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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Democratic Senator Zell Miller Endorses President Bush; Question Of Due Process Sacrificed For National Security; Promises From Iraq Dangled Before U.S. Just Before War

Aired November 06, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
It is a tantalizing notion with interesting implications, the idea that the Iraqis were willing to make significant concessions to avoid a war. We know now how it turned out of course. If it was an honest attempt to prevent war it failed but was it really?

It's the first question we look at tonight this back channel caper begins the whip. Our National Security Correspondent David Ensor starts us off, David a headline from you tonight.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, we know that Iraqi officials approached a Lebanese-American businessman offering a deal. What we don't know is whether this was what is known in the intelligence business as a dangle, an effort to just have caused confusion and get the United States perhaps to hold back on some action or whether it was the real thing and that's the question.

BROWN: It is indeed. David, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

Next to the Pentagon and the question of who's going next to Iraq and how many are going. Our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre with us tonight, Jamie a headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, 85,000 combat troops, including 43,000 reservists are getting the call but even so the Pentagon's rotation plan puts fewer boots on the ground in Iraq next year, yet the Pentagon argues they'll have more ability to go after insurgents. I'll explain their logic.

BROWN: Thank you Jamie.

And CNN's Ben Wedeman is just back from a patrol in an especially dangerous corner of Iraq, Ben a headline from you tonight.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, well for U.S. troops in Iraq a tour of duty in Fallujah is probably the most dangerous. The local population is not very friendly, often violently so, and roadside bombs, mortar attacks and ambushes are daily occurrences.

BROWN: Ben, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly. Also ahead tonight we'll talk with Georgia Democratic Senator Zell Miller who says he plans to campaign for President Bush next year.

Then the case of MKB arrested after September 11th and shrouded in secrecy. The Supreme Court will decide if the government has gone too far in keeping it from the public.

Then a case that's not secret at all, the very public fight between Rosie O'Donnell and the magazine publisher. Ms. O'Donnell took the witness stand today and we'll have a report on what she said.

And later, of course, we check tomorrow's papers for you and, as always, a performance by your favorite denizen of the barnyard or perhaps ours, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin with a what-if and it is a doozie. What if Saddam Hussein had been willing to do almost anything to avert a war and what if that message was sent? With Americans fighting and dying every day in Iraq the question what if is hardly academic being so uncomfortably close to what might have been so, what if, again CNN's David Ensor?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): Even as American troops were assembling on the borders of Iraq, a well-placed official in the Pentagon got a message from a Lebanese-American businessman. Saddam Hussein wanted to make a.

IMAD EL-HAGE, LEBANESE AMERICAN BUSINESSMAN: I thought it was only right to convey them back to people and it was up to them to decide what they do with this information.

ENSOR: El-Hage says he met in Beirut and in Baghdad with senior Iraqi officials, including this man, Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti head of Iraqi military intelligence who told him Iraq would make major concessions to avoid invasion.

EL-HAGE: The Iraqis would be willing to allow between 1,000 to 2,000 U.S. agents, FBI and/or scientists into Iraq to verify according to them the absence of weapons of mass destruction or that they no longer had weapons of mass destruction. The second point they offered to turn over Yasin Abdul Rahman, a terrorist involved with the World Trade Center bombing in 1994.

ENSOR: El-Hage took the message to an aide to Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and to Richard Pearl, an influential member of a Pentagon advisory group but U.S. intelligence officials say the feeler was just one of many made to potential middlemen, which were checked out by the Central Intelligence Agency and found wanting. On another occasion, they say, Iraqi intelligence told middlemen they would meet Americans in Morocco at a certain place and time. They did not show up.

KENNETH POLLACK, SABAN CENTER AT BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There is no reason to believe that Iraqi intelligence had any intention of delivering on any of the promises that they were dangling in front of the United States. Far more likely what they were trying to do was to derail the U.S. war effort without actually giving up anything.

ENSOR: The White House spokesman declined to say whether President Bush was informed of the message from el-Hage.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There simply was no need for back door contacts. The front door was wide open. If people wanted to communicate with us they knew how to do that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: And administration officials say that really is the point. If the Iraqi regime really had been willing to make the concessions necessary to avoid war they knew who to contact and only a direct high level meeting would have sufficed - Aaron.

BROWN: You said there had been a series of these contacts that had been checked out. Was this one in fact checked out or was it simply rejected?

ENSOR: No, I understand that it was checked out further. I don't know the entire details of in what way it checked out but this was one of a series of contacts that they say were made.

Some seemed to be real, really coming from the Iraqis but at no time were the Iraqis - was a senior Iraqi willing to sit down and actually do a deal with the Americans, which the Americans were offering to do if the Iraqis would do it. There were all these dangles but nothing coming through to the end.

BROWN: David, thank you. We'll have more on this in our next segment. We'll be joined by James Risen whose reporting was a front page story on this in "The New York Times" today and you'll hear more from CNN Analyst Ken Pollack too. That's coming in a little bit.

We first shift gears from the what-ifs to the what is. The president today signed an $87 billion budget bill to fund operations for rebuilding Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Pentagon also announced plans to rotate 85,000 soldiers and Marines into Iraq early next year, among them 43,000 members of the National Guard and Reserves who started receiving notification today. When the current forces rotate out this adds up to fewer men and women on the ground, something critics are leery of but the secretary of defense is not.

Again, here's CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Even as attacks on U.S. forces mount, the Pentagon is planning to send about 25,000 fewer troops to Iraq for the second year of U.S. occupation; however, the Pentagon argues the rotation plan provides a better mix of forces to battle insurgents. DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Numbers do not necessarily equate with capability. We're bringing in forces that are appropriate to deal with the evolving threats in Iraq today, including more mobile infantry elements.

MCINTYRE: Also, among the 85,000 fresh combat troops being alerted are three Army National Guard brigades built around the Army's new more nimble Striker combat vehicles.

All together some 43,000 guard and reserve troops are getting the call, mostly Army, but Marines, Navy and Air Force units are also being tapped, some heading to Afghanistan. It's a strain on the citizen soldiers but unavoidable insists the Pentagon.

LT. GEN. NORTON SCHWARTZ, JOINT STAFF OPERATIONS DIRECTOR: Ladies and gentlemen, we are at war. This is not peacetime and so under the circumstances we find ourselves we are going to respond to the nation's call.

MCINTYRE: Meanwhile, the Pentagon's estimate of Iraqi security forces jumped by 3,000 in a single day from 115,000 to 118,000 raising eyebrows about whether the numbers are inflated.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: All of the Iraqi security force programs are now up and running and they're paying decent wages, which in turn has led to an increase in successful recruiting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon stresses this troop rotation plan is not inflexible. It's not written in stone and if U.S. commanders believe next year that they need more troops, the Pentagon has said they will get them - Aaron.

BROWN: Was there a projection before the war how many American troops would be in Iraq by the first of next year?

MCINTYRE: Well, it was widely believed in the Pentagon that they thought that they would very quickly be able to get down to about 50,000 or 60,000 troops, although Defense Secretary Rumsfeld was careful never to make that kind of projection.

The Pentagon is still using a somewhat hopeful scenario that the security situation is going to be better and that Iraqi forces will be able to take much of the burden and they admit that if that doesn't happen they have to have a backup plan.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you again, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

Another soldier died in Iraq today. A truck ran over a landmine not far from the border with Syria. The soldier belonged to the 1st Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry and was attached to the 82nd Airborne.

The 82nd has, some would argue, the toughest watch of all these days in Iraq. The division is responsible for, among other places, the city of Fallujah where hardly a day goes by without an attack.

Here's CNN's Ben Wedeman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): This probably isn't the best way to see Fallujah but for the 82nd Airborne Brigade's Bravo Company it seems like the safest. They've come to the mayor's office to guard a meeting between brigade representatives and local religious and tribal leaders.

Captain Ryan Huston is the brigade's liaison with Fallujah's mayor and police. His office has been bombed. He's seen Iraqi policemen and his own men injured in a series of attacks.

APT. RYAN HUSTON, U.S. ARMY: But despite all this our mission stands steadfast and we will not stray from that mission. We will stay here until safety and security is established in Fallujah.

WEDEMAN: Not everyone cared for his message. "Ninety-nine percent of the people want the Americans to leave" contractor Mohammed el-Jumani (ph) told me.

Others want the Americans to stay but to stay out of the city. "The coalition forces should remain on the outskirts of Fallujah to avoid being killed and to avoid killing innocent people" says Sheikh Raffa (ph). After the meeting its clear frustration is mutual.

HUSTON: We're just getting a little tired of the way things are going here and we were just asking for their support.

WEDEMAN: The mayor's office has become the scene for a tense test of wills between U.S. troops and their invisible foes in Fallujah.

(on camera): This compound has become the epicenter for trouble in Fallujah. Rarely does a day go by when it doesn't come under fire.

(voice-over): Just to make their point the Americans swooped down on the mayor's office at night setting up gun positions, waiting for an attack that on this night never happened.

How does it feel to work in a place that looks like it's a magnet for bullets and RPGs?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a magnet. I mean we've been attacked like pretty much every day. I mean just some small or a big attack doesn't matter but I mean it's my job so I just come out here and do it.

WEDEMAN: A job that requires one finger on the trigger and the other on this city's pulse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And, Aaron, we spent actually three days out there in Fallujah going on a variety of daytime and nighttime patrols and it's clear the 82nd is very much having an impact on the local population, not necessarily a positive one. Many of the people out there complaining that they're too intrusive, their methods are too harsh but those methods do seem to be yielding some results.

In recent days they have captured two former generals from the old regime, generals the 82nd believes have been behind some of these attacks on those troops -- Aaron.

BROWN: Ben, thank you very much, three days of good work. Thank you, Ben Wedeman.

The reality of Fallujah and Iraq and war since wars began is a simple one. For whatever else they do and for whatever reasons they are fought wars result in broken machines and shattered bodies and losses to grieve. Two reminders today, a memorial for the victims of the helicopter crash this weekend in Iraq and the echoes of another war in another place 30 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): The facts are simple, as the facts of funerals usually are. In the desert night northwest of Baghdad, the 3rd Armored Cavalry regiment gathered to say its farewells.

A world away it was mourning at Arlington National Cemetery. Some things were different. It was raining there not burned brown. Dress uniforms replaced combat fatigues but the important things, the essential facts, were the same.

In Iraq, 15 icons made of empty boots, rifles and helmets stood in for those who died in the crash of a Chinook helicopter four days ago. In Arlington, more symbols. These caskets hold no bodies only tiny bits of tooth and bone, fragments from another helicopter that fell to earth in another place, another war.

COL. DAVID TEEPLES, COMMANDER, 3RD CAVALRY: Their lives were lived in freedom. Their deaths were in the cause of freedom. They all were volunteers serving our country, answering our nation's call to fight a war against terrorism.

BROWN: Warrant Office Paul Black also answered his country's call. He was commanding a Huey gunship, call sign Jaguar Yellow Bird, when it nose-dived into a Cambodian rice patty that was 30 years ago.

His crewmates' bodies were found. Their families could grieve and go on. Paul Black's family had to wait hoping in vain until enough bits and enough tests sealed their loss.

In Iraq, soldiers came together, wept, and remembered young men and women who now must go on to other battles. Those gathered in Arlington were older today, grayer certainly, but the need to honor the fallen was no different, the need for an end, an answer just as strong.

The facts are much the same tradition and ritual consoling the family, giving fellow soldiers the strength to go back to battle. There was this difference though those were blanks fired over one ceremony, live rounds were in the guns at the other.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll look in greater detail at this back channel effort by Iraq to fend off an American attack if, in fact, that's what it was.

Then the case of MKB, the Supreme Court will decide if the government has been too secretive in cases related to September 11th.

Later, Rosie O'Donnell takes the stand in a case that's anything but secret, her battle with the former publisher of her magazine.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More now on the notion that Saddam Hussein wanted to avert a war and was prepared to give up a great deal to do it. Some of this reads like a novel or a tragically missed opportunity or perhaps no big deal. It depends a lot on who you ask.

We thought we'd ask the reporter whose piece in "The New York Times" got everyone talking today. James Risen joins us, also with us from Washington Ken Pollack, CNN Analyst and Director of Research at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy. It's nice to see you both.

Jim, what make you think it was real and I don't mean that these contacts were actually made, of course, everybody, I think acknowledges that, but that it in fact represented the wishes of the top level of the Iraqi government?

JAMES RISEN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well that's, you know, a little bit of speculation, although I spent a lot of time over the last few weeks with Imad Hage, who is this Lebanese- American businessman in Beirut who was through a very odd series of coincidences kind of swept into this in a way I think that surprised him more than anybody else.

And, I'm convinced that what he got caught up in was real and that it had the sanction of Saddam Hussein. He met personally in Baghdad with the head of Iraqi intelligence and he was making very specific points and proposals that I don't think he would have made, especially in Baghdad, without Saddam Hussein's knowledge if not approval.

BROWN: And, Ken, you feel at least as strongly that this was something less than it appears to be.

POLLACK: Yes, look, first I don't dispute any of Mr. Risen's reporting. I'm perfectly willing to believe that Imad Hage believed that what he had was the genuine offer. I'm even willing to believe, although here I start to get skeptical, but I'm even willing to believe that Saddam was aware of what was being offered. I also have no doubt that it was not a serious deal. In fact, everything that I hear leads me to believe that this was yet another Iraqi intelligence operation like we had seen countless Iraqi intelligence operations in the past. In truth, the Iraqis offered nothing that they hadn't offered before and there was no expectation that they would actually deliver on anything that they actually did offer.

BROWN: Well, but they did. I mean I'm not sure I disagree with you but they did offer, one of the things they offered, as I read it, was thousands, perhaps several thousand American soldiers or FBI agents or scientists or some combination of all of them to come into Iraq and do a weapons search if that's what the Americans wanted.

POLLACK: Well, look, how many times did the Iraqis publicly accept the proposition that they had to allow U.N. inspectors and, of course, the U.N. inspectors were determined solely by the U.N., free and unfettered access to all of Iraq and how many times did they renege on it, every time.

BROWN: Jim, in the reporting of the story do the sources all believe that, because here's the predicate of the question, there's been a lot of reporting since the war that Saddam didn't really believe the Americans had the courage to attack or the willingness to attack so why should we believe now that Saddam was trying to avert this?

RISEN: I think, as Ken said, you know, you can't get into the mind of Saddam Hussein very easily. It's quite possible this was all, that he wasn't really serious about this. All I'm saying in my reporting is that this happened. This channel happened.

I believe that, in fact, I think the reporting I've done since I came back from Beirut has convinced me even more that Imad Hage did, in fact, meet with Tahir Habbush.

Habbush told him that there were other attempts at meetings with the CIA and gave him specifics on other meetings that the CIA and the Iraqi intelligence had attempted to have or had had. CIA and other American officials then confirmed the very same meetings with me that I'd first heard from Hage who had heard it from Habbush.

So, I'm convinced that Habbush met with Hage, that Hage then met with Richard Pearl, that Pearl then talked to the CIA. I'm not trying to say that this was real or that Saddam Hussein was serious. I'm just saying this channel happened.

BROWN: Right and quickly I guess why not just pick up the phone and call the White House or the CIA or the Pentagon? Why this elaborate back channel?

RISEN: Well, I think the one, I mean I'm no expert on the Arab world but I do think that it's quite possible that third world countries and leaders of third world countries don't understand how bureaucratic Washington has become, that they don't understand that informal channels here are viewed in a much more suspect way than they are in many other parts of the world.

And, I think Richard Pearl had obviously become a name that everyone knew around the world and Hage, the reason they contacted Hage was because they found out that he knew Pearl, which was true. He had met him and had a relationship, some relationship with him.

And, I think they wanted to get to Pearl because in part I think they had been dissatisfied with the official contacts. They thought maybe - I think what they thought was maybe that they could get different answers in an informal back channel than they were getting officially.

BROWN: Ken, good to have you with us; Jim, nice piece of reporting in the paper today.

RISEN: Thanks.

BROWN: We appreciate your time tonight. Thanks a lot.

RISEN: Thanks.

POLLACK: Thank you.

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT 9/11 and secrecy and the case of a man apparently cleared of any wrongdoing, at least he thinks he was. The trouble is the case is so secret he can't find out.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are aspects to the new normal that takes some getting used to from going barefoot through airport security to grappling with the daily reports of casualties coming out of Iraq.

We adapt too much but much as we do some things are harder to accept than others, among them the idea that traditional notions of due process have been sacrificed in the name of national security.

A case study now, one that may soon be a case before the Supreme Court, here's CNN's John Zarrella.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): These days you can find Mohamed Kamel Bellahouel helping out at his mother-in- law's deli. Two years ago he could barely help himself.

It was one month after 9/11. Kamel, an Algerian national and his wife Edith, had been married four months when he was detained by the FBI, held at this detention center for five months and then released, no charges filed.

MOHAMED KAMEL BELLAHOUEL, FORMER DETAINEE: What happened was I believe unjust and inhuman and I think there was a lot of discrimination on that. ZARRELLA: In similar detention cases since 9/11, the government has maintained its right to keep any proceedings secret based on national security. After his release, Kamel filed a federal civil suit challenging the secrecy of the case and now the Supreme Court wants to know why the government kept everything about Kamel's case hush-hush. The very existence of the case only became public after records were accidentally posted on the Appeals Court website.

BELLAHOUEL: The public should know what happened. The case should be unsealed. I mean if we live in a democracy.

ZARRELLA: Even Kamel's appeals of lower court decisions have been kept secret.

DAVID RIVKIN, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: The courts must have agreed, or the government, because the way the district court hearing was held clearly would not have happened. It did because the government wanted it to.

ZARRELLA: The Supreme Court justices, of course, see the full text. This is what the public sees, for the most part, blank pages. Kamel is identified only by his initials, MKB. Some constitutional expert say there is a right to know why they are blank.

FLOYD ABRAMS, LEGAL EXPERT: If there's going to be secrecy, there has got to be a reason. It has got to be spelled out. Lawyers have the right to argue it. And the public has a right to know there's something going on which is secret.

ZARRELLA: The government won't comment on the case, but Kamel says he was told he was detained because he had been a waiter at a restaurant frequented by two of the hijackers. And a movie theater employee said she saw him and another of the hijackers together.

(on camera): But we never know if these are real reasons Kamel was held behind bars for five months, because, as far as the government is concerned, he's still known only as MKB and his case is still a secret.

John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Some late news out of Washington tonight that brings a familiar queasy feeling. The Associated Press is reporting that the Postal Service has closed down 11 facilities in and around the District. This is a precaution after a test at a Naval mail facility came back positive for anthrax.

That facility is also shut down tonight while further testing is done. Where the anthrax came from and whether this is something new or simply the residue from two years ago, we can't yet say. A spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security was quick to point out that the test results, while coming back positive, were at a very low level. Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: The solid South goes solidly Republican. We'll talk with one Democrat who says he will campaign for President Bush.

And later, we mark the passing of Bobby Hatfield, one half of the Righteous Brothers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And plenty of NEWSNIGHT still ahead, including Rosie O'Donnell on the witness stand, and morning papers, too.

We'll take a break first. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ever since George Wallace ran for president in 1968 as an independent, the Democratic Party has seen its hold on Southern states diminish, to the point the solid South increasingly means the Republican South.

In a moment, you'll hear from a Southern Democrat, Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, argue that he hasn't changed; his party has. Others see the problem differently, but a problem, it is clearly. Whatever the diagnosis, Democrats recognize that winning the White House next year won't be easy without winning a number of Southern states. And judging by the elections this week, they've got a lot of work to do.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Somewhere, far away from Kentucky...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to work with Republicans and Democrats.

CROWLEY: And hundreds of miles from Mississippi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I appreciate all the Democrats, the tens of thousands of Democrats who voted for me today.

CROWLEY: At the headquarters of the Democratic Party, you can hear teeth grinding. Mississippi's governor-elect, you see, is a Republican, big time. Kentucky's governor-elect is a card-carrying George W. Bush Republican. It seems like only Tuesday -- in fact, it was -- that Southern Democratic governors, in blue, were holding their own against Republicans, in red.

The hue is different now. You can understand why Democratic Party leaders are looking for a little Southern comfort.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: We have a very important gubernatorial election coming up in Louisiana in a week, a little over a week. I'm very confident that we're going to win that contest.

CROWLEY: And you can understand that two new governorships would be a pleasant oasis to a president struggling to right the economy and a war and facing reelection.

ED GILLESPIE, RNC CHAIRMAN: We anticipate these states will be competitive off and on. But we clearly have the edge in the Southern states right now. And I think we'll hold it in '04 as well.

CROWLEY: The South is about more than governorships. It's also about Senate seats held by four Democrats, Florida's Graham, South Carolina's Hollings, and Georgia's Miller, all retiring, and North Carolina's Edwards, running for president. And it's about the Bush red sweep of the South in 2000, which brings us to this, the Boston debate of the '04 Democratic hopefuls.

Casual, comfortable, looking very much in their element, they spoke to an audience of young Northeasterners about a variety of cultural issues, whether they ever smoked dope, their position on gun control.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't want to be the candidate of the NRA in this country. I don't think the Democratic Party should be the candidacy of the NRA.

(APPLAUSE)

CROWLEY: And gay rights.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Gays, lesbians, bisexual, transgendered people, under my administration, would have full participation and they would also have the right to marry.

CROWLEY: And how to win back conservative Southern white Democrats.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we don't reach out to every single American, we can't win.

CROWLEY: It was a case study in everything Georgia Democrat Zell Miller has been complaining about.

SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: They have catered to these narrow interests, extreme liberal special interest groups who are taking and have taken the party out of the mainstream.

CROWLEY: By the way, Miller is one Georgia Democratic who plans to vote for George Bush next fall.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And we spoke at some length with senator Zell Miller a bit earlier today. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Let's begin, I guess, with a simple question, or perhaps not so simple. Given what you have written and what you have said, why are you still a Democrat?

MILLER: I know this is hard to understand.

But I'm 72 years old and I have lived in this old house for a long time. That's what I compare it to, a house that's old that I've lived in that now is getting kind of rundown and got some strangers living in the basement that I don't even know. But it's where I've always been. And I could probably be more comfortable in another house, but I haven't got many years to live in this house. And I was here first and I'm not going to leave.

Now, I know that's hard to understand from people that think about political parties governing everything. But I'm comfortable with that decision and my family is comfortable with it, and so are my neighbors. And that's all that matters.

BROWN: If you could reshape the Democratic Party, how would it be different from the Republican Party?

MILLER: Well, first of all, I would go back and look at what John Kennedy did. He had the successful formula. And he carried Massachusetts. He carried Georgia by a larger percentage of the vote than he carried his home state of Massachusetts.

In fact, I think Georgia was second in the nation, next to Rhode Island. And he carried South Carolina and North Carolina. How did he do that? Because he was very tough on national security. He defeated Nixon in those debates on national security. Remember Quemoy and Matsu and all those things?

And he was also a tax cutter. And when he became president, he cut taxes. He cut taxes really more than Bush has cut taxes, in a comparable way. And he aided the rich in a greater way, those tax cuts did. And he stood up to the Russians. And it was a successful formula. But look what has happened since then. In the 10 cycles since then, the Democrats have only carried the South -- they haven't carried a single state in the South four times. They've carried one state twice. They've carried a handful of states three times, and they won. And they carried, of course, the South in 1976, when Jimmy Carter ran as a favorite son.

BROWN: Right.

I got all that. And I'm not sure I understand the answer to the question, which is, how would Zell Miller's Democratic Party be different from what exists today as the Republican Party?

MILLER: Well, first of all, I wouldn't worry about whether it looked like that. I have had some people say, hey, you're talking about Republican-light. You're talking about Bush-light. I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about where the people are. And that's where you've got to be. Go back and look. If you don't want to go back as far as 1960, just go back to 1992 or '96, when Bill Clinton ran. In '92, it was: We're going to change welfare as we know it. We're going to stand up to the special interests. I've balanced the budget 10 times. I know how to do it.

And, in '96, he made that State of the Union speech that was brilliant, where he said, the era of big government is over and you can't have a federal program for every problem that there is. And you've got to attack gangs like we attacked the mob, and on and on and on. That was the winning combination. That's how a Democrat ran and won.

BROWN: You argue -- and it's a really interestingly laid-out argument -- that the party is no longer a national party. What Democrats might respond with is, hey, we got more votes in the last presidential election than the Republicans did. We didn't win it, but Democrats, in fact, got more votes. In what sense, then, is it not a national party?

MILLER: Well, two ways.

First of all, you win the presence by carrying the electoral vote. And don't think that some of the smart Democrats don't remember that and understand it. Who do you think it was right out front wanting to change the electoral vote right after 2000? You know the first one out of the box advocating it? Hillary Clinton.

Also, of course, the Democrats are going to continue to win elections. They're going to continue to raise a lot of money. But they are not going to continue to carry most of those red states, especially that third of the country that we call the Southern part of the country, because they have completely written it off. You can't have a national Democratic leader go into the South without doing more harm than good.

Terry McAuliffe can't go to the South to help a fellow Democrat, because he's too liberal. So is Bill Clinton. So is Al Gore. Certainly, Tom Daschle is, and Nancy Pelosi. How can you call yourself a national party when your leaders can't even campaign throughout the 50 states?

BROWN: Let me -- just a final question in our final moments. Do you see any issues on which President Bush is vulnerable?

MILLER: Well, I don't right now. But, of course, things can change. I don't think you're going to see, it's the economy, stupid, as the slogan for Democrats in 2004. I think that is going to be gone with the wind.

Who knows what is going to happen as far as homeland security and what's going to happen with the war in Iraq. But I know this: The American people like having a commander in chief that they know does not suffer from paralysis analysis and can make a decision.

BROWN: Senator Miller, it's good to talk to you. I hope you'll come back and talk with us some more over the...

MILLER: I hope so, too.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

MILLER: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Zell Miller earlier today.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the star vs. the media monolith. Rosie O'Donnell takes the stand in a lawsuit vs. the company that used to run her magazine.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are two completely opposite versions of Rosie O'Donnell's personality. Is she the queen of nice, as "Newsweek" magazine dubbed her during the heyday of TV talk show, or is she the queen of mean, as might be inferred by some of the things she's alleged to have said in the days of her namesake national magazine.

Today, in the lawsuit that was the result of the failure of that magazine, Mrs. O'Donnell got to tell her side of the story.

Here's CNN's Mary Snow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No stranger to the spotlight, this is one stage that appeared to make Rosie O'Donnell nervous, referring to the judge as sir, she even told him at one point, "This is the first time I'm doing this." Outside, she was asked how she felt she did.

ROSIE O'DONNELL, COMEDIAN: I sat through the entire case. I was hoping for summary judgment. I will now wait until the end of the case. And then I feel fairly certain that the judge will decide in our favor.

SNOW: In stark contrast to previous days, when testimony became emotional and tempers flared, the day's testimony was subdued. It focused on financials, O'Donnell's lawyers questioning Gruner & Jahr CEO Daniel Brewster about whether he deliberately inflated the magazine revenue numbers.

Under her contract, if the magazine lost $4.2 million in a year, Rosie O'Donnell would be able to walk away. Brewster testified that he did not fix the numbers and later told reporters that she broke the contract illegally.

DANIEL BREWSTER, CEO, GRUNER & JAHR: And the fundamental question is, did she one day, in a fit of tantrum, simply walk away? And that is what she did. And that's what we're demonstrating.

SNOW: In her testimony, O'Donnell said Brewster had to convince her to be involved with the magazine, that her contract gave her most of the editorial control, and she was persuaded to approve the hiring of Susan Toepfer as editor in chief.

(on camera): Rosie O'Donnell will take the stand again on Friday and continue to be questioned by her own attorneys and then be cross- examined by attorneys for publisher G&J.

Mary Snow, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll take a break, then morning papers.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Right on cue.

Time to check morning papers from around the country. Today was a day where there was an absence of an obvious lead story, so a lot of local stories make the front pages of local newspapers. That sort of makes sense, now, doesn't it?

"The Cincinnati Enquirer." This is a workplace shooting. "Two Dead, Three Wounded in West Chester Township." I assume that's TWP. "Shooter Fired Away, Vanished in Seconds. Suspect Surrenders at Indiana Truck Stop." One, two, three, four, five, six sidebars to this story in "The Cincinnati Enquirer." Another local story, also. "Sick-Out Leaves Hospital Short. Some Surgeries Were Rescheduled." That's "The Cincinnati Enquirer."

"The Atlanta Journal-Constitution" leads with the economy. "Jobless Claims Nosedive As Economy Ratchets Up" is their big lead. But their feature story on the front page, "Athlete's Slaying Stuns Town, LaGrange Mourns For Cincinnati Reds Outfielder Dernell Stenson," hometown boy who made good and then was cut down. This is a horrible story. I don't mean the story is horrible, but you know what I mean. The young man was shot in Arizona. He was playing winter ball, or whatever they call that in Arizona, and very messy.

"Richmond Times-Dispatch," Virginia news leader, as they like to say on the masthead. "Jurors See Model of Trunk." This is a sniper story. "Video Also Used to Show How Suspects Allegedly Used Car as Snipers Nest in Shooting." But their big feature story is "Flood Policy Seemingly in Vain." This is a story on national flood insurance which doesn't seem to be helping, at least not this family.

About a minute left, they tell me.

Two stories in Detroit about schools, different takes by the two papers. "The Detroit Free Press." "Schools Courting Surpluses, Says Union. It Asks State to Shift Money to Needier Districts." That's "The Detroit Free Press."

"The Detroit News," the other morning paper in the city. "Schools Face $135 Million in Cuts." You have to -- I guess we'll have to read all of these stories to understand the education mess in Detroit.

"The San Francisco Chronicle." "U.S. Judge Blocks Ban on Late- Term Abortions. Ruling Comes Day After Bush Signed Law," rulings in California and New York on that.

And we'll end it, as we do, with "The Chicago Sun-Times." "Governor Calls Lawmakers Drunken Sailors. Blagojevich Says He'll Put a Stop to Spending Orgy in Springfield." The weather tomorrow in Chicago in "goose bumps"

We'll take a break. And when we come back, a tribute to one of the Righteous Brothers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, the voice of a million slow dances. It was the voice that made your girlfriend cry watching the movie "Ghost" -- and you, too, if you're being honest about it -- a voice that helped fog a generation of car windows and, along with a second voice, gave rise to a musical category that defined the singers and the sound, blue-eyed soul.

The voice belonged to Bobby Hatfield, who died last night. He was 63.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): You may not remember their names, but their music was unforgettable. His name was Bobby Hatfield, the tenor half of the Righteous Brothers.

Hatfield and his partner, Bill Medley, just wanted to be good enough to play the lounges in Las Vegas. They shared stages with Frank Sinatra, opened for the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and, in 1964, broke out on their own with the release of "You've Lost That Loving Feeling."

They thought the song a little slow, though, and a little long. They weren't sure it would catch on in the height of Beatlemania. Today, that song is ranked as one of the most played radio songs of all time.

With its rich base and Gospel sound, the Righteous Brothers' blend of rock and rhythm and blues became known as blue-eyed blues, their influence still recognizable today. As an act, they parted ways in '68, but reunited six years later and hit the top 10 again with "Rock 'n' Roll Heaven." And then they stayed together, performing 60 to 80 shows a year together. This year, 40 years after their debut, they were inducted in the Rock 'n' Hall of Fame. And when asked about the group's longevity, Bobby Hatfield said that, "When you get right down to it, rock 'n' roll keeps you young." Bobby Hatfield died too young. He was 63.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's our report for tonight. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next for most of you.

We'll see you again at tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

END

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Question Of Due Process Sacrificed For National Security; Promises From Iraq Dangled Before U.S. Just Before War>


Aired November 6, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
It is a tantalizing notion with interesting implications, the idea that the Iraqis were willing to make significant concessions to avoid a war. We know now how it turned out of course. If it was an honest attempt to prevent war it failed but was it really?

It's the first question we look at tonight this back channel caper begins the whip. Our National Security Correspondent David Ensor starts us off, David a headline from you tonight.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, we know that Iraqi officials approached a Lebanese-American businessman offering a deal. What we don't know is whether this was what is known in the intelligence business as a dangle, an effort to just have caused confusion and get the United States perhaps to hold back on some action or whether it was the real thing and that's the question.

BROWN: It is indeed. David, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

Next to the Pentagon and the question of who's going next to Iraq and how many are going. Our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre with us tonight, Jamie a headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, 85,000 combat troops, including 43,000 reservists are getting the call but even so the Pentagon's rotation plan puts fewer boots on the ground in Iraq next year, yet the Pentagon argues they'll have more ability to go after insurgents. I'll explain their logic.

BROWN: Thank you Jamie.

And CNN's Ben Wedeman is just back from a patrol in an especially dangerous corner of Iraq, Ben a headline from you tonight.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Aaron, well for U.S. troops in Iraq a tour of duty in Fallujah is probably the most dangerous. The local population is not very friendly, often violently so, and roadside bombs, mortar attacks and ambushes are daily occurrences.

BROWN: Ben, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly. Also ahead tonight we'll talk with Georgia Democratic Senator Zell Miller who says he plans to campaign for President Bush next year.

Then the case of MKB arrested after September 11th and shrouded in secrecy. The Supreme Court will decide if the government has gone too far in keeping it from the public.

Then a case that's not secret at all, the very public fight between Rosie O'Donnell and the magazine publisher. Ms. O'Donnell took the witness stand today and we'll have a report on what she said.

And later, of course, we check tomorrow's papers for you and, as always, a performance by your favorite denizen of the barnyard or perhaps ours, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin with a what-if and it is a doozie. What if Saddam Hussein had been willing to do almost anything to avert a war and what if that message was sent? With Americans fighting and dying every day in Iraq the question what if is hardly academic being so uncomfortably close to what might have been so, what if, again CNN's David Ensor?

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): Even as American troops were assembling on the borders of Iraq, a well-placed official in the Pentagon got a message from a Lebanese-American businessman. Saddam Hussein wanted to make a.

IMAD EL-HAGE, LEBANESE AMERICAN BUSINESSMAN: I thought it was only right to convey them back to people and it was up to them to decide what they do with this information.

ENSOR: El-Hage says he met in Beirut and in Baghdad with senior Iraqi officials, including this man, Tahir Jalil Habbush al-Tikriti head of Iraqi military intelligence who told him Iraq would make major concessions to avoid invasion.

EL-HAGE: The Iraqis would be willing to allow between 1,000 to 2,000 U.S. agents, FBI and/or scientists into Iraq to verify according to them the absence of weapons of mass destruction or that they no longer had weapons of mass destruction. The second point they offered to turn over Yasin Abdul Rahman, a terrorist involved with the World Trade Center bombing in 1994.

ENSOR: El-Hage took the message to an aide to Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz and to Richard Pearl, an influential member of a Pentagon advisory group but U.S. intelligence officials say the feeler was just one of many made to potential middlemen, which were checked out by the Central Intelligence Agency and found wanting. On another occasion, they say, Iraqi intelligence told middlemen they would meet Americans in Morocco at a certain place and time. They did not show up.

KENNETH POLLACK, SABAN CENTER AT BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: There is no reason to believe that Iraqi intelligence had any intention of delivering on any of the promises that they were dangling in front of the United States. Far more likely what they were trying to do was to derail the U.S. war effort without actually giving up anything.

ENSOR: The White House spokesman declined to say whether President Bush was informed of the message from el-Hage.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: There simply was no need for back door contacts. The front door was wide open. If people wanted to communicate with us they knew how to do that.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: And administration officials say that really is the point. If the Iraqi regime really had been willing to make the concessions necessary to avoid war they knew who to contact and only a direct high level meeting would have sufficed - Aaron.

BROWN: You said there had been a series of these contacts that had been checked out. Was this one in fact checked out or was it simply rejected?

ENSOR: No, I understand that it was checked out further. I don't know the entire details of in what way it checked out but this was one of a series of contacts that they say were made.

Some seemed to be real, really coming from the Iraqis but at no time were the Iraqis - was a senior Iraqi willing to sit down and actually do a deal with the Americans, which the Americans were offering to do if the Iraqis would do it. There were all these dangles but nothing coming through to the end.

BROWN: David, thank you. We'll have more on this in our next segment. We'll be joined by James Risen whose reporting was a front page story on this in "The New York Times" today and you'll hear more from CNN Analyst Ken Pollack too. That's coming in a little bit.

We first shift gears from the what-ifs to the what is. The president today signed an $87 billion budget bill to fund operations for rebuilding Iraq and Afghanistan.

The Pentagon also announced plans to rotate 85,000 soldiers and Marines into Iraq early next year, among them 43,000 members of the National Guard and Reserves who started receiving notification today. When the current forces rotate out this adds up to fewer men and women on the ground, something critics are leery of but the secretary of defense is not.

Again, here's CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Even as attacks on U.S. forces mount, the Pentagon is planning to send about 25,000 fewer troops to Iraq for the second year of U.S. occupation; however, the Pentagon argues the rotation plan provides a better mix of forces to battle insurgents. DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Numbers do not necessarily equate with capability. We're bringing in forces that are appropriate to deal with the evolving threats in Iraq today, including more mobile infantry elements.

MCINTYRE: Also, among the 85,000 fresh combat troops being alerted are three Army National Guard brigades built around the Army's new more nimble Striker combat vehicles.

All together some 43,000 guard and reserve troops are getting the call, mostly Army, but Marines, Navy and Air Force units are also being tapped, some heading to Afghanistan. It's a strain on the citizen soldiers but unavoidable insists the Pentagon.

LT. GEN. NORTON SCHWARTZ, JOINT STAFF OPERATIONS DIRECTOR: Ladies and gentlemen, we are at war. This is not peacetime and so under the circumstances we find ourselves we are going to respond to the nation's call.

MCINTYRE: Meanwhile, the Pentagon's estimate of Iraqi security forces jumped by 3,000 in a single day from 115,000 to 118,000 raising eyebrows about whether the numbers are inflated.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: All of the Iraqi security force programs are now up and running and they're paying decent wages, which in turn has led to an increase in successful recruiting.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: Now, the Pentagon stresses this troop rotation plan is not inflexible. It's not written in stone and if U.S. commanders believe next year that they need more troops, the Pentagon has said they will get them - Aaron.

BROWN: Was there a projection before the war how many American troops would be in Iraq by the first of next year?

MCINTYRE: Well, it was widely believed in the Pentagon that they thought that they would very quickly be able to get down to about 50,000 or 60,000 troops, although Defense Secretary Rumsfeld was careful never to make that kind of projection.

The Pentagon is still using a somewhat hopeful scenario that the security situation is going to be better and that Iraqi forces will be able to take much of the burden and they admit that if that doesn't happen they have to have a backup plan.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you again, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

Another soldier died in Iraq today. A truck ran over a landmine not far from the border with Syria. The soldier belonged to the 1st Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry and was attached to the 82nd Airborne.

The 82nd has, some would argue, the toughest watch of all these days in Iraq. The division is responsible for, among other places, the city of Fallujah where hardly a day goes by without an attack.

Here's CNN's Ben Wedeman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): This probably isn't the best way to see Fallujah but for the 82nd Airborne Brigade's Bravo Company it seems like the safest. They've come to the mayor's office to guard a meeting between brigade representatives and local religious and tribal leaders.

Captain Ryan Huston is the brigade's liaison with Fallujah's mayor and police. His office has been bombed. He's seen Iraqi policemen and his own men injured in a series of attacks.

APT. RYAN HUSTON, U.S. ARMY: But despite all this our mission stands steadfast and we will not stray from that mission. We will stay here until safety and security is established in Fallujah.

WEDEMAN: Not everyone cared for his message. "Ninety-nine percent of the people want the Americans to leave" contractor Mohammed el-Jumani (ph) told me.

Others want the Americans to stay but to stay out of the city. "The coalition forces should remain on the outskirts of Fallujah to avoid being killed and to avoid killing innocent people" says Sheikh Raffa (ph). After the meeting its clear frustration is mutual.

HUSTON: We're just getting a little tired of the way things are going here and we were just asking for their support.

WEDEMAN: The mayor's office has become the scene for a tense test of wills between U.S. troops and their invisible foes in Fallujah.

(on camera): This compound has become the epicenter for trouble in Fallujah. Rarely does a day go by when it doesn't come under fire.

(voice-over): Just to make their point the Americans swooped down on the mayor's office at night setting up gun positions, waiting for an attack that on this night never happened.

How does it feel to work in a place that looks like it's a magnet for bullets and RPGs?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is a magnet. I mean we've been attacked like pretty much every day. I mean just some small or a big attack doesn't matter but I mean it's my job so I just come out here and do it.

WEDEMAN: A job that requires one finger on the trigger and the other on this city's pulse.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN: And, Aaron, we spent actually three days out there in Fallujah going on a variety of daytime and nighttime patrols and it's clear the 82nd is very much having an impact on the local population, not necessarily a positive one. Many of the people out there complaining that they're too intrusive, their methods are too harsh but those methods do seem to be yielding some results.

In recent days they have captured two former generals from the old regime, generals the 82nd believes have been behind some of these attacks on those troops -- Aaron.

BROWN: Ben, thank you very much, three days of good work. Thank you, Ben Wedeman.

The reality of Fallujah and Iraq and war since wars began is a simple one. For whatever else they do and for whatever reasons they are fought wars result in broken machines and shattered bodies and losses to grieve. Two reminders today, a memorial for the victims of the helicopter crash this weekend in Iraq and the echoes of another war in another place 30 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): The facts are simple, as the facts of funerals usually are. In the desert night northwest of Baghdad, the 3rd Armored Cavalry regiment gathered to say its farewells.

A world away it was mourning at Arlington National Cemetery. Some things were different. It was raining there not burned brown. Dress uniforms replaced combat fatigues but the important things, the essential facts, were the same.

In Iraq, 15 icons made of empty boots, rifles and helmets stood in for those who died in the crash of a Chinook helicopter four days ago. In Arlington, more symbols. These caskets hold no bodies only tiny bits of tooth and bone, fragments from another helicopter that fell to earth in another place, another war.

COL. DAVID TEEPLES, COMMANDER, 3RD CAVALRY: Their lives were lived in freedom. Their deaths were in the cause of freedom. They all were volunteers serving our country, answering our nation's call to fight a war against terrorism.

BROWN: Warrant Office Paul Black also answered his country's call. He was commanding a Huey gunship, call sign Jaguar Yellow Bird, when it nose-dived into a Cambodian rice patty that was 30 years ago.

His crewmates' bodies were found. Their families could grieve and go on. Paul Black's family had to wait hoping in vain until enough bits and enough tests sealed their loss.

In Iraq, soldiers came together, wept, and remembered young men and women who now must go on to other battles. Those gathered in Arlington were older today, grayer certainly, but the need to honor the fallen was no different, the need for an end, an answer just as strong.

The facts are much the same tradition and ritual consoling the family, giving fellow soldiers the strength to go back to battle. There was this difference though those were blanks fired over one ceremony, live rounds were in the guns at the other.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll look in greater detail at this back channel effort by Iraq to fend off an American attack if, in fact, that's what it was.

Then the case of MKB, the Supreme Court will decide if the government has been too secretive in cases related to September 11th.

Later, Rosie O'Donnell takes the stand in a case that's anything but secret, her battle with the former publisher of her magazine.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More now on the notion that Saddam Hussein wanted to avert a war and was prepared to give up a great deal to do it. Some of this reads like a novel or a tragically missed opportunity or perhaps no big deal. It depends a lot on who you ask.

We thought we'd ask the reporter whose piece in "The New York Times" got everyone talking today. James Risen joins us, also with us from Washington Ken Pollack, CNN Analyst and Director of Research at the Saban Center for Middle East Policy. It's nice to see you both.

Jim, what make you think it was real and I don't mean that these contacts were actually made, of course, everybody, I think acknowledges that, but that it in fact represented the wishes of the top level of the Iraqi government?

JAMES RISEN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Well that's, you know, a little bit of speculation, although I spent a lot of time over the last few weeks with Imad Hage, who is this Lebanese- American businessman in Beirut who was through a very odd series of coincidences kind of swept into this in a way I think that surprised him more than anybody else.

And, I'm convinced that what he got caught up in was real and that it had the sanction of Saddam Hussein. He met personally in Baghdad with the head of Iraqi intelligence and he was making very specific points and proposals that I don't think he would have made, especially in Baghdad, without Saddam Hussein's knowledge if not approval.

BROWN: And, Ken, you feel at least as strongly that this was something less than it appears to be.

POLLACK: Yes, look, first I don't dispute any of Mr. Risen's reporting. I'm perfectly willing to believe that Imad Hage believed that what he had was the genuine offer. I'm even willing to believe, although here I start to get skeptical, but I'm even willing to believe that Saddam was aware of what was being offered. I also have no doubt that it was not a serious deal. In fact, everything that I hear leads me to believe that this was yet another Iraqi intelligence operation like we had seen countless Iraqi intelligence operations in the past. In truth, the Iraqis offered nothing that they hadn't offered before and there was no expectation that they would actually deliver on anything that they actually did offer.

BROWN: Well, but they did. I mean I'm not sure I disagree with you but they did offer, one of the things they offered, as I read it, was thousands, perhaps several thousand American soldiers or FBI agents or scientists or some combination of all of them to come into Iraq and do a weapons search if that's what the Americans wanted.

POLLACK: Well, look, how many times did the Iraqis publicly accept the proposition that they had to allow U.N. inspectors and, of course, the U.N. inspectors were determined solely by the U.N., free and unfettered access to all of Iraq and how many times did they renege on it, every time.

BROWN: Jim, in the reporting of the story do the sources all believe that, because here's the predicate of the question, there's been a lot of reporting since the war that Saddam didn't really believe the Americans had the courage to attack or the willingness to attack so why should we believe now that Saddam was trying to avert this?

RISEN: I think, as Ken said, you know, you can't get into the mind of Saddam Hussein very easily. It's quite possible this was all, that he wasn't really serious about this. All I'm saying in my reporting is that this happened. This channel happened.

I believe that, in fact, I think the reporting I've done since I came back from Beirut has convinced me even more that Imad Hage did, in fact, meet with Tahir Habbush.

Habbush told him that there were other attempts at meetings with the CIA and gave him specifics on other meetings that the CIA and the Iraqi intelligence had attempted to have or had had. CIA and other American officials then confirmed the very same meetings with me that I'd first heard from Hage who had heard it from Habbush.

So, I'm convinced that Habbush met with Hage, that Hage then met with Richard Pearl, that Pearl then talked to the CIA. I'm not trying to say that this was real or that Saddam Hussein was serious. I'm just saying this channel happened.

BROWN: Right and quickly I guess why not just pick up the phone and call the White House or the CIA or the Pentagon? Why this elaborate back channel?

RISEN: Well, I think the one, I mean I'm no expert on the Arab world but I do think that it's quite possible that third world countries and leaders of third world countries don't understand how bureaucratic Washington has become, that they don't understand that informal channels here are viewed in a much more suspect way than they are in many other parts of the world.

And, I think Richard Pearl had obviously become a name that everyone knew around the world and Hage, the reason they contacted Hage was because they found out that he knew Pearl, which was true. He had met him and had a relationship, some relationship with him.

And, I think they wanted to get to Pearl because in part I think they had been dissatisfied with the official contacts. They thought maybe - I think what they thought was maybe that they could get different answers in an informal back channel than they were getting officially.

BROWN: Ken, good to have you with us; Jim, nice piece of reporting in the paper today.

RISEN: Thanks.

BROWN: We appreciate your time tonight. Thanks a lot.

RISEN: Thanks.

POLLACK: Thank you.

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT 9/11 and secrecy and the case of a man apparently cleared of any wrongdoing, at least he thinks he was. The trouble is the case is so secret he can't find out.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are aspects to the new normal that takes some getting used to from going barefoot through airport security to grappling with the daily reports of casualties coming out of Iraq.

We adapt too much but much as we do some things are harder to accept than others, among them the idea that traditional notions of due process have been sacrificed in the name of national security.

A case study now, one that may soon be a case before the Supreme Court, here's CNN's John Zarrella.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN MIAMI BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): These days you can find Mohamed Kamel Bellahouel helping out at his mother-in- law's deli. Two years ago he could barely help himself.

It was one month after 9/11. Kamel, an Algerian national and his wife Edith, had been married four months when he was detained by the FBI, held at this detention center for five months and then released, no charges filed.

MOHAMED KAMEL BELLAHOUEL, FORMER DETAINEE: What happened was I believe unjust and inhuman and I think there was a lot of discrimination on that. ZARRELLA: In similar detention cases since 9/11, the government has maintained its right to keep any proceedings secret based on national security. After his release, Kamel filed a federal civil suit challenging the secrecy of the case and now the Supreme Court wants to know why the government kept everything about Kamel's case hush-hush. The very existence of the case only became public after records were accidentally posted on the Appeals Court website.

BELLAHOUEL: The public should know what happened. The case should be unsealed. I mean if we live in a democracy.

ZARRELLA: Even Kamel's appeals of lower court decisions have been kept secret.

DAVID RIVKIN, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT OFFICIAL: The courts must have agreed, or the government, because the way the district court hearing was held clearly would not have happened. It did because the government wanted it to.

ZARRELLA: The Supreme Court justices, of course, see the full text. This is what the public sees, for the most part, blank pages. Kamel is identified only by his initials, MKB. Some constitutional expert say there is a right to know why they are blank.

FLOYD ABRAMS, LEGAL EXPERT: If there's going to be secrecy, there has got to be a reason. It has got to be spelled out. Lawyers have the right to argue it. And the public has a right to know there's something going on which is secret.

ZARRELLA: The government won't comment on the case, but Kamel says he was told he was detained because he had been a waiter at a restaurant frequented by two of the hijackers. And a movie theater employee said she saw him and another of the hijackers together.

(on camera): But we never know if these are real reasons Kamel was held behind bars for five months, because, as far as the government is concerned, he's still known only as MKB and his case is still a secret.

John Zarrella, CNN, Miami.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Some late news out of Washington tonight that brings a familiar queasy feeling. The Associated Press is reporting that the Postal Service has closed down 11 facilities in and around the District. This is a precaution after a test at a Naval mail facility came back positive for anthrax.

That facility is also shut down tonight while further testing is done. Where the anthrax came from and whether this is something new or simply the residue from two years ago, we can't yet say. A spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security was quick to point out that the test results, while coming back positive, were at a very low level. Still to come on NEWSNIGHT: The solid South goes solidly Republican. We'll talk with one Democrat who says he will campaign for President Bush.

And later, we mark the passing of Bobby Hatfield, one half of the Righteous Brothers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And plenty of NEWSNIGHT still ahead, including Rosie O'Donnell on the witness stand, and morning papers, too.

We'll take a break first. Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ever since George Wallace ran for president in 1968 as an independent, the Democratic Party has seen its hold on Southern states diminish, to the point the solid South increasingly means the Republican South.

In a moment, you'll hear from a Southern Democrat, Senator Zell Miller of Georgia, argue that he hasn't changed; his party has. Others see the problem differently, but a problem, it is clearly. Whatever the diagnosis, Democrats recognize that winning the White House next year won't be easy without winning a number of Southern states. And judging by the elections this week, they've got a lot of work to do.

Here's CNN's Candy Crowley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Somewhere, far away from Kentucky...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are going to work with Republicans and Democrats.

CROWLEY: And hundreds of miles from Mississippi.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I appreciate all the Democrats, the tens of thousands of Democrats who voted for me today.

CROWLEY: At the headquarters of the Democratic Party, you can hear teeth grinding. Mississippi's governor-elect, you see, is a Republican, big time. Kentucky's governor-elect is a card-carrying George W. Bush Republican. It seems like only Tuesday -- in fact, it was -- that Southern Democratic governors, in blue, were holding their own against Republicans, in red.

The hue is different now. You can understand why Democratic Party leaders are looking for a little Southern comfort.

SEN. TOM DASCHLE (D-SD), MINORITY LEADER: We have a very important gubernatorial election coming up in Louisiana in a week, a little over a week. I'm very confident that we're going to win that contest.

CROWLEY: And you can understand that two new governorships would be a pleasant oasis to a president struggling to right the economy and a war and facing reelection.

ED GILLESPIE, RNC CHAIRMAN: We anticipate these states will be competitive off and on. But we clearly have the edge in the Southern states right now. And I think we'll hold it in '04 as well.

CROWLEY: The South is about more than governorships. It's also about Senate seats held by four Democrats, Florida's Graham, South Carolina's Hollings, and Georgia's Miller, all retiring, and North Carolina's Edwards, running for president. And it's about the Bush red sweep of the South in 2000, which brings us to this, the Boston debate of the '04 Democratic hopefuls.

Casual, comfortable, looking very much in their element, they spoke to an audience of young Northeasterners about a variety of cultural issues, whether they ever smoked dope, their position on gun control.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I don't want to be the candidate of the NRA in this country. I don't think the Democratic Party should be the candidacy of the NRA.

(APPLAUSE)

CROWLEY: And gay rights.

REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D-OH), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Gays, lesbians, bisexual, transgendered people, under my administration, would have full participation and they would also have the right to marry.

CROWLEY: And how to win back conservative Southern white Democrats.

HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If we don't reach out to every single American, we can't win.

CROWLEY: It was a case study in everything Georgia Democrat Zell Miller has been complaining about.

SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: They have catered to these narrow interests, extreme liberal special interest groups who are taking and have taken the party out of the mainstream.

CROWLEY: By the way, Miller is one Georgia Democratic who plans to vote for George Bush next fall.

Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And we spoke at some length with senator Zell Miller a bit earlier today. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Let's begin, I guess, with a simple question, or perhaps not so simple. Given what you have written and what you have said, why are you still a Democrat?

MILLER: I know this is hard to understand.

But I'm 72 years old and I have lived in this old house for a long time. That's what I compare it to, a house that's old that I've lived in that now is getting kind of rundown and got some strangers living in the basement that I don't even know. But it's where I've always been. And I could probably be more comfortable in another house, but I haven't got many years to live in this house. And I was here first and I'm not going to leave.

Now, I know that's hard to understand from people that think about political parties governing everything. But I'm comfortable with that decision and my family is comfortable with it, and so are my neighbors. And that's all that matters.

BROWN: If you could reshape the Democratic Party, how would it be different from the Republican Party?

MILLER: Well, first of all, I would go back and look at what John Kennedy did. He had the successful formula. And he carried Massachusetts. He carried Georgia by a larger percentage of the vote than he carried his home state of Massachusetts.

In fact, I think Georgia was second in the nation, next to Rhode Island. And he carried South Carolina and North Carolina. How did he do that? Because he was very tough on national security. He defeated Nixon in those debates on national security. Remember Quemoy and Matsu and all those things?

And he was also a tax cutter. And when he became president, he cut taxes. He cut taxes really more than Bush has cut taxes, in a comparable way. And he aided the rich in a greater way, those tax cuts did. And he stood up to the Russians. And it was a successful formula. But look what has happened since then. In the 10 cycles since then, the Democrats have only carried the South -- they haven't carried a single state in the South four times. They've carried one state twice. They've carried a handful of states three times, and they won. And they carried, of course, the South in 1976, when Jimmy Carter ran as a favorite son.

BROWN: Right.

I got all that. And I'm not sure I understand the answer to the question, which is, how would Zell Miller's Democratic Party be different from what exists today as the Republican Party?

MILLER: Well, first of all, I wouldn't worry about whether it looked like that. I have had some people say, hey, you're talking about Republican-light. You're talking about Bush-light. I'm not talking about that at all. I'm talking about where the people are. And that's where you've got to be. Go back and look. If you don't want to go back as far as 1960, just go back to 1992 or '96, when Bill Clinton ran. In '92, it was: We're going to change welfare as we know it. We're going to stand up to the special interests. I've balanced the budget 10 times. I know how to do it.

And, in '96, he made that State of the Union speech that was brilliant, where he said, the era of big government is over and you can't have a federal program for every problem that there is. And you've got to attack gangs like we attacked the mob, and on and on and on. That was the winning combination. That's how a Democrat ran and won.

BROWN: You argue -- and it's a really interestingly laid-out argument -- that the party is no longer a national party. What Democrats might respond with is, hey, we got more votes in the last presidential election than the Republicans did. We didn't win it, but Democrats, in fact, got more votes. In what sense, then, is it not a national party?

MILLER: Well, two ways.

First of all, you win the presence by carrying the electoral vote. And don't think that some of the smart Democrats don't remember that and understand it. Who do you think it was right out front wanting to change the electoral vote right after 2000? You know the first one out of the box advocating it? Hillary Clinton.

Also, of course, the Democrats are going to continue to win elections. They're going to continue to raise a lot of money. But they are not going to continue to carry most of those red states, especially that third of the country that we call the Southern part of the country, because they have completely written it off. You can't have a national Democratic leader go into the South without doing more harm than good.

Terry McAuliffe can't go to the South to help a fellow Democrat, because he's too liberal. So is Bill Clinton. So is Al Gore. Certainly, Tom Daschle is, and Nancy Pelosi. How can you call yourself a national party when your leaders can't even campaign throughout the 50 states?

BROWN: Let me -- just a final question in our final moments. Do you see any issues on which President Bush is vulnerable?

MILLER: Well, I don't right now. But, of course, things can change. I don't think you're going to see, it's the economy, stupid, as the slogan for Democrats in 2004. I think that is going to be gone with the wind.

Who knows what is going to happen as far as homeland security and what's going to happen with the war in Iraq. But I know this: The American people like having a commander in chief that they know does not suffer from paralysis analysis and can make a decision.

BROWN: Senator Miller, it's good to talk to you. I hope you'll come back and talk with us some more over the...

MILLER: I hope so, too.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

MILLER: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Zell Miller earlier today.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the star vs. the media monolith. Rosie O'Donnell takes the stand in a lawsuit vs. the company that used to run her magazine.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are two completely opposite versions of Rosie O'Donnell's personality. Is she the queen of nice, as "Newsweek" magazine dubbed her during the heyday of TV talk show, or is she the queen of mean, as might be inferred by some of the things she's alleged to have said in the days of her namesake national magazine.

Today, in the lawsuit that was the result of the failure of that magazine, Mrs. O'Donnell got to tell her side of the story.

Here's CNN's Mary Snow.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No stranger to the spotlight, this is one stage that appeared to make Rosie O'Donnell nervous, referring to the judge as sir, she even told him at one point, "This is the first time I'm doing this." Outside, she was asked how she felt she did.

ROSIE O'DONNELL, COMEDIAN: I sat through the entire case. I was hoping for summary judgment. I will now wait until the end of the case. And then I feel fairly certain that the judge will decide in our favor.

SNOW: In stark contrast to previous days, when testimony became emotional and tempers flared, the day's testimony was subdued. It focused on financials, O'Donnell's lawyers questioning Gruner & Jahr CEO Daniel Brewster about whether he deliberately inflated the magazine revenue numbers.

Under her contract, if the magazine lost $4.2 million in a year, Rosie O'Donnell would be able to walk away. Brewster testified that he did not fix the numbers and later told reporters that she broke the contract illegally.

DANIEL BREWSTER, CEO, GRUNER & JAHR: And the fundamental question is, did she one day, in a fit of tantrum, simply walk away? And that is what she did. And that's what we're demonstrating.

SNOW: In her testimony, O'Donnell said Brewster had to convince her to be involved with the magazine, that her contract gave her most of the editorial control, and she was persuaded to approve the hiring of Susan Toepfer as editor in chief.

(on camera): Rosie O'Donnell will take the stand again on Friday and continue to be questioned by her own attorneys and then be cross- examined by attorneys for publisher G&J.

Mary Snow, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll take a break, then morning papers.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Right on cue.

Time to check morning papers from around the country. Today was a day where there was an absence of an obvious lead story, so a lot of local stories make the front pages of local newspapers. That sort of makes sense, now, doesn't it?

"The Cincinnati Enquirer." This is a workplace shooting. "Two Dead, Three Wounded in West Chester Township." I assume that's TWP. "Shooter Fired Away, Vanished in Seconds. Suspect Surrenders at Indiana Truck Stop." One, two, three, four, five, six sidebars to this story in "The Cincinnati Enquirer." Another local story, also. "Sick-Out Leaves Hospital Short. Some Surgeries Were Rescheduled." That's "The Cincinnati Enquirer."

"The Atlanta Journal-Constitution" leads with the economy. "Jobless Claims Nosedive As Economy Ratchets Up" is their big lead. But their feature story on the front page, "Athlete's Slaying Stuns Town, LaGrange Mourns For Cincinnati Reds Outfielder Dernell Stenson," hometown boy who made good and then was cut down. This is a horrible story. I don't mean the story is horrible, but you know what I mean. The young man was shot in Arizona. He was playing winter ball, or whatever they call that in Arizona, and very messy.

"Richmond Times-Dispatch," Virginia news leader, as they like to say on the masthead. "Jurors See Model of Trunk." This is a sniper story. "Video Also Used to Show How Suspects Allegedly Used Car as Snipers Nest in Shooting." But their big feature story is "Flood Policy Seemingly in Vain." This is a story on national flood insurance which doesn't seem to be helping, at least not this family.

About a minute left, they tell me.

Two stories in Detroit about schools, different takes by the two papers. "The Detroit Free Press." "Schools Courting Surpluses, Says Union. It Asks State to Shift Money to Needier Districts." That's "The Detroit Free Press."

"The Detroit News," the other morning paper in the city. "Schools Face $135 Million in Cuts." You have to -- I guess we'll have to read all of these stories to understand the education mess in Detroit.

"The San Francisco Chronicle." "U.S. Judge Blocks Ban on Late- Term Abortions. Ruling Comes Day After Bush Signed Law," rulings in California and New York on that.

And we'll end it, as we do, with "The Chicago Sun-Times." "Governor Calls Lawmakers Drunken Sailors. Blagojevich Says He'll Put a Stop to Spending Orgy in Springfield." The weather tomorrow in Chicago in "goose bumps"

We'll take a break. And when we come back, a tribute to one of the Righteous Brothers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, the voice of a million slow dances. It was the voice that made your girlfriend cry watching the movie "Ghost" -- and you, too, if you're being honest about it -- a voice that helped fog a generation of car windows and, along with a second voice, gave rise to a musical category that defined the singers and the sound, blue-eyed soul.

The voice belonged to Bobby Hatfield, who died last night. He was 63.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): You may not remember their names, but their music was unforgettable. His name was Bobby Hatfield, the tenor half of the Righteous Brothers.

Hatfield and his partner, Bill Medley, just wanted to be good enough to play the lounges in Las Vegas. They shared stages with Frank Sinatra, opened for the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and, in 1964, broke out on their own with the release of "You've Lost That Loving Feeling."

They thought the song a little slow, though, and a little long. They weren't sure it would catch on in the height of Beatlemania. Today, that song is ranked as one of the most played radio songs of all time.

With its rich base and Gospel sound, the Righteous Brothers' blend of rock and rhythm and blues became known as blue-eyed blues, their influence still recognizable today. As an act, they parted ways in '68, but reunited six years later and hit the top 10 again with "Rock 'n' Roll Heaven." And then they stayed together, performing 60 to 80 shows a year together. This year, 40 years after their debut, they were inducted in the Rock 'n' Hall of Fame. And when asked about the group's longevity, Bobby Hatfield said that, "When you get right down to it, rock 'n' roll keeps you young." Bobby Hatfield died too young. He was 63.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And that's our report for tonight. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next for most of you.

We'll see you again at tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

END

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