Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

New Tape of Saddam Surfaces; Warnings in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia of Possible Attacks Against U.S. Interests

Aired May 02, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again. We sometimes think Fridays should feel more settled than they do, that by the end of the week at the end of the day some of the week's unfinished business ought to be, well, finished. Wouldn't that be something?
Instead, there's little business that isn't unfinished tonight, whether it's peace in the Middle East, a little boy lost, campaign finance, or the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein, unfinished business and unanswered questions.

About all that's settled this Friday is what Nigella Lawson is whipping up for us tonight. Yep, we have a chef. Until then, we'll make do with "The Whip."

And, first in "The Whip," Nic Robertson, he's in Baghdad on the tape released today of a worn and defeated sounding Saddam Hussein -- Nic, a headline please.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, new videotape emerging of Saddam Hussein on the 9th of April, the day his regime fell. It raises two very important questions. Number one, of course, was this really the former Iraqi leader, and the other, why now -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you, back to you at the top tonight.

On to Washington, and a new assessment on the state of al Qaeda, CNN Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena, working that -- Kelli a headline.

KELLY ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the terror network may be down but it is not out. New warnings in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia about possible terror attacks against U.S. interests is proof that al Qaeda remains a potent enemy.

AARON: Kelli, thank you.

Next, to Jerusalem, bumps on the roadmap to peace another Kelly, this time Kelly Wallace, on the phone -- Kelly, a headline.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, tens of thousands of Palestinians take to the streets vowing revenge after a deadly Israeli military operation and voicing opposition to the new Palestinian prime minister, just another example of why many believe it will be very difficult for that roadmap to quickly get the two sides on the path to peace.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you.

Also tonight, Jason Bellini will join us from Albany, Georgia, where different kinds of battle lines are forming over issues of race. Jason has that. That's coming up.

Also coming up in the hour ahead, which is Friday, the 2nd day of May, a familiar new face in the defense of the case of Laci Peterson, attorney Mark Geragos now leading the effort to keep Scott Peterson out of the death chamber.

And embarrassing questions for the postal service, when postal workers weren't rooting out fraud and waste, they were baking gingerbread and dressing up as cats. They were doing it with your money.

And, 40 years later memories of planting the seeds of civil rights into bitter soil of Birmingham, Alabama from the people who were there, all that and more in the 90 minutes ahead.

But we begin with Saddam Hussein's latest appearance on a tape documenting the moment when it must have been apparent, even to him, that things were going badly in the war. On it we see and hear very much a shadow of his former self. That said, each new tape, each new letter, each curtain call, if you will, retains a certain power to puzzle and to haunt us, bedevil the process of building a post-war, post-Saddam Iraq.

We begin tonight in Baghdad and CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Appearing tired, confused, and exhausted, Saddam Hussein delivers his last address to the Iraqi people. He starts, "The faster the better. Are you ready?"

Broadcast by radio on April 9th, the day his regime collapsed, this is the first time the video recording of the speech has been seen. As he reads, he occasionally loses his way. "And if you would like to ask about your command, it is firm and not moved" he says.

The message, however, belies the truth. Although it is not known where this was recorded, by the end of that day U.S. troops were famously helping pull down one of Saddam's statues in the center of Baghdad.

Previously released video from the same source, an employee of Iraqi TV, shows what purports to be Saddam Hussein in the Adamia (ph) neighborhood of Baghdad on the same day, April 9th.

The man clamoring on the cars on that video bears a strong resemblance to Saddam Hussein and looks just like the man giving the speech. The emergence of this tape raises many questions, not least of which is why now, particularly following reports from a little known pro-Saddam group that the former Iraqi leader would make a speech soon.

At the end of this recording, a pause, adding "how was the reading, all in all good? Yes?" Possibly the root of his problems, no one left around to tell him he was wrong.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: If the specter of one man hangs over Iraq, the ghosts of 2,700-plus men, women, and children haunt the new roadmap to peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

The roadmap calls for restraint on both sides, not business as usual. But as Secretary of State Powell gets ready for a new round of shuttle diplomacy, business as usual is staring him in the face, reporting for us tonight CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Wallace (voice-over): Calls for revenge and rejection of the Mid East roadmap in Gaza City Friday, as thousands attended funerals for some of the 13 Palestinians, including four teenagers killed by Israeli forces in a raid the day before targeting the radical Palestinian group Hamas.

These operations, Palestinian analysts say, undermine the new Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas arguing his success hinges on whether he can convince Israel to take steps such as pulling its troops out of Palestinian town.

MAHDI ABDUL HADI, PALESTINIAN ANALYST: I have doubts, very much doubts, the Israelis are going to deliver the minimum expected from them because they are still living in that (unintelligible) of fear and they don't trust us.

WALLACE: The Israelis say they don't know if they can trust Abbas just yet, pointing to a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv just hours after his cabinet was confirmed in the Palestinian Parliament.

GIDEON MEIR, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: We're expecting their prime minister to take action, not declarations, to perform not to give promises. We want to see action on the ground against terror.

WALLACE: And, Israelis say if they see action they will take steps immediately, such as releasing Palestinian prisoners and dismantling illegal settlement outposts even while Israeli officials and the public remain skeptical Palestinian President Yasser Arafat is truly giving up power to the new prime minister.

In an Israeli newspaper poll released Friday, asked who they believe is in charge, 71 percent of Israelis said Arafat. Only seven percent said Abbas, with 22 percent saying they did not know.

(on camera): Even if the two sides can find a way to start trusting each other again, there is the question of whether they will be willing to take the painful steps required under the roadmap to bring about a democratic Palestinian state alongside secure Israel by 2005.

(voice-over): This Israeli columnist who has covered the region for 35 years says the answer is no.

DANNY RUBINSTEIN, "HA ARETZ" COLUMNIST: Israeli will never freeze the settlements, or this government at least will never freeze the settlement, the settlement movement. And, the Palestinians will not stop terrorism.

WALLACE: The diplomats now will try to prove the skeptics wrong hoping this latest peace effort will succeed whereas so many others have failed before.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And, Kelly joins us on the phone from Jerusalem, more violence, and more death -- Kelly.

WALLACE: Yes, Aaron, an overnight development, the Israeli military confirming that a British cameraman was killed covering a clash between Israeli troops and armed Palestinian gunmen in the Gaza Strip near the Israeli-Egyptian border.

The IDF says its troops were uncovering a tunnel allegedly used for smuggling weapons when they came under fire by armed Palestinian gunmen. The troops returned fire and during that clash, this cameraman was hit and killed. The IDF is expressing sorrow at the death of the cameraman, saying this is a person who did enter a combat zone and did run the risk of getting hurt.

But obviously, Aaron, another sign the violence continues and the real difficulties ahead for the international diplomats to get these two sides on a path to peace -- Aaron.

BROWN: Do we know which side fired the shot that killed the cameraman?

WALLACE: We do not. We know one shot apparently did kill him. We are not certain if it was an Israeli shot or if it came from an armed Palestinian gunman who was killed during that clash.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you very much, Kelly Wallace who's in Jerusalem.

Day two of President Bush's victory tour and we're once again reminded of the legacy, not just of his father, but of the man his father succeeded. Nearly 20 years ago when Ronald Reagan was running for reelection, a network correspondent did a piece contrasting the administration's morning in American imagery with the reality of a sagging economy.

The correspondent was surprised the next day to get a thank you note from Deputy Chief of Staff Michael Deever. "How can you thank me," she asked, "I just skewered your boss?" "Simple" he replied. "The pictures were great and that's all people see." Nearly 20 years later, the question is on the table, does the formula still hold?

Here's CNN's Suzanne Malveauz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush is steaming full force ahead from the USS Abraham Lincoln, where he had declared major combat operations in Iraq over, to a military contractor that provided tanks and fighting vehicles for the war.

This visit to United Defense Industries in California's Silicon Valley, the heart of the economic bubble and its burst, was also designed to use Mr. Bush's wartime popularity to sell his $550 billion tax cut plan aimed at promoting economic growth.

BUSH: The goal of this country is to have an economy vibrant enough, strong enough, so that somebody who's looking for work can find a job.

MALVEAUX: But Mr. Bush was stung by newly released unemployment numbers, a jump from 5.8 percent unemployment in March to six 6 percent in April, 8.8 million Americans out of work, more than half a million jobs lost in the past three months, the worst stretch since immediately following the September 11th terrorist attacks, a fact Democrats immediately seized on to blast his big tax cut plan.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said, "We would hope that the president would use his political capital that he may have gained coming off the war to create jobs for the American people and not just create a tax break for the wealthiest people." The president, too, tried to use the new unemployment figure to his advantage.

BUSH: The unemployment number is now at 6 percent, which should serve as a clear signal to the United States Congress we need a bold economic recovery package so people can find work.

MALVEAUX: With the latest polls showing Mr. Bush's popularity hovering around 70 percent, the White House is hoping his wartime success will also help the administration push other items on the domestic agenda, like Medicare reform, prescription drugs, and energy.

But aides acknowledge it's far from certain, one reason the president will continue to travel across the country, to promote his brand of job creation in important electoral states.

(on camera): And while this weekend President Bush hosts Australia's Prime Minister John Howard at his Crawford Ranch to thank him for his support in the war with Iraq, nine Democratic presidential hopefuls will gather in South Carolina for their first debate, all angling to find holes in Mr. Bush's agenda.

Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: With us once again, a veteran of many administrations, David Gergen, currently passing on his wisdom at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, and when we can get him here on this program as well, David, nice to have you with us.

DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Good to talk to you again, Aaron.

BROWN: Let's go back 24 hours. It was a world class photo opportunity.

GERGEN: The best we've seen I think, Aaron, since -- certainly since Michael Deever was in the White House with Ronald Reagan, but I would go all the way back to Richard Nixon's return from China.

It was a dramatically orchestrated return when he came in on a helicopter to the steps of Capitol Hill on live television and then went into that chamber to talk, to report to the American people on that breakthrough in diplomacy. It was a highly orchestrated event then, and this one was clearly orchestrated down to the very colors that were displayed in section after section on that ship.

It was an awesome sight and it's -- I was thinking, Aaron, there was a time when the opposition party always used to get angry. They could splutter about the fact that the president was using Air Force One. This is the first time we've ever seen a president use an aircraft carrier.

BROWN: And he used it pretty well. Since the war, the president has been seen at the Pentagon, at a couple of Army bases, at two tank factories. What is the point of the imagery here?

GERGEN: Oh, I think it's to sink in very deeply in the public mind, especially yesterday, knowing that the battle was coming to an end and they did want to pivot toward economic affairs to leave a deep imprint upon the public mind of a warrior leader.

It is a great asset for the president heading toward reelection and it's also meant to send a signal to other nations that might test us, don't, you know, it's that shirt they wear in Texas, "Don't Mess With Texas" and that's surely the signal he's sending out with all of these images.

BROWN: Any political risk in such an obvious photo op?

GERGEN: There's a modest political risk, Aaron, but I think it's in the noise and it's -- everyone knows that there were political overtones to last night's event on the carrier and some Americans, I'm sure, didn't watch.

But this was a moment, frankly, when whatever your position was on the war, and I had some differences with the president on the war, it was a moment when all Americans celebrated the end of the war, and I think Democratic (unintelligible) it's really important in a moment like this to stand aside, celebrate the commander-in-chief, celebrate the military, let that moment pass, and then there will be other times when you can come back and make your criticisms. Last night was not the time and I think last night the president deserved to bask in the glory.

BROWN: On to the substance.

GERGEN: Sure.

BROWN: Of the talk last night. What jumped out at you either said or unsaid?

GERGEN: Aaron, what jumped out at me was the -- that the underlying message that struck me was that in addition to thanking the troops and saying that the battle is basically over that the president has been waving around a club now for some months, threatening one country after another with military action.

Last night he repeated his philosophy but I thought he put the club back in the closet. I thought he essentially said I've got the club in the closet. Don't mess with us. In the meantime, I'm going back to domestic affairs.

My reading of the White House strategy is that they do not intend to undertake any major military enterprises between now and the election but rather to concentrate on domestic affairs. There would be some fear in the White House, if you were looking at another military action say in Syria, that people would think you were a little trigger happy or maybe reckless.

By going now to having completed Afghanistan and completed Iraq in the public mind successfully, even though there are going to be all these huge issues now, difficult issues of rebuilding, I think it was a -- I think the main thing the president was doing last night was saying, OK, we've done it. We've shown the world and don't mess with us. In the meantime, I'm going to go back and rebuild the American economy.

BROWN: Something unsaid, maybe I'm reading more into this than ought to be, he thanked Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld but he never mentioned his secretary of state.

GERGEN: Absolutely on, Aaron. That was striking, was it not, and after all it was only a week ago that Newt Gingrich issued that chilly blast against the secretary of state, and instead of the president defending his secretary of state, he sent his spokesman out to do it.

And then last night, he thanked Secretary Rumsfeld. He thanked Tommy Franks and said nothing about Secretary Powell, and I was surprised. It does seem to me that it creates perhaps a misimpression. Perhaps it was not what he intended to say but by the omission spoke volumes and it does seem to me now that Secretary Powell is doing the messy work of diplomacy, which is always harder, and he's off in the Mid East with this, you know, trying to sell this roadmap. You just had a report on about how difficult this is going to be. He's going to have his work cut out for him and I do think Secretary Powell now is laboring under a much larger burden than he was only a few months ago.

BROWN: David, good to have you with us. Have a good weekend.

GERGEN: Thank you, Aaron. Take care.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, David Gergen with us tonight from Boston.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT continuing threat from al Qaeda recruiting new members and making new threats.

And later, Scott Peterson gets a high-profile celebrity attorney as he prepares to defend himself against charges that he killed his wife and unborn child.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A comedian recently said we wanted the leadership of al Qaeda dead or alive and that's just how we got them. Osama bin Laden is either dead or alive.

Beyond that small detail, where does al Qaeda, the organization, stand? How capable is it of doing harm? Today the government warned that al Qaeda's in the final stages of planning an aerial attack on the U.S. Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, so clearly the intent is still there even if the organization is weaker.

Here's CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): Recent intelligence is prompting warnings al Qaeda is targeting U.S. interests in both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Twenty months into the war on terror and al Qaeda still poses a serious threat.

BUSH: And we're still on the hunt. We will flush them out of their caves. We'll get them on the run and we will bring them to justice.

ARENA: Half of al Qaeda's senior operatives are now dead or in U.S. custody, but Public Enemy #1, Osama bin Laden, his second in command Ayman Al-Zawahiri, and al Qaeda's security chief Saif Al-Adel, have all eluded U.S. forces, and the terror network is actively moving to replenish its ranks. For the first time, Director Robert Mueller acknowledged the FBI is actively tracking down recruiters right here in the United States.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: On those individuals, we have open investigations and we are pursuing them hard. ARENA: With U.S. forces still in Afghanistan, intelligence suggests al Qaeda is building up its ranks in Southeast Asia and East Africa. In recent months, both have seen al Qaeda-related attacks against so-called soft targets like hotels and nightclubs.

KEN KATZMAN, TERRORISM EXPERT: The government capabilities perhaps to find them is less, so they're under less pressure. They can continue to be active there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Katzman and other experts say while al Qaeda does pose a threat, it's probably not capable of large scale attacks like we saw on September 11th. But the FBI disagrees and says that al Qaeda is as dangerous now as it was then -- Aaron.

BROWN: Ms. Arena, I actually do know the difference between the Kellies on the staff. I apologize.

ARENA: That's OK.

BROWN: Was there any surprise from people who have been covering the Justice Department and al Qaeda when the president said that half the leadership had been already taken out?

ARENA: No, because what he said was true. I mean half of the senior leadership of al Qaeda has been taken into custody or, at least in the case of one, Mohammed Atef, thought to be killed.

But the larger issue of the rest, obviously this is only half so there's the rest, the other half is still at large and you have thousands of individuals who moved through those camps, Aaron, the terror camps in Afghanistan that, a) the FBI hasn't even been able to identify most of those people; and, two, doesn't know where they are.

So, there is a much bigger picture, so it depends on which fact you'd like to take out of this. Yes, have there been victories against this terror network, absolutely. Are captures of people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed important, absolutely, but there is a still a lot of work to be done.

BROWN: Kelli, I'll leave it at Kelli, thank you very much. Have a great weekend.

ARENA: You too.

BROWN: Kelli Arena at the Justice Department.

Tonight, Michael Elliott is with us. He's an editor-at-large at "TIME" Magazine, recognized experts on bin Laden and al Qaeda, and a good friend of the program, nice to see you.

MICHAEL ELLIOTT, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "TIME MAGAZINE": Good to be here.

BROWN: Well, the glass is half full and half empty, is that how we look at this?

ELLIOTT: I think it's how we have to look at it. I think Kelli is absolutely right. But I was very struck by the fact that President Bush yesterday was prepared to say that we had either killed or captured 50 percent of the senior leadership.

That bespoke to me of a certain degree of confidence that they have not always publicly shown when they've been discussing the war against terrorism. It's absolutely true that there are thousands out there but I suspect that there are some things going on that make them feel not confident but pretty good.

BROWN: Known or unknown, some breakthrough in terms of what, an interrogation, an operation, what are you almost saying here?

ELLIOTT: I think it's a brick here and a brick there and the sure and certain knowledge that there are lots and lots of people out there who we don't know where they are. We don't know how we're going to get them. But you build a brick here and a brick there.

We have now got hold of quite a lot of the known people who were involved, either in the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000, or who were behind September the 11th. In other words, they're not the people who were on the planes.

BROWN: The money people.

ELLIOTT: The money people, yes.

BROWN: Is the Shia community in southern Iraq, the young men there is that ripe recruitment territory for al Qaeda?

ELLIOTT: That's a really good question and I honestly don't think anyone knows. If you look at the situation in Iraq at the moment with the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime, you would suppose on the basis that my enemy's enemy is my friend that al Qaeda operatives would be recruiting among disaffected Iraqis.

On the other hand, Iraqis have not, by and large, been over represented in the ranks of Islamic terrorists in the last 15 years. So, I don't think we quite know. I thought Kelli's point that Southeast Asia is somewhere that we have to keep an eye on is absolutely right. East Africa...

BROWN: Talking about Southeast Asia here, where are we talking about?

ELLIOTT: Indonesia, mainly.

BROWN: OK.

ELLIOTT: Indonesia because it's easier to hide, because Indonesia is an (unintelligible) that spans 3,000 miles with however many islands it is and it's easy to hide. The Bali bombing was evidence that the indigenous Islamic groups in Indonesia have made alliances with al Qaeda, logistical, financial alliances. I think the other area that we have to keep a very close eye on, and I've said this on this program many times before, is the cities of Western Europe.

BROWN: Yes.

ELLIOTT: That's where increasingly you see Algerian groups have relocated to cities in France, in Germany. Just this week you had two British passport holders...

BROWN: Right.

ELLIOTT: ...who decided they wanted to be suicide bombers in Palestine. So, I think what the destruction of the camps did, of course, was to remove the capacity that al Qaeda had to run a state within a state in Afghanistan. That's hugely, hugely important but...

BROWN: None of the...

ELLIOTT: ...it dispersed everyone.

BROWN: When you talk about Indonesia or East Africa, are any of these governments willing hosts?

ELLIOTT: No. I don't believe so. I don't think. I think the real undeniable difference between the terrorist situation now and the terrorist situation two years ago, notwithstanding all the dangers that are still out there, is that there is not and I would guess will not be in the foreseeable future a state that will allow its institutions to be taken over by terrorist organizations in the way that Afghanistan did. We should be grateful for that.

BROWN: And we are. Michael, thank you. We're grateful to have you with us tonight.

ELLIOTT: Thank you.

BROWN: Michael Elliott, "TIME Magazine." I got the name right twice in a row.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, Scott Peterson asked for a court- appointed lawyer before but now he has a famous one, Mark Geragos, the latest on that, the rest of the day's news. NEWSNIGHT continues around the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: From the moment she disappeared, Laci Peterson has been national news. Why this case, and not scores of others, became that is one of the unanswerable questions of both journalism and the culture. But it is news and in the matter of the accused husband another chapter was written today.

Here's CNN's Rusty Dornin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Following his arrest, Scott Peterson told a judge he couldn't afford a lawyer. This time, he walked into a Stanislaus County courtroom and got a high- priced attorney, along with some high hopes.

MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY FOR SCOTT PETERSON: With the court's permission, I would ask to substitute in at this time.

DORNIN: Mark Geragos, labeled by a Los Angeles paper as one of the hottest attorneys of the moment, complete with a roster of celebrity clients: Gary Condit, Susan McDougal, and Winona Ryder, to name a few. He immediately earned his first victory in this case. The next time Scott Peterson goes to court, no more jumpsuit, no more shackles.

GERAGOS: If the court wants to talk about prejudicial publicity, having poster-sized pictures of him labeled as a monster in chains I don't think is somehow conducive to getting a fair trial.

DORNIN: A fair trial, something that has worried Scott Peterson's family.

(on camera): His family has stepped up to the mike many times to defend Scott. But, this time, there seemed to be a stronger sense of optimism.

SUSAN CAUDILLO, SISTER OF SCOTT PETERSON: He just comes with a lot of -- a lot of qualities that we want to provide Scott with, just the best defense attorney that he can have.

DORNIN: Outside the court, Geragos and his parade, showing reporters his dancing ability, whatever the question.

QUESTION: Mark, are you concerned about the comments that you made on Larry King coming back in this case?

GERAGOS: Coming back where?

QUESTION: Well, the comments you made publicly about this case

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: Well, I didn't see my name on the witness list.

DORNIN: Geragos says he has his homework cut out for him this weekend, taking home more than 5,000 pages of discovery, back in court on Monday for some pretrial legal wrangling, Geragos promising reporters a better sense of his strategy in the case.

Rusty Dornin, CNN, Modesto, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Where missing children are concerned, there are so few happy endings, which is why so many people were so heartened and tonight so saddened by the case of Eli Quick. The latest from CNN's Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): It looked so promising. The little boy from North Carolina we'd seen in the pool missing for two years, looked just like this bedraggled boy who turned up outside Chicago. They had similar speech impediments, scars in the same places. But the would-be miracle turns out instead to be coincidence.

TOM KNEIR, CHICAGO FBI: The two children are not identical.

FLOCK: Chicago FBI agent Tom Kneir says a DNA test proves it.

RAVEN MYERS, MOTHER OF BUDDY MYERS: Then I got all worked up and my hopes up for nothing.

FLOCK: The test proves Raven Myers, the topless dancer from North Carolina, is not the mother of the boy in Chicago, Eli Quick. Her own little Buddy Myers, who would be 6 now, is still missing.

MYERS: I don't want nobody to call me up until they have results or DNA or they know for sure, because I don't want to keep going through this.

FLOCK: Raven Myers' bad news is Ricky Quick's good.

RICKY QUICK, ALLEGED FATHER OF BUDDY MYERS: I'm buying stuff for my son and I'm looking forward to getting him back.

FLOCK: Quick, who believes he's Eli's father, brought him to this Evanston, Illinois, hospital in February and essentially abandoned him dirty and poorly cared for, says social workers. He'll have to answer for that, they say, before he gets Eli back. He hasn't yet.

QUICK: No more comment. That's it. Get out of my way.

FLOCK: And he'll have to prove Eli is his, the product of an affair with a Chicago prostitute, as he claims.

JILL MANUEL, ILLINOIS DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND FAMILY SERVICES: We were piecing together the pieces of this puzzle. It's been like a detective novel for us.

FLOCK: A novel, the story of one missing little boy with a possible miracle ending turns out instead to be two sad stories, neither of which yet has an end, happy or otherwise.

I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, in Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: a big setback for campaign finance reform; and the story of postal hijinks, how the Postal Service's inspector general is spending money.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Still ahead: At 11:00 Eastern, we go back to Birmingham for a reunion of people who were on the front lines of the civil rights protest 40 years ago; and then a story of segregation that remains: high school students and their whites-only prom.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Campaign finance now. The story keeps coming up because the heart of the question never really goes away. Does regulating political contributions inevitably add up to limiting political speech?

Today, a federal appeals court declared much of the McCain- Feingold campaign finance law unconstitutional.

Here's CNN's Tim O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Backers of the law said it would remove the corrosive influence of big money on elections. Opponents said it was the law itself that was corrosive, violating the First Amendment right to free speech.

In a sprawling 1,600-page treatise, the three-judge panel handed both sides victory and defeat. The court did uphold a ban on issue advocacy within 60 days of an election, but only in the narrowest of circumstances, when the ad is "suggestive of no plausible meaning, other than an exhortation to vote for or against a specific candidate." The lawyer leading the attack on the law says he'll appeal.

A more conservative group wants to do an ad praising President Bush's position and successes in the war in Iraq, can it really be that that can be a crime? Well, under the new statute, maybe.

O'BRIEN: Fred Wertheimer has been crusading for campaign finance reform for more than 30 years. He and other supporters of the law say they won more than they lost.

FRED WERTHEIMER, DEMOCRACY 21: Like the restriction that federal office-holders and candidates cannot raise these huge contributions and the political parties can't use these soft-money funds to run ads about federal candidates.

O'BRIEN: But the court ruled political parties can still raise and spend soft money for other activities, such as getting out the vote, that the law's provisions to the contrary violate free speech, a mixed bag to Wisconsin Democrat Russ Feingold, one of the moving forces behind the law. SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: See, look, I think that there are potential loopholes being created here that the Supreme Court needs to close. And I hope they will. I don't like those parts of the decision.

O'BRIEN: The law specifically allows the case to go directly to the Supreme Court, bypassing other appeals.

(on camera): And the exceptional importance of this case could persuade the judges to move swiftly. The next election is only a year and a half away. And the money game has already begun.

Tim O'Brien, CNN Financial News, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So, OK, true or false, team spirit is a good thing? Don't answer yet. Wait until you've seen this report on the flap surrounding the way one Washington official has gone about this team spirit thing.

The report from CNN's Jonathan Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This mock striptease is said to be part of a department bonding session conducted by the U.S. Postal Service's Inspector General.

According to current and former employees, it's part of the unusual management style of Carla Corcoran the Postal Service's internal watchdog charged with rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We work on quality products and services.

KARL: Tapes shot by current and former employees of Corcoran, and obtained by CNN from a former employee, show team building retreats where Corcoran allegedly requires some of her 750 employees to do things like dress up as cats, sing songs like the Village People, and work on group activities like building gingerbread houses. This photo shows employees lifting Corcoran up with strings during a team building session.

Corcoran now finds herself under fire from lawmakers, including Senators Byron Dorgan and Ron Wyden who say she has wasted more than $3 million on the employee retreats. They want her fired. Citizens Against Government Waste agrees.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The inspector general should be spending every single minute of every day focused on eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse, not on absurd team-building exercises.

KARL: But Corcoran says the charges are unfair and misleading. She says the team building sessions cost $73,000 not millions. In a written statement, Corcoran who was appointed by Bill Clinton in 1997, said: "I have no plans to resign and I stand by the performance of my agency, which has identified more than $2.2 billion in savings and cost avoidances to the U.S. Postal Service and rate-payers over the past six years."

Corcoran says the kind of team-building exercises she uses are unusual in government, but are common practice in corporate America. In fact, the consultants she hired to work with her employees has also done work for dozens of Fortune 500 companies, including American Express and IBM.

Jonathan Karl, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, if we had an ironic news segment, this would be tonight's installment. It seems that one of the country's best-known proponents of virtue has a vice.

William Bennett, the former secretary of education, the former drug czar, the author of "The Book of Virtues," and a very successful public speaker and writer against immoral excesses of the age is himself, according to "Newsweek" magazine and "Washington Monthly," a gambler on a huge scale. He likes the $1,000 slot machines and video poker, the publications say. And he may, Mr. Bennett may have gone through as much as $8 million in his time in casinos.

Mr. Bennett is unapologetic. He says he gambles to relax, has all his life, grew up liking church bingo. It's not, he says, a moral issue for him. And like most gamblers, he says he's broken about even over the years, which, according to the article, made one casino worker laugh.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: time to think about our stomachs. And why not? So we've brought Nigella Lawson in from Nigella Bites. She joins us in a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, we like to think we offer a bill of fare around here. Most nights, we think of it as food for thought, fresh as we can get it. But we're pretty fond of actual food as well and always happy to welcome as a guest Ms. Nigella Lawson, writer, host of her own Style Network television program and has a new book out, "Forever Summer." Pleasure to watch her in the kitchen and very nice to have her here. And like every good guest, she brought goodies.

(LAUGHTER)

NIGELLA LAWSON, HOST, "FOREVER SUMMER WITH NIGELLA": I'm trying to ingratiate myself with you, Aaron.

BROWN: Oh, not necessary. What is it, by the way?

LAWSON: It's a white chocolate and almond torte. You see, it's really very, very low in carbs. I know that you have fallen off the Atkins wagon.

BROWN: Yes, I have fallen off. I'm about to fall off and kill myself.

LAWSON: No, no, no, well, that's really a tacky thing to say after his sad demise.

But just think of it, as I say, carb-loading and then, afterwards, you can go back refreshed and the weight will just fall off. Anyway, you don't need to lose weight. It's absurd.

BROWN: I love the raspberries.

LAWSON: I know. But you do need the raspberries, because it's...

BROWN: The difference between -- while we're eating here -- the difference between a chef and a cook?

LAWSON: Oh, all the difference in the world. I think a chef is a professional. And I'm afraid I'm stunningly, apparently, unprofessional and disorganized. But, really, a chef...

BROWN: You don't think yourself as a chef?

LAWSON: I'm not at all a chef. I have no training. I'm a journalist. And, somehow -- I used to cook a lot to put off the evil hour when I would have to write my column. And then, somehow, the food took over.

But a cook is really -- cooking at home is an intimate matter. And cooking in a restaurant is a theatrical affair. And so they're very different. Well, that's quite apart from -- as I say, I don't have the skills or expertise. But then it's kind of a very odd contemporary notion that experts are what matter. But it's even sillier, I think, in the sense of in food, because we all eat and we all have taste buds. And I don't think you need training to be allowed to express that.

BROWN: Do you think people, to be a good cook, need to be able to open the pantry and see a bunch of ingredients and say, if I took a little of that, a little of this, and a little of that and put it on a chicken, that would be great?

LAWSON: Well, that's part of it. But I think that maybe comes later.

I think, in a way, what makes a good cook is trusting your own sense of taste and not thinking cooking is some sort of abstract ideal of perfection, but just thinking, you know, I like the taste of lemon or, I quite feel like I want the flavor of oregano. So it's really about deconstructing it. I think it's not about kind of thinking about the end product. It's rather more kind of feeling your way as you go, like the rest of life, really.

BROWN: How can you say that you like beets?

(LAUGHTER)

LAWSON: Ah. Well, I like beets mostly, in fact, when they're raw.

BROWN: Because there's a beet salad in the book.

LAWSON: There is, but it's raw. There's two beet salads. One is raw. And I think that raw, which is a very unusual way of eating beets, kind of can redeem one's memory of the beet. Do you know how -- that sort of putrid flabbiness it has?

And I think that raw, it's kind of sort of nutty and fresh- tasting. If I'd known you had this prejudice, I would have brought you in a beet salad to see if I could change your

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: It wouldn't have worked. There are just certain foods that people -- and beets are one of them. Anchovies, which I love, are another. People either love anchovy or don't want to be near anchovy. But if you cook with anchovy and it sort of dissolves into whatever the sauce is you're making, it's incredibly wonderful flavor.

LAWSON: That's true. I know. When I use anchovies in a recipe, I always counsel people not to announce that at the table, because there are any number of eaters who think they don't like anchovies. But if they don't know they're there, as you say, then they love it.

BROWN: But you throw the anchovy on a pizza and people...

LAWSON: Well, that's always because they're those horrible little oversalty, dried-up ones, whereas, if you get an anchovy which hasn't been irradiated within an inch of its life, then it's going to taste of something rather than just of sort of metallic burn.

BROWN: What's the -- if it was your last meal, what would it be?

LAWSON: That's a hard thing to ask a greedy person.

I think it would either be steak and chips or steak and fries, say, or roast chicken and mashed potato, or a really magnificent cheeseburger.

BROWN: How do you eat the steak?

LAWSON: Or all three.

BROWN: Yes, that would be

(CROSSTALK)

LAWSON: How do I eat the steak?

BROWN: Yes.

LAWSON: Well, I just hit it over the head and walk it into the dining room. I don't really like it that much cooked. Blue.

BROWN: What did you have for dinner tonight? LAWSON: I had some duck pate on toast. And then I had roast chicken and green beans and mashed potato, little bit of butter on the top, and very good red wine. And then, just to make me feel that really I had a very light and healthy meal, I ended on green tea.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: There you go.

The book is stunning.

LAWSON: Oh, good. I'm glad you like it.

BROWN: Best of luck on the series.

LAWSON: Oh, thank you very much.

BROWN: And I've done really well. I should take...

LAWSON: Now I want to see you...

BROWN: I should take one bite of the cake.

LAWSON: You should. you're not allowed to spit it out afterwards.

BROWN: No, I'm not. That would be terrible. I'm going to eat this, too.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: We have more. We'll be right back.

Thank you.

LAWSON: That was very, very nice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: That was good.

OK, we move on now to a story about the great American game, which is a combination of springtime and grass and hero worship and some other traditions, one of which is currently causing fans to line up for and against. We'll give you a hint. Those against think this particular tradition as bad behavior in a can.

Here's CNN's Josie Karp.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This baseball fan ran on the field and attacked an umpire in Chicago. Another fan hurled a cell phone at Carl Everett during a game in Oakland. And even though these episodes of fan unruliness are taking place in different parts of the country, they're starting in the same place. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who's drinking here? Beer man.

KARP: The beverage of choice at the ballpark is beer. And you can find it without even leaving your seat. But to some fans, the behavior that beer often brings out is becoming unacceptable.

DAVID KALB, NEW JERSEY RESIDENT: You've got the cursing. You've got people swearing. It's one thing. We're older, but in front of 5- year-olds, they're just out of control. And the alcohol, I'm sure, is a large part of it.

FRANK ANGRISANI, BASEBALL FAN: It's a tradition. I have to drink. If I don't drink, then the game is of no interest to me.

SCOTT JACOB, BASEBALL FAN: Even now, we have little kids behind us. And I guarantee, the 25 people I'm with, three of them will be making asses of themselves by the 7th inning.

KARP: Some stadiums do offer alcohol-free family sections. And all ballparks provides vendors training for dealing with drunk fans. But that often leaves the same people selling the beer responsible for taking it away.

JAMES ELLISON, TURNER FIELD VISITOR VENDOR; The way we're taught is just, get a feel for the guy. If he's obviously drunk, then we don't sell him beer. But if he goes to me and buys two beers, then goes to somebody over here and buys two more beers, as long as he doesn't have the first two beers in his hand, we sell it to him.

KARP: Rules to regulate alcohol consumption vary widely. If Pittsburgh, you can't buy a beer in the stands after the sixth inning, while in Cleveland, beer flows until the final out. In some stadiums, the largest beer is 16 ounces. In Detroit, it's double that size.

But while an upcoming report to baseball's commissioner will outline suggested changes at all stadiums, any sweeping mandates will come at a price that baseball may not be willing to pay.

SANDY ALDERSON, MLB EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT: It's fair to say that there is a financial link between breweries and beer sales and baseball, but that's true of every sporting event in the United States.

RICHARD LAPCHICK, SPORTS SOCIOLOGIST: Beer sponsorship is probably one of its leading advertising sources for income. And, at the same time, it's quite obvious that, in order to change the behavior of fans in the stands, the amount of beer available to them has to be reduced.

KARP (on camera): Concession stand operators made more money off of beer sales last year than any other item, according to team marketing reports. And Nielsen data shows that beer companies spend more than $36 million on television advertising during Major League games. Those are MVP-type numbers in the ad game, but they could cost baseball fans in the long run. LAPCHICK: I think there are families across the country that aren't going to bring their children to a ballpark, for fear of what they might be subjected to. And that's got to erode the fan base.

ALDERSON: If you clean up the behavior that goes on in the stands routinely, then you eliminate these more notorious events, in which people are coming on the field, because you don't create as many opportunities for that to happen.

KARP (voice-over): Then the fans who drink beer and the ones who prefer cotton candy will both enjoy the game again, side by side, where they belong, in the stands.

Josie Karp, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In the next half-hour of NEWSNIGHT: race, then and now; 40 years after the Birmingham civil rights protests, we'll talk with some of the people who were on the front lines and what it's like and what's changed.

And then a story of race from today: the high school where some white students decided to have their own private prom.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Arabia of Possible Attacks Against U.S. Interests>


Aired May 2, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, again. We sometimes think Fridays should feel more settled than they do, that by the end of the week at the end of the day some of the week's unfinished business ought to be, well, finished. Wouldn't that be something?
Instead, there's little business that isn't unfinished tonight, whether it's peace in the Middle East, a little boy lost, campaign finance, or the whereabouts of Saddam Hussein, unfinished business and unanswered questions.

About all that's settled this Friday is what Nigella Lawson is whipping up for us tonight. Yep, we have a chef. Until then, we'll make do with "The Whip."

And, first in "The Whip," Nic Robertson, he's in Baghdad on the tape released today of a worn and defeated sounding Saddam Hussein -- Nic, a headline please.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, new videotape emerging of Saddam Hussein on the 9th of April, the day his regime fell. It raises two very important questions. Number one, of course, was this really the former Iraqi leader, and the other, why now -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you, back to you at the top tonight.

On to Washington, and a new assessment on the state of al Qaeda, CNN Justice Correspondent Kelli Arena, working that -- Kelli a headline.

KELLY ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the terror network may be down but it is not out. New warnings in Pakistan and Saudi Arabia about possible terror attacks against U.S. interests is proof that al Qaeda remains a potent enemy.

AARON: Kelli, thank you.

Next, to Jerusalem, bumps on the roadmap to peace another Kelly, this time Kelly Wallace, on the phone -- Kelly, a headline.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, tens of thousands of Palestinians take to the streets vowing revenge after a deadly Israeli military operation and voicing opposition to the new Palestinian prime minister, just another example of why many believe it will be very difficult for that roadmap to quickly get the two sides on the path to peace.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you.

Also tonight, Jason Bellini will join us from Albany, Georgia, where different kinds of battle lines are forming over issues of race. Jason has that. That's coming up.

Also coming up in the hour ahead, which is Friday, the 2nd day of May, a familiar new face in the defense of the case of Laci Peterson, attorney Mark Geragos now leading the effort to keep Scott Peterson out of the death chamber.

And embarrassing questions for the postal service, when postal workers weren't rooting out fraud and waste, they were baking gingerbread and dressing up as cats. They were doing it with your money.

And, 40 years later memories of planting the seeds of civil rights into bitter soil of Birmingham, Alabama from the people who were there, all that and more in the 90 minutes ahead.

But we begin with Saddam Hussein's latest appearance on a tape documenting the moment when it must have been apparent, even to him, that things were going badly in the war. On it we see and hear very much a shadow of his former self. That said, each new tape, each new letter, each curtain call, if you will, retains a certain power to puzzle and to haunt us, bedevil the process of building a post-war, post-Saddam Iraq.

We begin tonight in Baghdad and CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Appearing tired, confused, and exhausted, Saddam Hussein delivers his last address to the Iraqi people. He starts, "The faster the better. Are you ready?"

Broadcast by radio on April 9th, the day his regime collapsed, this is the first time the video recording of the speech has been seen. As he reads, he occasionally loses his way. "And if you would like to ask about your command, it is firm and not moved" he says.

The message, however, belies the truth. Although it is not known where this was recorded, by the end of that day U.S. troops were famously helping pull down one of Saddam's statues in the center of Baghdad.

Previously released video from the same source, an employee of Iraqi TV, shows what purports to be Saddam Hussein in the Adamia (ph) neighborhood of Baghdad on the same day, April 9th.

The man clamoring on the cars on that video bears a strong resemblance to Saddam Hussein and looks just like the man giving the speech. The emergence of this tape raises many questions, not least of which is why now, particularly following reports from a little known pro-Saddam group that the former Iraqi leader would make a speech soon.

At the end of this recording, a pause, adding "how was the reading, all in all good? Yes?" Possibly the root of his problems, no one left around to tell him he was wrong.

Nic Robertson, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: If the specter of one man hangs over Iraq, the ghosts of 2,700-plus men, women, and children haunt the new roadmap to peace between Israel and the Palestinians.

The roadmap calls for restraint on both sides, not business as usual. But as Secretary of State Powell gets ready for a new round of shuttle diplomacy, business as usual is staring him in the face, reporting for us tonight CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

Wallace (voice-over): Calls for revenge and rejection of the Mid East roadmap in Gaza City Friday, as thousands attended funerals for some of the 13 Palestinians, including four teenagers killed by Israeli forces in a raid the day before targeting the radical Palestinian group Hamas.

These operations, Palestinian analysts say, undermine the new Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas arguing his success hinges on whether he can convince Israel to take steps such as pulling its troops out of Palestinian town.

MAHDI ABDUL HADI, PALESTINIAN ANALYST: I have doubts, very much doubts, the Israelis are going to deliver the minimum expected from them because they are still living in that (unintelligible) of fear and they don't trust us.

WALLACE: The Israelis say they don't know if they can trust Abbas just yet, pointing to a suicide bombing in Tel Aviv just hours after his cabinet was confirmed in the Palestinian Parliament.

GIDEON MEIR, ISRAELI FOREIGN MINISTER: We're expecting their prime minister to take action, not declarations, to perform not to give promises. We want to see action on the ground against terror.

WALLACE: And, Israelis say if they see action they will take steps immediately, such as releasing Palestinian prisoners and dismantling illegal settlement outposts even while Israeli officials and the public remain skeptical Palestinian President Yasser Arafat is truly giving up power to the new prime minister.

In an Israeli newspaper poll released Friday, asked who they believe is in charge, 71 percent of Israelis said Arafat. Only seven percent said Abbas, with 22 percent saying they did not know.

(on camera): Even if the two sides can find a way to start trusting each other again, there is the question of whether they will be willing to take the painful steps required under the roadmap to bring about a democratic Palestinian state alongside secure Israel by 2005.

(voice-over): This Israeli columnist who has covered the region for 35 years says the answer is no.

DANNY RUBINSTEIN, "HA ARETZ" COLUMNIST: Israeli will never freeze the settlements, or this government at least will never freeze the settlement, the settlement movement. And, the Palestinians will not stop terrorism.

WALLACE: The diplomats now will try to prove the skeptics wrong hoping this latest peace effort will succeed whereas so many others have failed before.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, Jerusalem.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And, Kelly joins us on the phone from Jerusalem, more violence, and more death -- Kelly.

WALLACE: Yes, Aaron, an overnight development, the Israeli military confirming that a British cameraman was killed covering a clash between Israeli troops and armed Palestinian gunmen in the Gaza Strip near the Israeli-Egyptian border.

The IDF says its troops were uncovering a tunnel allegedly used for smuggling weapons when they came under fire by armed Palestinian gunmen. The troops returned fire and during that clash, this cameraman was hit and killed. The IDF is expressing sorrow at the death of the cameraman, saying this is a person who did enter a combat zone and did run the risk of getting hurt.

But obviously, Aaron, another sign the violence continues and the real difficulties ahead for the international diplomats to get these two sides on a path to peace -- Aaron.

BROWN: Do we know which side fired the shot that killed the cameraman?

WALLACE: We do not. We know one shot apparently did kill him. We are not certain if it was an Israeli shot or if it came from an armed Palestinian gunman who was killed during that clash.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you very much, Kelly Wallace who's in Jerusalem.

Day two of President Bush's victory tour and we're once again reminded of the legacy, not just of his father, but of the man his father succeeded. Nearly 20 years ago when Ronald Reagan was running for reelection, a network correspondent did a piece contrasting the administration's morning in American imagery with the reality of a sagging economy.

The correspondent was surprised the next day to get a thank you note from Deputy Chief of Staff Michael Deever. "How can you thank me," she asked, "I just skewered your boss?" "Simple" he replied. "The pictures were great and that's all people see." Nearly 20 years later, the question is on the table, does the formula still hold?

Here's CNN's Suzanne Malveauz.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): President Bush is steaming full force ahead from the USS Abraham Lincoln, where he had declared major combat operations in Iraq over, to a military contractor that provided tanks and fighting vehicles for the war.

This visit to United Defense Industries in California's Silicon Valley, the heart of the economic bubble and its burst, was also designed to use Mr. Bush's wartime popularity to sell his $550 billion tax cut plan aimed at promoting economic growth.

BUSH: The goal of this country is to have an economy vibrant enough, strong enough, so that somebody who's looking for work can find a job.

MALVEAUX: But Mr. Bush was stung by newly released unemployment numbers, a jump from 5.8 percent unemployment in March to six 6 percent in April, 8.8 million Americans out of work, more than half a million jobs lost in the past three months, the worst stretch since immediately following the September 11th terrorist attacks, a fact Democrats immediately seized on to blast his big tax cut plan.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi said, "We would hope that the president would use his political capital that he may have gained coming off the war to create jobs for the American people and not just create a tax break for the wealthiest people." The president, too, tried to use the new unemployment figure to his advantage.

BUSH: The unemployment number is now at 6 percent, which should serve as a clear signal to the United States Congress we need a bold economic recovery package so people can find work.

MALVEAUX: With the latest polls showing Mr. Bush's popularity hovering around 70 percent, the White House is hoping his wartime success will also help the administration push other items on the domestic agenda, like Medicare reform, prescription drugs, and energy.

But aides acknowledge it's far from certain, one reason the president will continue to travel across the country, to promote his brand of job creation in important electoral states.

(on camera): And while this weekend President Bush hosts Australia's Prime Minister John Howard at his Crawford Ranch to thank him for his support in the war with Iraq, nine Democratic presidential hopefuls will gather in South Carolina for their first debate, all angling to find holes in Mr. Bush's agenda.

Suzanne Malveaux, CNN, the White House. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: With us once again, a veteran of many administrations, David Gergen, currently passing on his wisdom at Harvard's Kennedy School of Government, and when we can get him here on this program as well, David, nice to have you with us.

DAVID GERGEN, FORMER PRESIDENTIAL ADVISER: Good to talk to you again, Aaron.

BROWN: Let's go back 24 hours. It was a world class photo opportunity.

GERGEN: The best we've seen I think, Aaron, since -- certainly since Michael Deever was in the White House with Ronald Reagan, but I would go all the way back to Richard Nixon's return from China.

It was a dramatically orchestrated return when he came in on a helicopter to the steps of Capitol Hill on live television and then went into that chamber to talk, to report to the American people on that breakthrough in diplomacy. It was a highly orchestrated event then, and this one was clearly orchestrated down to the very colors that were displayed in section after section on that ship.

It was an awesome sight and it's -- I was thinking, Aaron, there was a time when the opposition party always used to get angry. They could splutter about the fact that the president was using Air Force One. This is the first time we've ever seen a president use an aircraft carrier.

BROWN: And he used it pretty well. Since the war, the president has been seen at the Pentagon, at a couple of Army bases, at two tank factories. What is the point of the imagery here?

GERGEN: Oh, I think it's to sink in very deeply in the public mind, especially yesterday, knowing that the battle was coming to an end and they did want to pivot toward economic affairs to leave a deep imprint upon the public mind of a warrior leader.

It is a great asset for the president heading toward reelection and it's also meant to send a signal to other nations that might test us, don't, you know, it's that shirt they wear in Texas, "Don't Mess With Texas" and that's surely the signal he's sending out with all of these images.

BROWN: Any political risk in such an obvious photo op?

GERGEN: There's a modest political risk, Aaron, but I think it's in the noise and it's -- everyone knows that there were political overtones to last night's event on the carrier and some Americans, I'm sure, didn't watch.

But this was a moment, frankly, when whatever your position was on the war, and I had some differences with the president on the war, it was a moment when all Americans celebrated the end of the war, and I think Democratic (unintelligible) it's really important in a moment like this to stand aside, celebrate the commander-in-chief, celebrate the military, let that moment pass, and then there will be other times when you can come back and make your criticisms. Last night was not the time and I think last night the president deserved to bask in the glory.

BROWN: On to the substance.

GERGEN: Sure.

BROWN: Of the talk last night. What jumped out at you either said or unsaid?

GERGEN: Aaron, what jumped out at me was the -- that the underlying message that struck me was that in addition to thanking the troops and saying that the battle is basically over that the president has been waving around a club now for some months, threatening one country after another with military action.

Last night he repeated his philosophy but I thought he put the club back in the closet. I thought he essentially said I've got the club in the closet. Don't mess with us. In the meantime, I'm going back to domestic affairs.

My reading of the White House strategy is that they do not intend to undertake any major military enterprises between now and the election but rather to concentrate on domestic affairs. There would be some fear in the White House, if you were looking at another military action say in Syria, that people would think you were a little trigger happy or maybe reckless.

By going now to having completed Afghanistan and completed Iraq in the public mind successfully, even though there are going to be all these huge issues now, difficult issues of rebuilding, I think it was a -- I think the main thing the president was doing last night was saying, OK, we've done it. We've shown the world and don't mess with us. In the meantime, I'm going to go back and rebuild the American economy.

BROWN: Something unsaid, maybe I'm reading more into this than ought to be, he thanked Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld but he never mentioned his secretary of state.

GERGEN: Absolutely on, Aaron. That was striking, was it not, and after all it was only a week ago that Newt Gingrich issued that chilly blast against the secretary of state, and instead of the president defending his secretary of state, he sent his spokesman out to do it.

And then last night, he thanked Secretary Rumsfeld. He thanked Tommy Franks and said nothing about Secretary Powell, and I was surprised. It does seem to me that it creates perhaps a misimpression. Perhaps it was not what he intended to say but by the omission spoke volumes and it does seem to me now that Secretary Powell is doing the messy work of diplomacy, which is always harder, and he's off in the Mid East with this, you know, trying to sell this roadmap. You just had a report on about how difficult this is going to be. He's going to have his work cut out for him and I do think Secretary Powell now is laboring under a much larger burden than he was only a few months ago.

BROWN: David, good to have you with us. Have a good weekend.

GERGEN: Thank you, Aaron. Take care.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, David Gergen with us tonight from Boston.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT continuing threat from al Qaeda recruiting new members and making new threats.

And later, Scott Peterson gets a high-profile celebrity attorney as he prepares to defend himself against charges that he killed his wife and unborn child.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A comedian recently said we wanted the leadership of al Qaeda dead or alive and that's just how we got them. Osama bin Laden is either dead or alive.

Beyond that small detail, where does al Qaeda, the organization, stand? How capable is it of doing harm? Today the government warned that al Qaeda's in the final stages of planning an aerial attack on the U.S. Consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, so clearly the intent is still there even if the organization is weaker.

Here's CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): Recent intelligence is prompting warnings al Qaeda is targeting U.S. interests in both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Twenty months into the war on terror and al Qaeda still poses a serious threat.

BUSH: And we're still on the hunt. We will flush them out of their caves. We'll get them on the run and we will bring them to justice.

ARENA: Half of al Qaeda's senior operatives are now dead or in U.S. custody, but Public Enemy #1, Osama bin Laden, his second in command Ayman Al-Zawahiri, and al Qaeda's security chief Saif Al-Adel, have all eluded U.S. forces, and the terror network is actively moving to replenish its ranks. For the first time, Director Robert Mueller acknowledged the FBI is actively tracking down recruiters right here in the United States.

ROBERT MUELLER, FBI DIRECTOR: On those individuals, we have open investigations and we are pursuing them hard. ARENA: With U.S. forces still in Afghanistan, intelligence suggests al Qaeda is building up its ranks in Southeast Asia and East Africa. In recent months, both have seen al Qaeda-related attacks against so-called soft targets like hotels and nightclubs.

KEN KATZMAN, TERRORISM EXPERT: The government capabilities perhaps to find them is less, so they're under less pressure. They can continue to be active there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Katzman and other experts say while al Qaeda does pose a threat, it's probably not capable of large scale attacks like we saw on September 11th. But the FBI disagrees and says that al Qaeda is as dangerous now as it was then -- Aaron.

BROWN: Ms. Arena, I actually do know the difference between the Kellies on the staff. I apologize.

ARENA: That's OK.

BROWN: Was there any surprise from people who have been covering the Justice Department and al Qaeda when the president said that half the leadership had been already taken out?

ARENA: No, because what he said was true. I mean half of the senior leadership of al Qaeda has been taken into custody or, at least in the case of one, Mohammed Atef, thought to be killed.

But the larger issue of the rest, obviously this is only half so there's the rest, the other half is still at large and you have thousands of individuals who moved through those camps, Aaron, the terror camps in Afghanistan that, a) the FBI hasn't even been able to identify most of those people; and, two, doesn't know where they are.

So, there is a much bigger picture, so it depends on which fact you'd like to take out of this. Yes, have there been victories against this terror network, absolutely. Are captures of people like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed important, absolutely, but there is a still a lot of work to be done.

BROWN: Kelli, I'll leave it at Kelli, thank you very much. Have a great weekend.

ARENA: You too.

BROWN: Kelli Arena at the Justice Department.

Tonight, Michael Elliott is with us. He's an editor-at-large at "TIME" Magazine, recognized experts on bin Laden and al Qaeda, and a good friend of the program, nice to see you.

MICHAEL ELLIOTT, EDITOR-AT-LARGE, "TIME MAGAZINE": Good to be here.

BROWN: Well, the glass is half full and half empty, is that how we look at this?

ELLIOTT: I think it's how we have to look at it. I think Kelli is absolutely right. But I was very struck by the fact that President Bush yesterday was prepared to say that we had either killed or captured 50 percent of the senior leadership.

That bespoke to me of a certain degree of confidence that they have not always publicly shown when they've been discussing the war against terrorism. It's absolutely true that there are thousands out there but I suspect that there are some things going on that make them feel not confident but pretty good.

BROWN: Known or unknown, some breakthrough in terms of what, an interrogation, an operation, what are you almost saying here?

ELLIOTT: I think it's a brick here and a brick there and the sure and certain knowledge that there are lots and lots of people out there who we don't know where they are. We don't know how we're going to get them. But you build a brick here and a brick there.

We have now got hold of quite a lot of the known people who were involved, either in the bombing of the USS Cole in 2000, or who were behind September the 11th. In other words, they're not the people who were on the planes.

BROWN: The money people.

ELLIOTT: The money people, yes.

BROWN: Is the Shia community in southern Iraq, the young men there is that ripe recruitment territory for al Qaeda?

ELLIOTT: That's a really good question and I honestly don't think anyone knows. If you look at the situation in Iraq at the moment with the overthrow of Saddam Hussein's regime, you would suppose on the basis that my enemy's enemy is my friend that al Qaeda operatives would be recruiting among disaffected Iraqis.

On the other hand, Iraqis have not, by and large, been over represented in the ranks of Islamic terrorists in the last 15 years. So, I don't think we quite know. I thought Kelli's point that Southeast Asia is somewhere that we have to keep an eye on is absolutely right. East Africa...

BROWN: Talking about Southeast Asia here, where are we talking about?

ELLIOTT: Indonesia, mainly.

BROWN: OK.

ELLIOTT: Indonesia because it's easier to hide, because Indonesia is an (unintelligible) that spans 3,000 miles with however many islands it is and it's easy to hide. The Bali bombing was evidence that the indigenous Islamic groups in Indonesia have made alliances with al Qaeda, logistical, financial alliances. I think the other area that we have to keep a very close eye on, and I've said this on this program many times before, is the cities of Western Europe.

BROWN: Yes.

ELLIOTT: That's where increasingly you see Algerian groups have relocated to cities in France, in Germany. Just this week you had two British passport holders...

BROWN: Right.

ELLIOTT: ...who decided they wanted to be suicide bombers in Palestine. So, I think what the destruction of the camps did, of course, was to remove the capacity that al Qaeda had to run a state within a state in Afghanistan. That's hugely, hugely important but...

BROWN: None of the...

ELLIOTT: ...it dispersed everyone.

BROWN: When you talk about Indonesia or East Africa, are any of these governments willing hosts?

ELLIOTT: No. I don't believe so. I don't think. I think the real undeniable difference between the terrorist situation now and the terrorist situation two years ago, notwithstanding all the dangers that are still out there, is that there is not and I would guess will not be in the foreseeable future a state that will allow its institutions to be taken over by terrorist organizations in the way that Afghanistan did. We should be grateful for that.

BROWN: And we are. Michael, thank you. We're grateful to have you with us tonight.

ELLIOTT: Thank you.

BROWN: Michael Elliott, "TIME Magazine." I got the name right twice in a row.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, Scott Peterson asked for a court- appointed lawyer before but now he has a famous one, Mark Geragos, the latest on that, the rest of the day's news. NEWSNIGHT continues around the world.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: From the moment she disappeared, Laci Peterson has been national news. Why this case, and not scores of others, became that is one of the unanswerable questions of both journalism and the culture. But it is news and in the matter of the accused husband another chapter was written today.

Here's CNN's Rusty Dornin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) RUSTY DORNIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Following his arrest, Scott Peterson told a judge he couldn't afford a lawyer. This time, he walked into a Stanislaus County courtroom and got a high- priced attorney, along with some high hopes.

MARK GERAGOS, ATTORNEY FOR SCOTT PETERSON: With the court's permission, I would ask to substitute in at this time.

DORNIN: Mark Geragos, labeled by a Los Angeles paper as one of the hottest attorneys of the moment, complete with a roster of celebrity clients: Gary Condit, Susan McDougal, and Winona Ryder, to name a few. He immediately earned his first victory in this case. The next time Scott Peterson goes to court, no more jumpsuit, no more shackles.

GERAGOS: If the court wants to talk about prejudicial publicity, having poster-sized pictures of him labeled as a monster in chains I don't think is somehow conducive to getting a fair trial.

DORNIN: A fair trial, something that has worried Scott Peterson's family.

(on camera): His family has stepped up to the mike many times to defend Scott. But, this time, there seemed to be a stronger sense of optimism.

SUSAN CAUDILLO, SISTER OF SCOTT PETERSON: He just comes with a lot of -- a lot of qualities that we want to provide Scott with, just the best defense attorney that he can have.

DORNIN: Outside the court, Geragos and his parade, showing reporters his dancing ability, whatever the question.

QUESTION: Mark, are you concerned about the comments that you made on Larry King coming back in this case?

GERAGOS: Coming back where?

QUESTION: Well, the comments you made publicly about this case

(CROSSTALK)

GERAGOS: Well, I didn't see my name on the witness list.

DORNIN: Geragos says he has his homework cut out for him this weekend, taking home more than 5,000 pages of discovery, back in court on Monday for some pretrial legal wrangling, Geragos promising reporters a better sense of his strategy in the case.

Rusty Dornin, CNN, Modesto, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Where missing children are concerned, there are so few happy endings, which is why so many people were so heartened and tonight so saddened by the case of Eli Quick. The latest from CNN's Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): It looked so promising. The little boy from North Carolina we'd seen in the pool missing for two years, looked just like this bedraggled boy who turned up outside Chicago. They had similar speech impediments, scars in the same places. But the would-be miracle turns out instead to be coincidence.

TOM KNEIR, CHICAGO FBI: The two children are not identical.

FLOCK: Chicago FBI agent Tom Kneir says a DNA test proves it.

RAVEN MYERS, MOTHER OF BUDDY MYERS: Then I got all worked up and my hopes up for nothing.

FLOCK: The test proves Raven Myers, the topless dancer from North Carolina, is not the mother of the boy in Chicago, Eli Quick. Her own little Buddy Myers, who would be 6 now, is still missing.

MYERS: I don't want nobody to call me up until they have results or DNA or they know for sure, because I don't want to keep going through this.

FLOCK: Raven Myers' bad news is Ricky Quick's good.

RICKY QUICK, ALLEGED FATHER OF BUDDY MYERS: I'm buying stuff for my son and I'm looking forward to getting him back.

FLOCK: Quick, who believes he's Eli's father, brought him to this Evanston, Illinois, hospital in February and essentially abandoned him dirty and poorly cared for, says social workers. He'll have to answer for that, they say, before he gets Eli back. He hasn't yet.

QUICK: No more comment. That's it. Get out of my way.

FLOCK: And he'll have to prove Eli is his, the product of an affair with a Chicago prostitute, as he claims.

JILL MANUEL, ILLINOIS DEPARTMENT OF CHILDREN AND FAMILY SERVICES: We were piecing together the pieces of this puzzle. It's been like a detective novel for us.

FLOCK: A novel, the story of one missing little boy with a possible miracle ending turns out instead to be two sad stories, neither of which yet has an end, happy or otherwise.

I'm Jeff Flock, CNN, in Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: a big setback for campaign finance reform; and the story of postal hijinks, how the Postal Service's inspector general is spending money.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Still ahead: At 11:00 Eastern, we go back to Birmingham for a reunion of people who were on the front lines of the civil rights protest 40 years ago; and then a story of segregation that remains: high school students and their whites-only prom.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Campaign finance now. The story keeps coming up because the heart of the question never really goes away. Does regulating political contributions inevitably add up to limiting political speech?

Today, a federal appeals court declared much of the McCain- Feingold campaign finance law unconstitutional.

Here's CNN's Tim O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TIM O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Backers of the law said it would remove the corrosive influence of big money on elections. Opponents said it was the law itself that was corrosive, violating the First Amendment right to free speech.

In a sprawling 1,600-page treatise, the three-judge panel handed both sides victory and defeat. The court did uphold a ban on issue advocacy within 60 days of an election, but only in the narrowest of circumstances, when the ad is "suggestive of no plausible meaning, other than an exhortation to vote for or against a specific candidate." The lawyer leading the attack on the law says he'll appeal.

A more conservative group wants to do an ad praising President Bush's position and successes in the war in Iraq, can it really be that that can be a crime? Well, under the new statute, maybe.

O'BRIEN: Fred Wertheimer has been crusading for campaign finance reform for more than 30 years. He and other supporters of the law say they won more than they lost.

FRED WERTHEIMER, DEMOCRACY 21: Like the restriction that federal office-holders and candidates cannot raise these huge contributions and the political parties can't use these soft-money funds to run ads about federal candidates.

O'BRIEN: But the court ruled political parties can still raise and spend soft money for other activities, such as getting out the vote, that the law's provisions to the contrary violate free speech, a mixed bag to Wisconsin Democrat Russ Feingold, one of the moving forces behind the law. SEN. RUSS FEINGOLD (D), WISCONSIN: See, look, I think that there are potential loopholes being created here that the Supreme Court needs to close. And I hope they will. I don't like those parts of the decision.

O'BRIEN: The law specifically allows the case to go directly to the Supreme Court, bypassing other appeals.

(on camera): And the exceptional importance of this case could persuade the judges to move swiftly. The next election is only a year and a half away. And the money game has already begun.

Tim O'Brien, CNN Financial News, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So, OK, true or false, team spirit is a good thing? Don't answer yet. Wait until you've seen this report on the flap surrounding the way one Washington official has gone about this team spirit thing.

The report from CNN's Jonathan Karl.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This mock striptease is said to be part of a department bonding session conducted by the U.S. Postal Service's Inspector General.

According to current and former employees, it's part of the unusual management style of Carla Corcoran the Postal Service's internal watchdog charged with rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We work on quality products and services.

KARL: Tapes shot by current and former employees of Corcoran, and obtained by CNN from a former employee, show team building retreats where Corcoran allegedly requires some of her 750 employees to do things like dress up as cats, sing songs like the Village People, and work on group activities like building gingerbread houses. This photo shows employees lifting Corcoran up with strings during a team building session.

Corcoran now finds herself under fire from lawmakers, including Senators Byron Dorgan and Ron Wyden who say she has wasted more than $3 million on the employee retreats. They want her fired. Citizens Against Government Waste agrees.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The inspector general should be spending every single minute of every day focused on eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse, not on absurd team-building exercises.

KARL: But Corcoran says the charges are unfair and misleading. She says the team building sessions cost $73,000 not millions. In a written statement, Corcoran who was appointed by Bill Clinton in 1997, said: "I have no plans to resign and I stand by the performance of my agency, which has identified more than $2.2 billion in savings and cost avoidances to the U.S. Postal Service and rate-payers over the past six years."

Corcoran says the kind of team-building exercises she uses are unusual in government, but are common practice in corporate America. In fact, the consultants she hired to work with her employees has also done work for dozens of Fortune 500 companies, including American Express and IBM.

Jonathan Karl, CNN, Capitol Hill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, if we had an ironic news segment, this would be tonight's installment. It seems that one of the country's best-known proponents of virtue has a vice.

William Bennett, the former secretary of education, the former drug czar, the author of "The Book of Virtues," and a very successful public speaker and writer against immoral excesses of the age is himself, according to "Newsweek" magazine and "Washington Monthly," a gambler on a huge scale. He likes the $1,000 slot machines and video poker, the publications say. And he may, Mr. Bennett may have gone through as much as $8 million in his time in casinos.

Mr. Bennett is unapologetic. He says he gambles to relax, has all his life, grew up liking church bingo. It's not, he says, a moral issue for him. And like most gamblers, he says he's broken about even over the years, which, according to the article, made one casino worker laugh.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: time to think about our stomachs. And why not? So we've brought Nigella Lawson in from Nigella Bites. She joins us in a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, we like to think we offer a bill of fare around here. Most nights, we think of it as food for thought, fresh as we can get it. But we're pretty fond of actual food as well and always happy to welcome as a guest Ms. Nigella Lawson, writer, host of her own Style Network television program and has a new book out, "Forever Summer." Pleasure to watch her in the kitchen and very nice to have her here. And like every good guest, she brought goodies.

(LAUGHTER)

NIGELLA LAWSON, HOST, "FOREVER SUMMER WITH NIGELLA": I'm trying to ingratiate myself with you, Aaron.

BROWN: Oh, not necessary. What is it, by the way?

LAWSON: It's a white chocolate and almond torte. You see, it's really very, very low in carbs. I know that you have fallen off the Atkins wagon.

BROWN: Yes, I have fallen off. I'm about to fall off and kill myself.

LAWSON: No, no, no, well, that's really a tacky thing to say after his sad demise.

But just think of it, as I say, carb-loading and then, afterwards, you can go back refreshed and the weight will just fall off. Anyway, you don't need to lose weight. It's absurd.

BROWN: I love the raspberries.

LAWSON: I know. But you do need the raspberries, because it's...

BROWN: The difference between -- while we're eating here -- the difference between a chef and a cook?

LAWSON: Oh, all the difference in the world. I think a chef is a professional. And I'm afraid I'm stunningly, apparently, unprofessional and disorganized. But, really, a chef...

BROWN: You don't think yourself as a chef?

LAWSON: I'm not at all a chef. I have no training. I'm a journalist. And, somehow -- I used to cook a lot to put off the evil hour when I would have to write my column. And then, somehow, the food took over.

But a cook is really -- cooking at home is an intimate matter. And cooking in a restaurant is a theatrical affair. And so they're very different. Well, that's quite apart from -- as I say, I don't have the skills or expertise. But then it's kind of a very odd contemporary notion that experts are what matter. But it's even sillier, I think, in the sense of in food, because we all eat and we all have taste buds. And I don't think you need training to be allowed to express that.

BROWN: Do you think people, to be a good cook, need to be able to open the pantry and see a bunch of ingredients and say, if I took a little of that, a little of this, and a little of that and put it on a chicken, that would be great?

LAWSON: Well, that's part of it. But I think that maybe comes later.

I think, in a way, what makes a good cook is trusting your own sense of taste and not thinking cooking is some sort of abstract ideal of perfection, but just thinking, you know, I like the taste of lemon or, I quite feel like I want the flavor of oregano. So it's really about deconstructing it. I think it's not about kind of thinking about the end product. It's rather more kind of feeling your way as you go, like the rest of life, really.

BROWN: How can you say that you like beets?

(LAUGHTER)

LAWSON: Ah. Well, I like beets mostly, in fact, when they're raw.

BROWN: Because there's a beet salad in the book.

LAWSON: There is, but it's raw. There's two beet salads. One is raw. And I think that raw, which is a very unusual way of eating beets, kind of can redeem one's memory of the beet. Do you know how -- that sort of putrid flabbiness it has?

And I think that raw, it's kind of sort of nutty and fresh- tasting. If I'd known you had this prejudice, I would have brought you in a beet salad to see if I could change your

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: It wouldn't have worked. There are just certain foods that people -- and beets are one of them. Anchovies, which I love, are another. People either love anchovy or don't want to be near anchovy. But if you cook with anchovy and it sort of dissolves into whatever the sauce is you're making, it's incredibly wonderful flavor.

LAWSON: That's true. I know. When I use anchovies in a recipe, I always counsel people not to announce that at the table, because there are any number of eaters who think they don't like anchovies. But if they don't know they're there, as you say, then they love it.

BROWN: But you throw the anchovy on a pizza and people...

LAWSON: Well, that's always because they're those horrible little oversalty, dried-up ones, whereas, if you get an anchovy which hasn't been irradiated within an inch of its life, then it's going to taste of something rather than just of sort of metallic burn.

BROWN: What's the -- if it was your last meal, what would it be?

LAWSON: That's a hard thing to ask a greedy person.

I think it would either be steak and chips or steak and fries, say, or roast chicken and mashed potato, or a really magnificent cheeseburger.

BROWN: How do you eat the steak?

LAWSON: Or all three.

BROWN: Yes, that would be

(CROSSTALK)

LAWSON: How do I eat the steak?

BROWN: Yes.

LAWSON: Well, I just hit it over the head and walk it into the dining room. I don't really like it that much cooked. Blue.

BROWN: What did you have for dinner tonight? LAWSON: I had some duck pate on toast. And then I had roast chicken and green beans and mashed potato, little bit of butter on the top, and very good red wine. And then, just to make me feel that really I had a very light and healthy meal, I ended on green tea.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: There you go.

The book is stunning.

LAWSON: Oh, good. I'm glad you like it.

BROWN: Best of luck on the series.

LAWSON: Oh, thank you very much.

BROWN: And I've done really well. I should take...

LAWSON: Now I want to see you...

BROWN: I should take one bite of the cake.

LAWSON: You should. you're not allowed to spit it out afterwards.

BROWN: No, I'm not. That would be terrible. I'm going to eat this, too.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: We have more. We'll be right back.

Thank you.

LAWSON: That was very, very nice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: That was good.

OK, we move on now to a story about the great American game, which is a combination of springtime and grass and hero worship and some other traditions, one of which is currently causing fans to line up for and against. We'll give you a hint. Those against think this particular tradition as bad behavior in a can.

Here's CNN's Josie Karp.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSIE KARP, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This baseball fan ran on the field and attacked an umpire in Chicago. Another fan hurled a cell phone at Carl Everett during a game in Oakland. And even though these episodes of fan unruliness are taking place in different parts of the country, they're starting in the same place. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Who's drinking here? Beer man.

KARP: The beverage of choice at the ballpark is beer. And you can find it without even leaving your seat. But to some fans, the behavior that beer often brings out is becoming unacceptable.

DAVID KALB, NEW JERSEY RESIDENT: You've got the cursing. You've got people swearing. It's one thing. We're older, but in front of 5- year-olds, they're just out of control. And the alcohol, I'm sure, is a large part of it.

FRANK ANGRISANI, BASEBALL FAN: It's a tradition. I have to drink. If I don't drink, then the game is of no interest to me.

SCOTT JACOB, BASEBALL FAN: Even now, we have little kids behind us. And I guarantee, the 25 people I'm with, three of them will be making asses of themselves by the 7th inning.

KARP: Some stadiums do offer alcohol-free family sections. And all ballparks provides vendors training for dealing with drunk fans. But that often leaves the same people selling the beer responsible for taking it away.

JAMES ELLISON, TURNER FIELD VISITOR VENDOR; The way we're taught is just, get a feel for the guy. If he's obviously drunk, then we don't sell him beer. But if he goes to me and buys two beers, then goes to somebody over here and buys two more beers, as long as he doesn't have the first two beers in his hand, we sell it to him.

KARP: Rules to regulate alcohol consumption vary widely. If Pittsburgh, you can't buy a beer in the stands after the sixth inning, while in Cleveland, beer flows until the final out. In some stadiums, the largest beer is 16 ounces. In Detroit, it's double that size.

But while an upcoming report to baseball's commissioner will outline suggested changes at all stadiums, any sweeping mandates will come at a price that baseball may not be willing to pay.

SANDY ALDERSON, MLB EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT: It's fair to say that there is a financial link between breweries and beer sales and baseball, but that's true of every sporting event in the United States.

RICHARD LAPCHICK, SPORTS SOCIOLOGIST: Beer sponsorship is probably one of its leading advertising sources for income. And, at the same time, it's quite obvious that, in order to change the behavior of fans in the stands, the amount of beer available to them has to be reduced.

KARP (on camera): Concession stand operators made more money off of beer sales last year than any other item, according to team marketing reports. And Nielsen data shows that beer companies spend more than $36 million on television advertising during Major League games. Those are MVP-type numbers in the ad game, but they could cost baseball fans in the long run. LAPCHICK: I think there are families across the country that aren't going to bring their children to a ballpark, for fear of what they might be subjected to. And that's got to erode the fan base.

ALDERSON: If you clean up the behavior that goes on in the stands routinely, then you eliminate these more notorious events, in which people are coming on the field, because you don't create as many opportunities for that to happen.

KARP (voice-over): Then the fans who drink beer and the ones who prefer cotton candy will both enjoy the game again, side by side, where they belong, in the stands.

Josie Karp, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In the next half-hour of NEWSNIGHT: race, then and now; 40 years after the Birmingham civil rights protests, we'll talk with some of the people who were on the front lines and what it's like and what's changed.

And then a story of race from today: the high school where some white students decided to have their own private prom.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Arabia of Possible Attacks Against U.S. Interests>