Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

What's Next for Saddam?; Interview With James Risen

Aired December 16, 2003 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, HOST: We have talked so many times of the crimes of Saddam Hussein. We have seen all the mass graves, the thousands of people buried there, another few thousand here. But somehow hearing of one crime against one person makes it all more real in an odd sort of way.
A guest you'll hear from tonight. You will hear from him as he calmly says how he was arrested and tortured not once, not twice, but three different times. He tells his story, where also telling with his meeting with Saddam over the weekend, the questions he asked, the answers Saddam gave. We can and should continue to debate the policy and the timing of the war and all the rest, but we ought not forget who this man Saddam Hussein was and what he did, and how, despite all that is troubling about Iraq today, and there is plenty, it is still a world better than it was.

But catching Saddam hasn't brought calm to Iraq. So we go first to the Pentagon and CNN's Barbara Starr.

Barbara, a headline from you tonight.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, as Saddam Hussein settles into captivity, Iraq does remain a complex environment for U.S. troops.

BROWN: Today proved that. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

Next to Iraq, and a day that saw a major raid that netted another big prize. Nic Robertson is there.

Nice, a headline.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that prize a high-value Fedayeen target and 73 associates in what could have been a Fedayeen-run bomb-making cell in Tikrit. Another of those bombs went off, injuring three soldiers.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

Politics next and the beating Howard Dean is taking on Iraq and foreign policy generally. Call this one a friendly-fire incident. CNN's Kelly Wallace on that for us tonight.

So Kelly, a headline from you.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Howard Dean stumping throughout the Southwest, finding himself the target of a new Democratic attack ad. This ad accusing himself of not being able to compete with President Bush on foreign policy. Dean says the attacks, though, will not hurt his campaign -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you.

Finally, to Virginia and the sniper trial. CNN's Jeanne Meserve had the watch in the courtroom today and is with us tonight.

Jeanne, a headline.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In closing arguments, the prosecution says Lee Malvo was not insane at the time of the sniper shootings. The defense says he was. The jury must now weigh their arguments and weeks of testimony and evidence and reach their own conclusion.

Back to you.

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also ahead on the program tonight, an FDA panel gives the go- ahead to Plan B, the first over-the-counter morning after birth control pill. But the FDA still must act.

In "Segment 7" tonight, a very powerful homecoming. An Iraqi exile who just went home, just as the dictator who terrorized him and his family was captured.

And for dessert, of course, a giant helping of morning papers and a bit of rooster as well. All of that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin with Iraq. When the first frames of video came in of Saddam Hussein in custody, it was hard not to wonder what the next pictures out of Iraq would be, what the next few days would bring. Tonight things have started to take shape. There is progress against the insurgency to report, defiance on the part of Saddam, and a messy and mixed reaction from the people he once ruled.

We begin tonight with CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At a pro-Saddam Hussein rally, a gun battle breaks out. In Fallujah, a train carrying supplies to U.S. forces is attacked. The Iraqi people still absorbing what it means for their former leader to be in captivity.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has asked the Central Intelligence Agency to oversee what could be years of questioning of Saddam Hussein. CIA director George Tenet will be in charge.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: He and his people will be the regulator over the interrogations. Who will do it, the questions that will get posed, the management of the information that flows from those interrogations.

STARR: If they find Saddam Hussein was directing the insurgency that has killed dozens of U.S. troops, Rumsfeld held open the possibility the U.S. may take a role in Saddam Hussein's prosecution. The Pentagon also defending these pictures, saying it was no violation of the Geneva Convention, which prohibits displaying prisoners.

RUMSFELD: If lives can be saved by physical proof that that man is off the street, out of commission, never to return, then we opt for saving lives. And in no way can that be considered even up on the edge of the Geneva Convention protections.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: And Aaron, the secretary also said that Saddam Hussein is now, in his word, "resigned" to his fate as a captive. One final postscript today, you'll remember those pictures, of course, of the physicians taking a swab from Saddam Hussein's mouth, a bit of saliva for a DNA test. Well, the official DNA results came back today and officially it is Saddam Hussein that they're holding -- Aaron.

BROWN: Wouldn't that have been a kick in the pants, though? Do they really anticipate the questioning going on for years?

STARR: Well, they don't know. That's a very interesting point. I mean, you know, so far, when you look at some of the al Qaeda prisoners they've had, the track record has been, Secretary Rumsfeld says, that they question the people extensively for some extended period of time, months at least, and then suddenly they give up the goods. No one's really sure why.

And it was quite interesting today, Secretary Rumsfeld was asked what motivation, what might motivate Saddam Hussein to actually tell the truth? What might motivate him to talk if he understands that he would be facing a death penalty, perhaps in an Iraqi tribunal? The secretary saying he didn't know what would motivate Saddam. That would be a question he would look at.

The only potential answer he offered is if there was something perhaps that would benefit Saddam's immediate family if he was to talk. So very early days. No one's really predicting at this point how it all might go.

BROWN: Barbara, thank you. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon tonight.

More now on the question of how you go about interrogating a dictator, which as Barbara Starr just reported, will now be overseen by a team from the CIA. James Risen is reporting the story for "The New York Times" already filed for tomorrow. He joins us tonight from Washington.

Good to see you again.

JAMES RISEN, "NEW YORK TIMES": Hi. BROWN: Just on this question of what they learned or what they are learning from their interrogations of al Qaeda biggies and how that might help them here, do you have anything on that?

RISEN: Yes. I think one of the interesting questions is why the Pentagon turned Saddam over to the CIA. And I think the reason is because the CIA has been the ones handling almost entirely by themselves the interrogations of top al Qaeda leaders, like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and others like that.

They have not been held as widely as assumed. Those top leaders have not been held at Guantanamo. They've been held in secret locations around the world in groups of one or two, away from military interrogators, away from kind of a broad number of other agencies. And the CIA has learned how to do those very quietly and very efficiently, and I think -- so they've decided to handle Saddam the way they've handled the top al Qaeda leaders.

BROWN: So far, he chats with them, it sounds like. He doesn't give them what they want, which may or may not be the seem as he's not telling the truth.

RISEN: Well, I think there's a little bit of dispute in the first day between different administration officials about exactly the status of what he said so far. Some people have told us that he has, in fact, talked about some substance.

He did deny having any weapons of mass destruction. He's denied leading the insurgency. He's denied knowing the status of Scott Speicher, the Navy pilot.

At the same time that we've been told he said these things, other administration officials are denying that he's saying anything. And I think there is some dispute, some disappointment within the administration that maybe he's saying things that aren't really helpful to the Bush administration.

BROWN: That's going to be -- I don't want to turn this into a political discussion, but ultimately I suppose it's going to end up that way. He could be telling the truth. I'm not suggesting he is or he's not. But he could be telling the truth and not saying what they want him to say, and that's a problem.

RISEN: Exactly. And I think there's some -- what I've heard today is that in the first day or so, after he was captured, the product of his debriefings was fairly widely known within the Pentagon and the intelligence community, and then we began and other media outlets began to report on what he was saying.

Today, we were told that they were narrowing dramatically the distribution list about his debriefings. And it's going to be much more closely held in the coming days, I believe.

BROWN: Do you know, can you describe at all how he's being interrogated? I mean, what methods they're using, where he's being kept, how often he eats? Is he seeing anyone else? Do you know any of that?

RISEN: Not in detail, no, I don't. But I believe that what I was told today, or at least indicated to me, was that, while the CIA has learned a lot about how to deal with al Qaeda leaders, using behavior modification techniques that are in some ways short of torture, that they're going to be more careful in how they deal with Saddam.

They're not going to use the same coercive techniques, I don't believe, from what I've been led to believe, with him that they used with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or Abu Zubaydah because they know that in the end he's going to have to face some kind of court. Whereas Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed will probably never see the light of day again.

BROWN: Jim, it's good to see you again. We look forward to reading the piece in the paper tomorrow. Thank you.

RISEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Jim Risen of "The New York Times."

We alluded at the top of the program to the complicated state of play in Iraq since the capture of Saddam as if it were a picture of simplicity before. It certainly wasn't. But military commanders say they like the scene a whole lot better today.

They now have a new batch of solid intelligence to work with, they claim, momentum on their side. And tonight another victory.

For the latest on that and other developments of the day, we turn once again to CNN's Nic Robertson, who is still in Tikrit -- Nic.

ROBERTSON: Aaron, that raid you referred to came at 4:30 in the morning in Samarra, 25 miles south of here. Coalition troops were looking for a high-value target. They found him at his house.

He is believed to be a cell leader, a Fedayeen financier. In his house along with him were 73 young men. We are told they were all young men, all of military age. We were told there were no women and no children in that house.

Along with all these people, and the Fedayeen financier, were armaments, 135 pounds of gun powder, detonation caps, artillery shells, mortar rounds, and all of the equipment, we are told, for making these improvised explosive devices, the roadsides bombs that are proved so deadly against the U.S. and coalition troops throughout Iraq. This find is important, coalition officials say, because they believe they may have found a bomb-making cell. And that is important in Samarra because there have been many, many attacks against coalition troops there.

In Tikrit today, there was a similar attack, as well as outbreaks of protests on the streets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ROBERTSON (voice-over): Raising schoolbooks bearing Saddam Hussein's picture, children angrily denounce President Bush. The apparently organized protest in Adwar, where Hussein was captured. "He was our pride, he was our beloved leader," she screams.

A few miles away on the outskirts of Hussein's hometown, Tikrit, police search for his hard-core supporters. This police officer, who doesn't want to be identified, telling me, since Hussein's capture, security has worsened, although he thinks it will improve with time. "Most in this town," he says, "opposed to Hussein's capture, and those who aren't remain quiet."

In the center of Tikrit, plenty of people want to talk when we show up. "Saddam's capture is no good," says Nori (ph), the cigarette vendor. "What are the people celebrating for?" adds his friend Hussein (ph). "Celebrating their shame and occupation?"

As we talk, helicopters circle, and U.S. tanks roll by. A massive show of U.S. force following violent demonstrations the day before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's been some demonstrations. We're just trying to let the people know and reassure them that everything is fine and we're just out here to protect them and to help them establish the economy and get back on its feet.

ROBERTSON: Along with the U.S. troops, Iraqi soldiers from the Civil Defense Corps. "Saddam's relatives sold him," out says this soldier. "The demonstrations will do these people no good. Saddam Hussein's gone."

Away from the crowds, and close to the patrolling troops, passerby, Abu Muhammad (ph), is brave enough to speak his mind.

"In general, it's a good thing Saddam is gone," he says, "and my view is the same as everyone else's."

(on camera): Even with shows of force like this, the dangers for U.S. troops here remain very real. Just hours before this patrol went out, three U.S. soldiers were wounded by a roadside bomb, two of them seriously.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And commanders here say they are hoping -- they hope this raid in Samarra, just south of Tikrit, will be another piece in their information jigsaw, allowing them to reach out from these individuals to other people to begin to roll up more of these cells -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson in Tikrit.

Now to winning the hearts and minds in Paris and Berlin. Hearts and minds and euros. The issue on the table, of course, debt relief for Iraq. To that end, James Baker met today with the French president, Jacques Chirac. The former secretary of state winning a commitment in principle from Mr. Chirac.

He also apparently provided a welcome bit of diplomacy. Said one French observer, "He's a sign the adults are back in Washington, not the ayatollahs."

From there, Mr. Baker traveled on to Germany, which is owed about $5 billion by Iraq. After meeting with Germany's prime minister, the German government also promised to help, but again registered its disagreement over the decision to lock French and German companies out of any contracts for the rebuilding of Iraq.

Still to come on the program: the sniper trial. The jury gets the case in the trial of the accused teenage gunman.

And then an over-the-counter morning after contraceptive gets one step closer to your drug store shelf.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tomorrow, jurors in Virginia will begin in full their deliberations in the second of the sniper cases, the case of Lee Malvo. Was he sane? Was he under the spell of his older accomplice? That's the essential question: did he know right from wrong? That's what the jury must sort out after hearing closing arguments today.

Here's CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): "That is this defendant's handiwork," said prosecutor Robert Horan, as the jury viewed a horrific photo of Linda Franklin with half her head blown away.

LEE BOYD MALVO, DEFENDANT: We are the people who are causing the killing in your area.

MESERVE: Recordings of Lee Malvo's own voice, sometimes laughing, imitating a lawn mower used by Horan in his recitation of the random killings, all, he said, for $10 million. "Malvo did not suffer from a mental disease," argued Horan, "and knew right from wrong."

He played excerpts of Malvo's confessions to police, saying such detail could only have been provided by the trigger man. "There can't be any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, that he was the shooter," said Horan.

Where Horan characterized Malvo and John Muhammad as "peas in a pod," defense attorney Michael Arif maintained that Malvo himself was a victim. An abandoned child who attached himself to Muhammad and had his entire identity subsumed. "He became John Muhammad," said Arif. "He could no more have separated from John Muhammad than you separate from your shadow on a sunny day.: That, said Arif, left Malvo legally insane. "Right is what John Muhammad said it was, wrong is what John Muhammad said it was." Arif said Malvo confessed to the nighttime Franklin shooting and other murders only to protect Muhammad. "Who takes a shot like that? A man with experience, a man in the military, frankly not a punk kid."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: Arif said, "Adding a life to this pile of death does not solve anything. It is just revenge." Horan urged the jury to use its common sense and convict. Deliberations begin in earnest tomorrow morning -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just remind me how long the jury in Muhammad was out.

MESERVE: Oh, you're taxing my memory there. It's already faded for me. I believe they came back with their verdicts for both phases of that trial in less than a day. But I'm not absolutely sure about that.

And this one, there's absolutely no way to predict. Every jury has its own personality. We don't know if they'll be deliberative and take a long time or the opposite and be very quick.

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you very much. Didn't mean to throw you there. I just didn't remember either.

On we go. If it were about any other drug or any other condition, it probably wouldn't get a mention on the program. But the politics of abortion can trump the best views of science and may again here.

An advisory panel to the FDA is recommending that the morning after pill be sold over the counter as easy to obtain as an aspirin, or condom for that matter. To them, the science was clear, but this is but a recommendation to the politically appointed members of the FDA.

Here's our medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The FDA panel agreed with the majority of people testifying that the morning after pill should go over the counter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Making this product available over the counter will decrease the barriers and increase access.

GUPTA: If taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex, the pill, known as Plan B can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus.

But Plan B is also reignating the abortion debate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need greater access to the morning after pill, or emergency contraception.

GUPTA: Those in favor of Plan B going over the counter say a woman has a right to have access to the drug, and it can reduce some of the three million unplanned pregnancies every year in the U.S.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Half of the inintended pregnancies result in abortion. And again, it's estimated that up to 50 percent of these inintended pregnancies could be prevented with the use of emergency contraception.

GUPTA: Those opposed to the drug argue that it's an abortion pill, and it isn't safe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There have been no studies done on the long-term effects of women who take the morning after pill.

GUPTA: This pill is already available without a prescription in 33 countries and five states. Final approval for the U.S. is expected from the FDA in a few months, but the debate will likely continue much longer.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, still bringing out the heavy artillery. Democratic frontrunner Howard Dean takes a pounding from his competitors.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Now to politics and Iraq. The capture of Saddam Hussein has complicated things for all of the Democratic presidential candidates it seems. And that seems especially true for Howard Dean, who was in the crucial swing state of Arizona today, where the former governor of that state and interior secretary, Bruce Babbitt, endorsed him and where Iraq loomed large.

Here's CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next president, Governor Dean.

WALLACE (voice-over): Arizona may seem a world away from the winter presidential primary season, but it's not.

HOWARD DEAN (D), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Boy, it is great to be in Arizona, especially in the winter.

WALLACE: A break from the cold, but no break from the attacks.

NARRATOR: Americans want a president who can face the dangers ahead, but Howard Dean has no military or foreign policy experience. And Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy.

WALLACE: This new ad running in key primary states is sponsored by a Democratic group. In an interview with CNN, Dean blasted the ad as an example of why Democrats have lost elections in the past.

DEAN: We've got these Washington Democrats who think that that's going to win elections. It's not going to win elections, and it doesn't help Democrats. And I think the people behind it ought to be not only be ashamed of themselves, I think they ought to remove themselves from the party.

WALLACE: The verbal assaults kept coming from the other candidates, too.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Howard Dean doesn't think we're safer with this guy in a prison. I'm afraid Howard Dean has climbed into his own spider hole of denial.

WALLACE: Dean stayed above the fray, an attempt, aides say, to cement his frontrunner status.

DEAN: But I think you can lead this country best by moving forward with a positive agenda and not complaining about somebody else's.

WALLACE: But some political observers say the capture of Saddam Hussein won't likely hurt Dean's chances in Arizona, which holds its primary in early February.

BRUCE MERRILL, ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY: The fact that he had the courage to stand up when it wasn't very popular and criticize the president will resonate fairly well in Arizona, where we kind of like people like that.

WALLACE: According to a new poll, Dean has opened up a sizable lead here, with the support of 22 percent of registered Democrats, well ahead of retired General Wesley Clark, with 12 percent, but a large number, 39 percent of registered Democrats, remain undecided.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And it is unclear if these Democratic attacks on Dean will have any impact on those undecided voters. Arizona is one of a handful of states holding a primary right after the kickoff contest in Iowa and in New Hampshire. And that means what happens here could play a role in determining the next Democratic nominee -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Wallace out West tonight.

Lots of interesting questions for the people who cover Dr. Dean and politics. Chris Suellentrop is the deputy Washington bureau chief for slate.com, the chief political reporter as well. And he joins us from Washington.

Nice to see you. What's interesting to me here is that everybody assumes that governor, that the capture of Saddam Hussein is such an enormous moment that it will affect all of these candidates and particularly Governor Dean.

Is it not possible that events will outweigh all of this anyway?

CHRIS SUELLENTROP, SLATE MAGAZINE: Absolutely that's possible. I mean, I'd say in disputably it gives a boost to efforts to beat Howard Dean. But unfortunately for the Democrats that candidate is George W. Bush.

BROWN: Yes. Beyond that I think there's some interesting things going on here. But I'm not sure how long lasting they are.

I think there's a conventional wisdom that Senator Lieberman should get a boost from all of this. He's been the hawk of this campaign and that party.

SUELLENTROP: Well, that's what people are saying. You know, Senator Lieberman is going to get a boost from this.

But I think Senator Lieberman's problem is he doesn't have a party to run in, really. I mean, he's been a strident critic of Howard Dean for a long time. This isn't the first time, he's said -- he had blunt attacks against Governor Dean.

He hasn't moved anywhere. He's done well everywhere except where there's a race. Every time the race moves to a state he drops in the polls.

BROWN: Chris, when you say he doesn't have a party, just put another sentence or two on that. What do you mean?

SUELLENTROP: What I mean is that, you know, I think he's a decent guy. I think he has genuine beliefs, but I mean, the positions he's taking in this election aren't the ones that Democratic primary voters are responding to.

BROWN: Democratic primary voters as opposed to Democratic voters or the electorate at large or what?

SUELLENTROP: Sure. I mean, there could be a mass of independent voter who like Joe Lieberman. I don't think that's -- I don't think that's necessarily true, but I certainly don't think he's appealing to the kind of people that are going to be voting in the primary elections.

BROWN: And you have an interesting analysis, I think, we can kick it around. I'm not sure I agreed with all of it, but an interesting analysis on how this affects General Clark.

SUELLENTROP: Yes, I mean, General Clark is the candidate who's been moving against Governor Dean. He's the guy that, you know, maybe has a chance to be the Comeback Kid in New Hampshire, maybe finish ahead of John Kerry, maybe. He's been moving up. But it's possible that this actually hurts Clark. I'm not saying that it will. But the most recent poll in New Hampshire shows that General Clark is the candidate who is, people believe is the guy that, for lack of a better phrase, clean up the mess in Iraq. And if Iraq isn't a mess anymore, maybe the rationale for his candidacy goes away.

BROWN: All right. Here's where -- I mean, I realize you're not exactly saying this is the absolute. This is an interesting idea or an interesting possibility.

I don't know that anyone two months from now or three months from now expects Iraq to be, you know, Bali or, you know, Honolulu. I mean, it's going to be a messy place.

SUELLENTROP: Well, it is going to be a messy place, and certainly catching Saddam Hussein doesn't make it not a messy place, and no one's disputing that.

BROWN: Is the Dean train, so far out of the station in many respects that we're just sitting here talking about something that's essentially done anyway?

SUELLENTROP: Maybe. It is almost always true that the candidate who leads the national polls and has the most money in December wins the nomination. Howard Dean has both of those things right now.

Having said that, it's worth noting that Bill Clinton didn't win Iowa. He didn't win New Hampshire in 1992, so Iowa and New Hampshire aren't the whole ball game.

BROWN: Just as quickly as you can, do you think he needs -- that there needs be a Dean mistake or some major news development that shakes the race to alter the outcome?

SUELLENTROP: I mean, he's proven he can overcome any obstacle put in his path. That includes his inability to not put -- to prevent himself from putting his foot in his mouth. But he needs to make a mistake. He needs to screw it up in order to lose, I think.

BROWN: Chris, good to have you with us. Thank you very much.

SUELLENTROP: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Our "MONEYLINE" roundup before we go to break. And it begins with the Boeing company and a new airliner announced today. They call it the 7E7 Dreamliner. It's designed to beat the Airbus, not in size or speed, but in fuel efficiency.

The company has to find someone to buy it. It expects to enter service in 2008, and it will be built in Everett, Washington, the big winners in that derby.

California's public employee pension fund is suing the New York Stock Exchange, claiming trading abuses went on for years. CalPERS manages about $100 billion in stock.

Two units of Halliburton have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. These are not the divisions doing work in Iraq. They're the ones now settling claims for injuries due to asbestos.

Consumer prices fell in November, fell by 0.2 percent. This, coupled with better than expected numbers on housing construction, sent the markets higher again today. Just about every one of the indexes went up, or the indices, with the Dow Industrials leading the way.

Still to come on the program, "Facing Down Saddam." We talk with a member of the Iraqi Governing Council who faced Saddam in his cell.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's fair to say the desire to face our tormenters, to confront those who caused us misery is universal. So, too, is the desire to hear remorse.

Last weekend, four men who suffered greatly under Saddam Hussein got half their wish. Hours after Saddam's capture, they were allowed to visit him.

Mowafak Al-Rubaie, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, was one of those men.

He fled Iraq in '79, after being arrested and tortured by Saddam's secret police. We talked with him earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Mr. Rubaie, start -- just describe the Saddam you saw the other day. What did he look like?

MUWAFAK AL-RUBAIE, IRAQI GOVERNING COUNCIL: Well, a broken man. Irritable. Very demoralized. I think that he's psychologically ruined.

BROWN: Were you in the same room with him or were you talking to him from another room?

AL-RUBAIE: Well, it was in the same room and half a meter away from me. He was sitting on the edge of his bed, and I was sitting on a chair.

And I started bombarding him with questions, and asking him about the crimes he has committed against the Iraqi people.

BROWN: Talk to me for just a second about what was going through your mind when you walked in and saw him.

AL-RUBAIE: It went through my mind, it was working sort of in a very fast way. Because I went to the torture chamber in 1974 and in 1976, and in 1979. And the last time was absolute murder, because I was not released until I was terminally ill, with the acute renal shutdown. Both kidneys stopped working, and I was blown up.

And when I was released, it was -- I was basically terminally ill. But thank goodness, I survived that incident and went with a one-day ticket to London.

BROWN: Was there inside of you rage, anger? How would you describe the emotion that was going on in you?

AL-RUBAIE: Well, when I first went into that room, I was curious. I wanted to verify this is the true Saddam Hussein; this is Saddam Hussein. So that when I come out of the room and tell my people that, be rest assured that this is Saddam Hussein. That was the reason why I went in.

But when I came out of that room, I can tell you, I was outraged. I was very angry. I was really angry. Because the reason why, because he was so patronizing, so intimidating, so humiliating to the Iraqi people.

He was referring to the Iraqi people as thugs, as hooligans, as ignorant, and he kept on doing this.

When we cornered him with the, well, with a barrage of questions on his crimes against the Iraqi people, I said, "Why did you do the mass graves?"

He said, "Well, all of these mass graves, they are -- they were stealers, thieves. They ran away from the battlefield."

I said, "What about Halabja? Why did you use the chemical weapons against your own people, and killed 5,000 people?"

He said, "Well, that was done by Iran."

I said, "Why did you kill the Shiite clergymen?"

He was ridiculing it, and he was very sarcastic.

BROWN: A couple of more questions. Did he know who you were when you walked in?

AL-RUBAIE: When we walked in, we introduced ourselves, and he didn't need that introduction. He knew us, because we're not sort of unknown people to him. We've been in the opposition for 35 years, some of us.

BROWN: And just finally, if you had to make your best guess as to when any trial would begin, when do you think that will happen? Will that happen by summer or is that optimistic?

AL-RUBAIE: Before the trial, I wanted to say that I did not detect any remorse towards the crime he committed against the Iraqi people. This is a man unrepentant, unapologetic, trying to justify all of his crimes.

As far as the tribunal and the trial is concerned, my best guess, I think it's several months to come.

BROWN: Well it, is a trial that many people will be watching. We thank you for your time today. It must have been an extraordinary experience the other day, one that you and lots of others will not forget.

Thank you, sir.

AL-RUBAIE: Thank you very much, indeed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We talked to Mr. Al-Rubaie this afternoon.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, another exile went home again. We'll see and hear what it was like to return to Iraq just as Saddam was captured.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Sometimes timing is exquisite. Just before the war in Iraq began, we introduced to the Al-Hussainis, a family of Iraqi exiles living in L.A.

They had long dreamed of returning home. But with Saddam Hussein in power, it seemed far too dangerous. Two of Basam Al-Hussaini's brothers were executed in the '80s. Mr. Al-Hussaini fled to the United States soon after.

Last week, he and his family finally went back to Baghdad, and four days after they arrived, Saddam Hussein was captured.

Yesterday, Mr. Al-Hussaini shared with us some of his pictures and experiences of the last few days.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASAM RIDHA AL-HUSSAINI, IRAQI EXILE: First thing, I asked the driver to pull over, as soon as we entered the Iraqi border from Jordan.

And I stepped outside and I actually bowed down, and I kissed the ground for my beloved birth country, thanking God that he brought me back to the land where I was born. Because at one point, I lost hope and I did not think I was going to come back home ever.

I brought my wife and two kids. Housna (ph), who is 5-years-old and Hasan (ph), 6 years old. I want my children to have a grandma for the first time. It was a lot of years.

When I knock on the door, my sister, who hadn't seen me in 22 years. When I got to my mom, we held each other for maybe two, three minutes, real tight, and we were really crying and crying. They did not believe this day was going to come.

When I first heard the news, the capture of Saddam, I had just finished my prayer in supplication. Incidentally, I asked with my prayer to the holy shrine to have Iraq in peace and free of Saddam.

And as soon as I stepped out, there were rumors on the street saying Saddam's been captured. Everybody was happy all of a sudden. And at first I did not believe that really happened, that really, I mean, everybody was saying, "That's really him. It's really Saddam."

Then a few minutes later, people start celebrating in a great deal of joy. People were actually opening up their stores and passing out candy bars, throwing candy bars in the sky.

My sister was with me. The first thing she told me, I should have came here sooner, because she thought I was the reason for Saddam to be captured. She said, "What took you so long? Maybe you should have came earlier."

By the time I got back home to my mother, you know, my mom was actually crying with joy that Saddam was gone and he has been captured.

My feeling was, this was the time to celebrate, because Saddam took two of my brothers. Bashir (ph) and Casam (ph) were killed back in 1982 and 1984.

The direct, immediate family members usually wear black as symbolic of mourning, and that's exactly what my mom was doing. I ask her, I said, "Well, it's time to take the black off. It's time to take those mourning off, because now it's a joy. You know, my brothers are in heaven looking at this, you know are very, very happy to see the capture of Saddam."

God had responded to those people, to the Iraqi people, who have been praying for a long time for this moment.

And I'm just thankful I happened to be here on this date to feel that joy, and to feel this moment of celebration.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: An exile story, two of them tonight.

Still ahead, morning papers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okey dokey, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. Yes, around the world.

We'll start with the "International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York times." This is the newspaper, if you've traveled abroad that you look for if you want to know what won the baseball game or whatever sport you follow, and then you also get the news. "Iraqi says U.N. failed his country." This is the Iraqi foreign minister, the new Iraqi foreign minister, Zebari, not happy with the U.N.

And "Clark" -- that would be General Clark -- "Tells U.N. court of ravages in the Balkans. Former NATO chief calls Roland trial of Milosevic satisfying."

That's the "Herald Tribune," the "International Herald Tribune." That's what you'll find on your doorstep tomorrow. Maybe it's there already. I get confused on the time zones.

"Philadelphia Inquirer" clearly has decided that the angel of death story in New Jersey is a good one for the paper. It's a good story.

"Nurse's history hidden, worry of suits. Hospitals didn't divulge Charles Cullen's probes and firings." He is now charged with murder, and he has apparently confessed to 30 or 40.

They also put the president's quote from tonight in an interview he gave to ABC News, "Hussein deserves to die." He didn't quite say it that way, but it's a headline and pretty darned close.

We mentioned this -- behave. "State public pension fund sues New York Stock Exchange. "San Francisco Chronicle" here.

But down in the corner, a story that will get some note, I suspect, tomorrow here and elsewhere, "Federal appeals court sides with two ill medical -- medicinal pot users." Or medical pot users.

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals said that the federal government can't stop them, that if a doctor prescribes, it's perfectly legit. We'll see what happens when it moves up the food chain in the courts.

The "Herald." That would be the "Herald" of Everett, Washington. "Everett wins." It sure did. The new Boeing 7E7 will be made there, if they can find someone to buy that darn airplane.

How, you ask, did they do it? Well, they build 747's in Everett. That's one thing. They also -- the state gave Boeing $3.2 billion in tax relief. That's a lot of jobs up there. So maybe it was worth it. Who knows?

Anyway, that's "The Everett Herald." We appreciate their sending in the paper. I think that's the first time, or one of the first times.

How are we doing on time? Forty-five, thank you.

A lot of newspapers are front-paging the morning-after pill. And I would, too. "Panel backs morning-after pill."

I know editors around the country wait to find out if I would, too. They really want to know that. But I think it's that sort of story. It's the kind of thing you talk about and think about. It's a good thing.

"Make him pay," is the way the "Boston Herald" does business tomorrow morning. "Saddam is due the ultimate penalty."

"The Times-Herald Record." Here's a story I like. This is it in upstate New York. Down at the bottom, I don't know if you can see that. "If it falls, can I eat it?" Isn't the five-second rule universal? If it's not on the floor or five seconds, you can eat it. It's a short story.

Robin Williams -- How are we doing on time? I'm in trouble, aren't I? OK. Robin Williams was in Baghdad, and the weather tomorrow in Chicago is the doldrums. That's the "Chicago Sun-Times" for the day.

A little wrap up of the day, look at the top story and a couple of other things after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we go tonight a recap of our top story, progress and peril in Iraq.

A number of pro-Saddam rallies, including one in Ramadi that turned into a gun battle with American soldiers. Also today, a raid swept up dozens of insurgents, as well as a top insurgent leader. It would appear to be a bomb-making cell.

Tomorrow on the program, celebrating what seemed to be nothing more than a flight of fancy. A hundred years after a Wright flier flew -- oh, man -- aviation buffs try get a recreation of it off the ground at Kitty Hawk. We'll see how that goes. A "recreation" of it. Come on, Aaron.

That story and Jeanne Sernon (ph), who landed on the moon, tomorrow on the program.

Anybody know what the five-second rule is? Sure you do.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next. We'll see you tomorrow. Until then good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com







Aired December 16, 2003 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, HOST: We have talked so many times of the crimes of Saddam Hussein. We have seen all the mass graves, the thousands of people buried there, another few thousand here. But somehow hearing of one crime against one person makes it all more real in an odd sort of way.
A guest you'll hear from tonight. You will hear from him as he calmly says how he was arrested and tortured not once, not twice, but three different times. He tells his story, where also telling with his meeting with Saddam over the weekend, the questions he asked, the answers Saddam gave. We can and should continue to debate the policy and the timing of the war and all the rest, but we ought not forget who this man Saddam Hussein was and what he did, and how, despite all that is troubling about Iraq today, and there is plenty, it is still a world better than it was.

But catching Saddam hasn't brought calm to Iraq. So we go first to the Pentagon and CNN's Barbara Starr.

Barbara, a headline from you tonight.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, as Saddam Hussein settles into captivity, Iraq does remain a complex environment for U.S. troops.

BROWN: Today proved that. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

Next to Iraq, and a day that saw a major raid that netted another big prize. Nic Robertson is there.

Nice, a headline.

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, that prize a high-value Fedayeen target and 73 associates in what could have been a Fedayeen-run bomb-making cell in Tikrit. Another of those bombs went off, injuring three soldiers.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

Politics next and the beating Howard Dean is taking on Iraq and foreign policy generally. Call this one a friendly-fire incident. CNN's Kelly Wallace on that for us tonight.

So Kelly, a headline from you.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Howard Dean stumping throughout the Southwest, finding himself the target of a new Democratic attack ad. This ad accusing himself of not being able to compete with President Bush on foreign policy. Dean says the attacks, though, will not hurt his campaign -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you.

Finally, to Virginia and the sniper trial. CNN's Jeanne Meserve had the watch in the courtroom today and is with us tonight.

Jeanne, a headline.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: In closing arguments, the prosecution says Lee Malvo was not insane at the time of the sniper shootings. The defense says he was. The jury must now weigh their arguments and weeks of testimony and evidence and reach their own conclusion.

Back to you.

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also ahead on the program tonight, an FDA panel gives the go- ahead to Plan B, the first over-the-counter morning after birth control pill. But the FDA still must act.

In "Segment 7" tonight, a very powerful homecoming. An Iraqi exile who just went home, just as the dictator who terrorized him and his family was captured.

And for dessert, of course, a giant helping of morning papers and a bit of rooster as well. All of that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin with Iraq. When the first frames of video came in of Saddam Hussein in custody, it was hard not to wonder what the next pictures out of Iraq would be, what the next few days would bring. Tonight things have started to take shape. There is progress against the insurgency to report, defiance on the part of Saddam, and a messy and mixed reaction from the people he once ruled.

We begin tonight with CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): At a pro-Saddam Hussein rally, a gun battle breaks out. In Fallujah, a train carrying supplies to U.S. forces is attacked. The Iraqi people still absorbing what it means for their former leader to be in captivity.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has asked the Central Intelligence Agency to oversee what could be years of questioning of Saddam Hussein. CIA director George Tenet will be in charge.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: He and his people will be the regulator over the interrogations. Who will do it, the questions that will get posed, the management of the information that flows from those interrogations.

STARR: If they find Saddam Hussein was directing the insurgency that has killed dozens of U.S. troops, Rumsfeld held open the possibility the U.S. may take a role in Saddam Hussein's prosecution. The Pentagon also defending these pictures, saying it was no violation of the Geneva Convention, which prohibits displaying prisoners.

RUMSFELD: If lives can be saved by physical proof that that man is off the street, out of commission, never to return, then we opt for saving lives. And in no way can that be considered even up on the edge of the Geneva Convention protections.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STARR: And Aaron, the secretary also said that Saddam Hussein is now, in his word, "resigned" to his fate as a captive. One final postscript today, you'll remember those pictures, of course, of the physicians taking a swab from Saddam Hussein's mouth, a bit of saliva for a DNA test. Well, the official DNA results came back today and officially it is Saddam Hussein that they're holding -- Aaron.

BROWN: Wouldn't that have been a kick in the pants, though? Do they really anticipate the questioning going on for years?

STARR: Well, they don't know. That's a very interesting point. I mean, you know, so far, when you look at some of the al Qaeda prisoners they've had, the track record has been, Secretary Rumsfeld says, that they question the people extensively for some extended period of time, months at least, and then suddenly they give up the goods. No one's really sure why.

And it was quite interesting today, Secretary Rumsfeld was asked what motivation, what might motivate Saddam Hussein to actually tell the truth? What might motivate him to talk if he understands that he would be facing a death penalty, perhaps in an Iraqi tribunal? The secretary saying he didn't know what would motivate Saddam. That would be a question he would look at.

The only potential answer he offered is if there was something perhaps that would benefit Saddam's immediate family if he was to talk. So very early days. No one's really predicting at this point how it all might go.

BROWN: Barbara, thank you. Barbara Starr at the Pentagon tonight.

More now on the question of how you go about interrogating a dictator, which as Barbara Starr just reported, will now be overseen by a team from the CIA. James Risen is reporting the story for "The New York Times" already filed for tomorrow. He joins us tonight from Washington.

Good to see you again.

JAMES RISEN, "NEW YORK TIMES": Hi. BROWN: Just on this question of what they learned or what they are learning from their interrogations of al Qaeda biggies and how that might help them here, do you have anything on that?

RISEN: Yes. I think one of the interesting questions is why the Pentagon turned Saddam over to the CIA. And I think the reason is because the CIA has been the ones handling almost entirely by themselves the interrogations of top al Qaeda leaders, like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Abu Zubaydah, and others like that.

They have not been held as widely as assumed. Those top leaders have not been held at Guantanamo. They've been held in secret locations around the world in groups of one or two, away from military interrogators, away from kind of a broad number of other agencies. And the CIA has learned how to do those very quietly and very efficiently, and I think -- so they've decided to handle Saddam the way they've handled the top al Qaeda leaders.

BROWN: So far, he chats with them, it sounds like. He doesn't give them what they want, which may or may not be the seem as he's not telling the truth.

RISEN: Well, I think there's a little bit of dispute in the first day between different administration officials about exactly the status of what he said so far. Some people have told us that he has, in fact, talked about some substance.

He did deny having any weapons of mass destruction. He's denied leading the insurgency. He's denied knowing the status of Scott Speicher, the Navy pilot.

At the same time that we've been told he said these things, other administration officials are denying that he's saying anything. And I think there is some dispute, some disappointment within the administration that maybe he's saying things that aren't really helpful to the Bush administration.

BROWN: That's going to be -- I don't want to turn this into a political discussion, but ultimately I suppose it's going to end up that way. He could be telling the truth. I'm not suggesting he is or he's not. But he could be telling the truth and not saying what they want him to say, and that's a problem.

RISEN: Exactly. And I think there's some -- what I've heard today is that in the first day or so, after he was captured, the product of his debriefings was fairly widely known within the Pentagon and the intelligence community, and then we began and other media outlets began to report on what he was saying.

Today, we were told that they were narrowing dramatically the distribution list about his debriefings. And it's going to be much more closely held in the coming days, I believe.

BROWN: Do you know, can you describe at all how he's being interrogated? I mean, what methods they're using, where he's being kept, how often he eats? Is he seeing anyone else? Do you know any of that?

RISEN: Not in detail, no, I don't. But I believe that what I was told today, or at least indicated to me, was that, while the CIA has learned a lot about how to deal with al Qaeda leaders, using behavior modification techniques that are in some ways short of torture, that they're going to be more careful in how they deal with Saddam.

They're not going to use the same coercive techniques, I don't believe, from what I've been led to believe, with him that they used with Khalid Sheikh Mohammed or Abu Zubaydah because they know that in the end he's going to have to face some kind of court. Whereas Abu Zubaydah and Khalid Sheikh Mohammed will probably never see the light of day again.

BROWN: Jim, it's good to see you again. We look forward to reading the piece in the paper tomorrow. Thank you.

RISEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Jim Risen of "The New York Times."

We alluded at the top of the program to the complicated state of play in Iraq since the capture of Saddam as if it were a picture of simplicity before. It certainly wasn't. But military commanders say they like the scene a whole lot better today.

They now have a new batch of solid intelligence to work with, they claim, momentum on their side. And tonight another victory.

For the latest on that and other developments of the day, we turn once again to CNN's Nic Robertson, who is still in Tikrit -- Nic.

ROBERTSON: Aaron, that raid you referred to came at 4:30 in the morning in Samarra, 25 miles south of here. Coalition troops were looking for a high-value target. They found him at his house.

He is believed to be a cell leader, a Fedayeen financier. In his house along with him were 73 young men. We are told they were all young men, all of military age. We were told there were no women and no children in that house.

Along with all these people, and the Fedayeen financier, were armaments, 135 pounds of gun powder, detonation caps, artillery shells, mortar rounds, and all of the equipment, we are told, for making these improvised explosive devices, the roadsides bombs that are proved so deadly against the U.S. and coalition troops throughout Iraq. This find is important, coalition officials say, because they believe they may have found a bomb-making cell. And that is important in Samarra because there have been many, many attacks against coalition troops there.

In Tikrit today, there was a similar attack, as well as outbreaks of protests on the streets.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) ROBERTSON (voice-over): Raising schoolbooks bearing Saddam Hussein's picture, children angrily denounce President Bush. The apparently organized protest in Adwar, where Hussein was captured. "He was our pride, he was our beloved leader," she screams.

A few miles away on the outskirts of Hussein's hometown, Tikrit, police search for his hard-core supporters. This police officer, who doesn't want to be identified, telling me, since Hussein's capture, security has worsened, although he thinks it will improve with time. "Most in this town," he says, "opposed to Hussein's capture, and those who aren't remain quiet."

In the center of Tikrit, plenty of people want to talk when we show up. "Saddam's capture is no good," says Nori (ph), the cigarette vendor. "What are the people celebrating for?" adds his friend Hussein (ph). "Celebrating their shame and occupation?"

As we talk, helicopters circle, and U.S. tanks roll by. A massive show of U.S. force following violent demonstrations the day before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's been some demonstrations. We're just trying to let the people know and reassure them that everything is fine and we're just out here to protect them and to help them establish the economy and get back on its feet.

ROBERTSON: Along with the U.S. troops, Iraqi soldiers from the Civil Defense Corps. "Saddam's relatives sold him," out says this soldier. "The demonstrations will do these people no good. Saddam Hussein's gone."

Away from the crowds, and close to the patrolling troops, passerby, Abu Muhammad (ph), is brave enough to speak his mind.

"In general, it's a good thing Saddam is gone," he says, "and my view is the same as everyone else's."

(on camera): Even with shows of force like this, the dangers for U.S. troops here remain very real. Just hours before this patrol went out, three U.S. soldiers were wounded by a roadside bomb, two of them seriously.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And commanders here say they are hoping -- they hope this raid in Samarra, just south of Tikrit, will be another piece in their information jigsaw, allowing them to reach out from these individuals to other people to begin to roll up more of these cells -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you. Nic Robertson in Tikrit.

Now to winning the hearts and minds in Paris and Berlin. Hearts and minds and euros. The issue on the table, of course, debt relief for Iraq. To that end, James Baker met today with the French president, Jacques Chirac. The former secretary of state winning a commitment in principle from Mr. Chirac.

He also apparently provided a welcome bit of diplomacy. Said one French observer, "He's a sign the adults are back in Washington, not the ayatollahs."

From there, Mr. Baker traveled on to Germany, which is owed about $5 billion by Iraq. After meeting with Germany's prime minister, the German government also promised to help, but again registered its disagreement over the decision to lock French and German companies out of any contracts for the rebuilding of Iraq.

Still to come on the program: the sniper trial. The jury gets the case in the trial of the accused teenage gunman.

And then an over-the-counter morning after contraceptive gets one step closer to your drug store shelf.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tomorrow, jurors in Virginia will begin in full their deliberations in the second of the sniper cases, the case of Lee Malvo. Was he sane? Was he under the spell of his older accomplice? That's the essential question: did he know right from wrong? That's what the jury must sort out after hearing closing arguments today.

Here's CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): "That is this defendant's handiwork," said prosecutor Robert Horan, as the jury viewed a horrific photo of Linda Franklin with half her head blown away.

LEE BOYD MALVO, DEFENDANT: We are the people who are causing the killing in your area.

MESERVE: Recordings of Lee Malvo's own voice, sometimes laughing, imitating a lawn mower used by Horan in his recitation of the random killings, all, he said, for $10 million. "Malvo did not suffer from a mental disease," argued Horan, "and knew right from wrong."

He played excerpts of Malvo's confessions to police, saying such detail could only have been provided by the trigger man. "There can't be any doubt, reasonable or otherwise, that he was the shooter," said Horan.

Where Horan characterized Malvo and John Muhammad as "peas in a pod," defense attorney Michael Arif maintained that Malvo himself was a victim. An abandoned child who attached himself to Muhammad and had his entire identity subsumed. "He became John Muhammad," said Arif. "He could no more have separated from John Muhammad than you separate from your shadow on a sunny day.: That, said Arif, left Malvo legally insane. "Right is what John Muhammad said it was, wrong is what John Muhammad said it was." Arif said Malvo confessed to the nighttime Franklin shooting and other murders only to protect Muhammad. "Who takes a shot like that? A man with experience, a man in the military, frankly not a punk kid."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE: Arif said, "Adding a life to this pile of death does not solve anything. It is just revenge." Horan urged the jury to use its common sense and convict. Deliberations begin in earnest tomorrow morning -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just remind me how long the jury in Muhammad was out.

MESERVE: Oh, you're taxing my memory there. It's already faded for me. I believe they came back with their verdicts for both phases of that trial in less than a day. But I'm not absolutely sure about that.

And this one, there's absolutely no way to predict. Every jury has its own personality. We don't know if they'll be deliberative and take a long time or the opposite and be very quick.

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you very much. Didn't mean to throw you there. I just didn't remember either.

On we go. If it were about any other drug or any other condition, it probably wouldn't get a mention on the program. But the politics of abortion can trump the best views of science and may again here.

An advisory panel to the FDA is recommending that the morning after pill be sold over the counter as easy to obtain as an aspirin, or condom for that matter. To them, the science was clear, but this is but a recommendation to the politically appointed members of the FDA.

Here's our medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The FDA panel agreed with the majority of people testifying that the morning after pill should go over the counter.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Making this product available over the counter will decrease the barriers and increase access.

GUPTA: If taken within 72 hours of unprotected sex, the pill, known as Plan B can prevent a fertilized egg from attaching to the wall of the uterus.

But Plan B is also reignating the abortion debate.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We need greater access to the morning after pill, or emergency contraception.

GUPTA: Those in favor of Plan B going over the counter say a woman has a right to have access to the drug, and it can reduce some of the three million unplanned pregnancies every year in the U.S.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Half of the inintended pregnancies result in abortion. And again, it's estimated that up to 50 percent of these inintended pregnancies could be prevented with the use of emergency contraception.

GUPTA: Those opposed to the drug argue that it's an abortion pill, and it isn't safe.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There have been no studies done on the long-term effects of women who take the morning after pill.

GUPTA: This pill is already available without a prescription in 33 countries and five states. Final approval for the U.S. is expected from the FDA in a few months, but the debate will likely continue much longer.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, still bringing out the heavy artillery. Democratic frontrunner Howard Dean takes a pounding from his competitors.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Now to politics and Iraq. The capture of Saddam Hussein has complicated things for all of the Democratic presidential candidates it seems. And that seems especially true for Howard Dean, who was in the crucial swing state of Arizona today, where the former governor of that state and interior secretary, Bruce Babbitt, endorsed him and where Iraq loomed large.

Here's CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The next president, Governor Dean.

WALLACE (voice-over): Arizona may seem a world away from the winter presidential primary season, but it's not.

HOWARD DEAN (D), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Boy, it is great to be in Arizona, especially in the winter.

WALLACE: A break from the cold, but no break from the attacks.

NARRATOR: Americans want a president who can face the dangers ahead, but Howard Dean has no military or foreign policy experience. And Howard Dean just cannot compete with George Bush on foreign policy.

WALLACE: This new ad running in key primary states is sponsored by a Democratic group. In an interview with CNN, Dean blasted the ad as an example of why Democrats have lost elections in the past.

DEAN: We've got these Washington Democrats who think that that's going to win elections. It's not going to win elections, and it doesn't help Democrats. And I think the people behind it ought to be not only be ashamed of themselves, I think they ought to remove themselves from the party.

WALLACE: The verbal assaults kept coming from the other candidates, too.

SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (D-CT), DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Howard Dean doesn't think we're safer with this guy in a prison. I'm afraid Howard Dean has climbed into his own spider hole of denial.

WALLACE: Dean stayed above the fray, an attempt, aides say, to cement his frontrunner status.

DEAN: But I think you can lead this country best by moving forward with a positive agenda and not complaining about somebody else's.

WALLACE: But some political observers say the capture of Saddam Hussein won't likely hurt Dean's chances in Arizona, which holds its primary in early February.

BRUCE MERRILL, ARIZONA STATE UNIVERSITY: The fact that he had the courage to stand up when it wasn't very popular and criticize the president will resonate fairly well in Arizona, where we kind of like people like that.

WALLACE: According to a new poll, Dean has opened up a sizable lead here, with the support of 22 percent of registered Democrats, well ahead of retired General Wesley Clark, with 12 percent, but a large number, 39 percent of registered Democrats, remain undecided.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE: And it is unclear if these Democratic attacks on Dean will have any impact on those undecided voters. Arizona is one of a handful of states holding a primary right after the kickoff contest in Iowa and in New Hampshire. And that means what happens here could play a role in determining the next Democratic nominee -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you. Kelly Wallace out West tonight.

Lots of interesting questions for the people who cover Dr. Dean and politics. Chris Suellentrop is the deputy Washington bureau chief for slate.com, the chief political reporter as well. And he joins us from Washington.

Nice to see you. What's interesting to me here is that everybody assumes that governor, that the capture of Saddam Hussein is such an enormous moment that it will affect all of these candidates and particularly Governor Dean.

Is it not possible that events will outweigh all of this anyway?

CHRIS SUELLENTROP, SLATE MAGAZINE: Absolutely that's possible. I mean, I'd say in disputably it gives a boost to efforts to beat Howard Dean. But unfortunately for the Democrats that candidate is George W. Bush.

BROWN: Yes. Beyond that I think there's some interesting things going on here. But I'm not sure how long lasting they are.

I think there's a conventional wisdom that Senator Lieberman should get a boost from all of this. He's been the hawk of this campaign and that party.

SUELLENTROP: Well, that's what people are saying. You know, Senator Lieberman is going to get a boost from this.

But I think Senator Lieberman's problem is he doesn't have a party to run in, really. I mean, he's been a strident critic of Howard Dean for a long time. This isn't the first time, he's said -- he had blunt attacks against Governor Dean.

He hasn't moved anywhere. He's done well everywhere except where there's a race. Every time the race moves to a state he drops in the polls.

BROWN: Chris, when you say he doesn't have a party, just put another sentence or two on that. What do you mean?

SUELLENTROP: What I mean is that, you know, I think he's a decent guy. I think he has genuine beliefs, but I mean, the positions he's taking in this election aren't the ones that Democratic primary voters are responding to.

BROWN: Democratic primary voters as opposed to Democratic voters or the electorate at large or what?

SUELLENTROP: Sure. I mean, there could be a mass of independent voter who like Joe Lieberman. I don't think that's -- I don't think that's necessarily true, but I certainly don't think he's appealing to the kind of people that are going to be voting in the primary elections.

BROWN: And you have an interesting analysis, I think, we can kick it around. I'm not sure I agreed with all of it, but an interesting analysis on how this affects General Clark.

SUELLENTROP: Yes, I mean, General Clark is the candidate who's been moving against Governor Dean. He's the guy that, you know, maybe has a chance to be the Comeback Kid in New Hampshire, maybe finish ahead of John Kerry, maybe. He's been moving up. But it's possible that this actually hurts Clark. I'm not saying that it will. But the most recent poll in New Hampshire shows that General Clark is the candidate who is, people believe is the guy that, for lack of a better phrase, clean up the mess in Iraq. And if Iraq isn't a mess anymore, maybe the rationale for his candidacy goes away.

BROWN: All right. Here's where -- I mean, I realize you're not exactly saying this is the absolute. This is an interesting idea or an interesting possibility.

I don't know that anyone two months from now or three months from now expects Iraq to be, you know, Bali or, you know, Honolulu. I mean, it's going to be a messy place.

SUELLENTROP: Well, it is going to be a messy place, and certainly catching Saddam Hussein doesn't make it not a messy place, and no one's disputing that.

BROWN: Is the Dean train, so far out of the station in many respects that we're just sitting here talking about something that's essentially done anyway?

SUELLENTROP: Maybe. It is almost always true that the candidate who leads the national polls and has the most money in December wins the nomination. Howard Dean has both of those things right now.

Having said that, it's worth noting that Bill Clinton didn't win Iowa. He didn't win New Hampshire in 1992, so Iowa and New Hampshire aren't the whole ball game.

BROWN: Just as quickly as you can, do you think he needs -- that there needs be a Dean mistake or some major news development that shakes the race to alter the outcome?

SUELLENTROP: I mean, he's proven he can overcome any obstacle put in his path. That includes his inability to not put -- to prevent himself from putting his foot in his mouth. But he needs to make a mistake. He needs to screw it up in order to lose, I think.

BROWN: Chris, good to have you with us. Thank you very much.

SUELLENTROP: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Our "MONEYLINE" roundup before we go to break. And it begins with the Boeing company and a new airliner announced today. They call it the 7E7 Dreamliner. It's designed to beat the Airbus, not in size or speed, but in fuel efficiency.

The company has to find someone to buy it. It expects to enter service in 2008, and it will be built in Everett, Washington, the big winners in that derby.

California's public employee pension fund is suing the New York Stock Exchange, claiming trading abuses went on for years. CalPERS manages about $100 billion in stock.

Two units of Halliburton have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection. These are not the divisions doing work in Iraq. They're the ones now settling claims for injuries due to asbestos.

Consumer prices fell in November, fell by 0.2 percent. This, coupled with better than expected numbers on housing construction, sent the markets higher again today. Just about every one of the indexes went up, or the indices, with the Dow Industrials leading the way.

Still to come on the program, "Facing Down Saddam." We talk with a member of the Iraqi Governing Council who faced Saddam in his cell.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's fair to say the desire to face our tormenters, to confront those who caused us misery is universal. So, too, is the desire to hear remorse.

Last weekend, four men who suffered greatly under Saddam Hussein got half their wish. Hours after Saddam's capture, they were allowed to visit him.

Mowafak Al-Rubaie, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, was one of those men.

He fled Iraq in '79, after being arrested and tortured by Saddam's secret police. We talked with him earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Mr. Rubaie, start -- just describe the Saddam you saw the other day. What did he look like?

MUWAFAK AL-RUBAIE, IRAQI GOVERNING COUNCIL: Well, a broken man. Irritable. Very demoralized. I think that he's psychologically ruined.

BROWN: Were you in the same room with him or were you talking to him from another room?

AL-RUBAIE: Well, it was in the same room and half a meter away from me. He was sitting on the edge of his bed, and I was sitting on a chair.

And I started bombarding him with questions, and asking him about the crimes he has committed against the Iraqi people.

BROWN: Talk to me for just a second about what was going through your mind when you walked in and saw him.

AL-RUBAIE: It went through my mind, it was working sort of in a very fast way. Because I went to the torture chamber in 1974 and in 1976, and in 1979. And the last time was absolute murder, because I was not released until I was terminally ill, with the acute renal shutdown. Both kidneys stopped working, and I was blown up.

And when I was released, it was -- I was basically terminally ill. But thank goodness, I survived that incident and went with a one-day ticket to London.

BROWN: Was there inside of you rage, anger? How would you describe the emotion that was going on in you?

AL-RUBAIE: Well, when I first went into that room, I was curious. I wanted to verify this is the true Saddam Hussein; this is Saddam Hussein. So that when I come out of the room and tell my people that, be rest assured that this is Saddam Hussein. That was the reason why I went in.

But when I came out of that room, I can tell you, I was outraged. I was very angry. I was really angry. Because the reason why, because he was so patronizing, so intimidating, so humiliating to the Iraqi people.

He was referring to the Iraqi people as thugs, as hooligans, as ignorant, and he kept on doing this.

When we cornered him with the, well, with a barrage of questions on his crimes against the Iraqi people, I said, "Why did you do the mass graves?"

He said, "Well, all of these mass graves, they are -- they were stealers, thieves. They ran away from the battlefield."

I said, "What about Halabja? Why did you use the chemical weapons against your own people, and killed 5,000 people?"

He said, "Well, that was done by Iran."

I said, "Why did you kill the Shiite clergymen?"

He was ridiculing it, and he was very sarcastic.

BROWN: A couple of more questions. Did he know who you were when you walked in?

AL-RUBAIE: When we walked in, we introduced ourselves, and he didn't need that introduction. He knew us, because we're not sort of unknown people to him. We've been in the opposition for 35 years, some of us.

BROWN: And just finally, if you had to make your best guess as to when any trial would begin, when do you think that will happen? Will that happen by summer or is that optimistic?

AL-RUBAIE: Before the trial, I wanted to say that I did not detect any remorse towards the crime he committed against the Iraqi people. This is a man unrepentant, unapologetic, trying to justify all of his crimes.

As far as the tribunal and the trial is concerned, my best guess, I think it's several months to come.

BROWN: Well it, is a trial that many people will be watching. We thank you for your time today. It must have been an extraordinary experience the other day, one that you and lots of others will not forget.

Thank you, sir.

AL-RUBAIE: Thank you very much, indeed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We talked to Mr. Al-Rubaie this afternoon.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, another exile went home again. We'll see and hear what it was like to return to Iraq just as Saddam was captured.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Sometimes timing is exquisite. Just before the war in Iraq began, we introduced to the Al-Hussainis, a family of Iraqi exiles living in L.A.

They had long dreamed of returning home. But with Saddam Hussein in power, it seemed far too dangerous. Two of Basam Al-Hussaini's brothers were executed in the '80s. Mr. Al-Hussaini fled to the United States soon after.

Last week, he and his family finally went back to Baghdad, and four days after they arrived, Saddam Hussein was captured.

Yesterday, Mr. Al-Hussaini shared with us some of his pictures and experiences of the last few days.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASAM RIDHA AL-HUSSAINI, IRAQI EXILE: First thing, I asked the driver to pull over, as soon as we entered the Iraqi border from Jordan.

And I stepped outside and I actually bowed down, and I kissed the ground for my beloved birth country, thanking God that he brought me back to the land where I was born. Because at one point, I lost hope and I did not think I was going to come back home ever.

I brought my wife and two kids. Housna (ph), who is 5-years-old and Hasan (ph), 6 years old. I want my children to have a grandma for the first time. It was a lot of years.

When I knock on the door, my sister, who hadn't seen me in 22 years. When I got to my mom, we held each other for maybe two, three minutes, real tight, and we were really crying and crying. They did not believe this day was going to come.

When I first heard the news, the capture of Saddam, I had just finished my prayer in supplication. Incidentally, I asked with my prayer to the holy shrine to have Iraq in peace and free of Saddam.

And as soon as I stepped out, there were rumors on the street saying Saddam's been captured. Everybody was happy all of a sudden. And at first I did not believe that really happened, that really, I mean, everybody was saying, "That's really him. It's really Saddam."

Then a few minutes later, people start celebrating in a great deal of joy. People were actually opening up their stores and passing out candy bars, throwing candy bars in the sky.

My sister was with me. The first thing she told me, I should have came here sooner, because she thought I was the reason for Saddam to be captured. She said, "What took you so long? Maybe you should have came earlier."

By the time I got back home to my mother, you know, my mom was actually crying with joy that Saddam was gone and he has been captured.

My feeling was, this was the time to celebrate, because Saddam took two of my brothers. Bashir (ph) and Casam (ph) were killed back in 1982 and 1984.

The direct, immediate family members usually wear black as symbolic of mourning, and that's exactly what my mom was doing. I ask her, I said, "Well, it's time to take the black off. It's time to take those mourning off, because now it's a joy. You know, my brothers are in heaven looking at this, you know are very, very happy to see the capture of Saddam."

God had responded to those people, to the Iraqi people, who have been praying for a long time for this moment.

And I'm just thankful I happened to be here on this date to feel that joy, and to feel this moment of celebration.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: An exile story, two of them tonight.

Still ahead, morning papers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okey dokey, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. Yes, around the world.

We'll start with the "International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York times." This is the newspaper, if you've traveled abroad that you look for if you want to know what won the baseball game or whatever sport you follow, and then you also get the news. "Iraqi says U.N. failed his country." This is the Iraqi foreign minister, the new Iraqi foreign minister, Zebari, not happy with the U.N.

And "Clark" -- that would be General Clark -- "Tells U.N. court of ravages in the Balkans. Former NATO chief calls Roland trial of Milosevic satisfying."

That's the "Herald Tribune," the "International Herald Tribune." That's what you'll find on your doorstep tomorrow. Maybe it's there already. I get confused on the time zones.

"Philadelphia Inquirer" clearly has decided that the angel of death story in New Jersey is a good one for the paper. It's a good story.

"Nurse's history hidden, worry of suits. Hospitals didn't divulge Charles Cullen's probes and firings." He is now charged with murder, and he has apparently confessed to 30 or 40.

They also put the president's quote from tonight in an interview he gave to ABC News, "Hussein deserves to die." He didn't quite say it that way, but it's a headline and pretty darned close.

We mentioned this -- behave. "State public pension fund sues New York Stock Exchange. "San Francisco Chronicle" here.

But down in the corner, a story that will get some note, I suspect, tomorrow here and elsewhere, "Federal appeals court sides with two ill medical -- medicinal pot users." Or medical pot users.

The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals said that the federal government can't stop them, that if a doctor prescribes, it's perfectly legit. We'll see what happens when it moves up the food chain in the courts.

The "Herald." That would be the "Herald" of Everett, Washington. "Everett wins." It sure did. The new Boeing 7E7 will be made there, if they can find someone to buy that darn airplane.

How, you ask, did they do it? Well, they build 747's in Everett. That's one thing. They also -- the state gave Boeing $3.2 billion in tax relief. That's a lot of jobs up there. So maybe it was worth it. Who knows?

Anyway, that's "The Everett Herald." We appreciate their sending in the paper. I think that's the first time, or one of the first times.

How are we doing on time? Forty-five, thank you.

A lot of newspapers are front-paging the morning-after pill. And I would, too. "Panel backs morning-after pill."

I know editors around the country wait to find out if I would, too. They really want to know that. But I think it's that sort of story. It's the kind of thing you talk about and think about. It's a good thing.

"Make him pay," is the way the "Boston Herald" does business tomorrow morning. "Saddam is due the ultimate penalty."

"The Times-Herald Record." Here's a story I like. This is it in upstate New York. Down at the bottom, I don't know if you can see that. "If it falls, can I eat it?" Isn't the five-second rule universal? If it's not on the floor or five seconds, you can eat it. It's a short story.

Robin Williams -- How are we doing on time? I'm in trouble, aren't I? OK. Robin Williams was in Baghdad, and the weather tomorrow in Chicago is the doldrums. That's the "Chicago Sun-Times" for the day.

A little wrap up of the day, look at the top story and a couple of other things after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we go tonight a recap of our top story, progress and peril in Iraq.

A number of pro-Saddam rallies, including one in Ramadi that turned into a gun battle with American soldiers. Also today, a raid swept up dozens of insurgents, as well as a top insurgent leader. It would appear to be a bomb-making cell.

Tomorrow on the program, celebrating what seemed to be nothing more than a flight of fancy. A hundred years after a Wright flier flew -- oh, man -- aviation buffs try get a recreation of it off the ground at Kitty Hawk. We'll see how that goes. A "recreation" of it. Come on, Aaron.

That story and Jeanne Sernon (ph), who landed on the moon, tomorrow on the program.

Anybody know what the five-second rule is? Sure you do.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next. We'll see you tomorrow. Until then good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com