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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
President Bush Holds Prime-Time News Conference; More Troops Likely Headed to Iraq
Aired April 13, 2004 - 22:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
Said the president tonight, "We are trying to change the world." No easy task is that, as the last few weeks have proven. The president, who does not like formal news conferences, went before reporters tonight determined to make the case for Iraq again.
Things are tough there, he acknowledged, but they are getting better. If more troops are needed, he said, they will be sent. The transfer of sovereignty will take place on schedule. It must. Those were the easy things in many respects. The harder part is convincing the world to join. And that, too is part of the story tonight.
We talked, as Larry mentioned, earlier today with the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak. And we'll have that coming up later.
Like the news conference itself, Iraq and 9/11 dominate the program tonight and begin "The Whip," a very busy night for our senior White House correspondent, John King.
So, John, start us out with a headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Iraq and the war on terrorism dominated the hour-long new conference. The president rejected critics who say Iraq has become his Vietnam. He said it's been a tough few weeks in Iraq, but he also said he did not think that those tough few weeks would cost him his job come November -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. We'll come to you at the top.
Next to the Pentagon and CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, a headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, as you know, the president said if they need more troops in Iraq he'll send them. But, as it turns out, they do need more troops and they'll be staying instead of going. Also, four bodies found in Baghdad today may be those of some missing American contractors -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jamie, we'll to that, too, quite quickly.
On to Iraq itself, another tense and difficult day after many tense and difficult days.
Jim Clancy has the duty tonight.
Jim, a headline.
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two U.S. Marines die, eight more are wounded despite a cease-fire in Fallujah. Plus, as dawn comes here Wednesday morning in Iraq, the question is, how many Westerners will disappear today, as the hostage crisis aims to derail coalition support?
BROWN: Jim, thank you.
And all of this is playing out against a political backdrop. That goes almost without saying, almost.
CNN's Candy Crowley with us tonight.
So, Candy, the political headline from you.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: The political headline is that John Kerry has been noticeably low-key in his responses to the 9/11 Commission and to Iraq. Why? Well, sometimes in life as in politics less can be more.
BROWN: Candy, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up on the program tonight, the 9/11 Commission had one of its most informative days to date, hearing from the heads of the Justice Department and the FBI of two administrations, our front line troops against terrorism. And we'll have that.
Is there movement in the long-stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace process? An exclusive interview with the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, who was fresh from the president's ranch in Texas.
And we'll take a look at the bulldog editions of newspapers around the country and around the world. Morning papers will wrap it all up. All that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin tonight with President Bush's moment before the news media and the country, as much an opportunity to make a strong statement as it was to answer tough questions. It was a venue and a format rarely used by the president. Clearly the White House considers the moment important enough to break with routine, coming as it does with Iraq at a turning point and the administration under growing certainty over 9/11.
So we begin with our senior White House correspondent, John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): Iraq dominated the hour-long event. And as the president rebutted his critics and vowed to stay the course, he also predicted what called a tough series of weeks for the American people would not cost him his job come November. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, nobody likes to see dead people on their television screens. I don't. It is a tough time for the American people to see that. It is gut- wrenching.
KING: Mr. Bush met with reporters in the East Room of the White House, as the Pentagon mulled adding 20,000 troops to deal with the violent insurgency.
BUSH: If additional forces are needed, I will send them. If additional resources are needed, we will provide them.
KING: The president said it is critical to hold fast to a June 30 deadline to transfer sovereignty to a new Iraqi government, even though there is no clear plan yet as to what that new government will look like.
BUSH: As a proud and independent people, Iraqis do not support an indefinite occupation and neither does America. We're not an imperial power.
KING: But Mr. Bush made clear a significant number of U.S. troops would remain in Iraq well past the transfer of sovereignty and in doing so he took sharp issue with critics who call Iraq this president's Vietnam.
BUSH: I think the analogy is false. I also happen to think that analogy is -- sends the wrong message to our troops and sends the wrong message to the enemy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Now, Mr. Bush passed up an opportunity to join his former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke in offering an apology to the families of 9/11 victims. Mr. Bush says he still gets -- quote -- "sick" when he thinks about that day, but he said also that Osama bin Laden is responsible for the attacks.
And, Aaron, the president was asked if he had made any mistakes, he said he was sure that he has, but he could not name one, although he did say, looking back at the events and the government's actions pre-9/11, that it was clear that the government, this country, the United States, was not on a war footing. The president said, the enemy was at war with us. The United States should have been on that war footing -- Aaron.
BROWN: Which I think is almost literally exactly what Condoleezza Rice said last week. Other than that, did the president on 9/11 break any new ground today?
KING: He did not. He held fast when asked about that August 6 briefing he received just a little more than a month before the attacks. There was an inkling he said of a hijacking. The president was asked did he specifically do anything about that?
There could be 100, 200 Americans on an airplane that could be hijacked. He asked did not answer the question directly when asked, set aside the idea that no one thought they would fly planes into buildings. What about the possibility they might hijack one? He was asked did he do anything to take that into account. He did not answer the question.
BROWN: Now just step back from it all. The fact that the president, who does not -- I think this has only been what, the 10th news conference of his administration, maybe less than that, what does it say that they felt that the White House or the president felt that they had to come out in prime time and do this tonight?
KING: It is certainly a reflection of the politics of this country and the global politics of Iraq right now, that this president needed to come out and make a strong statement to the American people and to governments around the world about his resolve to stay the course in Iraq. We have seen his polling drop in this country, whether the question is do you trust the president to handle Iraq, even on the bigger question of do you trust this president to handle the global war on terrorism.
The president's numbers are dropping. There's no question the last few weeks have been devastating in terms of if you look at the pictures on television. And that has affected the polling. And the president has one weapon at his disposal, the White House, the power of incumbency, to get national attention and international attention. The president felt he needed to use that weapon tonight.
BROWN: And we'll watch over the next couple of days and see if the country viewed it as an effective use of the pulpit.
John, thank you. It's been a long day -- John King, our senior White House correspondent.
You can argue that what the president says ought to matter anytime. But no one we think disputes the notion that it matters most at a time when the country is at war; 130,000 troops now occupy Iraq, some of whom expected to be going home by now. The president tonight said many will have to stay. Others may come.
For that dimension, we turn once again to our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, I don't think, given the buildup over the last couple of days or week, that what the president said in that regard was shocking.
MCINTYRE: No, we did hear from General Abizaid that he had asked for troops to stay in Iraq. He said he needed two mobile combat brigades. That sounded like 10,000 troops.
But tonight Pentagon sources are indicating that the final authorization that will come back from the Pentagon may be for up to 20,000 troops, virtually the entire 1st Armored Division that was supposed to start coming back or going back to its home base in Germany this month, will have to stay three more months. In addition, the Pentagon is working out plans to replace them sometime in July with additional troops that may have to leave and go early.
But Pentagon sources are indicating that, within a day or so, the Pentagon will sign off on a plan that will give General Abizaid about 20,000 or up to 20,000 more troops by keeping those troops in Iraq for three more months. And as you said, that was expected, but nevertheless not necessarily welcome news to those troops who have already put in a full year -- Aaron.
BROWN: Just one question on that before we move on to other matters. When you talk about replacing the troops, not keeping them there, but bringing new troops in, where do they come from? Are those reserve units? Is it a mixture of reserve units and active duty units? Do we know which units they will be?
MCINTYRE: We don't know which units. What don't know exactly where they're from. When you ask at the Pentagon, they say, we don't have that answer yet. We haven't worked it out, although they may be working it out now.
What we hear most often is perhaps the 3rd Infantry Division, which has been reorganized under the Army's transformation plan into new maneuver brigades, they're supposed to go back to Iraq anyway. They could go a little early. Another thing we have heard is there is another what is called a Striker Brigade out in Fort Lewis, Washington. They could possibly be deployed a little earlier. But the Pentagon insists those decisions have not yet been made.
BROWN: Now, the other thing you mentioned during "The Whip" is the bodies of four people found in Iraq today. So tell us what you can about that, what is known about at this point.
MCINTYRE: Well, today, we learned from the State Department that four bodies had been recovered from shallow graves west of Baghdad, right near the location where a U.S. fuel convoy was attacked on Friday. It was in this incident that resulted in seven American contractors being reported missing and two U.S. soldiers as well.
Because the bodies were found near this -- the site of this attack, it is feared they might be some of those missing contractors. The families of the contractors -- of these contractors have been notified, but they've also been told there has been no identification made of the bodies. The only person we know of from that incident is Thomas Hamill, the truck driver who was seen on the Australian broadcasting video as he was taken away. His fate, although we know he was taken by the kidnappers, we don't know his fate today. The demands and the deadlines for him have passed and we haven't heard anything.
BROWN: All right, Jamie, thank you -- Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon. A busy night.
The fate of the contractors that Jamie just referred to in Iraq constitutes one of the more moving parts of the story, moving, I guess in both senses of the term. There is also the standoff with Muqtada al-Sadr and his followers in Najaf, the cease-fire in Fallujah, which looks anything tonight but a cease-fire. So there is a lot going on to report out of Iraq itself.
Here is CNN's Jim Clancy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice shot.
CLANCY (voice-over): You didn't need a flashlight to see the state of Fallujah's nominal cease-fire. U.S. Marines fighting with the coalition insist they're only responding when they come under fire themselves and they have the casualties to prove they are coming under fire.
While negotiations proceed at a painful pace, Marines found stockpiles of arms and ammunition in searches of areas under their control. A coalition spokesman charges Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a wanted terrorist, may be among those inside the besieged city.
DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: We believe that Fallujah right now is a hotbed for foreign fighters who are in Iraq in which we include Zarqawi.
CLANCY: A U.S. helicopter was shot down near the town Tuesday. Insurgents said the Sikorsky was hit with a rocket-propelled grenade. One U.S. Marines who helped rescue the crew was killed by mortar fire nearby.
More than 40 hostages from a dozen nations continue to appear tired and shaken in videotapes warning coalition members to withdraw their troops. Four Italians were shown Tuesday. False reports that three Japanese civilians would be freed only added to the anguish of families.
Some, like this U.S. truck driver, have been threatened with death. France, the Czech Republic, Portugal and other nations called on their citizens to quit the country due to the hostage taking.
U.S. soldiers rested an aide to radical Shia leader Muqtada al- Sadr through a crowd of journalists and Iraqis as he was about to meet tribal leaders at a Baghdad hotel. Seven hours later he was declared not a threat to security, issued an apology, and released.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CLANCY: But the coalition ratcheted up pressure on his boss, Muqtada al-Sadr. Today, troops in force are around the holy city of Najaf. They vowed to arrest him and disarm his militia -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jim, thank you -- Jim Clancy in Baghdad this morning, their time; 9/11 hearings are the other major story of the day.
Today was a virtual cavalcade of top law enforcement officials past and present. Their appearance was preceded by a stinging preliminary report from the staff of the commission blaming the FBI for dropping the ball, essentially. But in the testimony that followed, there was finger-pointing from virtually all quarters. Reporting the story tonight, CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Amid accusations terrorism was not one of his priorities before the September 11 attacks Attorney General John Ashcroft forcefully rebutted his critics. Among them, then acting FBI Director Thomas Pickard who told the commission Ashcroft did not want to hear about terrorism.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I care greatly about the safety and security of the American people and was very interested in terrorism and specifically interrogated him about threats to the American people.
ARENA: Ashcroft blamed missed intelligence opportunities on a legal law that used to separate criminal investigators from intelligence agents.
ASHCROFT: Government erected this wall. Government buttressed this wall and before September 11 government was blinded by this wall.
ARENA: The commission members laid much of the blame on the FBI and its inability to adequately respond to the growing terror threat.
TOM KEAN (R), 9/11 COMMISSION CHAIRMAN: I read a staff statement as an indictment of the FBI for over a long period of time. You know and I read things like that 66 percent of your analysts weren't qualified, that you didn't have the translators necessary to do the job.
ARENA: Pickard, who was running the FBI at the time, admitted that he only found out after the September 11 attacks about vital intelligence, including the arrest of accused terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui and he could not explain why several key FBI field agents were not aware of increased terror chatter in the summer of 2001.
THOMAS J. PICKARD, FMR. FBI ACTING DIRECTOR: I don't understand why they didn't hear it. I spoke to each of them individually, as I said, and in addition I had the communications out to them. I don't know what more I could have done.
ARENA: Questions persist about whether the FBI is up to the job of collecting domestic intelligence and commissioners are considering whether to endorse a separate agency to do the job.
(on camera): On Wednesday, Director Robert Mueller and CIA Director George Tenet are expected to make a case against such a change.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll give you a much longer list of what was said at the 9/11 hearings later in the program. Plus, Iraq and the president's news conference, all part of the discussion with a roundtable of journalists which is coming up next.
Then later, on the campaign trail with John Kerry. What's he got to say about Iraq? What solutions does he have?
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back now to the president's news conference earlier tonight.
The backdrop for this prime-time appearance was challenging to say the least, a couple of very bloody and difficult weeks in Iraq and here at home, some bruising testimony at the 9/11 hearings.
Joining us from Washington, CNN's Judy Woodruff, who anchors "INSIDE POLITICS." Also with us tonight, Jonah Goldberg, a contributing editor of "The National Review" and a nationally syndicated columnist, and John Harwood, who writes about politics for "The Wall Street Journal."
Jonah, let me start with you.
If you agree with the premise here that there is some bleeding going on politically for the president, did the president stem the bleeding tonight?
JONAH GOLDBERG, "THE NATIONAL REVIEW": It may be too soon to tell. I think what he definitely did do is what he needed to do, which is go on the offensive.
I think, in many ways, they're waiting for a lull in Iraq. They're waiting for some good news in Iraq. They're waiting for the opportunity just to get a word in edgewise and go on the offensive rather than sort of hunkering down. And I think his opening statement was successful on that front. I think most of the Q&A was successful on that front.
And it just -- it was such a busy news day, it will be interesting to see whether the tide really does turn.
BROWN: John, how do you write the story tomorrow, assuming you will write the story tomorrow? What is the lead that you heard in it?
JOHN HARWOOD, POLITICAL EDITOR, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, I think, Aaron, that President Bush was at his most effective in persuading the American people that he acted in Iraq out of the conviction that this will make Americans safer, make the -- change the map of the Middle East and ultimately reduce the threat of terrorism.
The question is whether or not Americans are going to find that conviction credible over time. They're seeing on their television screens every day evidence of how it is going. They're going to measure the president's statements tonight that we're making progress against what they see on television and come to a conclusion over the next several months.
BROWN: Judy, what was new in it? What hadn't we heard from the president before, anything?
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I guess, you know, after, what, five tries from reporters' different phrasings, they tried to get him to say whether he had done anything wrong, whether he had anything to apologize for, it is very clear this president feels he does not have anything to apologize for. We did hear him, as John King reported, say that he is sure he made mistakes, but at this point he doesn't know what they are.
Aaron, I really do believe that what John just said is critical for President Bush. He is hanging the entire war in Iraq on persuading the American people that this is going to make the United States safer from terrorism. And in the last CNN/"Time" poll that came out just a few days ago, the percentage of people who believe that Iraq -- the war has made this country safer is down to 40 percent. That's a 10 percent drop over the last year.
I'm not one to dwell on polls, but this is something that has got to be of concern to the White House. And I don't think -- we heard the president say it over and over again tonight. The question is, is it getting through?
BROWN: Jonah, let me ask you about that, because, in some ways, you could make the argument that he has been saying this for the better part of two years, or a year and a half, the year that the war has been going, the six-month buildup to the war itself. Doesn't it say something about the politics of this all that he is still having to sell the basic premise?
GOLDBERG: Well, I think in part because he's been dealt a bad hand where the facts on the ground keep breaking in ways that aren't helpful for him, including the weapons of mass -- from the weapons of mass destruction issue on. This 9/11 Commission is a bad backdrop to have the stuff going on in Iraq.
BROWN: Yes.
GOLDBERG: I think this point that Judy brought up about the reporters continually asking, have you made any mistakes, have you made any mistakes, I think the White House has gotten itself into a terrible situation strategically by saying that they did absolutely nothing wrong pre-9/11, which is a silly position to take, because, by definition, anytime terrorists knock over the World Trade Centers, somebody did something wrong.
And, besides, this White House has been trying to run on leadership post-9/11. And those are two very different things. And they seemed to have gotten that confused. And it gets them stuck in these really silly arguments about whether he made mistakes or not prior to 9/11. They should have just gotten off of it a long time ago.
BROWN: John, we're down to the last 40 seconds or so. When all is said and done, do you believe that 9/11 and the president's handling of 9/11 is a political issue of great import or will it be Iraq?
HARWOOD: Well, his handling of 9/11 afterwards is going to be what he stakes his campaign on. I think of the two problems that he has, Iraq vs. what he did before 9/11, clearly, the latter is the preeminent issue for the president.
Most Americans are not inclined to blame President Bush or President Clinton, for that matter, for what happened on 9/11. But he's got to justify for the American people why we're there and why the cost -- why the benefits of being there exceed the costs.
BROWN: John, Jonah, Judy, good to have you all with us. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, it is an awfully busy night around here. One man who is not too interested it seems in making news right now, and there are reasons for it, John Kerry. CNN's Candy Crowley joins us to explain why.
And long before they hit your front porch, we'll have your morning papers, if you stay with us on NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The insurgency in Iraq is causing political fallout in the country. How it will ultimately factor into the presidential election this fall remains to be seen. We got into a bit of it just a few moments ago. For the presumptive Democratic candidate, John Kerry, one would think a week like this past one would be easy ammunition on the campaign trail. But it is not as simple as that.
Here is CNN's candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY (voice-over): It has the sound of a news vacuum.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People are beginning to understand that the American economy is not working for them. They're working for the economy.
CROWLEY: John Kerry involved this week in a series of campus rallies and high end fund-raisers rarely brings up Iraq. When asked he says the usual.
KERRY: I would go to the United Nations directly and challenge the world to become involved in something that the world actually has a legitimate interest in, the outcome of what happens in Iraq.
CROWLEY: Camp Kerry is not interested in making news right now, not concerned with pressing the president on Iraq. The course of events has provided all the news and pressure John Kerry could ask for. Still, there are Democratic complaints which Republicans are happy to fuel that Kerry needs to lay out a specific plan for Iraq. Pushed on the subject, Kerry pushed back.
Specifics, stay with the mission, send more troops if needed, bring in the U. N. , ask NATO to serve under U.S. command, now to put the shoe on another foot.
KERRY: We know we are committed to guaranteeing that there is not a failed state that contributes in worse ways to a war on terror but this president owes Americans a specific explanation of exactly how we are going to achieve that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: By day's end, the Bush-Cheney team responded to the usual stuff from Kerry with the usual reaction, which was to remind people that Kerry in fact voted for the war resolution and later voted against sustaining the war with the supplemental appropriations bill -- Aaron.
BROWN: Candy, thank you.
Still ahead on the program tonight, the Iraq situation, the challenges for the administration, how it must or might handle them. Fareed Zakaria joins us.
And later, the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, we talked with him this morning in Houston.
Much more to go. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back to Iraq now, and what the president said earlier tonight. Going into the news conference, his job was to rebut his critics on Iraq, and to explain what comes next.
The president warned the mission may become more difficult before it is over. Said the June 30 deadline is firm. We are joined tonight by Fareed Zakaria "Newsweek's" International Editor, and recently the author of "The Future of Freedom," which is out in paperback now. We are very glad to have you with us tonight. We don't see you nearly often enough.
Let's talk about what we have seen in Iraq over the last couple of weeks. And the dangers that what is reasonably large -- I mean it is not as small as I think the administration wanted people to believe -- could become uncontrollable.
FAREED ZAKARIA, AUTHOR, THE FUTURE OF FREEDOM: The real danger Aaron, is not the violence per say. The violence is bad, but it can be dealt with. The problem is that in dealing with the violence, you are generating anti-Americanism.
You are generating a national mood which is increasingly viewing the United States as the problem, the occupier, the foreigner. That's a dangerous spiral to get into when you are a foreigner.
BROWN: So when the President said tonight that he has authorized the military to use decisive force, and if this is what the Iraqis want, you would quarrel with the last part of that? That this is what the Iraqis want?
ZAKARIA: Well if you look at any guerrilla warfare, any insurgency, any of these kinds of things that have taken place in history, the guerrilla, the insurgent wants you to hit back hard. They want you to use massive military power, because it turns off the local population.
And think about what has happened in Fallujah. The killed four of our guys. We've killed 600 of theirs. How do you think the Iraqis feel about that? Even if they don't like Saddam Hussein or -- there is this sense of being pummeled by this very powerful form.
BROWN: But in a place like Fallujah, what was the alternative to going in there and -- to use their term -- pacifying it?
ZAKARIA: I think the key question you have to ask is do you know who you are hitting? If you are getting the people, even in the precinct, even in a city block, who actually did it, I would say fine. But it is obvious we have no idea who we are hitting. Because first of all we have basically used massive retaliation against huge swats of the city.
And secondly, what is our demand? We are saying would the guys who did this please come forward, and then we will stop. Which means we actually don't know whether we have hit these people. So we are using indiscriminative warfare. And all I am saying is, I don't mind it militarily in the sense that I understand the satisfaction that you do something. Politically, you are winning the battle, but you are losing the war.
BROWN: I think a lot of people when they look, a lot of people a whole lot smarter than I am, when they look at the situation there, say that unless this is somehow internationalized, it's doomed in some respect. Is it to late for that? Have to many bridges been burned for that?
ZAKARIA: A lot of bridges have burned. I think if you go back a year when the war was over, France and Germany come forward and say we want to help, just put it under U.N. auspices, NATO comes forward and says that, what we never realized was that -- and I desire to say this -- that we would have a legitimacy problem in Iraq.
We are the United States of America. We come with all the baggage that that means in the sense that we are very powerful. We are seen as propping up Arab dictators. WE are seen as being very pro-Israel.
Right or wrong, I am saying we had an image problem. And we didn't work hard enough to say, how do we get the legitimacy to be able to stay and do all the good things that the President wants to do. Now it will still help. June 30 comes; we need two forms of legitimacy. International is not the only one. The more important one is Domestic.
BROWN: Domestic in Iraq?
ZAKARIA: Domestic with Iraq. Actually I would say three things actually. You need domestic in Iraq. The Iraqi people, the Iraqi real political leaders, not exiles from London. International and the U.N. And you need domestic legitimacy at home in the states.
One of the things the President hasn't done enough is to reach out to the other party. And try to make this a bipartisan endeavor. I think that if you look the President talks about being a war president. Franklin Roosevelt appointed as his Secretary of War, a Republican. As his two assistant Secretaries of War, Republicans.
Harry Truman presents the Marshall plan, and appoints a Republican, Paul Hoffman (ph), to run it. I think if you want to get the other party invested in the success of your enterprise, we need to do that kind of bipartisanship.
BROWN: Just in 20 seconds or so, what is the most important thing you will look for in the next month?
ZAKARIA: Absolutely crucial. Can we produce a credible legitimate Iraqi government to whom we can hand over control? The date is irrelevant. If we can create a real government that isn't viewed as a puppet, that will be the biggest mark of progress yet.
BROWN: Very nice to see you. Come back again when you can.
ZAKARIA: Nice to see you. Thank you Sir.
BROWN: Thank you Fareed Zakaria. Next on NEWSNIGHT, we will talk with the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. Everything from Iraq to terrorism, to the Palestinian issue. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the complicated world of the Middle East, perhaps no Arab country is more important than Egypt. It is one of just two countries that have made peace with Israel. By its sheer size, it wields enormous influence in the region, and is a necessary partner to any U.S. effort to bring peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It is also a complicated relationship. We saw a poll yesterday that showed only 6 percent of Egyptians have a favorable view of America.
Whether it is Israel and Palestine, whether it is the war in Iraq or the broader war on terror, Egypt is an important player, or can be. With that as the backdrop and one day after he met with the president in Texas, I talked this morning in Houston with the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: It seems pretty certain that the Israelis will unilaterally pull out of Gaza. What concerns do you have about that? What problems does it create for you?
HOSNI MUBARAK, PRESIDENT, EGYPT: It's not a problem to create for us, but I would like to point out something. Any unilateral withdrawal I think is much far better to me (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the Palestinians, so as not to have much more problems.
Secondly, the withdrawal should be connected with the road map. Third point, that any withdrawal should be as a step forward to draw from other places. This is a very important point.
And you know our position from the beginning, that withdrawal should be according to 1967 borders.
BROWN: Is there a concern that an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza will create a security vacuum that will be filled by the most radical elements of Palestinian society?
MUBARAK: Well, I'm trying to tell you, before the withdrawal, this should be discussed with the Palestinians, so that the Palestinians could prepare themselves for their police to put a plan how to secure their area, how to prevent any more escalation. Otherwise, the situation will be much more complicated.
BROWN: The Israelis, as you know, have concerns about the smuggling of arms, coming in into Gaza. On your side of the border, are you prepared to do more in an effort to provide the Israelis with some assurance.
MUBARAK: Look, my friend, let us be very frank. We are doing the maximum effort, we'll never let that happen. But it could happen on any border in the world. We cannot secure border 100 percent. But border -- the smuggling could come from other places. Not only from the Egyptian borders. We have forces there to maintain any kind of smuggling, but this could happen anywhere. From the sea, from the other side. It is not a problem.
BROWN: How does Iraq play into all of this? Is Iraq a separate problem, or is it somehow connected here?
MUBARAK: Now, it shows that they are both connected with each other. If you want to solve the problem in Iraq, you cannot neglect the Israeli issue. My personal proposal is to train the police -- Iraqi police. I heard Abizaid say that the police now doesn't want to fight the Iraqis, the Iraqi police. And I think the best way, from my point of view, that the well trained Iraqi police should take over independently, and other forces should leave the populated area completely. Because if I'm working with you, with the other forces, Iraqi forces and other, foreign, forces, I think the people will condemn them both. That's why the Arab forces, the Iraqi forces will not act very well.
BROWN: Let's make sure I understand that. What you would propose is for the Americans and the British and the others to pull back to their bases and let the Iraqi police force and the Iraqi civil defense forces do the work of maintaining security in the country?
MUBARAK: I think there is no other way else (ph). The foreign forces to withdraw outside the populated area, and these police, who are being well trained and we told them, we are ready to train police for them. Let them take the responsibility on their own, without any participation from any other force.
BROWN: Do you believe that, as the president seems to, that -- that -- that when people feel that they're not participants in government, that that radicalizes them, and that helps create the problem of extremism?
MUBARAK: I don't think this is the big problem. The main problem is the feeling of injustice, and I (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I'm living in the area, I know very well the feeling of injustice is a terrible thing. We have said several times when we had terrorism in the beginning of the '90s, I said we should make an international conference to deal with the problem of terrorism, because it's going to spread all over the world, and the whole countries were going to suffer. Nobody listened. And those terroristic groups were committing crimes, were killing people in their countries, escaped (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and given asylum in some countries. That's one of the biggest mistakes committed by the international community.
And if this is not very well cured in the international conference, and there should be a resolution, binding all the countries of the world, believe me, terrorism will spread more and more.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. We talked with him this morning in Houston, Texas.
Still ahead on the program, the 9/11 commission hearings as they played out today, finger pointing and all. A break first on CNN, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we reported earlier, it was another day of finger pointing at today's 9/11 hearing. The 10th hearing to be held in public. This time the justice department in the hot seat.
While the Condoleezza Rice hearing last week received an enormous amount of attention, in many way the questions and answers today were more telling about where two administrations were on terrorism before the tragedy of 9/11. Here's a longer look at today's testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUIS FREEH, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: Terrorism was not discussed. This was not an issue that the candidates talked about. That the American people talked about during that period. And this was right after the attack on the U.S.S. Cole.
For many many years, a lack of these resources, and maybe more importantly, a lack of legal authority prevented us from doing what was easily done after September 11th.
RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: So it was well known in the intelligence community that one of the potential areas, or the vices to be used by terrorists, which they had discussed, according to our intelligence information, was the use of airplanes. Either packed with explosives or otherwise. And suicide missions.
FREEH: That was part of the planning for those events, that is correct. September 11, had we had the right sources overseas, or in the United States, could have been prevented. We did not have those sources. We did not have that telephone call. WE didn't have that e- mail intercept that could have done the job.
You get that by having sources. And you get sources by good investigations. You also prevent terrorism in that regard.
JANET RENO, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: When I came into office, I learned that the FBI didn't know what it had. We found stuff in files here that the right-hand didn't know what the left hand was doing.
THOMAS PICKARD, FORMER ACTING FBI DIRECTOR: As I recall, during the period January to September 2001 the FBI received over 1,000 threats. Many of these threats had great specificity, and others were very general in nature.
All were taken seriously, but the volume was daunting. The increase in the chatter was by far the most serious, but it was also the most difficult to deal with. There was no specificity as to what, where, and when. We knew the who, but only that it was al-Qaeda.
COFER BLACK, FORMER DIRECTOR CIA COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: I tell you, I would start from the standpoint that when I started this job in 1999, I thought there was a good chance I was going to be sitting right here in front of you. And I was mentally prepared for it all along.
The enemy we are up against is one that I have been operating against since the early '90s. I know these guys. I know what they want to do, and how dedicated they are. And they were coming at us hard.
The bottom line here and I have to tell you, and I'll take part of the blame on this, I kind of failed my people despite doing everything I could. We didn't have enough people to do the job. And we didn't have enough money by magnitudes.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The simple fact of September 11 is this; we did not know an attack was coming because for nearly a decade, our government had blinded itself to it's enemies.
Our agents were isolated by government-imposed laws, handcuffed by government-imposed restrictions, and starved for basic information technology. The old national intelligence system in place on September 11 was destined to fail.
TIMOTHY ROEMER, 9/11 COMMISSION: I want to turn to page three of your testimony. And where you are talking about being aggressive, and doing something about Osama Bin Laden. You certainly think Osama Bin Laden is somewhere overseas, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know where he is.
ROEMER: You don't know where he is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't believe he is in the United States of America.
ROEMER: You don't believe he is in the United States, and you want to go get him. And you go to the national security adviser, the president, and you say let's find a way to get him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said that we should find and kill him. That should be the objective of our government.
BLACK: We are profoundly sorry. We did all that we could. We did our best.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The 9/11 hearings today. What an interesting mix of personalities there. Morning papers, let's take a break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Even the Egyptian president asked about morning papers. OK, he didn't. I made that up.
Time to check morning papers from around the country, and around the world. He did ask why I keep taking my glasses off though. The "International Herald Tribune" published by the "New York Times" in Paris leads pretty straight on the 9/11 hearings. Kind of interesting to see how the 9/11 hearings are headlined.
The 9/11 panel faults FBI and Ashcroft. Antiterrorism efforts found lacking. Attorney General blames previous policy.
I like the people who accept -- I not, this isn't about Mr. Ashcroft necessarily -- I like when people say, you know what? We didn't do it as well as we should have.
Also on the front page in Fallujah -- not that what I think matters -- Cease-fire; the battle still rages. Another Jeff Genellman (ph) story. Jeffrey Genellman (ph), writing for the "New York Times." He has done unbelievably good work as the "Times" says I think.
Christian Science Monitor back with us. FBI and 9/11: The Picture Fills In. Commission pieces together crucial moves and mistakes, with a look ahead to reforms. I think that is a very smart headline. There's no sort of blame cast there, it's just kind of straight and lays it out. Now, the "Washington Times." A couple of good ones here. Bush -- that would be President Bush, they got this out pretty quickly -- Bush decried power grab in Iraq. Promises to meet June 30 deadline. President Bush last night vowed to meet the June 30 deadline to transfer power to Iraqis.
Anyway, that is a straight ahead lead by the "Washington Times." Their 9/11 lead a little less so. Ashcroft slams intelligence failures under Clinton, pictures of Attorney General Ashcroft, Former Attorney General Reno, and Louis Freeh, Former Head of the FBI in the "Washington Times."
"Philadelphia Inquirer," also an early deadline, got it out. Unwavering under fire. President vows to finish work of the fallen. Bush rejects analogy of Vietnam. Says few in Iraq back uprising. That kind of a contentious point.
How are we doing on time Jenny? Thank you. The -- good to have the "Des Moines Register" with us. We haven't had them I think since the political season, so welcome back. Urgency unrelenting is the headline that will land on the doorsteps in Des Moines, and much of Iowa tomorrow morning. Panel says FBI goofed on attacks. That's the first time I have seen goofed in a headline. But I like that because it is a word I use.
The "Detroit News," FBI, CIA drop ball. Terror panel says this really is the lead on this. I mean the Commission pretty clearly said the FBI and the CIA didn't do what it was supposed to do. We can then ask why and who and all that. But that is the pretty straight ahead lead. Commission charges agency's inertia failed to uncover September 11 plot. And it's Detroit, so there are a few car stories in there as well.
Let's turn to the "Dallas Morning News." Attorney General faults Clinton, or the A.G. faults Clinton is their lead. And the "Chicago Sun Times," we haven't done their headline in a while. Bush, U.S. failure unthinkable in Iraq. President defends ousting Saddam Links invasion to war on terror. The weather tomorrow in Chicago is terrific, reheating. Thank you for that. I missed that, 63 degrees in Chicago tomorrow.
Here's Bill Hemmer with a look at what is coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks. Tomorrow here on "AMERICAN MORNING," we will talk to a Kennedy family confident, Edward Klein. His new book is called "Farewell Jackie" detailing the final days of the former First Lady's life.
I'll also ask the author what struck him the most about how she lived her final six months. Hope to see you tomorrow morning, 7:00 a.m. Eastern Time here on AMERICAN MORNING -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you. Good to have you all with us late tonight. We will see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired April 13, 2004 - 22:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again, everyone.
Said the president tonight, "We are trying to change the world." No easy task is that, as the last few weeks have proven. The president, who does not like formal news conferences, went before reporters tonight determined to make the case for Iraq again.
Things are tough there, he acknowledged, but they are getting better. If more troops are needed, he said, they will be sent. The transfer of sovereignty will take place on schedule. It must. Those were the easy things in many respects. The harder part is convincing the world to join. And that, too is part of the story tonight.
We talked, as Larry mentioned, earlier today with the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak. And we'll have that coming up later.
Like the news conference itself, Iraq and 9/11 dominate the program tonight and begin "The Whip," a very busy night for our senior White House correspondent, John King.
So, John, start us out with a headline.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Iraq and the war on terrorism dominated the hour-long new conference. The president rejected critics who say Iraq has become his Vietnam. He said it's been a tough few weeks in Iraq, but he also said he did not think that those tough few weeks would cost him his job come November -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. We'll come to you at the top.
Next to the Pentagon and CNN's Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, a headline.
JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN MILITARY AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, as you know, the president said if they need more troops in Iraq he'll send them. But, as it turns out, they do need more troops and they'll be staying instead of going. Also, four bodies found in Baghdad today may be those of some missing American contractors -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jamie, we'll to that, too, quite quickly.
On to Iraq itself, another tense and difficult day after many tense and difficult days.
Jim Clancy has the duty tonight.
Jim, a headline.
JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two U.S. Marines die, eight more are wounded despite a cease-fire in Fallujah. Plus, as dawn comes here Wednesday morning in Iraq, the question is, how many Westerners will disappear today, as the hostage crisis aims to derail coalition support?
BROWN: Jim, thank you.
And all of this is playing out against a political backdrop. That goes almost without saying, almost.
CNN's Candy Crowley with us tonight.
So, Candy, the political headline from you.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SR. POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: The political headline is that John Kerry has been noticeably low-key in his responses to the 9/11 Commission and to Iraq. Why? Well, sometimes in life as in politics less can be more.
BROWN: Candy, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up on the program tonight, the 9/11 Commission had one of its most informative days to date, hearing from the heads of the Justice Department and the FBI of two administrations, our front line troops against terrorism. And we'll have that.
Is there movement in the long-stalled Israeli-Palestinian peace process? An exclusive interview with the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, who was fresh from the president's ranch in Texas.
And we'll take a look at the bulldog editions of newspapers around the country and around the world. Morning papers will wrap it all up. All that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin tonight with President Bush's moment before the news media and the country, as much an opportunity to make a strong statement as it was to answer tough questions. It was a venue and a format rarely used by the president. Clearly the White House considers the moment important enough to break with routine, coming as it does with Iraq at a turning point and the administration under growing certainty over 9/11.
So we begin with our senior White House correspondent, John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): Iraq dominated the hour-long event. And as the president rebutted his critics and vowed to stay the course, he also predicted what called a tough series of weeks for the American people would not cost him his job come November. GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Look, nobody likes to see dead people on their television screens. I don't. It is a tough time for the American people to see that. It is gut- wrenching.
KING: Mr. Bush met with reporters in the East Room of the White House, as the Pentagon mulled adding 20,000 troops to deal with the violent insurgency.
BUSH: If additional forces are needed, I will send them. If additional resources are needed, we will provide them.
KING: The president said it is critical to hold fast to a June 30 deadline to transfer sovereignty to a new Iraqi government, even though there is no clear plan yet as to what that new government will look like.
BUSH: As a proud and independent people, Iraqis do not support an indefinite occupation and neither does America. We're not an imperial power.
KING: But Mr. Bush made clear a significant number of U.S. troops would remain in Iraq well past the transfer of sovereignty and in doing so he took sharp issue with critics who call Iraq this president's Vietnam.
BUSH: I think the analogy is false. I also happen to think that analogy is -- sends the wrong message to our troops and sends the wrong message to the enemy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: Now, Mr. Bush passed up an opportunity to join his former counterterrorism chief Richard Clarke in offering an apology to the families of 9/11 victims. Mr. Bush says he still gets -- quote -- "sick" when he thinks about that day, but he said also that Osama bin Laden is responsible for the attacks.
And, Aaron, the president was asked if he had made any mistakes, he said he was sure that he has, but he could not name one, although he did say, looking back at the events and the government's actions pre-9/11, that it was clear that the government, this country, the United States, was not on a war footing. The president said, the enemy was at war with us. The United States should have been on that war footing -- Aaron.
BROWN: Which I think is almost literally exactly what Condoleezza Rice said last week. Other than that, did the president on 9/11 break any new ground today?
KING: He did not. He held fast when asked about that August 6 briefing he received just a little more than a month before the attacks. There was an inkling he said of a hijacking. The president was asked did he specifically do anything about that?
There could be 100, 200 Americans on an airplane that could be hijacked. He asked did not answer the question directly when asked, set aside the idea that no one thought they would fly planes into buildings. What about the possibility they might hijack one? He was asked did he do anything to take that into account. He did not answer the question.
BROWN: Now just step back from it all. The fact that the president, who does not -- I think this has only been what, the 10th news conference of his administration, maybe less than that, what does it say that they felt that the White House or the president felt that they had to come out in prime time and do this tonight?
KING: It is certainly a reflection of the politics of this country and the global politics of Iraq right now, that this president needed to come out and make a strong statement to the American people and to governments around the world about his resolve to stay the course in Iraq. We have seen his polling drop in this country, whether the question is do you trust the president to handle Iraq, even on the bigger question of do you trust this president to handle the global war on terrorism.
The president's numbers are dropping. There's no question the last few weeks have been devastating in terms of if you look at the pictures on television. And that has affected the polling. And the president has one weapon at his disposal, the White House, the power of incumbency, to get national attention and international attention. The president felt he needed to use that weapon tonight.
BROWN: And we'll watch over the next couple of days and see if the country viewed it as an effective use of the pulpit.
John, thank you. It's been a long day -- John King, our senior White House correspondent.
You can argue that what the president says ought to matter anytime. But no one we think disputes the notion that it matters most at a time when the country is at war; 130,000 troops now occupy Iraq, some of whom expected to be going home by now. The president tonight said many will have to stay. Others may come.
For that dimension, we turn once again to our senior Pentagon correspondent, Jamie McIntyre.
Jamie, I don't think, given the buildup over the last couple of days or week, that what the president said in that regard was shocking.
MCINTYRE: No, we did hear from General Abizaid that he had asked for troops to stay in Iraq. He said he needed two mobile combat brigades. That sounded like 10,000 troops.
But tonight Pentagon sources are indicating that the final authorization that will come back from the Pentagon may be for up to 20,000 troops, virtually the entire 1st Armored Division that was supposed to start coming back or going back to its home base in Germany this month, will have to stay three more months. In addition, the Pentagon is working out plans to replace them sometime in July with additional troops that may have to leave and go early.
But Pentagon sources are indicating that, within a day or so, the Pentagon will sign off on a plan that will give General Abizaid about 20,000 or up to 20,000 more troops by keeping those troops in Iraq for three more months. And as you said, that was expected, but nevertheless not necessarily welcome news to those troops who have already put in a full year -- Aaron.
BROWN: Just one question on that before we move on to other matters. When you talk about replacing the troops, not keeping them there, but bringing new troops in, where do they come from? Are those reserve units? Is it a mixture of reserve units and active duty units? Do we know which units they will be?
MCINTYRE: We don't know which units. What don't know exactly where they're from. When you ask at the Pentagon, they say, we don't have that answer yet. We haven't worked it out, although they may be working it out now.
What we hear most often is perhaps the 3rd Infantry Division, which has been reorganized under the Army's transformation plan into new maneuver brigades, they're supposed to go back to Iraq anyway. They could go a little early. Another thing we have heard is there is another what is called a Striker Brigade out in Fort Lewis, Washington. They could possibly be deployed a little earlier. But the Pentagon insists those decisions have not yet been made.
BROWN: Now, the other thing you mentioned during "The Whip" is the bodies of four people found in Iraq today. So tell us what you can about that, what is known about at this point.
MCINTYRE: Well, today, we learned from the State Department that four bodies had been recovered from shallow graves west of Baghdad, right near the location where a U.S. fuel convoy was attacked on Friday. It was in this incident that resulted in seven American contractors being reported missing and two U.S. soldiers as well.
Because the bodies were found near this -- the site of this attack, it is feared they might be some of those missing contractors. The families of the contractors -- of these contractors have been notified, but they've also been told there has been no identification made of the bodies. The only person we know of from that incident is Thomas Hamill, the truck driver who was seen on the Australian broadcasting video as he was taken away. His fate, although we know he was taken by the kidnappers, we don't know his fate today. The demands and the deadlines for him have passed and we haven't heard anything.
BROWN: All right, Jamie, thank you -- Jamie McIntyre over at the Pentagon. A busy night.
The fate of the contractors that Jamie just referred to in Iraq constitutes one of the more moving parts of the story, moving, I guess in both senses of the term. There is also the standoff with Muqtada al-Sadr and his followers in Najaf, the cease-fire in Fallujah, which looks anything tonight but a cease-fire. So there is a lot going on to report out of Iraq itself.
Here is CNN's Jim Clancy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nice shot.
CLANCY (voice-over): You didn't need a flashlight to see the state of Fallujah's nominal cease-fire. U.S. Marines fighting with the coalition insist they're only responding when they come under fire themselves and they have the casualties to prove they are coming under fire.
While negotiations proceed at a painful pace, Marines found stockpiles of arms and ammunition in searches of areas under their control. A coalition spokesman charges Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a wanted terrorist, may be among those inside the besieged city.
DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: We believe that Fallujah right now is a hotbed for foreign fighters who are in Iraq in which we include Zarqawi.
CLANCY: A U.S. helicopter was shot down near the town Tuesday. Insurgents said the Sikorsky was hit with a rocket-propelled grenade. One U.S. Marines who helped rescue the crew was killed by mortar fire nearby.
More than 40 hostages from a dozen nations continue to appear tired and shaken in videotapes warning coalition members to withdraw their troops. Four Italians were shown Tuesday. False reports that three Japanese civilians would be freed only added to the anguish of families.
Some, like this U.S. truck driver, have been threatened with death. France, the Czech Republic, Portugal and other nations called on their citizens to quit the country due to the hostage taking.
U.S. soldiers rested an aide to radical Shia leader Muqtada al- Sadr through a crowd of journalists and Iraqis as he was about to meet tribal leaders at a Baghdad hotel. Seven hours later he was declared not a threat to security, issued an apology, and released.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CLANCY: But the coalition ratcheted up pressure on his boss, Muqtada al-Sadr. Today, troops in force are around the holy city of Najaf. They vowed to arrest him and disarm his militia -- Aaron.
BROWN: Jim, thank you -- Jim Clancy in Baghdad this morning, their time; 9/11 hearings are the other major story of the day.
Today was a virtual cavalcade of top law enforcement officials past and present. Their appearance was preceded by a stinging preliminary report from the staff of the commission blaming the FBI for dropping the ball, essentially. But in the testimony that followed, there was finger-pointing from virtually all quarters. Reporting the story tonight, CNN's Kelli Arena.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Amid accusations terrorism was not one of his priorities before the September 11 attacks Attorney General John Ashcroft forcefully rebutted his critics. Among them, then acting FBI Director Thomas Pickard who told the commission Ashcroft did not want to hear about terrorism.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I care greatly about the safety and security of the American people and was very interested in terrorism and specifically interrogated him about threats to the American people.
ARENA: Ashcroft blamed missed intelligence opportunities on a legal law that used to separate criminal investigators from intelligence agents.
ASHCROFT: Government erected this wall. Government buttressed this wall and before September 11 government was blinded by this wall.
ARENA: The commission members laid much of the blame on the FBI and its inability to adequately respond to the growing terror threat.
TOM KEAN (R), 9/11 COMMISSION CHAIRMAN: I read a staff statement as an indictment of the FBI for over a long period of time. You know and I read things like that 66 percent of your analysts weren't qualified, that you didn't have the translators necessary to do the job.
ARENA: Pickard, who was running the FBI at the time, admitted that he only found out after the September 11 attacks about vital intelligence, including the arrest of accused terrorist Zacarias Moussaoui and he could not explain why several key FBI field agents were not aware of increased terror chatter in the summer of 2001.
THOMAS J. PICKARD, FMR. FBI ACTING DIRECTOR: I don't understand why they didn't hear it. I spoke to each of them individually, as I said, and in addition I had the communications out to them. I don't know what more I could have done.
ARENA: Questions persist about whether the FBI is up to the job of collecting domestic intelligence and commissioners are considering whether to endorse a separate agency to do the job.
(on camera): On Wednesday, Director Robert Mueller and CIA Director George Tenet are expected to make a case against such a change.
Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: We'll give you a much longer list of what was said at the 9/11 hearings later in the program. Plus, Iraq and the president's news conference, all part of the discussion with a roundtable of journalists which is coming up next.
Then later, on the campaign trail with John Kerry. What's he got to say about Iraq? What solutions does he have?
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back now to the president's news conference earlier tonight.
The backdrop for this prime-time appearance was challenging to say the least, a couple of very bloody and difficult weeks in Iraq and here at home, some bruising testimony at the 9/11 hearings.
Joining us from Washington, CNN's Judy Woodruff, who anchors "INSIDE POLITICS." Also with us tonight, Jonah Goldberg, a contributing editor of "The National Review" and a nationally syndicated columnist, and John Harwood, who writes about politics for "The Wall Street Journal."
Jonah, let me start with you.
If you agree with the premise here that there is some bleeding going on politically for the president, did the president stem the bleeding tonight?
JONAH GOLDBERG, "THE NATIONAL REVIEW": It may be too soon to tell. I think what he definitely did do is what he needed to do, which is go on the offensive.
I think, in many ways, they're waiting for a lull in Iraq. They're waiting for some good news in Iraq. They're waiting for the opportunity just to get a word in edgewise and go on the offensive rather than sort of hunkering down. And I think his opening statement was successful on that front. I think most of the Q&A was successful on that front.
And it just -- it was such a busy news day, it will be interesting to see whether the tide really does turn.
BROWN: John, how do you write the story tomorrow, assuming you will write the story tomorrow? What is the lead that you heard in it?
JOHN HARWOOD, POLITICAL EDITOR, "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL": Well, I think, Aaron, that President Bush was at his most effective in persuading the American people that he acted in Iraq out of the conviction that this will make Americans safer, make the -- change the map of the Middle East and ultimately reduce the threat of terrorism.
The question is whether or not Americans are going to find that conviction credible over time. They're seeing on their television screens every day evidence of how it is going. They're going to measure the president's statements tonight that we're making progress against what they see on television and come to a conclusion over the next several months.
BROWN: Judy, what was new in it? What hadn't we heard from the president before, anything?
JUDY WOODRUFF, CNN ANCHOR: Well, I guess, you know, after, what, five tries from reporters' different phrasings, they tried to get him to say whether he had done anything wrong, whether he had anything to apologize for, it is very clear this president feels he does not have anything to apologize for. We did hear him, as John King reported, say that he is sure he made mistakes, but at this point he doesn't know what they are.
Aaron, I really do believe that what John just said is critical for President Bush. He is hanging the entire war in Iraq on persuading the American people that this is going to make the United States safer from terrorism. And in the last CNN/"Time" poll that came out just a few days ago, the percentage of people who believe that Iraq -- the war has made this country safer is down to 40 percent. That's a 10 percent drop over the last year.
I'm not one to dwell on polls, but this is something that has got to be of concern to the White House. And I don't think -- we heard the president say it over and over again tonight. The question is, is it getting through?
BROWN: Jonah, let me ask you about that, because, in some ways, you could make the argument that he has been saying this for the better part of two years, or a year and a half, the year that the war has been going, the six-month buildup to the war itself. Doesn't it say something about the politics of this all that he is still having to sell the basic premise?
GOLDBERG: Well, I think in part because he's been dealt a bad hand where the facts on the ground keep breaking in ways that aren't helpful for him, including the weapons of mass -- from the weapons of mass destruction issue on. This 9/11 Commission is a bad backdrop to have the stuff going on in Iraq.
BROWN: Yes.
GOLDBERG: I think this point that Judy brought up about the reporters continually asking, have you made any mistakes, have you made any mistakes, I think the White House has gotten itself into a terrible situation strategically by saying that they did absolutely nothing wrong pre-9/11, which is a silly position to take, because, by definition, anytime terrorists knock over the World Trade Centers, somebody did something wrong.
And, besides, this White House has been trying to run on leadership post-9/11. And those are two very different things. And they seemed to have gotten that confused. And it gets them stuck in these really silly arguments about whether he made mistakes or not prior to 9/11. They should have just gotten off of it a long time ago.
BROWN: John, we're down to the last 40 seconds or so. When all is said and done, do you believe that 9/11 and the president's handling of 9/11 is a political issue of great import or will it be Iraq?
HARWOOD: Well, his handling of 9/11 afterwards is going to be what he stakes his campaign on. I think of the two problems that he has, Iraq vs. what he did before 9/11, clearly, the latter is the preeminent issue for the president.
Most Americans are not inclined to blame President Bush or President Clinton, for that matter, for what happened on 9/11. But he's got to justify for the American people why we're there and why the cost -- why the benefits of being there exceed the costs.
BROWN: John, Jonah, Judy, good to have you all with us. Thank you very much. Thank you.
Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, it is an awfully busy night around here. One man who is not too interested it seems in making news right now, and there are reasons for it, John Kerry. CNN's Candy Crowley joins us to explain why.
And long before they hit your front porch, we'll have your morning papers, if you stay with us on NEWSNIGHT from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The insurgency in Iraq is causing political fallout in the country. How it will ultimately factor into the presidential election this fall remains to be seen. We got into a bit of it just a few moments ago. For the presumptive Democratic candidate, John Kerry, one would think a week like this past one would be easy ammunition on the campaign trail. But it is not as simple as that.
Here is CNN's candy Crowley.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY (voice-over): It has the sound of a news vacuum.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: People are beginning to understand that the American economy is not working for them. They're working for the economy.
CROWLEY: John Kerry involved this week in a series of campus rallies and high end fund-raisers rarely brings up Iraq. When asked he says the usual.
KERRY: I would go to the United Nations directly and challenge the world to become involved in something that the world actually has a legitimate interest in, the outcome of what happens in Iraq.
CROWLEY: Camp Kerry is not interested in making news right now, not concerned with pressing the president on Iraq. The course of events has provided all the news and pressure John Kerry could ask for. Still, there are Democratic complaints which Republicans are happy to fuel that Kerry needs to lay out a specific plan for Iraq. Pushed on the subject, Kerry pushed back.
Specifics, stay with the mission, send more troops if needed, bring in the U. N. , ask NATO to serve under U.S. command, now to put the shoe on another foot.
KERRY: We know we are committed to guaranteeing that there is not a failed state that contributes in worse ways to a war on terror but this president owes Americans a specific explanation of exactly how we are going to achieve that.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CROWLEY: By day's end, the Bush-Cheney team responded to the usual stuff from Kerry with the usual reaction, which was to remind people that Kerry in fact voted for the war resolution and later voted against sustaining the war with the supplemental appropriations bill -- Aaron.
BROWN: Candy, thank you.
Still ahead on the program tonight, the Iraq situation, the challenges for the administration, how it must or might handle them. Fareed Zakaria joins us.
And later, the Egyptian president, Hosni Mubarak, we talked with him this morning in Houston.
Much more to go. This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Back to Iraq now, and what the president said earlier tonight. Going into the news conference, his job was to rebut his critics on Iraq, and to explain what comes next.
The president warned the mission may become more difficult before it is over. Said the June 30 deadline is firm. We are joined tonight by Fareed Zakaria "Newsweek's" International Editor, and recently the author of "The Future of Freedom," which is out in paperback now. We are very glad to have you with us tonight. We don't see you nearly often enough.
Let's talk about what we have seen in Iraq over the last couple of weeks. And the dangers that what is reasonably large -- I mean it is not as small as I think the administration wanted people to believe -- could become uncontrollable.
FAREED ZAKARIA, AUTHOR, THE FUTURE OF FREEDOM: The real danger Aaron, is not the violence per say. The violence is bad, but it can be dealt with. The problem is that in dealing with the violence, you are generating anti-Americanism.
You are generating a national mood which is increasingly viewing the United States as the problem, the occupier, the foreigner. That's a dangerous spiral to get into when you are a foreigner.
BROWN: So when the President said tonight that he has authorized the military to use decisive force, and if this is what the Iraqis want, you would quarrel with the last part of that? That this is what the Iraqis want?
ZAKARIA: Well if you look at any guerrilla warfare, any insurgency, any of these kinds of things that have taken place in history, the guerrilla, the insurgent wants you to hit back hard. They want you to use massive military power, because it turns off the local population.
And think about what has happened in Fallujah. The killed four of our guys. We've killed 600 of theirs. How do you think the Iraqis feel about that? Even if they don't like Saddam Hussein or -- there is this sense of being pummeled by this very powerful form.
BROWN: But in a place like Fallujah, what was the alternative to going in there and -- to use their term -- pacifying it?
ZAKARIA: I think the key question you have to ask is do you know who you are hitting? If you are getting the people, even in the precinct, even in a city block, who actually did it, I would say fine. But it is obvious we have no idea who we are hitting. Because first of all we have basically used massive retaliation against huge swats of the city.
And secondly, what is our demand? We are saying would the guys who did this please come forward, and then we will stop. Which means we actually don't know whether we have hit these people. So we are using indiscriminative warfare. And all I am saying is, I don't mind it militarily in the sense that I understand the satisfaction that you do something. Politically, you are winning the battle, but you are losing the war.
BROWN: I think a lot of people when they look, a lot of people a whole lot smarter than I am, when they look at the situation there, say that unless this is somehow internationalized, it's doomed in some respect. Is it to late for that? Have to many bridges been burned for that?
ZAKARIA: A lot of bridges have burned. I think if you go back a year when the war was over, France and Germany come forward and say we want to help, just put it under U.N. auspices, NATO comes forward and says that, what we never realized was that -- and I desire to say this -- that we would have a legitimacy problem in Iraq.
We are the United States of America. We come with all the baggage that that means in the sense that we are very powerful. We are seen as propping up Arab dictators. WE are seen as being very pro-Israel.
Right or wrong, I am saying we had an image problem. And we didn't work hard enough to say, how do we get the legitimacy to be able to stay and do all the good things that the President wants to do. Now it will still help. June 30 comes; we need two forms of legitimacy. International is not the only one. The more important one is Domestic.
BROWN: Domestic in Iraq?
ZAKARIA: Domestic with Iraq. Actually I would say three things actually. You need domestic in Iraq. The Iraqi people, the Iraqi real political leaders, not exiles from London. International and the U.N. And you need domestic legitimacy at home in the states.
One of the things the President hasn't done enough is to reach out to the other party. And try to make this a bipartisan endeavor. I think that if you look the President talks about being a war president. Franklin Roosevelt appointed as his Secretary of War, a Republican. As his two assistant Secretaries of War, Republicans.
Harry Truman presents the Marshall plan, and appoints a Republican, Paul Hoffman (ph), to run it. I think if you want to get the other party invested in the success of your enterprise, we need to do that kind of bipartisanship.
BROWN: Just in 20 seconds or so, what is the most important thing you will look for in the next month?
ZAKARIA: Absolutely crucial. Can we produce a credible legitimate Iraqi government to whom we can hand over control? The date is irrelevant. If we can create a real government that isn't viewed as a puppet, that will be the biggest mark of progress yet.
BROWN: Very nice to see you. Come back again when you can.
ZAKARIA: Nice to see you. Thank you Sir.
BROWN: Thank you Fareed Zakaria. Next on NEWSNIGHT, we will talk with the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. Everything from Iraq to terrorism, to the Palestinian issue. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the complicated world of the Middle East, perhaps no Arab country is more important than Egypt. It is one of just two countries that have made peace with Israel. By its sheer size, it wields enormous influence in the region, and is a necessary partner to any U.S. effort to bring peace between the Israelis and the Palestinians. It is also a complicated relationship. We saw a poll yesterday that showed only 6 percent of Egyptians have a favorable view of America.
Whether it is Israel and Palestine, whether it is the war in Iraq or the broader war on terror, Egypt is an important player, or can be. With that as the backdrop and one day after he met with the president in Texas, I talked this morning in Houston with the Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: It seems pretty certain that the Israelis will unilaterally pull out of Gaza. What concerns do you have about that? What problems does it create for you?
HOSNI MUBARAK, PRESIDENT, EGYPT: It's not a problem to create for us, but I would like to point out something. Any unilateral withdrawal I think is much far better to me (UNINTELLIGIBLE) with the Palestinians, so as not to have much more problems.
Secondly, the withdrawal should be connected with the road map. Third point, that any withdrawal should be as a step forward to draw from other places. This is a very important point.
And you know our position from the beginning, that withdrawal should be according to 1967 borders.
BROWN: Is there a concern that an Israeli withdrawal from Gaza will create a security vacuum that will be filled by the most radical elements of Palestinian society?
MUBARAK: Well, I'm trying to tell you, before the withdrawal, this should be discussed with the Palestinians, so that the Palestinians could prepare themselves for their police to put a plan how to secure their area, how to prevent any more escalation. Otherwise, the situation will be much more complicated.
BROWN: The Israelis, as you know, have concerns about the smuggling of arms, coming in into Gaza. On your side of the border, are you prepared to do more in an effort to provide the Israelis with some assurance.
MUBARAK: Look, my friend, let us be very frank. We are doing the maximum effort, we'll never let that happen. But it could happen on any border in the world. We cannot secure border 100 percent. But border -- the smuggling could come from other places. Not only from the Egyptian borders. We have forces there to maintain any kind of smuggling, but this could happen anywhere. From the sea, from the other side. It is not a problem.
BROWN: How does Iraq play into all of this? Is Iraq a separate problem, or is it somehow connected here?
MUBARAK: Now, it shows that they are both connected with each other. If you want to solve the problem in Iraq, you cannot neglect the Israeli issue. My personal proposal is to train the police -- Iraqi police. I heard Abizaid say that the police now doesn't want to fight the Iraqis, the Iraqi police. And I think the best way, from my point of view, that the well trained Iraqi police should take over independently, and other forces should leave the populated area completely. Because if I'm working with you, with the other forces, Iraqi forces and other, foreign, forces, I think the people will condemn them both. That's why the Arab forces, the Iraqi forces will not act very well.
BROWN: Let's make sure I understand that. What you would propose is for the Americans and the British and the others to pull back to their bases and let the Iraqi police force and the Iraqi civil defense forces do the work of maintaining security in the country?
MUBARAK: I think there is no other way else (ph). The foreign forces to withdraw outside the populated area, and these police, who are being well trained and we told them, we are ready to train police for them. Let them take the responsibility on their own, without any participation from any other force.
BROWN: Do you believe that, as the president seems to, that -- that -- that when people feel that they're not participants in government, that that radicalizes them, and that helps create the problem of extremism?
MUBARAK: I don't think this is the big problem. The main problem is the feeling of injustice, and I (UNINTELLIGIBLE). I'm living in the area, I know very well the feeling of injustice is a terrible thing. We have said several times when we had terrorism in the beginning of the '90s, I said we should make an international conference to deal with the problem of terrorism, because it's going to spread all over the world, and the whole countries were going to suffer. Nobody listened. And those terroristic groups were committing crimes, were killing people in their countries, escaped (UNINTELLIGIBLE) and given asylum in some countries. That's one of the biggest mistakes committed by the international community.
And if this is not very well cured in the international conference, and there should be a resolution, binding all the countries of the world, believe me, terrorism will spread more and more.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak. We talked with him this morning in Houston, Texas.
Still ahead on the program, the 9/11 commission hearings as they played out today, finger pointing and all. A break first on CNN, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: As we reported earlier, it was another day of finger pointing at today's 9/11 hearing. The 10th hearing to be held in public. This time the justice department in the hot seat.
While the Condoleezza Rice hearing last week received an enormous amount of attention, in many way the questions and answers today were more telling about where two administrations were on terrorism before the tragedy of 9/11. Here's a longer look at today's testimony.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LOUIS FREEH, FORMER FBI DIRECTOR: Terrorism was not discussed. This was not an issue that the candidates talked about. That the American people talked about during that period. And this was right after the attack on the U.S.S. Cole.
For many many years, a lack of these resources, and maybe more importantly, a lack of legal authority prevented us from doing what was easily done after September 11th.
RICHARD BEN-VENISTE, 9/11 COMMISSION MEMBER: So it was well known in the intelligence community that one of the potential areas, or the vices to be used by terrorists, which they had discussed, according to our intelligence information, was the use of airplanes. Either packed with explosives or otherwise. And suicide missions.
FREEH: That was part of the planning for those events, that is correct. September 11, had we had the right sources overseas, or in the United States, could have been prevented. We did not have those sources. We did not have that telephone call. WE didn't have that e- mail intercept that could have done the job.
You get that by having sources. And you get sources by good investigations. You also prevent terrorism in that regard.
JANET RENO, FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL: When I came into office, I learned that the FBI didn't know what it had. We found stuff in files here that the right-hand didn't know what the left hand was doing.
THOMAS PICKARD, FORMER ACTING FBI DIRECTOR: As I recall, during the period January to September 2001 the FBI received over 1,000 threats. Many of these threats had great specificity, and others were very general in nature.
All were taken seriously, but the volume was daunting. The increase in the chatter was by far the most serious, but it was also the most difficult to deal with. There was no specificity as to what, where, and when. We knew the who, but only that it was al-Qaeda.
COFER BLACK, FORMER DIRECTOR CIA COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER: I tell you, I would start from the standpoint that when I started this job in 1999, I thought there was a good chance I was going to be sitting right here in front of you. And I was mentally prepared for it all along.
The enemy we are up against is one that I have been operating against since the early '90s. I know these guys. I know what they want to do, and how dedicated they are. And they were coming at us hard.
The bottom line here and I have to tell you, and I'll take part of the blame on this, I kind of failed my people despite doing everything I could. We didn't have enough people to do the job. And we didn't have enough money by magnitudes.
JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: The simple fact of September 11 is this; we did not know an attack was coming because for nearly a decade, our government had blinded itself to it's enemies.
Our agents were isolated by government-imposed laws, handcuffed by government-imposed restrictions, and starved for basic information technology. The old national intelligence system in place on September 11 was destined to fail.
TIMOTHY ROEMER, 9/11 COMMISSION: I want to turn to page three of your testimony. And where you are talking about being aggressive, and doing something about Osama Bin Laden. You certainly think Osama Bin Laden is somewhere overseas, correct?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know where he is.
ROEMER: You don't know where he is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't believe he is in the United States of America.
ROEMER: You don't believe he is in the United States, and you want to go get him. And you go to the national security adviser, the president, and you say let's find a way to get him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I said that we should find and kill him. That should be the objective of our government.
BLACK: We are profoundly sorry. We did all that we could. We did our best.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The 9/11 hearings today. What an interesting mix of personalities there. Morning papers, let's take a break first.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Even the Egyptian president asked about morning papers. OK, he didn't. I made that up.
Time to check morning papers from around the country, and around the world. He did ask why I keep taking my glasses off though. The "International Herald Tribune" published by the "New York Times" in Paris leads pretty straight on the 9/11 hearings. Kind of interesting to see how the 9/11 hearings are headlined.
The 9/11 panel faults FBI and Ashcroft. Antiterrorism efforts found lacking. Attorney General blames previous policy.
I like the people who accept -- I not, this isn't about Mr. Ashcroft necessarily -- I like when people say, you know what? We didn't do it as well as we should have.
Also on the front page in Fallujah -- not that what I think matters -- Cease-fire; the battle still rages. Another Jeff Genellman (ph) story. Jeffrey Genellman (ph), writing for the "New York Times." He has done unbelievably good work as the "Times" says I think.
Christian Science Monitor back with us. FBI and 9/11: The Picture Fills In. Commission pieces together crucial moves and mistakes, with a look ahead to reforms. I think that is a very smart headline. There's no sort of blame cast there, it's just kind of straight and lays it out. Now, the "Washington Times." A couple of good ones here. Bush -- that would be President Bush, they got this out pretty quickly -- Bush decried power grab in Iraq. Promises to meet June 30 deadline. President Bush last night vowed to meet the June 30 deadline to transfer power to Iraqis.
Anyway, that is a straight ahead lead by the "Washington Times." Their 9/11 lead a little less so. Ashcroft slams intelligence failures under Clinton, pictures of Attorney General Ashcroft, Former Attorney General Reno, and Louis Freeh, Former Head of the FBI in the "Washington Times."
"Philadelphia Inquirer," also an early deadline, got it out. Unwavering under fire. President vows to finish work of the fallen. Bush rejects analogy of Vietnam. Says few in Iraq back uprising. That kind of a contentious point.
How are we doing on time Jenny? Thank you. The -- good to have the "Des Moines Register" with us. We haven't had them I think since the political season, so welcome back. Urgency unrelenting is the headline that will land on the doorsteps in Des Moines, and much of Iowa tomorrow morning. Panel says FBI goofed on attacks. That's the first time I have seen goofed in a headline. But I like that because it is a word I use.
The "Detroit News," FBI, CIA drop ball. Terror panel says this really is the lead on this. I mean the Commission pretty clearly said the FBI and the CIA didn't do what it was supposed to do. We can then ask why and who and all that. But that is the pretty straight ahead lead. Commission charges agency's inertia failed to uncover September 11 plot. And it's Detroit, so there are a few car stories in there as well.
Let's turn to the "Dallas Morning News." Attorney General faults Clinton, or the A.G. faults Clinton is their lead. And the "Chicago Sun Times," we haven't done their headline in a while. Bush, U.S. failure unthinkable in Iraq. President defends ousting Saddam Links invasion to war on terror. The weather tomorrow in Chicago is terrific, reheating. Thank you for that. I missed that, 63 degrees in Chicago tomorrow.
Here's Bill Hemmer with a look at what is coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."
BILL HEMMER, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks. Tomorrow here on "AMERICAN MORNING," we will talk to a Kennedy family confident, Edward Klein. His new book is called "Farewell Jackie" detailing the final days of the former First Lady's life.
I'll also ask the author what struck him the most about how she lived her final six months. Hope to see you tomorrow morning, 7:00 a.m. Eastern Time here on AMERICAN MORNING -- Aaron.
BROWN: Bill, thank you. Good to have you all with us late tonight. We will see you tomorrow. Good night for all of us.
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