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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Iraq's Shi'ites Demand Islamic Government

Aired April 22, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again.
We often heard during the war in Iraq the old military phrase that no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. It seems you could revise that for what we are seeing now, no peace plan survives first contact with the conquered.

Looking at the thousands of Iraqi Shi'ites now free to worship and also free to protest the United States, and, above all, someday free to choose a government, which may or may not be the government the Americans hoped for, a secular democracy. It is one of the story lines of the next few years, and of tonight as well.

We begin, as always, with the whip, and the whip begins at the United Nations. A few controversies involving postwar Iraq there.

Michael Okwu on that for us. Michael, a headline from you.

MICHAEL OKWU, CNN U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, returns to the Security Council for the first time in over a month, and gets upstaged by the French, who call for an immediate suspension of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. But does that mean that the U.S. and one of its longtime allies suddenly see eye to eye again? Not by a long shot, Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you.

To Karbala next, and the latest on the pilgrimage of the Iraqi Shi'ites.

Karl Penhaul is there for us again tonight. Karl, a headline.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there, Aaron.

City of Karbala coming to life again, early morning. The pilgrimage continues. A celebration of new religious freedoms, but also a message to coalition forces -- Thanks for the help in ridding us of Saddam, now please go home, Aaron.

BROWN: Karl, thank you.

A new voice of criticism in the ongoing fight between the Departments of State and Defense.

David Ensor looking into that. David, a headline. DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that voice is former House speaker Newt Gingrich, seeking rehabilitation and policy influence. And the question is, when he criticizes Colin Powell, does he speak only for himself, or is he a stalking horse for others in the Pentagon, Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you.

And the ongoing fight in the state of Georgia, this time over the state flag and symbols of the Confederacy.

Brian Cabell on that for us. Brian, a headline.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, what do you do if you are a state with four possible state flags? That's a problem that Georgia has long been grappling with. Tonight, it tried to reach a consensus, but it ran into a bit of a snafu.

BROWN: Brian, thank you.

Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight, a fascinating class project on some enterprising journalism, and by enterprising journalist students, the hunt to unmask Deep Throat. They think they have an answer to one of the great mysteries of Watergate. We will have that in our second hour of NEWSNIGHT tonight.

Also tonight, a controversy involving a comment by a top Republican in the Senate. No, this isn't about Senator Lott, a different senator this time, Rick Santorum, Pennsylvania Republican, very different controversy. We will look at what he said and who is angry about it.

And the latest in our series of still photographers, tonight Eric Seals of "The Detroit Free Press," someone who got stuck outside Iraq as the war began, and who's been making up for lost time inside Baghdad.

All of that to come in the two hours ahead.

But we begin with the day in Iraq. The retired army general charged with rebuilding the country was greeted, literally, with flower petals on a visit to northern Iraq today. It's unclear how he'd be greeted by thousands of Shi'ite Muslims in the south, who are right now on their religious pilgrimage, where the mood seems euphoric but where the flower petals, for the United States, at least, are in short supply.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It was a spectacular sunrise over a sacred city, and hundreds and thousands watched. These are Shi'ites, their branch of Islam dominant in Iraq, and for the first time in a quarter of a century, they were allowed to pray and demonstrate as they wished. They chanted, shouted, and flailed their bodies with chains to mark the death of one of their saints, a death by martyrdom in the seventh century. In a calculated display of a lack of force, American troops were not visible.

By nightfall, the enormous crowds had not dissipated. "We thank God," said one Shi'ite leader, "for ridding us of the dictator Saddam Hussein."

Up north, retired general Jay Garner, the American chosen to be in charge of the postwar reconstruction, arrived by helicopter. He was warmly received by two rival Kurdish leaders, and welcomed, too, by residents of knew of his background in helping the Kurds after the first Gulf War.

LT. GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), OFFICE OF RECONSTRUCTION AND HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE: And what we wish is to take this type of experience and spread it through all of Iraq.

BROWN: In Baghdad, American soldiers were on patrol again, both by foot and in vehicles, safe enough, felt the U.N. weapons chief Hans Blix, to make overt suggestions about returning to Iraq.

HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: We may wish to visit sites, if we are come back with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sites where we have been before, compare them to what we have seen, we have -- And also to see people and talk to people we have seen before.

BROWN: From the United States, a polite no thank you. Things are going as well as could be expected, says the Army's commander in Baghdad.

MAJ. GEN. BUFORD BLOUNT, COMMANDING GENERAL, 3RD INFANTRY DIVISION: As a general rule, you know, I've given over a good part of the city now. I feel safe, you know, that the shops are open and the people are happy we are here. A lot of people are cheering and waving all the time. So I think it is headed in the right direction right now, and making a lot of progress.

BROWN: It was one day closer to the time when electricity will be turned on again, and today brought too a glimpse at a reputed hideaway for Saddam Hussein himself. A fairly old but clearly American taste in music, Johnny Mathis, and in toothpaste as well. The paintings are something else altogether.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the big picture of the day. We'll spend some time now looking at smaller pieces of that puzzle.

It was more than a little busy at the U.N. today, the French siding with the Americans, joining the Bush administration in a call to lift sanctions against Iraq. And the man who was in charge of finding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction before the war was sounding very much like he'd like to get back into the game.

CNN's Michael Okwu has been watching all of this, and he joins us live tonight. Michael, good evening.

OKWU: Good evening, Aaron.

It was something of a surprising move. The French ambassador, Jean-Marc de la Sabliere, coming forward and essentially saying that they would like to suspend sanctions immediately. But it became very clear, Aaron, that the French ambassador was not talking about a complete shift on the French side and siding completely with the United States, which has been calling all along for an unequivocal lifting of sanctions in Iraq.

The French making it very clear that they would still like to see U.N. inspectors on the ground, acting as the chief of verification body there for the existence of weapons of mass destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN-MARC DE LA SABLIERE, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: We know that it is not possible to lift the sanction before having a report from the inspectors satisfying the Iraqi disarmament. So what to do now? The only thing, we think, the only politically and credible thing to do, is to suspend the sanction, and this is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) nothing to do with being good or bad guys. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we think it's logical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OKWU: Now, there's nothing in writing on this. There's not a clear resolution any of kind. But it appears that what the French are talking about here is keeping a suspension in place for a specific period of time, after which the Security Council would reconvene to discuss whether or not to continue that status.

Do not look, however, for the United States to shift significantly on their position.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: The coalition has assumed responsibility for disarming of Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. Some initial work was done during the phase in which we were conducting active military operations. Now that there is a somewhat more permissive military environment, the coalition effort will be substantially increased and expanded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OKWU: Now, chief weapons inspector Hans Blix returned to the Security Council for the first time in well over a month to discuss his team's readiness to return back to Baghdad. Blix said his inspectors may be in the position to confer a certain kind of international legitimacy to the verification process that perhaps other bodies cannot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BLIX: The resolutions 4C that the U.N. international inspectors will have access to all sites in Iraq and access to people. We are not an auditing firm.

QUESTION: So without your work, is it possible to have full credibility for whatever the U.S. finds, from your perspective?

BLIX: Well, we may not be the only ones in the world who have credibility, but I do think we have credibility for being objective and independent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OKWU: Eighty-five inspectors are poised to return back into Iraq as soon as possible, as soon as it is deemed necessary. But do not look, Aaron, for that to happen anytime soon.

BROWN: Let's go back to the beginning here and this question of sanctions. This is really about oil, and the ability of the Iraqis to -- or whoever's running the oil industry there -- to sell that oil on the open market.

OKWU: Well, that's exactly right. The fact is that the oil-for- food program, Aaron, has been going on now for -- since about 1995. The French have been saying all along today, even as they've been talking about suspending some of those sanctions, that this is a bit like cutting the umbilical cord overnight.

The fact is, some 60 percent of Iraqis still depend on the oil- for-food program for most of their nutritional needs, and they'd like to see an eventual phasing-out of this.

But the fact is, Aaron, there are lots of parties that have vested interests here, including the French. The Russians have some $7-plus billion tied up in contracts. France another $3.7 billion tied up. So this is an issue that they're going to have to go back to the table and work out, Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Michael Okwu at the United Nations tonight.

We have seen some in the Pentagon's deck of most-wanted Iraqis taken out, the most recent being the Queen of Spades, the former Iraqi prime minister.

The United States is pursuing the most wanted for what they've done, but also for what they know, especially what they know about weapons of mass destruction. The pressure to find the weapons is intense, not just to preserve American security, but also to preserve American credibility.

Here's Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): So far, U.S. troops haven't found any evidence of the weapons that led the Bush administration into war with Iraq.

MAJ. GEN. VINCENT BROOKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We've not found any weaponized chemicals, biological agents, or any nuclear devices at this point.

STARR: So this man, Major General Keith Dayton (ph), is on his way to Baghdad to become the chief investigator, not for the United Nations, but for the Bush administration.

Dayton is the head of human intelligence operations for the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency, the DIA. Now he is leading the Iraq Survey Group, 1,500 intelligence analysts, weapons specialists, and linguists that are setting up shop in Baghdad.

Their job, to look not only for evidence of weapons of mass destruction, including missiles, but also links to terrorist activity, evidence of war crimes, and to follow any illicit money trails.

The job is now seen as so huge, the federal government is tapping private industry to help. Kellogg, Brown and Root and Raytheon have already been approached, Pentagon officials say, to provide technical experts. And more than 30 former U.N. weapons inspectors are also being asked to join the effort.

The U.N. is still hoping to have a role for its inspectors, but the White House is opposed.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president is looking forward, not backward, and we will reassess the framework designed to disarm the Iraqi regime, given the new facts on the ground and the fact the Iraqi regime that created the environment for the inspectors previously to go in no longer exists.

STARR: Team members will do more than just visit potential weapons sites. They will piece together reports from interrogations with recently captured regime leaders, including Saddam Hussein's former prime minister, Muhammad Hamza Zubaydi. The group will also investigate computer hard drives and documents. Cash rewards will be offered to those Iraqis who do provide useful information.

(on camera): Analysts are already looking into allegations that Iraq destroyed some weapons just before the war began. But so far, there is no proof about what happened to the weapons that the U.S. said Iraq had.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You can get a sense of the challenge facing the United States just by looking at the name of one key Shi'ite opposition group, the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. This group is glad to see Saddam Hussein gone, but wants the United States gone as well.

It was a sentiment on display among some Shi'ite Muslims making their religious pilgrimage today.

So we go back to CNN's Karl Penhaul, who is in Karbala -- Karl.

PENHAUL: Good morning, Aaron.

Yes, the city of Karbala is coming to life again. The pilgrims are waking up. Some of them have been on the street all night, others have been asleep on the sidewalk. The call for morning prayers has sounded, and as I say, the city coming to life once again.

Over the last few days, we have seen a tremendous celebration here, a celebration of newfound religious freedoms. This kind of gathering under Saddam Hussein was severely restricted. This quantity of people were not allowed to come here, they were only permitted to travel here in buses and trucks, not, as tradition demands, to come on foot.

But these religious celebrations have also combined with a political message, and the pilgrims here on the street are most definitely calling for an end to U.S. and British presence here in Iraq.

They thank the coalition for their help in ridding the country of Saddam Hussein but are now saying that their time is up, that they must go home, and they must take no further part in helping to influence or, even less, imposing a new form of government on Iraq.

Many of these pilgrims here have been carrying banners and slogans calling for the installation of some kind of Islamic rule here in Iraq, Aaron.

BROWN: How much credibility do the -- I mean, there are several Shi'ite leaders, the most radical of whom would favor some sort of Islamic government. How much credibility do they have on the ground?

PENHAUL: Although it's true that, yes, there is some vying for power, there's vying for power between some of the senior Muslim Shi'ite clerics here, overall, Shi'ite policy is determined by what these people call a hauza (ph). That's a kind of college of Islamic scholars and numbers some 2,500. And so in that sense, it's a collective decision-making process.

Who actually leads the hauza depends on the internal politics of the organization, which is not being made clear to Westerners.

But nevertheless, what goes on in the pilgrimage and what has been going on in the pilgrimage in the last few days will be a key factor in that, because the cleric that can dominate here, the cleric who can garner most mass support here on the streets, will by extension gain ascendancy in the hauza, in the religious council, and, by further extension, will gain ascendancy in the future political life of Iraq, Aaron.

BROWN: Just (UNINTELLIGIBLE), to the extent that you can tell, the people who have made the pilgrimage, do they come from -- are they middle-class Iraqis? Are they -- do they cross the spectrum of Shi'a Iraqi society? Is it possible to say?

PENHAUL: Absolutely. Of course, the spectrum, Aaron, from what I can make out, many hundreds of thousands here, there have been estimates of more than a million people here. Very difficult to tell what the real figures are here of people here. But by the way that they dress, by the way that they look, you can tell that they have come across the broad spectrum.

Yesterday I met a former nuclear scientist. By all accounts, as well, I have been talking to the common people, a plumber and some very old people as well, people in their 70s and 80s. Some have been walking for days to come here. So yes, this is a cross-section of majority Shi'ite population, Aaron.

BROWN: Karl, thank you. Karl Penhaul, who is in Karbala. It's a fascinating scene there.

We will talk more about the politics of all of this a little later in this hour with Nick Kristof of "The New York Times," who is just back from Baghdad, or from Iraq.

The war in Iraq has underscored the divide between the Departments of State and Defense. The secretary of state favored diplomacy before the war. Hawks in the Defense Department did not, and now they feel vindicated.

It's one of those fights that usually plays out through anonymous quotes and careful leaks to the press. Today it played out in very public, very direct way, perhaps because the hawk doing the criticizing was Newt Gingrich.

The story from CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): It was a broadside against Colin Powell and his State Department from a well-known conservative with ties to the Pentagon.

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: The State Department remained ineffective and incoherent...

ENSOR: There was sharp criticism on Iraq from former House speaker Newt Gingrich, a member of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Advisory Board. Powell, he said, should not be planning to reward Syria with a visit.

GINGRICH: The concept of the American secretary of state going to Damascus to meet with a terrorist-supporting, secret police- wielding dictator is ludicrous.

ENSOR: But Powell is going to Damascus, his defenders responded, because the boss told him too.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As you know, Secretary Powell will be going to visit with the Syrians. GINGRICH: The State Department invention of a quartet for Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations defies everything the United States has learned about France, Russia, and the United Nations.

ENSOR: But again, say Powell defenders, you may not like the idea of including Russia, Europe, and the U.N. in a quartet on the Middle East with the U.S., but the president does.

ROBERT OAKLEY, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: To accuse Powell of being disloyal to the president or freelancing is just totally outrageous.

ENSOR: Gingrich also said the State Department has been dragging its feet on fixing the roads in Afghanistan and should not be trusted to rebuild Iraq.

GINGRICH: As of two weeks ago, not one mile of road had been paved in Afghanistan.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Everybody knows you can't pave roads in Afghanistan. You can't put down asphalt in Afghanistan in the wintertime.

ENSOR: Is the former speaker speaking for others in the administration, perhaps for conservatives at the Pentagon, with his criticisms of Powell and his department? Not for the president, said the spokesman.

FLEISCHER: Secretary Powell is a able, able diplomat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: With Gingrich taking return fire, those who might be expected to agree with him, at the Pentagon and elsewhere in this town, took cover today.

But with the U.S. facing some tough diplomatic challenges on Iraq and other matters, watch out for some more policy skirmishes yet to come, particularly because this is a president who, by contrast, say, with President Nixon, likes to have -- likes to hear his rather strong-willed cabinet officers have a spirited debate before he makes up his mind, Aaron.

BROWN: Well, this is fascinating, in some ways, for what's not being said here. Do we presume that former speaker Gingrich was a stalking horse of some sort for the broad conservative movement in Washington?

ENSOR: He probably was on some of issues he raised, and others are the kinds of issues he's been raising for many, many years. He's been a critic of the State Department under several different secretaries of state.

But yes, on some of the issues, it would appear he is sort of out there trying out a position that others, who can't speak so boldly, probably agree with. BROWN: I mean, just taking the Israeli-Palestinian matter, which is going to move, theoretically, at least, very much to the front of the line over the next week or so, that's the plan, at least, if he's speaking for the conservatives, or the most conservative wing of the party, on that, that's a really interesting and not unimportant thing to note.

ENSOR: Right. And he is quite bluntly criticizing the idea of this quartet, and also of the road map that is supposed to be announced soon, that the Bush administration has approved for sort of forward motion between the Palestinians and Israelis. And, of course, that road map has the president's approval.

So allies of Secretary Powell are saying tonight that the former speaker is actually criticizing the president of United States.

BROWN: David, thank you. David Ensor in Washington tonight.

Politics of a different sort now. He's not exactly a household name, but in the corridors in the power and in the United States Senate, Pennsylvania Republican Rick Santorum is near the top of the power curve. He's the third-ranking Republican in the Senate leadership hierarchy.

And tonight, as CNN's Jonathan Karl reports, he's found himself where no politician wants to be, defending himself for something he said.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator Santorum sparked the controversy when he told the Associated Press, "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual gay sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery, you have the right to anything."

Gay Republicans demanded an apology.

PATRICK GUERRUIRO, LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS: If you would ask most Americans if they'd compare gay and lesbian Americans to polygamists and folks who are involved in incest and the other categories that he used, I think there's very few folks in the mainstream that would articulate those same views.

KARL: But Santorum stands by his comments, saying in a written statement he was specifically talking about the pending case before the Supreme Court on whether states can prosecute homosexuals for having consensual sex. If such laws are struck down, he said, so could laws against polygamy and incest.

He added, "I am a firm believer that all are equal under the Constitution. My comments should not be misconstrued in any way as a statement on individual lifestyles."

Santorum is under fire from Democrats and gay Republicans, but he is winning praise from some conservative groups.

GENEVIEVE WOOD, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: And I think Republican Party would do well to follow Senator Santorum if they want to see profamily voters show up on Election Day.

KARL: But Santorum's comments may complicate his party's efforts to reach out to gays.

GUERRUIRO: The president has made it clear that his vision of our Republican Party is one that is inclusive, that includes everyone in the American family. And Senator Santorum's comments are counter to the president's position and outreach to all Americans.

KARL: During the 2000 presidential campaign, George W. Bush made a point of meeting with gay Republicans, and at the Republican convention, the party gave gay Congressman Jim Kolbe a prime-time speaking slot, a move that prompted a silent protest from some of the delegates.

(on camera): The Associated Press has released more excerpts of its interview with Senator Santorum, showing that he talked about homosexuality generally, outside the context of the Supreme Court case. Senator Santorum told the Associated Press, quote, "I have no problem with homosexuality. I do have a problem with homosexual acts."

Jonathan Karl, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, reconsidering a view on Iraq. We will talk with "New York Times" columnist Nick Kristof about his thoughts now that he has returned from Iraq.

And on this Earth Day -- yes, it is Earth Day -- we will talk with a leading advocate for the cause of conservation, Robert Kennedy, Jr.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Columnists make opinions and predictions for a living. Most of the time, they are expounding on what they're right on a certain issue or why they are. Today "New York Times" columnist Nicholas Kristof became one of the admirable few to admit being wrong.

He conceded that some of the gloom and doom fears he had about waging war in Iraq were overblown. He said the hawks made some bad predictions as well, chief among them that the United States would be treated by most Iraqis as liberators.

He saw the reaction up close while reporting from the region, and Nick Kristof is back in New York and with us tonight.

It's nice to see you... NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's good to be back.

BROWN: ... shaved. I noted in your column today you said to make yourself blend in a bit, you grew a mustache.

KRISTOF: Yes. It was kind of a paltry mustache, compared to the Iraqi mustaches, I must say. But I tried.

BROWN: But it had a purpose.

KRISTOF: Yes. As an American in Iraq, you really stick out. And there is a certain level of animosity toward you. You know, one moment people are grateful and are saying, Thank you, and the next moment they're throwing rocks at you. And that mustache made me feel a little more comfortable.

BROWN: Is it an animosity, or is it a fear? In the sense that -- are they fearful of what is about to come, or are they angry about what has happened?

KRISTOF: I think that it's less anger at what has happened. I think there is a huge collection of different reasons for every family. You know, some people lost people in the war. For a lot of people, you get the sense that there's this -- you know, they want order, and they want water, and they want electricity. And they're happy that Saddam is gone, but they have a little more expectation for the way things should be.

And, you know, when you go in there, they're -- one moment they will thank you for being -- for getting rid of Saddam Hussein, and the next moment they say, Where's our electricity?

BROWN: So, we turn -- we Americans turn the electricity on and we get the water clean and pumping again and then everything's cool, right?

KRISTOF: Well, it's a race right now between that -- obviously, we will establish order. We will do these things.

Meanwhile, though, the Shiite mosques in particular are really doing a better job of it than we are and it's a lot of these mosques that are establishing local order and policing local areas and now with this huge Shiite migration to the city of Karbala, I think we're seeing kind of a Shiite rebirth that is maybe the emergence of a -- of a -- kind of a thread of welling opposition to the American presence and I think that's -- should be a concern for us.

BROWN: And this is really where I want to go tonight, because are we headed in Iraq for a kind of Iran lite government?

KRISTOF: I think it's way too early to say and I think that Iraqis themselves are deeply ambivalent about it and there's a huge variation. But I think that it is fair to say that, in 1979 in Iran, we in the West made a mistake and misjudged the strength of religious fervor, because we talked mostly to urban, educated, middle-class people, who tended to be more pro-Western.

And I think the same, to some degree, is true of Iraq. And, meanwhile, out there in the slums, in the rural areas, you have a lot of Shiite Iraqis for whom the essence of life is their Shia faith. And now that is being reborn. And an awful lot of them see an Islamic state as the expression of their ideal.

BROWN: So we've talked to this point a lot about conflicts between Sunni and Shia and Kurds and Sunni and Shia and Christians and all. But what we might end up seeing is a huge conflict between those who see a secular Iraq -- which, for all the bad things about Saddam it was a largely secular country -- and some manner of theocracy?

KRISTOF: I think that's right.

I don't think it will be as strong as in Iran, because even the Ayatollah Hakim, who is based in Tehran and has a lot of support in Iraq, even he, I think, realizes that Iran is screwed up in a lot of ways. But this sense -- basically, I would say there is a paradox between our goal to bring democracy to Iraq and sense of what an awful lot of the Iraqi population would like if they had a democracy, which is something like an Islamic state, Islamic law, and a Shiite- dominated state.

BROWN: Is there a country that you can think of that it will -- you could say, well, it might well look like Turkey or something?

KRISTOF: It's an interesting question.

I'd say that Iran is the closest, because it is a Shia state. But I don't think that people want to carry it as far as Iran. And many of the Shia would like to have women play less of a prominent role in Iraq, but they don't want to have them completely covered up, completely banned from doing anything. So I think they perceive some kind of a goal, some kind of medium in between.

BROWN: Forty-five seconds.

Weapons of mass destruction, we haven't found them yet. Did you come away with the sense that they are there, but we just have not found them there yet?

KRISTOF: I really don't know. And that is obviously the fascinating question.

But my guess is that we will find something, because we seemed to have so many -- so much intelligence about them. But unless we find a really major program of weaponized items that were actually out there in the field, I think there will be real questions about the basis of our whole invasion and we may have some explaining to do to those who died in the war, Iraqi and American.

BROWN: Nice to see you. Welcome home.

KRISTOF: Thank you. And Iraq is a great place to leave.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Even now, I imagine that's true. Thank you. It's good to have you with us, Nic Kristof of "The New York Times."

A quick programming note here: In our next hour, we will join one of the freed POWs on his journey back home.

Still ahead in this hour: a check of the latest news headlines and the story of the battle over the battle flag. What banner will fly above the Georgia Statehouse?

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: an old fight being waged again, Georgia's battle over what symbol should fly above the state Capitol.

A short break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The latest now on the fight over the Georgia state flag. It's a battle over history and symbolism. One man's icon of Southern pride is another man's reminder of slavery. The new governor in Georgia came to power this fall promising to let the people decide how prominent Confederate symbols should be on their state flag. And that fight came to a head today in the Georgia state legislature.

The story from CNN's Brian Cabell.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Georgia state flag, only about 2 years old, still flies today, despite vigorous efforts to pull it down. A new proposed flag promoted by Republican Governor Sunny Perdue and most conservatives ran into a technical problem on its way to approval by the state Senate.

(on camera): The technical problem dealt with the dimensions of the new proposed plan. As specified in the bill, it would have been 3 feet by 6 feet. That's too long, bigger than the American flag, and, frankly, just a little funny-looking.

(voice-over): So the Senate amended the flag bill and sent it back to the House, which approved it earlier in the session after a lengthy and heated debate and may not be inclined to endure much more. It's got only one more day in session, Friday. And African-American legislators promise another withering debate.

TYRONE BROOKS (D), GEORGIA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: It's going to be a long day. It's going to be a long debate, a lot of speeches. The clock could very well run out on the flag on Friday night.

CABELL: Governor Perdue first raised the flag controversy in his election campaign last year, saying voters deserved a voice on the issue. He gave the hope to Confederate heritage supporters who want to return to the old Georgia flag, which prominently displays the Confederate battle emblem.

VINCENT FORT (D), GEORGIA STATE SENATOR: It's not going to be healing. Governor Perdue has said, well, we are going to heal. No, we're not going to heal. This is going to be a pitched battle.

CABELL: The bill called for the new flag to be raised immediately, but then voted on, yes or no, by voters next March. If it was rejected, then voters would face a second referendum, selecting either a pre-1956 Georgia or the flag that flew here from 1956 through 2001, with the controversial battle emblem that most blacks vehemently oppose, all in all, a complicated process.

BILL STEPHENS (R), GEORGIA STATE SENATOR: Democracy is a messy process sometimes. But out of that comes a stronger democracy. And I think that's what's going to happen in Georgia.

CABELL: But for now, the current flag, described by some as resembling a restaurant place mat, flies at the Capitol. Its three possible successors will have to wait for at least a few more days, maybe much longer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABELL: To many observers, both inside and outside the state, this entire battle over the flag might seem ludicrous, even absurd. But you have to understand, there's a lot of symbolism behind all of these flags. And here in the South, as you well know, Aaron, symbolism counts for a lot.

BROWN: Well, even the year 1956, when that flag first flew in Georgia, is not without symbolism in the civil rights era.

CABELL: Yes. That was put into effect, that was raised because of basically defiance toward the federal government, which was pushing integration at that point. So, yes, that was highly symbolic by the state legislature some, what, 45, 47 years ago.

BROWN: Thank you; '56 was the year the Supreme Court ruled on Brown vs. the Board of Education.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: It's Earth Day. But you knew that, didn't you? You didn't?

We'll talk with environmental activist Robert Kennedy Jr. when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In the midst of all of news about the war, about disease, about budgets and sensational murder cases, a very different topic on our agenda tonight, and, according to many, no less important. If you checked your Palm Pilot or perhaps, better yet, your "Whole Earth" catalog, you will see that it is Earth Day today, April 22.

And one of the environment's leading advocates and activists is with us tonight, Robert Kennedy Jr.

Good to have you with us.

ROBERT KENNEDY JR., NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNCIL: Thanks for having me, Aaron.

BROWN: Outside of elementary school students around country, seriously, how many people do you think were aware that today was Earth Day?

KENNEDY: I think a lot of people are aware of it, yes.

BROWN: Do you?

KENNEDY: Yes.

The big question is, how many people are kind of focusing on the environment as a principal issue? And I think that not many of them do. I think -- there's a Gallup poll that came out earlier in the month -- actually about the middle of March -- that said that 60 percent of Americans believe that we should have stronger environmental regulations and laws; 7 percent believe that they should be weakened.

But we have a White House now and a Congress that is more intent on weakening, really eviscerating 30 years of environmental law. And the public doesn't know what's going on. I think most people believe that the government is taking care of the environment, that we had Earth Day, we passed these laws, and that we really don't have to pay much attention to it anymore.

BROWN: All right, let's talk about some of them. And these people who answered the polling question one way, are they, then, running out and buying an SUV the next day?

KENNEDY: Yes, but I really don't think that that's the issue, Aaron. I don't think -- I think one of the things that kind of the bad industries like to do is to blame bad environmental choices on the consumers. And I think that's a distraction.

The big problem is really what is happening on Capitol Hill on national policy choices. We should be making a policy choice in this country that says that we can't make and we can't build cars in this country unless they get 40 miles per gallon. If we raise fuel efficiency by two miles per gallon week, we eliminate 100 percent of our imports of Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil. If we raise fuel efficiency...

BROWN: For two miles?

KENNEDY: Two miles, 2.2 miles per gallon. If we raise fuel efficiency by 7.6 miles per gallon, we eliminate 100 percent of our imports from the Persian Gulf.

Think of what that would do, not only for our national security, for our balance of payments, but also for our air and water and for our economy. All of us would be richer. If I were driving a 40-mile- per-gallon car, I spend about $3,000 a year on gasoline with my 25- mile-per-gallon minivan, I would have about $1,000 in my pocket at the end of the year.

Now, people were excited when President Bush sent out a $300 check to every American taxpayer, because they said, well, that's going to help the economy. What would happen if we were all getting $1,000 every year that we are now sending to dictators and to terrorists in the Mideast? And what would it do for our national policy?

I mean, one of the problems with installing democracy in Iraq is that every Arab in the world, as you probably know, believes that the reason that we're over there is for oil.

BROWN: Yes.

KENNEDY: How much more would we be able to leverage our power if that wasn't an issue, if we weren't depending on propping up these Mideastern dictator who we shouldn't have anything to do with?

BROWN: Just on -- one more short one on gas mileage here. It doesn't sound like -- two miles a gallon doesn't sound like a whole lot. Why is that so hard to accomplish?

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Is it a political question or a psychological question?

KENNEDY: No, it isn't.

In fact, we were up to 27 miles per gallon. And over the last five years, we've dropped about five miles per gallon. During the Carter administration, we had corporate average fuel efficiency standards. He passed them in 1979 during the second oil crisis. Within six years, we had dropped fuel efficiency -- we had gained seven miles per gallon and we went from 20 to 27 miles per gallon.

That created an oil glut in this country and we almost eliminated 100 percent of Mideastern oil from the United States. That year, the automobile industry and the oil industry approached the Reagan administration and asked David Stockman to roll back the CAFE standards. He did that. We doubled imports from the Gulf and they have been going up ever since. If we had left those in place, we would not have imported one drop of Gulf oil after 1986. We would not have had a Gulf War. Think of the possibilities. Think of the World Trade Center still standing.

BROWN: We have got about a minute, a little less. Let's broaden this out a bit.

Just, as you look at the world, literally, I guess in this case, are these -- are you encouraged by the way people see environmental issues, even if they're not quite ready to act on them, or are you discouraged these days?

KENNEDY: I'm discouraged because of this administration. We have an opportunity now to shift to hydrogen fuel cells, which is we ought to be doing. We need to have a hydrogen-based economy that is within grasp. We need an Apollo project to get us there.

Instead, what Congress passed two days ago and what the president proposed is a $20 billion energy subsidy to oil, coal, and gas, the richest companies in America. It's a gift to those corporations and to Saudi Arabia. It's a terrible, terrible catastrophe for the American people.

BROWN: Nice to have you with us tonight. You'll come back and talk about...

KENNEDY: Thanks for having me here.

BROWN: Thank you -- Robert Kennedy Jr. with us.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: another in our series on war in still life. Tonight: life in Baghdad from Eric Seals of the Knight Ridder chain shooting for "The Detroit Free Press."

We'll take a look at his pictures after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you watch NEWSNIGHT regularly -- and you do, don't you? -- you know that we are big fans of still photographers. And we've been trying to bring their work in Iraq.

And tonight, again, we do, Eric Seals of the Knight Ridder chain shooting for "The Detroit Free Press." He was, to his chagrin, caught outside of Iraq for the war. But now he's made it in, covering what could be the toughest and most important battle of them all: winning the peace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERIC SEALS, "THE DETROIT FREE PRESS": Before the war, I was in Jordan. We were waiting for the Iraqi refugees to show up there everyone thought would stream from Iraq and from Baghdad into Jordan, like they did back in 1991. But the Iraqis didn't show up.

On April 9, about 130 journalists from around the world including myself and a couple of reporters, we were going to try to storm the border because we were all desperate to get into Iraq, especially two days after the Saddam statue fell and we all knew it was over.

My name is Eric Seals. I am a staff photographer at "The Detroit Free Press." And I'm currently working in Baghdad and I've been here for about a week and a half; 156 Iraqi police officers were supposed to show up to this college to report for work. But instead, 2,000 showed up because they heard about it on the radio. So the whole college was swarmed with the police officers wanting their jobs back. And this gentleman was kind of in charge of the whole operation. And one man that had his arms up yelling at him was basically an angry officer demanding his job. We came across a checkpoint and there were about maybe five or six Iraqi locals with AK-47 machine guns. And they were checking cars. It was kind of neat that the Iraqis are taking pride in the fall of the regime and wanting to restore order themselves.

We had heard rumors of an underground prison. And rumor had it that there were a bunch of Kuwaitis and one American held in this underground prison that people forgot about. So we went into this bunker, hoping to find a prison and run into these prisoners. And instead, we ran into roomfuls of weapons, from bullets to a hand grenade, land mines, a rocket-propelled grenade.

Besides weapons, there was paperwork all over the place. And as I was walking along, people were showing me old Kuwaiti and Iraqi passports with pictures. I felt like an explorer, an adventurer going into unknown places, like the weapons depot. Going into neighborhoods where they were shooting, and I had to wear my vest and my helmet. And you just never know what is around the corner here.

In Saddam's palace compound, he had two garages full of collectible, classic, luxury cars. It was amazing walking in and seeing all these classic cars that were dusty from the U.S. bombing on Saddam's palace. There was a 1935 Packard. And the tanks were ordered to run these things over, because some of Saddam's people put these cars in the middle of the road to block the tanks' forward progress.

I love being a photojournalist. And I think I have one of the greatest jobs in the world, to tell stories with pictures and to try to have an impact on people's lives with my pictures and tell people what's going on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Eric Seals with "The Detroit Free Press" and the Knight Ridder chain, which ends hour No. 1. But as Ernie Banks once said, let's play two.

And so, in the second hour of NEWSNIGHT, we will look extensively at the SARS situation, from China to Canada. Then we'll talk with an expert about whether we are worrying too much these days about SARS.

And later, back to the Watergate scandal and the claim by a college professor and his journalism students that they know the identity of Deep Throat -- that and more in the next hour.

First a break, then a check of the latest headlines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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Aired April 22, 2003 - 22:00   ET
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AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again.
We often heard during the war in Iraq the old military phrase that no battle plan survives first contact with the enemy. It seems you could revise that for what we are seeing now, no peace plan survives first contact with the conquered.

Looking at the thousands of Iraqi Shi'ites now free to worship and also free to protest the United States, and, above all, someday free to choose a government, which may or may not be the government the Americans hoped for, a secular democracy. It is one of the story lines of the next few years, and of tonight as well.

We begin, as always, with the whip, and the whip begins at the United Nations. A few controversies involving postwar Iraq there.

Michael Okwu on that for us. Michael, a headline from you.

MICHAEL OKWU, CNN U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the chief weapons inspector, Hans Blix, returns to the Security Council for the first time in over a month, and gets upstaged by the French, who call for an immediate suspension of U.N. sanctions on Iraq. But does that mean that the U.S. and one of its longtime allies suddenly see eye to eye again? Not by a long shot, Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you.

To Karbala next, and the latest on the pilgrimage of the Iraqi Shi'ites.

Karl Penhaul is there for us again tonight. Karl, a headline.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there, Aaron.

City of Karbala coming to life again, early morning. The pilgrimage continues. A celebration of new religious freedoms, but also a message to coalition forces -- Thanks for the help in ridding us of Saddam, now please go home, Aaron.

BROWN: Karl, thank you.

A new voice of criticism in the ongoing fight between the Departments of State and Defense.

David Ensor looking into that. David, a headline. DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that voice is former House speaker Newt Gingrich, seeking rehabilitation and policy influence. And the question is, when he criticizes Colin Powell, does he speak only for himself, or is he a stalking horse for others in the Pentagon, Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you.

And the ongoing fight in the state of Georgia, this time over the state flag and symbols of the Confederacy.

Brian Cabell on that for us. Brian, a headline.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, what do you do if you are a state with four possible state flags? That's a problem that Georgia has long been grappling with. Tonight, it tried to reach a consensus, but it ran into a bit of a snafu.

BROWN: Brian, thank you.

Back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight, a fascinating class project on some enterprising journalism, and by enterprising journalist students, the hunt to unmask Deep Throat. They think they have an answer to one of the great mysteries of Watergate. We will have that in our second hour of NEWSNIGHT tonight.

Also tonight, a controversy involving a comment by a top Republican in the Senate. No, this isn't about Senator Lott, a different senator this time, Rick Santorum, Pennsylvania Republican, very different controversy. We will look at what he said and who is angry about it.

And the latest in our series of still photographers, tonight Eric Seals of "The Detroit Free Press," someone who got stuck outside Iraq as the war began, and who's been making up for lost time inside Baghdad.

All of that to come in the two hours ahead.

But we begin with the day in Iraq. The retired army general charged with rebuilding the country was greeted, literally, with flower petals on a visit to northern Iraq today. It's unclear how he'd be greeted by thousands of Shi'ite Muslims in the south, who are right now on their religious pilgrimage, where the mood seems euphoric but where the flower petals, for the United States, at least, are in short supply.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It was a spectacular sunrise over a sacred city, and hundreds and thousands watched. These are Shi'ites, their branch of Islam dominant in Iraq, and for the first time in a quarter of a century, they were allowed to pray and demonstrate as they wished. They chanted, shouted, and flailed their bodies with chains to mark the death of one of their saints, a death by martyrdom in the seventh century. In a calculated display of a lack of force, American troops were not visible.

By nightfall, the enormous crowds had not dissipated. "We thank God," said one Shi'ite leader, "for ridding us of the dictator Saddam Hussein."

Up north, retired general Jay Garner, the American chosen to be in charge of the postwar reconstruction, arrived by helicopter. He was warmly received by two rival Kurdish leaders, and welcomed, too, by residents of knew of his background in helping the Kurds after the first Gulf War.

LT. GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), OFFICE OF RECONSTRUCTION AND HUMANITARIAN ASSISTANCE: And what we wish is to take this type of experience and spread it through all of Iraq.

BROWN: In Baghdad, American soldiers were on patrol again, both by foot and in vehicles, safe enough, felt the U.N. weapons chief Hans Blix, to make overt suggestions about returning to Iraq.

HANS BLIX, CHIEF U.N. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: We may wish to visit sites, if we are come back with (UNINTELLIGIBLE) sites where we have been before, compare them to what we have seen, we have -- And also to see people and talk to people we have seen before.

BROWN: From the United States, a polite no thank you. Things are going as well as could be expected, says the Army's commander in Baghdad.

MAJ. GEN. BUFORD BLOUNT, COMMANDING GENERAL, 3RD INFANTRY DIVISION: As a general rule, you know, I've given over a good part of the city now. I feel safe, you know, that the shops are open and the people are happy we are here. A lot of people are cheering and waving all the time. So I think it is headed in the right direction right now, and making a lot of progress.

BROWN: It was one day closer to the time when electricity will be turned on again, and today brought too a glimpse at a reputed hideaway for Saddam Hussein himself. A fairly old but clearly American taste in music, Johnny Mathis, and in toothpaste as well. The paintings are something else altogether.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the big picture of the day. We'll spend some time now looking at smaller pieces of that puzzle.

It was more than a little busy at the U.N. today, the French siding with the Americans, joining the Bush administration in a call to lift sanctions against Iraq. And the man who was in charge of finding Iraqi weapons of mass destruction before the war was sounding very much like he'd like to get back into the game.

CNN's Michael Okwu has been watching all of this, and he joins us live tonight. Michael, good evening.

OKWU: Good evening, Aaron.

It was something of a surprising move. The French ambassador, Jean-Marc de la Sabliere, coming forward and essentially saying that they would like to suspend sanctions immediately. But it became very clear, Aaron, that the French ambassador was not talking about a complete shift on the French side and siding completely with the United States, which has been calling all along for an unequivocal lifting of sanctions in Iraq.

The French making it very clear that they would still like to see U.N. inspectors on the ground, acting as the chief of verification body there for the existence of weapons of mass destruction.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN-MARC DE LA SABLIERE, FRENCH AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: We know that it is not possible to lift the sanction before having a report from the inspectors satisfying the Iraqi disarmament. So what to do now? The only thing, we think, the only politically and credible thing to do, is to suspend the sanction, and this is (UNINTELLIGIBLE) nothing to do with being good or bad guys. (UNINTELLIGIBLE) we think it's logical.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OKWU: Now, there's nothing in writing on this. There's not a clear resolution any of kind. But it appears that what the French are talking about here is keeping a suspension in place for a specific period of time, after which the Security Council would reconvene to discuss whether or not to continue that status.

Do not look, however, for the United States to shift significantly on their position.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN NEGROPONTE, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS: The coalition has assumed responsibility for disarming of Iraq of its weapons of mass destruction. Some initial work was done during the phase in which we were conducting active military operations. Now that there is a somewhat more permissive military environment, the coalition effort will be substantially increased and expanded.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OKWU: Now, chief weapons inspector Hans Blix returned to the Security Council for the first time in well over a month to discuss his team's readiness to return back to Baghdad. Blix said his inspectors may be in the position to confer a certain kind of international legitimacy to the verification process that perhaps other bodies cannot.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BLIX: The resolutions 4C that the U.N. international inspectors will have access to all sites in Iraq and access to people. We are not an auditing firm.

QUESTION: So without your work, is it possible to have full credibility for whatever the U.S. finds, from your perspective?

BLIX: Well, we may not be the only ones in the world who have credibility, but I do think we have credibility for being objective and independent.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

OKWU: Eighty-five inspectors are poised to return back into Iraq as soon as possible, as soon as it is deemed necessary. But do not look, Aaron, for that to happen anytime soon.

BROWN: Let's go back to the beginning here and this question of sanctions. This is really about oil, and the ability of the Iraqis to -- or whoever's running the oil industry there -- to sell that oil on the open market.

OKWU: Well, that's exactly right. The fact is that the oil-for- food program, Aaron, has been going on now for -- since about 1995. The French have been saying all along today, even as they've been talking about suspending some of those sanctions, that this is a bit like cutting the umbilical cord overnight.

The fact is, some 60 percent of Iraqis still depend on the oil- for-food program for most of their nutritional needs, and they'd like to see an eventual phasing-out of this.

But the fact is, Aaron, there are lots of parties that have vested interests here, including the French. The Russians have some $7-plus billion tied up in contracts. France another $3.7 billion tied up. So this is an issue that they're going to have to go back to the table and work out, Aaron.

BROWN: Michael, thank you. Michael Okwu at the United Nations tonight.

We have seen some in the Pentagon's deck of most-wanted Iraqis taken out, the most recent being the Queen of Spades, the former Iraqi prime minister.

The United States is pursuing the most wanted for what they've done, but also for what they know, especially what they know about weapons of mass destruction. The pressure to find the weapons is intense, not just to preserve American security, but also to preserve American credibility.

Here's Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): So far, U.S. troops haven't found any evidence of the weapons that led the Bush administration into war with Iraq.

MAJ. GEN. VINCENT BROOKS, U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: We've not found any weaponized chemicals, biological agents, or any nuclear devices at this point.

STARR: So this man, Major General Keith Dayton (ph), is on his way to Baghdad to become the chief investigator, not for the United Nations, but for the Bush administration.

Dayton is the head of human intelligence operations for the Pentagon's Defense Intelligence Agency, the DIA. Now he is leading the Iraq Survey Group, 1,500 intelligence analysts, weapons specialists, and linguists that are setting up shop in Baghdad.

Their job, to look not only for evidence of weapons of mass destruction, including missiles, but also links to terrorist activity, evidence of war crimes, and to follow any illicit money trails.

The job is now seen as so huge, the federal government is tapping private industry to help. Kellogg, Brown and Root and Raytheon have already been approached, Pentagon officials say, to provide technical experts. And more than 30 former U.N. weapons inspectors are also being asked to join the effort.

The U.N. is still hoping to have a role for its inspectors, but the White House is opposed.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president is looking forward, not backward, and we will reassess the framework designed to disarm the Iraqi regime, given the new facts on the ground and the fact the Iraqi regime that created the environment for the inspectors previously to go in no longer exists.

STARR: Team members will do more than just visit potential weapons sites. They will piece together reports from interrogations with recently captured regime leaders, including Saddam Hussein's former prime minister, Muhammad Hamza Zubaydi. The group will also investigate computer hard drives and documents. Cash rewards will be offered to those Iraqis who do provide useful information.

(on camera): Analysts are already looking into allegations that Iraq destroyed some weapons just before the war began. But so far, there is no proof about what happened to the weapons that the U.S. said Iraq had.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You can get a sense of the challenge facing the United States just by looking at the name of one key Shi'ite opposition group, the Supreme Council for Islamic Revolution in Iraq. This group is glad to see Saddam Hussein gone, but wants the United States gone as well.

It was a sentiment on display among some Shi'ite Muslims making their religious pilgrimage today.

So we go back to CNN's Karl Penhaul, who is in Karbala -- Karl.

PENHAUL: Good morning, Aaron.

Yes, the city of Karbala is coming to life again. The pilgrims are waking up. Some of them have been on the street all night, others have been asleep on the sidewalk. The call for morning prayers has sounded, and as I say, the city coming to life once again.

Over the last few days, we have seen a tremendous celebration here, a celebration of newfound religious freedoms. This kind of gathering under Saddam Hussein was severely restricted. This quantity of people were not allowed to come here, they were only permitted to travel here in buses and trucks, not, as tradition demands, to come on foot.

But these religious celebrations have also combined with a political message, and the pilgrims here on the street are most definitely calling for an end to U.S. and British presence here in Iraq.

They thank the coalition for their help in ridding the country of Saddam Hussein but are now saying that their time is up, that they must go home, and they must take no further part in helping to influence or, even less, imposing a new form of government on Iraq.

Many of these pilgrims here have been carrying banners and slogans calling for the installation of some kind of Islamic rule here in Iraq, Aaron.

BROWN: How much credibility do the -- I mean, there are several Shi'ite leaders, the most radical of whom would favor some sort of Islamic government. How much credibility do they have on the ground?

PENHAUL: Although it's true that, yes, there is some vying for power, there's vying for power between some of the senior Muslim Shi'ite clerics here, overall, Shi'ite policy is determined by what these people call a hauza (ph). That's a kind of college of Islamic scholars and numbers some 2,500. And so in that sense, it's a collective decision-making process.

Who actually leads the hauza depends on the internal politics of the organization, which is not being made clear to Westerners.

But nevertheless, what goes on in the pilgrimage and what has been going on in the pilgrimage in the last few days will be a key factor in that, because the cleric that can dominate here, the cleric who can garner most mass support here on the streets, will by extension gain ascendancy in the hauza, in the religious council, and, by further extension, will gain ascendancy in the future political life of Iraq, Aaron.

BROWN: Just (UNINTELLIGIBLE), to the extent that you can tell, the people who have made the pilgrimage, do they come from -- are they middle-class Iraqis? Are they -- do they cross the spectrum of Shi'a Iraqi society? Is it possible to say?

PENHAUL: Absolutely. Of course, the spectrum, Aaron, from what I can make out, many hundreds of thousands here, there have been estimates of more than a million people here. Very difficult to tell what the real figures are here of people here. But by the way that they dress, by the way that they look, you can tell that they have come across the broad spectrum.

Yesterday I met a former nuclear scientist. By all accounts, as well, I have been talking to the common people, a plumber and some very old people as well, people in their 70s and 80s. Some have been walking for days to come here. So yes, this is a cross-section of majority Shi'ite population, Aaron.

BROWN: Karl, thank you. Karl Penhaul, who is in Karbala. It's a fascinating scene there.

We will talk more about the politics of all of this a little later in this hour with Nick Kristof of "The New York Times," who is just back from Baghdad, or from Iraq.

The war in Iraq has underscored the divide between the Departments of State and Defense. The secretary of state favored diplomacy before the war. Hawks in the Defense Department did not, and now they feel vindicated.

It's one of those fights that usually plays out through anonymous quotes and careful leaks to the press. Today it played out in very public, very direct way, perhaps because the hawk doing the criticizing was Newt Gingrich.

The story from CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): It was a broadside against Colin Powell and his State Department from a well-known conservative with ties to the Pentagon.

NEWT GINGRICH, FORMER HOUSE SPEAKER: The State Department remained ineffective and incoherent...

ENSOR: There was sharp criticism on Iraq from former House speaker Newt Gingrich, a member of the Pentagon's Defense Policy Advisory Board. Powell, he said, should not be planning to reward Syria with a visit.

GINGRICH: The concept of the American secretary of state going to Damascus to meet with a terrorist-supporting, secret police- wielding dictator is ludicrous.

ENSOR: But Powell is going to Damascus, his defenders responded, because the boss told him too.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: As you know, Secretary Powell will be going to visit with the Syrians. GINGRICH: The State Department invention of a quartet for Israeli-Palestinian peace negotiations defies everything the United States has learned about France, Russia, and the United Nations.

ENSOR: But again, say Powell defenders, you may not like the idea of including Russia, Europe, and the U.N. in a quartet on the Middle East with the U.S., but the president does.

ROBERT OAKLEY, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: To accuse Powell of being disloyal to the president or freelancing is just totally outrageous.

ENSOR: Gingrich also said the State Department has been dragging its feet on fixing the roads in Afghanistan and should not be trusted to rebuild Iraq.

GINGRICH: As of two weeks ago, not one mile of road had been paved in Afghanistan.

RICHARD BOUCHER, STATE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: Everybody knows you can't pave roads in Afghanistan. You can't put down asphalt in Afghanistan in the wintertime.

ENSOR: Is the former speaker speaking for others in the administration, perhaps for conservatives at the Pentagon, with his criticisms of Powell and his department? Not for the president, said the spokesman.

FLEISCHER: Secretary Powell is a able, able diplomat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: With Gingrich taking return fire, those who might be expected to agree with him, at the Pentagon and elsewhere in this town, took cover today.

But with the U.S. facing some tough diplomatic challenges on Iraq and other matters, watch out for some more policy skirmishes yet to come, particularly because this is a president who, by contrast, say, with President Nixon, likes to have -- likes to hear his rather strong-willed cabinet officers have a spirited debate before he makes up his mind, Aaron.

BROWN: Well, this is fascinating, in some ways, for what's not being said here. Do we presume that former speaker Gingrich was a stalking horse of some sort for the broad conservative movement in Washington?

ENSOR: He probably was on some of issues he raised, and others are the kinds of issues he's been raising for many, many years. He's been a critic of the State Department under several different secretaries of state.

But yes, on some of the issues, it would appear he is sort of out there trying out a position that others, who can't speak so boldly, probably agree with. BROWN: I mean, just taking the Israeli-Palestinian matter, which is going to move, theoretically, at least, very much to the front of the line over the next week or so, that's the plan, at least, if he's speaking for the conservatives, or the most conservative wing of the party, on that, that's a really interesting and not unimportant thing to note.

ENSOR: Right. And he is quite bluntly criticizing the idea of this quartet, and also of the road map that is supposed to be announced soon, that the Bush administration has approved for sort of forward motion between the Palestinians and Israelis. And, of course, that road map has the president's approval.

So allies of Secretary Powell are saying tonight that the former speaker is actually criticizing the president of United States.

BROWN: David, thank you. David Ensor in Washington tonight.

Politics of a different sort now. He's not exactly a household name, but in the corridors in the power and in the United States Senate, Pennsylvania Republican Rick Santorum is near the top of the power curve. He's the third-ranking Republican in the Senate leadership hierarchy.

And tonight, as CNN's Jonathan Karl reports, he's found himself where no politician wants to be, defending himself for something he said.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Senator Santorum sparked the controversy when he told the Associated Press, "If the Supreme Court says that you have the right to consensual gay sex within your home, then you have the right to bigamy, you have the right to polygamy, you have the right to incest, you have the right to adultery, you have the right to anything."

Gay Republicans demanded an apology.

PATRICK GUERRUIRO, LOG CABIN REPUBLICANS: If you would ask most Americans if they'd compare gay and lesbian Americans to polygamists and folks who are involved in incest and the other categories that he used, I think there's very few folks in the mainstream that would articulate those same views.

KARL: But Santorum stands by his comments, saying in a written statement he was specifically talking about the pending case before the Supreme Court on whether states can prosecute homosexuals for having consensual sex. If such laws are struck down, he said, so could laws against polygamy and incest.

He added, "I am a firm believer that all are equal under the Constitution. My comments should not be misconstrued in any way as a statement on individual lifestyles."

Santorum is under fire from Democrats and gay Republicans, but he is winning praise from some conservative groups.

GENEVIEVE WOOD, FAMILY RESEARCH COUNCIL: And I think Republican Party would do well to follow Senator Santorum if they want to see profamily voters show up on Election Day.

KARL: But Santorum's comments may complicate his party's efforts to reach out to gays.

GUERRUIRO: The president has made it clear that his vision of our Republican Party is one that is inclusive, that includes everyone in the American family. And Senator Santorum's comments are counter to the president's position and outreach to all Americans.

KARL: During the 2000 presidential campaign, George W. Bush made a point of meeting with gay Republicans, and at the Republican convention, the party gave gay Congressman Jim Kolbe a prime-time speaking slot, a move that prompted a silent protest from some of the delegates.

(on camera): The Associated Press has released more excerpts of its interview with Senator Santorum, showing that he talked about homosexuality generally, outside the context of the Supreme Court case. Senator Santorum told the Associated Press, quote, "I have no problem with homosexuality. I do have a problem with homosexual acts."

Jonathan Karl, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, reconsidering a view on Iraq. We will talk with "New York Times" columnist Nick Kristof about his thoughts now that he has returned from Iraq.

And on this Earth Day -- yes, it is Earth Day -- we will talk with a leading advocate for the cause of conservation, Robert Kennedy, Jr.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Columnists make opinions and predictions for a living. Most of the time, they are expounding on what they're right on a certain issue or why they are. Today "New York Times" columnist Nicholas Kristof became one of the admirable few to admit being wrong.

He conceded that some of the gloom and doom fears he had about waging war in Iraq were overblown. He said the hawks made some bad predictions as well, chief among them that the United States would be treated by most Iraqis as liberators.

He saw the reaction up close while reporting from the region, and Nick Kristof is back in New York and with us tonight.

It's nice to see you... NICHOLAS KRISTOF, COLUMNIST, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's good to be back.

BROWN: ... shaved. I noted in your column today you said to make yourself blend in a bit, you grew a mustache.

KRISTOF: Yes. It was kind of a paltry mustache, compared to the Iraqi mustaches, I must say. But I tried.

BROWN: But it had a purpose.

KRISTOF: Yes. As an American in Iraq, you really stick out. And there is a certain level of animosity toward you. You know, one moment people are grateful and are saying, Thank you, and the next moment they're throwing rocks at you. And that mustache made me feel a little more comfortable.

BROWN: Is it an animosity, or is it a fear? In the sense that -- are they fearful of what is about to come, or are they angry about what has happened?

KRISTOF: I think that it's less anger at what has happened. I think there is a huge collection of different reasons for every family. You know, some people lost people in the war. For a lot of people, you get the sense that there's this -- you know, they want order, and they want water, and they want electricity. And they're happy that Saddam is gone, but they have a little more expectation for the way things should be.

And, you know, when you go in there, they're -- one moment they will thank you for being -- for getting rid of Saddam Hussein, and the next moment they say, Where's our electricity?

BROWN: So, we turn -- we Americans turn the electricity on and we get the water clean and pumping again and then everything's cool, right?

KRISTOF: Well, it's a race right now between that -- obviously, we will establish order. We will do these things.

Meanwhile, though, the Shiite mosques in particular are really doing a better job of it than we are and it's a lot of these mosques that are establishing local order and policing local areas and now with this huge Shiite migration to the city of Karbala, I think we're seeing kind of a Shiite rebirth that is maybe the emergence of a -- of a -- kind of a thread of welling opposition to the American presence and I think that's -- should be a concern for us.

BROWN: And this is really where I want to go tonight, because are we headed in Iraq for a kind of Iran lite government?

KRISTOF: I think it's way too early to say and I think that Iraqis themselves are deeply ambivalent about it and there's a huge variation. But I think that it is fair to say that, in 1979 in Iran, we in the West made a mistake and misjudged the strength of religious fervor, because we talked mostly to urban, educated, middle-class people, who tended to be more pro-Western.

And I think the same, to some degree, is true of Iraq. And, meanwhile, out there in the slums, in the rural areas, you have a lot of Shiite Iraqis for whom the essence of life is their Shia faith. And now that is being reborn. And an awful lot of them see an Islamic state as the expression of their ideal.

BROWN: So we've talked to this point a lot about conflicts between Sunni and Shia and Kurds and Sunni and Shia and Christians and all. But what we might end up seeing is a huge conflict between those who see a secular Iraq -- which, for all the bad things about Saddam it was a largely secular country -- and some manner of theocracy?

KRISTOF: I think that's right.

I don't think it will be as strong as in Iran, because even the Ayatollah Hakim, who is based in Tehran and has a lot of support in Iraq, even he, I think, realizes that Iran is screwed up in a lot of ways. But this sense -- basically, I would say there is a paradox between our goal to bring democracy to Iraq and sense of what an awful lot of the Iraqi population would like if they had a democracy, which is something like an Islamic state, Islamic law, and a Shiite- dominated state.

BROWN: Is there a country that you can think of that it will -- you could say, well, it might well look like Turkey or something?

KRISTOF: It's an interesting question.

I'd say that Iran is the closest, because it is a Shia state. But I don't think that people want to carry it as far as Iran. And many of the Shia would like to have women play less of a prominent role in Iraq, but they don't want to have them completely covered up, completely banned from doing anything. So I think they perceive some kind of a goal, some kind of medium in between.

BROWN: Forty-five seconds.

Weapons of mass destruction, we haven't found them yet. Did you come away with the sense that they are there, but we just have not found them there yet?

KRISTOF: I really don't know. And that is obviously the fascinating question.

But my guess is that we will find something, because we seemed to have so many -- so much intelligence about them. But unless we find a really major program of weaponized items that were actually out there in the field, I think there will be real questions about the basis of our whole invasion and we may have some explaining to do to those who died in the war, Iraqi and American.

BROWN: Nice to see you. Welcome home.

KRISTOF: Thank you. And Iraq is a great place to leave.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Even now, I imagine that's true. Thank you. It's good to have you with us, Nic Kristof of "The New York Times."

A quick programming note here: In our next hour, we will join one of the freed POWs on his journey back home.

Still ahead in this hour: a check of the latest news headlines and the story of the battle over the battle flag. What banner will fly above the Georgia Statehouse?

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: an old fight being waged again, Georgia's battle over what symbol should fly above the state Capitol.

A short break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The latest now on the fight over the Georgia state flag. It's a battle over history and symbolism. One man's icon of Southern pride is another man's reminder of slavery. The new governor in Georgia came to power this fall promising to let the people decide how prominent Confederate symbols should be on their state flag. And that fight came to a head today in the Georgia state legislature.

The story from CNN's Brian Cabell.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The Georgia state flag, only about 2 years old, still flies today, despite vigorous efforts to pull it down. A new proposed flag promoted by Republican Governor Sunny Perdue and most conservatives ran into a technical problem on its way to approval by the state Senate.

(on camera): The technical problem dealt with the dimensions of the new proposed plan. As specified in the bill, it would have been 3 feet by 6 feet. That's too long, bigger than the American flag, and, frankly, just a little funny-looking.

(voice-over): So the Senate amended the flag bill and sent it back to the House, which approved it earlier in the session after a lengthy and heated debate and may not be inclined to endure much more. It's got only one more day in session, Friday. And African-American legislators promise another withering debate.

TYRONE BROOKS (D), GEORGIA STATE REPRESENTATIVE: It's going to be a long day. It's going to be a long debate, a lot of speeches. The clock could very well run out on the flag on Friday night.

CABELL: Governor Perdue first raised the flag controversy in his election campaign last year, saying voters deserved a voice on the issue. He gave the hope to Confederate heritage supporters who want to return to the old Georgia flag, which prominently displays the Confederate battle emblem.

VINCENT FORT (D), GEORGIA STATE SENATOR: It's not going to be healing. Governor Perdue has said, well, we are going to heal. No, we're not going to heal. This is going to be a pitched battle.

CABELL: The bill called for the new flag to be raised immediately, but then voted on, yes or no, by voters next March. If it was rejected, then voters would face a second referendum, selecting either a pre-1956 Georgia or the flag that flew here from 1956 through 2001, with the controversial battle emblem that most blacks vehemently oppose, all in all, a complicated process.

BILL STEPHENS (R), GEORGIA STATE SENATOR: Democracy is a messy process sometimes. But out of that comes a stronger democracy. And I think that's what's going to happen in Georgia.

CABELL: But for now, the current flag, described by some as resembling a restaurant place mat, flies at the Capitol. Its three possible successors will have to wait for at least a few more days, maybe much longer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABELL: To many observers, both inside and outside the state, this entire battle over the flag might seem ludicrous, even absurd. But you have to understand, there's a lot of symbolism behind all of these flags. And here in the South, as you well know, Aaron, symbolism counts for a lot.

BROWN: Well, even the year 1956, when that flag first flew in Georgia, is not without symbolism in the civil rights era.

CABELL: Yes. That was put into effect, that was raised because of basically defiance toward the federal government, which was pushing integration at that point. So, yes, that was highly symbolic by the state legislature some, what, 45, 47 years ago.

BROWN: Thank you; '56 was the year the Supreme Court ruled on Brown vs. the Board of Education.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: It's Earth Day. But you knew that, didn't you? You didn't?

We'll talk with environmental activist Robert Kennedy Jr. when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In the midst of all of news about the war, about disease, about budgets and sensational murder cases, a very different topic on our agenda tonight, and, according to many, no less important. If you checked your Palm Pilot or perhaps, better yet, your "Whole Earth" catalog, you will see that it is Earth Day today, April 22.

And one of the environment's leading advocates and activists is with us tonight, Robert Kennedy Jr.

Good to have you with us.

ROBERT KENNEDY JR., NATURAL RESOURCES DEFENSE COUNCIL: Thanks for having me, Aaron.

BROWN: Outside of elementary school students around country, seriously, how many people do you think were aware that today was Earth Day?

KENNEDY: I think a lot of people are aware of it, yes.

BROWN: Do you?

KENNEDY: Yes.

The big question is, how many people are kind of focusing on the environment as a principal issue? And I think that not many of them do. I think -- there's a Gallup poll that came out earlier in the month -- actually about the middle of March -- that said that 60 percent of Americans believe that we should have stronger environmental regulations and laws; 7 percent believe that they should be weakened.

But we have a White House now and a Congress that is more intent on weakening, really eviscerating 30 years of environmental law. And the public doesn't know what's going on. I think most people believe that the government is taking care of the environment, that we had Earth Day, we passed these laws, and that we really don't have to pay much attention to it anymore.

BROWN: All right, let's talk about some of them. And these people who answered the polling question one way, are they, then, running out and buying an SUV the next day?

KENNEDY: Yes, but I really don't think that that's the issue, Aaron. I don't think -- I think one of the things that kind of the bad industries like to do is to blame bad environmental choices on the consumers. And I think that's a distraction.

The big problem is really what is happening on Capitol Hill on national policy choices. We should be making a policy choice in this country that says that we can't make and we can't build cars in this country unless they get 40 miles per gallon. If we raise fuel efficiency by two miles per gallon week, we eliminate 100 percent of our imports of Iraqi and Kuwaiti oil. If we raise fuel efficiency...

BROWN: For two miles?

KENNEDY: Two miles, 2.2 miles per gallon. If we raise fuel efficiency by 7.6 miles per gallon, we eliminate 100 percent of our imports from the Persian Gulf.

Think of what that would do, not only for our national security, for our balance of payments, but also for our air and water and for our economy. All of us would be richer. If I were driving a 40-mile- per-gallon car, I spend about $3,000 a year on gasoline with my 25- mile-per-gallon minivan, I would have about $1,000 in my pocket at the end of the year.

Now, people were excited when President Bush sent out a $300 check to every American taxpayer, because they said, well, that's going to help the economy. What would happen if we were all getting $1,000 every year that we are now sending to dictators and to terrorists in the Mideast? And what would it do for our national policy?

I mean, one of the problems with installing democracy in Iraq is that every Arab in the world, as you probably know, believes that the reason that we're over there is for oil.

BROWN: Yes.

KENNEDY: How much more would we be able to leverage our power if that wasn't an issue, if we weren't depending on propping up these Mideastern dictator who we shouldn't have anything to do with?

BROWN: Just on -- one more short one on gas mileage here. It doesn't sound like -- two miles a gallon doesn't sound like a whole lot. Why is that so hard to accomplish?

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Is it a political question or a psychological question?

KENNEDY: No, it isn't.

In fact, we were up to 27 miles per gallon. And over the last five years, we've dropped about five miles per gallon. During the Carter administration, we had corporate average fuel efficiency standards. He passed them in 1979 during the second oil crisis. Within six years, we had dropped fuel efficiency -- we had gained seven miles per gallon and we went from 20 to 27 miles per gallon.

That created an oil glut in this country and we almost eliminated 100 percent of Mideastern oil from the United States. That year, the automobile industry and the oil industry approached the Reagan administration and asked David Stockman to roll back the CAFE standards. He did that. We doubled imports from the Gulf and they have been going up ever since. If we had left those in place, we would not have imported one drop of Gulf oil after 1986. We would not have had a Gulf War. Think of the possibilities. Think of the World Trade Center still standing.

BROWN: We have got about a minute, a little less. Let's broaden this out a bit.

Just, as you look at the world, literally, I guess in this case, are these -- are you encouraged by the way people see environmental issues, even if they're not quite ready to act on them, or are you discouraged these days?

KENNEDY: I'm discouraged because of this administration. We have an opportunity now to shift to hydrogen fuel cells, which is we ought to be doing. We need to have a hydrogen-based economy that is within grasp. We need an Apollo project to get us there.

Instead, what Congress passed two days ago and what the president proposed is a $20 billion energy subsidy to oil, coal, and gas, the richest companies in America. It's a gift to those corporations and to Saudi Arabia. It's a terrible, terrible catastrophe for the American people.

BROWN: Nice to have you with us tonight. You'll come back and talk about...

KENNEDY: Thanks for having me here.

BROWN: Thank you -- Robert Kennedy Jr. with us.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: another in our series on war in still life. Tonight: life in Baghdad from Eric Seals of the Knight Ridder chain shooting for "The Detroit Free Press."

We'll take a look at his pictures after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you watch NEWSNIGHT regularly -- and you do, don't you? -- you know that we are big fans of still photographers. And we've been trying to bring their work in Iraq.

And tonight, again, we do, Eric Seals of the Knight Ridder chain shooting for "The Detroit Free Press." He was, to his chagrin, caught outside of Iraq for the war. But now he's made it in, covering what could be the toughest and most important battle of them all: winning the peace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ERIC SEALS, "THE DETROIT FREE PRESS": Before the war, I was in Jordan. We were waiting for the Iraqi refugees to show up there everyone thought would stream from Iraq and from Baghdad into Jordan, like they did back in 1991. But the Iraqis didn't show up.

On April 9, about 130 journalists from around the world including myself and a couple of reporters, we were going to try to storm the border because we were all desperate to get into Iraq, especially two days after the Saddam statue fell and we all knew it was over.

My name is Eric Seals. I am a staff photographer at "The Detroit Free Press." And I'm currently working in Baghdad and I've been here for about a week and a half; 156 Iraqi police officers were supposed to show up to this college to report for work. But instead, 2,000 showed up because they heard about it on the radio. So the whole college was swarmed with the police officers wanting their jobs back. And this gentleman was kind of in charge of the whole operation. And one man that had his arms up yelling at him was basically an angry officer demanding his job. We came across a checkpoint and there were about maybe five or six Iraqi locals with AK-47 machine guns. And they were checking cars. It was kind of neat that the Iraqis are taking pride in the fall of the regime and wanting to restore order themselves.

We had heard rumors of an underground prison. And rumor had it that there were a bunch of Kuwaitis and one American held in this underground prison that people forgot about. So we went into this bunker, hoping to find a prison and run into these prisoners. And instead, we ran into roomfuls of weapons, from bullets to a hand grenade, land mines, a rocket-propelled grenade.

Besides weapons, there was paperwork all over the place. And as I was walking along, people were showing me old Kuwaiti and Iraqi passports with pictures. I felt like an explorer, an adventurer going into unknown places, like the weapons depot. Going into neighborhoods where they were shooting, and I had to wear my vest and my helmet. And you just never know what is around the corner here.

In Saddam's palace compound, he had two garages full of collectible, classic, luxury cars. It was amazing walking in and seeing all these classic cars that were dusty from the U.S. bombing on Saddam's palace. There was a 1935 Packard. And the tanks were ordered to run these things over, because some of Saddam's people put these cars in the middle of the road to block the tanks' forward progress.

I love being a photojournalist. And I think I have one of the greatest jobs in the world, to tell stories with pictures and to try to have an impact on people's lives with my pictures and tell people what's going on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Eric Seals with "The Detroit Free Press" and the Knight Ridder chain, which ends hour No. 1. But as Ernie Banks once said, let's play two.

And so, in the second hour of NEWSNIGHT, we will look extensively at the SARS situation, from China to Canada. Then we'll talk with an expert about whether we are worrying too much these days about SARS.

And later, back to the Watergate scandal and the claim by a college professor and his journalism students that they know the identity of Deep Throat -- that and more in the next hour.

First a break, then a check of the latest headlines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

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