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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Rockets Launched at Security Zone in Baghdad; Families Cope With Loss of Loved Ones in Iraq

Aired November 04, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again to you.
We saw today in the "Washington Post" a most disturbing quote. It was spoken by a lieutenant stationed near Fallujah, that nasty of all places these days in Iraq. Being stationed there, no doubt, affects his view.

When asked if they were getting things under control he said this: "It seems like every enemy we get there's another one to take his place." He added: "I don't know whether that's true or not, that's above me, but that's the way it seems."

In our nightly effort to report this story to understand it fairly those are chilling words from a part of the country where success for Americans remains elusive.

Iraq again leads the program and leads the whip. We start in Baghdad, CNN's Jane Arraf with the duty, Jane a headline from you.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, for the second night in a row a barrage of rockets hit central Baghdad this one breaching the security of the coalition's so-called secure zone.

BROWN: Jane, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

The White House next, our Senior White House Correspondent John King, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, at one point today the president said he was sure that Saddam Hussein was trying to stir up trouble in Iraq. Seconds later, Mr. Bush said, look, I don't know what he's doing but he did insist this, in the president's words, "years from now the world will look back and say thank goodness America stayed the course" -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

And finally here to Boston where those who want the president's job gathered tonight, eight of them did at least, a very lively session. CNN's Candy Crowley is there for us, Candy a headline.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Wesley Clark doesn't like the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. Joe Lieberman has never smoked marijuana and Al Sharpton would most like to party with John Kerry's wife. And, oh yes, there was that little matter of the confederate flag. They were right, Aaron, this was not your father's debate.

BROWN: Candy, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also tonight we'll talk with William Bennett to get his opinions on what the Bush administration needs to do now in Iraq.

Later, the uproar over the Ronald Reagan miniseries, what's this all about? Why did CBS decide to pull the plug?

And in Segment 7 tonight four-legged inmates being cared for by two legged ones the prisoners and the ponies.

And then our favorite animal, the rooster of course will be here to herald the arrival of our morning papers with an exclusive for NEWSNIGHT, all of that and more in the hour ahead.

A very full night, one that begins in the Green Zone that portion of Baghdad along the Tigris River made into an enclave by the U.S. Army and targeted overnight by the bad guys. No one died but people were hurt and another message was loudly sent.

We begin with CNN's Jane Arraf.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): For the coalition, the attacks are hitting closer to home, what appeared to be rockets launched into the coalition security zone. Inside the barricades that house the former palace now the coalition headquarters, as well as a hotel and convention center, three explosions and four people wounded the coalition said. It said none of the blasts took place within the palace itself.

Security experts said from the sound they were rockets fired from not far away. Across the street, residents told us the buildings shook.

"It was a loud noise as if it were a bomb exploding" said Mahmud Falad (ph). "The noise was like a whistle. Next we saw smoke from behind this building over there."

After the initial scare, people carried on with their shopping. The attack, the second in two nights on the coalition's so-called Green Zone, followed two assassinations of senior judges beyond Baghdad.

In the northern city of Mosul the deputy of the Provincial Appeals Court, Ismail Yussef Saddek, was gunned down. In the south in the holy city of Najaf, the judge who had founded a committee to investigate crimes by the former regime was kidnapped and shot dead.

And in the midst of the precarious security in Baghdad, coalition member Spain announced it was pulling out some of its civilian experts for consultations. It said the two diplomats at the embassy would remain. "It's a complicated moment in Iraq now," the foreign minister was quoted as saying.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: It's amazing how quickly things become normal here. In that street across from the palace, across from the coalition headquarters, not a great neighborhood to be living in these days, people we talked to there said they really thought they were going to die. The explosions were that close but a few minutes later they were out in the streets just going shopping, eating dinner and they said what can you do? You have to live with this -- Aaron.

BROWN: And is that what it's like these days in the sense that people accept that they just have to live with the danger and the uncertainty and the rest?

ARRAF: Iraqis are really good at living with danger and uncertainty. They've done it for a long, long time through three wars and all sorts of other things going on. Now this again is a new kind of danger. That one they could sort of predict. This one is unpredictable.

It comes from everywhere in all sorts of forms but it's developing a sort of permanence here and that's what worries people. But, at the same time, that's what allows them to get on with a little bit of a semblance of normal life it seems -- Aaron.

BROWN: I'm sorry, and just quickly, who do they blame for this? Do they blame the Americans for this violence or do they blame the people who are perpetrating it?

ARRAF: It depends where they think it's coming from. For the homegrown violence, and that's who they believe is behind the attacks likely on the U.S. and coalition targets, they blame the Americans for being there to a large extent.

For the other things, the suicide bombs that kill Iraqis no one really wants to believe that those are Iraqis behind it. They blame these foreign fighters and the borders being opened. But, then again, they blame that on the United States as well for leaving those borders open. It's kind of hard to win here -- Aaron.

BROWN: It seems like it, Jane. Thank you very much, Jane Arraf in Baghdad.

There is only the barest of comfort to be had in reporting that 15 and not 16 soldiers died when their helicopter was shot down on Sunday near Fallujah. The Pentagon provided that clarification today. It also identified the remaining five who died.

But given that the number of 20 others were hurt and some of them are in very rough shape that number may yet rise again, 15, 16 or 26, the hard work of grieving in fact is done one soldier and one family at a time and is being done so that way tonight.

Here's CNN's Ed Lavandera.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN DALLAS BUREAU CHIEF: Through the tears they muster the strength to honor their loved ones. From Fort Carson, Colorado, the wife of Staff Sergeant Daniel Bader:

TIFFANY BADER, WIFE OF SGT. DANIEL BADER: I just want the world to know that my husband was a great man.

LAVANDERA: From Oklahoma, the stepmother of Sergeant Ross Pennanen.

LINDA PENNANEN, ROSS PENNANEN'S STEPMOTHER: Oh, he was a great father.

LAVANDERA: And in Fort Wayne, Indiana, a grandmother must explain to the son of Specialist Brian Penisten why daddy won't be able to keep this promise.

MONA PENISTEN, MOTHER OF SPC. BRIAN PENISTEN: He had sent him a note and he said: "I hope you're having a good day son. I'll be home to see you. Next year I'll be home for your birthday and every day. What do you think of that, every day, Love, Daddy."

LAVANDERA: The pain these families feel is perhaps heightened by the thought that most of them were so close to being home even if it was just for a short vacation.

ROSE WILSON, GRANDMOTHER OF STAFF SGT. JOE WILSON: And you wouldn't think that he would leave you trying to come home and that's the part that hurts so bad is the way he went.

BADER: I'm angry at how it happened. I feel that we are over there for a reason.

LAVANDERA: Reasons and answers are hard for Donald Bucklew to come by. He's been coping with the sudden death of his wife. His son, Sergeant Ernest Bucklew was supposed to be by his side when they buried her.

DONALD BUCKLEW, FATHER OF SGT. ERNEST BUCKLEW: Pretty much complete numbness. It was totally unbelievable that this could happen because I know that he was having a hard time.

For the short time he was on the helicopter he was having an extremely hard time, you know, realizing why he'd be coming home because he loves his mother very much and he made a real effort every chance the communications would allow to call us.

And my thoughts more so were, you know, were worrying about him and what he was going through traveling, you know, to try to get home and then the phone call Sunday night just -- it was pretty much complete numbness. I mean your mind races and you think of a thousand things.

LAVANDERA: Well, all those things weigh heavily on these families. Most of them have asked that the rest of the country remember just one thing that even though the war might be over soldiers still sacrifice their lives.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, Dallas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Even in the best of times a president rarely has the luxury of dealing with one crisis at a time so today President Bush was dealing with two. He viewed the devastation in Southern California and he spoke out once again on the death and destruction in Iraq.

Here's our Senior White House Correspondent John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The day's goal was to take a firsthand look at the devastation and to promise the federal government will do all it can to help victims of California's wildfires.

There was a greeting from the governor and the governor-elect, a show of post recall solidarity in the face of a crisis that left more than 20 dead and more than 3,500 homes destroyed.

But as Mr. Bush stepped from the rubble of what days ago was a residential development he was asked about the latest explosions in Baghdad and whether he thinks Saddam Hussein is directing the attacks.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't know. Look, I can't tell you what he's doing. All I can tell you is he's not running Iraq and all I can tell you as well there's a lot -- some people who are upset by the fact that he's no longer in power.

KING: This was the first opportunity to question the president about Sunday's missile strike on an Army Chinook helicopter, at least 15 soldiers killed in the deadliest day in Iraq since Mr. Bush declared major combat over six months ago.

BUSH: They were making America more secure and I want to thank their families for the ultimate sacrifice.

KING: It was hardly the first time turmoil in Iraq overshadowed a carefully planned presidential visit and another new poll underscored the president's political challenge.

Only 48 percent of those surveyed in a national (unintelligible) college poll last week approved of how the president is handling the situation in Iraq, down from 76 percent back in April. Mr. Bush predicts opinions will change in time.

BUSH: Years from now people will sit back and say thank goodness America stayed the course and did what was necessary to win this battle in the war on terror.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: You heard the president there say years, plural, from now. Of course it is just one year, exactly one year now, until the voters decide whether Mr. Bush deserves a second term. Here at the White House they now realize very much so that improving the security situation in Iraq is not only an immediate policy concern for this White House but a very pressing political concern as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: I'm just trying to understand how the White House was shaping the message today what the president is saying, what he's not saying. I didn't hear him speak, and you'll correct me I know, he didn't speak specifically about the attack, the implications of the attack. He talked about the soldiers.

KING: He didn't speak about the implications of the attack and he does not want to and many have criticized this White House, reporters included, trying to question the press secretary about why we hadn't heard from the president directly about the most deadly day, the downing of that Chinook helicopter.

So, the White House realized the president needed to take some questions today. The goal with the president, who is the administration's chief messenger of course, is to try to talk big picture and to try to make the case that things are getting better and that any tactical adjustments will be made.

But it's an awkward situation for this president, as you noted, trying to deal with the fires on this day. He is also trying to deal with the economy as well but they realize here at the White House and the poll numbers only reinforce it that the American people are beginning to turn a corner when it comes to trusting this president on post-war in Iraq. They are trying to re-turn that corner if you will and the president has to take the lead. They know that.

BROWN: John, thank you very much, John King at the White House tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk with Bill Bennett about what the president's policy in Iraq is, what he should be saying or not saying.

We'll also look at the Dover dilemma why the public can't see the bodies of servicemen who die in action when they come home.

And later, was it art or politics? What's behind CBS' cancellation of the Ronald Reagan miniseries, lots to do tonight?

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We're pleased to have William Bennett with us tonight. Bill Bennett, the former cabinet member, a frequent author of a library of titles it seems, including "Why we Fight: Moral Clarity in the war on Terrorism." Mr. Bennett joins us tonight from Washington, D.C. It's nice to see you, sir.

WILLIAM BENNETT, WASHINGTON FELLOW, THE CLAREMONT INSTITUTE: Thank you. BROWN: It is said that when Americans understand the mission and accept the premise of the mission they will, we will, endure the casualties.

BENNETT: Right.

BROWN: Do you believe that we as a country understand the mission and accept the premise of the mission in Iraq these days?

BENNETT: I think most do but I think some clarification and emphasis is in order and it's in order daily and on a regular basis. I'm thinking -- I was watching the Democrat debate earlier tonight and I was thinking of that line from William Butler Yates who says:

"The best lack all conviction. The worst are full of passion and intensity."

I don't want to say the Democratic group was the worst. They're not my cup of tea but that aside there's a lot of passion and intensity on that side and there needs to be, I think, as much passion and intensity in the defense of this war.

I think the president needs to have the intensity that his critics have and I think more people need to show that and speak with the kind of conviction about this effort. I believe this is one of the greatest things this country has done. I think this is one of our finest hours and I don't think we should hesitate to talk about it in those terms.

BROWN: Is the problem, do you think, that the president hasn't defended the war, the administration or supporters of the war haven't defended it with as much passion as they should or as aggressively as they should or that in the day-to-day, the post-war planning does not look as good as the war planning itself?

BENNETT: Well, it may have something to do with the news cycle, you know, and PR people and news people tend to think about the news cycle and about what are we going to do today? What are we going to do, you know, this afternoon, this evening and tomorrow?

But I think there needs to be a larger perspective on this which is to explain to the American people why these soldiers died, why they did not die in vain, that this was one of the most brutal dictatorships we have seen, a dictatorship with hostile intent toward us and toward others, that the kinds of things that have been going on in Iraq are inevitable given the situation that was there before.

A super power like the United States, yes, can defeat the army of Iraq pretty easily but now comes the very hard part and I think again the president needs to say, you know, not every day is going to show progress on every front. There are going to be some terrible days.

There are going to be some bloody days but this is already a far better country than it was before and indeed better than many of its neighboring countries because of the U.S. effort. Remind people of what it is we were fighting for, which is the same ideals that this country has always had and remind people of the response of most of the Iraqi people to our presence.

BROWN: Do you worry at all that with the political pressures of an election a year away that the administration will move too quickly to, I guess the term is the Iraqification of the country, training Iraqi military police, et cetera, letting them run the show and in a sense getting out before the job is done?

BENNETT: Yes, that is a worry. I think it's a worry not only because of the election cycle but because we live in what someone has called the instant culture, you know, everything has to be done and done quickly.

I noticed Kofi Annan's comments over the last few months saying let's get this thing done. Let's turn it over to the Iraqis. I didn't hear that when it came to the Balkans. These things take time. It took time in Germany. It took time in Japan. It will take time in Iraq.

But, again, these are things the president and his men and his people can explain to us and explain, you know, that these things are not built and accomplished in a day.

And, while we are in the process we will, of course, be attacked by now not just the dead-enders from Saddam but those who have predicted that we would run, that we would flee, and this is a very important thing.

If we remember what Osama bin Laden said before and after 9/11, he said we're paper tigers and when the going gets tough we will run. We will flee. We cannot prove him true.

BROWN: Mr. Bennett, it's really nice to have you on the program. I hope you'll come back soon.

BENNETT: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you, Bill Bennett from Washington tonight.

There are, where Iraq is concerned, no shortage of things to debate and we just tossed around a couple of them. This one is among the most unpleasant. You've never seen a single one of the hundreds of Americans killed in combat arrive home.

You've not seen a casket carried off a plane, the honor guard, the sorrow. Such scenes used to be shown all the time, routine to use a perfectly horrible word but no more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Here more than anywhere else is the final reality of war, the slow and ceremonial march that brings the fallen sons and now daughters too home to grieving families. And this is where it occurs, the immense Air Force base at Dover, Delaware, the only military mortuary in the Continental United States.

For many years it was a public event for fighters lost in Beirut or Panama, the Persian Gulf, for a cabinet member lost in a plane crash, for shuttle astronauts who fell to the earth in flames but not this time, not this war. We can't show it to you. The Pentagon will not allow it.

When President Clinton sent the military into Haiti and the Balkans there was discussion of something called the Dover test, the idea that seeing too many coffins will turn public opinion against the war. Now, opponents of the Bush administration are claiming that this closure at Dover is aimed at eliminating just such images.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: We have to recognize that we are engaged in a very difficult conflict. That is certainly not lost on the men and women stationed in Iraq or on their families who are worrying about their well being and it should not lead to trying to avoid the site of caskets coming home.

BROWN: The Defense Department insists it intends no censorship that this is simply the enforcement of a policy of privacy and respect a decade old.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: There is no attempt to hide anything. It's a normal procedure.

BROWN: It is true that pictures have been banned since just before the first Gulf War. Christopher Simpson, who teaches courses on communications and propaganda at American University, thinks it's more than business as usual.

CHRISTOPHER SIMPSON, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: I think it's fair to say that this administration and this war is by far the most sophisticated and by far the most aggressive, for lack of a better word, in crafting images of combat, of war in general to suit its purposes.

BROWN: Are we losing the facts we need to make informed decisions or have we lost something else, an intangible contact with those we've sent to sacrifice for all of us, a ceremonial farewell and a recognition of our collective responsibility?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A debate far from settled.

Coming up on the program politics and the generation gap, how did the Democrat candidates for president do when they faced young voters? Candy Crowley joins us with a "ROCK THE VOTE" report after the break.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: November, Tuesday, Election Day, votes being counted tonight in a number of places around the country. Kentucky is headed for a Republican governor for the first time in 32 years. Republican Ernie Fletcher beat the Democratic Attorney General Ben Chandler there. And in a very closely watched race, John Street, the mayor of Philadelphia, who may or may not be in the middle of a federal investigation but certainly is at the center of a controversy, the mayor there has handily been reelected according to the Associated Press.

CNN's Jason Carroll is at Street headquarters in Philadelphia and Jason joins us now. Good evening.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And good evening to you, Aaron. There is a lot of celebrating going on in this room tonight, as you said, the Associated Press just before ten o'clock declaring John Street the winner. More than two-thirds of the returns are now in. It's John Street, 59 percent, Republican challenger Sam Katz 41 percent.

And political watchers here in this town will tell you, as strange as it sounds, that a FBI bug changed everything in the way that this campaign was run. Basically, it was around October 7th, as you may remember, that it was learned that the FBI had planted a bug in the mayor's office, a listening device as part of some sort of a federal investigation into possible political corruption.

And after that, Aaron, that really galvanized, that really energized his support base. That's really what got the people out, got the voters out. We have yet to hear at this point from Sam Katz or from Mayor Street but, as I said before, a lot of celebrating going on in this room tonight -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jason, thank you very much, Jason Carroll in Philadelphia.

This Election Day, the battle was also being fought for the Democratic spot on next year's presidential ballot. Eight candidates met in a debate held by CNN and "ROCK THE VOTE" in Boston, a very lively affair.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY (voice-over): No apologies for saying he also wants to be the candidate of guys with confederate flags on their pickups but Howard Dean said he was happy to explain.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Martin Luther King said that it was his dream that the sons of slave holders and the sons of slaves sit down around a table and make common good.

CROWLEY: It was like somebody lit a match to kerosene.

AL SHARPTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First of all, Martin Luther King said "come to the table of brotherhood." You can't bring a confederate flag to the table of brotherhood.

CROWLEY: While Al Sharpton took on Dean from the perspective of an African American, North Carolina's John Edwards criticized the Vermont governor for being condescending to White southerners.

JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because let me tell you the last thing we need in the south is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do. That's the last thing in the world we need in the south.

DEAN: I'm not going to take a backseat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry.

CROWLEY: Explanations aside there is no way around the central truth having to explain your position on the confederate flag is never a debate plus. Say this for a young audience, 30 and under, they seem to energize a field grown tired of these 90-minute jousts for air time. The event ranged from serious to funny to offbeat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're the manager of the Boston Red Sox.

CROWLEY: Weirdest moment John Kerry's explanation of why he hunts.

JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, it's a tough economy now and it's amazing what you have to go to to put food on the table. I mean, no look, I've been a hunter all my life but I make a point of eating what I kill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: Weirdest question who would you most like to party with. For the record, Al Sharpton said John Kerry's wife -- Aaron.

BROWN: Candy, thank you very much. It was a very successful night up there. It was fun to watch. It was good television. Thank you.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, the miniseries with major problems, why did CBS cancel the Ronald Reagan miniseries and why is there such an uproar about it all?

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the uproar over the Ronald Reagan miniseries and more. We're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Biography, a long forgotten author once said, is a very definite region bounded on the north by history, on the south by fiction, on the east by obituary and on the west by tedium. Somewhere along the road, critics say, the producers of a miniseries on Ronald and Nancy Reagan lost their bearings.

CBS was supposed to air it two weeks from now in the middle of the big November sweeps with the expectation that it would be a ratings blockbuster. Instead, the network wound up with a political stink bomb and today decided to unload it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Now, 92 and ailing, Ronald Reagan is the patron saint of the conservative Republican movement and conservatives moved aggressively to protect his and Mrs. Reagan's image when details of the script started leaking late last month. From "The New York Times" to Matt Drudge's Web site, snippets of the script suggested to Republicans at least something less than a flattering portrayal.

ED GILLESPIE, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: My concern is people are going to watch that and they're going to come away thinking well that's what Ronald Reagan was like.

BROWN: In one scene, the former president is said to have taken an especially callus position on funding for AIDS. In the script he says: "They that live in sin shall die in sin."

In many scenes, Mrs. Reagan was said to be the controlling force in the White House, protecting her husband, relying on an astrologer to set his schedule and more. Even the choice of James Brolin, the husband of Barbra Streisand, to play Mr. Reagan was seen as proof of the bias in the program.

CBS came under enormous pressure. Members of Congress complained. Conservative Web sites launched advertiser boycotts and today CBS gave up on the project saying it would sell it to pay-per- view Showtime owned by its parent company as well.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: It sounds to me like they were intimidated in making decisions that reversed earlier ones and I'm disappointed. I think anytime occasions arise when the essence of the judgment made by television producers is influenced by outside forces we have to call into question whether that level of intimidation is appropriate.

BROWN: CBS issued a short written statement today saying: "This decision is based solely on our reaction to seeing the final film, not the controversy that erupted around a draft of the script."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's what CBS said today that the controversy, the threats of boycott and the rest had nothing to do with the decision. This probably would not be a story if it were not for the work of Jim Ruttenberg who writes on television for "The New York Times" and obtained the first snippets of the script. Mr. Ruttenberg joins us from Washington tonight, nice to see you.

JIM RUTTENBERG, REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Good to see you.

BROWN: When did you get the sense that CBS started to realize it had a problem?

RUTTENBERG: Probably a few days after our story first ran because when the story did first run they seemed OK. It seemed like there was some controversy but I don't think they were expecting anywhere near the controversy that they ended up getting.

BROWN: Just, I'm curious did you expect the controversy they ended up getting?

RUTTENBERG: To a degree but not to the extent that it ended up being.

BROWN: I mean it ended up in that kind of giant world of Internet, talk radio and the rest and for the last couple of weeks has been fodder.

RUTTENBERG: Right. Unbelievable, it just built and built and built and fed upon itself to the point where here we are. I can't believe that they are going to cancel it. I really didn't think that was going to happen.

BROWN: You did not?

RUTTENBERG: No, no.

BROWN: At what point did you begin to think that they might then?

RUTTENBERG: You know I guess when I stopped hearing from executives and people involved with the production. When it got very quiet I started getting the gist that something was going down, the film was going down.

BROWN: Yes, it sure did. Was that yesterday, two days ago, you know when in this timeline did you start to get, those are clear signs to a reporter, when they stop returning your calls you know that there's trouble, several days ago?

RUTTENBERG: Yes, I guess it was a few days ago, probably late last week I started really getting suspicious.

BROWN: Is it your feeling that CBS, the executives of CBS, the people that run the joint as opposed to the people who produced the miniseries, were blindsided by the content?

RUTTENBERG: I can't see how that could be because they knew that at least one major publication was going to be writing about the film. They were starting to promote it. I don't see how they could be blindsided by the content. Maybe they hadn't looked as carefully or as closely as they should have but they had to know the gist of the script. I mean I was speaking to them days before my story ran.

BROWN: But prior to the point the story ran when they approved the project and went ahead with the project you believe they knew the details of the script at that point?

RUTTENBERG: I think perhaps the very top level of CBS did not know all the details in the script.

BROWN: Well they presumably know them now. Do you believe what they said that the controversy had nothing to do with the decision to yank it?

RUTTENBERG: I don't know. I have to withhold any judgment. That's what they say. They say that they looked at the script. They came to a new conclusion. I'm sorry, they looked at the final film. They came to a new conclusion. It had nothing to do with the pressure. That's what they say. That's what I as a reporter have to report so I'll let others make the judgment.

BROWN: You're a very disciplined reporter. We appreciate that. Jim, thank you very much.

RUTTENBERG: Thanks.

BROWN: Jim Ruttenberg who reported the story first for "The New York Times." This has, needless to say, become political red meat for those who would shout bias and those who would scream censorship.

Given our druthers, the less screaming and shouting on this program the better for us and we're certain to get some help. We really believe that on that score from Josh Marshall, the blogger behind Talkingpointsmemo.com. He joins us from Washington.

And here in New York, Rich Lowry, the editor of the "National Review" and the author of "Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years," good to see you both.

Rich, let me start with you but the same question to both. What is this about?

RICH LOWRY, AUTHOR, "LEGACY: PAYING THE PRICE FOR THE CLINTON YEARS": Well, it's about a false and defamatory betrayal of Ronald Reagan. You know, a miniseries doesn't have to be totally accurate.

That's a ridiculous standard. But when you're putting words into Reagan's mouth that he would never say and very likely never think in terms he would never speak, you know, people with AIDS deserve to die.

BROWN: Right.

LOWRY: That crosses a line.

BROWN: So, it is only about authenticity. There's no -- there's nothing else here?

LOWRY: Well, I mean there's an element of politics. Of course, conservatives are more upset about this than anyone else but I think it had a broader resonance which is why CBS had to back down. There's a certain fondness that people hold Reagan in for his presidency and also given his condition now.

BROWN: OK, Josh what do you think this was about?

JOSHUA MICAH MARSHALL, TALKING POINTS MEMO.COM: In all due respect, I think what Rich just said was ridiculous.

BROWN: With all due respect.

MARSHALL: Exactly, with all due respect as always. Look this is clearly people like Rich and others who are critics of this miniseries really this isn't about that it's biased or unfair or anything like that because they can't know because they haven't seen it.

So, this is really all about their not wanting there to be really anything negative said about Ronald Reagan and for people who are great admirers of his I can understand that, I guess.

But -- so the problem here is not so much that Rich and his friends basically whined and made a whole hullabaloo about this. The problem is the cowardice of the executives at CBS.

I mean the idea that this had nothing to do with the pressure exerted by Republicans and conservatives is ridiculous and I understand how a reporter for "The New York Times" who has to cover this can't venture an opinion but I'll venture an opinion.

There's no way that's true so, you know, look I think this is about partisanship. This is about conservatives are very organized with the way they go after this and in a sense I don't even fault them. The problem is that CBS was so gutless and gave into this.

LOWRY: Well, can I make two points about that?

BROWN: Please.

LOWRY: First of all...

BROWN: With all due respect.

LOWRY: Yes, with all, of course, with all due respect parts of the script were leaked to people so we saw a reporting about...

MARSHALL: Which part do you see a problem with, Rich?

LOWRY: Well, Reagan saying he's an Antichrist. Reagan saying that he's glad...

MARSHALL: Wait, do you think...

LOWRY: Josh, let me just -- can I just finish. Just let me make...

MARSHALL: Do you think he said that, that he's an Antichrist?

BROWN: Josh, let him make a point.

LOWRY: Let me make a point.

BROWN: Let him make it.

LOWRY: So, the script was reported on. There was also trailers that were floating around out there and the fact is this is a tactic that the left has embraced for years. Boycotts are great things, right? Now, when the right does it we have the left screaming censorship and this isn't censorship at all.

Networks decide what to run and what not to run all the time and people who desperately want to see this probably cheesy and very inaccurate miniseries can tune in to Showtime. Invite people to your house, Josh. Have a party over it, you know. Take shots every time Reagan says something hateful or vicious.

MARSHALL: You know, Rich, I have no desire to see this because I take it as a given that every docudrama is cheesy and not really worth anybody watching.

LOWRY: Well, we can agree about that.

MARSHALL: But, look, the idea that in this documentary Reagan says in some serious vein that he's the Antichrist I really doubt that's the context, and the point about the statement about AIDS, who knows if he ever said that but his official biographer in his biography of Reagan says that he said something very similar to that. So, this is hardly something utterly bizarre.

LOWRY: Well...

MARSHALL: I mean look that was 20 years ago. Just let me finish now.

LOWRY: Sure.

MARSHALL: This is someone who obviously lived much of his life early in this century so it's not a matter of, you know, beating up on him for something like that but this isn't defamatory. Listen, a) you can't know since you haven't seen it but I haven't frankly seen anything that says this is really anything more than critical and, as far as I know, we can still be critical of Ronald Reagan in this country.

BROWN: Well, let -- Rich, let me ask you a question.

LOWRY: Sure, yes.

BROWN: You've literally written a book on President Clinton. Do you think if this were about President Clinton, if there were stretches in a docudrama about President Clinton you would see this hue and cry from the left and that a network would capitulate? Do you believe that?

LOWRY: Well, first of all, I don't think Hollywood would produce as critical a portrayal of Bill Clinton. Now, if there is a betrayal of Bill Clinton that say had him after the Black Hawk down incident in Somalia saying, gosh you know deep down I hate the military. I'm glad those guys died. That would be outrageous and you would see screaming from the left and if a network like CBS looked at it and decided it was indefensible, yes, it would be pulled.

And, one last point on Josh's points. CBS has seen this thing and they told us today that it's biased and they can't defend it and they don't want to run it and when CBS says something like that I believe them.

BROWN: And on that note, Josh I wish we could.

MARSHALL: They can't say anything else because otherwise they'd have to admit they're cowards.

BROWN: That's a fair way to end it, nice to have you with us. Nice to see you again Rich, thank you very much.

LOWRY: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: Good to have you both.

MARSHALL: Thank you.

BROWN: We'll take a break. When we come back, Segment 7 and a wild horse is part of a prison program to help inmates learn jobs and responsibility, a change of pace but that's what NEWSNIGHT is. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: You can argue forever about what prisons ought to do, whether their mission should be rehabilitation or punishment or simply keeping bad people off the streets.

Wherever you stand though there's no disputing this. Sooner or later the vast majority of inmates get out, many of them better criminals, a few better cowboys.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): While most minimum security prisoners count off each day like this or like this, fantasizing about life on the outside, every morning James Matthew Davis and several dozen fellow inmates here become cowboys of a kind.

JAMES MATTHEW DAVIS, INMATE: Before I came in this program I had no working knowledge whatsoever of horses so now, I mean, when I got out if I wanted to go train horses for people that's a pretty good job skill to have and I've learned I can vaccinate horses, give shots, learn how to shoe horses out here.

BROWN: His home on the range, 65 acres within the 5,500 acre state prison complex in Canyon City, Colorado.

FRANCIS ACKLEY, BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT: The wild horse inmate program started here in Canyon City in 1986 and it was basically just some guys from the BLM office in town got together with some guys from the prison and said, hey, you know you have labor. We have horses.

BROWN: In a program that not everyone agrees makes sense the U.S. Bureau of Land Management rounds up mustangs in nine western states where it says the animals are over populated in their natural habitats. In Canyon City and other western prisons with similar programs inmates learn to care for nearly 800 horses and burrows at a time, training them as pets or work animals for people to someday adopt. Davis has served nearly half of a 14-year sentence for assault with a deadly weapon.

DAVIS: In the beginning they're wild, of course you can't even touch them and then 90 days later they're like this.

BROWN: Inmates who want to train horses must be model prisoners. They must be eligible for parole within five years. Davis hopes to win release at a hearing in January.

DAVIS: They're all bunched up then they'll get kind of uncomfortable. You build a bond with your horses too because they're locked up in a way just like we are I mean because they stand in a pen all day so you realize that they want to come out of their pen to work just like we don't want to be in a cell all day.

BROWN: That's a key complaint of animal rights activists and some environmentalists. These are wild animals and adoption may not be a good long term plan for managing them or the lands where they have roamed free for centuries. The BLM defends the program.

ACKLEY: Other than some experimental fertility control that we're doing right now the only way we have to control the numbers is by adopting them. There is one other option but, of course, a lot of people aren't in favor of that and that's letting nature take its course, let animals die of thirst and starvation.

BROWN: That option would be inconceivable to the folks from a shelter for abused and homeless children who have come here to adopt their seventh horse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys get to choose but you know I think they'd love to have the gray and he looks like he's in good...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd love to have the gray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe we can keep him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going to a new home boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I hope you enjoy him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, he'll be great.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Horses and prisoners, morning papers and a NEWSNIGHT exclusive after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okey-dokey (ph) time to check morning papers from around the country, a couple of new ones to throw into the mix and we're pleased to have "The Philadelphia Inquirer" with us from (AUDIO GAP) Street there. We told you about that story.

What we didn't get into and it would have been a heck of a story had we, "Day of Chaos caps a tense campaign" a lot of little and maybe not so little acts of intimidation and violence in polling places so the two sides squared off a little bit too literally in Philadelphia where they play hardball politics.

The "Chattanooga Times Free Press" a couple of stories to note. This will appear on a lot of front pages tomorrow I believe. "More U.S. troops call-ups likely for Iraq." Turkey says it will not send peacekeeping troops without significant change in the situation, like peace I guess.

Also a story, was it in this paper, yes down here. "New treatment works like liquid Drano for the arteries." This is going to get a lot of play tomorrow. It's a very brief test on literally putting good cholesterol into your system to help drive bad cholesterol out and the early returns look good there.

"The Dallas Morning News," "No Teflon here as outcry rises. CBS drops "Reagans." That will make it on many front pages. Also, "bill signing to bring abortion to the forefront," the president expected to sign the bill tomorrow that bans the procedure opponents of abortion refer to as partial birth abortion.

Now, quickly or not so quickly, it took me a minute to find it. Here is the NEWSNIGHT exclusive. Your first ever and, in fact, the world's first ever look at the newly remade "Chicago Sun-Times" front page. Can you tell it's different? I can, but over here the weather, which they've moved, tomorrow is Popsicle. "City to overhaul high rise fire codes" is their lead, kind of a cool picture on the front. Nicely done, guys, that's a well done remake of the front page of the paper.

We'll wrap it up for the night after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we leave you for the night, a quick update on our top story which continues to be Iraq. Spain said today it is withdrawing many of its diplomats in the wake of the mortar attack inside the so-called Green Zone, the spokesman calling the situation in his words a somewhat complicated moment. I guess so. Three people wounded in that attack, unclear whether they were soldiers or civilians.

In a separate incident a soldier was killed by a roadside bomb. We'll no doubt have more on Iraq on the program tomorrow night. Also tomorrow, an amazing world hidden beneath the Arizona desert, we'll take you to a place once known as Xanadu. This is so cool. That's on the program tomorrow.

Coming up next, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for our viewers here, overseas viewers see "WORLD NEWS." We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Cope With Loss of Loved Ones in Iraq>


Aired November 4, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again to you.
We saw today in the "Washington Post" a most disturbing quote. It was spoken by a lieutenant stationed near Fallujah, that nasty of all places these days in Iraq. Being stationed there, no doubt, affects his view.

When asked if they were getting things under control he said this: "It seems like every enemy we get there's another one to take his place." He added: "I don't know whether that's true or not, that's above me, but that's the way it seems."

In our nightly effort to report this story to understand it fairly those are chilling words from a part of the country where success for Americans remains elusive.

Iraq again leads the program and leads the whip. We start in Baghdad, CNN's Jane Arraf with the duty, Jane a headline from you.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, for the second night in a row a barrage of rockets hit central Baghdad this one breaching the security of the coalition's so-called secure zone.

BROWN: Jane, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

The White House next, our Senior White House Correspondent John King, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, at one point today the president said he was sure that Saddam Hussein was trying to stir up trouble in Iraq. Seconds later, Mr. Bush said, look, I don't know what he's doing but he did insist this, in the president's words, "years from now the world will look back and say thank goodness America stayed the course" -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

And finally here to Boston where those who want the president's job gathered tonight, eight of them did at least, a very lively session. CNN's Candy Crowley is there for us, Candy a headline.

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Wesley Clark doesn't like the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba. Joe Lieberman has never smoked marijuana and Al Sharpton would most like to party with John Kerry's wife. And, oh yes, there was that little matter of the confederate flag. They were right, Aaron, this was not your father's debate.

BROWN: Candy, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also tonight we'll talk with William Bennett to get his opinions on what the Bush administration needs to do now in Iraq.

Later, the uproar over the Ronald Reagan miniseries, what's this all about? Why did CBS decide to pull the plug?

And in Segment 7 tonight four-legged inmates being cared for by two legged ones the prisoners and the ponies.

And then our favorite animal, the rooster of course will be here to herald the arrival of our morning papers with an exclusive for NEWSNIGHT, all of that and more in the hour ahead.

A very full night, one that begins in the Green Zone that portion of Baghdad along the Tigris River made into an enclave by the U.S. Army and targeted overnight by the bad guys. No one died but people were hurt and another message was loudly sent.

We begin with CNN's Jane Arraf.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): For the coalition, the attacks are hitting closer to home, what appeared to be rockets launched into the coalition security zone. Inside the barricades that house the former palace now the coalition headquarters, as well as a hotel and convention center, three explosions and four people wounded the coalition said. It said none of the blasts took place within the palace itself.

Security experts said from the sound they were rockets fired from not far away. Across the street, residents told us the buildings shook.

"It was a loud noise as if it were a bomb exploding" said Mahmud Falad (ph). "The noise was like a whistle. Next we saw smoke from behind this building over there."

After the initial scare, people carried on with their shopping. The attack, the second in two nights on the coalition's so-called Green Zone, followed two assassinations of senior judges beyond Baghdad.

In the northern city of Mosul the deputy of the Provincial Appeals Court, Ismail Yussef Saddek, was gunned down. In the south in the holy city of Najaf, the judge who had founded a committee to investigate crimes by the former regime was kidnapped and shot dead.

And in the midst of the precarious security in Baghdad, coalition member Spain announced it was pulling out some of its civilian experts for consultations. It said the two diplomats at the embassy would remain. "It's a complicated moment in Iraq now," the foreign minister was quoted as saying.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: It's amazing how quickly things become normal here. In that street across from the palace, across from the coalition headquarters, not a great neighborhood to be living in these days, people we talked to there said they really thought they were going to die. The explosions were that close but a few minutes later they were out in the streets just going shopping, eating dinner and they said what can you do? You have to live with this -- Aaron.

BROWN: And is that what it's like these days in the sense that people accept that they just have to live with the danger and the uncertainty and the rest?

ARRAF: Iraqis are really good at living with danger and uncertainty. They've done it for a long, long time through three wars and all sorts of other things going on. Now this again is a new kind of danger. That one they could sort of predict. This one is unpredictable.

It comes from everywhere in all sorts of forms but it's developing a sort of permanence here and that's what worries people. But, at the same time, that's what allows them to get on with a little bit of a semblance of normal life it seems -- Aaron.

BROWN: I'm sorry, and just quickly, who do they blame for this? Do they blame the Americans for this violence or do they blame the people who are perpetrating it?

ARRAF: It depends where they think it's coming from. For the homegrown violence, and that's who they believe is behind the attacks likely on the U.S. and coalition targets, they blame the Americans for being there to a large extent.

For the other things, the suicide bombs that kill Iraqis no one really wants to believe that those are Iraqis behind it. They blame these foreign fighters and the borders being opened. But, then again, they blame that on the United States as well for leaving those borders open. It's kind of hard to win here -- Aaron.

BROWN: It seems like it, Jane. Thank you very much, Jane Arraf in Baghdad.

There is only the barest of comfort to be had in reporting that 15 and not 16 soldiers died when their helicopter was shot down on Sunday near Fallujah. The Pentagon provided that clarification today. It also identified the remaining five who died.

But given that the number of 20 others were hurt and some of them are in very rough shape that number may yet rise again, 15, 16 or 26, the hard work of grieving in fact is done one soldier and one family at a time and is being done so that way tonight.

Here's CNN's Ed Lavandera.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN DALLAS BUREAU CHIEF: Through the tears they muster the strength to honor their loved ones. From Fort Carson, Colorado, the wife of Staff Sergeant Daniel Bader:

TIFFANY BADER, WIFE OF SGT. DANIEL BADER: I just want the world to know that my husband was a great man.

LAVANDERA: From Oklahoma, the stepmother of Sergeant Ross Pennanen.

LINDA PENNANEN, ROSS PENNANEN'S STEPMOTHER: Oh, he was a great father.

LAVANDERA: And in Fort Wayne, Indiana, a grandmother must explain to the son of Specialist Brian Penisten why daddy won't be able to keep this promise.

MONA PENISTEN, MOTHER OF SPC. BRIAN PENISTEN: He had sent him a note and he said: "I hope you're having a good day son. I'll be home to see you. Next year I'll be home for your birthday and every day. What do you think of that, every day, Love, Daddy."

LAVANDERA: The pain these families feel is perhaps heightened by the thought that most of them were so close to being home even if it was just for a short vacation.

ROSE WILSON, GRANDMOTHER OF STAFF SGT. JOE WILSON: And you wouldn't think that he would leave you trying to come home and that's the part that hurts so bad is the way he went.

BADER: I'm angry at how it happened. I feel that we are over there for a reason.

LAVANDERA: Reasons and answers are hard for Donald Bucklew to come by. He's been coping with the sudden death of his wife. His son, Sergeant Ernest Bucklew was supposed to be by his side when they buried her.

DONALD BUCKLEW, FATHER OF SGT. ERNEST BUCKLEW: Pretty much complete numbness. It was totally unbelievable that this could happen because I know that he was having a hard time.

For the short time he was on the helicopter he was having an extremely hard time, you know, realizing why he'd be coming home because he loves his mother very much and he made a real effort every chance the communications would allow to call us.

And my thoughts more so were, you know, were worrying about him and what he was going through traveling, you know, to try to get home and then the phone call Sunday night just -- it was pretty much complete numbness. I mean your mind races and you think of a thousand things.

LAVANDERA: Well, all those things weigh heavily on these families. Most of them have asked that the rest of the country remember just one thing that even though the war might be over soldiers still sacrifice their lives.

Ed Lavandera, CNN, Dallas.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Even in the best of times a president rarely has the luxury of dealing with one crisis at a time so today President Bush was dealing with two. He viewed the devastation in Southern California and he spoke out once again on the death and destruction in Iraq.

Here's our Senior White House Correspondent John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The day's goal was to take a firsthand look at the devastation and to promise the federal government will do all it can to help victims of California's wildfires.

There was a greeting from the governor and the governor-elect, a show of post recall solidarity in the face of a crisis that left more than 20 dead and more than 3,500 homes destroyed.

But as Mr. Bush stepped from the rubble of what days ago was a residential development he was asked about the latest explosions in Baghdad and whether he thinks Saddam Hussein is directing the attacks.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't know. Look, I can't tell you what he's doing. All I can tell you is he's not running Iraq and all I can tell you as well there's a lot -- some people who are upset by the fact that he's no longer in power.

KING: This was the first opportunity to question the president about Sunday's missile strike on an Army Chinook helicopter, at least 15 soldiers killed in the deadliest day in Iraq since Mr. Bush declared major combat over six months ago.

BUSH: They were making America more secure and I want to thank their families for the ultimate sacrifice.

KING: It was hardly the first time turmoil in Iraq overshadowed a carefully planned presidential visit and another new poll underscored the president's political challenge.

Only 48 percent of those surveyed in a national (unintelligible) college poll last week approved of how the president is handling the situation in Iraq, down from 76 percent back in April. Mr. Bush predicts opinions will change in time.

BUSH: Years from now people will sit back and say thank goodness America stayed the course and did what was necessary to win this battle in the war on terror.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: You heard the president there say years, plural, from now. Of course it is just one year, exactly one year now, until the voters decide whether Mr. Bush deserves a second term. Here at the White House they now realize very much so that improving the security situation in Iraq is not only an immediate policy concern for this White House but a very pressing political concern as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: I'm just trying to understand how the White House was shaping the message today what the president is saying, what he's not saying. I didn't hear him speak, and you'll correct me I know, he didn't speak specifically about the attack, the implications of the attack. He talked about the soldiers.

KING: He didn't speak about the implications of the attack and he does not want to and many have criticized this White House, reporters included, trying to question the press secretary about why we hadn't heard from the president directly about the most deadly day, the downing of that Chinook helicopter.

So, the White House realized the president needed to take some questions today. The goal with the president, who is the administration's chief messenger of course, is to try to talk big picture and to try to make the case that things are getting better and that any tactical adjustments will be made.

But it's an awkward situation for this president, as you noted, trying to deal with the fires on this day. He is also trying to deal with the economy as well but they realize here at the White House and the poll numbers only reinforce it that the American people are beginning to turn a corner when it comes to trusting this president on post-war in Iraq. They are trying to re-turn that corner if you will and the president has to take the lead. They know that.

BROWN: John, thank you very much, John King at the White House tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll talk with Bill Bennett about what the president's policy in Iraq is, what he should be saying or not saying.

We'll also look at the Dover dilemma why the public can't see the bodies of servicemen who die in action when they come home.

And later, was it art or politics? What's behind CBS' cancellation of the Ronald Reagan miniseries, lots to do tonight?

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We're pleased to have William Bennett with us tonight. Bill Bennett, the former cabinet member, a frequent author of a library of titles it seems, including "Why we Fight: Moral Clarity in the war on Terrorism." Mr. Bennett joins us tonight from Washington, D.C. It's nice to see you, sir.

WILLIAM BENNETT, WASHINGTON FELLOW, THE CLAREMONT INSTITUTE: Thank you. BROWN: It is said that when Americans understand the mission and accept the premise of the mission they will, we will, endure the casualties.

BENNETT: Right.

BROWN: Do you believe that we as a country understand the mission and accept the premise of the mission in Iraq these days?

BENNETT: I think most do but I think some clarification and emphasis is in order and it's in order daily and on a regular basis. I'm thinking -- I was watching the Democrat debate earlier tonight and I was thinking of that line from William Butler Yates who says:

"The best lack all conviction. The worst are full of passion and intensity."

I don't want to say the Democratic group was the worst. They're not my cup of tea but that aside there's a lot of passion and intensity on that side and there needs to be, I think, as much passion and intensity in the defense of this war.

I think the president needs to have the intensity that his critics have and I think more people need to show that and speak with the kind of conviction about this effort. I believe this is one of the greatest things this country has done. I think this is one of our finest hours and I don't think we should hesitate to talk about it in those terms.

BROWN: Is the problem, do you think, that the president hasn't defended the war, the administration or supporters of the war haven't defended it with as much passion as they should or as aggressively as they should or that in the day-to-day, the post-war planning does not look as good as the war planning itself?

BENNETT: Well, it may have something to do with the news cycle, you know, and PR people and news people tend to think about the news cycle and about what are we going to do today? What are we going to do, you know, this afternoon, this evening and tomorrow?

But I think there needs to be a larger perspective on this which is to explain to the American people why these soldiers died, why they did not die in vain, that this was one of the most brutal dictatorships we have seen, a dictatorship with hostile intent toward us and toward others, that the kinds of things that have been going on in Iraq are inevitable given the situation that was there before.

A super power like the United States, yes, can defeat the army of Iraq pretty easily but now comes the very hard part and I think again the president needs to say, you know, not every day is going to show progress on every front. There are going to be some terrible days.

There are going to be some bloody days but this is already a far better country than it was before and indeed better than many of its neighboring countries because of the U.S. effort. Remind people of what it is we were fighting for, which is the same ideals that this country has always had and remind people of the response of most of the Iraqi people to our presence.

BROWN: Do you worry at all that with the political pressures of an election a year away that the administration will move too quickly to, I guess the term is the Iraqification of the country, training Iraqi military police, et cetera, letting them run the show and in a sense getting out before the job is done?

BENNETT: Yes, that is a worry. I think it's a worry not only because of the election cycle but because we live in what someone has called the instant culture, you know, everything has to be done and done quickly.

I noticed Kofi Annan's comments over the last few months saying let's get this thing done. Let's turn it over to the Iraqis. I didn't hear that when it came to the Balkans. These things take time. It took time in Germany. It took time in Japan. It will take time in Iraq.

But, again, these are things the president and his men and his people can explain to us and explain, you know, that these things are not built and accomplished in a day.

And, while we are in the process we will, of course, be attacked by now not just the dead-enders from Saddam but those who have predicted that we would run, that we would flee, and this is a very important thing.

If we remember what Osama bin Laden said before and after 9/11, he said we're paper tigers and when the going gets tough we will run. We will flee. We cannot prove him true.

BROWN: Mr. Bennett, it's really nice to have you on the program. I hope you'll come back soon.

BENNETT: Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you, Bill Bennett from Washington tonight.

There are, where Iraq is concerned, no shortage of things to debate and we just tossed around a couple of them. This one is among the most unpleasant. You've never seen a single one of the hundreds of Americans killed in combat arrive home.

You've not seen a casket carried off a plane, the honor guard, the sorrow. Such scenes used to be shown all the time, routine to use a perfectly horrible word but no more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Here more than anywhere else is the final reality of war, the slow and ceremonial march that brings the fallen sons and now daughters too home to grieving families. And this is where it occurs, the immense Air Force base at Dover, Delaware, the only military mortuary in the Continental United States.

For many years it was a public event for fighters lost in Beirut or Panama, the Persian Gulf, for a cabinet member lost in a plane crash, for shuttle astronauts who fell to the earth in flames but not this time, not this war. We can't show it to you. The Pentagon will not allow it.

When President Clinton sent the military into Haiti and the Balkans there was discussion of something called the Dover test, the idea that seeing too many coffins will turn public opinion against the war. Now, opponents of the Bush administration are claiming that this closure at Dover is aimed at eliminating just such images.

SEN. HILLARY CLINTON (D), NEW YORK: We have to recognize that we are engaged in a very difficult conflict. That is certainly not lost on the men and women stationed in Iraq or on their families who are worrying about their well being and it should not lead to trying to avoid the site of caskets coming home.

BROWN: The Defense Department insists it intends no censorship that this is simply the enforcement of a policy of privacy and respect a decade old.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: There is no attempt to hide anything. It's a normal procedure.

BROWN: It is true that pictures have been banned since just before the first Gulf War. Christopher Simpson, who teaches courses on communications and propaganda at American University, thinks it's more than business as usual.

CHRISTOPHER SIMPSON, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: I think it's fair to say that this administration and this war is by far the most sophisticated and by far the most aggressive, for lack of a better word, in crafting images of combat, of war in general to suit its purposes.

BROWN: Are we losing the facts we need to make informed decisions or have we lost something else, an intangible contact with those we've sent to sacrifice for all of us, a ceremonial farewell and a recognition of our collective responsibility?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A debate far from settled.

Coming up on the program politics and the generation gap, how did the Democrat candidates for president do when they faced young voters? Candy Crowley joins us with a "ROCK THE VOTE" report after the break.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: November, Tuesday, Election Day, votes being counted tonight in a number of places around the country. Kentucky is headed for a Republican governor for the first time in 32 years. Republican Ernie Fletcher beat the Democratic Attorney General Ben Chandler there. And in a very closely watched race, John Street, the mayor of Philadelphia, who may or may not be in the middle of a federal investigation but certainly is at the center of a controversy, the mayor there has handily been reelected according to the Associated Press.

CNN's Jason Carroll is at Street headquarters in Philadelphia and Jason joins us now. Good evening.

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And good evening to you, Aaron. There is a lot of celebrating going on in this room tonight, as you said, the Associated Press just before ten o'clock declaring John Street the winner. More than two-thirds of the returns are now in. It's John Street, 59 percent, Republican challenger Sam Katz 41 percent.

And political watchers here in this town will tell you, as strange as it sounds, that a FBI bug changed everything in the way that this campaign was run. Basically, it was around October 7th, as you may remember, that it was learned that the FBI had planted a bug in the mayor's office, a listening device as part of some sort of a federal investigation into possible political corruption.

And after that, Aaron, that really galvanized, that really energized his support base. That's really what got the people out, got the voters out. We have yet to hear at this point from Sam Katz or from Mayor Street but, as I said before, a lot of celebrating going on in this room tonight -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jason, thank you very much, Jason Carroll in Philadelphia.

This Election Day, the battle was also being fought for the Democratic spot on next year's presidential ballot. Eight candidates met in a debate held by CNN and "ROCK THE VOTE" in Boston, a very lively affair.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY (voice-over): No apologies for saying he also wants to be the candidate of guys with confederate flags on their pickups but Howard Dean said he was happy to explain.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Martin Luther King said that it was his dream that the sons of slave holders and the sons of slaves sit down around a table and make common good.

CROWLEY: It was like somebody lit a match to kerosene.

AL SHARPTON (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: First of all, Martin Luther King said "come to the table of brotherhood." You can't bring a confederate flag to the table of brotherhood.

CROWLEY: While Al Sharpton took on Dean from the perspective of an African American, North Carolina's John Edwards criticized the Vermont governor for being condescending to White southerners.

JOHN EDWARDS (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because let me tell you the last thing we need in the south is somebody like you coming down and telling us what we need to do. That's the last thing in the world we need in the south.

DEAN: I'm not going to take a backseat to anybody in terms of fighting bigotry.

CROWLEY: Explanations aside there is no way around the central truth having to explain your position on the confederate flag is never a debate plus. Say this for a young audience, 30 and under, they seem to energize a field grown tired of these 90-minute jousts for air time. The event ranged from serious to funny to offbeat.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're the manager of the Boston Red Sox.

CROWLEY: Weirdest moment John Kerry's explanation of why he hunts.

JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, it's a tough economy now and it's amazing what you have to go to to put food on the table. I mean, no look, I've been a hunter all my life but I make a point of eating what I kill.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CROWLEY: Weirdest question who would you most like to party with. For the record, Al Sharpton said John Kerry's wife -- Aaron.

BROWN: Candy, thank you very much. It was a very successful night up there. It was fun to watch. It was good television. Thank you.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, the miniseries with major problems, why did CBS cancel the Ronald Reagan miniseries and why is there such an uproar about it all?

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the uproar over the Ronald Reagan miniseries and more. We're right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Biography, a long forgotten author once said, is a very definite region bounded on the north by history, on the south by fiction, on the east by obituary and on the west by tedium. Somewhere along the road, critics say, the producers of a miniseries on Ronald and Nancy Reagan lost their bearings.

CBS was supposed to air it two weeks from now in the middle of the big November sweeps with the expectation that it would be a ratings blockbuster. Instead, the network wound up with a political stink bomb and today decided to unload it.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Now, 92 and ailing, Ronald Reagan is the patron saint of the conservative Republican movement and conservatives moved aggressively to protect his and Mrs. Reagan's image when details of the script started leaking late last month. From "The New York Times" to Matt Drudge's Web site, snippets of the script suggested to Republicans at least something less than a flattering portrayal.

ED GILLESPIE, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: My concern is people are going to watch that and they're going to come away thinking well that's what Ronald Reagan was like.

BROWN: In one scene, the former president is said to have taken an especially callus position on funding for AIDS. In the script he says: "They that live in sin shall die in sin."

In many scenes, Mrs. Reagan was said to be the controlling force in the White House, protecting her husband, relying on an astrologer to set his schedule and more. Even the choice of James Brolin, the husband of Barbra Streisand, to play Mr. Reagan was seen as proof of the bias in the program.

CBS came under enormous pressure. Members of Congress complained. Conservative Web sites launched advertiser boycotts and today CBS gave up on the project saying it would sell it to pay-per- view Showtime owned by its parent company as well.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: It sounds to me like they were intimidated in making decisions that reversed earlier ones and I'm disappointed. I think anytime occasions arise when the essence of the judgment made by television producers is influenced by outside forces we have to call into question whether that level of intimidation is appropriate.

BROWN: CBS issued a short written statement today saying: "This decision is based solely on our reaction to seeing the final film, not the controversy that erupted around a draft of the script."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's what CBS said today that the controversy, the threats of boycott and the rest had nothing to do with the decision. This probably would not be a story if it were not for the work of Jim Ruttenberg who writes on television for "The New York Times" and obtained the first snippets of the script. Mr. Ruttenberg joins us from Washington tonight, nice to see you.

JIM RUTTENBERG, REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Good to see you.

BROWN: When did you get the sense that CBS started to realize it had a problem?

RUTTENBERG: Probably a few days after our story first ran because when the story did first run they seemed OK. It seemed like there was some controversy but I don't think they were expecting anywhere near the controversy that they ended up getting.

BROWN: Just, I'm curious did you expect the controversy they ended up getting?

RUTTENBERG: To a degree but not to the extent that it ended up being.

BROWN: I mean it ended up in that kind of giant world of Internet, talk radio and the rest and for the last couple of weeks has been fodder.

RUTTENBERG: Right. Unbelievable, it just built and built and built and fed upon itself to the point where here we are. I can't believe that they are going to cancel it. I really didn't think that was going to happen.

BROWN: You did not?

RUTTENBERG: No, no.

BROWN: At what point did you begin to think that they might then?

RUTTENBERG: You know I guess when I stopped hearing from executives and people involved with the production. When it got very quiet I started getting the gist that something was going down, the film was going down.

BROWN: Yes, it sure did. Was that yesterday, two days ago, you know when in this timeline did you start to get, those are clear signs to a reporter, when they stop returning your calls you know that there's trouble, several days ago?

RUTTENBERG: Yes, I guess it was a few days ago, probably late last week I started really getting suspicious.

BROWN: Is it your feeling that CBS, the executives of CBS, the people that run the joint as opposed to the people who produced the miniseries, were blindsided by the content?

RUTTENBERG: I can't see how that could be because they knew that at least one major publication was going to be writing about the film. They were starting to promote it. I don't see how they could be blindsided by the content. Maybe they hadn't looked as carefully or as closely as they should have but they had to know the gist of the script. I mean I was speaking to them days before my story ran.

BROWN: But prior to the point the story ran when they approved the project and went ahead with the project you believe they knew the details of the script at that point?

RUTTENBERG: I think perhaps the very top level of CBS did not know all the details in the script.

BROWN: Well they presumably know them now. Do you believe what they said that the controversy had nothing to do with the decision to yank it?

RUTTENBERG: I don't know. I have to withhold any judgment. That's what they say. They say that they looked at the script. They came to a new conclusion. I'm sorry, they looked at the final film. They came to a new conclusion. It had nothing to do with the pressure. That's what they say. That's what I as a reporter have to report so I'll let others make the judgment.

BROWN: You're a very disciplined reporter. We appreciate that. Jim, thank you very much.

RUTTENBERG: Thanks.

BROWN: Jim Ruttenberg who reported the story first for "The New York Times." This has, needless to say, become political red meat for those who would shout bias and those who would scream censorship.

Given our druthers, the less screaming and shouting on this program the better for us and we're certain to get some help. We really believe that on that score from Josh Marshall, the blogger behind Talkingpointsmemo.com. He joins us from Washington.

And here in New York, Rich Lowry, the editor of the "National Review" and the author of "Legacy: Paying the Price for the Clinton Years," good to see you both.

Rich, let me start with you but the same question to both. What is this about?

RICH LOWRY, AUTHOR, "LEGACY: PAYING THE PRICE FOR THE CLINTON YEARS": Well, it's about a false and defamatory betrayal of Ronald Reagan. You know, a miniseries doesn't have to be totally accurate.

That's a ridiculous standard. But when you're putting words into Reagan's mouth that he would never say and very likely never think in terms he would never speak, you know, people with AIDS deserve to die.

BROWN: Right.

LOWRY: That crosses a line.

BROWN: So, it is only about authenticity. There's no -- there's nothing else here?

LOWRY: Well, I mean there's an element of politics. Of course, conservatives are more upset about this than anyone else but I think it had a broader resonance which is why CBS had to back down. There's a certain fondness that people hold Reagan in for his presidency and also given his condition now.

BROWN: OK, Josh what do you think this was about?

JOSHUA MICAH MARSHALL, TALKING POINTS MEMO.COM: In all due respect, I think what Rich just said was ridiculous.

BROWN: With all due respect.

MARSHALL: Exactly, with all due respect as always. Look this is clearly people like Rich and others who are critics of this miniseries really this isn't about that it's biased or unfair or anything like that because they can't know because they haven't seen it.

So, this is really all about their not wanting there to be really anything negative said about Ronald Reagan and for people who are great admirers of his I can understand that, I guess.

But -- so the problem here is not so much that Rich and his friends basically whined and made a whole hullabaloo about this. The problem is the cowardice of the executives at CBS.

I mean the idea that this had nothing to do with the pressure exerted by Republicans and conservatives is ridiculous and I understand how a reporter for "The New York Times" who has to cover this can't venture an opinion but I'll venture an opinion.

There's no way that's true so, you know, look I think this is about partisanship. This is about conservatives are very organized with the way they go after this and in a sense I don't even fault them. The problem is that CBS was so gutless and gave into this.

LOWRY: Well, can I make two points about that?

BROWN: Please.

LOWRY: First of all...

BROWN: With all due respect.

LOWRY: Yes, with all, of course, with all due respect parts of the script were leaked to people so we saw a reporting about...

MARSHALL: Which part do you see a problem with, Rich?

LOWRY: Well, Reagan saying he's an Antichrist. Reagan saying that he's glad...

MARSHALL: Wait, do you think...

LOWRY: Josh, let me just -- can I just finish. Just let me make...

MARSHALL: Do you think he said that, that he's an Antichrist?

BROWN: Josh, let him make a point.

LOWRY: Let me make a point.

BROWN: Let him make it.

LOWRY: So, the script was reported on. There was also trailers that were floating around out there and the fact is this is a tactic that the left has embraced for years. Boycotts are great things, right? Now, when the right does it we have the left screaming censorship and this isn't censorship at all.

Networks decide what to run and what not to run all the time and people who desperately want to see this probably cheesy and very inaccurate miniseries can tune in to Showtime. Invite people to your house, Josh. Have a party over it, you know. Take shots every time Reagan says something hateful or vicious.

MARSHALL: You know, Rich, I have no desire to see this because I take it as a given that every docudrama is cheesy and not really worth anybody watching.

LOWRY: Well, we can agree about that.

MARSHALL: But, look, the idea that in this documentary Reagan says in some serious vein that he's the Antichrist I really doubt that's the context, and the point about the statement about AIDS, who knows if he ever said that but his official biographer in his biography of Reagan says that he said something very similar to that. So, this is hardly something utterly bizarre.

LOWRY: Well...

MARSHALL: I mean look that was 20 years ago. Just let me finish now.

LOWRY: Sure.

MARSHALL: This is someone who obviously lived much of his life early in this century so it's not a matter of, you know, beating up on him for something like that but this isn't defamatory. Listen, a) you can't know since you haven't seen it but I haven't frankly seen anything that says this is really anything more than critical and, as far as I know, we can still be critical of Ronald Reagan in this country.

BROWN: Well, let -- Rich, let me ask you a question.

LOWRY: Sure, yes.

BROWN: You've literally written a book on President Clinton. Do you think if this were about President Clinton, if there were stretches in a docudrama about President Clinton you would see this hue and cry from the left and that a network would capitulate? Do you believe that?

LOWRY: Well, first of all, I don't think Hollywood would produce as critical a portrayal of Bill Clinton. Now, if there is a betrayal of Bill Clinton that say had him after the Black Hawk down incident in Somalia saying, gosh you know deep down I hate the military. I'm glad those guys died. That would be outrageous and you would see screaming from the left and if a network like CBS looked at it and decided it was indefensible, yes, it would be pulled.

And, one last point on Josh's points. CBS has seen this thing and they told us today that it's biased and they can't defend it and they don't want to run it and when CBS says something like that I believe them.

BROWN: And on that note, Josh I wish we could.

MARSHALL: They can't say anything else because otherwise they'd have to admit they're cowards.

BROWN: That's a fair way to end it, nice to have you with us. Nice to see you again Rich, thank you very much.

LOWRY: Thanks, Aaron.

BROWN: Good to have you both.

MARSHALL: Thank you.

BROWN: We'll take a break. When we come back, Segment 7 and a wild horse is part of a prison program to help inmates learn jobs and responsibility, a change of pace but that's what NEWSNIGHT is. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: You can argue forever about what prisons ought to do, whether their mission should be rehabilitation or punishment or simply keeping bad people off the streets.

Wherever you stand though there's no disputing this. Sooner or later the vast majority of inmates get out, many of them better criminals, a few better cowboys.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): While most minimum security prisoners count off each day like this or like this, fantasizing about life on the outside, every morning James Matthew Davis and several dozen fellow inmates here become cowboys of a kind.

JAMES MATTHEW DAVIS, INMATE: Before I came in this program I had no working knowledge whatsoever of horses so now, I mean, when I got out if I wanted to go train horses for people that's a pretty good job skill to have and I've learned I can vaccinate horses, give shots, learn how to shoe horses out here.

BROWN: His home on the range, 65 acres within the 5,500 acre state prison complex in Canyon City, Colorado.

FRANCIS ACKLEY, BUREAU OF LAND MANAGEMENT: The wild horse inmate program started here in Canyon City in 1986 and it was basically just some guys from the BLM office in town got together with some guys from the prison and said, hey, you know you have labor. We have horses.

BROWN: In a program that not everyone agrees makes sense the U.S. Bureau of Land Management rounds up mustangs in nine western states where it says the animals are over populated in their natural habitats. In Canyon City and other western prisons with similar programs inmates learn to care for nearly 800 horses and burrows at a time, training them as pets or work animals for people to someday adopt. Davis has served nearly half of a 14-year sentence for assault with a deadly weapon.

DAVIS: In the beginning they're wild, of course you can't even touch them and then 90 days later they're like this.

BROWN: Inmates who want to train horses must be model prisoners. They must be eligible for parole within five years. Davis hopes to win release at a hearing in January.

DAVIS: They're all bunched up then they'll get kind of uncomfortable. You build a bond with your horses too because they're locked up in a way just like we are I mean because they stand in a pen all day so you realize that they want to come out of their pen to work just like we don't want to be in a cell all day.

BROWN: That's a key complaint of animal rights activists and some environmentalists. These are wild animals and adoption may not be a good long term plan for managing them or the lands where they have roamed free for centuries. The BLM defends the program.

ACKLEY: Other than some experimental fertility control that we're doing right now the only way we have to control the numbers is by adopting them. There is one other option but, of course, a lot of people aren't in favor of that and that's letting nature take its course, let animals die of thirst and starvation.

BROWN: That option would be inconceivable to the folks from a shelter for abused and homeless children who have come here to adopt their seventh horse.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys get to choose but you know I think they'd love to have the gray and he looks like he's in good...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd love to have the gray.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe we can keep him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Going to a new home boy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I hope you enjoy him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, he'll be great.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Horses and prisoners, morning papers and a NEWSNIGHT exclusive after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okey-dokey (ph) time to check morning papers from around the country, a couple of new ones to throw into the mix and we're pleased to have "The Philadelphia Inquirer" with us from (AUDIO GAP) Street there. We told you about that story.

What we didn't get into and it would have been a heck of a story had we, "Day of Chaos caps a tense campaign" a lot of little and maybe not so little acts of intimidation and violence in polling places so the two sides squared off a little bit too literally in Philadelphia where they play hardball politics.

The "Chattanooga Times Free Press" a couple of stories to note. This will appear on a lot of front pages tomorrow I believe. "More U.S. troops call-ups likely for Iraq." Turkey says it will not send peacekeeping troops without significant change in the situation, like peace I guess.

Also a story, was it in this paper, yes down here. "New treatment works like liquid Drano for the arteries." This is going to get a lot of play tomorrow. It's a very brief test on literally putting good cholesterol into your system to help drive bad cholesterol out and the early returns look good there.

"The Dallas Morning News," "No Teflon here as outcry rises. CBS drops "Reagans." That will make it on many front pages. Also, "bill signing to bring abortion to the forefront," the president expected to sign the bill tomorrow that bans the procedure opponents of abortion refer to as partial birth abortion.

Now, quickly or not so quickly, it took me a minute to find it. Here is the NEWSNIGHT exclusive. Your first ever and, in fact, the world's first ever look at the newly remade "Chicago Sun-Times" front page. Can you tell it's different? I can, but over here the weather, which they've moved, tomorrow is Popsicle. "City to overhaul high rise fire codes" is their lead, kind of a cool picture on the front. Nicely done, guys, that's a well done remake of the front page of the paper.

We'll wrap it up for the night after a short break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we leave you for the night, a quick update on our top story which continues to be Iraq. Spain said today it is withdrawing many of its diplomats in the wake of the mortar attack inside the so-called Green Zone, the spokesman calling the situation in his words a somewhat complicated moment. I guess so. Three people wounded in that attack, unclear whether they were soldiers or civilians.

In a separate incident a soldier was killed by a roadside bomb. We'll no doubt have more on Iraq on the program tomorrow night. Also tomorrow, an amazing world hidden beneath the Arizona desert, we'll take you to a place once known as Xanadu. This is so cool. That's on the program tomorrow.

Coming up next, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for our viewers here, overseas viewers see "WORLD NEWS." We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Good night for all of us.

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