Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Explosions Strike Housing Compounds in Saudi Arabia; Bremer Takes Charge of Reconstruction Efforts in Iraq; U.S. Captures Dr. Germ

Aired May 12, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. There was an explosion today in Seattle but it was one planned by the government not by terrorists. It was the beginning of a massive drill to see how the country would deal with another major attack. We wish we could say that was the only explosion of the day.
But a few hours after the simulated attack in Seattle, real explosions hit western targets in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia, real people hurt and it's that story that begins the whip tonight, the latest from Andrea Koppel, Andrea a headline please.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, for weeks the State Department had been warning Americans that al Qaeda was in the final phases of planning attacks against U.S. interests in Saudi Arabia. Tonight, three explosions struck at housing compounds for expatriates in downtown Riyadh.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you, back to you at the top tonight.

New American leadership in the process of rebuilding Iraq, Suzanne Malveaux has been working that for us, so a headline Suzanne from you.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, there's a new guy in charge on the ground in Iraq. He is taking the political lead when it comes to reconstruction efforts. He is not with the Pentagon and some are calling it a shake-up. Others say it is just according to plan.

BROWN: Suzanne, thank you.

A week after capturing a most wanted Iraqi known as Mrs. Anthrax the United States now has Dr. Germ, Mike Boettcher working that. Mike, the headline.

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, she's also called the Bug Lady and the hope is that she'll be able to say where the bugs or the germs are in Iraq -- Aaron.

BROWN: Mike, thank you.

And, we'll also spend some time tonight on that massive terror drill that started out west in Seattle. Jeanne Meserve will join us for that coming up. Also coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, a fascinating story about a murder-suicide involving the police chief of Tacoma, Washington and new revelations pointing to trouble with the chief years and years before he murdered his wife.

The latest on the anthrax investigation; why a small pond in Maryland is once again the focus of intense interest.

An update on the hazing story involving teenage girls in suburban Chicago, the consequences of their action which are far more serious than they may have bargained for.

And the staggering fraud committed by a young reporter at "The New York Times." We'll look at what Jayson Blair did and how "Times" management handled it, all of that to come on Monday's edition of NEWSNIGHT.

We begin with the developments in Saudi Arabia. Only days after a commitment to pull U.S. troops out of the kingdom and just hours before Secretary of State Powell is due to visit bombers have targeted Americans in Riyadh. At least one person has died, dozens more have been hurt. There is a great deal of destruction and tonight the focus once again is squarely on al Qaeda.

We begin with CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice-over): U.S. and Saudi officials tell CNN explosions struck three upscale expatriate housing compounds, home to many Americans in downtown Riyadh in the middle of the night. One eyewitness said she heard gunfire.

HELEN, EYEWITNESS: A lot of the residents starting running about the compound I think in just shock. We didn't venture out much because we didn't know if there were people (unintelligible) terrorists within the grounds.

KOPPEL: A senior State Department official said at least one of these explosions involved a car bomb. Saudi officials say dozens were injured and another eyewitness told CNN he saw lots of ambulances.

SULEIMAN NIMER: They were taking casualties and injured people. I did ask about how many casualties. There (unintelligible).

KOPPEL: U.S. and Saudi officials strongly suspect the al Qaeda terrorist network was behind the attacks for several reasons, the coordinated timing of the explosions an al Qaeda hallmark, recent intelligence suggesting al Qaeda was in the final phases of planning attacks against U.S. interests in Saudi Arabia, and the proximity of the attacks to a house where Saudi authorities found 800 pounds of powerful explosives and other weapons just last week.

Saudi officials claimed they had foiled plans by at least 19 suspected terrorists to carry out attacks in the kingdom. Despite a nationwide appeal, no suspects have been apprehended. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: The State Department says Secretary of State Powell's trip for Riyadh set for Tuesday is still on. Now, however, an agenda which was to be dominated by post-Saddam Iraq and the Israeli- Palestinian peace process is likely to be dominated again, Aaron, by just the latest terrorist attacks -- Aaron.

BROWN: Andrea, I have a couple of quick ones I think. How long has it been known, publicly known, that Secretary of State Powell would be going to Saudi Arabia this week?

KOPPEL: Well, that's kind of difficult to say because we had known for a couple of weeks, ever since Abu Mazen, Mohammed Abbas, the new Palestinian prime minister was named that Secretary Powell would be heading out in a couple of weeks but the exact date I don't think was known until sometime late last week.

BROWN: It's a question, the underlying question is how long would al Qaeda or whoever was responsible if it's not al Qaeda have had to put this sort of attack together, how sophisticated an attack was it? Is it surprising that there was an attack in Saudi Arabia itself?

KOPPEL: Well, the answer to your first question is U.S. officials have known since they put out this travel warning earlier this month that there was something in the works in Saudi Arabia. Again, as I said in the report that al Qaeda was in the final phases of planning terrorist attacks in the kingdom.

As to whether this was obviously more complicated than a single explosion, which is again a hallmark of al Qaeda. As to the difficulty of planning an attack in the kingdom, we know there have been some but the idea that they would have something quite this expansive is something worthy of note. Again, though, remember that Osama bin Laden's home is the kingdom. This is where he's recruited many of his best terrorists.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you very much, quick work tonight, Andrea Koppel at the State Department.

Joining us from Riyadh now is Raed Qusti, the Bureau Chief for "Arab News." He's on the phone. First, just tell me what the scene is there now, what the neighborhood is like or the area is like.

RAED QUSTI, BUREAU CHIEF, "ARAB NEWS": Well, in one word I'll describe it as horrific. This operation has been well organized. I can't say whether al Qaeda is responsible or not but these people who have carried out these horrendous acts have obviously done so and prepared themselves for months if not longer.

We're talking about three or four targets hit simultaneously at once, mostly western compounds that house international residents, large western communities. Helicopters have been heard hovering around the location, police cars, ambulances. "Arab News" has spoken to a resident in one of these compounds and he has told us that some buildings have been completely destroyed. That just shows how powerful these blasts were.

BROWN: So, we're talking about, well I'll ask it as a question. Are we talking about blasts on the scale of the Khobar Towers attacks now of some years ago?

QUSTI: Well, according to what has been told to us, if we're talking about blasts that are so powerful that they ripped through main doors and shattered windows and even compounds adjacent to the compounds that received blasts were also damaged, then I'm sure we're talking about a great amount of explosives.

BROWN: And do we know if they were large truck bombs, that sort of thing? Do we know how they were detonated? Do we know any of the detail of how the attack was carried out?

QUSTI: Well, Aaron, you have to bear in mind that these compounds are very high in security, meaning that for example just last night I visited a friend in a western compound and usually these compounds do not let anyone in unless the visitor is known and security guards notify the resident inside. The visitor's name and his identity is withheld. However, that proves the theory that these people have barged in the gate using some weapons or explosives and I think pretty much that that would be the case.

BROWN: So, the explosions themselves, unlike Khobar Towers, took place within the compound not outside the compound?

QUSTI: That's correct. The reports that were received by our bureau tell us that the gunshots -- actually what was told to us that gunshots were heard before the blast and then moments later a series of blasts that ranged between two to three were heard.

BROWN: In the last several days or the last couple of weeks to your knowledge has security around these compounds and others where westerners are in Saudi Arabia, has security been increased? Has there been a general sense that something might happen?

QUSTI: I think that, well like I told you just recently usually security is high. I noticed yesterday when I was visiting a western compound here that even residents living inside the compound their cars are checked, the trunks are ordered to be opened, the hoods, and the mirror is moved about next to the car to check if there are any explosives underneath. This is certainly normal procedure but that's how it is with foreign compounds here.

BROWN: And just quickly, can you update us at all on either deaths or casualty -- or injuries?

QUSTI: We've been told that several people have been injured, and unfortunately we can not verify the exact number. We've contacted several hospitals, all of which were reluctant to tell us if there are any fatalities or not.

BROWN: OK, thank you Raed Qusti, the Bureau Chief for "Arab News" from Riyadh. We are trying to get a hold of the U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia. We may hear from him tonight. One phone number that might be helpful for those of you who know people in Saudi Arabia who may be concerned about their condition or about the condition of friends or relatives, you can call the State Department hotline from within the United States. The number is 1-888-407-4747. That's 1-888-407-4747 for more information and they should be able to help you, though as Raed indicated it's pretty chaotic right now in Riyadh.

On to other matters and we'll keep our eye on that one. On to Iraq, a headline in today's "Los Angeles Times" nicely captured the state of play there. It reads: "Surrounded by chaos, middle class takes up arms," ordinary Iraqis voting with their trigger fingers, if you will.

Tonight there's a new American administrator in Baghdad. A larger shake-up is in the works and in Washington there is a growing, if not public, sense that restoring the order to Iraq hasn't gone as well as it might have. The critics were right when they said the administration planned for war better than it planned for peace.

Here again, CNN White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): A new boss is in town. Long-time diplomat Paul Bremer arrived in Baghdad for his first day as the U.S. chief civil administrator of Iraqi reconstruction alongside the military man he would replace, retired Army General Jay Garner.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVIL ADMINISTRATOR: I think it's going to be a difficult task. We're trying to rebuild a country that lived under a very cruel (unintelligible) for 30 years but I'm impressed only in a few hours here in Basra how much has already been done by Jay Garner and his team and by the Iraqi people to get things back to more or less normal.

MALVEAUX: But Bremer's appointment is widely seen as a clear indication that the White House believes the situation in Iraq is anything but normal. Many Iraqis are still without electricity, running water, and trash collection. But the biggest threat, coalition forces acknowledge, is outside of where aid workers operate there is little security.

JACK STRAW, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: In other areas, including Baghdad, the situation is unsatisfactory. There are still too many cases of violence and lawlessness. Establishing security within the rule of law is the coalition's first priority.

MALVEAUX: Although Ambassador Bremer will report directly to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, the fact that the White House is turning over the messy job of rebuilding to a former State Department hand is an indication to many within the Bush administration that the delicate political challenges of ushering in a new Iraqi government could be better handled by a veteran diplomat than a retired military man.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Now, the White House downplayed any differences within the administration. White House Spokesman Ari Fleischer traveling with the president, and I'm quoting here: "From the president's point of view, he thinks that we have a good team on the ground but he never ruled out changes to the team" -- Aaron.

BROWN: Suzanne, does the White House publicly acknowledge that things are a mess in Baghdad and in other parts of the country because that's certainly the reporting coming out of there?

MALVEAUX: The White House publicly acknowledges that there are some improvements that need to be made but certainly that the situation is not a mess. They say that, of course, that Garner did his best that he did a decent job when it came to trying to get things off the ground.

But White House aides privately also expressing some frustration, the fact that yes from the very beginning there was a delay in him getting on the ground that there was a power vacuum that allowed some people to essentially take over, one self-proclaimed mayor of Baghdad who had to be arrested by U.S. forces, as you may recall.

So, there are still a lot of problems that need to be worked out but the White House says all along that yes there's a military component. There's also a civil component as well and that they hope the two can work together.

BROWN: Do they, on this question of why it took General Garner so long to get there, do they have an explanation for that? What's the answer to that? Why did it take so long?

MALVEAUX: Well, the Pentagon says that it was a matter of security, simply that it was too dangerous to get him in the heart of Baghdad, to get him where U.S. forces where they needed to be but some say that look, you know, politically he didn't deal with things as well, that there are many people who are competing for the leadership on the ground, that they really need somebody who's a little bit more politically savvy not only in answering to the Iraqis but also to the officials in Washington.

BROWN: OK, Suzanne, thank you. We'll have more on this tonight as well, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.

We'll take a break and NEWSNIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Robert Jordan is the U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia. He joins us from there tonight to talk briefly about the explosions that hit a western compound there. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time. What can you tell us first about deaths, injuries, anything of that sort?

ROBERT JORDAN, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA (via telephone): Well, it's been a terrible night. First of all, my condolences go out to the families of the victims and our thoughts and prayers are with them.

There appear to be, and again this is very preliminary, somewhat over 40 American injuries who have been treated in hospitals here in Riyadh. We have unconfirmed reports of a couple of American deaths but we do not have confirmation on those at this time. There of course are a number of other injuries and fatalities of people who appear to not be Americans.

BROWN: Sir, can you tell us anything about how these attacks were carried out?

JORDAN: Well, there were three residential compounds and at each of them a vehicle filled with explosive devices tried to enter the compound and penetrated in one case the gate and likely exploded at the gates of the other two. There has also been some exchange of gunfire and so these were heavily loaded vehicles with explosives that caused most of this devastation.

BROWN: Had you been and had the embassy been aware in the last several days or in the last hours even that something like this might happen?

JORDAN: We have had an elevated threat level here and passed out warnings to travelers and all of the American community here that our reports had suggested potential terrorist attacks which might have been in the final planning stages.

And then several days ago the Saudis raided a home actually near one of the three compounds hit tonight and seized over 800 pounds of explosives and grenades and other ammunition and weapons.

And so, we had been working with the Saudis and requesting them to provide enhanced security at all western compounds out of our concern that this could be evidence of final stages of planning such an attack.

BROWN: Do your instincts tell you that this is an al Qaeda operation?

JORDAN: I hesitate to speculate at this time but it's certainly a prime suspect I would say.

BROWN: Sir, what can you tell us about the Americans who live in these compounds? Are these people mostly affiliated with the oil business?

JORDAN: Not necessarily. Some house western defense contractors and one in particular housed a number of advisers to the Saudi Arabian National Guard. Others were associated with other Saudi military advisers here in the kingdom.

BROWN: Have you been to the scene yet?

JORDAN: And in most cases there were a number of non-westerners living in the compounds as well.

BROWN: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't mean to interrupt. Have you been to the scene yet? Have you seen it?

JORDAN: I have not. I have sent our senior security adviser out. Of course it's in the middle of the night here.

BROWN: Yes.

JORDAN: They're manning a command post in the embassy. We have sent our security officer to the scene of each of them to survey the situation and also have sent a number of our consular officers to each of the hospitals to assess the casualty situation there and provide what assistance we can.

BROWN: Have you been getting reports back from the people at the scene? Have they been able to describe what it looks like there?

JORDAN: To a degree. One of the compounds was surrounded by police and security and so as to one of the three he was not able to gain entry but there were large amounts of smoke coming from that one. He did report that the other two appeared to have been secured, although again this is a very preliminary report.

BROWN: I apologize. I know there are some of these questions you can't answer because you simply don't know the answers. I'm trying to get a sense, sir, I guess of the magnitude of this. Are we talking about explosions of the magnitude of Khobar Towers?

JORDAN: Well, again, it's hard to say given the information we have. The 800 pounds of explosives that were seized several days ago would have made a very large impact on a building the size of Khobar Towers.

The Bunnell (ph) compound which is one of the three that was hit this past night had a multi-story apartment, dormitory building, that was very heavily damaged by the pickup truck bomb that struck it. So, I would characterize it as a very substantial attack on that particular building. There's a great deal of rubble around it as has been reported to me.

BROWN: Have you had communications with the Saudi government and would you expect that the Saudi -- that the Saudis will both aggressively investigate and cooperate because, as you know, there's always been some contention about how cooperative they were where Khobar Towers was concerned?

JORDAN: Right. I think they've learned some lessons from that experience, as we all have, and I spoke immediately, of course, with senior Saudi officials who have assured me that all appropriate steps are being taken to both secure the compounds, to increase security to other facilities, to investigate all of the events surrounding this attack, and to pursue those responsible for it.

BROWN: And, Mr. Ambassador, for those viewers watching us tonight who may have friends, relatives, family over there, is there anything you can -- anything you want to say to them, anything they should know that we have not covered in this conversation? JORDAN: Well, first of all I think it's very important for them to make sure they're in contact with the State Department. I can give you a toll free number for them to call for continued information from our State Department Task Force. That number is 1-888-407-4747, and if they're calling from outside the U.S., they can call 317-472-2328.

As for the Americans in Riyadh who may be watching your program, we simply ask that they call the embassy 488-3800, Extension 1124, or 1129, if they can provide us any information of casualties or damage to their compounds or other information they think we should have. But, again, my condolences, my heart goes out to the families of these victims of this terrible and cold-blooded attack.

BROWN: Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time. In all our conversation about who did it and how the Saudis react and all the rest, we ought not lose sight of the most important fact right now which is that 40, perhaps as many as 40 Americans have been injured, perhaps two deaths, and as you said at the beginning our thoughts and prayers are with their families tonight. This is a horrible thing that has happened. It's a reminder of the war on terrorism apparently is a long way from over. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time.

JORDAN: Yes, sir, thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, the American Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Robert Jordan.

Again, three explosions hitting western compounds, a lot more will become known here. We always say this in early reporting and we'll say it again, these initial casualty numbers, particularly, are bound to be wrong. It may end up to be 30 it may end up to be 50, and it may be more and it may be less than that but those are the best estimates of people on the ground at the U.S. Embassy tonight and we'll just keep track of both those numbers and the investigation whether it is al Qaeda or not al Qaeda and all of the rest as we go along.

On to other matters now, Iraq once again, and the search for weapons of mass destruction once again last week, the woman known as Mrs. Anthrax surrendered to American forces. Today, Dr. Germ is in custody as well. And, between the two, investigators now have more to go on in the search for what they hope will be the remnants of Iraq's biological weapons program, reporting for us tonight CNN's Michael Boettcher.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOETTCHER (voice-over): Dr. Rihab Taha, AKA Dr. Germ, and the Bug Lady, who directed Iraq's biological weapons program, CNN has exclusively obtained the United Nations English translations of her Arabic work papers. Her research was conducted here at a location well known to U.N. arms inspectors (unintelligible) 300 miles west of Baghdad. Her notes begin with the test objective. Her written words are read by a narrator.

NARRATOR: A field experiment was conducted to disperse biological agents, botulinum toxin and spores of bacillus subtilus, an anthrax simulant, by exploding 122mm al-Boraq rockets. The rockets were filled with a biological agent. A cloud was formed that moved downwind near the ground surface.

BOETTCHER: The tests were a success.

NARRATOR: We have proved the effect of the botulinum toxin and its field use. Eighty percent of the experimental animals perished.

BOETTCHER: Taha then described the success of their tests using an anthrax simulant in artillery rockets.

NARRATOR: When exploding the rockets, it was found out that the highest spores rate was in the locations that were near to the explosion, specifically within the first circle of 20 meters diameter. Neither the metal of the rocket container, nor the blast temperature, had any effect of the spore's vitality.

BOETTCHER: And she revealed success in a 1989 test using aerial bombs to disperse biological agents.

NARRATOR: In a previous study prepared by us, military dispersal, 250 kilogram aerial-bombs were used to disperse bacterial toxins and biological agents. It was a successful method.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOETTCHER: In Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, it's believed that Dr. Taha knows where the skeletons are buried and hopefully where the germs are buried, too.

And, U.S. officials hope, if some of those materials, biological or chemical warfare weapons, left Iraq and got into the hands of terrorists, like the ones that struck in Saudi Arabia tonight, that she will know that, too, perhaps -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, that's an uncomfortable thought.

No one questions that Iraq had a chemical and biological program. The question on the table has been: Did it end some point after the 1991 Gulf War. Was she still -- do your sources believe she was still in charge of that program in run-up up to the current war?

BOETTCHER: My sources believe she was key in the program, not in charge of the program. The Iraqis -- when we originally broke this story, the Iraqis tried to say that she was a retired housewife. That is simply not true. She was the mother of the program, continued to be involved in the program. You don't walk away from that in Iraq, Aaron.

BROWN: No, but you could be thrown out. And there are examples of people who were running programs who were dismissed from those programs. Do, again, your sources believe that, in the run-up up to the war, that that program still existed, that those weapons are somewhere, and that she may or may not -- we'll find out -- she may or may not know the answer, but that the program was alive coming up to the war?

BOETTCHER: Yes, that the program was alive. That's what my sources tell me. And that persisted, Aaron. While I was in Iraq and I was embedded with special operations forces, the belief was very strong that they were there, but they had been moved and perhaps moved out of Iraq to adjacent countries.

BROWN: To adjacent countries?

BOETTCHER: Yes.

BROWN: Where?

BOETTCHER: We don't know precisely. And before I make that statement, I need to do some more checking. But that was...

BROWN: That's fine with me. That's a tantalizing little tidbit to drop at the end, Michael. Thank you.

BOETTCHER: You're welcome.

BROWN: Mike Boettcher in Atlanta tonight.

We started out by saying the government began a mock terrorism drill out West today and in other parts of the country. We'll take a look at that and much more on what's proving to be a busy Monday night on NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Earlier today, here on CNN, John Miller, who runs the police anti-terrorism program in Los Angeles, was asked about the terrorism drills taking place this week in Seattle and Chicago and a host of other communities around the country, drills that seem all of the more relevant given the events in Saudi Arabia tonight.

And he said he hoped the unexpected would happen, that things would go wrong, because there's nothing to learn otherwise. The first simulated attacks happened today in Seattle and Tacoma.

Reporting for us, CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The contaminated scene meant investigators could not jump in quickly, but 5 1/2 hours into the exercise, they had determined, from license plates at the explosion site and other intelligence, that they were dealing with a theoretical international terrorist group.

SGT. CARMEN BEST, SEATTLE POLICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: A great concern that we would have at this point is, is this one of a series of planned attacks? Was this a premature explosion? Was it a planned explosion? Is it in relationship to other planned terrorist events that may be happening here or elsewhere in the country? MESERVE: At emergency command centers like this in Washington state and Washington, D.C., the integration of federal state, and local response efforts are being tested, particularly interesting in light of the recent creation of the Department of Homeland Security.

CLARK KIMERER, DEPUTY CHIEF, SEATTLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Certainly, if we have nothing else from this reorganization, this massive reorganization of government, we certainly should have clearer lines of authority, responsibility and accountability. It will be interesting to see how that plays out in an exercise that has national implications.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: Participants knew an awful lot about this exercise before it began. Whether it's because of that or whether it's because Seattle is exceptionally well prepared, one impartial observer tells me that the local response thus far has gone exceptionally well.

Now, tomorrow the first simulated cases tomorrow of pneumonic plague show up in the city of Chicago. That begins the second phase of this exercise, which, when all is said and done, will involve 8,500 people and cost $16 million -- Aaron.

BROWN: Who is monitoring all of this, somebody sitting above it all watching the first-responders respond and then grading them?

MESERVE: Not a somebody, a lot of somebodies.

Here in the city of Seattle, we are told there are about 100 people involved in the evaluation. They're walking around with clipboards while this is in play, taking notes on exactly how things are playing out. That's all going to be blended together and they hope to come up with an after-action report. We're supposed to get the first readout on this from Tom Ridge on Friday. There will then be an after-action conference in about 30 days in which some of the major participants will hash things over, then a final after-action report probably at the end of September -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you very much -- Jeanne Meserve out in Seattle tonight. Thank you.

We'll talk with Patrick Tyler of "The New York Times" about the chaos in Baghdad. We'll take a break first.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: new leadership in the battle to win the peace in Iraq. Patrick Tyler of "The New York Times" joins us live from Baghdad.

A break first. We're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Patrick Tyler joins us now. He's in Baghdad reporting on Ambassador Bremer and the management shakeup that appeared on this morning's front page of "The New York Times," a story he helped write.

It's good to see you again.

The impression in the story, Patrick, is that it is -- that the wild west essentially has returned to Baghdad.

PATRICK TYLER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, it's getting there on some days.

Just over the weekend, the humanitarian organization CARE said that two of its vehicles had been hijacked at gunpoint. Someone broke into their warehouse and shot one of their security guards in the leg. There is gunfire erupting regularly almost every hour around the town. And there is a sense that the vacuum has radiated out in all directions and kids who were out looting are coming back and working systemically and causing a lot of trouble.

BROWN: Is it just that? Is it just a sense of lawlessness, a sort of disorganized anarchy? Or is it -- well, is it something else? I was about to say, is it something worse, but I'm not sure that organized lawlessness is worse than disorganized lawlessness. Is it just that?

TYLER: Well, of course, there is the big concern that some remnant of the Saddam Fedayeen, the organizations that were part of the security apparatus of the Iraqi regime, are organizing to create and to exploit the chaos and contribute to it and turn it against the United States.

We had two soldiers who were shot, one by a sniper, one at point- blank range last week. So there is some systemic and malevolent organization out there aimed at U.S. forces, the mine attacks on the road near the airport. There is also just chaos and lawlessness. You have to remember that Saddam Hussein led 140,000 prisoners out of the prison system last fall. And these weren't just political prisoners. A small percentage were. A large percentage were just criminals. And that is adding to this chaotic mixture on the streets.

BROWN: Will Americans there, Americans -- or administration officials, people either in the military or on the political side, acknowledge that they have miscalculated how difficult it would be to bring order to Baghdad and to the country?

TYLER: I think they weren't willing to do that initially and are now, because of the dramatic nature of this personnel change, the overhaul of the entire -- or reconstruction mission out here. They're having to do that.

People are saying: We didn't see the consequences of the systemic breakdown that was occurring in security and economy and social life and the health system, all of this conspiring together to magnify the chaos. I think they're admitting it now. They're recognizing that the security system is dire and is affecting every other sector and, until they get security back on the streets, it is a threat to the ability to actually get the country moving again.

BROWN: Is there -- just a final question -- is there a sense that, unless something happens fairly quickly, this thing could get badly out of control real fast?

TYLER: Oh, I think people are very, very alarmed, the leaders. Massoud Barzani, who I saw yesterday, the Kurdish chieftain is extremely worried. Some of Iraq's neighbors are extremely worried. And one of Jay Garner's assistants told me yesterday that there is a sense that the country is teetering on the brink of falling into something that would be very hard to recover from.

BROWN: Patrick, thank you for getting up early, early this morning. We appreciate your joining us. And we always appreciate your work. Thank you very much -- Patrick Tyler, the chief correspondent for "The New York Times."

And speaking of "The New York Times": the uproar at "The Times" over the promising young reporter who had a problem, to say the least, with the truth.

We'll take a break first. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We can only imagine the depth of anger being felt in the newsroom of "The New York Times."

Yesterday, the paper, in four pages, detailed the lying, fabrication and plagiarism of a young up-and-coming reporter. The piece is what you'd expect from "The Times." The incident was not. How a reporter, any reporter, could so long deceive both his editors and managers, his subjects and "The Times"' readers are questions that will be asked for years. No answer will satisfy.

No paper in this country is as important as "The New York Times." And while no news organization is perfect, for a century and a half, "The Times" has represented the best in this business. The story of reporter Jayson Blair represents the absolute worse.

How did it happen and what does it say about "The Times" and the people who run it are questions on the table for us tonight, beginning with some background from CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Sunday's "New York Times" told the story in 14,000 words splashed across four full- sized pages, the biggest black eye in its 152-year history. A "Times" reporter, 27-year-old Jayson Blair, had written dozens of stories that were either wrong, fabricated or plagiarized from other papers.

In spite of repeated warnings from his editors, Blair had been assigned a prominent role in reporting big stories like the Beltway sniper tale, although his exclusive reporting had been flatly challenged by the authorities. ROBERT HORAN, FAIRFAX CO. ATTORNEY: I want the media to know that, particularly the media that follows like lemmings behind "The New York Times" and says whatever "The New York Times" says, as if it's gospel. They've been wrong before and they're wrong on this one.

GREENFIELD: Blair was finally undone by his reports from the family of a Gulf War casualty, complete with powerful false descriptions of the home and quotes ripped off from another paper. Blair resigned last week and is now said to be hospitalized with emotional problems. What remains are some hard questions.

Howard Kurtz of "The Washington Post" and CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" broke the Blair story.

HOWARD KURTZ, "RELIABLE SOURCES": Jayson Blair told so many lies, had so many problems, both in his personal life and with his journalistic corrections and with his expense accounts, that it is really hard to understand, in retrospect, how it is that it took "Times" management so long to catch on to the fact that this guy was a fraud.

GREENFIELD: It's hardly the first time a major news outlet has been embarrassed. "The Washington Post" had to return a Pulitzer Prize in 1981 when it learned that reporter Janet Cooke had made up the story of an 8-year-old heroin addict. NBC was shaken when a "Dateline" expose in 1992 rigged a truck rigged to explode.

"The New Republic" published a series of stories by writer Stephen Glass that were wholly inventions. And, in 1988, CNN suffered its own big embarrassment when it retracted a story alleging that U.S. forces had used nerve gas in Southeast Asia.

Now the spotlight is on "The Times" and its recently named executive editor, Howell Raines. Why were the warnings ignored? Did the paper's commitment to diversity lead it to put Jayson Blair on the fast track? And the fallout from all this is likely to go well beyond "The New York Times."

KURTZ: People are not going to forget this. And, unfortunately, it's going to cast doubt not just on "The Times," but all of journalisms among those who are skeptical about whether reporters just simply make things up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD: For the record, we asked "The New York Times" to provide us with an editor to talk about this. They declined our invitation.

One more quick point, Aaron. In recent months, Howell Raines has come under attack for political reasons. Some of his critics have charged that he has turned the front page, the news pages, of "The Times" into a reflection of "The Times"' editorial page. For those who have a political problem with "The Times," this incident is going to provide much grist for their mills.

BROWN: We've got a bunch of questions. In a moment, Alex Jones will join us to talk about them. Jeff will stay around.

Earlier today, we talked with "New York Times" columnist Bob Herbert about life in "The Times" and the newsroom and throughout the organization now that the Blair fraud has been uncovered.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Do you feel the newspaper has been seriously damaged by the revelations of the "reporting" -- in quotes -- of the last few days?

BOB HERBERT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's been damaged. I mean, I don't know if you can calculate it as serious. It's a serious problem, obviously. It's embarrassing and it goes to the credibility of a news organization that is based fundamentally on its reputation for being credible.

So it hurts a great deal. And the op-ed columnists don't work in the newsroom, but we know a lot of the reporters and editors. And if you walk around the newsroom, the pain is palpable down there on the third floor.

BROWN: That's what I was going to ask next. Is it the talk of the newsroom, the sorrow of the newsroom these days?

HERBERT: Yes, both, both. It's the talk of the newsroom. People, to some extent, can't believe it's happened. You want to know how did it happen. You want to know what steps are being taken to prevent it from occurring again, although it's hard to believe this sort of thing would occur again, because, from my perspective, this is really pathological behavior.

In all my years, decades in the news business, I've never seen an individual go off like this, you know, making up stories, plagiarizing stories, not even going to the cities that he claimed to be reporting from. Howell Raines, the editor, made what I felt was a significant point. All of us in this business, whether in newspapers or television or wherever, you can't protect yourself against a reporter who is going to set out to deliberately falsify information. I mean, you have to trust that the reporter is acting in good faith. Otherwise, your news organization falls apart entirely.

BROWN: Are you concerned that people will use this to attack diversity in the newsroom or affirmative action, any of those things?

HERBERT: Oh, I think people are already attacking both. Am I condition about it? Sure, I'm concerned about it. But folks who want to -- folks who hold that position to start with, who are, in some sense, against diversity or who are opposed to affirmative action, it's hard to change their minds with rational arguments or discussions.

And they will use this to attack both of those things. And I see both diversity and affirmative action as very good and necessary things. So, to the extent that this might harm efforts in that direction makes me somewhat sad. But we'll get past it. BROWN: Someone wrote last week that, if it were a middle-aged white reporter, he never would have been given as many chances, as many mistakes. Do you think there's any truth in that?

HERBERT: I have seen cases where white reporters have, over substantial periods of time, made up stuff and put them in newspapers and been fired and that sort of thing. And they were given chance after chance after chance, even though red flags were being waved, you know? Warning flags were out there.

So it's easy to jump on this case and try to make it a racial situation. I mean, I think that it's not. When white reporters have been fired for making up stories and putting them in the newspapers, the stories the next day on television and in the papers don't say, a white reporter for this publication was busted. They just say that this reporter or a veteran reporter or some other kind of reporter was caught doing the wrong thing.

But you get used to that after a while. Race is a big problem in this country. A lot of people are obsessed with it. So people like to see things in a racial context.

BROWN: Mr. Herbert, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Bob Herbert, we talked to him earlier today, columnist for "The New York Times."

As we continue on a Monday, we'll talk a little bit more about the uproar at "The Times." Jeff Greenfield is still here. I'm also joined by Pulitzer Prize-winner Alex Jones.

We've got more to do. We'll take a break first. Our coverage continues in moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Continuing now our discussion on the scandal at "The Times."

Jeff Greenfield is with us. Joining us also: Alex Jones. Mr. Jones is the director of the Shorenstein Center for Press, Politics and Public Policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government.

Alex, you said a fascinating thing the other day. You talked about all those people who were quoted, but never interviewed and never complained, people who read things they -- that Mr. Blair said they said. They knew they never talked to him and they never called "The Times" to complain. Why?

ALEX JONES, SHORENSTEIN CENTER ON THE PRESS, POLITICS AND PUBLIC POLICY: I think this is what the real problem here is that goes even well beyond the appalling behavior of Jayson Blair, Aaron. The thing is that, when people read in "The New York Times" -- this is not "The National Enquirer" -- it's "The New York Times" -- a story that they knew was not just mistaken, had mistakes in it, but was absolutely false, was made up -- false quotes, the guy had never been there, hadn't talked to them -- they sort of shrugged and said, "Well, what do you expect?" and didn't do anything.

And I think that is an appalling kind of response. The response I think the "Times" would have expected -- I would have expected -- would have been, Oh, my God, some guy's out there doing these things in the name of "The New York Times," my God, we got to let them know.

No, there was no response like that at all. And I think that if people had that kind of, shrug, well, of course, business as usual, "The Times" either knows or doesn't care, I think that that is a perception, if it's about "The New York Times," it's also about every other news organization in this country.

And that is a very dangerous thing. And I think that the American media has got to do something about this. I think that this is not just about a guy who went off his tracks. I think it's something more.

BROWN: Jeff, I saw you cringe at various points.

GREENFIELD: Well, it's true that's there's -- that there are often -- and in "The Times" particularly -- lacks of mechanism for complaint. But you heard in the piece that I did that during -- in the coverage of the Beltway sniper, the top law enforcement official at a press conference said, "The New York Times" story is flatly false.

And it also raises the question, did anybody at "The Times" hear that statement and think, Oh, that's just a disgruntled public official who doesn't like our coverage, or did they, in the wake of the past red flags, say, Maybe we better go back and check this?

So, yes, there's a question about the response of the readers, but even when people had a problem and said so very publicly, there didn't seem to be anything done about it.

BROWN: It's hard to (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

JONES: That's just not the case.

BROWN: Go ahead.

JONES: I mean, the -- the -- I mean, this was in "The Times." I mean, they went back to this guy and tried to get him to tell them what the mistakes were. They followed it up, in that particular case, very, very carefully. But they -- the guy would say, I'm not going to tell you what his mistakes were. I mean, they did -- actually did track him down and ask him very explicitly what was wrong.

I mean, there's no question that "The Times" has mishandled this, and the hindsight judgments are clear. But I think they thought they were handling a guy who had mistakes, who was mistake-prone and careless. They didn't think they were dealing with somebody and really didn't seem, as far as I can tell, to have reason until recently to believe that they had somebody who was making stuff up. That's a different category of mistake.

BROWN: The -- years ago, I don't know if they still do this, but years ago newspaper out in Seattle, "Seattle Times," used to make an effort to contact virtually everyone its reporters wrote about to say, Was the story accurate or fair? I've been written about a little bit by "The New York Times." No one's ever called me and asked me that.

Does "The Times" have a reputation of not following up with subjects of stories to see if they're accurately reported?

JONES: Well, "The Times" -- the way "The Times" operates is the way most major newspapers operate. The reporter is the fact-checker. There is no fact checking. And the reporter is expected to, you know, be able to offer evidence, if it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if it's called upon.

But the -- no, there is not. And I think that's something that "The Times" ought to do something about. I would -- I think that you can't probably fact-check in retrospect every story. But I think certainly you could have a fact-checking retrospective on a random basis of a story that every single reporter at the paper does at least once a year.

I think that would be something that would be a demonstration.

One of the things that Bob Herbert said, I don't buy, and that is that nothing can be done about this. I think that there is something that can be done about it, not to eliminate it, perhaps, but certainly to address the question and do it in a public way so that the American public has some better sense that the American press cares about the accuracy of what's in its products.

And I think that one of the things they might do is make it much easier and much more sort of publicly easy to let people know at the newspaper, if you spot something that is wrong, and then act on that, follow that up.

I think that the -- you know, the pattern here, repeatedly, was that people did seem to know that Jayson Blair was doing outrageous things, and repeatedly did not respond.

BROWN: Jeff, 15 seconds last word. How much damage to "The Times" and to journalism?

GREENFIELD: Damage because of the respect that "The Times" has developed over 150 years, the last place in the world you would expect this to happen would be at that newspaper. And I can see down the road two months from now in a political argument or any argument, somebody saying, Well, you know, "The New York Times" says -- and before he finishes the sentence, somebody says, Right, sure.

BROWN: Right.

GREENFIELD: I think it's a -- I think it -- it's not going to be permanent, paper's not going to shut down. But it's a real blow.

BROWN: Jeff, thank you. Alex, as always, thank you. Appreciate your time tonight.

I expect we'll be talking more about this again. Thank you.

We'll update the headlines, take a break. NEWSNIGHT continues in a moment.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We cannot imagine what Mother's Day was like yesterday for two little kids in Tacoma, Washington, 5 and 8 years old. The day before was their mother's funeral, and it was their father who killed her, right before killing himself.

What makes this story more than just one family's tragedy is that the father was the police chief in Tacoma, and his crime has uncovered along and sordid history that makes one wonder how he got that job to begin with.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): David Brame, on the surface, at least, seemed the perfect choice to be the Tacoma, Washington, chief of police. The son of a cop, he rose up through the ranks.

But appearances can be deceiving, and David Brame was a man with secrets even before he shot and killed his estranged wife, then shot himself in a Tacoma parking lot.

MAYOR BILL BAARSMA, TACOMA, WASHINGTON: It's been a nightmare, really, for our community. It's been very difficult for all of us. We're going through a process of grieving and trying to work it through.

BROWN: And there is much to work through and many questions to answer, including this. Did some city officials cover up the fact that Brame had been accused of date rape more than a decade ago, a claim some investigators found credible? It is one of the questions that has turned a local crime into a federal investigation.

JOHN MCKAY, U.S. ATTORNEY, WESTERN WASHINGTON: We certainly believe that potential federal criminal violations have occurred here, and we're going to investigate them.

CHIEF DAVID BRAME, TACOMA POLICE DEPARTMENT: I want to be the chief that unifies the department, that is a change agent...

BROWN: This blue-collar town was sure it had found the right man to lead its department. But it seems there was much Tacoma did not know about its young police chief, and more the city didn't understand. BRAME: We're going to live leadership by example. We're not going to be a theory on paper. We're going to get out with the community. We're going to extend our hand first.

BROWN: His life was unraveling. Shortly after being promoted chief, his marriage fell apart. And these court papers, filed by his wife, say he threatened to kill her. But even before that, long ago, there were signs of instability.

This evaluation form, more than 20 years old, carried a recommendation that he not even be allowed to become a cop in the first place. And two city officials recommended that his badge and his gun be taken away the day before the shootings -- warnings that were not heeded.

SHERRY BOCKWINKEL, WOMEN FOR JUSTICE: There were so many steps along the way to have prevented this that just one person doing their job correctly, we probably could have avoided this and many others. This is just one example of some of the problems that the city of Tacoma's been having.

BROWN: This man, the Tacoma city manager, Ray Korpez (ph), has been placed on paid leave because he was the official who originally promoted Chief Brame. And the first person named to replace the chief has also been removed because of questions she misused her power at Brame's behest.

LARA HERMANN, ATTORNEY: They'll give me a fake name like Pam and say, Right now my husband has a loaded gun, and it's sitting on her kitchen table.

BROWN: And this Tacoma attorney says she and others are starting to get phone calls from spouses of other policemen, both in Tacoma and from other parts of the country, saying that domestic abuse by their husbands is common.

HERMANN: The society has moved forward to understand a lot about domestic violence lately, but we need to break through the ceiling on police officers. They have a tight-knit police family that they still want to keep it within the family, and we need to penetrate that and break that.

BROWN: Crystal Brame lived for more than a week after the shooting. Her funeral here over the weekend attracted an overflow crowd of mourners, and there was a rally in her memory at a local park just hours after the ceremony.

And today, state officials say, their investigation has a single overriding goal.

CHRISTINE GREGOIRE, ATTORNEY GENERAL, WASHINGTON: The question really is, why was Crystal Brame murdered? Why wasn't something done about it? What can we do to assure it never happens again?

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: More on the story with David Zeeck, the executive editor of "The News Tribune" in Tacoma, Washington. This is the hometown paper, and it has been a huge hometown story.

David, it's good to have you with us.

Just 30 seconds...

DAVID ZEECK, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "THE NEWS TRIBUNE," TACOMA, WASHINGTON: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: ... on the city. Is it fair to describe Tacoma as a city that has somewhat of an inferiority complex living in the shadow of Seattle?

ZEECK: I think that was true for a lot of Tacoma's history. I don't think it's so much true any more. There's a whole economic region that's kind of growing up around Tacoma called the South Sound, and I think that sort of second-city status is waning or has waned a lot in the last 10 years or so.

BROWN: OK. Let's just talk about some of the specifics of all of this. If there's a federal crime, what do you believe the federal crime might be?

ZEECK: The first speculation, Aaron, is going toward violations of constitutional rights, or someone like a David Brame or another police officer misusing the authority that they have and the power that they have to violate someone else's civil rights.

Nobody's been specific about it, though, so we really don't know yet.

BROWN: The accusation on the table against the woman appointed to succeed the chief, can you explain that simply, what it is that the concern is there?

ZEECK: Sure. When the investigation began, the Washington Highway Patrol has been looking into allegations some of which were made in Crystal Brame's divorce paperwork that Catherine Woodard (ph), that assistant chief, had repeatedly threatened Crystal Brame about the divorce or about allegations of David Brame's cruelty or abuse. That hasn't been proven yet, but that's where the Washington Highway Patrol was headed.

And then as you heard today, apparent violations of federal law have been detected, and the FBI may get involved as well.

BROWN: Now, there's -- there are these three, I guess -- I count three other incidents we ought to try and get to. Who knew, within the city of Tacoma, of the date rape allegation?

ZEECK: A few police officers did, one who was a friend of David Brame's who actually put the rape victim and Brame together and heard Brame admit that he'd raped her and apologize for it. Then there was the detective, two detectives, actually, did the internal affairs investigation, one of whom has given a deposition where he concluded that he believed a rape did occur, though he thought it could not have been proved at the time.

And then maybe another couple of officers within the department, within the command structure, whom that detective had spoken with.

BROWN: Anyone involved in making the decision that David Brame would become the chief of police know about that allegation?

ZEECK: That's something that we're looking into a lot these days. We don't know for sure. The city manager has said he was not aware of that allegation before he hired David Brame. But the city personnel department, the human resources people, said that in the course of their vetting of David Brame, they ran across allegations of past conduct that could be embarrassing to the city.

Now, they have not said whether that involves the rape allegation directly or how much they knew, but those are obviously questions we want to get at as soon as possible, because that'll tell us who knew what when, and who might have been able to act to prevent him from becoming chief. We just don't know yet, Aaron.

BROWN: And the same, the same general question, who in the chain of command in the city of Tacoma would have made the appointment of Chief Brame, knew that at least in 1981, there was concern about whether someone with his temperament should be allowed to become a police officer at all?

ZEECK: It seems pretty clear that someone knew the general outlines of what was going on, that somebody knew that allegations involving date rape or nonconsensual sex were involved. That was -- in that internal investigation, that internal affairs investigation, determined those charges could not be sustained.

And it might have been characterized as something less than rape to city officials. Again, we don't know that, but we're going to find that out in the next few weeks.

BROWN: Are you satisfied, and perhaps journalists are never exactly satisfied on points like this, but are you satisfied that the city of Tacoma is being forthcoming in the way it needs to be to get all of the unanswered questions answered?

ZEECK: Not completely, Aaron, to be direct about it. Tacoma city officials, on a couple of occasions since this event, and certainly beforehand, have a habit of trying to decide or discuss a lot of things behind closed doors. And that's one thing that we at the newspaper are trying to change, and I think a lot of citizens are trying to get them to change so that more of this discussion takes place in the open.

So I don't think we're satisfied that it's as open as it could be, but I do think at this juncture they're trying to cooperate. They've told people within city government to be sure and talk to all the investigators. I'm not aware of anyone who hasn't talked to the investigators. They've also told city employees if they want to talk to the press, that's fine with them.

BROWN: David, the paper has just done a terrific job on the story, wonderful job on the story.

ZEECK: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: Expect you'll continue to. Thanks for your time tonight. David Zeeck, the executive editor...

ZEECK: Appreciate it.

BROWN: ... of "The News Tribune" in Tacoma, Washington. Used to be "The Tacoma News Tribune," but they shortened it up.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, Robert MacNeil joins us. That's a treat. He joins us to talk about his new book, "Looking for My Country." A few other things as well. It seems to be a night to talk about the business.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On a night when we spent too much of our time in the shadows of very serious journalistic fraud, it is comforting and fortunate that we be joined tonight by a journalist and newsman known for his credibility and integrity.

Robert MacNeil joins us tonight, talk about a 40-year career in journalism, a reporter for Reuters, the BBC, NBC, and, of course, anchor of "The MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour" on PBS. Also written a book, "Looking for My Country."

And we're most happy to have him with us. Nice to meet you (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ROBERT MACNEIL, JOURNALIST: Thank you very much. Thank you.

BROWN: Long time.

It seems not all great anchormen come from Canada, but at least without I know of did.

MACNEIL: Well, there are several. There are several, oh, God.

BROWN: There's something about growing up in Canada that made you a better reporter?

MACNEIL: I don't know. Gave me a little distance on this country, and...

BROWN: That helpful?

MACNEIL: ... and so reporting on it. Yes, a little bit, I think. Sometimes my heart didn't stir or my heartbeat quicken when a native-born American's heart might have... BROWN: Yes.

MACNEIL: ... quickened. But...

BROWN: You covered civil rights?

MACNEIL: Yes. I covered a lot of civil rights...

BROWN: Civil rights. I know you did...

MACNEIL: ... in '63...

BROWN: ... the Goldwater campaign.

MACNEIL: Yes, yes. And I covered the Kennedy White House and civil rights in the summer of '63, Birmingham and Cambridge, Maryland, mostly.

BROWN: Must have been, arriving in Birmingham, to cover the American civil rights movement, I would think detachment...

MACNEIL: From London.

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MACNEIL: I had (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- I had just moved from England...

BROWN: Yes.

MACNEIL: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

BROWN: Would actually be quite helpful and quite strange.

MACNEIL: It was strange to me, because I had never had any direct experience of segregation before. And to go to Birmingham for the first time -- I remember going to a liquor store to buy a half- bottle of Scotch, and there was an entrance for blacks and an entrance for whites. There were men's rooms with urinals on both sides. That was very strange to me.

I had a Southern grandmother who actually is -- she was a real piece of work. And she figures a lot in this book, because my mother and she, her mother, had such antagonistic relations that I think it made my mother very anti-American, which she was...

BROWN: Yes.

MACNEIL: ... and that colored a lot of my upbringing. But anyway, I had this Southern grandmother. And I had noticed when I was a little boy in Halifax, Nova Scotia, she would take me to the market there, where there were a lot of blacks in the market. And she behaved differently to them than she behaved to white people. And that stuck with me.

But I had never encountered anything as vicious or awful as when I actually experienced the segregation in the flesh.

BROWN: You've lived in the States a long time.

MACNEIL: Yes.

BROWN: And the book is, in part, this sort of who-are-you, where-are-you, where-do-you-belong.

MACNEIL: Yes, yes.

BROWN: So where do you belong? Are you an American now after all these years?

MACNEIL: Yes, yes. Yes, well, I became an American citizen only in '97 after a lot of cogitating, but I realized this is where I really belong. I had two American grandparents, but I grew up -- John Kenneth Galbraith, who also grew up in Canada, told me once...

BROWN: British Columbia, I think, right?

MACNEIL: No, in Ontario.

BROWN: Ontario?

MACNEIL: Yes. He was the Ontario Scot. He wrote a wonderful book about it.

But anyway, he told me once in an interview, I grew up with a very thin sense of nationalism. And so did I. And for a long time, I leaned towards Britain, I worked a long time there. But gradually America grew on me, and I became, I guess, embedded is the in-word at the moment.

And -- but what really pushed me over the edge emotionally was September 11, watching you, among others. And I suddenly felt defensive about this country in a way I never had. And that's when I really emotionally knew that...

BROWN: Half a minute.

MACNEIL: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Do you miss it? Do you miss the daily grind of journalism?

MACNEIL: No, no. I got out of it because I'd done it long enough.

BROWN: You'd had enough.

MACNEIL: Yes, I'd had 40 years of it, and that's (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

BROWN: On a day like September 11, did you miss it?

MACNEIL: Yes, then I did. And I went back to the "Newshour" for a little bit.

BROWN: Yes.

MACNEIL: I also discovered how hard it is to do after you haven't done it for a while.

BROWN: But 15 seconds on the state of American journalism, better or worse than 10 years ago?

MACNEIL: Well, I think television...

BROWN: More complicated.

MACNEIL: Oh, it's much more complicated. The market is so different. And it is more a market and market-driven. I think that's the reality that is different from when I grew up in the business.

BROWN: It's a great pleasure to meet you.

MACNEIL: Oh, my pleasure, thank you.

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), best of luck with the book. Oh, just -- any time you want to come back and just chat about anything, do.

MACNEIL: Well, thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Robert MacNeil.

We'll take a break. We'll take a look at tomorrow morning's papers in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: People complain we rush this segment. It's really rushed tonight. We got way behind on time, so I'll do four or five quickly.

"The South Florida Sun Sentinel" newspaper, "Why Johnny Can't Breathe," top of the front page, a story about problems within the schools and in the air quality within the schools. Saudi explosions also hit the front page of "The South Florida Sun Sentinel," which is Fort Lauderdale, I believe.

One minute left. Oh, my goodness.

Down at the bottom of "The Oregonian," they also made the bombings with -- in their front page. It'd be tough for some papers, but not out West. "Officials Think al Qaeda Behind Terrorists in -- Terrorist Attacks in Saudi Arabia."

"The New York Times," beaten up on them enough, might as well put this in. Down at the bottom of the front page, "Speaking Her Mind, Using Her Checkbook," John Kerry's wife, Theresa Heintz, who is going to be a very interesting character to watch as the campaign unfolds, and "The Times" profiling her. Quickly, "The Dallas" -- Well, I should go quickly. You don't have to. "The Dallas Morning News," "Democrats Disappear." The Democrats walked out on the house of representatives, causing all sorts of trouble in the fine state of Texas, and that's the lead there.

And that's all we got. We're back tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Do come back and join us, please. Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Bremer Takes Charge of Reconstruction Efforts in Iraq; U.S. Captures Dr. Germ>


Aired May 12, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. There was an explosion today in Seattle but it was one planned by the government not by terrorists. It was the beginning of a massive drill to see how the country would deal with another major attack. We wish we could say that was the only explosion of the day.
But a few hours after the simulated attack in Seattle, real explosions hit western targets in Riyadh in Saudi Arabia, real people hurt and it's that story that begins the whip tonight, the latest from Andrea Koppel, Andrea a headline please.

ANDREA KOPPEL, CNN STATE DEPARTMENT CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, for weeks the State Department had been warning Americans that al Qaeda was in the final phases of planning attacks against U.S. interests in Saudi Arabia. Tonight, three explosions struck at housing compounds for expatriates in downtown Riyadh.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you, back to you at the top tonight.

New American leadership in the process of rebuilding Iraq, Suzanne Malveaux has been working that for us, so a headline Suzanne from you.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, there's a new guy in charge on the ground in Iraq. He is taking the political lead when it comes to reconstruction efforts. He is not with the Pentagon and some are calling it a shake-up. Others say it is just according to plan.

BROWN: Suzanne, thank you.

A week after capturing a most wanted Iraqi known as Mrs. Anthrax the United States now has Dr. Germ, Mike Boettcher working that. Mike, the headline.

MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, she's also called the Bug Lady and the hope is that she'll be able to say where the bugs or the germs are in Iraq -- Aaron.

BROWN: Mike, thank you.

And, we'll also spend some time tonight on that massive terror drill that started out west in Seattle. Jeanne Meserve will join us for that coming up. Also coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight, a fascinating story about a murder-suicide involving the police chief of Tacoma, Washington and new revelations pointing to trouble with the chief years and years before he murdered his wife.

The latest on the anthrax investigation; why a small pond in Maryland is once again the focus of intense interest.

An update on the hazing story involving teenage girls in suburban Chicago, the consequences of their action which are far more serious than they may have bargained for.

And the staggering fraud committed by a young reporter at "The New York Times." We'll look at what Jayson Blair did and how "Times" management handled it, all of that to come on Monday's edition of NEWSNIGHT.

We begin with the developments in Saudi Arabia. Only days after a commitment to pull U.S. troops out of the kingdom and just hours before Secretary of State Powell is due to visit bombers have targeted Americans in Riyadh. At least one person has died, dozens more have been hurt. There is a great deal of destruction and tonight the focus once again is squarely on al Qaeda.

We begin with CNN's Andrea Koppel.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL (voice-over): U.S. and Saudi officials tell CNN explosions struck three upscale expatriate housing compounds, home to many Americans in downtown Riyadh in the middle of the night. One eyewitness said she heard gunfire.

HELEN, EYEWITNESS: A lot of the residents starting running about the compound I think in just shock. We didn't venture out much because we didn't know if there were people (unintelligible) terrorists within the grounds.

KOPPEL: A senior State Department official said at least one of these explosions involved a car bomb. Saudi officials say dozens were injured and another eyewitness told CNN he saw lots of ambulances.

SULEIMAN NIMER: They were taking casualties and injured people. I did ask about how many casualties. There (unintelligible).

KOPPEL: U.S. and Saudi officials strongly suspect the al Qaeda terrorist network was behind the attacks for several reasons, the coordinated timing of the explosions an al Qaeda hallmark, recent intelligence suggesting al Qaeda was in the final phases of planning attacks against U.S. interests in Saudi Arabia, and the proximity of the attacks to a house where Saudi authorities found 800 pounds of powerful explosives and other weapons just last week.

Saudi officials claimed they had foiled plans by at least 19 suspected terrorists to carry out attacks in the kingdom. Despite a nationwide appeal, no suspects have been apprehended. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KOPPEL: The State Department says Secretary of State Powell's trip for Riyadh set for Tuesday is still on. Now, however, an agenda which was to be dominated by post-Saddam Iraq and the Israeli- Palestinian peace process is likely to be dominated again, Aaron, by just the latest terrorist attacks -- Aaron.

BROWN: Andrea, I have a couple of quick ones I think. How long has it been known, publicly known, that Secretary of State Powell would be going to Saudi Arabia this week?

KOPPEL: Well, that's kind of difficult to say because we had known for a couple of weeks, ever since Abu Mazen, Mohammed Abbas, the new Palestinian prime minister was named that Secretary Powell would be heading out in a couple of weeks but the exact date I don't think was known until sometime late last week.

BROWN: It's a question, the underlying question is how long would al Qaeda or whoever was responsible if it's not al Qaeda have had to put this sort of attack together, how sophisticated an attack was it? Is it surprising that there was an attack in Saudi Arabia itself?

KOPPEL: Well, the answer to your first question is U.S. officials have known since they put out this travel warning earlier this month that there was something in the works in Saudi Arabia. Again, as I said in the report that al Qaeda was in the final phases of planning terrorist attacks in the kingdom.

As to whether this was obviously more complicated than a single explosion, which is again a hallmark of al Qaeda. As to the difficulty of planning an attack in the kingdom, we know there have been some but the idea that they would have something quite this expansive is something worthy of note. Again, though, remember that Osama bin Laden's home is the kingdom. This is where he's recruited many of his best terrorists.

BROWN: Andrea, thank you very much, quick work tonight, Andrea Koppel at the State Department.

Joining us from Riyadh now is Raed Qusti, the Bureau Chief for "Arab News." He's on the phone. First, just tell me what the scene is there now, what the neighborhood is like or the area is like.

RAED QUSTI, BUREAU CHIEF, "ARAB NEWS": Well, in one word I'll describe it as horrific. This operation has been well organized. I can't say whether al Qaeda is responsible or not but these people who have carried out these horrendous acts have obviously done so and prepared themselves for months if not longer.

We're talking about three or four targets hit simultaneously at once, mostly western compounds that house international residents, large western communities. Helicopters have been heard hovering around the location, police cars, ambulances. "Arab News" has spoken to a resident in one of these compounds and he has told us that some buildings have been completely destroyed. That just shows how powerful these blasts were.

BROWN: So, we're talking about, well I'll ask it as a question. Are we talking about blasts on the scale of the Khobar Towers attacks now of some years ago?

QUSTI: Well, according to what has been told to us, if we're talking about blasts that are so powerful that they ripped through main doors and shattered windows and even compounds adjacent to the compounds that received blasts were also damaged, then I'm sure we're talking about a great amount of explosives.

BROWN: And do we know if they were large truck bombs, that sort of thing? Do we know how they were detonated? Do we know any of the detail of how the attack was carried out?

QUSTI: Well, Aaron, you have to bear in mind that these compounds are very high in security, meaning that for example just last night I visited a friend in a western compound and usually these compounds do not let anyone in unless the visitor is known and security guards notify the resident inside. The visitor's name and his identity is withheld. However, that proves the theory that these people have barged in the gate using some weapons or explosives and I think pretty much that that would be the case.

BROWN: So, the explosions themselves, unlike Khobar Towers, took place within the compound not outside the compound?

QUSTI: That's correct. The reports that were received by our bureau tell us that the gunshots -- actually what was told to us that gunshots were heard before the blast and then moments later a series of blasts that ranged between two to three were heard.

BROWN: In the last several days or the last couple of weeks to your knowledge has security around these compounds and others where westerners are in Saudi Arabia, has security been increased? Has there been a general sense that something might happen?

QUSTI: I think that, well like I told you just recently usually security is high. I noticed yesterday when I was visiting a western compound here that even residents living inside the compound their cars are checked, the trunks are ordered to be opened, the hoods, and the mirror is moved about next to the car to check if there are any explosives underneath. This is certainly normal procedure but that's how it is with foreign compounds here.

BROWN: And just quickly, can you update us at all on either deaths or casualty -- or injuries?

QUSTI: We've been told that several people have been injured, and unfortunately we can not verify the exact number. We've contacted several hospitals, all of which were reluctant to tell us if there are any fatalities or not.

BROWN: OK, thank you Raed Qusti, the Bureau Chief for "Arab News" from Riyadh. We are trying to get a hold of the U.S. ambassador to Saudi Arabia. We may hear from him tonight. One phone number that might be helpful for those of you who know people in Saudi Arabia who may be concerned about their condition or about the condition of friends or relatives, you can call the State Department hotline from within the United States. The number is 1-888-407-4747. That's 1-888-407-4747 for more information and they should be able to help you, though as Raed indicated it's pretty chaotic right now in Riyadh.

On to other matters and we'll keep our eye on that one. On to Iraq, a headline in today's "Los Angeles Times" nicely captured the state of play there. It reads: "Surrounded by chaos, middle class takes up arms," ordinary Iraqis voting with their trigger fingers, if you will.

Tonight there's a new American administrator in Baghdad. A larger shake-up is in the works and in Washington there is a growing, if not public, sense that restoring the order to Iraq hasn't gone as well as it might have. The critics were right when they said the administration planned for war better than it planned for peace.

Here again, CNN White House Correspondent Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): A new boss is in town. Long-time diplomat Paul Bremer arrived in Baghdad for his first day as the U.S. chief civil administrator of Iraqi reconstruction alongside the military man he would replace, retired Army General Jay Garner.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. CIVIL ADMINISTRATOR: I think it's going to be a difficult task. We're trying to rebuild a country that lived under a very cruel (unintelligible) for 30 years but I'm impressed only in a few hours here in Basra how much has already been done by Jay Garner and his team and by the Iraqi people to get things back to more or less normal.

MALVEAUX: But Bremer's appointment is widely seen as a clear indication that the White House believes the situation in Iraq is anything but normal. Many Iraqis are still without electricity, running water, and trash collection. But the biggest threat, coalition forces acknowledge, is outside of where aid workers operate there is little security.

JACK STRAW, BRITISH FOREIGN SECRETARY: In other areas, including Baghdad, the situation is unsatisfactory. There are still too many cases of violence and lawlessness. Establishing security within the rule of law is the coalition's first priority.

MALVEAUX: Although Ambassador Bremer will report directly to Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, the fact that the White House is turning over the messy job of rebuilding to a former State Department hand is an indication to many within the Bush administration that the delicate political challenges of ushering in a new Iraqi government could be better handled by a veteran diplomat than a retired military man.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Now, the White House downplayed any differences within the administration. White House Spokesman Ari Fleischer traveling with the president, and I'm quoting here: "From the president's point of view, he thinks that we have a good team on the ground but he never ruled out changes to the team" -- Aaron.

BROWN: Suzanne, does the White House publicly acknowledge that things are a mess in Baghdad and in other parts of the country because that's certainly the reporting coming out of there?

MALVEAUX: The White House publicly acknowledges that there are some improvements that need to be made but certainly that the situation is not a mess. They say that, of course, that Garner did his best that he did a decent job when it came to trying to get things off the ground.

But White House aides privately also expressing some frustration, the fact that yes from the very beginning there was a delay in him getting on the ground that there was a power vacuum that allowed some people to essentially take over, one self-proclaimed mayor of Baghdad who had to be arrested by U.S. forces, as you may recall.

So, there are still a lot of problems that need to be worked out but the White House says all along that yes there's a military component. There's also a civil component as well and that they hope the two can work together.

BROWN: Do they, on this question of why it took General Garner so long to get there, do they have an explanation for that? What's the answer to that? Why did it take so long?

MALVEAUX: Well, the Pentagon says that it was a matter of security, simply that it was too dangerous to get him in the heart of Baghdad, to get him where U.S. forces where they needed to be but some say that look, you know, politically he didn't deal with things as well, that there are many people who are competing for the leadership on the ground, that they really need somebody who's a little bit more politically savvy not only in answering to the Iraqis but also to the officials in Washington.

BROWN: OK, Suzanne, thank you. We'll have more on this tonight as well, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House.

We'll take a break and NEWSNIGHT continues in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Robert Jordan is the U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia. He joins us from there tonight to talk briefly about the explosions that hit a western compound there. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time. What can you tell us first about deaths, injuries, anything of that sort?

ROBERT JORDAN, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO SAUDI ARABIA (via telephone): Well, it's been a terrible night. First of all, my condolences go out to the families of the victims and our thoughts and prayers are with them.

There appear to be, and again this is very preliminary, somewhat over 40 American injuries who have been treated in hospitals here in Riyadh. We have unconfirmed reports of a couple of American deaths but we do not have confirmation on those at this time. There of course are a number of other injuries and fatalities of people who appear to not be Americans.

BROWN: Sir, can you tell us anything about how these attacks were carried out?

JORDAN: Well, there were three residential compounds and at each of them a vehicle filled with explosive devices tried to enter the compound and penetrated in one case the gate and likely exploded at the gates of the other two. There has also been some exchange of gunfire and so these were heavily loaded vehicles with explosives that caused most of this devastation.

BROWN: Had you been and had the embassy been aware in the last several days or in the last hours even that something like this might happen?

JORDAN: We have had an elevated threat level here and passed out warnings to travelers and all of the American community here that our reports had suggested potential terrorist attacks which might have been in the final planning stages.

And then several days ago the Saudis raided a home actually near one of the three compounds hit tonight and seized over 800 pounds of explosives and grenades and other ammunition and weapons.

And so, we had been working with the Saudis and requesting them to provide enhanced security at all western compounds out of our concern that this could be evidence of final stages of planning such an attack.

BROWN: Do your instincts tell you that this is an al Qaeda operation?

JORDAN: I hesitate to speculate at this time but it's certainly a prime suspect I would say.

BROWN: Sir, what can you tell us about the Americans who live in these compounds? Are these people mostly affiliated with the oil business?

JORDAN: Not necessarily. Some house western defense contractors and one in particular housed a number of advisers to the Saudi Arabian National Guard. Others were associated with other Saudi military advisers here in the kingdom.

BROWN: Have you been to the scene yet?

JORDAN: And in most cases there were a number of non-westerners living in the compounds as well.

BROWN: I'm sorry, sir. I didn't mean to interrupt. Have you been to the scene yet? Have you seen it?

JORDAN: I have not. I have sent our senior security adviser out. Of course it's in the middle of the night here.

BROWN: Yes.

JORDAN: They're manning a command post in the embassy. We have sent our security officer to the scene of each of them to survey the situation and also have sent a number of our consular officers to each of the hospitals to assess the casualty situation there and provide what assistance we can.

BROWN: Have you been getting reports back from the people at the scene? Have they been able to describe what it looks like there?

JORDAN: To a degree. One of the compounds was surrounded by police and security and so as to one of the three he was not able to gain entry but there were large amounts of smoke coming from that one. He did report that the other two appeared to have been secured, although again this is a very preliminary report.

BROWN: I apologize. I know there are some of these questions you can't answer because you simply don't know the answers. I'm trying to get a sense, sir, I guess of the magnitude of this. Are we talking about explosions of the magnitude of Khobar Towers?

JORDAN: Well, again, it's hard to say given the information we have. The 800 pounds of explosives that were seized several days ago would have made a very large impact on a building the size of Khobar Towers.

The Bunnell (ph) compound which is one of the three that was hit this past night had a multi-story apartment, dormitory building, that was very heavily damaged by the pickup truck bomb that struck it. So, I would characterize it as a very substantial attack on that particular building. There's a great deal of rubble around it as has been reported to me.

BROWN: Have you had communications with the Saudi government and would you expect that the Saudi -- that the Saudis will both aggressively investigate and cooperate because, as you know, there's always been some contention about how cooperative they were where Khobar Towers was concerned?

JORDAN: Right. I think they've learned some lessons from that experience, as we all have, and I spoke immediately, of course, with senior Saudi officials who have assured me that all appropriate steps are being taken to both secure the compounds, to increase security to other facilities, to investigate all of the events surrounding this attack, and to pursue those responsible for it.

BROWN: And, Mr. Ambassador, for those viewers watching us tonight who may have friends, relatives, family over there, is there anything you can -- anything you want to say to them, anything they should know that we have not covered in this conversation? JORDAN: Well, first of all I think it's very important for them to make sure they're in contact with the State Department. I can give you a toll free number for them to call for continued information from our State Department Task Force. That number is 1-888-407-4747, and if they're calling from outside the U.S., they can call 317-472-2328.

As for the Americans in Riyadh who may be watching your program, we simply ask that they call the embassy 488-3800, Extension 1124, or 1129, if they can provide us any information of casualties or damage to their compounds or other information they think we should have. But, again, my condolences, my heart goes out to the families of these victims of this terrible and cold-blooded attack.

BROWN: Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time. In all our conversation about who did it and how the Saudis react and all the rest, we ought not lose sight of the most important fact right now which is that 40, perhaps as many as 40 Americans have been injured, perhaps two deaths, and as you said at the beginning our thoughts and prayers are with their families tonight. This is a horrible thing that has happened. It's a reminder of the war on terrorism apparently is a long way from over. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time.

JORDAN: Yes, sir, thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, the American Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Robert Jordan.

Again, three explosions hitting western compounds, a lot more will become known here. We always say this in early reporting and we'll say it again, these initial casualty numbers, particularly, are bound to be wrong. It may end up to be 30 it may end up to be 50, and it may be more and it may be less than that but those are the best estimates of people on the ground at the U.S. Embassy tonight and we'll just keep track of both those numbers and the investigation whether it is al Qaeda or not al Qaeda and all of the rest as we go along.

On to other matters now, Iraq once again, and the search for weapons of mass destruction once again last week, the woman known as Mrs. Anthrax surrendered to American forces. Today, Dr. Germ is in custody as well. And, between the two, investigators now have more to go on in the search for what they hope will be the remnants of Iraq's biological weapons program, reporting for us tonight CNN's Michael Boettcher.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BOETTCHER (voice-over): Dr. Rihab Taha, AKA Dr. Germ, and the Bug Lady, who directed Iraq's biological weapons program, CNN has exclusively obtained the United Nations English translations of her Arabic work papers. Her research was conducted here at a location well known to U.N. arms inspectors (unintelligible) 300 miles west of Baghdad. Her notes begin with the test objective. Her written words are read by a narrator.

NARRATOR: A field experiment was conducted to disperse biological agents, botulinum toxin and spores of bacillus subtilus, an anthrax simulant, by exploding 122mm al-Boraq rockets. The rockets were filled with a biological agent. A cloud was formed that moved downwind near the ground surface.

BOETTCHER: The tests were a success.

NARRATOR: We have proved the effect of the botulinum toxin and its field use. Eighty percent of the experimental animals perished.

BOETTCHER: Taha then described the success of their tests using an anthrax simulant in artillery rockets.

NARRATOR: When exploding the rockets, it was found out that the highest spores rate was in the locations that were near to the explosion, specifically within the first circle of 20 meters diameter. Neither the metal of the rocket container, nor the blast temperature, had any effect of the spore's vitality.

BOETTCHER: And she revealed success in a 1989 test using aerial bombs to disperse biological agents.

NARRATOR: In a previous study prepared by us, military dispersal, 250 kilogram aerial-bombs were used to disperse bacterial toxins and biological agents. It was a successful method.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BOETTCHER: In Iraq's weapons of mass destruction program, it's believed that Dr. Taha knows where the skeletons are buried and hopefully where the germs are buried, too.

And, U.S. officials hope, if some of those materials, biological or chemical warfare weapons, left Iraq and got into the hands of terrorists, like the ones that struck in Saudi Arabia tonight, that she will know that, too, perhaps -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, that's an uncomfortable thought.

No one questions that Iraq had a chemical and biological program. The question on the table has been: Did it end some point after the 1991 Gulf War. Was she still -- do your sources believe she was still in charge of that program in run-up up to the current war?

BOETTCHER: My sources believe she was key in the program, not in charge of the program. The Iraqis -- when we originally broke this story, the Iraqis tried to say that she was a retired housewife. That is simply not true. She was the mother of the program, continued to be involved in the program. You don't walk away from that in Iraq, Aaron.

BROWN: No, but you could be thrown out. And there are examples of people who were running programs who were dismissed from those programs. Do, again, your sources believe that, in the run-up up to the war, that that program still existed, that those weapons are somewhere, and that she may or may not -- we'll find out -- she may or may not know the answer, but that the program was alive coming up to the war?

BOETTCHER: Yes, that the program was alive. That's what my sources tell me. And that persisted, Aaron. While I was in Iraq and I was embedded with special operations forces, the belief was very strong that they were there, but they had been moved and perhaps moved out of Iraq to adjacent countries.

BROWN: To adjacent countries?

BOETTCHER: Yes.

BROWN: Where?

BOETTCHER: We don't know precisely. And before I make that statement, I need to do some more checking. But that was...

BROWN: That's fine with me. That's a tantalizing little tidbit to drop at the end, Michael. Thank you.

BOETTCHER: You're welcome.

BROWN: Mike Boettcher in Atlanta tonight.

We started out by saying the government began a mock terrorism drill out West today and in other parts of the country. We'll take a look at that and much more on what's proving to be a busy Monday night on NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Earlier today, here on CNN, John Miller, who runs the police anti-terrorism program in Los Angeles, was asked about the terrorism drills taking place this week in Seattle and Chicago and a host of other communities around the country, drills that seem all of the more relevant given the events in Saudi Arabia tonight.

And he said he hoped the unexpected would happen, that things would go wrong, because there's nothing to learn otherwise. The first simulated attacks happened today in Seattle and Tacoma.

Reporting for us, CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The contaminated scene meant investigators could not jump in quickly, but 5 1/2 hours into the exercise, they had determined, from license plates at the explosion site and other intelligence, that they were dealing with a theoretical international terrorist group.

SGT. CARMEN BEST, SEATTLE POLICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESMAN: A great concern that we would have at this point is, is this one of a series of planned attacks? Was this a premature explosion? Was it a planned explosion? Is it in relationship to other planned terrorist events that may be happening here or elsewhere in the country? MESERVE: At emergency command centers like this in Washington state and Washington, D.C., the integration of federal state, and local response efforts are being tested, particularly interesting in light of the recent creation of the Department of Homeland Security.

CLARK KIMERER, DEPUTY CHIEF, SEATTLE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Certainly, if we have nothing else from this reorganization, this massive reorganization of government, we certainly should have clearer lines of authority, responsibility and accountability. It will be interesting to see how that plays out in an exercise that has national implications.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: Participants knew an awful lot about this exercise before it began. Whether it's because of that or whether it's because Seattle is exceptionally well prepared, one impartial observer tells me that the local response thus far has gone exceptionally well.

Now, tomorrow the first simulated cases tomorrow of pneumonic plague show up in the city of Chicago. That begins the second phase of this exercise, which, when all is said and done, will involve 8,500 people and cost $16 million -- Aaron.

BROWN: Who is monitoring all of this, somebody sitting above it all watching the first-responders respond and then grading them?

MESERVE: Not a somebody, a lot of somebodies.

Here in the city of Seattle, we are told there are about 100 people involved in the evaluation. They're walking around with clipboards while this is in play, taking notes on exactly how things are playing out. That's all going to be blended together and they hope to come up with an after-action report. We're supposed to get the first readout on this from Tom Ridge on Friday. There will then be an after-action conference in about 30 days in which some of the major participants will hash things over, then a final after-action report probably at the end of September -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you very much -- Jeanne Meserve out in Seattle tonight. Thank you.

We'll talk with Patrick Tyler of "The New York Times" about the chaos in Baghdad. We'll take a break first.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And next on NEWSNIGHT: new leadership in the battle to win the peace in Iraq. Patrick Tyler of "The New York Times" joins us live from Baghdad.

A break first. We're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Patrick Tyler joins us now. He's in Baghdad reporting on Ambassador Bremer and the management shakeup that appeared on this morning's front page of "The New York Times," a story he helped write.

It's good to see you again.

The impression in the story, Patrick, is that it is -- that the wild west essentially has returned to Baghdad.

PATRICK TYLER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well, it's getting there on some days.

Just over the weekend, the humanitarian organization CARE said that two of its vehicles had been hijacked at gunpoint. Someone broke into their warehouse and shot one of their security guards in the leg. There is gunfire erupting regularly almost every hour around the town. And there is a sense that the vacuum has radiated out in all directions and kids who were out looting are coming back and working systemically and causing a lot of trouble.

BROWN: Is it just that? Is it just a sense of lawlessness, a sort of disorganized anarchy? Or is it -- well, is it something else? I was about to say, is it something worse, but I'm not sure that organized lawlessness is worse than disorganized lawlessness. Is it just that?

TYLER: Well, of course, there is the big concern that some remnant of the Saddam Fedayeen, the organizations that were part of the security apparatus of the Iraqi regime, are organizing to create and to exploit the chaos and contribute to it and turn it against the United States.

We had two soldiers who were shot, one by a sniper, one at point- blank range last week. So there is some systemic and malevolent organization out there aimed at U.S. forces, the mine attacks on the road near the airport. There is also just chaos and lawlessness. You have to remember that Saddam Hussein led 140,000 prisoners out of the prison system last fall. And these weren't just political prisoners. A small percentage were. A large percentage were just criminals. And that is adding to this chaotic mixture on the streets.

BROWN: Will Americans there, Americans -- or administration officials, people either in the military or on the political side, acknowledge that they have miscalculated how difficult it would be to bring order to Baghdad and to the country?

TYLER: I think they weren't willing to do that initially and are now, because of the dramatic nature of this personnel change, the overhaul of the entire -- or reconstruction mission out here. They're having to do that.

People are saying: We didn't see the consequences of the systemic breakdown that was occurring in security and economy and social life and the health system, all of this conspiring together to magnify the chaos. I think they're admitting it now. They're recognizing that the security system is dire and is affecting every other sector and, until they get security back on the streets, it is a threat to the ability to actually get the country moving again.

BROWN: Is there -- just a final question -- is there a sense that, unless something happens fairly quickly, this thing could get badly out of control real fast?

TYLER: Oh, I think people are very, very alarmed, the leaders. Massoud Barzani, who I saw yesterday, the Kurdish chieftain is extremely worried. Some of Iraq's neighbors are extremely worried. And one of Jay Garner's assistants told me yesterday that there is a sense that the country is teetering on the brink of falling into something that would be very hard to recover from.

BROWN: Patrick, thank you for getting up early, early this morning. We appreciate your joining us. And we always appreciate your work. Thank you very much -- Patrick Tyler, the chief correspondent for "The New York Times."

And speaking of "The New York Times": the uproar at "The Times" over the promising young reporter who had a problem, to say the least, with the truth.

We'll take a break first. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We can only imagine the depth of anger being felt in the newsroom of "The New York Times."

Yesterday, the paper, in four pages, detailed the lying, fabrication and plagiarism of a young up-and-coming reporter. The piece is what you'd expect from "The Times." The incident was not. How a reporter, any reporter, could so long deceive both his editors and managers, his subjects and "The Times"' readers are questions that will be asked for years. No answer will satisfy.

No paper in this country is as important as "The New York Times." And while no news organization is perfect, for a century and a half, "The Times" has represented the best in this business. The story of reporter Jayson Blair represents the absolute worse.

How did it happen and what does it say about "The Times" and the people who run it are questions on the table for us tonight, beginning with some background from CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Sunday's "New York Times" told the story in 14,000 words splashed across four full- sized pages, the biggest black eye in its 152-year history. A "Times" reporter, 27-year-old Jayson Blair, had written dozens of stories that were either wrong, fabricated or plagiarized from other papers.

In spite of repeated warnings from his editors, Blair had been assigned a prominent role in reporting big stories like the Beltway sniper tale, although his exclusive reporting had been flatly challenged by the authorities. ROBERT HORAN, FAIRFAX CO. ATTORNEY: I want the media to know that, particularly the media that follows like lemmings behind "The New York Times" and says whatever "The New York Times" says, as if it's gospel. They've been wrong before and they're wrong on this one.

GREENFIELD: Blair was finally undone by his reports from the family of a Gulf War casualty, complete with powerful false descriptions of the home and quotes ripped off from another paper. Blair resigned last week and is now said to be hospitalized with emotional problems. What remains are some hard questions.

Howard Kurtz of "The Washington Post" and CNN's "RELIABLE SOURCES" broke the Blair story.

HOWARD KURTZ, "RELIABLE SOURCES": Jayson Blair told so many lies, had so many problems, both in his personal life and with his journalistic corrections and with his expense accounts, that it is really hard to understand, in retrospect, how it is that it took "Times" management so long to catch on to the fact that this guy was a fraud.

GREENFIELD: It's hardly the first time a major news outlet has been embarrassed. "The Washington Post" had to return a Pulitzer Prize in 1981 when it learned that reporter Janet Cooke had made up the story of an 8-year-old heroin addict. NBC was shaken when a "Dateline" expose in 1992 rigged a truck rigged to explode.

"The New Republic" published a series of stories by writer Stephen Glass that were wholly inventions. And, in 1988, CNN suffered its own big embarrassment when it retracted a story alleging that U.S. forces had used nerve gas in Southeast Asia.

Now the spotlight is on "The Times" and its recently named executive editor, Howell Raines. Why were the warnings ignored? Did the paper's commitment to diversity lead it to put Jayson Blair on the fast track? And the fallout from all this is likely to go well beyond "The New York Times."

KURTZ: People are not going to forget this. And, unfortunately, it's going to cast doubt not just on "The Times," but all of journalisms among those who are skeptical about whether reporters just simply make things up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD: For the record, we asked "The New York Times" to provide us with an editor to talk about this. They declined our invitation.

One more quick point, Aaron. In recent months, Howell Raines has come under attack for political reasons. Some of his critics have charged that he has turned the front page, the news pages, of "The Times" into a reflection of "The Times"' editorial page. For those who have a political problem with "The Times," this incident is going to provide much grist for their mills.

BROWN: We've got a bunch of questions. In a moment, Alex Jones will join us to talk about them. Jeff will stay around.

Earlier today, we talked with "New York Times" columnist Bob Herbert about life in "The Times" and the newsroom and throughout the organization now that the Blair fraud has been uncovered.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Do you feel the newspaper has been seriously damaged by the revelations of the "reporting" -- in quotes -- of the last few days?

BOB HERBERT, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": It's been damaged. I mean, I don't know if you can calculate it as serious. It's a serious problem, obviously. It's embarrassing and it goes to the credibility of a news organization that is based fundamentally on its reputation for being credible.

So it hurts a great deal. And the op-ed columnists don't work in the newsroom, but we know a lot of the reporters and editors. And if you walk around the newsroom, the pain is palpable down there on the third floor.

BROWN: That's what I was going to ask next. Is it the talk of the newsroom, the sorrow of the newsroom these days?

HERBERT: Yes, both, both. It's the talk of the newsroom. People, to some extent, can't believe it's happened. You want to know how did it happen. You want to know what steps are being taken to prevent it from occurring again, although it's hard to believe this sort of thing would occur again, because, from my perspective, this is really pathological behavior.

In all my years, decades in the news business, I've never seen an individual go off like this, you know, making up stories, plagiarizing stories, not even going to the cities that he claimed to be reporting from. Howell Raines, the editor, made what I felt was a significant point. All of us in this business, whether in newspapers or television or wherever, you can't protect yourself against a reporter who is going to set out to deliberately falsify information. I mean, you have to trust that the reporter is acting in good faith. Otherwise, your news organization falls apart entirely.

BROWN: Are you concerned that people will use this to attack diversity in the newsroom or affirmative action, any of those things?

HERBERT: Oh, I think people are already attacking both. Am I condition about it? Sure, I'm concerned about it. But folks who want to -- folks who hold that position to start with, who are, in some sense, against diversity or who are opposed to affirmative action, it's hard to change their minds with rational arguments or discussions.

And they will use this to attack both of those things. And I see both diversity and affirmative action as very good and necessary things. So, to the extent that this might harm efforts in that direction makes me somewhat sad. But we'll get past it. BROWN: Someone wrote last week that, if it were a middle-aged white reporter, he never would have been given as many chances, as many mistakes. Do you think there's any truth in that?

HERBERT: I have seen cases where white reporters have, over substantial periods of time, made up stuff and put them in newspapers and been fired and that sort of thing. And they were given chance after chance after chance, even though red flags were being waved, you know? Warning flags were out there.

So it's easy to jump on this case and try to make it a racial situation. I mean, I think that it's not. When white reporters have been fired for making up stories and putting them in the newspapers, the stories the next day on television and in the papers don't say, a white reporter for this publication was busted. They just say that this reporter or a veteran reporter or some other kind of reporter was caught doing the wrong thing.

But you get used to that after a while. Race is a big problem in this country. A lot of people are obsessed with it. So people like to see things in a racial context.

BROWN: Mr. Herbert, thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Bob Herbert, we talked to him earlier today, columnist for "The New York Times."

As we continue on a Monday, we'll talk a little bit more about the uproar at "The Times." Jeff Greenfield is still here. I'm also joined by Pulitzer Prize-winner Alex Jones.

We've got more to do. We'll take a break first. Our coverage continues in moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Continuing now our discussion on the scandal at "The Times."

Jeff Greenfield is with us. Joining us also: Alex Jones. Mr. Jones is the director of the Shorenstein Center for Press, Politics and Public Policy at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government.

Alex, you said a fascinating thing the other day. You talked about all those people who were quoted, but never interviewed and never complained, people who read things they -- that Mr. Blair said they said. They knew they never talked to him and they never called "The Times" to complain. Why?

ALEX JONES, SHORENSTEIN CENTER ON THE PRESS, POLITICS AND PUBLIC POLICY: I think this is what the real problem here is that goes even well beyond the appalling behavior of Jayson Blair, Aaron. The thing is that, when people read in "The New York Times" -- this is not "The National Enquirer" -- it's "The New York Times" -- a story that they knew was not just mistaken, had mistakes in it, but was absolutely false, was made up -- false quotes, the guy had never been there, hadn't talked to them -- they sort of shrugged and said, "Well, what do you expect?" and didn't do anything.

And I think that is an appalling kind of response. The response I think the "Times" would have expected -- I would have expected -- would have been, Oh, my God, some guy's out there doing these things in the name of "The New York Times," my God, we got to let them know.

No, there was no response like that at all. And I think that if people had that kind of, shrug, well, of course, business as usual, "The Times" either knows or doesn't care, I think that that is a perception, if it's about "The New York Times," it's also about every other news organization in this country.

And that is a very dangerous thing. And I think that the American media has got to do something about this. I think that this is not just about a guy who went off his tracks. I think it's something more.

BROWN: Jeff, I saw you cringe at various points.

GREENFIELD: Well, it's true that's there's -- that there are often -- and in "The Times" particularly -- lacks of mechanism for complaint. But you heard in the piece that I did that during -- in the coverage of the Beltway sniper, the top law enforcement official at a press conference said, "The New York Times" story is flatly false.

And it also raises the question, did anybody at "The Times" hear that statement and think, Oh, that's just a disgruntled public official who doesn't like our coverage, or did they, in the wake of the past red flags, say, Maybe we better go back and check this?

So, yes, there's a question about the response of the readers, but even when people had a problem and said so very publicly, there didn't seem to be anything done about it.

BROWN: It's hard to (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

JONES: That's just not the case.

BROWN: Go ahead.

JONES: I mean, the -- the -- I mean, this was in "The Times." I mean, they went back to this guy and tried to get him to tell them what the mistakes were. They followed it up, in that particular case, very, very carefully. But they -- the guy would say, I'm not going to tell you what his mistakes were. I mean, they did -- actually did track him down and ask him very explicitly what was wrong.

I mean, there's no question that "The Times" has mishandled this, and the hindsight judgments are clear. But I think they thought they were handling a guy who had mistakes, who was mistake-prone and careless. They didn't think they were dealing with somebody and really didn't seem, as far as I can tell, to have reason until recently to believe that they had somebody who was making stuff up. That's a different category of mistake.

BROWN: The -- years ago, I don't know if they still do this, but years ago newspaper out in Seattle, "Seattle Times," used to make an effort to contact virtually everyone its reporters wrote about to say, Was the story accurate or fair? I've been written about a little bit by "The New York Times." No one's ever called me and asked me that.

Does "The Times" have a reputation of not following up with subjects of stories to see if they're accurately reported?

JONES: Well, "The Times" -- the way "The Times" operates is the way most major newspapers operate. The reporter is the fact-checker. There is no fact checking. And the reporter is expected to, you know, be able to offer evidence, if it (UNINTELLIGIBLE) if it's called upon.

But the -- no, there is not. And I think that's something that "The Times" ought to do something about. I would -- I think that you can't probably fact-check in retrospect every story. But I think certainly you could have a fact-checking retrospective on a random basis of a story that every single reporter at the paper does at least once a year.

I think that would be something that would be a demonstration.

One of the things that Bob Herbert said, I don't buy, and that is that nothing can be done about this. I think that there is something that can be done about it, not to eliminate it, perhaps, but certainly to address the question and do it in a public way so that the American public has some better sense that the American press cares about the accuracy of what's in its products.

And I think that one of the things they might do is make it much easier and much more sort of publicly easy to let people know at the newspaper, if you spot something that is wrong, and then act on that, follow that up.

I think that the -- you know, the pattern here, repeatedly, was that people did seem to know that Jayson Blair was doing outrageous things, and repeatedly did not respond.

BROWN: Jeff, 15 seconds last word. How much damage to "The Times" and to journalism?

GREENFIELD: Damage because of the respect that "The Times" has developed over 150 years, the last place in the world you would expect this to happen would be at that newspaper. And I can see down the road two months from now in a political argument or any argument, somebody saying, Well, you know, "The New York Times" says -- and before he finishes the sentence, somebody says, Right, sure.

BROWN: Right.

GREENFIELD: I think it's a -- I think it -- it's not going to be permanent, paper's not going to shut down. But it's a real blow.

BROWN: Jeff, thank you. Alex, as always, thank you. Appreciate your time tonight.

I expect we'll be talking more about this again. Thank you.

We'll update the headlines, take a break. NEWSNIGHT continues in a moment.

(NEWSBREAK)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We cannot imagine what Mother's Day was like yesterday for two little kids in Tacoma, Washington, 5 and 8 years old. The day before was their mother's funeral, and it was their father who killed her, right before killing himself.

What makes this story more than just one family's tragedy is that the father was the police chief in Tacoma, and his crime has uncovered along and sordid history that makes one wonder how he got that job to begin with.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): David Brame, on the surface, at least, seemed the perfect choice to be the Tacoma, Washington, chief of police. The son of a cop, he rose up through the ranks.

But appearances can be deceiving, and David Brame was a man with secrets even before he shot and killed his estranged wife, then shot himself in a Tacoma parking lot.

MAYOR BILL BAARSMA, TACOMA, WASHINGTON: It's been a nightmare, really, for our community. It's been very difficult for all of us. We're going through a process of grieving and trying to work it through.

BROWN: And there is much to work through and many questions to answer, including this. Did some city officials cover up the fact that Brame had been accused of date rape more than a decade ago, a claim some investigators found credible? It is one of the questions that has turned a local crime into a federal investigation.

JOHN MCKAY, U.S. ATTORNEY, WESTERN WASHINGTON: We certainly believe that potential federal criminal violations have occurred here, and we're going to investigate them.

CHIEF DAVID BRAME, TACOMA POLICE DEPARTMENT: I want to be the chief that unifies the department, that is a change agent...

BROWN: This blue-collar town was sure it had found the right man to lead its department. But it seems there was much Tacoma did not know about its young police chief, and more the city didn't understand. BRAME: We're going to live leadership by example. We're not going to be a theory on paper. We're going to get out with the community. We're going to extend our hand first.

BROWN: His life was unraveling. Shortly after being promoted chief, his marriage fell apart. And these court papers, filed by his wife, say he threatened to kill her. But even before that, long ago, there were signs of instability.

This evaluation form, more than 20 years old, carried a recommendation that he not even be allowed to become a cop in the first place. And two city officials recommended that his badge and his gun be taken away the day before the shootings -- warnings that were not heeded.

SHERRY BOCKWINKEL, WOMEN FOR JUSTICE: There were so many steps along the way to have prevented this that just one person doing their job correctly, we probably could have avoided this and many others. This is just one example of some of the problems that the city of Tacoma's been having.

BROWN: This man, the Tacoma city manager, Ray Korpez (ph), has been placed on paid leave because he was the official who originally promoted Chief Brame. And the first person named to replace the chief has also been removed because of questions she misused her power at Brame's behest.

LARA HERMANN, ATTORNEY: They'll give me a fake name like Pam and say, Right now my husband has a loaded gun, and it's sitting on her kitchen table.

BROWN: And this Tacoma attorney says she and others are starting to get phone calls from spouses of other policemen, both in Tacoma and from other parts of the country, saying that domestic abuse by their husbands is common.

HERMANN: The society has moved forward to understand a lot about domestic violence lately, but we need to break through the ceiling on police officers. They have a tight-knit police family that they still want to keep it within the family, and we need to penetrate that and break that.

BROWN: Crystal Brame lived for more than a week after the shooting. Her funeral here over the weekend attracted an overflow crowd of mourners, and there was a rally in her memory at a local park just hours after the ceremony.

And today, state officials say, their investigation has a single overriding goal.

CHRISTINE GREGOIRE, ATTORNEY GENERAL, WASHINGTON: The question really is, why was Crystal Brame murdered? Why wasn't something done about it? What can we do to assure it never happens again?

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: More on the story with David Zeeck, the executive editor of "The News Tribune" in Tacoma, Washington. This is the hometown paper, and it has been a huge hometown story.

David, it's good to have you with us.

Just 30 seconds...

DAVID ZEECK, EXECUTIVE EDITOR, "THE NEWS TRIBUNE," TACOMA, WASHINGTON: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: ... on the city. Is it fair to describe Tacoma as a city that has somewhat of an inferiority complex living in the shadow of Seattle?

ZEECK: I think that was true for a lot of Tacoma's history. I don't think it's so much true any more. There's a whole economic region that's kind of growing up around Tacoma called the South Sound, and I think that sort of second-city status is waning or has waned a lot in the last 10 years or so.

BROWN: OK. Let's just talk about some of the specifics of all of this. If there's a federal crime, what do you believe the federal crime might be?

ZEECK: The first speculation, Aaron, is going toward violations of constitutional rights, or someone like a David Brame or another police officer misusing the authority that they have and the power that they have to violate someone else's civil rights.

Nobody's been specific about it, though, so we really don't know yet.

BROWN: The accusation on the table against the woman appointed to succeed the chief, can you explain that simply, what it is that the concern is there?

ZEECK: Sure. When the investigation began, the Washington Highway Patrol has been looking into allegations some of which were made in Crystal Brame's divorce paperwork that Catherine Woodard (ph), that assistant chief, had repeatedly threatened Crystal Brame about the divorce or about allegations of David Brame's cruelty or abuse. That hasn't been proven yet, but that's where the Washington Highway Patrol was headed.

And then as you heard today, apparent violations of federal law have been detected, and the FBI may get involved as well.

BROWN: Now, there's -- there are these three, I guess -- I count three other incidents we ought to try and get to. Who knew, within the city of Tacoma, of the date rape allegation?

ZEECK: A few police officers did, one who was a friend of David Brame's who actually put the rape victim and Brame together and heard Brame admit that he'd raped her and apologize for it. Then there was the detective, two detectives, actually, did the internal affairs investigation, one of whom has given a deposition where he concluded that he believed a rape did occur, though he thought it could not have been proved at the time.

And then maybe another couple of officers within the department, within the command structure, whom that detective had spoken with.

BROWN: Anyone involved in making the decision that David Brame would become the chief of police know about that allegation?

ZEECK: That's something that we're looking into a lot these days. We don't know for sure. The city manager has said he was not aware of that allegation before he hired David Brame. But the city personnel department, the human resources people, said that in the course of their vetting of David Brame, they ran across allegations of past conduct that could be embarrassing to the city.

Now, they have not said whether that involves the rape allegation directly or how much they knew, but those are obviously questions we want to get at as soon as possible, because that'll tell us who knew what when, and who might have been able to act to prevent him from becoming chief. We just don't know yet, Aaron.

BROWN: And the same, the same general question, who in the chain of command in the city of Tacoma would have made the appointment of Chief Brame, knew that at least in 1981, there was concern about whether someone with his temperament should be allowed to become a police officer at all?

ZEECK: It seems pretty clear that someone knew the general outlines of what was going on, that somebody knew that allegations involving date rape or nonconsensual sex were involved. That was -- in that internal investigation, that internal affairs investigation, determined those charges could not be sustained.

And it might have been characterized as something less than rape to city officials. Again, we don't know that, but we're going to find that out in the next few weeks.

BROWN: Are you satisfied, and perhaps journalists are never exactly satisfied on points like this, but are you satisfied that the city of Tacoma is being forthcoming in the way it needs to be to get all of the unanswered questions answered?

ZEECK: Not completely, Aaron, to be direct about it. Tacoma city officials, on a couple of occasions since this event, and certainly beforehand, have a habit of trying to decide or discuss a lot of things behind closed doors. And that's one thing that we at the newspaper are trying to change, and I think a lot of citizens are trying to get them to change so that more of this discussion takes place in the open.

So I don't think we're satisfied that it's as open as it could be, but I do think at this juncture they're trying to cooperate. They've told people within city government to be sure and talk to all the investigators. I'm not aware of anyone who hasn't talked to the investigators. They've also told city employees if they want to talk to the press, that's fine with them.

BROWN: David, the paper has just done a terrific job on the story, wonderful job on the story.

ZEECK: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: Expect you'll continue to. Thanks for your time tonight. David Zeeck, the executive editor...

ZEECK: Appreciate it.

BROWN: ... of "The News Tribune" in Tacoma, Washington. Used to be "The Tacoma News Tribune," but they shortened it up.

Next on NEWSNIGHT, Robert MacNeil joins us. That's a treat. He joins us to talk about his new book, "Looking for My Country." A few other things as well. It seems to be a night to talk about the business.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On a night when we spent too much of our time in the shadows of very serious journalistic fraud, it is comforting and fortunate that we be joined tonight by a journalist and newsman known for his credibility and integrity.

Robert MacNeil joins us tonight, talk about a 40-year career in journalism, a reporter for Reuters, the BBC, NBC, and, of course, anchor of "The MacNeil-Lehrer News Hour" on PBS. Also written a book, "Looking for My Country."

And we're most happy to have him with us. Nice to meet you (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

ROBERT MACNEIL, JOURNALIST: Thank you very much. Thank you.

BROWN: Long time.

It seems not all great anchormen come from Canada, but at least without I know of did.

MACNEIL: Well, there are several. There are several, oh, God.

BROWN: There's something about growing up in Canada that made you a better reporter?

MACNEIL: I don't know. Gave me a little distance on this country, and...

BROWN: That helpful?

MACNEIL: ... and so reporting on it. Yes, a little bit, I think. Sometimes my heart didn't stir or my heartbeat quicken when a native-born American's heart might have... BROWN: Yes.

MACNEIL: ... quickened. But...

BROWN: You covered civil rights?

MACNEIL: Yes. I covered a lot of civil rights...

BROWN: Civil rights. I know you did...

MACNEIL: ... in '63...

BROWN: ... the Goldwater campaign.

MACNEIL: Yes, yes. And I covered the Kennedy White House and civil rights in the summer of '63, Birmingham and Cambridge, Maryland, mostly.

BROWN: Must have been, arriving in Birmingham, to cover the American civil rights movement, I would think detachment...

MACNEIL: From London.

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

MACNEIL: I had (UNINTELLIGIBLE) -- I had just moved from England...

BROWN: Yes.

MACNEIL: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

BROWN: Would actually be quite helpful and quite strange.

MACNEIL: It was strange to me, because I had never had any direct experience of segregation before. And to go to Birmingham for the first time -- I remember going to a liquor store to buy a half- bottle of Scotch, and there was an entrance for blacks and an entrance for whites. There were men's rooms with urinals on both sides. That was very strange to me.

I had a Southern grandmother who actually is -- she was a real piece of work. And she figures a lot in this book, because my mother and she, her mother, had such antagonistic relations that I think it made my mother very anti-American, which she was...

BROWN: Yes.

MACNEIL: ... and that colored a lot of my upbringing. But anyway, I had this Southern grandmother. And I had noticed when I was a little boy in Halifax, Nova Scotia, she would take me to the market there, where there were a lot of blacks in the market. And she behaved differently to them than she behaved to white people. And that stuck with me.

But I had never encountered anything as vicious or awful as when I actually experienced the segregation in the flesh.

BROWN: You've lived in the States a long time.

MACNEIL: Yes.

BROWN: And the book is, in part, this sort of who-are-you, where-are-you, where-do-you-belong.

MACNEIL: Yes, yes.

BROWN: So where do you belong? Are you an American now after all these years?

MACNEIL: Yes, yes. Yes, well, I became an American citizen only in '97 after a lot of cogitating, but I realized this is where I really belong. I had two American grandparents, but I grew up -- John Kenneth Galbraith, who also grew up in Canada, told me once...

BROWN: British Columbia, I think, right?

MACNEIL: No, in Ontario.

BROWN: Ontario?

MACNEIL: Yes. He was the Ontario Scot. He wrote a wonderful book about it.

But anyway, he told me once in an interview, I grew up with a very thin sense of nationalism. And so did I. And for a long time, I leaned towards Britain, I worked a long time there. But gradually America grew on me, and I became, I guess, embedded is the in-word at the moment.

And -- but what really pushed me over the edge emotionally was September 11, watching you, among others. And I suddenly felt defensive about this country in a way I never had. And that's when I really emotionally knew that...

BROWN: Half a minute.

MACNEIL: ... (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Do you miss it? Do you miss the daily grind of journalism?

MACNEIL: No, no. I got out of it because I'd done it long enough.

BROWN: You'd had enough.

MACNEIL: Yes, I'd had 40 years of it, and that's (UNINTELLIGIBLE)...

BROWN: On a day like September 11, did you miss it?

MACNEIL: Yes, then I did. And I went back to the "Newshour" for a little bit.

BROWN: Yes.

MACNEIL: I also discovered how hard it is to do after you haven't done it for a while.

BROWN: But 15 seconds on the state of American journalism, better or worse than 10 years ago?

MACNEIL: Well, I think television...

BROWN: More complicated.

MACNEIL: Oh, it's much more complicated. The market is so different. And it is more a market and market-driven. I think that's the reality that is different from when I grew up in the business.

BROWN: It's a great pleasure to meet you.

MACNEIL: Oh, my pleasure, thank you.

BROWN: (UNINTELLIGIBLE), best of luck with the book. Oh, just -- any time you want to come back and just chat about anything, do.

MACNEIL: Well, thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Robert MacNeil.

We'll take a break. We'll take a look at tomorrow morning's papers in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: People complain we rush this segment. It's really rushed tonight. We got way behind on time, so I'll do four or five quickly.

"The South Florida Sun Sentinel" newspaper, "Why Johnny Can't Breathe," top of the front page, a story about problems within the schools and in the air quality within the schools. Saudi explosions also hit the front page of "The South Florida Sun Sentinel," which is Fort Lauderdale, I believe.

One minute left. Oh, my goodness.

Down at the bottom of "The Oregonian," they also made the bombings with -- in their front page. It'd be tough for some papers, but not out West. "Officials Think al Qaeda Behind Terrorists in -- Terrorist Attacks in Saudi Arabia."

"The New York Times," beaten up on them enough, might as well put this in. Down at the bottom of the front page, "Speaking Her Mind, Using Her Checkbook," John Kerry's wife, Theresa Heintz, who is going to be a very interesting character to watch as the campaign unfolds, and "The Times" profiling her. Quickly, "The Dallas" -- Well, I should go quickly. You don't have to. "The Dallas Morning News," "Democrats Disappear." The Democrats walked out on the house of representatives, causing all sorts of trouble in the fine state of Texas, and that's the lead there.

And that's all we got. We're back tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Do come back and join us, please. Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Bremer Takes Charge of Reconstruction Efforts in Iraq; U.S. Captures Dr. Germ>