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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Robinson Ratified as Bishop; JI Possibly Responsible for Bombing in Jakarta; Residents of Anniston, Alabama Prepare for the Worst
Aired August 05, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
As sometimes is the case, an important decision is not the end of something but simply the beginning. Take the vote today by Episcopalian leaders on elevating the Reverend Gene Robinson to the post of bishop. Well, the change today was the vote. The story in many ways is about tomorrow.
What will be the result? Will there be a serious split in the church for starters? Or, perhaps it will work another way, might it make it easier for other churches to take on this difficult issue of openly gay clergy?
We can't know the answers tonight, though we'll sort through some of the clues. What we can know about is the vote and how it came to be and it's where we begin the whip tonight. CNN's Susan Candiotti has all the details from Minneapolis, Susan a headline please.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. It is a day of history for the U.S. Episcopal Church and depending on how you look at the outcome it is either a day to celebrate or, for many, a day to despair -- back to you.
BROWN: Susan we'll get to you at the top tonight.
On to a deadly terrorist attack in Jakarta, Indonesia today, Maria Ressa following that, Maria your headline.
MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, an explosion in the financial district of Jakarta, an American chain the Marriott Hotel. Authorities say the bomb is similar to the blast in Bali last year which killed more than 200 people in an attack claimed by al Qaeda -- back to you.
BROWN: Thank you, we'll get back to you too pretty quickly.
The latest now on the plan by the Army to destroy chemical weapons that date back to the Cold War in one Alabama town, David Mattingly is in Anniston, Alabama, David the headline.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, gas masks and duct tape, in Anniston, Alabama, that is the proverbial ounce of prevention -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you.
And, finally, the fate of two former America West airline pilots accused of trying to fly last year after drinking. John Zarrella is on that from Miami, John your headline.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, a federal judge has ruled that the state of Florida has no jurisdiction to charge the pilots in a criminal case here in Florida. The judge ruled that federal law takes jurisdiction at least in this case.
BROWN: And, there's even a twist to that, John back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, was a recent fire in San Diego the work of terrorists? The suspects here aren't al Qaeda but radical environmentalists. A message was found at the scene that said, "If you build it we will burn it."
We'll also tonight talk with the comedian Bill Maher. We got an e-mail today saying why are you having him on? Then we got another one saying why haven't you had him on sooner? Hum. Love him or hate him he gets people talking which is a pretty good guest to us.
And, give us two and a half minutes and we'll give you the world. Okay, that's someone else's slogan but the segment we promise is ours and ours alone, NEWSNIGHT's on look at tomorrow morning's paper tonight, all that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin in Minneapolis at one of those sobering moments when the news of the day and history collide. The headline, of course, is the confirmation of an openly gay man as a bishop in the American Episcopal Church.
The history is yet to be fully written but events today make up the first sentence of the first chapter in that story that may end in a radically different church or, perhaps, a church split in two.
Susan Candiotti has just finished an interview with Reverend Gene Robinson soon to become formally Bishop Robinson, Susan good evening.
CANDIOTTI: Good evening, Aaron.
You might say or might think that Reverend Gene Robinson would be terribly excited, barely able to sit still after what for him is an historic day and for the church as well but he said he had a sense of calm and never any second thoughts about what was to happen this day. I spoke with him just moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BISHOP GENE ROBINSON, NEW HAMPSHIRE: It's been a long time in coming. It's not so much a dream as a calling from God and I'm really thrilled to be on my way to being the Bishop of New Hampshire.
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Do you feel as though you are now still in a firestorm? You have people now who are saying that you have indeed shattered the church and you will cause a divide that is irreparable possibly.
ROBINSON: Time will tell. I firmly believe that we can hold together as we have held together over many controversies in the Anglican Communion and in the Episcopal Church and I'm really confident that God will see us through.
CANDIOTTI: What does this ratification mean?
ROBINSON: Well, it means that...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All in favor of concurrence please say aye.
AUDIENCE: Aye.
CANDIOTTI: A majority of Episcopal bishops ratified his election making Gene Robinson the first openly gay bishop in the worldwide Anglican family. But after a prayer service, prearranged by Robinson's opponents, they warned a threat of schism now looms over the Episcopal Church.
REV. KENDALL HARMON, EPISCOPALIAN CHURCH: I'm very broken hearted. I mean, I think devastated is not too strong a word for not only how I feel but how so many Episcopalians feel.
CANDIOTTI: Bishops resume their debate over Robinson after an investigation cleared him of sexual related accusations. To many the last minute allegations appeared suspect from the start yet supporters and critics of the priest said they had to be addressed.
In what most saw as the more serious of the two issues, David Lewis of Vermont sent an e-mail to the bishops claiming the priest touched him inappropriately during a public prayer meeting.
BISHOP GORDON SCRUTON, EPISCOPALIAN CHURCH: Canon Robinson put his left hand on the individual's arm and his right hand on the individual's upper back as he listened to his questions and answered them. I asked him whether he wanted to bring a formal charge of harassment. He said very clearly no. He regretted having used the word harassment in his e-mail.
CANDIOTTI: Some bishops said they found the allegation about inappropriate touching sin from the start.
RODNEY MICHEL, DIOCESE OF NEW YORK: Look around at all of the thousands of people who are here really would probably be guilty of that.
CANDIOTTI: Church officials say the man told them he was grateful the church listened to him.
Investigators also said they could find no connection between Robinson and pornographic Web site.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: Reverend Gene Robinson, now Bishop-elect Gene Robinson, he will be ratified in November. He says he's not bitter, not angry over the allegations. He simply wants to be the best bishop he can be to the people of New Hampshire and to the entire Episcopal Church. The question is where does the church go from here -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, we'll get to that in a second. For right now, I'm curious on where the opponents go from here. Is it over for them or do they have options?
CANDIOTTI: Well, certainly, they do intend to bring this, they said, before all of the primates of the Anglican community and hope that there will be some consideration to see how the Anglican community plans to treat this.
There is a possibility of a split. They talk about also the possibility of reconciliation but this is a very unhappy group of people this night. I asked what they thought about the investigation, for example, and they said well if the bishop did what he said he did then they find no quarrel with that, unclear what that's supposed to mean.
BROWN: Susan, thank you very much. It's been an interesting week for you in Minneapolis. Thank you.
With us now, Peter Steinfels whose writing on religion and the question of faith or questions of faith appear often in the pages of "The New York Times," also the author of "A People Adrift: The Crisis in the Roman Catholic Church in America," and it's nice to have you with us.
Walk me through something I just simply don't know the answer to. To what extent is there a pope-like figure in the Anglican Church who can say, no, you can't do that?
PETER STEINFELS, BELIEFS COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK TIMES": The answer is no. There is, of course the Archbishop of Canterbury.
BROWN: Right.
STEINFELS: Who holds a position of honor and primacy and is a symbol of unity for I think it's over three dozen different regional and national Anglican churches around the world.
Secondly, there is a gathering that takes place every ten years of Anglican bishops from those churches around the world that's called the Lambeth Conference and in, I think it was the 1998 meeting they passed a non-binding resolution indicating that they felt that homosexual relations were incompatible with the church's teachings.
But it is non-binding and that's the question, what will happen with that loose federation of churches around and the world and the answer is there is no one or no group that can make a final decision in the sense, in the way that the pope can.
BROWN: Why of all of the possible issues that could split a church, there are lots of them out there it seems to me, why is this issue so difficult perhaps for all of us in some respects but for the church in this case?
STEINFELS: I think it's because it's not really just an issue about homosexuality. It is, of course, an issue about homosexuality but, beyond that, it is an issue that raises questions about a whole range of matters of sexual ethics and morality.
What is the basis for people's belief about marriage, fidelity, cohabitation, all those things? Is it the Bible? It is contemporary social science? Is it personal experience?
And, that's the one part that it stretches out to an immense question and that's why everybody gets so upset about it. They try and take it just as a part and they end up having to look at this whole range of issues.
BROWN: Does what happened in Minneapolis this week in some respects reflect the Episcopalian Church itself which, in some respects and in some places, is quite conservative? I lived in Seattle for a long time. One of the most liberal churches in Seattle was an Episcopalian Church. The church itself seems to not be of one thought.
STEINFELS: I think it reflects the Episcopal Church in the sense that from its very beginnings its had different strands of thought. It had -- from the reformation era it had a strong Protestant strand and it also had a strong Catholic strand and these two strands have learned to live together in many ways.
So, that's meant that it didn't split in the way that a lot of other churches did. They kept things within their ranks and my bet is that the American Episcopal Church, although it will suffer some losses and a great deal of agony because of this, will in fact not split in the way other churches have.
BROWN: I want to make sure I understand what you said that the American church itself or the American branch will not split does that mean also that the American branch will not split from the broader Anglican community?
STEINFELS: I think that that's much more up in the air and it isn't a question of the Americans versus everybody else. It's a number of the more liberal churches I'd say across the Atlantic from England to Canada to the United States and their relations, in particular with a number of third world countries that have much more conservative views on this matter.
BROWN: Just a final question. Give me a sense of the historic import of the moment today.
STEINFELS: I think it's a major development which is going to push forward this issue and a lot of related issues about sexuality in a lot of other churches and it will be interesting to see whether they respond by hardening their positions, taking as we saw in a kind of preemptive act a statement from the Vatican a week ago or whether they'll look to see what the Episcopal Church has done and say, well, maybe we don't agree but we may adapt. We can move to maybe a closer position.
BROWN: I'm going to drive them crazy in the booth here but it is always harder, it seems to me, in anything to be the first.
STEINFELS: Yes.
BROWN: In some respects it might be easier for other churches should they be so inclined to take this step.
STEINFELS: That will take a while. My guess is that the immediate effect will be to make the conflicts sharper and deeper.
BROWN: Thanks for coming in. It's very helpful to me.
STEINFELS: Glad to be here.
BROWN: Thank you very much.
On to other news of the day, in Indonesia first, it became clear again today that along with Americans, American economic influence is being targeted around the world by terrorists. The latest evidence found in the rubble of the J.W. Marriott Hotel or what was one in Jakarta.
A car bomber struck there this afternoon, more than a dozen people dead. While no one has formally come forward to claim responsibility for the attack it bears many of the markings of a shadowy radical Islamic group that caused so much carnage last fall in Bali.
Here again, CNN's Maria Ressa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RESSA (voice-over): Police say a car loaded with explosives drove through the taxi stand in front of the Marriott Hotel and kept heading straight for the lobby. That was when the bomb detonated, its blast radius visible along the shattered windows of nearby buildings.
The Indonesian police chief said the bomb was similar to the ones used in Bali last year an attack which killed more than 200 people and was blamed on the group Jemaah Islamiyah or JI.
ROHAN GUNARATNA, AL QAEDA EXPERT: JI is an al Qaeda Southeast Asian Army. JI is an independent group but because al Qaeda has corrupted the JI operational leadership, JI is also functioning as an extended arm of al Qaeda.
RESSA: Since November, police here have arrested more than 40 suspected JI members, part of nearly 200 arrested in Southeast Asia but that hasn't stopped JI's ability to plan and carry out more attacks. Besides Tuesday's blast, authorities have connected JI to other explosions recently in the Philippines and Indonesia.
SIDNEY JONES, INDONESIAN CRISIS GROUP: I don't think anybody knows what kind of a dent they've made in the organization. That's part of the problem is that nobody has a clue of how extensive this network actually is.
RESSA: Earlier, authorities in the region have warned of more, perhaps larger, attacks after a top JI operative escaped from a Philippine jail last month and weapons and explosives were recently discovered hidden in Indonesia and the Philippines. Add to that the fact the first verdict in the Bali trials is expected Thursday.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RESSA: Police say arrests in recent weeks show that instead of hiding, JI operatives had actually been raising money and preparing for future attacks. The Marriott was the prime target, packed lunchtime crowd, a favorite of expatriates and diplomats. Intelligence officials tell us they fear that it could be followed by other similar attacks -- back to you, Aaron.
BROWN: Maria, thank you very much, Maria Ressa in Jakarta today.
On to Liberia next where a team of U.S. military personnel, U.S. military personnel will arrive tomorrow to help assess the needs of the West African peacekeepers who began arriving yesterday.
The pictures we saw of that arrival of Liberians celebrating, of soldiers hoisted up on shoulders, shouldn't give a false impression that this is going to be easy work. Peacekeeping is messy. It is a dangerous business. It means getting in the middle of a brutal war, sometimes literally so.
A CNN crew traveled with the peacekeepers today crossing from government-held territory to the rebel lines dealing with the issues, the promises, the disappointments and the frustrations.
The day is reported in this exclusive report by CNN's Jeff Koinange.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Marching to the beat these are LURD rebels, an acronym for Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy. They are responsible for waging war on embattled President Charles Taylor finally forcing him to step down.
They have all but overrun the capital, Monrovia, but failed to secure this key bridge. On this side, government troops, they refuse to allow any traffic to cross.
Enter the West African peacekeepers. They need control of the bridge to the seaport to bring in relief supplies. Accompanied by U.S. Ambassador John Blaney, the peacekeepers make their way first to the government command post. After meeting the general they are given permission to cross.
At the halfway mark, the government troops retreat and the convoy proceeds gingerly into LURD territory. A rebel waves a white flag, a sign the convoy has successfully crossed. The guests are received and escorted under guard to a temporary rebel headquarters, more roadblocks along the way to meet the rebel general.
COL. SUE ANN SANDUSKY, U.S. MILITARY ATTACHE: We'd like to proceed to the port to have a little chat, okay? We'll follow.
KOINANGE: Then onto a meeting point. At the port, though, a change of plans, the LURD rebels want a formal meeting indoors.
SANDUSKY: And we have a place for you to talk to General (unintelligible).
KOINANGE: So, it's back to the rebels' temporary headquarters and the ice is officially broken.
JOHN BLANEY, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO LIBERIA: I'm here as to try to talk peace and to make sure that the cease-fire is respected that all parties have signed.
GEN. FESTUSE OKONKWO, ECOMIL FORCE COMMANDER: And I think it is a good way forward.
KOINANGE: Then another setback, the LURD commander insists President Taylor leave the country before the rebel forces leave the port.
ABDULAH SHERRIFI, LURD REBEL CHIEF OF STAFF: He has to leave Liberia totally, resign and leave Liberia and we will leave the port for the international peacekeepers.
KOINANGE: At the end of this second day of peacekeeping the matter remained unresolved, President Taylor still in the country and the peacekeepers still without a port.
Jeff Koinange CNN, Monrovia, Liberia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And, quickly a few more items from around the world starting in Cairo at a meeting of the Arab League, foreign ministers today refusing an American request to send peacekeepers to Iraq. They also decided not to recognize Iraq's provisional governing council, preferring to wait until the Iraqis settle on a government of their own.
Portugal is now asking NATO for help, NATO planes and helicopters to help put out the wildfires that are burning around the country. The death toll keeps rising as well. No let up to the heat or the high winds. One firefighter put it best about his corner of the battle. "It wasn't a fire" he said "it was hell."
To Britain next and a bad day to be wearing a big, fur hat, 86 degrees in London today, an inferno for them, temperatures into the hundreds elsewhere. Forecasters expect records to be broken all across the continent tomorrow as the heat wave continues.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, terror here in the United States, a radical environmental group claiming it burned down a California apartment complex.
And, from Alabama tonight, the story of a town worried over a plan to destroy nerve gas stored nearby.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This is a story about what might have been a terrorist attack but it's not the kind of terrorism the country's been facing for the past two years. This kind of terror is something we saw quite a bit of in the late '80s and early '90s, homegrown, and often aimed at targets out west, eco terrorism.
At issue tonight is whether a recent fire in San Diego is the act of a radical environmentalist group, reporting the story for us tonight, CNN's Dan Lothian.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Consumed by fire, possibly ignited by hate, a five-story 206-unit apartment complex under construction in San Diego disappears floor-by-floor. It's a $50 million loss investigators blame on an arsonist.
CAPT. JEFF CARLE, SAN DIEGO FIRE METRO ARSON: The intent was to turn this structure to the ground.
LOTHIAN: This giant fingerprint left at the scene just one clue in the search for suspects, a banner reading: "If you build it we will burn it," signed ELF, allegedly the radical environmental group Earth Liberation Front, convincing evidence of a possible eco terrorist attack but authorities aren't ruling anything out.
CARLE: Our part now is to try and figure out who did this for certain and then, if we can, bring them to justice.
LOTHIAN: The arson set last Friday morning...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We saw some flames and then (unintelligible) the whole thing was just in one big ball of flame.
LOTHIAN: ...is being investigated by a joint terrorism task force made up of 20 law enforcement agencies.
(on camera): If it turns out the arson is eco terrorism it would not be unprecedented. ELF has claimed responsibility for at least 50 incidents across the country typically taking action against projects the group believes harm the environment like development.
(voice-over): On the group's Web site a so-called diary of actions includes the torching of this ski resort in Vail, Colorado in 1998. Expansion was planned there. And, two years later, several nearly completed homes on New York's Long Island.
CNN's attempt to contact ELF was unsuccessful. In some attacks victims have made a statement by vowing to rebuild or repair damage quickly. That's what's happening in San Diego. This suspected case of eco terrorism hasn't stopped the project. Under tight security, developers are back on site removing debris, gearing up to rebuild.
Dan Lothian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: On to now a story of an entire town on edge tonight. Who can blame them? The Army has told the people of Anniston, Alabama that a plan to burn a nearby stash of chemical weapons from the Cold War is perfectly safe, safer in fact than letting the stuff sit around as it has now for decades.
Easy to accept in theory a bit harder maybe when it's happening just down the road. The incineration was supposed to start today but it was postponed until a federal judge can consider a request by an environmental group for a restraining order and the residents of Anniston, meanwhile, have more time to get used to a new accessory in their lives, a gas mask.
Once again, CNN's David Mattingly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): They've been coming from all over Anniston, Alabama looking for peace of mind and finding it in a special breathing mask.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's very scary. It's very scary.
MATTINGLY: More than 1,000 people a day crowd into what county officials call a readiness center, getting ready for when the Army begins the $1 billion incineration of a stockpile of chemical and nerve gas weapons.
MIKE ABRAMS, ARMY PUBLIC AFFAIRS: It's much, much safer to operate this facility than to store chemical weapons at Anniston Army Depot.
MATTINGLY: The weapons have been in storage at the Anniston Army Depot since 1961. They're now so old the Army confirms some of them are leaking and have been for years but burning them, something the Army has been doing elsewhere for more than a decade, has many in this community on edge.
CHRIS WHIGHAM, ANNISTON RESIDENT: We bought a house here, raising my kids here for seven years and then the next thing you know maybe a leak one day.
MATTINGLY: The Army, however, argues the process is tried, tested, and proven safe. Still, state officials demanded that every precaution is taken and that means outfitting thousands with gas masks and room air filters.
GOV. BOB RILEY, ALABAMA: We don't think that it will ever be necessary to use it but to just be sure that's the reason we distribute the gas masks and do the other things that we're doing here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: In the meantime, opponents of the incinerator will continue to pursue court action and hoping to force the Army back to the drawing board. They want the Army to pursue a course of action called chemical neutralization that doesn't involve any burning at all but the Army says that's a bad idea. First of all, they say incineration is safe and effective and it's ready to go right now -- Aaron.
BROWN: Is it also less expensive?
MATTINGLY: It's not a matter of cost right now so much as it is a proven method. What they have with the chemical neutralization is a process that they feel they aren't comfortable with and because they are right here in the middle of a small metropolitan area they want to use something that they know how to operate and know what works.
They've already got that plant built. It's a billion dollar project, so there's probably a certain capital outlay that they don't want to go back to the drawing board with right now either.
BROWN: This is probably obvious but why didn't they just in the first place take all this stuff and haul it out into the middle of nowhere of which there is plenty in the United States, lots of places like that, and dispose of it there?
MATTINGLY: Because they feel it's more dangerous to move this stuff right now than it is to burn it. That's why they built the incinerators on site here in Anniston and they're building incinerators elsewhere. There are eight different locations across the country with the same kind of aging chemical weapons problems that Anniston is having right now.
BROWN: David, thank you. You fielded all the questions really well tonight too, David Mattingly in Anniston, Alabama tonight.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the case of the pilots who were drinking and how the difference in state and federal laws may allow them to avoid criminal charges. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK, stop me if you've heard this before. Two pilots go into a bar. Now here's the punchline, and there's nothing funny about it. After getting too drunk to drive, too drunk to even get near a cockpit, which they tried to do, by the way, with 124 passengers on board the plane, and too drunk to keep their jobs, it now looks like they were just sober enough to stay out of jail.
From Miami, here's CNN's John Zarrella.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ZARRELLA (voice-over): The loss of their jobs and pilots licenses may be the harshest penalty two former America West pilots have to deal with. U.S. District Judge Patricia Seitz agreed with defense attorneys for Thomas Cloyd and Christopher Hughes that only the federal government has jurisdiction over their actions.
GENE LINDSEY, PILOT'S ATTORNEY: The regulation of pilots operating commercial aircraft is strictly a federal issue.
ZARRELLA: In her 18-page ruling, Seitz stopped the state from taking any further criminal action against Cloyd and Hughes for operating an aircraft while under the influence of alcohol. The judge concluded -- quote -- "Federal law preempts state law in the area of pilot qualifications and capacity to operate commercial aircraft in interstate commerce where there is no actual loss of life, injury, or damage to property" -- end quote.
The state attorney's office says it will appeal. But if the state loses on appeal, Cloyd and Hughes may face no further prosecutions. While their blood alcohol levels made them legally drunk under Florida law, they were not quite drunk enough to violate federal law.
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: There's no indication, based on this opinion or anything we've read, that there is a federal charge available to be brought. Now, the U.S. attorney's office may be exploring options.
ZARRELLA: The night before their arrest, a security camera at a Miami sports bar, Mr. Moe's (ph), captured the men playing pool and drinking with others. The next morning, a security guard at Miami International Airport noticed the men seemed intoxicated as they passed through security.
Police were notified and the Airbus was recalled just as it was taxing to the runway for a flight to Phoenix. Breathalyzer tests showed both men's blood alcohol exceeded .08, the Florida limit. But their level was under the .10 federal limit required to bring criminal DUI charges.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZARRELLA: America West officials told us this afternoon that the federal court's ruling does in no way change the pilots' status. They're still fired because they violated an America West policy that forbids pilots from drinking less than 12 hours before flying -- Aaron.
BROWN: Did the state's attorneys explain how they're going to deal with the judge? I understand they're going to appeal it. What's the argument they're going to make? Because, if it's the same argument they made, it didn't get them very far.
ZARRELLA: No, it didn't get them very far at all.
And, in fact, at this point, they really don't know what argument they will make before the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, which is where they're going. They said to us this afternoon, they had not had enough time to examine the judge's 18-page ruling. What they did say was, they felt there was -- quote -- "enough latitude" under the law that they might be able to win on appeal. But that's as far as they would go -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you very much -- John Zarrella in Miami tonight.
A few stories from around the country to get in tonight, beginning with the story about the son of Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean; 17-year-old Paul Dean agreed to participate in a court program for his role in stealing beer and champagne from a country club back in June. In a few weeks, he'll appear before a community board that will determine his punishment. He may be ordered to perform community service, write a letter of apology, reimburse the country club.
In Lawrenceville, Georgia, armed men wearing ninja disguises locked two bank employees inside a vault during a holdup, then escaped before police stormed in hours later. Authorities say, no surveillance video or witness reports about a getaway vehicle.
And the next shuttle mission will be later than NASA originally suggested and hoped. NASA's deputy administrator said today it's not clear when they'll get the shuttle back into space, but that it will be mid-March of next year at the earliest. Just weeks ago, NASA was saying they could be as early as this coming December.
Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk current events with Bill Maher.
Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I think that's two days in a row for the school superintendent failing the English test.
Truth is stranger than fiction, they say. And from where Bill Maher sits, it's funnier, too, hopefully. For 10 years, Mr. Maher has been turning headlines into punch lines with his politically incorrect sense of humor. He's back on HBO for another season of "Real Time with Bill Maher," and just in time, too, because the news was starting to get fairly serious. Of course, you can't expect that to stop Bill Maher, who can find humor in the darkest of places.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER")
BILL MAHER, HOST: Now, those first photos we saw of Uday and Qusay, pretty gruesome. They looked bruised, bloodied, swollen. And just out of habit, Kobe Bryant said it was consensual.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Yikes.
Mr. Maher joins us tonight from Los Angeles.
It's nice to see you.
MAHER: Thank you for having me.
BROWN: What is the fascination with the Kobe case? It is all people ask me about these days. What do you think? What do you think?
MAHER: Why? Were you there?
BROWN: No, I wasn't there.
MAHER: Why are they asking you?
BROWN: Because I'm supposed to know.
MAHER: Well, you've got sex. You've got fame. You've got race. And they are starting to play the race card now, it looks like, because -- did you see what he said at the Teen Choice Awards?
BROWN: This was the Martin Luther King quote.
MAHER: Yes. He quoted Martin -- an injustice anywhere is -- whatever the quote is.
BROWN: Right.
MAHER: Which I thought was just wildly inappropriate. I'm going to have to go after this guy on the show Friday night, because that's just a ridiculous thing to say. He is not a civil rights activist.
He's a rich baller who was trying to get some stanky on his hang- down. Oh, can you say that on CNN? Anyway...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I don't know. I didn't understand most of those words, so it's OK.
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: That's OK. That was always my way of outfoxing the censors.
BROWN: That's a good way to do it.
MAHER: Yes.
Anyway, somebody should be advising Kobe Bryant a little better. And he should stay indoors.
BROWN: Yes, and let this play out a little more quietly than he has.
MAHER: Yes.
BROWN: On things that aren't playing out quietly, the California recall, what's your take?
MAHER: Well, we have Gray Davis on our show Friday night. And I think one of the reasons why he agreed to do my show was because I sort of came to his defense in an editorial in "The Los Angeles Times."
I don't think this recall is a very good thing for California or democracy. It's certainly not going to solve any of our problems. And we are obviously a very impatient people, especially here in California. But this problem the state is going through is not Gray Davis' fault. What happened was, the dot-com bubble burst, a Gray Davis plot, obviously. We fought two wars overseas, just as Gray Davis wanted us to do.
The airline industry went south, again, Gray Davis' fault. And Dick Cheney's friends at Enron gamed the energy market and cost the state billions. So you can see the problem: Gray Davis. So that's what I basically said. And I also made the point that the people who elected him actually went to the polls, as opposed to the people who are signing the petitions for the recall, who are really just people who are coming out of the supermarket and have nothing better to do for a minute.
BROWN: But then the recall will fail and California will move on. And so what's the big deal?
MAHER: Well, the recall may not fail. They may recall him and then we might have a recall of the guy we put in there, who could be anybody.
BROWN: Isn't this, weirdly, just the logical or perhaps illogical extension of what California politics has been for the last 30 years, where just about everything ends up as a referendum or an initiative?
MAHER: Yes.
I've lived here in Los Angeles for 20 years. I grew up back East. But I always loved it out here. And I always got my back up when people would make fun of California. It always suffered in comparison to New York. They would say, how can you leave New York? What about the intellectual climate and the artistic climate? And I would say, what about the climate-climate?
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: But every once in a while, I have to admit, yes, we do look fruity and flaky and crazy. And they're right. There is something about -- I think, where it comes from, Aaron, is that people in America, when they're unhappy or cuckoo, they move west and they move west. If you're not happy in New Jersey, go to Cleveland. If you're not happy there, go to Denver.
And they get here to the end and there's nowhere else to be crazy. And so they all get stuck here.
BROWN: Let me ask you, if I may -- and I think I may -- a couple of personal questions. Do you miss doing a daily program?
MAHER: No, I don't. I like...
BROWN: Not at all?
MAHER: No. I like this. I like this once a week. You can put all your energy into making one terrific show, as opposed to five pretty good shows.
When you do an everyday show -- and this was the kind of show I was doing and the kind that Jay and Dave do -- whoever you are, if you're doing it every day, there's no way you can rise to anything close to perfection on a daily basis. It's the same way you could eat a hamburger every day, where you couldn't eat (UNINTELLIGIBLE) seven nights a week, although I hear that you do.
BROWN: I do, every single night, out of a carton. It's takeout.
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: Oh, is that that cup of soup where you pour the water in and it's
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Absolutely. We all do that here.
Are you at all introspective? Are you an introspective person?
MAHER: I like to think so, yes.
I think, very often, the problem I have is that I analyze stuff too much. I don't have a problem starting my brain. But every night, when I put my head on the pillow, I do have a problem stopping it.
BROWN: And lately, you've just been really hard on the media, which I always save for the last question.
MAHER: Well, I think, in some ways, they deserve it.
BROWN: Why?
MAHER: Because I don't feel that I necessarily am getting the true story.
I remember when Sean Penn went to Iraq and they said, what a traitorous thing to do. And he said: No, no, no, I'm not going over there because I favor Iraq or I don't like America. I'm going over there because this is an important thing and I've got to see it for myself, because I don't trust what they're telling me. I just think, in the old days, people in the media took their job differently. They felt that they were the eyes and ears of people who could not be there. They were performing a service. It was more about, how can I communicate something that somebody can't get any other way? And now it's more like their ego. It's like the news is there to bring you them.
BROWN: Well, we'll continue that.
(CROSSTALK)
MAHER: Or not. But not you. Not you.
BROWN: No, no, I can handle it.
MAHER: Others.
BROWN: OK.
Good luck on the program. I'm a big fan, even after that.
MAHER: Thank you.
BROWN: I'll contemplate whether I remain so.
Thanks a lot. Nice to have you on the program.
MAHER: All right.
BROWN: Bill Maher.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: How much money can one person spend? It turns out a lot. Mike Tyson takes it to a new level, earning hundreds of millions, yet spending even more.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A wise man once said, making money is easy; keeping it is hard.
And Mike Tyson is proving the point, which is not to say beating and being beaten in a boxing ring is all that easy. But Mr. Tyson did manage to earn between $300 million and $400 million that way over the last 20 years. Now he says he doesn't have enough to pay all he owes. The idea in itself is mind-boggling, like the premise of a new reality show: Live Fast, Spend Faster.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Let's be fair. World champion boxers, even former champs, have expenses the rest of us don't, like $17 million in taxes owed to two countries or $9 million to settle a divorce. There's $75,000 a year -- that's a year -- for cell phones and pagers and $65,000 for limousines. And Mike Tyson is not just a boxing champion. He's a very generous guy. How else can you describe a man who spends $500,000 in one hour buying jewelry for his friends and more than $400,000 on a birthday party? It's easy to see how a guy like Tyson could easily fall victim to people looking to take advantage of his good nature. That's what Iron Mike says happened when he signed on with Don King, which is why he's suing King, the fight promoter, for $100 million, which could help pay off some of Tyson's debt, which Tyson's bankruptcy attorney says totals about $27 million.
They are a little less definite about his assets, which they estimate at between $10 million and $50 million. Perhaps debt is easier to keep track of. Just add up the bills. Mike says he's been in financial distress, his words, or his lawyer's, for the last five years. Now he wants protection from the courts, from bills for lawyers, financial consultants, jewelers, and insurance companies.
With all those expenses, it's hard to imagine where he found the $8,000 it cost to take care of his tigers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Clearly, this is something that requires the analysis of an expert in boxing. So we've asked the best one we know, Bert Sugar of "Fight Game" magazine -- and I always think central casting -- to join us. It's nice to see you again.
Well, it's all pretty sad. We can make jokes about it, but there is something almost pathetic now about Mr. Tyson.
BERT SUGAR, BOXING WRITER/HISTORIAN: Well, he's gone from the bizarre to the tragic, really.
And yet one of the costs they didn't show on this that was filed in the Chapter 11 papers, $500,000 to a firm called BLH.
BROWN: This is his financial adviser?
SUGAR: Yes, they did a hell of a job. They not only didn't collect their own money. They didn't help him.
BROWN: This is great advertising for that firm, isn't it?
SUGAR: For any financial adviser. They must be the poster boy.
BROWN: It is one of the things that, honestly, about him I never understood. At various points in his life, he was surrounded by smart, credible people. Certainly, early in his career, he was. What happened?
SUGAR: Many things. I'm not sure Mike either relies on advice or trusts people who give it. Yes, Cus D'Amato, yes, Jimmy Jacobs, when they passed.
And everybody wants to blame Don King. Yes, he probably has a blame in here. But, in all of this, did we hear Mike Tyson even blaming himself? It's almost as if he did nothing again. And, yes, Mike has done something. I've seen him. He's a very profligate spender. You remember the incident a few years back when his Bentley hit another car. He was trying to give the Bentley away. He's done a lot.
Aaron, I just want to put in perspective something; $300 million might gloss over people. It's a lot of zeros. It looks like a telephone number. If the average person makes $1,000 a week, that's $52,000 a year. It would only take them 5,700 years to make and amass $300 million.
BROWN: It's a staggering amount of money. Of that -- this will sound like I'm making a joke -- I'm not -- let's say he made $300 million. How much of that actually did he make, did he get?
SUGAR: I'd say a third of it wasn't his. That's still $200 mil.
BROWN: OK, you could probably work pretty hard and not spend all of that.
Does he have a fight career left? Will people still pay to see him?
SUGAR: People will pay to see him. You've asked two different questions.
BROWN: Got it.
SUGAR: He'll generate the eyeballs out of curiosity, out of tabloid perversity.
BROWN: It's kind of a freak show.
SUGAR: Yes, a lounge act.
Whether he has a career left or not -- he's 37 years old -- I really don't know if he has a big career left, but he certainly can -- maybe the IRS, which is owed $13.5 million, can put on the fight.
BROWN: Who would fight him?
SUGAR: Roy Jones Jr.
BROWN: Because it's a gate?
SUGAR: Evander Holyfield for the third time.
But Mike has to show more interest in a fight than he does in having, say, a fight in a hotel lobby. He's got to sign a contract to get in the ring.
BROWN: Do you think he's -- and I'm mean this actually literally. Do you think he's sick, emotionally?
SUGAR: Mike Tyson is a very smart man, but that's only one of the cells going on up here. I think he's possessed by several demons. He could see "The Three Faces of Eve" or "Sybil" several times. He could get a group discount, Aaron, from the American Psychiatric Association, there's so much going on.
BROWN: Do you like him?
SUGAR: I delight in him as a person. I don't delight in his problems. And I don't delight how he addresses other people and deals with them, because, right now, he's into self-loathing, self-pity. And Larry Holmes 10 years ago said, Mike Tyson will not be alive in five years. The clock is ticking.
BROWN: Yes, it is.
Nice to see you. Thank you.
SUGAR: Aaron, my pleasure.
BROWN: I wish it were happier times, but we enjoy seeing you anyway, Bert Sugar.
SUGAR: My pleasure. Thank you.
BROWN: And we'll check morning papers for you after the break.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: It's like the intro from Larry. It's just some things make me laugh easily. And the rooster, whatever the heck that thing is, is one of them.
Time for morning papers, OK, or okeydokey, for those of you who insist I say that every night.
"The New York Times." We'll begin with the, because that's the responsible thing to do. And we want to prove that we are a responsible news program. All the expected stuff, the Indonesia terrorist attack. The gay bishop wins approval. But here's a story that will catch your eye, perhaps, if you see "The Times" tomorrow. "Cancer Drugs Face Funds Cut in a Bush Plan." The Bush administration will soon propose significant cuts in Medicare payments on cancer drugs. I'm sure there's a good reason for that, but I can't think of one. But I'm sure there is one.
"The Daily Camera." This is the newspaper -- this is a cool one. Thank you for getting this. In Boulder, Colorado. Again, the front page pretty much as you would expect, but here's why we called that fine newspaper, because it's the closest newspaper we could find to Eagle. "Eagle Prepares for Bryant Case's Media Onslaught." It's a pretty ugly thing when we move into a town, as we're about to move into Eagle tomorrow for the hearing with Mr. Bryant. And so we thought we'd bring that to you.
"The Washington Times." Again, all the things you expect, the gay bishop, terrorist attack. But I like this one down in the corner. And I would, because I have a 14-year-old daughter. "Poll Shows Teens Value Ties, Time With Family." I would talk to my daughter about this, but she's not speaking to me now. That's not true. Well, actually, it is true, but it's more complicated. I'm sure she'll get over it. I'm making this up.
"The Oregonian." "Portlanders" -- it ought to be Portland Oregonians -- "Give Clinton Rock Star Welcome." This is Mrs. Clinton, Senator Clinton, who was there to sell the book. How we doing on time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-four.
BROWN: Thank you; 34? He's so precise. Have you noticed that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-nine.
BROWN: Twenty-nine. Thank you.
"The Orlando Sentinel." A lot of new papers today. Man, we're going to have to pay that intern something. "Graham's" -- that's Senator Graham -- "Popularity Plunges Below 50." The senator's attacks on President Bush has eroded state support among Republicans.
The weather tomorrow in Chicago is stuffy.
But we're all back here, aren't we, 10:00 Eastern time. We hope you'll be back here, too.
Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Bombing in Jakarta; Residents of Anniston, Alabama Prepare for the Worst>
Aired August 5, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
As sometimes is the case, an important decision is not the end of something but simply the beginning. Take the vote today by Episcopalian leaders on elevating the Reverend Gene Robinson to the post of bishop. Well, the change today was the vote. The story in many ways is about tomorrow.
What will be the result? Will there be a serious split in the church for starters? Or, perhaps it will work another way, might it make it easier for other churches to take on this difficult issue of openly gay clergy?
We can't know the answers tonight, though we'll sort through some of the clues. What we can know about is the vote and how it came to be and it's where we begin the whip tonight. CNN's Susan Candiotti has all the details from Minneapolis, Susan a headline please.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hello, Aaron. It is a day of history for the U.S. Episcopal Church and depending on how you look at the outcome it is either a day to celebrate or, for many, a day to despair -- back to you.
BROWN: Susan we'll get to you at the top tonight.
On to a deadly terrorist attack in Jakarta, Indonesia today, Maria Ressa following that, Maria your headline.
MARIA RESSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, an explosion in the financial district of Jakarta, an American chain the Marriott Hotel. Authorities say the bomb is similar to the blast in Bali last year which killed more than 200 people in an attack claimed by al Qaeda -- back to you.
BROWN: Thank you, we'll get back to you too pretty quickly.
The latest now on the plan by the Army to destroy chemical weapons that date back to the Cold War in one Alabama town, David Mattingly is in Anniston, Alabama, David the headline.
DAVID MATTINGLY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, gas masks and duct tape, in Anniston, Alabama, that is the proverbial ounce of prevention -- Aaron.
BROWN: David, thank you.
And, finally, the fate of two former America West airline pilots accused of trying to fly last year after drinking. John Zarrella is on that from Miami, John your headline.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, a federal judge has ruled that the state of Florida has no jurisdiction to charge the pilots in a criminal case here in Florida. The judge ruled that federal law takes jurisdiction at least in this case.
BROWN: And, there's even a twist to that, John back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up tonight on NEWSNIGHT, was a recent fire in San Diego the work of terrorists? The suspects here aren't al Qaeda but radical environmentalists. A message was found at the scene that said, "If you build it we will burn it."
We'll also tonight talk with the comedian Bill Maher. We got an e-mail today saying why are you having him on? Then we got another one saying why haven't you had him on sooner? Hum. Love him or hate him he gets people talking which is a pretty good guest to us.
And, give us two and a half minutes and we'll give you the world. Okay, that's someone else's slogan but the segment we promise is ours and ours alone, NEWSNIGHT's on look at tomorrow morning's paper tonight, all that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin in Minneapolis at one of those sobering moments when the news of the day and history collide. The headline, of course, is the confirmation of an openly gay man as a bishop in the American Episcopal Church.
The history is yet to be fully written but events today make up the first sentence of the first chapter in that story that may end in a radically different church or, perhaps, a church split in two.
Susan Candiotti has just finished an interview with Reverend Gene Robinson soon to become formally Bishop Robinson, Susan good evening.
CANDIOTTI: Good evening, Aaron.
You might say or might think that Reverend Gene Robinson would be terribly excited, barely able to sit still after what for him is an historic day and for the church as well but he said he had a sense of calm and never any second thoughts about what was to happen this day. I spoke with him just moments ago.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BISHOP GENE ROBINSON, NEW HAMPSHIRE: It's been a long time in coming. It's not so much a dream as a calling from God and I'm really thrilled to be on my way to being the Bishop of New Hampshire.
CANDIOTTI (voice-over): Do you feel as though you are now still in a firestorm? You have people now who are saying that you have indeed shattered the church and you will cause a divide that is irreparable possibly.
ROBINSON: Time will tell. I firmly believe that we can hold together as we have held together over many controversies in the Anglican Communion and in the Episcopal Church and I'm really confident that God will see us through.
CANDIOTTI: What does this ratification mean?
ROBINSON: Well, it means that...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All in favor of concurrence please say aye.
AUDIENCE: Aye.
CANDIOTTI: A majority of Episcopal bishops ratified his election making Gene Robinson the first openly gay bishop in the worldwide Anglican family. But after a prayer service, prearranged by Robinson's opponents, they warned a threat of schism now looms over the Episcopal Church.
REV. KENDALL HARMON, EPISCOPALIAN CHURCH: I'm very broken hearted. I mean, I think devastated is not too strong a word for not only how I feel but how so many Episcopalians feel.
CANDIOTTI: Bishops resume their debate over Robinson after an investigation cleared him of sexual related accusations. To many the last minute allegations appeared suspect from the start yet supporters and critics of the priest said they had to be addressed.
In what most saw as the more serious of the two issues, David Lewis of Vermont sent an e-mail to the bishops claiming the priest touched him inappropriately during a public prayer meeting.
BISHOP GORDON SCRUTON, EPISCOPALIAN CHURCH: Canon Robinson put his left hand on the individual's arm and his right hand on the individual's upper back as he listened to his questions and answered them. I asked him whether he wanted to bring a formal charge of harassment. He said very clearly no. He regretted having used the word harassment in his e-mail.
CANDIOTTI: Some bishops said they found the allegation about inappropriate touching sin from the start.
RODNEY MICHEL, DIOCESE OF NEW YORK: Look around at all of the thousands of people who are here really would probably be guilty of that.
CANDIOTTI: Church officials say the man told them he was grateful the church listened to him.
Investigators also said they could find no connection between Robinson and pornographic Web site.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CANDIOTTI: Reverend Gene Robinson, now Bishop-elect Gene Robinson, he will be ratified in November. He says he's not bitter, not angry over the allegations. He simply wants to be the best bishop he can be to the people of New Hampshire and to the entire Episcopal Church. The question is where does the church go from here -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, we'll get to that in a second. For right now, I'm curious on where the opponents go from here. Is it over for them or do they have options?
CANDIOTTI: Well, certainly, they do intend to bring this, they said, before all of the primates of the Anglican community and hope that there will be some consideration to see how the Anglican community plans to treat this.
There is a possibility of a split. They talk about also the possibility of reconciliation but this is a very unhappy group of people this night. I asked what they thought about the investigation, for example, and they said well if the bishop did what he said he did then they find no quarrel with that, unclear what that's supposed to mean.
BROWN: Susan, thank you very much. It's been an interesting week for you in Minneapolis. Thank you.
With us now, Peter Steinfels whose writing on religion and the question of faith or questions of faith appear often in the pages of "The New York Times," also the author of "A People Adrift: The Crisis in the Roman Catholic Church in America," and it's nice to have you with us.
Walk me through something I just simply don't know the answer to. To what extent is there a pope-like figure in the Anglican Church who can say, no, you can't do that?
PETER STEINFELS, BELIEFS COLUMNIST, "NEW YORK TIMES": The answer is no. There is, of course the Archbishop of Canterbury.
BROWN: Right.
STEINFELS: Who holds a position of honor and primacy and is a symbol of unity for I think it's over three dozen different regional and national Anglican churches around the world.
Secondly, there is a gathering that takes place every ten years of Anglican bishops from those churches around the world that's called the Lambeth Conference and in, I think it was the 1998 meeting they passed a non-binding resolution indicating that they felt that homosexual relations were incompatible with the church's teachings.
But it is non-binding and that's the question, what will happen with that loose federation of churches around and the world and the answer is there is no one or no group that can make a final decision in the sense, in the way that the pope can.
BROWN: Why of all of the possible issues that could split a church, there are lots of them out there it seems to me, why is this issue so difficult perhaps for all of us in some respects but for the church in this case?
STEINFELS: I think it's because it's not really just an issue about homosexuality. It is, of course, an issue about homosexuality but, beyond that, it is an issue that raises questions about a whole range of matters of sexual ethics and morality.
What is the basis for people's belief about marriage, fidelity, cohabitation, all those things? Is it the Bible? It is contemporary social science? Is it personal experience?
And, that's the one part that it stretches out to an immense question and that's why everybody gets so upset about it. They try and take it just as a part and they end up having to look at this whole range of issues.
BROWN: Does what happened in Minneapolis this week in some respects reflect the Episcopalian Church itself which, in some respects and in some places, is quite conservative? I lived in Seattle for a long time. One of the most liberal churches in Seattle was an Episcopalian Church. The church itself seems to not be of one thought.
STEINFELS: I think it reflects the Episcopal Church in the sense that from its very beginnings its had different strands of thought. It had -- from the reformation era it had a strong Protestant strand and it also had a strong Catholic strand and these two strands have learned to live together in many ways.
So, that's meant that it didn't split in the way that a lot of other churches did. They kept things within their ranks and my bet is that the American Episcopal Church, although it will suffer some losses and a great deal of agony because of this, will in fact not split in the way other churches have.
BROWN: I want to make sure I understand what you said that the American church itself or the American branch will not split does that mean also that the American branch will not split from the broader Anglican community?
STEINFELS: I think that that's much more up in the air and it isn't a question of the Americans versus everybody else. It's a number of the more liberal churches I'd say across the Atlantic from England to Canada to the United States and their relations, in particular with a number of third world countries that have much more conservative views on this matter.
BROWN: Just a final question. Give me a sense of the historic import of the moment today.
STEINFELS: I think it's a major development which is going to push forward this issue and a lot of related issues about sexuality in a lot of other churches and it will be interesting to see whether they respond by hardening their positions, taking as we saw in a kind of preemptive act a statement from the Vatican a week ago or whether they'll look to see what the Episcopal Church has done and say, well, maybe we don't agree but we may adapt. We can move to maybe a closer position.
BROWN: I'm going to drive them crazy in the booth here but it is always harder, it seems to me, in anything to be the first.
STEINFELS: Yes.
BROWN: In some respects it might be easier for other churches should they be so inclined to take this step.
STEINFELS: That will take a while. My guess is that the immediate effect will be to make the conflicts sharper and deeper.
BROWN: Thanks for coming in. It's very helpful to me.
STEINFELS: Glad to be here.
BROWN: Thank you very much.
On to other news of the day, in Indonesia first, it became clear again today that along with Americans, American economic influence is being targeted around the world by terrorists. The latest evidence found in the rubble of the J.W. Marriott Hotel or what was one in Jakarta.
A car bomber struck there this afternoon, more than a dozen people dead. While no one has formally come forward to claim responsibility for the attack it bears many of the markings of a shadowy radical Islamic group that caused so much carnage last fall in Bali.
Here again, CNN's Maria Ressa.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RESSA (voice-over): Police say a car loaded with explosives drove through the taxi stand in front of the Marriott Hotel and kept heading straight for the lobby. That was when the bomb detonated, its blast radius visible along the shattered windows of nearby buildings.
The Indonesian police chief said the bomb was similar to the ones used in Bali last year an attack which killed more than 200 people and was blamed on the group Jemaah Islamiyah or JI.
ROHAN GUNARATNA, AL QAEDA EXPERT: JI is an al Qaeda Southeast Asian Army. JI is an independent group but because al Qaeda has corrupted the JI operational leadership, JI is also functioning as an extended arm of al Qaeda.
RESSA: Since November, police here have arrested more than 40 suspected JI members, part of nearly 200 arrested in Southeast Asia but that hasn't stopped JI's ability to plan and carry out more attacks. Besides Tuesday's blast, authorities have connected JI to other explosions recently in the Philippines and Indonesia.
SIDNEY JONES, INDONESIAN CRISIS GROUP: I don't think anybody knows what kind of a dent they've made in the organization. That's part of the problem is that nobody has a clue of how extensive this network actually is.
RESSA: Earlier, authorities in the region have warned of more, perhaps larger, attacks after a top JI operative escaped from a Philippine jail last month and weapons and explosives were recently discovered hidden in Indonesia and the Philippines. Add to that the fact the first verdict in the Bali trials is expected Thursday.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RESSA: Police say arrests in recent weeks show that instead of hiding, JI operatives had actually been raising money and preparing for future attacks. The Marriott was the prime target, packed lunchtime crowd, a favorite of expatriates and diplomats. Intelligence officials tell us they fear that it could be followed by other similar attacks -- back to you, Aaron.
BROWN: Maria, thank you very much, Maria Ressa in Jakarta today.
On to Liberia next where a team of U.S. military personnel, U.S. military personnel will arrive tomorrow to help assess the needs of the West African peacekeepers who began arriving yesterday.
The pictures we saw of that arrival of Liberians celebrating, of soldiers hoisted up on shoulders, shouldn't give a false impression that this is going to be easy work. Peacekeeping is messy. It is a dangerous business. It means getting in the middle of a brutal war, sometimes literally so.
A CNN crew traveled with the peacekeepers today crossing from government-held territory to the rebel lines dealing with the issues, the promises, the disappointments and the frustrations.
The day is reported in this exclusive report by CNN's Jeff Koinange.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Marching to the beat these are LURD rebels, an acronym for Liberians United for Reconciliation and Democracy. They are responsible for waging war on embattled President Charles Taylor finally forcing him to step down.
They have all but overrun the capital, Monrovia, but failed to secure this key bridge. On this side, government troops, they refuse to allow any traffic to cross.
Enter the West African peacekeepers. They need control of the bridge to the seaport to bring in relief supplies. Accompanied by U.S. Ambassador John Blaney, the peacekeepers make their way first to the government command post. After meeting the general they are given permission to cross.
At the halfway mark, the government troops retreat and the convoy proceeds gingerly into LURD territory. A rebel waves a white flag, a sign the convoy has successfully crossed. The guests are received and escorted under guard to a temporary rebel headquarters, more roadblocks along the way to meet the rebel general.
COL. SUE ANN SANDUSKY, U.S. MILITARY ATTACHE: We'd like to proceed to the port to have a little chat, okay? We'll follow.
KOINANGE: Then onto a meeting point. At the port, though, a change of plans, the LURD rebels want a formal meeting indoors.
SANDUSKY: And we have a place for you to talk to General (unintelligible).
KOINANGE: So, it's back to the rebels' temporary headquarters and the ice is officially broken.
JOHN BLANEY, U.S. AMBASSADOR TO LIBERIA: I'm here as to try to talk peace and to make sure that the cease-fire is respected that all parties have signed.
GEN. FESTUSE OKONKWO, ECOMIL FORCE COMMANDER: And I think it is a good way forward.
KOINANGE: Then another setback, the LURD commander insists President Taylor leave the country before the rebel forces leave the port.
ABDULAH SHERRIFI, LURD REBEL CHIEF OF STAFF: He has to leave Liberia totally, resign and leave Liberia and we will leave the port for the international peacekeepers.
KOINANGE: At the end of this second day of peacekeeping the matter remained unresolved, President Taylor still in the country and the peacekeepers still without a port.
Jeff Koinange CNN, Monrovia, Liberia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And, quickly a few more items from around the world starting in Cairo at a meeting of the Arab League, foreign ministers today refusing an American request to send peacekeepers to Iraq. They also decided not to recognize Iraq's provisional governing council, preferring to wait until the Iraqis settle on a government of their own.
Portugal is now asking NATO for help, NATO planes and helicopters to help put out the wildfires that are burning around the country. The death toll keeps rising as well. No let up to the heat or the high winds. One firefighter put it best about his corner of the battle. "It wasn't a fire" he said "it was hell."
To Britain next and a bad day to be wearing a big, fur hat, 86 degrees in London today, an inferno for them, temperatures into the hundreds elsewhere. Forecasters expect records to be broken all across the continent tomorrow as the heat wave continues.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, terror here in the United States, a radical environmental group claiming it burned down a California apartment complex.
And, from Alabama tonight, the story of a town worried over a plan to destroy nerve gas stored nearby.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This is a story about what might have been a terrorist attack but it's not the kind of terrorism the country's been facing for the past two years. This kind of terror is something we saw quite a bit of in the late '80s and early '90s, homegrown, and often aimed at targets out west, eco terrorism.
At issue tonight is whether a recent fire in San Diego is the act of a radical environmentalist group, reporting the story for us tonight, CNN's Dan Lothian.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Consumed by fire, possibly ignited by hate, a five-story 206-unit apartment complex under construction in San Diego disappears floor-by-floor. It's a $50 million loss investigators blame on an arsonist.
CAPT. JEFF CARLE, SAN DIEGO FIRE METRO ARSON: The intent was to turn this structure to the ground.
LOTHIAN: This giant fingerprint left at the scene just one clue in the search for suspects, a banner reading: "If you build it we will burn it," signed ELF, allegedly the radical environmental group Earth Liberation Front, convincing evidence of a possible eco terrorist attack but authorities aren't ruling anything out.
CARLE: Our part now is to try and figure out who did this for certain and then, if we can, bring them to justice.
LOTHIAN: The arson set last Friday morning...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We saw some flames and then (unintelligible) the whole thing was just in one big ball of flame.
LOTHIAN: ...is being investigated by a joint terrorism task force made up of 20 law enforcement agencies.
(on camera): If it turns out the arson is eco terrorism it would not be unprecedented. ELF has claimed responsibility for at least 50 incidents across the country typically taking action against projects the group believes harm the environment like development.
(voice-over): On the group's Web site a so-called diary of actions includes the torching of this ski resort in Vail, Colorado in 1998. Expansion was planned there. And, two years later, several nearly completed homes on New York's Long Island.
CNN's attempt to contact ELF was unsuccessful. In some attacks victims have made a statement by vowing to rebuild or repair damage quickly. That's what's happening in San Diego. This suspected case of eco terrorism hasn't stopped the project. Under tight security, developers are back on site removing debris, gearing up to rebuild.
Dan Lothian, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: On to now a story of an entire town on edge tonight. Who can blame them? The Army has told the people of Anniston, Alabama that a plan to burn a nearby stash of chemical weapons from the Cold War is perfectly safe, safer in fact than letting the stuff sit around as it has now for decades.
Easy to accept in theory a bit harder maybe when it's happening just down the road. The incineration was supposed to start today but it was postponed until a federal judge can consider a request by an environmental group for a restraining order and the residents of Anniston, meanwhile, have more time to get used to a new accessory in their lives, a gas mask.
Once again, CNN's David Mattingly.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY (voice-over): They've been coming from all over Anniston, Alabama looking for peace of mind and finding it in a special breathing mask.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's very scary. It's very scary.
MATTINGLY: More than 1,000 people a day crowd into what county officials call a readiness center, getting ready for when the Army begins the $1 billion incineration of a stockpile of chemical and nerve gas weapons.
MIKE ABRAMS, ARMY PUBLIC AFFAIRS: It's much, much safer to operate this facility than to store chemical weapons at Anniston Army Depot.
MATTINGLY: The weapons have been in storage at the Anniston Army Depot since 1961. They're now so old the Army confirms some of them are leaking and have been for years but burning them, something the Army has been doing elsewhere for more than a decade, has many in this community on edge.
CHRIS WHIGHAM, ANNISTON RESIDENT: We bought a house here, raising my kids here for seven years and then the next thing you know maybe a leak one day.
MATTINGLY: The Army, however, argues the process is tried, tested, and proven safe. Still, state officials demanded that every precaution is taken and that means outfitting thousands with gas masks and room air filters.
GOV. BOB RILEY, ALABAMA: We don't think that it will ever be necessary to use it but to just be sure that's the reason we distribute the gas masks and do the other things that we're doing here.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTINGLY: In the meantime, opponents of the incinerator will continue to pursue court action and hoping to force the Army back to the drawing board. They want the Army to pursue a course of action called chemical neutralization that doesn't involve any burning at all but the Army says that's a bad idea. First of all, they say incineration is safe and effective and it's ready to go right now -- Aaron.
BROWN: Is it also less expensive?
MATTINGLY: It's not a matter of cost right now so much as it is a proven method. What they have with the chemical neutralization is a process that they feel they aren't comfortable with and because they are right here in the middle of a small metropolitan area they want to use something that they know how to operate and know what works.
They've already got that plant built. It's a billion dollar project, so there's probably a certain capital outlay that they don't want to go back to the drawing board with right now either.
BROWN: This is probably obvious but why didn't they just in the first place take all this stuff and haul it out into the middle of nowhere of which there is plenty in the United States, lots of places like that, and dispose of it there?
MATTINGLY: Because they feel it's more dangerous to move this stuff right now than it is to burn it. That's why they built the incinerators on site here in Anniston and they're building incinerators elsewhere. There are eight different locations across the country with the same kind of aging chemical weapons problems that Anniston is having right now.
BROWN: David, thank you. You fielded all the questions really well tonight too, David Mattingly in Anniston, Alabama tonight.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, the case of the pilots who were drinking and how the difference in state and federal laws may allow them to avoid criminal charges. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK, stop me if you've heard this before. Two pilots go into a bar. Now here's the punchline, and there's nothing funny about it. After getting too drunk to drive, too drunk to even get near a cockpit, which they tried to do, by the way, with 124 passengers on board the plane, and too drunk to keep their jobs, it now looks like they were just sober enough to stay out of jail.
From Miami, here's CNN's John Zarrella.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ZARRELLA (voice-over): The loss of their jobs and pilots licenses may be the harshest penalty two former America West pilots have to deal with. U.S. District Judge Patricia Seitz agreed with defense attorneys for Thomas Cloyd and Christopher Hughes that only the federal government has jurisdiction over their actions.
GENE LINDSEY, PILOT'S ATTORNEY: The regulation of pilots operating commercial aircraft is strictly a federal issue.
ZARRELLA: In her 18-page ruling, Seitz stopped the state from taking any further criminal action against Cloyd and Hughes for operating an aircraft while under the influence of alcohol. The judge concluded -- quote -- "Federal law preempts state law in the area of pilot qualifications and capacity to operate commercial aircraft in interstate commerce where there is no actual loss of life, injury, or damage to property" -- end quote.
The state attorney's office says it will appeal. But if the state loses on appeal, Cloyd and Hughes may face no further prosecutions. While their blood alcohol levels made them legally drunk under Florida law, they were not quite drunk enough to violate federal law.
KENDALL COFFEY, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: There's no indication, based on this opinion or anything we've read, that there is a federal charge available to be brought. Now, the U.S. attorney's office may be exploring options.
ZARRELLA: The night before their arrest, a security camera at a Miami sports bar, Mr. Moe's (ph), captured the men playing pool and drinking with others. The next morning, a security guard at Miami International Airport noticed the men seemed intoxicated as they passed through security.
Police were notified and the Airbus was recalled just as it was taxing to the runway for a flight to Phoenix. Breathalyzer tests showed both men's blood alcohol exceeded .08, the Florida limit. But their level was under the .10 federal limit required to bring criminal DUI charges.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZARRELLA: America West officials told us this afternoon that the federal court's ruling does in no way change the pilots' status. They're still fired because they violated an America West policy that forbids pilots from drinking less than 12 hours before flying -- Aaron.
BROWN: Did the state's attorneys explain how they're going to deal with the judge? I understand they're going to appeal it. What's the argument they're going to make? Because, if it's the same argument they made, it didn't get them very far.
ZARRELLA: No, it didn't get them very far at all.
And, in fact, at this point, they really don't know what argument they will make before the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta, which is where they're going. They said to us this afternoon, they had not had enough time to examine the judge's 18-page ruling. What they did say was, they felt there was -- quote -- "enough latitude" under the law that they might be able to win on appeal. But that's as far as they would go -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you very much -- John Zarrella in Miami tonight.
A few stories from around the country to get in tonight, beginning with the story about the son of Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean; 17-year-old Paul Dean agreed to participate in a court program for his role in stealing beer and champagne from a country club back in June. In a few weeks, he'll appear before a community board that will determine his punishment. He may be ordered to perform community service, write a letter of apology, reimburse the country club.
In Lawrenceville, Georgia, armed men wearing ninja disguises locked two bank employees inside a vault during a holdup, then escaped before police stormed in hours later. Authorities say, no surveillance video or witness reports about a getaway vehicle.
And the next shuttle mission will be later than NASA originally suggested and hoped. NASA's deputy administrator said today it's not clear when they'll get the shuttle back into space, but that it will be mid-March of next year at the earliest. Just weeks ago, NASA was saying they could be as early as this coming December.
Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk current events with Bill Maher.
Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: I think that's two days in a row for the school superintendent failing the English test.
Truth is stranger than fiction, they say. And from where Bill Maher sits, it's funnier, too, hopefully. For 10 years, Mr. Maher has been turning headlines into punch lines with his politically incorrect sense of humor. He's back on HBO for another season of "Real Time with Bill Maher," and just in time, too, because the news was starting to get fairly serious. Of course, you can't expect that to stop Bill Maher, who can find humor in the darkest of places.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER")
BILL MAHER, HOST: Now, those first photos we saw of Uday and Qusay, pretty gruesome. They looked bruised, bloodied, swollen. And just out of habit, Kobe Bryant said it was consensual.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Yikes.
Mr. Maher joins us tonight from Los Angeles.
It's nice to see you.
MAHER: Thank you for having me.
BROWN: What is the fascination with the Kobe case? It is all people ask me about these days. What do you think? What do you think?
MAHER: Why? Were you there?
BROWN: No, I wasn't there.
MAHER: Why are they asking you?
BROWN: Because I'm supposed to know.
MAHER: Well, you've got sex. You've got fame. You've got race. And they are starting to play the race card now, it looks like, because -- did you see what he said at the Teen Choice Awards?
BROWN: This was the Martin Luther King quote.
MAHER: Yes. He quoted Martin -- an injustice anywhere is -- whatever the quote is.
BROWN: Right.
MAHER: Which I thought was just wildly inappropriate. I'm going to have to go after this guy on the show Friday night, because that's just a ridiculous thing to say. He is not a civil rights activist.
He's a rich baller who was trying to get some stanky on his hang- down. Oh, can you say that on CNN? Anyway...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I don't know. I didn't understand most of those words, so it's OK.
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: That's OK. That was always my way of outfoxing the censors.
BROWN: That's a good way to do it.
MAHER: Yes.
Anyway, somebody should be advising Kobe Bryant a little better. And he should stay indoors.
BROWN: Yes, and let this play out a little more quietly than he has.
MAHER: Yes.
BROWN: On things that aren't playing out quietly, the California recall, what's your take?
MAHER: Well, we have Gray Davis on our show Friday night. And I think one of the reasons why he agreed to do my show was because I sort of came to his defense in an editorial in "The Los Angeles Times."
I don't think this recall is a very good thing for California or democracy. It's certainly not going to solve any of our problems. And we are obviously a very impatient people, especially here in California. But this problem the state is going through is not Gray Davis' fault. What happened was, the dot-com bubble burst, a Gray Davis plot, obviously. We fought two wars overseas, just as Gray Davis wanted us to do.
The airline industry went south, again, Gray Davis' fault. And Dick Cheney's friends at Enron gamed the energy market and cost the state billions. So you can see the problem: Gray Davis. So that's what I basically said. And I also made the point that the people who elected him actually went to the polls, as opposed to the people who are signing the petitions for the recall, who are really just people who are coming out of the supermarket and have nothing better to do for a minute.
BROWN: But then the recall will fail and California will move on. And so what's the big deal?
MAHER: Well, the recall may not fail. They may recall him and then we might have a recall of the guy we put in there, who could be anybody.
BROWN: Isn't this, weirdly, just the logical or perhaps illogical extension of what California politics has been for the last 30 years, where just about everything ends up as a referendum or an initiative?
MAHER: Yes.
I've lived here in Los Angeles for 20 years. I grew up back East. But I always loved it out here. And I always got my back up when people would make fun of California. It always suffered in comparison to New York. They would say, how can you leave New York? What about the intellectual climate and the artistic climate? And I would say, what about the climate-climate?
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: But every once in a while, I have to admit, yes, we do look fruity and flaky and crazy. And they're right. There is something about -- I think, where it comes from, Aaron, is that people in America, when they're unhappy or cuckoo, they move west and they move west. If you're not happy in New Jersey, go to Cleveland. If you're not happy there, go to Denver.
And they get here to the end and there's nowhere else to be crazy. And so they all get stuck here.
BROWN: Let me ask you, if I may -- and I think I may -- a couple of personal questions. Do you miss doing a daily program?
MAHER: No, I don't. I like...
BROWN: Not at all?
MAHER: No. I like this. I like this once a week. You can put all your energy into making one terrific show, as opposed to five pretty good shows.
When you do an everyday show -- and this was the kind of show I was doing and the kind that Jay and Dave do -- whoever you are, if you're doing it every day, there's no way you can rise to anything close to perfection on a daily basis. It's the same way you could eat a hamburger every day, where you couldn't eat (UNINTELLIGIBLE) seven nights a week, although I hear that you do.
BROWN: I do, every single night, out of a carton. It's takeout.
(LAUGHTER)
MAHER: Oh, is that that cup of soup where you pour the water in and it's
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Absolutely. We all do that here.
Are you at all introspective? Are you an introspective person?
MAHER: I like to think so, yes.
I think, very often, the problem I have is that I analyze stuff too much. I don't have a problem starting my brain. But every night, when I put my head on the pillow, I do have a problem stopping it.
BROWN: And lately, you've just been really hard on the media, which I always save for the last question.
MAHER: Well, I think, in some ways, they deserve it.
BROWN: Why?
MAHER: Because I don't feel that I necessarily am getting the true story.
I remember when Sean Penn went to Iraq and they said, what a traitorous thing to do. And he said: No, no, no, I'm not going over there because I favor Iraq or I don't like America. I'm going over there because this is an important thing and I've got to see it for myself, because I don't trust what they're telling me. I just think, in the old days, people in the media took their job differently. They felt that they were the eyes and ears of people who could not be there. They were performing a service. It was more about, how can I communicate something that somebody can't get any other way? And now it's more like their ego. It's like the news is there to bring you them.
BROWN: Well, we'll continue that.
(CROSSTALK)
MAHER: Or not. But not you. Not you.
BROWN: No, no, I can handle it.
MAHER: Others.
BROWN: OK.
Good luck on the program. I'm a big fan, even after that.
MAHER: Thank you.
BROWN: I'll contemplate whether I remain so.
Thanks a lot. Nice to have you on the program.
MAHER: All right.
BROWN: Bill Maher.
Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: How much money can one person spend? It turns out a lot. Mike Tyson takes it to a new level, earning hundreds of millions, yet spending even more.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A wise man once said, making money is easy; keeping it is hard.
And Mike Tyson is proving the point, which is not to say beating and being beaten in a boxing ring is all that easy. But Mr. Tyson did manage to earn between $300 million and $400 million that way over the last 20 years. Now he says he doesn't have enough to pay all he owes. The idea in itself is mind-boggling, like the premise of a new reality show: Live Fast, Spend Faster.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Let's be fair. World champion boxers, even former champs, have expenses the rest of us don't, like $17 million in taxes owed to two countries or $9 million to settle a divorce. There's $75,000 a year -- that's a year -- for cell phones and pagers and $65,000 for limousines. And Mike Tyson is not just a boxing champion. He's a very generous guy. How else can you describe a man who spends $500,000 in one hour buying jewelry for his friends and more than $400,000 on a birthday party? It's easy to see how a guy like Tyson could easily fall victim to people looking to take advantage of his good nature. That's what Iron Mike says happened when he signed on with Don King, which is why he's suing King, the fight promoter, for $100 million, which could help pay off some of Tyson's debt, which Tyson's bankruptcy attorney says totals about $27 million.
They are a little less definite about his assets, which they estimate at between $10 million and $50 million. Perhaps debt is easier to keep track of. Just add up the bills. Mike says he's been in financial distress, his words, or his lawyer's, for the last five years. Now he wants protection from the courts, from bills for lawyers, financial consultants, jewelers, and insurance companies.
With all those expenses, it's hard to imagine where he found the $8,000 it cost to take care of his tigers.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Clearly, this is something that requires the analysis of an expert in boxing. So we've asked the best one we know, Bert Sugar of "Fight Game" magazine -- and I always think central casting -- to join us. It's nice to see you again.
Well, it's all pretty sad. We can make jokes about it, but there is something almost pathetic now about Mr. Tyson.
BERT SUGAR, BOXING WRITER/HISTORIAN: Well, he's gone from the bizarre to the tragic, really.
And yet one of the costs they didn't show on this that was filed in the Chapter 11 papers, $500,000 to a firm called BLH.
BROWN: This is his financial adviser?
SUGAR: Yes, they did a hell of a job. They not only didn't collect their own money. They didn't help him.
BROWN: This is great advertising for that firm, isn't it?
SUGAR: For any financial adviser. They must be the poster boy.
BROWN: It is one of the things that, honestly, about him I never understood. At various points in his life, he was surrounded by smart, credible people. Certainly, early in his career, he was. What happened?
SUGAR: Many things. I'm not sure Mike either relies on advice or trusts people who give it. Yes, Cus D'Amato, yes, Jimmy Jacobs, when they passed.
And everybody wants to blame Don King. Yes, he probably has a blame in here. But, in all of this, did we hear Mike Tyson even blaming himself? It's almost as if he did nothing again. And, yes, Mike has done something. I've seen him. He's a very profligate spender. You remember the incident a few years back when his Bentley hit another car. He was trying to give the Bentley away. He's done a lot.
Aaron, I just want to put in perspective something; $300 million might gloss over people. It's a lot of zeros. It looks like a telephone number. If the average person makes $1,000 a week, that's $52,000 a year. It would only take them 5,700 years to make and amass $300 million.
BROWN: It's a staggering amount of money. Of that -- this will sound like I'm making a joke -- I'm not -- let's say he made $300 million. How much of that actually did he make, did he get?
SUGAR: I'd say a third of it wasn't his. That's still $200 mil.
BROWN: OK, you could probably work pretty hard and not spend all of that.
Does he have a fight career left? Will people still pay to see him?
SUGAR: People will pay to see him. You've asked two different questions.
BROWN: Got it.
SUGAR: He'll generate the eyeballs out of curiosity, out of tabloid perversity.
BROWN: It's kind of a freak show.
SUGAR: Yes, a lounge act.
Whether he has a career left or not -- he's 37 years old -- I really don't know if he has a big career left, but he certainly can -- maybe the IRS, which is owed $13.5 million, can put on the fight.
BROWN: Who would fight him?
SUGAR: Roy Jones Jr.
BROWN: Because it's a gate?
SUGAR: Evander Holyfield for the third time.
But Mike has to show more interest in a fight than he does in having, say, a fight in a hotel lobby. He's got to sign a contract to get in the ring.
BROWN: Do you think he's -- and I'm mean this actually literally. Do you think he's sick, emotionally?
SUGAR: Mike Tyson is a very smart man, but that's only one of the cells going on up here. I think he's possessed by several demons. He could see "The Three Faces of Eve" or "Sybil" several times. He could get a group discount, Aaron, from the American Psychiatric Association, there's so much going on.
BROWN: Do you like him?
SUGAR: I delight in him as a person. I don't delight in his problems. And I don't delight how he addresses other people and deals with them, because, right now, he's into self-loathing, self-pity. And Larry Holmes 10 years ago said, Mike Tyson will not be alive in five years. The clock is ticking.
BROWN: Yes, it is.
Nice to see you. Thank you.
SUGAR: Aaron, my pleasure.
BROWN: I wish it were happier times, but we enjoy seeing you anyway, Bert Sugar.
SUGAR: My pleasure. Thank you.
BROWN: And we'll check morning papers for you after the break.
This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: It's like the intro from Larry. It's just some things make me laugh easily. And the rooster, whatever the heck that thing is, is one of them.
Time for morning papers, OK, or okeydokey, for those of you who insist I say that every night.
"The New York Times." We'll begin with the, because that's the responsible thing to do. And we want to prove that we are a responsible news program. All the expected stuff, the Indonesia terrorist attack. The gay bishop wins approval. But here's a story that will catch your eye, perhaps, if you see "The Times" tomorrow. "Cancer Drugs Face Funds Cut in a Bush Plan." The Bush administration will soon propose significant cuts in Medicare payments on cancer drugs. I'm sure there's a good reason for that, but I can't think of one. But I'm sure there is one.
"The Daily Camera." This is the newspaper -- this is a cool one. Thank you for getting this. In Boulder, Colorado. Again, the front page pretty much as you would expect, but here's why we called that fine newspaper, because it's the closest newspaper we could find to Eagle. "Eagle Prepares for Bryant Case's Media Onslaught." It's a pretty ugly thing when we move into a town, as we're about to move into Eagle tomorrow for the hearing with Mr. Bryant. And so we thought we'd bring that to you.
"The Washington Times." Again, all the things you expect, the gay bishop, terrorist attack. But I like this one down in the corner. And I would, because I have a 14-year-old daughter. "Poll Shows Teens Value Ties, Time With Family." I would talk to my daughter about this, but she's not speaking to me now. That's not true. Well, actually, it is true, but it's more complicated. I'm sure she'll get over it. I'm making this up.
"The Oregonian." "Portlanders" -- it ought to be Portland Oregonians -- "Give Clinton Rock Star Welcome." This is Mrs. Clinton, Senator Clinton, who was there to sell the book. How we doing on time?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thirty-four.
BROWN: Thank you; 34? He's so precise. Have you noticed that?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Twenty-nine.
BROWN: Twenty-nine. Thank you.
"The Orlando Sentinel." A lot of new papers today. Man, we're going to have to pay that intern something. "Graham's" -- that's Senator Graham -- "Popularity Plunges Below 50." The senator's attacks on President Bush has eroded state support among Republicans.
The weather tomorrow in Chicago is stuffy.
But we're all back here, aren't we, 10:00 Eastern time. We hope you'll be back here, too.
Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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Bombing in Jakarta; Residents of Anniston, Alabama Prepare for the Worst>
