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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Bush Tells Arab-Americans, Live Audience Across Arab World That U.S. Would Let Iraqi People Choose Their Next Government

Aired April 28, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone, I'm Anderson Cooper in for Aaron Brown.
Today was a very special day for the people of Iraq. Saddam Hussein, if he's alive, turned 66 today. And, for the first time in decades, April 28 was a day the Iraqis didn't have to celebrate. Gone were the clenched smiles, the staged rallies and the fear that if they didn't show up, the secret police would come a-knockin' at their door step.

Some home town supporters in Tikrit did come out to support Saddam Hussein, but they were certainly the exception to the rule. One Iraqi did have a birthday wish of sorts. He wished for the birth of a new Iraq and said this, quote, "We ask God that he never returns because we are happy, and God willing, things will get better."

The push to create a new and a better Iraq was the message today from President Bush speaking to the huge Arab-American community of Dearborn, Michigan. Senior White House correspondent John King is on that. John, the headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the president told those Arab-Americans and a live audience across the Arab world that the United States would let the Iraqi people choose their next government. Yet the president's top aides said one thing this administration will not allow is like a fundamentalist regime like in neighboring Iran. Some say that's a contradiction. The White House Says it's not, but certainly can see it's a reflection of the challenges still to come -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, more on that later, John.

On to the mystery of Saddam Hussein, the birthday boy. Is he dead or alive? David Ensor has the latest on what the U.S. intelligence community is hearing. David, the headline.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well some of what they're hearing, Anderson, comes from their best-known prisoner, Tariq Aziz. He's now talking, saying things about Saddam Hussein, possibly some things about weapons of mass destruction, as well. Useful clues, if he's telling the truth.

COOPER: And a big "if" that is.

We also focus tonight on a different mystery, the hunt for weapons of mass destruction. Nic Robertson has that from outside Biji (ph). Nic, the headline.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron -- Anderson, I'm sorry -- 14 drums found in a field here. Two sets of tests say they contain nerve agent and mustard gas. A third test come up absolutely negative. The big question is, do they contain chemical weapons or merely rocket fuel -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, back to you shortly, Nic.

Back to the U.S. now and the story that consumed so much of our case last fall, the sniper case. It seems like an awful long time ago but it wasn't. Jeanne Meserve has the latest on Lee Boyd Malvo. Jeanne, the headline.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: During police questioning, Lee Boyd Malvo asked, Do I get to see my attorneys? The defense says that was a request for a lawyer. The prosecution says it was not. The answer will largely determine whether Malvo's alleged confessions will be admitted at trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And we'll have more on those stories coming up.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, what may well be the most emotional part of rebuilding lower Manhattan. How best to remember the lives lost. We're going to look at the worldwide competition that began today to design the memorial.

And the latest on SARS. Hints of some good news from the World Health Organization for every place except for China, that is. We'll have a report from Beijing and talk about the situation in Canada with the Toronto bureau chief for "TIME" magazine.

Want to begin, however, with the president's trip, his speech to Arab-Americans today in Dearborn was the first in more than two months not given at a military base or a defense contractor. The focus, what happens next in Iraq and here at home as well. And in case the symbolism went unnoticed, the president also spent a portion of his time today getting the endorsement of Detroit automakers for his tax plan. Here aging, CNN's senior White House correspondent John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The president told the audience of Arab- Americans there is no doubt about the bottom line.

BUSH: The Iraqi people would choose their own leaders. And their own government. America has no intention of imposing our form of government or our culture.

KING: But Mr. Bush also appealed for patience and was well aware his speech in Michigan was being carried live across the Arab world by Al-Jazeera, Abu Dhabi TV and other media outlets often critical of U.S. motives in Iraq and across the Middle East.

BUSH: The work of building a new Iraq will take time. That nation's recovering not just from weeks of conflict, but from decades of totalitarian rule.

KING: The White House says Mr. Bush is open to an Islamic democracy in Iraq. But the president says there must be some separation of church and state, and the administration says it will not allow a fundamentalist regime like in neighboring Iran. The president's speech coincided with a major U.S. organized political meeting in Baghdad. The latest step in the difficult process of shaping Iraq's post war politics, and navigating its ethnic and religious rivalries. It also was Saddam Hussein's 66th birthday and Mr. Bush said the former Iraqi leader, not the troops who toppled his regime is to blame for the country's major problems.

BUSH: While the dictator spent billion on weapons, including gold covered AK-47s, nearly a quarter of Iraqi children were born underweight.

KING: The USS Abraham Lincoln is steaming home to San Diego. And will be the stage for a speech on Thursday in which Mr. Bush will say the major combat phase in Iraq is over, and the focus now shifts to security and reconstruction.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: But as he prepares that speech, aides say the president is very mindful of the delicate political situation and of the daunting challenge of reconstruction. So they say his message aboard that aircraft carrier will essentially be this: the United States has won the war, but much more must be done to win the peace, so U.S. troops will stay in Iraq for some time to come -- Anderson.

COOPER: John, we've been hearing this for several days now from a lot of people in the administration. Heard it from President Bush, from Donald Rumsfeld, I think it was yesterday or the day before that, saying that the U.S. will not allow an Iran-style regime in Iraq. Have they given any specifics on how they're going to prevent that from happening?

KING: Well what they say is first you come up with a shape of a new government. Will it be regionally elected? Will it have a strong president or a prime minister?

They say that if there is guarantee that you keep the country as a whole, if there's representatives from the north so you would have Kurds in the government, so that you can prevent it from becoming overwhelmingly Shi'ite. But the Shi'ites are 60 percent of the country and the administration says they are likely to dominate any new democratically government.

That is why the administration is going slow and says before you have elections you must put in civil liberties, civil rights, the rule of law, a judicial system and a police system to guarantee the rights of minorities are protected regardless of who wins the elections. COOPER: And, John, you said the speech was carried life on Al- Jazeera, some other Arab stations. Did the president give interviews to those stations, do you know?

KING: He did not. But the White House did allow Arab reporters into a roundtable, a closed roundtable the president had with the Arab-Americans in which the discussion focused on post-war Iraq and the politics of it.

At one point today no U.S. reporters were going to be allowed in. Because of protests from us here at the White House, one U.S. reporter was allowed in. But the administration deliberately catered to the Arab media here, they knew the audience at home was important, but they believed the audience overseas was much more important on this day.

COOPER: All right, John King at the White House, thanks very much.

It of course remains an open question whether Saddam Hussein lived to see his 66th birthday. One view comes from his former deputy, Tariq Aziz, a man many Americans got to know well over the years. He is, of course, in custody of American interrogators right now.

Now a number of reports had him demanding asylum in Great Britain, even a new identity for what he knows. There's a story Britain's prime minister today called ridiculous. Instead Tariq Aziz appears to be talking like Sammy the Bull even without a deal like Sammy the Bull. Here again CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): Tariq Aziz is telling his interrogators, U.S. officials say, that he saw Saddam Hussein alive in the first few days of April. After the first airstrikes intended to kill him March 19, but before the second attempt on April 7. U.S. Officials say it will take sometime to assess whether Aziz is telling the truth or not.

KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: We have to take Tariq Aziz's claims with a few grains of salt. What we have seen from all of the senior Iraqi officials is that as they're going into captivity, they're repeating the regimes propaganda line. In part, I think all of them quite nervous about the possibility of war crimes trials.

ENSOR: For his part, General Tommy Franks is not persuaded by what Aziz said so far about Saddam's possible survival.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: I have seen nothing over the last week or two that convinces me that he is still alive.

ENSOR: Aziz is also saying according to officials he knows the regime destroyed some weapons of mass destruction or related materials in the period prior to the war when U.S. troops were moving into the region. WOOLSEY: I think that what's important is that a lot of what we were looking for and are still looking for are not big things like nuclear reactors. They're containers of VX or nerve gas or they're small containers of anthrax (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And they could be most anywhere. They could be buried.

ENSOR: Barrels of materials, missiles and gas mask, were found by U.S. special forces in Biji northwest of Baghdad Saturday. Possible mobile labs also found. Two initial tests on the materials suggest the presence of nerve agents, a third test did not, but more testing is underway.

TONY BLAIR, PRIME MINISTER OF BRITAIN: As I say every time, I'm asked I remain confident they will be found.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: The two issues, Saddam Hussein and the weapons, may be linked in this sense. Intelligence officials say that they fear that some of the knowledgeable Iraqi officials that they have in their hands may not be willing to say what they really know about the weapons of mass destruction until they are confident that Saddam Hussein is either captured or killed -- Anderson.

COOPER: David, have you heard anything from sources about whether or not Tariq Aziz is asking for some sort of a deal? I mean there have been all these conflicting reports all weekend long.

ENSOR: I'm told by knowledgeable officials that there were no deals given to him. He may have been asking for things. In fact, I know he was because there was an intermediary, an American in fact, who was acting as an intermediary on his behalf the day before he turned himself in. But I'm told by U.S. officials they promised him nothing in return except an orderly process and any medical attention he needed, he would get. And he does have heart problems. So I assume he's getting medical care.

COOPER: Are interrogators able to make a deal? My understanding, if there is to be a war crimes tribunal down the road, it would probably be an Iraqi affair and is it, therefore, even up to the U.S. to be making deals?

ENSOR: It is not possible for the U.S. to promise anything certain about the treatment that any of the prisoners will get because it hasn't been decided yet. There's a lot of U.S. lawyer time going into this right now, how this should be handled with these senior Iraqi prisoners.

Are they prisoners of war, are they war criminals, or are they something in between?

COOPER: All right, David Ensor, at the Pentagon, thanks very much.

Saddam Hussein may seem like old business by now, but there is new business ahead in Baghdad. How to fashion a new Iraq for mostly broken pieces of the old man.

For that we go to CNN's Karl Penhaul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraqi looters stare at the barrels of American guns. Captured in downtown Baghdad where they tried to raid a bank. Coalition forces are still battling to restore law and also government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To start our meeting today...

PENHAUL: Across the city in this convention center, 250 Iraqis met with retired U.S. General Jay Garner, Iraq's administrator. The debate, how to create a caretaker administration until elections can be held.

LT. GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), U.S. CIVIL ADMINISTRATOR FOR IRAQ: Today on the birthday of Saddam Hussein, let's start a Democratic process for the children of Iraq.

PENHAUL: The delegates, returning exiles, tribal leaders, clerics, academics and technical experts. Coalition officials declined to assure a full list of those invited, those who showed up or who the guests represented. Chaotic may be, but then Saddam Hussein's survival was founded on suppression of all political opposition.

MIKE O'BRIEN, BRITISH FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER: I think in the long term we need to create a process which will generate a much more representative and democratic group of people who can genuinely claim to be speaking for Iraq as a whole.

PENHAUL: Iraqis are divided over the future role for coalition forces. Some see them as peacekeepers. Others, like these protesters from the majority Shi'a Muslim population, want coalition troops out. They say the U.S. and Britain will try to impose leaders on Iraq. Fears echoed by some conference delegates.

SAYED MOUSTAFA AL-QAZWINI, EXILED SHI'A CLERIC: But if there is another influence going on in this conference, and they just want people to endorse certain policies, I don't think that Shi'a population will be happy with that.

PENHAUL: Although Iraqis may have escaped the mandatory birthday celebrations for Saddam Hussein this year, they can't see any reason to party just yet yet.

"Now the picture is not clear. There's no government, no stability."

PENHAUL: The conference ended only with agreement to meet again. No firm timetable for when an interim Iraqi authority could be in place.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: History has shown that repressive regimes often love to keep records of their crimes. Nazis did. So did the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), they even took pictures. The Ba'athists it seems were no different. But of all the records they kept and new ones are being discovered ever day, an inventory of bugs and chemicals has yet to materialize. The search for weapons of mass destruction has been a story of soldiers stumbling onto something that might or might not be the 55 gallon smoking drum.

Here's again CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Neatly stacked on a barren hill side, the U.S. military's latest suspected chemical weapons find. Already the first results being called into question. First Lieutenant Phipps found what she found when she got to the site.

1st LT. VALERIE PHIPPS, U.S. ARMY: This area here is the area that we were testing. The barrel that stands straight up is the one we opened.

ROBERTSON: Fourteen, 55-gallon drums in all out in the fields, unlike other sites already investigated, not an industrial plant.

PHIPPS: We got to the barrels. The one barrel we decided to open was giving us seven bars of G nerve on our (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ROBERTSON: Almost full scale reading, indicating the deadly nerve agent.

PHIPPS: Once we opened it, we tested the liquid on M8 paper and M9 paper, which showed blister.

ROBERTSON: A lethal blistering agent, later test showed could be mustard gas. Since then, the 1st 10th Calvary have been guarding the site while waiting for more advance test results. The first from a sensitive site team found close a match to results of Lieutenant Phipps. But the second test follow up test by a mobile exploitation team came up with negative results, suggesting the liquid may be nothing more than rocket fuel. And there were missiles dug into the hillside close to the chemical drums. But adding to the questions about this site, two mobile laboratories. Nothing in them makes their use easy to interpret.

(on camera): Meters showing thousands, hundreds, tens and units. On the back hall a table of operation, calibration zero setting, metering of test and calibration doses. Here UNIDENTIFIED MALE: diagram charts, an electrical diagram chart. And on the back a correction table in English. On the bottom, dose settings, prescribed dose, prescribed dose with Algebraic corrections. But difficult the know what this vehicle was designed to do.

(voice-over): Produce chemical weapons or missile propellant? When the complete results come back from the chemicals tested here, they'll also be a better indication of what these labs were used for. For now it seems the search for proof to support the premise for war that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction will have to go on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Now the samples that have been sent away for analysis could be yielding results as early as this morning. However it still may take a few more days -- Anderson.

COOPER: Nic, there's been talk about whether or not U.N. weapons inspectors should be allowed back into the country to search out. There's been a lot of talk about the quality of the inspectors who are there now, the U.S. inspectors or at least the soldiers searching for these weapons.

The group who found this, and the soldiers who are there now, are they part of a specialized unit of any kind?

ROBERTSON: Three different teams have worked on this particular site. It was initially on a tip that special forces got from Iraqi citizens saying that they believe chemical weapons were here. What happened then, the units that are operating in this area sent in their own Fox (ph) Teams. These are the teams designated out in the field to essentially look for protection from the troops. Their testing is really designed to make sure in battlefield conditions any chemical weapons are detected early. Their test came back positive. A second team went in, a sensitive site team, their tests came back positive. Then the mobile exploitation team, and higher level team, their results came back negative so far.

And they are the most senior team to have looked at this site. What is clear here is there are a lot of different sites to be looked at in the daily work for the Foxs teams for the troops that are based here. They're busy every day looking at sites, most of those sites come up negative. The sensitive site teams, the exploitation site teams, they're only tasked when something is already been found. So many sites are now being pointed out by Iraqi citizens, they're very stretched. There are not many of these teams. They're on the go all the time. So all the people, even the soldier here, are asking how come if we get positive results, how come the other teams are getting negatives?

COOPER: Good question. All right, Nic Robertson, thanks very much.

Coming up, NEWSNIGHT, a lot ahead.

The Democrats are talking about universal health care again. The question, is anybody listening? We'll talk with Dick Gephardt, who says he has a plan and a plan to pay for it.

Also, the search begins for a person to design the memorial at ground zero in New York. You're watching NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)

COOPER: .. we want to pick up the discussion with one of the Democratic candidates who hopes to defeat him in 2004. Our guest wants to scrap the tax cut altogether and use the money for health insurance instead. Richard Gephardt, congressman of Missouri, formerly House minority leader and currently an candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2004.

Welcome to NEWSNIGHT.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Let's talk about this proposal a little bit. It's essentially, as I understand it, employer tax credits. You want every company to offer their workers health insurance and basically the government will supplement the cost, at least 60 percent of it.

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Roughly 60 percent of their cost of the health care. And it applies to part-time workers and retired workers. I also give 60 percent of the cost of health care to state and local governments. So we try to treat everybody fairly and evenly, something that we've had trouble with in the past.

COOPER: It's not just that. There's also additional supplements for low-income people, is that right?

GEPHARDT: Right. We try to help low-income workers who are 200 percent of poverty or below. We help them with their 40 percent of the share if their employer doesn't add anything to the 60 percent.

And we try to do something with unemployed workers through COBRA and people who lose their job after age 55 and Medicare. It's -- this is national health care through the present system. We don't change the way health care is delivered and who pays for it.

COOPER: Right, avoiding problems that the Clinton proposals had several years ago.

GEPHARDT: Right.

COOPER: Of course, the question of how is it paid for, where does the money come from and how much does this cost is on everyone's minds. The figures you have been releasing, $210 billion in the first year alone, saying it's going to go up a lot after that. Staggering sums of money. Where does the money come from?

GEPHARDT: Health care is expensive but a lack of health care is even more expensive. And what I want to say to people is, if you like the Bush tax cuts, you think that's really been good for you, then stick with that. But if you want to go in a different direction and you want to solve this problem and frankly, put more money in everybody's pocket, every month, every year than the Bush tax cuts, then come with me. This is a way to solve a problem that's bedeviled this country for forever.

COOPER: But the money comes from, just talking nuts and bolts, the money comes basically from repealing the tax cut of 2001, the Bush cut, and also defeating the changes, the dividends this year?

GEPHARDT: Right. And if this passes and I'm president, I would go to Congress and ask for them to put aside all of the Bush tax cuts, whatever's on the books by that time, and use the money rather for this. Which I think is more stimulative of the economy, builds more jobs, puts more money in people's pockets.

COOPER: But isn't a repeal of a tax cut the same thing as a tax increase?

GEPHARDT: Not if you're substituting a tax cut of equal measure that has more stimulative quality than what the president's plan does.

COOPER: There's some small business owners and leaders who say this is just bad for small businesses. It puts too much, you know, onus on them.

GEPHARDT: I think people who run these organizations ought to go out and talk to the small business people who deal with this every day. I've talked to a lot of them across the country. They are excited about getting real help from the government to help them be able to offer this plan.

Most employers want health care for their employees. They have a more productive employee, a more loyal employee. And from the employee's viewpoint, this can cut their cost in health care.

COOPER: What about deficits? This implies deficit spending. Have you given up the idea of balancing a budget?

GEPHARDT: Well first of all, I think my plan is more stimulative. I think the only way we're really going to balance the budget is to get the economy to go again. That's what happened in the late '90s. So I think my plan is better to get the deficit down because we'll get the economy moving.

But the other point I'll make is if George Bush gets reelected he's going to keep his tax cuts in place. He's not going to deal with the deficit. I will have ways of dealing with the deficit other than dealing with taxes. I will have other tax reform proposals. I will stimulate the economy more than he does. I think we can get this economy going. That's the best way to get rid of the deficit.

COOPER: Fellow Democrat Howard Dean, also presidential candidate in the next election, says that this proposal is about politics, it's not practical. Basically this is a way for you to separate yourself from the Democratic pack even though politically it doesn't really have a chance. Or the at very best it has an uphill battle ahead of it.

GEPHARDT: This is something that I have thought about, worried about, cared about for over 20 years. I have been involved in every health care fight in the Congress in the last 25 years.

I have a son who, when he was 2, had cancer. They said it was terminal. We got him through it, through great doctors and nurses and the grace of God. I met a lot of parents at the time whose kids had cancer, didn't have health insurance.

This is a moral issue as well as an economic issue. We have to do this. We have to rationalize this system, we have to help all of our people get health care.

COOPER: All right, Representative Gephardt, thanks very much for being with us.

GEPHARDT: Thank you.

COOPER: All right, nice to meet you.

We'll be right back. A lot more ahead on NEWSNIGHT. A competition began today, competition perhaps not the most appropriate way to describe it. That's what it is. A competition to see who will design the memorial at Ground Zero. We already know what buildings will rise where the Twin Towers used to be. The question now to be answered, how nestled among the new buildings on a few acres of that hallowed ground will the nearly 3,000 people who died there will be remembered. Here's CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are the people who will decide what the World Trade Center memorial will look like, 13 jurors selected to chose the winning design -- architects, academics, artists and Paula Grant Berry, who lost her husband on September 11.

PAULA GRANT BERRY, WTC MEMORIAL JUROR: We must never lose sight of why we're doing this and who we're doing it for. Magnificent people died and we must be magnificent in how we honor them. We must be humble, even noble. We must try to make them proud.

CARROLL: Anyone from anywhere can enter. Entrants, who will be kept anonymous to the jury, need only be 18 or older and pay a $25 fee. The design should fit on a four and a half acre section of the site and take into account the winning site design by architect Daniel Liebeskind.

ANITA CONTINI, TOWER MANHATTAN DEVELOPMENT COMP.: The memorial guidelines are intentionally flexible, leaving open the widest possibilities for design proposals from individuals or teams.

CARROLL (on camera): Jurors say the winning design will have to stitch together a number of complex ideas. It will have to remember those who lost their lives here at the site while at the same time it will have to symbolize renewal.

(voice-over): One juror is Maya Lin, who changed the concept of what a memorial could look like. Her abstract wall of names was chosen for the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C. in 1981 when she was an unknown 21-year-old architecture student.

MAYA LIN, WTC MEMORIAL JUROR: You enter a competition not necessarily to win, but to say what you truly believe needs to be done there. I don't believe you try to second guess any jury.

CARROLL: Five finalists will be chosen in September, the winner in October. The jury could chose a piece of art to stand here or architecture or a combination of both. Whatever it is, jurors say the process must produce a memorial like no other.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well coming up on NEWSNIGHT the latest new headlines. And after that the latest on the Washington sniper case. Chilling details from the interrogation of the teenager arrested in the case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We want to bring you up to date now on the latest on the sniper case and a hearing involving statements made by teenage suspect Lee Boyd Malvo after his arrest.

Now, it's easy to let emotions get in the way of this story. The details coming out of the Malvo interrogations are shocking, to say the least. Prosecutors say he admitted to playing a role in many of the shootings and seemed to enjoy it, in fact. But this is a matter of law, not of emotions. The question: Was the interrogation done by the book, and, if not, should the statements be thrown out?

Here's CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE (voice-over): The interrogation is key. In it, prosecutors say, Malvo admits to several of the sniper shootings. In court Monday, one of his interrogators provided new details about exactly what Malvo allegedly said.

Fairfax County detective June Boyle testified that Malvo laughed as he described the shooting of James Sonny Buchanan, saying that, when Buchanan fell, the lawn mower he had been using kept rolling; also more about a previously unexplained shooting the first night of the sniper spree at a Michaels craft store. No one was hit, but investigators say Malvo told them the intended target was a child who was skipping outside. Boyle said Malvo told her, his bullet there came so close -- quote -- "I might have even parted his hair."

And when Malvo was asked about where he shot Linda Franklin, the FBI analyst gunned down in a Home Depot parking lot, Boyle says Malvo chuckled as he held his finger to his head.

But was the interrogation legal? Detective Boyle testified that she and Malvo chatted casually for several hours. At one point Malvo did ask, "Do I get to see my attorney?" Boyle answered yes. And Malvo said his lawyers had advised him not to talk to police until they got there. That, according to Boyle, was not a formal request to see a lawyer. But, she said, when talk veered toward Malvo's alleged crimes, she did read him his rights and asked four times if he wanted to see a lawyer. She says Malvo answered no, adding, "If I don't want to answer, I won't."

Several lawyers and a court-appointed guardian testified that they tried to stop any questioning of Malvo, but prosecutors said that, at the time, none of them had the legal standing to do so. The final decision will be up to the judge, who will hear more testimony Tuesday, before deciding whether the interrogation can be admitted at trial.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Fairfax, Virginia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, this next story might as well be a story out of one those novels you buy just before you board a flight and then leave behind when you land, pulp fiction acceptable for passing the time, but too sordid and steamy to take home. This ought to be fiction, too, given that it's about a basement dungeon and women held captive. But it is not fiction.

Here's the report from Jamie Colby on the charges against a man in custody in Upstate New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is John Jamelske, a 67-year-old retired handyman who police say is a serial rapist with a torture chamber under his house, where he kept his victims for periods ranging from two months to two years.

So far, Jamelske has been charged with kidnapping and raping only his latest alleged victim, a 16-year-old whose escape three weeks ago led to Jamelske's arrest. In a statement to the county sheriff, the teenager said...

KEVIN WALSH, ONONDAGA COUNTY SHERIFF: "I cried and I prayed every day of captivity. I never cried in front of him again after he slapped me so hard he injured my ear." She's still deaf in that ear. "I did everything he asked, hoping that he would release me."

COLBY: Two other teenagers and a woman in her mid-20s claimed Jamelske held them, too. And Monday, police said they've identified a fifth alleged victim, a woman in her 50s who claimed she was held for 10 months.

WALSH: She was raped and tortured in his dungeon, her phrase. And that occurred about five years ago.

COLBY: This woman, now 28, held two years ago, told her story to CNN affiliate WSTM.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt -- basically felt like an animal just rotting away, like some sex animal for his pleasure.

COLBY: The women told police they were forced to keep diaries of their physical activity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was supposed to have sex with him every day. And if I didn't have sex with him every day, then that would add on to the time that I was going to be there.

COLBY: In a statement obtained by CNN, Jamelske told police his relationship with the 16-year-old was consensual and -- quote -- "fun," and that he thought she was 18. "We are also planning on going to my 50th high school reunion together. I can't wait. Everyone's going to be like: 'Wow, John, look at you two. That's great.' I have no intentions of marrying her. I'm just going to have as much fun as I can. If it only last two or three years, that's fine."

As police piece together the five tales of torture, they are asking any other women who say they were victims of Jamelske to come forward.

(on camera): Two of the alleged victims filed police reports after their ordeal. Investigators admit they were never fully pursued. Jamelske is being held without bail. His attorney tells CNN he will ask a judge for his client to submit to a psychiatric evaluation.

Jamie Colby, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the latest on SARS, as the Chinese prepare for the possibility that thousands more people may have to be quarantined.

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COOPER: Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT: the mistakes made in the battle against SARS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: There was an update on SARS today from the World Health Organization. The WHO said that the worst could be over in places that have been hard-hit, except for China, that is.

Now, if you look at the glass half full, that sounds like good news. If you're a glass-half-empty type, you may remember that about one in five people on the planet live in China. Today, in China, there was one thing beyond interpretation. At least eight more people died there.

More from CNN's Jaime FlorCruz in Beijing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAIME FLORCRUZ, CNN BUREAU CHIEF, BEIJING (voice-over): Another ambulance streaming into a Beijing hospital designated for SARS treatment -- a sight becoming all too common in the Chinese capital. Responding to the emergency, China is taking draconian measures. Hospitals, college dormitories, and a construction site have been closed for mass quarantine. Thousands of cinemas, karaoke bars, and other entertainment venues have also been closed.

ALAN SCHNUR, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: The SARS virus spreads so easily, you have to be 300% ready. So I think to go a bit beyond what one thinks is necessary for SARS is not a bad thing.

FLORCRUZ: Still, Beijing's airport and train stations are jammed with fleeing migrant workers, students, and tourists -- despite attempts to restrict travel. Some areas have set up roadblocks to screen travelers coming in. Inside the city, passengers of public transport have dropped off by half.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We should just try our best to protect ourselves. I think the government will find a solution soon, so we don't have to overreact worrying about this.

FLORCRUZ: In city streets, traffic has been unusually light as more people stay in. Business establishments hung signs of temporary closures. Beijing is preparing for the worst. In the suburbs, a new quarantine area is being finished to accommodate more than 1,000 SARS patients. But experts say they have little idea of when or where the city's SARS cases are occurring.

SCHNUR: We need now to have the disease data to evaluate what the effect of these measures so we can modify them or continue them as required.

FLORCRUZ: Lack of information they say, may be prompting panic.

(on camera) After months of foot-dragging and cover-ups, China is now reporting SARS cases more openly. But unless they share all the crucial data with the outside world, SARS will continue to spread while tourists and residents continue to leave.

Jaime FlorCruz, CNN, Beijing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: We go to Canada now, where the face masks are beginning to lift, literally. Workers at one major hospital got the green light, after many weeks, to remove their masks in some parts of the building. One doctor said -- quote -- "It is like a carnival around here."

Meanwhile, Canadian officials are pushing hard on the World Health Organization to end their travel warning on Toronto, a lot to talk about with Steven Frank, the Toronto bureau chief for "TIME" magazine.

Steven, thanks for being with us.

STEVEN FRANK, "TIME": Thank you. COOPER: Toronto is a city with first-class medicine, first-class hospitals. How could this thing have gotten so out of control?

FRANK: Well, the main thing to remember is that this was a very difficult situation.

A man showed up with symptoms to an unknown disease, or practically unknown disease, in a suburban hospital and officials had to try and figure out what was going on. It took a while. It took at least a day before he was isolated. And it took six days before they could even figure out it was SARS. This is before the World Health Organization put out their first major SARS alert. And the man also had no obvious connection to Hong Kong, at least immediately.

COOPER: And I read the account that you wrote on this in "TIME" magazine. And it is fascinating.

Basically, he had gotten it from his mother, who had died. His symptoms came up, I think, the day before she died. And then you trace this thing step by step. And it's just frightening. He was put in the hospital. The man he was in the hospital -- or the two people that he was in the hospital room with got it. They gave it to their family members. And then, when they came to visit the family, they gave it to other people literally in the waiting room. This thing just spread -- it's an extraordinary story on how it spread.

FRANK: Right.

The officials isolated the man and his family within a day, finally when they realized -- they diagnosed it as T.B. What they did not do is isolate any of the contacts this man may have had when he had been in the hospital for 24 hours. Should they have? Well, it's very difficult to say, because they did not know how infectious he was. So I think that's the first problem that people are going to have to look at in the aftermath of this: How do we get more information to front-line health workers?

COOPER: There was a city -- in Vancouver, I believe, a man was isolated, whereas in Toronto, he was not. Why the difference?

FRANK: Well, that's why I say this was a difficult problem, but it was not an impossible problem to solve.

The Vancouver situation was, the man arrived from the airport, basically. He went to his doctor. His doctor sent him right on to an emergency ward at Vancouver General Hospital. They looked at the situation and isolated him within two hours, partly, they say, because they were anticipating the possibility of some strange virus from Asia.

Now, whether the Toronto people had the same information , it's hard to say. It doesn't seem that they did.

COOPER: There's been some good news, in that I think Vietnam is about to be taken off the list by the WHO because they've had no new cases, I think it's since April 8. So they've sort of reached the threshold.

But the bad news is that there are now I think five cases -- or at least five confirmed cases in India. What does the experience in Toronto tell you about what needs to be done early on and also how quickly this thing can spread? If it can spread this quickly in Toronto based on this one man going into a hospital, what could happen in India with five cases where health care certainly is nowhere near the level of Toronto?

FRANK: Well, that's the scary part. Toronto, like you say, is as advanced as, say, anywhere in the world in terms of medicine.

I think the point is to act as quickly and as cautiously as possible. And there's -- you have to just err on the side of caution and try and follow every step of the way on which contact could have been made.

COOPER: I know some Asian countries have begun infrared screening of passengers as they get off planes entering the country. Some people don't even know they're being screened. It's basically just a camera. Is it true that, in Toronto, they're going to start doing that? I had a heard a report of that.

FRANK: Anne McLellan, the health minister, announced today that she's going to look into it.

COOPER: Going to look into it, but not necessarily go ahead and do it?

FRANK: It sounds like they're going to go ahead, as far I could tell.

COOPER: All right, Steven Frank, "TIME" magazine, it was a fascinating piece. I appreciate you joining us. Thanks.

FRANK: Thank you.

COOPER: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: a singer whose signature songs were written a half-century before he was born. He is 19 years old and he is on the rise in the music business -- coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: The latest now on a regular segment here on NEWSNIGHT, one that we call "On the Rise," a look at young up-and-comers; tonight, one voice of a new generation, one that also brings alive the memory of an old generation.

And what a voice it is. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, the world-famous Oak Room is proud to present Peter Cincotti.

PETER CINCOTTI, MUSICIAN (singing): Lock the door and stop complaining

I'm a jazz piano player and singer. I started playing piano when I was 3, playing piano when I was 3. And some of my biggest influences when I was about 5 years old were boogie-woogie piano players like Jerry Lee Lewis, that kind of style. Around like 12 or 13, I started playing clubs here in the city. It was cool. I mean, I wasn't technically allowed to set foot in the place, because I wasn't legal. I'm still not.

And most of the time, I don't get nervous. I just kind of think about the music. And as soon as I hit the piano, I'm in another world. And the audience becomes a separate thing. As much as I want to communicate with them -- and I talk to them and try and interact.

The word is the.

(LAUGHTER)

P. CINCOTTI: Before I went in to record the CD, I met with Phil Ramone a number of times. We both decided that it had to be -- no matter what it was, it had to be honest and it had to be musically representative of where I am right now at 19.

PHIL RAMONE, PRODUCER: The most important thing is the genuineness. He's totally what you see is what you get.

CINCOTTI (singing): Like a flower bending in the breeze.

I started writing when I was 9. And then, one day, I just asked my mother if she would write lyrics. Since then, we've been writing music together. I wrote the music and she would write the lyrics.

CYNTHIA CINCOTTI, PETER'S MOTHER: This past year, he started to write the lyrics himself, which was very exciting for him, because he never thought he would do the lyrics. He was always musical, starting that I noticed was age 3.

P. CINCOTTI: If you practice enough with a metronome at certain tempo, right, like this, it's like playing with a band.

(singing): Are you the one to steal my heart completely?

We're in my room now at home in Manhattan, where I grew up. Ella Fitzgerald, a lot of Nat King Cole. This is all Sinatra, Glenn Gould. Don't show "The Cliff Notes." Some family friends. Sammy Davis Jr. This was one with me and Tony Bennett, and me and Jennifer Love Hewitt. That, never mind.

(singing): I could show the world how to smile.

My father, he was a very important person to me. When he first passed away, I remember I wrote songs right after. And I guess it was kind of an outlet for me. But he's a big part of who I am. Anything I do, he's kind of a part of.

I think, to a certain extent, you're a product of your influences. And then there's the other half of it, that you try and say something new, be innovative. That's what jazz to me mean. My focus is just to play for people who want to listen, whether they're young, whether they're old. I'd love to have everybody as an audience. Hopefully, one day, maybe I will.

(singing): I love being here with you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Nineteen years old. Man, makes me feel old.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: our bonus half-hour. We'll begin with reports of a pledge to give up nukes by North Koreans. We'll tell you what they want in return.

That's after a break and the latest news headlines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We move on now to the problem of North Korea, and what a problem it is. Maybe we should call it the "dilemma of North Korea" or perhaps the "enigma," or maybe the "conundrum." There are a lot of ways to look at it, even in Washington.

Here's a report from CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only days after President Bush warned North Korea's President Kim Jong Il against nuclear blackmail, Secretary of State Powell sounded a slightly less ominous note.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: They did put forward a plan that would ultimately deal with their nuclear capability and their missile activities. But they, of course, expect something considerable in return.

KOPPEL: U.S. officials tell CNN during last week's talks in Beijing, North Korea said it expected Washington to make the first move, demanding, among other things, written assurances the U.S. would not attack. But even then, North Korea's envoy said his government would only consider taking reciprocal steps, like dismantling its nuclear program, ending missile tests and permitting weapons inspectors to return.

During the Beijing talks, North Korea also admitted, for first time, it had one nuclear bomb, but with talks ongoing this week between North and South Korea, Secretary Powell dismissed reports suggesting Pyongyang had explicitly threatened to test it.

POWELL: They never used the word "test." They said that it is a kind of capability that one can display in one way or another.

KOPPEL (on camera): The Bush administration is not of one mind as to exactly what North Korea meant by its nuclear declaration last week. Some believe it could be an opening bid at the start of a lengthy negotiation, while others may seize upon it as yet another reason to get even tougher.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, Secretary of State Colin Powell plans to travel to the Middle East, perhaps as early as a few days from now. Now, his itinerary is expected to include Israel, as well as the Palestinian territories, but where he goes, when he goes and who he talks to may hinge on both sides meeting a number of tough challenges.

Here is CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first challenge for Palestinian prime minister-designate Abu Mazen: winning support of his cabinet in the Palestinian parliament. Approval is likely but not guaranteed, Palestinian observers say, due to a perception on the Palestinian street that Abu Mazen is the favorite of the Americans and the Israelis, who want to see Yasser Arafat sidelined.

MAHDI ABDUL HADI, PALESTINIAN ACADEMIC SOCIETY FOR THE STUDY OF INT'L. AFFAIRS: Definitely people are angry, because the legitimacy should come from the people. Now, Abu Mazen has to fight to get his legitimacy, his endorsement from the people.

WALLACE: In an effort to boost his popular support, Abu Mazen said he would not travel abroad to meet international leaders, including U.S. President Bush, until Israel lifts its current travel ban on the Palestinian president. But that is unlikely to happen anytime soon, says his prominent Israeli columnist.

DANNY RUBINSTEIN, "NA'ARETZ" COLUMNIST: In Israel, the Israeli politicians put all the blame of the intifada on one person, on Arafat. So, Arafat shouldn’t expect any kind of, you know, benefits from the Abu Mazen nomination.

WALLACE: In fact, Prime Minister Sharon wants to isolate the Palestinian president, encouraging diplomats not to meet with him, and choosing not to make room on his schedule to see those who do. Israel faces real challenges as well, such as pressure from the United States to take steps to bolster the peace process, including pulling Israeli troops out of Palestinian towns, releasing Palestinian prisoners and easing travel restrictions on the Palestinian people.

But the issue taking center stage: the expected release soon after Abu Mazen's cabinet is ratified of the so-called Mideast road map, drafted by the United States, the European Union, Russia and the U.N. in December.

(on camera): The road map is likely to face a very bumpy path with both sides already expressing different interpretations about what exactly should happen next.

(voice-over): The Palestinians say the road map should be implemented immediately, but Israelis want to see more than a dozen changes made, and before anything, a crackdown on radical Palestinian groups responsible for attacks against Israel.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: We reported earlier tonight on what Tariq Aziz might be telling his interrogators. We want to dig a little deeper into this subject now with John Diamond, who is working the story for "USA Today." Mr. Diamond comes to us tonight from Washington.

Thanks a lot for being on the program, John. Appreciate it.

JOHN DIAMOND, "USA TODAY": You're welcome.

COOPER: What are you hearing that Aziz is saying?

DIAMOND: Aziz told interrogators that he had seen Saddam after the bombings, the two bombings -- the one that opened the war and the one in the first week of April. U.S. officials are not sure whether they can believe what he is saying, because they've also caught him in some lies, both in interrogations and then, of course, in some of the statements he was making before the fall of the regime.

So, there is some uncertainty, although at this point senior officials don't see necessarily a reason for him to lie about Saddam still being alive. There might be a motivation for regime officials to claim that he's dead to give him a chance to regroup perhaps and stage a comeback, but it's one additional piece of evidence from one of the few senior Iraqis who might be in a position to know.

COOPER: I'm not surprised to hear that he was lying before the regime fell. Are you hearing any details on what U.S. officials believe he is lying about now, or what they are pretty sure he is lying about now?

DIAMOND: The senior -- well, it's unclear but because a full debrief on the interrogation has not been made public, but several senior Iraqis, including Aziz, are denying the existence of weapons of mass destruction. Again, this is a problematic issue for the Bush administration. It would be difficult to imagine these officials denying their existence knowing that it could be in a matter of days they could be found by the coalition. So -- but the Bush administration is firm in its belief that these weapons exist.

COOPER: Are there U.S. officials who believe that these Iraqis who are in custody may be holding on to information, hoping to get some sort of negotiation going?

DIAMOND: That's right. Another problematical issue there, too. Yes, senior Pentagon officials say that they perhaps are not getting the best information available, because they want to hold that out for a deal, some sort of leniency. The problem is, is that it may end up being Iraqi tribunals, not American tribunals, which decide their fate. So, the U.S. may not be in a position to cut deals with them.

COOPER: Is anyone putting great significance on the fact that Saddam Hussein's birthday passed relatively without any huge markings, without any big violence? There was a slight marking I think in Tikrit.

DIAMOND: Yes.

COOPER: But are they seeing significance in that fact?

DIAMOND: Yes, the 28th was traditionally a major Iraqi holiday, of course, under Saddam's regime. And there was some feeling that it might be a day for remaining loyalists to stage some sort of coordinated attacks of some kind to make a statement that elements of the regime are still around, still capable of inflicting damage.

Nothing really significant happened today. And so, there is some relief that with the passing of that day, there will be an increasing confidence among the Iraqi people -- and this is a key issue for the administration -- that whether or not Saddam lives, his regime is gone.

COOPER: And though no one seems clear on whether or not he is alive or dead, you don't hear many people talking these days, at least I haven't heard about him being anywhere but in Iraq dead or alive.

DIAMOND: That's right. The Bush administration believes he's inside Iraq. There have been rumors flying around. It's sort of like Hitler after World War II, everyone seems to have seen him and everyone seems to have a theory. There are theories that he went off to Russia, theories he went to Libya, Syria -- you name it -- Belarus. But, no, the best that U.S. intelligence believes is that he is inside Iraq, either dead or alive.

COOPER: We've heard a lot from Ahmad Chalabi, the Iraqi opposition figure, talking about that his organization has been tracking Saddam. They are just a day behind here and there. You know, they have all of this information. They're trying to get him. Are those credible? I mean, do people within the administration, people you are talking to, do they buy any of that?

DIAMOND: Well, certainly Chalabi has now a substantial militia on the ground. It's unclear to me how much credibility U.S. officials are giving that, because U.S. officials are saying they simply don't know. So, they're not backing up what Chalabi is saying, that's for sure.

And Chalabi, of course, has an interest in sort of making a statement that his people are the ones rounding up the bad guys, if you will, and using that effort to help give his group legitimacy, which is very much an open question, because, of course, the Iraqi National Congress, Chalabi's group, has been in existence outside of Iraq for a couple of generations now.

COOPER: Yes.

DIAMOND: And there are people in Iraq who have been suffering under Saddam who aren't sure they are willing to give up power to that particular group.

COOPER: Yes, and certainly if Saddam was alive and he was caught by Chalabi, it would be a big boost to Chalabi's credibility.

Just very briefly, though, you talked about Chalabi's militia. These are basically these Free Iraqi Forces. And the U.S. is kind of using them for security on the ground, aren't they?

DIAMOND: They are, and there are bits of problems there. It appears that there is some intelligence-sharing going on. It may well be that the Bush administration would like Chalabi's people to find some of the regime's senior leaders, because, of course, there are Bush administration officials that have confidence in Chalabi, especially at the Pentagon.

But, yes, his group is leading -- you know, leading this search effort and sharing some intelligence with the U.S. There have been some problems. There have been some examples where members of this militia have roughed people up, have used some intimidation and strong-arm tactics. There are some senior administration officials who believe this has to happen to make a firm statement to stop chaos, but it's causing some rancor on the ground, that's for sure.

COOPER: Understood. John Diamond, "USA Today," I appreciate you joining us. Thanks.

DIAMOND: You're welcome.

COOPER: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, real life not real enough for you? We'll have a look at the next dose of reality TV -- I just can't keep away from this stuff -- when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Reality TV. Ever wonder why they call it that? Reality? Reality is locking your keys in the car or having to have root canal and not being able to pay for it. Reality is being scratched by the cat while you're trying to give it an insulin injection. That's real.

Cameras following celebrities whose faces are stretched so tight their ears meet in the back while they're eating bugs in a jungle jaunt, that's not real. Now, don't get me wrong; I like some of these shows. Believe me, I do. But if reality TV was once an accurate description of a genre, it certainly is not any longer.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): The reality of Anna Nicole is that she may be able to fill out a blouse, but not a half-hour of television. Nevertheless, people are watching. And they're tuning in to see whether Tina turns her cheek when the bachelor goes in for a smooch. Talk about suspense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn't even turn my head!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn't even turn your head!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Survivors ready! Go!

COOPER: Americans did turn their heads while the war was on. The reality of combat was hard to match. But that's all over, so unreal reality is back on the boob tube.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Talking about my girl, my girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the reality is I've heard better people sing outside of subway stations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. That's fine.

SIMON COWELL, JUDGE, "AMERICAN IDOL": As long as people are watching that's all that matters.

COOPER: The thing is, though, to continue drawing viewers during the May sweeps season, producers have to keep upping the ante or lowering the bar, depending on how you look at it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Monica, just stop and let it through the picture.

COOPER: Which brings us to the former White House intern, who once lamented that she'd been robbed of her privacy, Monica Lewinsky, now hosting FOX's creepy, "Mr. Personality."

MONICA LEWINSKY, REALITY TV HOST: OK, let the masquerade begin.

COOPER: Speaking of cutting loose...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't like anything about it, really.

COOPER: ... ABC is offering "Extreme Makeover," plastic surgery included.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): The warden threw a party in the county jail...

COOPER: And how's this for reality? Five-year-old Easton Hamlin (ph) doing Elvis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): You should've heard those knocked out jailbirds sing. Let's rock.

COOPER: Keep practicing, kid. Maybe one day you'll be an "American Idol."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Everybody in the whole cell block was dancing to the jailhouse rock. COOPER: Ever wish you could watch this stuff all the time? Probably not. But you may soon be able to. Blake Mycoskie, a former contestant on CBS's "The Amazing Race," plans to launch a TV channel devoted to the genre.

BLAKE MYCOSKIE, CO-FOUNDER, REALITY CENTRAL: I realized this reality thing was not just about being on a single show or a single season, but it was a lot larger than that.

COOPER: 24/7 reality TV may be a reality very soon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

All right, so where is reality TV headed? To find out, we're joined by "TV Guide" columnist and senior editor, Max Robins.

Thanks for being here.

J. MAX ROBINS, 'TV GUIDE": Pleasure.

COOPER: How are these shows doing right now?

ROBINS: By and large pretty well. I mean, "Mr. Personality" has been working for FOX. "The Bachelor" still gets ratings. "Idol" is just a phenomenon.

COOPER: Yes.

ROBINS: That's kind of in its own category.

COOPER: I was -- I mean, last week, I think "American Idol" had 21 million people, like, text-messaged in, so that's how many people are text-messaging in their votes. You know, you can only imagine how many people are actually watching this thing.

ROBINS: Absolutely. I mean, they've used it to make text messaging popular here the way it is in Europe.

COOPER: Yes.

ROBINS: I mean, the "Idol" phenomenon is -- I mean, that's an entity unto itself, truly.

COOPER: But there was a time -- I mean, in January a little bit before the war, some of the networks sort of went overboard with it. ABC had on reality shows almost every night. They had "I'm a Celebrity, Get me out of Here" I think on every night of the week for two weeks or something. And it -- I mean, I think ABC executives are now saying, you know, it's a little bit like crack; they went too far with it.

ROBINS: Yes. I mean, some of these shows just aren't good. I mean, "Are you Hot?" I mean, it was disgusting, it was horrible. I mean, it's like any other show, Anderson. I mean, some of the stuff is going to work; some of the stuff is not. What you do find about the shows that really work in this genre are ones like "Survivor," like "Millionaire," if you can remember back that far when that was the big hit. And now, with "Idol," the parents...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBINS: Well, parents and kids watch them together. This is family viewing. I mean, really, the TV landscape has become so much narrow-casting.

COOPER: You mean, parents didn't feel comfortable watching Lorenzo Lamas do a laser pointing at people with their kids?

ROBINS: No, I don't think they -- I don't think that quite worked. But I do think families watch "Idol" together. It's kind of taken the place of the way families used to watch a sitcom like the "Cosby Show."

COOPER: I've got to argue with you on "Are you Hot?" I actually watched it and enjoyed it for this whole shot and the Freudian element of it, watching these beautiful people be crushed and then sort of weep at the end during the credits. You know, it game me -- it filled me somehow with joy.

ROBINS: Well, that's OK.

COOPER: But I think that's just because I'm bitter and isolated.

Why didn't -- there is now this reality TV movie, "The Real Cancun," which is coming out this weekend.

ROBINS: Right.

COOPER: A lot of movie executives were very nervous about it, because if the genre worked on the big screen, it might be bad news for screenwriters and for actors. But it has not pulled in huge numbers.

ROBINS: No, the predictions were that this was going to be a huge hit, especially with young audiences. It didn't work, and I think maybe we've got some hope for humanity now.

COOPER: I don't know. It's May sweeps and the summer are coming. And basically in the summers is when a lot of shows, obviously dramas and sitcoms and stuff are reruns, and that's when there is going to be a whole new slate of reality shows coming on.

ROBINS: Yes, there is more stuff coming. In fact, they've got a spin-off of "Idol" called "American, Jr." Now, what I'm wondering about is if, you know, these poor kids who are going to be contestants, is there going to be some kind of junior Simon? It's just ruining their lives forever? I mean...

COOPER: A really bitter 16 year old, you know, or like Tiffany, who is going to be just angry that her career is down. She's going to be tearing into them. That would actually probably be watchable.

This reality TV channel 24 hours a day, it seems impossible that this thing would work. Do you think it has a possibility? ROBINS: Well, maybe in a universe where most of us have, you know, 100-plus channels now, there is a place for this. Is this going to be some kind of big break-out hit? I don't think so.

COOPER: It's interesting the idea that they're going to be rerunning reality shows, because, I mean, the networks have been loathed to rerun these things, because they tried it with "Survivor." It doesn't really pull in big numbers. Once people have sort of seen it, they get it. They don't want to see it again.

ROBINS: Yes, it doesn’t repeat that well. I mean, I could see something like it would be kind of fun, kind of camp the way the E channel used to do. You know, when the talk shows were all the rage, when there were a million Jerry Springer-type shows out there, and they'd have "Talk Soup." I don't know if reality channel is going to be what works.

COOPER: All right, we'll see. J. Max Robins, appreciate you joining us. Thanks for coming.

ROBINS: Thank you.

COOPER: Well, coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the long overdue "Segment 7," and another in our series of Iraq still life. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, finally from us, another in our series of still photographers working in Iraq. Tonight, Don Bartletti, a photographer with the "L.A. Times."

Now, while covering the war, he got some news of his own, word that he had won the Pulitzer Prize for feature photography. That did not distract him, though, from the story he is trying to capture now: the city of Basra emerging from the wreckage of war.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DON BARTLETTI, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, my name is Don Bartletti. I've been a staff photographer with the "Los Angeles Times" for 20 years. And the most interesting part of and most intensely important thing I've done here is the liberation of Basra, the largest city outside of Baghdad and the stronghold of the Baath Party in this part of the country.

After the British were able to reject the ruling party, almost instantaneously chaos took over. And one particular day was like the Apocalypse. Floating in the salt marshes of Basra were dead bodies of Fedayeen soldiers and Iraqi soldiers, civilians.

And the Iraqi population began looting any government building that wasn't guarded by the British. The British troops that were (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of every major intersection were always an object of curiosity. At one point, there was a blonde-haired British woman on a tank, who men were throwing flowers to, asking for her signature, and women were hoisting their children up to give her a kiss. The FIF, or the Free Iraqi Forces, are a ragtag group of volunteers that are mostly showing up from around the region, actually more interested in the $150 a month wage probably than being an Iraqi freedom fighter. The U.S. Special Forces is in charge of patching together and uniforming and arming this group that may become the new Iraqi army.

We are interested in profiling some of the civilian wounded in this part of Basra. Families of injured people who are coming out and say, we don't have any water, we have to buy our own medicine, we have nothing, and we're suffering inside, and the hospital employees are taking the aid from the Red Crescent home to their families. Why don't we have anything? And the hospital staff claimed they hadn't been paid for a month, and their families were just as needy.

Some of the electrical generating stations were not secured, and looters disabled them. In desperation, citizens were boring holes through the pipes underground. So, several days later when electricity was restored, there was insufficient pressure for people to get water in their homes, so people were trying to grab water in any place that they could. Geysers were shooting up from the underground pipes.

So, this is a fresh fire that filled the air north of Basra. Through the scene came a woman carrying fresh green branches. Since cooking gas is in such short supply, people are frantic and desperate for any wood to burn to cook their meals.

Ironically, this city is undergoing a building boom, because in the chaos without a government people are stealing land, squatting on it, trying to get a structure up before a ruling party takes over. Some of the materials ironically came from a building site where the new Saddam Hussein mosque was to be built here in Basra.

This particular man lost three sons, and he said he cried so much that that's why he lost his sight. The man said, "When Saddam Hussein was in power, we did not dare cry publicly. Now, we can show our tears and not be afraid."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: The photos of Don Bartletti with the "L.A. Times."

That's it for our expanded edition of NEWSNIGHT. I hope you'll be back tomorrow night at 10:00 Eastern. I will. I'll see you then.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





That U.S. Would Let Iraqi People Choose Their Next Government>


Aired April 28, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone, I'm Anderson Cooper in for Aaron Brown.
Today was a very special day for the people of Iraq. Saddam Hussein, if he's alive, turned 66 today. And, for the first time in decades, April 28 was a day the Iraqis didn't have to celebrate. Gone were the clenched smiles, the staged rallies and the fear that if they didn't show up, the secret police would come a-knockin' at their door step.

Some home town supporters in Tikrit did come out to support Saddam Hussein, but they were certainly the exception to the rule. One Iraqi did have a birthday wish of sorts. He wished for the birth of a new Iraq and said this, quote, "We ask God that he never returns because we are happy, and God willing, things will get better."

The push to create a new and a better Iraq was the message today from President Bush speaking to the huge Arab-American community of Dearborn, Michigan. Senior White House correspondent John King is on that. John, the headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the president told those Arab-Americans and a live audience across the Arab world that the United States would let the Iraqi people choose their next government. Yet the president's top aides said one thing this administration will not allow is like a fundamentalist regime like in neighboring Iran. Some say that's a contradiction. The White House Says it's not, but certainly can see it's a reflection of the challenges still to come -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, more on that later, John.

On to the mystery of Saddam Hussein, the birthday boy. Is he dead or alive? David Ensor has the latest on what the U.S. intelligence community is hearing. David, the headline.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well some of what they're hearing, Anderson, comes from their best-known prisoner, Tariq Aziz. He's now talking, saying things about Saddam Hussein, possibly some things about weapons of mass destruction, as well. Useful clues, if he's telling the truth.

COOPER: And a big "if" that is.

We also focus tonight on a different mystery, the hunt for weapons of mass destruction. Nic Robertson has that from outside Biji (ph). Nic, the headline.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron -- Anderson, I'm sorry -- 14 drums found in a field here. Two sets of tests say they contain nerve agent and mustard gas. A third test come up absolutely negative. The big question is, do they contain chemical weapons or merely rocket fuel -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right, back to you shortly, Nic.

Back to the U.S. now and the story that consumed so much of our case last fall, the sniper case. It seems like an awful long time ago but it wasn't. Jeanne Meserve has the latest on Lee Boyd Malvo. Jeanne, the headline.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: During police questioning, Lee Boyd Malvo asked, Do I get to see my attorneys? The defense says that was a request for a lawyer. The prosecution says it was not. The answer will largely determine whether Malvo's alleged confessions will be admitted at trial.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COOPER: And we'll have more on those stories coming up.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, what may well be the most emotional part of rebuilding lower Manhattan. How best to remember the lives lost. We're going to look at the worldwide competition that began today to design the memorial.

And the latest on SARS. Hints of some good news from the World Health Organization for every place except for China, that is. We'll have a report from Beijing and talk about the situation in Canada with the Toronto bureau chief for "TIME" magazine.

Want to begin, however, with the president's trip, his speech to Arab-Americans today in Dearborn was the first in more than two months not given at a military base or a defense contractor. The focus, what happens next in Iraq and here at home as well. And in case the symbolism went unnoticed, the president also spent a portion of his time today getting the endorsement of Detroit automakers for his tax plan. Here aging, CNN's senior White House correspondent John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The president told the audience of Arab- Americans there is no doubt about the bottom line.

BUSH: The Iraqi people would choose their own leaders. And their own government. America has no intention of imposing our form of government or our culture.

KING: But Mr. Bush also appealed for patience and was well aware his speech in Michigan was being carried live across the Arab world by Al-Jazeera, Abu Dhabi TV and other media outlets often critical of U.S. motives in Iraq and across the Middle East.

BUSH: The work of building a new Iraq will take time. That nation's recovering not just from weeks of conflict, but from decades of totalitarian rule.

KING: The White House says Mr. Bush is open to an Islamic democracy in Iraq. But the president says there must be some separation of church and state, and the administration says it will not allow a fundamentalist regime like in neighboring Iran. The president's speech coincided with a major U.S. organized political meeting in Baghdad. The latest step in the difficult process of shaping Iraq's post war politics, and navigating its ethnic and religious rivalries. It also was Saddam Hussein's 66th birthday and Mr. Bush said the former Iraqi leader, not the troops who toppled his regime is to blame for the country's major problems.

BUSH: While the dictator spent billion on weapons, including gold covered AK-47s, nearly a quarter of Iraqi children were born underweight.

KING: The USS Abraham Lincoln is steaming home to San Diego. And will be the stage for a speech on Thursday in which Mr. Bush will say the major combat phase in Iraq is over, and the focus now shifts to security and reconstruction.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: But as he prepares that speech, aides say the president is very mindful of the delicate political situation and of the daunting challenge of reconstruction. So they say his message aboard that aircraft carrier will essentially be this: the United States has won the war, but much more must be done to win the peace, so U.S. troops will stay in Iraq for some time to come -- Anderson.

COOPER: John, we've been hearing this for several days now from a lot of people in the administration. Heard it from President Bush, from Donald Rumsfeld, I think it was yesterday or the day before that, saying that the U.S. will not allow an Iran-style regime in Iraq. Have they given any specifics on how they're going to prevent that from happening?

KING: Well what they say is first you come up with a shape of a new government. Will it be regionally elected? Will it have a strong president or a prime minister?

They say that if there is guarantee that you keep the country as a whole, if there's representatives from the north so you would have Kurds in the government, so that you can prevent it from becoming overwhelmingly Shi'ite. But the Shi'ites are 60 percent of the country and the administration says they are likely to dominate any new democratically government.

That is why the administration is going slow and says before you have elections you must put in civil liberties, civil rights, the rule of law, a judicial system and a police system to guarantee the rights of minorities are protected regardless of who wins the elections. COOPER: And, John, you said the speech was carried life on Al- Jazeera, some other Arab stations. Did the president give interviews to those stations, do you know?

KING: He did not. But the White House did allow Arab reporters into a roundtable, a closed roundtable the president had with the Arab-Americans in which the discussion focused on post-war Iraq and the politics of it.

At one point today no U.S. reporters were going to be allowed in. Because of protests from us here at the White House, one U.S. reporter was allowed in. But the administration deliberately catered to the Arab media here, they knew the audience at home was important, but they believed the audience overseas was much more important on this day.

COOPER: All right, John King at the White House, thanks very much.

It of course remains an open question whether Saddam Hussein lived to see his 66th birthday. One view comes from his former deputy, Tariq Aziz, a man many Americans got to know well over the years. He is, of course, in custody of American interrogators right now.

Now a number of reports had him demanding asylum in Great Britain, even a new identity for what he knows. There's a story Britain's prime minister today called ridiculous. Instead Tariq Aziz appears to be talking like Sammy the Bull even without a deal like Sammy the Bull. Here again CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): Tariq Aziz is telling his interrogators, U.S. officials say, that he saw Saddam Hussein alive in the first few days of April. After the first airstrikes intended to kill him March 19, but before the second attempt on April 7. U.S. Officials say it will take sometime to assess whether Aziz is telling the truth or not.

KENNETH POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: We have to take Tariq Aziz's claims with a few grains of salt. What we have seen from all of the senior Iraqi officials is that as they're going into captivity, they're repeating the regimes propaganda line. In part, I think all of them quite nervous about the possibility of war crimes trials.

ENSOR: For his part, General Tommy Franks is not persuaded by what Aziz said so far about Saddam's possible survival.

GEN. TOMMY FRANKS, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: I have seen nothing over the last week or two that convinces me that he is still alive.

ENSOR: Aziz is also saying according to officials he knows the regime destroyed some weapons of mass destruction or related materials in the period prior to the war when U.S. troops were moving into the region. WOOLSEY: I think that what's important is that a lot of what we were looking for and are still looking for are not big things like nuclear reactors. They're containers of VX or nerve gas or they're small containers of anthrax (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And they could be most anywhere. They could be buried.

ENSOR: Barrels of materials, missiles and gas mask, were found by U.S. special forces in Biji northwest of Baghdad Saturday. Possible mobile labs also found. Two initial tests on the materials suggest the presence of nerve agents, a third test did not, but more testing is underway.

TONY BLAIR, PRIME MINISTER OF BRITAIN: As I say every time, I'm asked I remain confident they will be found.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: The two issues, Saddam Hussein and the weapons, may be linked in this sense. Intelligence officials say that they fear that some of the knowledgeable Iraqi officials that they have in their hands may not be willing to say what they really know about the weapons of mass destruction until they are confident that Saddam Hussein is either captured or killed -- Anderson.

COOPER: David, have you heard anything from sources about whether or not Tariq Aziz is asking for some sort of a deal? I mean there have been all these conflicting reports all weekend long.

ENSOR: I'm told by knowledgeable officials that there were no deals given to him. He may have been asking for things. In fact, I know he was because there was an intermediary, an American in fact, who was acting as an intermediary on his behalf the day before he turned himself in. But I'm told by U.S. officials they promised him nothing in return except an orderly process and any medical attention he needed, he would get. And he does have heart problems. So I assume he's getting medical care.

COOPER: Are interrogators able to make a deal? My understanding, if there is to be a war crimes tribunal down the road, it would probably be an Iraqi affair and is it, therefore, even up to the U.S. to be making deals?

ENSOR: It is not possible for the U.S. to promise anything certain about the treatment that any of the prisoners will get because it hasn't been decided yet. There's a lot of U.S. lawyer time going into this right now, how this should be handled with these senior Iraqi prisoners.

Are they prisoners of war, are they war criminals, or are they something in between?

COOPER: All right, David Ensor, at the Pentagon, thanks very much.

Saddam Hussein may seem like old business by now, but there is new business ahead in Baghdad. How to fashion a new Iraq for mostly broken pieces of the old man.

For that we go to CNN's Karl Penhaul.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraqi looters stare at the barrels of American guns. Captured in downtown Baghdad where they tried to raid a bank. Coalition forces are still battling to restore law and also government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To start our meeting today...

PENHAUL: Across the city in this convention center, 250 Iraqis met with retired U.S. General Jay Garner, Iraq's administrator. The debate, how to create a caretaker administration until elections can be held.

LT. GEN. JAY GARNER (RET.), U.S. CIVIL ADMINISTRATOR FOR IRAQ: Today on the birthday of Saddam Hussein, let's start a Democratic process for the children of Iraq.

PENHAUL: The delegates, returning exiles, tribal leaders, clerics, academics and technical experts. Coalition officials declined to assure a full list of those invited, those who showed up or who the guests represented. Chaotic may be, but then Saddam Hussein's survival was founded on suppression of all political opposition.

MIKE O'BRIEN, BRITISH FOREIGN OFFICE MINISTER: I think in the long term we need to create a process which will generate a much more representative and democratic group of people who can genuinely claim to be speaking for Iraq as a whole.

PENHAUL: Iraqis are divided over the future role for coalition forces. Some see them as peacekeepers. Others, like these protesters from the majority Shi'a Muslim population, want coalition troops out. They say the U.S. and Britain will try to impose leaders on Iraq. Fears echoed by some conference delegates.

SAYED MOUSTAFA AL-QAZWINI, EXILED SHI'A CLERIC: But if there is another influence going on in this conference, and they just want people to endorse certain policies, I don't think that Shi'a population will be happy with that.

PENHAUL: Although Iraqis may have escaped the mandatory birthday celebrations for Saddam Hussein this year, they can't see any reason to party just yet yet.

"Now the picture is not clear. There's no government, no stability."

PENHAUL: The conference ended only with agreement to meet again. No firm timetable for when an interim Iraqi authority could be in place.

Karl Penhaul, CNN, Baghdad. (END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: History has shown that repressive regimes often love to keep records of their crimes. Nazis did. So did the (UNINTELLIGIBLE), they even took pictures. The Ba'athists it seems were no different. But of all the records they kept and new ones are being discovered ever day, an inventory of bugs and chemicals has yet to materialize. The search for weapons of mass destruction has been a story of soldiers stumbling onto something that might or might not be the 55 gallon smoking drum.

Here's again CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Neatly stacked on a barren hill side, the U.S. military's latest suspected chemical weapons find. Already the first results being called into question. First Lieutenant Phipps found what she found when she got to the site.

1st LT. VALERIE PHIPPS, U.S. ARMY: This area here is the area that we were testing. The barrel that stands straight up is the one we opened.

ROBERTSON: Fourteen, 55-gallon drums in all out in the fields, unlike other sites already investigated, not an industrial plant.

PHIPPS: We got to the barrels. The one barrel we decided to open was giving us seven bars of G nerve on our (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ROBERTSON: Almost full scale reading, indicating the deadly nerve agent.

PHIPPS: Once we opened it, we tested the liquid on M8 paper and M9 paper, which showed blister.

ROBERTSON: A lethal blistering agent, later test showed could be mustard gas. Since then, the 1st 10th Calvary have been guarding the site while waiting for more advance test results. The first from a sensitive site team found close a match to results of Lieutenant Phipps. But the second test follow up test by a mobile exploitation team came up with negative results, suggesting the liquid may be nothing more than rocket fuel. And there were missiles dug into the hillside close to the chemical drums. But adding to the questions about this site, two mobile laboratories. Nothing in them makes their use easy to interpret.

(on camera): Meters showing thousands, hundreds, tens and units. On the back hall a table of operation, calibration zero setting, metering of test and calibration doses. Here UNIDENTIFIED MALE: diagram charts, an electrical diagram chart. And on the back a correction table in English. On the bottom, dose settings, prescribed dose, prescribed dose with Algebraic corrections. But difficult the know what this vehicle was designed to do.

(voice-over): Produce chemical weapons or missile propellant? When the complete results come back from the chemicals tested here, they'll also be a better indication of what these labs were used for. For now it seems the search for proof to support the premise for war that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction will have to go on.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: Now the samples that have been sent away for analysis could be yielding results as early as this morning. However it still may take a few more days -- Anderson.

COOPER: Nic, there's been talk about whether or not U.N. weapons inspectors should be allowed back into the country to search out. There's been a lot of talk about the quality of the inspectors who are there now, the U.S. inspectors or at least the soldiers searching for these weapons.

The group who found this, and the soldiers who are there now, are they part of a specialized unit of any kind?

ROBERTSON: Three different teams have worked on this particular site. It was initially on a tip that special forces got from Iraqi citizens saying that they believe chemical weapons were here. What happened then, the units that are operating in this area sent in their own Fox (ph) Teams. These are the teams designated out in the field to essentially look for protection from the troops. Their testing is really designed to make sure in battlefield conditions any chemical weapons are detected early. Their test came back positive. A second team went in, a sensitive site team, their tests came back positive. Then the mobile exploitation team, and higher level team, their results came back negative so far.

And they are the most senior team to have looked at this site. What is clear here is there are a lot of different sites to be looked at in the daily work for the Foxs teams for the troops that are based here. They're busy every day looking at sites, most of those sites come up negative. The sensitive site teams, the exploitation site teams, they're only tasked when something is already been found. So many sites are now being pointed out by Iraqi citizens, they're very stretched. There are not many of these teams. They're on the go all the time. So all the people, even the soldier here, are asking how come if we get positive results, how come the other teams are getting negatives?

COOPER: Good question. All right, Nic Robertson, thanks very much.

Coming up, NEWSNIGHT, a lot ahead.

The Democrats are talking about universal health care again. The question, is anybody listening? We'll talk with Dick Gephardt, who says he has a plan and a plan to pay for it.

Also, the search begins for a person to design the memorial at ground zero in New York. You're watching NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(AUDIO/VIDEO GAP)

COOPER: .. we want to pick up the discussion with one of the Democratic candidates who hopes to defeat him in 2004. Our guest wants to scrap the tax cut altogether and use the money for health insurance instead. Richard Gephardt, congressman of Missouri, formerly House minority leader and currently an candidate for the Democratic presidential nomination in 2004.

Welcome to NEWSNIGHT.

(CROSSTALK)

COOPER: Let's talk about this proposal a little bit. It's essentially, as I understand it, employer tax credits. You want every company to offer their workers health insurance and basically the government will supplement the cost, at least 60 percent of it.

REP. RICHARD GEPHARDT (D-MO), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Roughly 60 percent of their cost of the health care. And it applies to part-time workers and retired workers. I also give 60 percent of the cost of health care to state and local governments. So we try to treat everybody fairly and evenly, something that we've had trouble with in the past.

COOPER: It's not just that. There's also additional supplements for low-income people, is that right?

GEPHARDT: Right. We try to help low-income workers who are 200 percent of poverty or below. We help them with their 40 percent of the share if their employer doesn't add anything to the 60 percent.

And we try to do something with unemployed workers through COBRA and people who lose their job after age 55 and Medicare. It's -- this is national health care through the present system. We don't change the way health care is delivered and who pays for it.

COOPER: Right, avoiding problems that the Clinton proposals had several years ago.

GEPHARDT: Right.

COOPER: Of course, the question of how is it paid for, where does the money come from and how much does this cost is on everyone's minds. The figures you have been releasing, $210 billion in the first year alone, saying it's going to go up a lot after that. Staggering sums of money. Where does the money come from?

GEPHARDT: Health care is expensive but a lack of health care is even more expensive. And what I want to say to people is, if you like the Bush tax cuts, you think that's really been good for you, then stick with that. But if you want to go in a different direction and you want to solve this problem and frankly, put more money in everybody's pocket, every month, every year than the Bush tax cuts, then come with me. This is a way to solve a problem that's bedeviled this country for forever.

COOPER: But the money comes from, just talking nuts and bolts, the money comes basically from repealing the tax cut of 2001, the Bush cut, and also defeating the changes, the dividends this year?

GEPHARDT: Right. And if this passes and I'm president, I would go to Congress and ask for them to put aside all of the Bush tax cuts, whatever's on the books by that time, and use the money rather for this. Which I think is more stimulative of the economy, builds more jobs, puts more money in people's pockets.

COOPER: But isn't a repeal of a tax cut the same thing as a tax increase?

GEPHARDT: Not if you're substituting a tax cut of equal measure that has more stimulative quality than what the president's plan does.

COOPER: There's some small business owners and leaders who say this is just bad for small businesses. It puts too much, you know, onus on them.

GEPHARDT: I think people who run these organizations ought to go out and talk to the small business people who deal with this every day. I've talked to a lot of them across the country. They are excited about getting real help from the government to help them be able to offer this plan.

Most employers want health care for their employees. They have a more productive employee, a more loyal employee. And from the employee's viewpoint, this can cut their cost in health care.

COOPER: What about deficits? This implies deficit spending. Have you given up the idea of balancing a budget?

GEPHARDT: Well first of all, I think my plan is more stimulative. I think the only way we're really going to balance the budget is to get the economy to go again. That's what happened in the late '90s. So I think my plan is better to get the deficit down because we'll get the economy moving.

But the other point I'll make is if George Bush gets reelected he's going to keep his tax cuts in place. He's not going to deal with the deficit. I will have ways of dealing with the deficit other than dealing with taxes. I will have other tax reform proposals. I will stimulate the economy more than he does. I think we can get this economy going. That's the best way to get rid of the deficit.

COOPER: Fellow Democrat Howard Dean, also presidential candidate in the next election, says that this proposal is about politics, it's not practical. Basically this is a way for you to separate yourself from the Democratic pack even though politically it doesn't really have a chance. Or the at very best it has an uphill battle ahead of it.

GEPHARDT: This is something that I have thought about, worried about, cared about for over 20 years. I have been involved in every health care fight in the Congress in the last 25 years.

I have a son who, when he was 2, had cancer. They said it was terminal. We got him through it, through great doctors and nurses and the grace of God. I met a lot of parents at the time whose kids had cancer, didn't have health insurance.

This is a moral issue as well as an economic issue. We have to do this. We have to rationalize this system, we have to help all of our people get health care.

COOPER: All right, Representative Gephardt, thanks very much for being with us.

GEPHARDT: Thank you.

COOPER: All right, nice to meet you.

We'll be right back. A lot more ahead on NEWSNIGHT. A competition began today, competition perhaps not the most appropriate way to describe it. That's what it is. A competition to see who will design the memorial at Ground Zero. We already know what buildings will rise where the Twin Towers used to be. The question now to be answered, how nestled among the new buildings on a few acres of that hallowed ground will the nearly 3,000 people who died there will be remembered. Here's CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are the people who will decide what the World Trade Center memorial will look like, 13 jurors selected to chose the winning design -- architects, academics, artists and Paula Grant Berry, who lost her husband on September 11.

PAULA GRANT BERRY, WTC MEMORIAL JUROR: We must never lose sight of why we're doing this and who we're doing it for. Magnificent people died and we must be magnificent in how we honor them. We must be humble, even noble. We must try to make them proud.

CARROLL: Anyone from anywhere can enter. Entrants, who will be kept anonymous to the jury, need only be 18 or older and pay a $25 fee. The design should fit on a four and a half acre section of the site and take into account the winning site design by architect Daniel Liebeskind.

ANITA CONTINI, TOWER MANHATTAN DEVELOPMENT COMP.: The memorial guidelines are intentionally flexible, leaving open the widest possibilities for design proposals from individuals or teams.

CARROLL (on camera): Jurors say the winning design will have to stitch together a number of complex ideas. It will have to remember those who lost their lives here at the site while at the same time it will have to symbolize renewal.

(voice-over): One juror is Maya Lin, who changed the concept of what a memorial could look like. Her abstract wall of names was chosen for the Vietnam Memorial in Washington, D.C. in 1981 when she was an unknown 21-year-old architecture student.

MAYA LIN, WTC MEMORIAL JUROR: You enter a competition not necessarily to win, but to say what you truly believe needs to be done there. I don't believe you try to second guess any jury.

CARROLL: Five finalists will be chosen in September, the winner in October. The jury could chose a piece of art to stand here or architecture or a combination of both. Whatever it is, jurors say the process must produce a memorial like no other.

Jason Carroll, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well coming up on NEWSNIGHT the latest new headlines. And after that the latest on the Washington sniper case. Chilling details from the interrogation of the teenager arrested in the case.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: We want to bring you up to date now on the latest on the sniper case and a hearing involving statements made by teenage suspect Lee Boyd Malvo after his arrest.

Now, it's easy to let emotions get in the way of this story. The details coming out of the Malvo interrogations are shocking, to say the least. Prosecutors say he admitted to playing a role in many of the shootings and seemed to enjoy it, in fact. But this is a matter of law, not of emotions. The question: Was the interrogation done by the book, and, if not, should the statements be thrown out?

Here's CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE (voice-over): The interrogation is key. In it, prosecutors say, Malvo admits to several of the sniper shootings. In court Monday, one of his interrogators provided new details about exactly what Malvo allegedly said.

Fairfax County detective June Boyle testified that Malvo laughed as he described the shooting of James Sonny Buchanan, saying that, when Buchanan fell, the lawn mower he had been using kept rolling; also more about a previously unexplained shooting the first night of the sniper spree at a Michaels craft store. No one was hit, but investigators say Malvo told them the intended target was a child who was skipping outside. Boyle said Malvo told her, his bullet there came so close -- quote -- "I might have even parted his hair."

And when Malvo was asked about where he shot Linda Franklin, the FBI analyst gunned down in a Home Depot parking lot, Boyle says Malvo chuckled as he held his finger to his head.

But was the interrogation legal? Detective Boyle testified that she and Malvo chatted casually for several hours. At one point Malvo did ask, "Do I get to see my attorney?" Boyle answered yes. And Malvo said his lawyers had advised him not to talk to police until they got there. That, according to Boyle, was not a formal request to see a lawyer. But, she said, when talk veered toward Malvo's alleged crimes, she did read him his rights and asked four times if he wanted to see a lawyer. She says Malvo answered no, adding, "If I don't want to answer, I won't."

Several lawyers and a court-appointed guardian testified that they tried to stop any questioning of Malvo, but prosecutors said that, at the time, none of them had the legal standing to do so. The final decision will be up to the judge, who will hear more testimony Tuesday, before deciding whether the interrogation can be admitted at trial.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Fairfax, Virginia.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, this next story might as well be a story out of one those novels you buy just before you board a flight and then leave behind when you land, pulp fiction acceptable for passing the time, but too sordid and steamy to take home. This ought to be fiction, too, given that it's about a basement dungeon and women held captive. But it is not fiction.

Here's the report from Jamie Colby on the charges against a man in custody in Upstate New York.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE COLBY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is John Jamelske, a 67-year-old retired handyman who police say is a serial rapist with a torture chamber under his house, where he kept his victims for periods ranging from two months to two years.

So far, Jamelske has been charged with kidnapping and raping only his latest alleged victim, a 16-year-old whose escape three weeks ago led to Jamelske's arrest. In a statement to the county sheriff, the teenager said...

KEVIN WALSH, ONONDAGA COUNTY SHERIFF: "I cried and I prayed every day of captivity. I never cried in front of him again after he slapped me so hard he injured my ear." She's still deaf in that ear. "I did everything he asked, hoping that he would release me."

COLBY: Two other teenagers and a woman in her mid-20s claimed Jamelske held them, too. And Monday, police said they've identified a fifth alleged victim, a woman in her 50s who claimed she was held for 10 months.

WALSH: She was raped and tortured in his dungeon, her phrase. And that occurred about five years ago.

COLBY: This woman, now 28, held two years ago, told her story to CNN affiliate WSTM.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I felt -- basically felt like an animal just rotting away, like some sex animal for his pleasure.

COLBY: The women told police they were forced to keep diaries of their physical activity.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was supposed to have sex with him every day. And if I didn't have sex with him every day, then that would add on to the time that I was going to be there.

COLBY: In a statement obtained by CNN, Jamelske told police his relationship with the 16-year-old was consensual and -- quote -- "fun," and that he thought she was 18. "We are also planning on going to my 50th high school reunion together. I can't wait. Everyone's going to be like: 'Wow, John, look at you two. That's great.' I have no intentions of marrying her. I'm just going to have as much fun as I can. If it only last two or three years, that's fine."

As police piece together the five tales of torture, they are asking any other women who say they were victims of Jamelske to come forward.

(on camera): Two of the alleged victims filed police reports after their ordeal. Investigators admit they were never fully pursued. Jamelske is being held without bail. His attorney tells CNN he will ask a judge for his client to submit to a psychiatric evaluation.

Jamie Colby, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the latest on SARS, as the Chinese prepare for the possibility that thousands more people may have to be quarantined.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Coming up next on NEWSNIGHT: the mistakes made in the battle against SARS.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: There was an update on SARS today from the World Health Organization. The WHO said that the worst could be over in places that have been hard-hit, except for China, that is.

Now, if you look at the glass half full, that sounds like good news. If you're a glass-half-empty type, you may remember that about one in five people on the planet live in China. Today, in China, there was one thing beyond interpretation. At least eight more people died there.

More from CNN's Jaime FlorCruz in Beijing.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAIME FLORCRUZ, CNN BUREAU CHIEF, BEIJING (voice-over): Another ambulance streaming into a Beijing hospital designated for SARS treatment -- a sight becoming all too common in the Chinese capital. Responding to the emergency, China is taking draconian measures. Hospitals, college dormitories, and a construction site have been closed for mass quarantine. Thousands of cinemas, karaoke bars, and other entertainment venues have also been closed.

ALAN SCHNUR, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION: The SARS virus spreads so easily, you have to be 300% ready. So I think to go a bit beyond what one thinks is necessary for SARS is not a bad thing.

FLORCRUZ: Still, Beijing's airport and train stations are jammed with fleeing migrant workers, students, and tourists -- despite attempts to restrict travel. Some areas have set up roadblocks to screen travelers coming in. Inside the city, passengers of public transport have dropped off by half.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We should just try our best to protect ourselves. I think the government will find a solution soon, so we don't have to overreact worrying about this.

FLORCRUZ: In city streets, traffic has been unusually light as more people stay in. Business establishments hung signs of temporary closures. Beijing is preparing for the worst. In the suburbs, a new quarantine area is being finished to accommodate more than 1,000 SARS patients. But experts say they have little idea of when or where the city's SARS cases are occurring.

SCHNUR: We need now to have the disease data to evaluate what the effect of these measures so we can modify them or continue them as required.

FLORCRUZ: Lack of information they say, may be prompting panic.

(on camera) After months of foot-dragging and cover-ups, China is now reporting SARS cases more openly. But unless they share all the crucial data with the outside world, SARS will continue to spread while tourists and residents continue to leave.

Jaime FlorCruz, CNN, Beijing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: We go to Canada now, where the face masks are beginning to lift, literally. Workers at one major hospital got the green light, after many weeks, to remove their masks in some parts of the building. One doctor said -- quote -- "It is like a carnival around here."

Meanwhile, Canadian officials are pushing hard on the World Health Organization to end their travel warning on Toronto, a lot to talk about with Steven Frank, the Toronto bureau chief for "TIME" magazine.

Steven, thanks for being with us.

STEVEN FRANK, "TIME": Thank you. COOPER: Toronto is a city with first-class medicine, first-class hospitals. How could this thing have gotten so out of control?

FRANK: Well, the main thing to remember is that this was a very difficult situation.

A man showed up with symptoms to an unknown disease, or practically unknown disease, in a suburban hospital and officials had to try and figure out what was going on. It took a while. It took at least a day before he was isolated. And it took six days before they could even figure out it was SARS. This is before the World Health Organization put out their first major SARS alert. And the man also had no obvious connection to Hong Kong, at least immediately.

COOPER: And I read the account that you wrote on this in "TIME" magazine. And it is fascinating.

Basically, he had gotten it from his mother, who had died. His symptoms came up, I think, the day before she died. And then you trace this thing step by step. And it's just frightening. He was put in the hospital. The man he was in the hospital -- or the two people that he was in the hospital room with got it. They gave it to their family members. And then, when they came to visit the family, they gave it to other people literally in the waiting room. This thing just spread -- it's an extraordinary story on how it spread.

FRANK: Right.

The officials isolated the man and his family within a day, finally when they realized -- they diagnosed it as T.B. What they did not do is isolate any of the contacts this man may have had when he had been in the hospital for 24 hours. Should they have? Well, it's very difficult to say, because they did not know how infectious he was. So I think that's the first problem that people are going to have to look at in the aftermath of this: How do we get more information to front-line health workers?

COOPER: There was a city -- in Vancouver, I believe, a man was isolated, whereas in Toronto, he was not. Why the difference?

FRANK: Well, that's why I say this was a difficult problem, but it was not an impossible problem to solve.

The Vancouver situation was, the man arrived from the airport, basically. He went to his doctor. His doctor sent him right on to an emergency ward at Vancouver General Hospital. They looked at the situation and isolated him within two hours, partly, they say, because they were anticipating the possibility of some strange virus from Asia.

Now, whether the Toronto people had the same information , it's hard to say. It doesn't seem that they did.

COOPER: There's been some good news, in that I think Vietnam is about to be taken off the list by the WHO because they've had no new cases, I think it's since April 8. So they've sort of reached the threshold.

But the bad news is that there are now I think five cases -- or at least five confirmed cases in India. What does the experience in Toronto tell you about what needs to be done early on and also how quickly this thing can spread? If it can spread this quickly in Toronto based on this one man going into a hospital, what could happen in India with five cases where health care certainly is nowhere near the level of Toronto?

FRANK: Well, that's the scary part. Toronto, like you say, is as advanced as, say, anywhere in the world in terms of medicine.

I think the point is to act as quickly and as cautiously as possible. And there's -- you have to just err on the side of caution and try and follow every step of the way on which contact could have been made.

COOPER: I know some Asian countries have begun infrared screening of passengers as they get off planes entering the country. Some people don't even know they're being screened. It's basically just a camera. Is it true that, in Toronto, they're going to start doing that? I had a heard a report of that.

FRANK: Anne McLellan, the health minister, announced today that she's going to look into it.

COOPER: Going to look into it, but not necessarily go ahead and do it?

FRANK: It sounds like they're going to go ahead, as far I could tell.

COOPER: All right, Steven Frank, "TIME" magazine, it was a fascinating piece. I appreciate you joining us. Thanks.

FRANK: Thank you.

COOPER: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: a singer whose signature songs were written a half-century before he was born. He is 19 years old and he is on the rise in the music business -- coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: The latest now on a regular segment here on NEWSNIGHT, one that we call "On the Rise," a look at young up-and-comers; tonight, one voice of a new generation, one that also brings alive the memory of an old generation.

And what a voice it is. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ladies and gentlemen, the world-famous Oak Room is proud to present Peter Cincotti.

PETER CINCOTTI, MUSICIAN (singing): Lock the door and stop complaining

I'm a jazz piano player and singer. I started playing piano when I was 3, playing piano when I was 3. And some of my biggest influences when I was about 5 years old were boogie-woogie piano players like Jerry Lee Lewis, that kind of style. Around like 12 or 13, I started playing clubs here in the city. It was cool. I mean, I wasn't technically allowed to set foot in the place, because I wasn't legal. I'm still not.

And most of the time, I don't get nervous. I just kind of think about the music. And as soon as I hit the piano, I'm in another world. And the audience becomes a separate thing. As much as I want to communicate with them -- and I talk to them and try and interact.

The word is the.

(LAUGHTER)

P. CINCOTTI: Before I went in to record the CD, I met with Phil Ramone a number of times. We both decided that it had to be -- no matter what it was, it had to be honest and it had to be musically representative of where I am right now at 19.

PHIL RAMONE, PRODUCER: The most important thing is the genuineness. He's totally what you see is what you get.

CINCOTTI (singing): Like a flower bending in the breeze.

I started writing when I was 9. And then, one day, I just asked my mother if she would write lyrics. Since then, we've been writing music together. I wrote the music and she would write the lyrics.

CYNTHIA CINCOTTI, PETER'S MOTHER: This past year, he started to write the lyrics himself, which was very exciting for him, because he never thought he would do the lyrics. He was always musical, starting that I noticed was age 3.

P. CINCOTTI: If you practice enough with a metronome at certain tempo, right, like this, it's like playing with a band.

(singing): Are you the one to steal my heart completely?

We're in my room now at home in Manhattan, where I grew up. Ella Fitzgerald, a lot of Nat King Cole. This is all Sinatra, Glenn Gould. Don't show "The Cliff Notes." Some family friends. Sammy Davis Jr. This was one with me and Tony Bennett, and me and Jennifer Love Hewitt. That, never mind.

(singing): I could show the world how to smile.

My father, he was a very important person to me. When he first passed away, I remember I wrote songs right after. And I guess it was kind of an outlet for me. But he's a big part of who I am. Anything I do, he's kind of a part of.

I think, to a certain extent, you're a product of your influences. And then there's the other half of it, that you try and say something new, be innovative. That's what jazz to me mean. My focus is just to play for people who want to listen, whether they're young, whether they're old. I'd love to have everybody as an audience. Hopefully, one day, maybe I will.

(singing): I love being here with you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Nineteen years old. Man, makes me feel old.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: our bonus half-hour. We'll begin with reports of a pledge to give up nukes by North Koreans. We'll tell you what they want in return.

That's after a break and the latest news headlines.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: We move on now to the problem of North Korea, and what a problem it is. Maybe we should call it the "dilemma of North Korea" or perhaps the "enigma," or maybe the "conundrum." There are a lot of ways to look at it, even in Washington.

Here's a report from CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only days after President Bush warned North Korea's President Kim Jong Il against nuclear blackmail, Secretary of State Powell sounded a slightly less ominous note.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: They did put forward a plan that would ultimately deal with their nuclear capability and their missile activities. But they, of course, expect something considerable in return.

KOPPEL: U.S. officials tell CNN during last week's talks in Beijing, North Korea said it expected Washington to make the first move, demanding, among other things, written assurances the U.S. would not attack. But even then, North Korea's envoy said his government would only consider taking reciprocal steps, like dismantling its nuclear program, ending missile tests and permitting weapons inspectors to return.

During the Beijing talks, North Korea also admitted, for first time, it had one nuclear bomb, but with talks ongoing this week between North and South Korea, Secretary Powell dismissed reports suggesting Pyongyang had explicitly threatened to test it.

POWELL: They never used the word "test." They said that it is a kind of capability that one can display in one way or another.

KOPPEL (on camera): The Bush administration is not of one mind as to exactly what North Korea meant by its nuclear declaration last week. Some believe it could be an opening bid at the start of a lengthy negotiation, while others may seize upon it as yet another reason to get even tougher.

Andrea Koppel, CNN, at the State Department.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: Well, Secretary of State Colin Powell plans to travel to the Middle East, perhaps as early as a few days from now. Now, his itinerary is expected to include Israel, as well as the Palestinian territories, but where he goes, when he goes and who he talks to may hinge on both sides meeting a number of tough challenges.

Here is CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first challenge for Palestinian prime minister-designate Abu Mazen: winning support of his cabinet in the Palestinian parliament. Approval is likely but not guaranteed, Palestinian observers say, due to a perception on the Palestinian street that Abu Mazen is the favorite of the Americans and the Israelis, who want to see Yasser Arafat sidelined.

MAHDI ABDUL HADI, PALESTINIAN ACADEMIC SOCIETY FOR THE STUDY OF INT'L. AFFAIRS: Definitely people are angry, because the legitimacy should come from the people. Now, Abu Mazen has to fight to get his legitimacy, his endorsement from the people.

WALLACE: In an effort to boost his popular support, Abu Mazen said he would not travel abroad to meet international leaders, including U.S. President Bush, until Israel lifts its current travel ban on the Palestinian president. But that is unlikely to happen anytime soon, says his prominent Israeli columnist.

DANNY RUBINSTEIN, "NA'ARETZ" COLUMNIST: In Israel, the Israeli politicians put all the blame of the intifada on one person, on Arafat. So, Arafat shouldn’t expect any kind of, you know, benefits from the Abu Mazen nomination.

WALLACE: In fact, Prime Minister Sharon wants to isolate the Palestinian president, encouraging diplomats not to meet with him, and choosing not to make room on his schedule to see those who do. Israel faces real challenges as well, such as pressure from the United States to take steps to bolster the peace process, including pulling Israeli troops out of Palestinian towns, releasing Palestinian prisoners and easing travel restrictions on the Palestinian people.

But the issue taking center stage: the expected release soon after Abu Mazen's cabinet is ratified of the so-called Mideast road map, drafted by the United States, the European Union, Russia and the U.N. in December.

(on camera): The road map is likely to face a very bumpy path with both sides already expressing different interpretations about what exactly should happen next.

(voice-over): The Palestinians say the road map should be implemented immediately, but Israelis want to see more than a dozen changes made, and before anything, a crackdown on radical Palestinian groups responsible for attacks against Israel.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER: We reported earlier tonight on what Tariq Aziz might be telling his interrogators. We want to dig a little deeper into this subject now with John Diamond, who is working the story for "USA Today." Mr. Diamond comes to us tonight from Washington.

Thanks a lot for being on the program, John. Appreciate it.

JOHN DIAMOND, "USA TODAY": You're welcome.

COOPER: What are you hearing that Aziz is saying?

DIAMOND: Aziz told interrogators that he had seen Saddam after the bombings, the two bombings -- the one that opened the war and the one in the first week of April. U.S. officials are not sure whether they can believe what he is saying, because they've also caught him in some lies, both in interrogations and then, of course, in some of the statements he was making before the fall of the regime.

So, there is some uncertainty, although at this point senior officials don't see necessarily a reason for him to lie about Saddam still being alive. There might be a motivation for regime officials to claim that he's dead to give him a chance to regroup perhaps and stage a comeback, but it's one additional piece of evidence from one of the few senior Iraqis who might be in a position to know.

COOPER: I'm not surprised to hear that he was lying before the regime fell. Are you hearing any details on what U.S. officials believe he is lying about now, or what they are pretty sure he is lying about now?

DIAMOND: The senior -- well, it's unclear but because a full debrief on the interrogation has not been made public, but several senior Iraqis, including Aziz, are denying the existence of weapons of mass destruction. Again, this is a problematic issue for the Bush administration. It would be difficult to imagine these officials denying their existence knowing that it could be in a matter of days they could be found by the coalition. So -- but the Bush administration is firm in its belief that these weapons exist.

COOPER: Are there U.S. officials who believe that these Iraqis who are in custody may be holding on to information, hoping to get some sort of negotiation going?

DIAMOND: That's right. Another problematical issue there, too. Yes, senior Pentagon officials say that they perhaps are not getting the best information available, because they want to hold that out for a deal, some sort of leniency. The problem is, is that it may end up being Iraqi tribunals, not American tribunals, which decide their fate. So, the U.S. may not be in a position to cut deals with them.

COOPER: Is anyone putting great significance on the fact that Saddam Hussein's birthday passed relatively without any huge markings, without any big violence? There was a slight marking I think in Tikrit.

DIAMOND: Yes.

COOPER: But are they seeing significance in that fact?

DIAMOND: Yes, the 28th was traditionally a major Iraqi holiday, of course, under Saddam's regime. And there was some feeling that it might be a day for remaining loyalists to stage some sort of coordinated attacks of some kind to make a statement that elements of the regime are still around, still capable of inflicting damage.

Nothing really significant happened today. And so, there is some relief that with the passing of that day, there will be an increasing confidence among the Iraqi people -- and this is a key issue for the administration -- that whether or not Saddam lives, his regime is gone.

COOPER: And though no one seems clear on whether or not he is alive or dead, you don't hear many people talking these days, at least I haven't heard about him being anywhere but in Iraq dead or alive.

DIAMOND: That's right. The Bush administration believes he's inside Iraq. There have been rumors flying around. It's sort of like Hitler after World War II, everyone seems to have seen him and everyone seems to have a theory. There are theories that he went off to Russia, theories he went to Libya, Syria -- you name it -- Belarus. But, no, the best that U.S. intelligence believes is that he is inside Iraq, either dead or alive.

COOPER: We've heard a lot from Ahmad Chalabi, the Iraqi opposition figure, talking about that his organization has been tracking Saddam. They are just a day behind here and there. You know, they have all of this information. They're trying to get him. Are those credible? I mean, do people within the administration, people you are talking to, do they buy any of that?

DIAMOND: Well, certainly Chalabi has now a substantial militia on the ground. It's unclear to me how much credibility U.S. officials are giving that, because U.S. officials are saying they simply don't know. So, they're not backing up what Chalabi is saying, that's for sure.

And Chalabi, of course, has an interest in sort of making a statement that his people are the ones rounding up the bad guys, if you will, and using that effort to help give his group legitimacy, which is very much an open question, because, of course, the Iraqi National Congress, Chalabi's group, has been in existence outside of Iraq for a couple of generations now.

COOPER: Yes.

DIAMOND: And there are people in Iraq who have been suffering under Saddam who aren't sure they are willing to give up power to that particular group.

COOPER: Yes, and certainly if Saddam was alive and he was caught by Chalabi, it would be a big boost to Chalabi's credibility.

Just very briefly, though, you talked about Chalabi's militia. These are basically these Free Iraqi Forces. And the U.S. is kind of using them for security on the ground, aren't they?

DIAMOND: They are, and there are bits of problems there. It appears that there is some intelligence-sharing going on. It may well be that the Bush administration would like Chalabi's people to find some of the regime's senior leaders, because, of course, there are Bush administration officials that have confidence in Chalabi, especially at the Pentagon.

But, yes, his group is leading -- you know, leading this search effort and sharing some intelligence with the U.S. There have been some problems. There have been some examples where members of this militia have roughed people up, have used some intimidation and strong-arm tactics. There are some senior administration officials who believe this has to happen to make a firm statement to stop chaos, but it's causing some rancor on the ground, that's for sure.

COOPER: Understood. John Diamond, "USA Today," I appreciate you joining us. Thanks.

DIAMOND: You're welcome.

COOPER: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, real life not real enough for you? We'll have a look at the next dose of reality TV -- I just can't keep away from this stuff -- when we return.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Reality TV. Ever wonder why they call it that? Reality? Reality is locking your keys in the car or having to have root canal and not being able to pay for it. Reality is being scratched by the cat while you're trying to give it an insulin injection. That's real.

Cameras following celebrities whose faces are stretched so tight their ears meet in the back while they're eating bugs in a jungle jaunt, that's not real. Now, don't get me wrong; I like some of these shows. Believe me, I do. But if reality TV was once an accurate description of a genre, it certainly is not any longer.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

COOPER (voice-over): The reality of Anna Nicole is that she may be able to fill out a blouse, but not a half-hour of television. Nevertheless, people are watching. And they're tuning in to see whether Tina turns her cheek when the bachelor goes in for a smooch. Talk about suspense.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I didn't even turn my head!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn't even turn your head!

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Survivors ready! Go!

COOPER: Americans did turn their heads while the war was on. The reality of combat was hard to match. But that's all over, so unreal reality is back on the boob tube.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Talking about my girl, my girl.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the reality is I've heard better people sing outside of subway stations.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. That's fine.

SIMON COWELL, JUDGE, "AMERICAN IDOL": As long as people are watching that's all that matters.

COOPER: The thing is, though, to continue drawing viewers during the May sweeps season, producers have to keep upping the ante or lowering the bar, depending on how you look at it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Monica, just stop and let it through the picture.

COOPER: Which brings us to the former White House intern, who once lamented that she'd been robbed of her privacy, Monica Lewinsky, now hosting FOX's creepy, "Mr. Personality."

MONICA LEWINSKY, REALITY TV HOST: OK, let the masquerade begin.

COOPER: Speaking of cutting loose...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't like anything about it, really.

COOPER: ... ABC is offering "Extreme Makeover," plastic surgery included.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): The warden threw a party in the county jail...

COOPER: And how's this for reality? Five-year-old Easton Hamlin (ph) doing Elvis.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): You should've heard those knocked out jailbirds sing. Let's rock.

COOPER: Keep practicing, kid. Maybe one day you'll be an "American Idol."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): Everybody in the whole cell block was dancing to the jailhouse rock. COOPER: Ever wish you could watch this stuff all the time? Probably not. But you may soon be able to. Blake Mycoskie, a former contestant on CBS's "The Amazing Race," plans to launch a TV channel devoted to the genre.

BLAKE MYCOSKIE, CO-FOUNDER, REALITY CENTRAL: I realized this reality thing was not just about being on a single show or a single season, but it was a lot larger than that.

COOPER: 24/7 reality TV may be a reality very soon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

All right, so where is reality TV headed? To find out, we're joined by "TV Guide" columnist and senior editor, Max Robins.

Thanks for being here.

J. MAX ROBINS, 'TV GUIDE": Pleasure.

COOPER: How are these shows doing right now?

ROBINS: By and large pretty well. I mean, "Mr. Personality" has been working for FOX. "The Bachelor" still gets ratings. "Idol" is just a phenomenon.

COOPER: Yes.

ROBINS: That's kind of in its own category.

COOPER: I was -- I mean, last week, I think "American Idol" had 21 million people, like, text-messaged in, so that's how many people are text-messaging in their votes. You know, you can only imagine how many people are actually watching this thing.

ROBINS: Absolutely. I mean, they've used it to make text messaging popular here the way it is in Europe.

COOPER: Yes.

ROBINS: I mean, the "Idol" phenomenon is -- I mean, that's an entity unto itself, truly.

COOPER: But there was a time -- I mean, in January a little bit before the war, some of the networks sort of went overboard with it. ABC had on reality shows almost every night. They had "I'm a Celebrity, Get me out of Here" I think on every night of the week for two weeks or something. And it -- I mean, I think ABC executives are now saying, you know, it's a little bit like crack; they went too far with it.

ROBINS: Yes. I mean, some of these shows just aren't good. I mean, "Are you Hot?" I mean, it was disgusting, it was horrible. I mean, it's like any other show, Anderson. I mean, some of the stuff is going to work; some of the stuff is not. What you do find about the shows that really work in this genre are ones like "Survivor," like "Millionaire," if you can remember back that far when that was the big hit. And now, with "Idol," the parents...

(CROSSTALK)

ROBINS: Well, parents and kids watch them together. This is family viewing. I mean, really, the TV landscape has become so much narrow-casting.

COOPER: You mean, parents didn't feel comfortable watching Lorenzo Lamas do a laser pointing at people with their kids?

ROBINS: No, I don't think they -- I don't think that quite worked. But I do think families watch "Idol" together. It's kind of taken the place of the way families used to watch a sitcom like the "Cosby Show."

COOPER: I've got to argue with you on "Are you Hot?" I actually watched it and enjoyed it for this whole shot and the Freudian element of it, watching these beautiful people be crushed and then sort of weep at the end during the credits. You know, it game me -- it filled me somehow with joy.

ROBINS: Well, that's OK.

COOPER: But I think that's just because I'm bitter and isolated.

Why didn't -- there is now this reality TV movie, "The Real Cancun," which is coming out this weekend.

ROBINS: Right.

COOPER: A lot of movie executives were very nervous about it, because if the genre worked on the big screen, it might be bad news for screenwriters and for actors. But it has not pulled in huge numbers.

ROBINS: No, the predictions were that this was going to be a huge hit, especially with young audiences. It didn't work, and I think maybe we've got some hope for humanity now.

COOPER: I don't know. It's May sweeps and the summer are coming. And basically in the summers is when a lot of shows, obviously dramas and sitcoms and stuff are reruns, and that's when there is going to be a whole new slate of reality shows coming on.

ROBINS: Yes, there is more stuff coming. In fact, they've got a spin-off of "Idol" called "American, Jr." Now, what I'm wondering about is if, you know, these poor kids who are going to be contestants, is there going to be some kind of junior Simon? It's just ruining their lives forever? I mean...

COOPER: A really bitter 16 year old, you know, or like Tiffany, who is going to be just angry that her career is down. She's going to be tearing into them. That would actually probably be watchable.

This reality TV channel 24 hours a day, it seems impossible that this thing would work. Do you think it has a possibility? ROBINS: Well, maybe in a universe where most of us have, you know, 100-plus channels now, there is a place for this. Is this going to be some kind of big break-out hit? I don't think so.

COOPER: It's interesting the idea that they're going to be rerunning reality shows, because, I mean, the networks have been loathed to rerun these things, because they tried it with "Survivor." It doesn't really pull in big numbers. Once people have sort of seen it, they get it. They don't want to see it again.

ROBINS: Yes, it doesn’t repeat that well. I mean, I could see something like it would be kind of fun, kind of camp the way the E channel used to do. You know, when the talk shows were all the rage, when there were a million Jerry Springer-type shows out there, and they'd have "Talk Soup." I don't know if reality channel is going to be what works.

COOPER: All right, we'll see. J. Max Robins, appreciate you joining us. Thanks for coming.

ROBINS: Thank you.

COOPER: Well, coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the long overdue "Segment 7," and another in our series of Iraq still life. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: Well, finally from us, another in our series of still photographers working in Iraq. Tonight, Don Bartletti, a photographer with the "L.A. Times."

Now, while covering the war, he got some news of his own, word that he had won the Pulitzer Prize for feature photography. That did not distract him, though, from the story he is trying to capture now: the city of Basra emerging from the wreckage of war.

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DON BARTLETTI, "LOS ANGELES TIMES": Well, my name is Don Bartletti. I've been a staff photographer with the "Los Angeles Times" for 20 years. And the most interesting part of and most intensely important thing I've done here is the liberation of Basra, the largest city outside of Baghdad and the stronghold of the Baath Party in this part of the country.

After the British were able to reject the ruling party, almost instantaneously chaos took over. And one particular day was like the Apocalypse. Floating in the salt marshes of Basra were dead bodies of Fedayeen soldiers and Iraqi soldiers, civilians.

And the Iraqi population began looting any government building that wasn't guarded by the British. The British troops that were (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of every major intersection were always an object of curiosity. At one point, there was a blonde-haired British woman on a tank, who men were throwing flowers to, asking for her signature, and women were hoisting their children up to give her a kiss. The FIF, or the Free Iraqi Forces, are a ragtag group of volunteers that are mostly showing up from around the region, actually more interested in the $150 a month wage probably than being an Iraqi freedom fighter. The U.S. Special Forces is in charge of patching together and uniforming and arming this group that may become the new Iraqi army.

We are interested in profiling some of the civilian wounded in this part of Basra. Families of injured people who are coming out and say, we don't have any water, we have to buy our own medicine, we have nothing, and we're suffering inside, and the hospital employees are taking the aid from the Red Crescent home to their families. Why don't we have anything? And the hospital staff claimed they hadn't been paid for a month, and their families were just as needy.

Some of the electrical generating stations were not secured, and looters disabled them. In desperation, citizens were boring holes through the pipes underground. So, several days later when electricity was restored, there was insufficient pressure for people to get water in their homes, so people were trying to grab water in any place that they could. Geysers were shooting up from the underground pipes.

So, this is a fresh fire that filled the air north of Basra. Through the scene came a woman carrying fresh green branches. Since cooking gas is in such short supply, people are frantic and desperate for any wood to burn to cook their meals.

Ironically, this city is undergoing a building boom, because in the chaos without a government people are stealing land, squatting on it, trying to get a structure up before a ruling party takes over. Some of the materials ironically came from a building site where the new Saddam Hussein mosque was to be built here in Basra.

This particular man lost three sons, and he said he cried so much that that's why he lost his sight. The man said, "When Saddam Hussein was in power, we did not dare cry publicly. Now, we can show our tears and not be afraid."

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COOPER: The photos of Don Bartletti with the "L.A. Times."

That's it for our expanded edition of NEWSNIGHT. I hope you'll be back tomorrow night at 10:00 Eastern. I will. I'll see you then.

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