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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Jordan Gives Refuge to Saddam's Daughter; Bail Set for Donna Walker in Indiana Reunion Hoax; Debate Over Episcopalian Gay Bishop
Aired August 01, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
We should perhaps title our lead story tonight Saddam's family values, the softer side of a brutal regime. No one it seems, even Saddam, is one dimensional as we learned from two of his daughters tonight.
To you he was the face of evil. To them he was a kind and loving father. That's a quote, a man with a great big heart, perhaps not a forgiving heart, he did after all have the husbands of his two daughters killed but what family doesn't have a chapter they're not exactly proud of?
The daughters Hussein begin the whip tonight. Jane Arraf landed the interview that made news around the world. She's in Amman, Jane a headline from you.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Saddam Hussein's daughters in mourning for their brothers say they love their father, they miss their father, and they hope to see him again.
BROWN: Thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.
We'll also have the latest on the hunt for Saddam. Rym Brahimi is in Baghdad working on a satellite problem there.
Of other matters, a court appearance for the woman accused in that horrible hoax aimed at an Indiana family. David Mattingly is in Lebanon, Indiana, David a headline.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the woman accused of making an Indiana family believe in a miracle that wasn't real tonight wonders why she is in jail -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you.
And, on to the controversy over whether an openly gay man will be made an Episcopal bishop. Susan Candiotti worked the story today in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Susan the headline.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. One vote down two more to go for those who support approval of the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church, opponents predict major defections if that happens. Tonight we go one-on-one with Reverend Gene Robinson, that interview coming up. BROWN: Susan, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on this Friday edition of NEWSNIGHT, the days and nights and days and nights of a medical resident, we'll follow one resident just as the new rules take effect cutting back on the hours they must work.
The posters insist the movie is called (unintelligible) but every critic in America seems to be calling it grade A butterball. We'll look at the latest in a long history of Hollywood turkeys with film critic Harlan Jacobson.
And, for those of you who just hate getting ink all over your hands we'll do the dirty work for you. We're a full service outfit here at NEWSNIGHT. It must mean a long-winded way of telling you we'll get to morning papers as well, all of that in the hour ahead.
We begin tonight with a flurry of news from Iraq, starting with new pictures of what Saddam Hussein might now look like. They come from the Defense Department, digital simulations of Saddam with a bear, Saddam wearing a traditional headdress and a beard, the hair is going gray as well, pictures also of Saddam with a full head of gray hair with and without his signature moustache.
Also today a very different portrait emerged from his two daughters that of Saddam the family man, a family that has been under a fair amount of stress lately we suspect.
CNN's Jane Arraf spoke with them in Jordan -- Jane.
ARRAF: Aaron, it certainly was a very different picture of this man than we're used to and the daughters recognize that there is a bit of a discrepancy between the loving father, the man with the big heart who set them on the right road that they describe and the man who was pretty well directly responsible for killing their husbands.
Now, they said in this interview that there were some things that they didn't want to talk about and that one they didn't really want to dwell on except to say their father is in a very difficult position and he would not like to see, in the words of his eldest daughter, his two daughters at war with him.
But despite that they were very clear that their father was a loving man, that there were many good things about him, and they remain close to him. They described it in very emotional terms. The eldest daughter Raghad, 35 years old, the last time she saw him just before the war. Let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAGHAD HUSSEIN, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S DAUGHTER: It was horrible, everybody hugging each other, kissing each other, crying, the kids because there used to be one family. They're almost the same age as their friends and that's it. You can imagine what's happened when you leave your family under big stress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARRAF: Now, that was the last time they saw any of their family members and they said they know their father well enough that they're pretty sure he would not have let anyone know where he is, including their mother.
They're hoping to be reunited with their mother. Here whereabouts are unknown at the moment. They are clearly in mourning for their brothers. Another thing they really didn't want to talk about, despite that estranged relationship, they said at the end of the day they were a family -- Aaron.
BROWN: Seriously, Jane, what is it they wanted to get out? What was the message you think that they were trying to send?
ARRAF: They weren't thrilled, first of all, in doing interviews which is why they really didn't do very many. This was the only interview that the two sisters gave together and really what they wanted to get across, and I think what their hosts, the Jordanian royal family, wanted to get across is that these are two quite ordinary women.
Inexplicably for all of their tragic history, something out of a novel, something out of a movie, the dead husbands, they're left widows. They were married at 15. They have nine children between them. Their brothers were killed in a shootout.
For all of that you can see these are normal women with some really admirable qualities. They are not monsters. They spoke of their father as if they had some redeeming qualities -- as if he did.
And, really at the end of it what came across was an impression that these were women who really were worth protecting and that probably was the message that needed to come across. We probably won't be hearing from them for a while. They say they want to resume normal lives. We'll see if they can -- Aaron.
BROWN: They made their way to Jordan I gather with help of some sort from the Americans in Iraq -- correct?
ARRAF: That's unclear. They don't seem to have had a lot of help frankly from the Americans. They had help and support from the Jordanian royal family, the Hashemite family.
These were the people who gave them refuge in 1995 when their husbands, Hussein and Saddam Kamel, Hussein Kamel you'll remember was the one who revealed a lot of secrets from Saddam's weapons programs.
They defected to Jordan, stayed in the palace in 1995, went back a few months later and their husbands were killed but they remember the Hashemites and particularly the people who were sheltering them from then.
Now, a source close to -- a family source close to the daughter says essentially when asked why they let them in again that simply they asked and in Arab tradition if you are particularly women and children and you ask for protection they have to give protection and that's why they're there -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jane, thank you, nice job, Jane Arraf who's in Amman, Jordan tonight.
Two items in the "Washington Post" today, two stories speak volumes. In one, a father kills his son because he believes his son has been working as an informant for the Americans. In the other, a father turns his son over to the Americans because he believes his son has attacked them.
Divided loyalties and mixed feelings are not unusual in Iraq and today they were tested once again. Here's CNN's Rym Brahimi.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRAHIMI (voice-over): A new audio tape purportedly by Saddam Hussein, this time predicting his return to power.
SADDAM HUSSEIN (through translator): We are confident that the occupying forces will collapse and surrender to the truth and the will of God and that of the people.
BRAHIMI: In a long and rambling audio tape released by the Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera, the speaker outline his detailed vision for Iraq when, in his words, things return to normal.
HUSSEIN (through translator): We have decided to consider all the missing property of the party and the government a gift to whomever has it. Use it as you see fit.
BRAHIMI: Among those who have heard the latest tape, few doubt that it is Saddam Hussein and fewer believe he'll return to power.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What are you talking about? He will never come back. He's a fugitive. He's on the run. He's finished.
BRAHIMI: Even after U.S. forces toppled Saddam Hussein's regime in April, it took weeks for most people to rest assured that after nearly 25 years Iraq's strong man had really fallen from power.
Just before the war began, Saddam Hussein reminded Iraqis of how the uprisings that followed the 1991 Gulf War had been dealt with by a brutal repression in the north and south and the killing of thousands who dared oppose his rule. Now, four months into the U.S. occupation of Iraq, the fear instilled in past years has subsided and Iraqis speak out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Ninety percent of the Iraqi people would not welcome Saddam back and should he declare jihad no one would comply.
BRAHIMI: But even as most here relegate Saddam Hussein to the past there are many who see those resisting the U.S. occupation as worthy combatants. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Saddam Hussein is a criminal president and we don't want him here. We want a new government and those who launch attacks against the U.S. forces are true Fedayeen.
BRAHIMI: The slogan of many Iraqis who are disappointed and losing patience with the U.S. authorities in their country, "Neither Saddam nor the U.S."
Rym Brahimi, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRAHIMI: Now, as you know Aaron, the U.S. military authorities have said that the Army remains very focused on trying to capture or kill Saddam Hussein. They've launched a series of raids. The question really now is if and when they do capture him will that really impact the situation on the ground -- Aaron.
BROWN: And what is the perception there, will it change the conditions on the ground?
BRAHIMI: Well, again, here opinions are really divided but there does seem to be a sense among most people, Aaron that even if Saddam Hussein were captured a lot of people say well we know he's finished.
That was actually the case already when Uday and Qusay, the two sons of Saddam Hussein, were killed people said well we know that part of our history is over. What we really want now is for the Americans to deliver on the basic services.
And, I know it sounds repetitive because we say this all the time but, again, people come back to the same problem security, electricity, and water -- Aaron.
BROWN: Good to have you with us tonight, thank you, Rym thank you.
Presuming that Saddam Hussein is at some point cornered, presuming too that he is caught and not killed, what then? Joining us from Washington is Diane Orentlicher. She is a professor of international law at American University, good to have you with us.
DIANE ORENTLICHER, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Good to be here.
BROWN: Let's just assume for a second, I don't want to get into a discussion about whether he ought to be taken alive or not be taken alive, let's assume he is taken alive. What ought the purpose of a trial be?
ORENTLICHER: Well, I think it would serve several purposes but perhaps the most important one is that it will be an opportunity for Iraqis at a moment of transformation of their society to affirm what they stand for, to declare that now they stand for fairness and the rule of law and democracy and that's a very powerful answer to the violence and lawlessness of the regime that has just come to an end.
I think there's also just a powerful need for some kind of reckoning with the past. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have suffered unspeakable crimes and they do need an opportunity to confront that.
Finally, I think that simply seeing Saddam Hussein in the dock would have a powerful psychological effect on Iraqi society. It would deflate his mythic grip on the national imagination and I wouldn't underestimate the importance of that.
BROWN: A lot of what you just laid out, I think two of the three, presuppose that the trial itself would take place in Iraq. Is that what you believe will happen?
ORENTLICHER: I do think so and I think it would be quite important that it take place in Iraq. I think having trials outside the country is always the last resort. Bringing justice home enables trials to address the society most affected. It enables victims to participate and it allows an opportunity for ownership of the process by Iraqis.
BROWN: Is it an Iraqi trial or is it an Iraqi-American trial or is it an Iraqi-American-U.N.-international community trial? Whose trial is it?
ORENTLICHER: We don't know that yet. I think it's very important that Iraqis see this process as one in which they play a leading role. On the other hand, there's an obvious problem. The Iraqi justice system has been utterly decimated after years of being subordinated to Saddam's rule.
Now, there are some very fine judges, many of whom retired to avoid being corrupted by his regime, yet undertaking a trial of this magnitude requires enormous resources which would strain any legal system.
And so, I think there's going to need to be some kind of outside support. The United Nations has provided a forum for Iraqis to explore their options and I think that process has to play out a bit more.
BROWN: Is it a Nuremberg-like event?
ORENTLICHER: Well, I think it is in the sense that we're talking about not an ordinary multiple murder trial. Saddam Hussein would be prosecuted if he were captured alive for literally hundreds of thousands of crimes and I think the kind of charge we're thinking of is crimes against humanity, atrocious crimes committed on a staggering scale.
BROWN: And, just I guess as you see this, we don't, none of us knows in fact how this will all play out. Is Saddam sitting there alone or is it Saddam and his inner circle, those people who have been captured? Is it that sort of an event or is it one man, one trial, one jury, one judge, a bunch of lawyers? ORENTLICHER: Certainly not. There obviously will have to be more trials than a trial of just one man. You can't commit crimes on the order we've seen in Iraq without a lot of complicitors.
And so, whether Saddam Hussein faces trial or not clearly other people will but the most recent reports have indicated that the major trials will range perhaps to 200 people.
Trials won't be able to address the enormity of all of the crimes Iraqis have endured and they'll probably have to have wide ranging forms of confronting their past in addition to trial. That will be the beginning of the process.
BROWN: Do you think it will -- I mean this is also just a guess, I mean you don't know any more or better than I on this, do you think it will happen? Do you think there will be a trial?
ORENTLICHER: Well, if you -- I don't have a crystal ball with respect to Saddam Hussein.
BROWN: Yes.
ORENTLICHER: I think it's inevitable that there will be trials. Iraqis desperately need justice and we can all understand that and it's part -- it's an important part of their reconstituting themselves as a country to have trials.
There are going to be in a process of declaring what they stand for as a country and reaffirming the rule of law is going to be an essential turning point for them. So, of course there will be trials.
The U.S. government has been collecting massive documentary evidence of Saddam's crimes for over ten years and so there's going to be staggering evidence and there certainly will be trials but I do think there will be other processes as well.
There may be some kind of truth commission like the sort of commission established in South Africa.
BROWN: South Africa, yes.
ORENTLICHER: Yes and there will be other processes as well.
BROWN: We're not there yet. When we get to that point I assume for someone like you and for someone like me in both of our businesses it will be interesting to watch. Thank you.
ORENTLICHER: Oh, fascinating.
BROWN: Have a nice weekend.
ORENTLICHER: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you, Diane, very much. A few items from around the world before we go to break, we'll start in Korea, North Korea this time and today the country seemed to agree to a six-way talk on its nuclear weapons program. This is a step down, a concession from its earlier demand that it would negotiate only with the United States.
Pyongyang did, however, attach a condition that private meetings be held at some point during the larger talks which would involve China, Japan, and South Korea. The State Department said that's OK, we'll do that.
The U.N. Security Council today approved a resolution to send peacekeeping troops to Liberia, the first batch from nearby Nigeria expected to arrive on Monday. As for when or whether Americans will join them that remains an open question tonight.
And, finally to Russia and bloodshed seemingly over Chechnya, a suicide truck bomber hit a military hospital today on the Chechan border. Russia's Interfax News Agency saying at least 35 people were killed. The Kremlin suspects Chechan rebels. The White House issued a statement condemning the attack as an act of terrorism that no cause whatsoever can justify.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT on a Friday, the latest on the Indianapolis hoax case as the woman accused of making up the story of being a long lost daughter has her first day in court.
And later, is it the new blockbuster of badness, some thoughts on how (unintelligible) fits into Hollywood's history of bombs, a break first.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: If things had gone differently, Mike Sherrill might be spending the weekend with the daughter he lost and then found more than a decade later. Instead, he was back today at his family store in Indiana trying to hold onto the shred of hope that still is left and the woman accused of destroying so much hope was in court and in handcuffs.
Once again, CNN's David Mattingly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Donna Walker entered a Topeka courtroom handcuffed and in shackles not saying a word and not understanding, according to her attorney, why she's behind bars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does she believe that she has committed a crime?
BILLY RORK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: To my knowledge based upon the statements we have she still doesn't understand why she is being charged with this. MATTINGLY: Walker has said that she's had phone conversations with the Sherrill family of Indiana and that she was only helping with the investigation into the 17-year-long disappearance of little Shannon Sherrill but nothing from Walker about the accusations that she posed as Shannon and orchestrated what Indiana authorities call a cruel hoax.
TODD MEYERS, BOONE COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Clearly, I wouldn't have filed charges unless I felt that she'd broken the law.
MATTINGLY: Mike Sherrill, who was publicly devastated by the deception, back at work today tending to customers at the family store and worried that his alleged tormenter might one day hurt someone else.
MIKE SHERRILL, SHANNON'S FATHER: She definitely does have a problem. Why make it everybody else's problem. Put her away where nobody can -- she can deal with her own problem in her own way.
MATTINGLY: A Topeka judge revealed a litany of concerns about Walker's mental health, that she's had multiple stays in a state mental hospital with ongoing treatment by a local psychiatrist and psychologist. Her attorney is now preparing a fight to keep her in Kansas and out of an Indiana courtroom.
RORK: But I haven't been convinced a crime has occurred. I think there are some tragedies that have occurred and some very emotional circumstances that occurred but whether that's a crime, that hasn't been determined yet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: If Donna Walker does manage to make bail there will be some restrictions. Among them she will not be allowed to leave town and she will not be allowed to use the telephone -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, I apologize. If you said it I missed it. How much is the bail she is being held on?
MATTINGLY: A hundred thousand dollars and the judge admitted that was a little high but because of his concerns about the possibility that she might be a flight risk he felt like it was justified.
BROWN: It's quite high under the circumstances of what she is accused of, fair?
MATTINGLY: That is correct. In fact, her attorney made the point that there are some people up on murder charges who do not have bail set quite so high.
BROWN: David, thank you very much, David Mattingly in Indiana tonight.
A few more items from around the country starting on a pond or in a pond in the Maryland suburbs just outside of Washington, D.C., well it used to be a pond. The FBI drained it in search of clues to the anthrax killer.
It's near both the bioweapons lab at Fort Dietrich, Maryland and the former home of Dr. Stephen Hatfill, the FBI's so-called person of interest. Well, they drained it, about a million and a half gallons of water. They were looking for spores or lab equipment and things like that. Instead, they found what one law enforcement official today called a lot of junk.
Next to Baltimore and a medical feat that is also quite a logistical accomplishment, doctors at Johns Hopkins University Hospital today said six patients are doing well after surgery on Monday, three kidney donors, three recipients, two operating rooms, 11 hours of very tough work, and believe it or not the doctors did it this way all in one day to avoid complications.
And, no, in Nebraska this wasn't a kidney stone, yikes, it is however the largest hail stone on record, nearly 19 inches around. It fell back in June. It took until today to officially make it into the record books and it is and you now know that too.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, can a TV host become a Senator? Candy Crowley looks at the potential candidacy of Jerry Springer.
And up next, the first steps on the road to a possible approval of a gay Episcopal bishop.
Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: To read the biography of Reverend Gene Robinson is to follow a chronology of goodness, virtue, and civic involvement, his work to support clergy wellness, his anti-racism training, his AIDS work in Africa, his help for the uninsured.
It's the last line of his biography that's made him a lightning rod in the meeting of Episcopalian leaders in Minneapolis. It reads like this: "The father of two grown daughters. He lives with his partner, Mark Andrew."
Reverend Gene Robinson, father and gay man, wants to be a bishop and he got closer today, one step, but not without intense debate. Here's CNN's Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are no more seats in the room.
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): So many people showed up for the debate over Reverend Gene Robinson the overflow crowded around hallway monitors to watch.
RUTH KIRK, DIOCESE OF PENNSYLVANIA: The Bible is negative toward same-sex behavior and there is no getting around it.
MARK HOLLINGSWORTH, DIOCESE OF MASSACHUSETTS: Those opposed to Canon Robinson's election are concerned not about preserving unity but about preserving uniformity.
CANDIOTTI: Robinson supporters and detractors tried to influence a committee that approved a resolution to move the debate forward. If hundreds of Episcopal delegates at a convention give their required blessing next week, Robinson would become the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church and the worldwide Anglican faith.
REV. GENE ROBINSON, DIOCESE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: I believe God is calling me to do this thing and I intend to follow it through.
CANDIOTTI (on camera): How confident do you feel that you will be approved?
ROBINSON: Let's just say I'm very, very hopeful.
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Robinson dismisses predictions the Episcopal Church will split over this, members abandoning their faith.
ROBINSON: I think it's important to understand that if someone leaves the church it will be their choice not because anyone has wanted them to leave or asked them to leave or made them leave.
CANDIOTTI: In New Hampshire it's no secret Robinson is involved in a long-term relationship with a man. He understands some may never be comfortable with that. Still, his diocese elected him bishop.
ROBINSON: I'm not the first gay bishop. There have always been gay bishops throughout the church and in every denomination. I'm just the first person talking about it honestly.
CANDIOTTI: During one debate, Robinson's daughter from a previous marriage spoke on his behalf.
ELLA ROBINSON, DAUGHTER: I am proud to share this man with the people of New Hampshire. They will be privileged to call him their bishop as I am privileged and truly blessed to call him dad.
CANDIOTTI: If he is not approved and the debate appears evenly split, Robinson suggests it's just a matter of time.
G. ROBINSON: But I believe in my heart of hearts it's what God wants. And, quite soon, God will have God's way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: Robinson says he is trying his very best to avoid capturing all the attention here, in his words, to make God the headliner. But, quite frankly, it appears to be out of his hands. This is the hottest issue here, Aaron, and it's expected to be decided on Monday.
BROWN: It's decided on Monday there or at the next step?
CANDIOTTI: Here at the convention in Minneapolis. The debate continues in what is called the House of Deputies over the weekend on Saturday and Sunday. And then it will be decided finally by the bishops on Monday.
BROWN: On Monday.
CANDIOTTI: And it must be -- it must be a majority vote.
BROWN: So, one way or another, it is going to end quickly, relatively quickly.
Susan, thank you very much -- Susan Candiotti in the Twin Cities tonight.
An item on the wires caught our eye this afternoon. Jim Traficant, the disgraced former Ohio congressman now doing hard time, or doing time, at least, for bribery, is thinking of running for president. President Traficant. Hmm.
Perhaps there's something about Ohio these days, because another unlikely possible candidate hails from there as well, the talk show host Jerry Springer, who, by the way, used to be a mayor and a TV anchorman. OK, nobody's perfect. He has a week left to decide on the Senate run.
Here is CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JERRY SPRINGER, TALK SHOW HOST: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To run or not to run? That is the question.
CROWD: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
CROWLEY: Name recognition? Check.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We grew up with Jerry Springer. I remember high school, watching him on TV and stuff.
CROWLEY: A third of Ohio voters are Democrats, a third are Republicans, a third are independents.
SPRINGER: Hey, guys. How are you?
CROWLEY: Jerry Springer hopes to form a base with those who don't bother to be anything.
SPRINGER: There are 2. 5 million people here in Ohio that think all politics is bull. They don't believe the Republicans, they don't believe the Democrats, they don't think any politician relates to their needs. Somehow I have a connect with them. But they only vote occasionally.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're great.
SPRINGER: Do you think you're going to, like, register and vote and everything?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure. Yes.
SPRINGER: You would vote for me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I would. What are you running for?
CROWLEY: Financial resources? Check. Even Republicans buy tables to see Springer test-market his politics. Not that he needs the money. The guy made millions of "the show."
Experience? Here the checklist bogs down. Thirty years ago, Springer was a Cincinnati city councilman who resigned in a sex scandal but was later re-elected with enough votes to make him mayor. He also ran unsuccessfully for governor.
Springer is liberal Populist who says one of the things he learned going from poor to rich is that rich people get the breaks.
SPRINGER: I really think regular folks get a raw deal. I'd love to be a fighter for them.
CROWLEY: In the past four months, Springer has visited nearly half of Ohio's 88 counties, talking education, economy, health care.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just think he's, you know, he's representing us for a change instead of someone who is only supporting the people who make lots of money.
MARK NAYMIL, CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER: The show and Jerry Springer as a senator, it don't add up to me. I couldn't see Jerry Springer being a senator.
CROWLEY: And that's the problem. For the last 13 years, there has been "the show."
SPRINGER: My show didn't shut down one school. It didn't close one factory. It didn't...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need to keep saying that too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a theory that nobody will step and share a podium with him. What happens if we have a Democratic presidential candidate coming through Ohio next year? Will they stand next to Jerry? You know, will the taint be there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It's great to see you all.
CROWLEY: Democratic State Senator Eric Fingerhut would face Springer in a primary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we'll lose not only all the independent swing voters and Republican voters, but we'll lost a good part of the Democratic voters, too, who are, frankly, embarrassed and appalled by what Jerry's been doing. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: WTAM 1100, you're on the air.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this man has profited and made millions and millions of dollars by exploiting people and basically ruining a lot of lives.
CROWLEY: It's a riddle, really. How to use the show to bring them in without turning them off.
SPRINGER: If I'll never break through this you know, kind of the uppity show, those people that -- you know, it's that arrogance, but yet I may not be able to break through it.
CROWLEY: We await his final thought.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That will be something.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: How much work is too much and how much is too little? A look at medical residents and new rules that restrict the number of hours they can work.
We'll take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And later on NEWSNIGHT: Just how bad is the movie "Gigli," not to mention morning papers?
Will take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: To those of us who are mere mortals, who don't save lives for a living, the hours demanded of doctors in training always seemed a bit excessive, almost like a hazing. But the truth, of course, is that illness and treatment don't play out on a 9:00-to-5:00 schedule. Long hours means a young doctor can follow a case throughout, from beginning to end.
But they also leave people blurry-eyed and at risk of making tragic mistakes. Last month, new rules took effect in teaching hospitals in the land, trying to balance the need to learn with the need to sleep. We followed a resident at Yale enjoying his new shorter week, 80 hours or so.
A warning: It's a hospital. Some of the pictures are graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they doing an epidural in there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like it. BROWN (voice-over): Doctor Steve Cavic (ph) started his surgical residency in 1997. And after six years, he is finally nearly done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is someone who's coming to us with a problem that can't be fixed by any medicine. And we will bring him here to the operating room. And a few hours from now, hopefully, he'll be cured.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can we begin?
BROWN: Learning the skills to make that happen is a process filled with both tradition and ritual.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nice.
BROWN: But times have changed in America's teaching hospitals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before the changes that occurred here at Yale, we would have had a system where the residents responsible for that particular patient would have been responsible 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cut, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now there's an 80-hour maximum to the work week for all residents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's so much they have to learn. They have to learn not just taking of the patients pre- and post- operatively. They've got to learn the actual skills of learning to be surgeons. And they do that over a period of five clinical years. And, believe it or not, an 80-hour work week is a relatively short period of time to accomplish that task.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a pretty different dissection, because, as you can see, we are very deep in a hole.
BROWN: Dr. Cavic is working with an attending surgeon to remove a tumor from this patient's pancreas. It's a life-threatening procedure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We saw that there was some leakage of the hole near where we removed the tumor. And so what we need to do is to figure out a way to close that hole, so that the pancreas doesn't secrete free into the abdominal cavity.
BROWN: Under the new regulations, Dr. Cavic will go home at the end of this 13-hour day, regardless of the condition of his patient.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, it's better for residents to get more rest. If they are healthier, they are happier people. And they read more, which is part of their training as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, turn this direction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the other hand, there's nothing like a hand on the belly on a serial examination over many hours to see the progression of a disease process. And having somebody new come in at 6:00 or 9:00, it's just not the same hand on the same belly to examine that patient. So there's a trade-off.
BROWN: And it's not the only trade-off. Yale's surgery department had to hire 12 physicians assistants at a cost of $1.5 million to fill in for the absent residents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We give his first dose sometime in the next hour or two.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will put everything in the computer.
BROWN: It is unclear who really pays the price.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: Ben and Jen creating a perfect mess. Just how bad is "Gigli"? The perspective of Harlan Jacobson on bad movies after the break.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It is true, as a wise man once noted, that not every movie can be as bad as "Ishtar." Kevin Costner's "Waterworld" was horrible. It just wasn't as bad as "Ishtar." In my view, just about any movie with George Hamilton is awful, but it's not as awful as "Ishtar." "Ishtar" is the standard against which all bad movies are measured.
And this weekend, we are proud to nominate "Gigli," starring the beautiful Jen and Ben, as one paper put it today, opening to nationwide ridicule. We would like to do to our part.
We asked film critic Harlan Jacobson to look at the art and the lineage of the really, really bad movie.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GIGLI")
JENNIFER LOPEZ, ACTRESS: Look, I am sorry to bother you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLAN JACOBSON, FILM CRITIC (voice-over): "Gigli" is not just a summer movie. It's a bad summer movie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GIGLI")
BEN AFFLECK, ACTOR: Do we know each other?
LOPEZ: Not yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACOBSON (on camera): But what makes a bad movie? Bad direction? Bad money? Bad motives? Bad timing? Maybe the script asks an actor to do something bad, like stretch.
(voice-over): The principal reasons are vanity, or "The public will love whatever I do" syndrome. Lots of examples here: "Ishtar", Kevin Costner's "Waterworld" and his "Postman," ah, and Will Smith in "The Wild, Wild West."
And then there's the lack of friends, or paid friends, managers, script readers, those studio types who can and should tell you to take a cold shower and put that idea in the circular file. Prime examples? 'The Adventures of Pluto Nash," "Howard the Duck." Remember "Joe Vs. the Volcano"?
The worst movies, however, derive from infatuation, where the principals, the directors, the actors, producers, are otherwise romantically involved, as in "Swept Away," where Madonna and husband, Guy Ritchie, let us into their bedroom fantasies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SWEPT AWAY")
MADONNA, ACTRESS: You are so going to regret this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACOBSON: The grandma of them all is "Cleopatra," where Burton and Taylor went crazy mad for each other. This is true on more movies than you may realize, resulting, however, in "Cleopatra," in the biggest flop of all time in constant dollars.
There are lots and lots of really bad movies, of course. And we could go on and on. One final example, consider Tom Cruise. He's coming off "Eyes Wide Shut." It was a horrendous ordeal which he made for Nicole Kidman for the peculiar genius of Stanley Kubrick. Cruise, as you will remember, plays a New York psychiatrist. Now, that's about as believable as Woody Allen cast as Jake La Motta in "Raging Bull."
So what does he make next? Tom Cruise and Penelope Cruz in "Vanilla Sky." You could almost hear him think, see, the thing that's wrong with the previous two stink bombs I made is that I need to work with someone who has a name just like mine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Really bad movies, of course, bring out really sharp daggers from the critics. I think we just heard a few. And here are a few about "Gigli" today: "a formless windbag, a hopelessly conceived exercise in celebrity self-worship, a tangle of badness so thick it's hard to hack your way through."
Harlan Jacobson joins us now to talk more about bad movies. Here's the thing. Well, first of all, have you seen "Gigli"?
JACOBSON: I have.
BROWN: The premise here is, there are two hit people, I guess would be the politically correct way to say that.
JACOBSON: Particularly in this film.
BROWN: Because?
JACOBSON: Because at heart, this is about a male fantasy, overcoming a lesbian's resistance to male charms.
BROWN: She is a lesbian hit woman.
JACOBSON: She is a lesbian hit woman.
BROWN: And his challenge in life is not on kill her, but to obtain her.
JACOBSON: Yes.
BROWN: Yes. Fabulous idea. Is that based on the book "Gigli"?
(LAUGHTER)
JACOBSON: Well, I think there was a long lost Shakespeare manuscript actually that just surfaced, "Gigli," and they've adapted it.
But no, this film, Aaron, is up there in the hit parade of bad movies. I'm not sure that it's the absolutely worst bad movie of all time. There are films like the long forgotten "Savage Love," which George C. Scott made for his new girlfriend Trish Van Devere and which was so bad that he had to not only distribute it himself. He had to sell cans of the movie to the theater owners so that, once they had it, they had to play it.
BROWN: I made it pretty clear that, to me, the biggest waste of my money in my lifetime was "Ishtar." Now, not everyone thinks that's the worst movie. I think everyone would agree it's right there. What's the worst movie you ever saw?
JACOBSON: The worst movie I ever saw? The worst movie I ever saw probably was somewhere between "Showgirls" and "Glitter." There's a certain constancy there.
BROWN: Here is what I have never understood about these truly horrible movies. Every day, the directors and the associate directors and the producers, people who spend a lot of money on this, look at the dailies, the rushes, whatever they call them, and they see this thing. They get to see every day the disaster happening. And doesn't anyone ever say, oh, man, this is horrible what we're doing here?
JACOBSON: Yes, I think they do. I think that, in most of these times, these films are runaway trains. And I think, in some ways, you can almost see what's going on with this film by going into the theater.
There's a set of sneak previews that all come out of Revolution Studios, in association with Columbia, which releases through Loews. So, at some level, whatever the deal is between Revolution Studios and Ben Affleck, it's part of a package that Sony-Columbia is essentially putting it into the theaters. I saw it not with critics, but I saw it with the public.
And that theater, on a Friday night in downtown Manhattan, opened in 180-seat theater in a 14-plex that has 480-seat theaters, which tells you, they know that it's bad. They got it. But it's part of an overall package that they got to pump out there.
BROWN: And so they'll -- the studios and the distributors, they'll sell as many tickets as they can, because some people, well, I think understandably will pay because they like Jen or they like Ben. I mean, they will go see anything they do. And then, before you know it, it'll be on a United flight to Los Angeles or something.
JACOBSON: Probably by tomorrow, actually.
BROWN: Yes.
JACOBSON: But, yes, that's actually just Hollywood economics at this point. In some level, it makes sense to hit and run. I mean, that's what the name of the game is now for the big studios.
The smaller independent films go out in a way that platforms them, that builds their audiences, because they have trouble getting screen time, but, also, they can afford to take that time. They can't do that with a film like this. They've got to take and be scarcer than bandits.
BROWN: Was I too harsh on George Hamilton?
JACOBSON: No, not at all. George Hamilton has made some really terrible films in his life. Maybe -- for all of these folks, there's always a perverse kind of audience that really loves them. They become cult films.
BROWN: I love that part. I love that part.
Thank you. Nice to meet you.
JACOBSON: Good to be here.
BROWN: We'll have you come in and do something more serious, maybe.
Thank you.
JACOBSON: Oh, my.
(LAUGHTER) BROWN: Morning papers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, first of all, just stop sending me e-mails on the rooster. The rooster stays. We paid a lot of money for it. It's cable. It stays. OK.
Morning papers from around the country. They're always kind of weird, Saturday morning's paper. You never know what you are going to get, but here's what we got from Boston "The Boston Herald." "Kerry," as in John Kerry, Senator John Kerry, "Raps Pope, Senator Fuming Over Gay Marriage Order." What particularly seems to upset the senator is the Vatican's instruction to Catholic legislators on how to vote. And he found that troubling.
Also, can you get -- can you see that? Bruce Springsteen working in the Boston area this weekend playing at Gillette stadium. Is that what they used to call the football -- yes? What is that? Well, it's about money. I know exactly what it is about.
"The Washington Times," many good stories on the front page. Remember the last couple of days, they've been running stories about John Edwards not paying his taxes? Karl Rove, too. "Bush Aide Pays His D.C. Taxes Late: Rove's Arrears" -- not easy to say "Come to $4,518." That's on the front page. Unemployment's on the front page as well, and understandably, I think. This is a good story that hasn't been too widely report. "Jeb Bush Scolds White House on Cubans," the 12 Cubans sent back. Governor Bush says that was just not right. Kind of a complicated deal.
"The Oregonian" out West in Portland: "Hoax Suspect" -- the Indianapolis hoax suspect -- "Once Aided FBI in Oregon." Oh, my. Haven't had time to read that. And kind of a cool article in the middle of the front page. "Surfin' Safari," surfers in Oregon. They don't get much warm weather out there for that, but it's probably kind of cool to do.
How much time we got?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty seconds, Mr. Brown.
BROWN: Thirty seconds. That's your debut. That's very good, Terry (ph). Thank you.
"Miami Herald": "Labor Declines For Six Straight Months." And I just think this is a great story. It's a Saturday story. It's obviously not the most important story. "Fashion or Bust?" Kind of clever, trends all about bearing bra straps. When I was a kid, if a girl's bra strap showed, she would just about kill herself. And now she and my daughter and every other kid is out there doing that.
Tiger Woods is on the front page of "The Detroit News and Free Press," combined editions. Everything else seems to have to do with cars. "Carmakers' July Sales." "Executives Looking Into" -- you know, it's the Detroit papers.
Good to have you with us. We'll see you all next week. Have a terrific weekend. And please come back on Monday.
Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Donna Walker in Indiana Reunion Hoax; Debate Over Episcopalian Gay Bishop>
Aired August 1, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
We should perhaps title our lead story tonight Saddam's family values, the softer side of a brutal regime. No one it seems, even Saddam, is one dimensional as we learned from two of his daughters tonight.
To you he was the face of evil. To them he was a kind and loving father. That's a quote, a man with a great big heart, perhaps not a forgiving heart, he did after all have the husbands of his two daughters killed but what family doesn't have a chapter they're not exactly proud of?
The daughters Hussein begin the whip tonight. Jane Arraf landed the interview that made news around the world. She's in Amman, Jane a headline from you.
JANE ARRAF, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Saddam Hussein's daughters in mourning for their brothers say they love their father, they miss their father, and they hope to see him again.
BROWN: Thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.
We'll also have the latest on the hunt for Saddam. Rym Brahimi is in Baghdad working on a satellite problem there.
Of other matters, a court appearance for the woman accused in that horrible hoax aimed at an Indiana family. David Mattingly is in Lebanon, Indiana, David a headline.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the woman accused of making an Indiana family believe in a miracle that wasn't real tonight wonders why she is in jail -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you.
And, on to the controversy over whether an openly gay man will be made an Episcopal bishop. Susan Candiotti worked the story today in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Susan the headline.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. One vote down two more to go for those who support approval of the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church, opponents predict major defections if that happens. Tonight we go one-on-one with Reverend Gene Robinson, that interview coming up. BROWN: Susan, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on this Friday edition of NEWSNIGHT, the days and nights and days and nights of a medical resident, we'll follow one resident just as the new rules take effect cutting back on the hours they must work.
The posters insist the movie is called (unintelligible) but every critic in America seems to be calling it grade A butterball. We'll look at the latest in a long history of Hollywood turkeys with film critic Harlan Jacobson.
And, for those of you who just hate getting ink all over your hands we'll do the dirty work for you. We're a full service outfit here at NEWSNIGHT. It must mean a long-winded way of telling you we'll get to morning papers as well, all of that in the hour ahead.
We begin tonight with a flurry of news from Iraq, starting with new pictures of what Saddam Hussein might now look like. They come from the Defense Department, digital simulations of Saddam with a bear, Saddam wearing a traditional headdress and a beard, the hair is going gray as well, pictures also of Saddam with a full head of gray hair with and without his signature moustache.
Also today a very different portrait emerged from his two daughters that of Saddam the family man, a family that has been under a fair amount of stress lately we suspect.
CNN's Jane Arraf spoke with them in Jordan -- Jane.
ARRAF: Aaron, it certainly was a very different picture of this man than we're used to and the daughters recognize that there is a bit of a discrepancy between the loving father, the man with the big heart who set them on the right road that they describe and the man who was pretty well directly responsible for killing their husbands.
Now, they said in this interview that there were some things that they didn't want to talk about and that one they didn't really want to dwell on except to say their father is in a very difficult position and he would not like to see, in the words of his eldest daughter, his two daughters at war with him.
But despite that they were very clear that their father was a loving man, that there were many good things about him, and they remain close to him. They described it in very emotional terms. The eldest daughter Raghad, 35 years old, the last time she saw him just before the war. Let's listen to that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RAGHAD HUSSEIN, SADDAM HUSSEIN'S DAUGHTER: It was horrible, everybody hugging each other, kissing each other, crying, the kids because there used to be one family. They're almost the same age as their friends and that's it. You can imagine what's happened when you leave your family under big stress.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ARRAF: Now, that was the last time they saw any of their family members and they said they know their father well enough that they're pretty sure he would not have let anyone know where he is, including their mother.
They're hoping to be reunited with their mother. Here whereabouts are unknown at the moment. They are clearly in mourning for their brothers. Another thing they really didn't want to talk about, despite that estranged relationship, they said at the end of the day they were a family -- Aaron.
BROWN: Seriously, Jane, what is it they wanted to get out? What was the message you think that they were trying to send?
ARRAF: They weren't thrilled, first of all, in doing interviews which is why they really didn't do very many. This was the only interview that the two sisters gave together and really what they wanted to get across, and I think what their hosts, the Jordanian royal family, wanted to get across is that these are two quite ordinary women.
Inexplicably for all of their tragic history, something out of a novel, something out of a movie, the dead husbands, they're left widows. They were married at 15. They have nine children between them. Their brothers were killed in a shootout.
For all of that you can see these are normal women with some really admirable qualities. They are not monsters. They spoke of their father as if they had some redeeming qualities -- as if he did.
And, really at the end of it what came across was an impression that these were women who really were worth protecting and that probably was the message that needed to come across. We probably won't be hearing from them for a while. They say they want to resume normal lives. We'll see if they can -- Aaron.
BROWN: They made their way to Jordan I gather with help of some sort from the Americans in Iraq -- correct?
ARRAF: That's unclear. They don't seem to have had a lot of help frankly from the Americans. They had help and support from the Jordanian royal family, the Hashemite family.
These were the people who gave them refuge in 1995 when their husbands, Hussein and Saddam Kamel, Hussein Kamel you'll remember was the one who revealed a lot of secrets from Saddam's weapons programs.
They defected to Jordan, stayed in the palace in 1995, went back a few months later and their husbands were killed but they remember the Hashemites and particularly the people who were sheltering them from then.
Now, a source close to -- a family source close to the daughter says essentially when asked why they let them in again that simply they asked and in Arab tradition if you are particularly women and children and you ask for protection they have to give protection and that's why they're there -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jane, thank you, nice job, Jane Arraf who's in Amman, Jordan tonight.
Two items in the "Washington Post" today, two stories speak volumes. In one, a father kills his son because he believes his son has been working as an informant for the Americans. In the other, a father turns his son over to the Americans because he believes his son has attacked them.
Divided loyalties and mixed feelings are not unusual in Iraq and today they were tested once again. Here's CNN's Rym Brahimi.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BRAHIMI (voice-over): A new audio tape purportedly by Saddam Hussein, this time predicting his return to power.
SADDAM HUSSEIN (through translator): We are confident that the occupying forces will collapse and surrender to the truth and the will of God and that of the people.
BRAHIMI: In a long and rambling audio tape released by the Arab satellite channel Al-Jazeera, the speaker outline his detailed vision for Iraq when, in his words, things return to normal.
HUSSEIN (through translator): We have decided to consider all the missing property of the party and the government a gift to whomever has it. Use it as you see fit.
BRAHIMI: Among those who have heard the latest tape, few doubt that it is Saddam Hussein and fewer believe he'll return to power.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): What are you talking about? He will never come back. He's a fugitive. He's on the run. He's finished.
BRAHIMI: Even after U.S. forces toppled Saddam Hussein's regime in April, it took weeks for most people to rest assured that after nearly 25 years Iraq's strong man had really fallen from power.
Just before the war began, Saddam Hussein reminded Iraqis of how the uprisings that followed the 1991 Gulf War had been dealt with by a brutal repression in the north and south and the killing of thousands who dared oppose his rule. Now, four months into the U.S. occupation of Iraq, the fear instilled in past years has subsided and Iraqis speak out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Ninety percent of the Iraqi people would not welcome Saddam back and should he declare jihad no one would comply.
BRAHIMI: But even as most here relegate Saddam Hussein to the past there are many who see those resisting the U.S. occupation as worthy combatants. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Saddam Hussein is a criminal president and we don't want him here. We want a new government and those who launch attacks against the U.S. forces are true Fedayeen.
BRAHIMI: The slogan of many Iraqis who are disappointed and losing patience with the U.S. authorities in their country, "Neither Saddam nor the U.S."
Rym Brahimi, CNN, Baghdad.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BRAHIMI: Now, as you know Aaron, the U.S. military authorities have said that the Army remains very focused on trying to capture or kill Saddam Hussein. They've launched a series of raids. The question really now is if and when they do capture him will that really impact the situation on the ground -- Aaron.
BROWN: And what is the perception there, will it change the conditions on the ground?
BRAHIMI: Well, again, here opinions are really divided but there does seem to be a sense among most people, Aaron that even if Saddam Hussein were captured a lot of people say well we know he's finished.
That was actually the case already when Uday and Qusay, the two sons of Saddam Hussein, were killed people said well we know that part of our history is over. What we really want now is for the Americans to deliver on the basic services.
And, I know it sounds repetitive because we say this all the time but, again, people come back to the same problem security, electricity, and water -- Aaron.
BROWN: Good to have you with us tonight, thank you, Rym thank you.
Presuming that Saddam Hussein is at some point cornered, presuming too that he is caught and not killed, what then? Joining us from Washington is Diane Orentlicher. She is a professor of international law at American University, good to have you with us.
DIANE ORENTLICHER, PROFESSOR OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: Good to be here.
BROWN: Let's just assume for a second, I don't want to get into a discussion about whether he ought to be taken alive or not be taken alive, let's assume he is taken alive. What ought the purpose of a trial be?
ORENTLICHER: Well, I think it would serve several purposes but perhaps the most important one is that it will be an opportunity for Iraqis at a moment of transformation of their society to affirm what they stand for, to declare that now they stand for fairness and the rule of law and democracy and that's a very powerful answer to the violence and lawlessness of the regime that has just come to an end.
I think there's also just a powerful need for some kind of reckoning with the past. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have suffered unspeakable crimes and they do need an opportunity to confront that.
Finally, I think that simply seeing Saddam Hussein in the dock would have a powerful psychological effect on Iraqi society. It would deflate his mythic grip on the national imagination and I wouldn't underestimate the importance of that.
BROWN: A lot of what you just laid out, I think two of the three, presuppose that the trial itself would take place in Iraq. Is that what you believe will happen?
ORENTLICHER: I do think so and I think it would be quite important that it take place in Iraq. I think having trials outside the country is always the last resort. Bringing justice home enables trials to address the society most affected. It enables victims to participate and it allows an opportunity for ownership of the process by Iraqis.
BROWN: Is it an Iraqi trial or is it an Iraqi-American trial or is it an Iraqi-American-U.N.-international community trial? Whose trial is it?
ORENTLICHER: We don't know that yet. I think it's very important that Iraqis see this process as one in which they play a leading role. On the other hand, there's an obvious problem. The Iraqi justice system has been utterly decimated after years of being subordinated to Saddam's rule.
Now, there are some very fine judges, many of whom retired to avoid being corrupted by his regime, yet undertaking a trial of this magnitude requires enormous resources which would strain any legal system.
And so, I think there's going to need to be some kind of outside support. The United Nations has provided a forum for Iraqis to explore their options and I think that process has to play out a bit more.
BROWN: Is it a Nuremberg-like event?
ORENTLICHER: Well, I think it is in the sense that we're talking about not an ordinary multiple murder trial. Saddam Hussein would be prosecuted if he were captured alive for literally hundreds of thousands of crimes and I think the kind of charge we're thinking of is crimes against humanity, atrocious crimes committed on a staggering scale.
BROWN: And, just I guess as you see this, we don't, none of us knows in fact how this will all play out. Is Saddam sitting there alone or is it Saddam and his inner circle, those people who have been captured? Is it that sort of an event or is it one man, one trial, one jury, one judge, a bunch of lawyers? ORENTLICHER: Certainly not. There obviously will have to be more trials than a trial of just one man. You can't commit crimes on the order we've seen in Iraq without a lot of complicitors.
And so, whether Saddam Hussein faces trial or not clearly other people will but the most recent reports have indicated that the major trials will range perhaps to 200 people.
Trials won't be able to address the enormity of all of the crimes Iraqis have endured and they'll probably have to have wide ranging forms of confronting their past in addition to trial. That will be the beginning of the process.
BROWN: Do you think it will -- I mean this is also just a guess, I mean you don't know any more or better than I on this, do you think it will happen? Do you think there will be a trial?
ORENTLICHER: Well, if you -- I don't have a crystal ball with respect to Saddam Hussein.
BROWN: Yes.
ORENTLICHER: I think it's inevitable that there will be trials. Iraqis desperately need justice and we can all understand that and it's part -- it's an important part of their reconstituting themselves as a country to have trials.
There are going to be in a process of declaring what they stand for as a country and reaffirming the rule of law is going to be an essential turning point for them. So, of course there will be trials.
The U.S. government has been collecting massive documentary evidence of Saddam's crimes for over ten years and so there's going to be staggering evidence and there certainly will be trials but I do think there will be other processes as well.
There may be some kind of truth commission like the sort of commission established in South Africa.
BROWN: South Africa, yes.
ORENTLICHER: Yes and there will be other processes as well.
BROWN: We're not there yet. When we get to that point I assume for someone like you and for someone like me in both of our businesses it will be interesting to watch. Thank you.
ORENTLICHER: Oh, fascinating.
BROWN: Have a nice weekend.
ORENTLICHER: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you, Diane, very much. A few items from around the world before we go to break, we'll start in Korea, North Korea this time and today the country seemed to agree to a six-way talk on its nuclear weapons program. This is a step down, a concession from its earlier demand that it would negotiate only with the United States.
Pyongyang did, however, attach a condition that private meetings be held at some point during the larger talks which would involve China, Japan, and South Korea. The State Department said that's OK, we'll do that.
The U.N. Security Council today approved a resolution to send peacekeeping troops to Liberia, the first batch from nearby Nigeria expected to arrive on Monday. As for when or whether Americans will join them that remains an open question tonight.
And, finally to Russia and bloodshed seemingly over Chechnya, a suicide truck bomber hit a military hospital today on the Chechan border. Russia's Interfax News Agency saying at least 35 people were killed. The Kremlin suspects Chechan rebels. The White House issued a statement condemning the attack as an act of terrorism that no cause whatsoever can justify.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT on a Friday, the latest on the Indianapolis hoax case as the woman accused of making up the story of being a long lost daughter has her first day in court.
And later, is it the new blockbuster of badness, some thoughts on how (unintelligible) fits into Hollywood's history of bombs, a break first.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: If things had gone differently, Mike Sherrill might be spending the weekend with the daughter he lost and then found more than a decade later. Instead, he was back today at his family store in Indiana trying to hold onto the shred of hope that still is left and the woman accused of destroying so much hope was in court and in handcuffs.
Once again, CNN's David Mattingly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): Donna Walker entered a Topeka courtroom handcuffed and in shackles not saying a word and not understanding, according to her attorney, why she's behind bars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does she believe that she has committed a crime?
BILLY RORK, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: To my knowledge based upon the statements we have she still doesn't understand why she is being charged with this. MATTINGLY: Walker has said that she's had phone conversations with the Sherrill family of Indiana and that she was only helping with the investigation into the 17-year-long disappearance of little Shannon Sherrill but nothing from Walker about the accusations that she posed as Shannon and orchestrated what Indiana authorities call a cruel hoax.
TODD MEYERS, BOONE COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Clearly, I wouldn't have filed charges unless I felt that she'd broken the law.
MATTINGLY: Mike Sherrill, who was publicly devastated by the deception, back at work today tending to customers at the family store and worried that his alleged tormenter might one day hurt someone else.
MIKE SHERRILL, SHANNON'S FATHER: She definitely does have a problem. Why make it everybody else's problem. Put her away where nobody can -- she can deal with her own problem in her own way.
MATTINGLY: A Topeka judge revealed a litany of concerns about Walker's mental health, that she's had multiple stays in a state mental hospital with ongoing treatment by a local psychiatrist and psychologist. Her attorney is now preparing a fight to keep her in Kansas and out of an Indiana courtroom.
RORK: But I haven't been convinced a crime has occurred. I think there are some tragedies that have occurred and some very emotional circumstances that occurred but whether that's a crime, that hasn't been determined yet.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: If Donna Walker does manage to make bail there will be some restrictions. Among them she will not be allowed to leave town and she will not be allowed to use the telephone -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, I apologize. If you said it I missed it. How much is the bail she is being held on?
MATTINGLY: A hundred thousand dollars and the judge admitted that was a little high but because of his concerns about the possibility that she might be a flight risk he felt like it was justified.
BROWN: It's quite high under the circumstances of what she is accused of, fair?
MATTINGLY: That is correct. In fact, her attorney made the point that there are some people up on murder charges who do not have bail set quite so high.
BROWN: David, thank you very much, David Mattingly in Indiana tonight.
A few more items from around the country starting on a pond or in a pond in the Maryland suburbs just outside of Washington, D.C., well it used to be a pond. The FBI drained it in search of clues to the anthrax killer.
It's near both the bioweapons lab at Fort Dietrich, Maryland and the former home of Dr. Stephen Hatfill, the FBI's so-called person of interest. Well, they drained it, about a million and a half gallons of water. They were looking for spores or lab equipment and things like that. Instead, they found what one law enforcement official today called a lot of junk.
Next to Baltimore and a medical feat that is also quite a logistical accomplishment, doctors at Johns Hopkins University Hospital today said six patients are doing well after surgery on Monday, three kidney donors, three recipients, two operating rooms, 11 hours of very tough work, and believe it or not the doctors did it this way all in one day to avoid complications.
And, no, in Nebraska this wasn't a kidney stone, yikes, it is however the largest hail stone on record, nearly 19 inches around. It fell back in June. It took until today to officially make it into the record books and it is and you now know that too.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, can a TV host become a Senator? Candy Crowley looks at the potential candidacy of Jerry Springer.
And up next, the first steps on the road to a possible approval of a gay Episcopal bishop.
Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: To read the biography of Reverend Gene Robinson is to follow a chronology of goodness, virtue, and civic involvement, his work to support clergy wellness, his anti-racism training, his AIDS work in Africa, his help for the uninsured.
It's the last line of his biography that's made him a lightning rod in the meeting of Episcopalian leaders in Minneapolis. It reads like this: "The father of two grown daughters. He lives with his partner, Mark Andrew."
Reverend Gene Robinson, father and gay man, wants to be a bishop and he got closer today, one step, but not without intense debate. Here's CNN's Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There are no more seats in the room.
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): So many people showed up for the debate over Reverend Gene Robinson the overflow crowded around hallway monitors to watch.
RUTH KIRK, DIOCESE OF PENNSYLVANIA: The Bible is negative toward same-sex behavior and there is no getting around it.
MARK HOLLINGSWORTH, DIOCESE OF MASSACHUSETTS: Those opposed to Canon Robinson's election are concerned not about preserving unity but about preserving uniformity.
CANDIOTTI: Robinson supporters and detractors tried to influence a committee that approved a resolution to move the debate forward. If hundreds of Episcopal delegates at a convention give their required blessing next week, Robinson would become the first openly gay bishop in the Episcopal Church and the worldwide Anglican faith.
REV. GENE ROBINSON, DIOCESE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: I believe God is calling me to do this thing and I intend to follow it through.
CANDIOTTI (on camera): How confident do you feel that you will be approved?
ROBINSON: Let's just say I'm very, very hopeful.
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Robinson dismisses predictions the Episcopal Church will split over this, members abandoning their faith.
ROBINSON: I think it's important to understand that if someone leaves the church it will be their choice not because anyone has wanted them to leave or asked them to leave or made them leave.
CANDIOTTI: In New Hampshire it's no secret Robinson is involved in a long-term relationship with a man. He understands some may never be comfortable with that. Still, his diocese elected him bishop.
ROBINSON: I'm not the first gay bishop. There have always been gay bishops throughout the church and in every denomination. I'm just the first person talking about it honestly.
CANDIOTTI: During one debate, Robinson's daughter from a previous marriage spoke on his behalf.
ELLA ROBINSON, DAUGHTER: I am proud to share this man with the people of New Hampshire. They will be privileged to call him their bishop as I am privileged and truly blessed to call him dad.
CANDIOTTI: If he is not approved and the debate appears evenly split, Robinson suggests it's just a matter of time.
G. ROBINSON: But I believe in my heart of hearts it's what God wants. And, quite soon, God will have God's way.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: Robinson says he is trying his very best to avoid capturing all the attention here, in his words, to make God the headliner. But, quite frankly, it appears to be out of his hands. This is the hottest issue here, Aaron, and it's expected to be decided on Monday.
BROWN: It's decided on Monday there or at the next step?
CANDIOTTI: Here at the convention in Minneapolis. The debate continues in what is called the House of Deputies over the weekend on Saturday and Sunday. And then it will be decided finally by the bishops on Monday.
BROWN: On Monday.
CANDIOTTI: And it must be -- it must be a majority vote.
BROWN: So, one way or another, it is going to end quickly, relatively quickly.
Susan, thank you very much -- Susan Candiotti in the Twin Cities tonight.
An item on the wires caught our eye this afternoon. Jim Traficant, the disgraced former Ohio congressman now doing hard time, or doing time, at least, for bribery, is thinking of running for president. President Traficant. Hmm.
Perhaps there's something about Ohio these days, because another unlikely possible candidate hails from there as well, the talk show host Jerry Springer, who, by the way, used to be a mayor and a TV anchorman. OK, nobody's perfect. He has a week left to decide on the Senate run.
Here is CNN's Candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JERRY SPRINGER, TALK SHOW HOST: Hi.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you?
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): To run or not to run? That is the question.
CROWD: Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
CROWLEY: Name recognition? Check.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We grew up with Jerry Springer. I remember high school, watching him on TV and stuff.
CROWLEY: A third of Ohio voters are Democrats, a third are Republicans, a third are independents.
SPRINGER: Hey, guys. How are you?
CROWLEY: Jerry Springer hopes to form a base with those who don't bother to be anything.
SPRINGER: There are 2. 5 million people here in Ohio that think all politics is bull. They don't believe the Republicans, they don't believe the Democrats, they don't think any politician relates to their needs. Somehow I have a connect with them. But they only vote occasionally.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're great.
SPRINGER: Do you think you're going to, like, register and vote and everything?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sure. Yes.
SPRINGER: You would vote for me?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I would. What are you running for?
CROWLEY: Financial resources? Check. Even Republicans buy tables to see Springer test-market his politics. Not that he needs the money. The guy made millions of "the show."
Experience? Here the checklist bogs down. Thirty years ago, Springer was a Cincinnati city councilman who resigned in a sex scandal but was later re-elected with enough votes to make him mayor. He also ran unsuccessfully for governor.
Springer is liberal Populist who says one of the things he learned going from poor to rich is that rich people get the breaks.
SPRINGER: I really think regular folks get a raw deal. I'd love to be a fighter for them.
CROWLEY: In the past four months, Springer has visited nearly half of Ohio's 88 counties, talking education, economy, health care.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just think he's, you know, he's representing us for a change instead of someone who is only supporting the people who make lots of money.
MARK NAYMIL, CLEVELAND PLAIN DEALER: The show and Jerry Springer as a senator, it don't add up to me. I couldn't see Jerry Springer being a senator.
CROWLEY: And that's the problem. For the last 13 years, there has been "the show."
SPRINGER: My show didn't shut down one school. It didn't close one factory. It didn't...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You need to keep saying that too.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a theory that nobody will step and share a podium with him. What happens if we have a Democratic presidential candidate coming through Ohio next year? Will they stand next to Jerry? You know, will the taint be there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. It's great to see you all.
CROWLEY: Democratic State Senator Eric Fingerhut would face Springer in a primary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think we'll lose not only all the independent swing voters and Republican voters, but we'll lost a good part of the Democratic voters, too, who are, frankly, embarrassed and appalled by what Jerry's been doing. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: WTAM 1100, you're on the air.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, this man has profited and made millions and millions of dollars by exploiting people and basically ruining a lot of lives.
CROWLEY: It's a riddle, really. How to use the show to bring them in without turning them off.
SPRINGER: If I'll never break through this you know, kind of the uppity show, those people that -- you know, it's that arrogance, but yet I may not be able to break through it.
CROWLEY: We await his final thought.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: That will be something.
Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: How much work is too much and how much is too little? A look at medical residents and new rules that restrict the number of hours they can work.
We'll take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And later on NEWSNIGHT: Just how bad is the movie "Gigli," not to mention morning papers?
Will take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: To those of us who are mere mortals, who don't save lives for a living, the hours demanded of doctors in training always seemed a bit excessive, almost like a hazing. But the truth, of course, is that illness and treatment don't play out on a 9:00-to-5:00 schedule. Long hours means a young doctor can follow a case throughout, from beginning to end.
But they also leave people blurry-eyed and at risk of making tragic mistakes. Last month, new rules took effect in teaching hospitals in the land, trying to balance the need to learn with the need to sleep. We followed a resident at Yale enjoying his new shorter week, 80 hours or so.
A warning: It's a hospital. Some of the pictures are graphic.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are they doing an epidural in there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like it. BROWN (voice-over): Doctor Steve Cavic (ph) started his surgical residency in 1997. And after six years, he is finally nearly done.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is someone who's coming to us with a problem that can't be fixed by any medicine. And we will bring him here to the operating room. And a few hours from now, hopefully, he'll be cured.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can we begin?
BROWN: Learning the skills to make that happen is a process filled with both tradition and ritual.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nice.
BROWN: But times have changed in America's teaching hospitals.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Before the changes that occurred here at Yale, we would have had a system where the residents responsible for that particular patient would have been responsible 24 hours a day, seven days a week.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cut, please.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now there's an 80-hour maximum to the work week for all residents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's so much they have to learn. They have to learn not just taking of the patients pre- and post- operatively. They've got to learn the actual skills of learning to be surgeons. And they do that over a period of five clinical years. And, believe it or not, an 80-hour work week is a relatively short period of time to accomplish that task.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is a pretty different dissection, because, as you can see, we are very deep in a hole.
BROWN: Dr. Cavic is working with an attending surgeon to remove a tumor from this patient's pancreas. It's a life-threatening procedure.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We saw that there was some leakage of the hole near where we removed the tumor. And so what we need to do is to figure out a way to close that hole, so that the pancreas doesn't secrete free into the abdominal cavity.
BROWN: Under the new regulations, Dr. Cavic will go home at the end of this 13-hour day, regardless of the condition of his patient.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, it's better for residents to get more rest. If they are healthier, they are happier people. And they read more, which is part of their training as well.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, turn this direction.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the other hand, there's nothing like a hand on the belly on a serial examination over many hours to see the progression of a disease process. And having somebody new come in at 6:00 or 9:00, it's just not the same hand on the same belly to examine that patient. So there's a trade-off.
BROWN: And it's not the only trade-off. Yale's surgery department had to hire 12 physicians assistants at a cost of $1.5 million to fill in for the absent residents.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We give his first dose sometime in the next hour or two.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We will put everything in the computer.
BROWN: It is unclear who really pays the price.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: Ben and Jen creating a perfect mess. Just how bad is "Gigli"? The perspective of Harlan Jacobson on bad movies after the break.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It is true, as a wise man once noted, that not every movie can be as bad as "Ishtar." Kevin Costner's "Waterworld" was horrible. It just wasn't as bad as "Ishtar." In my view, just about any movie with George Hamilton is awful, but it's not as awful as "Ishtar." "Ishtar" is the standard against which all bad movies are measured.
And this weekend, we are proud to nominate "Gigli," starring the beautiful Jen and Ben, as one paper put it today, opening to nationwide ridicule. We would like to do to our part.
We asked film critic Harlan Jacobson to look at the art and the lineage of the really, really bad movie.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GIGLI")
JENNIFER LOPEZ, ACTRESS: Look, I am sorry to bother you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLAN JACOBSON, FILM CRITIC (voice-over): "Gigli" is not just a summer movie. It's a bad summer movie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "GIGLI")
BEN AFFLECK, ACTOR: Do we know each other?
LOPEZ: Not yet.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACOBSON (on camera): But what makes a bad movie? Bad direction? Bad money? Bad motives? Bad timing? Maybe the script asks an actor to do something bad, like stretch.
(voice-over): The principal reasons are vanity, or "The public will love whatever I do" syndrome. Lots of examples here: "Ishtar", Kevin Costner's "Waterworld" and his "Postman," ah, and Will Smith in "The Wild, Wild West."
And then there's the lack of friends, or paid friends, managers, script readers, those studio types who can and should tell you to take a cold shower and put that idea in the circular file. Prime examples? 'The Adventures of Pluto Nash," "Howard the Duck." Remember "Joe Vs. the Volcano"?
The worst movies, however, derive from infatuation, where the principals, the directors, the actors, producers, are otherwise romantically involved, as in "Swept Away," where Madonna and husband, Guy Ritchie, let us into their bedroom fantasies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "SWEPT AWAY")
MADONNA, ACTRESS: You are so going to regret this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JACOBSON: The grandma of them all is "Cleopatra," where Burton and Taylor went crazy mad for each other. This is true on more movies than you may realize, resulting, however, in "Cleopatra," in the biggest flop of all time in constant dollars.
There are lots and lots of really bad movies, of course. And we could go on and on. One final example, consider Tom Cruise. He's coming off "Eyes Wide Shut." It was a horrendous ordeal which he made for Nicole Kidman for the peculiar genius of Stanley Kubrick. Cruise, as you will remember, plays a New York psychiatrist. Now, that's about as believable as Woody Allen cast as Jake La Motta in "Raging Bull."
So what does he make next? Tom Cruise and Penelope Cruz in "Vanilla Sky." You could almost hear him think, see, the thing that's wrong with the previous two stink bombs I made is that I need to work with someone who has a name just like mine.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Really bad movies, of course, bring out really sharp daggers from the critics. I think we just heard a few. And here are a few about "Gigli" today: "a formless windbag, a hopelessly conceived exercise in celebrity self-worship, a tangle of badness so thick it's hard to hack your way through."
Harlan Jacobson joins us now to talk more about bad movies. Here's the thing. Well, first of all, have you seen "Gigli"?
JACOBSON: I have.
BROWN: The premise here is, there are two hit people, I guess would be the politically correct way to say that.
JACOBSON: Particularly in this film.
BROWN: Because?
JACOBSON: Because at heart, this is about a male fantasy, overcoming a lesbian's resistance to male charms.
BROWN: She is a lesbian hit woman.
JACOBSON: She is a lesbian hit woman.
BROWN: And his challenge in life is not on kill her, but to obtain her.
JACOBSON: Yes.
BROWN: Yes. Fabulous idea. Is that based on the book "Gigli"?
(LAUGHTER)
JACOBSON: Well, I think there was a long lost Shakespeare manuscript actually that just surfaced, "Gigli," and they've adapted it.
But no, this film, Aaron, is up there in the hit parade of bad movies. I'm not sure that it's the absolutely worst bad movie of all time. There are films like the long forgotten "Savage Love," which George C. Scott made for his new girlfriend Trish Van Devere and which was so bad that he had to not only distribute it himself. He had to sell cans of the movie to the theater owners so that, once they had it, they had to play it.
BROWN: I made it pretty clear that, to me, the biggest waste of my money in my lifetime was "Ishtar." Now, not everyone thinks that's the worst movie. I think everyone would agree it's right there. What's the worst movie you ever saw?
JACOBSON: The worst movie I ever saw? The worst movie I ever saw probably was somewhere between "Showgirls" and "Glitter." There's a certain constancy there.
BROWN: Here is what I have never understood about these truly horrible movies. Every day, the directors and the associate directors and the producers, people who spend a lot of money on this, look at the dailies, the rushes, whatever they call them, and they see this thing. They get to see every day the disaster happening. And doesn't anyone ever say, oh, man, this is horrible what we're doing here?
JACOBSON: Yes, I think they do. I think that, in most of these times, these films are runaway trains. And I think, in some ways, you can almost see what's going on with this film by going into the theater.
There's a set of sneak previews that all come out of Revolution Studios, in association with Columbia, which releases through Loews. So, at some level, whatever the deal is between Revolution Studios and Ben Affleck, it's part of a package that Sony-Columbia is essentially putting it into the theaters. I saw it not with critics, but I saw it with the public.
And that theater, on a Friday night in downtown Manhattan, opened in 180-seat theater in a 14-plex that has 480-seat theaters, which tells you, they know that it's bad. They got it. But it's part of an overall package that they got to pump out there.
BROWN: And so they'll -- the studios and the distributors, they'll sell as many tickets as they can, because some people, well, I think understandably will pay because they like Jen or they like Ben. I mean, they will go see anything they do. And then, before you know it, it'll be on a United flight to Los Angeles or something.
JACOBSON: Probably by tomorrow, actually.
BROWN: Yes.
JACOBSON: But, yes, that's actually just Hollywood economics at this point. In some level, it makes sense to hit and run. I mean, that's what the name of the game is now for the big studios.
The smaller independent films go out in a way that platforms them, that builds their audiences, because they have trouble getting screen time, but, also, they can afford to take that time. They can't do that with a film like this. They've got to take and be scarcer than bandits.
BROWN: Was I too harsh on George Hamilton?
JACOBSON: No, not at all. George Hamilton has made some really terrible films in his life. Maybe -- for all of these folks, there's always a perverse kind of audience that really loves them. They become cult films.
BROWN: I love that part. I love that part.
Thank you. Nice to meet you.
JACOBSON: Good to be here.
BROWN: We'll have you come in and do something more serious, maybe.
Thank you.
JACOBSON: Oh, my.
(LAUGHTER) BROWN: Morning papers after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: OK, first of all, just stop sending me e-mails on the rooster. The rooster stays. We paid a lot of money for it. It's cable. It stays. OK.
Morning papers from around the country. They're always kind of weird, Saturday morning's paper. You never know what you are going to get, but here's what we got from Boston "The Boston Herald." "Kerry," as in John Kerry, Senator John Kerry, "Raps Pope, Senator Fuming Over Gay Marriage Order." What particularly seems to upset the senator is the Vatican's instruction to Catholic legislators on how to vote. And he found that troubling.
Also, can you get -- can you see that? Bruce Springsteen working in the Boston area this weekend playing at Gillette stadium. Is that what they used to call the football -- yes? What is that? Well, it's about money. I know exactly what it is about.
"The Washington Times," many good stories on the front page. Remember the last couple of days, they've been running stories about John Edwards not paying his taxes? Karl Rove, too. "Bush Aide Pays His D.C. Taxes Late: Rove's Arrears" -- not easy to say "Come to $4,518." That's on the front page. Unemployment's on the front page as well, and understandably, I think. This is a good story that hasn't been too widely report. "Jeb Bush Scolds White House on Cubans," the 12 Cubans sent back. Governor Bush says that was just not right. Kind of a complicated deal.
"The Oregonian" out West in Portland: "Hoax Suspect" -- the Indianapolis hoax suspect -- "Once Aided FBI in Oregon." Oh, my. Haven't had time to read that. And kind of a cool article in the middle of the front page. "Surfin' Safari," surfers in Oregon. They don't get much warm weather out there for that, but it's probably kind of cool to do.
How much time we got?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty seconds, Mr. Brown.
BROWN: Thirty seconds. That's your debut. That's very good, Terry (ph). Thank you.
"Miami Herald": "Labor Declines For Six Straight Months." And I just think this is a great story. It's a Saturday story. It's obviously not the most important story. "Fashion or Bust?" Kind of clever, trends all about bearing bra straps. When I was a kid, if a girl's bra strap showed, she would just about kill herself. And now she and my daughter and every other kid is out there doing that.
Tiger Woods is on the front page of "The Detroit News and Free Press," combined editions. Everything else seems to have to do with cars. "Carmakers' July Sales." "Executives Looking Into" -- you know, it's the Detroit papers.
Good to have you with us. We'll see you all next week. Have a terrific weekend. And please come back on Monday.
Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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Donna Walker in Indiana Reunion Hoax; Debate Over Episcopalian Gay Bishop>
