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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Ace of Diamonds Captured; Quiet in Benton Harbor, Michigan; Max Factor Heir Caught

Aired June 18, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
To some this would be considered a very good day for American forces in Iraq. They captured one of the big guys, the ace of diamonds, Saddam's right-hand man, a man who probably knows a lot and may be convinced to say a lot, a good day by one measure.

And a really bad day by another because like every other day this week like so many days that have come before another American soldier was killed in Iraq, number 51, since the war ended. So a good day only if you have an eye for the big picture and are able to see the small picture as no more than the inevitable cost of war.

We begin with our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre to start the whip, Jamie a headline from you tonight.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the man who is Saddam's Hussein's senior bodyguard and his closest confidante is in U.S. custody. He could hold the key to explaining the mystery of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, perhaps even the location of Saddam Hussein and his sons, that is if he talks -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, back to you at the top tonight.

Next to Iraq and a raid in Saddam country if you will, CNN's Ben Wedeman was on that and has that tonight, Ben a headline.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, well the Americans are pressing ahead with their campaign to crack down on remnants of the old regime but with two Iraqis and one American killed in Baghdad Wednesday, the dangers of the new Iraq couldn't be more apparent.

BROWN: Ben, thank you.

Next to small town Michigan and the tense and violent times there, CNN's Jeff Flock a headline from you tonight.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, so far all quiet on the streets of Benton Harbor, Michigan, nothing like a little rain and a lot of police to discourage a riot.

BROWN: Jeff, thank you.

And, finally in the whip tonight, Phoenix, Arizona, and CNN's Frank Buckley on Bishop O'Brien who is now former bishop, Frank the headline.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, less than 48 hours after being arrested and charged with the felony of fleeing the scene of a fatal traffic accident, Bishop Thomas O'Brien, the leader of the Catholic Church here in Phoenix, resigns.

BROWN: Frank, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight, love and the law, with Canada's government pushing to make same sex marriage the law of their land what will it mean to the institution of marriage south of the border? Will the United States legally recognize gay couples married in Canada?

And, long before CNN was the most trusted name in news, and we are you know, Walter Cronkite was the most trusted man in America. We'll talk with him tonight about the news, the way it was, the way it is, and for the first time in his long career the way it ought to be. At age 86, Mr. Cronkite is heading back into American homes by way of a syndicated newspaper column.

Also tonight, Nissen with a gentle looking at the hardest truth of the war in Iraq these days, the fact that the fighting isn't over and neither is the dying, all that in the hour ahead.

We begin with the good news of the night, the capture of a man whose job was watching Saddam Hussein's back, who carried out his boss' deadliest wishes, and who might, just might, have a lot to say to his American captors.

Here again our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Aside from his two sons, no one has been closer to Saddam Hussein than the man seen standing beside him here, General Abid Hamid Mahmud al-Tikriti, Saddam Hussein's cousin, personal secretary, national security advisor, and senior bodyguard.

Pentagon sources say he was captured in a raid by U.S. Special Operations forces Monday near Tikrit along with some relatives and other members of Saddam's special security forces.

General Mahmud is the ace of diamonds in the U.S. military's deck of the 55 most wanted Iraqis and fourth on the most wanted list behind only the other aces, Saddam Hussein and his sons Qusay and Uday.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is a significant capture.

MCINTYRE: Essentially third in command, Mahmud may know the location of hidden weapons of mass destruction or even Saddam Hussein himself. In fact, sources say the U.S. kept Mahmud's capture secret for a day in hopes Saddam might be nearby.

U.S. troops have rounded up some 400 suspects in three days of Operation Desert Scorpion but still no Saddam. What the U.S. has found are stockpiles of weapons, including hundreds of rocket- propelled grenades, the weapons of choice to attack U.S. forces, and stacks of cash, which the U.S. believes have been used to pay bounties to Iraqis willing to attack U.S. troops.

MAJ. GEN. RAY ODIERNO, 4TH INFANTRY DIVISION COMMANDER: It's hard to recruit individuals and we'll say if you kill American we'll pay you so much money and so they pay them in cash and they have different kinds of cash to pay different kinds of people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: So far, Pentagon sources indicate that General Mahmud isn't talking much. Today, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld indicated the Pentagon might be willing to plea bargain with some of the people it's detained in order to find out about weapons of mass destruction or perhaps Saddam Hussein's whereabouts.

But, Rumsfeld also indicated the Pentagon isn't willing to give up much to get that information, after all at this point at least the U.S. military holds most of the cards so to speak -- Aaron.

BROWN: So to speak. Two questions, first is he considered a prisoner of war, a POW in the sense of international law?

MCINTYRE: Well, the United States hasn't conferred prisoner of war status on some of these detainees yet and it's not clear if they're going to do that. If he was a prisoner of war then he'd be entitled to be visited by the International Red Cross and, as far as I know, that kind of thing hasn't happened yet. The Pentagon is basically keeping a lot of these people in limbo saying that their status has not been determined.

BROWN: And, is it the official position now of the Pentagon that Saddam to their best knowledge is in fact alive?

MCINTYRE: Well, they're operating under that assumption because they haven't found any evidence that he was killed in either of the two strikes where the U.S. tried to take him out, one at the beginning of the war and then part way through the war and there have been these persistent reports that he's been cited.

One thing they do know is that a lot of people in Iraq believe he's alive and they certainly haven't given up searching for him. Some people would say that this capture today indicates that the U.S. may be closing in on him.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

The work the Americans are doing in Iraq these days is dirty work house-to-house, watching your back sort of work, more like Vietnam in some ways than the big war with Iraq. Much of it is taking place in areas most loyal to the old regime.

CNN's Ben Wedeman went out on patrol last night with the 4th Infantry Division, 1st Brigade. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): A new haul of prisoners netted by Operation Desert Scorpion. Flat on the ground, faces in the dirt, hands bound behind their backs, men suspected of involvement in attacks on U.S. troops outside Alja (ph) the town where Saddam Hussein was born.

At this house, U.S. troops are looking for men who earlier this evening had fired on American positions. Everyone is a suspect. On a farm to the south, a thorough search, they find an AK-47 assault rifle, ammunition, night vision goggles, a sniper scope, and a lot of Iraqi dinars which don't really amount to more than $500 or $600. One by one the women of the house are brought into the kitchen and questioned about the men on the American's wanted list.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never seen him, she just heard about him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never seen him, come on now. It's your husband's brother and you've never seen him?

WEDEMAN: Outside more questions for the farm's owner, the brother of one of Saddam Hussein's senior security officials.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you get those Russian night sight from?

WEDEMAN: Plenty of questions. The answers are harder to come by. A little girl afraid, strange men speaking a strange language have taken over her home in the dead of night.

As these night raids go ahead, an unmanned spy plane controlled remotely from this truck beams back live pictures of the action on the ground. Every movement is closely watched.

Despite the very real technological advantage enjoyed by the United States, Iraqi resistance remains elusive, an annoyance American officers insist, not a major threat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And, of course, American officers are also saying that they're confident that their operations are beginning to have an impact on the situation in the Arab Sunni heartland. The situation, of course, in Baghdad is somewhat more uncertain. Two Americans have been killed, two American soldiers, have been killed in Baghdad so far this week including one Wednesday shot in a drive-by shooting in the southern part of the city -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's go back to the operation with the 4th ID. Are these sorts of operations going on in multiple locations in the country right now?

WEDEMAN: Yes, they are. In fact, there are multiple raids every night. They're focused really around the Tikrit area and also north of Baghdad around Baled so they're going on all the time. And, for instance, this raid we went along with they really didn't turn up much but it was also in that area that this Abid Hamid, the secretary of President Saddam Hussein, was found. So, really they're going on all the time in many different places, it's just some of them are more fruitful than others -- Aaron.

BROWN: And, on that last point on the arrest of the ace of diamonds, was that luck of the draw if you will or were they specifically looking for him?

WEDEMAN: Well, when we went along they were actually looking for another, somebody named Mohammed Habush (ph) who's also a top bodyguard of the president but we do know that, of course, Mr. Abid Hamid is somebody that they've been looking for for quite some time and it's in the Tikrit area that they had a good suspicion that he was there and he's certainly -- he is one of the -- he is sort of the keeper of Saddam's secrets and he's one person that definitely the Americans wanted to find.

So, it is being considered by the Americans here as quite a find. By Iraqis, on the other hand, it's sort of yesterday's news. The remnants of this regime aren't quite as important to them as getting electricity, getting jobs, and things like that, so it's big news for the Americans, for the Iraqis it's not really at all -- Aaron.

BROWN: Ben, thank you very much, Ben Wedeman who is in Baghdad. That's the Iraq story tonight.

We move on to Benton Harbor, Michigan, a small town not far from St. Joseph, just down the road from Paw Paw Lake. There's a tradition there, the 53rd Annual Charity Fruit Auction made headlines a bit earlier this month but other traditions are driving the headlines tonight.

There is poverty in Benton Harbor, massive unemployment and a bitter history of tension between the people of the town and the police force. So, tonight after two nights of rioting the town is locked down under curfew.

Here's CNN's Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FLOCK (voice-over): This massive police presence and perhaps more important a steady rain, may finally cool tensions. While Benton Harbor burned the last two nights the town has been smoldering for years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need help in this community. We had a poor, dying community that needs help and there's a cry of frustration when you see the riots.

FLOCK: What sparked the violence was 28-year-old Terrence Shurn being chased by a White police officer. Shurn crashed his motorcycle and died. The police say it was an accident but Benton Harbor erupted. This is Shurn's brother. RAYNARD SHURN, BROTHER: I cannot support the destruction of property because of the pain, frustration, and anger that we all feel, so I ask you and I beg you please stop the violence.

FLOCK: But the frustration is deeper than a single police chase. In interviews many allege unfair treatment by police and a primarily White judicial system that they say has led to wrongful convictions.

Those arrested in Benton Harbor, which is 92 percent Black, and where unemployment approaches 30 percent, go to court in neighboring St. Joseph, mostly White and affluent, unemployment two percent.

CYNTHIA CALDWELL, RESIDENT: You go across the bridge, beautiful stores, wonderful businesses. You come over here everything is boarded up, burned down. There's no jobs. There's anger. There's frustration. Where do we go?

FLOCK: Tonight, police are urging residents go nowhere, stay home, stay out of trouble.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FLOCK: And, Aaron, it appears at this hour folks are heeding that warning. Perhaps you're looking at a live picture of the streets of Benton Harbor. This is the very spot on which the last two nights the rioting broke out but it is all quiet at this hour, although I think it fair to say it's early -- back to you.

BROWN: These are state police that have moved in we saw on the back of one of the trucks. Do we have any idea how many policemen are in the city tonight?

FLOCK: We don't because it's a combination of state patrol as well as the county patrol and, of course, local law enforcement, so there's a lot of police out here and, of course, it rained earlier which kept folks pretty much inside but the rain has quit and the police are still out here so, and I think they will be throughout the night.

BROWN: Jeff, thank you very much, Jeff Flock in Michigan tonight.

On to Phoenix, Arizona another rough day in a trying week for the Roman Catholic Church in the United States, since Monday we've seen the head of the lay commission on priest sex abuse quit and the bishop of Phoenix taken to jail. Today he resigned.

Bishop Thomas O'Brien stepped down in the wake of hit-and-run charges but the allegations and ill will leading up to his resignation go far beyond that, reporting for us tonight CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY (voice-over): While Bishop Thomas O'Brien remained secluded the statement announcing his resignation made no mention of the fatal hit-and-run accident that led to his stepping down. "It became apparent" he said "that as long as I remained bishop the focus of the news media would be on me and not the church and her people."

ARCHBISHOP MICHAEL SHEEHAN, APOSTOLIC ADMINISTRATOR, PHOENIX DIOCESE: Bishop O'Brien has resigned and the holy father has accepted his resignation and appointed me to be in charge of the Diocese of Phoenix.

BUCKLEY: Archbishop Michael Sheehan, the head of the Catholic Church in Santa Fe, New Mexico was immediately appointed apostolic administrator with full authority over the Phoenix Diocese.

Bishop O'Brien's resignation came less than 48 hours after he was arrested and charged with leaving the scene of a fatal accident. That followed O'Brien's acknowledgment two weeks ago that he protected priests who had been accused of sexual abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is an absolutely incredible, unbelievable story, you could get a Hollywood script writer to write this.

BUCKLEY: Callers to KFYI Radio were overwhelmingly pleased.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bishop could have shown some class. This could have been done a long time ago.

BUCKLEY: Paul Pfaffenberger of the Survivors' Network for those abused by priests says Bishop O'Brien long ignored their concerns.

PAUL PFAFFENBERGER, SURVIVORS' NETWORK FOR THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS (SNAP): And many of us are relieved that finally Bishop O'Brien is not the leader of this diocese and we're encouraged that there will be somebody else making those decisions.

BUCKLEY: O'Brien had already relinquished his oversight authority in the sexual abuse policy of the diocese as the result of an agreement with the county attorney in which O'Brien avoided prosecution on obstruction charges.

Do you take any personal satisfaction in this ending in this way?

RICK ROMLEY, MARICOPA COUNTY ATTORNEY: Satisfaction, no. I mean this has only been hurt.

BUCKLEY: And with the resignation of O'Brien, says County Attorney Rick Romley the oversight authority may return to the new bishop.

ROMLEY: I may reconsider that depending upon the assurances that I have that there is real change within the church itself because the bishop is no longer the bishop of the Phoenix Diocese.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY: And, Bishop O'Brien's replacement, that's Archbishop Sheehan, says he plans to split his time for a while between New Mexico and Arizona while the Vatican searches for a replacement. He says the process of finding a permanent replacement here in Phoenix could take six months to a year -- Aaron.

BROWN: Frank, thank you, Frank Buckley in Phoenix tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT from New York, what effect will Canada's green light on gay marriages have in the United States?

And, part one of our extended conversation with the most trusted man in America, Walter Cronkite.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've been following news in Canada ever since a provincial court last week legalized same sex marriage in Ontario. In just that short time, gay couples have swamped the office that issues marriage licenses there but the question remained would Canada's federal government appeal the court's decision or get onboard? The answer came from Canada's prime minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CHRETIEN, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: There is revolution in the society and according to the interpretation of the courts they concluded that, you know, these unions could be -- should be legal in Canada.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Mr. Chretien says the government will draft new legislation in the coming weeks, send it on to Canada's Supreme Court to make sure everything passes legal muster. The measure would affect civil weddings only. Churches opposing gay marriage would not be forced to perform same sex weddings.

This raises a number of interesting questions here in the United States where there is enormous political opposition to the idea of gay marriages. We're joined tonight from Chicago by Neal Katyal, a professor at Georgetown University Law School, former clerk for Supreme Court Justice Stephen Briar, good to have you with us.

NEAL KATYAL, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Good to be here.

BROWN: If I am -- if I get married, a heterosexual marriage in Canada, and come to the United States is that marriage recognized everywhere in the country?

KATYAL: It is absolutely. That's the standard American policy. If you have a marriage that's celebrated and valid in one country, my parents came from India and got married there, their marriage would be valid here. Your marriage as a Canadian heterosexual couple would be valid here as well. BROWN: Then does it also follow, as A follows B, that if I get a gay marriage in Canada and come to the United States that that marriage too would be recognized?

KATYAL: No, it does not and the reason is that that general recognition principle of marriages has always had an important exception, the public policy exception, so that if a marriage violated the public policy of the American government or the state, then it wouldn't necessarily be valid.

And so, there have been examples of interracial marriages or teens that get married in one state and then move to another and they don't meet the age requirements and many times states have said we're not bound, we're not obligated to give credit to your marriage if it violates our own notion of public policy.

BROWN: Is there any other area than this one where this sort of dispute would arise?

KATYAL: Well, sure. I mean it's arisen in the courts in really three main circumstances. One is the incest cases in which you have people, say you have an uncle and a niece in New York who want to get married but New York doesn't permit uncles and nieces to get married because the familial relation is too close.

So they go to Rhode Island to get married and then move back to New York and the question is is New York obligated to recognize that marriage and the answer that the courts have generally given in state- to-state is we're not obligated to. We often do as a matter of deference recognize that marriage but they're not obligated.

And similarly here, it's possible to see a state saying we want to give credit to a marriage in Canada. We don't like the idea that a couple could live in Canada for years, a gay couple as married, get transferred for job reasons or whatever to the United States, and then lose that marriage. What if they have children, what if they have property together, all of those tough questions?

BROWN: Just setting the Canadian example aside for a second, is a civil union in Vermont where it's legal have any weight in any other state?

KATYAL: It does not.

BROWN: OK.

KATYAL: There is no -- there is no weight to the Vermont civil union.

BROWN: So, if -- back to Canada now. If this has no legal implication does it have in any sense a political implication?

KATYAL: Of course. I mean Canada has taken a step, a huge step forward for gay rights and indeed many nations around the world are taking similar steps. You know, Belgium and the Netherlands already recognize same sex marriages. And so this is a huge statement by our neighbor to the north and one that's likely to have a powerful symbolic effect though not necessarily an ultimate legal one.

It's not that states will be forced to recognize marriages from Canada in the United States but they'll be under increasing pressure in any number of circumstance, child custody and property being the two most obvious to recognize those marriages.

BROWN: In the sense that it changes somewhat the terms of the debate it doesn't seem as outrageous because look just north of the border it's perfectly legal in Canada.

KATYAL: Right, exactly, and elsewhere in the world. Lots of countries are enacting all sorts of equality protections for gay rights and here in America we're still kind of I think playing catch up a bit.

BROWN: Is it in any sense likely that gay activist groups can use this, can fashion arguments out of the decision by the Canadians that will further their efforts in the United States?

KATYAL: Absolutely. I mean one of the key arguments being made indeed in the United States Supreme Court right now is the notion of equality that if -- that laws should basically apply symmetrically between heterosexual couples and homosexual couples.

And Canada has taken the step to say the principle of equality, not some arcane principle like privacy, but one of equality mandates similar treatment for marriages of gay and heterosexual couples and that type of reasoning I think will be used by activists here as well.

BROWN: Professor, thanks for your time tonight, good to have you with us, nice job too.

KATYAL: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you.

Later on NEWSNIGHT, how one American family deals with the death of their son in Iraq after the fighting was supposed to be over.

And next, the man who gained fame in the D.C. area sniper attack says he's leaving the Montgomery County Police Department. We'll tell you why.

Look at some of the other stories making news, take a break first, around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A quick look at some of the other stories that made news today starting with the changing of the guard at the Pentagon, President Bush today nominating Army Lieutenant General John Abizaid to replace Tommy Franks as the head of the Central Command. After Senate approval, the general would have responsibility for troops in the region that includes Iraq and stretches from Egypt to Afghanistan. General Franks scheduled to retire early next month.

The man who became the face of the Washington, D.C. area sniper investigation is stepping down. Montgomery County Maryland's Police Chief Charles Moose resigned in part over controversy surrounding a book and movie deal he's involved in. The county said no to the deal, called it an ethics violation. The chief disagreed and so he will officially leave his position on the 28th of June.

And finally, Andrew Luster, an heir to the Max Factor fortune and the object of an international manhunt is in custody tonight after he fled in the middle of his trial on rape charges five months ago.

Mr. Luster was captured in Mexico and is being held in jail along with Duane "Dog" Chapman, a bounty hunter who has been tracking him. Mr. Chapman's two sons and two members of a TV crew as well, not clear if Mr. Luster will be deported from Mexico or if it will be necessary for a formal extradition process to take place.

A few more items around the world before we go to break, starting at the White House and a presidential warning to Iran. President Bush today said he and other world leaders would not tolerate nuclear weapons in Iran. The president also warned Iran to treat anti- government protesters there, these protests have been going on for days, with what he called the "utmost respect."

In Paris, three Iranians set themselves afire today. They did it apparently to protest the crackdown on members of an Iranian dissident group that the French and American officials say is a terrorist organization. My goodness. Two women died in flames. A male protester is hospitalized. Similar incidents also took place in Switzerland and in the U.K. Fortunately, with no fatalities.

And what looked like a discovery for the ages is probably the hopes of the year instead. Scientists in Israel say the burial box thought to have contained the bones of Jesus' brother James is real, but the inscription "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" was a recent addition.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, we talk with Walter Cronkite about his plans to write a newspaper column and his thoughts on television news today. We take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you are of a certain age, and I admit right now that I am, then the word "anchorman" can only conjure up one image in your mind, that of Walter Cronkite. The rest of us just do the work he, in many ways, invented. For a number of reasons, Mr. Cronkite has been in the news of late. He started a newspaper column, "Opinion," from a man who kept most of his opinions to himself.

We sat down to talk about that and a few other things today, the standard NEWSNIGHT four minute and 30-second interview. We stopped 20 minutes later. We'll run it all in two parts, part two tomorrow. Part one now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You're going to start writing a column, a newspaper column. Why do you want to do that?

WALTER CRONKITE: Well, actually, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for the challenge, really, of doing it. I am fairly busy, because of lecturing and writing for other publications, and so forth. But the discipline of a weekly column sounded like it was interesting. And also, I think maybe I've got something to say. I said to somebody who asked me that question, "I must be mad." And then I kind of dollied that up a bit by saying "not psychologically so much as politically." I've got a few things to say about the way things are going to the world.

BROWN: What are you mad about? What are the political things that get under your skin these days?

CRONKITE: Well, quite honestly, the administration foreign policy is the thing that bothers me the most. Although I also have some quarrels with its domestic policy, particularly in the tax bracket -- tax area. It seems to me that instead of cutting taxes, we ought to be increasing the taxes to pay off the deficit, rather than let that thing build up to the point where our grandchildren's grandchildren are going to be paying for our period of time and our years at the helm, if you please.

So these are the things. The foreign policy, particularly, ever since the president, in his policy statement a year and a half or so ago proclaimed the discipline of preemptive strikes I have been concerned. I think that we have to understand that, of course, if we know that there is a terrorist threat brewing, why, we've got to do something about it. And that's -- it might be called a preemptive strike, but that is against a group and not against a nation most of the time. We've interpreted it as such with Iraq. But meanwhile, it gives every small nation a credo there that has been enunciated by the United States that they've got argument -- a border argument with the next little nation next to them, and that it's all right to go ahead and start a war.

BROWN: Do you ever worry that even at 86 and even long retired from the anchor chair at CBS, that in the public's mind, Walter Cronkite is not entitled to express public opinions?

CRONKITE: Yes, I am concerned about that. And I've already been attacked for that, by Bill O'Reilly, who had the temerity to suggest that I was an internationalist. I never knew that that was to be condemned. I thought we ought to all be internationalists in these days when we are supposed to be the world's greatest power and have all this influence around the world. We'd better be paying attention, it seemed, internationally.

But yes, the more subtle thing with the general public, I think is there, to a degree. And also, what I am concerned about a little bit is this motto that almost goes with my name these days, "the most trusted man in America."

I can argue about that and make a few points about it, which show the ridiculous nature of that.

BROWN: But there are worse things people could say about you.

CRONKITE: It is a reputation, I don't want to lose that by taking sides, but I still should do so.

BROWN: In that respect, is it sometimes a burden to be Walter Cronkite?

CRONKITE: Not too much of one, not too much of one, Aaron. I enjoy the notoriety, if that's what it is. The only place where it has bothered me, really, was when my children were small and trying to go to the park with them, and that sort of thing, and having people come up and ask for autographs, take your picture, this sort of thing you get all the time, we all get. That's an interruption, and it plants with the kids the idea that you're something different than the other fathers. And I didn't like that.

BROWN: David Brinkley died last week. And so as we sit here, you're the last of that generation, who, in many respects, invented this business. Is it a better journalistic business today? Television? You won't hurt my feelings -- maybe -- than it was 30 years ago?

CRONKITE: Is it better today?

BROWN: Is it better today?

CRONKITE: It is technically considerably better, of course.

BROWN: There's a left-handed compliment.

CRONKITE: Satellites and all that sort of thing, sure. Cellular phones, all those.

BROWN: Journalistically better?

CRONKITE: Journalistically, which is what I knew you were asking when I thought I'd dodge the question -- journalistically, I don't think it's better, no. I -- since -- believe it's not quite as good. We had, you see, we had it really our own way, David and Chet and I and whoever was at ABC, they kind of came in later, as you know. Their work was not formed until they broke up NBC. And they came along a little later.

But we -- but still, as they came along, we -- the three of us shared 98 percent of the audience. Ninety-eight percent of the television sets in the United States were tuned to one of the three of us. So we basically shared a third of the nation, was tuned to one or the other of us, at all times. And having it alone like that, we didn't come under the same 33 percent of the audience, big ratings, we didn't come under the same kind of pressure that I think the networks are under today with all of the competition of the cable networks. Your news program certainly attracts a large number of people who might otherwise have watched the 6:30 news or watched one of the special shows. This is the sort of thing that causes them to say, you've got to make the program more interesting. That word "interesting" is being used instead of the word that would get the hackles up of every newsperson, and that's got to be more entertaining.

And as such, we see an awful lot of feature material thrown into that minimum 19 minutes is all they've got on that half-hour broadcast, after the subtraction of the commercials and other stuff. And I don't think that your pocketbook and mine, your health and mine, I don't think that stuff belongs in the evening news.

We're a very complicated nation, for heaven's sakes. We're living in a very complicated world in which we are presumed today to be the leaders, leaders of the democratic nations, at any rate. We don't have time for that. The half hour isn't time enough. The 19 minutes isn't time enough, if we filled all of those minutes with solid news.

BROWN: Do you think that the network newscasts, the 30-minute network newscasts at dinnertime is in some respects an anachronism?

CRONKITE: I would hate to think it's an anachronism. I'd like to think that the networks would say to themselves, "let's do a little different job in order to compete with all of this proliferation of cable." I think one thing they ought to do is try to convince the affiliate stations who are the blocks who are taking more time, convince them they've got to have an hour evening news program. I think I'd like to see them use their magazine programs, which they now have prime-time, which we begged for in our days, we wanted to be on at 10:30 when people were home and all that kind of thing. We never could get into prime-time. Now they've all got a magazine program during the week. Why couldn't they take that time to do the serious backgrounding of the headlines that they have given in their half-hour newscast and really elevate our understanding of this complicated world we live in, instead of giving us crime and sex and Hollywood, that kind of thing?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Walter Cronkite. Tomorrow in our conversation with Mr. Cronkite, we'll get his take on the coverage of the war in Iraq. We talked about the Kennedy assassination and his coverage of that. And we'll play that for you tomorrow.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, "Segment 7," and the family's grief over losing a son after the fighting was supposedly over. Break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There's something cold about this reality. The young men who die in Iraq these days, and 51 have died since the war ended, get less attention than those who died during the first phase of the war. The deaths are no less important, the pain their families feel no less great. It's just that perhaps both we and the country have moved on in one way or another. So tonight, one soldier's story, one life cut short, one family grieving. There are 50 others just like it. Here's NEWSNIGHT's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To the family of Private First Class Branden Overlightner (ph), they're now priceless treasures, the snapshots of Branden as a boy, of Branden in Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There he is in Mosul right here.

NISSEN: Friends in his home town of Worthington, Ohio said Branden had talked for years about joining the military.

PFC ANDREW ATWOOD, CHILDHOOD FRIEND: He always wanted more out of life than just staying around here and doing the daily grind.

NISSEN: Branden enlisted in the Army in the 101st Airborne.

KEITH LUCE, FAMILY FRIEND: He wanted to be at the tip of the spear. He wanted to be on the front.

NISSEN: Branden's unit, Company B, 2nd Battalion, 502 (ph) Infantry Regiment was deployed to Iraq. His worried parents did their best to track the unit as it advanced toward Baghdad.

FREEMAN CARMACK, BRANDEN'S STEPFATHER; There were nights where it was just very hard to sleep because of the anxiety. And we'd get up in the middle of the night and just turn the TV on.

NISSEN: The news was far from reassuring. Branden's unit saw frequent action in Najaf, Karbala, Mosul.

STAFF SGT. HANK HAMBLIN, 101ST AIRBORNE: A lot of explosions, a lot of bullets flying around, a lot of -- just like you see in the movies, I mean, just a little bit closer.

NISSEN: After U.S. troops took Baghdad, Branden's friends and families dared to hope that he'd soon be coming home.

CARMACK: The last letter that we received, there was some mention of maybe within possibly within 90 days, that he'd be rotated out.

NISSEN: But shortly after midnight on June 5, Branden's unit pulled up to a checkpoint in Fallujah, 30 miles west of Baghdad, and was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade.

HAMBLIN: After that we started taking small arms from the left side. Six others were injured. Medevac was attempted for the other injured soldiers. Overlightner (ph) was dead immediately.

NISSEN: Branden's grief-stunned family, a battalion of friends and a good number of strangers, came to his funeral Tuesday, one day before what would have been Branden's 21st birthday. Somehow they made it through the age-old rituals of honor for the war dead.

Those who knew and loved Branden Overlightner (ph) clung to the assurance that the nation was grateful, clung to the hope that people still noted, still cared about the distant country where he fought and died.

LUCE: These young soldiers are in as much as danger now as they were when they had the entire force moving north. The young Marines are out there every day on patrols. Air Force crews are flying combat missions. The Army troopers are in the cities, door to door. But Brandens in this world are still carrying on a mission.

NISSEN: A mission not over until every last soldier comes home.

Beth Nissen, CNN, Worthington, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll check morning papers after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: That whole naked man scare shark to death story, I don't get that at all. Time to check morning papers from across the country and across the country, let's start with "The New York Times." Lots of good things in "The Times," but I suspect this one will get a fair amount of attention. It should. Up in the corner here "White House Cuts Data on Warming," global warming. "In EPA reports, some at agency protest the White House," according to the story, "Demanded changes, deleting lots of references to global warming and studies on its cause." I'm sure that will play out tomorrow.

Also, down at the bottom here in "The Times "Y Chromosome Depends on Itself to Survive," big breakthrough in understanding the Y chromosome, the male chromosome.

"USA Today" also, if I can get my hands on it, also has that story. "A Study Makes Sense of Y Chromosome." "Scientists have decoded the male Y chromosome, solving the mystery about how the chromosome works and why men exists." It turns out they exist to watch sports on television. I didn't know that, but the study now confirms it.

"The San Francisco Chronicle," pretty good story on the front page of "The Chronicle" tomorrow. "Witness: Cops Coached Me to Lie in Murder Case." Chief Sanders, he was the guy that had some problems a few months back, and partner Hendrix (ph) are implicated. So we'll watch how that plays out. The DNA story on the front page in San Francisco.

Oh, my goodness, we're running out of time already. "The Detroit Free Press," Benton Harbor at the top. Of course, there has to be a car story, an auto story. Down at the bottom, "Report Confirms GM Chrysler Are More Efficient," more efficient than what I do not know.

"The Detroit News," "17 Detroit Cops Face Charges." Man, the police department there has lots of problems. Their auto story, "At 50, Corvette's Speed Curves Still Fuel Passion." There we go.

And the weather tomorrow in Chicago, by the way, is oh-la-la.

We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Michigan; Max Factor Heir Caught>


Aired June 18, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
To some this would be considered a very good day for American forces in Iraq. They captured one of the big guys, the ace of diamonds, Saddam's right-hand man, a man who probably knows a lot and may be convinced to say a lot, a good day by one measure.

And a really bad day by another because like every other day this week like so many days that have come before another American soldier was killed in Iraq, number 51, since the war ended. So a good day only if you have an eye for the big picture and are able to see the small picture as no more than the inevitable cost of war.

We begin with our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre to start the whip, Jamie a headline from you tonight.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, the man who is Saddam's Hussein's senior bodyguard and his closest confidante is in U.S. custody. He could hold the key to explaining the mystery of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction, perhaps even the location of Saddam Hussein and his sons, that is if he talks -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, back to you at the top tonight.

Next to Iraq and a raid in Saddam country if you will, CNN's Ben Wedeman was on that and has that tonight, Ben a headline.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, well the Americans are pressing ahead with their campaign to crack down on remnants of the old regime but with two Iraqis and one American killed in Baghdad Wednesday, the dangers of the new Iraq couldn't be more apparent.

BROWN: Ben, thank you.

Next to small town Michigan and the tense and violent times there, CNN's Jeff Flock a headline from you tonight.

JEFF FLOCK, CNN CHICAGO BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, so far all quiet on the streets of Benton Harbor, Michigan, nothing like a little rain and a lot of police to discourage a riot.

BROWN: Jeff, thank you.

And, finally in the whip tonight, Phoenix, Arizona, and CNN's Frank Buckley on Bishop O'Brien who is now former bishop, Frank the headline.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, less than 48 hours after being arrested and charged with the felony of fleeing the scene of a fatal traffic accident, Bishop Thomas O'Brien, the leader of the Catholic Church here in Phoenix, resigns.

BROWN: Frank, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight, love and the law, with Canada's government pushing to make same sex marriage the law of their land what will it mean to the institution of marriage south of the border? Will the United States legally recognize gay couples married in Canada?

And, long before CNN was the most trusted name in news, and we are you know, Walter Cronkite was the most trusted man in America. We'll talk with him tonight about the news, the way it was, the way it is, and for the first time in his long career the way it ought to be. At age 86, Mr. Cronkite is heading back into American homes by way of a syndicated newspaper column.

Also tonight, Nissen with a gentle looking at the hardest truth of the war in Iraq these days, the fact that the fighting isn't over and neither is the dying, all that in the hour ahead.

We begin with the good news of the night, the capture of a man whose job was watching Saddam Hussein's back, who carried out his boss' deadliest wishes, and who might, just might, have a lot to say to his American captors.

Here again our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Aside from his two sons, no one has been closer to Saddam Hussein than the man seen standing beside him here, General Abid Hamid Mahmud al-Tikriti, Saddam Hussein's cousin, personal secretary, national security advisor, and senior bodyguard.

Pentagon sources say he was captured in a raid by U.S. Special Operations forces Monday near Tikrit along with some relatives and other members of Saddam's special security forces.

General Mahmud is the ace of diamonds in the U.S. military's deck of the 55 most wanted Iraqis and fourth on the most wanted list behind only the other aces, Saddam Hussein and his sons Qusay and Uday.

ARI FLEISCHER, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: This is a significant capture.

MCINTYRE: Essentially third in command, Mahmud may know the location of hidden weapons of mass destruction or even Saddam Hussein himself. In fact, sources say the U.S. kept Mahmud's capture secret for a day in hopes Saddam might be nearby.

U.S. troops have rounded up some 400 suspects in three days of Operation Desert Scorpion but still no Saddam. What the U.S. has found are stockpiles of weapons, including hundreds of rocket- propelled grenades, the weapons of choice to attack U.S. forces, and stacks of cash, which the U.S. believes have been used to pay bounties to Iraqis willing to attack U.S. troops.

MAJ. GEN. RAY ODIERNO, 4TH INFANTRY DIVISION COMMANDER: It's hard to recruit individuals and we'll say if you kill American we'll pay you so much money and so they pay them in cash and they have different kinds of cash to pay different kinds of people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: So far, Pentagon sources indicate that General Mahmud isn't talking much. Today, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld indicated the Pentagon might be willing to plea bargain with some of the people it's detained in order to find out about weapons of mass destruction or perhaps Saddam Hussein's whereabouts.

But, Rumsfeld also indicated the Pentagon isn't willing to give up much to get that information, after all at this point at least the U.S. military holds most of the cards so to speak -- Aaron.

BROWN: So to speak. Two questions, first is he considered a prisoner of war, a POW in the sense of international law?

MCINTYRE: Well, the United States hasn't conferred prisoner of war status on some of these detainees yet and it's not clear if they're going to do that. If he was a prisoner of war then he'd be entitled to be visited by the International Red Cross and, as far as I know, that kind of thing hasn't happened yet. The Pentagon is basically keeping a lot of these people in limbo saying that their status has not been determined.

BROWN: And, is it the official position now of the Pentagon that Saddam to their best knowledge is in fact alive?

MCINTYRE: Well, they're operating under that assumption because they haven't found any evidence that he was killed in either of the two strikes where the U.S. tried to take him out, one at the beginning of the war and then part way through the war and there have been these persistent reports that he's been cited.

One thing they do know is that a lot of people in Iraq believe he's alive and they certainly haven't given up searching for him. Some people would say that this capture today indicates that the U.S. may be closing in on him.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

The work the Americans are doing in Iraq these days is dirty work house-to-house, watching your back sort of work, more like Vietnam in some ways than the big war with Iraq. Much of it is taking place in areas most loyal to the old regime.

CNN's Ben Wedeman went out on patrol last night with the 4th Infantry Division, 1st Brigade. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): A new haul of prisoners netted by Operation Desert Scorpion. Flat on the ground, faces in the dirt, hands bound behind their backs, men suspected of involvement in attacks on U.S. troops outside Alja (ph) the town where Saddam Hussein was born.

At this house, U.S. troops are looking for men who earlier this evening had fired on American positions. Everyone is a suspect. On a farm to the south, a thorough search, they find an AK-47 assault rifle, ammunition, night vision goggles, a sniper scope, and a lot of Iraqi dinars which don't really amount to more than $500 or $600. One by one the women of the house are brought into the kitchen and questioned about the men on the American's wanted list.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She never seen him, she just heard about him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never seen him, come on now. It's your husband's brother and you've never seen him?

WEDEMAN: Outside more questions for the farm's owner, the brother of one of Saddam Hussein's senior security officials.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where do you get those Russian night sight from?

WEDEMAN: Plenty of questions. The answers are harder to come by. A little girl afraid, strange men speaking a strange language have taken over her home in the dead of night.

As these night raids go ahead, an unmanned spy plane controlled remotely from this truck beams back live pictures of the action on the ground. Every movement is closely watched.

Despite the very real technological advantage enjoyed by the United States, Iraqi resistance remains elusive, an annoyance American officers insist, not a major threat.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And, of course, American officers are also saying that they're confident that their operations are beginning to have an impact on the situation in the Arab Sunni heartland. The situation, of course, in Baghdad is somewhat more uncertain. Two Americans have been killed, two American soldiers, have been killed in Baghdad so far this week including one Wednesday shot in a drive-by shooting in the southern part of the city -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's go back to the operation with the 4th ID. Are these sorts of operations going on in multiple locations in the country right now?

WEDEMAN: Yes, they are. In fact, there are multiple raids every night. They're focused really around the Tikrit area and also north of Baghdad around Baled so they're going on all the time. And, for instance, this raid we went along with they really didn't turn up much but it was also in that area that this Abid Hamid, the secretary of President Saddam Hussein, was found. So, really they're going on all the time in many different places, it's just some of them are more fruitful than others -- Aaron.

BROWN: And, on that last point on the arrest of the ace of diamonds, was that luck of the draw if you will or were they specifically looking for him?

WEDEMAN: Well, when we went along they were actually looking for another, somebody named Mohammed Habush (ph) who's also a top bodyguard of the president but we do know that, of course, Mr. Abid Hamid is somebody that they've been looking for for quite some time and it's in the Tikrit area that they had a good suspicion that he was there and he's certainly -- he is one of the -- he is sort of the keeper of Saddam's secrets and he's one person that definitely the Americans wanted to find.

So, it is being considered by the Americans here as quite a find. By Iraqis, on the other hand, it's sort of yesterday's news. The remnants of this regime aren't quite as important to them as getting electricity, getting jobs, and things like that, so it's big news for the Americans, for the Iraqis it's not really at all -- Aaron.

BROWN: Ben, thank you very much, Ben Wedeman who is in Baghdad. That's the Iraq story tonight.

We move on to Benton Harbor, Michigan, a small town not far from St. Joseph, just down the road from Paw Paw Lake. There's a tradition there, the 53rd Annual Charity Fruit Auction made headlines a bit earlier this month but other traditions are driving the headlines tonight.

There is poverty in Benton Harbor, massive unemployment and a bitter history of tension between the people of the town and the police force. So, tonight after two nights of rioting the town is locked down under curfew.

Here's CNN's Jeff Flock.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FLOCK (voice-over): This massive police presence and perhaps more important a steady rain, may finally cool tensions. While Benton Harbor burned the last two nights the town has been smoldering for years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We need help in this community. We had a poor, dying community that needs help and there's a cry of frustration when you see the riots.

FLOCK: What sparked the violence was 28-year-old Terrence Shurn being chased by a White police officer. Shurn crashed his motorcycle and died. The police say it was an accident but Benton Harbor erupted. This is Shurn's brother. RAYNARD SHURN, BROTHER: I cannot support the destruction of property because of the pain, frustration, and anger that we all feel, so I ask you and I beg you please stop the violence.

FLOCK: But the frustration is deeper than a single police chase. In interviews many allege unfair treatment by police and a primarily White judicial system that they say has led to wrongful convictions.

Those arrested in Benton Harbor, which is 92 percent Black, and where unemployment approaches 30 percent, go to court in neighboring St. Joseph, mostly White and affluent, unemployment two percent.

CYNTHIA CALDWELL, RESIDENT: You go across the bridge, beautiful stores, wonderful businesses. You come over here everything is boarded up, burned down. There's no jobs. There's anger. There's frustration. Where do we go?

FLOCK: Tonight, police are urging residents go nowhere, stay home, stay out of trouble.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FLOCK: And, Aaron, it appears at this hour folks are heeding that warning. Perhaps you're looking at a live picture of the streets of Benton Harbor. This is the very spot on which the last two nights the rioting broke out but it is all quiet at this hour, although I think it fair to say it's early -- back to you.

BROWN: These are state police that have moved in we saw on the back of one of the trucks. Do we have any idea how many policemen are in the city tonight?

FLOCK: We don't because it's a combination of state patrol as well as the county patrol and, of course, local law enforcement, so there's a lot of police out here and, of course, it rained earlier which kept folks pretty much inside but the rain has quit and the police are still out here so, and I think they will be throughout the night.

BROWN: Jeff, thank you very much, Jeff Flock in Michigan tonight.

On to Phoenix, Arizona another rough day in a trying week for the Roman Catholic Church in the United States, since Monday we've seen the head of the lay commission on priest sex abuse quit and the bishop of Phoenix taken to jail. Today he resigned.

Bishop Thomas O'Brien stepped down in the wake of hit-and-run charges but the allegations and ill will leading up to his resignation go far beyond that, reporting for us tonight CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY (voice-over): While Bishop Thomas O'Brien remained secluded the statement announcing his resignation made no mention of the fatal hit-and-run accident that led to his stepping down. "It became apparent" he said "that as long as I remained bishop the focus of the news media would be on me and not the church and her people."

ARCHBISHOP MICHAEL SHEEHAN, APOSTOLIC ADMINISTRATOR, PHOENIX DIOCESE: Bishop O'Brien has resigned and the holy father has accepted his resignation and appointed me to be in charge of the Diocese of Phoenix.

BUCKLEY: Archbishop Michael Sheehan, the head of the Catholic Church in Santa Fe, New Mexico was immediately appointed apostolic administrator with full authority over the Phoenix Diocese.

Bishop O'Brien's resignation came less than 48 hours after he was arrested and charged with leaving the scene of a fatal accident. That followed O'Brien's acknowledgment two weeks ago that he protected priests who had been accused of sexual abuse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is an absolutely incredible, unbelievable story, you could get a Hollywood script writer to write this.

BUCKLEY: Callers to KFYI Radio were overwhelmingly pleased.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The bishop could have shown some class. This could have been done a long time ago.

BUCKLEY: Paul Pfaffenberger of the Survivors' Network for those abused by priests says Bishop O'Brien long ignored their concerns.

PAUL PFAFFENBERGER, SURVIVORS' NETWORK FOR THOSE ABUSED BY PRIESTS (SNAP): And many of us are relieved that finally Bishop O'Brien is not the leader of this diocese and we're encouraged that there will be somebody else making those decisions.

BUCKLEY: O'Brien had already relinquished his oversight authority in the sexual abuse policy of the diocese as the result of an agreement with the county attorney in which O'Brien avoided prosecution on obstruction charges.

Do you take any personal satisfaction in this ending in this way?

RICK ROMLEY, MARICOPA COUNTY ATTORNEY: Satisfaction, no. I mean this has only been hurt.

BUCKLEY: And with the resignation of O'Brien, says County Attorney Rick Romley the oversight authority may return to the new bishop.

ROMLEY: I may reconsider that depending upon the assurances that I have that there is real change within the church itself because the bishop is no longer the bishop of the Phoenix Diocese.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY: And, Bishop O'Brien's replacement, that's Archbishop Sheehan, says he plans to split his time for a while between New Mexico and Arizona while the Vatican searches for a replacement. He says the process of finding a permanent replacement here in Phoenix could take six months to a year -- Aaron.

BROWN: Frank, thank you, Frank Buckley in Phoenix tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT from New York, what effect will Canada's green light on gay marriages have in the United States?

And, part one of our extended conversation with the most trusted man in America, Walter Cronkite.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've been following news in Canada ever since a provincial court last week legalized same sex marriage in Ontario. In just that short time, gay couples have swamped the office that issues marriage licenses there but the question remained would Canada's federal government appeal the court's decision or get onboard? The answer came from Canada's prime minister.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEAN CHRETIEN, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: There is revolution in the society and according to the interpretation of the courts they concluded that, you know, these unions could be -- should be legal in Canada.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Mr. Chretien says the government will draft new legislation in the coming weeks, send it on to Canada's Supreme Court to make sure everything passes legal muster. The measure would affect civil weddings only. Churches opposing gay marriage would not be forced to perform same sex weddings.

This raises a number of interesting questions here in the United States where there is enormous political opposition to the idea of gay marriages. We're joined tonight from Chicago by Neal Katyal, a professor at Georgetown University Law School, former clerk for Supreme Court Justice Stephen Briar, good to have you with us.

NEAL KATYAL, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Good to be here.

BROWN: If I am -- if I get married, a heterosexual marriage in Canada, and come to the United States is that marriage recognized everywhere in the country?

KATYAL: It is absolutely. That's the standard American policy. If you have a marriage that's celebrated and valid in one country, my parents came from India and got married there, their marriage would be valid here. Your marriage as a Canadian heterosexual couple would be valid here as well. BROWN: Then does it also follow, as A follows B, that if I get a gay marriage in Canada and come to the United States that that marriage too would be recognized?

KATYAL: No, it does not and the reason is that that general recognition principle of marriages has always had an important exception, the public policy exception, so that if a marriage violated the public policy of the American government or the state, then it wouldn't necessarily be valid.

And so, there have been examples of interracial marriages or teens that get married in one state and then move to another and they don't meet the age requirements and many times states have said we're not bound, we're not obligated to give credit to your marriage if it violates our own notion of public policy.

BROWN: Is there any other area than this one where this sort of dispute would arise?

KATYAL: Well, sure. I mean it's arisen in the courts in really three main circumstances. One is the incest cases in which you have people, say you have an uncle and a niece in New York who want to get married but New York doesn't permit uncles and nieces to get married because the familial relation is too close.

So they go to Rhode Island to get married and then move back to New York and the question is is New York obligated to recognize that marriage and the answer that the courts have generally given in state- to-state is we're not obligated to. We often do as a matter of deference recognize that marriage but they're not obligated.

And similarly here, it's possible to see a state saying we want to give credit to a marriage in Canada. We don't like the idea that a couple could live in Canada for years, a gay couple as married, get transferred for job reasons or whatever to the United States, and then lose that marriage. What if they have children, what if they have property together, all of those tough questions?

BROWN: Just setting the Canadian example aside for a second, is a civil union in Vermont where it's legal have any weight in any other state?

KATYAL: It does not.

BROWN: OK.

KATYAL: There is no -- there is no weight to the Vermont civil union.

BROWN: So, if -- back to Canada now. If this has no legal implication does it have in any sense a political implication?

KATYAL: Of course. I mean Canada has taken a step, a huge step forward for gay rights and indeed many nations around the world are taking similar steps. You know, Belgium and the Netherlands already recognize same sex marriages. And so this is a huge statement by our neighbor to the north and one that's likely to have a powerful symbolic effect though not necessarily an ultimate legal one.

It's not that states will be forced to recognize marriages from Canada in the United States but they'll be under increasing pressure in any number of circumstance, child custody and property being the two most obvious to recognize those marriages.

BROWN: In the sense that it changes somewhat the terms of the debate it doesn't seem as outrageous because look just north of the border it's perfectly legal in Canada.

KATYAL: Right, exactly, and elsewhere in the world. Lots of countries are enacting all sorts of equality protections for gay rights and here in America we're still kind of I think playing catch up a bit.

BROWN: Is it in any sense likely that gay activist groups can use this, can fashion arguments out of the decision by the Canadians that will further their efforts in the United States?

KATYAL: Absolutely. I mean one of the key arguments being made indeed in the United States Supreme Court right now is the notion of equality that if -- that laws should basically apply symmetrically between heterosexual couples and homosexual couples.

And Canada has taken the step to say the principle of equality, not some arcane principle like privacy, but one of equality mandates similar treatment for marriages of gay and heterosexual couples and that type of reasoning I think will be used by activists here as well.

BROWN: Professor, thanks for your time tonight, good to have you with us, nice job too.

KATYAL: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you.

Later on NEWSNIGHT, how one American family deals with the death of their son in Iraq after the fighting was supposed to be over.

And next, the man who gained fame in the D.C. area sniper attack says he's leaving the Montgomery County Police Department. We'll tell you why.

Look at some of the other stories making news, take a break first, around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A quick look at some of the other stories that made news today starting with the changing of the guard at the Pentagon, President Bush today nominating Army Lieutenant General John Abizaid to replace Tommy Franks as the head of the Central Command. After Senate approval, the general would have responsibility for troops in the region that includes Iraq and stretches from Egypt to Afghanistan. General Franks scheduled to retire early next month.

The man who became the face of the Washington, D.C. area sniper investigation is stepping down. Montgomery County Maryland's Police Chief Charles Moose resigned in part over controversy surrounding a book and movie deal he's involved in. The county said no to the deal, called it an ethics violation. The chief disagreed and so he will officially leave his position on the 28th of June.

And finally, Andrew Luster, an heir to the Max Factor fortune and the object of an international manhunt is in custody tonight after he fled in the middle of his trial on rape charges five months ago.

Mr. Luster was captured in Mexico and is being held in jail along with Duane "Dog" Chapman, a bounty hunter who has been tracking him. Mr. Chapman's two sons and two members of a TV crew as well, not clear if Mr. Luster will be deported from Mexico or if it will be necessary for a formal extradition process to take place.

A few more items around the world before we go to break, starting at the White House and a presidential warning to Iran. President Bush today said he and other world leaders would not tolerate nuclear weapons in Iran. The president also warned Iran to treat anti- government protesters there, these protests have been going on for days, with what he called the "utmost respect."

In Paris, three Iranians set themselves afire today. They did it apparently to protest the crackdown on members of an Iranian dissident group that the French and American officials say is a terrorist organization. My goodness. Two women died in flames. A male protester is hospitalized. Similar incidents also took place in Switzerland and in the U.K. Fortunately, with no fatalities.

And what looked like a discovery for the ages is probably the hopes of the year instead. Scientists in Israel say the burial box thought to have contained the bones of Jesus' brother James is real, but the inscription "James, son of Joseph, brother of Jesus" was a recent addition.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, we talk with Walter Cronkite about his plans to write a newspaper column and his thoughts on television news today. We take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If you are of a certain age, and I admit right now that I am, then the word "anchorman" can only conjure up one image in your mind, that of Walter Cronkite. The rest of us just do the work he, in many ways, invented. For a number of reasons, Mr. Cronkite has been in the news of late. He started a newspaper column, "Opinion," from a man who kept most of his opinions to himself.

We sat down to talk about that and a few other things today, the standard NEWSNIGHT four minute and 30-second interview. We stopped 20 minutes later. We'll run it all in two parts, part two tomorrow. Part one now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You're going to start writing a column, a newspaper column. Why do you want to do that?

WALTER CRONKITE: Well, actually, (UNINTELLIGIBLE) for the challenge, really, of doing it. I am fairly busy, because of lecturing and writing for other publications, and so forth. But the discipline of a weekly column sounded like it was interesting. And also, I think maybe I've got something to say. I said to somebody who asked me that question, "I must be mad." And then I kind of dollied that up a bit by saying "not psychologically so much as politically." I've got a few things to say about the way things are going to the world.

BROWN: What are you mad about? What are the political things that get under your skin these days?

CRONKITE: Well, quite honestly, the administration foreign policy is the thing that bothers me the most. Although I also have some quarrels with its domestic policy, particularly in the tax bracket -- tax area. It seems to me that instead of cutting taxes, we ought to be increasing the taxes to pay off the deficit, rather than let that thing build up to the point where our grandchildren's grandchildren are going to be paying for our period of time and our years at the helm, if you please.

So these are the things. The foreign policy, particularly, ever since the president, in his policy statement a year and a half or so ago proclaimed the discipline of preemptive strikes I have been concerned. I think that we have to understand that, of course, if we know that there is a terrorist threat brewing, why, we've got to do something about it. And that's -- it might be called a preemptive strike, but that is against a group and not against a nation most of the time. We've interpreted it as such with Iraq. But meanwhile, it gives every small nation a credo there that has been enunciated by the United States that they've got argument -- a border argument with the next little nation next to them, and that it's all right to go ahead and start a war.

BROWN: Do you ever worry that even at 86 and even long retired from the anchor chair at CBS, that in the public's mind, Walter Cronkite is not entitled to express public opinions?

CRONKITE: Yes, I am concerned about that. And I've already been attacked for that, by Bill O'Reilly, who had the temerity to suggest that I was an internationalist. I never knew that that was to be condemned. I thought we ought to all be internationalists in these days when we are supposed to be the world's greatest power and have all this influence around the world. We'd better be paying attention, it seemed, internationally.

But yes, the more subtle thing with the general public, I think is there, to a degree. And also, what I am concerned about a little bit is this motto that almost goes with my name these days, "the most trusted man in America."

I can argue about that and make a few points about it, which show the ridiculous nature of that.

BROWN: But there are worse things people could say about you.

CRONKITE: It is a reputation, I don't want to lose that by taking sides, but I still should do so.

BROWN: In that respect, is it sometimes a burden to be Walter Cronkite?

CRONKITE: Not too much of one, not too much of one, Aaron. I enjoy the notoriety, if that's what it is. The only place where it has bothered me, really, was when my children were small and trying to go to the park with them, and that sort of thing, and having people come up and ask for autographs, take your picture, this sort of thing you get all the time, we all get. That's an interruption, and it plants with the kids the idea that you're something different than the other fathers. And I didn't like that.

BROWN: David Brinkley died last week. And so as we sit here, you're the last of that generation, who, in many respects, invented this business. Is it a better journalistic business today? Television? You won't hurt my feelings -- maybe -- than it was 30 years ago?

CRONKITE: Is it better today?

BROWN: Is it better today?

CRONKITE: It is technically considerably better, of course.

BROWN: There's a left-handed compliment.

CRONKITE: Satellites and all that sort of thing, sure. Cellular phones, all those.

BROWN: Journalistically better?

CRONKITE: Journalistically, which is what I knew you were asking when I thought I'd dodge the question -- journalistically, I don't think it's better, no. I -- since -- believe it's not quite as good. We had, you see, we had it really our own way, David and Chet and I and whoever was at ABC, they kind of came in later, as you know. Their work was not formed until they broke up NBC. And they came along a little later.

But we -- but still, as they came along, we -- the three of us shared 98 percent of the audience. Ninety-eight percent of the television sets in the United States were tuned to one of the three of us. So we basically shared a third of the nation, was tuned to one or the other of us, at all times. And having it alone like that, we didn't come under the same 33 percent of the audience, big ratings, we didn't come under the same kind of pressure that I think the networks are under today with all of the competition of the cable networks. Your news program certainly attracts a large number of people who might otherwise have watched the 6:30 news or watched one of the special shows. This is the sort of thing that causes them to say, you've got to make the program more interesting. That word "interesting" is being used instead of the word that would get the hackles up of every newsperson, and that's got to be more entertaining.

And as such, we see an awful lot of feature material thrown into that minimum 19 minutes is all they've got on that half-hour broadcast, after the subtraction of the commercials and other stuff. And I don't think that your pocketbook and mine, your health and mine, I don't think that stuff belongs in the evening news.

We're a very complicated nation, for heaven's sakes. We're living in a very complicated world in which we are presumed today to be the leaders, leaders of the democratic nations, at any rate. We don't have time for that. The half hour isn't time enough. The 19 minutes isn't time enough, if we filled all of those minutes with solid news.

BROWN: Do you think that the network newscasts, the 30-minute network newscasts at dinnertime is in some respects an anachronism?

CRONKITE: I would hate to think it's an anachronism. I'd like to think that the networks would say to themselves, "let's do a little different job in order to compete with all of this proliferation of cable." I think one thing they ought to do is try to convince the affiliate stations who are the blocks who are taking more time, convince them they've got to have an hour evening news program. I think I'd like to see them use their magazine programs, which they now have prime-time, which we begged for in our days, we wanted to be on at 10:30 when people were home and all that kind of thing. We never could get into prime-time. Now they've all got a magazine program during the week. Why couldn't they take that time to do the serious backgrounding of the headlines that they have given in their half-hour newscast and really elevate our understanding of this complicated world we live in, instead of giving us crime and sex and Hollywood, that kind of thing?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Walter Cronkite. Tomorrow in our conversation with Mr. Cronkite, we'll get his take on the coverage of the war in Iraq. We talked about the Kennedy assassination and his coverage of that. And we'll play that for you tomorrow.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, "Segment 7," and the family's grief over losing a son after the fighting was supposedly over. Break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There's something cold about this reality. The young men who die in Iraq these days, and 51 have died since the war ended, get less attention than those who died during the first phase of the war. The deaths are no less important, the pain their families feel no less great. It's just that perhaps both we and the country have moved on in one way or another. So tonight, one soldier's story, one life cut short, one family grieving. There are 50 others just like it. Here's NEWSNIGHT's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To the family of Private First Class Branden Overlightner (ph), they're now priceless treasures, the snapshots of Branden as a boy, of Branden in Iraq.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There he is in Mosul right here.

NISSEN: Friends in his home town of Worthington, Ohio said Branden had talked for years about joining the military.

PFC ANDREW ATWOOD, CHILDHOOD FRIEND: He always wanted more out of life than just staying around here and doing the daily grind.

NISSEN: Branden enlisted in the Army in the 101st Airborne.

KEITH LUCE, FAMILY FRIEND: He wanted to be at the tip of the spear. He wanted to be on the front.

NISSEN: Branden's unit, Company B, 2nd Battalion, 502 (ph) Infantry Regiment was deployed to Iraq. His worried parents did their best to track the unit as it advanced toward Baghdad.

FREEMAN CARMACK, BRANDEN'S STEPFATHER; There were nights where it was just very hard to sleep because of the anxiety. And we'd get up in the middle of the night and just turn the TV on.

NISSEN: The news was far from reassuring. Branden's unit saw frequent action in Najaf, Karbala, Mosul.

STAFF SGT. HANK HAMBLIN, 101ST AIRBORNE: A lot of explosions, a lot of bullets flying around, a lot of -- just like you see in the movies, I mean, just a little bit closer.

NISSEN: After U.S. troops took Baghdad, Branden's friends and families dared to hope that he'd soon be coming home.

CARMACK: The last letter that we received, there was some mention of maybe within possibly within 90 days, that he'd be rotated out.

NISSEN: But shortly after midnight on June 5, Branden's unit pulled up to a checkpoint in Fallujah, 30 miles west of Baghdad, and was hit by a rocket-propelled grenade.

HAMBLIN: After that we started taking small arms from the left side. Six others were injured. Medevac was attempted for the other injured soldiers. Overlightner (ph) was dead immediately.

NISSEN: Branden's grief-stunned family, a battalion of friends and a good number of strangers, came to his funeral Tuesday, one day before what would have been Branden's 21st birthday. Somehow they made it through the age-old rituals of honor for the war dead.

Those who knew and loved Branden Overlightner (ph) clung to the assurance that the nation was grateful, clung to the hope that people still noted, still cared about the distant country where he fought and died.

LUCE: These young soldiers are in as much as danger now as they were when they had the entire force moving north. The young Marines are out there every day on patrols. Air Force crews are flying combat missions. The Army troopers are in the cities, door to door. But Brandens in this world are still carrying on a mission.

NISSEN: A mission not over until every last soldier comes home.

Beth Nissen, CNN, Worthington, Ohio.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll check morning papers after a break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: That whole naked man scare shark to death story, I don't get that at all. Time to check morning papers from across the country and across the country, let's start with "The New York Times." Lots of good things in "The Times," but I suspect this one will get a fair amount of attention. It should. Up in the corner here "White House Cuts Data on Warming," global warming. "In EPA reports, some at agency protest the White House," according to the story, "Demanded changes, deleting lots of references to global warming and studies on its cause." I'm sure that will play out tomorrow.

Also, down at the bottom here in "The Times "Y Chromosome Depends on Itself to Survive," big breakthrough in understanding the Y chromosome, the male chromosome.

"USA Today" also, if I can get my hands on it, also has that story. "A Study Makes Sense of Y Chromosome." "Scientists have decoded the male Y chromosome, solving the mystery about how the chromosome works and why men exists." It turns out they exist to watch sports on television. I didn't know that, but the study now confirms it.

"The San Francisco Chronicle," pretty good story on the front page of "The Chronicle" tomorrow. "Witness: Cops Coached Me to Lie in Murder Case." Chief Sanders, he was the guy that had some problems a few months back, and partner Hendrix (ph) are implicated. So we'll watch how that plays out. The DNA story on the front page in San Francisco.

Oh, my goodness, we're running out of time already. "The Detroit Free Press," Benton Harbor at the top. Of course, there has to be a car story, an auto story. Down at the bottom, "Report Confirms GM Chrysler Are More Efficient," more efficient than what I do not know.

"The Detroit News," "17 Detroit Cops Face Charges." Man, the police department there has lots of problems. Their auto story, "At 50, Corvette's Speed Curves Still Fuel Passion." There we go.

And the weather tomorrow in Chicago, by the way, is oh-la-la.

We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern. Good night from all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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