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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Operation Rollback nabs illegal immigrants; NASA Health Scientists Are Worried International Space Station Is Dangerous; Mummy Thought To Be Ramses I Found In Museum In Niagra Falls

Aired October 23, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
We wondered today as we looked at tonight's lead story if we were seeing the first best example of how the shuttle tragedy changed NASA or failed to. We'll leave the details to our expert on these matters, Miles O'Brien, but the broad strokes are easy.

There is concern at NASA that the space station is so worn out that the air might not long be safe to breathe. The space station might not be healthy to live on.

On the one hand two astronauts were sent up anyway. On the other the concerns were leaked and reported this time before any tragedy. Like you, of course, we hope there is no tragedy but if there is one we will not be able to say, nor will NASA, there was no warning.

That's where the program and the whip begins tonight, Miles O'Brien of course, Miles a headline please.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well as you put it, Aaron, some NASA engineers objected but nevertheless NASA gave the go ahead for a space station launch. Is it an echo of previous troubles or is it proof NASA has learned its lesson - Aaron?

BROWN: We'll get to you at the top tonight.

Around the country today federal agents were shopping for illegal aliens at Wal-Mart. Jason Carroll has that story, Jason a headline from you.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Aaron, the question is what did Wal-Mart officials know? Federal investigators say the company hired hundreds of undocumented workers - Aaron.

BROWN: Jason, thank you.

Now to the Pentagon where is Donald Rumsfeld and Jamie McIntyre and Noah Webster, Jamie the headline?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CHIEF PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made a surprise appearance at a routine Pentagon briefing today to defend and downplay his famous memo and the whole thing boiled down to another debate of back and forth over the meaning of a single word "slog."

BROWN: Jamie, nicely done again today. We'll get to you in a bit as well.

And Sacramento finally, the governor, the governor-elect and no hard feelings, Frank Buckley on that, Frank a headline.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, Governor-elect Schwarzenegger came here to Sacramento to meet the man that he humbled on election night, Governor Gray Davis. It was their first face-to- face meeting. It was a chance for Governor-elect Schwarzenegger to get a feel of the place that he's going to be calling the office for the next few years.

BROWN: Frank, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight her case sparked outrage and protest and a law named for her but will Terri Schiavo's law stand up in court, John Zarrella with details on that.

Plus, thousands of years ago he ruled Egypt with an iron fist before retiring to Atlanta, Georgia, the story of how Ramses I wound up in the Peach State.

And then maybe the reason Ramses stuck around so long, morning papers of course, something to crow about, all of that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin with concerns about safety problems aboard the International Space Station and the risks they may or may not pose for the crew. When investigators began looking into the Columbia and the Challenger disasters in addition to the mechanical failures they identified two major problem areas, one that safety concerns raised by midlevel staffers were downplayed and that NASA had no systemic way of assessing risk.

With a new American astronaut in space tonight the worry is those problems have not gone away. Here's CNN's Mile O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Weeks before the new crew for the International Space Station hurdled into orbit on a Russian rocket NASA engineers in Houston tried to stop the launch. They were and are concerned about the air and water quality on the outpost.

BILL LANGDOC, SPACE STATION EINGINEER: I was aware of that and I heard that from my flight surgeon three or four weeks ago but I also understood the context in which that was raised.

O'BRIEN: Incoming station commander Mike Foale says he is not worried about breathing the air or drinking the water up there but some Mission Control engineers aren't so sure. The last air quality sample was taken last December, the water sample last April.

A key air analyzer has failed. Another is nearly dead. Some replacements don't exist or are so bulky they can only be delivered by NASA's shuttle fleet which remains grounded after the loss of Columbia. LANGDOC: The concerns were such that I did not feel that it could go and do that certification and so we raised the issue. Yes we did have a recommendation that said we don't think we're go to fly.

O'BRIEN: Engineer Bill Langdoc was among the environmental experts who last month presented a written dissent to Space Station Chief Bill Gerstenmaier. He says he promised a new effort to look for and possibly remove sources of contamination, an effort to bring air and water samples back by the returning crew on Monday, and look at ways to bring new equipment to space on Russian freighters. Gerstenmaier's boss, NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe is endorsing the decision.er'

(on camera): Do you still fully endorse the decision to launch?

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I spoke to Mike Foale here this afternoon, he and Ed Lu both aboard the International Space Station and their concern, their comment was this is not an issue.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): But is there another issue? The accident board that investigated the loss of Columbia on February 1 was harshly critical of NASA's internal communications. It said dissenting opinions from engineers in the trenches were dismissed.

(on camera): Did NASA learn its lesson?

O'KEEFE: Much of what occurred in this particular case I think is that demonstration of renewed and better communications. I think it's an indication that I take of this that yes we do. We really get it.

LANGDOC: Actually it's a normal process of thinking about what can go wrong, discussing it and then making sure it doesn't go wrong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Part of the reason NASA is willing to take the risk on all this is since February 1 construction has halted at the International Space Station and thus it has been preserved sort of intact, sealed up if you will. So the very same shuttle grounding that is the source of the problem is also in a sense mitigating it -- Aaron.

BROWN: One of the things I read today suggested that part of the juggle here is safety on the one hand and concern that if you don't man the space station something could go terribly wrong up there.

O'BRIEN: Yes, I mean it's fairly well automated but there are still certain things that need to be done with people there and the concern is that if it was left unmanned for a significant period of time some sort of automated system failed it could literally hurdle out of orbit or potentially fall into a situation where you could lose the station entirely so the stakes are fairly high. BROWN: And just one other quick one, were you surprised given your familiarity with the culture of NASA how aggressively NASA moved today to get key players on camera, before cameras to talk about this?

O'BRIEN: I don't think it would have happened before February 1st, Aaron. I think that probably sums it up. It is -- I think there are people there who are getting the message and the fact that these midlevel engineers had their concerns addressed by the head of the space station program in and of itself is a departure from what they did before.

BROWN: Miles, thank you very much, Miles O'Brien with us late tonight.

On to Wal-Mart now and the roundup today of hundreds of undocumented immigrant janitorial workers, to be sure it sheds a somewhat different light on the company's catch phrase, made in America. And given Wal-Mart's obsession with every last detail of its operation it raises questions too about how much executives knew about the people who work there.

Here's CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (voice-over): Immigration officials raided this Wal-Mart store in Shelton, Connecticut early this morning making four arrests. In all they targeted 61 stores from 21 states, arresting more than 250 allegedly undocumented workers.

PATRICIA MANCHA, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Everyone in this country gets due process so if someone is placed in immigration proceedings they have the right to hire an immigration attorney and go through due process.

CARROLL: All of the undocumented workers were members of cleaning crews Wal-Mart had hired through a contractor.

TOM WILLIAMS, WAL-MART SPOKESMAN: We understand that in a number of our stores this morning, early morning hours, third party cleaning crews that Wal-Mart has in place to clean stores after hours, a number of people were arrested as illegal aliens. When we hire these crews it's understood that everybody is a legal workers.

CARROLL: Federal law enforcement sources tell CNN some Wal-Mart managers allegedly had direct knowledge of immigration violations. A company spokeswoman could not confirm that.

Federal sources also tell CNN some information in the government's investigation was gathered through the recording of conversations between store managers and contractor executives. Immigration lawyer Allan Wernick says the government's investigation will come down to who at Wal-Mart knew what and when.

ALLAN WERNICK, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: I think Wal-Mart is probably going to have a brush but they're probably not going to be touched by the paint. I think that they have a right to contract out unless they had actual knowledge that the company they were contracting with was hiring undocumented workers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: The investigation is called Operation Rollback. Most of the arrests took place in Pennsylvania and Texas. Many of the undocumented workers were from Eastern Europe and Mexico. We're also being told that the penalty for knowingly hiring an undocumented worker $10,000 per person -- Aaron.

BROWN: Has the company in any way been charged yet, the third party here not Wal-Mart?

CARROLL: Not yet. Wal-Mart says that they use anywhere between several dozen to 100 of these contractors so as you can imagine it's going to be a lengthy process in terms of trying to lock down exactly which contractors are being used or which contractors misuse some of these undocumented workers.

BROWN: Jason, thank you very much, Jason Carroll.

Now to the Pentagon, the memo, and a question of what's in a word. It would be easy to toss it off as what one man who once asked a similar question might call much ado about nothing but Shakespeare better than most knew that words matter because they express what the writer thinks.

And in this case what the writer thinks has a bearing on the lives of a lot of young men and women and billions of dollars as well, so the sparring at the Pentagon today was probably good fun but there's a backdrop to it as well.

Here again, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Just what did the secretary mean when he wrote in his now public private memo that Iraq and Afghanistan will be a long, hard slog? During a surprise appearance at a Pentagon briefing, Rumsfeld read a definition he liked from the Oxford English Dictionary.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Slog, to hit or strike hard, to drive with blows, to assail violently and that's precisely what the U.S. has been doing and intends to continue to do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that what you thought it meant when you wrote it?

RUMSFELD: It's close enough for government work.

MCINTYRE (on camera): Is it implying you would have to be disputatious. The American Heritage Dictionary...

RUMSFELD: There are a lot of different definitions. I know that.

MCINTYRE: Well, it says its preferred definition, to walk or progress with a slow, heavy place, plod as in slog across the swamp.

RUMSFELD: Right, I've seen that one. I read the one I liked.

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Rumsfeld said the memo, while private, was not classified and he insists its release, however unintended, provides a good framework for discussion.

RUMSFELD: I reread the memo in the paper and thought, not bad.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon won't investigate the leak but acknowledged it chagrinned a memo to Rumsfeld's four most trusted advisers so quickly ended up on the front page of "USA Today." Rumsfeld's theory, his advisers forwarded the memo to their lower level staff.

RUMSFELD: One of the people it was circulated to obviously thought I'd issued it as a press release which I might add was not the case.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: And the spin today at the Pentagon was that the memo far from revealing some private pessimism in fact showed Rumsfeld as a realist who has his eye on the ball. In fact, the joke among Rumsfeld's aides today was that they were all squabbling among themselves trying to take credit for the release of the memo which is now being portrayed as a public relations coup -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, I guess you can spin this a lot of ways and to me the question has always been what do they really think there? Do they think that this is all nastier in Afghanistan and particularly Iraq than they are saying in public? Do you have any sense that they believe that?

MCINTYRE: Well, I think they think it's nastier than maybe people believe they're saying in public. Rumsfeld went to some pains today to try to point out that he believes he has presented a balanced picture that he's never pretended that the war on global terror, and that's what he's talking about not just Iraq and Afghanistan, was going to be long and hard and he said anybody who thought differently was, in his words, inattentive at his briefings.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you very much, nice job there today, pulling out the dictionary yet again, nicely done.

On to California where the tax raising inept no (UNINTELLIGIBLE) met today with the arrogant interloper who would ruin democracy forever only this time it was just Arnold and Gray working on a transition from one to the other. Governor-elect Schwarzeneger and Governor Davis acting suspiciously like Simon and Garfunkel in the happy years.

Again, here's Frank Buckley. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY (voice-over): They ripped each other during the campaign but Arnold Schwarzenegger said there are no hard feelings between him and Gray Davis now that the campaign is over.

GOVERNOR-ELECT ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: Absolutely not. I have to say that the governor has been very gracious and has been absolutely fantastic.

BUCKLEY: But Davis who became only the second governor to be recalled in the U.S. in 80 years sounded wistful about his final days in office.

GOVERNOR GRAY DAVIS (D), CALIFORNIA: Life is like a relay race. We each run our part of the race as well as we can and then we pass the baton to the next person.

BUCKLEY: The political combatants were so gracious and cordial in their first transition meeting that later a microphone even picked up Schwarzenegger suggesting a future meeting at a Hollywood hot spot.

Mr. Schwarzenegger goes to Sacramento. It had a movie premiere quality to it. Schwarzenegger followed by cameras and reporters and fans every step of the way. Schwarzenegger also met with the legislative leaders during his relationship building visit trying to find common ground no matter how far away it was from Sacramento.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

SCHWARZENEGGER: Oh, yes, and he goes to Austria periodically and has the good wiernerschnitzel and all that stuff. There are things that we can build on.

BUCKLEY: Schwarzenegger the candidate promised to clean up Sacramento when he got here and to eliminate the increase in the car license fee while keeping education spending intact and keeping taxes where they are. Can he do it?

The Senate President pro tem John Burton, the guy munching the celery is an old Sacramento hand who doesn't mince words and he doesn't think the governor-elect can do it.

SEN. JOHN BURTON (D), CALIFORNIA STATE SENATE LEADER: If I was a betting man I'd say it's about three to one against, but underdogs do win.

BUCKLEY: While Schwarzenegger remained optimistic he also cautioned Californians after a meeting with the state treasurer to be realistic about a movie star governor-elect and his ability to make change quickly.

SCHWARZENEGGER: I've played very, very heroic characters in the movies, but you can't expect me to walk in to this office and all of a sudden come out with the answers. I mean it will take a while to really solve those problems. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY: And Governor-elect Schwarzenegger will have a chance to take on some of those problems, some of those issues facing California very soon, transition team officials, Aaron, telling us today that they believe that the swearing ceremony will be around November 17 -- Aaron.

BROWN: Now, Frank, how much of his governing staff has been put together?

BUCKLEY: Well, so far a chief of staff for the transition team has been named. That was a key role, Pat Clary. She is a former deputy chief of staff under Pete Wilson.

That's a key role but there are still hundreds of jobs that need to be filled in the new administration and one of the transition team officials told me that they've asked people to send in their resumes, their CVs on the web and they've received over 6,000 so they've got a lot to go through right now to try to pick out all those jobs.

BROWN: Frank, thank you very much again, Frank Buckley he's out in Sacramento, California.

Ahead on the program tonight, giving the governor the power to save someone who might not even want to be saved; back to Florida for that.

And it's small but it's valuable, why the Democratic hopefuls are pushing hard in New Hampshire.

On CNN this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Terri Schiavo's father visited his daughter today and, as he often does, he gave her a little kiss on the cheek. That's when he says she said "uh uh." When he asked her if she wanted him to kiss her again he says she said again "uh uh."

To the doctor we had on the program last night and to others who have examined her this is nothing more than a reflex but to her dad, Bob Schindler, it is yet another reason to believe the Florida legislature made the right decision when it passed a law to keep her alive.

But in doing so, lawmakers in effect overrode the judgment of the doctors and of a number of state courts, the first raising ethical concerns, the second bumping up against the Constitution, federal and state.

Here's CNN's John Zarrella.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): As they debated passing the new law, Florida's legislators knew Terri's bill might be unconstitutional.

SEN. ANNA COWIN (R), LEESBURG, FLORIDA: And when we are in doubt, as many of us are, let us err on the part of not condemning this woman to a painful death that she consciously can feel.

SEN. ALEX VILLALOBOS (R), MIAMI: I believe that this bill, if I were to vote for it, is unconstitutional and I just can't bring myself to do that.

ZARRELLA: But other legislators could in less than 24 hours writing, voting, and sending Terri's bill to Governor Jeb Bush. The governor who said for weeks he wanted to help Schiavo says the bill was not driven by politics.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This was the right thing to do and the courts will make the determination. It's on appeal as I understand it and they'll make the determination of the constitutionality but we did what was right and I'm proud of the legislature for responding.

ZARRELLA: The law gave the governor the authority to issue a one time stay to prevent the withholding of nutrition and hydration from a patient if the patient has no written advance direction, the court has found that patient to be in a persistent vegetative state, the patient has had nutrition and hydration withheld.

And, the governor's authority to issue stays expires 15 days after the bill took effect. In other words, it's a one time only law which in and of itself, legal experts say, is unconstitutional.

CHRISTOPHER CHOPIN, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The way the law looks at it, if you and I don't have the same law applying to us something is unconstitutional.

ZARRELLA: The attorney for Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, says he will challenge the law on that basis.

(on camera): But any challenge will likely take months to work its way through the courts and could ultimately end up before the U.S. Supreme Court taking much longer than it took for the legislature and the governor to pass and sign the Terri Schiavo bill.

John Zarrella CNN, Pinellas Park, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: With us now in Gainesville, Florida, Lars Noah who teaches law at the University of Florida, nice to see you.

LARS NOAH, PROFESSOR OF LAW, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA: Thank you.

BROWN: I got to be honest, I spent a fair amount of the day looking for someone who would say to us the law is fine and it will stand up and we couldn't. Everybody seems to agree this thing is going nowhere, why? NOAH: Well there are any number of reasons why a court might find constitutional difficulties with this law. John's interviews I think pointed out that there are equal protection and due process issues. This is targeted legislation. It's applied retroactively.

I think actually the easiest basis for concluding that there's a constitutional concern and really the most worrisome aspect of this entire episode is the separation of powers problem.

This is an instance where the legislature has in effect taken it upon itself, and the executive branch has as well, to intrude on a judicial function and that is something that under the state Constitution just like the federal Constitution is clearly inappropriate.

BROWN: Let's talk about this for a second. Here is a -- you had a court rule in the particular case of Ms. Schiavo and this law deals with that specific ruling instead of the broader issue, correct, of when life can be terminated?

NOAH: It would have been entirely appropriate indeed it would have been the correct thing for the legislature to look into the question of whether state law should be modified in the wake of this controversy.

But more than a decade ago the legislature in the state of Florida, as is true in many states, enacted very comprehensive legislation specifying standards that would be used in cases like this in the absence of a living will, the priority of different healthcare proxies and how it would go through a legislative process with certain standards of proof involved.

All of that has been satisfied in this case except, of course, to the satisfaction of the losing parties and they've decided in effect that they're going to pursue this litigation by other means.

BROWN: Ms. Schiavo's case has become a cause for many who oppose the right to die, if you will, the right to end someone's life. Do you think as I guess many people do that what the legislature did was sort of cynical that it was just playing to the politics of the moment?

NOAH: That's certainly one interpretation, although as the legislators who were interviewed in your piece beforehand explained, I think some of them quite sincerely believed that what they were doing was entirely appropriate in this case.

But it's worrisome because, again, the state legislature is on record very clearly when it enacted this legislation I described more than ten years ago that patients in similar circumstances had a privacy-based right to refuse life-sustaining care.

We have a special constitutional right to privacy provision in this state in contrast to the federal Constitution and we have decisional law in this state that very clearly establishes the right of an adult patient to choose to discontinue life-sustaining care. So, it may be that the state legislature now believes that those positions were troublesome that a majority of Floridians may oppose those or may at least want to ratchet up the standards before allowing proxies to make those choices on behalf of an incompetent patient but that's precisely what they failed to do in this instance.

Instead, it's essentially a legislative gerrymander where they have enacted legislation whose sole purpose is to deal with this particular very symbolic dispute in a way that perhaps some of the members of the state legislature and the governor's office view as a political opportunity. I think that would be a terrible tragedy if this is what this is all about.

BROWN: Professor thanks for your time and your thoughts tonight. Lars Noah, professor of law at the University of Florida, thank you.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT ahead forget about Iowa, wait you can't do that can you? Well, you can't prevent nine Democratic candidates one small state, the importance of being New Hampshire.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Sometimes we do this. Earlier this week, we ran a Jeff Greenfield spot on why the conventional wisdom may well be wrong on the importance of winning the New Hampshire primary. On the other hand, maybe it is the great momentum builder on the road to the White House.

Dan Lothian tonight on the campaign in New Hampshire, the first- in-the-nation primary.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The changing of seasons in New Hampshire means cold weather is on the way. But the political climate is just heating up. On television, former Vermont Governor Howard Dean has launched tough ads criticizing his Democratic rivals on health care and, as he sees it, inconsistencies on the war in Iraq.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The best my opponents can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before they supported the war.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LOTHIAN: Political experts say, in the 2004 presidential primary race, this battleground state is more important than ever.

ANDREW SMITH, UNIV. OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: Both because Iowa's been somewhat diminished by Clark and Lieberman dropping out of that camp -- contest. Plus, the front-loaded nature of the rest of the primaries.

LOTHIAN: In other words, a win here on January 27 means huge momentum going into seven primaries a week later.

That's why retired General Wesley Clark is campaigning for the second time in the Granite State since getting into the race five weeks ago -- and why all nine Democratic candidates are expected to spend considerable time here over the next three months.

State Democratic Chairperson Kathleen Sullivan says winning the hearts of voters will mean stumping on more than just issues and promises.

KATHLEEN SULLIVAN, NEW HAMPSHIRE DEMOCRATIC CHAIR: You now have to convince the Democratic base that you can win. The Democrats in New Hampshire want a candidate who will defeat George Bush.

LOTHIAN: The latest polls show former Vermont Governor Howard Dean leading in the state. In "The Concord Monitor" poll, 33 percent of likely Democratic voters are supporting Dean; 18 percent for Massachusetts Senator John Kerry; 14 percent for Clark. The rest of the field is in single digits.

But there is one other critical number. As students at the University of New Hampshire found out, 20 percent of the voters here are undecided.

SMITH: It tells me that the Democratic electorate in the state still isn't particularly happy with the candidates.

LOTHIAN: The problem?

SULLIVAN: There really is not such significant differences that you could not support any one of them.

LOTHIAN (on camera): Political strategists say the battle to win the undecided could be the difference for top-tier candidates, who are working to stand out in a crowded field on the way to the White House.

Dan Lothian, CNN, Manchester, New Hampshire.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few more items, quickly, before we head to break, starting with wildfires in Southern California, this one in the San Bernardino National Forest. We're heading that way tomorrow. It triggered evacuations today, about 1,000 homes cleared. So far, though, the flames have stayed away from those homes, thankfully. The fire is one of several burning in Southern California tonight. One of them threatens a portion of Camp Pendleton, the giant Marine base.

Washington, D.C. next: senators giving themselves a pay raise, a small one, about 2 percent, bringing their annual pay to $158,000. To be precise, the raise comes automatically each year. Today's vote defeated a measure to change the system. And seven months after the bombing campaign, the Patent Office reports a flood of amount cases to use the phrase for products. There are filings to trademark golf clubs, action toys, coffee-makers, even Shock and Awe condoms.

Still to come tonight: the case of the missing mummy, what one of the most powerful of all the Egyptian pharaohs is doing in Atlanta, Georgia. We wonder, too.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the general, religion, and should he stay or go? Plus, of course, morning papers and the obligatory mummy story.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, is famously capable of both sticking his foot in his mouth and creatively pulling it back out again. But this ability isn't so easily transferred, it seems, to others in the chain of command.

Take the case of General William Jerry Boykin, who, in a speech to Christian groups, implied that Muslims worshiped an idol -- other things said there, too. A subsequent apology, his request for the inspector general to investigate haven't done much to quiet down the protests over the remarks.

So the question on the table tonight, should the general be removed or does he have the right to express his opinions, no matter what those opinions might be? Though we would argue it is a bit more complicated than that, too.

Joining us now to talk about all of this, Ralph Peters, retired lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army. His most recent book is entitled "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War & Peace." And also joining us, Cliff May, from the Foundation For the Defense of Democracies. They're both in Washington and they're both welcome.

Mr. May, why don't we start with you?

You think the general is getting a bad rap here.

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I think that may be so.

And I'm sorry. I've got an echo here.

Look, I think it's very serious to accuse Somebody of anti-Muslim bias or anti-Semitism or anti-Christian bias. And, Aaron, what you just said is that he compared Muslims to idol worshipers. I don't think that's what he did. I think he's talking about the people he fights every day. He's talking about terrorists, people who have adopted an ideology that is not Islam, although they claim to act in the name of Islam.

I think he -- I think, from the excerpts we have, it's simply not fair to conclude -- and he has said that he is not anti-Islamic. And I don't think he's said what he has been purported to have said.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Well, let's work on the echo program.

Let me go to Lieutenant Colonel Peters here for a second.

Just briefly, Ralph, make the case that he ought to go.

RET. LT. COL. RALPH PETERS, U.S. ARMY: Well, Aaron, this is actually personal for me, because, several years ago, as a serving officer, with a successful career, I decided that there were things I wanted to write and say that were controversial and shouldn't really be said by a serving officer. Not appropriate.

So I made the decision -- and a tough one -- to retire, to take my uniform off, so I could speak freely. Now, General Boykin can take his uniform off at any time and say whatever he wants. But he cannot say things prejudicial to good order and discipline or things that are, frankly, controversial and uncleared and accusatory while he's in uniform.

But, Aaron, even more importantly, this man isn't a captain of a tank company at Fort Hood. He is the deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence. And what deeply troubles me is, in a time we're facing such challenges in the Muslim world, around the world, that this man would suggest that Muslims are idol worshipers, that shows he knows nothing about Islam.

And then he talks about seeing Satan's face in the clouds. We need intelligence officers who see reality on earth, not Satan's face in the clouds. So he sounds to me, hate to say, like a foolish man who said some very foolish things.

BROWN: Let me go back to Mr. May for a second.

I just -- I think it's fair to kind of argue about what he meant. But just the context that I heard the Somali comment in, he said that this warlord said to him, he knew he would be safe because Allah protected him, to which he said: I think he was wrong, because my God is the real God. His God is an idol.

Are you sure that that -- are you still sure of your position?

MAY: Let me remind you who he was talking about. He was talking about what you call or may be called a warlord.

But this was somebody who was going around stealing food that Americans were trying to give to starving people. This was somebody who was sending -- if you remember "Black Hawk Down," the movie or the book -- sending women out with a baby in one hand and AK-47 in the other to kill Americans. This was somebody, these were the people who were dragging American soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu.

I think that anybody who believes that such people represent Islam is committing a terrible insult to a great faith. I don't think that's what he meant at all. I think he meant this criminal -- who, by the way, we now know was probably al Qaeda trained -- all these guys are -- not al Qaeda, but bin Laden. That was before the formulation of al Qaeda -- but was trained like that.

I think he may have been saying that these guys that he was fighting in Somalia, they pray to a false God. I do not think he was saying -- he was making this comment about Turkish Sufis or about Muslims in Detroit or about our Kurdish allies.

BROWN: Cliff, just as a practical matter, as a practical matter, much of the Muslim world has now heard all of this. They are -- we are told this came up with the president yesterday.

So, as a practical matter, then, fair or not, should the guy stay or go?

MAY: Well, as a practical matter, let's understand that when somebody from "The L.A. Times" goes and tapes this guy and will only release excerpts, not the full context, not the full text of what he said, and then it's misreported all over the press, as if we simply know that he wasn't talking about the terrorists he fights, but all Islam, a terrible disservice is being done to this man, very unfair, and to the country in general.

Now, I don't disagree with what Colonel Peters is saying. I think somebody in uniform or somebody who works for State or Defense, he doesn't have the same free speech rights that you and I do. He has to keep to the looking points. And this general absolutely should have had a media adviser or a press secretary or a speechwriter. And maybe he's ruined at this point, because, look, what we do right now, it's very dangerous stuff, like going out and fighting terrorists, because you can put your foot in your mouth.

But I think it's unfair for us to all simply assume that this is an example of anti-Islamic bigotry, when I think he was probably only talking about militant Islam, jihadists, totalitarian Muslims.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry. Let me give Ralph the last word here.

Do you think that the damage, essentially, has been done, that there's no way to salvage this career of what is otherwise a very -- considered to be a very fine officer?

PETERS: Well, he may have been a good soldier on the operational level. I have to wonder why he's in this intelligence position.

And, again, Aaron, I'm just troubled by the fact that the highest-ranking uniform in -- supposedly, intelligence officer or intelligence adviser on the SecDef's staff has no idea about Islam. Now, there is much we can criticize about the Islamic world or the Middle East, from the oppression of women, to the bigotry. And I'm not shy about that.

But this man was wrong in his facts. And he's at too high a level to be wrong in his facts. There's something terribly wrong. He sounds incompetent. And, by the way, again, I go back to the fact that he is free as a citizen to say what he wants, but take off the uniform. He disgraced the uniform.

BROWN: Got it. Point made, both of you. Thank you. Nicely done tonight. Thank you.

PETERS: Thank you.

MAY: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Quickly, a few more stories here before we go to break, a bit more on Iraq and who is going to pay to rebuild it. That is one of them. First stop here, Madrid, the U.N. conference for the Iraqis and American officials are meeting with potential donors. The secretary of state was there, downplaying the chances of securing the $36 billion he says will be needed, in addition to the $20 billion the United States intends to provide.

The Senate today went up against the president, members of the Senate voting 59-26 to bar the use of money to enforce the travel ban to Cuba. The House already passed a similar measure. The White House is threatening to veto it, says the travel ban is necessary.

Finally New York for the first part of the last journey of the Concorde, at least for paying passengers. The British Airways jet, the only supersonic airliner still flying, touched down this evening at Kennedy International. It departs tomorrow for Heathrow in London and then on to the history books. A more graceful bird, we think there never was. Not the most comfortable ride, maybe, but it sure did feel like you were flying -- the Concorde.

Up ahead: wrapping up an ancient mystery. OK, that was a bad one. Still, a story about a missing mummy and its long journey home.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Without a doubt, the oddest passenger going through Atlanta's Hartsfield Airport tomorrow will be the pharaoh, Pharaoh Ramses I, that is. Pharaoh Ramses is returning to his home in Egypt after an extended tour that included a stop in Niagara Falls. If you happen to be in the airport tomorrow, we think you will not be able to miss it. He is the one who is 3,000 years old.

Here is NEWSNIGHT's Catherine Mitchell.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CATHERINE MITCHELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ancient Egyptians believed that to speak the name of the dead is to keep the spirit alive.

PETER LACOVARA, MICHAEL C. CARLOS MUSEUM: The best thing possible for Ramses I, that we have reassociated his name with his body, which means his spirit can once again live.

MITCHELL: The father of Egypt's golden age, Ramses I, was buried in 1291 B.C. in the Valley of the Kings with all the trappings of royalty. But, today, his tomb lies empty and experts say he lies in Atlanta, Georgia.

LACOVARA: This is the mummy that we think is the mummy of Ramses I, the founder of the 19th Dynasty. In over 100 years, it's the first discovery of a royal mummy, and not in Egypt, but in Niagara Falls. So it's an interesting story.

MITCHELL: Yes, you heard right, Niagara Falls, because that's where Atlanta's Carlos Museum purchased a collection of mummies in 1999 from a so-called freak museum, where the royal mummy spent the last 100 or so years in obscurity. Records of a link between this museum and a family of tomb-robbers produced the strongest clue.

LACOVARA: The most exciting link was discovering in Canada the record that the Niagara Falls people had purchased the collection and this mummy from the dealer who was working with the Abd el Rasul family who, of course, had found the cache of royal mummies.

MITCHELL: But archaeologists like scientific proof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This hole here seems to be the remains of the embalming scar.

MITCHELL: DNA testing was deemed too destructive. But using radiocarbon dating and medical imaging, Dr. Lacovara and a team of Emory researchers say they have found evidence that the mummy is almost certainly the long lost pharaoh.

LACOVARA: The crossed arms, of course, over his chest, which is a position reserved only for royal mummies. And then there are details that suggest a royal mummy of the early 19th Dynasty, including this kind of fine linen packing at the neck and in the abdomen, and then, of course, the use of sort of resin inside and out, which was a very expensive commodity, and then the sort of profile, his hooked nose. It's a family characteristic. You can see it on Seti and on Ramses II. There is a pretty strong family resemblance.

MITCHELL: But it wasn't until the ultimate skeptic, Egyptian antiquities minister, Zahi Hawass, paid a visit to Egyptian that Dr. Lacovara's theory was validated.

DR. ZAHI HAWASS, SECRETARY GENERAL, EGYPT'S SUPREME COUNCIL ON ANTIQUITIES: When I first entered and my eyes looked at it, I could smell that he is a pharaoh. MITCHELL: And according to the Carlos Museum, a pharaoh belongs in Egypt. After a long journey, the royal mummy is finally going home, a homecoming Dr. Lacovara says is fitting.

LACOVARA: It is a pretty strange saga, that he would sort of come from the Valley of the Kings up to Niagara Falls and then down to Atlanta and then back to Egypt. The Egyptians did believe that they would have a sort of long journey through the underworld after their death. So I guess he maybe wouldn't be quite so surprised.

MITCHELL: Catherine Mitchell, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Take a break, and tomorrow morning's papers when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydokey, time to check morning papers from around the country.

We'll start with "USA Today." If you're around the country, if you're traveling, this you'll find this at your hotel, unless you stay at a really pricey hotel, where they will give you another paper. "USA Today." Here we go. "Wal-Mart Cleaners Arrested in Sweep That Targets Illegal Workers in 21 States." Also "USA Today," down at the bottom, "Beef Prices On the Way Up. Canadian Import Ban, Demand Cited." And one of those really cute -- can you get this? -- "USA Today" graphics right in the center there. It's one of the reasons we love the paper so much. And a reminder that daylight savings time ends and depression begins on Sunday morning at 2:00.

"Washington Times" got an exclusive interview with the secretary of defense and leads with it. "Rumsfeld Sets Strategy in War of Ideas. Secretary Denies Any Pressure to Fire General." Well, there's clearly pressure. Whether he's feeling it or not, I don't know. Also on the front page of "The Washington Times": "Gay Canon Defends Role in Church, Says He Can Control Exodus." This is Bishop Gene Robinson. "The Washington Times" front-pages story a fair amount.

"The Virginian Pilot" out in North Carolina. This is a great picture, but I'm not sure you'll be able to tell: "Putting Hatteras Back Together." One side, October 17, after Hurricane Isabel. And here's October 23. And how much difference a week makes. It's kind of a cool picture and a nice idea of a story.

How we doing on time, Terry (ph)? Thirty? Oh, my goodness.

"The Virginian." I'm sorry. "The Richmond Times-Dispatch." Well, it was close to "The Virginian," Aaron. "Solemn Tribute Paid to 241 Victims." This is Beirut and the monument for those fine soldiers -- Marines, actually.

"Chicago Sun-Times," the weather is "blah." "U.S. Detain Nearly All the Men in an Iraq Village." This is an AP story, I believe.

We're off to California tomorrow to talk with former President Jerry Ford, the last surviving member of the Warren Commission, for a program on John F. Kennedy's -- the 40th anniversary of his death. We'll see you again on Monday.

Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

END

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Scientists Are Worried International Space Station Is Dangerous; Mummy Thought To Be Ramses I Found In Museum In Niagra Falls>


Aired October 23, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
We wondered today as we looked at tonight's lead story if we were seeing the first best example of how the shuttle tragedy changed NASA or failed to. We'll leave the details to our expert on these matters, Miles O'Brien, but the broad strokes are easy.

There is concern at NASA that the space station is so worn out that the air might not long be safe to breathe. The space station might not be healthy to live on.

On the one hand two astronauts were sent up anyway. On the other the concerns were leaked and reported this time before any tragedy. Like you, of course, we hope there is no tragedy but if there is one we will not be able to say, nor will NASA, there was no warning.

That's where the program and the whip begins tonight, Miles O'Brien of course, Miles a headline please.

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well as you put it, Aaron, some NASA engineers objected but nevertheless NASA gave the go ahead for a space station launch. Is it an echo of previous troubles or is it proof NASA has learned its lesson - Aaron?

BROWN: We'll get to you at the top tonight.

Around the country today federal agents were shopping for illegal aliens at Wal-Mart. Jason Carroll has that story, Jason a headline from you.

JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Aaron, the question is what did Wal-Mart officials know? Federal investigators say the company hired hundreds of undocumented workers - Aaron.

BROWN: Jason, thank you.

Now to the Pentagon where is Donald Rumsfeld and Jamie McIntyre and Noah Webster, Jamie the headline?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN CHIEF PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld made a surprise appearance at a routine Pentagon briefing today to defend and downplay his famous memo and the whole thing boiled down to another debate of back and forth over the meaning of a single word "slog."

BROWN: Jamie, nicely done again today. We'll get to you in a bit as well.

And Sacramento finally, the governor, the governor-elect and no hard feelings, Frank Buckley on that, Frank a headline.

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, Governor-elect Schwarzenegger came here to Sacramento to meet the man that he humbled on election night, Governor Gray Davis. It was their first face-to- face meeting. It was a chance for Governor-elect Schwarzenegger to get a feel of the place that he's going to be calling the office for the next few years.

BROWN: Frank, thank you, back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight her case sparked outrage and protest and a law named for her but will Terri Schiavo's law stand up in court, John Zarrella with details on that.

Plus, thousands of years ago he ruled Egypt with an iron fist before retiring to Atlanta, Georgia, the story of how Ramses I wound up in the Peach State.

And then maybe the reason Ramses stuck around so long, morning papers of course, something to crow about, all of that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin with concerns about safety problems aboard the International Space Station and the risks they may or may not pose for the crew. When investigators began looking into the Columbia and the Challenger disasters in addition to the mechanical failures they identified two major problem areas, one that safety concerns raised by midlevel staffers were downplayed and that NASA had no systemic way of assessing risk.

With a new American astronaut in space tonight the worry is those problems have not gone away. Here's CNN's Mile O'Brien.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN (voice-over): Weeks before the new crew for the International Space Station hurdled into orbit on a Russian rocket NASA engineers in Houston tried to stop the launch. They were and are concerned about the air and water quality on the outpost.

BILL LANGDOC, SPACE STATION EINGINEER: I was aware of that and I heard that from my flight surgeon three or four weeks ago but I also understood the context in which that was raised.

O'BRIEN: Incoming station commander Mike Foale says he is not worried about breathing the air or drinking the water up there but some Mission Control engineers aren't so sure. The last air quality sample was taken last December, the water sample last April.

A key air analyzer has failed. Another is nearly dead. Some replacements don't exist or are so bulky they can only be delivered by NASA's shuttle fleet which remains grounded after the loss of Columbia. LANGDOC: The concerns were such that I did not feel that it could go and do that certification and so we raised the issue. Yes we did have a recommendation that said we don't think we're go to fly.

O'BRIEN: Engineer Bill Langdoc was among the environmental experts who last month presented a written dissent to Space Station Chief Bill Gerstenmaier. He says he promised a new effort to look for and possibly remove sources of contamination, an effort to bring air and water samples back by the returning crew on Monday, and look at ways to bring new equipment to space on Russian freighters. Gerstenmaier's boss, NASA Administrator Sean O'Keefe is endorsing the decision.er'

(on camera): Do you still fully endorse the decision to launch?

SEAN O'KEEFE, NASA ADMINISTRATOR: Absolutely. As a matter of fact, I spoke to Mike Foale here this afternoon, he and Ed Lu both aboard the International Space Station and their concern, their comment was this is not an issue.

O'BRIEN (voice-over): But is there another issue? The accident board that investigated the loss of Columbia on February 1 was harshly critical of NASA's internal communications. It said dissenting opinions from engineers in the trenches were dismissed.

(on camera): Did NASA learn its lesson?

O'KEEFE: Much of what occurred in this particular case I think is that demonstration of renewed and better communications. I think it's an indication that I take of this that yes we do. We really get it.

LANGDOC: Actually it's a normal process of thinking about what can go wrong, discussing it and then making sure it doesn't go wrong.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Part of the reason NASA is willing to take the risk on all this is since February 1 construction has halted at the International Space Station and thus it has been preserved sort of intact, sealed up if you will. So the very same shuttle grounding that is the source of the problem is also in a sense mitigating it -- Aaron.

BROWN: One of the things I read today suggested that part of the juggle here is safety on the one hand and concern that if you don't man the space station something could go terribly wrong up there.

O'BRIEN: Yes, I mean it's fairly well automated but there are still certain things that need to be done with people there and the concern is that if it was left unmanned for a significant period of time some sort of automated system failed it could literally hurdle out of orbit or potentially fall into a situation where you could lose the station entirely so the stakes are fairly high. BROWN: And just one other quick one, were you surprised given your familiarity with the culture of NASA how aggressively NASA moved today to get key players on camera, before cameras to talk about this?

O'BRIEN: I don't think it would have happened before February 1st, Aaron. I think that probably sums it up. It is -- I think there are people there who are getting the message and the fact that these midlevel engineers had their concerns addressed by the head of the space station program in and of itself is a departure from what they did before.

BROWN: Miles, thank you very much, Miles O'Brien with us late tonight.

On to Wal-Mart now and the roundup today of hundreds of undocumented immigrant janitorial workers, to be sure it sheds a somewhat different light on the company's catch phrase, made in America. And given Wal-Mart's obsession with every last detail of its operation it raises questions too about how much executives knew about the people who work there.

Here's CNN's Jason Carroll.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL (voice-over): Immigration officials raided this Wal-Mart store in Shelton, Connecticut early this morning making four arrests. In all they targeted 61 stores from 21 states, arresting more than 250 allegedly undocumented workers.

PATRICIA MANCHA, IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT: Everyone in this country gets due process so if someone is placed in immigration proceedings they have the right to hire an immigration attorney and go through due process.

CARROLL: All of the undocumented workers were members of cleaning crews Wal-Mart had hired through a contractor.

TOM WILLIAMS, WAL-MART SPOKESMAN: We understand that in a number of our stores this morning, early morning hours, third party cleaning crews that Wal-Mart has in place to clean stores after hours, a number of people were arrested as illegal aliens. When we hire these crews it's understood that everybody is a legal workers.

CARROLL: Federal law enforcement sources tell CNN some Wal-Mart managers allegedly had direct knowledge of immigration violations. A company spokeswoman could not confirm that.

Federal sources also tell CNN some information in the government's investigation was gathered through the recording of conversations between store managers and contractor executives. Immigration lawyer Allan Wernick says the government's investigation will come down to who at Wal-Mart knew what and when.

ALLAN WERNICK, IMMIGRATION ATTORNEY: I think Wal-Mart is probably going to have a brush but they're probably not going to be touched by the paint. I think that they have a right to contract out unless they had actual knowledge that the company they were contracting with was hiring undocumented workers.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: The investigation is called Operation Rollback. Most of the arrests took place in Pennsylvania and Texas. Many of the undocumented workers were from Eastern Europe and Mexico. We're also being told that the penalty for knowingly hiring an undocumented worker $10,000 per person -- Aaron.

BROWN: Has the company in any way been charged yet, the third party here not Wal-Mart?

CARROLL: Not yet. Wal-Mart says that they use anywhere between several dozen to 100 of these contractors so as you can imagine it's going to be a lengthy process in terms of trying to lock down exactly which contractors are being used or which contractors misuse some of these undocumented workers.

BROWN: Jason, thank you very much, Jason Carroll.

Now to the Pentagon, the memo, and a question of what's in a word. It would be easy to toss it off as what one man who once asked a similar question might call much ado about nothing but Shakespeare better than most knew that words matter because they express what the writer thinks.

And in this case what the writer thinks has a bearing on the lives of a lot of young men and women and billions of dollars as well, so the sparring at the Pentagon today was probably good fun but there's a backdrop to it as well.

Here again, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Just what did the secretary mean when he wrote in his now public private memo that Iraq and Afghanistan will be a long, hard slog? During a surprise appearance at a Pentagon briefing, Rumsfeld read a definition he liked from the Oxford English Dictionary.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Slog, to hit or strike hard, to drive with blows, to assail violently and that's precisely what the U.S. has been doing and intends to continue to do.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that what you thought it meant when you wrote it?

RUMSFELD: It's close enough for government work.

MCINTYRE (on camera): Is it implying you would have to be disputatious. The American Heritage Dictionary...

RUMSFELD: There are a lot of different definitions. I know that.

MCINTYRE: Well, it says its preferred definition, to walk or progress with a slow, heavy place, plod as in slog across the swamp.

RUMSFELD: Right, I've seen that one. I read the one I liked.

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Rumsfeld said the memo, while private, was not classified and he insists its release, however unintended, provides a good framework for discussion.

RUMSFELD: I reread the memo in the paper and thought, not bad.

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon won't investigate the leak but acknowledged it chagrinned a memo to Rumsfeld's four most trusted advisers so quickly ended up on the front page of "USA Today." Rumsfeld's theory, his advisers forwarded the memo to their lower level staff.

RUMSFELD: One of the people it was circulated to obviously thought I'd issued it as a press release which I might add was not the case.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: And the spin today at the Pentagon was that the memo far from revealing some private pessimism in fact showed Rumsfeld as a realist who has his eye on the ball. In fact, the joke among Rumsfeld's aides today was that they were all squabbling among themselves trying to take credit for the release of the memo which is now being portrayed as a public relations coup -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, I guess you can spin this a lot of ways and to me the question has always been what do they really think there? Do they think that this is all nastier in Afghanistan and particularly Iraq than they are saying in public? Do you have any sense that they believe that?

MCINTYRE: Well, I think they think it's nastier than maybe people believe they're saying in public. Rumsfeld went to some pains today to try to point out that he believes he has presented a balanced picture that he's never pretended that the war on global terror, and that's what he's talking about not just Iraq and Afghanistan, was going to be long and hard and he said anybody who thought differently was, in his words, inattentive at his briefings.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you very much, nice job there today, pulling out the dictionary yet again, nicely done.

On to California where the tax raising inept no (UNINTELLIGIBLE) met today with the arrogant interloper who would ruin democracy forever only this time it was just Arnold and Gray working on a transition from one to the other. Governor-elect Schwarzeneger and Governor Davis acting suspiciously like Simon and Garfunkel in the happy years.

Again, here's Frank Buckley. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY (voice-over): They ripped each other during the campaign but Arnold Schwarzenegger said there are no hard feelings between him and Gray Davis now that the campaign is over.

GOVERNOR-ELECT ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: Absolutely not. I have to say that the governor has been very gracious and has been absolutely fantastic.

BUCKLEY: But Davis who became only the second governor to be recalled in the U.S. in 80 years sounded wistful about his final days in office.

GOVERNOR GRAY DAVIS (D), CALIFORNIA: Life is like a relay race. We each run our part of the race as well as we can and then we pass the baton to the next person.

BUCKLEY: The political combatants were so gracious and cordial in their first transition meeting that later a microphone even picked up Schwarzenegger suggesting a future meeting at a Hollywood hot spot.

Mr. Schwarzenegger goes to Sacramento. It had a movie premiere quality to it. Schwarzenegger followed by cameras and reporters and fans every step of the way. Schwarzenegger also met with the legislative leaders during his relationship building visit trying to find common ground no matter how far away it was from Sacramento.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (UNINTELLIGIBLE)

SCHWARZENEGGER: Oh, yes, and he goes to Austria periodically and has the good wiernerschnitzel and all that stuff. There are things that we can build on.

BUCKLEY: Schwarzenegger the candidate promised to clean up Sacramento when he got here and to eliminate the increase in the car license fee while keeping education spending intact and keeping taxes where they are. Can he do it?

The Senate President pro tem John Burton, the guy munching the celery is an old Sacramento hand who doesn't mince words and he doesn't think the governor-elect can do it.

SEN. JOHN BURTON (D), CALIFORNIA STATE SENATE LEADER: If I was a betting man I'd say it's about three to one against, but underdogs do win.

BUCKLEY: While Schwarzenegger remained optimistic he also cautioned Californians after a meeting with the state treasurer to be realistic about a movie star governor-elect and his ability to make change quickly.

SCHWARZENEGGER: I've played very, very heroic characters in the movies, but you can't expect me to walk in to this office and all of a sudden come out with the answers. I mean it will take a while to really solve those problems. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BUCKLEY: And Governor-elect Schwarzenegger will have a chance to take on some of those problems, some of those issues facing California very soon, transition team officials, Aaron, telling us today that they believe that the swearing ceremony will be around November 17 -- Aaron.

BROWN: Now, Frank, how much of his governing staff has been put together?

BUCKLEY: Well, so far a chief of staff for the transition team has been named. That was a key role, Pat Clary. She is a former deputy chief of staff under Pete Wilson.

That's a key role but there are still hundreds of jobs that need to be filled in the new administration and one of the transition team officials told me that they've asked people to send in their resumes, their CVs on the web and they've received over 6,000 so they've got a lot to go through right now to try to pick out all those jobs.

BROWN: Frank, thank you very much again, Frank Buckley he's out in Sacramento, California.

Ahead on the program tonight, giving the governor the power to save someone who might not even want to be saved; back to Florida for that.

And it's small but it's valuable, why the Democratic hopefuls are pushing hard in New Hampshire.

On CNN this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Terri Schiavo's father visited his daughter today and, as he often does, he gave her a little kiss on the cheek. That's when he says she said "uh uh." When he asked her if she wanted him to kiss her again he says she said again "uh uh."

To the doctor we had on the program last night and to others who have examined her this is nothing more than a reflex but to her dad, Bob Schindler, it is yet another reason to believe the Florida legislature made the right decision when it passed a law to keep her alive.

But in doing so, lawmakers in effect overrode the judgment of the doctors and of a number of state courts, the first raising ethical concerns, the second bumping up against the Constitution, federal and state.

Here's CNN's John Zarrella.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): As they debated passing the new law, Florida's legislators knew Terri's bill might be unconstitutional.

SEN. ANNA COWIN (R), LEESBURG, FLORIDA: And when we are in doubt, as many of us are, let us err on the part of not condemning this woman to a painful death that she consciously can feel.

SEN. ALEX VILLALOBOS (R), MIAMI: I believe that this bill, if I were to vote for it, is unconstitutional and I just can't bring myself to do that.

ZARRELLA: But other legislators could in less than 24 hours writing, voting, and sending Terri's bill to Governor Jeb Bush. The governor who said for weeks he wanted to help Schiavo says the bill was not driven by politics.

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: This was the right thing to do and the courts will make the determination. It's on appeal as I understand it and they'll make the determination of the constitutionality but we did what was right and I'm proud of the legislature for responding.

ZARRELLA: The law gave the governor the authority to issue a one time stay to prevent the withholding of nutrition and hydration from a patient if the patient has no written advance direction, the court has found that patient to be in a persistent vegetative state, the patient has had nutrition and hydration withheld.

And, the governor's authority to issue stays expires 15 days after the bill took effect. In other words, it's a one time only law which in and of itself, legal experts say, is unconstitutional.

CHRISTOPHER CHOPIN, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: The way the law looks at it, if you and I don't have the same law applying to us something is unconstitutional.

ZARRELLA: The attorney for Michael Schiavo, Terri's husband, says he will challenge the law on that basis.

(on camera): But any challenge will likely take months to work its way through the courts and could ultimately end up before the U.S. Supreme Court taking much longer than it took for the legislature and the governor to pass and sign the Terri Schiavo bill.

John Zarrella CNN, Pinellas Park, Florida.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: With us now in Gainesville, Florida, Lars Noah who teaches law at the University of Florida, nice to see you.

LARS NOAH, PROFESSOR OF LAW, UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA: Thank you.

BROWN: I got to be honest, I spent a fair amount of the day looking for someone who would say to us the law is fine and it will stand up and we couldn't. Everybody seems to agree this thing is going nowhere, why? NOAH: Well there are any number of reasons why a court might find constitutional difficulties with this law. John's interviews I think pointed out that there are equal protection and due process issues. This is targeted legislation. It's applied retroactively.

I think actually the easiest basis for concluding that there's a constitutional concern and really the most worrisome aspect of this entire episode is the separation of powers problem.

This is an instance where the legislature has in effect taken it upon itself, and the executive branch has as well, to intrude on a judicial function and that is something that under the state Constitution just like the federal Constitution is clearly inappropriate.

BROWN: Let's talk about this for a second. Here is a -- you had a court rule in the particular case of Ms. Schiavo and this law deals with that specific ruling instead of the broader issue, correct, of when life can be terminated?

NOAH: It would have been entirely appropriate indeed it would have been the correct thing for the legislature to look into the question of whether state law should be modified in the wake of this controversy.

But more than a decade ago the legislature in the state of Florida, as is true in many states, enacted very comprehensive legislation specifying standards that would be used in cases like this in the absence of a living will, the priority of different healthcare proxies and how it would go through a legislative process with certain standards of proof involved.

All of that has been satisfied in this case except, of course, to the satisfaction of the losing parties and they've decided in effect that they're going to pursue this litigation by other means.

BROWN: Ms. Schiavo's case has become a cause for many who oppose the right to die, if you will, the right to end someone's life. Do you think as I guess many people do that what the legislature did was sort of cynical that it was just playing to the politics of the moment?

NOAH: That's certainly one interpretation, although as the legislators who were interviewed in your piece beforehand explained, I think some of them quite sincerely believed that what they were doing was entirely appropriate in this case.

But it's worrisome because, again, the state legislature is on record very clearly when it enacted this legislation I described more than ten years ago that patients in similar circumstances had a privacy-based right to refuse life-sustaining care.

We have a special constitutional right to privacy provision in this state in contrast to the federal Constitution and we have decisional law in this state that very clearly establishes the right of an adult patient to choose to discontinue life-sustaining care. So, it may be that the state legislature now believes that those positions were troublesome that a majority of Floridians may oppose those or may at least want to ratchet up the standards before allowing proxies to make those choices on behalf of an incompetent patient but that's precisely what they failed to do in this instance.

Instead, it's essentially a legislative gerrymander where they have enacted legislation whose sole purpose is to deal with this particular very symbolic dispute in a way that perhaps some of the members of the state legislature and the governor's office view as a political opportunity. I think that would be a terrible tragedy if this is what this is all about.

BROWN: Professor thanks for your time and your thoughts tonight. Lars Noah, professor of law at the University of Florida, thank you.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT ahead forget about Iowa, wait you can't do that can you? Well, you can't prevent nine Democratic candidates one small state, the importance of being New Hampshire.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Sometimes we do this. Earlier this week, we ran a Jeff Greenfield spot on why the conventional wisdom may well be wrong on the importance of winning the New Hampshire primary. On the other hand, maybe it is the great momentum builder on the road to the White House.

Dan Lothian tonight on the campaign in New Hampshire, the first- in-the-nation primary.

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DAN LOTHIAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The changing of seasons in New Hampshire means cold weather is on the way. But the political climate is just heating up. On television, former Vermont Governor Howard Dean has launched tough ads criticizing his Democratic rivals on health care and, as he sees it, inconsistencies on the war in Iraq.

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HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The best my opponents can do is ask questions today that they should have asked before they supported the war.

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LOTHIAN: Political experts say, in the 2004 presidential primary race, this battleground state is more important than ever.

ANDREW SMITH, UNIV. OF NEW HAMPSHIRE: Both because Iowa's been somewhat diminished by Clark and Lieberman dropping out of that camp -- contest. Plus, the front-loaded nature of the rest of the primaries.

LOTHIAN: In other words, a win here on January 27 means huge momentum going into seven primaries a week later.

That's why retired General Wesley Clark is campaigning for the second time in the Granite State since getting into the race five weeks ago -- and why all nine Democratic candidates are expected to spend considerable time here over the next three months.

State Democratic Chairperson Kathleen Sullivan says winning the hearts of voters will mean stumping on more than just issues and promises.

KATHLEEN SULLIVAN, NEW HAMPSHIRE DEMOCRATIC CHAIR: You now have to convince the Democratic base that you can win. The Democrats in New Hampshire want a candidate who will defeat George Bush.

LOTHIAN: The latest polls show former Vermont Governor Howard Dean leading in the state. In "The Concord Monitor" poll, 33 percent of likely Democratic voters are supporting Dean; 18 percent for Massachusetts Senator John Kerry; 14 percent for Clark. The rest of the field is in single digits.

But there is one other critical number. As students at the University of New Hampshire found out, 20 percent of the voters here are undecided.

SMITH: It tells me that the Democratic electorate in the state still isn't particularly happy with the candidates.

LOTHIAN: The problem?

SULLIVAN: There really is not such significant differences that you could not support any one of them.

LOTHIAN (on camera): Political strategists say the battle to win the undecided could be the difference for top-tier candidates, who are working to stand out in a crowded field on the way to the White House.

Dan Lothian, CNN, Manchester, New Hampshire.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few more items, quickly, before we head to break, starting with wildfires in Southern California, this one in the San Bernardino National Forest. We're heading that way tomorrow. It triggered evacuations today, about 1,000 homes cleared. So far, though, the flames have stayed away from those homes, thankfully. The fire is one of several burning in Southern California tonight. One of them threatens a portion of Camp Pendleton, the giant Marine base.

Washington, D.C. next: senators giving themselves a pay raise, a small one, about 2 percent, bringing their annual pay to $158,000. To be precise, the raise comes automatically each year. Today's vote defeated a measure to change the system. And seven months after the bombing campaign, the Patent Office reports a flood of amount cases to use the phrase for products. There are filings to trademark golf clubs, action toys, coffee-makers, even Shock and Awe condoms.

Still to come tonight: the case of the missing mummy, what one of the most powerful of all the Egyptian pharaohs is doing in Atlanta, Georgia. We wonder, too.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT: the general, religion, and should he stay or go? Plus, of course, morning papers and the obligatory mummy story.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The defense secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, is famously capable of both sticking his foot in his mouth and creatively pulling it back out again. But this ability isn't so easily transferred, it seems, to others in the chain of command.

Take the case of General William Jerry Boykin, who, in a speech to Christian groups, implied that Muslims worshiped an idol -- other things said there, too. A subsequent apology, his request for the inspector general to investigate haven't done much to quiet down the protests over the remarks.

So the question on the table tonight, should the general be removed or does he have the right to express his opinions, no matter what those opinions might be? Though we would argue it is a bit more complicated than that, too.

Joining us now to talk about all of this, Ralph Peters, retired lieutenant colonel in the U.S. Army. His most recent book is entitled "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War & Peace." And also joining us, Cliff May, from the Foundation For the Defense of Democracies. They're both in Washington and they're both welcome.

Mr. May, why don't we start with you?

You think the general is getting a bad rap here.

CLIFF MAY, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: I think that may be so.

And I'm sorry. I've got an echo here.

Look, I think it's very serious to accuse Somebody of anti-Muslim bias or anti-Semitism or anti-Christian bias. And, Aaron, what you just said is that he compared Muslims to idol worshipers. I don't think that's what he did. I think he's talking about the people he fights every day. He's talking about terrorists, people who have adopted an ideology that is not Islam, although they claim to act in the name of Islam.

I think he -- I think, from the excerpts we have, it's simply not fair to conclude -- and he has said that he is not anti-Islamic. And I don't think he's said what he has been purported to have said.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Well, let's work on the echo program.

Let me go to Lieutenant Colonel Peters here for a second.

Just briefly, Ralph, make the case that he ought to go.

RET. LT. COL. RALPH PETERS, U.S. ARMY: Well, Aaron, this is actually personal for me, because, several years ago, as a serving officer, with a successful career, I decided that there were things I wanted to write and say that were controversial and shouldn't really be said by a serving officer. Not appropriate.

So I made the decision -- and a tough one -- to retire, to take my uniform off, so I could speak freely. Now, General Boykin can take his uniform off at any time and say whatever he wants. But he cannot say things prejudicial to good order and discipline or things that are, frankly, controversial and uncleared and accusatory while he's in uniform.

But, Aaron, even more importantly, this man isn't a captain of a tank company at Fort Hood. He is the deputy undersecretary of defense for intelligence. And what deeply troubles me is, in a time we're facing such challenges in the Muslim world, around the world, that this man would suggest that Muslims are idol worshipers, that shows he knows nothing about Islam.

And then he talks about seeing Satan's face in the clouds. We need intelligence officers who see reality on earth, not Satan's face in the clouds. So he sounds to me, hate to say, like a foolish man who said some very foolish things.

BROWN: Let me go back to Mr. May for a second.

I just -- I think it's fair to kind of argue about what he meant. But just the context that I heard the Somali comment in, he said that this warlord said to him, he knew he would be safe because Allah protected him, to which he said: I think he was wrong, because my God is the real God. His God is an idol.

Are you sure that that -- are you still sure of your position?

MAY: Let me remind you who he was talking about. He was talking about what you call or may be called a warlord.

But this was somebody who was going around stealing food that Americans were trying to give to starving people. This was somebody who was sending -- if you remember "Black Hawk Down," the movie or the book -- sending women out with a baby in one hand and AK-47 in the other to kill Americans. This was somebody, these were the people who were dragging American soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu.

I think that anybody who believes that such people represent Islam is committing a terrible insult to a great faith. I don't think that's what he meant at all. I think he meant this criminal -- who, by the way, we now know was probably al Qaeda trained -- all these guys are -- not al Qaeda, but bin Laden. That was before the formulation of al Qaeda -- but was trained like that.

I think he may have been saying that these guys that he was fighting in Somalia, they pray to a false God. I do not think he was saying -- he was making this comment about Turkish Sufis or about Muslims in Detroit or about our Kurdish allies.

BROWN: Cliff, just as a practical matter, as a practical matter, much of the Muslim world has now heard all of this. They are -- we are told this came up with the president yesterday.

So, as a practical matter, then, fair or not, should the guy stay or go?

MAY: Well, as a practical matter, let's understand that when somebody from "The L.A. Times" goes and tapes this guy and will only release excerpts, not the full context, not the full text of what he said, and then it's misreported all over the press, as if we simply know that he wasn't talking about the terrorists he fights, but all Islam, a terrible disservice is being done to this man, very unfair, and to the country in general.

Now, I don't disagree with what Colonel Peters is saying. I think somebody in uniform or somebody who works for State or Defense, he doesn't have the same free speech rights that you and I do. He has to keep to the looking points. And this general absolutely should have had a media adviser or a press secretary or a speechwriter. And maybe he's ruined at this point, because, look, what we do right now, it's very dangerous stuff, like going out and fighting terrorists, because you can put your foot in your mouth.

But I think it's unfair for us to all simply assume that this is an example of anti-Islamic bigotry, when I think he was probably only talking about militant Islam, jihadists, totalitarian Muslims.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry. Let me give Ralph the last word here.

Do you think that the damage, essentially, has been done, that there's no way to salvage this career of what is otherwise a very -- considered to be a very fine officer?

PETERS: Well, he may have been a good soldier on the operational level. I have to wonder why he's in this intelligence position.

And, again, Aaron, I'm just troubled by the fact that the highest-ranking uniform in -- supposedly, intelligence officer or intelligence adviser on the SecDef's staff has no idea about Islam. Now, there is much we can criticize about the Islamic world or the Middle East, from the oppression of women, to the bigotry. And I'm not shy about that.

But this man was wrong in his facts. And he's at too high a level to be wrong in his facts. There's something terribly wrong. He sounds incompetent. And, by the way, again, I go back to the fact that he is free as a citizen to say what he wants, but take off the uniform. He disgraced the uniform.

BROWN: Got it. Point made, both of you. Thank you. Nicely done tonight. Thank you.

PETERS: Thank you.

MAY: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Quickly, a few more stories here before we go to break, a bit more on Iraq and who is going to pay to rebuild it. That is one of them. First stop here, Madrid, the U.N. conference for the Iraqis and American officials are meeting with potential donors. The secretary of state was there, downplaying the chances of securing the $36 billion he says will be needed, in addition to the $20 billion the United States intends to provide.

The Senate today went up against the president, members of the Senate voting 59-26 to bar the use of money to enforce the travel ban to Cuba. The House already passed a similar measure. The White House is threatening to veto it, says the travel ban is necessary.

Finally New York for the first part of the last journey of the Concorde, at least for paying passengers. The British Airways jet, the only supersonic airliner still flying, touched down this evening at Kennedy International. It departs tomorrow for Heathrow in London and then on to the history books. A more graceful bird, we think there never was. Not the most comfortable ride, maybe, but it sure did feel like you were flying -- the Concorde.

Up ahead: wrapping up an ancient mystery. OK, that was a bad one. Still, a story about a missing mummy and its long journey home.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

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BROWN: Without a doubt, the oddest passenger going through Atlanta's Hartsfield Airport tomorrow will be the pharaoh, Pharaoh Ramses I, that is. Pharaoh Ramses is returning to his home in Egypt after an extended tour that included a stop in Niagara Falls. If you happen to be in the airport tomorrow, we think you will not be able to miss it. He is the one who is 3,000 years old.

Here is NEWSNIGHT's Catherine Mitchell.

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CATHERINE MITCHELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Ancient Egyptians believed that to speak the name of the dead is to keep the spirit alive.

PETER LACOVARA, MICHAEL C. CARLOS MUSEUM: The best thing possible for Ramses I, that we have reassociated his name with his body, which means his spirit can once again live.

MITCHELL: The father of Egypt's golden age, Ramses I, was buried in 1291 B.C. in the Valley of the Kings with all the trappings of royalty. But, today, his tomb lies empty and experts say he lies in Atlanta, Georgia.

LACOVARA: This is the mummy that we think is the mummy of Ramses I, the founder of the 19th Dynasty. In over 100 years, it's the first discovery of a royal mummy, and not in Egypt, but in Niagara Falls. So it's an interesting story.

MITCHELL: Yes, you heard right, Niagara Falls, because that's where Atlanta's Carlos Museum purchased a collection of mummies in 1999 from a so-called freak museum, where the royal mummy spent the last 100 or so years in obscurity. Records of a link between this museum and a family of tomb-robbers produced the strongest clue.

LACOVARA: The most exciting link was discovering in Canada the record that the Niagara Falls people had purchased the collection and this mummy from the dealer who was working with the Abd el Rasul family who, of course, had found the cache of royal mummies.

MITCHELL: But archaeologists like scientific proof.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This hole here seems to be the remains of the embalming scar.

MITCHELL: DNA testing was deemed too destructive. But using radiocarbon dating and medical imaging, Dr. Lacovara and a team of Emory researchers say they have found evidence that the mummy is almost certainly the long lost pharaoh.

LACOVARA: The crossed arms, of course, over his chest, which is a position reserved only for royal mummies. And then there are details that suggest a royal mummy of the early 19th Dynasty, including this kind of fine linen packing at the neck and in the abdomen, and then, of course, the use of sort of resin inside and out, which was a very expensive commodity, and then the sort of profile, his hooked nose. It's a family characteristic. You can see it on Seti and on Ramses II. There is a pretty strong family resemblance.

MITCHELL: But it wasn't until the ultimate skeptic, Egyptian antiquities minister, Zahi Hawass, paid a visit to Egyptian that Dr. Lacovara's theory was validated.

DR. ZAHI HAWASS, SECRETARY GENERAL, EGYPT'S SUPREME COUNCIL ON ANTIQUITIES: When I first entered and my eyes looked at it, I could smell that he is a pharaoh. MITCHELL: And according to the Carlos Museum, a pharaoh belongs in Egypt. After a long journey, the royal mummy is finally going home, a homecoming Dr. Lacovara says is fitting.

LACOVARA: It is a pretty strange saga, that he would sort of come from the Valley of the Kings up to Niagara Falls and then down to Atlanta and then back to Egypt. The Egyptians did believe that they would have a sort of long journey through the underworld after their death. So I guess he maybe wouldn't be quite so surprised.

MITCHELL: Catherine Mitchell, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Take a break, and tomorrow morning's papers when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydokey, time to check morning papers from around the country.

We'll start with "USA Today." If you're around the country, if you're traveling, this you'll find this at your hotel, unless you stay at a really pricey hotel, where they will give you another paper. "USA Today." Here we go. "Wal-Mart Cleaners Arrested in Sweep That Targets Illegal Workers in 21 States." Also "USA Today," down at the bottom, "Beef Prices On the Way Up. Canadian Import Ban, Demand Cited." And one of those really cute -- can you get this? -- "USA Today" graphics right in the center there. It's one of the reasons we love the paper so much. And a reminder that daylight savings time ends and depression begins on Sunday morning at 2:00.

"Washington Times" got an exclusive interview with the secretary of defense and leads with it. "Rumsfeld Sets Strategy in War of Ideas. Secretary Denies Any Pressure to Fire General." Well, there's clearly pressure. Whether he's feeling it or not, I don't know. Also on the front page of "The Washington Times": "Gay Canon Defends Role in Church, Says He Can Control Exodus." This is Bishop Gene Robinson. "The Washington Times" front-pages story a fair amount.

"The Virginian Pilot" out in North Carolina. This is a great picture, but I'm not sure you'll be able to tell: "Putting Hatteras Back Together." One side, October 17, after Hurricane Isabel. And here's October 23. And how much difference a week makes. It's kind of a cool picture and a nice idea of a story.

How we doing on time, Terry (ph)? Thirty? Oh, my goodness.

"The Virginian." I'm sorry. "The Richmond Times-Dispatch." Well, it was close to "The Virginian," Aaron. "Solemn Tribute Paid to 241 Victims." This is Beirut and the monument for those fine soldiers -- Marines, actually.

"Chicago Sun-Times," the weather is "blah." "U.S. Detain Nearly All the Men in an Iraq Village." This is an AP story, I believe.

We're off to California tomorrow to talk with former President Jerry Ford, the last surviving member of the Warren Commission, for a program on John F. Kennedy's -- the 40th anniversary of his death. We'll see you again on Monday.

Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

END

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Scientists Are Worried International Space Station Is Dangerous; Mummy Thought To Be Ramses I Found In Museum In Niagra Falls>