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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

At least 35 U.S. Troops Injured West of baghdad. New Bush Immigration Plan Causes Controversy

Aired January 07, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone. It's funny how a day can change in an instant. There was nothing about the day today that was ominous.
The president had given an interesting speech on immigration policy, a good and important issue.

New polls came out in New Hampshire.

There was a good and interesting story on abortion out of Texas and an effort to stop the building of an abortion clinic. It's a story we've wanted to run for a while. Today looked like the day.

It was a normal day in many respects and then late, late in the afternoon the sound that signal a major news event has occurred hit our computers. In an instant the day changed. War was again thrown in our faces. Iraq had been quiet this week. We hadn't run a single story out of there. That changed in the worst possible way.

Iraq leads the program and the whip tonight. CNN's Karl Penhaul has the watch in Baghdad, so Karl a headline from you tonight.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, 35 American soldiers wounded as a barrage of mortars slam into their base west of Baghdad.

BROWN: We'll get the details coming up in a little bit.

Also tonight from the White House a proposal for shaking up immigration laws that will spark considerable debate we expect. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King with us tonight, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Considerable to say the least, Aaron. The president says it makes both economic sense and is compassionate to let millions of illegal immigrants get at least temporary legal status but Democrats say the president doesn't go far enough and one ominous warning tonight from a key conservative in Congress -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

On to the governor of Connecticut and the scandal and scandal is the right word he is facing. CNN's Deborah Feyerick is covering the story, Deb a headline from you tonight. DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a popular governor now facing the possibility of impeachment -- Aaron.

BROWN: Deb, thank you.

And finally New Hampshire and the man we'd hazard a guess never much liked being second on any occasion except possibly here. We're talking about candidate Wes Clark and some news he got today. CNN's Dan Lothian is in New Hampshire tonight -- Dan.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Aaron, according to the Clark campaign this has indeed been a very good day. He has moved up in the polls and it seems that every stop more and more people are turning out to hear his message. We'll take a look at what's behind the momentum -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dan, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also ahead on the program tonight was Saddam a paper tiger in fact when it came to weapons of mass destruction? We'll look at what's been found and, more importantly, what hasn't been found so far.

Later, the unscripted portion of the program, really? Bill Maher will be here to talk politics and other things too.

And we'll finish it up with a visit from the rooster as he drops off morning papers. That is clearly unscripted, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin in Iraq with the words of a Major General Charles Swanic (ph) who is in charge of the operations in the Sunni Triangle. "We're on the glide path toward success" he said talking about attacks on American soldiers, which had declined significantly in recent weeks but declining does not yet mean vanishing and today the general's image of a gentle glide path gave way for a moment to something less than that.

West of Baghdad tonight, members of the 541st Maintenance Battalion came under heavy fire so we go back to CNN's Karl Penhaul who has been piecing this together over the last couple of hours, Karl, good evening.

PENHAUL: Hi, Aaron.

The information came initially on a terse five line communique from military headquarters telling us that a barrage of six mortars had slammed into a logistics base west of Baghdad. It told us also that 35 American soldiers have been wounded.

One of those mortars scored a direct hit on living quarters, we're told. That's where the bulk of the casualties occurred. They did receive first aid treatment on the site but were then flown out and Medivaced out of that base for treatment in hospital treatment and further treatment. Now in a Pentagon communique that came a little later we were told that some of those soldiers have been returned to active duty, an indication there that their wounds were slight but it didn't give numbers. We're not still sure from Pentagon information or from military authorities here how many soldiers are still receiving hospital treatment in that attack.

Now this attack, Aaron, came on a day that only hours earlier the coalition administrator for Iraq, Ambassador Paul Bremer, had announced that he was going to release 500 Iraqi detainees, detainees that he described as a low security threat, detainees that he said would be released in a gesture of reconciliation for the Iraqi people and so when this attack came very much against the run of play, according to the other day's events -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's just go through a couple of quick questions and answer what you can. Do we have any sense yet how many, if any, of these injuries to these young American soldiers are life threatening?

PENHAUL: No. We don't have that information yet, Aaron. As I say, the details coming out of military headquarters here have been fairly scant. We do expect over the next couple or three hours perhaps to get more details of that as day breaks. Then they will have been sorted through their hospital treatment and that's the kind of information we'll be expecting then.

BROWN: Again, walk away from this one if you need to, do you have -- the military has put an enormous effort into force protection. Do you have any sense of what kind of security or barriers existed at that particular base?

PENHAUL: All these bases, Aaron, on the whole have very strong perimeter security often with large concrete barricades outside, sentry posts and also at key points manned by the tanks or Bradley fighting vehicles.

But this was a maintenance, a logistics base, west of Baghdad we're told, a fairly large affair and so for these mortar bombs could be lobbed over the top would not have too difficult, again depending on the caliber of the mortar but these things can fly from anything from four kilometers, about two and a half miles, up to much greater distances probably eight or nine miles. And so these attacks could have been carried out from some distance away and simply dropped into that camp.

BROWN: Karl, we'll let you continue trying to figure out the facts of all of this. We appreciate the facts you've come up with. Thank you, Karl Penhaul. He's had a busy night in Baghdad.

On now to a fundamental question here at home, who has the right to live and work in the United States, and by extension benefit from the protections provided by law.

The president today proposed a sweeping plan to revamp the country's immigration laws, reforms that would allow millions of illegal immigrants to obtain legal status as temporary workers. The president is loathed to call this an amnesty, a politically loaded term but if it isn't amnesty it is very close. Where jobs and immigrants intersect there's long been a flashpoint in the country, clearly is tonight.

Here again our Senior White House Correspondent John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The president calls his new immigration plan economic necessity and a compassionate way to bring millions of illegal immigrants out of hiding.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We must make our immigration laws more rational and more humane and I believe we can do so without jeopardizing the livelihoods of American citizens.

KING: Mr. Bush wants Congress to create new three year temporary visas to match perspective immigrants with unfilled jobs in the United States and make illegal immigrants eligible for the visas if they can prove they already have a job and pay a registration fee.

One instant criticism was that Mr. Bush is offering a reward to lawbreakers, the eight to ten million illegal immigrants now in the United States.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: People are here illegally. They need to be deported. People who hire them need to be fined. If they keep doing it they need to be sent to jail. It's against the law.

KING: The White House insists it is not amnesty because the three year visas would be temporary, renewable once or twice. The workers then would return to their country of origin unless they qualify for a green card, permanent residency status in the meantime.

It was Mr. Bush's first major policy initiative of the campaign year, aimed in part at increasing his share of the critical Hispanic vote. Democratic rivals were quick to criticize and up the ante.

Massachusetts Senator John Kerry said the president's plan fails by not providing a meaningful path to becoming legal permanent residents.

Missouri Congressman Dick Gephardt called it at best a half measure with potential to do more harm than good.

Most Democrats favor granting permanent residency to illegal immigrants who pass a criminal background check and prove they have had jobs for at least two years.

Many of the president's business allies also favor permanent status for illegal immigrants.

RANDEL JOHNSON, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: The reality of it is we're not going to deport all these people so we have to come up with something to deal with the situation or we can continue to put our head in the sand.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Now the dicey political challenge facing the president in this election year underscored tonight when a key conservative voice in Congress, the House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said he was glad the president was addressing the issue but Tom DeLay also said, Aaron, he has serious reservations about a plan from the president that Mr. DeLay says "seems to reward illegal behavior."

BROWN: There's some -- this is classically the devil is in the details and I've got a million questions. Let me just start with this one. I won't make you answer a million of them.

You've got the Chamber of Commerce supporting this, by and large unions are supportive of this, so where is the organized opposition? Where is the juice coming from if there's going to be an organized opposition?

KING: Well, Tom DeLay he does not say in his statement that he will flatly oppose this but if he does that would be enough juice to block it. He can keep enough conservatives in Congress and flatly just keep it off the calendar, so he can keep this from happening.

The big question is, is the president in a reelection year willing to put pressure on his conservative base that he needs so much to go along? Will he muscle them into doing this in an election year, a big question?

BROWN: So it really comes down to whether the Congress will move this that there's not an outside force, a sizeable outside force that will oppose it?

KING: Well, the Democrats say it doesn't go far enough.

BROWN: Yes.

KING: And that's what many conservatives are worried about. The president says he doesn't want amnesty. He doesn't want permanent legal status for those illegal immigrants in the United States but one of the key questions is what if enough Democrats in Congress and border state Republicans like John McCain of Arizona, the House members from Arizona, what if they passed amnesty, blanket amnesty would the president sign it even though he opposes it today?

BROWN: John, thank you, Senior White House Correspondent John King. That is the big picture if you will in broad strokes.

Now face it every policy story is made up of millions in many cases of human stories, the vast majority untold. Immigration reform may be a convenient label for the big story the shorthand used in these policy discussions we have but the reforms might mean for individuals, however, defies shorthand.

Here's CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She asked us to call her Tina Gonzalez, trusted us not to show her face. She is in the U.S. illegally. She has been for 15 years.

It began the night she crossed by foot at San Ysidro like thousands before her and thousands since. She ran across the freeway with her husband and four young children. She made it to the fields and became a farm worker. These hands picked countless cherries and pears and peaches and did the work, she says, that Americans didn't want to do.

TINA GONZALEZ, UNDOCUMENTED WORKER (through translator): Well, we the workers we clean the houses of the rich. We take care of the children of the rich. We sew the pants for people in the fields. We bring to the table fruits and vegetables.

BUCKLEY: She lives in a neighborhood of Los Angeles that few would consider desirable but Mrs. Gonzalez, who is 50 now, still appreciates this country. An American flag hangs in her living room.

She's worked in the fields of America, in its restaurants, in its garment industry. It is a simple life with her husband and children and grandchildren. She came for a simple reason.

GONZALEZ (through translator): I wanted a better future for my children and my grandchildren.

BUCKLEY: She says the proposal by President Bush in her view falls short of expectations, a promise of three years is an offer that is unlikely to lure her to apply for a work permit after 15 years in the underground economy. What she would like is legitimacy in a country that demands her labor.

GONZALEZ (voice-over): We want respect for civil rights because we're human beings. We're just like everyone else.

BUCKLEY: Working in the shadows.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And we'll have more on this a little bit later in the program.

Also coming up a governor fights for his job, John Rowland of Connecticut says he is sorry for mistakes made but will not resign even as his troubles mount and the impeachment word is heard.

Later, Bill Maher stops by no doubt with things to say about politics, immigration, hopefully many other things as well, lots to do tonight.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In Connecticut, the mess at the governor's mansion is getting messier. Governor John Rowland used to be a rising Republican star, used to be. Now he's under federal investigation and growing pressure to resign. State legislators meet tomorrow to decide whether to begin impeachment proceedings against the governor, all of which explains Mr. Rowland's very public mea culpa tonight.

Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK (voice-over): His approval rating sinking from the weight of scandal, Connecticut Governor John Rowland reached out directly to voters.

GOV. JOHN ROWLAND, CONNECTICUT: I lied and there are no excuses. My mistakes are my own and I offer my sincerest apologies to the people of Connecticut.

FEYERICK: Rowland's fighting for his political life. The once popular three term Republican governor now the focus of a federal investigation law enforcement sources say into alleged bribery and bid rigging. These charges have Connecticut lawmakers talking impeachment.

JAMES AMMAN, HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: All aspects of what is possible have been discussed, impeachment, resignation, special inquiries through a hearing process. Some believe that it's best to just let the governor hang out there politically.

FEYERICK: At issue luxury improvements on the governor's lake home. Rowland said he paid for them, then admitted he did not, not the hot tub, not the heating system, not the cathedral ceilings.

Rowland conceded the people paying were employees and people seeking to do business with the state, one of them a big contractor with hundreds of millions in state deals. The governor denied influencing any contracts.

ROWLAND: I want you to know that I have never, not once, provided any favors or taken any actions in exchange for the gifts that I have received.

FEYERICK: Connecticut ethics laws make it illegal for the governor to accept any gifts more than $10 from people trying to do business with the state. Last year, one of the governor's top aides pleaded guilty to taking gold and cash from companies and, in turn, steering state contracts their way. The State Ethics Commission says it's now looking into a D.C. condo Rowland allegedly sold above market price.

It's the growing specter of corruption surrounding Rowland that's going to make it difficult for the governor to put the matter behind him quickly. This week federal agents subpoenaed the governor's personal financial records and state lawmakers are meeting to decide whether to begin impeachment proceedings.

JOHN ORMAN, POLITICAL ANALYST: The water has really started gushing out of the dam on this one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: Both the House and Senate are controlled by Democrats. It's not clear whether Republicans will stand by their governor, especially with the assembly up for reelection next year. The governor says he has no plans to resign -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's go back to the Republicans because to me they're the most interesting players in this. Have they been in lock step in support of the governor? Where have they fallen to this point?

FEYERICK: They've been meeting with the governor. The governor's strategy is to get as many people into sort of closed door sessions as possible to plead his case. They've not taken a strong position one way or another. If they give the Democrats the wink to go ahead with impeachment proceedings then there's going to be no stopping it.

BROWN: Deb, thanks a lot, Deborah Feyerick tonight.

In presidential politics imagine this, a roomful of gleeful campaign workers high-fiving one another and chanting we're number two, we're Avis. We're no cigar but, hey, we're close. Now is this a reason to cheer, in January in New Hampshire maybe.

Eleven years ago Bill Clinton finished second in the New Hampshire primary. Tonight retired General Wesley Clark finds himself, according to the latest tracking poll, second in New Hampshire and for the first time leading John Kerry who happens to be from the state next door.

He is looking the general is, for what the father of another guy who also came in second in New Hampshire once called the Big Moe. His campaign for the moment seems to have found a bit of it.

Here's CNN's Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN (voice-over): New Hampshire resident Frank Dobisky is part of Wesley Clark's new army of supporters a recent convert who had been a diehard Dean backer until he met Clark at a campaign stop late last year.

You were equally committed to Dean, right?

FRANK DOBISKY, CLARK SUPPORTER: Yes. Yes.

LOTHIAN: You thought Dean was the person?

DOBISKY: Yes.

LOTHIAN: What made you change?

DOBISKY: I like the way the general spoke about how he would deal with Iraq. I thought he was very specific but he wasn't hard edged.

LOTHIAN: Clark, meeting with voters at a packed event in Peterboro, New Hampshire, is enjoying a sudden surge in national polls. Once trailing Howard Dean by 21 points, the race between the two candidates is now a virtual tie. What changed?

ANDREW SMITH: First he's shown the ability to raise money and the ability to raise money I think is key that it makes him a viable candidate. Secondly, that viability is being pulled together with a sense that he is a plausible alternative to Howard Dean.

LOTHIAN: Clark says he's not watching polls but admits voters are tuning into his message.

WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm getting a lot of resonance out there for what I'm saying. I believe we need a higher standard of leadership in America and so do the people in New Hampshire.

LOTHIAN: For his part, Dean flipping pancakes at a campaign stop in Iowa seemed unconcerned.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Governor are you worried about the latest polls showing Clark (unintelligible)?

HOWARD DEAN, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No.

LOTHIAN: But Dean's campaign appeared to be speaking volumes, volunteers handing out this anti-Clark flyer outside the retired general's New Hampshire event questioning whether he's a real Democrat, criticizing his shifting position on the war in Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN: One Clark aide said that the retired general has actually been fired at with real bullets and he can more than handle verbal attacks. The big question now is whether this is a surge followed by a dip or the beginning of a very competitive race -- Aaron.

BROWN: Yes, it is. There's another question here and that is how can Senator Kerry survive a third place showing in New Hampshire? This is his backyard.

LOTHIAN: It is his backyard and it will be very difficult for him if he does not do well here in New Hampshire and, of course, as we have seen over the past few weeks so much has changed so we never know. I mean he could still once the voters finally speak in the New Hampshire primary he could still pull in that second place but he does have an uphill battle if he does not pull into second here in New Hampshire.

BROWN: The next couple of weeks will be fascinating, Dan, thank you, Dan Lothian who is in New Hampshire tonight.

A few other stories making news around the country starting with a U.S. citizen suspected of plotting with al Qaeda to explode a dirty bomb.

The Justice Department said today it will ask the U.S. Supreme Court to throw out a lower court ruling that requires the release of Jose Padilla from military custody. He was arrested 20 months ago, designated an enemy combatant. He has not been charged. He has not been allowed to see a lawyer or anyone else.

Fort Campbell, Kentucky a big welcome home today for about 200 soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division's advance team, they are part of the first wave of combat troops returning home after completing a one year tour in Iraq. It will be April before all 20,000 members of the 101st come home.

On to the Mars rover, NASA said today its much anticipated trek across the Martian surface will be delayed by at least three days. The airbags that cushioned its landing are now obstructing its path. We talked about this last night on the program. The earliest the rover could get rolling would be a week from today.

A spokesman for the Reverend Billy Graham says the 85-year-old preacher is expected to recover fully after undergoing hip surgery yesterday at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida. Reverend Graham was visiting the clinic for a semi-annual checkup when he fell in his hotel room on Monday night.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT where are the weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet in Iraq so the question is was Saddam a paper tiger? Interesting perspective from a "Washington Post" reporter who has extensively, and we do mean extensively, reported on the story.

We'll take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When Secretary of State Powell sat down today for an interview with ABC's Ted Koppel a lion's share of that interview centered on a report in today's "Washington Post" on Iraq and on weapons of mass destruction and the case for war, in short the gap between what was said in the selling of the war by the president and the secretary and what's been discovered so far in Iraq.

At each turn, the secretary when asked about specifics replied instead in generalities about Saddam Hussein's bad intentions, his prior bad acts and capability to make weapons of mass destruction if not a different tune than before at least a change in tone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): The assertions were as clear as they were ominous.

BUSH: The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program.

BROWN: The intelligence, the world was told, was precise.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent.

BROWN: And more and more it seems it was wrong.

DAVID ALBRIGHT, PRESIDENT, INSTITUTE FOR SCIENCE AND INTERNATIONAL SECURITY: They're not finding anything in Iraq of any significance. I mean they've shifted from focusing on finding big stocks of chemical and biological weapons to trying to find programs and they're even having trouble with that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you found any weapons of mass destruction?

BROWN: The Chief Weapons Inspector David Kay is reportedly ready to quit, though he hasn't yet and the president who made those illusive weapons of mass destruction his primary though not his only reason to take the country to war now argues that weapons or not it doesn't really matter.

BUSH: This is a person who has used chemical weapons before, which indicated to me he was a threat. He invaded his neighbors before. This is a person who was defiant. He's a deceiver and he was a murderer in his own country. He was a threat.

TOM SQUITIERI, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT "USA TODAY": When questioned about what he said before the war and what he said now, what he's saying now, he sort of shrugs it off and says what's the difference? Well, I think most people who are objective will say there's a big difference if you have something in your hand ready to use it or if you're trying to acquire it.

BROWN: While the administration can easily shrug off the protesters and polls suggest there is not now a political problem for the president, the failure to deliver the goods may come back to haunt, if not this president then the country down the road.

SQUITIERI: It will be very difficult I presume at this point to have anybody sign on to helping the United States in another war that is going to be predicated on U.S. intelligence saying there's a threat to the United States or its allies.

ALBRIGHT: If they don't fix it and the intelligence remains questionable just because of what happened in Iraq then how can people in Congress and other parts of the government make decisions effectively about what to do in crises involving countries like Iran or North Korea?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Art Gellman wrote the piece in the "Post" today the "Washington Post" that got all this attention. It is quite a piece of work by the looks of it and by the reaction it is getting. Mr. Gellman is in Washington tonight. He joins us from there and we're glad to have him.

It's 6,000 words I think. That's a lot of work and we're not going to cover it all. Let's look at some broad strokes. Do the inspectors, the American team, believe anymore that they will find a cache of weapons of mass destruction, biological or chemical?

BARTON GELLMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "WASHINGTON POST": I'd have to say those expectations are months in the past neither a cache of active weapons, the lethal agents that make them up nor even active production lines for any of those weapons now look likely to be found in the inspector's own view.

BROWN: But what they have found is what? I mean I think a lot of, as I read the piece today, a lot of the pieces is on the one hand what the Americans thought they had or said they had and what the Iraqis really wanted to have if they could.

GELLMAN: There's definitely some deception been found by Iraq about aspirations or intentions or past desires or records they may have kept.

Saddam Hussein seems to have wanted to rebuild these programs. The question is whether he took active steps to do so and whether he was even capable of building the kinds of programs that worried the United States and the British government the most.

BROWN: On the first part, whether he took active steps, the answer is, sort of?

GELLMAN: Yes.

Look, I interviewed a missile scientists who had secret drawings, computer drawings and computations for a family of missiles that could eventually have struck at Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey. But they were drawings. They existed on compact disks. There were no actual missiles.

And experts that I spent many hours with evaluating his plans said that, if he could have built it at all, it would have taken six years. So the question is not whether they wanted them or took preliminary steps, or at least not only those things. It's also whether these missiles were something that would become part of Iraq's arsenal anytime soon.

BROWN: There's a key moment in this story which really plays out over a decade, where the -- one of Saddam's son-in-laws defects and he is debriefed extensively. The importance of that moment is?

GELLMAN: Look, everyone knew who has followed this for a long time that Hussein Kamel, Saddam's son-in-law, gave away a big chunk of secrets when he left Iraq. The question is whether he gave away all of them, and especially on one point. Did Iraq destroy all the biological weapons agents that it produced before 1991? Iraq said yes. The United States and others doubted it for a long time. Now, what I came across was a new document. It's a handwritten damage report inside the Iraqi government that went to Qusay Hussein, Saddam's son, saying, the son-in-law has defected. Here are all the secrets he knows that we haven't told anyone. And one of the secrets is that we destroyed all the biological weapons not when we said we did in 1990, but, in fact, the following summer in 1991.

But what it says, unambiguously, is, we destroyed all the biological weapons. And it was those same weapons that Colin Powell was referring to on February 5 when he said that Iraq still had, for instance, some thousands of liters left of anthrax.

BROWN: Does the reporting give us any clue as to why the American and presumably British intelligence was wrong?

GELLMAN: It's a really big, complicated question, and it offers only hints.

There's one intriguing element here that I came across and didn't expect to come across. And that is the extent to which Iraqi scientists and engineers and program managers seem to have been lying to their bosses and ultimately to Saddam Hussein. There was a lot of inflation of progress reports, a lot of creation of false progress reports. Generals and scientists and company managers told me that you just don't tell Saddam Hussein, no, what you want can't be done.

And so people would tell him, yes, we're doing it, yes, sir, it's happening. And so it appears that he received a lot of information that would exaggerate, in his own mind, the extent to which he had active programs. And it may be that some of that same information made its way out into Western intelligence reports.

BROWN: We appreciate your time tonight. It's a terrific piece of work. I assume it's still online, for people who don't have access to the paper, to the paper copy of the paper. They can go take a look at all of it. It's a nice piece of work. And, again, thank you.

GELLMAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Bart Gellman of "The Washington Post" tonight.

Still to come, we'll circle back to the president's immigration plan, a creative way, some will say, to deal with a real problem, or was just it a political-year gambit that rewards law-breakers? Both sides have a feel for this. And we'll hear from both sides.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More now on the president's proposal for changing the rules affecting perhaps millions of immigrants, most of them illegally in the country. This is one of the stories with a lot of moving parts and lots of implications. It's drawing praise, it's drawing praise fire, as you might imagine, in many quarters tonight.

Joining us to talk about it, from Washington, Katherine Culliton of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund; and Dan Stein of FAIR, the Federation of American Immigration Reform.

And we are pleased to have you both with us.

Mr. Stein, let me start with you.

You're not happy.

DAN STEIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Well, we're looking for immigration reform, but what we got was something entirely different.

When we look at the president's proposal, what we see are low wages and desperate workers, a program that rewards cheaters, people who jump the line, basically ripping off the taxpayers, stealing residency, and working illegally. And the communities that are trying to deal with the massive inflow of immigrants, because, after all, employers are driving this process, are middle-class taxpayers, who have to pay for hospitals, roads, schools, bringing in workers whose income-earning ability simply doesn't put them above their cost to the community to support them.

And while employers like this low-wage process, it's killing, it's screwing the little guy.

BROWN: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry. You've laid out the sort of central argument. Let me have Ms. Culliton respond a bit.

As I read some of your remarks today, you're pleased, if not exactly ecstatic.

KATHERINE CULLITON, MEXICAN AMERICAN LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND: Right. Exactly.

These workers are doing jobs that U.S. workers don't want. And that's why we're part of a very broad coalition supporting immigration reform. That's why all the major labor unions support immigrants rights and legalization, along with the U.S. Chamber, religious groups across the board, and nonpartisan Latino groups.

What President Bush did to clarify today that he's still in favor of immigration reform because it's good for America. Our native work force is aging. We're going to need more immigrant labor in the future. We need to make the process safe and legal. Also, our secretary of homeland security, Tom Ridge, has looked into matter, found that immigrants don't pose a security risk, per se. And he's in favor of legalization of legal immigrants for national security reasons. We think we should pay attention to what they're saying.

BROWN: Mr. Stein, one of the things struck me about this, or several, is that unions, by and large, are supportive of it. And you would think that, if the -- one of the concerns was that it would be taking American jobs, that unions wouldn't jump on this. How do you explain that?

STEIN: Oh, that's pretty easy.

Unionized labor is virtually nonexistent anymore in this country. It was undermined by a variety of things, including, remember, NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. We swallowed that and sent a lot of jobs out of the country, because that was going to stem the tide of illegal immigration from Mexico. Well, that didn't do the trick.

Now we're sitting here looking at a situation where you have these labor union officials who think they're doing the right thing by getting amnesty to these illegal workers. But the workers themselves, because they're not unionized, really aren't -- they're not part of the union process. So unions are basically desperate to try to be relevant again, to try to unionize a labor force that was blown out by the illegal labor flow.

Thirty years ago, a unionized American meat packer was making $35 an hour in real wages. And today, they're making $8 an hour and getting an annual wage increase of 25 cents an hour a year. But the most important thing about the proposal is its appalling lack of recognition of the last 25 years.

The president's proposal looks exactly like an agricultural worker amnesty that Congress passed in 1986. And the fraud rates in that program were 70 percent. So, when you talk about national security, you're talking about giving documents to people whose identity we haven't verified.

BROWN: Ms. Culliton, one of the things that I found really interesting about all of this is the power that this gives to an employer over an employee. You got any concerns there?

CULLITON: Well, we are concerned with guest worker proposals because of the historic abuses that have happened.

But the president also said today that he's in favor of equal labor protections. We can help him implement that. We're civil rights lawyers. We have had experience with immigration reform. And the things that have gone wrong in the past, we can put in protections for immigrant workers and for U.S. workers. Any package we would support would, of course, have equal labor protections and a path to permanent status.

All that we're saying is that this generation of immigrants, many of whom are Latino, deserve the same chance as all the generations of immigrants before them that made America great. They're contributing billions to the U.S. economy. And they even create jobs for U.S. citizens. Rather than taking out, they're contributing and keeping us strong. And this is a phenomenon that is going to continue in the future. Our native work force is going to get older and older.

BROWN: I know.

CULLITON: And we're going to need new migrant labor.

BROWN: Just as quickly as you can, does it trouble you at all that these are people who did break the law to come into the country?

CULLITON: Yes, it does, but what we're talking about is not an amnesty.

In 1986, all you had to prove was that you're here. And it was also only a one-time solution. The current proposals, President Bush's proposal, and what we would support are an earned legalization, where you have to prove that you have a job, you're not displacing a U.S. worker, you pay taxes and you pass a security check. This is completely in the national interests of the United States. That's what we need to look at.

If everyone were deported under these circumstances, our economy would collapse.

STEIN: Not true.

CULLITON: We need to look at a real solution to the real problems of the U.S. economy.

STEIN: That's not true.

BROWN: Mr. Stein and Ms. Culliton, thank you both. We're just beginning a debate that is obviously going to go on for some time. Hopefully, we'll see you both again soon. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

CULLITON: Thank you.

STEIN: Thank you.

BROWN: A couple of other items here in our "MONEYLINE Roundup" before we go to break, starting with Enron's former chief financial officer, Andrew Fastow, he and his wife both reportedly negotiating a plea deal with federal prosecutors. No specifics yet. This is significant, of course, because it could be a sign that Mr. Fastow is ready to testify against his former bosses, including Ken Lay.

The doctor accused of coercing a dying George Harrison into autographing his son's guitar is now offering to donate the instrument to charity. This story is unbelievable. The late Beatles estate is suing Dr. Gil Lederman for $10 million, accusing him of, among other things, of bizarre and inappropriate behavior. The doctor, who was treating Mr. Harrison for brain cancer, allegedly held the dying man's hand and helped him sign his name on the guitar. It is alleged.

Markets today were mixed, the Dow industrials giving ground, as they say downtown, for the second straight day, probably profit- taking, like I know what that actually means.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll get some different perspectives on the day's events. Bill Maher joins us. And we'll be glad to see him.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we really don't need to have a reason to have Bill Maher on the program, except it's occasionally nice to laugh and think at the same time. Walking and chewing gum, as you might imagine, just doesn't work behind the desk here.

Besides, laughing and thinking are highly underrated, we believe. So we're happy to see Mr. Maher, who is the host of "Real Time With Bill Maher" on HBO. HBO and CNN are owned by the same company, AOL...

BILL MAHER, COMEDIAN: They are?

BROWN: Well, it's not AOL Time Warner.

MAHER: No.

BROWN: It was, but it's not. It's just Time Warner.

MAHER: We got a quickie divorce, like Britney Spears.

BROWN: That's right. Perhaps not quick enough, though.

Nice to see you.

MAHER: Nice to see you, finally in person.

BROWN: Yes. You go back to work soon, right?

MAHER: Yes, January 16, we start our new season. We're moving up to 8:00 at night.

BROWN: On Saturday?

MAHER: On Friday nights.

BROWN: Friday night.

MAHER: So, we were on at 11:00 last year. So I think we got a raise, or a promotion or something.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Does it change the program to do it at 8:00? I guess because it's HBO, it probably doesn't.

MAHER: It might, only because I get up so late in the day, that, to be at work at -- that's 5:00 on the West Coast. Let me tell you, that's a burden for me, but I'll get back into it.

BROWN: Let's talk about the news a bit and you.

Do people have an expectation of you and your politics that's sometimes hard to meet? And here's why I ask. Because I have always sensed in you some ambivalence where Iraq and the war was concerned.

MAHER: Absolutely. That's one reason I'm glad I'm not a politician and why I always say I never would be. It's because you can be ambivalent. When you're a politician, you can't be.

And look at Howard Dean. You can't even be angry. I think being angry is a wonderful thing, especially in this country, when there's so much to be angry about. But, apparently, when Howard Dean gets angry, they say, come on, you're getting away from the party's core principles of spineless lethargy. Let's have a little compassionate complacency among the Democrats.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Well, but the concern is that perhaps he doesn't have the temperament for the job good.

MAHER: What does that mean? You can't win.

You know what? If you don't have some passion, then you're a soulless automaton like Al Gore. He didn't have enough passion.

BROWN: Right.

MAHER: But if you have some anger, like Dean does, which is what I like -- it's what I looked about McCain in the year 2000. They said the same thing about him, too angry to be president. He's cranky. Well, you know what? Maybe 5 1/2 years in a box in Vietnam makes you a little cranky. I'm glad he was cranky. He's a guy who is forcing some issues we need to see forced in this country. I think angry people do that.

BROWN: Are you interested in the way the campaign is being covered? Do you think it's -- has it been -- is it just tedious to you?

MAHER: It's infuriating, because it's always about the horse race.

I watched the debate the other day and a lot of the questions were, you're in single digits in the polls. Why is that? Why don't you get out of the race? How come more people aren't voting for you? Well, maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe it's because you guys in the media constantly focus on that. So it's never about the ideas that somebody is presenting.

BROWN: But is it not fair to say that, if you say -- if you ask some really interesting and thoughtful question on Social Security, what you get is a very standard, rehearsed response?

MAHER: That's true, too.

BROWN: Yes.

MAHER: So I don't know where you win there.

BROWN: Right. I guess you just run 30-second ads.

MAHER: But then, if you get the passionate response, you're too angry.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: And we can't have the angry people here. Only cows can be mad in this country.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: That doesn't bother -- I read today that sales at Wendy's...

BROWN: Yes?

MAHER: ... went up 9 percent last month, when mad cow was in the news.

BROWN: It actually went up?

MAHER: It went up. I assume because meat was in the news and people went, oh, meat.

BROWN: You know, I haven't had a burger in a while.

MAHER: Honey, fuel up the SUV. Let's go and get some meat.

BROWN: How's the governor of your state doing?

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: Well, you know, he wasn't my choice, but...

BROWN: How is he doing, do you think?

MAHER: Well, his plan to solve the big problem that we were all worried about is to borrow more money. I don't see how that's actually solving the problem.

And also, he reminds me of what I keep referring to as a banner year of Republican hypocrisy. I can't believe the Democrats cannot take advantage of this. When you put together Bill Bennett, Rush Limbaugh, Arnold Schwarzenegger, George Bush and the flight suit, Strom Thurmond, they can't put this all together and say, this is a very hypocritical bunch of people?

BROWN: Well, perhaps there are hypocrites on all sides of this.

MAHER: Yes, but come on. When you talk about all the things that went on, in the area of sex with Arnold Schwarzenegger, with race with Strom Thurmond, with drugs, Bill Bennett with virtue, there's nary an issue where they didn't step in it last year.

And, for some reason, the unangry lame-os in the Democratic Party can't make political hay out of that. They deserve to lose.

BROWN: Do you enjoy your time off, real quick?

MAHER: I love it.

(CROSSTALK)

MAHER: I told you last time, I was working on my herb garden.

BROWN: I know. You ready to go back to work?

MAHER: On the herb garden?

BROWN: No.

MAHER: You bet. I have got some cayenne pepper.

(CROSSTALK)

MAHER: Oh.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: Yes, I am. I'm ready to go back.

BROWN: It's good to finally see you in person.

MAHER: Hey, I wish you'd come out and do our thing some time.

BROWN: I would love to.

MAHER: Really?

BROWN: All you got to do is ask.

MAHER: Really?

BROWN: Yes.

MAHER: Because I thought you CNN guys couldn't do that.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Well, I don't know. You asked me if I would do it. You didn't ask my bosses if I could do it.

MAHER: Yes. That could happen.

BROWN: But I'm sure they'd like that. I think they would.

MAHER: It's a done deal, then.

BROWN: Good. I'll be on the flight soon. (LAUGHTER)

MAHER: It's a lot warmer.

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. And we have a passel full of them today, though I don't really know how big a passel is.

"The Washington Times." We haven't had for a while. And I think it printed funny. Or they've changed the layout, but I like the story anyway. "Back to the Future. Redskins Recall Joe Gibbs to Rescue the Franchise." Joe Gibbs has been out of football I think for a decade. Anyway, they're bringing him back. And I just like that they put a sports story on the front page.

"The White House Proposes Illegals Plan. Aliens Would Work in U.S." This is a front-page story in just about every paper I've looked at.

Now I look at -- yes, it's even here in "The Oregonian." The big story out West, in the Northwest, at least, has just been horrible weather. Stuck in an Icy Mess. Life Slows to a Crawl as Region Waits to Thaw Out." They get these ice storms in Oregon, in western Oregon mostly. And they've had some nasty ones. That's kind of a cool picture. And when it happens, it's nothing. Nothing gets done.

"The Des Moines Register." "Clark Surge Adds Wildcard To Race." They lead with politics. I wonder if they lead with politics every day. I'll bet they do for the next week or so. "Immigrant Plan Could Help Bush With Hispanics." "The Des Moines Register" takes a political look at what the president has proposed there.

Did you say one minute? Forty-five.

All right, this story is going to take a while. It's so good, though. "The Detroit News," down at the bottom. "Intercom Bandit Has His Way at Burger King Drive-Thru." OK, this is a guy who has commandeered the intercom at the Burger King. "Police are looking for a person who found a way to broadcast on the same frequency as the intercom, interrupting business transactions, most recently Tuesday, with obscene remarks to startle customers." This guy could be doing something productive with his life.

How are we doing? Fifteen.

"The Hartford Courant." "I Do Know Better," the governor and his problems.

And "The Chicago Sun-Times," a dusting. I assume It's going to get a bit of snow and continued cold. It's pretty cold in the country these days.

That's -- that's enough. That's morning papers.

We'll wrap up the night after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we leave you for tonight, a quick recap of our top stories: 35 American soldiers wounded tonight in a mortar attack on their base to the west of the Baghdad. According to the Pentagon, about six rounds hit home. All of the wounded were members of the Army's 541st Maintenance Battalion. No word yet on the extent of their injuries.

And, in Washington, the president outlined a plan to remake the country's immigration laws. The proposal would allow about eight million illegal immigrants to obtain legal status as temporary workers. It's drawing fire from both left and right.

Tomorrow on this program, the man who made a large part of the intellectual case for the war in Iraq and the global fight against terrorism, an influential adviser to President Bush and the author of "An End to Evil." Richard Perle joins us, along with David Frum, his co-author and a former speechwriter for the president. They will be here tomorrow -- that and much more. Hope you will be with us as well.

For most of you, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next.

We're all back 10:00 Eastern time tomorrow. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Immigration Plan Causes Controversy>


Aired January 7, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone. It's funny how a day can change in an instant. There was nothing about the day today that was ominous.
The president had given an interesting speech on immigration policy, a good and important issue.

New polls came out in New Hampshire.

There was a good and interesting story on abortion out of Texas and an effort to stop the building of an abortion clinic. It's a story we've wanted to run for a while. Today looked like the day.

It was a normal day in many respects and then late, late in the afternoon the sound that signal a major news event has occurred hit our computers. In an instant the day changed. War was again thrown in our faces. Iraq had been quiet this week. We hadn't run a single story out of there. That changed in the worst possible way.

Iraq leads the program and the whip tonight. CNN's Karl Penhaul has the watch in Baghdad, so Karl a headline from you tonight.

KARL PENHAUL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, 35 American soldiers wounded as a barrage of mortars slam into their base west of Baghdad.

BROWN: We'll get the details coming up in a little bit.

Also tonight from the White House a proposal for shaking up immigration laws that will spark considerable debate we expect. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King with us tonight, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Considerable to say the least, Aaron. The president says it makes both economic sense and is compassionate to let millions of illegal immigrants get at least temporary legal status but Democrats say the president doesn't go far enough and one ominous warning tonight from a key conservative in Congress -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

On to the governor of Connecticut and the scandal and scandal is the right word he is facing. CNN's Deborah Feyerick is covering the story, Deb a headline from you tonight. DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, a popular governor now facing the possibility of impeachment -- Aaron.

BROWN: Deb, thank you.

And finally New Hampshire and the man we'd hazard a guess never much liked being second on any occasion except possibly here. We're talking about candidate Wes Clark and some news he got today. CNN's Dan Lothian is in New Hampshire tonight -- Dan.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Aaron, according to the Clark campaign this has indeed been a very good day. He has moved up in the polls and it seems that every stop more and more people are turning out to hear his message. We'll take a look at what's behind the momentum -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dan, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also ahead on the program tonight was Saddam a paper tiger in fact when it came to weapons of mass destruction? We'll look at what's been found and, more importantly, what hasn't been found so far.

Later, the unscripted portion of the program, really? Bill Maher will be here to talk politics and other things too.

And we'll finish it up with a visit from the rooster as he drops off morning papers. That is clearly unscripted, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin in Iraq with the words of a Major General Charles Swanic (ph) who is in charge of the operations in the Sunni Triangle. "We're on the glide path toward success" he said talking about attacks on American soldiers, which had declined significantly in recent weeks but declining does not yet mean vanishing and today the general's image of a gentle glide path gave way for a moment to something less than that.

West of Baghdad tonight, members of the 541st Maintenance Battalion came under heavy fire so we go back to CNN's Karl Penhaul who has been piecing this together over the last couple of hours, Karl, good evening.

PENHAUL: Hi, Aaron.

The information came initially on a terse five line communique from military headquarters telling us that a barrage of six mortars had slammed into a logistics base west of Baghdad. It told us also that 35 American soldiers have been wounded.

One of those mortars scored a direct hit on living quarters, we're told. That's where the bulk of the casualties occurred. They did receive first aid treatment on the site but were then flown out and Medivaced out of that base for treatment in hospital treatment and further treatment. Now in a Pentagon communique that came a little later we were told that some of those soldiers have been returned to active duty, an indication there that their wounds were slight but it didn't give numbers. We're not still sure from Pentagon information or from military authorities here how many soldiers are still receiving hospital treatment in that attack.

Now this attack, Aaron, came on a day that only hours earlier the coalition administrator for Iraq, Ambassador Paul Bremer, had announced that he was going to release 500 Iraqi detainees, detainees that he described as a low security threat, detainees that he said would be released in a gesture of reconciliation for the Iraqi people and so when this attack came very much against the run of play, according to the other day's events -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's just go through a couple of quick questions and answer what you can. Do we have any sense yet how many, if any, of these injuries to these young American soldiers are life threatening?

PENHAUL: No. We don't have that information yet, Aaron. As I say, the details coming out of military headquarters here have been fairly scant. We do expect over the next couple or three hours perhaps to get more details of that as day breaks. Then they will have been sorted through their hospital treatment and that's the kind of information we'll be expecting then.

BROWN: Again, walk away from this one if you need to, do you have -- the military has put an enormous effort into force protection. Do you have any sense of what kind of security or barriers existed at that particular base?

PENHAUL: All these bases, Aaron, on the whole have very strong perimeter security often with large concrete barricades outside, sentry posts and also at key points manned by the tanks or Bradley fighting vehicles.

But this was a maintenance, a logistics base, west of Baghdad we're told, a fairly large affair and so for these mortar bombs could be lobbed over the top would not have too difficult, again depending on the caliber of the mortar but these things can fly from anything from four kilometers, about two and a half miles, up to much greater distances probably eight or nine miles. And so these attacks could have been carried out from some distance away and simply dropped into that camp.

BROWN: Karl, we'll let you continue trying to figure out the facts of all of this. We appreciate the facts you've come up with. Thank you, Karl Penhaul. He's had a busy night in Baghdad.

On now to a fundamental question here at home, who has the right to live and work in the United States, and by extension benefit from the protections provided by law.

The president today proposed a sweeping plan to revamp the country's immigration laws, reforms that would allow millions of illegal immigrants to obtain legal status as temporary workers. The president is loathed to call this an amnesty, a politically loaded term but if it isn't amnesty it is very close. Where jobs and immigrants intersect there's long been a flashpoint in the country, clearly is tonight.

Here again our Senior White House Correspondent John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): The president calls his new immigration plan economic necessity and a compassionate way to bring millions of illegal immigrants out of hiding.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We must make our immigration laws more rational and more humane and I believe we can do so without jeopardizing the livelihoods of American citizens.

KING: Mr. Bush wants Congress to create new three year temporary visas to match perspective immigrants with unfilled jobs in the United States and make illegal immigrants eligible for the visas if they can prove they already have a job and pay a registration fee.

One instant criticism was that Mr. Bush is offering a reward to lawbreakers, the eight to ten million illegal immigrants now in the United States.

REP. TOM TANCREDO (R), COLORADO: People are here illegally. They need to be deported. People who hire them need to be fined. If they keep doing it they need to be sent to jail. It's against the law.

KING: The White House insists it is not amnesty because the three year visas would be temporary, renewable once or twice. The workers then would return to their country of origin unless they qualify for a green card, permanent residency status in the meantime.

It was Mr. Bush's first major policy initiative of the campaign year, aimed in part at increasing his share of the critical Hispanic vote. Democratic rivals were quick to criticize and up the ante.

Massachusetts Senator John Kerry said the president's plan fails by not providing a meaningful path to becoming legal permanent residents.

Missouri Congressman Dick Gephardt called it at best a half measure with potential to do more harm than good.

Most Democrats favor granting permanent residency to illegal immigrants who pass a criminal background check and prove they have had jobs for at least two years.

Many of the president's business allies also favor permanent status for illegal immigrants.

RANDEL JOHNSON, U.S. CHAMBER OF COMMERCE: The reality of it is we're not going to deport all these people so we have to come up with something to deal with the situation or we can continue to put our head in the sand.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Now the dicey political challenge facing the president in this election year underscored tonight when a key conservative voice in Congress, the House Majority Leader Tom DeLay said he was glad the president was addressing the issue but Tom DeLay also said, Aaron, he has serious reservations about a plan from the president that Mr. DeLay says "seems to reward illegal behavior."

BROWN: There's some -- this is classically the devil is in the details and I've got a million questions. Let me just start with this one. I won't make you answer a million of them.

You've got the Chamber of Commerce supporting this, by and large unions are supportive of this, so where is the organized opposition? Where is the juice coming from if there's going to be an organized opposition?

KING: Well, Tom DeLay he does not say in his statement that he will flatly oppose this but if he does that would be enough juice to block it. He can keep enough conservatives in Congress and flatly just keep it off the calendar, so he can keep this from happening.

The big question is, is the president in a reelection year willing to put pressure on his conservative base that he needs so much to go along? Will he muscle them into doing this in an election year, a big question?

BROWN: So it really comes down to whether the Congress will move this that there's not an outside force, a sizeable outside force that will oppose it?

KING: Well, the Democrats say it doesn't go far enough.

BROWN: Yes.

KING: And that's what many conservatives are worried about. The president says he doesn't want amnesty. He doesn't want permanent legal status for those illegal immigrants in the United States but one of the key questions is what if enough Democrats in Congress and border state Republicans like John McCain of Arizona, the House members from Arizona, what if they passed amnesty, blanket amnesty would the president sign it even though he opposes it today?

BROWN: John, thank you, Senior White House Correspondent John King. That is the big picture if you will in broad strokes.

Now face it every policy story is made up of millions in many cases of human stories, the vast majority untold. Immigration reform may be a convenient label for the big story the shorthand used in these policy discussions we have but the reforms might mean for individuals, however, defies shorthand.

Here's CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): She asked us to call her Tina Gonzalez, trusted us not to show her face. She is in the U.S. illegally. She has been for 15 years.

It began the night she crossed by foot at San Ysidro like thousands before her and thousands since. She ran across the freeway with her husband and four young children. She made it to the fields and became a farm worker. These hands picked countless cherries and pears and peaches and did the work, she says, that Americans didn't want to do.

TINA GONZALEZ, UNDOCUMENTED WORKER (through translator): Well, we the workers we clean the houses of the rich. We take care of the children of the rich. We sew the pants for people in the fields. We bring to the table fruits and vegetables.

BUCKLEY: She lives in a neighborhood of Los Angeles that few would consider desirable but Mrs. Gonzalez, who is 50 now, still appreciates this country. An American flag hangs in her living room.

She's worked in the fields of America, in its restaurants, in its garment industry. It is a simple life with her husband and children and grandchildren. She came for a simple reason.

GONZALEZ (through translator): I wanted a better future for my children and my grandchildren.

BUCKLEY: She says the proposal by President Bush in her view falls short of expectations, a promise of three years is an offer that is unlikely to lure her to apply for a work permit after 15 years in the underground economy. What she would like is legitimacy in a country that demands her labor.

GONZALEZ (voice-over): We want respect for civil rights because we're human beings. We're just like everyone else.

BUCKLEY: Working in the shadows.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Los Angeles.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And we'll have more on this a little bit later in the program.

Also coming up a governor fights for his job, John Rowland of Connecticut says he is sorry for mistakes made but will not resign even as his troubles mount and the impeachment word is heard.

Later, Bill Maher stops by no doubt with things to say about politics, immigration, hopefully many other things as well, lots to do tonight.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In Connecticut, the mess at the governor's mansion is getting messier. Governor John Rowland used to be a rising Republican star, used to be. Now he's under federal investigation and growing pressure to resign. State legislators meet tomorrow to decide whether to begin impeachment proceedings against the governor, all of which explains Mr. Rowland's very public mea culpa tonight.

Here's CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK (voice-over): His approval rating sinking from the weight of scandal, Connecticut Governor John Rowland reached out directly to voters.

GOV. JOHN ROWLAND, CONNECTICUT: I lied and there are no excuses. My mistakes are my own and I offer my sincerest apologies to the people of Connecticut.

FEYERICK: Rowland's fighting for his political life. The once popular three term Republican governor now the focus of a federal investigation law enforcement sources say into alleged bribery and bid rigging. These charges have Connecticut lawmakers talking impeachment.

JAMES AMMAN, HOUSE MAJORITY LEADER: All aspects of what is possible have been discussed, impeachment, resignation, special inquiries through a hearing process. Some believe that it's best to just let the governor hang out there politically.

FEYERICK: At issue luxury improvements on the governor's lake home. Rowland said he paid for them, then admitted he did not, not the hot tub, not the heating system, not the cathedral ceilings.

Rowland conceded the people paying were employees and people seeking to do business with the state, one of them a big contractor with hundreds of millions in state deals. The governor denied influencing any contracts.

ROWLAND: I want you to know that I have never, not once, provided any favors or taken any actions in exchange for the gifts that I have received.

FEYERICK: Connecticut ethics laws make it illegal for the governor to accept any gifts more than $10 from people trying to do business with the state. Last year, one of the governor's top aides pleaded guilty to taking gold and cash from companies and, in turn, steering state contracts their way. The State Ethics Commission says it's now looking into a D.C. condo Rowland allegedly sold above market price.

It's the growing specter of corruption surrounding Rowland that's going to make it difficult for the governor to put the matter behind him quickly. This week federal agents subpoenaed the governor's personal financial records and state lawmakers are meeting to decide whether to begin impeachment proceedings.

JOHN ORMAN, POLITICAL ANALYST: The water has really started gushing out of the dam on this one.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FEYERICK: Both the House and Senate are controlled by Democrats. It's not clear whether Republicans will stand by their governor, especially with the assembly up for reelection next year. The governor says he has no plans to resign -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's go back to the Republicans because to me they're the most interesting players in this. Have they been in lock step in support of the governor? Where have they fallen to this point?

FEYERICK: They've been meeting with the governor. The governor's strategy is to get as many people into sort of closed door sessions as possible to plead his case. They've not taken a strong position one way or another. If they give the Democrats the wink to go ahead with impeachment proceedings then there's going to be no stopping it.

BROWN: Deb, thanks a lot, Deborah Feyerick tonight.

In presidential politics imagine this, a roomful of gleeful campaign workers high-fiving one another and chanting we're number two, we're Avis. We're no cigar but, hey, we're close. Now is this a reason to cheer, in January in New Hampshire maybe.

Eleven years ago Bill Clinton finished second in the New Hampshire primary. Tonight retired General Wesley Clark finds himself, according to the latest tracking poll, second in New Hampshire and for the first time leading John Kerry who happens to be from the state next door.

He is looking the general is, for what the father of another guy who also came in second in New Hampshire once called the Big Moe. His campaign for the moment seems to have found a bit of it.

Here's CNN's Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN (voice-over): New Hampshire resident Frank Dobisky is part of Wesley Clark's new army of supporters a recent convert who had been a diehard Dean backer until he met Clark at a campaign stop late last year.

You were equally committed to Dean, right?

FRANK DOBISKY, CLARK SUPPORTER: Yes. Yes.

LOTHIAN: You thought Dean was the person?

DOBISKY: Yes.

LOTHIAN: What made you change?

DOBISKY: I like the way the general spoke about how he would deal with Iraq. I thought he was very specific but he wasn't hard edged.

LOTHIAN: Clark, meeting with voters at a packed event in Peterboro, New Hampshire, is enjoying a sudden surge in national polls. Once trailing Howard Dean by 21 points, the race between the two candidates is now a virtual tie. What changed?

ANDREW SMITH: First he's shown the ability to raise money and the ability to raise money I think is key that it makes him a viable candidate. Secondly, that viability is being pulled together with a sense that he is a plausible alternative to Howard Dean.

LOTHIAN: Clark says he's not watching polls but admits voters are tuning into his message.

WESLEY CLARK (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm getting a lot of resonance out there for what I'm saying. I believe we need a higher standard of leadership in America and so do the people in New Hampshire.

LOTHIAN: For his part, Dean flipping pancakes at a campaign stop in Iowa seemed unconcerned.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Governor are you worried about the latest polls showing Clark (unintelligible)?

HOWARD DEAN, (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No.

LOTHIAN: But Dean's campaign appeared to be speaking volumes, volunteers handing out this anti-Clark flyer outside the retired general's New Hampshire event questioning whether he's a real Democrat, criticizing his shifting position on the war in Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN: One Clark aide said that the retired general has actually been fired at with real bullets and he can more than handle verbal attacks. The big question now is whether this is a surge followed by a dip or the beginning of a very competitive race -- Aaron.

BROWN: Yes, it is. There's another question here and that is how can Senator Kerry survive a third place showing in New Hampshire? This is his backyard.

LOTHIAN: It is his backyard and it will be very difficult for him if he does not do well here in New Hampshire and, of course, as we have seen over the past few weeks so much has changed so we never know. I mean he could still once the voters finally speak in the New Hampshire primary he could still pull in that second place but he does have an uphill battle if he does not pull into second here in New Hampshire.

BROWN: The next couple of weeks will be fascinating, Dan, thank you, Dan Lothian who is in New Hampshire tonight.

A few other stories making news around the country starting with a U.S. citizen suspected of plotting with al Qaeda to explode a dirty bomb.

The Justice Department said today it will ask the U.S. Supreme Court to throw out a lower court ruling that requires the release of Jose Padilla from military custody. He was arrested 20 months ago, designated an enemy combatant. He has not been charged. He has not been allowed to see a lawyer or anyone else.

Fort Campbell, Kentucky a big welcome home today for about 200 soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division's advance team, they are part of the first wave of combat troops returning home after completing a one year tour in Iraq. It will be April before all 20,000 members of the 101st come home.

On to the Mars rover, NASA said today its much anticipated trek across the Martian surface will be delayed by at least three days. The airbags that cushioned its landing are now obstructing its path. We talked about this last night on the program. The earliest the rover could get rolling would be a week from today.

A spokesman for the Reverend Billy Graham says the 85-year-old preacher is expected to recover fully after undergoing hip surgery yesterday at the Mayo Clinic in Jacksonville, Florida. Reverend Graham was visiting the clinic for a semi-annual checkup when he fell in his hotel room on Monday night.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT where are the weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet in Iraq so the question is was Saddam a paper tiger? Interesting perspective from a "Washington Post" reporter who has extensively, and we do mean extensively, reported on the story.

We'll take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: When Secretary of State Powell sat down today for an interview with ABC's Ted Koppel a lion's share of that interview centered on a report in today's "Washington Post" on Iraq and on weapons of mass destruction and the case for war, in short the gap between what was said in the selling of the war by the president and the secretary and what's been discovered so far in Iraq.

At each turn, the secretary when asked about specifics replied instead in generalities about Saddam Hussein's bad intentions, his prior bad acts and capability to make weapons of mass destruction if not a different tune than before at least a change in tone.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): The assertions were as clear as they were ominous.

BUSH: The evidence indicates that Iraq is reconstituting its nuclear weapons program.

BROWN: The intelligence, the world was told, was precise.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of chemical weapons agent.

BROWN: And more and more it seems it was wrong.

DAVID ALBRIGHT, PRESIDENT, INSTITUTE FOR SCIENCE AND INTERNATIONAL SECURITY: They're not finding anything in Iraq of any significance. I mean they've shifted from focusing on finding big stocks of chemical and biological weapons to trying to find programs and they're even having trouble with that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Have you found any weapons of mass destruction?

BROWN: The Chief Weapons Inspector David Kay is reportedly ready to quit, though he hasn't yet and the president who made those illusive weapons of mass destruction his primary though not his only reason to take the country to war now argues that weapons or not it doesn't really matter.

BUSH: This is a person who has used chemical weapons before, which indicated to me he was a threat. He invaded his neighbors before. This is a person who was defiant. He's a deceiver and he was a murderer in his own country. He was a threat.

TOM SQUITIERI, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT "USA TODAY": When questioned about what he said before the war and what he said now, what he's saying now, he sort of shrugs it off and says what's the difference? Well, I think most people who are objective will say there's a big difference if you have something in your hand ready to use it or if you're trying to acquire it.

BROWN: While the administration can easily shrug off the protesters and polls suggest there is not now a political problem for the president, the failure to deliver the goods may come back to haunt, if not this president then the country down the road.

SQUITIERI: It will be very difficult I presume at this point to have anybody sign on to helping the United States in another war that is going to be predicated on U.S. intelligence saying there's a threat to the United States or its allies.

ALBRIGHT: If they don't fix it and the intelligence remains questionable just because of what happened in Iraq then how can people in Congress and other parts of the government make decisions effectively about what to do in crises involving countries like Iran or North Korea?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Art Gellman wrote the piece in the "Post" today the "Washington Post" that got all this attention. It is quite a piece of work by the looks of it and by the reaction it is getting. Mr. Gellman is in Washington tonight. He joins us from there and we're glad to have him.

It's 6,000 words I think. That's a lot of work and we're not going to cover it all. Let's look at some broad strokes. Do the inspectors, the American team, believe anymore that they will find a cache of weapons of mass destruction, biological or chemical?

BARTON GELLMAN, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, "WASHINGTON POST": I'd have to say those expectations are months in the past neither a cache of active weapons, the lethal agents that make them up nor even active production lines for any of those weapons now look likely to be found in the inspector's own view.

BROWN: But what they have found is what? I mean I think a lot of, as I read the piece today, a lot of the pieces is on the one hand what the Americans thought they had or said they had and what the Iraqis really wanted to have if they could.

GELLMAN: There's definitely some deception been found by Iraq about aspirations or intentions or past desires or records they may have kept.

Saddam Hussein seems to have wanted to rebuild these programs. The question is whether he took active steps to do so and whether he was even capable of building the kinds of programs that worried the United States and the British government the most.

BROWN: On the first part, whether he took active steps, the answer is, sort of?

GELLMAN: Yes.

Look, I interviewed a missile scientists who had secret drawings, computer drawings and computations for a family of missiles that could eventually have struck at Saudi Arabia, Israel, Turkey. But they were drawings. They existed on compact disks. There were no actual missiles.

And experts that I spent many hours with evaluating his plans said that, if he could have built it at all, it would have taken six years. So the question is not whether they wanted them or took preliminary steps, or at least not only those things. It's also whether these missiles were something that would become part of Iraq's arsenal anytime soon.

BROWN: There's a key moment in this story which really plays out over a decade, where the -- one of Saddam's son-in-laws defects and he is debriefed extensively. The importance of that moment is?

GELLMAN: Look, everyone knew who has followed this for a long time that Hussein Kamel, Saddam's son-in-law, gave away a big chunk of secrets when he left Iraq. The question is whether he gave away all of them, and especially on one point. Did Iraq destroy all the biological weapons agents that it produced before 1991? Iraq said yes. The United States and others doubted it for a long time. Now, what I came across was a new document. It's a handwritten damage report inside the Iraqi government that went to Qusay Hussein, Saddam's son, saying, the son-in-law has defected. Here are all the secrets he knows that we haven't told anyone. And one of the secrets is that we destroyed all the biological weapons not when we said we did in 1990, but, in fact, the following summer in 1991.

But what it says, unambiguously, is, we destroyed all the biological weapons. And it was those same weapons that Colin Powell was referring to on February 5 when he said that Iraq still had, for instance, some thousands of liters left of anthrax.

BROWN: Does the reporting give us any clue as to why the American and presumably British intelligence was wrong?

GELLMAN: It's a really big, complicated question, and it offers only hints.

There's one intriguing element here that I came across and didn't expect to come across. And that is the extent to which Iraqi scientists and engineers and program managers seem to have been lying to their bosses and ultimately to Saddam Hussein. There was a lot of inflation of progress reports, a lot of creation of false progress reports. Generals and scientists and company managers told me that you just don't tell Saddam Hussein, no, what you want can't be done.

And so people would tell him, yes, we're doing it, yes, sir, it's happening. And so it appears that he received a lot of information that would exaggerate, in his own mind, the extent to which he had active programs. And it may be that some of that same information made its way out into Western intelligence reports.

BROWN: We appreciate your time tonight. It's a terrific piece of work. I assume it's still online, for people who don't have access to the paper, to the paper copy of the paper. They can go take a look at all of it. It's a nice piece of work. And, again, thank you.

GELLMAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Bart Gellman of "The Washington Post" tonight.

Still to come, we'll circle back to the president's immigration plan, a creative way, some will say, to deal with a real problem, or was just it a political-year gambit that rewards law-breakers? Both sides have a feel for this. And we'll hear from both sides.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More now on the president's proposal for changing the rules affecting perhaps millions of immigrants, most of them illegally in the country. This is one of the stories with a lot of moving parts and lots of implications. It's drawing praise, it's drawing praise fire, as you might imagine, in many quarters tonight.

Joining us to talk about it, from Washington, Katherine Culliton of the Mexican American Legal Defense and Education Fund; and Dan Stein of FAIR, the Federation of American Immigration Reform.

And we are pleased to have you both with us.

Mr. Stein, let me start with you.

You're not happy.

DAN STEIN, FEDERATION FOR AMERICAN IMMIGRATION REFORM: Well, we're looking for immigration reform, but what we got was something entirely different.

When we look at the president's proposal, what we see are low wages and desperate workers, a program that rewards cheaters, people who jump the line, basically ripping off the taxpayers, stealing residency, and working illegally. And the communities that are trying to deal with the massive inflow of immigrants, because, after all, employers are driving this process, are middle-class taxpayers, who have to pay for hospitals, roads, schools, bringing in workers whose income-earning ability simply doesn't put them above their cost to the community to support them.

And while employers like this low-wage process, it's killing, it's screwing the little guy.

BROWN: OK.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry. You've laid out the sort of central argument. Let me have Ms. Culliton respond a bit.

As I read some of your remarks today, you're pleased, if not exactly ecstatic.

KATHERINE CULLITON, MEXICAN AMERICAN LEGAL DEFENSE AND EDUCATION FUND: Right. Exactly.

These workers are doing jobs that U.S. workers don't want. And that's why we're part of a very broad coalition supporting immigration reform. That's why all the major labor unions support immigrants rights and legalization, along with the U.S. Chamber, religious groups across the board, and nonpartisan Latino groups.

What President Bush did to clarify today that he's still in favor of immigration reform because it's good for America. Our native work force is aging. We're going to need more immigrant labor in the future. We need to make the process safe and legal. Also, our secretary of homeland security, Tom Ridge, has looked into matter, found that immigrants don't pose a security risk, per se. And he's in favor of legalization of legal immigrants for national security reasons. We think we should pay attention to what they're saying.

BROWN: Mr. Stein, one of the things struck me about this, or several, is that unions, by and large, are supportive of it. And you would think that, if the -- one of the concerns was that it would be taking American jobs, that unions wouldn't jump on this. How do you explain that?

STEIN: Oh, that's pretty easy.

Unionized labor is virtually nonexistent anymore in this country. It was undermined by a variety of things, including, remember, NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement. We swallowed that and sent a lot of jobs out of the country, because that was going to stem the tide of illegal immigration from Mexico. Well, that didn't do the trick.

Now we're sitting here looking at a situation where you have these labor union officials who think they're doing the right thing by getting amnesty to these illegal workers. But the workers themselves, because they're not unionized, really aren't -- they're not part of the union process. So unions are basically desperate to try to be relevant again, to try to unionize a labor force that was blown out by the illegal labor flow.

Thirty years ago, a unionized American meat packer was making $35 an hour in real wages. And today, they're making $8 an hour and getting an annual wage increase of 25 cents an hour a year. But the most important thing about the proposal is its appalling lack of recognition of the last 25 years.

The president's proposal looks exactly like an agricultural worker amnesty that Congress passed in 1986. And the fraud rates in that program were 70 percent. So, when you talk about national security, you're talking about giving documents to people whose identity we haven't verified.

BROWN: Ms. Culliton, one of the things that I found really interesting about all of this is the power that this gives to an employer over an employee. You got any concerns there?

CULLITON: Well, we are concerned with guest worker proposals because of the historic abuses that have happened.

But the president also said today that he's in favor of equal labor protections. We can help him implement that. We're civil rights lawyers. We have had experience with immigration reform. And the things that have gone wrong in the past, we can put in protections for immigrant workers and for U.S. workers. Any package we would support would, of course, have equal labor protections and a path to permanent status.

All that we're saying is that this generation of immigrants, many of whom are Latino, deserve the same chance as all the generations of immigrants before them that made America great. They're contributing billions to the U.S. economy. And they even create jobs for U.S. citizens. Rather than taking out, they're contributing and keeping us strong. And this is a phenomenon that is going to continue in the future. Our native work force is going to get older and older.

BROWN: I know.

CULLITON: And we're going to need new migrant labor.

BROWN: Just as quickly as you can, does it trouble you at all that these are people who did break the law to come into the country?

CULLITON: Yes, it does, but what we're talking about is not an amnesty.

In 1986, all you had to prove was that you're here. And it was also only a one-time solution. The current proposals, President Bush's proposal, and what we would support are an earned legalization, where you have to prove that you have a job, you're not displacing a U.S. worker, you pay taxes and you pass a security check. This is completely in the national interests of the United States. That's what we need to look at.

If everyone were deported under these circumstances, our economy would collapse.

STEIN: Not true.

CULLITON: We need to look at a real solution to the real problems of the U.S. economy.

STEIN: That's not true.

BROWN: Mr. Stein and Ms. Culliton, thank you both. We're just beginning a debate that is obviously going to go on for some time. Hopefully, we'll see you both again soon. Thank you very much.

(CROSSTALK)

CULLITON: Thank you.

STEIN: Thank you.

BROWN: A couple of other items here in our "MONEYLINE Roundup" before we go to break, starting with Enron's former chief financial officer, Andrew Fastow, he and his wife both reportedly negotiating a plea deal with federal prosecutors. No specifics yet. This is significant, of course, because it could be a sign that Mr. Fastow is ready to testify against his former bosses, including Ken Lay.

The doctor accused of coercing a dying George Harrison into autographing his son's guitar is now offering to donate the instrument to charity. This story is unbelievable. The late Beatles estate is suing Dr. Gil Lederman for $10 million, accusing him of, among other things, of bizarre and inappropriate behavior. The doctor, who was treating Mr. Harrison for brain cancer, allegedly held the dying man's hand and helped him sign his name on the guitar. It is alleged.

Markets today were mixed, the Dow industrials giving ground, as they say downtown, for the second straight day, probably profit- taking, like I know what that actually means.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we'll get some different perspectives on the day's events. Bill Maher joins us. And we'll be glad to see him.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, we really don't need to have a reason to have Bill Maher on the program, except it's occasionally nice to laugh and think at the same time. Walking and chewing gum, as you might imagine, just doesn't work behind the desk here.

Besides, laughing and thinking are highly underrated, we believe. So we're happy to see Mr. Maher, who is the host of "Real Time With Bill Maher" on HBO. HBO and CNN are owned by the same company, AOL...

BILL MAHER, COMEDIAN: They are?

BROWN: Well, it's not AOL Time Warner.

MAHER: No.

BROWN: It was, but it's not. It's just Time Warner.

MAHER: We got a quickie divorce, like Britney Spears.

BROWN: That's right. Perhaps not quick enough, though.

Nice to see you.

MAHER: Nice to see you, finally in person.

BROWN: Yes. You go back to work soon, right?

MAHER: Yes, January 16, we start our new season. We're moving up to 8:00 at night.

BROWN: On Saturday?

MAHER: On Friday nights.

BROWN: Friday night.

MAHER: So, we were on at 11:00 last year. So I think we got a raise, or a promotion or something.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Does it change the program to do it at 8:00? I guess because it's HBO, it probably doesn't.

MAHER: It might, only because I get up so late in the day, that, to be at work at -- that's 5:00 on the West Coast. Let me tell you, that's a burden for me, but I'll get back into it.

BROWN: Let's talk about the news a bit and you.

Do people have an expectation of you and your politics that's sometimes hard to meet? And here's why I ask. Because I have always sensed in you some ambivalence where Iraq and the war was concerned.

MAHER: Absolutely. That's one reason I'm glad I'm not a politician and why I always say I never would be. It's because you can be ambivalent. When you're a politician, you can't be.

And look at Howard Dean. You can't even be angry. I think being angry is a wonderful thing, especially in this country, when there's so much to be angry about. But, apparently, when Howard Dean gets angry, they say, come on, you're getting away from the party's core principles of spineless lethargy. Let's have a little compassionate complacency among the Democrats.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Well, but the concern is that perhaps he doesn't have the temperament for the job good.

MAHER: What does that mean? You can't win.

You know what? If you don't have some passion, then you're a soulless automaton like Al Gore. He didn't have enough passion.

BROWN: Right.

MAHER: But if you have some anger, like Dean does, which is what I like -- it's what I looked about McCain in the year 2000. They said the same thing about him, too angry to be president. He's cranky. Well, you know what? Maybe 5 1/2 years in a box in Vietnam makes you a little cranky. I'm glad he was cranky. He's a guy who is forcing some issues we need to see forced in this country. I think angry people do that.

BROWN: Are you interested in the way the campaign is being covered? Do you think it's -- has it been -- is it just tedious to you?

MAHER: It's infuriating, because it's always about the horse race.

I watched the debate the other day and a lot of the questions were, you're in single digits in the polls. Why is that? Why don't you get out of the race? How come more people aren't voting for you? Well, maybe it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Maybe it's because you guys in the media constantly focus on that. So it's never about the ideas that somebody is presenting.

BROWN: But is it not fair to say that, if you say -- if you ask some really interesting and thoughtful question on Social Security, what you get is a very standard, rehearsed response?

MAHER: That's true, too.

BROWN: Yes.

MAHER: So I don't know where you win there.

BROWN: Right. I guess you just run 30-second ads.

MAHER: But then, if you get the passionate response, you're too angry.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: And we can't have the angry people here. Only cows can be mad in this country.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: That doesn't bother -- I read today that sales at Wendy's...

BROWN: Yes?

MAHER: ... went up 9 percent last month, when mad cow was in the news.

BROWN: It actually went up?

MAHER: It went up. I assume because meat was in the news and people went, oh, meat.

BROWN: You know, I haven't had a burger in a while.

MAHER: Honey, fuel up the SUV. Let's go and get some meat.

BROWN: How's the governor of your state doing?

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: Well, you know, he wasn't my choice, but...

BROWN: How is he doing, do you think?

MAHER: Well, his plan to solve the big problem that we were all worried about is to borrow more money. I don't see how that's actually solving the problem.

And also, he reminds me of what I keep referring to as a banner year of Republican hypocrisy. I can't believe the Democrats cannot take advantage of this. When you put together Bill Bennett, Rush Limbaugh, Arnold Schwarzenegger, George Bush and the flight suit, Strom Thurmond, they can't put this all together and say, this is a very hypocritical bunch of people?

BROWN: Well, perhaps there are hypocrites on all sides of this.

MAHER: Yes, but come on. When you talk about all the things that went on, in the area of sex with Arnold Schwarzenegger, with race with Strom Thurmond, with drugs, Bill Bennett with virtue, there's nary an issue where they didn't step in it last year.

And, for some reason, the unangry lame-os in the Democratic Party can't make political hay out of that. They deserve to lose.

BROWN: Do you enjoy your time off, real quick?

MAHER: I love it.

(CROSSTALK)

MAHER: I told you last time, I was working on my herb garden.

BROWN: I know. You ready to go back to work?

MAHER: On the herb garden?

BROWN: No.

MAHER: You bet. I have got some cayenne pepper.

(CROSSTALK)

MAHER: Oh.

(LAUGHTER)

MAHER: Yes, I am. I'm ready to go back.

BROWN: It's good to finally see you in person.

MAHER: Hey, I wish you'd come out and do our thing some time.

BROWN: I would love to.

MAHER: Really?

BROWN: All you got to do is ask.

MAHER: Really?

BROWN: Yes.

MAHER: Because I thought you CNN guys couldn't do that.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Well, I don't know. You asked me if I would do it. You didn't ask my bosses if I could do it.

MAHER: Yes. That could happen.

BROWN: But I'm sure they'd like that. I think they would.

MAHER: It's a done deal, then.

BROWN: Good. I'll be on the flight soon. (LAUGHTER)

MAHER: It's a lot warmer.

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world. And we have a passel full of them today, though I don't really know how big a passel is.

"The Washington Times." We haven't had for a while. And I think it printed funny. Or they've changed the layout, but I like the story anyway. "Back to the Future. Redskins Recall Joe Gibbs to Rescue the Franchise." Joe Gibbs has been out of football I think for a decade. Anyway, they're bringing him back. And I just like that they put a sports story on the front page.

"The White House Proposes Illegals Plan. Aliens Would Work in U.S." This is a front-page story in just about every paper I've looked at.

Now I look at -- yes, it's even here in "The Oregonian." The big story out West, in the Northwest, at least, has just been horrible weather. Stuck in an Icy Mess. Life Slows to a Crawl as Region Waits to Thaw Out." They get these ice storms in Oregon, in western Oregon mostly. And they've had some nasty ones. That's kind of a cool picture. And when it happens, it's nothing. Nothing gets done.

"The Des Moines Register." "Clark Surge Adds Wildcard To Race." They lead with politics. I wonder if they lead with politics every day. I'll bet they do for the next week or so. "Immigrant Plan Could Help Bush With Hispanics." "The Des Moines Register" takes a political look at what the president has proposed there.

Did you say one minute? Forty-five.

All right, this story is going to take a while. It's so good, though. "The Detroit News," down at the bottom. "Intercom Bandit Has His Way at Burger King Drive-Thru." OK, this is a guy who has commandeered the intercom at the Burger King. "Police are looking for a person who found a way to broadcast on the same frequency as the intercom, interrupting business transactions, most recently Tuesday, with obscene remarks to startle customers." This guy could be doing something productive with his life.

How are we doing? Fifteen.

"The Hartford Courant." "I Do Know Better," the governor and his problems.

And "The Chicago Sun-Times," a dusting. I assume It's going to get a bit of snow and continued cold. It's pretty cold in the country these days.

That's -- that's enough. That's morning papers.

We'll wrap up the night after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we leave you for tonight, a quick recap of our top stories: 35 American soldiers wounded tonight in a mortar attack on their base to the west of the Baghdad. According to the Pentagon, about six rounds hit home. All of the wounded were members of the Army's 541st Maintenance Battalion. No word yet on the extent of their injuries.

And, in Washington, the president outlined a plan to remake the country's immigration laws. The proposal would allow about eight million illegal immigrants to obtain legal status as temporary workers. It's drawing fire from both left and right.

Tomorrow on this program, the man who made a large part of the intellectual case for the war in Iraq and the global fight against terrorism, an influential adviser to President Bush and the author of "An End to Evil." Richard Perle joins us, along with David Frum, his co-author and a former speechwriter for the president. They will be here tomorrow -- that and much more. Hope you will be with us as well.

For most of you, "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" is next.

We're all back 10:00 Eastern time tomorrow. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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Immigration Plan Causes Controversy>