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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Fires Rage in Southern California; Interview With Joseph Lieberman
Aired October 29, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. Good to see you back in New York.
One brief sentence said just about everything that needed to be said about the California wildfires today. Chris Cade (ph) with the U.S. Forest Service said this: "There's fire on so many fronts it's not even manageable at this point." And then he added, "I'm at a loss what you can do about it."
What they are doing about it is desperately trying to slow the fire, slow the relentless march by time until the weather changes, changes enough to make fighting the fire something other than hopeless. That didn't happen today.
Today was another bad day, a bad day made worse by the death of a firefighters on the lines.
Once again the California fires top the whip and own much of the program. We begin tonight at the southern end of the battlefield. Jason Carroll has gone out west to Julian, California not too far from San Diego, Jason a headline from you tonight.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Aaron, the temperatures out here definitely have cooled down but the wind is still just as intense as ever. The fire is still just as intense as ever. It has already claimed the life of one firefighter and injured three others -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jason, thank you. We'll get to you near the top tonight.
Now to the central front of the fire and a search for the possible arsonist, Frank Buckley is on the phone tonight from Lake Arrowhead, a headline from you Frank.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, we're on the phone with you because the fire continues to burn up here in the mountain communities and it flared up suddenly where we were and we had to move in a hurry. Thousands of structures remain threatened up here. Meanwhile, the search for a suspect, the arsonist, continues.
BROWN: Frank, thank you.
On to the northern front of the fire now, Martin Savidge has been working that part of the story. He remains on the fire line at Stevenson Ranch, Marty a headline from where you are. MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron. For a second straight day the Stevenson Ranch area near Santa Clarita, California found itself under the gun from the Simi Valley fire and for a second straight day the firefighters won but the danger is not over.
BROWN: Marty, thank you. We'll get to you pretty quick too.
And now back east where there is a metaphorical storm over the abuse of four boys at the hands, it seems, of their parents, whether the state could have prevented, whether a community could have prevented it, Deborah Feyerick with the headline from Collingwood, New Jersey.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, prosecutors say the boys were so hungry that they tried surviving by eating pieces of window sills and walls, so why didn't anyone notice? That's the question being asked tonight.
BROWN: It's an awfully good question. Thanks, Deborah, we'll get back to you and the rest tonight.
Also coming up on the program the latest on the sniper trial, the youngest victim testifies about being shot on his way to school.
We'll talk with Connecticut Senator and Democratic presidential hopeful Joseph Lieberman on the eve of an important, if only symbolic vote on global warming.
And a lovely nightcap to end a difficult night we'll check morning papers, might be a surprise there, all that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin, of course, with the fires which are neither under control tonight or about to be. That's about as definite an answer as there is from where we sit. The story is playing out in dozens of places and in hundreds of different ways.
We'll look at a number of them tonight beginning with CNN's Martin Savidge.
SAVIDGE: Aaron, you know the firefighters will tell you that as they work a fire line that fire is a living, breathing animal and it very much lives out the lifestyle, especially at nighttime.
As you take a look at the background you may see that there is not a lot of flame. The fire is resting. It's still out there. It's still very much breathing and waiting for daylight to come back to light.
The Simi Valley fire here has been particularly vexing for the firefighters in the Stevenson Ranch area. Today around seven o'clock Eastern time it reared its ugly head again, especially around Sunset Point and firefighters thought today that they were actually going to lose some homes. Once again they went into action. They pulled in resources both on the ground and from the air and they were able to beat off the fire and keep it away mainly just by a backyard's distance.
But this shows you that this fire is no longer moving by Santa Ana winds. It is moving by two other factors. One, it is the onshore breeze that is now blowing and pushing it through the mountain passes up here making it very difficult to predict where the wind is going to blow next.
On top of that you have the topography, very difficult land. Firefighters are stretched so thin here that they are not trying to put this blaze out. It is not physically possible to put this blaze out at least with human hands. What they are doing is setting up to try to protect life and property and that's how they respond.
Otherwise, if it's burning in open areas they let it go. They are trying to contain it on the western side of I-5. So far they have been successful at doing that. They know if this fire jumps I-5 it will force greater numbers of evacuations and there's a lot more fuel on the other side of the highway.
This fire is right now spreading to the north and attempting to go east and firefighters are trying to contain it. They say it's 35 percent contained. It has burned 102,000 acres, only 16 homes fortunately but it has gone over 40 miles -- Aaron.
BROWN: A couple of things. Well, first of all how close to the interstate, to I-5 is it?
SAVIDGE: Right now it's about say 200 yards.
BROWN: Oh, my goodness so it's right up against it. When we talked last time...
SAVIDGE: We should point out...
BROWN: Go ahead.
SAVIDGE: Aaron, there was a time today when they actually had to close down I-5. We were on it when they shut it down. They closed it for about an hour. They're using I-5 as a kind of firebreak and what they do is that the highway, of course, is an area that cannot burn so they shut the highway down, bring the fire trucks out on the highway itself, and battle the blaze from there. They were able to fight it off for a time and now the fire is, as we say, resting.
BROWN: And just again when we talked last night there was concern that you were hearing in the area you're in that the fire might jump to the San Fernando Valley. Tactically has anything changed in the last 24 hours?
SAVIDGE: No because that threat seems to have been diminished because now the fire is moving in the opposite direction from that moving to the north and trying to go to the east. They're working every way they can to prevent that. So that is not so much a threat but this is such a densely populated area that if not the San Fernando Valley there are plenty of other areas that could quickly be consumed by this blaze so they have to be very mobile in order to respond. It's now being a defensive posture once more and responding very quickly as fire departments do but this time with a very large force.
BROWN: Marty, we'll say this to you as we've said to everybody. Stay safe out there. We all learned today how dangerous this can be.
SAVIDGE: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you, Martin Savidge in the northern front of the fire.
To the south in San Diego this has been the most destructive and the deadliest by far of the fires today, a firefighter was killed, two others were badly hurt in the fire; again CNN's Jason Carroll in Julian, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL (voice-over): The first member of a fire crew killed while battling the California wildfires died when erratic winds suddenly shifted in Julian crating a fire wall he could not escape. A hand crew heard the news over their radio, paused for a moment, but then had to quickly move on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is frustrating when the weather is not working and you got to fight the elements at the same time. We're getting wind shifts here every half an hour. Every plan we come up with just hasn't worked out for us.
CARROLL: This is what the fight against a massive brush fire out of control has come down to, a battle to save homes one at a time.
You're setting a back fire to try to protect this home over here is that what's going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. We're going to burn off the light (unintelligible) fuels here, let it burn down around, burn the (unintelligible) fuels off over here right before the main front of the fire gets here.
CARROLL: Thirty-three hundred firefighters are on the front lines in San Diego County the worst hit by the California wildfires. Many are here in Julian but they can't be everywhere in this mountain community north of San Diego so for people like the Verdovas (ph) who refuse to evacuate they're on their own.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm stopping the fire, just going to stop the fire that's all.
CARROLL: The Cedar fire, which is threatening the Verdovas' home has scorched more than 230,000 acres so far, has destroyed almost 1,000 structures, the weather not cooperating. Winds are increasing making the battle all the more difficult.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't get in front of it, OK, because that thing's got a life of its own and it's just going to keep rolling.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: And in addition to that firefighter who was killed there were three others, as I said, who were injured. They were taken to UC San Diego Medical Center where they are being treated for their burns. Their conditions at this point unknown but I can tell you at this point in terms of this fire here in Julian, Aaron at this point it is only 15 percent contained -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, that's better than it is in some places I guess. What can -- can you tell us anything? What can you tell us about the circumstances under which the firefighter was killed and the others were hurt?
CARROLL: Well, the way we understand it is, and again we're still waiting to get some more information on this, but they were out there with their team and all of a sudden, as you can see the wind shifts and is strong and it's erratic.
And there was some sort of a wind shift out there and then what that did was it created this huge fire wall that simply this one firefighter simply could not escape. He somehow became trapped in this fire wall and could not get out at least that's what we're hearing at this point.
BROWN: And how do you get -- not so much how do you get word of it, though that's also part of the question, do all the firefighters now know that there has been this fatality?
CARROLL: At this point, yes. I mean in simple terms, yes, and in terms of how we hear about it, you know, we're out here with various fire crews as well. We hear what's happening on the radio. It comes down to us and then the announcements start being made and so that's how the information sort of trickles out when you're out here in Julian.
BROWN: Jason, be safe, your crew be safe and all those firefighters with you we hope stay safe tonight as well. Thank you very much.
Obviously this is mainly a story about firefighters but it also now involves the police. Any time a fire breaks out there are questions of arson and this time authorities say they do have reason to believe some of these horrible fires were deliberately set.
That was the focus today in an area near Lake Arrowhead and with that part of the story CNN's Frank Buckley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY (voice-over): As helicopters hit Lake Arrowhead with fire retardant and water, investigators were on the ground looking for an arsonist, the man depicted in this composite sketch, a white male in his 20s who was seen with one other person driving a gray-colored van near the starting point of the fire.
BRANDI LIVERMORE, AREA RESIDENT: It could be somebody who's standing here now. They could have been the one that started all these fires. I mean they're all arson fires and it's scary.
BUCKLEY: Investigators are leaving nothing to chance stopping and photographing even people who simply resemble the suspect, like this man who was driving and apparently living in a green-colored van. He was questioned and released.
ROBIN HAYNAL, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY SHERIFF: They questioned him and obviously through their questioning they determined that he was not who we were looking for.
BUCKLEY: As the fire roared into Lake Arrowhead and other mountain communities, investigators did arrest one man on suspicion of impersonating a firefighter.
SGT. DAVE CADDEL, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY SHERIFF: Deputies found firefighting apparatus, basic protection gear for the firefighter and when they questioned him he said he was affiliated with the Inglewood Fire Department. We found that not to be the case.
BUCKLEY: The man is not being called a suspect in the fire. But just what kind of a person would set a fire like this? Investigators on the case say wild land fire arsonists tend to be different than arsonists who set buildings ablaze.
ALAN CARLSON, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FORESTRY: Those tend to be more revenge and once in a while for profit. The wild land tends to be more of an excitement and/or trying to get some more action.
BUCKLEY (on camera): For the nearly 70,000 mountain community residents who remain evacuated the more immediate concern is their homes, their businesses. Officials say billions of dollars in homes and businesses remain under threat as the fire continues to burn.
Frank Buckley, CNN, Lake Arrowhead, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And, Frank, shot that a little bit ago. They've been forced to move but I think that Frank is with us either -- there he is. I was going to say either on the phone or on the satellite. What happened in the last 20, 30 minutes that forced you guys to move out?
BUCKLEY: Well, we were watching for the past several hours, Aaron, the fire burning around the northeastern part of Lake Arrowhead. It was creeping up along a valley just underneath a neighborhood. The firefighters felt confident that it was going to sort of burn around that neighborhood.
Suddenly the wind shifted or perhaps it was the fact that the helicopter drops stopped because it went dark, the fire started to shift direction and move toward us and the firefighters said you've got to move now because they were bringing in more engines and it was just getting a little dangerous there.
BROWN: You've been out there now literally for days. Do you sense a change in the mood out there? Are people more despondent today?
BUCKLEY: You know we thought there was a change in the mood yesterday. There was a sense from the firefighters that look, the weather is changing. It's starting to get cooler; in fact, it's quite cold up here in the mountains. We're at 5,000 or 6,000 feet.
They felt, you know, privately -- publicly they would say look this fire is still raging. There's a great deal of danger. Privately they would say just based on our experience we think we've turned a corner here. We all went to sleep, woke up this morning and the corner hadn't been turned. In fact, the fire jumped Highway 18 and roared right into Lake Arrowhead.
BROWN: Frank nice work today, thank you, Frank Buckley out in Lake Arrowhead tonight.
These are some of the bits and pieces of this enormous story. In a little bit we'll get an update from one of the chiefs on the line as we did last night but we felt for a couple of days now we need to see a broader picture of all of this so we want to step back a bit, look at the big picture, how things got the way they are right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Someone will eventually pick a definite moment when the Los Angeles fires of 2003 began but a week ago Tuesday seems a good place to start. There were no major outbreaks, although firefighters were dealing, handily it seemed, with four relatively small fires in the region.
Twenty four hours later three major fires had broken out, one to the south inside Camp Pendleton and two in the dry and dangerous forests of the San Bernardino (audio gap) Los Angeles National Forest where drought and insects had left hundreds of thousands of dead trees.
Thursday brought another blaze up north in the Simi Valley, fanned by hot and dry Santa Ana winds but by Friday afternoon, when we were there, it appeared as if fire crews had a chance to contain the blazes and Saturday, once again, looked good.
Sunday was an explosion. Strong winds hampered firefighters and blazes in the Simi Valley and San Bernardino literally exploded. A huge fire to the south near San Diego blasted through expensive suburbs and caused the most deaths so far as people were caught before they could flee.
By Monday there were over a dozen separate fires ringing downtown Los Angeles all the way down to the Mexican border. Thousands of firefighters were on the lines. Fourteen people were dead, over 1,000 homes destroyed. Things were continuing to get worse.
By Monday night, the Santa Ana winds had died and easterly humid winds started blowing in off the ocean. Usually this would be a help to the fire crews but instead the flames simply turned around and headed to the west away from urban suburbs but straight towards unprotected rural towns.
Tuesday brought more westward movement as crews set desperate fire lines and families came back to see what was left of their lives. As of this afternoon some of the smaller fires have died to a smolder but huge fires northwest and south of L.A. are still raging out of control still on the move.
And here are the statistics tonight. One firefighter has died, killed trying to save the town of Julian, not far from San Diego. More than 13,000 of his comrades are still on the fire line, some so exhausted they sleep anywhere they can.
One entire town is gone, a forest resort near San Diego. Seventeen civilians have perished but officials worry they will find more dead in the more than 2,000 destroyed homes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: All of that in a week. We'll have more on the fires out west as we continue tonight. We'll check in live with one of the people battling to get these fires under control.
Later the residents of a New Jersey town wonder how a family could neglect children right in their midst. We'll talk with the state official charged with making sure such things do not happen.
That and much more as NEWSNIGHT continues back home in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More now on the fires. When we spoke last night with Peter Brierty the San Bernardino Fire Marshall he told us he hoped his crews, lots of men and women out there would get some sleep and we hope they did, though honestly we can't imagine how.
He joins us again tonight to talk about a very difficult day and it was a very difficult day wasn't it?
PETER BRIERTY, FIRE MARSHALL, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY: Yes, it was. It was very difficult. We had some significant successes in keeping the fire out of the mountain communities yesterday but the fire blew back into the small community of Cedar Glen which is right behind us. It also took off to the west of Crest Line and Valley of Enchantment and made a run for the desert, threatening the high desert communities of Hesparia and Apple Valley where we had to do evacuations.
BROWN: I hope this isn't so naive it is to be laughable but what do you need here? What has to happen to get this stuff under control at the very least? BRIERTY: Well, we're being subjected to extreme weather patterns. The winds were very high and erratic today. The fire was pushed out into the desert with a great rapid speed. We're just -- the weather has been a real serious enemy to us here.
Some of the things that happened, we had the death of the firefighter in San Diego and that affected a lot of folks but it actually strengthened our resolve that what happened there wouldn't be lost in vain and we're going to fight even harder.
It's just one of those tough things we're going to deal with but the firefighters are working very, very hard up here, again making very, very heroic and valiant efforts to save homes.
The great success of today, though, is we kept the fire out of the greater community of Lake Arrowhead and inside the greater community of Lake Arrowhead no structures were lost.
We are working very hard over in another community next to Lake Arrowhead called Cedar Pines Park, which is near Crest Line and also the success in Running Springs keeping the fire out of Running Springs and it's kind of headed off into the forested area but we're still prepared for it to turn around because the weather is totally unpredictable at this point.
Actually right now instead of low humidity and high winds we're actually getting some fog here and that moisture in the air is going to help us tremendously.
BROWN: As you're talking we're seeing pictures of some of the fires in your area, in the San Bernardino area that your...
BRIERTY: That's correct.
BROWN: ...crews are fighting and the fact is that in at least two other major areas of the region of Southern California similar pictures could be shot, similar efforts being made and similar concerns about the weather. Are the weather people giving you any hope that in the next day or two you'll see a break?
BRIERTY: We're hoping for that, yes. We're hoping for a little bit of moisture and that's the type of things that's really going to help us fight this thing.
BROWN: Tell me the condition of your crews. You talked about their resolve and we believe every word of it. They've been at this now for a week many of them. They must be exhausted.
BRIERTY: Absolutely, absolutely. Some of them haven't -- the folks that -- some folks didn't get some rest last night and we have folks that have been up for over 24 hours, some two days now, 48 hour shifts that are working straight through heavy duty firefighting. It's amazing that they're still standing on their feet but they're still going after it.
BROWN: Is there a strategy in place or are you simply reacting to a series of changing events?
BRIERTY: Well, we initially start with the strategy. Structure protection groups are set up in various areas that are designed, the way they're set up is designed around the terrain, around the expected wind patterns but what's happening is the wind shifts and the weather changes. We're having to react rapidly to those.
Luckily up here in the mountains we have a lot of our local crews remaining here and they know the area. They know the terrain. They know what the behavior is going to do so a lot of our county and local Running Springs, Crest force firefighters are here. They know what -- they know the streets. They know how to get around.
And the other thing sit he evacuation, although it's very difficult on the citizens it's incredibly helpful for us because it keeps the streets open and keeps the ability for us to move heavy equipment and manpower from place to place.
BROWN: Are people generally pretty cooperative?
BRIERTY: People have been very, very, very cooperative. Our thanks go out to the citizens for understanding the seriousness of this situation. We understand the pressure that they're under, the difficulties that they're dealing with living away form their homes but this is the type of thing and that cooperation, which we very much appreciate, is what's going to save this community.
BROWN: Chief, thanks for your work and thanks for your time tonight. We wish you nothing but good luck.
BRIERTY: You know we've got a lot of things...
BROWN: Go ahead.
BRIERTY: We've got a lot of things going against us but one of the things we've got going for us is we got the greatest firefighters in the world up here and they're going to get this job done.
BROWN: I believe you and I hope they get it done soon. Thank you, sir, very much. Thank you.
BRIERTY: Thank you.
BROWN: Coming up on the program still tonight we'll check in at the sniper trial, the testimony today of the youngest victim, a victim shot on his way to school.
We'll take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The sniper trial now. All week the prosecution has presented jurors of the testimony of people who lived through a nightmare. Witness after witness has told of watching a victim fall, seeing someone die or suffering a terrible wound themselves. The strategy apparently twofold, to place the defendant at a series of crime scenes and create an indelible impression on the jury, the second may be easier to do than the first. Today the youngest victim took the witness stand.
Here's CNN's Jeanne Meserve.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fourteen-year- old sniper survivor Iron Brown (ph) described his shooting in stark and simple terms. It happened just after his aunt dropped him off at school.
"I opened the door and walked out. I put my book bag down and I got shot. It brought me closer to God" he testified.
Brown was calm, controlled, portraying no emotion but sitting across the room from John Muhammad was something that terrified and traumatized him, according to an attorney who briefly represented Iron's mother.
RICHARD BRYDGES, FAMILY ATTORNEY: I only have secondhand information from his mother, which I'm sure is absolutely accurate. He just lives in holy terror.
MESERVE: After he was shot, Iron made it back to his aunt's car. In court, Tanya Brown listened to the 911 call she made as she rushed him to a medical facility.
"Hold it, Iran. Hold it" she says apparently directing her nephew to apply pressure to his wound. "Oh my God, we've got to hurry up" she yells blowing her horn and urging other drivers to get out of the way.
When the tape was over, prosecutors asked Tonya Brown if Iran said anything to her during that horrifying drive. "He told me that he loved me," she replied tearfully.
The blue Chevy Caprice in which Muhammad and Lee Malvo were arrested is clearly central to the prosecution case. Evidence has been presented in eight of the D.C. area shootings and seven witnesses have testified to seeing the Caprice. Wednesday, retiree Alex Jones testified he was 80 percent certain he saw it at the October 4 Michaels craft store shooting.
When Patricia Bradshaw (ph) heard there had been a shooting at a Fredericksburg gas station, she testified that she said, "Oh, my God, that blue car," referring to the old Chevy she had seen slowly cruising by the scene.
(on camera): Witnesses at at least three locations have testified they told police about the Caprice immediately, but that information was not relayed to the public or to police manning roadblocks, and raises the question, could the sniper shootings have been stopped sooner? Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Virginia Beach, Virginia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: As NEWSNIGHT continues from New York, we turn to politics.
We'll be joined by Democratic senator and presidential hopeful Joe Lieberman.
We'll take a break first. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And we have lots more to do on the program tonight, including a family starving its own children, what the state plans to do to make sure it does not happen again anywhere. We'll, of course, check morning papers. And up next, Senator Joe Lieberman.
A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, the Senate began debate on what would be the first U.S. law to fight global warming by reducing carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, a modest start. While the bill is widely expected to go down to defeat when the vote comes tomorrow, its backers say it is but an opening salvo in what has to be a very long effort to get the federal government to address the problem.
We're joined now by one of the bill's sponsors, also a Democratic presidential hopeful, Joe Lieberman. He joins us from Washington.
Senator, it's nice to see you.
Do you agree, by the way, that this vote is essentially symbolic? It gets people on the record, but it's not going to pass?
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, it's more than symbolic. It's a real proposal by John McCain and me, the most comprehensive anti-global warming proposal ever put before Congress, done so in the context of a Bush administration that not only has not done anything about global warming, but continues to deny the broad scientific consensus that the planet really is warming as a result of human activity.
So it's a real proposal. The odds are, it's not going to pass. But who knows? We've got a chance to surprise tomorrow. And the important thing is, we're having a good debate about it. And John McCain and I are not going to give up on this. McCain said on the floor tonight, Aaron, that he felt like he did when he got together with Russ Feingold on campaign finance reform. It took them a long while, but they did it. And we're going to do this one, too.
BROWN: If you look around the world, certainly, industrial countries around the world have taken a very serious look at the issue. In this country, state and local governments have taken, by far, more action than the federal government has on global warming. Why has the federal government, in your view, been slow to act?
LIEBERMAN: Listen, I think the people are way ahead of the Bush administration and the federal government. They know that this is a problem. They want us to do something about it before the consequences become very, very serious and it's more expensive to fix it. That's part of why the states have done some work on it.
Frankly, this Bush administration has just yielded to the special interests, who don't want to change. And they got to change for our environment, for our public health, and even for our economy, because really dealing with global warming will create a whole new industries of new energy jobs.
BROWN: Let's talk about a couple of other things. You've been out on the campaign now for a bit.
LIEBERMAN: Yes.
BROWN: Like all candidates, I suppose you've had some ups and downs. You strongly supported the war effort. You've had lots of questions since. Do you believe that a Democratic candidate who supported the war can get the nomination?
LIEBERMAN: Oh, yes indeed.
And I do because I think that, ultimately, the voters in the Democratic primaries and in the election next November are going to look for a president that they can trust to level with them, because they feel increasingly that George Bush has not done that. They're looking for somebody who can lead with integrity.
I have not waffled. I have not pandered. I did what I thought was sincerely right in the war. And I have tried to do it in just about everything else. The fact is that there are a lot of Democrats who are happy that Saddam Hussein is gone, but, like me, are upset that George Bush didn't tell the whole truth before the war and had no plan to deal with Iraq after the war.
I know I can do a better job as president. And that's the message I'm carrying across America.
BROWN: I saw a story today that the Pentagon's thinking of reducing significantly, apparently, the number of people, 1,400 people now, looking for WMDs in Iraq. What does that tell you?
LIEBERMAN: Well, it tells me that we don't have enough people there.
I mean, it is shocking. One of the ways in which this administration didn't have a plan is that we didn't have enough troops there to go in and secure the weapons sites, not just the weapons of mass destruction, but the conventional weapons that some of these insurgents are using now to kill Americans. We ought to continue the weapons search and to have enough troops there to fight the insurgency that's going on. And I think this is -- I hope it doesn't mean that we're giving up on the search for weapons of mass destruction. The president, again, has said that the search will go on. To say that they may move some of these personnel around makes that look like yet another incident in which the administration is not leveling with us.
BROWN: Senator, it's always good to see you. I hope you'll come back soon.
LIEBERMAN: I will, Aaron. You have a good night.
BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much, Senator Joe Lieberman.
LIEBERMAN: Thank you.
BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: Did the state fail to protect children being starved by their parents? And what will the state of New Jersey do to make sure this never happens again? We'll take a look at the story after the break.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the small New Jersey town of Collingswood, all attention tonight is focused on finding answers to a town tragedy. How did four adopted children, ages 9 to 19 and all under state supervision, each weigh less than 50 pounds? And how did the New Jersey Division of Youth and Family Services, the embattled agency responsible for checking up on these children, keeping them safe and well, allow this to happen?
It is always easy, and sometimes right, to look at state agencies involved in such tragedies. But sometimes, the answers to these cases are literally across the street, down the block, in a school, a store, in a community that also has to ask itself, what, if anything, did it know and do. A town meeting tonight is trying to come up with some answers.
Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMES MALEY, MAYOR OF COLLINGSWOOD, NEW JERSEY: How could these children have fallen through so many cracks?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): People of Collingswood came to their town hall meeting with questions, mainly, how could no one notice four emaciated boys being starved, prosecutors say, by their own parents?
MALEY: We're distraught that something like this could happen here. FEYERICK: Prosecutors say the four adopted boys, ages 9 to 19, weighed less than 50 pounds each. They were discovered after a neighbor found one of the boys rifling through his trash, looking for food.
MICHAEL BYRD, NEIGHBOR: I woke my wife up. And I said, come. I said, come look. There's a little kid in the trash can eating in the trash can. She woke up, said: Put the trash back. We'll feed you if you're hungry.
FEYERICK: Investigators searched the family's home late Tuesday. Neighbors say they noticed the boys were small, but they believed things were fine, because a foster care worker from the Division of Youth and Family Services regularly visited one of the family's 11 kids.
Next-door neighbor Pete DiMattia.
PETE DIMATTIA, NEIGHBOR: They were here. At least once a month, they were here. So I just figured, the kids were thin because of maybe a medical condition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Jackson kids. There they are.
FEYERICK: In fact, at the church where the Jacksons prayed, friends say parents Raymond and Vanessa Jackson the told them the boys had eating disorders.
The tragedy is another black eye for New Jersey's governor and the foster care agency he vowed to reform in January, after a 7-year- old boy was found starved to death. Earlier this week, child welfare officials fired the nine case workers and managers involved in the Jackson case. But union officials for the workers say the agency is horribly understaffed and always in crisis.
PAUL ALEXANDER, ASSISTANT PRESIDENT, COMMUNICATIONS WORKERS OF AMERICA: Workers are just constantly treading water and oftentimes wind up drowning.
FEYERICK: Nineteen-year-old Bruce Jackson remains hospitalized. But officials say he's putting on weight. So are the other boys, who will be returned to foster care.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FEYERICK: And, Aaron, the mayor says that people have called about adopting the boys. Donations are pouring in. One school is taking up a collection. Other schools are being encouraged to do the same. As for the Jacksons, they remain in custody. They're awaiting a court-appointed lawyer -- Aaron.
BROWN: Deborah, thank you very much -- Deborah Feyerick covering tonight.
Joining us here tonight, one hopes, to shed some light on all of this, either the specifics or, more broadly, the issues in that agency, a man with a very difficult job to do, Kevin Ryan, New Jersey's chief child advocate. That's his job. He represents kids. He's only a few weeks on to the job. He got into it in the wake of earlier tragedies, abuse problems, involving the same state agency.
It's good to see you, though we suspect we will only see you on days of such bad news.
Do we know much -- do you know much yet about this particular case and how it came to be? For example, do you have a concern that money played a role, that this family was paid to adopt these children?
KEVIN RYAN, NEW JERSEY CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, it may have, Aaron.
I think that the issue here is, how does this agency go to this house 38 times over the last several years -- utilities have been shut off for the last five months -- and these kids, who are obviously physically starving, never get rescued from that house? And the question that my investigators are working on right now is, how does this happen? How does a public agency so profoundly fail the most vulnerable children in our state?
BROWN: Is it, in your mind, a cop-out to say, look, these case workers are overburdened, there's too little money there? Is that just an easy out for the union representing the case workers?
RYAN: Well, I think, in some systems, it may be.
But I think New Jersey is one of those systems that appears to have missed every one of the major reforms in the 1990s. It's understaffed. It's under-resourced. But that's not the problem necessarily in this case, because the agency was there 38 times in the last four years. Time after time after time, an adult, a public official with a sacred, important responsibility for children, went into that house and missed it.
And there are important questions to be asked about why they missed it. Maybe Mrs. Jackson was especially duplicitous and deceitful. Or maybe the workers was disinterested, or maybe a combination of both. I don't know. I'm working on that question tonight.
BROWN: Do you think -- we talked about this just before we went on the air. Of course, the family ultimately is responsible, OK. And, ultimately, the state has responsibility. It was charged with taking care of these kids. But they didn't live in a vacuum. They went to church. They had lives.
RYAN: Right.
BROWN: They were out there. They weighed 50 pounds and no one said anything. How can that be? What does that say about us?
RYAN: I think it raises the most profound questions about society, about community. I think it's possible that the neighbors were hoodwinked into believing that the children were sick. I think it's possible that the church where the family was especially engaged thought that the Jacksons were doing all that they could. But the truth is, these boys are especially fragile. And it seems very hard for me to believe that that was missed entirely by the community.
But I think tonight, by virtue of the fact that that town, in sort of an unprecedented way, came together around this crisis and people sort of came out of their homes, there was this huge outpouring of interest, shows that I think it's innate in the American spirit that we really want to be more for kids. The question is, how do you ensure that the public systems that are there for kids when their parents aren't work?
BROWN: People watching this tonight -- they're watching it somewhere in New Jersey, but somewhere in Montana or Wyoming or all over the country, all over the world -- what would you like them to do with this, with this information, with this story, with this tragedy?
RYAN: I think our politics are about things that are important to us. So we have a lot of interests.
People have a politics of Social Security and taxes and the environment and education. And those are all things that endure. But the politics of child welfare tend to come and go. And they tend to be in reaction to a crisis. And I think the thing that people have to do is be extraordinary. They have to make the politics of child welfare enduring. They have to care about it. They have to welcome kids into their homes.
The governor said to me yesterday, one of the things that this system said is a lot more engaged and proactive public officials and a lot more families willing to do extraordinary things. I think his outrage is probably going to fuel reform in this state. And I think that, if I do my job, put the white hot spotlight on this system and demand accountability, we'll be a step further along.
But when the cameras leave and attention recedes, this system will still need to be more for 50,000 kids who desperately need it to care for them.
BROWN: I feel like we've spent the night wishing people good luck. We can't wish you more luck than that. Somebody's got to do something over there.
RYAN: Thanks, Aaron.
BROWN: Good luck, sir.
RYAN: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
Check morning papers. We'll take a break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: Okeydokey, time to check morning papers from around the country.
A lot of local stories, but the fires in California make most front pages. They certainly make the front page of "The Sun," "The Sun" being the newspaper of San Bernardino County. We appreciate them getting us a paper. That's an early deadline for them. And that's really nice. "Mountains Trapped: Unstoppable Force Surrounds Resort Cities, 200-Foot Wall of Flames Reaches Lake Arrowhead." That's a pretty cool picture, isn't it? You can see the helicopter. It's looks like a praying mantis. I'm not sure you can see quite, but there it is. And the weather there tomorrow, because it matters, hazy sunshine, I guess, high 79, air quality, unhealthful. Yes.
It also makes the front page of "The Richmond Times-Dispatch," Virginia's news leader. "Wild Fires Threatening Evacuated Resort Towns, 11 Wildfires, 621,000 Acres Burns, 20 People Killed, 2,100 Homes Destroyed." That's the main story in "The Richmond Times- Dispatch."
"Chattanooga Times Free Press." I think this might be the first time we've had this paper. But, in any case, we're glad to have it out of Chattanooga, Tennessee. Down in the corner, I like this story. "Lobbyists Line Up For Piece of Corporate Tax Cut Pie." No kidding. Wow. I'm shocked. Anyway, there's a tax bill in the House, $128 billion, I think, all going to business taxes. And business interests want a piece of it, so they're lobbying their little heads off.
"The San Antonio Express" -- "Express-News." We should get the whole thing. "Forget the Alamo For Now. Release of the Movie and Premiere Are Delayed Until Spring as Director Takes More Time to Polish Film," the film on the Alamo. When they take more time to polish it, it rarely works out, don't you think?
One minute?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BROWN: OK. Cool. One, two, three.
"The Detroit News." I like this story, too. "Read Their Lips: Raise Our Taxes." It's a columnist, I believe, Laura Berman's piece. "In One Metro Suburb," metro of Detroit, "Some Homeowners Willing to Pay More to Save City Services." So that's a pretty good local story. And also, as often happens in Detroit, a sports story on the front page. "Women Pro Sports Strain to Build Niche. Lack of Sponsors, Fans Leaves Leagues Teetering."
And we'll end it with the "Chicago Sun-Times." "Daley to Teacher: Hey, It's Not a Bad Deal." They're in a teachers negotiation. The weather tomorrow in Chicago is "freakish." Up here, they'll put the Chicago Bulls basketball, but they don't have it yet. So what did they put for us? "Aaron 'Automatic' Brown Scores 30 For Bulls, Then Anchors NEWSNIGHT." That would be a double-double, in basketball terms.
We'll take a break and we'll update the top story, look ahead to tomorrow. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Before we go tonight, we want to quickly catch you up on the fires out West in California.
We said at the top, it's nearly impossible for anyone to say when or how this is going to end. The numbers are easy enough to come by. And they are sobering: more than 600,000 acres burned, 2,400 homes destroyed; 18 people have died, by our count, including tonight a firefighter.
But beyond that, no one has much of a grip on the larger picture. What we're left with tonight are dozens of pieces and places and moments that make up the story.
So we leave you tonight with that, as seen by the photographers of "The Los Angeles Times."
Again, we find ourselves dazzled by the power of stills. Tomorrow night, we'll hear about the experience of one of the "L.A. Times" photographers covering the fires, look at her photographs. That's tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT.
That's our program for tonight. Up next for our international viewers, "World News"; those of you in the states, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT."
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern. Good night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired October 29, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone. Good to see you back in New York.
One brief sentence said just about everything that needed to be said about the California wildfires today. Chris Cade (ph) with the U.S. Forest Service said this: "There's fire on so many fronts it's not even manageable at this point." And then he added, "I'm at a loss what you can do about it."
What they are doing about it is desperately trying to slow the fire, slow the relentless march by time until the weather changes, changes enough to make fighting the fire something other than hopeless. That didn't happen today.
Today was another bad day, a bad day made worse by the death of a firefighters on the lines.
Once again the California fires top the whip and own much of the program. We begin tonight at the southern end of the battlefield. Jason Carroll has gone out west to Julian, California not too far from San Diego, Jason a headline from you tonight.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Aaron, the temperatures out here definitely have cooled down but the wind is still just as intense as ever. The fire is still just as intense as ever. It has already claimed the life of one firefighter and injured three others -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jason, thank you. We'll get to you near the top tonight.
Now to the central front of the fire and a search for the possible arsonist, Frank Buckley is on the phone tonight from Lake Arrowhead, a headline from you Frank.
FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, we're on the phone with you because the fire continues to burn up here in the mountain communities and it flared up suddenly where we were and we had to move in a hurry. Thousands of structures remain threatened up here. Meanwhile, the search for a suspect, the arsonist, continues.
BROWN: Frank, thank you.
On to the northern front of the fire now, Martin Savidge has been working that part of the story. He remains on the fire line at Stevenson Ranch, Marty a headline from where you are. MARTIN SAVIDGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good evening to you, Aaron. For a second straight day the Stevenson Ranch area near Santa Clarita, California found itself under the gun from the Simi Valley fire and for a second straight day the firefighters won but the danger is not over.
BROWN: Marty, thank you. We'll get to you pretty quick too.
And now back east where there is a metaphorical storm over the abuse of four boys at the hands, it seems, of their parents, whether the state could have prevented, whether a community could have prevented it, Deborah Feyerick with the headline from Collingwood, New Jersey.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, prosecutors say the boys were so hungry that they tried surviving by eating pieces of window sills and walls, so why didn't anyone notice? That's the question being asked tonight.
BROWN: It's an awfully good question. Thanks, Deborah, we'll get back to you and the rest tonight.
Also coming up on the program the latest on the sniper trial, the youngest victim testifies about being shot on his way to school.
We'll talk with Connecticut Senator and Democratic presidential hopeful Joseph Lieberman on the eve of an important, if only symbolic vote on global warming.
And a lovely nightcap to end a difficult night we'll check morning papers, might be a surprise there, all that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin, of course, with the fires which are neither under control tonight or about to be. That's about as definite an answer as there is from where we sit. The story is playing out in dozens of places and in hundreds of different ways.
We'll look at a number of them tonight beginning with CNN's Martin Savidge.
SAVIDGE: Aaron, you know the firefighters will tell you that as they work a fire line that fire is a living, breathing animal and it very much lives out the lifestyle, especially at nighttime.
As you take a look at the background you may see that there is not a lot of flame. The fire is resting. It's still out there. It's still very much breathing and waiting for daylight to come back to light.
The Simi Valley fire here has been particularly vexing for the firefighters in the Stevenson Ranch area. Today around seven o'clock Eastern time it reared its ugly head again, especially around Sunset Point and firefighters thought today that they were actually going to lose some homes. Once again they went into action. They pulled in resources both on the ground and from the air and they were able to beat off the fire and keep it away mainly just by a backyard's distance.
But this shows you that this fire is no longer moving by Santa Ana winds. It is moving by two other factors. One, it is the onshore breeze that is now blowing and pushing it through the mountain passes up here making it very difficult to predict where the wind is going to blow next.
On top of that you have the topography, very difficult land. Firefighters are stretched so thin here that they are not trying to put this blaze out. It is not physically possible to put this blaze out at least with human hands. What they are doing is setting up to try to protect life and property and that's how they respond.
Otherwise, if it's burning in open areas they let it go. They are trying to contain it on the western side of I-5. So far they have been successful at doing that. They know if this fire jumps I-5 it will force greater numbers of evacuations and there's a lot more fuel on the other side of the highway.
This fire is right now spreading to the north and attempting to go east and firefighters are trying to contain it. They say it's 35 percent contained. It has burned 102,000 acres, only 16 homes fortunately but it has gone over 40 miles -- Aaron.
BROWN: A couple of things. Well, first of all how close to the interstate, to I-5 is it?
SAVIDGE: Right now it's about say 200 yards.
BROWN: Oh, my goodness so it's right up against it. When we talked last time...
SAVIDGE: We should point out...
BROWN: Go ahead.
SAVIDGE: Aaron, there was a time today when they actually had to close down I-5. We were on it when they shut it down. They closed it for about an hour. They're using I-5 as a kind of firebreak and what they do is that the highway, of course, is an area that cannot burn so they shut the highway down, bring the fire trucks out on the highway itself, and battle the blaze from there. They were able to fight it off for a time and now the fire is, as we say, resting.
BROWN: And just again when we talked last night there was concern that you were hearing in the area you're in that the fire might jump to the San Fernando Valley. Tactically has anything changed in the last 24 hours?
SAVIDGE: No because that threat seems to have been diminished because now the fire is moving in the opposite direction from that moving to the north and trying to go to the east. They're working every way they can to prevent that. So that is not so much a threat but this is such a densely populated area that if not the San Fernando Valley there are plenty of other areas that could quickly be consumed by this blaze so they have to be very mobile in order to respond. It's now being a defensive posture once more and responding very quickly as fire departments do but this time with a very large force.
BROWN: Marty, we'll say this to you as we've said to everybody. Stay safe out there. We all learned today how dangerous this can be.
SAVIDGE: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you, Martin Savidge in the northern front of the fire.
To the south in San Diego this has been the most destructive and the deadliest by far of the fires today, a firefighter was killed, two others were badly hurt in the fire; again CNN's Jason Carroll in Julian, California.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL (voice-over): The first member of a fire crew killed while battling the California wildfires died when erratic winds suddenly shifted in Julian crating a fire wall he could not escape. A hand crew heard the news over their radio, paused for a moment, but then had to quickly move on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is frustrating when the weather is not working and you got to fight the elements at the same time. We're getting wind shifts here every half an hour. Every plan we come up with just hasn't worked out for us.
CARROLL: This is what the fight against a massive brush fire out of control has come down to, a battle to save homes one at a time.
You're setting a back fire to try to protect this home over here is that what's going on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. We're going to burn off the light (unintelligible) fuels here, let it burn down around, burn the (unintelligible) fuels off over here right before the main front of the fire gets here.
CARROLL: Thirty-three hundred firefighters are on the front lines in San Diego County the worst hit by the California wildfires. Many are here in Julian but they can't be everywhere in this mountain community north of San Diego so for people like the Verdovas (ph) who refuse to evacuate they're on their own.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm stopping the fire, just going to stop the fire that's all.
CARROLL: The Cedar fire, which is threatening the Verdovas' home has scorched more than 230,000 acres so far, has destroyed almost 1,000 structures, the weather not cooperating. Winds are increasing making the battle all the more difficult.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You don't get in front of it, OK, because that thing's got a life of its own and it's just going to keep rolling.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL: And in addition to that firefighter who was killed there were three others, as I said, who were injured. They were taken to UC San Diego Medical Center where they are being treated for their burns. Their conditions at this point unknown but I can tell you at this point in terms of this fire here in Julian, Aaron at this point it is only 15 percent contained -- Aaron.
BROWN: Well, that's better than it is in some places I guess. What can -- can you tell us anything? What can you tell us about the circumstances under which the firefighter was killed and the others were hurt?
CARROLL: Well, the way we understand it is, and again we're still waiting to get some more information on this, but they were out there with their team and all of a sudden, as you can see the wind shifts and is strong and it's erratic.
And there was some sort of a wind shift out there and then what that did was it created this huge fire wall that simply this one firefighter simply could not escape. He somehow became trapped in this fire wall and could not get out at least that's what we're hearing at this point.
BROWN: And how do you get -- not so much how do you get word of it, though that's also part of the question, do all the firefighters now know that there has been this fatality?
CARROLL: At this point, yes. I mean in simple terms, yes, and in terms of how we hear about it, you know, we're out here with various fire crews as well. We hear what's happening on the radio. It comes down to us and then the announcements start being made and so that's how the information sort of trickles out when you're out here in Julian.
BROWN: Jason, be safe, your crew be safe and all those firefighters with you we hope stay safe tonight as well. Thank you very much.
Obviously this is mainly a story about firefighters but it also now involves the police. Any time a fire breaks out there are questions of arson and this time authorities say they do have reason to believe some of these horrible fires were deliberately set.
That was the focus today in an area near Lake Arrowhead and with that part of the story CNN's Frank Buckley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BUCKLEY (voice-over): As helicopters hit Lake Arrowhead with fire retardant and water, investigators were on the ground looking for an arsonist, the man depicted in this composite sketch, a white male in his 20s who was seen with one other person driving a gray-colored van near the starting point of the fire.
BRANDI LIVERMORE, AREA RESIDENT: It could be somebody who's standing here now. They could have been the one that started all these fires. I mean they're all arson fires and it's scary.
BUCKLEY: Investigators are leaving nothing to chance stopping and photographing even people who simply resemble the suspect, like this man who was driving and apparently living in a green-colored van. He was questioned and released.
ROBIN HAYNAL, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY SHERIFF: They questioned him and obviously through their questioning they determined that he was not who we were looking for.
BUCKLEY: As the fire roared into Lake Arrowhead and other mountain communities, investigators did arrest one man on suspicion of impersonating a firefighter.
SGT. DAVE CADDEL, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY SHERIFF: Deputies found firefighting apparatus, basic protection gear for the firefighter and when they questioned him he said he was affiliated with the Inglewood Fire Department. We found that not to be the case.
BUCKLEY: The man is not being called a suspect in the fire. But just what kind of a person would set a fire like this? Investigators on the case say wild land fire arsonists tend to be different than arsonists who set buildings ablaze.
ALAN CARLSON, CALIFORNIA DEPARTMENT OF FORESTRY: Those tend to be more revenge and once in a while for profit. The wild land tends to be more of an excitement and/or trying to get some more action.
BUCKLEY (on camera): For the nearly 70,000 mountain community residents who remain evacuated the more immediate concern is their homes, their businesses. Officials say billions of dollars in homes and businesses remain under threat as the fire continues to burn.
Frank Buckley, CNN, Lake Arrowhead, California.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And, Frank, shot that a little bit ago. They've been forced to move but I think that Frank is with us either -- there he is. I was going to say either on the phone or on the satellite. What happened in the last 20, 30 minutes that forced you guys to move out?
BUCKLEY: Well, we were watching for the past several hours, Aaron, the fire burning around the northeastern part of Lake Arrowhead. It was creeping up along a valley just underneath a neighborhood. The firefighters felt confident that it was going to sort of burn around that neighborhood.
Suddenly the wind shifted or perhaps it was the fact that the helicopter drops stopped because it went dark, the fire started to shift direction and move toward us and the firefighters said you've got to move now because they were bringing in more engines and it was just getting a little dangerous there.
BROWN: You've been out there now literally for days. Do you sense a change in the mood out there? Are people more despondent today?
BUCKLEY: You know we thought there was a change in the mood yesterday. There was a sense from the firefighters that look, the weather is changing. It's starting to get cooler; in fact, it's quite cold up here in the mountains. We're at 5,000 or 6,000 feet.
They felt, you know, privately -- publicly they would say look this fire is still raging. There's a great deal of danger. Privately they would say just based on our experience we think we've turned a corner here. We all went to sleep, woke up this morning and the corner hadn't been turned. In fact, the fire jumped Highway 18 and roared right into Lake Arrowhead.
BROWN: Frank nice work today, thank you, Frank Buckley out in Lake Arrowhead tonight.
These are some of the bits and pieces of this enormous story. In a little bit we'll get an update from one of the chiefs on the line as we did last night but we felt for a couple of days now we need to see a broader picture of all of this so we want to step back a bit, look at the big picture, how things got the way they are right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): Someone will eventually pick a definite moment when the Los Angeles fires of 2003 began but a week ago Tuesday seems a good place to start. There were no major outbreaks, although firefighters were dealing, handily it seemed, with four relatively small fires in the region.
Twenty four hours later three major fires had broken out, one to the south inside Camp Pendleton and two in the dry and dangerous forests of the San Bernardino (audio gap) Los Angeles National Forest where drought and insects had left hundreds of thousands of dead trees.
Thursday brought another blaze up north in the Simi Valley, fanned by hot and dry Santa Ana winds but by Friday afternoon, when we were there, it appeared as if fire crews had a chance to contain the blazes and Saturday, once again, looked good.
Sunday was an explosion. Strong winds hampered firefighters and blazes in the Simi Valley and San Bernardino literally exploded. A huge fire to the south near San Diego blasted through expensive suburbs and caused the most deaths so far as people were caught before they could flee.
By Monday there were over a dozen separate fires ringing downtown Los Angeles all the way down to the Mexican border. Thousands of firefighters were on the lines. Fourteen people were dead, over 1,000 homes destroyed. Things were continuing to get worse.
By Monday night, the Santa Ana winds had died and easterly humid winds started blowing in off the ocean. Usually this would be a help to the fire crews but instead the flames simply turned around and headed to the west away from urban suburbs but straight towards unprotected rural towns.
Tuesday brought more westward movement as crews set desperate fire lines and families came back to see what was left of their lives. As of this afternoon some of the smaller fires have died to a smolder but huge fires northwest and south of L.A. are still raging out of control still on the move.
And here are the statistics tonight. One firefighter has died, killed trying to save the town of Julian, not far from San Diego. More than 13,000 of his comrades are still on the fire line, some so exhausted they sleep anywhere they can.
One entire town is gone, a forest resort near San Diego. Seventeen civilians have perished but officials worry they will find more dead in the more than 2,000 destroyed homes.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: All of that in a week. We'll have more on the fires out west as we continue tonight. We'll check in live with one of the people battling to get these fires under control.
Later the residents of a New Jersey town wonder how a family could neglect children right in their midst. We'll talk with the state official charged with making sure such things do not happen.
That and much more as NEWSNIGHT continues back home in New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More now on the fires. When we spoke last night with Peter Brierty the San Bernardino Fire Marshall he told us he hoped his crews, lots of men and women out there would get some sleep and we hope they did, though honestly we can't imagine how.
He joins us again tonight to talk about a very difficult day and it was a very difficult day wasn't it?
PETER BRIERTY, FIRE MARSHALL, SAN BERNARDINO COUNTY: Yes, it was. It was very difficult. We had some significant successes in keeping the fire out of the mountain communities yesterday but the fire blew back into the small community of Cedar Glen which is right behind us. It also took off to the west of Crest Line and Valley of Enchantment and made a run for the desert, threatening the high desert communities of Hesparia and Apple Valley where we had to do evacuations.
BROWN: I hope this isn't so naive it is to be laughable but what do you need here? What has to happen to get this stuff under control at the very least? BRIERTY: Well, we're being subjected to extreme weather patterns. The winds were very high and erratic today. The fire was pushed out into the desert with a great rapid speed. We're just -- the weather has been a real serious enemy to us here.
Some of the things that happened, we had the death of the firefighter in San Diego and that affected a lot of folks but it actually strengthened our resolve that what happened there wouldn't be lost in vain and we're going to fight even harder.
It's just one of those tough things we're going to deal with but the firefighters are working very, very hard up here, again making very, very heroic and valiant efforts to save homes.
The great success of today, though, is we kept the fire out of the greater community of Lake Arrowhead and inside the greater community of Lake Arrowhead no structures were lost.
We are working very hard over in another community next to Lake Arrowhead called Cedar Pines Park, which is near Crest Line and also the success in Running Springs keeping the fire out of Running Springs and it's kind of headed off into the forested area but we're still prepared for it to turn around because the weather is totally unpredictable at this point.
Actually right now instead of low humidity and high winds we're actually getting some fog here and that moisture in the air is going to help us tremendously.
BROWN: As you're talking we're seeing pictures of some of the fires in your area, in the San Bernardino area that your...
BRIERTY: That's correct.
BROWN: ...crews are fighting and the fact is that in at least two other major areas of the region of Southern California similar pictures could be shot, similar efforts being made and similar concerns about the weather. Are the weather people giving you any hope that in the next day or two you'll see a break?
BRIERTY: We're hoping for that, yes. We're hoping for a little bit of moisture and that's the type of things that's really going to help us fight this thing.
BROWN: Tell me the condition of your crews. You talked about their resolve and we believe every word of it. They've been at this now for a week many of them. They must be exhausted.
BRIERTY: Absolutely, absolutely. Some of them haven't -- the folks that -- some folks didn't get some rest last night and we have folks that have been up for over 24 hours, some two days now, 48 hour shifts that are working straight through heavy duty firefighting. It's amazing that they're still standing on their feet but they're still going after it.
BROWN: Is there a strategy in place or are you simply reacting to a series of changing events?
BRIERTY: Well, we initially start with the strategy. Structure protection groups are set up in various areas that are designed, the way they're set up is designed around the terrain, around the expected wind patterns but what's happening is the wind shifts and the weather changes. We're having to react rapidly to those.
Luckily up here in the mountains we have a lot of our local crews remaining here and they know the area. They know the terrain. They know what the behavior is going to do so a lot of our county and local Running Springs, Crest force firefighters are here. They know what -- they know the streets. They know how to get around.
And the other thing sit he evacuation, although it's very difficult on the citizens it's incredibly helpful for us because it keeps the streets open and keeps the ability for us to move heavy equipment and manpower from place to place.
BROWN: Are people generally pretty cooperative?
BRIERTY: People have been very, very, very cooperative. Our thanks go out to the citizens for understanding the seriousness of this situation. We understand the pressure that they're under, the difficulties that they're dealing with living away form their homes but this is the type of thing and that cooperation, which we very much appreciate, is what's going to save this community.
BROWN: Chief, thanks for your work and thanks for your time tonight. We wish you nothing but good luck.
BRIERTY: You know we've got a lot of things...
BROWN: Go ahead.
BRIERTY: We've got a lot of things going against us but one of the things we've got going for us is we got the greatest firefighters in the world up here and they're going to get this job done.
BROWN: I believe you and I hope they get it done soon. Thank you, sir, very much. Thank you.
BRIERTY: Thank you.
BROWN: Coming up on the program still tonight we'll check in at the sniper trial, the testimony today of the youngest victim, a victim shot on his way to school.
We'll take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The sniper trial now. All week the prosecution has presented jurors of the testimony of people who lived through a nightmare. Witness after witness has told of watching a victim fall, seeing someone die or suffering a terrible wound themselves. The strategy apparently twofold, to place the defendant at a series of crime scenes and create an indelible impression on the jury, the second may be easier to do than the first. Today the youngest victim took the witness stand.
Here's CNN's Jeanne Meserve.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Fourteen-year- old sniper survivor Iron Brown (ph) described his shooting in stark and simple terms. It happened just after his aunt dropped him off at school.
"I opened the door and walked out. I put my book bag down and I got shot. It brought me closer to God" he testified.
Brown was calm, controlled, portraying no emotion but sitting across the room from John Muhammad was something that terrified and traumatized him, according to an attorney who briefly represented Iron's mother.
RICHARD BRYDGES, FAMILY ATTORNEY: I only have secondhand information from his mother, which I'm sure is absolutely accurate. He just lives in holy terror.
MESERVE: After he was shot, Iron made it back to his aunt's car. In court, Tanya Brown listened to the 911 call she made as she rushed him to a medical facility.
"Hold it, Iran. Hold it" she says apparently directing her nephew to apply pressure to his wound. "Oh my God, we've got to hurry up" she yells blowing her horn and urging other drivers to get out of the way.
When the tape was over, prosecutors asked Tonya Brown if Iran said anything to her during that horrifying drive. "He told me that he loved me," she replied tearfully.
The blue Chevy Caprice in which Muhammad and Lee Malvo were arrested is clearly central to the prosecution case. Evidence has been presented in eight of the D.C. area shootings and seven witnesses have testified to seeing the Caprice. Wednesday, retiree Alex Jones testified he was 80 percent certain he saw it at the October 4 Michaels craft store shooting.
When Patricia Bradshaw (ph) heard there had been a shooting at a Fredericksburg gas station, she testified that she said, "Oh, my God, that blue car," referring to the old Chevy she had seen slowly cruising by the scene.
(on camera): Witnesses at at least three locations have testified they told police about the Caprice immediately, but that information was not relayed to the public or to police manning roadblocks, and raises the question, could the sniper shootings have been stopped sooner? Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Virginia Beach, Virginia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: As NEWSNIGHT continues from New York, we turn to politics.
We'll be joined by Democratic senator and presidential hopeful Joe Lieberman.
We'll take a break first. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And we have lots more to do on the program tonight, including a family starving its own children, what the state plans to do to make sure it does not happen again anywhere. We'll, of course, check morning papers. And up next, Senator Joe Lieberman.
A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, the Senate began debate on what would be the first U.S. law to fight global warming by reducing carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases, a modest start. While the bill is widely expected to go down to defeat when the vote comes tomorrow, its backers say it is but an opening salvo in what has to be a very long effort to get the federal government to address the problem.
We're joined now by one of the bill's sponsors, also a Democratic presidential hopeful, Joe Lieberman. He joins us from Washington.
Senator, it's nice to see you.
Do you agree, by the way, that this vote is essentially symbolic? It gets people on the record, but it's not going to pass?
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, it's more than symbolic. It's a real proposal by John McCain and me, the most comprehensive anti-global warming proposal ever put before Congress, done so in the context of a Bush administration that not only has not done anything about global warming, but continues to deny the broad scientific consensus that the planet really is warming as a result of human activity.
So it's a real proposal. The odds are, it's not going to pass. But who knows? We've got a chance to surprise tomorrow. And the important thing is, we're having a good debate about it. And John McCain and I are not going to give up on this. McCain said on the floor tonight, Aaron, that he felt like he did when he got together with Russ Feingold on campaign finance reform. It took them a long while, but they did it. And we're going to do this one, too.
BROWN: If you look around the world, certainly, industrial countries around the world have taken a very serious look at the issue. In this country, state and local governments have taken, by far, more action than the federal government has on global warming. Why has the federal government, in your view, been slow to act?
LIEBERMAN: Listen, I think the people are way ahead of the Bush administration and the federal government. They know that this is a problem. They want us to do something about it before the consequences become very, very serious and it's more expensive to fix it. That's part of why the states have done some work on it.
Frankly, this Bush administration has just yielded to the special interests, who don't want to change. And they got to change for our environment, for our public health, and even for our economy, because really dealing with global warming will create a whole new industries of new energy jobs.
BROWN: Let's talk about a couple of other things. You've been out on the campaign now for a bit.
LIEBERMAN: Yes.
BROWN: Like all candidates, I suppose you've had some ups and downs. You strongly supported the war effort. You've had lots of questions since. Do you believe that a Democratic candidate who supported the war can get the nomination?
LIEBERMAN: Oh, yes indeed.
And I do because I think that, ultimately, the voters in the Democratic primaries and in the election next November are going to look for a president that they can trust to level with them, because they feel increasingly that George Bush has not done that. They're looking for somebody who can lead with integrity.
I have not waffled. I have not pandered. I did what I thought was sincerely right in the war. And I have tried to do it in just about everything else. The fact is that there are a lot of Democrats who are happy that Saddam Hussein is gone, but, like me, are upset that George Bush didn't tell the whole truth before the war and had no plan to deal with Iraq after the war.
I know I can do a better job as president. And that's the message I'm carrying across America.
BROWN: I saw a story today that the Pentagon's thinking of reducing significantly, apparently, the number of people, 1,400 people now, looking for WMDs in Iraq. What does that tell you?
LIEBERMAN: Well, it tells me that we don't have enough people there.
I mean, it is shocking. One of the ways in which this administration didn't have a plan is that we didn't have enough troops there to go in and secure the weapons sites, not just the weapons of mass destruction, but the conventional weapons that some of these insurgents are using now to kill Americans. We ought to continue the weapons search and to have enough troops there to fight the insurgency that's going on. And I think this is -- I hope it doesn't mean that we're giving up on the search for weapons of mass destruction. The president, again, has said that the search will go on. To say that they may move some of these personnel around makes that look like yet another incident in which the administration is not leveling with us.
BROWN: Senator, it's always good to see you. I hope you'll come back soon.
LIEBERMAN: I will, Aaron. You have a good night.
BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much, Senator Joe Lieberman.
LIEBERMAN: Thank you.
BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: Did the state fail to protect children being starved by their parents? And what will the state of New Jersey do to make sure this never happens again? We'll take a look at the story after the break.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the small New Jersey town of Collingswood, all attention tonight is focused on finding answers to a town tragedy. How did four adopted children, ages 9 to 19 and all under state supervision, each weigh less than 50 pounds? And how did the New Jersey Division of Youth and Family Services, the embattled agency responsible for checking up on these children, keeping them safe and well, allow this to happen?
It is always easy, and sometimes right, to look at state agencies involved in such tragedies. But sometimes, the answers to these cases are literally across the street, down the block, in a school, a store, in a community that also has to ask itself, what, if anything, did it know and do. A town meeting tonight is trying to come up with some answers.
Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JAMES MALEY, MAYOR OF COLLINGSWOOD, NEW JERSEY: How could these children have fallen through so many cracks?
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): People of Collingswood came to their town hall meeting with questions, mainly, how could no one notice four emaciated boys being starved, prosecutors say, by their own parents?
MALEY: We're distraught that something like this could happen here. FEYERICK: Prosecutors say the four adopted boys, ages 9 to 19, weighed less than 50 pounds each. They were discovered after a neighbor found one of the boys rifling through his trash, looking for food.
MICHAEL BYRD, NEIGHBOR: I woke my wife up. And I said, come. I said, come look. There's a little kid in the trash can eating in the trash can. She woke up, said: Put the trash back. We'll feed you if you're hungry.
FEYERICK: Investigators searched the family's home late Tuesday. Neighbors say they noticed the boys were small, but they believed things were fine, because a foster care worker from the Division of Youth and Family Services regularly visited one of the family's 11 kids.
Next-door neighbor Pete DiMattia.
PETE DIMATTIA, NEIGHBOR: They were here. At least once a month, they were here. So I just figured, the kids were thin because of maybe a medical condition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Jackson kids. There they are.
FEYERICK: In fact, at the church where the Jacksons prayed, friends say parents Raymond and Vanessa Jackson the told them the boys had eating disorders.
The tragedy is another black eye for New Jersey's governor and the foster care agency he vowed to reform in January, after a 7-year- old boy was found starved to death. Earlier this week, child welfare officials fired the nine case workers and managers involved in the Jackson case. But union officials for the workers say the agency is horribly understaffed and always in crisis.
PAUL ALEXANDER, ASSISTANT PRESIDENT, COMMUNICATIONS WORKERS OF AMERICA: Workers are just constantly treading water and oftentimes wind up drowning.
FEYERICK: Nineteen-year-old Bruce Jackson remains hospitalized. But officials say he's putting on weight. So are the other boys, who will be returned to foster care.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
FEYERICK: And, Aaron, the mayor says that people have called about adopting the boys. Donations are pouring in. One school is taking up a collection. Other schools are being encouraged to do the same. As for the Jacksons, they remain in custody. They're awaiting a court-appointed lawyer -- Aaron.
BROWN: Deborah, thank you very much -- Deborah Feyerick covering tonight.
Joining us here tonight, one hopes, to shed some light on all of this, either the specifics or, more broadly, the issues in that agency, a man with a very difficult job to do, Kevin Ryan, New Jersey's chief child advocate. That's his job. He represents kids. He's only a few weeks on to the job. He got into it in the wake of earlier tragedies, abuse problems, involving the same state agency.
It's good to see you, though we suspect we will only see you on days of such bad news.
Do we know much -- do you know much yet about this particular case and how it came to be? For example, do you have a concern that money played a role, that this family was paid to adopt these children?
KEVIN RYAN, NEW JERSEY CHILD ADVOCATE: Well, it may have, Aaron.
I think that the issue here is, how does this agency go to this house 38 times over the last several years -- utilities have been shut off for the last five months -- and these kids, who are obviously physically starving, never get rescued from that house? And the question that my investigators are working on right now is, how does this happen? How does a public agency so profoundly fail the most vulnerable children in our state?
BROWN: Is it, in your mind, a cop-out to say, look, these case workers are overburdened, there's too little money there? Is that just an easy out for the union representing the case workers?
RYAN: Well, I think, in some systems, it may be.
But I think New Jersey is one of those systems that appears to have missed every one of the major reforms in the 1990s. It's understaffed. It's under-resourced. But that's not the problem necessarily in this case, because the agency was there 38 times in the last four years. Time after time after time, an adult, a public official with a sacred, important responsibility for children, went into that house and missed it.
And there are important questions to be asked about why they missed it. Maybe Mrs. Jackson was especially duplicitous and deceitful. Or maybe the workers was disinterested, or maybe a combination of both. I don't know. I'm working on that question tonight.
BROWN: Do you think -- we talked about this just before we went on the air. Of course, the family ultimately is responsible, OK. And, ultimately, the state has responsibility. It was charged with taking care of these kids. But they didn't live in a vacuum. They went to church. They had lives.
RYAN: Right.
BROWN: They were out there. They weighed 50 pounds and no one said anything. How can that be? What does that say about us?
RYAN: I think it raises the most profound questions about society, about community. I think it's possible that the neighbors were hoodwinked into believing that the children were sick. I think it's possible that the church where the family was especially engaged thought that the Jacksons were doing all that they could. But the truth is, these boys are especially fragile. And it seems very hard for me to believe that that was missed entirely by the community.
But I think tonight, by virtue of the fact that that town, in sort of an unprecedented way, came together around this crisis and people sort of came out of their homes, there was this huge outpouring of interest, shows that I think it's innate in the American spirit that we really want to be more for kids. The question is, how do you ensure that the public systems that are there for kids when their parents aren't work?
BROWN: People watching this tonight -- they're watching it somewhere in New Jersey, but somewhere in Montana or Wyoming or all over the country, all over the world -- what would you like them to do with this, with this information, with this story, with this tragedy?
RYAN: I think our politics are about things that are important to us. So we have a lot of interests.
People have a politics of Social Security and taxes and the environment and education. And those are all things that endure. But the politics of child welfare tend to come and go. And they tend to be in reaction to a crisis. And I think the thing that people have to do is be extraordinary. They have to make the politics of child welfare enduring. They have to care about it. They have to welcome kids into their homes.
The governor said to me yesterday, one of the things that this system said is a lot more engaged and proactive public officials and a lot more families willing to do extraordinary things. I think his outrage is probably going to fuel reform in this state. And I think that, if I do my job, put the white hot spotlight on this system and demand accountability, we'll be a step further along.
But when the cameras leave and attention recedes, this system will still need to be more for 50,000 kids who desperately need it to care for them.
BROWN: I feel like we've spent the night wishing people good luck. We can't wish you more luck than that. Somebody's got to do something over there.
RYAN: Thanks, Aaron.
BROWN: Good luck, sir.
RYAN: Thank you.
BROWN: Thank you.
Check morning papers. We'll take a break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: Okeydokey, time to check morning papers from around the country.
A lot of local stories, but the fires in California make most front pages. They certainly make the front page of "The Sun," "The Sun" being the newspaper of San Bernardino County. We appreciate them getting us a paper. That's an early deadline for them. And that's really nice. "Mountains Trapped: Unstoppable Force Surrounds Resort Cities, 200-Foot Wall of Flames Reaches Lake Arrowhead." That's a pretty cool picture, isn't it? You can see the helicopter. It's looks like a praying mantis. I'm not sure you can see quite, but there it is. And the weather there tomorrow, because it matters, hazy sunshine, I guess, high 79, air quality, unhealthful. Yes.
It also makes the front page of "The Richmond Times-Dispatch," Virginia's news leader. "Wild Fires Threatening Evacuated Resort Towns, 11 Wildfires, 621,000 Acres Burns, 20 People Killed, 2,100 Homes Destroyed." That's the main story in "The Richmond Times- Dispatch."
"Chattanooga Times Free Press." I think this might be the first time we've had this paper. But, in any case, we're glad to have it out of Chattanooga, Tennessee. Down in the corner, I like this story. "Lobbyists Line Up For Piece of Corporate Tax Cut Pie." No kidding. Wow. I'm shocked. Anyway, there's a tax bill in the House, $128 billion, I think, all going to business taxes. And business interests want a piece of it, so they're lobbying their little heads off.
"The San Antonio Express" -- "Express-News." We should get the whole thing. "Forget the Alamo For Now. Release of the Movie and Premiere Are Delayed Until Spring as Director Takes More Time to Polish Film," the film on the Alamo. When they take more time to polish it, it rarely works out, don't you think?
One minute?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BROWN: OK. Cool. One, two, three.
"The Detroit News." I like this story, too. "Read Their Lips: Raise Our Taxes." It's a columnist, I believe, Laura Berman's piece. "In One Metro Suburb," metro of Detroit, "Some Homeowners Willing to Pay More to Save City Services." So that's a pretty good local story. And also, as often happens in Detroit, a sports story on the front page. "Women Pro Sports Strain to Build Niche. Lack of Sponsors, Fans Leaves Leagues Teetering."
And we'll end it with the "Chicago Sun-Times." "Daley to Teacher: Hey, It's Not a Bad Deal." They're in a teachers negotiation. The weather tomorrow in Chicago is "freakish." Up here, they'll put the Chicago Bulls basketball, but they don't have it yet. So what did they put for us? "Aaron 'Automatic' Brown Scores 30 For Bulls, Then Anchors NEWSNIGHT." That would be a double-double, in basketball terms.
We'll take a break and we'll update the top story, look ahead to tomorrow. This is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Before we go tonight, we want to quickly catch you up on the fires out West in California.
We said at the top, it's nearly impossible for anyone to say when or how this is going to end. The numbers are easy enough to come by. And they are sobering: more than 600,000 acres burned, 2,400 homes destroyed; 18 people have died, by our count, including tonight a firefighter.
But beyond that, no one has much of a grip on the larger picture. What we're left with tonight are dozens of pieces and places and moments that make up the story.
So we leave you tonight with that, as seen by the photographers of "The Los Angeles Times."
Again, we find ourselves dazzled by the power of stills. Tomorrow night, we'll hear about the experience of one of the "L.A. Times" photographers covering the fires, look at her photographs. That's tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT.
That's our program for tonight. Up next for our international viewers, "World News"; those of you in the states, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT."
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern. Good night.
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