Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Is it Time For Road Map to be Folded Up?; Interview With Bill Cosby

Aired June 13, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


KATE SNOW, GUEST HOST: Good evening.
When you read the road map to peace these days, it's tempting to race all the way to the end, a vision of two states it reads, Israel and sovereign, democratic, and viable Palestine living side-by-side in peace and security.

But the goal right now is how to get beyond the very first line ending the terror for Israelis, bringing a more normal life to the Palestinians, normal life judged by what we've seen this week. It is an unending cycle of bloodshed, more than 50 lives lost on both sides.

So, "The Whip" begins tonight with a bloody end to an extremely violent week in the Middle East. Kelly Wallace is in Gaza tonight, Kelly good evening, the headline please.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kate, while the attacks continue, and there were two more of them on this day, two Israeli air strikes, there are some signs of diplomatic progress. CNN has learned there could be high level security talks between Israeli and Palestinian officials as early as this weekend -- Kate.

SNOW: To Iraq now where U.S. forces fought back after being ambushed. Ben Wedeman is on that from Baghdad, Ben the headline.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate, the armed opponents to the American presence in Iraq took a severe beating today with as many as 100 killed at the hands of American forces further proof, if any was still needed, that the war here is far from over.

SNOW: On to the arrest in Thailand of a man accused of putting radioactive material up for sale. Tom Mintier is covering that tonight from Bangkok, Tom the headline please.

TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kate, one man is in jail and 66 pounds of radioactive material is in safe hands tonight after a sting operation involving Thai police and U.S. Customs took what could have been the makings of a dirty bomb off the market. We'll have the details -- Kate.

SNOW: We'll go back to all of you in just a moment.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT new questions about monkeypox, do we now have cases of the disease spreading from person to person? CNN Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen will help us sort out fact from fear.

And, one of America's best known and best loved dads, Bill Cosby, his talk with Aaron ahead of Father's Day about his new book inspired by the son that he lost, all that to come on a very busy Friday.

We begin tonight with the latest Israeli attack on Hamas, but also the big question what do the recent string of attacks on both sides mean to the chances for peace? On that score things look awfully dark, but as we learned late today there's at least still a glimmer of hope.

So, we head back to Gaza and CNN's Kelly Wallace for the latest developments.

WALLACE: Kate, we got our first glimmer of hope after a bloody and violent week on this day when Palestinian sources were telling us there is a possibility, and we stress possibility, there could be high level security talks between Israeli and Palestinian officials as early as Saturday.

But at the same time, Israeli officials say they will continue to put pressure on Hamas while Hamas says it will keep putting pressure on Israel as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE (voice-over): On Friday, Israel continued its assaults on Hamas with one attack that killed a member of Hamas' military wing and injured more than 20 others according to Palestinian hospital sources. Hours later another aerial attack targeted a Hamas weapons warehouse, Israeli military sources said.

Earlier thousands of Palestinians buried the victims of Thursday's punishing air strikes including a Hamas leader, his pregnant wife, and his one-year-old daughter.

It was also a day of tearful goodbyes in Israel as some of the 17 people killed in Wednesday's suicide bus bombing by Hamas were laid to rest. Many here fear there are likely to be more of these scenes with Israel and Hamas now saying they are in an all out war.

But why now, just after the smiles in Aqaba? Israeli officials say they came up with the plan to target Hamas leaders months ago but they implemented it only after deciding that Hamas was planning to scuttle the Mid East road map with more attacks against Israelis and Israel, analysts say, appears to be getting a green light from the White House.

LESLIE SUSSER, ISRAELI POLITICAL ANALYST: President Bush is very critical of Israel but within 24 hours this had totally turned around and the signals that Sharon was getting from Washington was that, yes, in order for the road map to go ahead Hamas must be brought to heel.

WALLACE: Hamas is now warning that the Jerusalem attack is just the beginning. Some Palestinian observers say Hamas was about to agree to a ceasefire but that the Israeli air strikes made the group reverse course. Hamas will only lose its power, says this political analyst, when Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza.

EYAD AL SARAI, PALESTINIAN POLITICAL ANALYST: Wherever there is hope there is less support of suicide bombing and violence. Wherever there is the spirit there is more popular support to suicide bombing and violence. So, here you have it. End the Israeli occupation. There would be no Hamas. We don't need it.

WALLACE: Most observers believe it will come down to American pressure to try to resuscitate the road map. The Israelis say the pressure should be on the Palestinian Authority to crack down on Hamas, but the Palestinians on the streets here say the pressure should be on the Israelis to stop their attacks.

"Where is Bush who has taken responsibility for the road map? You know what the road map means. It means the destruction of the Palestinian people" this woman said.

The new war between Israel and Hamas may not have killed the Mid East road map but left it in critical condition. It now needs intensive care to survive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And it will be getting some intensive care this weekend from U.S. Assistant Secretary of State John Wolf who will be the new point man in the region for the Bush administration and, Kate, he faces a tremendous challenge trying to breathe new life into this Mid East road map -- Kate.

SNOW: And, Kelly, do we have any idea who he is going to sit down with this weekend? I suppose that's separate from the other meetings that you're mentioning that might happen between the Palestinians and Israelis.

WALLACE: Absolutely. Our sense is first he will be meeting with Israeli officials beginning as early as Saturday night with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, his foreign minister, and his defense minister, and then by Monday or Tuesday or next week he will head to meet with Palestinian officials including Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas.

We do not expect him to meet with Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian president, because of course the American administration has been saying it wants to sideline Yasser Arafat and keep the focus on the Palestinian prime minister -- Kate.

SNOW: Kelly Wallace tonight, thanks.

Coming up a little later we're going to focus on the rise of Hamas. We'll talk to an expert about the power of that group, a group that may have more support among regular Palestinians than the leader who is supposed to be representing them at the peace table.

But first some other items from around the world. More fighting in central Iraq, day four of a U.S. operation aimed at drawing opposition holdouts into the open. It began today with an ambush by enemy forces matched against American tanks and Apaches. It was hardly an even match.

Let's go back to CNN's Ben Wedeman with the story in Baghdad -- Ben.

WEDEMAN: Yes, Kate, in the last week we really have seen a dramatic increase, an intensification of the level of U.S. military activity in western and central Iraq those the remaining strongholds of loyalty to the deposed Iraqi president.

The first incident that you just mentioned occurred 45 miles to the north of Baghdad near the town of Balad. Now in that incident a large group of well-armed Iraqi elements, according to U.S. officials, attempted to attack a tank patrol in that area just before midnight on Thursday.

It was indeed a fatal mistake. It resulted in the death of 27 of those attackers as the U.S. tanks responded to that ambush and pursued the attackers. Now, this fighting occurred in an area where one operation, Peninsula Strike, is winding down. Now, that operation involved 4,000 U.S. troops and that was the biggest operation of its type in Iraq since the end of the war.

Now, elsewhere to the northwest of Baghdad, a combined ground and air operation resulted in the death of 100 Iraqis, hostile elements we are told by U.S. officials. Now, this operation was focused on what coalition officers are describing as a terrorist training camp where they believe some of the remnants of those thousands of Arab volunteers who flocked to Iraq before and during the war came. They came, of course, to fight alongside the Iraqi forces against the U.S.- led invasion.

Now, the U.S. forces, we were told, found a large cache of surface-to-air missiles, rocket-propelled grenades, as well as AK-47s in that area. Now, despite all of this activity U.S. officials believe there still is no organized coordinated nationwide resistance movement to the American presence here -- Kate.

SNOW: Ben, back here in the U.S. though I have to say the coverage makes it seem like this is really a new phenomenon. Is this something that you're just seeing over the past few days get worse and worse?

WEDEMAN: Well, certainly the level of American activity is intensifying. There's no question about it. But, we have seen on an almost daily basis attacks against American forces. Since the beginning of May it's running at about one dead American a day and that doesn't include the wounded as well.

I spent three weeks traveling around central and western Iraq and I must say that there is a growing movement against the American presence. Now, these are the Arab Sunnis who were the core of the old regime of Saddam Hussein. They resent the American presence. They feel they are the losers in the new Iraq and they are taking up arms.

I heard persistent rumors, for instance, that the Arab Sunni tribes are organizing, I was told, an armed resistance to the American presence, so it does appear that things are going to get hotter here in Iraq this summer -- Kate.

SNOW: Ben Wedeman in Baghdad tonight thank you so much.

A lot of ugly surprises this week in the war on terrorism, last night it was a bomb discovered under the seat of an airliner in Italy. Tonight, the surprise is in Thailand where a man was arrested, accused of trying to sell the radioactive makings of a dirty bomb, the story now from CNN's Tom Mintier.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MINTIER (voice-over): It was a case nine months in the making. U.S. Customs agents and police in Thailand closed the net on a 44- year-old Thai man in the parking lot of a Bangkok hotel. Authorities say he had offered to sell the agents uranium.

It turned out to be cesium 137, not as powerful but nearly as deadly, not a small package but one that weighed more than 60 pounds. The suspect is in jail charged with possession of radioactive materials which are now also safely in custody.

The deal was to be for nearly a quarter of a million U.S. dollars, police say. The cesium apparently destined for a so-called dirty bomb, but U.S. officials indicate this may be a criminal matter rather than a terrorist act. The seller thought he was making a deal with terrorists. It ended up being Thai police and U.S. Customs agents.

Just where did the cesium come from? Police say they know it came out of Laos but believe it will trace back to Russia. The arrest of the man and seizure of the cesium follow recent arrests in both Thailand and Cambodia for alleged ties to an unspecified international terrorism plot.

Thai police are currently searching for a man who they believe is a bomb maker. They also say those arrested in Thailand had plans to bomb at least five western embassies and several tourist locations.

In announcing Friday's arrest and seizure, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security released the following statement from Secretary Tom Ridge: "Homeland Security agents worked together in partnership with Thai authorities and the U.S. Embassy on the front lines to halt the sale of these potentially dangerous materials."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MINTIER: No one is quite sure what the intended use of the cesium was. What we do know is what happens when cesium is released into the atmosphere. About the same amount of cesium was released back in 1986 at Chernobyl and what happened after that was an environmental catastrophe felt worldwide -- Kate.

SNOW: Tom Mintier working the early morning hours for us in Bangkok. We very much appreciate it Tom, thanks.

Still ahead tonight, on this Friday edition of NEWSNIGHT the rising power of Hamas a group that can't be ignored in any equation for Mid East peace.

And later Aaron's conversation with one of America's favorite fathers Bill Cosby.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Back to the Middle East now and what increasingly looks like the all-out war between Israel and Hamas. With us now in southern Massachusetts is Naseer Aruri. He's professor emeritus at the University of Massachusetts and the recent author of "Dishonest Broker," the role of the United States in Palestine and Israel.

Mr. Aruri, welcome to NEWSNIGHT. Thanks for being here.

NASEER ARURI, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS, DARTMOUTH: Thank you. It's my pleasure.

SNOW: Is the situation as we just billed it, is it more Israel versus Hamas than it is Israel versus the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas?

ARURI: Well, I think it is really more accurate to say that it is Israel versus the Palestinian people, not only the Palestinians who live in the occupied territories but all Palestinians, I mean whether they are in the Diaspora or the Palestinians in Israel itself.

I mean there is a Palestinian consensus here which is based really on two simple notions, one of which is supported by the global consensus for a long time and that is the end of the occupation and the occupation is 36 years old, and the second one is the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, which is something mentioned in the road map.

SNOW: But Hamas...

ARURI: Actually both of these are mentioned in the road map.

SNOW: But Hamas is getting, certainly getting a lot of attention for very negative reasons. They've been behind many of the recent bombings. They seem to be getting stronger politically. Is that the case? Are they growing stronger?

ARURI: Well, actually Hamas has been growing stronger, particularly during the Oslo period. You know, Hamas goes back to 1987 and I think that people might know or would like to know that there was a time that Israel used to promote Hamas as a counterweight to the secular nationalist, i.e. to the PLO.

But today things are different. Hamas has been very dissatisfied with the Oslo process, particularly with the concessions that the people kept thinking that Arafat's concessions have really bottomed out but they never seem to bottom out. And so, Hamas began to rival the PLO and to put the brakes on them in order not to keep giving up on the national rights. SNOW: And, in Gaza...

ARURI: I think I should mention here...yes.

SNOW: Sorry. In Gaza and the West Bank from what I've read Hamas it's not only, it's not just political and it's not just military but it's also, they're providing schools. They're providing social services, isn't that the case? I mean this is more than just seen as a military movement.

ARURI: Absolutely. I mean I think that Hamas' infrastructure actually their social, educational, social welfare infrastructure had remained somewhat intact compared to the infrastructure of the Palestine Authority. Maybe it would not be exactly correct to say intact. I think that all Palestinians have suffered during the past two and a half years.

But, Hamas is an organization that has a large constituency. Some relate to it ideologically and some benefit from it and some I think see it as an organization that is putting the brakes on Abbas.

I think that Hamas was dissatisfied with the speech that Prime Minister Abbas made at Aqaba in Jordan during the summit with President Bush because they felt that he said more about Palestinian violence than he said about Palestinian rights that are recognized by the international community, so their dissatisfaction...

SNOW: Would you agree though -- let me just ask you one last -- we don't have a lot of time but one last quick question.

ARURI: Sure.

SNOW: Would you agree that Hamas has got to come onboard in order for anything to move forward on the road map, and is that possible?

ARURI: Well, in fact, I think it is very possible. You see on the 25th of May, there's an article in (unintelligible) which is a leading Israeli daily, that quoted Dr. Rantisi against whom Israel launched an attack and tried to assassinate him just two days ago, Rantisi offered a ceasefire, what they call in Arabia hudna (ph), a ceasefire if the Israelis stopped targeting Hamas leaders and if they give up this policy of assassinations.

On June 2nd, a few days later, I mean just before going to the summit conference in Aqaba, Prime Minister Sharon is quoted in (unintelligible) again as saying that he insists on Abbas dismantling the infrastructure of terrorism, in other words he's saying that I don't really want your ceasefire. I want your demise. So, basically they were placed in a non-negotiable position here.

But I really believe that Hamas, just as the PLO, just as the independents in Palestine, would like to reach a settlement that would end the occupation, that would deliver them out of the misery in which they live under economic siege not knowing whether they can finish the journey when they embark on going to a school, to a hospital or some place. What they want is an end of this occupation and (unintelligible).

SNOW: Let's end it on that positive note. Let's end it on that positive and hopeful note. Naseer Aruri, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

ARURI: OK.

SNOW: Appreciate your time.

ARURI: You're very welcome indeed.

SNOW: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the spread of monkeypox as the government takes steps to get control of a situation that's out of control.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: The spread of the disease monkeypox has been troubling but very limited. I called it out of control but really it's been pretty limited. Most of the cases have been traced to contact with pet prairie dogs.

It would become a lot more troubling, though, and maybe out of control if it were found to be spreading from person to person. Today, there was fear that that had happened but as it stands right now it is still just fear, more from CNN Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here are the culprits, pet prairie dogs suspected of spreading monkeypox to people in four states, including possibly to children at a daycare center at a private home in Indiana.

At the center, the children played with prairie dogs who later became ill and died. Now, one child is in the hospital and some 16 others have recovered from symptoms of monkeypox. The Centers for Disease Control is doing tests on the children's blood.

And, in Wisconsin, a different type of outbreak, three people may have contracted monkeypox not from animals but from other people. Two healthcare workers, a nurse at this hospital and a medical assistant at a dermatologist's office, may have contracted the disease from their patients with monkeypox, and the nurse's boyfriend may have monkeypox too.

Wisconsin health officials, however, say they doubt any of them has monkeypox. Specimens from all three have been sent to the CDC and results could be ready Saturday, if they really do have monkeypox...

DR. STEVE OSTROFF, CDC: It's very important to point out this is fully expected.

COHEN: Monkeypox spreads person-to-person in Africa where it kills up to ten percent of its victims. The disease is not expected to be as deadly in the United States where there are 72 cases under investigation, 13 of which have been laboratory confirmed. Some patients have been hospitalized but no one has died.

Not as deadly because people in the United States who might have been exposed to monkeypox are being offered the smallpox vaccine. The two diseases are closely related.

(on camera): Since monkeypox does spread person to person, could it spread around the globe? Could there be another SARS type epidemic? CDC officials say probably not.

(voice-over): That's because while monkeypox does spread person to person it doesn't usually spread person to person to person.

OSTROFF: This isn't a virus that's particularly well adapted to transmission from human to human, so even if we do see cases like this occurring, after one or possibly two or three generations of this, it tends to burn itself out in humans, and so we don't think that this would be a continuous or ongoing problem.

COHEN: And how do you know if you have monkeypox? Symptoms include fever, muscle aches, rash, and large lymph nodes and exposure to exotic animals, like prairie dogs or to a person with monkeypox. So, if you haven't been playing with one of these recently, or don't know anyone who has, then there's probably no way you have monkeypox.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: That's a relief.

A few stories from around the country tonight beginning with the president in Kennebunkport, Maine, Mr. Bush finally began a long family weekend at his parents' estate by hooking a fish. He eventually scored a striped bass, which received a presidential pardon and got tossed back in.

But not everything was picture perfect for the president today, blame it on the Segway, that stand-up electric scooter with gyroscopes to help keep it and its passenger upright, right.

Mr. Bush wasn't hurt after losing his balance and spokesman Ari Fleischer was quick to spin the presidential stumble saying I thought he made a particularly excellent rebound. He looked very athletic as he emerged.

And Roger Clemens got his two milestones, two at a time. The rocket finally reached 300 wins tonight and entered an even more exclusive club. He became only the third pitcher with 4,000 strikeouts as he led the New York Yankees over the St. Louis Cardinals 5-2.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT are lawsuits with thousands of plaintiffs getting out of control? We'll talk to people on opposite sides of that issue. And later America's favorite dad Bill Cosby and his new children's book.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: This week, the house led by Republicans voted to force big class action lawsuits out of state courts and into federal courts where the plaintiffs and their lawyers tend to win less money. Politicians disagree about whether that's a good idea, so do lawyers.

We are joined by two of them. John Coale is a plaintiff's attorney. John Eisner in usually finds himself on the corporation side of the argument. Welcome to you both.

Beisner not Eisner.

Right. Correct.

SNOW: Let me start with you, Mr. Cole. The House did this in an effort to essentially restrict what they say are ridiculous lawsuits. There are too many of them. They're shopping for the venue and shopping courts to find the best place to get money.

JOHN COALE, CLASS ACTION ATTORNEY: To Republicans in corporate America, any lawsuit is frivolous and any lawsuit is no good. But there's many, many class action suits that are very good. This really comes down to the Republicans in corporate America think that the federal courts will be easier on them, and my side believes that we get better treatment in the state courts. It really boils down to that. They're form shopping by legislation. We do it by filing our lawsuits.

SNOW: Are people shopping courts?

Are groups of people looking for the best place to go?

JOHN BEISNER, ATTORNEY: They really are. There is a series of studies that have been done that indicate that there are several smaller county courts that have become magnets for the major nationwide class actions. It's become really what the "Washington Post" editorial page has called an extortion racket, where people recover money in the lawsuits. The worst part is the lawyers recover the money, the courts allow them to keep all of the money. Nothing gets to the consumers out of those courts.

SNOW: Aren't these people who have suffered, which is what you are going to say?

COALE: Yes, they are. It doesn't all go to the lawyers. It's the judge's job. The judges have to oversee this. If we had judges with more backbone, they would regulate the fees more. We don't need Congress.

BEISNER: I think the problem with that and Congress has been studying this now six or seven years. The House put out a report and in case after case, I disagree, John, it shows that the consumers don't get anything out of these lawsuits. And as you say there are judges without backbones are the judges in the state courts. This is not happening in the federal courts.

COALE: Their studies. It's Republican Congress after Republican Congress after Republican study and we know that the Republicans are out to protect their buddies, be it Enron, WorldCom or whoever from suffering. Now, poor Martha Stewart apparently didn't give enough money to the party and got popped, well that didn't happen to Kenny.

SNOW: There's a big difference this time, which is that the Republicans not only control the House, but also the Senate and there's at least some thought on Capitol Hill where I usually work this is going to go through. This is going to go all the way. The president is going to sign this bill into law and therefore restrict the suits.

COALE: It will filibuster, 60 votes are needed. They're right on the edge. They do have Orrin Hatch, a great compromiser and a real good senator, who maybe can compromise this thing and they will get a bill.

SNOW: Do you think they will?

BEISNER: I think we will get a bill. I think it will be similar to the Senate bill that passed 253 to 170 in the House. That's a bipartisan vote.

SNOW: What about the issue with coupons being given out instead of money. The bill also deals with that. That if you have a class action suit, sometimes the settlement is just coupons. Here you are go...

COALE: I agree with you, that shouldn't be done. And It's dealt with -- it's not dealt with in the bill. They said that the judges should supervise that, but the judges already do. We need judges with some backbone.

SNOW: What's wrong with the coupons?

BEISNER: The coupon settlements are a problem. They are not permitted in federal court. They don't happen in federal court. They happen in state courts. The bill would not prevent the filing of class action lawsuit. It allows more of them to be heard in federal court where we believe they're better managed.

COALE: Where there are more Republican judges.

SNOW: Do you see this as part of a bigger effort by Republicans to restrict lawyers.

COALE: Republicans don't want their friends in corporate America to be held accountable. That's obvious especially in the last year, and this is part of that.

BEISNER: We believe this bill is the -- the opposition to the bill doesn't want lawyers to be held accountable. I strongly disagree with the notion of the last 10 years -- eight of the last ten years all of the you judges in federal courts were appointed by President Clinton.

COALE: You have 12 years before that that's who is sitting.

BEISNER: You got a mix of judges.

COALE: Bush is appointing people who wouldn't know a little guy's problem if he fell on it. They do know golf, though.

SNOW: We are going to be talking about the Justices on the Supreme Court a little bit later in this show. I want to thank our two guests. Thank you both for coming in tonight on a Friday night.

John Coale, John Beisner, both with very different on class actions. Thanks very much.

As we continue, a TV network accused of stirring up trouble in Iran. We'll have the details on NEWSNIGHT in Washington.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Folk singer Woody Guthrie kept a slogan pasted to his guitar: "This machine kills fascists," it read.

And he was on to something. Few things give dictators a tougher time than another point of view, whether it comes by way of a folk song or, these days, via satellite.

Here's CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There's pure entertainment on Depeche TV (ph), fiery political commentary on Azadi, all of it beamed to an Iranian TV audience via satellite, from outside of Iran. And Iran's rulers are not happy, because this these protests in Iran this week were organized by the satellite channels, according to Iran's intelligence chief, Ali Unasi (ph), who was quoted by the AFP news service.

Where are the satellite broadcasters?

(on camera): The broadcasts are in Farsi, the sets suggest Iran. But, in fact, this is not Iran, but a part of the United States known in the Iranian community as Tehrangeles. Step outside of the studio door here and you see exactly where we are.

Azadi TV originates in this non-descript warehouse in the suburbs of Los Angeles, in the San Fernando Valley.

(voice-over): Phone calls and faxes, they say, come directly from Iran to the studio in Chatsworth. When viewers were told that CNN was in the studio, some spoke in English.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They asking for the government to leave the country and leave us alone.

BUCKLEY: Of course, there's no way to know for sure that the callers are really in Iran, but Iran's rulers are blaming the broadcasters for the current unrest.

And one of the stars of Azadi TV gladly says, "Guilty as charged."

(on camera): You make no apologies about trying to get protesters in the streets in Iran?

REZA FAZELI, AZADI TV: Not at all. I mean, this is what we try to do it.

BUCKLEY (voice-over): Reza Fazeli, who says he was a star of Iranian cinema -- he likens himself to Sean Connery -- now finds himself accused, along with other satellite broadcasters, of fomenting political upheaval.

FAZELI: The government of Iran says they can't do anything in on their own, and I -- from the Chatsworth, I can direct everybody in Iran against government. Good for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the people of Iran want is democracy in our country without any interference from any other country in the world.

BUCKLEY: At another outlet, Channel One, the set looks like it could be a backdrop for the local PBS fund drive. But instead of getting callers to pay for programming, they're trying to spark a revolution.

KANBIZ MAHMOUD, CHANNEL ONE: We can broadcast from here. No other country allow Iranian to do such a thing. So we have to take advantage of this freedom and really fight for liberty, for democracy in our country, something that we have never had.

BUCKLEY: While there's a visible allegiance to the late shah of Iran in some of the offices of the broadcasters, they claim their only agenda is freedom for Iranians.

And Reza Fazeli says he believes that day, despite the odds against it, is very close.

(on camera): Do you realistically believe there will be a change now as a result of this period of protest?

FAZELI: I tell you something and that's a fact. Clergy people, cleric government in Iran, they won't see this sun -- the dawn of 2004.

BUCKLEY (voice-over): Meanwhile the calls from Iran keep coming into the shows that are being beamed right back to where they came from.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Chatsworth, California. (END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Up next on NEWSNIGHT, a Father's Day treat: Aaron talks with Bill Cosby about fatherhood and his new book for kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: There are few people who can appreciate fatherhood the way Bill Cosby can. He knows the joy of having a child and the heartbreak of losing one. His son Ennis was murdered in 1997.

Bill Cosby has written a tribute to his son, a new children's book called "Friends of a Feather" illustrated by his daughter, Erica. He recently sat down with Aaron.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: You've written a number of books. How is this book different? What makes this book different?

BILL COSBY, ENTERTAINER: The fact that it's for children, but on a higher level. You can go up as high as age 37 with your children with this book, because it is about who -- when you see somebody who really loves you, why are you busy performing and doing other things for some folks you don't know? And that's what this is about.

The person who's doing the performing starts to just try to show people what it can do, and winds up damaging itself, this bird does. And the friend who loves the bird comes along and takes it in and heals it, but gives it have very good talking to about love and they have a lot of fun together and then there's a funny ending for the two.

I love it because I think that parents can use this to revisit their children. They can revisit their nephews -- anybody -- or nieces, about love. What is family love? What real love?

BROWN: Do you -- do you have regrets about the time that you spent on the road, the time you spent working, the time you didn't spend being dad?

COSBY: No.

BROWN: OK.

COSBY: No, because my wife took charge anyway. I mean, even -- had I been home, I wouldn't have been able to do anything. I mean, there's a billion fathers who know that they -- they're just there to come home and...

BROWN: Oh, come on.

COSBY: How did the children do today?

BROWN: Come on.

COSBY: I'm serious.

BROWN: You're not serious.

COSBY: Well...

BROWN: No, you're not.

COSBY: You -- do you have children?

BROWN: I do.

COSBY: Your wife let you -- you see? That's the key. I don't have to say this. Let you. No.

I remember my father, 5'11", 230 pounds.

BROWN: I'm there to say yes. I'm there to say yes. Say, Mom says...

COSBY: Yes.

BROWN: It's OK. Go ahead.

COSBY: That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Mr. Brown, we're saying the same thing. You know that you can't tell one of your children to do something. They'll go back and lie on you.

You see but dad said, so forth and then she comes out and she doesn't even say Well, now that I have the two of you together, we can find out who really said what. Doesn't happen that way.

BROWN: She doesn't have to lie, because she knows I will say yes all the time.

The words are terrific. The illustrations are fabulous. Talk about the illustrations in the book.

COSBY: Erica finally broke even with us.

BROWN: Erica is....

COSBY: Is the artist. That's our daughter.

BROWN: Oh.

COSBY: She graduated from Wesley and then went to the school of visual arts here and then wound up getting her masters of fine art, which is the terminal degree in art at Cal-Berkeley. Erica is not an illustrator, but I asked her to do this because this book was inspired at a time -- the Christmas that we didn't want to spend at home because Ennis had been murdered. And that's where I saw the birds flying, and that's where the story came to me. And she -- she knows what this is about, and the emotion with it.

It's not a sad story. It's a very, very happy story and it's about love. But her work is exactly what I wanted. And I explained it to her. And it's wonderful to have a child of yours who can really listen to you and then go out and do exactly what you want, and some.

BROWN: So, is it your vision or is it her vision in the illustrations?

COSBY: It's a combination.

She is the artist. She -- she is not an illustrator so, she had to learn how to illustrate. I wrote out the description of the birds. In other words -- the blue one, the blue one is one who is an angry bird because when it opens up, it disappears because it is the same color as the sky. So, it's not a happy bird.

The colors I described to her. I can't draw. And so Erica drew. She then came to me and said, Well, what do you think of this? And I said, well, you know, I think that you misinterpreted or I didn't write and then we cleared it up. But when you looked a colors and texture and style, that's Erica.

And that's what art is. If we take a melody and we say row, row, row your boat and you give it to Charlie Parker to do, I mean, it's row, row, row your boat. But when we come to the second chorus, same changes.

And that's what Erica did. She did what her fathered asked her to do, and then she Charlie Parkered it. And so, all of these textures, all of these thing, that's Erica. That background.

BROWN: They're beautiful.

COSBY: I didn't describe the sky and the ground. That's Erica.

BROWN: How is Father's Day celebrated in the Cosby house?

COSBY: For the last 15 years, the best present that I could get, I have hosted, emceed "The Playboy Jazz Festival" at the Hollywood Bowl. And from 2:00 Sunday afternoon until 10:00 p.m., I sit and I have watched Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, the modern jazz quartet, Nina Simone. I mean, I have seen the Mel Torme.

And every Father's Day, that's within wonderful. My family sits in the box and they watch me introduce these artists and I have a seat and there's the stage right there. And I shake hands with the guys and I pal around with them.

BROWN: It's your day.

COSBY: Whoo! But I'm retiring. This is my last event for "The Playboy Jazz Festival." So now they're going to have to go out and get some presents.

BROWN: Final question. How are you? Sixty-five-years-old. and you feel good. You still enjoy working. How are you?

COSBY: I feel very, very good.

My wife has me under surveillance. Medical surveillance. In other words, she makes sure that I don't eat this, I eat that. I eat this way, I don't eat that way. Comes around that time in your life, man, where she starts saying, I want you around a long time and that's a good sign.

BROWN: So, you don't want to go get a burger?

COSBY: See, you put it on TV, man. Why would you ask that when she's watching? You know -- are you married?

BROWN: I am, yes.

COSBY: You must not be a bright husband.

BROWN: I'm doing the best I can.

COSBY: No, you can't be. You're talking about me eating thick that I like -- that my wife...

BROWN: I was thinking a veggie burger.

Thank you.

COSBY: Where are they?

BROWN: It's nice to meet you.

COSBY: I'm not talking to you in public anymore. You're going to get both of us in trouble. May I have a shot of Bombay Gin?

BROWN: Nice to meet you. Thank you very much.

COSBY: Thank you.

BROWN: Good luck.

COSBY: Bye-bye.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: In case you forgot, Father's Day is Sunday.

Up next on NEWSNIGHT, a Cuban exile who may be sent back because of new rules put in effect after September 11.

And then, FBI Director Robert Mueller faces off with the ACLU.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Changes in immigration rules since September 11 are giving some immigrants living in the U.S. trouble with their status. This is the story of one of them, a man who has been for decades, a prominent activist who wants to stay in the U.S. He's not from Pakistan or far away Yemen. His homeland is 90 miles from the U.S.

CNN's John Zarrella reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the morning Elian Gonzalez was taken from his great-uncle's home, Ramon Sal Sanchez (ph) stood at the door, trying to block federal agents.

His anti-Castro protests on the streets of Miami have gotten him three rides to jail. Seventeen times, Sal Sanchez, leader of the Democracia movement, led protest flotillas to the edge of Cuban territorial waters. On one occasion, Cuban gunboats nearly sank his boat.

Anyone who pays even the least attention to the Cuban exile community in Miami knows Ramon Sal Sanchez' politics and passion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this one here is under repair right now. This is the human rights. I did a hunger strike in the middle downtown Miami for the release of this vessel (UNINTELLIGIBLE) confiscated it. And we got it back.

ZARRELLA: But Sal Sanchez, who fled from Cuba to the United States in 1967, could now be sent back because of tighter immigration regulations put in place after September 11. Sal Sanchez's problem stems from the fact that he's never applied for residency or citizenship in the United States. He says that would have diluted the purity of his refugee status.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I always claim my right to return home. I will never give it up.

ZARRELLA: Recently, however, in order to get a new driver's license, he did apply for residency, but was arrested for being in the country illegally. In September, an immigration judge could order him sent back to Cuba.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the United States government chooses to send me back, handcuffed, I will not oppose it. I will let them do that, and I will leave that to their conscience.

ZARRELLA: Until his hearing, Ramon Sal Sanchez says he'll continue his protests against Castro. Next month, he's planning his 18th flotilla to the edge of Cuban waters.

John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: It is fair to say members of the American Civil Liberties Union wouldn't call this the golden age of civil liberties. The group thinks things are so dire that this week, it did something it has never done in its 83-year history, held a national membership meeting with a major adversary as the guest of honor, FBI director Robert Mueller.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One FBI official said it was like sending Daniel into the lions' den, and at first it sure looked like the 1,000 or so ACLU members were smelling blood.

ANTHONY ROMERO, ACLU EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: We know that the FBI has a difficult and necessary mandate to protect Americans from the next terrorist attack. The ACLU also has a difficult and necessary mandate, to protect Americans from a steady and dangerous erosion of our civil liberties.

ARENA: But there was hardly a slaughter. The FBI director came armed with humor.

ROBERT MUELLER, DIRECTOR, FBI: I think you really do owe me, however, because of the increase in membership, all of you here, I probably...

ARENA: It was the first-ever membership meeting for the ACLU. The organization even helped footed the bill for some of its youngest members to attend, a fact the guest speaker sought to capitalize on.

MUELLER: And you probably think I'm here to give a talk, but actually I'm here to recruit FBI agents. So...

ARENA: The mood was light, but not the issues. The director was hit with questions regarding the PATRIOT Act, which ACLU members say infringes on personal liberties in the name of national security.

MUELLER: I will tell you this is an area that we are going to disagree...

ARENA: The detention of illegal aliens in the wake of September 11, and a Justice Department inspector general's report criticizing the way they were treated.

MUELLER: My hope is that we will never again face the situation we faced on September 11. But if we do, it is my expectation that those recommendations from the inspector general will be assimilated...

ARENA: And the FBI's new authority to obtain records from libraries and bookstores, which Mueller say is overstated.

In the end, some members were impressed but not swayed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did kind of dodge some of the answers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very impressive for him to come at this forum. I mean, he knew from the start that he did not have any supporters here.

ARENA (on camera): The speech may be over, but the dialogue is sure to continue, especially as the government pushes for more new powers to fight the war on terror. Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: People usually think about al Qaeda mostly in terms of the Arab world, but in fact, it's a global organization, and al Qaeda has expanded its reach by creating a terror network in Southeast Asia, according to intelligence documents obtained by CNN Jakarta bureau chief Maria Ressa. She interviewed the man officials point to as the spiritual leader of that Asian terror group.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA RESSA, CNN JAKARTA BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): October 12, 2002. The worst terrorist attack since September 11. Three bombs, the largest planted outside the Sari (ph) Club in Bali. The explosions designed, investigators say, to funnel people closer to the last and deadliest blast, so fierce it ruptured the internal organs of many in the club.

More than 200 people died, hundreds more injured.

Indonesian officials say the attack was the work of Jama Islamia (ph), al Qaeda's network in Southeast Asia.

The man who controls that network, officials across the region say, is Indonesian cleric Abu Bakar Ba-Ashir (ph), dubbed the Asian Osama bin Laden.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The one truth is Islam. The one thing that can save us is Islam. But we must commit to it. That is what I teach. If Islamic law is disturbed, there is no compromise.

RESSA: In some circles in Indonesia, Ba-Ashir is a revered figure. He befriended well-connected politicians like Indonesia's vice president, even though officials in Singapore and Malaysia linked him to terrorism and issued warrants for his arrest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Islam is attacked, there are only two responses. We are victorious, or we die. That is what it means to rise up and defend Islam. That is what the infidels and Jews call violence. But if you're going to defend Islam, you either win or you die. You can't sit on the sidelines.

RESSA: Officials across Southeast Asia name Abu Bakar Ba-Ashir as the head of al Qaeda's network in the region, Jama Islamia, an organization he claims does not even exist.

Days after the Bali attacks, Ba-Ashir was arrested and eventually charged with treason.

Just before going to jail, he gave an interview to CNN. He denies any links to terrorism and emphasizes the message Indonesians have come to believe. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of the violence in Indonesia has been engineered by America and Israel. Israel is Islam's strongest enemy, most radical. America is being used by Israel in order to attack Islam.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: You can see of Maria Ressa's report this weekend when "CNN PRESENTS: Seeds of Terror." That's this Sunday at 8:00 p.m. and again at 11:00 p.m. Eastern time.

As NEWSNIGHT continues, decisions that could be far-reaching from the Supreme Court. We'll look at the impact of upcoming decisions and the question of the summer, will there be any new justices? soon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: They're neck and neck with the gang at "60 Minutes" in terms of age, averaging right around 70 years old. And the question of who will replace them when they retire is one of the most important and controversial questions facing the country today.

We're talking, of course, about members of the Supreme Court, and the intense speculation over who's staying, who's going, and who might one day join them.

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST (voice-over): Question, what makes this television ad attacking the president's Supreme Court nominee unusual?

Answer, the president doesn't have a Supreme Court nominee.

But the mere possibility or rumor or hunch that Chief Justice William Rehnquist or Justice Sandra Day O'Connor or some other Supreme Court justice might step down when the court term ends this summer, well, that was enough to start troop maneuvers in what will almost surely be the biggest domestic battle of this Bush's presidency.

While the Senate has battled over lower court federal judges for years, it's been more than nine years since a Supreme Court vacancy has occurred. That's the longest such gap since the 1820s.

And given the enormous power of these lifetime Supreme Court appointments, the power to strike down state and federal laws, the power to expand or limit or define rights, maybe it's not surprising that this nonpolitical branch of the federal government has in recent decades become an increasingly political battleground.

In 1968, after years of noncontroversial Supreme Court appointments, a Senate filibuster helped doom President Johnson's bid to elevate Justice Abe Fortas to chief justice. A Democratic Senate rejected both of President Nixon's first two high court nominees, Clement Haynesworth and Harold Carswell.

In 1987, another Democratic Senate turned down President Reagan's choice of Robert Bork. And in 1991, the Democratic-controlled Senate barely confirmed Clarence Thomas after perhaps the most bitter and divisive of fights.

Now, says former White House counsel Boyden Gray, who will help lead a political fight to confirm Bush's nominee, liberal interest groups are determined to block just about any choice.

C. BOYDEN GRAY, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, 1989-1993: What they have said is they will oppose anybody. They can't believe that the president will nominate someone who would be acceptable, so they're geared up to oppose whoever it is.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: The only time we really oppose things is when the president nominates someone way out of the mainstream. And this president, unfortunately, has chosen his judges through an ideological prism to a far greater extent than any president in history.

GREENFIELD: New York Senator Chuck Schumer says the Senate should quiz nominees about their views. But he's also submitted to the president a list of judges appointed by Republicans who would, he said, find support from most Democrats. But, he adds...

SCHUMER: If the president is going to try to change America not through the Congress, not through the presidency, but rather through filling the courts, stacking the courts with nominees who are so far over, then obviously there'll be a fight.

GREENFIELD: On that point, Boyden Gray agrees.

GRAY: If the president nominations a justice or a potential justice that we should be prepared, he, the White House, and outside supporters, should be prepared to support and oppose those who would misrepresent the candidate, the nominee.

GREENFIELD (on camera): Mr. Bush's conservative base well remembers how the first President Bush put a moderate liberal, David Souter, on the court. They want no such nominee this time. And President Bush himself has cited conservative heroes Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas as his favorite justices.

Liberals see the court as their only protection against a rollback of precedents in areas such as abortion. They want Democrats in the Senate to use every measure they can to block any justice with strong conservative views. When it comes, this battle is going to be a doozy.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: A doozy of a battle, as Jeff put it, but it might be coming. There are also some big decisions we know are coming over the next few weeks, decisions that are expected in cases involving homosexuality, affirmative action, and free speech at public libraries.

Joining us now, Chuck Lane, Supreme Court correspondent for "The Washington Post."

Thank you so much for being with us tonight.

CHARLES LANE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Glad to be here.

SNOW: Let's start with the decisions that are going to be coming down. They come down usually on Mondays. We're going to have some interesting Mondays, I expect, in June.

LANE: Yes, the next two Mondays in June, right.

SNOW: What do you think is going to be -- what are you waiting for? What is the big one that you're as a reporter sitting and waiting for?

LANE: Well, I think you've mentioned the two biggest, the case involving affirmative action in college and graduate school admissions, and the test of the constitutionality of Texas's law, which bans consensual acts between people of the same sex.

SNOW: Let's go through both of those really quickly. The Michigan case, about affirmative action, do we have a sense which way that is going to go? And this is the policy -- give us a little bit of the background, and do we have a sense?

LANE: Well, this is a real good example of how the Supreme Court really holds the key to an issue that so divides the society, which is a question about whether or not universities in the name of a more diverse student body can give a little advantage to students who are black, Hispanic, or Native American in coming into, you know, the gateway to economic opportunity, which is college education. The court...

SNOW: Yes, and you had white students, basically, saying this isn't fair.

LANE: Absolutely. And...

SNOW: So which way is it going to go?

LANE: Well, this is an issue on which these nine justices have divided, you know, in different cases that didn't present this precise issue. And really most people believe it comes down to Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who has so often the middle swing vote on the court. And frankly, her writings in past cases suggest she could go, I hate to be...

SNOW: Either way?

LANE: ... inconclusive, either way. So it's really two cases, one having to do with the law school, one with the undergraduate program. And it's possible they could uphold one and strike down the other and sort of reach a compromise that way.

SNOW: Yes, sort of a split decision.

LANE: Yes.

SNOW: What about the Texas case, very quickly?

LANE: Right.

SNOW: Where do you see that going?

LANE: Well, Texas, one of a handful of states that still bans consensual homosexual sex. And in 1986, the Supreme Court said, Yes, you can ban that. So this case is actually asking the court, or in taking this, the court has agreed to revisit that ruling, possibly. They could also find an alternative way to strike it down.

Most people believe they wouldn't have taken this case if they didn't...

SNOW: Plan to do something.

LANE: ... plan to do something like that, yes.

SNOW: And that could have implications, I suppose, for every state out there in the country.

LANE: Well, just -- more importantly, I think, the ones that already have these laws...

SNOW: Those laws.

LANE: ... which is really only a few. But it's symbolically very important to the gay rights movement.

SNOW: Let's get to what Jeff Greenfield was talking about. It's the big question...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... and power game in Washington to try to figure this out. First of all, who do you think is leaving?

LANE: Well...

SNOW: Is anyone leaving?

LANE: Well, I got to say, let's put it this way, the theory that they would leave hinges on the fact that this is still an off-year, there's no congressional or presidential election in 2003. So maybe the politics would be a little more convenient.

And you have two justices, Rehnquist and O'Connor, who are kind of getting up there in years, and who are Republican appointees and presumably...

SNOW: Yes.

LANE: ... like to turn their seat over while there's a Republican Senate and president.

SNOW: And then there have been all these ads running, the abortion rights advocates...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... are up in arms. My e-mail box is full, because I cover Capitol Hill...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... of people saying, This is going to be the end of Roe v. Wade if this happens. Do...

LANE: Yes, my e-mail box is full too.

SNOW: Is full too. Do you sense that this really could have very large implications? I mean, will the president pick somebody fairly conservative?

LANE: Well, I guess the only thing missing from the picture is any outward sign that any justice is actually going to retire.

SNOW: Right.

LANE: And just...

SNOW: Assuming someone does.

LANE: Yes, it would be a battle royale. I mean, everybody is gearing up for it. And the groups on either end of the spectrum, as we just saw in that piece, for them, this is their bread and butter with their constituencies. This is, you know, what rallies their people.

And I think they have a real interest in making sure that it doesn't go down without a fight.

SNOW: You saw Senator Chuck Schumer, a New York Democrat, in that piece, giving some advice to the president...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... suggesting that perhaps he could pick somebody like Senator Arlen Specter...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... who's sort of a moderate Republican. The president's not going to listen to Senator Chuck Schumer, is he?

LANE: No, although it's funny, Arlen Specter was actually considered briefly by President Nixon, which, among other things, indicates that Arlen Specter is already 70 years old and probably a little too old to start on the court.

But no, I don't think there's much chance George W. Bush is going to let Chuck Schumer pick his justices.

SNOW: Does he, does he have to pick a middle-of-the-road kind of person just because the Senate is so closely divided? And talk about that a little bit.

LANE: Well, I think the major political consideration they're wrestling with is over whether or not to name the first-ever Hispanic justice to the court. And a lot of people are talking about Al Gonzalez, who's the White House counsel and close personal friend and confidante of the president.

If they were looking for a way to make a kind of political move to ensure confirmation, that would be one way to do it, because it'd be very difficult, I think, even for Democrats who oppose Republican nominee, to...

SNOW: To vote against the first Hispanic nominee, right.

LANE: ... to vote against somebody who's making history, yes.

SNOW: OK, thank you so much. Appreciate you coming in...

LANE: You're welcome.

SNOW: ... on a Friday night. Charles Lane with "The Washington Post."

LANE: My pleasure.

SNOW: We'll look for your stories on this subject.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a Father's Day gift of learning how to be a dad.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Finally from us, one last story ahead of Father's Day about men who are barely old enough to be called that, who became fathers in the strict sense of the word, and who are now determined to become something far more important, dads.

The story from CNN's Beth Nissen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Inside an Early Head Start center in the neglected community of Far Rockaway, Queens, past the daycare program and classes for moms, an unusual gathering in a place like this, a group of fathers.

JASON SANTIAGO, 19 YEARS OLD, NEW FATHER: I got a daughter. She's 4 months today.

NISSEN (on camera): And how old are you?

SANTIAGO: I'm 19.

JAYSON FARRIS, 26 YEARS OLD, FATHER OF FOUR: I have four children, all girls. My oldest is 7, the second-oldest is 5, third- oldest is 2, and the youngest is 4 months.

KARL LESHORE, 34 YEARS OLD, FATHER OF THREE: He's a year old.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE). You want to be shy now? He talking me to death in the car.

NISSEN (voice-over): These fathers, most of them in their teens and 20s, meet every week, mostly to talk. They share their concerns, their fears.

FARRIS: Because it's scary being a father, because it's a responsibility for the rest of your life.

DAVID JONES, DIRECTOR, VISITING NURSE SERVICE, FATHERS FIRST INITIATIVE: We felt like if we were going to heal this community in some way, we needed to begin by healing families.

NISSEN: David Jones founded the fathers' support program six years ago.

JONES: Most of these guys want to be in their children's lives. They just don't know how.

NISSEN: Don't know how, in many cases, because they've never seen it done.

(on camera): Did you have a father in your life?

SANTIAGO: No. I'm one of the 15 kids of my father's.

FARRIS: Basically, you know, my father's habits and behavior stopped him from being a part of my life. And it's like traveling somewhere, and you don't have a map. You feel lost, in a sense. You know, it's, like, OK, I got this baby, what do I do?

NISSEN: Most have a strictly limited view of what fathers should do -- be breadwinners.

CHRISTOPHER ALBERTS, 22 YEARS OLD, FATHER: Before, I used to just -- whatever he need, get it for him, and then just run in the streets. Well, I gave her money, he's good and everything, he's well taken care of because he's with his mother.

JONES: Fathers see themselves as financial providers only. Takes away from so many great opportunities for them to connect to their children, to bond with their children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with Daddy.

NISSEN: Those in the Fathers First program are encouraged to redefine, expand, their ideas of what Daddy does, to include getting a sticky 2-year-old unsticky.

ALBERTS: Rub your hands together.

NISSEN: And getting a renegade toddler down for his nap.

JONES: If you have a child, and this child is your responsibility, then there's nothing that should be off-limits in terms of what you should do for that child.

ALBERTS: Throw it in the garbage, now.

NISSEN: Many of these men are surprised to find that they're good at parenting, take real pride in the work, and they are often stunned by the strength of the bonds they form with their children, by how much they are needed, wanted.

ALBERTS: When his mother's ready to leave, he'll, Bye-bye, Mommy, but he won't say Bye-bye to me, because he always wants me.

SANTIAGO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Daddy.

NISSEN: To a man, they say being an involved father has given them a new sense of self, of capabilities, large and small.

FARRIS: I can do the laundry, I can bathe my children, you know, I know what their favorite soap is to take a bath in their bubble bath. They love Mr. Bubble, you know? Not all dads know certain things. It's more or less I'm making up for things that I didn't get. You know, I would have loved if my father had knew my favorite color.

What's the matter?

You know, me being a father, help to father the little boy that I had inside of me, you know, helped me to grow and become the man that I am today.

NISSEN: A man better able to do his share of the hardest and most important work there is.

Beth Nissen, CNN, Queens, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Happy Father's Day.

That's NEWSNIGHT for this night and this week. I'm Kate Snow. Thanks for watching. Aaron's back on Monday. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Bill Cosby>


Aired June 13, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KATE SNOW, GUEST HOST: Good evening.
When you read the road map to peace these days, it's tempting to race all the way to the end, a vision of two states it reads, Israel and sovereign, democratic, and viable Palestine living side-by-side in peace and security.

But the goal right now is how to get beyond the very first line ending the terror for Israelis, bringing a more normal life to the Palestinians, normal life judged by what we've seen this week. It is an unending cycle of bloodshed, more than 50 lives lost on both sides.

So, "The Whip" begins tonight with a bloody end to an extremely violent week in the Middle East. Kelly Wallace is in Gaza tonight, Kelly good evening, the headline please.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kate, while the attacks continue, and there were two more of them on this day, two Israeli air strikes, there are some signs of diplomatic progress. CNN has learned there could be high level security talks between Israeli and Palestinian officials as early as this weekend -- Kate.

SNOW: To Iraq now where U.S. forces fought back after being ambushed. Ben Wedeman is on that from Baghdad, Ben the headline.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kate, the armed opponents to the American presence in Iraq took a severe beating today with as many as 100 killed at the hands of American forces further proof, if any was still needed, that the war here is far from over.

SNOW: On to the arrest in Thailand of a man accused of putting radioactive material up for sale. Tom Mintier is covering that tonight from Bangkok, Tom the headline please.

TOM MINTIER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kate, one man is in jail and 66 pounds of radioactive material is in safe hands tonight after a sting operation involving Thai police and U.S. Customs took what could have been the makings of a dirty bomb off the market. We'll have the details -- Kate.

SNOW: We'll go back to all of you in just a moment.

Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT new questions about monkeypox, do we now have cases of the disease spreading from person to person? CNN Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen will help us sort out fact from fear.

And, one of America's best known and best loved dads, Bill Cosby, his talk with Aaron ahead of Father's Day about his new book inspired by the son that he lost, all that to come on a very busy Friday.

We begin tonight with the latest Israeli attack on Hamas, but also the big question what do the recent string of attacks on both sides mean to the chances for peace? On that score things look awfully dark, but as we learned late today there's at least still a glimmer of hope.

So, we head back to Gaza and CNN's Kelly Wallace for the latest developments.

WALLACE: Kate, we got our first glimmer of hope after a bloody and violent week on this day when Palestinian sources were telling us there is a possibility, and we stress possibility, there could be high level security talks between Israeli and Palestinian officials as early as Saturday.

But at the same time, Israeli officials say they will continue to put pressure on Hamas while Hamas says it will keep putting pressure on Israel as well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE (voice-over): On Friday, Israel continued its assaults on Hamas with one attack that killed a member of Hamas' military wing and injured more than 20 others according to Palestinian hospital sources. Hours later another aerial attack targeted a Hamas weapons warehouse, Israeli military sources said.

Earlier thousands of Palestinians buried the victims of Thursday's punishing air strikes including a Hamas leader, his pregnant wife, and his one-year-old daughter.

It was also a day of tearful goodbyes in Israel as some of the 17 people killed in Wednesday's suicide bus bombing by Hamas were laid to rest. Many here fear there are likely to be more of these scenes with Israel and Hamas now saying they are in an all out war.

But why now, just after the smiles in Aqaba? Israeli officials say they came up with the plan to target Hamas leaders months ago but they implemented it only after deciding that Hamas was planning to scuttle the Mid East road map with more attacks against Israelis and Israel, analysts say, appears to be getting a green light from the White House.

LESLIE SUSSER, ISRAELI POLITICAL ANALYST: President Bush is very critical of Israel but within 24 hours this had totally turned around and the signals that Sharon was getting from Washington was that, yes, in order for the road map to go ahead Hamas must be brought to heel.

WALLACE: Hamas is now warning that the Jerusalem attack is just the beginning. Some Palestinian observers say Hamas was about to agree to a ceasefire but that the Israeli air strikes made the group reverse course. Hamas will only lose its power, says this political analyst, when Israel leaves the West Bank and Gaza.

EYAD AL SARAI, PALESTINIAN POLITICAL ANALYST: Wherever there is hope there is less support of suicide bombing and violence. Wherever there is the spirit there is more popular support to suicide bombing and violence. So, here you have it. End the Israeli occupation. There would be no Hamas. We don't need it.

WALLACE: Most observers believe it will come down to American pressure to try to resuscitate the road map. The Israelis say the pressure should be on the Palestinian Authority to crack down on Hamas, but the Palestinians on the streets here say the pressure should be on the Israelis to stop their attacks.

"Where is Bush who has taken responsibility for the road map? You know what the road map means. It means the destruction of the Palestinian people" this woman said.

The new war between Israel and Hamas may not have killed the Mid East road map but left it in critical condition. It now needs intensive care to survive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And it will be getting some intensive care this weekend from U.S. Assistant Secretary of State John Wolf who will be the new point man in the region for the Bush administration and, Kate, he faces a tremendous challenge trying to breathe new life into this Mid East road map -- Kate.

SNOW: And, Kelly, do we have any idea who he is going to sit down with this weekend? I suppose that's separate from the other meetings that you're mentioning that might happen between the Palestinians and Israelis.

WALLACE: Absolutely. Our sense is first he will be meeting with Israeli officials beginning as early as Saturday night with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, his foreign minister, and his defense minister, and then by Monday or Tuesday or next week he will head to meet with Palestinian officials including Palestinian Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas.

We do not expect him to meet with Yasser Arafat, the Palestinian president, because of course the American administration has been saying it wants to sideline Yasser Arafat and keep the focus on the Palestinian prime minister -- Kate.

SNOW: Kelly Wallace tonight, thanks.

Coming up a little later we're going to focus on the rise of Hamas. We'll talk to an expert about the power of that group, a group that may have more support among regular Palestinians than the leader who is supposed to be representing them at the peace table.

But first some other items from around the world. More fighting in central Iraq, day four of a U.S. operation aimed at drawing opposition holdouts into the open. It began today with an ambush by enemy forces matched against American tanks and Apaches. It was hardly an even match.

Let's go back to CNN's Ben Wedeman with the story in Baghdad -- Ben.

WEDEMAN: Yes, Kate, in the last week we really have seen a dramatic increase, an intensification of the level of U.S. military activity in western and central Iraq those the remaining strongholds of loyalty to the deposed Iraqi president.

The first incident that you just mentioned occurred 45 miles to the north of Baghdad near the town of Balad. Now in that incident a large group of well-armed Iraqi elements, according to U.S. officials, attempted to attack a tank patrol in that area just before midnight on Thursday.

It was indeed a fatal mistake. It resulted in the death of 27 of those attackers as the U.S. tanks responded to that ambush and pursued the attackers. Now, this fighting occurred in an area where one operation, Peninsula Strike, is winding down. Now, that operation involved 4,000 U.S. troops and that was the biggest operation of its type in Iraq since the end of the war.

Now, elsewhere to the northwest of Baghdad, a combined ground and air operation resulted in the death of 100 Iraqis, hostile elements we are told by U.S. officials. Now, this operation was focused on what coalition officers are describing as a terrorist training camp where they believe some of the remnants of those thousands of Arab volunteers who flocked to Iraq before and during the war came. They came, of course, to fight alongside the Iraqi forces against the U.S.- led invasion.

Now, the U.S. forces, we were told, found a large cache of surface-to-air missiles, rocket-propelled grenades, as well as AK-47s in that area. Now, despite all of this activity U.S. officials believe there still is no organized coordinated nationwide resistance movement to the American presence here -- Kate.

SNOW: Ben, back here in the U.S. though I have to say the coverage makes it seem like this is really a new phenomenon. Is this something that you're just seeing over the past few days get worse and worse?

WEDEMAN: Well, certainly the level of American activity is intensifying. There's no question about it. But, we have seen on an almost daily basis attacks against American forces. Since the beginning of May it's running at about one dead American a day and that doesn't include the wounded as well.

I spent three weeks traveling around central and western Iraq and I must say that there is a growing movement against the American presence. Now, these are the Arab Sunnis who were the core of the old regime of Saddam Hussein. They resent the American presence. They feel they are the losers in the new Iraq and they are taking up arms.

I heard persistent rumors, for instance, that the Arab Sunni tribes are organizing, I was told, an armed resistance to the American presence, so it does appear that things are going to get hotter here in Iraq this summer -- Kate.

SNOW: Ben Wedeman in Baghdad tonight thank you so much.

A lot of ugly surprises this week in the war on terrorism, last night it was a bomb discovered under the seat of an airliner in Italy. Tonight, the surprise is in Thailand where a man was arrested, accused of trying to sell the radioactive makings of a dirty bomb, the story now from CNN's Tom Mintier.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MINTIER (voice-over): It was a case nine months in the making. U.S. Customs agents and police in Thailand closed the net on a 44- year-old Thai man in the parking lot of a Bangkok hotel. Authorities say he had offered to sell the agents uranium.

It turned out to be cesium 137, not as powerful but nearly as deadly, not a small package but one that weighed more than 60 pounds. The suspect is in jail charged with possession of radioactive materials which are now also safely in custody.

The deal was to be for nearly a quarter of a million U.S. dollars, police say. The cesium apparently destined for a so-called dirty bomb, but U.S. officials indicate this may be a criminal matter rather than a terrorist act. The seller thought he was making a deal with terrorists. It ended up being Thai police and U.S. Customs agents.

Just where did the cesium come from? Police say they know it came out of Laos but believe it will trace back to Russia. The arrest of the man and seizure of the cesium follow recent arrests in both Thailand and Cambodia for alleged ties to an unspecified international terrorism plot.

Thai police are currently searching for a man who they believe is a bomb maker. They also say those arrested in Thailand had plans to bomb at least five western embassies and several tourist locations.

In announcing Friday's arrest and seizure, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security released the following statement from Secretary Tom Ridge: "Homeland Security agents worked together in partnership with Thai authorities and the U.S. Embassy on the front lines to halt the sale of these potentially dangerous materials."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MINTIER: No one is quite sure what the intended use of the cesium was. What we do know is what happens when cesium is released into the atmosphere. About the same amount of cesium was released back in 1986 at Chernobyl and what happened after that was an environmental catastrophe felt worldwide -- Kate.

SNOW: Tom Mintier working the early morning hours for us in Bangkok. We very much appreciate it Tom, thanks.

Still ahead tonight, on this Friday edition of NEWSNIGHT the rising power of Hamas a group that can't be ignored in any equation for Mid East peace.

And later Aaron's conversation with one of America's favorite fathers Bill Cosby.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Back to the Middle East now and what increasingly looks like the all-out war between Israel and Hamas. With us now in southern Massachusetts is Naseer Aruri. He's professor emeritus at the University of Massachusetts and the recent author of "Dishonest Broker," the role of the United States in Palestine and Israel.

Mr. Aruri, welcome to NEWSNIGHT. Thanks for being here.

NASEER ARURI, PROFESSOR EMERITUS, UNIVERSITY OF MASSACHUSETTS, DARTMOUTH: Thank you. It's my pleasure.

SNOW: Is the situation as we just billed it, is it more Israel versus Hamas than it is Israel versus the Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas?

ARURI: Well, I think it is really more accurate to say that it is Israel versus the Palestinian people, not only the Palestinians who live in the occupied territories but all Palestinians, I mean whether they are in the Diaspora or the Palestinians in Israel itself.

I mean there is a Palestinian consensus here which is based really on two simple notions, one of which is supported by the global consensus for a long time and that is the end of the occupation and the occupation is 36 years old, and the second one is the establishment of a Palestinian state alongside Israel, which is something mentioned in the road map.

SNOW: But Hamas...

ARURI: Actually both of these are mentioned in the road map.

SNOW: But Hamas is getting, certainly getting a lot of attention for very negative reasons. They've been behind many of the recent bombings. They seem to be getting stronger politically. Is that the case? Are they growing stronger?

ARURI: Well, actually Hamas has been growing stronger, particularly during the Oslo period. You know, Hamas goes back to 1987 and I think that people might know or would like to know that there was a time that Israel used to promote Hamas as a counterweight to the secular nationalist, i.e. to the PLO.

But today things are different. Hamas has been very dissatisfied with the Oslo process, particularly with the concessions that the people kept thinking that Arafat's concessions have really bottomed out but they never seem to bottom out. And so, Hamas began to rival the PLO and to put the brakes on them in order not to keep giving up on the national rights. SNOW: And, in Gaza...

ARURI: I think I should mention here...yes.

SNOW: Sorry. In Gaza and the West Bank from what I've read Hamas it's not only, it's not just political and it's not just military but it's also, they're providing schools. They're providing social services, isn't that the case? I mean this is more than just seen as a military movement.

ARURI: Absolutely. I mean I think that Hamas' infrastructure actually their social, educational, social welfare infrastructure had remained somewhat intact compared to the infrastructure of the Palestine Authority. Maybe it would not be exactly correct to say intact. I think that all Palestinians have suffered during the past two and a half years.

But, Hamas is an organization that has a large constituency. Some relate to it ideologically and some benefit from it and some I think see it as an organization that is putting the brakes on Abbas.

I think that Hamas was dissatisfied with the speech that Prime Minister Abbas made at Aqaba in Jordan during the summit with President Bush because they felt that he said more about Palestinian violence than he said about Palestinian rights that are recognized by the international community, so their dissatisfaction...

SNOW: Would you agree though -- let me just ask you one last -- we don't have a lot of time but one last quick question.

ARURI: Sure.

SNOW: Would you agree that Hamas has got to come onboard in order for anything to move forward on the road map, and is that possible?

ARURI: Well, in fact, I think it is very possible. You see on the 25th of May, there's an article in (unintelligible) which is a leading Israeli daily, that quoted Dr. Rantisi against whom Israel launched an attack and tried to assassinate him just two days ago, Rantisi offered a ceasefire, what they call in Arabia hudna (ph), a ceasefire if the Israelis stopped targeting Hamas leaders and if they give up this policy of assassinations.

On June 2nd, a few days later, I mean just before going to the summit conference in Aqaba, Prime Minister Sharon is quoted in (unintelligible) again as saying that he insists on Abbas dismantling the infrastructure of terrorism, in other words he's saying that I don't really want your ceasefire. I want your demise. So, basically they were placed in a non-negotiable position here.

But I really believe that Hamas, just as the PLO, just as the independents in Palestine, would like to reach a settlement that would end the occupation, that would deliver them out of the misery in which they live under economic siege not knowing whether they can finish the journey when they embark on going to a school, to a hospital or some place. What they want is an end of this occupation and (unintelligible).

SNOW: Let's end it on that positive note. Let's end it on that positive and hopeful note. Naseer Aruri, thank you so much for joining us tonight.

ARURI: OK.

SNOW: Appreciate your time.

ARURI: You're very welcome indeed.

SNOW: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the spread of monkeypox as the government takes steps to get control of a situation that's out of control.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: The spread of the disease monkeypox has been troubling but very limited. I called it out of control but really it's been pretty limited. Most of the cases have been traced to contact with pet prairie dogs.

It would become a lot more troubling, though, and maybe out of control if it were found to be spreading from person to person. Today, there was fear that that had happened but as it stands right now it is still just fear, more from CNN Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Here are the culprits, pet prairie dogs suspected of spreading monkeypox to people in four states, including possibly to children at a daycare center at a private home in Indiana.

At the center, the children played with prairie dogs who later became ill and died. Now, one child is in the hospital and some 16 others have recovered from symptoms of monkeypox. The Centers for Disease Control is doing tests on the children's blood.

And, in Wisconsin, a different type of outbreak, three people may have contracted monkeypox not from animals but from other people. Two healthcare workers, a nurse at this hospital and a medical assistant at a dermatologist's office, may have contracted the disease from their patients with monkeypox, and the nurse's boyfriend may have monkeypox too.

Wisconsin health officials, however, say they doubt any of them has monkeypox. Specimens from all three have been sent to the CDC and results could be ready Saturday, if they really do have monkeypox...

DR. STEVE OSTROFF, CDC: It's very important to point out this is fully expected.

COHEN: Monkeypox spreads person-to-person in Africa where it kills up to ten percent of its victims. The disease is not expected to be as deadly in the United States where there are 72 cases under investigation, 13 of which have been laboratory confirmed. Some patients have been hospitalized but no one has died.

Not as deadly because people in the United States who might have been exposed to monkeypox are being offered the smallpox vaccine. The two diseases are closely related.

(on camera): Since monkeypox does spread person to person, could it spread around the globe? Could there be another SARS type epidemic? CDC officials say probably not.

(voice-over): That's because while monkeypox does spread person to person it doesn't usually spread person to person to person.

OSTROFF: This isn't a virus that's particularly well adapted to transmission from human to human, so even if we do see cases like this occurring, after one or possibly two or three generations of this, it tends to burn itself out in humans, and so we don't think that this would be a continuous or ongoing problem.

COHEN: And how do you know if you have monkeypox? Symptoms include fever, muscle aches, rash, and large lymph nodes and exposure to exotic animals, like prairie dogs or to a person with monkeypox. So, if you haven't been playing with one of these recently, or don't know anyone who has, then there's probably no way you have monkeypox.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: That's a relief.

A few stories from around the country tonight beginning with the president in Kennebunkport, Maine, Mr. Bush finally began a long family weekend at his parents' estate by hooking a fish. He eventually scored a striped bass, which received a presidential pardon and got tossed back in.

But not everything was picture perfect for the president today, blame it on the Segway, that stand-up electric scooter with gyroscopes to help keep it and its passenger upright, right.

Mr. Bush wasn't hurt after losing his balance and spokesman Ari Fleischer was quick to spin the presidential stumble saying I thought he made a particularly excellent rebound. He looked very athletic as he emerged.

And Roger Clemens got his two milestones, two at a time. The rocket finally reached 300 wins tonight and entered an even more exclusive club. He became only the third pitcher with 4,000 strikeouts as he led the New York Yankees over the St. Louis Cardinals 5-2.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT are lawsuits with thousands of plaintiffs getting out of control? We'll talk to people on opposite sides of that issue. And later America's favorite dad Bill Cosby and his new children's book.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: This week, the house led by Republicans voted to force big class action lawsuits out of state courts and into federal courts where the plaintiffs and their lawyers tend to win less money. Politicians disagree about whether that's a good idea, so do lawyers.

We are joined by two of them. John Coale is a plaintiff's attorney. John Eisner in usually finds himself on the corporation side of the argument. Welcome to you both.

Beisner not Eisner.

Right. Correct.

SNOW: Let me start with you, Mr. Cole. The House did this in an effort to essentially restrict what they say are ridiculous lawsuits. There are too many of them. They're shopping for the venue and shopping courts to find the best place to get money.

JOHN COALE, CLASS ACTION ATTORNEY: To Republicans in corporate America, any lawsuit is frivolous and any lawsuit is no good. But there's many, many class action suits that are very good. This really comes down to the Republicans in corporate America think that the federal courts will be easier on them, and my side believes that we get better treatment in the state courts. It really boils down to that. They're form shopping by legislation. We do it by filing our lawsuits.

SNOW: Are people shopping courts?

Are groups of people looking for the best place to go?

JOHN BEISNER, ATTORNEY: They really are. There is a series of studies that have been done that indicate that there are several smaller county courts that have become magnets for the major nationwide class actions. It's become really what the "Washington Post" editorial page has called an extortion racket, where people recover money in the lawsuits. The worst part is the lawyers recover the money, the courts allow them to keep all of the money. Nothing gets to the consumers out of those courts.

SNOW: Aren't these people who have suffered, which is what you are going to say?

COALE: Yes, they are. It doesn't all go to the lawyers. It's the judge's job. The judges have to oversee this. If we had judges with more backbone, they would regulate the fees more. We don't need Congress.

BEISNER: I think the problem with that and Congress has been studying this now six or seven years. The House put out a report and in case after case, I disagree, John, it shows that the consumers don't get anything out of these lawsuits. And as you say there are judges without backbones are the judges in the state courts. This is not happening in the federal courts.

COALE: Their studies. It's Republican Congress after Republican Congress after Republican study and we know that the Republicans are out to protect their buddies, be it Enron, WorldCom or whoever from suffering. Now, poor Martha Stewart apparently didn't give enough money to the party and got popped, well that didn't happen to Kenny.

SNOW: There's a big difference this time, which is that the Republicans not only control the House, but also the Senate and there's at least some thought on Capitol Hill where I usually work this is going to go through. This is going to go all the way. The president is going to sign this bill into law and therefore restrict the suits.

COALE: It will filibuster, 60 votes are needed. They're right on the edge. They do have Orrin Hatch, a great compromiser and a real good senator, who maybe can compromise this thing and they will get a bill.

SNOW: Do you think they will?

BEISNER: I think we will get a bill. I think it will be similar to the Senate bill that passed 253 to 170 in the House. That's a bipartisan vote.

SNOW: What about the issue with coupons being given out instead of money. The bill also deals with that. That if you have a class action suit, sometimes the settlement is just coupons. Here you are go...

COALE: I agree with you, that shouldn't be done. And It's dealt with -- it's not dealt with in the bill. They said that the judges should supervise that, but the judges already do. We need judges with some backbone.

SNOW: What's wrong with the coupons?

BEISNER: The coupon settlements are a problem. They are not permitted in federal court. They don't happen in federal court. They happen in state courts. The bill would not prevent the filing of class action lawsuit. It allows more of them to be heard in federal court where we believe they're better managed.

COALE: Where there are more Republican judges.

SNOW: Do you see this as part of a bigger effort by Republicans to restrict lawyers.

COALE: Republicans don't want their friends in corporate America to be held accountable. That's obvious especially in the last year, and this is part of that.

BEISNER: We believe this bill is the -- the opposition to the bill doesn't want lawyers to be held accountable. I strongly disagree with the notion of the last 10 years -- eight of the last ten years all of the you judges in federal courts were appointed by President Clinton.

COALE: You have 12 years before that that's who is sitting.

BEISNER: You got a mix of judges.

COALE: Bush is appointing people who wouldn't know a little guy's problem if he fell on it. They do know golf, though.

SNOW: We are going to be talking about the Justices on the Supreme Court a little bit later in this show. I want to thank our two guests. Thank you both for coming in tonight on a Friday night.

John Coale, John Beisner, both with very different on class actions. Thanks very much.

As we continue, a TV network accused of stirring up trouble in Iran. We'll have the details on NEWSNIGHT in Washington.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Folk singer Woody Guthrie kept a slogan pasted to his guitar: "This machine kills fascists," it read.

And he was on to something. Few things give dictators a tougher time than another point of view, whether it comes by way of a folk song or, these days, via satellite.

Here's CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): There's pure entertainment on Depeche TV (ph), fiery political commentary on Azadi, all of it beamed to an Iranian TV audience via satellite, from outside of Iran. And Iran's rulers are not happy, because this these protests in Iran this week were organized by the satellite channels, according to Iran's intelligence chief, Ali Unasi (ph), who was quoted by the AFP news service.

Where are the satellite broadcasters?

(on camera): The broadcasts are in Farsi, the sets suggest Iran. But, in fact, this is not Iran, but a part of the United States known in the Iranian community as Tehrangeles. Step outside of the studio door here and you see exactly where we are.

Azadi TV originates in this non-descript warehouse in the suburbs of Los Angeles, in the San Fernando Valley.

(voice-over): Phone calls and faxes, they say, come directly from Iran to the studio in Chatsworth. When viewers were told that CNN was in the studio, some spoke in English.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They asking for the government to leave the country and leave us alone.

BUCKLEY: Of course, there's no way to know for sure that the callers are really in Iran, but Iran's rulers are blaming the broadcasters for the current unrest.

And one of the stars of Azadi TV gladly says, "Guilty as charged."

(on camera): You make no apologies about trying to get protesters in the streets in Iran?

REZA FAZELI, AZADI TV: Not at all. I mean, this is what we try to do it.

BUCKLEY (voice-over): Reza Fazeli, who says he was a star of Iranian cinema -- he likens himself to Sean Connery -- now finds himself accused, along with other satellite broadcasters, of fomenting political upheaval.

FAZELI: The government of Iran says they can't do anything in on their own, and I -- from the Chatsworth, I can direct everybody in Iran against government. Good for me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All the people of Iran want is democracy in our country without any interference from any other country in the world.

BUCKLEY: At another outlet, Channel One, the set looks like it could be a backdrop for the local PBS fund drive. But instead of getting callers to pay for programming, they're trying to spark a revolution.

KANBIZ MAHMOUD, CHANNEL ONE: We can broadcast from here. No other country allow Iranian to do such a thing. So we have to take advantage of this freedom and really fight for liberty, for democracy in our country, something that we have never had.

BUCKLEY: While there's a visible allegiance to the late shah of Iran in some of the offices of the broadcasters, they claim their only agenda is freedom for Iranians.

And Reza Fazeli says he believes that day, despite the odds against it, is very close.

(on camera): Do you realistically believe there will be a change now as a result of this period of protest?

FAZELI: I tell you something and that's a fact. Clergy people, cleric government in Iran, they won't see this sun -- the dawn of 2004.

BUCKLEY (voice-over): Meanwhile the calls from Iran keep coming into the shows that are being beamed right back to where they came from.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Chatsworth, California. (END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Up next on NEWSNIGHT, a Father's Day treat: Aaron talks with Bill Cosby about fatherhood and his new book for kids.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: There are few people who can appreciate fatherhood the way Bill Cosby can. He knows the joy of having a child and the heartbreak of losing one. His son Ennis was murdered in 1997.

Bill Cosby has written a tribute to his son, a new children's book called "Friends of a Feather" illustrated by his daughter, Erica. He recently sat down with Aaron.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: You've written a number of books. How is this book different? What makes this book different?

BILL COSBY, ENTERTAINER: The fact that it's for children, but on a higher level. You can go up as high as age 37 with your children with this book, because it is about who -- when you see somebody who really loves you, why are you busy performing and doing other things for some folks you don't know? And that's what this is about.

The person who's doing the performing starts to just try to show people what it can do, and winds up damaging itself, this bird does. And the friend who loves the bird comes along and takes it in and heals it, but gives it have very good talking to about love and they have a lot of fun together and then there's a funny ending for the two.

I love it because I think that parents can use this to revisit their children. They can revisit their nephews -- anybody -- or nieces, about love. What is family love? What real love?

BROWN: Do you -- do you have regrets about the time that you spent on the road, the time you spent working, the time you didn't spend being dad?

COSBY: No.

BROWN: OK.

COSBY: No, because my wife took charge anyway. I mean, even -- had I been home, I wouldn't have been able to do anything. I mean, there's a billion fathers who know that they -- they're just there to come home and...

BROWN: Oh, come on.

COSBY: How did the children do today?

BROWN: Come on.

COSBY: I'm serious.

BROWN: You're not serious.

COSBY: Well...

BROWN: No, you're not.

COSBY: You -- do you have children?

BROWN: I do.

COSBY: Your wife let you -- you see? That's the key. I don't have to say this. Let you. No.

I remember my father, 5'11", 230 pounds.

BROWN: I'm there to say yes. I'm there to say yes. Say, Mom says...

COSBY: Yes.

BROWN: It's OK. Go ahead.

COSBY: That's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. Mr. Brown, we're saying the same thing. You know that you can't tell one of your children to do something. They'll go back and lie on you.

You see but dad said, so forth and then she comes out and she doesn't even say Well, now that I have the two of you together, we can find out who really said what. Doesn't happen that way.

BROWN: She doesn't have to lie, because she knows I will say yes all the time.

The words are terrific. The illustrations are fabulous. Talk about the illustrations in the book.

COSBY: Erica finally broke even with us.

BROWN: Erica is....

COSBY: Is the artist. That's our daughter.

BROWN: Oh.

COSBY: She graduated from Wesley and then went to the school of visual arts here and then wound up getting her masters of fine art, which is the terminal degree in art at Cal-Berkeley. Erica is not an illustrator, but I asked her to do this because this book was inspired at a time -- the Christmas that we didn't want to spend at home because Ennis had been murdered. And that's where I saw the birds flying, and that's where the story came to me. And she -- she knows what this is about, and the emotion with it.

It's not a sad story. It's a very, very happy story and it's about love. But her work is exactly what I wanted. And I explained it to her. And it's wonderful to have a child of yours who can really listen to you and then go out and do exactly what you want, and some.

BROWN: So, is it your vision or is it her vision in the illustrations?

COSBY: It's a combination.

She is the artist. She -- she is not an illustrator so, she had to learn how to illustrate. I wrote out the description of the birds. In other words -- the blue one, the blue one is one who is an angry bird because when it opens up, it disappears because it is the same color as the sky. So, it's not a happy bird.

The colors I described to her. I can't draw. And so Erica drew. She then came to me and said, Well, what do you think of this? And I said, well, you know, I think that you misinterpreted or I didn't write and then we cleared it up. But when you looked a colors and texture and style, that's Erica.

And that's what art is. If we take a melody and we say row, row, row your boat and you give it to Charlie Parker to do, I mean, it's row, row, row your boat. But when we come to the second chorus, same changes.

And that's what Erica did. She did what her fathered asked her to do, and then she Charlie Parkered it. And so, all of these textures, all of these thing, that's Erica. That background.

BROWN: They're beautiful.

COSBY: I didn't describe the sky and the ground. That's Erica.

BROWN: How is Father's Day celebrated in the Cosby house?

COSBY: For the last 15 years, the best present that I could get, I have hosted, emceed "The Playboy Jazz Festival" at the Hollywood Bowl. And from 2:00 Sunday afternoon until 10:00 p.m., I sit and I have watched Dizzy Gillespie, Miles Davis, the modern jazz quartet, Nina Simone. I mean, I have seen the Mel Torme.

And every Father's Day, that's within wonderful. My family sits in the box and they watch me introduce these artists and I have a seat and there's the stage right there. And I shake hands with the guys and I pal around with them.

BROWN: It's your day.

COSBY: Whoo! But I'm retiring. This is my last event for "The Playboy Jazz Festival." So now they're going to have to go out and get some presents.

BROWN: Final question. How are you? Sixty-five-years-old. and you feel good. You still enjoy working. How are you?

COSBY: I feel very, very good.

My wife has me under surveillance. Medical surveillance. In other words, she makes sure that I don't eat this, I eat that. I eat this way, I don't eat that way. Comes around that time in your life, man, where she starts saying, I want you around a long time and that's a good sign.

BROWN: So, you don't want to go get a burger?

COSBY: See, you put it on TV, man. Why would you ask that when she's watching? You know -- are you married?

BROWN: I am, yes.

COSBY: You must not be a bright husband.

BROWN: I'm doing the best I can.

COSBY: No, you can't be. You're talking about me eating thick that I like -- that my wife...

BROWN: I was thinking a veggie burger.

Thank you.

COSBY: Where are they?

BROWN: It's nice to meet you.

COSBY: I'm not talking to you in public anymore. You're going to get both of us in trouble. May I have a shot of Bombay Gin?

BROWN: Nice to meet you. Thank you very much.

COSBY: Thank you.

BROWN: Good luck.

COSBY: Bye-bye.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: In case you forgot, Father's Day is Sunday.

Up next on NEWSNIGHT, a Cuban exile who may be sent back because of new rules put in effect after September 11.

And then, FBI Director Robert Mueller faces off with the ACLU.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Changes in immigration rules since September 11 are giving some immigrants living in the U.S. trouble with their status. This is the story of one of them, a man who has been for decades, a prominent activist who wants to stay in the U.S. He's not from Pakistan or far away Yemen. His homeland is 90 miles from the U.S.

CNN's John Zarrella reports.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): On the morning Elian Gonzalez was taken from his great-uncle's home, Ramon Sal Sanchez (ph) stood at the door, trying to block federal agents.

His anti-Castro protests on the streets of Miami have gotten him three rides to jail. Seventeen times, Sal Sanchez, leader of the Democracia movement, led protest flotillas to the edge of Cuban territorial waters. On one occasion, Cuban gunboats nearly sank his boat.

Anyone who pays even the least attention to the Cuban exile community in Miami knows Ramon Sal Sanchez' politics and passion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this one here is under repair right now. This is the human rights. I did a hunger strike in the middle downtown Miami for the release of this vessel (UNINTELLIGIBLE) confiscated it. And we got it back.

ZARRELLA: But Sal Sanchez, who fled from Cuba to the United States in 1967, could now be sent back because of tighter immigration regulations put in place after September 11. Sal Sanchez's problem stems from the fact that he's never applied for residency or citizenship in the United States. He says that would have diluted the purity of his refugee status.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I always claim my right to return home. I will never give it up.

ZARRELLA: Recently, however, in order to get a new driver's license, he did apply for residency, but was arrested for being in the country illegally. In September, an immigration judge could order him sent back to Cuba.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the United States government chooses to send me back, handcuffed, I will not oppose it. I will let them do that, and I will leave that to their conscience.

ZARRELLA: Until his hearing, Ramon Sal Sanchez says he'll continue his protests against Castro. Next month, he's planning his 18th flotilla to the edge of Cuban waters.

John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: It is fair to say members of the American Civil Liberties Union wouldn't call this the golden age of civil liberties. The group thinks things are so dire that this week, it did something it has never done in its 83-year history, held a national membership meeting with a major adversary as the guest of honor, FBI director Robert Mueller.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One FBI official said it was like sending Daniel into the lions' den, and at first it sure looked like the 1,000 or so ACLU members were smelling blood.

ANTHONY ROMERO, ACLU EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR: We know that the FBI has a difficult and necessary mandate to protect Americans from the next terrorist attack. The ACLU also has a difficult and necessary mandate, to protect Americans from a steady and dangerous erosion of our civil liberties.

ARENA: But there was hardly a slaughter. The FBI director came armed with humor.

ROBERT MUELLER, DIRECTOR, FBI: I think you really do owe me, however, because of the increase in membership, all of you here, I probably...

ARENA: It was the first-ever membership meeting for the ACLU. The organization even helped footed the bill for some of its youngest members to attend, a fact the guest speaker sought to capitalize on.

MUELLER: And you probably think I'm here to give a talk, but actually I'm here to recruit FBI agents. So...

ARENA: The mood was light, but not the issues. The director was hit with questions regarding the PATRIOT Act, which ACLU members say infringes on personal liberties in the name of national security.

MUELLER: I will tell you this is an area that we are going to disagree...

ARENA: The detention of illegal aliens in the wake of September 11, and a Justice Department inspector general's report criticizing the way they were treated.

MUELLER: My hope is that we will never again face the situation we faced on September 11. But if we do, it is my expectation that those recommendations from the inspector general will be assimilated...

ARENA: And the FBI's new authority to obtain records from libraries and bookstores, which Mueller say is overstated.

In the end, some members were impressed but not swayed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He did kind of dodge some of the answers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's very impressive for him to come at this forum. I mean, he knew from the start that he did not have any supporters here.

ARENA (on camera): The speech may be over, but the dialogue is sure to continue, especially as the government pushes for more new powers to fight the war on terror. Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: People usually think about al Qaeda mostly in terms of the Arab world, but in fact, it's a global organization, and al Qaeda has expanded its reach by creating a terror network in Southeast Asia, according to intelligence documents obtained by CNN Jakarta bureau chief Maria Ressa. She interviewed the man officials point to as the spiritual leader of that Asian terror group.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARIA RESSA, CNN JAKARTA BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): October 12, 2002. The worst terrorist attack since September 11. Three bombs, the largest planted outside the Sari (ph) Club in Bali. The explosions designed, investigators say, to funnel people closer to the last and deadliest blast, so fierce it ruptured the internal organs of many in the club.

More than 200 people died, hundreds more injured.

Indonesian officials say the attack was the work of Jama Islamia (ph), al Qaeda's network in Southeast Asia.

The man who controls that network, officials across the region say, is Indonesian cleric Abu Bakar Ba-Ashir (ph), dubbed the Asian Osama bin Laden.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The one truth is Islam. The one thing that can save us is Islam. But we must commit to it. That is what I teach. If Islamic law is disturbed, there is no compromise.

RESSA: In some circles in Indonesia, Ba-Ashir is a revered figure. He befriended well-connected politicians like Indonesia's vice president, even though officials in Singapore and Malaysia linked him to terrorism and issued warrants for his arrest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If Islam is attacked, there are only two responses. We are victorious, or we die. That is what it means to rise up and defend Islam. That is what the infidels and Jews call violence. But if you're going to defend Islam, you either win or you die. You can't sit on the sidelines.

RESSA: Officials across Southeast Asia name Abu Bakar Ba-Ashir as the head of al Qaeda's network in the region, Jama Islamia, an organization he claims does not even exist.

Days after the Bali attacks, Ba-Ashir was arrested and eventually charged with treason.

Just before going to jail, he gave an interview to CNN. He denies any links to terrorism and emphasizes the message Indonesians have come to believe. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All of the violence in Indonesia has been engineered by America and Israel. Israel is Islam's strongest enemy, most radical. America is being used by Israel in order to attack Islam.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: You can see of Maria Ressa's report this weekend when "CNN PRESENTS: Seeds of Terror." That's this Sunday at 8:00 p.m. and again at 11:00 p.m. Eastern time.

As NEWSNIGHT continues, decisions that could be far-reaching from the Supreme Court. We'll look at the impact of upcoming decisions and the question of the summer, will there be any new justices? soon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: They're neck and neck with the gang at "60 Minutes" in terms of age, averaging right around 70 years old. And the question of who will replace them when they retire is one of the most important and controversial questions facing the country today.

We're talking, of course, about members of the Supreme Court, and the intense speculation over who's staying, who's going, and who might one day join them.

Here's CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SENIOR ANALYST (voice-over): Question, what makes this television ad attacking the president's Supreme Court nominee unusual?

Answer, the president doesn't have a Supreme Court nominee.

But the mere possibility or rumor or hunch that Chief Justice William Rehnquist or Justice Sandra Day O'Connor or some other Supreme Court justice might step down when the court term ends this summer, well, that was enough to start troop maneuvers in what will almost surely be the biggest domestic battle of this Bush's presidency.

While the Senate has battled over lower court federal judges for years, it's been more than nine years since a Supreme Court vacancy has occurred. That's the longest such gap since the 1820s.

And given the enormous power of these lifetime Supreme Court appointments, the power to strike down state and federal laws, the power to expand or limit or define rights, maybe it's not surprising that this nonpolitical branch of the federal government has in recent decades become an increasingly political battleground.

In 1968, after years of noncontroversial Supreme Court appointments, a Senate filibuster helped doom President Johnson's bid to elevate Justice Abe Fortas to chief justice. A Democratic Senate rejected both of President Nixon's first two high court nominees, Clement Haynesworth and Harold Carswell.

In 1987, another Democratic Senate turned down President Reagan's choice of Robert Bork. And in 1991, the Democratic-controlled Senate barely confirmed Clarence Thomas after perhaps the most bitter and divisive of fights.

Now, says former White House counsel Boyden Gray, who will help lead a political fight to confirm Bush's nominee, liberal interest groups are determined to block just about any choice.

C. BOYDEN GRAY, WHITE HOUSE COUNSEL, 1989-1993: What they have said is they will oppose anybody. They can't believe that the president will nominate someone who would be acceptable, so they're geared up to oppose whoever it is.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: The only time we really oppose things is when the president nominates someone way out of the mainstream. And this president, unfortunately, has chosen his judges through an ideological prism to a far greater extent than any president in history.

GREENFIELD: New York Senator Chuck Schumer says the Senate should quiz nominees about their views. But he's also submitted to the president a list of judges appointed by Republicans who would, he said, find support from most Democrats. But, he adds...

SCHUMER: If the president is going to try to change America not through the Congress, not through the presidency, but rather through filling the courts, stacking the courts with nominees who are so far over, then obviously there'll be a fight.

GREENFIELD: On that point, Boyden Gray agrees.

GRAY: If the president nominations a justice or a potential justice that we should be prepared, he, the White House, and outside supporters, should be prepared to support and oppose those who would misrepresent the candidate, the nominee.

GREENFIELD (on camera): Mr. Bush's conservative base well remembers how the first President Bush put a moderate liberal, David Souter, on the court. They want no such nominee this time. And President Bush himself has cited conservative heroes Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas as his favorite justices.

Liberals see the court as their only protection against a rollback of precedents in areas such as abortion. They want Democrats in the Senate to use every measure they can to block any justice with strong conservative views. When it comes, this battle is going to be a doozy.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: A doozy of a battle, as Jeff put it, but it might be coming. There are also some big decisions we know are coming over the next few weeks, decisions that are expected in cases involving homosexuality, affirmative action, and free speech at public libraries.

Joining us now, Chuck Lane, Supreme Court correspondent for "The Washington Post."

Thank you so much for being with us tonight.

CHARLES LANE, "THE WASHINGTON POST": Glad to be here.

SNOW: Let's start with the decisions that are going to be coming down. They come down usually on Mondays. We're going to have some interesting Mondays, I expect, in June.

LANE: Yes, the next two Mondays in June, right.

SNOW: What do you think is going to be -- what are you waiting for? What is the big one that you're as a reporter sitting and waiting for?

LANE: Well, I think you've mentioned the two biggest, the case involving affirmative action in college and graduate school admissions, and the test of the constitutionality of Texas's law, which bans consensual acts between people of the same sex.

SNOW: Let's go through both of those really quickly. The Michigan case, about affirmative action, do we have a sense which way that is going to go? And this is the policy -- give us a little bit of the background, and do we have a sense?

LANE: Well, this is a real good example of how the Supreme Court really holds the key to an issue that so divides the society, which is a question about whether or not universities in the name of a more diverse student body can give a little advantage to students who are black, Hispanic, or Native American in coming into, you know, the gateway to economic opportunity, which is college education. The court...

SNOW: Yes, and you had white students, basically, saying this isn't fair.

LANE: Absolutely. And...

SNOW: So which way is it going to go?

LANE: Well, this is an issue on which these nine justices have divided, you know, in different cases that didn't present this precise issue. And really most people believe it comes down to Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, who has so often the middle swing vote on the court. And frankly, her writings in past cases suggest she could go, I hate to be...

SNOW: Either way?

LANE: ... inconclusive, either way. So it's really two cases, one having to do with the law school, one with the undergraduate program. And it's possible they could uphold one and strike down the other and sort of reach a compromise that way.

SNOW: Yes, sort of a split decision.

LANE: Yes.

SNOW: What about the Texas case, very quickly?

LANE: Right.

SNOW: Where do you see that going?

LANE: Well, Texas, one of a handful of states that still bans consensual homosexual sex. And in 1986, the Supreme Court said, Yes, you can ban that. So this case is actually asking the court, or in taking this, the court has agreed to revisit that ruling, possibly. They could also find an alternative way to strike it down.

Most people believe they wouldn't have taken this case if they didn't...

SNOW: Plan to do something.

LANE: ... plan to do something like that, yes.

SNOW: And that could have implications, I suppose, for every state out there in the country.

LANE: Well, just -- more importantly, I think, the ones that already have these laws...

SNOW: Those laws.

LANE: ... which is really only a few. But it's symbolically very important to the gay rights movement.

SNOW: Let's get to what Jeff Greenfield was talking about. It's the big question...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... and power game in Washington to try to figure this out. First of all, who do you think is leaving?

LANE: Well...

SNOW: Is anyone leaving?

LANE: Well, I got to say, let's put it this way, the theory that they would leave hinges on the fact that this is still an off-year, there's no congressional or presidential election in 2003. So maybe the politics would be a little more convenient.

And you have two justices, Rehnquist and O'Connor, who are kind of getting up there in years, and who are Republican appointees and presumably...

SNOW: Yes.

LANE: ... like to turn their seat over while there's a Republican Senate and president.

SNOW: And then there have been all these ads running, the abortion rights advocates...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... are up in arms. My e-mail box is full, because I cover Capitol Hill...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... of people saying, This is going to be the end of Roe v. Wade if this happens. Do...

LANE: Yes, my e-mail box is full too.

SNOW: Is full too. Do you sense that this really could have very large implications? I mean, will the president pick somebody fairly conservative?

LANE: Well, I guess the only thing missing from the picture is any outward sign that any justice is actually going to retire.

SNOW: Right.

LANE: And just...

SNOW: Assuming someone does.

LANE: Yes, it would be a battle royale. I mean, everybody is gearing up for it. And the groups on either end of the spectrum, as we just saw in that piece, for them, this is their bread and butter with their constituencies. This is, you know, what rallies their people.

And I think they have a real interest in making sure that it doesn't go down without a fight.

SNOW: You saw Senator Chuck Schumer, a New York Democrat, in that piece, giving some advice to the president...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... suggesting that perhaps he could pick somebody like Senator Arlen Specter...

LANE: Right.

SNOW: ... who's sort of a moderate Republican. The president's not going to listen to Senator Chuck Schumer, is he?

LANE: No, although it's funny, Arlen Specter was actually considered briefly by President Nixon, which, among other things, indicates that Arlen Specter is already 70 years old and probably a little too old to start on the court.

But no, I don't think there's much chance George W. Bush is going to let Chuck Schumer pick his justices.

SNOW: Does he, does he have to pick a middle-of-the-road kind of person just because the Senate is so closely divided? And talk about that a little bit.

LANE: Well, I think the major political consideration they're wrestling with is over whether or not to name the first-ever Hispanic justice to the court. And a lot of people are talking about Al Gonzalez, who's the White House counsel and close personal friend and confidante of the president.

If they were looking for a way to make a kind of political move to ensure confirmation, that would be one way to do it, because it'd be very difficult, I think, even for Democrats who oppose Republican nominee, to...

SNOW: To vote against the first Hispanic nominee, right.

LANE: ... to vote against somebody who's making history, yes.

SNOW: OK, thank you so much. Appreciate you coming in...

LANE: You're welcome.

SNOW: ... on a Friday night. Charles Lane with "The Washington Post."

LANE: My pleasure.

SNOW: We'll look for your stories on this subject.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a Father's Day gift of learning how to be a dad.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SNOW: Finally from us, one last story ahead of Father's Day about men who are barely old enough to be called that, who became fathers in the strict sense of the word, and who are now determined to become something far more important, dads.

The story from CNN's Beth Nissen.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Inside an Early Head Start center in the neglected community of Far Rockaway, Queens, past the daycare program and classes for moms, an unusual gathering in a place like this, a group of fathers.

JASON SANTIAGO, 19 YEARS OLD, NEW FATHER: I got a daughter. She's 4 months today.

NISSEN (on camera): And how old are you?

SANTIAGO: I'm 19.

JAYSON FARRIS, 26 YEARS OLD, FATHER OF FOUR: I have four children, all girls. My oldest is 7, the second-oldest is 5, third- oldest is 2, and the youngest is 4 months.

KARL LESHORE, 34 YEARS OLD, FATHER OF THREE: He's a year old.

(UNINTELLIGIBLE). You want to be shy now? He talking me to death in the car.

NISSEN (voice-over): These fathers, most of them in their teens and 20s, meet every week, mostly to talk. They share their concerns, their fears.

FARRIS: Because it's scary being a father, because it's a responsibility for the rest of your life.

DAVID JONES, DIRECTOR, VISITING NURSE SERVICE, FATHERS FIRST INITIATIVE: We felt like if we were going to heal this community in some way, we needed to begin by healing families.

NISSEN: David Jones founded the fathers' support program six years ago.

JONES: Most of these guys want to be in their children's lives. They just don't know how.

NISSEN: Don't know how, in many cases, because they've never seen it done.

(on camera): Did you have a father in your life?

SANTIAGO: No. I'm one of the 15 kids of my father's.

FARRIS: Basically, you know, my father's habits and behavior stopped him from being a part of my life. And it's like traveling somewhere, and you don't have a map. You feel lost, in a sense. You know, it's, like, OK, I got this baby, what do I do?

NISSEN: Most have a strictly limited view of what fathers should do -- be breadwinners.

CHRISTOPHER ALBERTS, 22 YEARS OLD, FATHER: Before, I used to just -- whatever he need, get it for him, and then just run in the streets. Well, I gave her money, he's good and everything, he's well taken care of because he's with his mother.

JONES: Fathers see themselves as financial providers only. Takes away from so many great opportunities for them to connect to their children, to bond with their children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with Daddy.

NISSEN: Those in the Fathers First program are encouraged to redefine, expand, their ideas of what Daddy does, to include getting a sticky 2-year-old unsticky.

ALBERTS: Rub your hands together.

NISSEN: And getting a renegade toddler down for his nap.

JONES: If you have a child, and this child is your responsibility, then there's nothing that should be off-limits in terms of what you should do for that child.

ALBERTS: Throw it in the garbage, now.

NISSEN: Many of these men are surprised to find that they're good at parenting, take real pride in the work, and they are often stunned by the strength of the bonds they form with their children, by how much they are needed, wanted.

ALBERTS: When his mother's ready to leave, he'll, Bye-bye, Mommy, but he won't say Bye-bye to me, because he always wants me.

SANTIAGO: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Daddy.

NISSEN: To a man, they say being an involved father has given them a new sense of self, of capabilities, large and small.

FARRIS: I can do the laundry, I can bathe my children, you know, I know what their favorite soap is to take a bath in their bubble bath. They love Mr. Bubble, you know? Not all dads know certain things. It's more or less I'm making up for things that I didn't get. You know, I would have loved if my father had knew my favorite color.

What's the matter?

You know, me being a father, help to father the little boy that I had inside of me, you know, helped me to grow and become the man that I am today.

NISSEN: A man better able to do his share of the hardest and most important work there is.

Beth Nissen, CNN, Queens, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SNOW: Happy Father's Day.

That's NEWSNIGHT for this night and this week. I'm Kate Snow. Thanks for watching. Aaron's back on Monday. Good night.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Bill Cosby>