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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Fallout From Terror in Spain; Police Name Suspect in Ohio Highway Shootings

Aired March 16, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening from Islamabad. Behind us the center of the Pakistani government and it is a government with plenty to think about tonight.
Not far from here, at least in miles, 180 miles or so, there is an area of Pakistan that is in many respects centuries away. It is tribal, feudal, at least to the central government virtually lawless and it is there that Osama bin Laden and the Taliban remnants are believed to be hiding.

Today there has been a fierce fight there between the Pakistani Army and the other side. There have been many casualties, how many we don't know, and we'll have more reporting on that later in the program.

The significance of that is that the Pakistani government of President Musharraf is willing to go into that area and take on the extremists even as his country tries to decide which side in this war on terror it is on. Islamic fundamentalism has a foothold in Pakistan.

We'll have more on that as the week goes on. We'll talk to the president of Pakistan. We'll talk with Secretary of State Powell as well but much of our reporting tonight still has to do with Iraq, which we just left.

We'll take a look at the political problems, the prospects of civil war. We'll take a look at the dangers the Americans still face and, as we learned again today, those dangers are considerable.

And we'll take a look at the cost, not in terms of dollars but in lives changed. Beth Nissen reports tonight on the wounded, all of that from here tonight, a fair amount of the program but there is other news as well and for that we go to Anderson Cooper in New York to begin the whip -- Anderson, good evening.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, good evening. Thanks very much, back to you in just a few moments.

The whip begins tonight with the lingering repercussions of Thursday's terror attacks in Spain and the Bush administration's effort to cope, so we start off at the White House with CNN's Suzanne Malveaux, Suzanne a headline.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, despite the turnover in Spain, President Bush insisting tonight that, yes, the 30-plus other members of the coalition in Iraq are committed to making it work and are there to stay.

COOPER: On to Madrid now the investigation and what's being learned about who done it. CNN's Al Goodman with that for us, Al a headline from you.

AL GOODMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Spanish investigators have identified six Moroccans who put the bombs on the trains. Only one is in custody. The manhunt is on -- Anderson.

COOPER: Well finally, the hunt for a sniper and the name and face of a suspect. This one started unfolding last night, swung into high gear today. CNN's Jonathan Freed with the duty tonight, Jonathan the headline.

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the naming of a sniper suspect has brought some relief to people here but they're saying that they cannot let themselves relax at least not yet until a suspect is caught.

COOPER: Thanks, Jonathan. Back to all of you shortly.

Also ahead on the program tonight, much more from Aaron in the Mid East. We're going to get the differing perspective on what's happening in Iraq from a soldier at the top of the ladder and some much further down.

Beth Nissen looks at the ever growing number of Americans both injured and sick coming out of Iraq and how they are being treated.

And, Aaron will have more of his interview with the top general in the region, John Abizaid. Tonight the search for new leaders for Iraq. All that to come in the hour ahead.

We begin with what the pundit George Will today called the most efficient explosions in the history of terrorism, detonated 74 hours before polls opened in a national election. He writes, "the reverberations toppled a U.S. ally."

There are those, however, who differ with such a dire assessment for reasons philosophical, tactical or political count President Bush among the skeptics tonight.

Again, here's CNN's Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): President Bush refused to connect Spain's worst terrorist attack in history and the election ousting its pro- Bush pro-war prime minister. To do so, the administration believes would give the terrorists a big win.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These are cold- blooded killers. I mean they've killed innocent people to try to shake our will. That's what they want to do and they'll never shake the will of the United States.

MALVEAUX: Despite losing a key ally in the war with Iraq, Spain's Jose Maria Aznar, the administration is stressing that it still has broad international support.

Meeting in the oval office with the prime minister of the Netherlands, many in his country shaky following the bombings in Spain want their 1,000 troops in Iraq pulled out. Mr. Bush said now is not the time for allies to back down.

BUSH: I would ask them to think about the Iraqi citizens who don't want people to withdraw because they want to be free.

MALVEAUX: But some believe the administration's tough talk on Iraq, now a year after the war in Iraq, is not the best way to keep the coalition together.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: We should stop this talk of unilateralism. We should stop this bravado that has characterized some parts of the administration. Talk about the need for NATO to work together. Get NATO into Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Now the administration is considering a variety of ways to continue to reach out to Spain's new prime minister who called the war and the occupation of Iraq a disaster. One possibility a Bush visit to Spain to meet with the new leader -- Anderson.

COOPER: Suzanne, is there any more talk at the White House about reaching out to the United Nations? Obviously one of the new Spain -- Spanish leader has said that unless the U.N. takes over control after June they will pull out.

MALVEAUX: Well, absolutely, and they're fairly confident they're going to get that U.N. Security Council resolution that will give Spain that international cover to allow their troops to stay. That is something that they'll be working on quite earnestly in the months to come.

COOPER: All right, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House thanks.

In Spain, the investigation has yielded suspects, evidence and connections, connections to other bombings and other plots and allegedly to al Qaeda as well.

From Madrid now here's CNN's Al Goodman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOODMAN (voice-over): Published reports here say a cell phone found with an unexploded bomb links 30-year-old Jamal Zougam to last Thursday's attacks. Zougam's name has come up before in an anti- terror indictment filed in Spain last September.

The court documents say Zougam was a follower of this man, Imad Eddin Barakat Yarkas now facing terror charges. The investigating magistrate accuses Barakat Yarkas of leading al Qaeda's Madrid cell.

Zougam holds Moroccan citizenship and Moroccan investigators tell CNN Zougam also has been linked to two brothers now held in connection with bombings in Casablanca last May that killed 31 people.

One of those brothers, Abdelaziz Benyaich lived in Madrid with another man David Courtailler. Courtailler had earlier shared an apartment in London with Zacarias Moussaoui who now sits in a U.S. jail accused of being part of the 9/11 conspiracy. Investigators also have connected Courtailler to Richard Reed, the man convicted of trying to blow up an airliner with a bomb hidden in his shoes.

MARC SAGEMAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: They developed this militant and violent view of Islam, interpretation of Islam, which of course made them susceptible to joining al Qaeda.

GOODMAN: At least six men, three Moroccans, two Indians and an Algerian are being held in connection to the Madrid bombings the latest in the northern city of San Sebastian.

Regional law enforcement officials told CNN that police remembered threats made by an Algerian man two months ago that there would be deaths in Atocha. Police didn't give it much credence then but after the bombs at the Atocha train station they went looking for him too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOODMAN: Anderson, here is the latest in the investigation, photographs of Jamal Zougam being interrogated by police at the telephone store this in the Wednesday morning edition. It's Wednesday morning here in Madrid, of the largest circulation newspaper "El Pais."

Now this photograph has been out for some hours but this is the first time that this largest circulation newspaper has put a name on it as one of the prime suspects in the Thursday bombings.

I'm at the Atocha train station which is right behind me. It took about half of the fatalities in this bomb attack of the 201 people who have died, Anderson. You can see this shrine that has been put up here in the hours after the bombing and it has just grown and grown and grown, candles, flowers. We have a few onlookers at this hour. It's 4:00 in the morning here in Madrid but these types of shrines are throughout the station -- back to you Anderson.

COOPER: Al, you mentioned a number of the suspects, only really one suspect is in custody at this point. Have arrest warrants been issued? Are they -- you said the manhunt was on. How active is it?

GOODMAN: Well, we can assume it is very active. The government, which had been extremely transparent, that's what they said they were doing right up to the election which, of course, had this upset victory and many say that was due to the bombings and where there's a new Socialist prime minister elect, as you just reported. The government suddenly has gotten very quiet. The conservative government is still in power until there's a new prime minister sworn in and they have suddenly gotten very tight-lipped.

So, we do know from our own source here, a Spanish investigative source, has told CNN that, yes, there are at least six Moroccans who put bombs on those trains and they've been identified and that police are after them but we don't know exactly the details about how they're trying to round them up but we can be sure it is very vigorous.

The whole nation wants to know who did this and why? Many people think that it's because of Spain's support for the U.S.-led war in Iraq and this, of course, is why the Socialist prime minister elect has said he's going to pull back the troops if there's not a U.N. mandate -- Anderson.

COOPER: And it's not clear, am I correct in assuming at this point, whether or not the suspects are still in Spain or if they have already left the country?

GOODMAN: That is unclear. As my report just said, there are six men in custody, three Moroccans, two men from India and the Algerian man who is the latest person we know was arrested in northern Spain.

But of those only one apparently is one of the suspects who actually put bombs on the train and the other five that police have identified through photographs from the surveillance cameras, through talking to survivors, showing photographs around, that is where the manhunt is.

The Moroccan authorities have been here almost from day one helping the Spanish authorities to try to locate these people, so there is international cooperation and the Spanish authorities have said they're getting it from a lot of other countries, including from the United Kingdom. They haven't mentioned publicly the United States but the United States has been working very closely with the Spaniards since the 9/11 attacks -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Al Goodman in Madrid thanks very much.

On to Columbus, Ohio now where a mystery is now a manhunt. Twenty-four hours after police named a suspect in a string of shootings that had long stumped them the search to find him continues. The 28-year-old man is a local resident with a history of mental illness. Today his sister pleaded for him to call home as more details about his life emerge.

Here's CNN's Jonathan Freed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREED (voice-over): The day after he became a wanted man, Charles A. McCoy, Jr.'s family begged him to give himself up.

AMY WALTON, MCCOY'S SISTER: Mom and I need you to call us. We will arrange for you to come home. FREED: After ten months in the grip of fear, the people of Columbus, Ohio are learning more and more about the man police believe has been stalking them on the road and shooting at their homes.

DAVID BROWN, NEIGHBOR: The shot, you know, that's who he is. He lives right there.

FREED: Imagine discovering that the suspect is the same man you think you helped out after his car hit a neighborhood street sign a while back.

BRIEN TAYNOR, NEIGHBOR: He just looked like an average Joe. You just never know.

FREED: The Franklin County Sheriff's Office told CNN on Tuesday that the man who grew up nearby and played high school football is now considered suicidal with homicidal tendencies.

There have been 24 shootings, including a deadly one in November, targeting moving cars on or near the Columbus beltway blowing out tires and shattering windshields.

CHIEF DEPUTY TEVE MARTIN, FRANKLIN COUNTY: The investigation conducted has identified McCoy as the suspect in these I-270 cases.

FREED: McCoy is charged with shooting a house in the area and ballistics link that incident to some of the highway sniper shootings. His mother filed a missing person's report. Noteworthy, she says he had a goatee at the time he disappeared.

There is also some community frustration. Court records show that McCoy has a history of DUIs and speeding and that he was pulled over twice since the attacks started but Columbus is not without hope.

BRIAN WORBY, NEIGHBOR: That it will end peacefully without anybody else getting shot.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREED: Now, Anderson, the local paper here the "Columbus Dispatch" is reporting today that the search for McCoy was kicked off when his father gave police two handguns and then there proved to be a ballistic match -- back to you.

COOPER: All right. Jonathan Freed thanks very much from Columbus.

Ahead on the program tonight we'll look at the political fallout here at home from the attacks in Spain and the war in Iraq.

And later we'll return to Iraq for a look at the situation there through the eyes of the American soldiers on the ground.

And later the man who commands those soldiers, General John Abizaid and his thoughts about the process of looking for new leaders for Iraq. Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: A quick look at other news around the world right now starting in southern Gaza, where late this evening Israeli tanks crossed the border and an Israeli helicopter strike killed at least two people and injured seven.

Hours earlier rockets fired from an Israeli helicopter destroyed a house allegedly being used by Islamic jihad activists. Two Palestinians were killed, 13 others wounded, all of this part of stepped up military operations in Gaza following a double suicide bombing over the weekend which killed ten Israelis.

Israeli soldiers said today they prevented a suicide bombing yesterday at a West Bank border crossing. They say this young boy was set up by Palestinian militants who gave him a bag that unknown to him contained a bomb. It was meant to explode as he carried it through the checkpoint. There are conflicting reports of the boy's age. He was either as young as ten or as old as 12.

In northern Russia a powerful explosion at an apartment building early this morning killed at least 24 people, injured more than a dozen. Officials believe natural gas may be the cause. Two vagrants are also being sought for questioning as rescue workers continue their search tonight.

Well, dangers around the world continue to shape politics stateside as they always do. This Friday marks the one year anniversary of the invasion of Iraq and the White House is spending a lot of time this week making the case that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein was essential to making life in the U.S. safer. Mr. Bush's opponents, including John Kerry of course, take a different view.

Rand Beers has a unique perspective. He used to be the senior director for combating terrorism at the National Security Council. He was also President Bush's special assistant for counterterrorism. A year ago this week he resigned and went to work ultimately for Senator Kerry's campaign. He joins us now from Washington.

Rand, thanks for being on the program. In this past year since you have resigned from the White House, any major surprises in the war on terror and the war in Iraq to you?

RAND BEERS, KERRY CAMPAIGN NATIONAL SECURITY AND HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I think that it was a surprise to all of us that we didn't find the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, at least in the chemical and the biological areas.

COOPER: Because you, yourself, have said you believed they were going to be there.

BEERS: I did. I read the various intelligence reports and I thought at the time when I read them that they made sense and so, yes, I was surprised.

COOPER: And in the war in Afghanistan how do you see it going because one of the reasons you said originally that you had left the White House a year ago, I think tomorrow is the anniversary of leaving, was the way that war was being prosecuted not enough money, not enough resources?

BEERS: Well, I still continue to be very much concerned about what's going on there. There's a lot of violence that's going on that was starting to show up at the time that I submitted my resignation and I think that while the administration has made some additional efforts and provided some additional money we still haven't built an adequate security force there.

We still haven't dealt with the warlords. We still have problems with respect to the whole issue of how to build a stable government in Afghanistan and we still are neglecting doing anything serious about the opium poppy crop, which is a $1 billion slush fund for corruption and violence.

So, I think that this is a test that requires even more attention. I'm glad that the administration is moving in that direction but I think there's definitely still more to be done.

COOPER: The attack in Spain, the aftermath, the change in the government, can you look at that in any way and not see it as a victory for terrorists?

BEERS: Well, it certainly is a very troubled situation. We are not absolutely sure yet who did it, so I think to some degree it's hard to try to speculate without having that information.

COOPER: But you think al Qaeda is not involved, you don't think it's some sort of Islamic extremists?

BEERS: No, no, no. I'm simply saying that we don't know for sure that it was al Qaeda. We don't know for sure that ETA was or was not involved and those kinds of combinations are going to make a difference in the evaluation of how one -- how a government thinks about it. But it does appear that the Spanish people reacted in a way against the government in one way or another failing them and choosing another government.

COOPER: But doesn't -- I mean whether or not it was al Qaeda or an al Qaeda related group or an affinity group or even ETA, the fact that there's this public perception out there that it was in some way linked to al Qaeda and then you have this change in Spanish, change in the fundamental government, again I have to ask I mean that seems to outsiders to me a victory for terrorists.

BEERS: Well, I think that in one way or the other that it is a victory for terrorists, yes.

COOPER: Is al Qaeda stronger today or -- I mean I keep hearing that they're no longer sort of vertically integrated that they are more sort of horizontally integrated. People compare it to sort of multi-headed hydras. You cut off one head. Other heads pop up. As you see it, is it as strong today, stronger, how do you quantify it?

BEERS: Well, I think that you've alluded to how I would describe it and George Tenet, the CIA director has described this process. Al Qaeda is one organization. It has a number of affiliates and another group of associated movements and it has grown, I think, and remains a very dangerous movement in the world at large and I don't think we can take as much solace as the administration sometimes claims for having eliminated two-thirds of the known leadership.

We certainly don't know what we don't know and we do know that al Qaeda has been pretty good at replacing people who have been removed and we do know that other movements, which we haven't know all that much about are taking over different roles and missions in this global jihadist movement.

COOPER: Any regrets about leaving the White House, any regrets about what you've been doing the last year?

BEERS: Absolutely not. I sleep better trying to help John Kerry become president and while there are obvious strains on the campaign from the time and the effort that's necessary, I'm really happy to be doing what I'm doing.

COOPER: Well, you've had a fascinating career and I appreciate you being on the program tonight. Thanks, Rand Beers.

BEERS: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

COOPER: Tomorrow the administration's Secretary of State Colin Powell sits down for an exclusive interview with Aaron Brown. Again that is tomorrow night on this program along with all the other developments from Iraq and the war on terror.

Money matters now starting with what a prosecutor says Dennis Kozlowski did with his company's money. In closing arguments of his trial today, the prosecution painted the former Tyco CEO as a corporate looter who used Tyco as his personal piggybank to the tune of $600 million.

Referring to Mr. Kozlowski and his co-defendant, Manhattan Assistant D.A. Ann Donnelly (ph) said, "They are not here because they blurred the line between themselves and Tyco. They are here" she said "because they obliterated it." Jurors are expected to get the case sometime next week.

The Commerce Department says housing starts fell four percent last month. The experts were anticipating a slight gain. Building permits also fell a bit. Wall Street shrugged, all eyes focusing instead on word today that the Federal Reserve plans on keeping interest rates low, right where they are at one percent for the foreseeable future. And that was enough to prop up the markets after a pretty rocky Monday session. All indices finished the day in the green.

And still to come on NEWSNIGHT, more from the Mid East and what's on the mind of the men and women who are part of the American military effort there? Aaron Brown finds out.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As we told you earlier, up at the border, the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, there has been a fierce fight today between the Pakistani government, the Pakistani Army and the remnants of the Taliban and al Qaeda. However big this fight is, is one part of the story. That it took place at all, that the Pakistanis were willing to wage it, is even more significant.

On the Afghan side of the border is CNN's Ryan Chilcote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. soldiers are hunting for al Qaeda and Taliban on the Afghan side of the border. Pakistani tribesmen volunteering for the fight on their side and Tuesday reports from Pakistani paramilitaries that they've killed two dozen terrorists in a lengthy battle near the border town of Wana.

These are the first signs that the United States and Pakistan are using a new hammer and anvil approach to rooting out terrorists on the border. Before hammer and anvil, the U.S. military says terrorists could escape its troops by heading east into Pakistan. Like in Tora Bora in March, 2002 when Taliban and al Qaeda fighters believed to be led by Osama bin Laden retreated east into Pakistan and out of the reach of U.S. troops.

It is spring on the border now. The snow is melting and the paths that crisscross that border are beginning to open up. The U.S. military believes that if Pakistan keeps up the pressure on Taliban and al Qaeda in the border area those fighters may head west into Afghanistan where the U.S. military says it will be waiting for them.

Ryan Chilcote CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: From Afghanistan back to Iraq. As you may know, U.S. forces are at the beginning stages of a major rotation of troops. The soldiers and airmen and Marines who came in when the battle started a year ago are starting now to rotate home. New regulars and reserves are coming in and they will find a war that's hardly over.

Just today four American Baptist missionaries were killed. Three Iraqi police officers were killed. Iraq remains a dangerous place. It is something soldiers on the front line will tell you every single day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): To oversimplify some, generals want you to think in terms of progress and that is not a lie. Tell me your biggest success, your biggest concern, the thing that would keep you up at night.

MAJ. GEN. RAY ODIERNO, COMMANDER, 4TH INFANTRY DIVISION: First, I think the biggest success is I think we really have taken a chunk out of the counter insurgency. I really think it's low level now. I think they're getting more and more desperate every day.

BROWN: Soldiers want you to think of the dangers. Believe me that is no lie either.

SGT. MAJ. DAVID DAVENPORT, U.S. ARMY: I don't think that they fully understand the extent of the combat operations. The hostilities are not over.

BROWN: Every night across the country, young Americans lead patrols and raids rounding up people, some big fish, lots of small fries, trying to sort out the difference and trying to stay alive.

LT. COL. GARY BISHOP, U.S. ARMY: Oftentimes, we are attacked by the improvised explosive devices, IEDs, mortar attacks, sniper fire, sometimes fire from the shadows.

BROWN: There are thousands of young men and women going home after a year here. One planeload gets a surprise and welcome pat on the back from the commanding general. These men and women have lived the risks of war, major combat and the current dangerous grind.

With luck, they have started building a success story in Iraq, and most of all, they have survived. Their replacements will find a different Iraq than these soldiers found a year ago. What they won't find is an end to the violence.

LT. COL. MARK OLINGER, U.S. ARMY: This war in Iraq, here in Baghdad, is not going to end by the enemy coming out with white flags. It will end when we go five, six seven days straight without an attack on the U.S. coalition or Iraqi security forces.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The thing I worry about is, we still have to work very hard on getting the security piece turned over to the Iraqis. And that's going to be the hard work for the next six to 12 months.

BROWN: That is a hope and a plan, that each day the Americans can step back a fraction and Iraqis can take more of the initiative and assume more of the risk.

But a year from now, the story will not be over. It will be different, as this year is different from last, but it will still be a work in progress, still dangerous, and going home alive will still be the most important chapter of every soldier's story.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Each night on the program, as you know, we show you the names of those Americans who have lost their lives in Iraq. It's almost 600 now. What we don't show you are the names of the wounded. There are simply too many.

A quick story. The other day in Baghdad at the airport, we met an Air Force officer, wounded. He had gotten up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom. On the way back, he was shot by a sniper. He was lucky. He'll be fine. Many thousands more are not so lucky. Their lives have been changed forever. They are alive, but they are different.

Here again, CNN's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is a startling number. Since the start of the war in Iraq, more than 10,400 U.S. troops have been medevaced out of Baghdad and Kuwait to the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany. More than 1,000 have been battle casualties with gunshot wounds, blast injuries. More than 9,000 have been medevaced out for other medical problems and complaints, chest pain, gallstones, sprained ankles, high blood pressure.

COL. RHONDA CORNUM, LANDSTUHL REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: We have a large number of people deployed. And just like any group of 150,000 people, people tend to get sick. And whether they get sick or they get their hernia or they get their colon cancer or they get whatever they get, over time, more people are going to have it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see kidney stones on this CAT scan.

NISSEN: Almost A third of the patients seen at Landstuhl are now being treated and returned to active duty within a few weeks. Most of the remainder are shipped back to military hospitals in the U.S. for further treatment, 60 percent of them to Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C.

COL. JONATHAN JAFFIN, WALTER REED ARMY MEDICAL CENTER: We're the largest Army medical center, have the greatest capability. So we act as the catcher's mitt in a lot of ways for the patients being referred back.

NISSEN: More than 2,800 patients from Operation Iraqi Freedom thus far, including some of the most seriously injures, those with blast wounds, amputees.

JAFFIN: We've seen approximately 65 to 70 major limb amputations here at Walter Reed.

NISSEN: Those patients are the minority in Walter Reed's busiest clinic, physical therapy. Most of the soldiers here have nonbattle injuries caused by vehicle accidents, heavy-lifting, falls.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tuck your chin down to your chest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that makes it hurt.

NISSEN: Major Mark Padgett was directing traffic in Baghdad from atop two crushed vehicles when his perch collapsed.

MAJ. MARK PADGETT, U.S. ARMY RESERVES: I basically fell 4.5 feet to my chest on the ground. And, in the process, I wrenched my hip and back in different directions.

NISSEN: He's in his third month of therapy for spinal and neurological damage, but may still need surgery.

PADGETT: The surgery I require will require them going through the front of my chest, the ribs, moving organs to get to it.

NISSEN: He says, the longer troops, especially older Reservists, stay boots on the ground in Iraq, the more will be medevaced out.

PADGETT: You get people that have everything from diabetes to high blood pressure and everything else that they bring with them. And you just can't get the treatment that you need in theater.

NISSEN: Combat medics and field hospitals don't have the supplies, equipment or personnel to do physical therapy, treat chronic diseases or even disorders such as leishmaniasis, a parasitic disease that has sent more than 350 soldiers to Walter Reed for treatment with skin lesions, nor can medical personnel in country effectively treat one in 10, about 1,000 so for, medevaced out of Iraq for psychological, psychiatric conditions.

JAFFIN: We've seen personality disorders, adjustment disorders, post-traumatic distress orders, so we've seen a wide range of psychiatric problems.

NISSEN: The most troubled, the most damaged face years, even lifetimes of recovery. But the prognosis for most Operation Iraqi Freedom patients is more promising, say their doctors.

JAFFIN: Just as any city would have a group of people who were in car accidents and got ill and had heart attacks and things like that, most of those people go back to their normal lives, and that's our hope and goal for these soldiers as well.

NISSEN: With effort, over time.

Beth Nissen, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's critical for the Americans to find Sunni leaders, moderate Sunni Muslims, to take leadership roles.

The Sunnis were favored in the Saddam era, but they are a minority to the Shias now. And that's why they are so angry and so fearful and so dangerous. So the Americans believe they have found a smart and charismatic Sunni moderate in the north. And when asked what's the best thing they can do to help him out, the answer was, keep him alive.

It tells you something about the state of play in Iraq. It is very fragile. And without moderation, unless moderate leaders on the Sunni side and the Kurdish side and the Shia side can be found, the danger of civil war is very real.

Here's CNN's Brent Sadler.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraq is in the throes of a mutating insurgency claim U.S. officials, with al Qaeda support, aimed at fermenting civil war.

HOSHYAR ZEBARI, IRAQI FOREIGN MINISTER: To split the Shia and the Sunnis, to create sectarian strife, ethnic strife, all these efforts have failed so far.

SADLER: But there's a volatile mix of competing politics and religion to cope with.

Around this table, though, there's an attempt to build bridges across the gaping sectarian divide. Religious heavyweights from most of Iraq's moderate groups gather for the very first time, signing a set of principles to calm violence and to avert a possible civil war.

CANON ANDREW WHITE, ANGLICAN CHURCH MEDIATOR: We hope and pray that it will work. It might not. We have no guarantee.

SADLER (on camera): Above all, it is the Shia Muslims, more organized so far and definitely more vocal, that expect to win the lion's share of power through direct elections, which calls for an Islamic state.

(voice-over): If so, the Sunnis, who dominated politics in prewar Iraq, worry the boot could be on the other foot.

WHITE: Having been leaders, they now feel disenfranchised. So how can we ensure that the ruling minority do not become a persecuted minority?

SADLER: Another of the persecuted minorities, the Kurds, have been a law to themselves for over a decade, enjoying life in their Saddam-free zone, and they're in no mood to give it up, demanding greater autonomy in a federal state.

While Iraq's Christians, with the weakest hand to play, worry about life on a knife edge. Leaders must be open and tolerant, they insist, or else.

FATHER YOUSIF TOMA, THEOLOGY PROFESSOR (through translator): Return like Yugoslavia or other states, meaning, if you're different, I have to eliminate you. SADLER: There's more than enough weaponry out here to do just that and no agreements to disband well-trained militias and private armies any time soon.

In the crucially important Shia city of Najaf, the faithful celebrate a holy day with this feast. Many secular Iraqi politicians and coalition officials shudder at the thought that too much religious fervor is being stirred into the political melting pot, adding a potent, possibly destabilizing ingredient to the untried recipe for democracy in Iraq.

Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are, it seems, a million problems in Iraq, from the most dangerous and obvious, fighting off the insurgents, to the most simple but important, making sure the lights are on each day all day.

Among the most important is finding the new Iraqi leadership, the moderates, the Americans hope, who will lead the country from here on out, leadership at every level, from the police chief in a small town to government officials in Baghdad. They are the future. They must be found. And finding them is not easy.

It is one of the tasks the Americans face. It is one of the things that General John Abizaid thinks about most. It is part of a very full plate that he has.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You're comfortable that there are good leaders there who believe in a future of Iraq consistent with what you believe?

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: I am confident there are good people in this country who have emerged and will continue to emerge that will lead Iraq into a future that may not be democratic in the way that we view the United States or a Western European nation, but one that will be participatory in a way that hasn't been seen in this part of the world ever.

BROWN: Tell me if I've got this right. You're able to find plenty of recruits?

ABIZAID: Yes, that's true.

BROWN: There's plenty of enthusiasm to do it. It has been harder to find leadership and to develop an appropriate and responsible chain of command.

ABIZAID: I wouldn't say it's been harder to find it. But it has taken a while to develop it.

When you start from zero, like we did, you have to start at the bottom. And you develop the units. You train the units. And then you start to try to develop an effective chain of command that will eventually go all the way up to the top levels of the Iraqi government. We still have yet to form a Ministry of Defense.

And so the building of these chains of command that connect to reliable and capable Iraqi institutions will take some time. It's not to be said, however, that Iraqi forces are unreliable. They have been very reliable and very capable in many instances. And we have developed forces geographically based on where we arrived first, where we had the greatest amount of cooperation, so you'll see in the south and in the north, for example, that the security institutions are fairly mature and fairly capable.

And in the center and in the west, it's still a long way to go. And then we've also made a few mistakes along the way, where we've empowered people that weren't reliable, that weren't capable and that weren't good leaders, and we had to remove them. So this whole process of building leadership is really more important than building soldiers.

BROWN: Are the Americans the right people to do that?

ABIZAID: Well, I would say it's not only the Americans that are the right people to do it. It's the Iraqis. It's the Jordanians. It's whoever else would think it appropriate to participate in the process.

And I think it is appropriate, though, to provide our experience about civil control of the military, about responsible behavior of the military forces, about serving the people, instead of subverting the people. And this is a very important task that will take a long time to achieve, but it's one that can be done by Americans and by other regional partners and by other nations.

BROWN: When you say a long time, can you put a general sense on that?

ABIZAID: Well, I don't think it would be fair to say that you are going to change the culture overnight. I think that the cultural change will take years. But that doesn't mean that you have to have 150,000 coalition forces here to impose that cultural change.

The cultural change can take place over time, as Iraqi security capacity increases, you continue to have the mentoring and a role of partnership that is very, very important. And I think we probably are going from what I would call a period of perceived occupation -- and I say perceived, because that's how it's perceived in much of the Arab world and in many places here in Iraq -- to one of partnership.

And the partnership is so vital to us to be able to change the culture, because it means that you have a relationship as equals and as people that are willing to learn from one another.

BROWN: I'm almost certain you said to me -- I know someone has more than once -- that sometimes you think you believe more in them than they believe in them. ABIZAID: Well, sometimes, I think that they haven't been willing to step up and be responsible to the degree that they need to be responsible for their own future.

And it's absolutely essential that, if they're going to succeed, that they have to show some responsibility. Will that happen as we move towards the 30th of June? I think the answer is yes. I think there are more people that want to make this thing work than want to make it fail.

Ultimately, the Iraqis do have to do it. Ultimately, this is all about Iraq. And it's about Iraqis building a new country and moving in a direction that's really unchartered territory for this part of the world. And the question that we should ask ourselves is whether or not we trust them to do it. And the answer has to be, of course, we trust them to do it. Why would we have expended so much treasure and so much blood if we didn't believe they can do it?

We've got to believe in Iraq, and we've got to take chances that they will move forward in a way that is good for their own country. We can't maintain control forever, nor should we.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tomorrow, here in Islamabad, we'll meet with Secretary of State Powell. Our interview most certainly will deal with the terrorist attack in Spain and the implications of the Spanish election on Iraq and on the war on terror.

But, over time, in many respects, the biggest issue facing the war on terror may be right here in Pakistan. Does Pakistan continue to be on the side of moderation or does it drift, as many people here in the country would prefer, towards Islamic fundamentalism, extremism? That is unthinkable in the American view, but it is not impossible. And it's part of our reporting tomorrow.

That's our report from tonight in Islamabad. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com





Highway Shootings>


Aired March 16, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening from Islamabad. Behind us the center of the Pakistani government and it is a government with plenty to think about tonight.
Not far from here, at least in miles, 180 miles or so, there is an area of Pakistan that is in many respects centuries away. It is tribal, feudal, at least to the central government virtually lawless and it is there that Osama bin Laden and the Taliban remnants are believed to be hiding.

Today there has been a fierce fight there between the Pakistani Army and the other side. There have been many casualties, how many we don't know, and we'll have more reporting on that later in the program.

The significance of that is that the Pakistani government of President Musharraf is willing to go into that area and take on the extremists even as his country tries to decide which side in this war on terror it is on. Islamic fundamentalism has a foothold in Pakistan.

We'll have more on that as the week goes on. We'll talk to the president of Pakistan. We'll talk with Secretary of State Powell as well but much of our reporting tonight still has to do with Iraq, which we just left.

We'll take a look at the political problems, the prospects of civil war. We'll take a look at the dangers the Americans still face and, as we learned again today, those dangers are considerable.

And we'll take a look at the cost, not in terms of dollars but in lives changed. Beth Nissen reports tonight on the wounded, all of that from here tonight, a fair amount of the program but there is other news as well and for that we go to Anderson Cooper in New York to begin the whip -- Anderson, good evening.

ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, good evening. Thanks very much, back to you in just a few moments.

The whip begins tonight with the lingering repercussions of Thursday's terror attacks in Spain and the Bush administration's effort to cope, so we start off at the White House with CNN's Suzanne Malveaux, Suzanne a headline.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson, despite the turnover in Spain, President Bush insisting tonight that, yes, the 30-plus other members of the coalition in Iraq are committed to making it work and are there to stay.

COOPER: On to Madrid now the investigation and what's being learned about who done it. CNN's Al Goodman with that for us, Al a headline from you.

AL GOODMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Spanish investigators have identified six Moroccans who put the bombs on the trains. Only one is in custody. The manhunt is on -- Anderson.

COOPER: Well finally, the hunt for a sniper and the name and face of a suspect. This one started unfolding last night, swung into high gear today. CNN's Jonathan Freed with the duty tonight, Jonathan the headline.

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, the naming of a sniper suspect has brought some relief to people here but they're saying that they cannot let themselves relax at least not yet until a suspect is caught.

COOPER: Thanks, Jonathan. Back to all of you shortly.

Also ahead on the program tonight, much more from Aaron in the Mid East. We're going to get the differing perspective on what's happening in Iraq from a soldier at the top of the ladder and some much further down.

Beth Nissen looks at the ever growing number of Americans both injured and sick coming out of Iraq and how they are being treated.

And, Aaron will have more of his interview with the top general in the region, John Abizaid. Tonight the search for new leaders for Iraq. All that to come in the hour ahead.

We begin with what the pundit George Will today called the most efficient explosions in the history of terrorism, detonated 74 hours before polls opened in a national election. He writes, "the reverberations toppled a U.S. ally."

There are those, however, who differ with such a dire assessment for reasons philosophical, tactical or political count President Bush among the skeptics tonight.

Again, here's CNN's Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): President Bush refused to connect Spain's worst terrorist attack in history and the election ousting its pro- Bush pro-war prime minister. To do so, the administration believes would give the terrorists a big win.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: These are cold- blooded killers. I mean they've killed innocent people to try to shake our will. That's what they want to do and they'll never shake the will of the United States.

MALVEAUX: Despite losing a key ally in the war with Iraq, Spain's Jose Maria Aznar, the administration is stressing that it still has broad international support.

Meeting in the oval office with the prime minister of the Netherlands, many in his country shaky following the bombings in Spain want their 1,000 troops in Iraq pulled out. Mr. Bush said now is not the time for allies to back down.

BUSH: I would ask them to think about the Iraqi citizens who don't want people to withdraw because they want to be free.

MALVEAUX: But some believe the administration's tough talk on Iraq, now a year after the war in Iraq, is not the best way to keep the coalition together.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: We should stop this talk of unilateralism. We should stop this bravado that has characterized some parts of the administration. Talk about the need for NATO to work together. Get NATO into Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Now the administration is considering a variety of ways to continue to reach out to Spain's new prime minister who called the war and the occupation of Iraq a disaster. One possibility a Bush visit to Spain to meet with the new leader -- Anderson.

COOPER: Suzanne, is there any more talk at the White House about reaching out to the United Nations? Obviously one of the new Spain -- Spanish leader has said that unless the U.N. takes over control after June they will pull out.

MALVEAUX: Well, absolutely, and they're fairly confident they're going to get that U.N. Security Council resolution that will give Spain that international cover to allow their troops to stay. That is something that they'll be working on quite earnestly in the months to come.

COOPER: All right, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House thanks.

In Spain, the investigation has yielded suspects, evidence and connections, connections to other bombings and other plots and allegedly to al Qaeda as well.

From Madrid now here's CNN's Al Goodman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GOODMAN (voice-over): Published reports here say a cell phone found with an unexploded bomb links 30-year-old Jamal Zougam to last Thursday's attacks. Zougam's name has come up before in an anti- terror indictment filed in Spain last September.

The court documents say Zougam was a follower of this man, Imad Eddin Barakat Yarkas now facing terror charges. The investigating magistrate accuses Barakat Yarkas of leading al Qaeda's Madrid cell.

Zougam holds Moroccan citizenship and Moroccan investigators tell CNN Zougam also has been linked to two brothers now held in connection with bombings in Casablanca last May that killed 31 people.

One of those brothers, Abdelaziz Benyaich lived in Madrid with another man David Courtailler. Courtailler had earlier shared an apartment in London with Zacarias Moussaoui who now sits in a U.S. jail accused of being part of the 9/11 conspiracy. Investigators also have connected Courtailler to Richard Reed, the man convicted of trying to blow up an airliner with a bomb hidden in his shoes.

MARC SAGEMAN, UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA: They developed this militant and violent view of Islam, interpretation of Islam, which of course made them susceptible to joining al Qaeda.

GOODMAN: At least six men, three Moroccans, two Indians and an Algerian are being held in connection to the Madrid bombings the latest in the northern city of San Sebastian.

Regional law enforcement officials told CNN that police remembered threats made by an Algerian man two months ago that there would be deaths in Atocha. Police didn't give it much credence then but after the bombs at the Atocha train station they went looking for him too.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GOODMAN: Anderson, here is the latest in the investigation, photographs of Jamal Zougam being interrogated by police at the telephone store this in the Wednesday morning edition. It's Wednesday morning here in Madrid, of the largest circulation newspaper "El Pais."

Now this photograph has been out for some hours but this is the first time that this largest circulation newspaper has put a name on it as one of the prime suspects in the Thursday bombings.

I'm at the Atocha train station which is right behind me. It took about half of the fatalities in this bomb attack of the 201 people who have died, Anderson. You can see this shrine that has been put up here in the hours after the bombing and it has just grown and grown and grown, candles, flowers. We have a few onlookers at this hour. It's 4:00 in the morning here in Madrid but these types of shrines are throughout the station -- back to you Anderson.

COOPER: Al, you mentioned a number of the suspects, only really one suspect is in custody at this point. Have arrest warrants been issued? Are they -- you said the manhunt was on. How active is it?

GOODMAN: Well, we can assume it is very active. The government, which had been extremely transparent, that's what they said they were doing right up to the election which, of course, had this upset victory and many say that was due to the bombings and where there's a new Socialist prime minister elect, as you just reported. The government suddenly has gotten very quiet. The conservative government is still in power until there's a new prime minister sworn in and they have suddenly gotten very tight-lipped.

So, we do know from our own source here, a Spanish investigative source, has told CNN that, yes, there are at least six Moroccans who put bombs on those trains and they've been identified and that police are after them but we don't know exactly the details about how they're trying to round them up but we can be sure it is very vigorous.

The whole nation wants to know who did this and why? Many people think that it's because of Spain's support for the U.S.-led war in Iraq and this, of course, is why the Socialist prime minister elect has said he's going to pull back the troops if there's not a U.N. mandate -- Anderson.

COOPER: And it's not clear, am I correct in assuming at this point, whether or not the suspects are still in Spain or if they have already left the country?

GOODMAN: That is unclear. As my report just said, there are six men in custody, three Moroccans, two men from India and the Algerian man who is the latest person we know was arrested in northern Spain.

But of those only one apparently is one of the suspects who actually put bombs on the train and the other five that police have identified through photographs from the surveillance cameras, through talking to survivors, showing photographs around, that is where the manhunt is.

The Moroccan authorities have been here almost from day one helping the Spanish authorities to try to locate these people, so there is international cooperation and the Spanish authorities have said they're getting it from a lot of other countries, including from the United Kingdom. They haven't mentioned publicly the United States but the United States has been working very closely with the Spaniards since the 9/11 attacks -- Anderson.

COOPER: All right. Al Goodman in Madrid thanks very much.

On to Columbus, Ohio now where a mystery is now a manhunt. Twenty-four hours after police named a suspect in a string of shootings that had long stumped them the search to find him continues. The 28-year-old man is a local resident with a history of mental illness. Today his sister pleaded for him to call home as more details about his life emerge.

Here's CNN's Jonathan Freed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREED (voice-over): The day after he became a wanted man, Charles A. McCoy, Jr.'s family begged him to give himself up.

AMY WALTON, MCCOY'S SISTER: Mom and I need you to call us. We will arrange for you to come home. FREED: After ten months in the grip of fear, the people of Columbus, Ohio are learning more and more about the man police believe has been stalking them on the road and shooting at their homes.

DAVID BROWN, NEIGHBOR: The shot, you know, that's who he is. He lives right there.

FREED: Imagine discovering that the suspect is the same man you think you helped out after his car hit a neighborhood street sign a while back.

BRIEN TAYNOR, NEIGHBOR: He just looked like an average Joe. You just never know.

FREED: The Franklin County Sheriff's Office told CNN on Tuesday that the man who grew up nearby and played high school football is now considered suicidal with homicidal tendencies.

There have been 24 shootings, including a deadly one in November, targeting moving cars on or near the Columbus beltway blowing out tires and shattering windshields.

CHIEF DEPUTY TEVE MARTIN, FRANKLIN COUNTY: The investigation conducted has identified McCoy as the suspect in these I-270 cases.

FREED: McCoy is charged with shooting a house in the area and ballistics link that incident to some of the highway sniper shootings. His mother filed a missing person's report. Noteworthy, she says he had a goatee at the time he disappeared.

There is also some community frustration. Court records show that McCoy has a history of DUIs and speeding and that he was pulled over twice since the attacks started but Columbus is not without hope.

BRIAN WORBY, NEIGHBOR: That it will end peacefully without anybody else getting shot.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FREED: Now, Anderson, the local paper here the "Columbus Dispatch" is reporting today that the search for McCoy was kicked off when his father gave police two handguns and then there proved to be a ballistic match -- back to you.

COOPER: All right. Jonathan Freed thanks very much from Columbus.

Ahead on the program tonight we'll look at the political fallout here at home from the attacks in Spain and the war in Iraq.

And later we'll return to Iraq for a look at the situation there through the eyes of the American soldiers on the ground.

And later the man who commands those soldiers, General John Abizaid and his thoughts about the process of looking for new leaders for Iraq. Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

COOPER: A quick look at other news around the world right now starting in southern Gaza, where late this evening Israeli tanks crossed the border and an Israeli helicopter strike killed at least two people and injured seven.

Hours earlier rockets fired from an Israeli helicopter destroyed a house allegedly being used by Islamic jihad activists. Two Palestinians were killed, 13 others wounded, all of this part of stepped up military operations in Gaza following a double suicide bombing over the weekend which killed ten Israelis.

Israeli soldiers said today they prevented a suicide bombing yesterday at a West Bank border crossing. They say this young boy was set up by Palestinian militants who gave him a bag that unknown to him contained a bomb. It was meant to explode as he carried it through the checkpoint. There are conflicting reports of the boy's age. He was either as young as ten or as old as 12.

In northern Russia a powerful explosion at an apartment building early this morning killed at least 24 people, injured more than a dozen. Officials believe natural gas may be the cause. Two vagrants are also being sought for questioning as rescue workers continue their search tonight.

Well, dangers around the world continue to shape politics stateside as they always do. This Friday marks the one year anniversary of the invasion of Iraq and the White House is spending a lot of time this week making the case that the overthrow of Saddam Hussein was essential to making life in the U.S. safer. Mr. Bush's opponents, including John Kerry of course, take a different view.

Rand Beers has a unique perspective. He used to be the senior director for combating terrorism at the National Security Council. He was also President Bush's special assistant for counterterrorism. A year ago this week he resigned and went to work ultimately for Senator Kerry's campaign. He joins us now from Washington.

Rand, thanks for being on the program. In this past year since you have resigned from the White House, any major surprises in the war on terror and the war in Iraq to you?

RAND BEERS, KERRY CAMPAIGN NATIONAL SECURITY AND HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I think that it was a surprise to all of us that we didn't find the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, at least in the chemical and the biological areas.

COOPER: Because you, yourself, have said you believed they were going to be there.

BEERS: I did. I read the various intelligence reports and I thought at the time when I read them that they made sense and so, yes, I was surprised.

COOPER: And in the war in Afghanistan how do you see it going because one of the reasons you said originally that you had left the White House a year ago, I think tomorrow is the anniversary of leaving, was the way that war was being prosecuted not enough money, not enough resources?

BEERS: Well, I still continue to be very much concerned about what's going on there. There's a lot of violence that's going on that was starting to show up at the time that I submitted my resignation and I think that while the administration has made some additional efforts and provided some additional money we still haven't built an adequate security force there.

We still haven't dealt with the warlords. We still have problems with respect to the whole issue of how to build a stable government in Afghanistan and we still are neglecting doing anything serious about the opium poppy crop, which is a $1 billion slush fund for corruption and violence.

So, I think that this is a test that requires even more attention. I'm glad that the administration is moving in that direction but I think there's definitely still more to be done.

COOPER: The attack in Spain, the aftermath, the change in the government, can you look at that in any way and not see it as a victory for terrorists?

BEERS: Well, it certainly is a very troubled situation. We are not absolutely sure yet who did it, so I think to some degree it's hard to try to speculate without having that information.

COOPER: But you think al Qaeda is not involved, you don't think it's some sort of Islamic extremists?

BEERS: No, no, no. I'm simply saying that we don't know for sure that it was al Qaeda. We don't know for sure that ETA was or was not involved and those kinds of combinations are going to make a difference in the evaluation of how one -- how a government thinks about it. But it does appear that the Spanish people reacted in a way against the government in one way or another failing them and choosing another government.

COOPER: But doesn't -- I mean whether or not it was al Qaeda or an al Qaeda related group or an affinity group or even ETA, the fact that there's this public perception out there that it was in some way linked to al Qaeda and then you have this change in Spanish, change in the fundamental government, again I have to ask I mean that seems to outsiders to me a victory for terrorists.

BEERS: Well, I think that in one way or the other that it is a victory for terrorists, yes.

COOPER: Is al Qaeda stronger today or -- I mean I keep hearing that they're no longer sort of vertically integrated that they are more sort of horizontally integrated. People compare it to sort of multi-headed hydras. You cut off one head. Other heads pop up. As you see it, is it as strong today, stronger, how do you quantify it?

BEERS: Well, I think that you've alluded to how I would describe it and George Tenet, the CIA director has described this process. Al Qaeda is one organization. It has a number of affiliates and another group of associated movements and it has grown, I think, and remains a very dangerous movement in the world at large and I don't think we can take as much solace as the administration sometimes claims for having eliminated two-thirds of the known leadership.

We certainly don't know what we don't know and we do know that al Qaeda has been pretty good at replacing people who have been removed and we do know that other movements, which we haven't know all that much about are taking over different roles and missions in this global jihadist movement.

COOPER: Any regrets about leaving the White House, any regrets about what you've been doing the last year?

BEERS: Absolutely not. I sleep better trying to help John Kerry become president and while there are obvious strains on the campaign from the time and the effort that's necessary, I'm really happy to be doing what I'm doing.

COOPER: Well, you've had a fascinating career and I appreciate you being on the program tonight. Thanks, Rand Beers.

BEERS: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

COOPER: Tomorrow the administration's Secretary of State Colin Powell sits down for an exclusive interview with Aaron Brown. Again that is tomorrow night on this program along with all the other developments from Iraq and the war on terror.

Money matters now starting with what a prosecutor says Dennis Kozlowski did with his company's money. In closing arguments of his trial today, the prosecution painted the former Tyco CEO as a corporate looter who used Tyco as his personal piggybank to the tune of $600 million.

Referring to Mr. Kozlowski and his co-defendant, Manhattan Assistant D.A. Ann Donnelly (ph) said, "They are not here because they blurred the line between themselves and Tyco. They are here" she said "because they obliterated it." Jurors are expected to get the case sometime next week.

The Commerce Department says housing starts fell four percent last month. The experts were anticipating a slight gain. Building permits also fell a bit. Wall Street shrugged, all eyes focusing instead on word today that the Federal Reserve plans on keeping interest rates low, right where they are at one percent for the foreseeable future. And that was enough to prop up the markets after a pretty rocky Monday session. All indices finished the day in the green.

And still to come on NEWSNIGHT, more from the Mid East and what's on the mind of the men and women who are part of the American military effort there? Aaron Brown finds out.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: As we told you earlier, up at the border, the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan, there has been a fierce fight today between the Pakistani government, the Pakistani Army and the remnants of the Taliban and al Qaeda. However big this fight is, is one part of the story. That it took place at all, that the Pakistanis were willing to wage it, is even more significant.

On the Afghan side of the border is CNN's Ryan Chilcote.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RYAN CHILCOTE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. soldiers are hunting for al Qaeda and Taliban on the Afghan side of the border. Pakistani tribesmen volunteering for the fight on their side and Tuesday reports from Pakistani paramilitaries that they've killed two dozen terrorists in a lengthy battle near the border town of Wana.

These are the first signs that the United States and Pakistan are using a new hammer and anvil approach to rooting out terrorists on the border. Before hammer and anvil, the U.S. military says terrorists could escape its troops by heading east into Pakistan. Like in Tora Bora in March, 2002 when Taliban and al Qaeda fighters believed to be led by Osama bin Laden retreated east into Pakistan and out of the reach of U.S. troops.

It is spring on the border now. The snow is melting and the paths that crisscross that border are beginning to open up. The U.S. military believes that if Pakistan keeps up the pressure on Taliban and al Qaeda in the border area those fighters may head west into Afghanistan where the U.S. military says it will be waiting for them.

Ryan Chilcote CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: From Afghanistan back to Iraq. As you may know, U.S. forces are at the beginning stages of a major rotation of troops. The soldiers and airmen and Marines who came in when the battle started a year ago are starting now to rotate home. New regulars and reserves are coming in and they will find a war that's hardly over.

Just today four American Baptist missionaries were killed. Three Iraqi police officers were killed. Iraq remains a dangerous place. It is something soldiers on the front line will tell you every single day.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): To oversimplify some, generals want you to think in terms of progress and that is not a lie. Tell me your biggest success, your biggest concern, the thing that would keep you up at night.

MAJ. GEN. RAY ODIERNO, COMMANDER, 4TH INFANTRY DIVISION: First, I think the biggest success is I think we really have taken a chunk out of the counter insurgency. I really think it's low level now. I think they're getting more and more desperate every day.

BROWN: Soldiers want you to think of the dangers. Believe me that is no lie either.

SGT. MAJ. DAVID DAVENPORT, U.S. ARMY: I don't think that they fully understand the extent of the combat operations. The hostilities are not over.

BROWN: Every night across the country, young Americans lead patrols and raids rounding up people, some big fish, lots of small fries, trying to sort out the difference and trying to stay alive.

LT. COL. GARY BISHOP, U.S. ARMY: Oftentimes, we are attacked by the improvised explosive devices, IEDs, mortar attacks, sniper fire, sometimes fire from the shadows.

BROWN: There are thousands of young men and women going home after a year here. One planeload gets a surprise and welcome pat on the back from the commanding general. These men and women have lived the risks of war, major combat and the current dangerous grind.

With luck, they have started building a success story in Iraq, and most of all, they have survived. Their replacements will find a different Iraq than these soldiers found a year ago. What they won't find is an end to the violence.

LT. COL. MARK OLINGER, U.S. ARMY: This war in Iraq, here in Baghdad, is not going to end by the enemy coming out with white flags. It will end when we go five, six seven days straight without an attack on the U.S. coalition or Iraqi security forces.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The thing I worry about is, we still have to work very hard on getting the security piece turned over to the Iraqis. And that's going to be the hard work for the next six to 12 months.

BROWN: That is a hope and a plan, that each day the Americans can step back a fraction and Iraqis can take more of the initiative and assume more of the risk.

But a year from now, the story will not be over. It will be different, as this year is different from last, but it will still be a work in progress, still dangerous, and going home alive will still be the most important chapter of every soldier's story.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Each night on the program, as you know, we show you the names of those Americans who have lost their lives in Iraq. It's almost 600 now. What we don't show you are the names of the wounded. There are simply too many.

A quick story. The other day in Baghdad at the airport, we met an Air Force officer, wounded. He had gotten up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom. On the way back, he was shot by a sniper. He was lucky. He'll be fine. Many thousands more are not so lucky. Their lives have been changed forever. They are alive, but they are different.

Here again, CNN's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is a startling number. Since the start of the war in Iraq, more than 10,400 U.S. troops have been medevaced out of Baghdad and Kuwait to the Landstuhl Regional Medical Center in Germany. More than 1,000 have been battle casualties with gunshot wounds, blast injuries. More than 9,000 have been medevaced out for other medical problems and complaints, chest pain, gallstones, sprained ankles, high blood pressure.

COL. RHONDA CORNUM, LANDSTUHL REGIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: We have a large number of people deployed. And just like any group of 150,000 people, people tend to get sick. And whether they get sick or they get their hernia or they get their colon cancer or they get whatever they get, over time, more people are going to have it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We see kidney stones on this CAT scan.

NISSEN: Almost A third of the patients seen at Landstuhl are now being treated and returned to active duty within a few weeks. Most of the remainder are shipped back to military hospitals in the U.S. for further treatment, 60 percent of them to Walter Reed Army Medical Center in Washington, D.C.

COL. JONATHAN JAFFIN, WALTER REED ARMY MEDICAL CENTER: We're the largest Army medical center, have the greatest capability. So we act as the catcher's mitt in a lot of ways for the patients being referred back.

NISSEN: More than 2,800 patients from Operation Iraqi Freedom thus far, including some of the most seriously injures, those with blast wounds, amputees.

JAFFIN: We've seen approximately 65 to 70 major limb amputations here at Walter Reed.

NISSEN: Those patients are the minority in Walter Reed's busiest clinic, physical therapy. Most of the soldiers here have nonbattle injuries caused by vehicle accidents, heavy-lifting, falls.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tuck your chin down to your chest.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, that makes it hurt.

NISSEN: Major Mark Padgett was directing traffic in Baghdad from atop two crushed vehicles when his perch collapsed.

MAJ. MARK PADGETT, U.S. ARMY RESERVES: I basically fell 4.5 feet to my chest on the ground. And, in the process, I wrenched my hip and back in different directions.

NISSEN: He's in his third month of therapy for spinal and neurological damage, but may still need surgery.

PADGETT: The surgery I require will require them going through the front of my chest, the ribs, moving organs to get to it.

NISSEN: He says, the longer troops, especially older Reservists, stay boots on the ground in Iraq, the more will be medevaced out.

PADGETT: You get people that have everything from diabetes to high blood pressure and everything else that they bring with them. And you just can't get the treatment that you need in theater.

NISSEN: Combat medics and field hospitals don't have the supplies, equipment or personnel to do physical therapy, treat chronic diseases or even disorders such as leishmaniasis, a parasitic disease that has sent more than 350 soldiers to Walter Reed for treatment with skin lesions, nor can medical personnel in country effectively treat one in 10, about 1,000 so for, medevaced out of Iraq for psychological, psychiatric conditions.

JAFFIN: We've seen personality disorders, adjustment disorders, post-traumatic distress orders, so we've seen a wide range of psychiatric problems.

NISSEN: The most troubled, the most damaged face years, even lifetimes of recovery. But the prognosis for most Operation Iraqi Freedom patients is more promising, say their doctors.

JAFFIN: Just as any city would have a group of people who were in car accidents and got ill and had heart attacks and things like that, most of those people go back to their normal lives, and that's our hope and goal for these soldiers as well.

NISSEN: With effort, over time.

Beth Nissen, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: It's critical for the Americans to find Sunni leaders, moderate Sunni Muslims, to take leadership roles.

The Sunnis were favored in the Saddam era, but they are a minority to the Shias now. And that's why they are so angry and so fearful and so dangerous. So the Americans believe they have found a smart and charismatic Sunni moderate in the north. And when asked what's the best thing they can do to help him out, the answer was, keep him alive.

It tells you something about the state of play in Iraq. It is very fragile. And without moderation, unless moderate leaders on the Sunni side and the Kurdish side and the Shia side can be found, the danger of civil war is very real.

Here's CNN's Brent Sadler.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Iraq is in the throes of a mutating insurgency claim U.S. officials, with al Qaeda support, aimed at fermenting civil war.

HOSHYAR ZEBARI, IRAQI FOREIGN MINISTER: To split the Shia and the Sunnis, to create sectarian strife, ethnic strife, all these efforts have failed so far.

SADLER: But there's a volatile mix of competing politics and religion to cope with.

Around this table, though, there's an attempt to build bridges across the gaping sectarian divide. Religious heavyweights from most of Iraq's moderate groups gather for the very first time, signing a set of principles to calm violence and to avert a possible civil war.

CANON ANDREW WHITE, ANGLICAN CHURCH MEDIATOR: We hope and pray that it will work. It might not. We have no guarantee.

SADLER (on camera): Above all, it is the Shia Muslims, more organized so far and definitely more vocal, that expect to win the lion's share of power through direct elections, which calls for an Islamic state.

(voice-over): If so, the Sunnis, who dominated politics in prewar Iraq, worry the boot could be on the other foot.

WHITE: Having been leaders, they now feel disenfranchised. So how can we ensure that the ruling minority do not become a persecuted minority?

SADLER: Another of the persecuted minorities, the Kurds, have been a law to themselves for over a decade, enjoying life in their Saddam-free zone, and they're in no mood to give it up, demanding greater autonomy in a federal state.

While Iraq's Christians, with the weakest hand to play, worry about life on a knife edge. Leaders must be open and tolerant, they insist, or else.

FATHER YOUSIF TOMA, THEOLOGY PROFESSOR (through translator): Return like Yugoslavia or other states, meaning, if you're different, I have to eliminate you. SADLER: There's more than enough weaponry out here to do just that and no agreements to disband well-trained militias and private armies any time soon.

In the crucially important Shia city of Najaf, the faithful celebrate a holy day with this feast. Many secular Iraqi politicians and coalition officials shudder at the thought that too much religious fervor is being stirred into the political melting pot, adding a potent, possibly destabilizing ingredient to the untried recipe for democracy in Iraq.

Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: There are, it seems, a million problems in Iraq, from the most dangerous and obvious, fighting off the insurgents, to the most simple but important, making sure the lights are on each day all day.

Among the most important is finding the new Iraqi leadership, the moderates, the Americans hope, who will lead the country from here on out, leadership at every level, from the police chief in a small town to government officials in Baghdad. They are the future. They must be found. And finding them is not easy.

It is one of the tasks the Americans face. It is one of the things that General John Abizaid thinks about most. It is part of a very full plate that he has.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: You're comfortable that there are good leaders there who believe in a future of Iraq consistent with what you believe?

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, CMDR., U.S. CENTRAL COMMAND: I am confident there are good people in this country who have emerged and will continue to emerge that will lead Iraq into a future that may not be democratic in the way that we view the United States or a Western European nation, but one that will be participatory in a way that hasn't been seen in this part of the world ever.

BROWN: Tell me if I've got this right. You're able to find plenty of recruits?

ABIZAID: Yes, that's true.

BROWN: There's plenty of enthusiasm to do it. It has been harder to find leadership and to develop an appropriate and responsible chain of command.

ABIZAID: I wouldn't say it's been harder to find it. But it has taken a while to develop it.

When you start from zero, like we did, you have to start at the bottom. And you develop the units. You train the units. And then you start to try to develop an effective chain of command that will eventually go all the way up to the top levels of the Iraqi government. We still have yet to form a Ministry of Defense.

And so the building of these chains of command that connect to reliable and capable Iraqi institutions will take some time. It's not to be said, however, that Iraqi forces are unreliable. They have been very reliable and very capable in many instances. And we have developed forces geographically based on where we arrived first, where we had the greatest amount of cooperation, so you'll see in the south and in the north, for example, that the security institutions are fairly mature and fairly capable.

And in the center and in the west, it's still a long way to go. And then we've also made a few mistakes along the way, where we've empowered people that weren't reliable, that weren't capable and that weren't good leaders, and we had to remove them. So this whole process of building leadership is really more important than building soldiers.

BROWN: Are the Americans the right people to do that?

ABIZAID: Well, I would say it's not only the Americans that are the right people to do it. It's the Iraqis. It's the Jordanians. It's whoever else would think it appropriate to participate in the process.

And I think it is appropriate, though, to provide our experience about civil control of the military, about responsible behavior of the military forces, about serving the people, instead of subverting the people. And this is a very important task that will take a long time to achieve, but it's one that can be done by Americans and by other regional partners and by other nations.

BROWN: When you say a long time, can you put a general sense on that?

ABIZAID: Well, I don't think it would be fair to say that you are going to change the culture overnight. I think that the cultural change will take years. But that doesn't mean that you have to have 150,000 coalition forces here to impose that cultural change.

The cultural change can take place over time, as Iraqi security capacity increases, you continue to have the mentoring and a role of partnership that is very, very important. And I think we probably are going from what I would call a period of perceived occupation -- and I say perceived, because that's how it's perceived in much of the Arab world and in many places here in Iraq -- to one of partnership.

And the partnership is so vital to us to be able to change the culture, because it means that you have a relationship as equals and as people that are willing to learn from one another.

BROWN: I'm almost certain you said to me -- I know someone has more than once -- that sometimes you think you believe more in them than they believe in them. ABIZAID: Well, sometimes, I think that they haven't been willing to step up and be responsible to the degree that they need to be responsible for their own future.

And it's absolutely essential that, if they're going to succeed, that they have to show some responsibility. Will that happen as we move towards the 30th of June? I think the answer is yes. I think there are more people that want to make this thing work than want to make it fail.

Ultimately, the Iraqis do have to do it. Ultimately, this is all about Iraq. And it's about Iraqis building a new country and moving in a direction that's really unchartered territory for this part of the world. And the question that we should ask ourselves is whether or not we trust them to do it. And the answer has to be, of course, we trust them to do it. Why would we have expended so much treasure and so much blood if we didn't believe they can do it?

We've got to believe in Iraq, and we've got to take chances that they will move forward in a way that is good for their own country. We can't maintain control forever, nor should we.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Tomorrow, here in Islamabad, we'll meet with Secretary of State Powell. Our interview most certainly will deal with the terrorist attack in Spain and the implications of the Spanish election on Iraq and on the war on terror.

But, over time, in many respects, the biggest issue facing the war on terror may be right here in Pakistan. Does Pakistan continue to be on the side of moderation or does it drift, as many people here in the country would prefer, towards Islamic fundamentalism, extremism? That is unthinkable in the American view, but it is not impossible. And it's part of our reporting tomorrow.

That's our report from tonight in Islamabad. Good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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