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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Body of Laci Peterson, Baby Identified; Husband Scott Arrested
Aired April 18, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Well, good evening again.
Proof tonight that we are truly getting back to normal, that in the midst of a huge and important story like Iraq, we also have a small, compelling one to contend with tonight as well, that being the mystery of Laci Peterson, the identification of her body and that of her unborn child, and the arrest of her husband.
We'll have a lot in the next two hours on the big story, Iraq, but we'll start the whip-off with the small one, which takes us to Modesto, California.
Rusty Dornin is there covering the Laci Peterson case. So Rusty, a headline from you tonight.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it's been a very tough day here in Modesto as DNA scientists say there is no question the bodies in San Francisco Bay were that of Laci Peterson and her unborn child.
Meanwhile, police say they believe they have their man, the man they've suspected for the last four months, her husband, Scott Peterson.
BROWN: Rusty, thank you. Back to you shortly.
To Baghdad next, a day that brought thousands out in protest, protests against Saddam Hussein and the United States.
Nic Robertson there for us. So Nic, a headline from you.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, big anti-American demonstrations, new politicians stepping forward, getting their voices heard for the first time. And some sense of normality. Big numbers back out on the streets in Baghdad, Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you.
On to the mystery of that new video that surfaced today that is said to be Saddam Hussein.
David Ensor following that. David, a headline.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, we don't know if it's him. It looks like it probably is. And the question is, when was it recorded? Because if it was recorded recently, he might still be alive.
BROWN: David, thank you.
And the latest message from the White House, a situation involving North Korea, another huge story to deal with.
Senior White House correspondent John King with us. John, a headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, alarm this morning that North Korea was raising the stakes in the nuclear standoff just before scheduled diplomatic talks early next week. Tonight, another translation of that North Korean statement. The White House says it is far less concerned. Still a question, though, as to whether those talks will proceed as scheduled.
BROWN: John, thank you. Back with you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on a Friday edition of NEWSNIGHT, the agonizing search for the victims of Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraqis hoping beyond hope that just maybe a loved one is still alive somewhere.
And wherever he is, he may still think Iraq is winning the war, the Iraqi information minister. Now you too can enjoy some of his most beloved and bizarre statements in the comfort of your own home.
All of that ahead. Much more too in the next two hours.
We begin with a piece of reality, the big pieces of the day. Two images in Iraq stand out. One grabbed most of the headlines, the other got less play, but may, in fact, be the shape of things to come.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims gathered together in Baghdad today for Friday prayers -- unusual, since both branches of Islam normally worship apart.
After that, both groups joined forces again, this time for more demonstrations, very large ones, and carefully positioned near the Western press. Protests over many things American, delays in getting the city back to normal, protests against Israel, and mostly, protests against the United States staying too long.
A tightrope to walk for American officials and for exiled leaders like Ahmed Chalabi, who was careful to say that whatever normal is, it will take some time.
AHMED CHALABI, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: I expect this stage to take a few weeks. Then the Iraqi interim authority will be formed by Iraqis, chosen by Iraqis, and will consist of Iraqis only.
BROWN: Causing the most stir, however, were these pictures from Abu Dhabi Television, purporting to show Saddam Hussein surrounded by cheering crowds in Baghdad just 10 days ago, the same day his statue fell.
There was an audio recording released as well, but no one could be certain if the man in the videotape was Saddam, and if it was, when it was recorded.
Another look today at those seven released American prisoners of war, waving from the balcony of a military hospital in Germany. They expect to be home Saturday.
Also on Friday, the capture of another top leader of the former regime. He is Samir al-Najim, someone, says Central Command, who knows a great deal about how things worked under Saddam Hussein.
MAJ. GEN. VINCENT BROOKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: He was a Ba'ath Party official, a regional command chairman for the Baghdad district, and is believed to have firsthand knowledge of the Ba'ath Party central structure.
BROWN: There was a nighttime raid by Australian commandos in the desert of western Iraq. And by daylight, you could see 51 MIG fighters that were seized, still under their camouflage netting. Not a one flew during the war.
Still no word from the north on exactly who is buried in these mass graves found outside Kirkuk. Only a handful of the 1,500 or so are marked. The rest just mounds in a large field.
In Baghdad, the Army has now taken over much of the duty from the Marines, patrolling the streets, which are generally quiet, once you get outside the arc of the demonstrations.
And at the church service for Christians in Baghdad on this Good Friday, there was time for a moment of reflection in a city that is still very much unsettled.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That is the big picture in Iraq today, and we'll spend some time now putting the smaller pieces of that picture into clearer view, beginning with the demonstrations in Baghdad, and what we've come to see as the elephant in the room.
What happens if a liberated and democratic Iraq freely and democratically decides it wants to be a fundamentalist Islamic republic?
The pictures today make a powerful statement in that direction, but clearly there's much more going on than that.
So we begin with Nic Robertson, who's in Baghdad. Nic?
ROBERTSON: Aaron, certainly those clerics that we see leading that anti-American message in the mosques today, the Friday prayer day, following on the same -- very much the same message they used to put forward under Saddam Hussein, that is, the United States coming into Iraq is really part of a Zionist plan to -- for the United States, for Israel, to dominate this particular region.
Perhaps that's why those clerics are choosing this message as they try to unify their religious leadership positions, if you will, and try and maximize and get some political capital, perhaps not thinking more broadly to find a message that will bring people behind them, other than this old message that the United States is the devil and should be downtrodden.
Certainly the picture that we're seeing emerging from the Shi'a community, who make up 60 percent of Iraq outside of Baghdad in some of the smaller communities, in their main religious towns, in Najaf and in Karbala to the south, that is the message that it is emerging that these religious leaders want to unify the religious bloc behind them, the Shi'a Muslims, 60 percent of the country, behind them, because they believe that's the way they can have their biggest political voice.
And I think to a degree, that is what we've seen in Baghdad. But it was the Shi'as and the Sunni Muslims. But it is these religious leaders trying, struggling to make -- turn themselves into political leaders, and turning to that old message that they believe can rally people behind them.
But it's yet to be seen if this is going to win them a broader consensus.
We've also seen today for the first time since returning from exile, Ahmed Chalabi, leader of Iraq's Iraqi National Congress, laying out his view for Iraq. Now, he said today that what he wants to do is rebuild civil society, because, he says, that is the way to get back to democracy.
And he outlined the steps to which, towards which Iraq will take to get to that democracy. He said an interim government would be formed. They would put forward a new constitution. A committee would look at that newly proposed constitution. If everyone liked it, then there will be a referendum across the country on the constitution. Based on that constitution, there would then be a vote for a new government.
He said that would take about two years. But what shall -- the test, if you will, that Chalabi faces, that these religious leaders don't face, is that there is huge resentment to any Iraqi who has returned from exile. Many people here see these figures as having managed to avoid the hardships of living under Saddam Hussein and his regime.
And for that reason, why they may have a very good political view of what they think should happen in Iraq, they do not have that broad base of support that perhaps these religious leaders already have somewhat of a head start on, Aaron.
BROWN: I suspect for many people in Baghdad and around the country, politics is important, but not nearly as important as getting the water running and the power on. How are those basic services going? ROBERTSON: Somewhere behind the scenes, the city's old engineers back at the power plants outside of Baghdad, along with the U.S. military here, are working hard to get them restarted. There have been helicopter flights up and down the power lines, engineers working on the plants.
We understand the problems at this time are not in the generating equipment. But when they -- when the engineers want to switch on the national grid, they say they need to have a huge surge of current to do that. And there are breakdowns in the grid system. They want to bring power in from north of Iraq to Baghdad. And bringing all this together requires a huge survey.
Nobody is clear why the power grid went down in the first place. The coalition didn't bomb it, the Iraqis say they didn't switch it off. And nobody really has a clear idea. But certainly some people believe looters have also taken a toll in all of this, stolen some of the smaller substation equipment.
So it's a work in progress. Nobody still has a date for it to be completed. But it is the most important thing at this time that people in Baghdad and around say they want, Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you, Nic Robertson, who's in Baghdad on a Saturday morning there.
Here's another piece of the puzzle to put into place, the tape purportedly showing Saddam Hussein out and about just nine days ago. No question American officials hope the day comes when a Saddam sighting would be as easily ignored as an Elvis sighting. No question either, we are not there yet.
Iraq today lives in a power vacuum and a truth vacuum as well, both of which are making the tape more important than it otherwise might be.
Our national correspondent, CNN's David Ensor, joins us with more on the tape -- David.
ENSOR: Well, Aaron, clearly the people who put the tape out are hoping that it will inspire those who still want to fight for Saddam, that it will inspire fear in those who feared him in the first place, and that it will be a problem for the U.S. forces, for the coalition forces in Iraq.
And it is a problem, for the moment, at least. But the real question, from the point of view of U.S. intelligence officials is, not so much whether it's him or not. They suspect it probably is. But when was it recorded?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR (voice-over): The question for U.S. intelligence, were these two images recorded on the same day? Was Saddam Hussein rallying supporters in one Baghdad neighborhood, even as his statue came down in another part of town on April 9? The Alazamiyah neighborhood is just over four miles from Firdos Square, where U.S. forces helped bring down the statue. Assuming this is Saddam, and if it really were recorded on April 9, then clearly he survived the attempt to kill him on the evening of April 7.
So, apparently, did his son Qusay, seen on the new tape just to the right of his father.
There were reports Saddam Hussein might have been in Alazamiyah April 9, but CNN could not find anyone in the neighborhood Friday who remembered seeing him since March. U.S. officials are skeptical too, partly because of their analysis of this other tape, released earlier. It was said to be Saddam Hussein on the streets of Baghdad on April 4.
Not true, say U.S. officials. They believe it was most likely taped in early March. They base that on certain changes in the background to buildings and the like. Note also the relatively warm clothes worn, suitable for early March. By April, it had gotten much warmer.
Administration officials from the president on down are saying what matters is not whether the dictator still lives, but that the regime's control has collapsed. But to U.S. military and intelligence officials, Saddam Hussein's fate does matter.
KEN POLLACK, SABAN CENTER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: As long as Saddam Hussein is out there, the United States is not going to be finished with this war, at least in the sense that as long as Saddam is out there, there may be loyalists who are willing to fight for him.
ENSOR: As for the audiotape also broadcast Friday by Abu Dhabi Television, U.S. intelligence will be able to say soon whether it's Saddam Hussein's voice or not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): We are confident that victory at the end will be ours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: The trouble is, whether it's his voice or not, there may be no way to assess when it was made. So the audiotape may not provide any clue as to whether Saddam Hussein is alive or dead, obviously something U.S. officials would very much like to know.
Back to you.
BROWN: Well, David, is there anything in -- forget who speaks the words for a second. Is there anything in the words themselves that indicate that Baghdad has fallen, or is about to fall, or that the war is lost, and we have to live to fight another day? Is there anything like that in the tapes? ENSOR: There's a kind of a sense that victory in the end will be ours, that obviously there have been some setbacks, is implied. But there really is nothing specific that could pin it down to, say, any time since early March.
BROWN: And what -- just one (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
ENSOR: So it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) doesn't add much.
BROWN: I'm sorry. And was the tape- I know Abu Dhabi TV aired the tape. Was the tape widely seen in Iraq?
ENSOR: No, because of the power shortages that you were just talking about with Nic. Very few people will have seen the tape in Iraq. More may have heard on the radio some of the audiotape. But it may not have a whole lot of impact on Iraq. Of course, it's having a lot of impact worldwide.
BROWN: David, thank you. National security correspondent David Ensor tonight.
The manhunt now. Just a handful of Iraq's most wanted have been captured to date. Kurdish forces handed over one of them today. He was caught in northwest Iraq, where American forces are doing much of the hunting.
We go now to CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Jamie, good evening.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.
Well, U.S. military forces are increasing their manhunt for Iraqi officials from the former regime. They are looking increasingly in northwestern Iraq, near the Syrian border. And to some extent, they're peering over the border itself.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Pentagon sources say U.S. special operations forces are now concentrating their manhunt in northwestern Iraq, where it is believed a large number of fugitive officials may have gathered to try to get into Syria. Sources say the U.S. believes number eight on the most-wanted list, Kamal Mustafa Abdallah Sultan al-Tikriti, the former secretary of the Republican Guard and special Republican Guard, may have already made it across the border.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We know that Syria is harboring some of the senior regime leadership, at least their families, probably some of the senior members. We know that.
MCINTYRE: Syria says it has now sealed its border and recently turned back Abu Abbas, the Palestinian who plotted the "Achille Lauro" hijacking, as well as Barzan Ibrahim Hassan al-Tikriti (ph), one of Saddam Hussein's half-brothers. Both men were subsequently captured by U.S. troops in Iraq. The U.S. believes the key to finding where weapons of mass destruction are hidden is finding the people who may have hidden them.
BROOKS: From all those that we have access to, we seek information. Some are more cooperative than others.
MCINTYRE: Of the 55 most-wanted Iraqis depicted on playing cards given to U.S. troops, so far, the U.S. only has four in hand. The most recent capture, Ba'ath Party official Samir Abdul Aziz al-Najim (ph), was handed over to coalition forces by Iraqi Kurds near Mosul.
One other leader, the man nicknamed Chemical Ali by the United States, is believed to have been killed in a U.S. air strike. But whether a strike on this Baghdad neighborhood killed Saddam Hussein and his two sons remains an open question, because U.S. forces have not been able to take the time to excavate the site.
BROOKS: We don't have any remains that have been identified at this point, but our efforts are ongoing to find all we can about that. And also to get information from others who may have had knowledge as to what happened that night during the strike.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now, one key Iraqi leader who was not on the top 55 most-wanted list has turned himself in to American authorities in Iraq. His name is Imab Hassan al-Ani (ph), and he is believed to be the father of Iraq's VX nerve gas program. But when he talked to American officials in Iraq, he said, like the science adviser before him, that he had no knowledge that Iraq had any weapons of mass destruction, Aaron.
BROWN: Do you know where these men are being held?
MCINTYRE: We don't know where they're being held. We believe it's in Iraq, but the U.S. military has not been specific about where they're being held.
BROWN: OK, Jamie, thank you. Our senior White House correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, tonight.
A little more international story here before we turn to domestic news. North Korea and some last-minute hitches in the runup to talks next week, at least scheduled for next week, in Beijing. Negotiations are aimed at getting the north to wind down its nuclear program. Just getting to the table was seen as a victory by the White House.
The hitch today came in a statement that seemed to say the nuclear program in North Korea is winding back up. But things are rarely that simple where these things are concerned, so we'll leave it to CNN's John King, our senior White House correspondent, to sort it all out. John, good evening.
KING: Good evening to you, Aaron.
Much less concern at the White House tonight, still, though, a great deal of confusion. This is the controversy. In an English- language statement put out by the North Korean government earlier today, North Korea said that it was in the final stages of reprocessing spent fuel rods from a nuclear facility.
And if that were true, it would mean that North Korea was very close to having enough new nuclear material to produce more nuclear weapons.
Now, the State Department says it went back to the initial Korean-language version of the statement from the North Korean government, and what it believes the North Korean government was trying to say is that there have been steps taken to get to the brink of reprocessing, but that the reprocessing, the actual reprocessing, has not begun.
That is a significant difference, of course, if North Korea is talking about developing nuclear weapons.
Still open, though, is whether this statement, even if it is not quite reprocessing, viewed as provocative by the Bush White House just three days before you are supposed to have diplomatic consultations involving the United States, China, and North Korea.
So the White House tonight says it is considering whether to go forward with those talks. Claire Buchan, a White House spokeswoman with the president in Crawford, Texas, saying this, quote, "We are consulting with other interested states, and once we have a clear set of the facts and the views of our friends and allies, we'll make a decision as to how to proceed. So we're evaluating the statement, and we're consulting with others."
Japan and South Korea chief among the others the Bush White House is consulting. We are told tonight, though, that based on the second translation, they do not believe North Korea is actually reprocessing the spent fuel. If that is the agreement, the belief into the weekend, we are told by a senior official to expect those talks to go forward early next week in Beijing.
Still don't -- no official confirmation of that just yet, Aaron.
BROWN: Ah, do just a little back and fill here. The North Koreans wanted one-on-one talks with the Americans. The Americans didn't. Beijing sort of served as a convenient negotiating center, if you will?
KING: Yes. The Chinese government, after weeks of resisting calls from the United States to step up to the plate, if you will, and put pressure on North Korea, made a decision over the last week or so that it would intervene. So it will host the talks in Beijing. The Bush White House is grateful for the support of the Chinese government in this regard.
The initial position of the Bush White House was that Japan and South Korea should be involved in any discussions. But the White House will take trilateral talks for now. We are told, though, Ambassador James Kelly, the assistant secretary of state, who leads the U.S. delegation, will insist if the talks progress to a second and a third round and so on that Japan and South Korea must be brought in.
BROWN: John, thank you. Our senior White House correspondent, John King. Have a good weekend.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT for Friday, the 18th of April, an arrest in the Laci Peterson case. The identification of the remains found as well.
And later tonight, he was a running joke in the war. Now he'll run his mouth just for you. What a doll.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back now to the case of Laci Peterson and the arrest today of her husband in California. It's a mystery that dates back to Christmas Eve. That was the day Ms. Peterson went missing, eight months pregnant with the boy she was going to name Connor. Now we know it was their remains that were found in San Francisco Bay earlier this week.
So we go back to Modesto, California, and CNN's Rusty Dornin, who's covering the story. Rusty, good evening.
DORNIN: well, Aaron, you know, for the past four months, Scott Peterson has loomed large in this investigation. But for four months, the police have been telling us he was neither ruled in nor ruled out as a suspect. But, of course, all the searches of his home, of his boat, of his truck, and also the searches of San Francisco Bay, where he claimed to have gone fishing the day his wife disappeared, all seemed to point directly to Scott.
But it wasn't until those bodies were uncovered this week in San Francisco Bay that floated to shore that the Modesto police felt they could finally make their move.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF ROY WASDEN, MODESTO POLICE: Scott Peterson has been arrested. That he is in the custody of Modesto Police Department detectives. That he is being transferred here to Stanislaus County. He will be booked to the Stanislaus County Jail when he arrives. And that the jurisdiction in this case will be turned over to the district attorney, Jim Brazelton, to move this case forward.
JIM BRAZELTON, STANISLAUS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: And we will be more than likely arraigning him on Monday, possibly Tuesday, in the superior court of Stanislaus County. He'll be charged with capital murder.
QUESTION: Does that mean you're going to seek the death penalty?
QUESTION: How many counts?
BRAZELTON: It doesn't mean we're going to seek the death penalty automatically. There are a number of things that we take into consideration when making that decision. But by charging special circumstances, that is one of the options.
QUESTION: Are you charging special circumstances?
BRAZELTON: I'm sorry, the...
QUESTION: Will there be special circumstances?
BRAZELTON: Yes, the special circumstance of double homicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DORNIN: Now, this, of course, is a terrible kind of closure for Laci Peterson's family. It's been a very tough time. They backed Scott Peterson in the very beginning. They felt he was a very loving husband to their daughter. And their trust was shattered after learning about an affair, about learning that he had sold their car and tried to sell the house.
And it was -- comes at a very difficult time that these bodies were identified as their daughter and their grandson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM PETERSEN, FAMILY SPOKESWOMAN: Just as Christmas Eve is a family time, Easter is also a time for families. We request that you would allow our family to have this weekend to deal with these recent developments together in private. We ask for your understanding during this difficult time and respect our need for this privacy.
Please do not call any of our family members at their homes or on their cell phones. The family will make a statement Monday afternoon at 4:00 here at the police department.
We appreciate those of you who have in the past honored these requests and will continue to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DORNIN: No, I'm going to talk about this -- the...
Now, sources close to the -- very close to the investigation have told CNN that actually on March 12 and 13 they did do a sonar search up in the San Francisco Bay. They located something they absolutely believe was the body, but very bad weather, and because it's in the shipping lanes and churned up so much mud, disturbed that area, they believe that the body may have come loose from the weights that were weighting it down into the bay.
They are planning on going back out once again with the sonar to do more searching to see if they can turn up possibly more remains of Laci Peterson.
But, again, Aaron, this is a very difficult time in this community. People were hoping and praying, I think, even up to the last minute, that somehow she might be found alive.
BROWN: OK, Rusty, thank you. We'll have more for you -- from you later in the program tonight.
Jeffrey Toobin is here with us. He's actually in Connecticut and joins us now, our legal analyst.
Jeffrey, good evening to you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Aaron.
BROWN: Special circumstances, multiple murder, two counts of murder under California law. The fetus and unborn child is considered a human being under the law.
TOOBIN: It's an unusual law. Only a handful of states have one like this. And it's actually been sort of caught up in abortion politics. But in California, murdering a fetus can be like murdering a person. And so. because this crime is now charged as a double murder, of a fetus and of a person, that is the special circumstance that makes Scott Peterson eligible for the death penalty.
BROWN: One quick death penalty question. I want to talk about evidence. California have a full death row? Do they apply the death penalty frequently?
TOOBIN: California has a -- the one of the biggest death rows in the country, and almost no one gets executed. They execute less than one person a year. I believe there's something like 600 people on death row. At the current pace, if someone is sentenced to death this year, next year, they will clearly die of old age before they're executed.
So the death penalty in California is kind of a theoretical death penalty more than an actual death penalty.
BROWN: What do we know about evidence here?
TOOBIN: Well, the way it looks now is that it's a purely circumstantial case. There is -- there are no eyewitnesses, there's no murder weapon, there's no cause of death known. But, you know, when we talk about circumstantial evidence, it's also important to point out that the prisons are full of people convicted just on circumstantial evidence.
It seems to me the biggest piece of evidence here is that the bodies of the two victims were discovered within a couple of miles where Scott Peterson says he was on the day that Laci disappeared. And for people who are unfamiliar with California geography, Modesto, where they were in the morning, where they lived, is a long way -- I believe it's about 80 miles -- from the part of San Francisco Bay where both Scott Peterson and the bodies were.
That's a very suspicious circumstance. That's going to be tough to explain. BROWN: He said he had gone off fishing, as I recall. And that was his reason for being there. Is there other, or is there any, that you know of, that we know of, physical evidence that connects him to the case?
TOOBIN: Well, perhaps to the credit of the Modesto Police Department, they've been pretty cautious about letting any specific evidence leak out. One possible piece of evidence that's been talked about is a possible bloodstain -- could be his blood, could be Laci Peterson's blood -- in his truck.
What makes this complicated is, because they were husband and wife, there could be innocent explanations for why hair, trace blood evidence of hers, might be in his truck. But it's certainly suspicious and would add to the circumstances pointing towards his guilt.
BROWN: This is -- we're just looking at the truck here, Jeffrey, I'm not sure if you can see it or not. The idea -- the notion of trace evidence, of transfer evidence or trace evidence on a body that had been in the water as long as this one, is that out of the question?
TOOBIN: I think it's pretty close to out of the question.
One of the thins we learned in the news conference tonight is that the coroner said, at this point, he had not even been able to determine cause of death, so, whether it was drowning, whether there had been any sort of blunt trauma. And not to be too graphic, as I understand it, the head on the body of Laci Peterson is missing. So that part of the body has not even been recovered.
It's a little like the Chandra Levy case. The actual -- the body was recovered, but did not produce much evidence, much evidence to lead to any arrest. Here, the location of the body was very important, but actual evidence produced there doesn't seem to have come up with much at all.
BROWN: So, based on what you know now -- and there's a lot obviously that neither of us knows at this point -- why is this considered such a strong case against the husband?
TOOBIN: Well, I think, in cases like this, the question that all of us ask and the question that a jury certainly asks is: If not the husband, who did this? Who had a motive?
Remember, Scott Peterson also was having an extramarital affair, a possible motive there. That's the toughest obstacle here. But it is a circumstantial case and there are other possibilities. Remember, one issue that may come up -- it's awkward to talk about on a night like this -- but suicide would be a possible defense in this case, that she took her own life and wound up in the water there.
It's a strong case because it is simply implausible to most people that anyone other than her husband could have murdered her. BROWN: Jeffrey, we'll talk more about this in a half-hour or so. We'll look again at the developments of the day -- Jeff Toobin with us tonight. Nice to have you back with us, another sign of normal returning.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT for a Friday night: The new Saddam Hussein tapes, are they real and is that the real Saddam Hussein? And still searching everywhere for hidden prisons in Baghdad.
From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Ken Pollack joins us once again tonight. A lot on the table where Iraq is concerned, so we'll get straight to it. Ken is a CNN analyst, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. And he's in Washington tonight.
It's good to see you.
What's your gut tell you about that tape today? Is it nine days old and was it Saddam?
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, I think it may be Saddam. But, as always, we have got to be really careful. It's so hard to tell with the naked eye whether it actually is.
The date, I think, is much more uncertain. I really can't tell too much about that. But I'll be honest with you, Aaron. The thing that's most interesting to me is the presence of Qusay, because if we can date that and if it is possible to date it to April 9, what that suggests is, whoever that person is with the mustache standing up, whether it's Saddam or one of his doubles, that is very clearly Qusay, Saddam's second son, the second most powerful man in Iraq. And if it is dated to April 9, it makes it clear that Qusay, at least, has survived those initial attacks.
BROWN: And, Ken, why does it -- honestly, why does it matter, given the state of play in the country right now? The Americans or the coalition, however you want to phrase it, controls the country, or at least the cities in the country. There's no question where Iraq is headed. It may be a bumpy road. So what does it matter?
POLLACK: Yes, it mostly doesn't matter, Aaron. And I think you're absolutely right. And I think that the Bush administration is generally correct in saying that what matters about Saddam Hussein, the reason he was a threat was because he controlled Iraq. He no longer controls Iraq. And if he doesn't control Iraq, he can't really threaten the Iraqi people, the region, the United States, or anyone else.
But, by the same token, you can't dismiss it entirely. There's still an issue out there, which is that, as long as Saddam Hussein is believed to be alive, we may have Saddam's loyalists who are willing to still fight. And what's more, you may still have Iraqis who have it in the back of their heads that Saddam Hussein might come back to trouble them. That might make it a bit more difficult to move forward with the reconstruction effort.
So, for all those reasons, it would be better for the U.S. to have actually got Saddam in custody or make certain that he is dead. But it isn't critical.
BROWN: I'm remembering, I think it was a week ago tonight. There was a piece of sound from a civil engineer in Iraq. He is literally standing in the shadow of an American tank and he's afraid to say anything, for fear that Saddam is not really gone.
In a society that has been ruled the way that one is, I guess you want to see the body before you're sure.
POLLACK: Yes, I think that's absolutely right, Aaron.
I use the glib line a week or two ago that the Iraqis are going to believe that Saddam is alive until they see his body hanging from a lamppost in Baghdad. I probably should have restated that to say, until they see four bodies, identical bodies, hanging from one lamppost after another, because they have been deeply traumatized by this man's regime.
And even when they do believe he's dead, it probably is going to take some time, even after that, to come to grips with that, and to start to think and live their lives in a different fashion.
BROWN: Let's move off this for a bit.
Just give me your sense of what the last week, how you view the successes of the last week for the Americans and the disappointments in the last week.
POLLACK: Well, let me start with the successes. And I think that definitely have been successes. There are humanitarian successes. The situation in the south is getting alleviated. There is water coming into the country. There is food coming into the country. U.S. forces are starting to move out and to start with deal with some of the most pressing humanitarian needs.
That said, I think that this was a week which saw the U.S. stumble in some important ways. And, in particular, again, it gets back to the expectations. The U.S. military didn't seem ready, the U.S. administration didn't seem ready for success. And, as a result, key decisions hadn't been made. You didn't see troops moving out and doing important things like guarding the Iraq museum, where all those antiquities were looted from, like guarding many Iraqi ministries.
And, in fact, the fact the U.S. forces did go and rush to guard the Iraqi Oil Ministry -- and I think they did it with the best of intentions, because U.S. forces are well aware that the Iraqis are going to need their oil wealth to help them rebuild their country. But that gets lost in the Arab and it gets lost to the Iraqis.
And what they saw was the U.S. rushing to protect Iraqi oil and not caring about Iraqi heritage. And that may have the unfortunate effect of reinforcing, in the minds of many Iraqis, their belief that the U.S. is in Iraq to colonize the place and steal its oil.
BROWN: Ken, thank you. Good to have you with us again.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I assume we'll talk next Friday, if not before.
(LAUGHTER)
POLLACK: I wouldn't know what else to do with my Friday evenings.
BROWN: Thank you. I wouldn't either. Thank you, Ken.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT still on this Friday: rumors and anguish in Iraq over missing loved ones and hidden prisons. This is an incredibly compelling story.
And later: making a toy out of the strangest spokesman since Joe Isuzu.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: No matter where you stand in the Middle East, the war in Iraq was a seismic event. We spent a good deal of time looking at the impact in the Arab world. We'll take a moment tonight to focus on Israel.
We're joined now by Alon Pinkas, Israel's consul-general here in New York.
It's good to see you.
ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL-GENERAL: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Someone said to me, well, the good news from the Israeli side is, Saddam has gone, and the bad news from the Israeli side is, Saddam has gone, that the pressure now comes on your government to move on the Palestinian question. Do you feel that at all?
PINKAS: Yes, but that's not bad news, necessarily. That, in fact, is good news, news that we welcome.
Once the Iraqi military threat is or has been eliminated, the threat on Israel has been eliminated, once Syria is isolated and under tremendous diplomatic pressure, once the entire Arab world is under such pressures in trying to cope with the new landscape of the Middle East, in fact, this new ascendancy of the U.S. in the Middle East, that's good news for Israel. That's good news peace prospects. That's good news for the entire region.
BROWN: At some point soon, we assume that the Palestinians will, in fact, form a new government, the road map will be released and a whole new chapter starts to get written. Do you see it as an historic moment or just the beginning of what may end up to be an historic moment?
PINKAS: The latter, rather than the former.
It's a beginning. It's a promising beginning. I would advise caution and patience. These are, as you called it yourself, seismic events, tectonic movements. And it is going to take time for this region to adjust to these changes. I see a beginning, a new Palestinian government, a realization, an increasing realization in the Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular that the only way to go about normalization of life, wealth and health, political, economic, social, is to come to terms with this new reality.
And part of it is going to be accommodation with Israel.
BROWN: We've never talked about this. Talk about this for a second. One of the arguments that people made in opposition to the war in Iraq, when they look at the situation in the Middle East, is, they say, the Israelis ignore U.N. resolutions. Why does the United States allow them to do that? The Israelis have weapons of mass destruction? Why can't Syria? There's a double-standard, these people argue.
I assume you don't accept that. Tell me why.
PINKAS: Well, I question the premise.
First of all, we have complied with every U.N. Security Council resolution. In fact, if you look at the first U.N. Security Council resolution of importance, of relevance, to this, it's Resolution 181 from 1947, which mandated the division or the partition of the land into a Jewish and a Palestinian state. We said yes. This is one year before Israeli independence.
The Palestinians, and the entire Arab world, indeed, said no. We have complied with Resolutions 243 and 338, perhaps not fully, but for lack of a viable Palestinian partner. We have complied with Resolution 425 by withdrawing from Lebanon in May of 2000. We have complied with the majority of U.N. Security Council resolutions.
Having said that, Aaron, during the '60s, the '70s, and well into the '80s, the structure of the U.N., the division of the world was such that a transient majority could have decided and given it the authority of the Security Council that Earth is flat, rather than round. You had the nonaligned. You had the Soviet Union. These are automatic voting blocs. Many of these anti-Israeli resolutions passed because of the nature of the composition of the U.N.
You asked a second question about weapons of mass destruction.
BROWN: Right.
PINKAS: We have always, always said that the entire Middle East should be free of weapons of mass destruction. That has been our policy for many decades. That has been our outspoken and ostensible policy for the last decade, ever since the Oslo process began in the early to mid-'90s.
In the context of comprehensive peace, normalization, the entire region should be dealt with as one, including countries as far as Iran in the east and Libya in the west. We're not afraid to deal with the question of weapons of mass destruction.
BROWN: We will, I suspect, in the next weeks have more opportunities to talk more specifically about the road map, I hope, and the implications for both sides.
It's nice to see you. Come back and see us.
PINKAS: Any time, Aaron. Thank you for having me.
BROWN: OK, Alon Pinkas, the consul-general here in New York for the government of Israel.
We'll take a break. When we come back: searching for lost loved ones and secret jails in Iraq.
This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There is about Baghdad these days a sense of desperation. Everywhere, it seems, people are desperate to get water and power, people desperate to feel safe from the lawlessness, but above all, it seems, people desperate to find the truth, to find a son or a friend or a husband or a cousin carted off by a ruthless regime, never to be heard from again.
The scenes you are about to see will show just how desperate people are, a story of desperation and small hopes, reported by Tim Rogers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TIM ROGERS, ITN REPORTER (voice-over): It only takes a word. And in this chaotic city, this can be the end result: thousands of people crowding into an underpass because someone believes they've heard voices from inside the walls. And with expectation building, we were cheered on to witness the event.
These men are trying to force their way into a service duct, convinced they'll find missing prisoners inside. In Baghdad, most people believe there are underground prisons that have yet to be found. And the suggestion that one has been discovered can cause mass hysteria. "There are people in there," they're shouting. "Free them. Get inside." They smashed and ripped their way in with their bare hands.
ITV News cameraman Brad Vincent (ph) was lifted up by the crowd, so eager were they to share the moment. Pushing us up and on into the service shaft, we went, our lights shining ahead, with the crowd behind us straining to see in the dark. And in another shaft, they called ahead. But the search was in vein. This time, the tunnels were empty.
(on camera): It's an indication of the desperation that many of these people feel that they've gone at this in such a frenzy. Rumors abound about underground prisons in this city, but, so far, none have been found. These people are determined not to give up.
(voice-over): But their search will go on, and so will their appeals for the world to help them uncover this country's dark secrets.
Tim Rogers, ITV News, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: segment seven, a change of pace. Now available: your own minister of information. You want one, don't you?
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It remains to be seen whether or not nation-building is one of those things Americans are just naturally good at, the way, for instance, we are just naturally good at turning almost anything into a business opportunity.
The other nations of the world may have radically different views on this country's motives and methods, but, on one point, there is no disagreement. Not only does the buck stop here; it starts here, too. And here's some evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): You remember this guy, I'm sure. If there were any smiles to be had at all during the war in Iraq, they were provided by Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf, the Iraqi information minister. At his regular briefings in Baghdad, he'd get up there before the microphones and cameras, his gaze level, his voice strong, and he'd say aloud the exact opposite of the truth.
MOHAMMED SAEED AL-SAHHAF, IRAQI INFORMATION MINISTER (through translator): We defeated them. And now they are out of the international airport. The whole airport is completely empty from the troops.
BROWN: Things that people could see with their own eyes he would announce were not so. "We Iraqis are winning," he'd say, when you could just look over his shoulder and watch them losing.
So, OK, where is there a buck to be made in the Iraqi minister of denial? Right here, it turns out. A Connecticut company is offering an action figure -- it probably should be called an inaction figure -- based on Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf. Just like the real minister of denial, the figure says things that are completely unbelievable. MECHANIZED VOICE: There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never. Our initial assessments is that they will all die. They're not even within 100 miles of Baghdad.
BROWN: Emil Bacali (ph), who is responsible for the doll, thinks Al-Sahhaf might have a bright future himself, if he has a future at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He should have his own show in America. I hope he's not dead. I hope someone hires him.
BROWN: But first, some agent, FBI or entertainment, has to find him. Those looking needn't bother with that famous deck of cards, though. Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf didn't make the cut.
MECHANIZED VOICE: No, I am not scared. And neither should you be.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll take a break.
We'll update the day's news. We'll talk in a moment with Jeffrey Toobin about the arrest of Laci Peterson's husband. And in segment seven again, we'll take a look at tomorrow morning's papers -- all that and more as NEWSNIGHT continues for hour No. 2.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Arrested>
Aired April 18, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Well, good evening again.
Proof tonight that we are truly getting back to normal, that in the midst of a huge and important story like Iraq, we also have a small, compelling one to contend with tonight as well, that being the mystery of Laci Peterson, the identification of her body and that of her unborn child, and the arrest of her husband.
We'll have a lot in the next two hours on the big story, Iraq, but we'll start the whip-off with the small one, which takes us to Modesto, California.
Rusty Dornin is there covering the Laci Peterson case. So Rusty, a headline from you tonight.
RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, it's been a very tough day here in Modesto as DNA scientists say there is no question the bodies in San Francisco Bay were that of Laci Peterson and her unborn child.
Meanwhile, police say they believe they have their man, the man they've suspected for the last four months, her husband, Scott Peterson.
BROWN: Rusty, thank you. Back to you shortly.
To Baghdad next, a day that brought thousands out in protest, protests against Saddam Hussein and the United States.
Nic Robertson there for us. So Nic, a headline from you.
NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, big anti-American demonstrations, new politicians stepping forward, getting their voices heard for the first time. And some sense of normality. Big numbers back out on the streets in Baghdad, Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you.
On to the mystery of that new video that surfaced today that is said to be Saddam Hussein.
David Ensor following that. David, a headline.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, we don't know if it's him. It looks like it probably is. And the question is, when was it recorded? Because if it was recorded recently, he might still be alive.
BROWN: David, thank you.
And the latest message from the White House, a situation involving North Korea, another huge story to deal with.
Senior White House correspondent John King with us. John, a headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, alarm this morning that North Korea was raising the stakes in the nuclear standoff just before scheduled diplomatic talks early next week. Tonight, another translation of that North Korean statement. The White House says it is far less concerned. Still a question, though, as to whether those talks will proceed as scheduled.
BROWN: John, thank you. Back with you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on a Friday edition of NEWSNIGHT, the agonizing search for the victims of Saddam Hussein's regime, Iraqis hoping beyond hope that just maybe a loved one is still alive somewhere.
And wherever he is, he may still think Iraq is winning the war, the Iraqi information minister. Now you too can enjoy some of his most beloved and bizarre statements in the comfort of your own home.
All of that ahead. Much more too in the next two hours.
We begin with a piece of reality, the big pieces of the day. Two images in Iraq stand out. One grabbed most of the headlines, the other got less play, but may, in fact, be the shape of things to come.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Both Sunni and Shi'a Muslims gathered together in Baghdad today for Friday prayers -- unusual, since both branches of Islam normally worship apart.
After that, both groups joined forces again, this time for more demonstrations, very large ones, and carefully positioned near the Western press. Protests over many things American, delays in getting the city back to normal, protests against Israel, and mostly, protests against the United States staying too long.
A tightrope to walk for American officials and for exiled leaders like Ahmed Chalabi, who was careful to say that whatever normal is, it will take some time.
AHMED CHALABI, IRAQI NATIONAL CONGRESS: I expect this stage to take a few weeks. Then the Iraqi interim authority will be formed by Iraqis, chosen by Iraqis, and will consist of Iraqis only.
BROWN: Causing the most stir, however, were these pictures from Abu Dhabi Television, purporting to show Saddam Hussein surrounded by cheering crowds in Baghdad just 10 days ago, the same day his statue fell.
There was an audio recording released as well, but no one could be certain if the man in the videotape was Saddam, and if it was, when it was recorded.
Another look today at those seven released American prisoners of war, waving from the balcony of a military hospital in Germany. They expect to be home Saturday.
Also on Friday, the capture of another top leader of the former regime. He is Samir al-Najim, someone, says Central Command, who knows a great deal about how things worked under Saddam Hussein.
MAJ. GEN. VINCENT BROOKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: He was a Ba'ath Party official, a regional command chairman for the Baghdad district, and is believed to have firsthand knowledge of the Ba'ath Party central structure.
BROWN: There was a nighttime raid by Australian commandos in the desert of western Iraq. And by daylight, you could see 51 MIG fighters that were seized, still under their camouflage netting. Not a one flew during the war.
Still no word from the north on exactly who is buried in these mass graves found outside Kirkuk. Only a handful of the 1,500 or so are marked. The rest just mounds in a large field.
In Baghdad, the Army has now taken over much of the duty from the Marines, patrolling the streets, which are generally quiet, once you get outside the arc of the demonstrations.
And at the church service for Christians in Baghdad on this Good Friday, there was time for a moment of reflection in a city that is still very much unsettled.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That is the big picture in Iraq today, and we'll spend some time now putting the smaller pieces of that picture into clearer view, beginning with the demonstrations in Baghdad, and what we've come to see as the elephant in the room.
What happens if a liberated and democratic Iraq freely and democratically decides it wants to be a fundamentalist Islamic republic?
The pictures today make a powerful statement in that direction, but clearly there's much more going on than that.
So we begin with Nic Robertson, who's in Baghdad. Nic?
ROBERTSON: Aaron, certainly those clerics that we see leading that anti-American message in the mosques today, the Friday prayer day, following on the same -- very much the same message they used to put forward under Saddam Hussein, that is, the United States coming into Iraq is really part of a Zionist plan to -- for the United States, for Israel, to dominate this particular region.
Perhaps that's why those clerics are choosing this message as they try to unify their religious leadership positions, if you will, and try and maximize and get some political capital, perhaps not thinking more broadly to find a message that will bring people behind them, other than this old message that the United States is the devil and should be downtrodden.
Certainly the picture that we're seeing emerging from the Shi'a community, who make up 60 percent of Iraq outside of Baghdad in some of the smaller communities, in their main religious towns, in Najaf and in Karbala to the south, that is the message that it is emerging that these religious leaders want to unify the religious bloc behind them, the Shi'a Muslims, 60 percent of the country, behind them, because they believe that's the way they can have their biggest political voice.
And I think to a degree, that is what we've seen in Baghdad. But it was the Shi'as and the Sunni Muslims. But it is these religious leaders trying, struggling to make -- turn themselves into political leaders, and turning to that old message that they believe can rally people behind them.
But it's yet to be seen if this is going to win them a broader consensus.
We've also seen today for the first time since returning from exile, Ahmed Chalabi, leader of Iraq's Iraqi National Congress, laying out his view for Iraq. Now, he said today that what he wants to do is rebuild civil society, because, he says, that is the way to get back to democracy.
And he outlined the steps to which, towards which Iraq will take to get to that democracy. He said an interim government would be formed. They would put forward a new constitution. A committee would look at that newly proposed constitution. If everyone liked it, then there will be a referendum across the country on the constitution. Based on that constitution, there would then be a vote for a new government.
He said that would take about two years. But what shall -- the test, if you will, that Chalabi faces, that these religious leaders don't face, is that there is huge resentment to any Iraqi who has returned from exile. Many people here see these figures as having managed to avoid the hardships of living under Saddam Hussein and his regime.
And for that reason, why they may have a very good political view of what they think should happen in Iraq, they do not have that broad base of support that perhaps these religious leaders already have somewhat of a head start on, Aaron.
BROWN: I suspect for many people in Baghdad and around the country, politics is important, but not nearly as important as getting the water running and the power on. How are those basic services going? ROBERTSON: Somewhere behind the scenes, the city's old engineers back at the power plants outside of Baghdad, along with the U.S. military here, are working hard to get them restarted. There have been helicopter flights up and down the power lines, engineers working on the plants.
We understand the problems at this time are not in the generating equipment. But when they -- when the engineers want to switch on the national grid, they say they need to have a huge surge of current to do that. And there are breakdowns in the grid system. They want to bring power in from north of Iraq to Baghdad. And bringing all this together requires a huge survey.
Nobody is clear why the power grid went down in the first place. The coalition didn't bomb it, the Iraqis say they didn't switch it off. And nobody really has a clear idea. But certainly some people believe looters have also taken a toll in all of this, stolen some of the smaller substation equipment.
So it's a work in progress. Nobody still has a date for it to be completed. But it is the most important thing at this time that people in Baghdad and around say they want, Aaron.
BROWN: Nic, thank you, Nic Robertson, who's in Baghdad on a Saturday morning there.
Here's another piece of the puzzle to put into place, the tape purportedly showing Saddam Hussein out and about just nine days ago. No question American officials hope the day comes when a Saddam sighting would be as easily ignored as an Elvis sighting. No question either, we are not there yet.
Iraq today lives in a power vacuum and a truth vacuum as well, both of which are making the tape more important than it otherwise might be.
Our national correspondent, CNN's David Ensor, joins us with more on the tape -- David.
ENSOR: Well, Aaron, clearly the people who put the tape out are hoping that it will inspire those who still want to fight for Saddam, that it will inspire fear in those who feared him in the first place, and that it will be a problem for the U.S. forces, for the coalition forces in Iraq.
And it is a problem, for the moment, at least. But the real question, from the point of view of U.S. intelligence officials is, not so much whether it's him or not. They suspect it probably is. But when was it recorded?
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR (voice-over): The question for U.S. intelligence, were these two images recorded on the same day? Was Saddam Hussein rallying supporters in one Baghdad neighborhood, even as his statue came down in another part of town on April 9? The Alazamiyah neighborhood is just over four miles from Firdos Square, where U.S. forces helped bring down the statue. Assuming this is Saddam, and if it really were recorded on April 9, then clearly he survived the attempt to kill him on the evening of April 7.
So, apparently, did his son Qusay, seen on the new tape just to the right of his father.
There were reports Saddam Hussein might have been in Alazamiyah April 9, but CNN could not find anyone in the neighborhood Friday who remembered seeing him since March. U.S. officials are skeptical too, partly because of their analysis of this other tape, released earlier. It was said to be Saddam Hussein on the streets of Baghdad on April 4.
Not true, say U.S. officials. They believe it was most likely taped in early March. They base that on certain changes in the background to buildings and the like. Note also the relatively warm clothes worn, suitable for early March. By April, it had gotten much warmer.
Administration officials from the president on down are saying what matters is not whether the dictator still lives, but that the regime's control has collapsed. But to U.S. military and intelligence officials, Saddam Hussein's fate does matter.
KEN POLLACK, SABAN CENTER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: As long as Saddam Hussein is out there, the United States is not going to be finished with this war, at least in the sense that as long as Saddam is out there, there may be loyalists who are willing to fight for him.
ENSOR: As for the audiotape also broadcast Friday by Abu Dhabi Television, U.S. intelligence will be able to say soon whether it's Saddam Hussein's voice or not.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SADDAM HUSSEIN, PRESIDENT OF IRAQ (through translator): We are confident that victory at the end will be ours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: The trouble is, whether it's his voice or not, there may be no way to assess when it was made. So the audiotape may not provide any clue as to whether Saddam Hussein is alive or dead, obviously something U.S. officials would very much like to know.
Back to you.
BROWN: Well, David, is there anything in -- forget who speaks the words for a second. Is there anything in the words themselves that indicate that Baghdad has fallen, or is about to fall, or that the war is lost, and we have to live to fight another day? Is there anything like that in the tapes? ENSOR: There's a kind of a sense that victory in the end will be ours, that obviously there have been some setbacks, is implied. But there really is nothing specific that could pin it down to, say, any time since early March.
BROWN: And what -- just one (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...
ENSOR: So it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) doesn't add much.
BROWN: I'm sorry. And was the tape- I know Abu Dhabi TV aired the tape. Was the tape widely seen in Iraq?
ENSOR: No, because of the power shortages that you were just talking about with Nic. Very few people will have seen the tape in Iraq. More may have heard on the radio some of the audiotape. But it may not have a whole lot of impact on Iraq. Of course, it's having a lot of impact worldwide.
BROWN: David, thank you. National security correspondent David Ensor tonight.
The manhunt now. Just a handful of Iraq's most wanted have been captured to date. Kurdish forces handed over one of them today. He was caught in northwest Iraq, where American forces are doing much of the hunting.
We go now to CNN's Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon. Jamie, good evening.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Good evening, Aaron.
Well, U.S. military forces are increasing their manhunt for Iraqi officials from the former regime. They are looking increasingly in northwestern Iraq, near the Syrian border. And to some extent, they're peering over the border itself.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): Pentagon sources say U.S. special operations forces are now concentrating their manhunt in northwestern Iraq, where it is believed a large number of fugitive officials may have gathered to try to get into Syria. Sources say the U.S. believes number eight on the most-wanted list, Kamal Mustafa Abdallah Sultan al-Tikriti, the former secretary of the Republican Guard and special Republican Guard, may have already made it across the border.
GEN. RICHARD MYERS, CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: We know that Syria is harboring some of the senior regime leadership, at least their families, probably some of the senior members. We know that.
MCINTYRE: Syria says it has now sealed its border and recently turned back Abu Abbas, the Palestinian who plotted the "Achille Lauro" hijacking, as well as Barzan Ibrahim Hassan al-Tikriti (ph), one of Saddam Hussein's half-brothers. Both men were subsequently captured by U.S. troops in Iraq. The U.S. believes the key to finding where weapons of mass destruction are hidden is finding the people who may have hidden them.
BROOKS: From all those that we have access to, we seek information. Some are more cooperative than others.
MCINTYRE: Of the 55 most-wanted Iraqis depicted on playing cards given to U.S. troops, so far, the U.S. only has four in hand. The most recent capture, Ba'ath Party official Samir Abdul Aziz al-Najim (ph), was handed over to coalition forces by Iraqi Kurds near Mosul.
One other leader, the man nicknamed Chemical Ali by the United States, is believed to have been killed in a U.S. air strike. But whether a strike on this Baghdad neighborhood killed Saddam Hussein and his two sons remains an open question, because U.S. forces have not been able to take the time to excavate the site.
BROOKS: We don't have any remains that have been identified at this point, but our efforts are ongoing to find all we can about that. And also to get information from others who may have had knowledge as to what happened that night during the strike.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: Now, one key Iraqi leader who was not on the top 55 most-wanted list has turned himself in to American authorities in Iraq. His name is Imab Hassan al-Ani (ph), and he is believed to be the father of Iraq's VX nerve gas program. But when he talked to American officials in Iraq, he said, like the science adviser before him, that he had no knowledge that Iraq had any weapons of mass destruction, Aaron.
BROWN: Do you know where these men are being held?
MCINTYRE: We don't know where they're being held. We believe it's in Iraq, but the U.S. military has not been specific about where they're being held.
BROWN: OK, Jamie, thank you. Our senior White House correspondent, Jamie McIntyre, tonight.
A little more international story here before we turn to domestic news. North Korea and some last-minute hitches in the runup to talks next week, at least scheduled for next week, in Beijing. Negotiations are aimed at getting the north to wind down its nuclear program. Just getting to the table was seen as a victory by the White House.
The hitch today came in a statement that seemed to say the nuclear program in North Korea is winding back up. But things are rarely that simple where these things are concerned, so we'll leave it to CNN's John King, our senior White House correspondent, to sort it all out. John, good evening.
KING: Good evening to you, Aaron.
Much less concern at the White House tonight, still, though, a great deal of confusion. This is the controversy. In an English- language statement put out by the North Korean government earlier today, North Korea said that it was in the final stages of reprocessing spent fuel rods from a nuclear facility.
And if that were true, it would mean that North Korea was very close to having enough new nuclear material to produce more nuclear weapons.
Now, the State Department says it went back to the initial Korean-language version of the statement from the North Korean government, and what it believes the North Korean government was trying to say is that there have been steps taken to get to the brink of reprocessing, but that the reprocessing, the actual reprocessing, has not begun.
That is a significant difference, of course, if North Korea is talking about developing nuclear weapons.
Still open, though, is whether this statement, even if it is not quite reprocessing, viewed as provocative by the Bush White House just three days before you are supposed to have diplomatic consultations involving the United States, China, and North Korea.
So the White House tonight says it is considering whether to go forward with those talks. Claire Buchan, a White House spokeswoman with the president in Crawford, Texas, saying this, quote, "We are consulting with other interested states, and once we have a clear set of the facts and the views of our friends and allies, we'll make a decision as to how to proceed. So we're evaluating the statement, and we're consulting with others."
Japan and South Korea chief among the others the Bush White House is consulting. We are told tonight, though, that based on the second translation, they do not believe North Korea is actually reprocessing the spent fuel. If that is the agreement, the belief into the weekend, we are told by a senior official to expect those talks to go forward early next week in Beijing.
Still don't -- no official confirmation of that just yet, Aaron.
BROWN: Ah, do just a little back and fill here. The North Koreans wanted one-on-one talks with the Americans. The Americans didn't. Beijing sort of served as a convenient negotiating center, if you will?
KING: Yes. The Chinese government, after weeks of resisting calls from the United States to step up to the plate, if you will, and put pressure on North Korea, made a decision over the last week or so that it would intervene. So it will host the talks in Beijing. The Bush White House is grateful for the support of the Chinese government in this regard.
The initial position of the Bush White House was that Japan and South Korea should be involved in any discussions. But the White House will take trilateral talks for now. We are told, though, Ambassador James Kelly, the assistant secretary of state, who leads the U.S. delegation, will insist if the talks progress to a second and a third round and so on that Japan and South Korea must be brought in.
BROWN: John, thank you. Our senior White House correspondent, John King. Have a good weekend.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT for Friday, the 18th of April, an arrest in the Laci Peterson case. The identification of the remains found as well.
And later tonight, he was a running joke in the war. Now he'll run his mouth just for you. What a doll.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back now to the case of Laci Peterson and the arrest today of her husband in California. It's a mystery that dates back to Christmas Eve. That was the day Ms. Peterson went missing, eight months pregnant with the boy she was going to name Connor. Now we know it was their remains that were found in San Francisco Bay earlier this week.
So we go back to Modesto, California, and CNN's Rusty Dornin, who's covering the story. Rusty, good evening.
DORNIN: well, Aaron, you know, for the past four months, Scott Peterson has loomed large in this investigation. But for four months, the police have been telling us he was neither ruled in nor ruled out as a suspect. But, of course, all the searches of his home, of his boat, of his truck, and also the searches of San Francisco Bay, where he claimed to have gone fishing the day his wife disappeared, all seemed to point directly to Scott.
But it wasn't until those bodies were uncovered this week in San Francisco Bay that floated to shore that the Modesto police felt they could finally make their move.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHIEF ROY WASDEN, MODESTO POLICE: Scott Peterson has been arrested. That he is in the custody of Modesto Police Department detectives. That he is being transferred here to Stanislaus County. He will be booked to the Stanislaus County Jail when he arrives. And that the jurisdiction in this case will be turned over to the district attorney, Jim Brazelton, to move this case forward.
JIM BRAZELTON, STANISLAUS COUNTY DISTRICT ATTORNEY: And we will be more than likely arraigning him on Monday, possibly Tuesday, in the superior court of Stanislaus County. He'll be charged with capital murder.
QUESTION: Does that mean you're going to seek the death penalty?
QUESTION: How many counts?
BRAZELTON: It doesn't mean we're going to seek the death penalty automatically. There are a number of things that we take into consideration when making that decision. But by charging special circumstances, that is one of the options.
QUESTION: Are you charging special circumstances?
BRAZELTON: I'm sorry, the...
QUESTION: Will there be special circumstances?
BRAZELTON: Yes, the special circumstance of double homicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DORNIN: Now, this, of course, is a terrible kind of closure for Laci Peterson's family. It's been a very tough time. They backed Scott Peterson in the very beginning. They felt he was a very loving husband to their daughter. And their trust was shattered after learning about an affair, about learning that he had sold their car and tried to sell the house.
And it was -- comes at a very difficult time that these bodies were identified as their daughter and their grandson.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIM PETERSEN, FAMILY SPOKESWOMAN: Just as Christmas Eve is a family time, Easter is also a time for families. We request that you would allow our family to have this weekend to deal with these recent developments together in private. We ask for your understanding during this difficult time and respect our need for this privacy.
Please do not call any of our family members at their homes or on their cell phones. The family will make a statement Monday afternoon at 4:00 here at the police department.
We appreciate those of you who have in the past honored these requests and will continue to do so.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
DORNIN: No, I'm going to talk about this -- the...
Now, sources close to the -- very close to the investigation have told CNN that actually on March 12 and 13 they did do a sonar search up in the San Francisco Bay. They located something they absolutely believe was the body, but very bad weather, and because it's in the shipping lanes and churned up so much mud, disturbed that area, they believe that the body may have come loose from the weights that were weighting it down into the bay.
They are planning on going back out once again with the sonar to do more searching to see if they can turn up possibly more remains of Laci Peterson.
But, again, Aaron, this is a very difficult time in this community. People were hoping and praying, I think, even up to the last minute, that somehow she might be found alive.
BROWN: OK, Rusty, thank you. We'll have more for you -- from you later in the program tonight.
Jeffrey Toobin is here with us. He's actually in Connecticut and joins us now, our legal analyst.
Jeffrey, good evening to you.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Hi, Aaron.
BROWN: Special circumstances, multiple murder, two counts of murder under California law. The fetus and unborn child is considered a human being under the law.
TOOBIN: It's an unusual law. Only a handful of states have one like this. And it's actually been sort of caught up in abortion politics. But in California, murdering a fetus can be like murdering a person. And so. because this crime is now charged as a double murder, of a fetus and of a person, that is the special circumstance that makes Scott Peterson eligible for the death penalty.
BROWN: One quick death penalty question. I want to talk about evidence. California have a full death row? Do they apply the death penalty frequently?
TOOBIN: California has a -- the one of the biggest death rows in the country, and almost no one gets executed. They execute less than one person a year. I believe there's something like 600 people on death row. At the current pace, if someone is sentenced to death this year, next year, they will clearly die of old age before they're executed.
So the death penalty in California is kind of a theoretical death penalty more than an actual death penalty.
BROWN: What do we know about evidence here?
TOOBIN: Well, the way it looks now is that it's a purely circumstantial case. There is -- there are no eyewitnesses, there's no murder weapon, there's no cause of death known. But, you know, when we talk about circumstantial evidence, it's also important to point out that the prisons are full of people convicted just on circumstantial evidence.
It seems to me the biggest piece of evidence here is that the bodies of the two victims were discovered within a couple of miles where Scott Peterson says he was on the day that Laci disappeared. And for people who are unfamiliar with California geography, Modesto, where they were in the morning, where they lived, is a long way -- I believe it's about 80 miles -- from the part of San Francisco Bay where both Scott Peterson and the bodies were.
That's a very suspicious circumstance. That's going to be tough to explain. BROWN: He said he had gone off fishing, as I recall. And that was his reason for being there. Is there other, or is there any, that you know of, that we know of, physical evidence that connects him to the case?
TOOBIN: Well, perhaps to the credit of the Modesto Police Department, they've been pretty cautious about letting any specific evidence leak out. One possible piece of evidence that's been talked about is a possible bloodstain -- could be his blood, could be Laci Peterson's blood -- in his truck.
What makes this complicated is, because they were husband and wife, there could be innocent explanations for why hair, trace blood evidence of hers, might be in his truck. But it's certainly suspicious and would add to the circumstances pointing towards his guilt.
BROWN: This is -- we're just looking at the truck here, Jeffrey, I'm not sure if you can see it or not. The idea -- the notion of trace evidence, of transfer evidence or trace evidence on a body that had been in the water as long as this one, is that out of the question?
TOOBIN: I think it's pretty close to out of the question.
One of the thins we learned in the news conference tonight is that the coroner said, at this point, he had not even been able to determine cause of death, so, whether it was drowning, whether there had been any sort of blunt trauma. And not to be too graphic, as I understand it, the head on the body of Laci Peterson is missing. So that part of the body has not even been recovered.
It's a little like the Chandra Levy case. The actual -- the body was recovered, but did not produce much evidence, much evidence to lead to any arrest. Here, the location of the body was very important, but actual evidence produced there doesn't seem to have come up with much at all.
BROWN: So, based on what you know now -- and there's a lot obviously that neither of us knows at this point -- why is this considered such a strong case against the husband?
TOOBIN: Well, I think, in cases like this, the question that all of us ask and the question that a jury certainly asks is: If not the husband, who did this? Who had a motive?
Remember, Scott Peterson also was having an extramarital affair, a possible motive there. That's the toughest obstacle here. But it is a circumstantial case and there are other possibilities. Remember, one issue that may come up -- it's awkward to talk about on a night like this -- but suicide would be a possible defense in this case, that she took her own life and wound up in the water there.
It's a strong case because it is simply implausible to most people that anyone other than her husband could have murdered her. BROWN: Jeffrey, we'll talk more about this in a half-hour or so. We'll look again at the developments of the day -- Jeff Toobin with us tonight. Nice to have you back with us, another sign of normal returning.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT for a Friday night: The new Saddam Hussein tapes, are they real and is that the real Saddam Hussein? And still searching everywhere for hidden prisons in Baghdad.
From New York and around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Ken Pollack joins us once again tonight. A lot on the table where Iraq is concerned, so we'll get straight to it. Ken is a CNN analyst, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. And he's in Washington tonight.
It's good to see you.
What's your gut tell you about that tape today? Is it nine days old and was it Saddam?
KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, I think it may be Saddam. But, as always, we have got to be really careful. It's so hard to tell with the naked eye whether it actually is.
The date, I think, is much more uncertain. I really can't tell too much about that. But I'll be honest with you, Aaron. The thing that's most interesting to me is the presence of Qusay, because if we can date that and if it is possible to date it to April 9, what that suggests is, whoever that person is with the mustache standing up, whether it's Saddam or one of his doubles, that is very clearly Qusay, Saddam's second son, the second most powerful man in Iraq. And if it is dated to April 9, it makes it clear that Qusay, at least, has survived those initial attacks.
BROWN: And, Ken, why does it -- honestly, why does it matter, given the state of play in the country right now? The Americans or the coalition, however you want to phrase it, controls the country, or at least the cities in the country. There's no question where Iraq is headed. It may be a bumpy road. So what does it matter?
POLLACK: Yes, it mostly doesn't matter, Aaron. And I think you're absolutely right. And I think that the Bush administration is generally correct in saying that what matters about Saddam Hussein, the reason he was a threat was because he controlled Iraq. He no longer controls Iraq. And if he doesn't control Iraq, he can't really threaten the Iraqi people, the region, the United States, or anyone else.
But, by the same token, you can't dismiss it entirely. There's still an issue out there, which is that, as long as Saddam Hussein is believed to be alive, we may have Saddam's loyalists who are willing to still fight. And what's more, you may still have Iraqis who have it in the back of their heads that Saddam Hussein might come back to trouble them. That might make it a bit more difficult to move forward with the reconstruction effort.
So, for all those reasons, it would be better for the U.S. to have actually got Saddam in custody or make certain that he is dead. But it isn't critical.
BROWN: I'm remembering, I think it was a week ago tonight. There was a piece of sound from a civil engineer in Iraq. He is literally standing in the shadow of an American tank and he's afraid to say anything, for fear that Saddam is not really gone.
In a society that has been ruled the way that one is, I guess you want to see the body before you're sure.
POLLACK: Yes, I think that's absolutely right, Aaron.
I use the glib line a week or two ago that the Iraqis are going to believe that Saddam is alive until they see his body hanging from a lamppost in Baghdad. I probably should have restated that to say, until they see four bodies, identical bodies, hanging from one lamppost after another, because they have been deeply traumatized by this man's regime.
And even when they do believe he's dead, it probably is going to take some time, even after that, to come to grips with that, and to start to think and live their lives in a different fashion.
BROWN: Let's move off this for a bit.
Just give me your sense of what the last week, how you view the successes of the last week for the Americans and the disappointments in the last week.
POLLACK: Well, let me start with the successes. And I think that definitely have been successes. There are humanitarian successes. The situation in the south is getting alleviated. There is water coming into the country. There is food coming into the country. U.S. forces are starting to move out and to start with deal with some of the most pressing humanitarian needs.
That said, I think that this was a week which saw the U.S. stumble in some important ways. And, in particular, again, it gets back to the expectations. The U.S. military didn't seem ready, the U.S. administration didn't seem ready for success. And, as a result, key decisions hadn't been made. You didn't see troops moving out and doing important things like guarding the Iraq museum, where all those antiquities were looted from, like guarding many Iraqi ministries.
And, in fact, the fact the U.S. forces did go and rush to guard the Iraqi Oil Ministry -- and I think they did it with the best of intentions, because U.S. forces are well aware that the Iraqis are going to need their oil wealth to help them rebuild their country. But that gets lost in the Arab and it gets lost to the Iraqis.
And what they saw was the U.S. rushing to protect Iraqi oil and not caring about Iraqi heritage. And that may have the unfortunate effect of reinforcing, in the minds of many Iraqis, their belief that the U.S. is in Iraq to colonize the place and steal its oil.
BROWN: Ken, thank you. Good to have you with us again.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I assume we'll talk next Friday, if not before.
(LAUGHTER)
POLLACK: I wouldn't know what else to do with my Friday evenings.
BROWN: Thank you. I wouldn't either. Thank you, Ken.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT still on this Friday: rumors and anguish in Iraq over missing loved ones and hidden prisons. This is an incredibly compelling story.
And later: making a toy out of the strangest spokesman since Joe Isuzu.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: No matter where you stand in the Middle East, the war in Iraq was a seismic event. We spent a good deal of time looking at the impact in the Arab world. We'll take a moment tonight to focus on Israel.
We're joined now by Alon Pinkas, Israel's consul-general here in New York.
It's good to see you.
ALON PINKAS, ISRAELI CONSUL-GENERAL: Thank you, Aaron.
BROWN: Someone said to me, well, the good news from the Israeli side is, Saddam has gone, and the bad news from the Israeli side is, Saddam has gone, that the pressure now comes on your government to move on the Palestinian question. Do you feel that at all?
PINKAS: Yes, but that's not bad news, necessarily. That, in fact, is good news, news that we welcome.
Once the Iraqi military threat is or has been eliminated, the threat on Israel has been eliminated, once Syria is isolated and under tremendous diplomatic pressure, once the entire Arab world is under such pressures in trying to cope with the new landscape of the Middle East, in fact, this new ascendancy of the U.S. in the Middle East, that's good news for Israel. That's good news peace prospects. That's good news for the entire region.
BROWN: At some point soon, we assume that the Palestinians will, in fact, form a new government, the road map will be released and a whole new chapter starts to get written. Do you see it as an historic moment or just the beginning of what may end up to be an historic moment?
PINKAS: The latter, rather than the former.
It's a beginning. It's a promising beginning. I would advise caution and patience. These are, as you called it yourself, seismic events, tectonic movements. And it is going to take time for this region to adjust to these changes. I see a beginning, a new Palestinian government, a realization, an increasing realization in the Arab world in general and the Palestinians in particular that the only way to go about normalization of life, wealth and health, political, economic, social, is to come to terms with this new reality.
And part of it is going to be accommodation with Israel.
BROWN: We've never talked about this. Talk about this for a second. One of the arguments that people made in opposition to the war in Iraq, when they look at the situation in the Middle East, is, they say, the Israelis ignore U.N. resolutions. Why does the United States allow them to do that? The Israelis have weapons of mass destruction? Why can't Syria? There's a double-standard, these people argue.
I assume you don't accept that. Tell me why.
PINKAS: Well, I question the premise.
First of all, we have complied with every U.N. Security Council resolution. In fact, if you look at the first U.N. Security Council resolution of importance, of relevance, to this, it's Resolution 181 from 1947, which mandated the division or the partition of the land into a Jewish and a Palestinian state. We said yes. This is one year before Israeli independence.
The Palestinians, and the entire Arab world, indeed, said no. We have complied with Resolutions 243 and 338, perhaps not fully, but for lack of a viable Palestinian partner. We have complied with Resolution 425 by withdrawing from Lebanon in May of 2000. We have complied with the majority of U.N. Security Council resolutions.
Having said that, Aaron, during the '60s, the '70s, and well into the '80s, the structure of the U.N., the division of the world was such that a transient majority could have decided and given it the authority of the Security Council that Earth is flat, rather than round. You had the nonaligned. You had the Soviet Union. These are automatic voting blocs. Many of these anti-Israeli resolutions passed because of the nature of the composition of the U.N.
You asked a second question about weapons of mass destruction.
BROWN: Right.
PINKAS: We have always, always said that the entire Middle East should be free of weapons of mass destruction. That has been our policy for many decades. That has been our outspoken and ostensible policy for the last decade, ever since the Oslo process began in the early to mid-'90s.
In the context of comprehensive peace, normalization, the entire region should be dealt with as one, including countries as far as Iran in the east and Libya in the west. We're not afraid to deal with the question of weapons of mass destruction.
BROWN: We will, I suspect, in the next weeks have more opportunities to talk more specifically about the road map, I hope, and the implications for both sides.
It's nice to see you. Come back and see us.
PINKAS: Any time, Aaron. Thank you for having me.
BROWN: OK, Alon Pinkas, the consul-general here in New York for the government of Israel.
We'll take a break. When we come back: searching for lost loved ones and secret jails in Iraq.
This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There is about Baghdad these days a sense of desperation. Everywhere, it seems, people are desperate to get water and power, people desperate to feel safe from the lawlessness, but above all, it seems, people desperate to find the truth, to find a son or a friend or a husband or a cousin carted off by a ruthless regime, never to be heard from again.
The scenes you are about to see will show just how desperate people are, a story of desperation and small hopes, reported by Tim Rogers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TIM ROGERS, ITN REPORTER (voice-over): It only takes a word. And in this chaotic city, this can be the end result: thousands of people crowding into an underpass because someone believes they've heard voices from inside the walls. And with expectation building, we were cheered on to witness the event.
These men are trying to force their way into a service duct, convinced they'll find missing prisoners inside. In Baghdad, most people believe there are underground prisons that have yet to be found. And the suggestion that one has been discovered can cause mass hysteria. "There are people in there," they're shouting. "Free them. Get inside." They smashed and ripped their way in with their bare hands.
ITV News cameraman Brad Vincent (ph) was lifted up by the crowd, so eager were they to share the moment. Pushing us up and on into the service shaft, we went, our lights shining ahead, with the crowd behind us straining to see in the dark. And in another shaft, they called ahead. But the search was in vein. This time, the tunnels were empty.
(on camera): It's an indication of the desperation that many of these people feel that they've gone at this in such a frenzy. Rumors abound about underground prisons in this city, but, so far, none have been found. These people are determined not to give up.
(voice-over): But their search will go on, and so will their appeals for the world to help them uncover this country's dark secrets.
Tim Rogers, ITV News, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: segment seven, a change of pace. Now available: your own minister of information. You want one, don't you?
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It remains to be seen whether or not nation-building is one of those things Americans are just naturally good at, the way, for instance, we are just naturally good at turning almost anything into a business opportunity.
The other nations of the world may have radically different views on this country's motives and methods, but, on one point, there is no disagreement. Not only does the buck stop here; it starts here, too. And here's some evidence.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): You remember this guy, I'm sure. If there were any smiles to be had at all during the war in Iraq, they were provided by Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf, the Iraqi information minister. At his regular briefings in Baghdad, he'd get up there before the microphones and cameras, his gaze level, his voice strong, and he'd say aloud the exact opposite of the truth.
MOHAMMED SAEED AL-SAHHAF, IRAQI INFORMATION MINISTER (through translator): We defeated them. And now they are out of the international airport. The whole airport is completely empty from the troops.
BROWN: Things that people could see with their own eyes he would announce were not so. "We Iraqis are winning," he'd say, when you could just look over his shoulder and watch them losing.
So, OK, where is there a buck to be made in the Iraqi minister of denial? Right here, it turns out. A Connecticut company is offering an action figure -- it probably should be called an inaction figure -- based on Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf. Just like the real minister of denial, the figure says things that are completely unbelievable. MECHANIZED VOICE: There are no American infidels in Baghdad. Never. Our initial assessments is that they will all die. They're not even within 100 miles of Baghdad.
BROWN: Emil Bacali (ph), who is responsible for the doll, thinks Al-Sahhaf might have a bright future himself, if he has a future at all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He should have his own show in America. I hope he's not dead. I hope someone hires him.
BROWN: But first, some agent, FBI or entertainment, has to find him. Those looking needn't bother with that famous deck of cards, though. Mohammed Saeed Al-Sahhaf didn't make the cut.
MECHANIZED VOICE: No, I am not scared. And neither should you be.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll take a break.
We'll update the day's news. We'll talk in a moment with Jeffrey Toobin about the arrest of Laci Peterson's husband. And in segment seven again, we'll take a look at tomorrow morning's papers -- all that and more as NEWSNIGHT continues for hour No. 2.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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