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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Planting Democracy in Iraq; Interview With Howard Dean
Aired November 12, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening once again from Washington.
A lot going on right now, both in Iraq, as well as here in the nation's capital. American forces today dramatically stepped up activity against suspected insurgents. And, once again, today, the insurgents struck hard.
As a backdrop to it all, a CIA report concluding that support for the insurgency is growing and along with it, the challenge to the White House, the troops and the president's top man in Iraq, who headed back to Baghdad with a new set of marching orders. So Iraq, in all its dangerous complexity, once again begins the program and "The Whip."
And "The Whip" begins over at the Pentagon with CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, a headline, please.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, for some time, we've known that the ground combat phase of this war is far from over. But over the past couple of days, we've learned that the air war is back as well. I'll tell you the strategy behind it.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Jamie.
Next to Iraq and an especially bloody day there. CNN's Matthew Chance with the duty tonight.
Matthew, a headline from you.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, thanks, Wolf.
Well, amid that apparent toughening of U.S. strategy towards the insurgents, another 26 people were killed today in the southern Iraqi town of Nasiriyah by a suspected suicide bomber. This time, it was the Italian coalition forces who were targeted; 16 of their military personnel lost their lives -- Wolf.
BLITZER: ... back to you.
Let's move on to the White House, though, CNN's Dana Bash standing by.
Dana, the headline there. DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, after a second day of intense meetings here in the White House Situation Room, President Bush is sending Iraq's civil administrator back to Baghdad. He's got a list of options to speed up the political transition. It's a shift in Bush policy -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Dana.
From CNN's Jonathan Karl, at the beginning of what's going to be a very, very long night in the U.S. Senate.
Jon, the headline.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we are now in hour five of a 30-hour marathon that will feature lots and lots of talk, plenty of political theater. but, at the end of it all, not much is expected to change.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Jon.
Back to all of you and the rest coming up shortly.
Also, tonight on NEWSNIGHT, the end of the Rosie O'Donnell lawsuit and a surprising decision by the judge.
A huge endorsement today for Howard Dean by two unions. I sat down with the Democratic presidential candidate for an interview right after that announcement. You might be surprised to hear which of his Democratic rivals he likes as a potential vice presidential running mate.
And in segment seven, we will visit a town where being special means being treated just like everyone else -- all that to come in the coming hour.
First, though, the hard work of turning things around in Iraq, a double-barreled effort centering on speeding up the formation of some kind of legitimate Iraqi government and stepping up the fight against insurgents.
The military side the story first and our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): The air war is back. A U.S. Air Force AC-130 gun ship like this one, with a powerful side-mounted 105- millimeter Howitzer, was used to level a warehouse in southern Baghdad Wednesday night. It's said to be used as a base by anti-U.S. insurgents. It's the latest example of how the U.S. military is using precision air strikes to ratchet up the pace and intensity of its counter-insurgency campaign.
LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, U.S. COALITION COMMANDER: We are taking the fight into the safe havens of the enemy in the heartland of the country where we continue to face former regime loyalists, criminals and foreign terrorists.
MCINTYRE: Monday night, U.S. F-16s dropped 2,000-pound bombs on an empty house south of the Iraqi capital after local residents were warned to stay clear. The stated purpose for destroying the suspected hideout was to deny sanctuary to the anti-coalition insurgents. And there were similar U.S. air strikes to demolish structures near Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit Friday and Saturday.
Pentagon sources say the stepped-up pace of attacks in recent days is also a result of better intelligence coming from local Iraqis who are supporting the U.S.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are confident that our commanders will get on top of it and our intelligence experts will be able to penetrate these remnants of the old regime who were trying to destroy the hopes and aspirations of the Iraqi people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And there's another aspect to the reintroduction of airpower into the Iraq war, and that's the message that they send. U.S. commanders are well aware that they have been losing the battle of perception to the insurgents. And these airstrikes show the power and reach of the U.S. military, show that it, too, can strike with impunity -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie, any indication there is any disconnect, as far as you can tell, between the military side of the Pentagon, as opposed to the civilian political leadership? As both of us know from covering that building for a long time, there often is.
MCINTYRE: Well, it's hard to tell.
Clearly, there's both concern that the Iraqi Governing Council move forward at a faster pace. And there's also frustration that they haven't been able to make better progress in turning the corner in the fight against the insurgents. Of course, one key thing that would really help would be to capture or kill Saddam Hussein. But he still remains a very elusive prey.
BLITZER: CNN's Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon -- thanks very much, Jamie, for that.
Today's airstrikes came not long after one of the deadliest and most daring attacks yet on allied forces, in this case in a location relatively quiet, at least until now -- the motivation, apparently to spread the pain of occupation to those who came to help. At least 26 people were killed, the vast majority of them Italian military police.
Here, once again, CNN's Matthew Chance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE (voice-over): This is one of the deadliest attacks on coalition troops since major combat was declared over. Eyewitnesses spoke of a truck ramming the gates of the Italian compound moments before the blast.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator): A car came, a fuel tanker. There were two people were in it. The Italians opened fire, then both sides began to shoot. They went inside, and then there was an explosion.
CHANCE: The bomb ripped through the entire front of this three- story building. Soldiers scrambled through the rubble to find survivors.
In this relatively placid area of southern Iraq, it seems coalition forces are now ruthlessly targeted.
How to curb the violence and speed up the political process is the challenge for Paul Bremer. And the need for a plan appears urgent. With the attack on the Italians, more than 50 coalition troops have been killed so far this month, in an insurgency even U.S. officials acknowledge could get worse.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE: Well, Wolf, those statistics speaking for themselves.
Out of that 50 or so coalition forces that have been killed, 40 have been U.S. troops. Add to that the Italians who were killed today in Nasiriyah and a Polish officer who was killed last week. And despite what the coalition may say about security on the ground here in Iraq, it's clearly an extremely dangerous place, both for Iraqi civilians and coalition forces.
BLITZER: Those coalition forces, Matthew, any indication they're getting jittery, may have some second thoughts about cooperating with the U.S. and may simply want to pick up and leave?
CHANCE: Well, certainly, that would be the kind of message that the people who perpetrated this latest attack in Nasiriyah may want to convey to the various countries who are considering joining the U.S.- led coalition and providing troops to carry out these duties in areas of Iraq.
Certainly, there have been calls from the Iraq -- the Italian government for -- Italian opposition figures, rather -- for their troops to be withdrawn. At the same time, all those troops on the ground, all the governments have come together again, saying they won't be deterred from their objective, which is to bring democracy to this country.
BLITZER: CNN's Matthew Chance on duty for us in Baghdad once again -- Matthew, thank you very much.
Next to the White House and the footrace between, for want of a better phrase, nation-building and nation-wrecking. With the bad guys doing their work and perhaps a greater number of ordinary Iraqis supporting or at least tolerating them, a window of opportunity appears to be closing, perhaps very rapidly. That explains the emergency meetings under way earlier today over at the White House. Here again, CNN's Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice-over): After two days of White House talks, President Bush is sending his Iraq administrator back to Baghdad with a proposed shift in U.S. strategy to turn governing power over to Iraqis more quickly.
PAUL BREMER, IRAQ CIVIL ADMINISTRATOR: The stakes are very high for moving toward a sovereign Iraqi government.
BASH: According to senior U.S. official, the president authorized a few major options for the U. S. -picked Iraqi Governing Council to consider, including an interim Iraqi constitution and interim Iraqi leadership. Another possibility, a provisional leader like Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai. But U.S. officials caution Iraqis may not accept that model as legitimate because of the country's diverse ethnic and religious makeup, and also say there is no specific timetable for the plan. During the fall U.N. debate, the White House strongly opposed any return of control to Iraqis without free elections.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The constitution must be written, and there will be free elections. And then sovereignty will occur.
BASH: Now a White House concession.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: You need to be willing to adjust and adapt to circumstances on the ground in terms of reconstruction and in terms of the political front.
BASH: This adjustment is fueled by increasing attacks against coalition targets and a new grim CIA assessment more Iraqis disillusioned with the U. S. -led occupation are joining the insurgency.
BREMER: The terrorists are trying to encourage the Iraqi people to believe that the United States is not going to stay the course.
BASH: Officials admit the urgent White House push is also aimed at the slow-moving Iraqi Governing Council to meet a December 15 deadline for a permanent transition plan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And Bush officials say they were intentionally vague about the details of the plan until the governing council is briefed, hoping that Iraqis see their own leaders determining the future of their government and not the White House -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Dana, correct me if I'm wrong, but this latest option, some of these options that Ambassador Bremer is going back to Baghdad with for an interim government, if you will, an interim, temporary constitution, they sound sort of similar to what the French and the Germans have been proposing for some time.
BASH: Well, Wolf, it would not be surprising to hear some I- told-you-so's tonight in Paris and in Berlin.
But in the fall, the White House really thought that the most important thing was not to rush it, was to get a permanent constitution, followed by elections, that that would be the only way for a legitimate government. But now, as one senior official said to me earlier today, they are getting attacked from all sides. Everybody -- or a lot of people are trying to undermine their effort. And there's a growing insurgency to do that. That is why they feel like they need to give more power to the Iraqi people more quickly in order to help stop that -- Wolf.
BLITZER: CNN's Dana Bash over at the White House -- Dana, thank you very much.
When President Bush, in the 2000 campaign, expressed his doubts about the whole idea of nation-building, he had no way of knowing he would one day be presiding over one of most ambitious bits of nation- building in recent history. But these things do happen.
And we want to get a better idea of what lies ahead for the president, for Ambassador Bremer, most important, perhaps, for the U.S. troops serving over there.
With us tonight in New York is Noah Feldman, who served as a senior adviser to the coalition provisional authority on constitutional law. We're pleased to have him on the program.
Noah, thank you very much for joining us.
So what do you make of these new options that Ambassador Bremer is taking back to the Iraqis?
NOAH FELDMAN, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Some that make a lot of sense.
One good possibility is actually holding an election to select people to write a constitution. Other options, though, have been suggested before, like trying to hand the country over to one leader whom we appoint, on the Hamid Karzai model. And the same reasons for not adopting them before apply now. Namely, that there is no one individual who could acquire the trust of the Iraqi people and not seem like our puppet.
And since our main goal is to show the Iraqis that they are in charge of their own government, that would, I think, send really the wrong message.
BLITZER: And hovering over all of is, what, this mid-December deadline for the U.S. to report back to the U.N. Security Council on something. How important is that?
FELDMAN: If we don't meet that deadline and if the governing council doesn't meet that deadline, that's going to send a message that the political track is off-kilter in Iraq, the same way that the security track is off-kilter.
But we should be realistic about this, because the bottom line is that the war is still going on. We thought the war was over and now was the mop-up, but that just wasn't accurate. The first part of the war went well. And now we're in the second part of the war. It's not going as well. And to expect the Iraqis of the governing council or anybody else to push forward rapidly to political solutions while they're still in danger of being shot at and are regularly shot at on the streets, both by opposition and then, mistakenly, on occasion, by our troops, is to really ask too much of them.
BLITZER: So what, realistically, should Ambassador Bremer be pushing for right now in his talks that are upcoming later in the next few days with the Iraqi leadership?
FELDMAN: Ambassador Bremer needs to push the governing council very quickly to state what they think is the best way to choose the members of the constitutional convention.
If that's by electing them, let the governing council say so. If it's by nominating them and then having them confirmed by a referendum, let the governing council say so. But, in all event, have a plan which they state publicly and quickly. And one of the effects of the meetings and of all the suggestions that you've just been mentioning is that they're sending a message. Our government is sending a message to the governing council, saying, look, it's time for you to step up to the plate and make some proposals.
And, if you don't, we're going to make some suggestions for you. And you may not like exactly what we suggest.
BLITZER: Bernard Lewis, the professor from Princeton, and James Woolsey, the former CIA director recently proposed, why not simply revive the old Iraqi constitution from the mid-1920s, at least as an interim step? Is that realistic?
FELDMAN: Well, you're talking about a great scholar and a man who has been a great public servant.
But they're proposing the creation of a monarchy. That is a constitution that centers on a king. And taking the king out of that constitution would be like having the American Constitution without the president in the middle of it. So, just between you and me and the audience, I don't think that's a great idea, because the United States came to establish democracy, not to establish a monarchy.
BLITZER: Is there any sense that you get that this administration, the Bush administration, is deeply divided right now on these very sensitive issues, namely, an interim Iraqi government and creating some sort of temporary constitution?
FELDMAN: I think the slow progress on the political front, which follows from the lousy progress on the security front, is leading people to go back to the drawing books and ask themselves what to do.
And a lot of people are falling back on ideas they had initially. So the people who said initially, let's hand it over to a one-man show are saying again, maybe we should have tried that in the first place. And the people who said initially, let's have an interim constitution, are saying that.
I think the smartest thing to do at stage is to communicate to the Iraqis that we are not changing course, but that we are speeding up, and that they need to name a process for writing a constitution, and that, if they do that, we can make the process happen quickly. We can get that constitutional convention convened, and we can start writing. And once that happens, we'll be on the right track politically. We'll still have to solve the security problems, though.
BLITZER: You said earlier there doesn't appear to be a Hamid Karzai, the Afghan leader, someone like that in Iraq. But what about Ahmad Chalabi? There are plenty of administration officials, especially over at the Pentagon, who think he's the guy.
FELDMAN: I haven't seen evidence thus far -- I didn't see it in Baghdad or I haven't seen it from outside the country -- that Ahmad Chalabi has the kind of broad support on the ground in Iraq that would make him a suitable person for a job like that.
But, of course, that's a judgment call. And, in the absence of rigorous statistics and polls, the best you can do is gather information from the people you speak to and from the intelligence sources you have access to.
BLITZER: One could argue that Hamid Karzai, there was scant evidence he had a whole lot of support outside of the area of Kabul.
FELDMAN: I think the truth is that Hamid Karzai still has scant support anywhere outside the area of Kabul.
In fact, he doesn't have much influence over the rest of the country. So we don't want that model to be the case in Iraq. If we appointed someone who only had power in Baghdad, or even worse, who had only power in the Republican palace in Baghdad, the presidential palace, then we would really be in a worse situation than we're in right now.
BLITZER: The insurgents seem to be not only stepping up their activity against the U.S. and the coalition, but they're becoming much more successful, the deadly nature of what they're doing driven home earlier today in Nasiriyah against the Italians, for example. How much of an impact are they having and how much of a window is there for the U.S. and its partners to get the job done?
FELDMAN: The insurgents create a problem, not only because they kill innocent Iraqis who are trying to help with the process of democratization, not only because they help -- they kill members of the coalition who are bravely fighting to try to deliver democracy to Iraqis, but also because they put the U.S. military and other militaries in Iraq on a defensive footing, where we're always worried about being attacked.
And, in turn, we have to retaliate by using violence. We have to shoot at cars if they don't stop at roadblocks. And, as a consequence, there are misunderstandings. And we're in a position where we may end up alienating Iraqis who otherwise would be on our side. So they're having an enormous impact.
They're also sending a message to people involved in the political process that they're not safe. And if they're not safe and can't be protected, they're going to be very unlikely to drive forward in the political process, the way we need them to do right now.
BLITZER: Noah Feldman of New York University Law School, thanks very much for joining us.
FELDMAN: Thank you very much for having me.
BLITZER: And just ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the Rosie O'Donnell trial, it comes to a close with a surprising ruling from the bench. We'll have the details.
And I'll also have an extended interview with the Democratic presidential front-runner, Howard Dean. What he has to say about President Bush, I can tell you right now, is not very pretty.
This is NEWSNIGHT from Washington.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: A headline on "The Washington Post" Web site this evening says it quite simply: "No Winner in Rosie Case," no $100 million judgment against Rosie O'Donnell, no $125 million judgment against the company that published her magazine, until the two sides had a falling-out. But if the headline said it simply, the judge today said it first. And it came as something of a surprise to almost everyone concerned.
From New York, here is CNN's Mary Snow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After 7 1/2 days of testimony about the fireworks behind the scenes at "Rosie" magazine, the end of the trial took a turn that neither side seemed to expect. Judge Ira Gammerman called publisher Gruner & Jahr's $100 million lawsuit against Rosie O'Donnell ill-conceived, saying neither side proved damages beyond legal fees. And he said the magazine wasn't even profitable.
Both sides, he said, seemed to be looking for bragging rights. Rosie O'Donnell left court saying she's glad it's over.
ROSIE O'DONNELL, COMEDIAN: The story of this case is not who won or lost, but simply how many times peace was offered and war was chosen by the other side. We can have peace in this world. We can have peace with each other.
SNOW: The judge's conclusions are not final. He still must decide whether Rosie O'Donnell or Gruner & Jahr breached the contract that led to the demise of "Rosie" magazine. O'Donnell claimed that G & J breached it by seizing editorial control. G & J claims O'Donnell breached it by leaving in what executives called a fit of tantrum. Rosie O'Donnell's lawyers were careful to stop short of declaring victory.
MATTHEW FISHBEIN, O'DONNELL'S LAWYER: Whenever you're sued for $100 million and you walk out of the courtroom with the judge basically telling you you're not going to have to pay a penny, it's hard to get any better than that.
SNOW: Lawyers for Gruner & Jahr disagree.
MARTY HYMAN, PUBLISHER'S LAWYER: Gruner & Jahr believed at the inception of the lawsuit and believes today that Rosie O'Donnell breached the contract. Gruner & Jahr did not enter into this joint venture with the expectation to lose money or not make money. And the fact that the judge has expressed doubts as to whether or not "Rosie" magazine ultimately would have made money down the road does not render the lawsuit to be an ill-conceived lawsuit.
SNOW (on camera): Rosie O'Donnell wants reimbursement for her legal fees, $8 million so far. That's $2 million more than she invested in the magazine in the first place.
Mary Snow, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: More courtroom news begins our look at some of the other stories making news today.
First, the sniper trial of John Muhammad, two developments there. After calling just five witnesses for a grand total of two hours worth of testimony, the defense rested. Also today, the judge refused to take the death penalty off the table, despite scant evidence that defendant Muhammad himself was the triggerman. With jurors out of the room, Judge LeRoy Millette told council "They," meaning Muhammad and Lee Malvo, "were a single unit. They perfected their ability to shoot people," he said. "They perfected their ability to escape."
Florida next, where Stephen Jordi made his first court appearance today. He is charged in connection with an alleged plot to bomb abortion clinics north of the Miami-Dade area. FBI agents nabbed him yesterday in a dramatic arrest. He jumped from a boat trying to get away, but they got him just the same.
And in Northern California, memorial services today for Steven Rucker. Mr. Rucker, you may recall, was the only firefighter to die battling the wildfires around San Diego. Governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger was there. So was Governor Gray Davis. So was Mr. Rucker's wife and two children, ages 7 and 2. And our condolences to them.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, late night with the U.S. Senate, as the debate over judicial nominees goes into overtime. They're meeting right now. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It goes without saying, U.S. senators are fond of talking. After all, it isn't called the world's most distinguished debating society for nothing. And the rules of the Senate essentially allow unlimited debate, unless you have got the votes to stop it, something the Republican majority doesn't have when it comes to the debate tying up a number of President Bush's federal court nominees.
So, minus the votes to stop a filibuster, Republicans tonight are fighting right back with a filibuster of sorts of their own.
Here's CNN's Jonathan Karl.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (voice-over): In a show of force, Republicans marched to the Senate floor to protest Democratic efforts to stymie the president's judicial nominations. They also rolled in the cots, just in case senators need to take a nap as the gabfest goes on through the night Wednesday, all day Thursday, before finally ending early Friday morning.
What's the point of all this talk? Republicans say they're defending the Constitution.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: There's never a good time to hijack the Constitution for political reasons. But the worst time is when you're at war and you have got nine million people unemployed.
KARL: The complaint centers on the president's nominees to the circuit courts, the courts just below the Supreme Court. Democrats have blocked four nominees, all of whom have the support of more than 50 senators. And they have threatened to prevent at least another two nominees from coming up for a vote.
And how can Democrats do that? Under Senate rules, they can prevent a vote with a filibuster, which takes 60 votes to defeat.
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: If they want to vote against these people, that's their right. But they need to have an up-or-down vote. Why are they afraid of a line -- simple up-and-down votes in the case of these excellent nominees?
KARL: Democrats say they've approved 168 of the president's nominees and blocked only four.
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: We confirmed 98 percent of President Bush's judges and all we got was this lousy T-shirt.
KARL: The few they have blocked, Democrats say, are simply too extreme and too conservative.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: People who are getting life appointments should not be extremists, should not be out of the mainstream.
KARL: The debate will go on and on and on for 30 hours or more. But, at the end, nothing is expected to change. Democrats have the votes to block the nominees they don't like, and don't intend to back down. Maybe that's why one Democratic senator showed up with a sign of protest, declaring his intention to go home and watch TV instead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not taking part in this circus.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: Democrats say that, while Republicans complain about how they are treating President Bush's nominees, back when President Clinton was in the White House, Democrats say, the Republicans treated his nominees in much the same way. Republicans say, oh, no, this is a whole new level. So what comes around goes around. That's what much of the debate is going to be about all night, all day tomorrow, and much of tomorrow night -- Wolf.
BLITZER: So, John, if nothing is going to change, if this is all political theater, what is the point?
KARL: Well, there is some political theater here. Republicans are trying to make a point, make a point to their conservative base. Many conservatives have complained that Republicans have not fought enough for some of the president's nominees that have been blocked by Democrats.
So, by doing this for 30 hours straight, they're telling those conservative activists that, yes they are taking this fight as far as they can. They are fighting for those nominees that have been blocked.
BLITZER: All right, so there is a point after all. Thanks very much, Jonathan Karl, for that. And I hope you don't necessarily have to spend the whole night on a cot...
KARL: We'll see.
BLITZER: ... over there in the Senate tonight, but we'll see.
KARL: Thanks.
BLITZER: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, my extended interview with Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean. He's the front-runner for his party's nomination, at least right now. He has got some thoughts about selecting a running mate. Here's a clue: Think four stars.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: And still to come on NEWSNIGHT, my extended interview with the man who is taking the Democratic presidential race by storm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: New Hampshire and Iowa and South Carolina may be targets in the race to win the Democratic Party, but there are some other keys to victory that you can't find on a map. Support from labor unions is one.
Today, former Vermont Governor and Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean won the endorsement of two major labor unions, AFSCME, or the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, and the SEIU, the Service Employees International Union. With this newest feather in his cap, Governor Dean joined us for a conversation this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Governor Dean, thanks so much for joining us.
Let's get right to the issue at hand, Iraq right now. There seems to have been a dramatic turn as we speak, with U.S. forces going on the attack against a target in Baghdad. What do you make of what's going on?
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think the U.S. has to defend itself against the forces of, likely, al Qaeda or Saddam loyalists.
Of course, there were no al Qaeda in Iraq before we invaded. Now there are. So I think the president has, because of his policies, made Iraq into a far more dangerous place to the United States than it ever was when Saddam Hussein was ruling it.
BLITZER: The administration says there was al Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion, in the form of Ansar al-Islam up in the northern part of the country, and that there were some al Qaeda operatives even in Baghdad.
DEAN: Well, there's not -- first of all, there is not great evidence for that that's been discussed in the press.
Secondly of all, Ansar al-Islam was a group that was harassing Iran. And there was some question about whether the United States was, in some way, tacitly supporting them. So I don't think it's quite proper to call them al Qaeda, in the same sense that al Qaeda existed in Afghanistan and killed 3,000 of our people at the World Trade Center.
BLITZER: If you were president of the United States right now, what would you do to resolve this Iraq situation?
DEAN: We need to bring foreign troops into Iraq, preferably from Arabic-speaking and Muslim countries.
George Bush's father, who was a much better diplomat than the president is, had over 100,000 troops in Iraq the first time we went in, which I supported, incidentally. We need to bring troops from Muslim countries into Iraq to help reconstruct Iraq. That should be an international...
BLITZER: But they don't want to go. The U.S. has offered -- invited them. Even the Turks decided, this is not a good idea.
DEAN: Well, the Turks should not have been asked to go in the first place. The idea of Turks patrolling in Iraq, historically, is an incredibly foolish idea. And I'm incredibly disappointed that someone at the State Department didn't figure that out before we asked them to go.
This president will never get the cooperation of the rest of the world. He has alienated practically everybody that's worth alienating in this country. It's a personal matter. He has some part of his personality which leads him to humiliate people who disagree with on policy matter.
BLITZER: So, how would you get Arabic-speaking and Muslim nations to get involved? What would you do?
DEAN: If I become president, before I'm inaugurated, I will go to Europe and I will go to other capitals around the world where the president has gone out of his way to humiliate and ruin our relationships, and to begin to rekindle those relationships.
These relationships can be fixed. We just need a new president to do it, someone without the baggage of this president. We will have, I think, the opportunity to have other troops in Iraq from other countries. Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan, Indonesia, India, which has a substantial Muslim population, as you know, those are the kinds of countries we need help from.
Unfortunately, we will not be able to stop paying the bill. This president has committed us to $87 billion on our credit card every single year for the foreseeable future, until this is straightened out.
BLITZER: General Wesley Clark says, bring NATO in, let NATO take charge, fire Ambassador Paul Bremer as the chief civilian administrator, and, on the political front, let the United Nations take charge. Is General Clark right?
DEAN: Well, I think the United Nations would be the group under which the troops served, barring American troops, because, of course, American troops have never been commanded by anybody that wasn't American.
But I think having the U.N. play a major role in the reconstruction of Iraq is the right thing to do.
BLITZER: What about NATO?
DEAN: NATO is fine. But, remember, most NATO countries are not Muslim countries, other than Turkey. And I think the Turks do not belong in Iraq. I think that was a wise decision on the part of Turkey. And it's one that we shouldn't have asked them to fulfill. BLITZER: You may have seen this new commercial, this ad that Senator Kerry has put out showing the president landing on the aircraft carrier. But the impression he leaves is that he is someone who knows national security. He served in the military. He fought in Vietnam. He could bring the Democratic Party to victory. And it seems to be a slap at you.
DEAN: I think the principal problem with Senator Kerry's ad is, it implies that he didn't support the war in Iraq. And he did.
We wouldn't be in Iraq today if it hadn't been for people like Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards, Senator Lieberman, and Richard Gephardt, because they all supported the president, when they should have been asking the tough questions last October.
BLITZER: So you're blaming them for the predicament the U.S. is in right now?
DEAN: If the Democrats had stood up to the president and said, this is not wise. Let's take our steps very carefully. Let's bring in other countries.
But they didn't do that. They gave the president a blank check. And Senator Kerry was one of those who gave the president a blank check to go into Iraq. So I find it hard to believe that their foreign policy expertise is so extensive that they would be able to get us out of it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: More on my interview with Howard Dean in just a moment. He's still rethinking his controversial words about the Confederate flag. We'll have that.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Governor Howard Dean has said a couple of times that he's taking buckshot in his rear end from all of the attacks coming from his Democratic opponents. That, of course, hasn't stop the pro- hunting candidate from taking a couple shots himself.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Governor, a lot of pundits say you're the front-runner right now for the Democratic presidential nomination. And there's a debate over who is your main opponent right now. Who do you fear most capturing the Democratic nomination?
DEAN: I'm not worried about that.
If I'm the front-runner, I can tell, because I'm picking the buckshot out of my rear end every single day. I'm running this race to beat George Bush. And I'm sure we're going to have plenty of fireworks among the Democrats on the way to doing that. But the goal is to beat George Bush. He is the most dangerous president in this country's -- in terms of this country's security, we've had in my lifetime. He has hurt the economy more than any other president in my lifetime, with these enormous deficits. We cannot afford four more years of George Bush in this country.
BLITZER: But, before you get to that point, you have to beat the Democratic candidates, the other eight Democratic candidates. Who's your biggest challenger?
DEAN: I don't know. That's up to the voters to find out.
Even the fact that I'm the front-runner, supposedly, not a single vote has been cast here. And the last time I looked, the voters still have the say over who we're going to nominate. So...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: I was going to say, in Iowa, Gephardt seems to be doing very well. He won in '88. But you have managed to get these union endorsements, these two major unions. How significant is that?
DEAN: I think what people need and people want in the Democratic Party is new leadership.
The people I'm running against, for the most part, have been there for a long, long time. We've seen the Democratic Party decline under Dick Gephardt's leadership and John Kerry and Joe Lieberman and so forth. We need new leadership from outside Washington in order to beat George Bush.
BLITZER: General Clark is new leadership.
DEAN: He is. That's true. And we don't know a lot about him. And I guess we'll learn more as time goes on.
BLITZER: You told me a few months ago that you would seriously consider him as your running mate.
DEAN: I think that's true. He would be, certainly, on anybody's short list. He certainly has the ability to do that.
I think he needs to clear up questions about where he stood on the war. He claims vigorously now that he opposed the war. But the fact is that he had said last -- the previous October, advising a congressional candidate, advised her to support it, wrote favorably about -- that we needed to go in. He needs to square those statements with the American people.
But he's certainly capable and he has an excellent resume. And we'll see how he does in the primaries.
BLITZER: Is he still on your short list as a potential running mate?
DEAN: Well, to say that I have a short list would be a little presumptuous. BLITZER: But is he still someone you would consider?
DEAN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Many of the people who are running today are excellent people. And, as I have said before, if I don't win this nomination, I will very vigorously support the person who does win the nomination.
BLITZER: Besides General Clark, any other of the Democratic candidates on your potential list for running mate?
DEAN: Yes, but we're not going to go through a list, because I don't have a right to make a list like that yet. I have not one single vote yet in the primary. None of us have. And the voters get to choose who is going to be the nominee, not me.
BLITZER: It would be a little arrogant, is that what you're saying?
DEAN: Yes, it would.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: Well, let's talk about the campaign financing that you're going through.
A lot of people are suggesting, including Congressman Gephardt -- I interviewed him over the weekend -- that this is a big mistake, for you to abandon this campaign finance reform and just go out and raise as much money as you can.
DEAN: Well, we're raising the money in small donations. We raised three times as much as every other Democrat in the race last time. But we did it by getting 200,000 people to give us an average of $77 apiece.
BLITZER: But what's the message it sends to McCain-Feingold that you're going to basically abandon the procedures that all the other Democrats have accepted in recent years?
DEAN: The message it sends, that, if the president of the United States raises $200 million from every corporate magnate in America, you can't beat him if you're limited to spending $45 million. We're trying to get two million people to give us $100 each to send George Bush back to Crawford, Texas. And I think we're going to do that.
BLITZER: Arguably, your biggest campaign supporter, fund-raising supporter, right now is George Soros, who is devoting $15.5 million of his own money to beat George Bush, to get him out of the White House. In effect, he becomes your biggest supporter.
DEAN: Well, not really.
I have nothing to do -- he wrote us a $2,000 check, but he can't give us $15 million. He's going to do what he wants to do, just as there are many people on the president's side who will do what they want to do. BLITZER: But do you feel comfortable with him doing this, because it seems to be skirting the ban on so-called soft money, which was supposed to be eliminated from the political process?
DEAN: If I could do anything I wanted and have campaign finance reform, here's what I would do. I would have small donations allowed, $100 or less. I would have public financing of everybody's campaign. And I would limit people's spending, so nobody could go outside the public financing system.
And I would have instant run-off voting, so, when you had more candidates than just two, the person with the most votes would win. Now, that's what I would like to do. I believe in campaign finance reform. But I don't believe in campaign finance reform that gives a significant advantage to the Republican Party. And that's what we have now.
BLITZER: Is the issue of the Confederate flag, is that behind you now? Any final thoughts on that?
DEAN: Well, it is and it isn't.
Having to do it all over again, I wouldn't use the Confederate flag, because it is such a divisive symbol. But the key underlying issues are not dead. They are an essential part of my campaign. We need to bring Southern whites into the Democratic Party or we're not going to win elections in the South anymore. And we're not going to abandon the South. And I'm certainly not going to abandon the South.
Secondly, we need to have a discussion about race in this country. In "The Wall Street Journal" three or four weeks ago, there was a study that showed, if you're white with a criminal conviction, you have a better chance of getting a job interview than if you're African-American with a clean record. As long as that kind of thing goes on in America, we need to openly have a dialogue about race.
BLITZER: Governor Dean, thanks for joining us.
DEAN: Thanks, Wolf.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a special place where all kids are given the chance to be normal.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: By the time any child reaches adolescence, the idea of fitting in with your peers is more important than almost anything else, which is why this next story interested us so much. It takes place in Somers, New York, about 50 miles north of New York City. It's a story about some kids who, anywhere else, might never fit in and what people in Somers have done to make sure they do.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Parents, teachers and students in Somers, New York, have worked hard to make a group of seven mentally disabled kids feel normal.
DANIELLE ROWE, STUDENT: They do band with us. And they're progressing very nicely. They help the band out. And it's fun for them and fun for us to see that they can do these things, too.
BLITZER: Every student can play. And that means the drums, soccer or football. One player even made "The New York Times" sports section, when his teammates helped him score a touchdown.
KATY FAIVRE, SPECIAL EDUCATION TEACHER: There's big things and there's little things, little things like, the bell rings, they go to their lockers, traveling in the middle of 200 or 300 people in the hallways from class-to-class and managing the building.
BLITZER: Not only has Mr. Faivre's class managed the building, but they have won the hearts of teachers and the friendship of their peers.
J.T. TUOSTO, STUDENT: It's just really nice that they get to hang out with all the other kids and they get treated well, because everyone knows that they have difficulties.
ALEXANDRA ROSSI, STUDENT: They play with everyone. There's really nothing different about them.
Let's start with our long vowels.
BLITZER: While children with disabilities are required by federal law to be provided a free and appropriate education, special- education children rarely get to play such an active role in general- education programs. The open approach taken by the Somers district exists today because of open-minded district administrators, determined parents.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nice job, guys.
BLITZER: And a seemingly unrelenting teacher.
LESLIE STEIN, PARENT OF SPECIAL EDUCATION STUDENT: It's just wonderful for them to be part of their community, like every other child who lives in Somers is. And, to me, that was the most important thing, keeping Adam in his school district, so he can grow up with the kids who live in the neighborhood.
BLITZER: This eighth-grade class has traveled together into the middle school and next fall will move on to high school.
FAIVRE: Our expectations are very high for these guys. And they carry themselves that way. They carry themselves, knowing that they are very proud of what they do. They're very proud of their accomplishments. They work really hard all day. It's a long school day. BLITZER: A long day full of rewards, not just for the students, but the parents as well.
MARGARET BRESCHIA, PARENT OF SPECIAL EDUCATION STUDENT: They are given so much respect. And they are helped when they need help. But I think that the general-ed children have learned so much from our children. And they're friends. They are genuinely friends. And that is so important for everyone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Good for them.
Up next, we'll update our top story and preview tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Before we say good night, a quick update on our top story, Iraq and some major developments on the ground there, first, stepped-up operations on the part of American forces, who conducted airstrikes today on suspected militants and staging areas, this coming quick on the heels of a suicide bombing attack in the Southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah, the bombers targeting Italian forces patrolling the city.
At least 17 Italians died, as did eight Iraqis. Italy's prime minister today promised to stay the course -- more from Iraq tomorrow.
Also on the program tomorrow, they say everybody has a story. Tomorrow, we'll tell you about a project that gives people of all stripes a chance to tell theirs. It's a story in itself.
Also tomorrow, we'll talk with 9/11 Commission member, former Senator Max Cleland, who says he's disgusted by a deal that's been struck with the White House over the release of sensitive records. He'll tell us why.
That's NEWSNIGHT for tonight. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Up next for those of you in the United States, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT." And for our international viewers, "World News" is next.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. Good night.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired November 12, 2003 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening once again from Washington.
A lot going on right now, both in Iraq, as well as here in the nation's capital. American forces today dramatically stepped up activity against suspected insurgents. And, once again, today, the insurgents struck hard.
As a backdrop to it all, a CIA report concluding that support for the insurgency is growing and along with it, the challenge to the White House, the troops and the president's top man in Iraq, who headed back to Baghdad with a new set of marching orders. So Iraq, in all its dangerous complexity, once again begins the program and "The Whip."
And "The Whip" begins over at the Pentagon with CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, a headline, please.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, for some time, we've known that the ground combat phase of this war is far from over. But over the past couple of days, we've learned that the air war is back as well. I'll tell you the strategy behind it.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Jamie.
Next to Iraq and an especially bloody day there. CNN's Matthew Chance with the duty tonight.
Matthew, a headline from you.
MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, thanks, Wolf.
Well, amid that apparent toughening of U.S. strategy towards the insurgents, another 26 people were killed today in the southern Iraqi town of Nasiriyah by a suspected suicide bomber. This time, it was the Italian coalition forces who were targeted; 16 of their military personnel lost their lives -- Wolf.
BLITZER: ... back to you.
Let's move on to the White House, though, CNN's Dana Bash standing by.
Dana, the headline there. DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Wolf, after a second day of intense meetings here in the White House Situation Room, President Bush is sending Iraq's civil administrator back to Baghdad. He's got a list of options to speed up the political transition. It's a shift in Bush policy -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Dana.
From CNN's Jonathan Karl, at the beginning of what's going to be a very, very long night in the U.S. Senate.
Jon, the headline.
JONATHAN KARL, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Wolf, we are now in hour five of a 30-hour marathon that will feature lots and lots of talk, plenty of political theater. but, at the end of it all, not much is expected to change.
BLITZER: Thanks very much, Jon.
Back to all of you and the rest coming up shortly.
Also, tonight on NEWSNIGHT, the end of the Rosie O'Donnell lawsuit and a surprising decision by the judge.
A huge endorsement today for Howard Dean by two unions. I sat down with the Democratic presidential candidate for an interview right after that announcement. You might be surprised to hear which of his Democratic rivals he likes as a potential vice presidential running mate.
And in segment seven, we will visit a town where being special means being treated just like everyone else -- all that to come in the coming hour.
First, though, the hard work of turning things around in Iraq, a double-barreled effort centering on speeding up the formation of some kind of legitimate Iraqi government and stepping up the fight against insurgents.
The military side the story first and our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE (voice-over): The air war is back. A U.S. Air Force AC-130 gun ship like this one, with a powerful side-mounted 105- millimeter Howitzer, was used to level a warehouse in southern Baghdad Wednesday night. It's said to be used as a base by anti-U.S. insurgents. It's the latest example of how the U.S. military is using precision air strikes to ratchet up the pace and intensity of its counter-insurgency campaign.
LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ, U.S. COALITION COMMANDER: We are taking the fight into the safe havens of the enemy in the heartland of the country where we continue to face former regime loyalists, criminals and foreign terrorists.
MCINTYRE: Monday night, U.S. F-16s dropped 2,000-pound bombs on an empty house south of the Iraqi capital after local residents were warned to stay clear. The stated purpose for destroying the suspected hideout was to deny sanctuary to the anti-coalition insurgents. And there were similar U.S. air strikes to demolish structures near Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit Friday and Saturday.
Pentagon sources say the stepped-up pace of attacks in recent days is also a result of better intelligence coming from local Iraqis who are supporting the U.S.
COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: We are confident that our commanders will get on top of it and our intelligence experts will be able to penetrate these remnants of the old regime who were trying to destroy the hopes and aspirations of the Iraqi people.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MCINTYRE: And there's another aspect to the reintroduction of airpower into the Iraq war, and that's the message that they send. U.S. commanders are well aware that they have been losing the battle of perception to the insurgents. And these airstrikes show the power and reach of the U.S. military, show that it, too, can strike with impunity -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Jamie, any indication there is any disconnect, as far as you can tell, between the military side of the Pentagon, as opposed to the civilian political leadership? As both of us know from covering that building for a long time, there often is.
MCINTYRE: Well, it's hard to tell.
Clearly, there's both concern that the Iraqi Governing Council move forward at a faster pace. And there's also frustration that they haven't been able to make better progress in turning the corner in the fight against the insurgents. Of course, one key thing that would really help would be to capture or kill Saddam Hussein. But he still remains a very elusive prey.
BLITZER: CNN's Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon -- thanks very much, Jamie, for that.
Today's airstrikes came not long after one of the deadliest and most daring attacks yet on allied forces, in this case in a location relatively quiet, at least until now -- the motivation, apparently to spread the pain of occupation to those who came to help. At least 26 people were killed, the vast majority of them Italian military police.
Here, once again, CNN's Matthew Chance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE (voice-over): This is one of the deadliest attacks on coalition troops since major combat was declared over. Eyewitnesses spoke of a truck ramming the gates of the Italian compound moments before the blast.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator): A car came, a fuel tanker. There were two people were in it. The Italians opened fire, then both sides began to shoot. They went inside, and then there was an explosion.
CHANCE: The bomb ripped through the entire front of this three- story building. Soldiers scrambled through the rubble to find survivors.
In this relatively placid area of southern Iraq, it seems coalition forces are now ruthlessly targeted.
How to curb the violence and speed up the political process is the challenge for Paul Bremer. And the need for a plan appears urgent. With the attack on the Italians, more than 50 coalition troops have been killed so far this month, in an insurgency even U.S. officials acknowledge could get worse.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE: Well, Wolf, those statistics speaking for themselves.
Out of that 50 or so coalition forces that have been killed, 40 have been U.S. troops. Add to that the Italians who were killed today in Nasiriyah and a Polish officer who was killed last week. And despite what the coalition may say about security on the ground here in Iraq, it's clearly an extremely dangerous place, both for Iraqi civilians and coalition forces.
BLITZER: Those coalition forces, Matthew, any indication they're getting jittery, may have some second thoughts about cooperating with the U.S. and may simply want to pick up and leave?
CHANCE: Well, certainly, that would be the kind of message that the people who perpetrated this latest attack in Nasiriyah may want to convey to the various countries who are considering joining the U.S.- led coalition and providing troops to carry out these duties in areas of Iraq.
Certainly, there have been calls from the Iraq -- the Italian government for -- Italian opposition figures, rather -- for their troops to be withdrawn. At the same time, all those troops on the ground, all the governments have come together again, saying they won't be deterred from their objective, which is to bring democracy to this country.
BLITZER: CNN's Matthew Chance on duty for us in Baghdad once again -- Matthew, thank you very much.
Next to the White House and the footrace between, for want of a better phrase, nation-building and nation-wrecking. With the bad guys doing their work and perhaps a greater number of ordinary Iraqis supporting or at least tolerating them, a window of opportunity appears to be closing, perhaps very rapidly. That explains the emergency meetings under way earlier today over at the White House. Here again, CNN's Dana Bash.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BASH (voice-over): After two days of White House talks, President Bush is sending his Iraq administrator back to Baghdad with a proposed shift in U.S. strategy to turn governing power over to Iraqis more quickly.
PAUL BREMER, IRAQ CIVIL ADMINISTRATOR: The stakes are very high for moving toward a sovereign Iraqi government.
BASH: According to senior U.S. official, the president authorized a few major options for the U. S. -picked Iraqi Governing Council to consider, including an interim Iraqi constitution and interim Iraqi leadership. Another possibility, a provisional leader like Afghanistan's Hamid Karzai. But U.S. officials caution Iraqis may not accept that model as legitimate because of the country's diverse ethnic and religious makeup, and also say there is no specific timetable for the plan. During the fall U.N. debate, the White House strongly opposed any return of control to Iraqis without free elections.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The constitution must be written, and there will be free elections. And then sovereignty will occur.
BASH: Now a White House concession.
SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: You need to be willing to adjust and adapt to circumstances on the ground in terms of reconstruction and in terms of the political front.
BASH: This adjustment is fueled by increasing attacks against coalition targets and a new grim CIA assessment more Iraqis disillusioned with the U. S. -led occupation are joining the insurgency.
BREMER: The terrorists are trying to encourage the Iraqi people to believe that the United States is not going to stay the course.
BASH: Officials admit the urgent White House push is also aimed at the slow-moving Iraqi Governing Council to meet a December 15 deadline for a permanent transition plan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BASH: And Bush officials say they were intentionally vague about the details of the plan until the governing council is briefed, hoping that Iraqis see their own leaders determining the future of their government and not the White House -- Wolf.
BLITZER: Dana, correct me if I'm wrong, but this latest option, some of these options that Ambassador Bremer is going back to Baghdad with for an interim government, if you will, an interim, temporary constitution, they sound sort of similar to what the French and the Germans have been proposing for some time.
BASH: Well, Wolf, it would not be surprising to hear some I- told-you-so's tonight in Paris and in Berlin.
But in the fall, the White House really thought that the most important thing was not to rush it, was to get a permanent constitution, followed by elections, that that would be the only way for a legitimate government. But now, as one senior official said to me earlier today, they are getting attacked from all sides. Everybody -- or a lot of people are trying to undermine their effort. And there's a growing insurgency to do that. That is why they feel like they need to give more power to the Iraqi people more quickly in order to help stop that -- Wolf.
BLITZER: CNN's Dana Bash over at the White House -- Dana, thank you very much.
When President Bush, in the 2000 campaign, expressed his doubts about the whole idea of nation-building, he had no way of knowing he would one day be presiding over one of most ambitious bits of nation- building in recent history. But these things do happen.
And we want to get a better idea of what lies ahead for the president, for Ambassador Bremer, most important, perhaps, for the U.S. troops serving over there.
With us tonight in New York is Noah Feldman, who served as a senior adviser to the coalition provisional authority on constitutional law. We're pleased to have him on the program.
Noah, thank you very much for joining us.
So what do you make of these new options that Ambassador Bremer is taking back to the Iraqis?
NOAH FELDMAN, NEW YORK UNIVERSITY LAW SCHOOL: Some that make a lot of sense.
One good possibility is actually holding an election to select people to write a constitution. Other options, though, have been suggested before, like trying to hand the country over to one leader whom we appoint, on the Hamid Karzai model. And the same reasons for not adopting them before apply now. Namely, that there is no one individual who could acquire the trust of the Iraqi people and not seem like our puppet.
And since our main goal is to show the Iraqis that they are in charge of their own government, that would, I think, send really the wrong message.
BLITZER: And hovering over all of is, what, this mid-December deadline for the U.S. to report back to the U.N. Security Council on something. How important is that?
FELDMAN: If we don't meet that deadline and if the governing council doesn't meet that deadline, that's going to send a message that the political track is off-kilter in Iraq, the same way that the security track is off-kilter.
But we should be realistic about this, because the bottom line is that the war is still going on. We thought the war was over and now was the mop-up, but that just wasn't accurate. The first part of the war went well. And now we're in the second part of the war. It's not going as well. And to expect the Iraqis of the governing council or anybody else to push forward rapidly to political solutions while they're still in danger of being shot at and are regularly shot at on the streets, both by opposition and then, mistakenly, on occasion, by our troops, is to really ask too much of them.
BLITZER: So what, realistically, should Ambassador Bremer be pushing for right now in his talks that are upcoming later in the next few days with the Iraqi leadership?
FELDMAN: Ambassador Bremer needs to push the governing council very quickly to state what they think is the best way to choose the members of the constitutional convention.
If that's by electing them, let the governing council say so. If it's by nominating them and then having them confirmed by a referendum, let the governing council say so. But, in all event, have a plan which they state publicly and quickly. And one of the effects of the meetings and of all the suggestions that you've just been mentioning is that they're sending a message. Our government is sending a message to the governing council, saying, look, it's time for you to step up to the plate and make some proposals.
And, if you don't, we're going to make some suggestions for you. And you may not like exactly what we suggest.
BLITZER: Bernard Lewis, the professor from Princeton, and James Woolsey, the former CIA director recently proposed, why not simply revive the old Iraqi constitution from the mid-1920s, at least as an interim step? Is that realistic?
FELDMAN: Well, you're talking about a great scholar and a man who has been a great public servant.
But they're proposing the creation of a monarchy. That is a constitution that centers on a king. And taking the king out of that constitution would be like having the American Constitution without the president in the middle of it. So, just between you and me and the audience, I don't think that's a great idea, because the United States came to establish democracy, not to establish a monarchy.
BLITZER: Is there any sense that you get that this administration, the Bush administration, is deeply divided right now on these very sensitive issues, namely, an interim Iraqi government and creating some sort of temporary constitution?
FELDMAN: I think the slow progress on the political front, which follows from the lousy progress on the security front, is leading people to go back to the drawing books and ask themselves what to do.
And a lot of people are falling back on ideas they had initially. So the people who said initially, let's hand it over to a one-man show are saying again, maybe we should have tried that in the first place. And the people who said initially, let's have an interim constitution, are saying that.
I think the smartest thing to do at stage is to communicate to the Iraqis that we are not changing course, but that we are speeding up, and that they need to name a process for writing a constitution, and that, if they do that, we can make the process happen quickly. We can get that constitutional convention convened, and we can start writing. And once that happens, we'll be on the right track politically. We'll still have to solve the security problems, though.
BLITZER: You said earlier there doesn't appear to be a Hamid Karzai, the Afghan leader, someone like that in Iraq. But what about Ahmad Chalabi? There are plenty of administration officials, especially over at the Pentagon, who think he's the guy.
FELDMAN: I haven't seen evidence thus far -- I didn't see it in Baghdad or I haven't seen it from outside the country -- that Ahmad Chalabi has the kind of broad support on the ground in Iraq that would make him a suitable person for a job like that.
But, of course, that's a judgment call. And, in the absence of rigorous statistics and polls, the best you can do is gather information from the people you speak to and from the intelligence sources you have access to.
BLITZER: One could argue that Hamid Karzai, there was scant evidence he had a whole lot of support outside of the area of Kabul.
FELDMAN: I think the truth is that Hamid Karzai still has scant support anywhere outside the area of Kabul.
In fact, he doesn't have much influence over the rest of the country. So we don't want that model to be the case in Iraq. If we appointed someone who only had power in Baghdad, or even worse, who had only power in the Republican palace in Baghdad, the presidential palace, then we would really be in a worse situation than we're in right now.
BLITZER: The insurgents seem to be not only stepping up their activity against the U.S. and the coalition, but they're becoming much more successful, the deadly nature of what they're doing driven home earlier today in Nasiriyah against the Italians, for example. How much of an impact are they having and how much of a window is there for the U.S. and its partners to get the job done?
FELDMAN: The insurgents create a problem, not only because they kill innocent Iraqis who are trying to help with the process of democratization, not only because they help -- they kill members of the coalition who are bravely fighting to try to deliver democracy to Iraqis, but also because they put the U.S. military and other militaries in Iraq on a defensive footing, where we're always worried about being attacked.
And, in turn, we have to retaliate by using violence. We have to shoot at cars if they don't stop at roadblocks. And, as a consequence, there are misunderstandings. And we're in a position where we may end up alienating Iraqis who otherwise would be on our side. So they're having an enormous impact.
They're also sending a message to people involved in the political process that they're not safe. And if they're not safe and can't be protected, they're going to be very unlikely to drive forward in the political process, the way we need them to do right now.
BLITZER: Noah Feldman of New York University Law School, thanks very much for joining us.
FELDMAN: Thank you very much for having me.
BLITZER: And just ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the Rosie O'Donnell trial, it comes to a close with a surprising ruling from the bench. We'll have the details.
And I'll also have an extended interview with the Democratic presidential front-runner, Howard Dean. What he has to say about President Bush, I can tell you right now, is not very pretty.
This is NEWSNIGHT from Washington.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: A headline on "The Washington Post" Web site this evening says it quite simply: "No Winner in Rosie Case," no $100 million judgment against Rosie O'Donnell, no $125 million judgment against the company that published her magazine, until the two sides had a falling-out. But if the headline said it simply, the judge today said it first. And it came as something of a surprise to almost everyone concerned.
From New York, here is CNN's Mary Snow.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MARY SNOW, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): After 7 1/2 days of testimony about the fireworks behind the scenes at "Rosie" magazine, the end of the trial took a turn that neither side seemed to expect. Judge Ira Gammerman called publisher Gruner & Jahr's $100 million lawsuit against Rosie O'Donnell ill-conceived, saying neither side proved damages beyond legal fees. And he said the magazine wasn't even profitable.
Both sides, he said, seemed to be looking for bragging rights. Rosie O'Donnell left court saying she's glad it's over.
ROSIE O'DONNELL, COMEDIAN: The story of this case is not who won or lost, but simply how many times peace was offered and war was chosen by the other side. We can have peace in this world. We can have peace with each other.
SNOW: The judge's conclusions are not final. He still must decide whether Rosie O'Donnell or Gruner & Jahr breached the contract that led to the demise of "Rosie" magazine. O'Donnell claimed that G & J breached it by seizing editorial control. G & J claims O'Donnell breached it by leaving in what executives called a fit of tantrum. Rosie O'Donnell's lawyers were careful to stop short of declaring victory.
MATTHEW FISHBEIN, O'DONNELL'S LAWYER: Whenever you're sued for $100 million and you walk out of the courtroom with the judge basically telling you you're not going to have to pay a penny, it's hard to get any better than that.
SNOW: Lawyers for Gruner & Jahr disagree.
MARTY HYMAN, PUBLISHER'S LAWYER: Gruner & Jahr believed at the inception of the lawsuit and believes today that Rosie O'Donnell breached the contract. Gruner & Jahr did not enter into this joint venture with the expectation to lose money or not make money. And the fact that the judge has expressed doubts as to whether or not "Rosie" magazine ultimately would have made money down the road does not render the lawsuit to be an ill-conceived lawsuit.
SNOW (on camera): Rosie O'Donnell wants reimbursement for her legal fees, $8 million so far. That's $2 million more than she invested in the magazine in the first place.
Mary Snow, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: More courtroom news begins our look at some of the other stories making news today.
First, the sniper trial of John Muhammad, two developments there. After calling just five witnesses for a grand total of two hours worth of testimony, the defense rested. Also today, the judge refused to take the death penalty off the table, despite scant evidence that defendant Muhammad himself was the triggerman. With jurors out of the room, Judge LeRoy Millette told council "They," meaning Muhammad and Lee Malvo, "were a single unit. They perfected their ability to shoot people," he said. "They perfected their ability to escape."
Florida next, where Stephen Jordi made his first court appearance today. He is charged in connection with an alleged plot to bomb abortion clinics north of the Miami-Dade area. FBI agents nabbed him yesterday in a dramatic arrest. He jumped from a boat trying to get away, but they got him just the same.
And in Northern California, memorial services today for Steven Rucker. Mr. Rucker, you may recall, was the only firefighter to die battling the wildfires around San Diego. Governor-elect Arnold Schwarzenegger was there. So was Governor Gray Davis. So was Mr. Rucker's wife and two children, ages 7 and 2. And our condolences to them.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, late night with the U.S. Senate, as the debate over judicial nominees goes into overtime. They're meeting right now. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: It goes without saying, U.S. senators are fond of talking. After all, it isn't called the world's most distinguished debating society for nothing. And the rules of the Senate essentially allow unlimited debate, unless you have got the votes to stop it, something the Republican majority doesn't have when it comes to the debate tying up a number of President Bush's federal court nominees.
So, minus the votes to stop a filibuster, Republicans tonight are fighting right back with a filibuster of sorts of their own.
Here's CNN's Jonathan Karl.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (voice-over): In a show of force, Republicans marched to the Senate floor to protest Democratic efforts to stymie the president's judicial nominations. They also rolled in the cots, just in case senators need to take a nap as the gabfest goes on through the night Wednesday, all day Thursday, before finally ending early Friday morning.
What's the point of all this talk? Republicans say they're defending the Constitution.
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: There's never a good time to hijack the Constitution for political reasons. But the worst time is when you're at war and you have got nine million people unemployed.
KARL: The complaint centers on the president's nominees to the circuit courts, the courts just below the Supreme Court. Democrats have blocked four nominees, all of whom have the support of more than 50 senators. And they have threatened to prevent at least another two nominees from coming up for a vote.
And how can Democrats do that? Under Senate rules, they can prevent a vote with a filibuster, which takes 60 votes to defeat.
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: If they want to vote against these people, that's their right. But they need to have an up-or-down vote. Why are they afraid of a line -- simple up-and-down votes in the case of these excellent nominees?
KARL: Democrats say they've approved 168 of the president's nominees and blocked only four.
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D), VERMONT: We confirmed 98 percent of President Bush's judges and all we got was this lousy T-shirt.
KARL: The few they have blocked, Democrats say, are simply too extreme and too conservative.
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: People who are getting life appointments should not be extremists, should not be out of the mainstream.
KARL: The debate will go on and on and on for 30 hours or more. But, at the end, nothing is expected to change. Democrats have the votes to block the nominees they don't like, and don't intend to back down. Maybe that's why one Democratic senator showed up with a sign of protest, declaring his intention to go home and watch TV instead.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not taking part in this circus.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: Democrats say that, while Republicans complain about how they are treating President Bush's nominees, back when President Clinton was in the White House, Democrats say, the Republicans treated his nominees in much the same way. Republicans say, oh, no, this is a whole new level. So what comes around goes around. That's what much of the debate is going to be about all night, all day tomorrow, and much of tomorrow night -- Wolf.
BLITZER: So, John, if nothing is going to change, if this is all political theater, what is the point?
KARL: Well, there is some political theater here. Republicans are trying to make a point, make a point to their conservative base. Many conservatives have complained that Republicans have not fought enough for some of the president's nominees that have been blocked by Democrats.
So, by doing this for 30 hours straight, they're telling those conservative activists that, yes they are taking this fight as far as they can. They are fighting for those nominees that have been blocked.
BLITZER: All right, so there is a point after all. Thanks very much, Jonathan Karl, for that. And I hope you don't necessarily have to spend the whole night on a cot...
KARL: We'll see.
BLITZER: ... over there in the Senate tonight, but we'll see.
KARL: Thanks.
BLITZER: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, my extended interview with Democratic presidential candidate Howard Dean. He's the front-runner for his party's nomination, at least right now. He has got some thoughts about selecting a running mate. Here's a clue: Think four stars.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: And still to come on NEWSNIGHT, my extended interview with the man who is taking the Democratic presidential race by storm.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BLITZER: New Hampshire and Iowa and South Carolina may be targets in the race to win the Democratic Party, but there are some other keys to victory that you can't find on a map. Support from labor unions is one.
Today, former Vermont Governor and Democratic presidential hopeful Howard Dean won the endorsement of two major labor unions, AFSCME, or the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees, and the SEIU, the Service Employees International Union. With this newest feather in his cap, Governor Dean joined us for a conversation this afternoon.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Governor Dean, thanks so much for joining us.
Let's get right to the issue at hand, Iraq right now. There seems to have been a dramatic turn as we speak, with U.S. forces going on the attack against a target in Baghdad. What do you make of what's going on?
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Well, I think the U.S. has to defend itself against the forces of, likely, al Qaeda or Saddam loyalists.
Of course, there were no al Qaeda in Iraq before we invaded. Now there are. So I think the president has, because of his policies, made Iraq into a far more dangerous place to the United States than it ever was when Saddam Hussein was ruling it.
BLITZER: The administration says there was al Qaeda in Iraq before the invasion, in the form of Ansar al-Islam up in the northern part of the country, and that there were some al Qaeda operatives even in Baghdad.
DEAN: Well, there's not -- first of all, there is not great evidence for that that's been discussed in the press.
Secondly of all, Ansar al-Islam was a group that was harassing Iran. And there was some question about whether the United States was, in some way, tacitly supporting them. So I don't think it's quite proper to call them al Qaeda, in the same sense that al Qaeda existed in Afghanistan and killed 3,000 of our people at the World Trade Center.
BLITZER: If you were president of the United States right now, what would you do to resolve this Iraq situation?
DEAN: We need to bring foreign troops into Iraq, preferably from Arabic-speaking and Muslim countries.
George Bush's father, who was a much better diplomat than the president is, had over 100,000 troops in Iraq the first time we went in, which I supported, incidentally. We need to bring troops from Muslim countries into Iraq to help reconstruct Iraq. That should be an international...
BLITZER: But they don't want to go. The U.S. has offered -- invited them. Even the Turks decided, this is not a good idea.
DEAN: Well, the Turks should not have been asked to go in the first place. The idea of Turks patrolling in Iraq, historically, is an incredibly foolish idea. And I'm incredibly disappointed that someone at the State Department didn't figure that out before we asked them to go.
This president will never get the cooperation of the rest of the world. He has alienated practically everybody that's worth alienating in this country. It's a personal matter. He has some part of his personality which leads him to humiliate people who disagree with on policy matter.
BLITZER: So, how would you get Arabic-speaking and Muslim nations to get involved? What would you do?
DEAN: If I become president, before I'm inaugurated, I will go to Europe and I will go to other capitals around the world where the president has gone out of his way to humiliate and ruin our relationships, and to begin to rekindle those relationships.
These relationships can be fixed. We just need a new president to do it, someone without the baggage of this president. We will have, I think, the opportunity to have other troops in Iraq from other countries. Egypt, Morocco, Pakistan, Indonesia, India, which has a substantial Muslim population, as you know, those are the kinds of countries we need help from.
Unfortunately, we will not be able to stop paying the bill. This president has committed us to $87 billion on our credit card every single year for the foreseeable future, until this is straightened out.
BLITZER: General Wesley Clark says, bring NATO in, let NATO take charge, fire Ambassador Paul Bremer as the chief civilian administrator, and, on the political front, let the United Nations take charge. Is General Clark right?
DEAN: Well, I think the United Nations would be the group under which the troops served, barring American troops, because, of course, American troops have never been commanded by anybody that wasn't American.
But I think having the U.N. play a major role in the reconstruction of Iraq is the right thing to do.
BLITZER: What about NATO?
DEAN: NATO is fine. But, remember, most NATO countries are not Muslim countries, other than Turkey. And I think the Turks do not belong in Iraq. I think that was a wise decision on the part of Turkey. And it's one that we shouldn't have asked them to fulfill. BLITZER: You may have seen this new commercial, this ad that Senator Kerry has put out showing the president landing on the aircraft carrier. But the impression he leaves is that he is someone who knows national security. He served in the military. He fought in Vietnam. He could bring the Democratic Party to victory. And it seems to be a slap at you.
DEAN: I think the principal problem with Senator Kerry's ad is, it implies that he didn't support the war in Iraq. And he did.
We wouldn't be in Iraq today if it hadn't been for people like Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards, Senator Lieberman, and Richard Gephardt, because they all supported the president, when they should have been asking the tough questions last October.
BLITZER: So you're blaming them for the predicament the U.S. is in right now?
DEAN: If the Democrats had stood up to the president and said, this is not wise. Let's take our steps very carefully. Let's bring in other countries.
But they didn't do that. They gave the president a blank check. And Senator Kerry was one of those who gave the president a blank check to go into Iraq. So I find it hard to believe that their foreign policy expertise is so extensive that they would be able to get us out of it.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: More on my interview with Howard Dean in just a moment. He's still rethinking his controversial words about the Confederate flag. We'll have that.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Governor Howard Dean has said a couple of times that he's taking buckshot in his rear end from all of the attacks coming from his Democratic opponents. That, of course, hasn't stop the pro- hunting candidate from taking a couple shots himself.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Governor, a lot of pundits say you're the front-runner right now for the Democratic presidential nomination. And there's a debate over who is your main opponent right now. Who do you fear most capturing the Democratic nomination?
DEAN: I'm not worried about that.
If I'm the front-runner, I can tell, because I'm picking the buckshot out of my rear end every single day. I'm running this race to beat George Bush. And I'm sure we're going to have plenty of fireworks among the Democrats on the way to doing that. But the goal is to beat George Bush. He is the most dangerous president in this country's -- in terms of this country's security, we've had in my lifetime. He has hurt the economy more than any other president in my lifetime, with these enormous deficits. We cannot afford four more years of George Bush in this country.
BLITZER: But, before you get to that point, you have to beat the Democratic candidates, the other eight Democratic candidates. Who's your biggest challenger?
DEAN: I don't know. That's up to the voters to find out.
Even the fact that I'm the front-runner, supposedly, not a single vote has been cast here. And the last time I looked, the voters still have the say over who we're going to nominate. So...
(CROSSTALK)
BLITZER: I was going to say, in Iowa, Gephardt seems to be doing very well. He won in '88. But you have managed to get these union endorsements, these two major unions. How significant is that?
DEAN: I think what people need and people want in the Democratic Party is new leadership.
The people I'm running against, for the most part, have been there for a long, long time. We've seen the Democratic Party decline under Dick Gephardt's leadership and John Kerry and Joe Lieberman and so forth. We need new leadership from outside Washington in order to beat George Bush.
BLITZER: General Clark is new leadership.
DEAN: He is. That's true. And we don't know a lot about him. And I guess we'll learn more as time goes on.
BLITZER: You told me a few months ago that you would seriously consider him as your running mate.
DEAN: I think that's true. He would be, certainly, on anybody's short list. He certainly has the ability to do that.
I think he needs to clear up questions about where he stood on the war. He claims vigorously now that he opposed the war. But the fact is that he had said last -- the previous October, advising a congressional candidate, advised her to support it, wrote favorably about -- that we needed to go in. He needs to square those statements with the American people.
But he's certainly capable and he has an excellent resume. And we'll see how he does in the primaries.
BLITZER: Is he still on your short list as a potential running mate?
DEAN: Well, to say that I have a short list would be a little presumptuous. BLITZER: But is he still someone you would consider?
DEAN: Absolutely. Absolutely. Many of the people who are running today are excellent people. And, as I have said before, if I don't win this nomination, I will very vigorously support the person who does win the nomination.
BLITZER: Besides General Clark, any other of the Democratic candidates on your potential list for running mate?
DEAN: Yes, but we're not going to go through a list, because I don't have a right to make a list like that yet. I have not one single vote yet in the primary. None of us have. And the voters get to choose who is going to be the nominee, not me.
BLITZER: It would be a little arrogant, is that what you're saying?
DEAN: Yes, it would.
(LAUGHTER)
BLITZER: Well, let's talk about the campaign financing that you're going through.
A lot of people are suggesting, including Congressman Gephardt -- I interviewed him over the weekend -- that this is a big mistake, for you to abandon this campaign finance reform and just go out and raise as much money as you can.
DEAN: Well, we're raising the money in small donations. We raised three times as much as every other Democrat in the race last time. But we did it by getting 200,000 people to give us an average of $77 apiece.
BLITZER: But what's the message it sends to McCain-Feingold that you're going to basically abandon the procedures that all the other Democrats have accepted in recent years?
DEAN: The message it sends, that, if the president of the United States raises $200 million from every corporate magnate in America, you can't beat him if you're limited to spending $45 million. We're trying to get two million people to give us $100 each to send George Bush back to Crawford, Texas. And I think we're going to do that.
BLITZER: Arguably, your biggest campaign supporter, fund-raising supporter, right now is George Soros, who is devoting $15.5 million of his own money to beat George Bush, to get him out of the White House. In effect, he becomes your biggest supporter.
DEAN: Well, not really.
I have nothing to do -- he wrote us a $2,000 check, but he can't give us $15 million. He's going to do what he wants to do, just as there are many people on the president's side who will do what they want to do. BLITZER: But do you feel comfortable with him doing this, because it seems to be skirting the ban on so-called soft money, which was supposed to be eliminated from the political process?
DEAN: If I could do anything I wanted and have campaign finance reform, here's what I would do. I would have small donations allowed, $100 or less. I would have public financing of everybody's campaign. And I would limit people's spending, so nobody could go outside the public financing system.
And I would have instant run-off voting, so, when you had more candidates than just two, the person with the most votes would win. Now, that's what I would like to do. I believe in campaign finance reform. But I don't believe in campaign finance reform that gives a significant advantage to the Republican Party. And that's what we have now.
BLITZER: Is the issue of the Confederate flag, is that behind you now? Any final thoughts on that?
DEAN: Well, it is and it isn't.
Having to do it all over again, I wouldn't use the Confederate flag, because it is such a divisive symbol. But the key underlying issues are not dead. They are an essential part of my campaign. We need to bring Southern whites into the Democratic Party or we're not going to win elections in the South anymore. And we're not going to abandon the South. And I'm certainly not going to abandon the South.
Secondly, we need to have a discussion about race in this country. In "The Wall Street Journal" three or four weeks ago, there was a study that showed, if you're white with a criminal conviction, you have a better chance of getting a job interview than if you're African-American with a clean record. As long as that kind of thing goes on in America, we need to openly have a dialogue about race.
BLITZER: Governor Dean, thanks for joining us.
DEAN: Thanks, Wolf.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: And still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a special place where all kids are given the chance to be normal.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: By the time any child reaches adolescence, the idea of fitting in with your peers is more important than almost anything else, which is why this next story interested us so much. It takes place in Somers, New York, about 50 miles north of New York City. It's a story about some kids who, anywhere else, might never fit in and what people in Somers have done to make sure they do.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER (voice-over): Parents, teachers and students in Somers, New York, have worked hard to make a group of seven mentally disabled kids feel normal.
DANIELLE ROWE, STUDENT: They do band with us. And they're progressing very nicely. They help the band out. And it's fun for them and fun for us to see that they can do these things, too.
BLITZER: Every student can play. And that means the drums, soccer or football. One player even made "The New York Times" sports section, when his teammates helped him score a touchdown.
KATY FAIVRE, SPECIAL EDUCATION TEACHER: There's big things and there's little things, little things like, the bell rings, they go to their lockers, traveling in the middle of 200 or 300 people in the hallways from class-to-class and managing the building.
BLITZER: Not only has Mr. Faivre's class managed the building, but they have won the hearts of teachers and the friendship of their peers.
J.T. TUOSTO, STUDENT: It's just really nice that they get to hang out with all the other kids and they get treated well, because everyone knows that they have difficulties.
ALEXANDRA ROSSI, STUDENT: They play with everyone. There's really nothing different about them.
Let's start with our long vowels.
BLITZER: While children with disabilities are required by federal law to be provided a free and appropriate education, special- education children rarely get to play such an active role in general- education programs. The open approach taken by the Somers district exists today because of open-minded district administrators, determined parents.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Nice job, guys.
BLITZER: And a seemingly unrelenting teacher.
LESLIE STEIN, PARENT OF SPECIAL EDUCATION STUDENT: It's just wonderful for them to be part of their community, like every other child who lives in Somers is. And, to me, that was the most important thing, keeping Adam in his school district, so he can grow up with the kids who live in the neighborhood.
BLITZER: This eighth-grade class has traveled together into the middle school and next fall will move on to high school.
FAIVRE: Our expectations are very high for these guys. And they carry themselves that way. They carry themselves, knowing that they are very proud of what they do. They're very proud of their accomplishments. They work really hard all day. It's a long school day. BLITZER: A long day full of rewards, not just for the students, but the parents as well.
MARGARET BRESCHIA, PARENT OF SPECIAL EDUCATION STUDENT: They are given so much respect. And they are helped when they need help. But I think that the general-ed children have learned so much from our children. And they're friends. They are genuinely friends. And that is so important for everyone.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BLITZER: Good for them.
Up next, we'll update our top story and preview tomorrow.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BLITZER: Before we say good night, a quick update on our top story, Iraq and some major developments on the ground there, first, stepped-up operations on the part of American forces, who conducted airstrikes today on suspected militants and staging areas, this coming quick on the heels of a suicide bombing attack in the Southern Iraqi city of Nasiriyah, the bombers targeting Italian forces patrolling the city.
At least 17 Italians died, as did eight Iraqis. Italy's prime minister today promised to stay the course -- more from Iraq tomorrow.
Also on the program tomorrow, they say everybody has a story. Tomorrow, we'll tell you about a project that gives people of all stripes a chance to tell theirs. It's a story in itself.
Also tomorrow, we'll talk with 9/11 Commission member, former Senator Max Cleland, who says he's disgusted by a deal that's been struck with the White House over the release of sensitive records. He'll tell us why.
That's NEWSNIGHT for tonight. I'm Wolf Blitzer in Washington.
Up next for those of you in the United States, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT." And for our international viewers, "World News" is next.
I'm Wolf Blitzer. Good night.
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