. There was a big grin as well from Shoshana Johnson, injured to the extent that she had to be carried off that plane in a -- or on a stretcher, rather.

It's been a very long and arduous journey for them. They're currently resting in the Landstuhl U.S. Army medical facility, in the building right behind me, preparing themselves for medical exam, medical tests to be conducted over the course of the next few days before they get final big OK, which they're all looking for, to go home.

They were captured, remember, let's just recap on this. Recap -- or captured in two separate incidents as U.S. forces rolled across Iraq several weeks ago, held for nearly two weeks, often in isolation from one another. Many of them paraded or some of them paraded on Iraqi television.

For the past few days, they've been in Kuwait, receiving whatever medical attention could be administered there. Also the process of debriefing has begun. Those processes, more medical tests, and more medical action will be taken over the next few days before they get that final big OK to go back to the States, Anderson.

COOPER: Matthew, I had read an account, I think it was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Peter Baker in "The Washington Post" who had interviewed them, saying that some of them had actually undergone surgery while in Iraqi custody. Do you have any sense or has there been any public statements about their medical conditions right now? CHANCE: There haven't been any public statements yet. But I think we knew that, that the Iraqis have given at least some kind of primary medical attention, some first aid to those who needed it. We saw on the video of Shoshana Johnson being paraded on Iraqi television, being questioned on Iraqi television, that her ankles, which had been shot with a single bullet, it seems, had been bandaged up, presumably by her Iraqi captors.

But what the medical authorities here are saying is that particularly with Specialist Johnson, they will have to take a very close look at her injuries to see if she needs further surgery, and, of course, the outcome of those medical examinations will determine how long they'll have to stay at this medical facility.

COOPER: All right, let's hope it's not too long. Matthew Chance, thanks very much, from Germany tonight. Thanks very much, Matthew.

We continue to learn details about exactly how the seven POWs were rescued. And Jamie Colby has been with the wife of one of them, who's been learning about the role her husband played in helping them escape... Jamie.

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Anderson.

Many of these new details center around David Williams, and Michelle Williams, who is herself in the military, she flies Black Hawk helicopters, likely understands more than any other POW family member how important the process that's going on in Germany is.

Still, today, as a wife and mother, she was visited by a chaplain and repatriation officer to find out what she can do to help her husband adjust once he gets back home.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHELLE WILLIAMS, WIFE OF FORMER POW: Early March, I believe, and...

COLBY (voice-over): Michelle Williams is learning how instrumental her Apache pilot husband, Chief Warrant Officer David Williams, was in Sunday's rescue of all seven POWs.

WILLIAMS: It's amazing what he's been through and what they were able to do.

COLBY: Wednesday's "Washington Post" reports the Marines had an address, house number 13, but couldn't find it. And as a crowd of Iraqis gathered, they sensed an ambush.

(on camera): It was that close.

WILLIAMS: But I'm just so glad that he was -- I don't know if he was able to see them, or how he knew that the Marines were there, but I am thankful for that moment, because who knows what we would be doing right now if that hadn't happened. COLBY (voice-over): David Williams, the most senior soldier of the group, had taken, the "Post" reports, a lead role during the POWs' captivity. He saw the Marines retreat and shouted out, "I'm an American."

Now, as the POWs make their way home, Michelle says she's making plans to help her husband adjust to life as a free man.

WILLIAMS: I'm not assuming he's going to be the person he was when he left, because of the experiences that he's gone through. And I think the fact that I know that what I'm getting isn't going to be what was gone, but the love that we have for each other, the support that we have for each other, I think, is just going to get us through it no matter what lies ahead.

COLBY (on camera): But how has he described the relationship that has built between the seven POWs?

WILLIAMS: He said he loves them. He was talking about them coming home, and when they were going to be able to come home. He said that, really, he's enjoying the time with them right now.

Feel that they did them on base...

COLBY (voice-over): At home with her family, Michelle, a Black Hawk pilot herself, understands it may take time for David to return to the U.S., though the process of reintegration has begun.

WILLIAMS: He's really anxious to get home and be with his family, and I know that he won't leave the others until they're all ready to come home. So as long as it takes for everybody to get ready to come home, I guess I'll be patient for that as well. But I know he's ready to come home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COLBY: And, Anderson, she is patient, but, of course, like all the family members, hoping that her husband will be home soon. In the meantime, she's been keeping busy making plans for Easter dinner that she hopes to share with her husband, Anderson.

COOPER: Jamie, it was nice to actually hear from her. Hadn't heard from her before. And the story not only of how they were rescued, but how they tried to evade capture initially, is just a fascinating one, and hopefully, once he returns to the U.S., he'll be willing to tell that story a little bit, because it is just an amazing story of perseverance. Jamie Colby, thank you very much.

COLBY: Absolutely.

COOPER: If American forces have been stymied so far in the search for the weapons of mass destruction, they've had no trouble finding conventional weapons of terror. Last week, it was a room full of suicide vests, you'll remember those pictures. Today, a bomb factory in southern Baghdad discovered by the 101st Airborne.

CNN's Ryan Chilcote is traveling with them.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Acting on a tip from an Iraqi farmer, the troops moved in. His neighbors, the farmer had told them, disappeared three days ago, but left their bomb-making production line behind.

STAFF SGT. MIKE TAYLOR, U.S. ARMY: You got bags which I haven't been able to look at inside of them yet. But those (UNINTELLIGIBLE) that was (UNINTELLIGIBLE) ready.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

TAYLOR: This is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) terror stuff.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.

TAYLOR: This is terror stuff going on, so...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What do we do with it? How do we transport it?

TAYLOR: We can't. We can't, sir. This stuff...

TAYLOR: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with you, (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

TAYLOR: We're going to have to do it here, sir.

CHILCOTE: The troops say they found enough to enough to blow three city blocks.

TAYLOR: Basically, you put up the nine-volt battery, and they will go.

CHILCOTE: The explosives, individually packaged, possibly for use, the soldiers said, by suicide bombers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this was where all the bags of explosives were hid.

CHILCOTE: There was also plenty of shrapnel.

TAYLOR: As you can see here, this is just bags and bags of shrapnel.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) around here.

TAYLOR: This is a terrorist camp.

CHILCOTE: And detonators, from alarm clocks to phones. They even found a miniature model for practicing sneak attacks on highways.

TAYLOR: It has a sensor, it senses the first vehicle. Once the line's broken for the sensor, it drops your car, it drops a device that creates a roadblock hazard, stopping your convoy, and then your whole convoy's susceptible to attack at that point.

CHILCOTE: Sophisticated tools for unconventional tactics.

TAYLOR: This is made for a covert operations terrorist attacks, where it's unexpected. It's not aimed at just killing, you know, soldier to soldier, it's made for everything that can you go at. And (UNINTELLIGIBLE) terrorist actions just like World Trade Center.

CHILCOTE: Still unclear who was building these bombs, and who was the target.

Ryan Chilcote, CNN, with the 101st Airborne Division in southern Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Want to get the sense of how things are in the rest of Baghdad right now.

For that, we go to CNN's Nic Robertson -- Nic.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, somewhat restive still, people here are taking their daily demonstrations right to the main encampment of the journalists here with the Marines around them at the Palestine hotel yesterday.

We saw the biggest demonstration in the last week, many people coming here to show their frustration and anger that they still don't have electricity in the city, that they don't have water, and that they say that they don't have enough food as well.

It was also a day for General Tommy Franks to come to Baghdad and get his feet on the ground here for the first time. He flew into the Baghdad International Airport, went to one of Saddam Hussein's presidential palaces, very close to the airport. It's a palace that's surrounded by a huge lake.

And General Tommy Franks met with some of his commanders there, got a tour of the premises, and perhaps his most memorable quote, according to the reporters traveling with him, when he saw the gold- plated fixtures in a bathroom there, the presidential palace, making a comparison with the oil-for-food program, said that this must have been the oil-for-palace program.

Also, General Tommy Franks had a secure videophone link-up with President Bush from inside that presidential palace. But likely for General Tommy Franks, a moment that he had been waiting for some time, and a moment that he was able to share with his commanders and thank them for the job that they had done in getting here.

COOPER: Sorry, Nic. I got a question about the water. And we talked a little bit before about the electricity and sort of the timetable for that. What is the problem with the water? I mean, is it just that the pumping stations are down? And is there absolutely no water, I mean, even on street pumps, or is it just inside people's homes there's no water? And if so, how are people getting water? ROBERTSON: Well, there is some water in the city, but the majority of homes here don't have it. And the principal problem is that the pumps for the -- to pump the water around the city are not working, because there's no electricity.

It's not clear exactly how long it will take once the electricity comes back on. If the pipes have to be flushed through, how long it takes the system to fill up again in the city. But that's why most people stopped getting water in their homes. When the electricity went down, the pumps went down, and that's the main reason.

Of course, there are -- there is a large river here in the city, and people can get water from the private wells in their gardens.

The thing that aid agencies caution about the water that people get from their gardens is that the wells are generally sunk a few meters, and while that gets people into the water table, it's a water table that's contaminated with sewage.

And the reason they say that it's contaminated is, the rivers are contaminated with sewage because the sewage system broke down a number of years ago, and that seeps into the high-level groundwater table.

So if people -- what people need to do is sink wells that are some 30 to 40 or 50 meters deep, depending on the area.

So water is still a very big issue, but it should be resolved quickly once the electricity comes back on.

COOPER: All right, Nic in Baghdad, thanks very much. Nic Robertson.

As tough as things may be in Baghdad, in Mosul, in the north, it seems, they are worse. Mosul has, of course, all the combustible ingredients found in Baghdad, plus tension between Kurds trying to return to the city, and Iraqi Arabs who say they don't belong there.

More now from CNN's Ben Wedeman, who joins us from Erbil -- Ben.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Anderson, the situation in that predominantly Sunni Arab city remains extremely tense. We were there earlier, driving around, and you can really feel the anger and the tension just driving around the street.

Now, in the space of the last two days, at least 10 people have been killed and many more wounded in clashes between U.S. troops and local protesters opposed to the American presence there. Now, these clashes have taken place around the only building that U.S. forces still control in central Mosul. That's in the western part of the city. And that's the governor's office. It's something of a Fort Apache in downtown Mosul.

Now, the rest of the western part of the city is a no-man's-land. There are no forces there. What you do have operating in that area are forces still loyal to Saddam Hussein. You have local militias. And you have common criminals. Now, the Kurdish troops who originally occupied the western sector of the city following the surrender of Iraqi forces there about a week ago have pulled out completely from that part of the city. They've pulled back due to the intense friction between the Kurds and the Arabs. And they've redeployed to the Kurdish sector of the city in the east. And that comprises about 30 percent of the population.

So if life is slowly, painfully getting back to normal in much of the rest of Iraq, Mosul appears to be the exception, Anderson.

COOPER: And how many troops are on the ground in Mosul, U.S. troops and Kurdish troops? And you said the Kurdish troops have sort of pulled back. Is that a permanent pullback, or is it unclear at this point?

WEDEMAN: Well, as far as the Kurds go, I think it's pretty much permanent, in the sense that they really can't control that part of the city.

We were in the main square of western Mosul, the Arab part of the city, a couple days ago, when the Kurds were still there. We set up our camera, and within minutes there were -- the Kurds -- the Kurdish forces were shoving Arabs who were trying to speak with us back, and we really had to leave the area, because it looked like there was going to be a fight.

So I don't think the Kurds are going to be returning. Now, how many Kurdish troops are in the city at this point, in the Kurdish section of the city, it's probably around 500 to 600.

As far as the Americans go, in that governor's office, there are, we've been told by the Marines, somewhere between 200 to 250 in that very large building. Now, they also occupy an air base on the edge of town, and there we saw that they are beefing up their forces. How many exactly, it's hard to say, but probably well over 600 or 700 possibly.

And we know that they're bringing in more forces. Now, initially, it was the troops of the 173rd Airborne Brigade, now a Marine expeditionary unit has arrived as well. So they do appear to be beefing up in the city. And there is a plan to increase the number of patrols in the western part of the city. But yesterday, we saw none in that area, Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Ben Wedeman in Erbil, thanks very much. Obviously not the last we are going to hear from Mosul.

Washington is hoping a successful campaign in Iraq is sending a powerful message to neighbors and other countries around the world -- North Korea, Iran, Syria, just to name a few. Some have taken to calling Syria a junior varsity member of the axis of evil. But, of course, in reality, Syria has been on the government's list of rogue nations going back to 1979, long before Iraq.

Here's CNN's Sheila MacVicar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is unfinished business that keeps Syria at what the U.S. calls the terror trade -- a state of war with Israel, not yet resolved in peace. Not wars between states, the Syrian-Israeli border is quiet, but proxy wars, fought by groups like Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, all groups named by the U.S. as terrorist organizations, all groups the U.S. says are sponsored in some way by Syria.

Damascus has helped the U.S. go after al Qaeda, but officials here will not yet renounce the others.

BUTHAINA SHAABAN, SYRIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY SPOKESMAN: Who call these people terrorists? It is the people who occupy their lands and who send them out and expel them out of their land.

MACVICAR: The Syrians still make that old distinction between terrorists and freedom fighters. They do not see that civilian casualties caused by suicide bombers will bring American pressure and perhaps American might.

RICHARD ARMITAGE, DEPUTY SECRETARY OF STATE: We're going to go after these problems just like a high school wrestler goes after a match. We're going to take them down one at a time.

MACVICAR: High on that list is Hezbollah. Sponsored and armed by Syria and Iran, it is Hezbollah fighters who sit on the border between Lebanon and Israel, who drove the Israelis out of south Lebanon after 22 years, the organization the U.S. holds responsible for the deaths of hundreds of American Marines in Beirut in 1983.

Last month, CNN obtained a rare interview with Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, the secretary general of Hezbollah.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACVICAR (on camera): The United States administration calls Hezbollah the A-team of terrorism. They say that you owe the United States a blood debt. They say that there is a price to be paid for that, and that you are on their list, and when the time is right, they are going to come after Hezbollah. What do you think the United States will do, and what will you do?

SHEIKH HASSAN NASRALLAH, SECRETARY GENERAL, HEZBOLLAH (through translator): Hezbollah's problem with the American administration is that we are fighting Israel. And I'm certain if we were to give up the fight against Israel, then there's a very great possibility that Hezbollah would be dropped from the American list of terrorist organizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MACVICAR (voice-over): Under Syrian pressure, Hezbollah has been quiet for these weeks of war in the Middle East. But it could start again, this time with better, more powerful weapons. (on camera): And if Hezbollah were to wage its war again, the Israelis say they would not simply hit missile launchers in south Lebanon. The address, they say, is here in Damascus, and the target would be the Syrian government.

Sheila MacVicar, CNN, Damascus.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, did you notice that shortly after Baghdad fell, North Korea discovered a bit of give on the subject of its nuclear program? Maybe it was just a coincidence, but the North Koreans suddenly agreed to multilateral talks to be held next week in Beijing.

Here's how it all played out, from CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Did U.S. military victory in Iraq persuade North Korean leader Kim Jong-Il to finally agree to talks with China and the United States? The White House and State Department wouldn't say.

But after months of stalemate and heavy criticism of President Bush, who refused to hold one-on-one talks with Pyongyang, calling it nuclear blackmail, there was a sense of vindication.

PHILLIP REEKER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Well, I think our policy has always been the right policy. And we've explained why and pursued that. And now we're going to move forward to this.

KOPPEL: Administration officials said next week's meeting in Beijing would be preliminary, playing down expectations North Korea would quickly abandon threats to begin reprocessing spent fuel rods to make weapons-grade plutonium.

The breakthrough, albeit modest, came after Secretary of State Powell urged Chinese leaders last month to push Pyongyang to agree to multilateral talks. For three days, China cut off oil shipments to North Korea, a strong message from an old communist ally.

But without other key regional players, the talks are still not as inclusive as the U.S. would like.

REEKER: We think that, obviously, the early inclusion of the Republic of Korea and Japan will be essential to reach substantive results.

KOPPEL: The U.S. delegation will be led by Assistant Secretary of State James Kelly, the same official who, last fall, confronted Pyongyang with evidence that the U.S. knew it had a secret nuclear program. Unknown, whether North Korea would ever agree to give up the program in exchange for U.S. security assurance, diplomatic recognition, and economic aid.

JON WOLFSTHAL, CARNEGIE ENDOWMENT FOR PEACE: These talks hopefully will find out, once and for all, whether North Korea is prepared to deal. And, of course, then the question is, is the United States prepared to take yes for an answer?

KOPPEL (on camera): The obstacles to resolving the North Korean nuclear crisis are daunting. The latest hurdle, a U.N. resolution put forward by the European Union and the United States condemning North Korea, for the first time ever, for human rights abuses.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: As NEWSNIGHT continues, we'll talk with Pulitzer Prize- winner Samantha Power about the U.S., human rights, and our standing in the world there, right when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, you could make the argument that America has never been stronger and never more isolated from public opinion around the world. A majority of Americans see the war in Iraq as something good, something justified. Others around the globe see it as an act of aggression.

We want to get more now on American power and policy, and how it's viewed around the world, with Samantha Power. She is the author of "A Problem From Hell: America and Age of Genocide," which won a Pulitzer Prize.

Thanks very much for being with us, Miss Power.

SAMANTHA POWER, AUTHOR, "A PROBLEM FROM HELL": Pleasure.

COOPER: You write -- I read this article you wrote in "The New Republic" recently, I believe it was. In it, in it, in which you say that the problem with America is not its unilateralism, its willingness to act unilaterally, it's its a-la-carteism. What did you mean by that?

POWER: Well, actually, I think it's both, but I think the two concepts are a little distinct. Unilateralism we're all familiar with, it's the tendency to go it alone, to not believe that the U.N. Security Council is the guardian of all values, which I think one has some reason for challenging the U.N. Security Council status, when you have Russia and China as the guardians of human rights. But nonetheless, it is the only show in town.

And yet we tend to sort of go away and try to exempt ourself from the international treaties. So that is a problem with U.S. foreign policy.

But another problem that I think we're slower to acknowledge is a-la-carteism, which is the tendency to believe that the decisions we make in one place have no bearing on decisions we make elsewhere.

So when we go to try to make an argument for why war in Iraq is merited, and we make the security argument or the human rights argument, we can't quite comprehend how our position on climate change, or on farm subsidies, or in backing the Saudi regime, could have bearing on our standing to make that case in international fora.

So what, you know, my argument is, really, is that we need to think much more holistically about an integrated foreign policy that abides by certain principles, not as selectively as we are seen to be abiding by them around the world.

COOPER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and what exactly does that mean? I mean, you are very critical of the U.S. as a world citizen. Who out there is better as a world citizen? I mean, who -- what -- who -- what one model -- what's your model?

POWER: Well, I mean, I'm originally from Ireland. I would like to say that Ireland is a model, but I don't think a state that doesn't have much power is exactly tested.

I think you're right, I think that what we have is a problem of states, states explicitly, when they operate abroad, pursue their vital national interests, and those are defined virtually across the board, with the possible exception of Scandinavia and Canada. Those interests are defined in terms of economic and security gains.

The difference, when it comes to the United States, is the extraordinary capacity we have actually to do good with less, that is, with less of a percentage, as it were, of our resources, in terms of foreign aid, and AIDS funding, and in terms of our diplomatic clout in terms of deterring other states from behaving in certain ways.

Some of that standing, unfortunately, has been forfeited by the level of anti-Americanism that is present around the world.

But I think one does have to acknowledge that all states are motivated by the same forces, by self-interest, and yet we are going to be held accountable for the gap between the values that we get to enjoy at home as Americans, and the sort of lack of adherence to values in our foreign policy more than other countries, because people are watching, number one, and number two, because we have such disproportionate military, economic, and cultural power.

COOPER: So -- so...

POWER: The decisions we make just have such great bearing on the lives of people around the world.

COOPER: So you're acknowledging that you are holding the United States to a higher standard, perhaps, than other nations?

POWER: I don't think I'm holding the United States to a higher standard. I think I'm holding it to the standard that, if you surveyed Americans, these are the values that we get to enjoy at home. We have a Bill of Rights that explicitly constrains us from pursuing raw, unadulterated self interest, defined in the short term.

My argument is not simply now about the welfare of foreign citizens and the way that U.S. decision-making has deleteriously affected their welfare. It's also about American security. There is a lot of anti-Americanism around the world. Some portion of it is simply the product of the power differential, and that's probably incurable.

Some portion of it, as the president said, has to do with a nihilism and antimodern or, you know, fundamentally a desire to keep women down and a detestation of our values that we do enjoy at home.

But a lot of the anti-Americanism out there is the product of us forfeiting what we used to have, I think, on the international stage, which is our soft power. And that is discrete decisions we have made and a perception that we apply our principles, again, the values that we get to enjoy at home, very, very selectively in our...

COOPER: But -- but...

POWER: ... interchanges...

COOPER: ... other than...

POWER: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

COOPER: ... other than for our security concerns, why should we care? Why should the United States care about the perception that people on the streets of Morocco or Paris, for that matter, have of the U.S.? I mean, you could make the argument that people are ill informed, simply, and why should the U.S. care about those people?

POWER: Well, I -- again, I think this administration, the Bush administration, is predicating its policy on an idea that it is better, probably, to be feared than to be liked.

I agree that some measure of fear, or at least some hard power, when it comes to terrorism, is incredibly important. I think we're all better off that al Qaeda is on the run and not enjoying the comfort of, you know, the major towns of Afghanistan, even if they may still be enjoying the comfort of the caves, or discomfort of the caves.

But I think that that discounts, again, the lesson of the last 50 years, which is that our ability to make people want what we want has been a real virtue in terms of bringing about international stability and enhancing U.S. security in the long term.

And in terms of the question that I took to be also beneath your question, which is why should we care about other people around the world, I mean, if you don't care about standing idly by when 800,000 Rwandans are killed, or if you know, you know, don't care about -- I mean, any of the human rights abuses that the fact that 600 people a day dying in South Africa and 8,000 a day are dying in...

COOPER: Right. No, I mean, that's...

POWER: That's...

COOPER: Right.

POWER: ...I mean that's a conversation we can have, but I just think that...

COOPER: Well, no, that actually wasn't...

POWER: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) more valuable.

COOPER: ...that wasn't the subtext of the question. It was more about why it wasn't -- why should we care about people dying in Rwanda?

POWER: And that's a fair question, yes.

COOPER: It was more why should we care about someone's, you know, misperception or their perception of the U.S. as opposed to...

POWER: I hear you. No, that's an important question. And I think, just if I could finish, it is I guess my premise would be different than the administration's, which is that anti-Americanism is a sea in which over the long term, terrorism, it seems to me, is going to thrive, that you are going to get more recruits, and that you're just going to get less cooperation.

COOPER: Right.

POWER: Perhaps not from European governments, who I think the administration is right, are going to kind of go along with us eventually, because they also don't want al Qaeda cells in their countries.

COOPER: Right.

POWER: But over time, I do think that being respected, if not liked, at least being respected as well, and being seen as a global citizen is going to be beneficial.

And if I could say one more things, just...

COOPER: We got to -- I'm sorry.

POWER: Sorry, sure.

COOPER: I'm sorry. I wish we could. We're simply out of time. In fact, we're over time. But I appreciate -- the book is a fascinating book and you're a very good writer. I appreciate you joining us and trying to condense your many ideas into the short time TV allows, but I hope to have you back again some other time. Thanks, Samantha Power.

In our next half hour, Saddam is gone, but his image remains and it is proving tough to get rid of. Christiane Amanpour will have that story.

We'll also talk with the leader of the Iraqi opposition and a man who may have a lot to say about the future of Iraq. That and more when we continue.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, the fate of Saddam Hussein is still, of course, one of the great mysteries of the war, but his presence can still be found throughout Iraq in stone, in tile, in paint, and in the minds of many Iraqis who say they will not feel free, truly free, until they know the dictator is really gone.

The story from Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One week after U.S. Marines toppled Saddam's statue, a week after creating the war's iconic image, the surprise is how tall the fallen strong man still stands.

"He was the people's nightmare," says this man, "and all the pictures and statues were installed by force, but there are too many of them to tear down in one day."

So here Saddam's still the station master. Here he is as traffic cop, as the once forbidden joke went. Still, the people are trying to wipe the slate clean, trying to wipe the smile off his face.

But deeply suspicious, they also want to know where he is.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know.

AMANPOUR: "Where is Saddam," asked Mohammed Ali nervously. "Where is the whole leadership?" If you ask any Iraqi, the ghost of Saddam still hangs over them. We don't believe it yet, says this man.

Without a body, people wonder when they'll ever be able to put Saddam's ghost to rest.

(on camera): And how long will he remain embarrassing unfinished business for the United States, like many of their other most wanted? Osama bin Laden or holdouts like Teradich (ph) and Nardich (ph) from the Bosnian War?

(voice-over): The U.S. now says Saddam's personal fate doesn't matter as much as freedom for the Iraqi people. And they are free to talk, to complain openly. Only many complaints are directed at the United States.

"Our history has disappeared," say these people. "Who will return it to us?" "Why didn't the Marines protect the country's heritage from the looters?" The apocalyptic feel of the day after instills fear and bitterness.

"They came for our oils," shouts this man. "Why didn't they protect our ministry? They've only protected the oil ministry."

It's a conspiracy theory bolstered by a ministry that's untouched, except for Marines using it as a base. Residents survey the rubble of war and ask who will rebuild their infrastructure? They feel too small for such a massive task.

"Saddam is finished," says Halil Moussaoui. "We thank God and extend Iraq's greetings to Mr. Bush and Mr. Blair. But we ask them to give us water, electricity, and medical services."

Amid the fragments of a hated past, the people say they don't want their future tainted by the demons unleashed in that first anarchic week.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, next on NEWSNIGHT, no more politics as usual in Iraq. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: The U.S. talks about bringing democracy to Iraq, but in one small part of the country, there already is democracy built over the past decade by Kurds in the North. The question now is how the Kurds will fit into a new Iraq.

Joining us in Washington, Qubad Talabany, deputy representative of the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan.

Thanks very much for being with us. Can democracy come to Iraq?

QUBAD TALABANY, PATRIOTIC UNION OF KURDISTAN: I think it can. And like you mentioned, we have shown in the north in Iraqi Kurdistan that we can develop a democratic and civil society. We have shown by building the political institutions that we have that we can use this knowledge to help the rest of the country put itself on a path towards democracy.

COOPER: But are you talking about elections in six months? Or are you talking years from now?

TALABANY: I think we have to be careful about how soon we move to elections. We have to put in place the mechanisms, the institutions that can educate the society, and build civic education up from a grassroots level, before we run into national elections.

I do foresee that we may able to have local elections much sooner than we would have national elections.

COOPER: It all sounds like a lot of time. I mean, you're not given a timeline, but it does sound like a lot of time. And that, of course, is not on the side of the U.S. in terms of maintaining a presence in Iraq.

How long do you want to see U.S. forces on the ground in Iraq?

TALABANY: Well, it depends on in what manner we would like the U.S. forces there. We certainly need the basic humanitarian needs at the moment. We need water, we need electricity, we need food, we need the basic services to be provided.

We hope that this interim Iraqi authority can be established as soon as possible to start taking over control and administering the country. And this, in turn, Iraqi authority can put in place the mechanisms that can lead to national general elections.

COOPER: You know, if you watch al Jazeera, if you watch some Arab television stations, it appears as if this is like the worst thing that's ever happened to Iraq, the U.S. presence there. From your perspective, how is it going?

TALABANY: I think it going very well. We have seen the demise of the Ba'ath regime. We saw the sights of the people dancing on the streets and beating the statues with shoes. There is jubilation across the country. I think the military aspect went very smoothly.

Now it's just a process of rebuilding the country along modern and democratic lines, and putting in place a federal democratic system of governance in Iraq.

COOPER: Is there something that you don't think the U.S. gets? I mean, what -- is there something that you wish the U.S. was doing now that they are not?

TALABANY: I think it's important now for the office headed by General Jay Garner to work with the Iraqis to put in place this interim Iraqi authority.

Obviously, the security situation on the ground is very important. The lives of the coalition forces is of paramount importance to us, and we hope to stabilize the situation fully, to create an environment where we can start rebuilding the country.

COOPER: Have you given up the dream of an independent Kurdish state?

TALABANY: Well, we understand that geography inflate -- necessitates that we remain within the boundaries of Iraq. And if that is the case, then so be it. But we have to be first class and full participants with Iraqi society.

That means being at the decisionmaking table in Baghdad, and governing the country as an Iraqi and as an Iraqi Kurd.

COOPER: Let's talk about that a little bit more specifically. I mean, you really have had sort of an independent spot for the last 12 years or so. Do you want exactly that to continue? Do you want a wider piece of territory?

TALABANY: Well, this is a critical issue. We have been living our day after scenario for 12 years now. So in effect, we are 12 years ahead of the rest of the country. What we have put forth is a vision to reintegrate Iraqi Kurdistan within the rest of Iraq, through a federal structure, where we would maintain our level of self governance, hand certain powers back over to the central federal government, such as foreign policy, national defense policy, national economic policy.

But we would still maintain a large degree of control over our local government affairs.

COOPER: All right, Qubad Talabany with the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan, appreciate you joining us, thanks.

TALABANY: Thank you.

COOPER: Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT, we're going to talk with Michael Weisskopf of "Time" magazine.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We're joined in Doha, Qatar by Michael Weisskopf, senior correspondent for "Time" magazine. He's been looking at the challenges facing General Jay Garner in rebuilding Iraq and the challenges are many. He's also been looking at that question of Syria and the hunt for weapons of mass destruction.

So a lot to talk about.

Michael, thanks for being with us. Let's talk about General Jay Garner for a little bit.

MICHAEL WEISSKOPF, "TIME" MAGAZINE: OK.

COOPER: Yesterday, there was this meeting in southern Iraq with some 70 or so Iraqi figures. This guy's got a real tough job ahead of him?

WEISSKOPF: Yes, Anderson. It wasn't so much what happened within the tent, but what happened without. There were demonstrators by the thousands, members of the Shi'ite community who opposed U.S. presence in Iraq.

The real troubling piece of that is that at least part of that Shi'ite community is connected to Gome in the center of Iran. So you've got that hovering over.

And Garner should have expected difficulties in political consolidation because of the three main factions of Iraq. What he didn't reckon with was -- is the fairly bloody schisms just within the Shi'ite community itself. That could make for great difficulty because the Shi'ites are in the majority. And if they can't agree on leadership, it's going to be very hard to cooperate in some type of a larger umbrella.

COOPER: Yes, I mean, the situation in Najaf, which hasn't really gotten a lot of attention over here, but to me is sort of extraordinarily worrying. I mean, you have the Shi'ite clerics supported by the U.S., and in some cases at certain times brought in and protected by the U.S.

You know, stab and or shot to death by a mob in Najaf. I mean, is that a harbinger of things to come?

WEISSKOPF: Yes. I was in Iran 20 odd years ago when the Shah fell and Khomeni took over. And it took Khomeni a full year to pacify his rivals within the Shi'ite community. So he was able to rule with an iron hand.

And often those clashes were bloody. Lots of assassinations. And you may see a replay of that in Iraq.

COOPER: Let's talk about Syria a little bit. What do you think the U.S. wants to gain by pressuring Syria? I mean, a lot of what some might call saber rattling going on, or direct threats?

WEISSKOPF: Well, what you've got here is an unwillingness by Syria to recognize the new world order, at least as Colin Powell sees it. And within that world order, there's a certain amount of cooperation on issues of importance to the United States, including terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, and mopping up both as it has to do with al Qaeda.

So Syria claims, of course, not to have that type of connection. And therein lies the split.

COOPER: There is an -- pretty easy argument to make right now with, you know, the change in attitude in North Korea, or at least the seeming change in their willingness to have multilateral talks. You got some movement on the part of the Israelis. You know, there are those who are saying look, in the coming weeks...

WEISSSKOPF: Yes.

COOPER: ...probably Syria on the side is going to be sending out any Iraqi officials, if in fact Iraqi officials did seek safety there. So there is this new world order, as you call it. I mean, it seems some might say to be working?

WEISSKOPF: Well, add to that even the statement yesterday or today, actually, by Iran about the shape of the new government in Iraq. Iran and its president said that it would not support any U.S. led government.

Of course, that sounded polemical, but U.S. goals are to turn the government over to Iraqis anyway. So it really is quite consistent.

And there is a kind of prevailing trend in this part of the world that it may be quite momentary on the side of the United States.

COOPER: Does that trend, the momentariness, does it depend on whether or not they find weapons of mass destruction? I know that you've been -- the search is something you've been following very closely?

WEISSKOPF: You know, this is key to the president, our president's credibility because he founded his invasion of Iraq primarily on the supposed distance of those weapons.

And now, he cites intelligence of similar weapons in Syria. The Syrians deny that. Certainly, if it turns out that there are no weapons in Iraq, the value of American intelligence will be duly questioned around the world.

COOPER: There was this statement, I think recently, from Tony Franks -- General Franks, basically saying well it might take up to a year, which would certainly set the time table back a great deal. So who knows in a year where we're all going to be and what we're going to be focused on. So it'll be interesting to see.

That's all the time we have, Michael Weisskopf. Appreciate you joining us, Michael from "Time" magazine from Doha, Qatar. Thanks very much.

Coming up next, a trip to the Baghdad Zoo, where it's a lion eat wolf world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, finally tonight, a trip to the zoo. The Baghdad zoo, that is. The trip taken by CNN's Michael Holmes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Major Rick Nussio takes a soldier's precautions as he prepares to enter the building. Safety off, taking his time, peering in before he enters the lion's den because that is what this is.

MAJ. RICK NUSSIO, TASK FORCE COMMANDER: Yes, here's the big male. Yes, all the cages are secure.

HOLMES: Welcome to Baghdad Zoo and some of its forlorn, listless residents. Six lions here who had their last meal two days ago, courtesy of the U.S. Army. They will eat again later this day.

This massive park in central Baghdad contains the city zoo. A few days ago, however, it was a battlefield inside the red zone. Iraqi soldiers had set up artillery, anti-aircraft guns. The animals deserted, ignored, no doubt terrified.

When the Army came through, the soldiers couldn't believe what they'd found.

NUSSIO: I think it was somewhat surreal. I mean, you know, here we are, and we're in the middle of a city. And everybody's talked about urban combat for two or three months. And next thing you know, there's camels walking through our positions and monkeys in the tree, and at night, you have a lion roaming free. It was very surreal, very strange.

HOLMES: Not just lions and camels, but two bears, listless and hungry. An Osciolot (ph) and more.

NUSSIO: I just don't think it was something we could have turned our back on.

HOLMES: And so they did not turn their backs. Soldiers, fresh from fierce combat, have become zookeepers on a mission, to keep the animals who remain here alive.

NUSSIO: The lions were just coming up out of this moat. One in particular, one of the male lions, and he was standing right here. And literally reaching through the cage.

HOLMES (on camera): One of the most bizarre incidents witnessed by soldiers happened here at the outside fence. A camel, electrical cord wrapped around its neck, and a group of Iraqis trying to drag it over the fence. The soldiers intervened, the camel got away. He's still out there somewhere.

(voice-over): The plight of some of these animals is pitiful. Zoo workers long gone, who knows how long these creatures went without?

Pigs were once here, but no more. They had to be sacrificed, the meat rationed to feed the carnivores something.

NUSSIO: Here's the porcupines.

HOLMES: And near them, a wolf out of his cage, near death. Domestic dogs in their cages. One has died, the others emaciated.

There's not even running water here. The soldiers and some locals cart it in by hand. In this case, to a grateful bear, who curiously shares his cage with a dog.

Back at the lion enclosure, we learn the wolf we saw earlier had died. He becomes meager rations for the hungry beasts.

NUSSIO: He's a beautiful animal. Absolutely gorgeous. We'll get you something. We'll get you something.

Michael Holmes, CNN, at the Baghdad Zoo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Lions, and tigers and bears, oh, my. That's about it for me tonight. Have a good night. Thanks for watching.

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