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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Saddam Captured

Aired December 14, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. On his better days, and they all were better days than today no doubt, Saddam Hussein liked people to refer to him as the lion of Babylon, the anointed one, the glorious leader, the direct descendant of the prophet.
On better days, that's what he liked and that's what people did because on his better days, he was quite persuasive. Tonight, he's just one more card in an ever decreasing deck of cards, the ace of spades. Defiant, we are told. Unrepentant, as you expect. But most importantly, captured and humiliated.

It is a one story program tonight, with many sidebars, but it all comes back to a single sentence, "We got him." And CNN's Jamie McIntyre starts us off with the headline. Jamie?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, for months, Aaron, it looked like the U.S. military was just a step behind Saddam Hussein. Today, they were a step ahead, as operation Red Dawn was right on.

BROWN: It was. Jamie, we'll get back to you at the top tonight. Tikrit next, a city with a somewhat complicated view of a hometown boy turned evil, if you will.

CNN's Nic Robertson is there for us tonight. So Nic, the headline?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Saddam Hussein picked up, hiding in a hole, almost within sight of his former presidential palace in Tikrit. The people of this town that were once loyal to him, still loyal, upset about his capture -- Aaron?

BROWN: Nic, thank you. It was -- had to be an interesting last 24 hours or so for the president and the White House. Our senior White House correspondent John King with the watch tonight.

John, a headline?

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was later called at a turning point for the Iraqi people. Not necessarily, he said, for the military mission.

BROWN: John, thank you very much. And finally, to CNN's Jane Arraf in Baghdad, where for a change tonight, the gunfire seems to be mainly about celebration. Jane, a headline? JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, of all the things that Iraqis would never have imagined a year ago, seeing Saddam Hussein like this, defeated and humiliated, might be near the top of that list.

BROWN: Jane, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly. Also, coming up on this expanded edition of "NEWSNIGHT", we'll talk with the former Pentagon spokesperson, Torie Clark. Then what Saddam said after his capture. We talked with a "TIME" magazine correspondent about some fascinating details there.

Also, will the capture of America's old nemesis really mean an end to the troubles in Iraq? It will end this hour and will end the next hour, too, with Monday morning papers, a double dose of your favorite segment or mine. Actually, they are fascinating today. All that and much more in the two hours ahead.

We begin with the obvious. A little more than eight months after the statues of Saddam Hussein started coming down, eight months into a tough and costly occupation, the man himself has now been caught. Whether it turns out he had a principle role to play in the resistance, or was just a powerful symbol of defiance and fear, the hope tonight is that Saddam Hussein is now on his way to becoming neither. And perhaps just as significantly, as a prisoner, not a martyr.

In any case, his journey began at about 8:30 local time last night, not far from his hometown in a hole in the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): He could have been in 1,000 places. He was captured in this one. A six foot deep tunnel covered by dirt, Styrofoam and a rug.

PAUL BREMER, CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATOR: Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.

(APPLAUSE)

BROWN: This is what Saddam looked like now, scraggly, salt and pepper beard. The American military said he offered no resistance, though he had a pistol. He was found with $750,000, U.S. dollars, cash.

MAJ. GEN. RAY ODIERNO, COMMANDER, 4th INFANTRY DIVISION: I think it's rather ironic that he was in a hole in the ground, across the river from these great palaces that he's built, where he robbed all the money from the Iraqi people.

BROWN: It was these troops, member of the Army's 4th Infantry Division, who captured Saddam in an operation called Red Dawn. They had received information about his whereabouts from family members close to him.

ODIERNO: As we continue to conduct raids and capture people, we got more and more information on the families that were somewhat close to Saddam Hussein.

BROWN: Once the news became known, there were celebrations on the streets of Baghdad. And both relief and deep satisfaction in London and in Washington.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The capture of this man was crucial to the rise of a free Iraq. It marks the end of the road for him and for all who bullied and killed in his name.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The shadow of Saddam is finally lifted from the Iraqi people. We give thanks for that. But let this be more than a cause simply for rejoicing. Let it be a moment to reach out and to reconcile.

BROWN: American commanders said they believed Saddam has had as many as two dozen similar hiding places across Iraq. He was quickly flown to Baghdad after his capture. He's already had a first round of interrogation and faces a public trial sometime down the road.

BREMER: This is a great day in Iraq's history. For decades, hundreds of thousands of you suffered at the hands of this cruel man. For decades, Saddam Hussein divided you citizens against each other. For decades, he threatened and attacked your neighbors. Those days are over forever.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the big picture. And now the pieces. And is often the case, it is in those little pieces, the small details, that make this story, any story, fascinating.

First, the operation itself. It was both long in the making. And in the end, as these things often turn out to be, quick to come together. Reporting the details, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Operation Red Dawn was born at 10:50 a.m. Saturday Iraq time.

LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ: We received intelligence on the possible whereabouts of Saddam Hussein. Two likely locations were identified near the town of Adwar.

MCINTYRE: The two locations just south of Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit are code named Wolverine 1 and Wolverine 2. By 5:00 p.m., the final piece of the puzzle falls in place. Actionable intelligence from an Iraqi informant.

An hour later, 6:00 p.m., Raider brigades, 600 soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division, moves quickly under the cover of darkness, backing up this special operations task force 121, spearheading the hunt.

The soldiers are after a high value target, but many don't know it's Saddam Hussein. By 8:00 p.m., the targeted areas are secured, but Saddam hasn't been found. The area is sealed and a meticulous search gets underway.

ODIERNO: Hussein was found hiding in underground crawl space at 8:26 p.m. Soldiers captured him without incident. He was in the middle -- bottom of a hole. So there's no way he could fight back. So he was just -- fought like a rat.

MCINTYRE: 9:15 p.m., a helicopter whisks the captured dictator to a secure area, which Pentagon sources say is the Baghdad International Airport. There, former regime members already in custody ID him. And he's given a medical exam.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: It would be another hour and a half before the top U.S. commander, General John Abuzaid, would have enough confidence to inform the Pentagon that Saddam Hussein's fugitive days appeared at an end. And amazingly, the news held until 5:00 this morning, when it was first reported by CNN -- Aaron?

BROWN: The -- why so -- this is not meant critically at anyone, just in the detail here, why so long between the time they got into Baghdad and they showed him off to people, and obviously they were certain what they had in the time they -- the story finally broke?

MCINTYRE: Well, I was talking to U.S. officials in the early hours of this morning. And they were being very, very cautious. They wanted to -- two things. One, they wanted to be absolutely sure that they didn't make a premature announcement, that it turned out that it wasn't Saddam Hussein. And the other thing was they wanted Ambassador Paul Bremer and General Sanchez to be able to make the announcement in Baghdad at 7:00 local time. And they were trying to keep a lid on it until then.

BROWN: It actually would be interesting to know how they planned to do this, because there were a lot of eyeballs on that early morning 7:00, whatever time it actually came off, that wouldn't have been on it, had it not leaked.

MCINTYRE: Absolutely. It did -- certainly heighten the tension. And the first feel we really got of it was when our reporter in Tikrit called in to say that the U.S. troops coming back from a raid, what could have been a routine raid, were in a very celebratory mood, taking pictures of each other, slapping each other on the back, even passing out cigars. That was a big hint that something big was up.

BROWN: Jamie, thanks a lot. Jamie McIntyre worked on the Pentagon side of the story.

On now to Tikrit, where until recently, the Army's 4th ID has had a fairly rough go of it. In addition to hostility from the locals, it's in a very tough area, it has come under criticism for, as a Marine commander put it earlier this week, too much kicking down doors and other rough stuff.

But valid or not, there's plenty of disagreement on that score. You don't hear much criticism about the 4th ID tonight. Reporting the story, CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): The first to know and the first to celebrate, these U.S. soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division returning to base hours after capturing Saddam Hussein.

Almost a day later, winning praise from their commander.

ODIERNO: I just want everyone to know how proud I am of the great soldiers of the task force and the division.

ROBERTSON: The two star general showing pictures of how his troops raided the remote farmhouse where Saddam Hussein was found hiding in a hole. And detailing how intelligence gleaned from Hussein loyalists led to his capture.

ODIERNO: As we continued to conduct raids and capture people, we got more and more information on the families that were somewhat close to Saddam Hussein.

ROBERTSON: On the streets around the U.S. military base in the former dictator's hometown of Tikrit, none of the joy being expressed elsewhere.

"Saddam Hussein is just an ordinary man," he says. "Governments fall and rise. This new authority is no use at all. We were a million times better of under Saddam Hussein."

"It will have no effect on the resistance," this man adds. "They are not fighting for Saddam. They are fighting for Iraq. And Iraq is occupied."

Around Tikrit, U.S. troop patrols continued through the day. None here letting their guard down yet. General Odierno cautious about the reactions in his area of operation, the Sunni Triangle.

ODIERNO: In the background, everything will be very a relief, a sense of relief, I think in most cases. So we'll wait and see what happens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And waiting is what these troops have been good at. And Aaron, it's reward seems to be evident today.

BROWN: Nic, are you surprised he was taken alive?

ROBERTSON: Not too much. I think the Iraqi people have probably been very surprised. I'm not so surprised. I think there was evidence that we've seen over the last few months that Saddam Hussein had made himself into a big brave person during his administration in Iraq, but there are things that come to light following that. The fact that he'd run away, the fact that this two sons had had a shootout. There were other indicators that he perhaps wouldn't go down in a blaze of glory. And that's exactly what happened. He had the gun. He had the opportunity to shoot himself, and he just didn't do it, Aaron.

BROWN: Part of the problem with this question, I think, is the answer depends on which part of the country you're in, whether you're in the north, the central part of the country, or the south. But do you believe that the view of the Americans or more importantly do Iraqis believe that the view of the Americans has changed, that they are more confident that they are more able to solve all of the other problems that plague the country right now?

ROBERTSON: I'm not sure that Iraqis believe that at the moment, Aaron. There are just too many things that aren't going right. The lines of a gas stations have been getting longer over the last few weeks. It's part of the problem of attacks against the oil refineries, the oil pipelines, part of the problems of importing oil from refined oil from Turkey.

There are other things, the electricity, the security. There are a lot indicators that just aren't working for the Iraqis at the moment. This will boost their confidence in the United States. This will be a very, very positive sign for them.

But in a few days, I think we can expect to be voicing all those other concerns we've been hearing over the last few months -- Aaron?

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson, who's in Tikrit tonight.

In the end, capturing Saddam Hussein as many have predicted, along came down to someone who knew him, ratting him out, not by choice, we're told, but giving him up all the same.

Friends of the family, it is said, though that could mean less than it seems. The intelligence side of this story reported by CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The man who urged supporters to fight to the death not only gave himself up without firing a shot, say U.S. officials, but he's now answering questions from American interrogators. Though officials say he has not provided any new information thus far.

Saddam is willing, officials say, he could be the best possible source for the CIA's David Kay, the man in charge of looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

In a statement, House Intelligence Committee chairman Porter Goss said, "With this capture, many lingering questions will be answered. But we cannot forget that Saddam has been engaged in deceit and deception for decades."

How did they find Saddam? It was low tech human intelligence, U.S. officials say, actionable intelligence painstakingly gathered.

BUSH: The operation was based on the superb work of intelligence analysts, who found the dictator's footprints in a vast country.

ENSOR: The information did not come from a tip. U.S. officials pulled in former Saddam bodyguards and members of Tikriti families close to his regime for intense interrogation. Information extracted from one person led to another.

MAJ. GEN. RAYMOND ODIERNO, U.S. ARMY: Over the last 10 days or so, we brought in about five to 10 members of these families, who then were able to give us even more information. And finally, we got the ultimate information from one of these individuals.

ENSOR: Once captured, Saddam was shown to some other prisoners, like Tariq Aziz, his former senior aide, who eventually confirmed his identity beyond a shadow of a doubt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Though Saddam has given up nothing new so far, the interrogation that has been conducted, intelligence officials say prisoners that do talk, do exchange give and take with the interrogators like he already has, generally start giving up useful information eventually -- Aaron?

BROWN: Let's talk for a minute about the degree to which he is cooperating or not cooperating, because I think that there is some -- well I think different people are saying different things, different sources are saying different things.

We know, or at least we believe we know that when he was asked who he was, he readily identified himself. That much I think we all agree on, right?

ENSOR: That's right, he did.

BROWN: Okay. Beyond that, is he defiant as some have said?

ENSOR: He is said to be defiant in some of the comments that he makes. He is answering the questions. He is listening to and answering them so far, giving basically the rote answers. What do you mean weapons of mass destruction? We don't have any Iraq, that sort of thing.

But officials I've spoken to say when prisoners start talking right away, they generally start giving useful information at some point down the road. And they fully expect that to happen.


Aired December 14, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening, everyone. On his better days, and they all were better days than today no doubt, Saddam Hussein liked people to refer to him as the lion of Babylon, the anointed one, the glorious leader, the direct descendant of the prophet.
On better days, that's what he liked and that's what people did because on his better days, he was quite persuasive. Tonight, he's just one more card in an ever decreasing deck of cards, the ace of spades. Defiant, we are told. Unrepentant, as you expect. But most importantly, captured and humiliated.

It is a one story program tonight, with many sidebars, but it all comes back to a single sentence, "We got him." And CNN's Jamie McIntyre starts us off with the headline. Jamie?

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SENIOR PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, for months, Aaron, it looked like the U.S. military was just a step behind Saddam Hussein. Today, they were a step ahead, as operation Red Dawn was right on.

BROWN: It was. Jamie, we'll get back to you at the top tonight. Tikrit next, a city with a somewhat complicated view of a hometown boy turned evil, if you will.

CNN's Nic Robertson is there for us tonight. So Nic, the headline?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Saddam Hussein picked up, hiding in a hole, almost within sight of his former presidential palace in Tikrit. The people of this town that were once loyal to him, still loyal, upset about his capture -- Aaron?

BROWN: Nic, thank you. It was -- had to be an interesting last 24 hours or so for the president and the White House. Our senior White House correspondent John King with the watch tonight.

John, a headline?

JOHN KING, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: (UNINTELLIGIBLE) was later called at a turning point for the Iraqi people. Not necessarily, he said, for the military mission.

BROWN: John, thank you very much. And finally, to CNN's Jane Arraf in Baghdad, where for a change tonight, the gunfire seems to be mainly about celebration. Jane, a headline? JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, of all the things that Iraqis would never have imagined a year ago, seeing Saddam Hussein like this, defeated and humiliated, might be near the top of that list.

BROWN: Jane, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly. Also, coming up on this expanded edition of "NEWSNIGHT", we'll talk with the former Pentagon spokesperson, Torie Clark. Then what Saddam said after his capture. We talked with a "TIME" magazine correspondent about some fascinating details there.

Also, will the capture of America's old nemesis really mean an end to the troubles in Iraq? It will end this hour and will end the next hour, too, with Monday morning papers, a double dose of your favorite segment or mine. Actually, they are fascinating today. All that and much more in the two hours ahead.

We begin with the obvious. A little more than eight months after the statues of Saddam Hussein started coming down, eight months into a tough and costly occupation, the man himself has now been caught. Whether it turns out he had a principle role to play in the resistance, or was just a powerful symbol of defiance and fear, the hope tonight is that Saddam Hussein is now on his way to becoming neither. And perhaps just as significantly, as a prisoner, not a martyr.

In any case, his journey began at about 8:30 local time last night, not far from his hometown in a hole in the ground.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): He could have been in 1,000 places. He was captured in this one. A six foot deep tunnel covered by dirt, Styrofoam and a rug.

PAUL BREMER, CIVILIAN ADMINISTRATOR: Ladies and gentlemen, we got him.

(APPLAUSE)

BROWN: This is what Saddam looked like now, scraggly, salt and pepper beard. The American military said he offered no resistance, though he had a pistol. He was found with $750,000, U.S. dollars, cash.

MAJ. GEN. RAY ODIERNO, COMMANDER, 4th INFANTRY DIVISION: I think it's rather ironic that he was in a hole in the ground, across the river from these great palaces that he's built, where he robbed all the money from the Iraqi people.

BROWN: It was these troops, member of the Army's 4th Infantry Division, who captured Saddam in an operation called Red Dawn. They had received information about his whereabouts from family members close to him.

ODIERNO: As we continue to conduct raids and capture people, we got more and more information on the families that were somewhat close to Saddam Hussein.

BROWN: Once the news became known, there were celebrations on the streets of Baghdad. And both relief and deep satisfaction in London and in Washington.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The capture of this man was crucial to the rise of a free Iraq. It marks the end of the road for him and for all who bullied and killed in his name.

TONY BLAIR, BRITISH PRIME MINISTER: The shadow of Saddam is finally lifted from the Iraqi people. We give thanks for that. But let this be more than a cause simply for rejoicing. Let it be a moment to reach out and to reconcile.

BROWN: American commanders said they believed Saddam has had as many as two dozen similar hiding places across Iraq. He was quickly flown to Baghdad after his capture. He's already had a first round of interrogation and faces a public trial sometime down the road.

BREMER: This is a great day in Iraq's history. For decades, hundreds of thousands of you suffered at the hands of this cruel man. For decades, Saddam Hussein divided you citizens against each other. For decades, he threatened and attacked your neighbors. Those days are over forever.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's the big picture. And now the pieces. And is often the case, it is in those little pieces, the small details, that make this story, any story, fascinating.

First, the operation itself. It was both long in the making. And in the end, as these things often turn out to be, quick to come together. Reporting the details, CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Operation Red Dawn was born at 10:50 a.m. Saturday Iraq time.

LT. GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ: We received intelligence on the possible whereabouts of Saddam Hussein. Two likely locations were identified near the town of Adwar.

MCINTYRE: The two locations just south of Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit are code named Wolverine 1 and Wolverine 2. By 5:00 p.m., the final piece of the puzzle falls in place. Actionable intelligence from an Iraqi informant.

An hour later, 6:00 p.m., Raider brigades, 600 soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division, moves quickly under the cover of darkness, backing up this special operations task force 121, spearheading the hunt.

The soldiers are after a high value target, but many don't know it's Saddam Hussein. By 8:00 p.m., the targeted areas are secured, but Saddam hasn't been found. The area is sealed and a meticulous search gets underway.

ODIERNO: Hussein was found hiding in underground crawl space at 8:26 p.m. Soldiers captured him without incident. He was in the middle -- bottom of a hole. So there's no way he could fight back. So he was just -- fought like a rat.

MCINTYRE: 9:15 p.m., a helicopter whisks the captured dictator to a secure area, which Pentagon sources say is the Baghdad International Airport. There, former regime members already in custody ID him. And he's given a medical exam.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: It would be another hour and a half before the top U.S. commander, General John Abuzaid, would have enough confidence to inform the Pentagon that Saddam Hussein's fugitive days appeared at an end. And amazingly, the news held until 5:00 this morning, when it was first reported by CNN -- Aaron?

BROWN: The -- why so -- this is not meant critically at anyone, just in the detail here, why so long between the time they got into Baghdad and they showed him off to people, and obviously they were certain what they had in the time they -- the story finally broke?

MCINTYRE: Well, I was talking to U.S. officials in the early hours of this morning. And they were being very, very cautious. They wanted to -- two things. One, they wanted to be absolutely sure that they didn't make a premature announcement, that it turned out that it wasn't Saddam Hussein. And the other thing was they wanted Ambassador Paul Bremer and General Sanchez to be able to make the announcement in Baghdad at 7:00 local time. And they were trying to keep a lid on it until then.

BROWN: It actually would be interesting to know how they planned to do this, because there were a lot of eyeballs on that early morning 7:00, whatever time it actually came off, that wouldn't have been on it, had it not leaked.

MCINTYRE: Absolutely. It did -- certainly heighten the tension. And the first feel we really got of it was when our reporter in Tikrit called in to say that the U.S. troops coming back from a raid, what could have been a routine raid, were in a very celebratory mood, taking pictures of each other, slapping each other on the back, even passing out cigars. That was a big hint that something big was up.

BROWN: Jamie, thanks a lot. Jamie McIntyre worked on the Pentagon side of the story.

On now to Tikrit, where until recently, the Army's 4th ID has had a fairly rough go of it. In addition to hostility from the locals, it's in a very tough area, it has come under criticism for, as a Marine commander put it earlier this week, too much kicking down doors and other rough stuff.

But valid or not, there's plenty of disagreement on that score. You don't hear much criticism about the 4th ID tonight. Reporting the story, CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): The first to know and the first to celebrate, these U.S. soldiers from the 4th Infantry Division returning to base hours after capturing Saddam Hussein.

Almost a day later, winning praise from their commander.

ODIERNO: I just want everyone to know how proud I am of the great soldiers of the task force and the division.

ROBERTSON: The two star general showing pictures of how his troops raided the remote farmhouse where Saddam Hussein was found hiding in a hole. And detailing how intelligence gleaned from Hussein loyalists led to his capture.

ODIERNO: As we continued to conduct raids and capture people, we got more and more information on the families that were somewhat close to Saddam Hussein.

ROBERTSON: On the streets around the U.S. military base in the former dictator's hometown of Tikrit, none of the joy being expressed elsewhere.

"Saddam Hussein is just an ordinary man," he says. "Governments fall and rise. This new authority is no use at all. We were a million times better of under Saddam Hussein."

"It will have no effect on the resistance," this man adds. "They are not fighting for Saddam. They are fighting for Iraq. And Iraq is occupied."

Around Tikrit, U.S. troop patrols continued through the day. None here letting their guard down yet. General Odierno cautious about the reactions in his area of operation, the Sunni Triangle.

ODIERNO: In the background, everything will be very a relief, a sense of relief, I think in most cases. So we'll wait and see what happens.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And waiting is what these troops have been good at. And Aaron, it's reward seems to be evident today.

BROWN: Nic, are you surprised he was taken alive?

ROBERTSON: Not too much. I think the Iraqi people have probably been very surprised. I'm not so surprised. I think there was evidence that we've seen over the last few months that Saddam Hussein had made himself into a big brave person during his administration in Iraq, but there are things that come to light following that. The fact that he'd run away, the fact that this two sons had had a shootout. There were other indicators that he perhaps wouldn't go down in a blaze of glory. And that's exactly what happened. He had the gun. He had the opportunity to shoot himself, and he just didn't do it, Aaron.

BROWN: Part of the problem with this question, I think, is the answer depends on which part of the country you're in, whether you're in the north, the central part of the country, or the south. But do you believe that the view of the Americans or more importantly do Iraqis believe that the view of the Americans has changed, that they are more confident that they are more able to solve all of the other problems that plague the country right now?

ROBERTSON: I'm not sure that Iraqis believe that at the moment, Aaron. There are just too many things that aren't going right. The lines of a gas stations have been getting longer over the last few weeks. It's part of the problem of attacks against the oil refineries, the oil pipelines, part of the problems of importing oil from refined oil from Turkey.

There are other things, the electricity, the security. There are a lot indicators that just aren't working for the Iraqis at the moment. This will boost their confidence in the United States. This will be a very, very positive sign for them.

But in a few days, I think we can expect to be voicing all those other concerns we've been hearing over the last few months -- Aaron?

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson, who's in Tikrit tonight.

In the end, capturing Saddam Hussein as many have predicted, along came down to someone who knew him, ratting him out, not by choice, we're told, but giving him up all the same.

Friends of the family, it is said, though that could mean less than it seems. The intelligence side of this story reported by CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The man who urged supporters to fight to the death not only gave himself up without firing a shot, say U.S. officials, but he's now answering questions from American interrogators. Though officials say he has not provided any new information thus far.

Saddam is willing, officials say, he could be the best possible source for the CIA's David Kay, the man in charge of looking for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

In a statement, House Intelligence Committee chairman Porter Goss said, "With this capture, many lingering questions will be answered. But we cannot forget that Saddam has been engaged in deceit and deception for decades."

How did they find Saddam? It was low tech human intelligence, U.S. officials say, actionable intelligence painstakingly gathered.

BUSH: The operation was based on the superb work of intelligence analysts, who found the dictator's footprints in a vast country.

ENSOR: The information did not come from a tip. U.S. officials pulled in former Saddam bodyguards and members of Tikriti families close to his regime for intense interrogation. Information extracted from one person led to another.

MAJ. GEN. RAYMOND ODIERNO, U.S. ARMY: Over the last 10 days or so, we brought in about five to 10 members of these families, who then were able to give us even more information. And finally, we got the ultimate information from one of these individuals.

ENSOR: Once captured, Saddam was shown to some other prisoners, like Tariq Aziz, his former senior aide, who eventually confirmed his identity beyond a shadow of a doubt.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Though Saddam has given up nothing new so far, the interrogation that has been conducted, intelligence officials say prisoners that do talk, do exchange give and take with the interrogators like he already has, generally start giving up useful information eventually -- Aaron?

BROWN: Let's talk for a minute about the degree to which he is cooperating or not cooperating, because I think that there is some -- well I think different people are saying different things, different sources are saying different things.

We know, or at least we believe we know that when he was asked who he was, he readily identified himself. That much I think we all agree on, right?

ENSOR: That's right, he did.

BROWN: Okay. Beyond that, is he defiant as some have said?

ENSOR: He is said to be defiant in some of the comments that he makes. He is answering the questions. He is listening to and answering them so far, giving basically the rote answers. What do you mean weapons of mass destruction? We don't have any Iraq, that sort of thing.

But officials I've spoken to say when prisoners start talking right away, they generally start giving useful information at some point down the road. And they fully expect that to happen.