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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

30 Americans Die in Iraq; Look Back at Genocide in Rwanda

Aired April 06, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
This is not a good news day. In the span of just four days now, just four days, 30 Americans have died in Iraq in a spasm of violence and attacks that threaten at the very least the plan to hand over day- to-day power to the Iraqis in just three months.

In Fallujah it started last week. It was Sunnis then, a stronghold of Saddam and, in some respects, expected. What happened over the weekend and continued on today is more complicated, not just the Sunnis in the north.

This time it is Shiites as well, maybe a fairly small group of Shiites now, several thousand but clearly it runs the risk of spreading and there are signs of that today.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld acknowledged it may be necessary, underline maybe, to send in more troops and there are no easy answers now. More force solves problems even as it creates others. It is a very messy situation in Iraq tonight that dominates much of the program and begins the whip.

And the whip begins with our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre, Jamie a headline from you.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: And, Aaron, today Defense Secretary Rumsfeld also said there would be some good days and bad days in Iraq and with 12 Marines killed in a fierce firefight near al-Ramadi, it's hard to say this is anything but a bad day.

BROWN: A very bad day.

Baghdad tonight, CNN's Walter Rodgers, Walt a headline from you.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, throughout Iraq, the U.S.-led coalition is facing revolts and resistance and it's not just Ramadi and increasingly the questions being asked here is the American experiment in Iraq turning sour -- Aaron?

BROWN: Walt, thank you.

The deadline for the handover of political power to the Iraqis themselves, as we said, less than three months away now. Bob Franken has been working that part of the story for us, so Bob a headline. BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that date is June 30 and President Bush insisted again he's going to meet that target and his probable opponent for the presidential campaign worries out loud whether that is a political target -- Aaron.

BROWN: Bob, thank you.

And finally, a look back at one of the world's dismal failures, genocide in Rwanda, a decade ago, CNN's Beth Nissen -- Beth.

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is one of the most unambiguous cases of genocide since the Holocaust. Eight hundred thousand people killed in 100 days. It happened in the small African nation of Rwanda. The killing started ten years ago.

BROWN: Nissen, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up in the hour ahead, we'll also see how those people the government thinks may be security risks should not be allowed to fly are planning to fight back.

We'll take a look at how the world's largest retailer is mounting a fight of its own over whether it can build an enormous retail shopping center in the heart of Southern California.

And, of course, the rooster is with us again tonight. It won't be hard to predict what's going to be on the front pages tomorrow but the headlines always tell the tale and we will get to them as well, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin in Iraq. It was a bitter, bloody day there today with much still to be known, one of the bloodiest days in Iraq since the major combat ended a year ago May. The violence itself may have been what the American military was expecting but there is no way you can plan for what has broken out over the last several days.

As many as a dozen Marines were killed in the western Iraqi city of Ramadi today, a city in the so-called Sunni Triangle where Saddam still has many followers. The attacks took place, according to Pentagon sources, near the governor's palace in that city.

In Fallujah there was heavy fighting as American Marines continued their assault in response to the killing and mutilation of four American civilians in that city last week.

In the south, in the Iraqi cities of Nasiriyah and Karbala, more heavy fighting there, Americans and others involved and, in Baghdad itself, there were firefights in the Shiite enclave of Sadr City that carried on well into the night.

The death toll so far for today at least 13 American soldiers dead, another Ukrainian soldier who was a member of the coalition died as well. At least 70 Iraqis died.

Since this new fighting began more than three days ago, more than 30 coalition troops have been killed, an unknown number of Iraqis, insurgents and innocents, have died as well. That is the overview on a difficult day.

For the detail, we begin with our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre who has been working the Ramadi attack since late this afternoon, Jamie good evening again.

MCINTYRE: Well, good evening, Aaron.

You know Pentagon officials are often chiding us to keep these stories in perspective and don't forget the positive things that are going on but it's hard to put a good face on what happened today in Iraq, particularly in Ramadi where Pentagon sources say as many as 12 Marines were killed in a fierce firefight that took place over several hours as anti-U.S. insurgents apparently attacked the Marine position and then took over some buildings in what we're told is the governor's compound.

These are buildings that were under Iraqi government and coalition control. We're told tonight that it's not clear that all the fighting is over but apparently the Marines have retaken the buildings and inflicted heavy casualties on the anti-U.S. forces.

It's still not clear who the Pentagon or who the military was facing here. There was some thought it might be Shia inspired violence from the cleric al-Sadr who has been inciting violence against the U.S.

But Pentagon sources say they believe that because this is in the Sunni Triangle in an area where there's been a lot of anti-U.S. sentiment they believe they're dealing with former regime elements, Ba'athist sympathizers, much like those in Fallujah where the Marines have been operating a major offensive trying to crack down and pacify that city.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today conceded that his military planners are looking at options for more troops for Iraq but he said at this point they have not made any change in their plans. He did say whatever the commanders say they need they will get and he did also say they could make a request at any time -- Aaron.

BROWN: How comfortable are we that the number 12 is going to be the number of American dead from this Ramadi attack?

MCINTYRE: Well, Pentagon officials have cautioned us from the beginning that these were the initial reports they were getting back here and clearly the number could rise, although the fact that the estimate, about 12, has stayed constant over the last five hours or so probably means it's not going to climb much higher from this incident.

I'm just reminded though back in 1993 when we first heard about the Rangers being attacked in Somalia, we were also told at that time 12 people were killed. Eventually that death toll went to 18.

BROWN: And just one other question on this, is there -- do you detect in the Pentagon itself a noticeable change over the last, I guess the last week? I mean this violence in the Sunni Triangle has been going on but the spread of it into the Shia areas is something, something else again.

MCINTYRE: Well, first of all, some of the very senior officials have conceded that they find that violence in the Shia area much more troublesome. They felt that the problem in Fallujah is something that they could deal with applying enough force, enough combat force they could essentially pacify that city and they're much more concerned about that.

And I think the mood has changed slightly, not that there's any less resolve but I think they realize that they've got a real public relations and perception problem here as these deaths continue to mount and there's a resolve that they need to confront that and deal with that as well.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We would suggest that it's probably more than just a public relations problem. They've got families who are wondering what's going on there as well. Thank you.

That's the Ramadi part of the story and the Pentagon's part of the story. There was, as we told you at the beginning, fighting in large pockets in various parts of the country, in Baghdad and to the south as well.

CNN's Walter Rodgers worked those parts of the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RODGERS (voice-over): U.S. Marines are outside this city but militants visibly roam Fallujah streets and the battle for the hearts and minds of Iraqis is still in doubt.

"We're not the terrorists as Bush said" this spider declared. "The terrorist is the one attacking me in my country in my home."

U.S. Marines have now ringed Fallujah trying to reestablish control after a mob murdered four American civilians here a week ago.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: There is no question we have control of the country.

RODGERS: That American claim of control conflicts sharply, however, with another coalition source speaking on the condition of anonymity who told CNN much of the Holy City of al-Najaf, this mosque, police stations and government buildings are controlled by the private army of the fiery Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. And American tanks have been on Baghdad streets since Sunday fighting off an armed Shiite revolt, disillusioning for U.S. soldiers.

CAPT. JEFF MERCIOWSKI, U.S. ARMY: We've done numerous community improvement projects in this area and right now we're trying to find out why we were being shot at last night.

RODGERS: Iraqis have questions too like why have about 100 Iraqis been killed since Sunday? This Iraqi asked "why did U.S. soldiers do this to us? If I had a weapon I would fight them."

A spokesman for Muqtada al-Sadr issued an ultimatum calling on Americans to get out of Iraqi cities or the uprising will continue.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RODGERS: Another Muslim cleric summed it up this way. He said the Americans face a big challenge here trying to convince us their civilization is right -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's go to Ramadi because you've been working from your post there. What's going on there? Do you have any update on that fight?

RODGERS: We know the Marines are having a very stiff fight. They're fighting street to street. It was night fighting, which is, of course, the most difficult and for the Marines they were fighting in unfamiliar territory.

They were probably caught off guard by this but because Ramadi is indeed territory assigned to the Marines they were thrown into the breach very quickly and had to take on upwards of 100 Iraqi Sunni fighters.

It was a very stiff fight. As Jamie McIntyre pointed out, at least 12 U.S. Marines were killed, more than 20 injured. We have no word yet as to whether the buildings which were seized have even been recaptured -- Aaron.

BROWN: Walter thank you, Walter Rodgers up early in Baghdad.

The military has an axiom about the battlefield. The first reports are usually wrong and often exaggerated but there is little doubt tonight that the past three days in Iraq have been exceedingly difficult and the five before that were not walk in the park either.

Here to help us get a handle on some of this is someone we've talked to a lot on the program over the months since the war began. Rod Nordland is the Bureau Chief in Baghdad for "Newsweek" magazine. He's with us this morning or tonight. It's good to see you again. Is this a spasm of violence or is it a sea change do you think?

ROD NORDLAND, BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF "NEWSWEEK": Well, it's a little early to be sure. In some ways, it's not quite as bad as it looks. I mean Muqtada Sadr has relatively few fighters. Most of the incidents in various cities around Iraq were probably or were for the most part followers that he bussed down there for those occasions. They weren't indigenous uprisings.

As far as Fallujah and Ramadi are concerned those places have always been tough nuts. They've always been very anti-American, solidly anti-American, and once you put troops in there, there's liable to be problems, unfortunately, bigger problems than they expected but they're localized situations. They're not typical of all of Iraq.

The real danger is that we'll hit back so hard in those places or in the effort to get Muqtada Sadr that that will create a backlash that maybe will lead to an uprising and we have this danger of a kind of crossover between the Sunnis and the Shia, the radical Shia that is something completely new to the scene here and very worrisome.

BROWN: Is there -- I saw a report that Mr. Sadr is trying to align himself with the Ayatollah al-Sistani, at least in words coming out of his office and his spokesman. Is that realistic that that will happen and is that dangerous to the Americans or positive to the Americans if it happens?

NORDLAND: Well, there were initial reports that Sistani actually gave some limited measure of support to Muqtada Sadr. That appears to have been wrong. What Sistani did was call for calm and call for negotiations. But what Sadr has done yesterday is moved his -- moved his -- well moved himself from Kufa outside of Najaf to his own office inside Najaf, which is actually one block away from Sistani's office.

So, if they go in with heavy forces to try to arrest Sadr, which they say they're going to do, there's a very real danger that they can involve Sistani's people as well and that would be really disastrous because Sistani is someone that all Shia look up to in Iraq.

BROWN: Just to put a button on that it is hard to imagine that the Americans can accomplish what we want to accomplish there without the assistance of Sistani.

NORDLAND: Well that's right. In fact, it's hard to accomplish anything in this country at this point without the assistance of Sistani but they're in a very difficult situation. The more time goes by the more some radical elements are rallying to Muqtada Sadr and the more he looks the hero.

On the other hand, if they do try to take him it's clear that's going to involve a great loss of life and with the possibility of alienating the Shia even further. It's a very difficult situation they're in at the time that they're also very much engaged on another front with the Sunnis in Fallujah and Ramadi.

BROWN: Anybody suggesting, anybody in the CPA suggesting it was a mistake to close down Sadr's newspaper?

NORDLAND: Not in the CPA. I think they're kind of circling the wagons on that issue but in the governing council quite a few people are very upset. They say they advised the Americans not to go after Sadr at this point.

They closed -- this all began when they closed his newspaper about a week ago and even at that point they were worrying that this is the wrong time to do it especially with Arbayeen holidays coming up, which is the 40th day after these bombings in Karbala and Baghdad that killed so many Shia.

There are going to be literally millions of people in the streets in Najaf and Karbala, especially in Karbala in just a few days and if they end up causing casualties among his people that will bring the whole cycle of funerals and mourners and more people in the street, so it's a very explosive situation.

BROWN: It just sounds like the anxiety level, whatever the degree of the violence and however widespread it is, that the anxiety level as we approach this holiday and the rest must be incredible there right now.

NORDLAND: Yes and there are other holidays coming up as well. April 9th is the anniversary of the fall of Baghdad. We can expect some sort of display of something from the opposition. They take their holidays very seriously. Today, I believe, is the anniversary of the founding of the Ba'ath Party as well, so all tolled it's going to be a very busy week ahead.

BROWN: Rod, thank you, Rod Nordland the Bureau Chief for "Newsweek" magazine there.

We have more on Iraq as we go tonight. The countdown to July 1 or June 30, the day Iraq is supposed to become a sovereign nation ruled by Iraqis. I'll get to you. Hang on.

And ten years later, the emotional wounds of the massacre in Rwanda still fresh and the questions for all of us and I do mean all of us still remain, a break first.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Twelve weeks is not a very long time. For those of us who remember high school, it's the time between Spring Break and graduation more or less. In 12 weeks, the Bush administration plan is that Iraq will once again become a sovereign nation, albeit without control over its own security forces, a pretty important aspect of sovereignty. But even as the violence escalates the administration remains firm. June 30 is still the date.

Here's CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will pass sovereignty on June 30. We'll stay the course in Iraq.

FRANKEN (voice-over): The June 30 date was the result of painstaking negotiations with the Iraqi Governing Council, which insisted on a firm deadline but time is growing short.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: What's the plan? Who is going to be in charge after that? Who is going to be the referee in effect?

FRANKEN: The president's man in Baghdad says that the plan is a work in progress. BREMER: We are determining the size and shape of the interim government. It will be in place well before June 30 and we will pass sovereignty to that interim government on June 30 as scheduled.

FRANKEN: And, as the U.S. defense secretary hastens to add this sovereignty definitely has its limits.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Our security forces, coalition forces are going to stay right there and do what they have to do.

FRANKEN: The timing is certainly politically sensitive.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a mistake to set an arbitrary date and I hope that date has nothing to do with the election here in the United States.

FRANKEN: Actually, there is support for a date certain from a high-ranking member of the Clinton administration.

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: By setting a date it at least forces the parties to think very constructively how they can put a governing authority together at the short term before they have elections by January of next year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: A date but will June 30 remain the date? Is it cast in concrete or is the situation in Iraq too unpredictably violent, too fluid for the concrete to really be set -- Aaron?

BROWN: And what is the answer to that? Is it set in concrete or is there a little wiggle room there if the administration wants it?

FRANKEN: There's wiggle room, discernible wiggle room. Anybody who makes this comment in effect says right now we are planning to go forward with June 30 but the fact is, is that if June 30 comes and there isn't this handover it's going to be a big embarrassment for the Bush administration and in this political year that is a real incentive to try and meet the deadline.

BROWN: Bob, thank you, Bob Franken in Washington tonight.

This question of the June 30 deadline has been on the edges of the public debate for weeks. In the last week it moved dead center. The two ranking members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee have started raising questions. Others may follow.

Senator John Sununu is a New Hampshire Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and he, for one, believes in the president's time table. We talked with the Senator from Washington earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator, given the situation in Iraq today and, in fact, the situation in Iraq today even as we speak seems to be deteriorating even more. What makes you believe that the June 30 deadline is realistic?

SEN. JOHN SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, the fact is the intensity of the fighting that we're seeing today is in part because of the June 30 deadline. These are groups that want to destabilize the situation. Their goal is to put off the transition because ultimately they are not supportive of the idea of representational government in Iraq.

These aren't participants, the Shiites, who are participating in the governing council activities they're predominately these violent factions that are supported by the Iranians. They consider themselves to be the arm of Hezbollah or Hamas in Iraq and they want to destabilize that June 30 deadline.

That is going to be a tough deadline but it's important that we keep our promise to the Iraqi people to turn over political control of their future on that June 30 date.

BROWN: Who exactly are we turning control over to?

SUNUNU: That's a good question. There are two fundamental questions that need to be answered in the next four weeks for all intents and purposes. One, the structure of the interim governing authority.

That is what the U.N. envoy Brahimi is there to do as we speak. He is working in consultation with the coalition, in consultation with the Iraqis to structure the interim government that will be in place for about seven months, from June 30 until we have elections at the end of next January and during those seven months the interim government is going to prepare for elections, write a budget and, of course, manage the ministries.

The second question that needs to be answered is what the structure of the new embassy is going to be. Who is going to be in charge of course, who the American ambassador is going to be and that person will be very important because they'll have responsibility for a lot of the ongoing reconstruction efforts.

Ambassador Bremer was supposed to be here today to brief the Senate on these two important questions. Obviously, he wasn't able to make that briefing but those are questions that need to be answered.

BROWN: Do you believe that the interim government in Iraq today is seen by the Iraqis, it doesn't matter what the Americans think, is seen by the Iraqis as legitimate?

SUNUNU: I think it's seen by most Iraqis to be what you describe it as, an interim government and, at the same time, while there hasn't emerged a strong consensus leader the transition of political responsibility to the Iraqis is extremely important and I would venture extremely important to the Iraqi people.

BROWN: There is a perception among many people, some in this country, some abroad, some in the British government for example that this June 30 deadline is essentially driven by American political considerations and not facts on the ground. Do you think there's any element of truth in that at all?

SUNUNU: No. I don't think it's driven by political considerations in the sense of partisan politics, presidential campaign politics or anything along those lines. I think it's driven as much by the consideration, the political consideration for its impact on the Iraqi people.

What does it mean if we break our promise to the Iraqi people to move toward a transfer of political power by June 30? What does it mean to the morale of the Iraqi people or the morale of the coalition partners if we allow these insurgents and these attacks that took place over the weekend to derail that June 30 deadline as they were intended to do?

To a certain extent we would be giving into the goals and the objectives of these terrorists and that certainly would be the wrong signal to send to the Iraqi people at a very critical time.

BROWN: Senator, good to talk to you. Thank you.

SUNUNU: Great to talk to you, Aaron. Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: New Hampshire Republican John Sununu, we talked with him earlier today.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight what's in a name? Well, if you happen to share the name with a suspected terrorist it can mean, among other things, a really long delay before you're allowed on a plane if you are allowed at all.

That story and more as NEWSNIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Like any war, the war on terror has casualties. And some of them are innocent. That is at the heart of this story, people who say they've been targeted by the government, placed on the so-called no-fly list, people who have done nothing wrong except perhaps to have the wrong name.

Here is CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: (voice- over): Being in the U.S. Air Force doesn't help when Michelle Green tries to fly commercially. Because her name or one like it is on the government's no-fly list, when she goes to an airport, she is questioned, searched and delayed, sometimes to the point of missing flights.

MICHELLE GREEN, NO-FLY PLAINTIFF: I give them my orders. I give them my TDY orders. I give them my birth certificate. And I ask them each time if that could be the last time. Is there anything in the system that they can clear me? And they said that there is nothing.

MESERVE: Saying that hundreds if not thousands of other people are suffering significant embarrassment and humiliation, the American Civil Liberties Union is challenging the constitutionality of the no- fly list, which is intended to keep terrorists off of airplanes.

DAVID FATHI, ACLU ATTORNEY: I am not a hijacker. I am not a terrorist. And the government has no reason to put my name on a list of suspected terrorists.

MESERVE: The Transportation Security Administration will not comment on the lawsuit, but admits the no-fly list administered by individual airlines has ensnared innocent travelers.

MARK HATFIELD, TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION: We need to replace the system and get something that is designed for the times, that is designed to protect privacy and address individuals' needs, as well as providing a very needed layer of security.

MESERVE: Specifically, TSA proposes CAPPS-2. It would run passenger names through government and private databases and assign a color-coded risk classification. The ACLU says that could be worse.

JAY STANLEY, ACLU: It doesn't make sense to replace this flawed, deeply flawed program with a larger program that will catch innocent people in larger numbers than is already happening.

MESERVE (on camera): The government maintains CAPPS-2 would stop fewer people, not more, but because of objections from the ACLU and others it has not been able to test the system and no timetable for rolling it out has even been set.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A quick look at some other stories that have made news around the country today and in this case right now.

There has been an Amtrak derailment in rural Mississippi tonight; 72 passengers were on board the city of New Orleans on its way to Chicago when several cars toppled on to the sides just north of Jackson, Mississippi. According to the Associated Press, one person has died. Many others have been hurt. The cause still under investigation. It's early.

The White House announced today that British Prime Minister Tony Blair will come Washington to meet with the president a little more than a week from today. Officials say the meeting is not in response to the increasing wave of bad news out of Iraq but has been in the planning stages for some time. It will be a very busy week for the president. Already on the schedule, Egyptian President Mubarak, King Hussein of Jordan and Ariel Sharon of Israel.

And it is not quite under the heading of the rich get richer, but it is close. The 58-year-old mother of the singer and actress Jennifer Lopez hit the big time in Atlantic City the other day. Mrs. Guadalupe Lopez put in $3 in a slot machine and wound up with nearly $2.5 million. That must have made a lot of noise coming out of the machine. Ms. Lopez is a retired kindergarten teacher. J.Lo was right there, of course, celebrating mom's good luck and good fortune.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, the story of the giant retailer and whether or not it will get its way in the tricky landscape of Southern California.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: An odd mix of stories, that.

Many of the nation's companies are used to getting their own way when it comes to building new stores or new factories, whatever. They get tax breaks. They bring in jobs, considered good for the community. But Wal-Mart is no ordinary company. And its plans for a huge section of land near Los Angeles Airport are not ordinary either. Wal-Mart wants a new super shopping center there so badly, it is putting up the money for a unique election, one that will let voters decide on whether or not it can proceed without a lot of the usual legal speed bumps in California.

Here is CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Look down as you're flying into LAX and you'll see the site where Wal-Mart wants to put a 60-acre shopping destination with a Super Center, a Sam's Club, restaurants and other retail outlets. It is an especially ambitious plan even for the giant Wal-Mart because the company is trying to develop this huge site without submitting to the normal development process, no environmental impact reports, no traffic studies, no public hearings.

Voters will decide directly on a 71-page ballot initiative that outlines the project in detail.

BOB MCADAM, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS. WAL-MART: If we get approval to build this store, it will meet every single -- or exceed every single city code in the city of Inglewood.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: We're trying to save your business.

MESERVE: Opponents include the Reverend Jesse Jackson and Congresswoman Maxine Waters.

WATERS: Wal-Mart has disrespected Inglewood. MESERVE: Others say Wal-Mart is trying to steamroll the project over the city's elected leaders.

REV. ALTAGRACIA PEREZ, ANTI-WAL-MART ACTIVIST: It is 71 pages of legal fine print that seeks to cut the community out of its own development process.

MESERVE: Wal-Mart's Bob McAdam says the company chose this approach when city council members signaled they wouldn't support the project no matter what.

MCADAM: This is not in any kind of an end run. It is just the normal process of letting voters decide.

MESERVE: But Wal-Mart is pushing hard to help voters decide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)

NARRATOR: They brought jobs to the community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: The company says this TV ad about a Wal-Mart right down the street from Inglewood is unrelated to the controversy. But officials do concede they've spent $1 million in direct mail and other efforts.

Community organizer Daniel Tabor says he and others are torn.

DANIEL TABOR, COALITION FOR A BETTER INGLEWOOD: We would love to have you come in. We would love to have the jobs. We would like to have the restaurants. We might like to have Wal-Mart, but not that this cost.

MESERVE: Mayor Roosevelt Dorn is the project's only supporter on the city council. He says opposition to the project has less to do with the process and more to do with labor unions opposing Wal-Mart's non-union work force.

ROOSEVELT DORN, MAYOR OF INGLEWOOD: The issue is, they do not want groceries sold in this development unless they're union. They're interested in what? Union dues.

MESERVE: Organized labor is actively opposing the project. And opponents are hopeful that members of 10,000 union households in Inglewood will help to keep Wal-Mart out.

TABOR: It is not something happening on the waterfront, where they may not live. It is right here at home.

MESERVE: Wal-Mart officials hope that consumers will support their store not just with their wallets this time, but also with their votes.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Inglewood, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few other quick notes from the world of business today.

The Treasury Department says it is investigating whether it is OK for civil servants to analyze tax proposals presented by presidential candidates. Late last month, the Treasury published an analysis of John Kerry's tax proposals without saying exactly that the proposals belonged to Senator Kerry. Democrats cried foul. Today, officials say a preliminary inquiry has started.

Boeing says it has selected two companies, General Electric of the United States and Rolls-Royce of England to build engines for its planned new 77 jet which Boeing calls the Dreamliner. The deals are potentially worth billions of dollars. So it is not good for GE rival Pratt & Whitney.

On Wall Street today, pretty much mixed news, the Dow Jones industrials up about 12.5 points, the tech heavy Nasdaq down 19 and change, a fairly quiet day as far as trading went. First-quarter profit reports are due soon. And investors were waiting, or at least that's what they say.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a look back at one of the world's worst moments, the genocide in Rwanda.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We revisit tonight a chapter in history we should feel some embarrassment about. We don't say that lightly. But 10 years ago, most of the world turned a blind eye to genocide. That is the cold harsh truth of it all. Tens of thousands of people, perhaps as many as a million, were killed. And the world simply watched, doing nothing.

It took place in Rwanda, one of those places most Westerners couldn't find on a map. We warn you as you would expect some of the images you're about to see are graphic.

Here is NEWSNIGHT's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is what happened in the small Central African nation of Rwanda, starting April 6, 1994, 10 years ago. This is what happened.

PHILIP GOUREVITCH, AUTHOR: Generally, it is not something that people have a deep understanding of. Sometimes, you'll hear Rwanda talked about like chaos. It wasn't chaos. It was order.

NISSEN: Philip Gourevitch is the author of a book on the genocide in Rwanda, the organized efforts of one group of the nation's people, the Hutu majority, to exterminate another, the Tutsi.

GOUREVITCH: Anybody who was Tutsi was considered an enemy. It was a blood thing. If you had a Tutsi parent, a Tutsi parent, you could be killed.

NISSEN: In Rwanda, as in Nazi Germany and the killing fields of Cambodia, the mass murders were planned in advance.

GOUREVITCH: There are a number of documents, speeches, actual pieces of paper that show how an entourage around the president of Rwanda in the year before the genocide were preparing the scale of massacres. You can see things like the importation of huge numbers of machetes from China, where they manufacture these.

NISSEN: Then the plan had to be implemented, ordinary Hutu people persuaded to help organize Hutu militias.

GOUREVITCH: People don't go kill their neighbors. They have to be mobilized to do it. It was in the newspapers. This radical propaganda, we must kill all these cockroaches -- cockroach was a euphemism for Tutsi -- we must round them up. We shouldn't let them live.

NISSEN: That message was regularly repeated on radio, a key medium for Rwanda's largely illiterate population.

GOUREVITCH: They would get on the radio and they would specifically say, ladies and gentlemen, at the corner of such and such and such and such a street, we hear that there is a group trying to escape. Do you citizens' duty and go down to that street corner.

NISSEN: Average citizens listened, obeyed. And what they did defies comprehension.

GOUREVITCH: People killed their neighbors. People killed their in-laws. People killed people they knew very well. This was not the anonymous high-tech killing of war or gas chamber. You had a lot of killing with the tools of the field, hoes, machetes, shovels, sticks. People were beaten to death. In some places, they were burnt to death.

NISSEN: Many of the Tutsi sought refuge in churches.

GOUREVITCH: The killers did not respect the sanctuary. And so they would come in and they would kill them in the churches. They would kill them in sports stadiums, in hospitals, pretty much wherever. It was orchestrated to be frenzied.

NISSEN: Frenzied in both violence and speed. Between April and July, Tutsi were killed at the rate of 8,000 a day, more than five per minute.

GOUREVITCH: Eight hundred thousand people were put to death, mostly by hand-to-hand killing in 100 days. It was basically 100 days of killing. It was very, very fast.

NISSEN: So fast that many outside governments and international agencies say they had too little time to recognize what was happening to react. But the United Nations had a peacekeeping force in Rwanda at the start of the genocide, had advance notice that it was planned. Yet U.N. troops were ordered not to intervene and were finally withdrawn.

GOUREVITCH: There's no question that a lot could have been done. Lots and lots and lots of lives could have been saved, not only by military action, but by putting a lot of diplomatic pressure. They could have blown up or scrambled the radio stations. The story of Rwanda is often described as a failure of the international community to intervene. To fail at something, you have to try to do it. The world didn't try to intervene. It didn't want to intervene.

NISSEN: This is what happened in the small Central African nation of Rwanda 10 years ago. This is what happened.

Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Tomorrow in Rwanda, there will e an international day of commemoration of what happened a decade ago. But as much as the people of Rwanda want to ensure that what took place is never forgotten, they are also trying to look to a future, some future as well.

Here is CNN's Jeff Koinange.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Back in Kigali, like many African capitals, traffic flows freely. Streets are filled with shoppers. Hutus and Tutsis are mingling together, both trying to put the painful past behind them. Accomplished sometimes at trauma counseling centers like this, where many relive the past in order to move on. Most are widows whose families were slaughtered while they helplessly watched.

And to further help bring dignity to the slaughtered victims, memorial sites like this genocide holocaust museum have been built to coincide with the anniversary. This one houses the remains of over a quarter of a million mostly Tutsis and sympathetic Hutus. Close to 100,000 suspects were thrown in jail after rebels led by Paul Kagame stormed the capital, ending the genocide.

Now president of Rwanda, he's vowed to reunite a divided nation with or without outside help.

PAUL KAGAME, PRESIDENT OF RWANDA: Most of the achievements and progress that have been made here definitely have been best on the efforts of the Rwandans and with very little input from the international community.

KOINANGE: He released 35,000 suspects in January if they would admit their guilt before a jury of their peers. Suspect are now recounting what they saw and what they did in traditional village courts like this called gacacas. Once done, they are free to live in the community. But in some cases, it is an uneasy relationship, like that of Henriette Mutegwaraba, who lost 16 family members at the hand of one man. HENRIETTE MUTEGWARABA, SURVIVOR: I'm led to forgive him. But I'm not feeling to meet him.

KOINANGE: At churches like this in Kibuye on Rwanda's western border, where over 11,000 people were massacred, life has moved on and survivors show signs of healing. One decade after the genocide, Rwanda is beginning to stumble out of its collective nightmare. But perhaps the agonies of the past will only truly be buried when Rwanda's children, those who did not witness history, grow up.

Jeff Koinange, CNN, Kibuye, Rwanda.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world, give or take a few thousand miles.

I don't think we have ever had "The Christian Science Monitor," so we welcome them to the program and we appreciate them sending a paper here. And here is how they lead. "No Wide Shiite Rally to Sadr's Forces." That is a very thoughtful, I think, carefully written lead or headline. "Shiites Want Iraqi Political Control by June 30, But Say the Violence the Mahdi Army has Incited Since Sunday is Dangerous." So that's their lead. They also put Dr. Rice on the front page. "The Rice Stuff," OK, that's not as good as the other headline. "Is it Enough?" Her testimony Thursday here on CNN and I suppose elsewhere.

"The Detroit News." "U.S. Troops Fall, Bloody Revolt Swells. Up to a dozen Marines latest die as Iraq rebels mount attacks." That is the big story down in the column. But up on top is the big story. "Wings Seek Redemption." The National Hockey League playoffs I guess are under way. And that is a hockey city, so they lead sports.

Everybody is struggling to figure out what the right number to publish is because the numbers keep changing. "The Washington Times": "18 U.S. Troops Die During Iraqi Battles." And then they do a couple of takeouts on Mr. Sadr. "Iran, Hezbollah Support al-Sadr. Coalition Forces Battle al-Sadr backers." And, oh, down here, "Heinz Denies Kerry Connection. Company Stays Neutral," because you don't want Heinz taking a position in a political campaign. It affects the ketchup.

"The Press of Atlanta City." "Twin Uprisings Claim 12 Marines in Iraq. Hospital Officials Report Dozens of Insurgents Dead." But their lead, too, is local. "Harris Planning $200 Million Hotel Expansion Project in Atlantic City."

"San Antonio Express-News." "G.I. Deaths Soar in Iraq." Everybody I leader the same. "Rumsfeld Now Pondering Sending in More Troops." How much time? Ten. Oh, that's not nearly enough. We'll do two more. "Day of Death" is the way "The Boston Herald" leads it. "Twelve Marines Killed As Iraq Explodes."

And the weather tomorrow in Chicago, according to "The Sun-Times" is "phenomenal," 60 degrees. We could use some of that here.

We'll wrap up the day, take a look ahead at tomorrow, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A quick recap again of our top story.

On a tough day, at least 13 Americans and one Ukrainian soldier are dead as fighting has spread throughout several cities both north and south in Iraq, some of the bloodiest fighting since the fall of Baghdad over a year ago. And it shows no signs of letting up tonight.

Tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT, we return to the tragedy of Rwanda, this time through the eyes of a photographer who watched the suffering on both sides and the small, slow steps toward healing.

Quickly now, Bill Hemmer with a look at what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks.

Tomorrow here on "AMERICAN MORNING," millions of Americans still have not yet done their taxes. And with one week to go, how do you get the most of your return without getting that audit? The man you want on your side when it comes to managing money, David Bach with us again, 90-second tips tomorrow morning. Trust CNN. See you tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time -- Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Bill, thank you.

We'll see you again tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time.

Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 6, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
This is not a good news day. In the span of just four days now, just four days, 30 Americans have died in Iraq in a spasm of violence and attacks that threaten at the very least the plan to hand over day- to-day power to the Iraqis in just three months.

In Fallujah it started last week. It was Sunnis then, a stronghold of Saddam and, in some respects, expected. What happened over the weekend and continued on today is more complicated, not just the Sunnis in the north.

This time it is Shiites as well, maybe a fairly small group of Shiites now, several thousand but clearly it runs the risk of spreading and there are signs of that today.

Defense Secretary Rumsfeld acknowledged it may be necessary, underline maybe, to send in more troops and there are no easy answers now. More force solves problems even as it creates others. It is a very messy situation in Iraq tonight that dominates much of the program and begins the whip.

And the whip begins with our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre, Jamie a headline from you.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: And, Aaron, today Defense Secretary Rumsfeld also said there would be some good days and bad days in Iraq and with 12 Marines killed in a fierce firefight near al-Ramadi, it's hard to say this is anything but a bad day.

BROWN: A very bad day.

Baghdad tonight, CNN's Walter Rodgers, Walt a headline from you.

WALTER RODGERS, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, throughout Iraq, the U.S.-led coalition is facing revolts and resistance and it's not just Ramadi and increasingly the questions being asked here is the American experiment in Iraq turning sour -- Aaron?

BROWN: Walt, thank you.

The deadline for the handover of political power to the Iraqis themselves, as we said, less than three months away now. Bob Franken has been working that part of the story for us, so Bob a headline. BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that date is June 30 and President Bush insisted again he's going to meet that target and his probable opponent for the presidential campaign worries out loud whether that is a political target -- Aaron.

BROWN: Bob, thank you.

And finally, a look back at one of the world's dismal failures, genocide in Rwanda, a decade ago, CNN's Beth Nissen -- Beth.

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It is one of the most unambiguous cases of genocide since the Holocaust. Eight hundred thousand people killed in 100 days. It happened in the small African nation of Rwanda. The killing started ten years ago.

BROWN: Nissen, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up in the hour ahead, we'll also see how those people the government thinks may be security risks should not be allowed to fly are planning to fight back.

We'll take a look at how the world's largest retailer is mounting a fight of its own over whether it can build an enormous retail shopping center in the heart of Southern California.

And, of course, the rooster is with us again tonight. It won't be hard to predict what's going to be on the front pages tomorrow but the headlines always tell the tale and we will get to them as well, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin in Iraq. It was a bitter, bloody day there today with much still to be known, one of the bloodiest days in Iraq since the major combat ended a year ago May. The violence itself may have been what the American military was expecting but there is no way you can plan for what has broken out over the last several days.

As many as a dozen Marines were killed in the western Iraqi city of Ramadi today, a city in the so-called Sunni Triangle where Saddam still has many followers. The attacks took place, according to Pentagon sources, near the governor's palace in that city.

In Fallujah there was heavy fighting as American Marines continued their assault in response to the killing and mutilation of four American civilians in that city last week.

In the south, in the Iraqi cities of Nasiriyah and Karbala, more heavy fighting there, Americans and others involved and, in Baghdad itself, there were firefights in the Shiite enclave of Sadr City that carried on well into the night.

The death toll so far for today at least 13 American soldiers dead, another Ukrainian soldier who was a member of the coalition died as well. At least 70 Iraqis died.

Since this new fighting began more than three days ago, more than 30 coalition troops have been killed, an unknown number of Iraqis, insurgents and innocents, have died as well. That is the overview on a difficult day.

For the detail, we begin with our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre who has been working the Ramadi attack since late this afternoon, Jamie good evening again.

MCINTYRE: Well, good evening, Aaron.

You know Pentagon officials are often chiding us to keep these stories in perspective and don't forget the positive things that are going on but it's hard to put a good face on what happened today in Iraq, particularly in Ramadi where Pentagon sources say as many as 12 Marines were killed in a fierce firefight that took place over several hours as anti-U.S. insurgents apparently attacked the Marine position and then took over some buildings in what we're told is the governor's compound.

These are buildings that were under Iraqi government and coalition control. We're told tonight that it's not clear that all the fighting is over but apparently the Marines have retaken the buildings and inflicted heavy casualties on the anti-U.S. forces.

It's still not clear who the Pentagon or who the military was facing here. There was some thought it might be Shia inspired violence from the cleric al-Sadr who has been inciting violence against the U.S.

But Pentagon sources say they believe that because this is in the Sunni Triangle in an area where there's been a lot of anti-U.S. sentiment they believe they're dealing with former regime elements, Ba'athist sympathizers, much like those in Fallujah where the Marines have been operating a major offensive trying to crack down and pacify that city.

Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld today conceded that his military planners are looking at options for more troops for Iraq but he said at this point they have not made any change in their plans. He did say whatever the commanders say they need they will get and he did also say they could make a request at any time -- Aaron.

BROWN: How comfortable are we that the number 12 is going to be the number of American dead from this Ramadi attack?

MCINTYRE: Well, Pentagon officials have cautioned us from the beginning that these were the initial reports they were getting back here and clearly the number could rise, although the fact that the estimate, about 12, has stayed constant over the last five hours or so probably means it's not going to climb much higher from this incident.

I'm just reminded though back in 1993 when we first heard about the Rangers being attacked in Somalia, we were also told at that time 12 people were killed. Eventually that death toll went to 18.

BROWN: And just one other question on this, is there -- do you detect in the Pentagon itself a noticeable change over the last, I guess the last week? I mean this violence in the Sunni Triangle has been going on but the spread of it into the Shia areas is something, something else again.

MCINTYRE: Well, first of all, some of the very senior officials have conceded that they find that violence in the Shia area much more troublesome. They felt that the problem in Fallujah is something that they could deal with applying enough force, enough combat force they could essentially pacify that city and they're much more concerned about that.

And I think the mood has changed slightly, not that there's any less resolve but I think they realize that they've got a real public relations and perception problem here as these deaths continue to mount and there's a resolve that they need to confront that and deal with that as well.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We would suggest that it's probably more than just a public relations problem. They've got families who are wondering what's going on there as well. Thank you.

That's the Ramadi part of the story and the Pentagon's part of the story. There was, as we told you at the beginning, fighting in large pockets in various parts of the country, in Baghdad and to the south as well.

CNN's Walter Rodgers worked those parts of the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RODGERS (voice-over): U.S. Marines are outside this city but militants visibly roam Fallujah streets and the battle for the hearts and minds of Iraqis is still in doubt.

"We're not the terrorists as Bush said" this spider declared. "The terrorist is the one attacking me in my country in my home."

U.S. Marines have now ringed Fallujah trying to reestablish control after a mob murdered four American civilians here a week ago.

PAUL BREMER, U.S. ADMINISTRATOR IN IRAQ: There is no question we have control of the country.

RODGERS: That American claim of control conflicts sharply, however, with another coalition source speaking on the condition of anonymity who told CNN much of the Holy City of al-Najaf, this mosque, police stations and government buildings are controlled by the private army of the fiery Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. And American tanks have been on Baghdad streets since Sunday fighting off an armed Shiite revolt, disillusioning for U.S. soldiers.

CAPT. JEFF MERCIOWSKI, U.S. ARMY: We've done numerous community improvement projects in this area and right now we're trying to find out why we were being shot at last night.

RODGERS: Iraqis have questions too like why have about 100 Iraqis been killed since Sunday? This Iraqi asked "why did U.S. soldiers do this to us? If I had a weapon I would fight them."

A spokesman for Muqtada al-Sadr issued an ultimatum calling on Americans to get out of Iraqi cities or the uprising will continue.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RODGERS: Another Muslim cleric summed it up this way. He said the Americans face a big challenge here trying to convince us their civilization is right -- Aaron.

BROWN: Let's go to Ramadi because you've been working from your post there. What's going on there? Do you have any update on that fight?

RODGERS: We know the Marines are having a very stiff fight. They're fighting street to street. It was night fighting, which is, of course, the most difficult and for the Marines they were fighting in unfamiliar territory.

They were probably caught off guard by this but because Ramadi is indeed territory assigned to the Marines they were thrown into the breach very quickly and had to take on upwards of 100 Iraqi Sunni fighters.

It was a very stiff fight. As Jamie McIntyre pointed out, at least 12 U.S. Marines were killed, more than 20 injured. We have no word yet as to whether the buildings which were seized have even been recaptured -- Aaron.

BROWN: Walter thank you, Walter Rodgers up early in Baghdad.

The military has an axiom about the battlefield. The first reports are usually wrong and often exaggerated but there is little doubt tonight that the past three days in Iraq have been exceedingly difficult and the five before that were not walk in the park either.

Here to help us get a handle on some of this is someone we've talked to a lot on the program over the months since the war began. Rod Nordland is the Bureau Chief in Baghdad for "Newsweek" magazine. He's with us this morning or tonight. It's good to see you again. Is this a spasm of violence or is it a sea change do you think?

ROD NORDLAND, BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF "NEWSWEEK": Well, it's a little early to be sure. In some ways, it's not quite as bad as it looks. I mean Muqtada Sadr has relatively few fighters. Most of the incidents in various cities around Iraq were probably or were for the most part followers that he bussed down there for those occasions. They weren't indigenous uprisings.

As far as Fallujah and Ramadi are concerned those places have always been tough nuts. They've always been very anti-American, solidly anti-American, and once you put troops in there, there's liable to be problems, unfortunately, bigger problems than they expected but they're localized situations. They're not typical of all of Iraq.

The real danger is that we'll hit back so hard in those places or in the effort to get Muqtada Sadr that that will create a backlash that maybe will lead to an uprising and we have this danger of a kind of crossover between the Sunnis and the Shia, the radical Shia that is something completely new to the scene here and very worrisome.

BROWN: Is there -- I saw a report that Mr. Sadr is trying to align himself with the Ayatollah al-Sistani, at least in words coming out of his office and his spokesman. Is that realistic that that will happen and is that dangerous to the Americans or positive to the Americans if it happens?

NORDLAND: Well, there were initial reports that Sistani actually gave some limited measure of support to Muqtada Sadr. That appears to have been wrong. What Sistani did was call for calm and call for negotiations. But what Sadr has done yesterday is moved his -- moved his -- well moved himself from Kufa outside of Najaf to his own office inside Najaf, which is actually one block away from Sistani's office.

So, if they go in with heavy forces to try to arrest Sadr, which they say they're going to do, there's a very real danger that they can involve Sistani's people as well and that would be really disastrous because Sistani is someone that all Shia look up to in Iraq.

BROWN: Just to put a button on that it is hard to imagine that the Americans can accomplish what we want to accomplish there without the assistance of Sistani.

NORDLAND: Well that's right. In fact, it's hard to accomplish anything in this country at this point without the assistance of Sistani but they're in a very difficult situation. The more time goes by the more some radical elements are rallying to Muqtada Sadr and the more he looks the hero.

On the other hand, if they do try to take him it's clear that's going to involve a great loss of life and with the possibility of alienating the Shia even further. It's a very difficult situation they're in at the time that they're also very much engaged on another front with the Sunnis in Fallujah and Ramadi.

BROWN: Anybody suggesting, anybody in the CPA suggesting it was a mistake to close down Sadr's newspaper?

NORDLAND: Not in the CPA. I think they're kind of circling the wagons on that issue but in the governing council quite a few people are very upset. They say they advised the Americans not to go after Sadr at this point.

They closed -- this all began when they closed his newspaper about a week ago and even at that point they were worrying that this is the wrong time to do it especially with Arbayeen holidays coming up, which is the 40th day after these bombings in Karbala and Baghdad that killed so many Shia.

There are going to be literally millions of people in the streets in Najaf and Karbala, especially in Karbala in just a few days and if they end up causing casualties among his people that will bring the whole cycle of funerals and mourners and more people in the street, so it's a very explosive situation.

BROWN: It just sounds like the anxiety level, whatever the degree of the violence and however widespread it is, that the anxiety level as we approach this holiday and the rest must be incredible there right now.

NORDLAND: Yes and there are other holidays coming up as well. April 9th is the anniversary of the fall of Baghdad. We can expect some sort of display of something from the opposition. They take their holidays very seriously. Today, I believe, is the anniversary of the founding of the Ba'ath Party as well, so all tolled it's going to be a very busy week ahead.

BROWN: Rod, thank you, Rod Nordland the Bureau Chief for "Newsweek" magazine there.

We have more on Iraq as we go tonight. The countdown to July 1 or June 30, the day Iraq is supposed to become a sovereign nation ruled by Iraqis. I'll get to you. Hang on.

And ten years later, the emotional wounds of the massacre in Rwanda still fresh and the questions for all of us and I do mean all of us still remain, a break first.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Twelve weeks is not a very long time. For those of us who remember high school, it's the time between Spring Break and graduation more or less. In 12 weeks, the Bush administration plan is that Iraq will once again become a sovereign nation, albeit without control over its own security forces, a pretty important aspect of sovereignty. But even as the violence escalates the administration remains firm. June 30 is still the date.

Here's CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will pass sovereignty on June 30. We'll stay the course in Iraq.

FRANKEN (voice-over): The June 30 date was the result of painstaking negotiations with the Iraqi Governing Council, which insisted on a firm deadline but time is growing short.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), FOREIGN RELATIONS COMMITTEE: What's the plan? Who is going to be in charge after that? Who is going to be the referee in effect?

FRANKEN: The president's man in Baghdad says that the plan is a work in progress. BREMER: We are determining the size and shape of the interim government. It will be in place well before June 30 and we will pass sovereignty to that interim government on June 30 as scheduled.

FRANKEN: And, as the U.S. defense secretary hastens to add this sovereignty definitely has its limits.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Our security forces, coalition forces are going to stay right there and do what they have to do.

FRANKEN: The timing is certainly politically sensitive.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's a mistake to set an arbitrary date and I hope that date has nothing to do with the election here in the United States.

FRANKEN: Actually, there is support for a date certain from a high-ranking member of the Clinton administration.

WILLIAM COHEN, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: By setting a date it at least forces the parties to think very constructively how they can put a governing authority together at the short term before they have elections by January of next year.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: A date but will June 30 remain the date? Is it cast in concrete or is the situation in Iraq too unpredictably violent, too fluid for the concrete to really be set -- Aaron?

BROWN: And what is the answer to that? Is it set in concrete or is there a little wiggle room there if the administration wants it?

FRANKEN: There's wiggle room, discernible wiggle room. Anybody who makes this comment in effect says right now we are planning to go forward with June 30 but the fact is, is that if June 30 comes and there isn't this handover it's going to be a big embarrassment for the Bush administration and in this political year that is a real incentive to try and meet the deadline.

BROWN: Bob, thank you, Bob Franken in Washington tonight.

This question of the June 30 deadline has been on the edges of the public debate for weeks. In the last week it moved dead center. The two ranking members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee have started raising questions. Others may follow.

Senator John Sununu is a New Hampshire Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and he, for one, believes in the president's time table. We talked with the Senator from Washington earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Senator, given the situation in Iraq today and, in fact, the situation in Iraq today even as we speak seems to be deteriorating even more. What makes you believe that the June 30 deadline is realistic?

SEN. JOHN SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, the fact is the intensity of the fighting that we're seeing today is in part because of the June 30 deadline. These are groups that want to destabilize the situation. Their goal is to put off the transition because ultimately they are not supportive of the idea of representational government in Iraq.

These aren't participants, the Shiites, who are participating in the governing council activities they're predominately these violent factions that are supported by the Iranians. They consider themselves to be the arm of Hezbollah or Hamas in Iraq and they want to destabilize that June 30 deadline.

That is going to be a tough deadline but it's important that we keep our promise to the Iraqi people to turn over political control of their future on that June 30 date.

BROWN: Who exactly are we turning control over to?

SUNUNU: That's a good question. There are two fundamental questions that need to be answered in the next four weeks for all intents and purposes. One, the structure of the interim governing authority.

That is what the U.N. envoy Brahimi is there to do as we speak. He is working in consultation with the coalition, in consultation with the Iraqis to structure the interim government that will be in place for about seven months, from June 30 until we have elections at the end of next January and during those seven months the interim government is going to prepare for elections, write a budget and, of course, manage the ministries.

The second question that needs to be answered is what the structure of the new embassy is going to be. Who is going to be in charge of course, who the American ambassador is going to be and that person will be very important because they'll have responsibility for a lot of the ongoing reconstruction efforts.

Ambassador Bremer was supposed to be here today to brief the Senate on these two important questions. Obviously, he wasn't able to make that briefing but those are questions that need to be answered.

BROWN: Do you believe that the interim government in Iraq today is seen by the Iraqis, it doesn't matter what the Americans think, is seen by the Iraqis as legitimate?

SUNUNU: I think it's seen by most Iraqis to be what you describe it as, an interim government and, at the same time, while there hasn't emerged a strong consensus leader the transition of political responsibility to the Iraqis is extremely important and I would venture extremely important to the Iraqi people.

BROWN: There is a perception among many people, some in this country, some abroad, some in the British government for example that this June 30 deadline is essentially driven by American political considerations and not facts on the ground. Do you think there's any element of truth in that at all?

SUNUNU: No. I don't think it's driven by political considerations in the sense of partisan politics, presidential campaign politics or anything along those lines. I think it's driven as much by the consideration, the political consideration for its impact on the Iraqi people.

What does it mean if we break our promise to the Iraqi people to move toward a transfer of political power by June 30? What does it mean to the morale of the Iraqi people or the morale of the coalition partners if we allow these insurgents and these attacks that took place over the weekend to derail that June 30 deadline as they were intended to do?

To a certain extent we would be giving into the goals and the objectives of these terrorists and that certainly would be the wrong signal to send to the Iraqi people at a very critical time.

BROWN: Senator, good to talk to you. Thank you.

SUNUNU: Great to talk to you, Aaron. Thank you very much.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: New Hampshire Republican John Sununu, we talked with him earlier today.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight what's in a name? Well, if you happen to share the name with a suspected terrorist it can mean, among other things, a really long delay before you're allowed on a plane if you are allowed at all.

That story and more as NEWSNIGHT continues.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Like any war, the war on terror has casualties. And some of them are innocent. That is at the heart of this story, people who say they've been targeted by the government, placed on the so-called no-fly list, people who have done nothing wrong except perhaps to have the wrong name.

Here is CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: (voice- over): Being in the U.S. Air Force doesn't help when Michelle Green tries to fly commercially. Because her name or one like it is on the government's no-fly list, when she goes to an airport, she is questioned, searched and delayed, sometimes to the point of missing flights.

MICHELLE GREEN, NO-FLY PLAINTIFF: I give them my orders. I give them my TDY orders. I give them my birth certificate. And I ask them each time if that could be the last time. Is there anything in the system that they can clear me? And they said that there is nothing.

MESERVE: Saying that hundreds if not thousands of other people are suffering significant embarrassment and humiliation, the American Civil Liberties Union is challenging the constitutionality of the no- fly list, which is intended to keep terrorists off of airplanes.

DAVID FATHI, ACLU ATTORNEY: I am not a hijacker. I am not a terrorist. And the government has no reason to put my name on a list of suspected terrorists.

MESERVE: The Transportation Security Administration will not comment on the lawsuit, but admits the no-fly list administered by individual airlines has ensnared innocent travelers.

MARK HATFIELD, TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION: We need to replace the system and get something that is designed for the times, that is designed to protect privacy and address individuals' needs, as well as providing a very needed layer of security.

MESERVE: Specifically, TSA proposes CAPPS-2. It would run passenger names through government and private databases and assign a color-coded risk classification. The ACLU says that could be worse.

JAY STANLEY, ACLU: It doesn't make sense to replace this flawed, deeply flawed program with a larger program that will catch innocent people in larger numbers than is already happening.

MESERVE (on camera): The government maintains CAPPS-2 would stop fewer people, not more, but because of objections from the ACLU and others it has not been able to test the system and no timetable for rolling it out has even been set.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A quick look at some other stories that have made news around the country today and in this case right now.

There has been an Amtrak derailment in rural Mississippi tonight; 72 passengers were on board the city of New Orleans on its way to Chicago when several cars toppled on to the sides just north of Jackson, Mississippi. According to the Associated Press, one person has died. Many others have been hurt. The cause still under investigation. It's early.

The White House announced today that British Prime Minister Tony Blair will come Washington to meet with the president a little more than a week from today. Officials say the meeting is not in response to the increasing wave of bad news out of Iraq but has been in the planning stages for some time. It will be a very busy week for the president. Already on the schedule, Egyptian President Mubarak, King Hussein of Jordan and Ariel Sharon of Israel.

And it is not quite under the heading of the rich get richer, but it is close. The 58-year-old mother of the singer and actress Jennifer Lopez hit the big time in Atlantic City the other day. Mrs. Guadalupe Lopez put in $3 in a slot machine and wound up with nearly $2.5 million. That must have made a lot of noise coming out of the machine. Ms. Lopez is a retired kindergarten teacher. J.Lo was right there, of course, celebrating mom's good luck and good fortune.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, the story of the giant retailer and whether or not it will get its way in the tricky landscape of Southern California.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: An odd mix of stories, that.

Many of the nation's companies are used to getting their own way when it comes to building new stores or new factories, whatever. They get tax breaks. They bring in jobs, considered good for the community. But Wal-Mart is no ordinary company. And its plans for a huge section of land near Los Angeles Airport are not ordinary either. Wal-Mart wants a new super shopping center there so badly, it is putting up the money for a unique election, one that will let voters decide on whether or not it can proceed without a lot of the usual legal speed bumps in California.

Here is CNN's Frank Buckley.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Look down as you're flying into LAX and you'll see the site where Wal-Mart wants to put a 60-acre shopping destination with a Super Center, a Sam's Club, restaurants and other retail outlets. It is an especially ambitious plan even for the giant Wal-Mart because the company is trying to develop this huge site without submitting to the normal development process, no environmental impact reports, no traffic studies, no public hearings.

Voters will decide directly on a 71-page ballot initiative that outlines the project in detail.

BOB MCADAM, VICE PRESIDENT OF GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS. WAL-MART: If we get approval to build this store, it will meet every single -- or exceed every single city code in the city of Inglewood.

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D), CALIFORNIA: We're trying to save your business.

MESERVE: Opponents include the Reverend Jesse Jackson and Congresswoman Maxine Waters.

WATERS: Wal-Mart has disrespected Inglewood. MESERVE: Others say Wal-Mart is trying to steamroll the project over the city's elected leaders.

REV. ALTAGRACIA PEREZ, ANTI-WAL-MART ACTIVIST: It is 71 pages of legal fine print that seeks to cut the community out of its own development process.

MESERVE: Wal-Mart's Bob McAdam says the company chose this approach when city council members signaled they wouldn't support the project no matter what.

MCADAM: This is not in any kind of an end run. It is just the normal process of letting voters decide.

MESERVE: But Wal-Mart is pushing hard to help voters decide.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, AD)

NARRATOR: They brought jobs to the community.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MESERVE: The company says this TV ad about a Wal-Mart right down the street from Inglewood is unrelated to the controversy. But officials do concede they've spent $1 million in direct mail and other efforts.

Community organizer Daniel Tabor says he and others are torn.

DANIEL TABOR, COALITION FOR A BETTER INGLEWOOD: We would love to have you come in. We would love to have the jobs. We would like to have the restaurants. We might like to have Wal-Mart, but not that this cost.

MESERVE: Mayor Roosevelt Dorn is the project's only supporter on the city council. He says opposition to the project has less to do with the process and more to do with labor unions opposing Wal-Mart's non-union work force.

ROOSEVELT DORN, MAYOR OF INGLEWOOD: The issue is, they do not want groceries sold in this development unless they're union. They're interested in what? Union dues.

MESERVE: Organized labor is actively opposing the project. And opponents are hopeful that members of 10,000 union households in Inglewood will help to keep Wal-Mart out.

TABOR: It is not something happening on the waterfront, where they may not live. It is right here at home.

MESERVE: Wal-Mart officials hope that consumers will support their store not just with their wallets this time, but also with their votes.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Inglewood, California.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few other quick notes from the world of business today.

The Treasury Department says it is investigating whether it is OK for civil servants to analyze tax proposals presented by presidential candidates. Late last month, the Treasury published an analysis of John Kerry's tax proposals without saying exactly that the proposals belonged to Senator Kerry. Democrats cried foul. Today, officials say a preliminary inquiry has started.

Boeing says it has selected two companies, General Electric of the United States and Rolls-Royce of England to build engines for its planned new 77 jet which Boeing calls the Dreamliner. The deals are potentially worth billions of dollars. So it is not good for GE rival Pratt & Whitney.

On Wall Street today, pretty much mixed news, the Dow Jones industrials up about 12.5 points, the tech heavy Nasdaq down 19 and change, a fairly quiet day as far as trading went. First-quarter profit reports are due soon. And investors were waiting, or at least that's what they say.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, a look back at one of the world's worst moments, the genocide in Rwanda.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We revisit tonight a chapter in history we should feel some embarrassment about. We don't say that lightly. But 10 years ago, most of the world turned a blind eye to genocide. That is the cold harsh truth of it all. Tens of thousands of people, perhaps as many as a million, were killed. And the world simply watched, doing nothing.

It took place in Rwanda, one of those places most Westerners couldn't find on a map. We warn you as you would expect some of the images you're about to see are graphic.

Here is NEWSNIGHT's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is what happened in the small Central African nation of Rwanda, starting April 6, 1994, 10 years ago. This is what happened.

PHILIP GOUREVITCH, AUTHOR: Generally, it is not something that people have a deep understanding of. Sometimes, you'll hear Rwanda talked about like chaos. It wasn't chaos. It was order.

NISSEN: Philip Gourevitch is the author of a book on the genocide in Rwanda, the organized efforts of one group of the nation's people, the Hutu majority, to exterminate another, the Tutsi.

GOUREVITCH: Anybody who was Tutsi was considered an enemy. It was a blood thing. If you had a Tutsi parent, a Tutsi parent, you could be killed.

NISSEN: In Rwanda, as in Nazi Germany and the killing fields of Cambodia, the mass murders were planned in advance.

GOUREVITCH: There are a number of documents, speeches, actual pieces of paper that show how an entourage around the president of Rwanda in the year before the genocide were preparing the scale of massacres. You can see things like the importation of huge numbers of machetes from China, where they manufacture these.

NISSEN: Then the plan had to be implemented, ordinary Hutu people persuaded to help organize Hutu militias.

GOUREVITCH: People don't go kill their neighbors. They have to be mobilized to do it. It was in the newspapers. This radical propaganda, we must kill all these cockroaches -- cockroach was a euphemism for Tutsi -- we must round them up. We shouldn't let them live.

NISSEN: That message was regularly repeated on radio, a key medium for Rwanda's largely illiterate population.

GOUREVITCH: They would get on the radio and they would specifically say, ladies and gentlemen, at the corner of such and such and such and such a street, we hear that there is a group trying to escape. Do you citizens' duty and go down to that street corner.

NISSEN: Average citizens listened, obeyed. And what they did defies comprehension.

GOUREVITCH: People killed their neighbors. People killed their in-laws. People killed people they knew very well. This was not the anonymous high-tech killing of war or gas chamber. You had a lot of killing with the tools of the field, hoes, machetes, shovels, sticks. People were beaten to death. In some places, they were burnt to death.

NISSEN: Many of the Tutsi sought refuge in churches.

GOUREVITCH: The killers did not respect the sanctuary. And so they would come in and they would kill them in the churches. They would kill them in sports stadiums, in hospitals, pretty much wherever. It was orchestrated to be frenzied.

NISSEN: Frenzied in both violence and speed. Between April and July, Tutsi were killed at the rate of 8,000 a day, more than five per minute.

GOUREVITCH: Eight hundred thousand people were put to death, mostly by hand-to-hand killing in 100 days. It was basically 100 days of killing. It was very, very fast.

NISSEN: So fast that many outside governments and international agencies say they had too little time to recognize what was happening to react. But the United Nations had a peacekeeping force in Rwanda at the start of the genocide, had advance notice that it was planned. Yet U.N. troops were ordered not to intervene and were finally withdrawn.

GOUREVITCH: There's no question that a lot could have been done. Lots and lots and lots of lives could have been saved, not only by military action, but by putting a lot of diplomatic pressure. They could have blown up or scrambled the radio stations. The story of Rwanda is often described as a failure of the international community to intervene. To fail at something, you have to try to do it. The world didn't try to intervene. It didn't want to intervene.

NISSEN: This is what happened in the small Central African nation of Rwanda 10 years ago. This is what happened.

Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Tomorrow in Rwanda, there will e an international day of commemoration of what happened a decade ago. But as much as the people of Rwanda want to ensure that what took place is never forgotten, they are also trying to look to a future, some future as well.

Here is CNN's Jeff Koinange.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF KOINANGE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Back in Kigali, like many African capitals, traffic flows freely. Streets are filled with shoppers. Hutus and Tutsis are mingling together, both trying to put the painful past behind them. Accomplished sometimes at trauma counseling centers like this, where many relive the past in order to move on. Most are widows whose families were slaughtered while they helplessly watched.

And to further help bring dignity to the slaughtered victims, memorial sites like this genocide holocaust museum have been built to coincide with the anniversary. This one houses the remains of over a quarter of a million mostly Tutsis and sympathetic Hutus. Close to 100,000 suspects were thrown in jail after rebels led by Paul Kagame stormed the capital, ending the genocide.

Now president of Rwanda, he's vowed to reunite a divided nation with or without outside help.

PAUL KAGAME, PRESIDENT OF RWANDA: Most of the achievements and progress that have been made here definitely have been best on the efforts of the Rwandans and with very little input from the international community.

KOINANGE: He released 35,000 suspects in January if they would admit their guilt before a jury of their peers. Suspect are now recounting what they saw and what they did in traditional village courts like this called gacacas. Once done, they are free to live in the community. But in some cases, it is an uneasy relationship, like that of Henriette Mutegwaraba, who lost 16 family members at the hand of one man. HENRIETTE MUTEGWARABA, SURVIVOR: I'm led to forgive him. But I'm not feeling to meet him.

KOINANGE: At churches like this in Kibuye on Rwanda's western border, where over 11,000 people were massacred, life has moved on and survivors show signs of healing. One decade after the genocide, Rwanda is beginning to stumble out of its collective nightmare. But perhaps the agonies of the past will only truly be buried when Rwanda's children, those who did not witness history, grow up.

Jeff Koinange, CNN, Kibuye, Rwanda.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world, give or take a few thousand miles.

I don't think we have ever had "The Christian Science Monitor," so we welcome them to the program and we appreciate them sending a paper here. And here is how they lead. "No Wide Shiite Rally to Sadr's Forces." That is a very thoughtful, I think, carefully written lead or headline. "Shiites Want Iraqi Political Control by June 30, But Say the Violence the Mahdi Army has Incited Since Sunday is Dangerous." So that's their lead. They also put Dr. Rice on the front page. "The Rice Stuff," OK, that's not as good as the other headline. "Is it Enough?" Her testimony Thursday here on CNN and I suppose elsewhere.

"The Detroit News." "U.S. Troops Fall, Bloody Revolt Swells. Up to a dozen Marines latest die as Iraq rebels mount attacks." That is the big story down in the column. But up on top is the big story. "Wings Seek Redemption." The National Hockey League playoffs I guess are under way. And that is a hockey city, so they lead sports.

Everybody is struggling to figure out what the right number to publish is because the numbers keep changing. "The Washington Times": "18 U.S. Troops Die During Iraqi Battles." And then they do a couple of takeouts on Mr. Sadr. "Iran, Hezbollah Support al-Sadr. Coalition Forces Battle al-Sadr backers." And, oh, down here, "Heinz Denies Kerry Connection. Company Stays Neutral," because you don't want Heinz taking a position in a political campaign. It affects the ketchup.

"The Press of Atlanta City." "Twin Uprisings Claim 12 Marines in Iraq. Hospital Officials Report Dozens of Insurgents Dead." But their lead, too, is local. "Harris Planning $200 Million Hotel Expansion Project in Atlantic City."

"San Antonio Express-News." "G.I. Deaths Soar in Iraq." Everybody I leader the same. "Rumsfeld Now Pondering Sending in More Troops." How much time? Ten. Oh, that's not nearly enough. We'll do two more. "Day of Death" is the way "The Boston Herald" leads it. "Twelve Marines Killed As Iraq Explodes."

And the weather tomorrow in Chicago, according to "The Sun-Times" is "phenomenal," 60 degrees. We could use some of that here.

We'll wrap up the day, take a look ahead at tomorrow, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A quick recap again of our top story.

On a tough day, at least 13 Americans and one Ukrainian soldier are dead as fighting has spread throughout several cities both north and south in Iraq, some of the bloodiest fighting since the fall of Baghdad over a year ago. And it shows no signs of letting up tonight.

Tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT, we return to the tragedy of Rwanda, this time through the eyes of a photographer who watched the suffering on both sides and the small, slow steps toward healing.

Quickly now, Bill Hemmer with a look at what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks.

Tomorrow here on "AMERICAN MORNING," millions of Americans still have not yet done their taxes. And with one week to go, how do you get the most of your return without getting that audit? The man you want on your side when it comes to managing money, David Bach with us again, 90-second tips tomorrow morning. Trust CNN. See you tomorrow morning at 7:00 a.m. Eastern time -- Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Bill, thank you.

We'll see you again tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time.

Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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