Return to Transcripts main page
CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Parts of Nuclear Weapons Program Found in Iraq
Aired June 25, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
On the one hand our lead story tonight should be totally unsurprising, the discovery of a small number of components useful in the development of nuclear weapons in Iraq is hardly a shocker but context counts and this story requires a fair amount of context on all sides of the arguments it is bound to create. So, we'll take a pretty slow walk through the discovery tonight, avoiding big leaps to unsustainable conclusions.
David Ensor leads off our coverage and leads off the whip too, David a headline on this one.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, those elements that you spoke of got there from a senior Iraqi scientist who dug them up in his backyard. Experts and CIA officials are telling me they are the critical parts if Iraq was ever to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program.
BROWN: OK, David we'll get back to you at the top tonight.
Then, Mike Boettcher who spoke to the senior Iraqi scientist who led the United States to that backyard, so Mike your headline.
MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, we're at an undisclosed location because this is the secret place where that scientist was being interviewed. We talked to him at length about why he chose to dig up his rosebush. Underneath that were all the documents and those components -- Aaron.
BROWN: Mike, thank you.
On to Florida now and the fate of a young, pregnant, disabled woman forced into a debate over abortion. Susan Candiotti has been covering this story and she's with us tonight, Susan a headline.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron, and what forced her into the debate this woman was raped while living in a home where she was supposed to be protected by the state of Florida. Tonight, a judge has ruled that this woman should give birth. She is severely retarded. There's been a lot of controversy surrounding this case. We'll tell you more about it.
BROWN: Susan, thank you.
And, you might want to wake your kids for this one, a new crackdown by the recording industry to stop file sharing on the web. This one may hit some people very close to home literally. Jen Rogers on that from L.A. tonight, Jen a headline.
JEN ROGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there Aaron. That is indeed the case. Today, the recording industry launching its latest offensive in its war against online song swapping. Who are they going after this time? Well, it's not big business. It's not ISPs. It's real people.
BROWN: Jen, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, Ben Wedeman from Iraq from that town where six British troops lost their lives yesterday. The struggle to find out what happened there.
A story from Kelli Arena tonight on how paintball has become a factor in a federal terrorism investigation, yes, paintball.
And, hope for a cease-fire deal among Palestinian terrorists is still just that, hope. We'll hear from the Palestinian legal adviser, Diana Buttu tonight, all of that to come and more in a full hour ahead.
We begin with the nuclear components in the rose garden in the backyard in Baghdad. It is important with a story like this to understand both what it is, and it is something, and what it is not. It is not the smoking gun, a deal clincher that the Iraqis had an active nuclear program in the days before the war.
We have two reports tonight. We begin first with CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR (voice-over): CNN has learned that the Central Intelligence Agency has in its hands the critical parts of a key piece of Iraqi nuclear technology, parts needed to develop a bomb program that were hidden in a backyard in Baghdad.
The parts were dug up by this man, Iraqi scientist Mahdi Obeidi who had hidden them under a rose bush 12 years ago under orders from Qusay Hussein and Saddam Hussein's then son-in-law Hussein Kamel.
They are the key parts and documents for reconstructing a sophisticated gas centrifuge system for enriching uranium for bombs, shown exclusively to CNN at CIA headquarters in Virginia.
Former U.N. arms inspector David Kay, now in charge of the CIA effort started work earlier this week in Baghdad. We spoke to him about the case over a secure teleconferencing line from CIA headquarters.
DAVID KAY: It begins to tell us how huge our job is. Remember his material was buried in a barrel behind his house in a rose garden. There's no way that that would have been discovered by normal international inspections. I couldn't have done it. My successors couldn't have done it.
ENSOR: The gas centrifuge equipment dates back to Iraq's pre- 1991 efforts to build nuclear weapons. Experts say the documents and pieces Obeidi gave the U.S. were the critical information and parts to restart a nuclear weapons program and would have saved Saddam's regime several years and as much as hundreds of millions of dollars for research.
(on camera): What did you think about seeing all this stuff on a table in the CIA?
KAY: It was a realization I hadn't gotten all the parts. I certainly hadn't gotten all the documentation, so there was a pang of regret but there was also almost an exhilaration that now maybe we have a chance to take this to the very bottom.
ENSOR: U.S. officials emphasize this is not a smoking gun. This is not evidence Iraq had a nuclear weapon but it is evidence the Iraqis concealed plans to reconstitute their nuclear program as soon as the world was no longer looking.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Now, CNN had this story last week but made a decision to withhold it from broadcast after a request from the U.S. government citing safety and national security concerns. The U.S. government has now told us that the security and safety issues have been dealt with and there's no risk now in telling the story -- Aaron.
BROWN: There have been a number in the course, even during the war and since of discoveries that prove to be less than they first seemed. Could these items be anything other than what the government claims them to be?
ENSOR: Not in the view of a number of experts that I've spoken to. We've run the pictures of these items by outside experts as well as the CIA expert on this matter and others.
So, in their view there's no question this is gas centrifuge technology and very sophisticated stuff at that. Mind you there's no evidence that this was reconstituted after 1991. It was being hidden. That was illegal. It was lied about and the government in Iraq was presumably holding it with plans to try again one day.
BROWN: And, do we have any sense of how long, assuming they did in fact try again one day, something that won't happen, how long it would have taken them to develop a weapon?
ENSOR: A rough estimate from one nuclear expert at the CIA three and a half years.
BROWN: Got it, David thank you very much, David Ensor tonight.
Whatever their differences, the Bush administration and most experts in the field do agree on this one thing. Until Iraqis start talking progress in the search for weapons will be hard to come by. This is how it played out after the first Gulf War when Hussein Kamel defected to Jordan, crates of incriminating documents in his possession. His father-in-law, Saddam Hussein, lured him back across the border and then had him murdered. With Saddam's fate still a question mark, it isn't hard to understand why an Iraqi scientist might be reluctant to talk today.
CNN's Mike Boettcher did speak with the scientist who did the talking in this case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MAHDI OBEIDI, IRAQI NUCLEAR SCIENTIST: That I had...
BOETTCHER (voice-over): This is why Mahdi Obeidi, the Iraqi nuclear scientist says he came forward.
OBEIDI: A complete system that can reconstitute a nuclear program would be something that if it could fall in the hands of dictators or terrorists or any other group it might really play havoc in the destiny of humanity and therefore I felt it is an obligation, an urge that I should take these things which involved designs, documents, and the critical centrifuge materials to take it into safe hands.
BOETTCHER: We can't tell you where we interviewed Obeidi, only that he and his family are now safely out of Iraq. He says he's turned over parts and plans required to make a gas centrifuge, a key tool for enriching uranium to make nuclear bomb materials. But, he says, he wasn't the only scientist ordered to hide this kind of equipment.
OBEIDI: I fear there may be more than the three other copies and I think it's quite important to look for these so that they would not fall in the hands of the wrong people.
BOETTCHER: He says if the Iraqi government had retrieved the documents and parts it would have shortened the time needed for Iraq to make a nuclear weapon by three years.
OBEIDI: There was that intention and there was that concealment mechanism and it was awaiting the right time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BOETTCHER: However, mysteriously Obeidi says even after U.N. inspectors left Iraq in 1998, he never got the order from Saddam Hussein or any of his lieutenants to dig up that rose garden. Still, he is certain that if Saddam Hussein would have stayed in power he would have gotten that order someday -- Aaron.
BROWN: Just to be clear on that last point, what he is saying is after the inspectors left that the regime did not, to his knowledge at least, reactivate their nuclear program, correct?
BOETTCHER: No, they did not. In fact, he's saying that they left it alone from the point he buried it in 1991 up until now, although he told me in the interview that he had received additional information that there may have been a parallel program in 2002, a conceptual program to think about putting this back together but he is certain that he would have been called to be part of that team because he led the program that actually developed it back 12 years ago.
BROWN: Does he have any information on any other sorts of weapons of mass destruction?
BOETTCHER: He says he does not. I asked him about chemical weapons, biological weapons. Later on he worked for a state agency that dealt in construction of certain plants, even some chemical plants.
He says he was not involved in that. He does say there were three other kits like the one he received, the gas centrifuge kits that allowed them to put back these gas centrifuges in a shorter period of time.
He went to pick his up in 1991, Aaron, and he says when he went there, there were three others. He doesn't know where they went but he has an idea who the scientists might be and he's told the U.S. about it and they're supposed to question those scientists.
BROWN: Mike, thank you, Mike Boettcher tonight.
Having spent a fair amount of time on this, a little bit more here in trying to put it in context. It obviously has enormous political and geopolitical dimensions to the story, so we'll turn to CNN Analyst Ken Pollack who is with us in Washington tonight.
Ken, what do you make of it?
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, this is potentially very significant, Aaron, and first you're sounding the right note I think in being cautious about this. We have seen in the past claims about weapons of mass destruction turn out to be not accurate. In other cases, we've seen claims about weapons of mass destruction turn out to be just unproven. The jury is out on them.
This one seems pretty good and it does seem to be proof that the Iraqis, at the very least, were cheating. They weren't abiding by the U.N. resolutions. They did have ill intent. They were intending to keep the weapons of mass destruction program and, particularly, a nuclear bomb making program.
But, as you've also pointed out, the key issue here, and this is going to be still a problem for the Bush administration that this signals Iraq's intent down the road. It doesn't indicate an imminent threat to the United States.
BROWN: Now, you supported the concept of the war. The administration in arguing for the war did portray the threat from Iraq as an imminent one. On this subject, on the nuclear weapons and generally have we seen anything that says that Iraq was an imminent threat? POLLACK: Well, since you raised my own participation, I'll say I never believed that Iraq was an imminent threat. In fact, I argued the opposite that Iraq was a longer term threat. And no, I don't think that so far we've uncovered anything that would indicate that Iraq was an imminent threat.
I think the stuff that is being uncovered, the gas centrifuges, if those biological warfare laboratories, the claimed biological warfare laboratories are proven to be biological warfare laboratories that too will demonstrate a potential threat, a longer term threat, the fact that the Iraqis were trying to keep hold of a production capability that would allow them at some point in the future to reconstitute the actual weapons but not the weapons themselves.
BROWN: I wonder if beyond the parts themselves the significance here then is something slightly different which is that an important Iraqi scientist is talking and that may, may lead others to do the same.
POLLACK: Yes, that is also certainly an important element of this story, Aaron. As David Kay pointed out in the clip that you showed of him, there is no way that any inspector was going to come across this.
The United States, even with a broad international coalition, is not going to be able to dig up every backyard in Iraq. It is going to require Iraqis coming forward and saying I know where stuff is. If the stuff is going to be found to the extent that it is there in Iraq, and we just don't know how big the programs were or how many people did have similar things like this in their backyard, it's going to require people to come forward.
And, hopefully, if this scientist having come forward lives to see many days in the future, other Iraqi scientists will say, you know what, Saddam really can't threaten us anymore and, therefore, we can come forward.
BROWN: We haven't had a chance to talk in actually quite a while, lot's gone on. Let me ask you something on a different -- in a different area. Do you think it's -- looking at what sort of played out over the last six weeks, this kind of slow but steady drumbeat of attacks on Americans, the attacks on the British forces yesterday, are we looking at the tip, if you will, of a guerrilla war?
POLLACK: We could well be. That's -- I think you're getting exactly the right issue, Aaron, which is that there are problems in Iraq, problems related to the simple fact that we have brought down a totalitarian regime, but problems also because the United States did not have in place ready to go a successor, a new system, a new set of guidelines for what would come after that.
We've opened up a power vacuum. I think that what we're seeing these guerrilla attacks in many ways are really the symptoms of the broader problem though. The broader problem we have is there are a lot of Iraqis right now who are very happy to be rid of Saddam Hussein and grateful to the United States for doing so but very angry at the United States for not being able to turn on their water, not being able to turn on their power, for in many cases creating problems greater than even they were experiencing before the war occurred as a result of the flight of all of the civil servants.
If we can't solve that problem, this guerrilla war is going to get worse and I'd also suggest that actually this guerrilla war may actually be the least of the problems that we face.
On the other hand, if we can start to solve those problems, and I will say that after some real mis-starts I think (unintelligible) Bremer has come in and done a pretty good job so far with some real exceptions but by and large a pretty good job. If he can start to turn things around, I think that you will start to see the guerrilla problem also abate.
BROWN: We should talk more about that. We will. You come back hopefully soon and we'll get into that or perhaps if we're really lucky the problems will just go away. Ken, it's good to have you on the program again. Thank you.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight on a Wednesday night, is playing paintball a suspicious activity? It might be under some circumstances. Kelli Arena has that coming up.
And, a Florida judge rules there will be no abortion for a mentally incompetent rape victim. Susan Candiotti with us tonight as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As soon as next week, a group of men could be facing terrorism charges in part because they're fond of playing paintball. The government says it has a lot more to go on than just that but when rose gardens come with nuclear components and student pilots hijack airliners, investigators aren't finding it so hard to look at a paintball pistol and see a smoking gun.
Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. born Hammad Abdur-Raheem says he's been interviewed by the FBI at least four times. Government sources tell CNN that he is one of about a dozen Washington area Muslims whose homes have been searched and are under investigation for suspected links to terrorism.
HAMMAD ABDUR-RAHEEM:I know I haven't done anything. I know my friends haven't done anything.
ARENA: Abdur-Raheem and others under investigation all studied here at the Center for Islamic Information and Education in Falls Church, Virginia under a well known scholar named Ali al-Timimi who investigators believe may be a terrorist recruiter. Rita Katz is a government consultant on terrorism issues. RITA KATZ, AUTHOR "TERRORIST HUNTER": One option is whether or not he had played a role in recruiting them, indoctrinating them, especially by sending them abroad and other options that they are looking into is whether or not he had just played the role of justification, giving them the justification for a terrorist attack.
ARENA: After September 11, Abdur-Raheem says al-Timimi told the men to leave the United States to avoid backlash against Muslims. Several did and traveled to places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Investigators have been looking into whether they went to train at terror camps, a charge Abdur-Raheem denies.
ABDUR-RAHEEM: These guys are working, taking care of their families, going to school, learning Arabic, learning Islam.
ARENA: CNN tried repeatedly to reach al-Timimi. In a statement his lawyers say that he "fervently denies any formal or informal charges by the FBI or the Department of Justice that he has in the past supported or currently is supporting terrorism and terrorist activity."
Government sources say they are particularly interested in the relationship some of the men have to a Pakistani-based group which is fighting Indian forces over Kashmir. The organization has since been designated a terror group by the U.S.
At least nine searches of homes and cars in the last six months turned up a variety of items, including a printout of FBI headquarters, some weapons, and what investigators called extremist literature.
Investigators also found paintball equipment. The men who studied under al-Timimi used to participate in games. Sources suggest it may have been jihad training in disguise.
ABDUR-RAHEEM: We have denied this. Everyone has denied this. There's no proof of this. We're just playing a game, OK.
ARENA (on camera): Sources tell CNN that at least one or more of the men is expected to face charges perhaps as early as next week, but they refuse to elaborate.
(voice-over): Abdur-Raheem says that would actually be a relief at this point.
ABDUR-RAHEEM: We say to them if you have something come with it. If you don't, leave us alone. Stop the harassment.
ARENA: Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The understatement of the day comes from someone involved in the case of a 22-year-old disabled woman in Florida. They talked about her current predicament, a woman with the mind of a toddler, no family, raped while in state care, pregnant, and forced into the spotlight when Florida's Governor Jeb Bush tried to get a guardian appointed for her fetus.
Predicament hardly goes far enough to describe all that. Now, the woman is under a court order to continue a pregnancy that her lawyer has said she's not even aware of but the decision wasn't based on the advice of the governor.
Here's CNN's Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): We know her only by her initials, this mother-to-be, JDS, only 22 years old with no known family. Police say she has the mental capacity of a one-year-old. According to court filings, JDS has Cerebral Palsy and she's autistic.
She didn't become pregnant by choice. She was raped, police say, in a group home overseen by the state of Florida. JDS is now more than six months pregnant. Since she's incapable of making her own decisions, a Florida judge based his decision on whether she should give birth on a recommendation from a guardian he appointed.
According to the guardian's report, two doctors agree JDS is "in good health" adding "two sonograms reveal no obvious or significant fetal abnormalities." Though JDS is autistic, a guardian says: "JDS appears to be responsive, not just sitting in a semiconscious state all the time."
Still undecided an appeal by Governor Jeb Bush who wants a guardian appointed for the fetus. He says the unborn child must be protected. However, a spokesman for the governor says he calls the court ruling for JDS not to abort the baby compassionate and humane.
Last month in Miami, a judge ordered an abortion for another severely disabled raped woman who had been living in a state regulated home. In that case, the young woman's mother approved of the abortion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: And, in this case, there are a lot of unanswered questions still. For example, what will happen to the baby and what will happen to JDS? Of course, according to the guardian, she is very worried about that too and she has warned the court that she hopes the mother will be placed in a better home when all of this is over, one where she is far better protected than she was by the state in a home where police say she was raped -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, two questions. Do they know who the rapist is? That's sort of a yes or no I suppose. And, the other, has the state done anything, is it doing anything to tighten up security in these places where defenseless people are being attacked?
CANDIOTTI: Well, first of all regarding the rape, they hope to find out who the father is once she gives birth because they will analyze DNA from the baby in order to try to determine paternity in this case. And, the governor has ordered a panel of experts now to study this issue of security, far better security that is clearly needed for people such as this woman, JDS, living in group homes.
BROWN: Well, we'll wait for the report. Thank you, Susan, Candiotti in Florida tonight.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT a cease-fire in the Middle East, is there one or not? Lots of talk, actions say something different. We'll talk to a Palestinian Authority representative, their legal adviser when we continue from New York. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the Middle East tonight, it appears a cease-fire is close but not quite there. Negotiators for the Palestinian Authority say they've got Hamas and Islamic Jihad and other radical groups to agree to stop attacks on Israeli civilians for three months, but a Hamas spokesman said no formal agreement has been reached. An Israeli government spokesman says an agreement is immaterial, only deeds count. And, President Bush today called for the dismantling of Hamas entirely.
So, a lot of voices talking in a lot of directions tonight. In the meantime, Israel launched another attack on Hamas. The target of the assassination survived. Two bystanders did not. A dozen other people were wounded. With that as a backdrop, we spoke earlier today with Diana Buttu, who is the legal adviser to the PLO.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Since I'm a little bit confused at this point, is there a cease-fire deal or isn't there?
DIANA BUTTU, LEGAL ADVISER TO THE PLO: No, there is not yet an agreement with Hamas and with Islamic Jihad to end attacks on Israelis. The Palestinian Authority has been in discussions with these groups and the discussions have ended. We're simply waiting to hear from these organizations whether they've agreed to the conditions set forth by us.
BROWN: Do you know what is holding this up at this point because it seems in some respects a fairly straightforward decision they have to make?
BUTTU: Well, what's holding it up is issues such as today's assassination attempt. Israel has repeatedly assassinated individuals who are members of Hamas, and not just assassinated Hamas individuals, but also taking the lives of innocent bystanders. For example, today, two people alone were killed, and another 16 injured in yet another assassination attempt.
And what these groups are saying to us is that cease-fires can't be simply one way. They have to be two ways. And Israel's also obligated under the road map to stop its attacks against Palestinian civilians. It can't simply be a one-way street. And so while we are doing our best to try to obtain an agreement from these groups, Israel is taking every single step to try to undermine that, including assassination attempts, including home demolition, three houses were demolished just today, and including arresting Palestinians without charge, 130 Palestinians were arrested yesterday without charge and without reason.
So Israel is taking every single measure to simply undermine the road map and to undermine our efforts to get an agreement with Hamas and with Islamic Jihad.
BROWN: Just without arguing that point, is it -- would it not be true that a cease-fire agreement, if there were to be one, and if it were to hold, would, in fact, put pressure on Israel, significant international pressure on Israel, to stop the very things that you're talking about?
BUTTU: Well, it may, but the question is, are -- is Israel going to abide by it? And we've seen, just over the course of the past week, that after a very strong rebuke by the president and by the secretary of state, Israel yet again attempted to assassinate more Palestinians, and in the process, again, killed innocent civilians.
And so I'm quite critical and skeptical that the United States and the international community will put any pressure on Israel. Israel for the past 36 years has had absolutely no pressure on it, and I'm skeptical that the United States is going to do the things that it's supposed to do. I hope that they will, but, again, it's a question of looking at the past and to see exactly what Israel has done in the past.
And in the past, in the face of international criticism, Israel continues not only to build more and more settlements, to take more and more Palestinian land, but has at this point killed 2,300 Palestinian civilians.
BROWN: Well, and since we are talking now about numbers, more than 500 Israeli civilians have died as well. We've gone at this for 1,000 days now, this intifada. Has it accomplished a single constructive thing?
BUTTU: Well, this isn't a question of accomplishing or not accomplishing anything. This is a question of people who, for 36 years, have been living under, you know, the equivalent of the -- today's equivalent of slavery.
This is about people actually resisting that occupation and deciding that they don't want to live under Israel's rule any longer.
Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, has called for an end for the armed intifada, but he certainly hasn't called for an end to the uprising itself. And the reason for that is very clear. Palestinians do have a right to resist Israeli occupation. Every people who is denied their freedom is the -- has the right to resist that and try to get their freedom. The armed elements, in the opinion of Mahmoud Abbas, have certainly not done a whole lot, but at the same time, the question is, is the killing of 2,300 Palestinian civilians done anything for Israel either?
I think that what we should be looking at is how is it that we move forward? And how is it that we actually end this 36-year military occupation?
The only way that I believe it will end is if the international community begins to put pressure on Israel, to teach Israel that it's not above the law and that the Palestinians are not beneath the law any longer.
BROWN: Well, we'll see if today is the beginning of something or if we're closer to something. It's good to talk to you again. Thank you very much.
BUTTU: Thank you.
BROWN: Diana Buttu. We talked to her earlier today.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, unrest in Iraq. What happened when six British soldiers were killed? And the fallout in London from that, and more.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS: I'm Susan Lisovicz with this MONEYLINE update. A smaller-than-expected interest rate cut fueled a broad-based sell-off. The Dow fell 98 points, the Nasdaq lost 3, the S&P 500 fell 8. The Federal Reserve cut short-term rates by a quarter of a percent.
Watch "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" weeknights at 6:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.
Now, back to NEWSNIGHT with Aaron Brown.
BROWN: Next on NEWSNIGHT, more of what went wrong when six British soldiers were killed yesterday in Iraq. That story and more. We continue after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, the way things are going, one day soon banks may start paying you to finance a home or borrow money instead of the other way around. We're not there yet, but we seem to be getting closer with every Federal Reserve meeting.
Today, as Susan Lisovicz just reported, the Fed cut interest rates, this time by a quarter a percent, leaving interest rates as low as they have been since "Ozzie and Harriet," and fueling a land rush of refinancing already under way.
Here's CNN's John Zarrella.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the loan amount.
DAWN WARREN, HOME OWNER: OK.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dawn Warren couldn't be happier. Warren, single and the manager of a thrift store, closed on a new mortgage that she says will save her $300 a month.
WARREN: Makes life more comfortable, but that extra money can now go towards doing some more fixing up in the house.
ZARRELLA: Warren refinanced at 5 1/8 percent for 25 years. Her original mortgage on the home she bought two years ago was a 30-year loan at 7 percent. It's estimated Americans will this year alone refinance $2 trillion in loans.
Brokers at Nationwide Mortgage say that's no surprise to them.
EDUARDO SAMA, VICE PRESIDENT, NATIONWIDE MORTGAGE: We've had more applications in the last two months than I think we've ever had before.
ZARRELLA: And they warn you may be making a mistake that will cost you thousands if you are waiting for rates to fall further.
SAMA: A lot of folks are still paying 8, 9 percent. Anyone who's paying that interest rate, or even in the 7s, really needs to refinance now, because this is not going to last.
ZARRELLA: Miami attorney Harold Garber says a year ago, he thought rates were bottomed out. Now, who knows in which direction they will head? Garber, who handles real estate transactions, says consolidating debt is another very good reason to consider refinancing.
HAROLD GARBER, ATTORNEY: In some instances, and this isn't all, but in some instances, they find that they're make the same payments every month that they had been making before, but with this lower interest rate, they've already paid off their credit cards.
ZARRELLA: Garber and other financial experts say if you fit the refinancing profile, do what Dawn Warren did, take advantage now. Rolling the dice that rates will fall even further isn't, the experts, say, a gamble worth taking.
John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Well, all of that must seem pretty trivial to the participants in this next story, two small towns thousands of miles apart, connected by one bloody incident that residents in both places will remember for a lifetime. The town of Gloucester in England, home base of six British troops who were killed yesterday in Iraq.
As one politician there put it today, "This is the darkest day Gloucester has experienced in almost 60 years."
And then is the Iraqi town, where people are mourning some of their own who died yesterday as well. British forces struggling to piece together what happened, as is CNN's Ben Wedeman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Blood marks the spot where their dead or wounded bodies were dragged through the police station in the southern Iraqi town of al-Majar al-Kabir. British military police killed in the bloodiest day for coalition forces since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
The incident appears to have been sparked by local concern that British forces were about to conduct house-to-house searches for heavy weapon. House searches a highly sensitive issue in this conservative Shi'ite Muslim town.
"When it began, when there were children and soldiers, some people exploited the situation by opening fire on the British forces," says Dr. Adel Ashawi (ph), head of the local hospital.
The British troops retreated to the police station and were quickly surrounded by angry townspeople, many of them armed.
"There were no more than 15 or 20 armed men. They had old AK-47 rifles," says Ahmed Yunis (ph), a member of the local security committee.
The front of the police station is peppered with bullet holes. Several rocket-propelled grenades also hit the building. Bits of one grenade still lodged in the wall.
On the roof of the school across the street, spent rounds litter what a former soldier describes as ideal firing positions.
It is not clear exactly where or how the six British soldiers were killed. The British are treating it as an isolated incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was not a carefully planned, well- coordinated attack.
WEDEMAN: British forces are now on an elevated state of alert.
Up the street from the police station, friends and relatives mourn the death of 25-year-old shop owner Abbas Jasam (ph), one of at least four Iraqis killed in the fight. Here, bitterness and anger.
(on camera): The precise details of what happened here are not clear, but what is clear is that in Iraq, even in areas normally considered calm and friendly to coalition forces, things can very suddenly and very violently spin out of control.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, al-Majar al-Kabir, in southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a crackdown on downloaders. Recording industry says it will start going after people who are illegally downloading music. The truth and the consequences in a moment.
Around the world. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Kudos to senator and love-song writer Orrin Hatch tonight. The man who recorded an album called "Whispers of My Heart" has, well, a provocative idea for stopping the millions who swap music illegally on the Web, and that includes maybe your innocent-looking teenaged child.
Last week, before backing away from it, he suggested that somehow destroying the computer of a repeat offender from afar, that would do it.
The music business is now stepping up the fight against file- sharing, but it's not using some sort of PC death ray. It is using old-fashioned legal weapons, taking the fight directly to the folks doing the swapping.
Here's CNN's Jen Rogers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEN ROGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ken Mackiewicz may not look like he is stealing, but the recording industry considers him a thief, one of an estimated 50 million Americans swapping songs online who could find themselves in court.
CARY SHERMAN, PRESIDENT, RIAA: We're really serious. We've come to the conclusion that the only way that you deter illegal behavior is by taking actions that make it clear that there can be consequences. People don't shoplift because they are afraid of getting caught.
ROGERS: The recording industry has been fighting this battle against businesses, like Napster, who made it easy to listen to music for free. But now, in its most aggressive move yet, it's turning up heat on individuals, taking names and preparing lawsuits, claiming copyright infringement.
The RIAA says over 2 billion songs are illegally downloaded every month.
KEN MACKIEWICZ, ONLINE MUSIC SWAPPER: I don't consider myself a thief, because using what is freely available to anyone who is online.
ROGERS: Beginning tomorrow, the RIAA says it will search public networks for the biggest offenders. The first charges could be filed as early as August, and fines could be to the tune of $150,000 per violation.
FRED VON LOHMANN, ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION: I think it's crazy to think that this tactic is going to be the new business model for the recording industry, right? I mean, no matter how many lawsuits are brought, I doubt seriously that they are going to put a single penny into the pockets of artists.
ROGERS: For his part, Mackiewicz says, he is not intimidated by the threat of the lawsuit.
MACKIEWICZ: There's a million people out there doing it. You know, my collection, I think, isn't as big as some of the other people's. So, yes, I am not really worried.
ROGERS: The recording industry hopes his attitude will be the exception to the rule.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROGERS: So does this mean that every parent out there with one of those innocent-looking teenagers downloading and sharing Britney and Pink songs should be worried? Well, at this point, the recording industry says they are going after people that share a substantial amount of music.
They also said, though, you run the risk of being sued regardless of your age, Aaron.
BROWN: Jen, thank you. Jen Rogers in L.A. tonight.
We'll admit to needing a little guidance in terms of high-tech and the law here. We often turn to Alex Wellen when we do. He used to co-host a program "Cybercrime" on Tech TV. In a former life, he practiced intellectual property law, which makes him, perhaps, the perfect person to talk about all of this.
Good to see you again.
How do they go about finding who is a substantial violator?
ALEX WELLEN, HIGH-TECH LEGAL ANALYST: We've had a new step in the cases that's going to make it a lot easier. And the decision in the Verizon case demonstrates that the recording industry can go to Verizon, and Verizon, under a law called the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, has a responsibility to give over information about the user.
So the recording industry is out there. They see that somebody's using a name. And then they go, and they can easily find out who that Internet service provider is. And then in turn, they go to Verizon or Earthlink or whoever has that information, and under this new law, they have to give all that information that you would need for a lawsuit to the recording industry.
BROWN: They don't need any sort of warrant, any permission from the court? They don't have to tell you they are looking at your records? They can just go do it?
WELLEN: That's right, Aaron. Where is all the due process? That is really the problem. In the past, what would happen is, someone like the recording industry would go to a Verizon, and Verizon would talk to the person and say, you know, The recording industry wants that kind of information. And as a result, you would be, like, a John Doe or a Jane Doe.
But under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the way it works is, because Internet service providers are given some sort of protection, so you can't sue them for copyright infringement or contributory copyright infringement, as a result, the tradeoff, the quid pro quo, is that they have to roll over and give over that information with no search warrants, with nothing more than a conversation and a good-faith belief that, in fact, you are stealing that music.
BROWN: Yes, I had this conversation with a 14-year-old I know quite well, that this is -- that this is...
WELLEN: Part of your family.
BROWN: ... a 14-year-old I know quite well, that this is, in fact, stealing, and that we ought not be thieves around the house or anywhere else. Is there, in fact, any practical defense available to people who are caught in this deal?
WELLEN: Mostly, no.
BROWN: Yes.
WELLEN: It -- the law is very clear. Case after case has said that you are a direct infringer if you are exchanging music back and forth and you're not paying for it.
I will give you this, though, and many people have held onto this law very tightly. And that is, the Audio Home Recording Act, which you may remember, making tapes up for friends or maybe somebody gave you a tape, a girlfriend, or you gave a girlfriend a tape, and you had music and put your favorite songs on there. This exchange, this personal use, is acceptable. It's looked as de minimus, right? It's not looked at -- they'll look the other way.
But when you get the large-scale copyright infringement, when you put hundred of songs on the Internet, and it's available for anyone to download, and I don't know if that 14-year-old that you know personally does that, then you have a problem. Then you have no case. You are a copyright infringer.
BROWN: And the penalties are enormous, if they, I mean, theoretically enormous, I suppose, if you find a court that's willing to hear the case, or, given that there isn't much of a defense, you just roll over and write a check.
WELLEN: Yes. You know, it's a lot of scare tactics. The real issue right now is, and I was listening to the package that you played before this, will it work? Nothing has worked at this point. Will it really be a general deterrent to other people? And when does it become a general deterrent? It depends on how much money.
Yes, you could get $150,000 per infringement. That's unheard of. It never happens. The cases that we've seen have been $5,000, $10,000, just to send a message.
So, yes, you know, I will tell you something else that will really scare people when it will happen. It will happen, is when they use the NET elect -- the No Electronic Theft Act, which lets you go after people for criminal, for criminal copyright infringement. That will scare a lot of people.
But yes, the ups, it could be a lot of money. It probably won't be.
BROWN: Alex, good to see you again. Thank you very much.
WELLEN: Nice to see you too. Thanks.
BROWN: Thank you.
Morning papers coming up next on NEWSNIGHT. We'll look at tomorrow's news tonight, because we can.
Break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Boy, we spare no expense. By the way, do we pay extra for the rooster, or will it just -- it just works for free?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Free.
BROWN: Thank you.
OK, time to check morning papers from around country and around the world, or, in this case, I think, just around the country.
We'll begin with "The New York Times." People will be talking about this. In fact, we'll probably be talking about this tomorrow, I would expect. "Very Richest Share of Wealth Grew Even Bigger, Data Show." You know, "The Times," which is a great newspaper, does not write necessarily the neatest headlines I have ever seen.
The 400 wealthiest taxpayers accounted for more than 1 percent of all income in the United States. Think about that. Anyway, pretty cool story on the front page of "The Times."
There's something else I liked there, but I don't remember it now. That happens in this segment.
Kind of interesting on how all the newspapers play the rate cut, the Fed rate cut. "The Detroit Free Press," "It's Now or Never to Revive the Economy." That's their take on it. Go over to "The Detroit News," the other paper in Detroit, Michigan, of course, "Rate Cut May Not Nudge the Economy, Some Doubt It Will Spur Consumer Business Spending." And by the way, I don't know, can you see that up on top? "Happy Birthday." We don't send out enough birthday greetings, but "Happy Birthday to the Potato Chip," which is noted on the front page of "The Detroit News."
How much time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty.
BROWN: Oh, my goodness.
"Fed Sees Firmer Economy, Trims Rates," also an accurate headline, that's in "The Cincinnati Enquirer," and that would be Cincinnati, Ohio, to that person.
I love this story. "San Francisco Chronicle," "Representative Issa," he's the guy who's leading the recall effort, "Was Charged Once in Auto Theft." Oh, man, he got some exsplaining to do.
That's morning papers. We will see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired June 25, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
On the one hand our lead story tonight should be totally unsurprising, the discovery of a small number of components useful in the development of nuclear weapons in Iraq is hardly a shocker but context counts and this story requires a fair amount of context on all sides of the arguments it is bound to create. So, we'll take a pretty slow walk through the discovery tonight, avoiding big leaps to unsustainable conclusions.
David Ensor leads off our coverage and leads off the whip too, David a headline on this one.
DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, those elements that you spoke of got there from a senior Iraqi scientist who dug them up in his backyard. Experts and CIA officials are telling me they are the critical parts if Iraq was ever to reconstitute its nuclear weapons program.
BROWN: OK, David we'll get back to you at the top tonight.
Then, Mike Boettcher who spoke to the senior Iraqi scientist who led the United States to that backyard, so Mike your headline.
MIKE BOETTCHER, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, we're at an undisclosed location because this is the secret place where that scientist was being interviewed. We talked to him at length about why he chose to dig up his rosebush. Underneath that were all the documents and those components -- Aaron.
BROWN: Mike, thank you.
On to Florida now and the fate of a young, pregnant, disabled woman forced into a debate over abortion. Susan Candiotti has been covering this story and she's with us tonight, Susan a headline.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron, and what forced her into the debate this woman was raped while living in a home where she was supposed to be protected by the state of Florida. Tonight, a judge has ruled that this woman should give birth. She is severely retarded. There's been a lot of controversy surrounding this case. We'll tell you more about it.
BROWN: Susan, thank you.
And, you might want to wake your kids for this one, a new crackdown by the recording industry to stop file sharing on the web. This one may hit some people very close to home literally. Jen Rogers on that from L.A. tonight, Jen a headline.
JEN ROGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, there Aaron. That is indeed the case. Today, the recording industry launching its latest offensive in its war against online song swapping. Who are they going after this time? Well, it's not big business. It's not ISPs. It's real people.
BROWN: Jen, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, Ben Wedeman from Iraq from that town where six British troops lost their lives yesterday. The struggle to find out what happened there.
A story from Kelli Arena tonight on how paintball has become a factor in a federal terrorism investigation, yes, paintball.
And, hope for a cease-fire deal among Palestinian terrorists is still just that, hope. We'll hear from the Palestinian legal adviser, Diana Buttu tonight, all of that to come and more in a full hour ahead.
We begin with the nuclear components in the rose garden in the backyard in Baghdad. It is important with a story like this to understand both what it is, and it is something, and what it is not. It is not the smoking gun, a deal clincher that the Iraqis had an active nuclear program in the days before the war.
We have two reports tonight. We begin first with CNN's David Ensor.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR (voice-over): CNN has learned that the Central Intelligence Agency has in its hands the critical parts of a key piece of Iraqi nuclear technology, parts needed to develop a bomb program that were hidden in a backyard in Baghdad.
The parts were dug up by this man, Iraqi scientist Mahdi Obeidi who had hidden them under a rose bush 12 years ago under orders from Qusay Hussein and Saddam Hussein's then son-in-law Hussein Kamel.
They are the key parts and documents for reconstructing a sophisticated gas centrifuge system for enriching uranium for bombs, shown exclusively to CNN at CIA headquarters in Virginia.
Former U.N. arms inspector David Kay, now in charge of the CIA effort started work earlier this week in Baghdad. We spoke to him about the case over a secure teleconferencing line from CIA headquarters.
DAVID KAY: It begins to tell us how huge our job is. Remember his material was buried in a barrel behind his house in a rose garden. There's no way that that would have been discovered by normal international inspections. I couldn't have done it. My successors couldn't have done it.
ENSOR: The gas centrifuge equipment dates back to Iraq's pre- 1991 efforts to build nuclear weapons. Experts say the documents and pieces Obeidi gave the U.S. were the critical information and parts to restart a nuclear weapons program and would have saved Saddam's regime several years and as much as hundreds of millions of dollars for research.
(on camera): What did you think about seeing all this stuff on a table in the CIA?
KAY: It was a realization I hadn't gotten all the parts. I certainly hadn't gotten all the documentation, so there was a pang of regret but there was also almost an exhilaration that now maybe we have a chance to take this to the very bottom.
ENSOR: U.S. officials emphasize this is not a smoking gun. This is not evidence Iraq had a nuclear weapon but it is evidence the Iraqis concealed plans to reconstitute their nuclear program as soon as the world was no longer looking.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ENSOR: Now, CNN had this story last week but made a decision to withhold it from broadcast after a request from the U.S. government citing safety and national security concerns. The U.S. government has now told us that the security and safety issues have been dealt with and there's no risk now in telling the story -- Aaron.
BROWN: There have been a number in the course, even during the war and since of discoveries that prove to be less than they first seemed. Could these items be anything other than what the government claims them to be?
ENSOR: Not in the view of a number of experts that I've spoken to. We've run the pictures of these items by outside experts as well as the CIA expert on this matter and others.
So, in their view there's no question this is gas centrifuge technology and very sophisticated stuff at that. Mind you there's no evidence that this was reconstituted after 1991. It was being hidden. That was illegal. It was lied about and the government in Iraq was presumably holding it with plans to try again one day.
BROWN: And, do we have any sense of how long, assuming they did in fact try again one day, something that won't happen, how long it would have taken them to develop a weapon?
ENSOR: A rough estimate from one nuclear expert at the CIA three and a half years.
BROWN: Got it, David thank you very much, David Ensor tonight.
Whatever their differences, the Bush administration and most experts in the field do agree on this one thing. Until Iraqis start talking progress in the search for weapons will be hard to come by. This is how it played out after the first Gulf War when Hussein Kamel defected to Jordan, crates of incriminating documents in his possession. His father-in-law, Saddam Hussein, lured him back across the border and then had him murdered. With Saddam's fate still a question mark, it isn't hard to understand why an Iraqi scientist might be reluctant to talk today.
CNN's Mike Boettcher did speak with the scientist who did the talking in this case.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MAHDI OBEIDI, IRAQI NUCLEAR SCIENTIST: That I had...
BOETTCHER (voice-over): This is why Mahdi Obeidi, the Iraqi nuclear scientist says he came forward.
OBEIDI: A complete system that can reconstitute a nuclear program would be something that if it could fall in the hands of dictators or terrorists or any other group it might really play havoc in the destiny of humanity and therefore I felt it is an obligation, an urge that I should take these things which involved designs, documents, and the critical centrifuge materials to take it into safe hands.
BOETTCHER: We can't tell you where we interviewed Obeidi, only that he and his family are now safely out of Iraq. He says he's turned over parts and plans required to make a gas centrifuge, a key tool for enriching uranium to make nuclear bomb materials. But, he says, he wasn't the only scientist ordered to hide this kind of equipment.
OBEIDI: I fear there may be more than the three other copies and I think it's quite important to look for these so that they would not fall in the hands of the wrong people.
BOETTCHER: He says if the Iraqi government had retrieved the documents and parts it would have shortened the time needed for Iraq to make a nuclear weapon by three years.
OBEIDI: There was that intention and there was that concealment mechanism and it was awaiting the right time.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BOETTCHER: However, mysteriously Obeidi says even after U.N. inspectors left Iraq in 1998, he never got the order from Saddam Hussein or any of his lieutenants to dig up that rose garden. Still, he is certain that if Saddam Hussein would have stayed in power he would have gotten that order someday -- Aaron.
BROWN: Just to be clear on that last point, what he is saying is after the inspectors left that the regime did not, to his knowledge at least, reactivate their nuclear program, correct?
BOETTCHER: No, they did not. In fact, he's saying that they left it alone from the point he buried it in 1991 up until now, although he told me in the interview that he had received additional information that there may have been a parallel program in 2002, a conceptual program to think about putting this back together but he is certain that he would have been called to be part of that team because he led the program that actually developed it back 12 years ago.
BROWN: Does he have any information on any other sorts of weapons of mass destruction?
BOETTCHER: He says he does not. I asked him about chemical weapons, biological weapons. Later on he worked for a state agency that dealt in construction of certain plants, even some chemical plants.
He says he was not involved in that. He does say there were three other kits like the one he received, the gas centrifuge kits that allowed them to put back these gas centrifuges in a shorter period of time.
He went to pick his up in 1991, Aaron, and he says when he went there, there were three others. He doesn't know where they went but he has an idea who the scientists might be and he's told the U.S. about it and they're supposed to question those scientists.
BROWN: Mike, thank you, Mike Boettcher tonight.
Having spent a fair amount of time on this, a little bit more here in trying to put it in context. It obviously has enormous political and geopolitical dimensions to the story, so we'll turn to CNN Analyst Ken Pollack who is with us in Washington tonight.
Ken, what do you make of it?
KEN POLLACK, CNN ANALYST: Well, this is potentially very significant, Aaron, and first you're sounding the right note I think in being cautious about this. We have seen in the past claims about weapons of mass destruction turn out to be not accurate. In other cases, we've seen claims about weapons of mass destruction turn out to be just unproven. The jury is out on them.
This one seems pretty good and it does seem to be proof that the Iraqis, at the very least, were cheating. They weren't abiding by the U.N. resolutions. They did have ill intent. They were intending to keep the weapons of mass destruction program and, particularly, a nuclear bomb making program.
But, as you've also pointed out, the key issue here, and this is going to be still a problem for the Bush administration that this signals Iraq's intent down the road. It doesn't indicate an imminent threat to the United States.
BROWN: Now, you supported the concept of the war. The administration in arguing for the war did portray the threat from Iraq as an imminent one. On this subject, on the nuclear weapons and generally have we seen anything that says that Iraq was an imminent threat? POLLACK: Well, since you raised my own participation, I'll say I never believed that Iraq was an imminent threat. In fact, I argued the opposite that Iraq was a longer term threat. And no, I don't think that so far we've uncovered anything that would indicate that Iraq was an imminent threat.
I think the stuff that is being uncovered, the gas centrifuges, if those biological warfare laboratories, the claimed biological warfare laboratories are proven to be biological warfare laboratories that too will demonstrate a potential threat, a longer term threat, the fact that the Iraqis were trying to keep hold of a production capability that would allow them at some point in the future to reconstitute the actual weapons but not the weapons themselves.
BROWN: I wonder if beyond the parts themselves the significance here then is something slightly different which is that an important Iraqi scientist is talking and that may, may lead others to do the same.
POLLACK: Yes, that is also certainly an important element of this story, Aaron. As David Kay pointed out in the clip that you showed of him, there is no way that any inspector was going to come across this.
The United States, even with a broad international coalition, is not going to be able to dig up every backyard in Iraq. It is going to require Iraqis coming forward and saying I know where stuff is. If the stuff is going to be found to the extent that it is there in Iraq, and we just don't know how big the programs were or how many people did have similar things like this in their backyard, it's going to require people to come forward.
And, hopefully, if this scientist having come forward lives to see many days in the future, other Iraqi scientists will say, you know what, Saddam really can't threaten us anymore and, therefore, we can come forward.
BROWN: We haven't had a chance to talk in actually quite a while, lot's gone on. Let me ask you something on a different -- in a different area. Do you think it's -- looking at what sort of played out over the last six weeks, this kind of slow but steady drumbeat of attacks on Americans, the attacks on the British forces yesterday, are we looking at the tip, if you will, of a guerrilla war?
POLLACK: We could well be. That's -- I think you're getting exactly the right issue, Aaron, which is that there are problems in Iraq, problems related to the simple fact that we have brought down a totalitarian regime, but problems also because the United States did not have in place ready to go a successor, a new system, a new set of guidelines for what would come after that.
We've opened up a power vacuum. I think that what we're seeing these guerrilla attacks in many ways are really the symptoms of the broader problem though. The broader problem we have is there are a lot of Iraqis right now who are very happy to be rid of Saddam Hussein and grateful to the United States for doing so but very angry at the United States for not being able to turn on their water, not being able to turn on their power, for in many cases creating problems greater than even they were experiencing before the war occurred as a result of the flight of all of the civil servants.
If we can't solve that problem, this guerrilla war is going to get worse and I'd also suggest that actually this guerrilla war may actually be the least of the problems that we face.
On the other hand, if we can start to solve those problems, and I will say that after some real mis-starts I think (unintelligible) Bremer has come in and done a pretty good job so far with some real exceptions but by and large a pretty good job. If he can start to turn things around, I think that you will start to see the guerrilla problem also abate.
BROWN: We should talk more about that. We will. You come back hopefully soon and we'll get into that or perhaps if we're really lucky the problems will just go away. Ken, it's good to have you on the program again. Thank you.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight on a Wednesday night, is playing paintball a suspicious activity? It might be under some circumstances. Kelli Arena has that coming up.
And, a Florida judge rules there will be no abortion for a mentally incompetent rape victim. Susan Candiotti with us tonight as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As soon as next week, a group of men could be facing terrorism charges in part because they're fond of playing paintball. The government says it has a lot more to go on than just that but when rose gardens come with nuclear components and student pilots hijack airliners, investigators aren't finding it so hard to look at a paintball pistol and see a smoking gun.
Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. born Hammad Abdur-Raheem says he's been interviewed by the FBI at least four times. Government sources tell CNN that he is one of about a dozen Washington area Muslims whose homes have been searched and are under investigation for suspected links to terrorism.
HAMMAD ABDUR-RAHEEM:I know I haven't done anything. I know my friends haven't done anything.
ARENA: Abdur-Raheem and others under investigation all studied here at the Center for Islamic Information and Education in Falls Church, Virginia under a well known scholar named Ali al-Timimi who investigators believe may be a terrorist recruiter. Rita Katz is a government consultant on terrorism issues. RITA KATZ, AUTHOR "TERRORIST HUNTER": One option is whether or not he had played a role in recruiting them, indoctrinating them, especially by sending them abroad and other options that they are looking into is whether or not he had just played the role of justification, giving them the justification for a terrorist attack.
ARENA: After September 11, Abdur-Raheem says al-Timimi told the men to leave the United States to avoid backlash against Muslims. Several did and traveled to places like Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. Investigators have been looking into whether they went to train at terror camps, a charge Abdur-Raheem denies.
ABDUR-RAHEEM: These guys are working, taking care of their families, going to school, learning Arabic, learning Islam.
ARENA: CNN tried repeatedly to reach al-Timimi. In a statement his lawyers say that he "fervently denies any formal or informal charges by the FBI or the Department of Justice that he has in the past supported or currently is supporting terrorism and terrorist activity."
Government sources say they are particularly interested in the relationship some of the men have to a Pakistani-based group which is fighting Indian forces over Kashmir. The organization has since been designated a terror group by the U.S.
At least nine searches of homes and cars in the last six months turned up a variety of items, including a printout of FBI headquarters, some weapons, and what investigators called extremist literature.
Investigators also found paintball equipment. The men who studied under al-Timimi used to participate in games. Sources suggest it may have been jihad training in disguise.
ABDUR-RAHEEM: We have denied this. Everyone has denied this. There's no proof of this. We're just playing a game, OK.
ARENA (on camera): Sources tell CNN that at least one or more of the men is expected to face charges perhaps as early as next week, but they refuse to elaborate.
(voice-over): Abdur-Raheem says that would actually be a relief at this point.
ABDUR-RAHEEM: We say to them if you have something come with it. If you don't, leave us alone. Stop the harassment.
ARENA: Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The understatement of the day comes from someone involved in the case of a 22-year-old disabled woman in Florida. They talked about her current predicament, a woman with the mind of a toddler, no family, raped while in state care, pregnant, and forced into the spotlight when Florida's Governor Jeb Bush tried to get a guardian appointed for her fetus.
Predicament hardly goes far enough to describe all that. Now, the woman is under a court order to continue a pregnancy that her lawyer has said she's not even aware of but the decision wasn't based on the advice of the governor.
Here's CNN's Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): We know her only by her initials, this mother-to-be, JDS, only 22 years old with no known family. Police say she has the mental capacity of a one-year-old. According to court filings, JDS has Cerebral Palsy and she's autistic.
She didn't become pregnant by choice. She was raped, police say, in a group home overseen by the state of Florida. JDS is now more than six months pregnant. Since she's incapable of making her own decisions, a Florida judge based his decision on whether she should give birth on a recommendation from a guardian he appointed.
According to the guardian's report, two doctors agree JDS is "in good health" adding "two sonograms reveal no obvious or significant fetal abnormalities." Though JDS is autistic, a guardian says: "JDS appears to be responsive, not just sitting in a semiconscious state all the time."
Still undecided an appeal by Governor Jeb Bush who wants a guardian appointed for the fetus. He says the unborn child must be protected. However, a spokesman for the governor says he calls the court ruling for JDS not to abort the baby compassionate and humane.
Last month in Miami, a judge ordered an abortion for another severely disabled raped woman who had been living in a state regulated home. In that case, the young woman's mother approved of the abortion.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: And, in this case, there are a lot of unanswered questions still. For example, what will happen to the baby and what will happen to JDS? Of course, according to the guardian, she is very worried about that too and she has warned the court that she hopes the mother will be placed in a better home when all of this is over, one where she is far better protected than she was by the state in a home where police say she was raped -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, two questions. Do they know who the rapist is? That's sort of a yes or no I suppose. And, the other, has the state done anything, is it doing anything to tighten up security in these places where defenseless people are being attacked?
CANDIOTTI: Well, first of all regarding the rape, they hope to find out who the father is once she gives birth because they will analyze DNA from the baby in order to try to determine paternity in this case. And, the governor has ordered a panel of experts now to study this issue of security, far better security that is clearly needed for people such as this woman, JDS, living in group homes.
BROWN: Well, we'll wait for the report. Thank you, Susan, Candiotti in Florida tonight.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT a cease-fire in the Middle East, is there one or not? Lots of talk, actions say something different. We'll talk to a Palestinian Authority representative, their legal adviser when we continue from New York. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the Middle East tonight, it appears a cease-fire is close but not quite there. Negotiators for the Palestinian Authority say they've got Hamas and Islamic Jihad and other radical groups to agree to stop attacks on Israeli civilians for three months, but a Hamas spokesman said no formal agreement has been reached. An Israeli government spokesman says an agreement is immaterial, only deeds count. And, President Bush today called for the dismantling of Hamas entirely.
So, a lot of voices talking in a lot of directions tonight. In the meantime, Israel launched another attack on Hamas. The target of the assassination survived. Two bystanders did not. A dozen other people were wounded. With that as a backdrop, we spoke earlier today with Diana Buttu, who is the legal adviser to the PLO.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Since I'm a little bit confused at this point, is there a cease-fire deal or isn't there?
DIANA BUTTU, LEGAL ADVISER TO THE PLO: No, there is not yet an agreement with Hamas and with Islamic Jihad to end attacks on Israelis. The Palestinian Authority has been in discussions with these groups and the discussions have ended. We're simply waiting to hear from these organizations whether they've agreed to the conditions set forth by us.
BROWN: Do you know what is holding this up at this point because it seems in some respects a fairly straightforward decision they have to make?
BUTTU: Well, what's holding it up is issues such as today's assassination attempt. Israel has repeatedly assassinated individuals who are members of Hamas, and not just assassinated Hamas individuals, but also taking the lives of innocent bystanders. For example, today, two people alone were killed, and another 16 injured in yet another assassination attempt.
And what these groups are saying to us is that cease-fires can't be simply one way. They have to be two ways. And Israel's also obligated under the road map to stop its attacks against Palestinian civilians. It can't simply be a one-way street. And so while we are doing our best to try to obtain an agreement from these groups, Israel is taking every single step to try to undermine that, including assassination attempts, including home demolition, three houses were demolished just today, and including arresting Palestinians without charge, 130 Palestinians were arrested yesterday without charge and without reason.
So Israel is taking every single measure to simply undermine the road map and to undermine our efforts to get an agreement with Hamas and with Islamic Jihad.
BROWN: Just without arguing that point, is it -- would it not be true that a cease-fire agreement, if there were to be one, and if it were to hold, would, in fact, put pressure on Israel, significant international pressure on Israel, to stop the very things that you're talking about?
BUTTU: Well, it may, but the question is, are -- is Israel going to abide by it? And we've seen, just over the course of the past week, that after a very strong rebuke by the president and by the secretary of state, Israel yet again attempted to assassinate more Palestinians, and in the process, again, killed innocent civilians.
And so I'm quite critical and skeptical that the United States and the international community will put any pressure on Israel. Israel for the past 36 years has had absolutely no pressure on it, and I'm skeptical that the United States is going to do the things that it's supposed to do. I hope that they will, but, again, it's a question of looking at the past and to see exactly what Israel has done in the past.
And in the past, in the face of international criticism, Israel continues not only to build more and more settlements, to take more and more Palestinian land, but has at this point killed 2,300 Palestinian civilians.
BROWN: Well, and since we are talking now about numbers, more than 500 Israeli civilians have died as well. We've gone at this for 1,000 days now, this intifada. Has it accomplished a single constructive thing?
BUTTU: Well, this isn't a question of accomplishing or not accomplishing anything. This is a question of people who, for 36 years, have been living under, you know, the equivalent of the -- today's equivalent of slavery.
This is about people actually resisting that occupation and deciding that they don't want to live under Israel's rule any longer.
Mahmoud Abbas, the Palestinian prime minister, has called for an end for the armed intifada, but he certainly hasn't called for an end to the uprising itself. And the reason for that is very clear. Palestinians do have a right to resist Israeli occupation. Every people who is denied their freedom is the -- has the right to resist that and try to get their freedom. The armed elements, in the opinion of Mahmoud Abbas, have certainly not done a whole lot, but at the same time, the question is, is the killing of 2,300 Palestinian civilians done anything for Israel either?
I think that what we should be looking at is how is it that we move forward? And how is it that we actually end this 36-year military occupation?
The only way that I believe it will end is if the international community begins to put pressure on Israel, to teach Israel that it's not above the law and that the Palestinians are not beneath the law any longer.
BROWN: Well, we'll see if today is the beginning of something or if we're closer to something. It's good to talk to you again. Thank you very much.
BUTTU: Thank you.
BROWN: Diana Buttu. We talked to her earlier today.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, unrest in Iraq. What happened when six British soldiers were killed? And the fallout in London from that, and more.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN FINANCIAL NEWS: I'm Susan Lisovicz with this MONEYLINE update. A smaller-than-expected interest rate cut fueled a broad-based sell-off. The Dow fell 98 points, the Nasdaq lost 3, the S&P 500 fell 8. The Federal Reserve cut short-term rates by a quarter of a percent.
Watch "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" weeknights at 6:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.
Now, back to NEWSNIGHT with Aaron Brown.
BROWN: Next on NEWSNIGHT, more of what went wrong when six British soldiers were killed yesterday in Iraq. That story and more. We continue after a short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Well, the way things are going, one day soon banks may start paying you to finance a home or borrow money instead of the other way around. We're not there yet, but we seem to be getting closer with every Federal Reserve meeting.
Today, as Susan Lisovicz just reported, the Fed cut interest rates, this time by a quarter a percent, leaving interest rates as low as they have been since "Ozzie and Harriet," and fueling a land rush of refinancing already under way.
Here's CNN's John Zarrella.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the loan amount.
DAWN WARREN, HOME OWNER: OK.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Dawn Warren couldn't be happier. Warren, single and the manager of a thrift store, closed on a new mortgage that she says will save her $300 a month.
WARREN: Makes life more comfortable, but that extra money can now go towards doing some more fixing up in the house.
ZARRELLA: Warren refinanced at 5 1/8 percent for 25 years. Her original mortgage on the home she bought two years ago was a 30-year loan at 7 percent. It's estimated Americans will this year alone refinance $2 trillion in loans.
Brokers at Nationwide Mortgage say that's no surprise to them.
EDUARDO SAMA, VICE PRESIDENT, NATIONWIDE MORTGAGE: We've had more applications in the last two months than I think we've ever had before.
ZARRELLA: And they warn you may be making a mistake that will cost you thousands if you are waiting for rates to fall further.
SAMA: A lot of folks are still paying 8, 9 percent. Anyone who's paying that interest rate, or even in the 7s, really needs to refinance now, because this is not going to last.
ZARRELLA: Miami attorney Harold Garber says a year ago, he thought rates were bottomed out. Now, who knows in which direction they will head? Garber, who handles real estate transactions, says consolidating debt is another very good reason to consider refinancing.
HAROLD GARBER, ATTORNEY: In some instances, and this isn't all, but in some instances, they find that they're make the same payments every month that they had been making before, but with this lower interest rate, they've already paid off their credit cards.
ZARRELLA: Garber and other financial experts say if you fit the refinancing profile, do what Dawn Warren did, take advantage now. Rolling the dice that rates will fall even further isn't, the experts, say, a gamble worth taking.
John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Well, all of that must seem pretty trivial to the participants in this next story, two small towns thousands of miles apart, connected by one bloody incident that residents in both places will remember for a lifetime. The town of Gloucester in England, home base of six British troops who were killed yesterday in Iraq.
As one politician there put it today, "This is the darkest day Gloucester has experienced in almost 60 years."
And then is the Iraqi town, where people are mourning some of their own who died yesterday as well. British forces struggling to piece together what happened, as is CNN's Ben Wedeman.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Blood marks the spot where their dead or wounded bodies were dragged through the police station in the southern Iraqi town of al-Majar al-Kabir. British military police killed in the bloodiest day for coalition forces since the fall of Saddam Hussein.
The incident appears to have been sparked by local concern that British forces were about to conduct house-to-house searches for heavy weapon. House searches a highly sensitive issue in this conservative Shi'ite Muslim town.
"When it began, when there were children and soldiers, some people exploited the situation by opening fire on the British forces," says Dr. Adel Ashawi (ph), head of the local hospital.
The British troops retreated to the police station and were quickly surrounded by angry townspeople, many of them armed.
"There were no more than 15 or 20 armed men. They had old AK-47 rifles," says Ahmed Yunis (ph), a member of the local security committee.
The front of the police station is peppered with bullet holes. Several rocket-propelled grenades also hit the building. Bits of one grenade still lodged in the wall.
On the roof of the school across the street, spent rounds litter what a former soldier describes as ideal firing positions.
It is not clear exactly where or how the six British soldiers were killed. The British are treating it as an isolated incident.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This was not a carefully planned, well- coordinated attack.
WEDEMAN: British forces are now on an elevated state of alert.
Up the street from the police station, friends and relatives mourn the death of 25-year-old shop owner Abbas Jasam (ph), one of at least four Iraqis killed in the fight. Here, bitterness and anger.
(on camera): The precise details of what happened here are not clear, but what is clear is that in Iraq, even in areas normally considered calm and friendly to coalition forces, things can very suddenly and very violently spin out of control.
Ben Wedeman, CNN, al-Majar al-Kabir, in southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a crackdown on downloaders. Recording industry says it will start going after people who are illegally downloading music. The truth and the consequences in a moment.
Around the world. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Kudos to senator and love-song writer Orrin Hatch tonight. The man who recorded an album called "Whispers of My Heart" has, well, a provocative idea for stopping the millions who swap music illegally on the Web, and that includes maybe your innocent-looking teenaged child.
Last week, before backing away from it, he suggested that somehow destroying the computer of a repeat offender from afar, that would do it.
The music business is now stepping up the fight against file- sharing, but it's not using some sort of PC death ray. It is using old-fashioned legal weapons, taking the fight directly to the folks doing the swapping.
Here's CNN's Jen Rogers.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEN ROGERS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ken Mackiewicz may not look like he is stealing, but the recording industry considers him a thief, one of an estimated 50 million Americans swapping songs online who could find themselves in court.
CARY SHERMAN, PRESIDENT, RIAA: We're really serious. We've come to the conclusion that the only way that you deter illegal behavior is by taking actions that make it clear that there can be consequences. People don't shoplift because they are afraid of getting caught.
ROGERS: The recording industry has been fighting this battle against businesses, like Napster, who made it easy to listen to music for free. But now, in its most aggressive move yet, it's turning up heat on individuals, taking names and preparing lawsuits, claiming copyright infringement.
The RIAA says over 2 billion songs are illegally downloaded every month.
KEN MACKIEWICZ, ONLINE MUSIC SWAPPER: I don't consider myself a thief, because using what is freely available to anyone who is online.
ROGERS: Beginning tomorrow, the RIAA says it will search public networks for the biggest offenders. The first charges could be filed as early as August, and fines could be to the tune of $150,000 per violation.
FRED VON LOHMANN, ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION: I think it's crazy to think that this tactic is going to be the new business model for the recording industry, right? I mean, no matter how many lawsuits are brought, I doubt seriously that they are going to put a single penny into the pockets of artists.
ROGERS: For his part, Mackiewicz says, he is not intimidated by the threat of the lawsuit.
MACKIEWICZ: There's a million people out there doing it. You know, my collection, I think, isn't as big as some of the other people's. So, yes, I am not really worried.
ROGERS: The recording industry hopes his attitude will be the exception to the rule.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROGERS: So does this mean that every parent out there with one of those innocent-looking teenagers downloading and sharing Britney and Pink songs should be worried? Well, at this point, the recording industry says they are going after people that share a substantial amount of music.
They also said, though, you run the risk of being sued regardless of your age, Aaron.
BROWN: Jen, thank you. Jen Rogers in L.A. tonight.
We'll admit to needing a little guidance in terms of high-tech and the law here. We often turn to Alex Wellen when we do. He used to co-host a program "Cybercrime" on Tech TV. In a former life, he practiced intellectual property law, which makes him, perhaps, the perfect person to talk about all of this.
Good to see you again.
How do they go about finding who is a substantial violator?
ALEX WELLEN, HIGH-TECH LEGAL ANALYST: We've had a new step in the cases that's going to make it a lot easier. And the decision in the Verizon case demonstrates that the recording industry can go to Verizon, and Verizon, under a law called the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, has a responsibility to give over information about the user.
So the recording industry is out there. They see that somebody's using a name. And then they go, and they can easily find out who that Internet service provider is. And then in turn, they go to Verizon or Earthlink or whoever has that information, and under this new law, they have to give all that information that you would need for a lawsuit to the recording industry.
BROWN: They don't need any sort of warrant, any permission from the court? They don't have to tell you they are looking at your records? They can just go do it?
WELLEN: That's right, Aaron. Where is all the due process? That is really the problem. In the past, what would happen is, someone like the recording industry would go to a Verizon, and Verizon would talk to the person and say, you know, The recording industry wants that kind of information. And as a result, you would be, like, a John Doe or a Jane Doe.
But under the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the way it works is, because Internet service providers are given some sort of protection, so you can't sue them for copyright infringement or contributory copyright infringement, as a result, the tradeoff, the quid pro quo, is that they have to roll over and give over that information with no search warrants, with nothing more than a conversation and a good-faith belief that, in fact, you are stealing that music.
BROWN: Yes, I had this conversation with a 14-year-old I know quite well, that this is -- that this is...
WELLEN: Part of your family.
BROWN: ... a 14-year-old I know quite well, that this is, in fact, stealing, and that we ought not be thieves around the house or anywhere else. Is there, in fact, any practical defense available to people who are caught in this deal?
WELLEN: Mostly, no.
BROWN: Yes.
WELLEN: It -- the law is very clear. Case after case has said that you are a direct infringer if you are exchanging music back and forth and you're not paying for it.
I will give you this, though, and many people have held onto this law very tightly. And that is, the Audio Home Recording Act, which you may remember, making tapes up for friends or maybe somebody gave you a tape, a girlfriend, or you gave a girlfriend a tape, and you had music and put your favorite songs on there. This exchange, this personal use, is acceptable. It's looked as de minimus, right? It's not looked at -- they'll look the other way.
But when you get the large-scale copyright infringement, when you put hundred of songs on the Internet, and it's available for anyone to download, and I don't know if that 14-year-old that you know personally does that, then you have a problem. Then you have no case. You are a copyright infringer.
BROWN: And the penalties are enormous, if they, I mean, theoretically enormous, I suppose, if you find a court that's willing to hear the case, or, given that there isn't much of a defense, you just roll over and write a check.
WELLEN: Yes. You know, it's a lot of scare tactics. The real issue right now is, and I was listening to the package that you played before this, will it work? Nothing has worked at this point. Will it really be a general deterrent to other people? And when does it become a general deterrent? It depends on how much money.
Yes, you could get $150,000 per infringement. That's unheard of. It never happens. The cases that we've seen have been $5,000, $10,000, just to send a message.
So, yes, you know, I will tell you something else that will really scare people when it will happen. It will happen, is when they use the NET elect -- the No Electronic Theft Act, which lets you go after people for criminal, for criminal copyright infringement. That will scare a lot of people.
But yes, the ups, it could be a lot of money. It probably won't be.
BROWN: Alex, good to see you again. Thank you very much.
WELLEN: Nice to see you too. Thanks.
BROWN: Thank you.
Morning papers coming up next on NEWSNIGHT. We'll look at tomorrow's news tonight, because we can.
Break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Boy, we spare no expense. By the way, do we pay extra for the rooster, or will it just -- it just works for free?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Free.
BROWN: Thank you.
OK, time to check morning papers from around country and around the world, or, in this case, I think, just around the country.
We'll begin with "The New York Times." People will be talking about this. In fact, we'll probably be talking about this tomorrow, I would expect. "Very Richest Share of Wealth Grew Even Bigger, Data Show." You know, "The Times," which is a great newspaper, does not write necessarily the neatest headlines I have ever seen.
The 400 wealthiest taxpayers accounted for more than 1 percent of all income in the United States. Think about that. Anyway, pretty cool story on the front page of "The Times."
There's something else I liked there, but I don't remember it now. That happens in this segment.
Kind of interesting on how all the newspapers play the rate cut, the Fed rate cut. "The Detroit Free Press," "It's Now or Never to Revive the Economy." That's their take on it. Go over to "The Detroit News," the other paper in Detroit, Michigan, of course, "Rate Cut May Not Nudge the Economy, Some Doubt It Will Spur Consumer Business Spending." And by the way, I don't know, can you see that up on top? "Happy Birthday." We don't send out enough birthday greetings, but "Happy Birthday to the Potato Chip," which is noted on the front page of "The Detroit News."
How much time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty.
BROWN: Oh, my goodness.
"Fed Sees Firmer Economy, Trims Rates," also an accurate headline, that's in "The Cincinnati Enquirer," and that would be Cincinnati, Ohio, to that person.
I love this story. "San Francisco Chronicle," "Representative Issa," he's the guy who's leading the recall effort, "Was Charged Once in Auto Theft." Oh, man, he got some exsplaining to do.
That's morning papers. We will see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
