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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Police Brutality or Self-Defense?; Civilians Suffer in Coalition Firefight; Captain Could be Dismissed for Sticking up for His Troops

Aired December 01, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
The proof is in pictures, goes the old saying. We wonder.

Two people, both honorable, could look at the same pictures out of Cincinnati tonight and see something entirely different.

To one it will be a simple case of police brutality, fueled no doubt by race. To the other, it will be a simple and clear case of self-defense.

A deranged man, a big man, who would not submit to virtual pleading by police.

The same pictures viewed differently in a city that knows racial tension and distrust of police more than most. It is our lead tonight and where we begin the whip.

CNN's Brian Cabell is in Cincinnati. Brian, a headline from you, please.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Cincinnati has a history of racial strife, and those concerns are being raised again. An African-American male died after fighting with police. Some are saying it was excessive force -- Aaron.

BROWN: Brian, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

Next, to Iraq and the firefight and the ambush and the questions raised. CNN's Nic Robertson has the watch. Nic, a headline from you tonight.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the biggest battle since major conflict ended in May. According to troops here, it surprised them in its complexity, size and scale. The townspeople of Samarra, where it took place, on the other hand, are very angry -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

To Rochester, New York, next and the reservist who won praise for taking care of his troops in Afghanistan only to be facing problems back at home. CNN's Deborah Feyerick has been working on that. Deb, the headline. DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a number of Army reserves are being asked to sign waivers getting them back into combat early. But when a captain stood up for them, he was accused of insubordination.

BROWN: Deb, thank you.

And finally, the Israeli-Palestinian question and the doubts of some important Israelis about their government's policy. CNN's Sheila MacVicar has been working on that. So Sheila, a headline.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, all of that as a new peace plan is signed in Geneva. Right wing rabbis have condemned those involved as traitors. And we'll ask the question whether or not this might push Prime Minister Sharon to make some new moves.

BROWN: Sheila, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight, we talk with Cincinnati's mayor, Charlie Luken, and a talk with John Burns, who has been doing some splendid reporting from Iraq for "The New York Times."

Also, what Magic Johnson did in this country, soccer stars are doing in Africa. It's World Aids Day, and we'll look at the fight against AIDS tonight.

Then, tanned and rested and happy he's not a turkey, the rooster crows again. Morning papers to start the week off right, or to end the program at least.

All of that to come in the hour ahead.

We begin in Cincinnati, where the basic facts are clear, even if their meaning is not.

man is dead. He died after an attempt by police to arrest and subdue him. He is dead after he resisted that arrest and after being hit many times with police batons.

Those facts are not dispute. What they mean in a city of serious and long-standing racial tension is quite another matter.

Here's CNN's Brian Cabell.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CABELL (voice-over): It started with a complaint from a restaurant employee. A very large man was acting strange outside.

Two police officers responded and immediately encountered 5'9", 350-pound Nathaniel Jones. A camera mounted on the police car recorded some of the confrontation. It was rolling as a fight ensued: Jones against two much smaller cops, armed with nightsticks and a chemical spray. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taking into consideration everything that we see on this tape here, it appears to be consistent with our training. These officers responded very well to an assault of person, a very large person, who clearly attacks them very violently.

CABELL: Eventually, backup for the officers arrive, and Jones was subdued. But police noticed he needed medical help. He was rushed to the hospital but died shortly afterwards. Now questions are being raised.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not trying to say that this gentleman was innocent. I don't know what the circumstances were. But I have seen the film. And the kind of beating that I observed would raise questions in anyone's mind.

CABELL: The coroner, who hasn't yet determined Jones' cause of death, does report he had cardiac problems and at least traces of PCP and cocaine in his system.

Racial violence exploded in Cincinnati two years ago after a 19- year-old African-American man was shot to death by police. Many blacks say that's been a pattern here. Black men harassed, sometimes killed by police using undue force. In fact, after disturbances, the city paid out $4.5 million in settlements to blacks for excessive police force.

In the last couple of years, with a federal judge overseeing reconciliation between the police and the black community, racial tensions had eased, at least until Sunday morning.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABELL: A couple of points here. Some are saying that police should have used a stun gun. Apparently, there was not one available to these two particular police.

Also, some are saying that a psychological specialist should have been used in this particular case. Again, that person was not available.

And finally, Aaron, I talked to an activist minister just about an hour ago. He was critical of what he said was unnecessary force, but his words, frankly, were not all that inflammatory. He was upset, but as I say, his words and those of others, apparently, have not been inflammatory so far -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Brian, very much. Brian Cabell is in Cincinnati tonight.

Charlie Luken was the mayor of Cincinnati when the rioting broke out two and a half years ago. He's the mayor still. In our experience, few people have done as much thinking about race and policing in the country than he has. And we talked with him earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Well, sir, like much of the country, I guess by now, you have seen the tape. Perhaps you've seen more of it than many. What's your take on what happened the other night?

CHARLIE LUKEN, CINCINNATI MAYOR: Well, my take, Aaron, is that a police officer was assaulted violently by a 400-pound man, and they responded as they are trained to do.

It is never pretty to watch. But if you look at the tape carefully, you will see the police officers avoid carefully hitting this individual in the head. The autopsy reports are coming out that show this gentleman had two different kinds of drugs in his system, which creates aggressive and violent behavior.

And finally, the police officers are only responding to an attack that, under certain circumstances, could be lethal.

And so I think people have seen the beating part, but they haven't seen it when the 400-pound man just waylays a police officer, who is pleading with him to back up.

BROWN: Does that exist on tape?

LUKEN: The beginning of the tape clearly shows this officer is saying, "Please, back up, back up, back up." And then all of a sudden he is hit violently by this gentleman, and he's knocked to the ground.

And his partner responds and they get him upright. And they are very specific about what they want him to do, which is put the hands behind his back. He gets up. He flails away. At one point, he grabs the officer's baton.

So I think that people have got to watch this tape very carefully, compare it to how police officers are trained. And I will -- I think it will clearly show that the officers did what they were trained to do.

BROWN: There are certain historical issues that make this somewhat complicated when you're dealing with Cincinnati. Tell me how the city -- I guess both -- all aspects of the city -- black, white and otherwise -- are dealing with it today.

LUKEN: I think calmly so far. I mean, we have gotten a tremendous amount of national media attention because, as you say, it is Cincinnati.

But I would point out that since people visit -- like yourself visited us almost three years ago, we have voluntarily agreed to come under Justice Department supervision. We are under a collaborative that is supervised with the court, with citizens in the city. We have moved forward with community-oriented policing all over this town.

There is a much healthier relationship between police and citizens. And hopefully that will play out today as people at least take the time to reflect on the total picture here. BROWN: Perhaps the harshest words I've heard -- I certainly, haven't heard them all. But the harshest words came from the head of the police union, who was not happy with the way the officers involved were treated. Do you have any concern about how they were treated by their superiors?

LUKEN: Any time -- one thing I've learned about this, Aaron, is any time something like this happens, you have to analyze all aspects of it and learn from the way it was handled.

I talked to the head of Fraternal Order of Police after he made those comments and I said to him two things. Look, we will look at how these officers were treated to make sure they were treated respectfully.

But secondly, his implication at one point that there might be a police slowdown in response to this is something that this community just will not tolerate.

BROWN: And do you consider that a real possibility?

LUKEN: No. But I would be misleading you if I didn't acknowledge that after our situation, the riots of three years ago, there was clearly -- the police did -- they were not proactive in their efforts. And we saw the number of arrests go dramatically down in Cincinnati.

BROWN: It's always good to talk to you, and it always seems that we end up talking in moments like this. We appreciate your time, Mayor. Good luck.

LUKEN: Aaron, thank you. It's always good to talk to you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Cincinnati's mayor, Charlie Luken, earlier today.

Now on to Iraq and a bloody end to an especially deadly month there, the deadliest since last spring when the president declared major combat over. Since then, there have been many hundreds of attacks on American soldiers, several hundred deaths, but there has never been an attack like the one this weekend.

Reporting for us tonight, CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is where at 716mm AK round went through the door.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Shot up, banged up, Humvees hint at the ferocity of the battle. Soldiers provide testimony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There I am in the middle of a huge firefight with bullets and mortars and RPGs falling all around me.

ROBERTSON: Commanders, the details.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can have multiple attacks both at the banks, because that was a given location that they knew we'd go to, and the routes that we most likely would use going in and out.

ROBERTSON: Repairs now underway from what coalition officials describe as the largest engagement since the end of major combat.

(on camera) Forty-six Iraqis killed, 18 wounded and 11 taken prisoner, according to officers here. Intelligence officials say among those may have been members of Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen. They also acknowledge that in the ferocity of such a firefight there may have been civilian casualties.

(voice-over) In Samarra, Tariq Azzah (ph) angrily points to his shot-up living room. "Look at what the U.S. troops have done," he says.

Asked about the gun clip on his floor, he shows it's empty. "No one was firing from here," he insists, his friend adding, "The resistance had been told to stand down."

But in apparent contradiction, another man in the crowded room adds, "My invalid brother was killed in the crossfire."

From the hospital where the wounded are still being treated, anger seems strongest, particularly from the mother of this man. "They burned his car and hit him," she says. "Where is the freedom Bush promised?"

Those in this ward claiming they were leaving work when they were shot.

This Iraqi police major has been examining the list of wounded and dead. Fifty injured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Of all the injured brought to the hospital, we haven't seen any in black uniforms belonging to the Saddam Fedayeen.

ROBERTSON: He also contradicts the coalition again, saying only eight people died, among them an elderly Iranian man.

Away from our camera and crowds, an Iraqi told us what he described as resistance fighters had been preparing for an attack.

One man being taken away for treatment showing he had some fight left in him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And at this base just outside of Samarra, some of those prisoners are being held. And according to intelligence officers, they are learning details about the cell structure of the Iraqi insurgents from inside the town of Samarra -- Aaron.

BROWN: What do we make of the discrepancy between what the Army says is the casualty toll and what people there are saying the casualty toll was?

ROBERTSON: Well, the Army are very clear on this casualty toll. They haven't wavered on it. They make this toll by assessing from each soldier involved in the firefight exactly whom he saw, whom he targeted, whom he shot that he thought that he killed. That's where their figures come from.

The police in the town of Samarra are at odds to reconcile that figure. Neither the police nor the coalition troops here can actually point to where the bodies of the 46 people are.

The only dead people we were shown by Iraqi police were two elderly people in the city morgue. Apart from that, the morgue was completely empty. There appeared to be no -- there were no mass funerals going on in Samarra when we were there. So it's very, very difficult to reconcile those figures at all.

But it does happen that when troops provide an account of the people that they believed who have been killed, that that number can become revised down when better statistics, better information is available. And certainly the coalition is continuing to investigate exactly what happened, they tell us -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson tonight.

John Burns joins us here, home from Iraq, where he was based for so long before, before, during and after the war. Mr. Burns' work appears in the pages of "The New York Times." We're glad to have him here and safe.

Nice to see you.

What do you make of what happened over the weekend? Is it a new strategy, a new tactic? Or was it a moment of opportunity for the insurgents?

JOHN BURNS, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": You know, the American generals have been saying now for some time that they're up against an extremely adaptive, very smart enemy. It's appeared to us, up until quite recently, that they're one step ahead of the U.S. forces. I'm not sure how long that will continue to be the case.

The U.S. forces have also proved themselves to be pretty adaptive, especially in the period of the last two or three weeks, when they've gone on the offensive, as they haven't been since April.

But incidents of this kind are very confusing in a situation which is, even to those of us who have been on the ground in Iraq, very confusing.

BROWN: How should viewers -- Americans see the reaction of Iraqis in this incident and in others, in some cases where they seem to be celebrating the deaths of Americans, that sort of thing?

BURNS: That's a very hard thing to read. Of course, Americans are very familiar with the Sunni Triangle and the responses on the whole in the Sunni Triangle are different than they are elsewhere. Sunnis are a minority in Iraq.

But my reading in the Sunni Triangle is that it's far too simple to simply conclude that there are millions of Sunnis who are with Saddam Hussein.

There's increasing doubt in Iraq that the United States will stay the course, no matter what the president says, no matter what the generals say. There's a sense that the United States may find the price too high.

Saddam has not been captured. Iraqis who suffered for 30 years of terror from Saddam Hussein will tell you how concerned they are that he might come back, however illusory that might seem to us. So there's...

BROWN: Are they talking literally about him or them, the Ba'athists?

BURNS: Them, but there's a particular trauma about him personally. And as long as that's the case, some of these reactions will be cultured by that. That's to say, people will become keen to show a hostility for the United States troops. For instance, like this, that may not necessarily be authentic.

This is not to say that there isn't a genuine dislike and even hatred of United States forces. But in the villages and towns and cities that I went into in the Sunni Triangle recently, if you hang around long enough to talk to people and you get behind the kind of ritualized pro-Saddam shouts, you find a much more moderated view, which tends to boil down to this.

They suffered, too, from Saddam Hussein. They do not, in the main, want him back. The overwhelming majority don't want him back.

They are not comfortable with the foreign occupation. They would like American troops to leave, but only after a stable situation has been created or, as a man in a village just south of Fallujah told me last week, he said, after they found a strong man to head the government. There's not much talk about democracy.

BROWN: Yes. Just in a minute or so, do they -- is it your sense that they're sort of covering their bets? If -- they'll dance on the graves of Americans if that seems like a safe -- the safe thing to do? Is that what they're doing? Essentially covering their bets just in case?

BURNS: You know, I'm not a psychologist.

BROWN: OK.

BURNS: Like most reporters, I talk to gatherings of people here and there, and we try and project from this to the much larger.

But one thing is unarguable. And that is that there was a 30- year trauma...

BROWN: Yes.

BURNS: ... that people in Iraq, up until April of this year, were terrified of saying or doing anything at all to imply criticism of Saddam. That relented quickly after April the 9th. In my view, it's coming back again.

So how authentic the cheering and the stamping and the hatred for American troops is very difficult to tell. But I think that nothing in Iraq is quite what it seems at first sight.

BROWN: How long are you home for?

BURNS: I'm going back to Baghdad this weekend.

BROWN: Nice to see you. John Burns, "New York Times," reporting and writing have been terrific, as we said before. It's nice to see you.

BURNS: It's a pleasure.

BROWN: Be well.

Still to come on the program tonight, questioning another tour of duty gets one Army reservist the boot. We'll explain why.

And on worlds AIDS Day, we'll show you what a group of soccer stars is doing to battle the disease. That and more. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tonight the U.S. military's 401st Civil Affairs Battalion in Rochester, New York, is preparing for deployment to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and from there overseas.

Captain Steven McCalpin (ph) was supposed to be with them, leading some of them. And from all reports he's a good leader. Instead, he'll stay behind to face charges of insubordination, charges that could end his long military career.

Federal law says U.S. troops are entitled to a 12-month break between tours of duty. It's been just 11 months since the captain's battalion returned from Afghanistan. And therein lies the problem.

Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK (voice-over): Army Reserve Captain Steven McCalpin (ph) was ready to serve again in Afghanistan. Had been recommended for two Bronze Stars for helping rebuild the country. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Captain McCalpin (ph), New York thanks you for your service to our country.

FEYERICK: Even being honored by New York's governor. Now the Army Reserve is kicking him out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Captain McCalpin (ph), you are hereby notified that you have been removed from the battle roster of the 401st Civil Affair Battalion, due to a loss of confidence in your leadership.

FEYERICK: The Army is charging McCalpin (ph) with insubordination, but McCalpin (ph) says he was just sticking up for his soldiers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're asking these soldiers to go above and beyond, when legally they're entitled to some rights of a stabilization period following a deployment.

FEYERICK: Army policy gives reservists 12 months home before being redeployed, and they can't be involuntarily mobilized before that time is up, though the Army can change the policy.

McCalpin's (ph) Special Operations soldiers were asked to sign a waiver returning them to combat early.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can see why we had to sign the waiver.

FEYERICK: Under pressure, Christopher Dridgle (ph) says he signed the waiver, then tore it up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to go, I don't see any reason why I should have to go. I've been there once already within the past year.

FEYERICK: Dridgle (ph) says a lot of soldiers were confused the Army asked rather than told them to go back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, there is a lot of pressure to sign a waiver to redeploy when it's less than a year between tours. You know, we don't know how much pressure was placed on the troops. Sometimes they don't know what they're signing.

FEYERICK: Captain McCalpin was downgraded to an inactive unit. He packed up his things at the base Monday, is 25-year Army Reserve career now in limbo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: An Army Reserve spokesman didn't want to talk about the insubordination charges or any of the details of McCalpin's (ph) case. The spokesman called it an administrative action, adding, "The Army is focused on fighting a war" -- Aaron.

BROWN: What is it he did that was insubordinate?

FEYERICK: There was a teleconference call where some of the commanding officers were able to speak amongst themselves about this waiver and the fact that some of the soldiers were being asked to sign it, returning them to combat much earlier than they would have to go.

And a couple of statements were made to him, according to what he says, that he was bordering on insubordination. A couple days later he was slapped with insubordination.

BROWN: OK. Deb, thank you very much. Deborah Feyerick.

Tonight, a few more items from around the country, starting in Sacramento, California, where legislators today repealed the law that allows illegal aliens in California to obtain a driver's license. It's a major victory for the new governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, who made the repeal of that law one of his campaign promises.

Police in Grand Forks, North Dakota, have made an arrest in connection with the disappearance of Dru Sjodin. The man in custody is Alfonso Rodriguez. He's being held in jail in Crookston, Minnesota, on kidnapping charges. Dru Sjodin, you may recall, vanished two Saturdays ago while talking with her boyfriend on a cell phone.

Another twist in the Michael Jackson case. Wireless microphones discovered in several locations outside the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department offices, places people might go for a cigarette break, for example.

They disappeared shortly after they were spotted on the day Jackson arrived at the department. A spokesman calls it an attempt to spy on investigators or perhaps get a really good scoop, as you might imagine.

And Roy Horn could be home by the end of the year. He remains in serious but stable condition at UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles, where he's recovering from the injuries he suffered in a tiger mauling in Las Vegas, back in October.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, tonight, dissent in Israel as Prime Minister Sharon hears criticism from some surprising quarters.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: No shortage of strangeness lately in the Middle East.

Syria's leader is calling for normal relations between his country and the state of Israel. "Define normal," a reporter asked him.

"Why, just like the relationship between Syria and the United States," he replied.

Palestinian radicals, in the meantime, are accusing some of their leaders of collaborating with the enemy. The collaborators in question took part in unofficial negotiations for a hypothetical peace agreement signed today by surrogate leaders at a simulated ceremony.

With all that as a backdrop, some of Israel's real tough guys, security experts both in and out of the government, have started saying that the tough guy tactics of the Sharon government may no longer be working.

Here's CNN's Sheila MacVicar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Suddenly, from all sides, from right and left, there is a chorus of voices, a chorus that grew even louder when the Israeli prime minister began talking about what he called unilateral concessions.

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I spoke in the past about the need for painful concessions. It is clear that, in the future, we will not be in all the places we are now.

MACVICAR: Ariel Sharon has not spelled out his plans, but look at who his unprecedented critics are. In September, from the pride of the Israeli Defense Forces, the Air Force, 27 pilots signed a letter saying they would no longer fly missions which could harm Palestinian civilians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The air force is a big part of our life, almost family. But I feel I have no other choice.

MACVICAR: In October, the current chief of staff of Israeli Defense Forces told journalists the Army opposes Israel's security fence and that the government's hard-line policy towards Palestinian civilians had been counterproductive and intensified hatred.

Next, four heads of Israel's security service came out of the shadows and warned, the country is headed for catastrophe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our impression is that there is no -- any political movement. And we think that that's critically important for the future of Israel, for the future of the Israeli society, for the Israeli economy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The situation, the way we see it, is very dangerous, meaning that the start of wall lead us into a place that we don't want to be.

MACVICAR: And then there are the alternate peace plans. Ayalon is the author of one. Another, the Geneva Accord, underwritten by the Swiss government, calls for Israeli withdrawal, partition of Jerusalem and for the Palestinians to give up the right of return.

A copy was delivered to every household in Israel. And a recent poll shows 53 percent of Israelis say they support it. The prime minister has had to repeat over and over again that he, too, has a plan and that he, too, believes peace is possible. And then there are Sharon's friends. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Israel should free settlement construction, dismantle unauthorized outposts, end the daily humiliation of the Palestinian people, and not prejudice final negotiations with the placement of walls and fences.

MACVICAR: From within his own increasingly fractious party, divided by even the suggestion that Israel might dismantle outposts and settlements.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under the present situation, any ideas thrown in the air by someone as senior as the prime minister of the state of Israel are very dangerous to us, both internally and internationally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Almost throughout his prime ministership, he enjoyed approval ratings between 50 percent and 60 percent. And now they're below 40 percent and they're dipping even further.

MACVICAR: Israeli public opinion is notoriously fickle. But what is clear is that he is losing support from the left and from the right, too, who hear the word concessions and think capitulation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACVICAR: Aaron, there is a sense that something will happen. The big question, of course, is what.

And the big question is, what exactly is Prime Minister Sharon's game? Is he going to play a waiting game, with the expectation that the Palestinians will once again descend into a spiral of violence? Or has he finally come to the point where he will have to make some very hard choices and persuade some -- make some very tough, very persuasive arguments to bring his party and bring the Israeli right along with him? -- Aaron.

BROWN: When he's talked about settlements that he -- that he might close down, is he talking about major settlements or these outposts where just perhaps a few dozen people live, as opposed to hundreds or thousands of people in some of the large settlements?

MACVICAR: This is like a fan dance, if you will. There is a lot less there than meets the eye.

What we are talking about are what are called illegal outposts, literally hilltops where there may be one or two or three trailers, temporary housing. We saw a great battle that was a real show early in the summer, when they tried to dismantle one of these. Peace Now, the group that monitors, says that there are literally dozens of them. Israel is now talking with the U.S. about perhaps taking down 10.

And, in the meantime, the deputy defense minister says that they are going to legalize even more. We are not talking about big settlements, where people are settled and there are bus routes and schools. We are talking about literally isolated outposts on hills, nothing that has a substantial population base -- Aaron.

BROWN: Sheila, thank you -- Sheila MacVicar tonight. A new one for us now, the "MONEYLINE Roundup," starting with a very tough call for President Bush, both here and aboard, keep a tariff on imported steel or roll it back. It is political poison in Michigan, where the president came calling the . Tariffs keep steel prices high, which hurt the car industry or anyone that uses steel. It's part of the reason the country has lost manufacturing jobs.

In Pittsburgh, where Mr. Bush goes tomorrow, it's the other way around, lots of steel made. So electoral politics comes into play. In any case, the European Union has set mid-month, December 15, for dropping the tariffs before retaliating with tariffs of its own on American products.

Boeing's chairman and chief executive officer, Phil Condit, has resigned with a gentle push. This comes a weekend after his CFO and another executive stepped down in the scandal over tanker sales to the Air Force. The Pentagon reportedly now put the deal on hold.

A second top Disney executive stepped down today. Stanley Gold followed Roy Disney out the door. Mr. Disney stepped down yesterday as vice chairman, criticizing the board, the company, and especially CEO Michael Eisner as he went. Both Mr. Disney and Mr. Gold once played key roles in saving the company back in the '80s, in part, by hiring Michael Eisner.

Disney's stock rose. Shares of Boeing fell today. But major markets took off, largely, they say, over positive numbers on manufacturing, retail sales and jobless claims. More signs the economy is improving.

Still to come tonight on NEWSNIGHT: rights vs. security. Just what makes a detainee and what rights do they have? We'll talk with one of the architects of the Patriot Act about some concerns he has after a break.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: For more than two years now, we've talked about the new normal, the normal we find ourselves in after the attack on the country on 9/11.

It's created some unprecedented situations, not the least of which are the cases of two American citizens being held for more than a year now without access to lawyers, without charges being filed, without the right to go before a judge or anyone else. Since the beginning, the civil libertarians have complained. Recently, concerns have been heard in what you might consider surprising quarters.

Viet Dinh was one of the principal architects of the Patriot Act. And in recent speeches and recent interviews, he has raised questions about the handling of the cases of the two Americans. Mr. Dinh joins us tonight from Washington.

It's good to see you, sir. Let's talk specifically about where your concerns lie and where they don't. It's not about the Patriot Act. It's not about the Guantanamo Bay. It's really about these two Americans, isn't it?

VIET DINH, GEORGETOWN LAW SCHOOL: That's exactly right.

I think it's unquestioned that the president has the authority to detain battlefield combatants in order to incapacitate them and obtain intelligence information from them. I think, in this war against terror, the president's authority also extends to nontraditional battlefields and nontraditional combatants, like the terrorist, alleged terrorist, Jose Padilla. I think he has ample authority to do that.

And he is owed great deference on how he handles these cases, including the conditions under which he holds them, including the manner in which, when, whether and what kind of process he gives them. But I think the initial government position, especially in the Padilla case, where he is held without access to counsel and without any promise of any legal process was very troublesome.

Now, I must note that the administration, in recent weeks -- actually, just about a weeks ago -- has moved significantly in the case, whereby it has represented to the court that it will allow access to counsel to Jose Padilla in the very near future. I think that fundamentally changes the case, makes it much more sustainable. And there is some room for it to move to what I would call legal safe harbor by providing some sort of process, executive or military. It need not be judicial. It need not be immediate. But that would make the case, I think, bulletproof.

BROWN: Well, let me ask a couple questions about that.

Why should there not be, as there is in a normal criminal case, a set length of time; you have 48 hours or 48 days, or whatever it is, to bring charges? In the meantime, the guy has right to counsel. He's an American citizen.

DINH: Right.

The normal criminal process not only has the right to a speedy trial, but also the whole panoply of rights, including Fourth Amendment rights to unreasonable search and seizure, Fifth Amendment right to due process, Sixth Amendment right to due counsel and the like. These are not the normal criminal processes, because these are unlawful enemy combatants that the president, as a commander in chief, has authority to detain in order to incapacitate them and also obtain intelligence from them.

I think he is given great latitude in the history of the Supreme Court in order to make those determinations, because he is the person charged with protecting the national security of the United States and gathering the intelligence necessary. I think he's owed great latitude and great deference. That deference, however, is not absolute. And I think, on this score, the president and the administration deserve some credit for keeping its ears to the ground and making its decision based on changed circumstances. Now they have determined -- or they say they will soon determine that the intelligence needs are not so great that they cannot allow access to counsel.

BROWN: And, sir, on that -- in that area, do you think, where either Mr. Padilla or the Patriot Act or Guantanamo is concerned, in this whole area, that it's time perhaps to step back and look at the rules and perhaps rewrite the rules, now that we have two years' experience with them?

DINH: There's no question that we are in a transition phase from the sprint stage of race towards safety into more of a marathon phase. And I think it behooves us to engage in a national conversation about the rules of the road, as we continue on the path toward safety.

One note here is that Congress has been deafeningly silent in this case. It is primarily a matter for the executive. But Congress has an important constitutional voice that it could lend to this national debate. I do think that the determination rests with the executive. It is time that we talk about some standardized procedures, rather than just simply ad hoc basis, while recognizing that the president should have some discretion to make case-by-case determination for the worst of the enemy combatants, or the kingpins, if you will, of al Qaeda.

BROWN: Mr. Dinh, we hope that conversation takes place. We hope you'll participate in it. And you're always welcome here to talk about these issues. Thank you, sir, very much.

DINH: Thank you so much.

BROWN: Viet Dinh helped write the Patriot Act while at the Justice Department, now a law school professor.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: It is World AIDS Day -- using soccer, or football, for our international footballs, to educate young people about it.

This is NEWSNIGHT. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Today is World AIDS Day. And the numbers and the forecasts are grim. The World Health Organization says the epidemic shows no signs of abating.

This year alone, five million people became infected with HIV worldwide. Three million died, the highest toll ever. That said, the fight continues, even where the odds are the worst. One in five adults across Southern Africa is now living with HIV/AIDS, the highest rate since the epidemic began, which is why, in Zimbabwe, saving the children is so important, which is where the soccer stars come in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In Zimbabwe, soccer is the big good thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you can imagine all the major league and minor league sports in America rolled into one, that's how big soccer is. It's absolutely huge.

BROWN: In Zimbabwe, AIDS is the big bad thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Between 1990 and 2000, in that 10-year period, the life expectancy has gone down from 63 to 39. Nobody that I know personally hasn't been touched by this disease in one way or another.

BROWN: Tommy Clark (ph), Ethan Zone (ph), and Mintembe Molobu (ph) all play professional soccer in Zimbabwe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I came back, I kept hearing reports about different friends of mine who had died of AIDS. A light bulb went off for me, one, having played there and seen the incredible popularity, the size of the crowds and the sort of celebrity that soccer players enjoy, and also seeing the devastating problem, combining those two made me see like the vision for Grassroots Soccer.

BROWN: The idea is simple. Grassroots recruits famous soccer players, gives them six weeks of HIV and AIDS training, and then sends them into classrooms for four days. They began the program in Zimbabwe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretend that this person in the middle is HIV-positive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're all just doing such a good job, so enthusiastic and very natural teachers. The kids have been very willing to talk about it as well. And it seems almost as if this is -- finally, they have a safe opportunity.

BROWN: Children 12 to 14 are targeted for the program.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a good chance they're HIV negative at that age, but they're also thinking about sex. So it seems like an ideal point to catch them.

BROWN: Written in partnership with the Centers For Disease Control, the Grassroots Soccer curriculum is designed to separate fact from fiction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The AIDS virus is spread from toilet seats." Thirty seconds.

BROWN: And give information they need to protect themselves from HIV.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything that we're talking about, it's OK, because it will help us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm learning so many things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The look on these kids' faces when these soccer players go into the classroom to deliver this message is just unbelievable.

BROWN: During their seven months in Zimbabwe, 1,000 kids participated in the program.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is obviously an enormous problem. The more kids we can bring our idea to, the better. We would like, in five years, to have hit every 12- to 14-year-old in Southern Africa.

BROWN: One thousand down, 8,589,000 still to go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: World AIDS Day.

We'll check morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Oh, how I missed that. Time to check morning papers from around the country.

And for those of you who had been keeping track at home of how many papers I do, we'll keep track for you now. They take bets on this. And they think I'm stalling right now, which, of course, I am.

"The Philadelphia Inquirer," this would be paper No. 1. "DuPont Shifts Focus Overseas," DuPont a Delaware company, right around the corner. "The company's center of gravity will move to Asia and Eastern Europe as it sheds jobs and consolidates to cut nearly $1 billion in cost," a legit lead story on the front page of a very good newspaper, "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

"The Atlanta Constitution" leads with the economy, "A Two-Fisted Recovery. Housing Rises, Factory Hums." A story that caught my eye plays into what we were talking to Viet Dinh about a few moments ago. "Bush Wants Freer Rein to Make Arrests Abroad." The government will argue it has the right to go into foreign countries and snatch suspects, if it decides it wants to. It will go to the Supreme Court.

"The Detroit News," also political on the front page. "Weary Factory Workers Hear Bush Tout Jobs. After Fund-Raiser, Bush Visits Auto Supply Company, Boasts of Strengthening Economy." They're not happy with the president in Michigan because of the loss of manufacturing jobs. And so he has some work to do there.

How we doing on time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forty seconds.

BROWN: Thank you. "The Dallas Morning News." I like this story a lot. It's actually an Oklahoma story, but it leads the Dallas paper. "They're going to let us die a natural death 20 years after becoming a Superfund cleanup site." This is outrageous. You know that? "Oklahoma Area Still Lives With Lead Contamination." There's no money, they say, to clean up these Superfund sites.

"Wipeout" is "The Boston Herald" headline. "Public Safety Trio Axed in Shakeup." That's a word that always scares me, to be honest.

"The Washington Times." "Registration of Muslims, Arabs Halted. Homeland Security Ends Immigration Program."

And, if I can find it, and I have, "The Chicago Sun-Times"' headline. "Arson Investigators Puzzled By Gasoline on Loop Fire Debris." That's that terrible high-rise fire. Weather tomorrow, I don't get it, "minty fresh." That's the weather tomorrow in Chicago.

We'll wrap up the day in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we go tonight, a quick recap of our top story: the videotaped beating over the weekend of a black suspect by Cincinnati police officers. The county coroner's office said today, Nathaniel Jones, who died a short time later, had both cocaine and PCP in his system, along with evidence of heart disease, an enlarged heart.

In addition to the beating, the tape shows Mr. Jones lunging at the officers. Earlier in the program, Cincinnati's mayor said he regretted the loss of life, but believes police acted properly in the case.

Tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT: small things to some, the world to others, sifting through the debris of 9/11 to preserve pieces of history. That's tomorrow on the program.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next.

Good to see you all again. And good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Coalition Firefight; Captain Could be Dismissed for Sticking up for His Troops>


Aired December 1, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: Good evening again, everyone.
The proof is in pictures, goes the old saying. We wonder.

Two people, both honorable, could look at the same pictures out of Cincinnati tonight and see something entirely different.

To one it will be a simple case of police brutality, fueled no doubt by race. To the other, it will be a simple and clear case of self-defense.

A deranged man, a big man, who would not submit to virtual pleading by police.

The same pictures viewed differently in a city that knows racial tension and distrust of police more than most. It is our lead tonight and where we begin the whip.

CNN's Brian Cabell is in Cincinnati. Brian, a headline from you, please.

BRIAN CABELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Cincinnati has a history of racial strife, and those concerns are being raised again. An African-American male died after fighting with police. Some are saying it was excessive force -- Aaron.

BROWN: Brian, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

Next, to Iraq and the firefight and the ambush and the questions raised. CNN's Nic Robertson has the watch. Nic, a headline from you tonight.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the biggest battle since major conflict ended in May. According to troops here, it surprised them in its complexity, size and scale. The townspeople of Samarra, where it took place, on the other hand, are very angry -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

To Rochester, New York, next and the reservist who won praise for taking care of his troops in Afghanistan only to be facing problems back at home. CNN's Deborah Feyerick has been working on that. Deb, the headline. DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a number of Army reserves are being asked to sign waivers getting them back into combat early. But when a captain stood up for them, he was accused of insubordination.

BROWN: Deb, thank you.

And finally, the Israeli-Palestinian question and the doubts of some important Israelis about their government's policy. CNN's Sheila MacVicar has been working on that. So Sheila, a headline.

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, all of that as a new peace plan is signed in Geneva. Right wing rabbis have condemned those involved as traitors. And we'll ask the question whether or not this might push Prime Minister Sharon to make some new moves.

BROWN: Sheila, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up tonight, we talk with Cincinnati's mayor, Charlie Luken, and a talk with John Burns, who has been doing some splendid reporting from Iraq for "The New York Times."

Also, what Magic Johnson did in this country, soccer stars are doing in Africa. It's World Aids Day, and we'll look at the fight against AIDS tonight.

Then, tanned and rested and happy he's not a turkey, the rooster crows again. Morning papers to start the week off right, or to end the program at least.

All of that to come in the hour ahead.

We begin in Cincinnati, where the basic facts are clear, even if their meaning is not.

man is dead. He died after an attempt by police to arrest and subdue him. He is dead after he resisted that arrest and after being hit many times with police batons.

Those facts are not dispute. What they mean in a city of serious and long-standing racial tension is quite another matter.

Here's CNN's Brian Cabell.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CABELL (voice-over): It started with a complaint from a restaurant employee. A very large man was acting strange outside.

Two police officers responded and immediately encountered 5'9", 350-pound Nathaniel Jones. A camera mounted on the police car recorded some of the confrontation. It was rolling as a fight ensued: Jones against two much smaller cops, armed with nightsticks and a chemical spray. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Taking into consideration everything that we see on this tape here, it appears to be consistent with our training. These officers responded very well to an assault of person, a very large person, who clearly attacks them very violently.

CABELL: Eventually, backup for the officers arrive, and Jones was subdued. But police noticed he needed medical help. He was rushed to the hospital but died shortly afterwards. Now questions are being raised.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are not trying to say that this gentleman was innocent. I don't know what the circumstances were. But I have seen the film. And the kind of beating that I observed would raise questions in anyone's mind.

CABELL: The coroner, who hasn't yet determined Jones' cause of death, does report he had cardiac problems and at least traces of PCP and cocaine in his system.

Racial violence exploded in Cincinnati two years ago after a 19- year-old African-American man was shot to death by police. Many blacks say that's been a pattern here. Black men harassed, sometimes killed by police using undue force. In fact, after disturbances, the city paid out $4.5 million in settlements to blacks for excessive police force.

In the last couple of years, with a federal judge overseeing reconciliation between the police and the black community, racial tensions had eased, at least until Sunday morning.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CABELL: A couple of points here. Some are saying that police should have used a stun gun. Apparently, there was not one available to these two particular police.

Also, some are saying that a psychological specialist should have been used in this particular case. Again, that person was not available.

And finally, Aaron, I talked to an activist minister just about an hour ago. He was critical of what he said was unnecessary force, but his words, frankly, were not all that inflammatory. He was upset, but as I say, his words and those of others, apparently, have not been inflammatory so far -- Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you, Brian, very much. Brian Cabell is in Cincinnati tonight.

Charlie Luken was the mayor of Cincinnati when the rioting broke out two and a half years ago. He's the mayor still. In our experience, few people have done as much thinking about race and policing in the country than he has. And we talked with him earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Well, sir, like much of the country, I guess by now, you have seen the tape. Perhaps you've seen more of it than many. What's your take on what happened the other night?

CHARLIE LUKEN, CINCINNATI MAYOR: Well, my take, Aaron, is that a police officer was assaulted violently by a 400-pound man, and they responded as they are trained to do.

It is never pretty to watch. But if you look at the tape carefully, you will see the police officers avoid carefully hitting this individual in the head. The autopsy reports are coming out that show this gentleman had two different kinds of drugs in his system, which creates aggressive and violent behavior.

And finally, the police officers are only responding to an attack that, under certain circumstances, could be lethal.

And so I think people have seen the beating part, but they haven't seen it when the 400-pound man just waylays a police officer, who is pleading with him to back up.

BROWN: Does that exist on tape?

LUKEN: The beginning of the tape clearly shows this officer is saying, "Please, back up, back up, back up." And then all of a sudden he is hit violently by this gentleman, and he's knocked to the ground.

And his partner responds and they get him upright. And they are very specific about what they want him to do, which is put the hands behind his back. He gets up. He flails away. At one point, he grabs the officer's baton.

So I think that people have got to watch this tape very carefully, compare it to how police officers are trained. And I will -- I think it will clearly show that the officers did what they were trained to do.

BROWN: There are certain historical issues that make this somewhat complicated when you're dealing with Cincinnati. Tell me how the city -- I guess both -- all aspects of the city -- black, white and otherwise -- are dealing with it today.

LUKEN: I think calmly so far. I mean, we have gotten a tremendous amount of national media attention because, as you say, it is Cincinnati.

But I would point out that since people visit -- like yourself visited us almost three years ago, we have voluntarily agreed to come under Justice Department supervision. We are under a collaborative that is supervised with the court, with citizens in the city. We have moved forward with community-oriented policing all over this town.

There is a much healthier relationship between police and citizens. And hopefully that will play out today as people at least take the time to reflect on the total picture here. BROWN: Perhaps the harshest words I've heard -- I certainly, haven't heard them all. But the harshest words came from the head of the police union, who was not happy with the way the officers involved were treated. Do you have any concern about how they were treated by their superiors?

LUKEN: Any time -- one thing I've learned about this, Aaron, is any time something like this happens, you have to analyze all aspects of it and learn from the way it was handled.

I talked to the head of Fraternal Order of Police after he made those comments and I said to him two things. Look, we will look at how these officers were treated to make sure they were treated respectfully.

But secondly, his implication at one point that there might be a police slowdown in response to this is something that this community just will not tolerate.

BROWN: And do you consider that a real possibility?

LUKEN: No. But I would be misleading you if I didn't acknowledge that after our situation, the riots of three years ago, there was clearly -- the police did -- they were not proactive in their efforts. And we saw the number of arrests go dramatically down in Cincinnati.

BROWN: It's always good to talk to you, and it always seems that we end up talking in moments like this. We appreciate your time, Mayor. Good luck.

LUKEN: Aaron, thank you. It's always good to talk to you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Cincinnati's mayor, Charlie Luken, earlier today.

Now on to Iraq and a bloody end to an especially deadly month there, the deadliest since last spring when the president declared major combat over. Since then, there have been many hundreds of attacks on American soldiers, several hundred deaths, but there has never been an attack like the one this weekend.

Reporting for us tonight, CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is where at 716mm AK round went through the door.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Shot up, banged up, Humvees hint at the ferocity of the battle. Soldiers provide testimony.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There I am in the middle of a huge firefight with bullets and mortars and RPGs falling all around me.

ROBERTSON: Commanders, the details.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can have multiple attacks both at the banks, because that was a given location that they knew we'd go to, and the routes that we most likely would use going in and out.

ROBERTSON: Repairs now underway from what coalition officials describe as the largest engagement since the end of major combat.

(on camera) Forty-six Iraqis killed, 18 wounded and 11 taken prisoner, according to officers here. Intelligence officials say among those may have been members of Saddam Hussein's Fedayeen. They also acknowledge that in the ferocity of such a firefight there may have been civilian casualties.

(voice-over) In Samarra, Tariq Azzah (ph) angrily points to his shot-up living room. "Look at what the U.S. troops have done," he says.

Asked about the gun clip on his floor, he shows it's empty. "No one was firing from here," he insists, his friend adding, "The resistance had been told to stand down."

But in apparent contradiction, another man in the crowded room adds, "My invalid brother was killed in the crossfire."

From the hospital where the wounded are still being treated, anger seems strongest, particularly from the mother of this man. "They burned his car and hit him," she says. "Where is the freedom Bush promised?"

Those in this ward claiming they were leaving work when they were shot.

This Iraqi police major has been examining the list of wounded and dead. Fifty injured.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): Of all the injured brought to the hospital, we haven't seen any in black uniforms belonging to the Saddam Fedayeen.

ROBERTSON: He also contradicts the coalition again, saying only eight people died, among them an elderly Iranian man.

Away from our camera and crowds, an Iraqi told us what he described as resistance fighters had been preparing for an attack.

One man being taken away for treatment showing he had some fight left in him.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And at this base just outside of Samarra, some of those prisoners are being held. And according to intelligence officers, they are learning details about the cell structure of the Iraqi insurgents from inside the town of Samarra -- Aaron.

BROWN: What do we make of the discrepancy between what the Army says is the casualty toll and what people there are saying the casualty toll was?

ROBERTSON: Well, the Army are very clear on this casualty toll. They haven't wavered on it. They make this toll by assessing from each soldier involved in the firefight exactly whom he saw, whom he targeted, whom he shot that he thought that he killed. That's where their figures come from.

The police in the town of Samarra are at odds to reconcile that figure. Neither the police nor the coalition troops here can actually point to where the bodies of the 46 people are.

The only dead people we were shown by Iraqi police were two elderly people in the city morgue. Apart from that, the morgue was completely empty. There appeared to be no -- there were no mass funerals going on in Samarra when we were there. So it's very, very difficult to reconcile those figures at all.

But it does happen that when troops provide an account of the people that they believed who have been killed, that that number can become revised down when better statistics, better information is available. And certainly the coalition is continuing to investigate exactly what happened, they tell us -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson tonight.

John Burns joins us here, home from Iraq, where he was based for so long before, before, during and after the war. Mr. Burns' work appears in the pages of "The New York Times." We're glad to have him here and safe.

Nice to see you.

What do you make of what happened over the weekend? Is it a new strategy, a new tactic? Or was it a moment of opportunity for the insurgents?

JOHN BURNS, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": You know, the American generals have been saying now for some time that they're up against an extremely adaptive, very smart enemy. It's appeared to us, up until quite recently, that they're one step ahead of the U.S. forces. I'm not sure how long that will continue to be the case.

The U.S. forces have also proved themselves to be pretty adaptive, especially in the period of the last two or three weeks, when they've gone on the offensive, as they haven't been since April.

But incidents of this kind are very confusing in a situation which is, even to those of us who have been on the ground in Iraq, very confusing.

BROWN: How should viewers -- Americans see the reaction of Iraqis in this incident and in others, in some cases where they seem to be celebrating the deaths of Americans, that sort of thing?

BURNS: That's a very hard thing to read. Of course, Americans are very familiar with the Sunni Triangle and the responses on the whole in the Sunni Triangle are different than they are elsewhere. Sunnis are a minority in Iraq.

But my reading in the Sunni Triangle is that it's far too simple to simply conclude that there are millions of Sunnis who are with Saddam Hussein.

There's increasing doubt in Iraq that the United States will stay the course, no matter what the president says, no matter what the generals say. There's a sense that the United States may find the price too high.

Saddam has not been captured. Iraqis who suffered for 30 years of terror from Saddam Hussein will tell you how concerned they are that he might come back, however illusory that might seem to us. So there's...

BROWN: Are they talking literally about him or them, the Ba'athists?

BURNS: Them, but there's a particular trauma about him personally. And as long as that's the case, some of these reactions will be cultured by that. That's to say, people will become keen to show a hostility for the United States troops. For instance, like this, that may not necessarily be authentic.

This is not to say that there isn't a genuine dislike and even hatred of United States forces. But in the villages and towns and cities that I went into in the Sunni Triangle recently, if you hang around long enough to talk to people and you get behind the kind of ritualized pro-Saddam shouts, you find a much more moderated view, which tends to boil down to this.

They suffered, too, from Saddam Hussein. They do not, in the main, want him back. The overwhelming majority don't want him back.

They are not comfortable with the foreign occupation. They would like American troops to leave, but only after a stable situation has been created or, as a man in a village just south of Fallujah told me last week, he said, after they found a strong man to head the government. There's not much talk about democracy.

BROWN: Yes. Just in a minute or so, do they -- is it your sense that they're sort of covering their bets? If -- they'll dance on the graves of Americans if that seems like a safe -- the safe thing to do? Is that what they're doing? Essentially covering their bets just in case?

BURNS: You know, I'm not a psychologist.

BROWN: OK.

BURNS: Like most reporters, I talk to gatherings of people here and there, and we try and project from this to the much larger.

But one thing is unarguable. And that is that there was a 30- year trauma...

BROWN: Yes.

BURNS: ... that people in Iraq, up until April of this year, were terrified of saying or doing anything at all to imply criticism of Saddam. That relented quickly after April the 9th. In my view, it's coming back again.

So how authentic the cheering and the stamping and the hatred for American troops is very difficult to tell. But I think that nothing in Iraq is quite what it seems at first sight.

BROWN: How long are you home for?

BURNS: I'm going back to Baghdad this weekend.

BROWN: Nice to see you. John Burns, "New York Times," reporting and writing have been terrific, as we said before. It's nice to see you.

BURNS: It's a pleasure.

BROWN: Be well.

Still to come on the program tonight, questioning another tour of duty gets one Army reservist the boot. We'll explain why.

And on worlds AIDS Day, we'll show you what a group of soccer stars is doing to battle the disease. That and more. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tonight the U.S. military's 401st Civil Affairs Battalion in Rochester, New York, is preparing for deployment to Fort Bragg, North Carolina, and from there overseas.

Captain Steven McCalpin (ph) was supposed to be with them, leading some of them. And from all reports he's a good leader. Instead, he'll stay behind to face charges of insubordination, charges that could end his long military career.

Federal law says U.S. troops are entitled to a 12-month break between tours of duty. It's been just 11 months since the captain's battalion returned from Afghanistan. And therein lies the problem.

Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK (voice-over): Army Reserve Captain Steven McCalpin (ph) was ready to serve again in Afghanistan. Had been recommended for two Bronze Stars for helping rebuild the country. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Captain McCalpin (ph), New York thanks you for your service to our country.

FEYERICK: Even being honored by New York's governor. Now the Army Reserve is kicking him out.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Captain McCalpin (ph), you are hereby notified that you have been removed from the battle roster of the 401st Civil Affair Battalion, due to a loss of confidence in your leadership.

FEYERICK: The Army is charging McCalpin (ph) with insubordination, but McCalpin (ph) says he was just sticking up for his soldiers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're asking these soldiers to go above and beyond, when legally they're entitled to some rights of a stabilization period following a deployment.

FEYERICK: Army policy gives reservists 12 months home before being redeployed, and they can't be involuntarily mobilized before that time is up, though the Army can change the policy.

McCalpin's (ph) Special Operations soldiers were asked to sign a waiver returning them to combat early.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can see why we had to sign the waiver.

FEYERICK: Under pressure, Christopher Dridgle (ph) says he signed the waiver, then tore it up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I have to go, I don't see any reason why I should have to go. I've been there once already within the past year.

FEYERICK: Dridgle (ph) says a lot of soldiers were confused the Army asked rather than told them to go back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, there is a lot of pressure to sign a waiver to redeploy when it's less than a year between tours. You know, we don't know how much pressure was placed on the troops. Sometimes they don't know what they're signing.

FEYERICK: Captain McCalpin was downgraded to an inactive unit. He packed up his things at the base Monday, is 25-year Army Reserve career now in limbo.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: An Army Reserve spokesman didn't want to talk about the insubordination charges or any of the details of McCalpin's (ph) case. The spokesman called it an administrative action, adding, "The Army is focused on fighting a war" -- Aaron.

BROWN: What is it he did that was insubordinate?

FEYERICK: There was a teleconference call where some of the commanding officers were able to speak amongst themselves about this waiver and the fact that some of the soldiers were being asked to sign it, returning them to combat much earlier than they would have to go.

And a couple of statements were made to him, according to what he says, that he was bordering on insubordination. A couple days later he was slapped with insubordination.

BROWN: OK. Deb, thank you very much. Deborah Feyerick.

Tonight, a few more items from around the country, starting in Sacramento, California, where legislators today repealed the law that allows illegal aliens in California to obtain a driver's license. It's a major victory for the new governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, who made the repeal of that law one of his campaign promises.

Police in Grand Forks, North Dakota, have made an arrest in connection with the disappearance of Dru Sjodin. The man in custody is Alfonso Rodriguez. He's being held in jail in Crookston, Minnesota, on kidnapping charges. Dru Sjodin, you may recall, vanished two Saturdays ago while talking with her boyfriend on a cell phone.

Another twist in the Michael Jackson case. Wireless microphones discovered in several locations outside the Santa Barbara Sheriff's Department offices, places people might go for a cigarette break, for example.

They disappeared shortly after they were spotted on the day Jackson arrived at the department. A spokesman calls it an attempt to spy on investigators or perhaps get a really good scoop, as you might imagine.

And Roy Horn could be home by the end of the year. He remains in serious but stable condition at UCLA Medical Center in Los Angeles, where he's recovering from the injuries he suffered in a tiger mauling in Las Vegas, back in October.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, tonight, dissent in Israel as Prime Minister Sharon hears criticism from some surprising quarters.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: No shortage of strangeness lately in the Middle East.

Syria's leader is calling for normal relations between his country and the state of Israel. "Define normal," a reporter asked him.

"Why, just like the relationship between Syria and the United States," he replied.

Palestinian radicals, in the meantime, are accusing some of their leaders of collaborating with the enemy. The collaborators in question took part in unofficial negotiations for a hypothetical peace agreement signed today by surrogate leaders at a simulated ceremony.

With all that as a backdrop, some of Israel's real tough guys, security experts both in and out of the government, have started saying that the tough guy tactics of the Sharon government may no longer be working.

Here's CNN's Sheila MacVicar.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHEILA MACVICAR, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Suddenly, from all sides, from right and left, there is a chorus of voices, a chorus that grew even louder when the Israeli prime minister began talking about what he called unilateral concessions.

ARIEL SHARON, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): I spoke in the past about the need for painful concessions. It is clear that, in the future, we will not be in all the places we are now.

MACVICAR: Ariel Sharon has not spelled out his plans, but look at who his unprecedented critics are. In September, from the pride of the Israeli Defense Forces, the Air Force, 27 pilots signed a letter saying they would no longer fly missions which could harm Palestinian civilians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The air force is a big part of our life, almost family. But I feel I have no other choice.

MACVICAR: In October, the current chief of staff of Israeli Defense Forces told journalists the Army opposes Israel's security fence and that the government's hard-line policy towards Palestinian civilians had been counterproductive and intensified hatred.

Next, four heads of Israel's security service came out of the shadows and warned, the country is headed for catastrophe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our impression is that there is no -- any political movement. And we think that that's critically important for the future of Israel, for the future of the Israeli society, for the Israeli economy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The situation, the way we see it, is very dangerous, meaning that the start of wall lead us into a place that we don't want to be.

MACVICAR: And then there are the alternate peace plans. Ayalon is the author of one. Another, the Geneva Accord, underwritten by the Swiss government, calls for Israeli withdrawal, partition of Jerusalem and for the Palestinians to give up the right of return.

A copy was delivered to every household in Israel. And a recent poll shows 53 percent of Israelis say they support it. The prime minister has had to repeat over and over again that he, too, has a plan and that he, too, believes peace is possible. And then there are Sharon's friends. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Israel should free settlement construction, dismantle unauthorized outposts, end the daily humiliation of the Palestinian people, and not prejudice final negotiations with the placement of walls and fences.

MACVICAR: From within his own increasingly fractious party, divided by even the suggestion that Israel might dismantle outposts and settlements.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under the present situation, any ideas thrown in the air by someone as senior as the prime minister of the state of Israel are very dangerous to us, both internally and internationally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Almost throughout his prime ministership, he enjoyed approval ratings between 50 percent and 60 percent. And now they're below 40 percent and they're dipping even further.

MACVICAR: Israeli public opinion is notoriously fickle. But what is clear is that he is losing support from the left and from the right, too, who hear the word concessions and think capitulation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MACVICAR: Aaron, there is a sense that something will happen. The big question, of course, is what.

And the big question is, what exactly is Prime Minister Sharon's game? Is he going to play a waiting game, with the expectation that the Palestinians will once again descend into a spiral of violence? Or has he finally come to the point where he will have to make some very hard choices and persuade some -- make some very tough, very persuasive arguments to bring his party and bring the Israeli right along with him? -- Aaron.

BROWN: When he's talked about settlements that he -- that he might close down, is he talking about major settlements or these outposts where just perhaps a few dozen people live, as opposed to hundreds or thousands of people in some of the large settlements?

MACVICAR: This is like a fan dance, if you will. There is a lot less there than meets the eye.

What we are talking about are what are called illegal outposts, literally hilltops where there may be one or two or three trailers, temporary housing. We saw a great battle that was a real show early in the summer, when they tried to dismantle one of these. Peace Now, the group that monitors, says that there are literally dozens of them. Israel is now talking with the U.S. about perhaps taking down 10.

And, in the meantime, the deputy defense minister says that they are going to legalize even more. We are not talking about big settlements, where people are settled and there are bus routes and schools. We are talking about literally isolated outposts on hills, nothing that has a substantial population base -- Aaron.

BROWN: Sheila, thank you -- Sheila MacVicar tonight. A new one for us now, the "MONEYLINE Roundup," starting with a very tough call for President Bush, both here and aboard, keep a tariff on imported steel or roll it back. It is political poison in Michigan, where the president came calling the . Tariffs keep steel prices high, which hurt the car industry or anyone that uses steel. It's part of the reason the country has lost manufacturing jobs.

In Pittsburgh, where Mr. Bush goes tomorrow, it's the other way around, lots of steel made. So electoral politics comes into play. In any case, the European Union has set mid-month, December 15, for dropping the tariffs before retaliating with tariffs of its own on American products.

Boeing's chairman and chief executive officer, Phil Condit, has resigned with a gentle push. This comes a weekend after his CFO and another executive stepped down in the scandal over tanker sales to the Air Force. The Pentagon reportedly now put the deal on hold.

A second top Disney executive stepped down today. Stanley Gold followed Roy Disney out the door. Mr. Disney stepped down yesterday as vice chairman, criticizing the board, the company, and especially CEO Michael Eisner as he went. Both Mr. Disney and Mr. Gold once played key roles in saving the company back in the '80s, in part, by hiring Michael Eisner.

Disney's stock rose. Shares of Boeing fell today. But major markets took off, largely, they say, over positive numbers on manufacturing, retail sales and jobless claims. More signs the economy is improving.

Still to come tonight on NEWSNIGHT: rights vs. security. Just what makes a detainee and what rights do they have? We'll talk with one of the architects of the Patriot Act about some concerns he has after a break.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: For more than two years now, we've talked about the new normal, the normal we find ourselves in after the attack on the country on 9/11.

It's created some unprecedented situations, not the least of which are the cases of two American citizens being held for more than a year now without access to lawyers, without charges being filed, without the right to go before a judge or anyone else. Since the beginning, the civil libertarians have complained. Recently, concerns have been heard in what you might consider surprising quarters.

Viet Dinh was one of the principal architects of the Patriot Act. And in recent speeches and recent interviews, he has raised questions about the handling of the cases of the two Americans. Mr. Dinh joins us tonight from Washington.

It's good to see you, sir. Let's talk specifically about where your concerns lie and where they don't. It's not about the Patriot Act. It's not about the Guantanamo Bay. It's really about these two Americans, isn't it?

VIET DINH, GEORGETOWN LAW SCHOOL: That's exactly right.

I think it's unquestioned that the president has the authority to detain battlefield combatants in order to incapacitate them and obtain intelligence information from them. I think, in this war against terror, the president's authority also extends to nontraditional battlefields and nontraditional combatants, like the terrorist, alleged terrorist, Jose Padilla. I think he has ample authority to do that.

And he is owed great deference on how he handles these cases, including the conditions under which he holds them, including the manner in which, when, whether and what kind of process he gives them. But I think the initial government position, especially in the Padilla case, where he is held without access to counsel and without any promise of any legal process was very troublesome.

Now, I must note that the administration, in recent weeks -- actually, just about a weeks ago -- has moved significantly in the case, whereby it has represented to the court that it will allow access to counsel to Jose Padilla in the very near future. I think that fundamentally changes the case, makes it much more sustainable. And there is some room for it to move to what I would call legal safe harbor by providing some sort of process, executive or military. It need not be judicial. It need not be immediate. But that would make the case, I think, bulletproof.

BROWN: Well, let me ask a couple questions about that.

Why should there not be, as there is in a normal criminal case, a set length of time; you have 48 hours or 48 days, or whatever it is, to bring charges? In the meantime, the guy has right to counsel. He's an American citizen.

DINH: Right.

The normal criminal process not only has the right to a speedy trial, but also the whole panoply of rights, including Fourth Amendment rights to unreasonable search and seizure, Fifth Amendment right to due process, Sixth Amendment right to due counsel and the like. These are not the normal criminal processes, because these are unlawful enemy combatants that the president, as a commander in chief, has authority to detain in order to incapacitate them and also obtain intelligence from them.

I think he is given great latitude in the history of the Supreme Court in order to make those determinations, because he is the person charged with protecting the national security of the United States and gathering the intelligence necessary. I think he's owed great latitude and great deference. That deference, however, is not absolute. And I think, on this score, the president and the administration deserve some credit for keeping its ears to the ground and making its decision based on changed circumstances. Now they have determined -- or they say they will soon determine that the intelligence needs are not so great that they cannot allow access to counsel.

BROWN: And, sir, on that -- in that area, do you think, where either Mr. Padilla or the Patriot Act or Guantanamo is concerned, in this whole area, that it's time perhaps to step back and look at the rules and perhaps rewrite the rules, now that we have two years' experience with them?

DINH: There's no question that we are in a transition phase from the sprint stage of race towards safety into more of a marathon phase. And I think it behooves us to engage in a national conversation about the rules of the road, as we continue on the path toward safety.

One note here is that Congress has been deafeningly silent in this case. It is primarily a matter for the executive. But Congress has an important constitutional voice that it could lend to this national debate. I do think that the determination rests with the executive. It is time that we talk about some standardized procedures, rather than just simply ad hoc basis, while recognizing that the president should have some discretion to make case-by-case determination for the worst of the enemy combatants, or the kingpins, if you will, of al Qaeda.

BROWN: Mr. Dinh, we hope that conversation takes place. We hope you'll participate in it. And you're always welcome here to talk about these issues. Thank you, sir, very much.

DINH: Thank you so much.

BROWN: Viet Dinh helped write the Patriot Act while at the Justice Department, now a law school professor.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT: It is World AIDS Day -- using soccer, or football, for our international footballs, to educate young people about it.

This is NEWSNIGHT. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Today is World AIDS Day. And the numbers and the forecasts are grim. The World Health Organization says the epidemic shows no signs of abating.

This year alone, five million people became infected with HIV worldwide. Three million died, the highest toll ever. That said, the fight continues, even where the odds are the worst. One in five adults across Southern Africa is now living with HIV/AIDS, the highest rate since the epidemic began, which is why, in Zimbabwe, saving the children is so important, which is where the soccer stars come in.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In Zimbabwe, soccer is the big good thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you can imagine all the major league and minor league sports in America rolled into one, that's how big soccer is. It's absolutely huge.

BROWN: In Zimbabwe, AIDS is the big bad thing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Between 1990 and 2000, in that 10-year period, the life expectancy has gone down from 63 to 39. Nobody that I know personally hasn't been touched by this disease in one way or another.

BROWN: Tommy Clark (ph), Ethan Zone (ph), and Mintembe Molobu (ph) all play professional soccer in Zimbabwe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I came back, I kept hearing reports about different friends of mine who had died of AIDS. A light bulb went off for me, one, having played there and seen the incredible popularity, the size of the crowds and the sort of celebrity that soccer players enjoy, and also seeing the devastating problem, combining those two made me see like the vision for Grassroots Soccer.

BROWN: The idea is simple. Grassroots recruits famous soccer players, gives them six weeks of HIV and AIDS training, and then sends them into classrooms for four days. They began the program in Zimbabwe.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Pretend that this person in the middle is HIV-positive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're all just doing such a good job, so enthusiastic and very natural teachers. The kids have been very willing to talk about it as well. And it seems almost as if this is -- finally, they have a safe opportunity.

BROWN: Children 12 to 14 are targeted for the program.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a good chance they're HIV negative at that age, but they're also thinking about sex. So it seems like an ideal point to catch them.

BROWN: Written in partnership with the Centers For Disease Control, the Grassroots Soccer curriculum is designed to separate fact from fiction.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: "The AIDS virus is spread from toilet seats." Thirty seconds.

BROWN: And give information they need to protect themselves from HIV.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everything that we're talking about, it's OK, because it will help us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm learning so many things.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The look on these kids' faces when these soccer players go into the classroom to deliver this message is just unbelievable.

BROWN: During their seven months in Zimbabwe, 1,000 kids participated in the program.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There is obviously an enormous problem. The more kids we can bring our idea to, the better. We would like, in five years, to have hit every 12- to 14-year-old in Southern Africa.

BROWN: One thousand down, 8,589,000 still to go.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: World AIDS Day.

We'll check morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Oh, how I missed that. Time to check morning papers from around the country.

And for those of you who had been keeping track at home of how many papers I do, we'll keep track for you now. They take bets on this. And they think I'm stalling right now, which, of course, I am.

"The Philadelphia Inquirer," this would be paper No. 1. "DuPont Shifts Focus Overseas," DuPont a Delaware company, right around the corner. "The company's center of gravity will move to Asia and Eastern Europe as it sheds jobs and consolidates to cut nearly $1 billion in cost," a legit lead story on the front page of a very good newspaper, "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

"The Atlanta Constitution" leads with the economy, "A Two-Fisted Recovery. Housing Rises, Factory Hums." A story that caught my eye plays into what we were talking to Viet Dinh about a few moments ago. "Bush Wants Freer Rein to Make Arrests Abroad." The government will argue it has the right to go into foreign countries and snatch suspects, if it decides it wants to. It will go to the Supreme Court.

"The Detroit News," also political on the front page. "Weary Factory Workers Hear Bush Tout Jobs. After Fund-Raiser, Bush Visits Auto Supply Company, Boasts of Strengthening Economy." They're not happy with the president in Michigan because of the loss of manufacturing jobs. And so he has some work to do there.

How we doing on time?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Forty seconds.

BROWN: Thank you. "The Dallas Morning News." I like this story a lot. It's actually an Oklahoma story, but it leads the Dallas paper. "They're going to let us die a natural death 20 years after becoming a Superfund cleanup site." This is outrageous. You know that? "Oklahoma Area Still Lives With Lead Contamination." There's no money, they say, to clean up these Superfund sites.

"Wipeout" is "The Boston Herald" headline. "Public Safety Trio Axed in Shakeup." That's a word that always scares me, to be honest.

"The Washington Times." "Registration of Muslims, Arabs Halted. Homeland Security Ends Immigration Program."

And, if I can find it, and I have, "The Chicago Sun-Times"' headline. "Arson Investigators Puzzled By Gasoline on Loop Fire Debris." That's that terrible high-rise fire. Weather tomorrow, I don't get it, "minty fresh." That's the weather tomorrow in Chicago.

We'll wrap up the day in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we go tonight, a quick recap of our top story: the videotaped beating over the weekend of a black suspect by Cincinnati police officers. The county coroner's office said today, Nathaniel Jones, who died a short time later, had both cocaine and PCP in his system, along with evidence of heart disease, an enlarged heart.

In addition to the beating, the tape shows Mr. Jones lunging at the officers. Earlier in the program, Cincinnati's mayor said he regretted the loss of life, but believes police acted properly in the case.

Tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT: small things to some, the world to others, sifting through the debris of 9/11 to preserve pieces of history. That's tomorrow on the program.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next.

Good to see you all again. And good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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Coalition Firefight; Captain Could be Dismissed for Sticking up for His Troops>