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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Republicans Denounce Kerry's Protest Of Vietnam War; Interview With Bob Woodward; GE, Others Pull Workers From Iraq

Aired April 22, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
Thirty-three years ago John Kerry, the antiwar activist, testified before Congress. Today, Republicans in the Congress struck back. In one of those moments that was stark by its harshness, Republicans, many of them Vietnam Vets also denounced John Kerry as Hanoi John. Welcome to the campaign. It's going to make you proud to be an American.

John McCain, who has some credibility on this, said of Senator Kerry's antiwar activities three decades ago that by his service he earned the right to criticize. That works for me.

By the same token, Sam Johnson, the Texas Republican, also has a right to criticize Senator Kerry. Mr. Johnson was a Vietnam Era POW, so we don't quarrel with that at all.

It was the harshness of it, the pure nastiness of it, the questioning of one's patriotism that left us cold. We still fight the Vietnam War the way we did 30 years ago. We seem to have learned nothing.

It is another war that begins the program, the war in Iraq. The whip begins in Baghdad. CNN's Jane Arraf has the duty on a Friday morning there, so Jane a headline from you.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, among kidnappings, shootings of foreigners and ongoing violence that has sharply limited travel in Iraq, General Electric and some other foreign companies are pulling their people out of the country.

BROWN: Jane, thank you. We'll get back to you right at the top tonight.

On to a change in direction and definition of who's a good guy and who isn't in Iraq, a question of necessity it seems. CNN's David Ensor worked on that today, so David the headline from you.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the necessity is to win Sunni Iraqi hearts and minds and to that end U.S. officials say they now favor hiring a lot more former Ba'ath Party officials and officers who were in that party. They're hoping that that will mollify the Sunnis, bring them in a little bit and perhaps bring some more competence into the picture as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you. Finally, a new and potentially thorny development in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, CNN's Kelli Arena covering, Kelli the headline there.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, in a mixed decision an appeals court sends the Moussaoui case back to district court where it says a compromise protecting both national security and constitutional rights can be reached -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also on the program tonight the man of the hour, the man of the week. Bob Woodward joins us tonight for a chance to talk about the book beyond the headlines it has made.

Plus, repercussions from a photo we showed you earlier in the week on Monday, in fact, why the woman who took that shot is now out of a job.

And when the rooster crows you'll know what time it is, won't you, time of course for morning papers, that and much more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with Iraq during a moment of relative calm, that is if mortar shells and rockets falling just short of a hospital in Fallujah count as calm, or an American general quietly but plainly warning the insurgents in the city to hand over their heavy weapons or else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: The fighters in Fallujah understand completely what is going on, what is being offered and what the linkages to further military operations or lack thereof, so if they can't deliver then we've got to take a look at some other options to include the ending of the suspension of offensive operations, in other words the resumption of offensive operations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A quiet threat at a reasonably quiet moment. Farther south in Basra there was another kind of silence, another kind entirely.

Here's CNN's Jim Clancy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Teachers hung their heads and mourned for the children who will never return to their classrooms for young lives snuffed out in a fiery instant by suicide car bombs.

While Basra mourned, some demonstrated against the U.S.-led occupation. Supporters of radical Shia leader Muqtada al-Sadr exploited the grief for political gain.

Al-Sadr is locked in a struggle with the coalition to avoid arrest on murder charges and hold on to his paid militia, the al-Mehdi Army. Many of the young men marching wore the trademark black of al- Sadr's militiamen.

Wednesday's attacks were the most devastating suffered by the people of Basra since the U.S.-led coalition launched its invasion more than a year ago. Washington put the blame on terrorists associated with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi whose strategy of trying to incite civil war appeared the most likely explanation for the savagery of the attacks but no group has yet claimed responsibility.

Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Also in Baghdad today, insurgents gunned down a South African security guard. He was one of thousands of civilians, foreigners, doing every kind of job in Iraq and then some and some of them, of course, are dying there.

Many, though not all, are employed by giant corporations and today two of those corporations, General Electric and Siemens, suspended contracts in Iraq, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars, which leaves the Iraqis where exactly?

Here's CNN's Jane Arraf.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): At the door of power plants, the exodus of just a few dozen foreign contractors, including most of the managerial force has left idled equipment and hundreds of frustrated Iraqi workers saying they can do the jobs themselves.

Many of these workers repaired this badly bombed power station after the 1991 Gulf War with no foreign help at all. They make a fraction of the salaries of the contractors and they are passionate about their work.

"When I go home and there is no electricity, I develop a kind of hysteria" says technician Ahmed (unintelligible). He says they don't need the foreign managers or their equipment or their uniforms. "I will work in my underwear, yes in my underwear. What has this uniform done for me" he says.

Although the electricity minister says the exodus will have no effect on electricity this summer workers here point out idle turbines and equipment still in boxes. They're worried about the summer power supply.

With German workers pulling out last week and American contractors staying in the relative safety of the U.S. protected Green Zone, these private Russian contractors are the only foreign workers left here. They stayed with beefed up security even after eight of their colleagues were briefly taken hostage.

"We like our work and we're used to working under any conditions" says (unintelligible). "The Germans had better conditions than us but they left."

Senior coalition officials say they don't yet know what the impact of contractors leaving will be on reconstruction.

ADMIRAL DAVID NASH, HEAD OF PROJECT MANAGEMENT OFFICE: I think it's too early to tell. We knew that security was going to be a problem and we're going to have to deal with it.

ARRAF: But many companies didn't count on a wave of kidnappings and the U.S. military closing major supply routes to battle insurgents and they didn't bargain for an Iraq that a year after the war would be so unpredictable.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: And that is what continues to drive people out. Coalition officials now say that the South African who was shot and killed today was a security person working for the coalition. His translator was shot and wounded. According to police, they were gunned down in a supermarket -- Aaron.

BROWN: Do we have any sense of what percentage of the foreign companies have pulled out or how many of the foreign workers have pulled out or how many are thinking about pulling out?

ARRAF: You know some of the major companies, as we know, have pulled out maybe -- some of them rather have pulled out all of their people, General Electric and the German company Siemens but the biggest contractors, such as Bechtel say that perhaps ten percent of their workforce are out of the country and those are people who went away and they're not encouraged to come back.

It's hard to come back anyway. Essentially all the highways are closed. The flights are pretty well booked so it really varies from company to company but the worrying thing is, according to senior officials, they just don't know when this is going to stop -- Aaron.

BROWN: I'm sorry, on the question of flights I hadn't thought of this, are there commercial flights coming into Baghdad?

ARRAF: There is a very brave airline Royal Jordanian, this sounds like a plug for Royal Jordanian but it's not, they're doing what seem to be twice daily flights and they are booked solid all the time.

Now there are special charter planes, of course that come in, chartered by companies. Some people have their own airplanes as well but there is only one currently commercial airline flying in. Even though the airport is supposed to be open, not a lot of takers for that route -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jane, thank you, Jane Arraf in Baghdad. Looking back a year many now believe the seeds of at least some of the violence, some of the trouble we've seen of late was sewn by a pair of decisions made shortly after the fall of Baghdad.

One was disbanding the Iraqi Army and the other was purging the government of members of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party. Certainly nobody at the time wanted high-ranking officials of the old regime in charge of a new regime but the decision also deprived hundreds of thousands of rank and file Iraqis of work. The government needed expertise as well. So, today the coalition changed course.

Here's CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): One reason to hire more Ba'athists, say administration officials, to dampen Sunni support for insurgents fighting coalition forces in Fallujah and elsewhere by implementing the so-called de-Ba'athification policy differently.

DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: It sometimes excludes innocent, capable people who are Ba'athists in name only from playing a role in reconstructing Iraq.

ENSOR: U.S. officials say the rehiring of top Sunnis can be done without changing the rules set up by Paul Bremer, head of the coalition provisional authority under which the top four ranks of the Ba'ath Party are banned from government and military jobs.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: There are many senior officers remaining from this country who can meet all of the criteria that had been established in the de-Ba'athification policy.

ENSOR: In fact, officials say, a half dozen generals have been hired for top jobs in just the past week or so, none of whom were in the top Ba'athist ranks.

WALTER SLOCOMBE, FORMER CPA OFFICIAL: A very large number even of generals, I think something like half of the major generals were not in the top four ranks of the Ba'ath Party.

ENSOR: White House officials express frustration with Ahmed Chalabi, head of the de-Ba'athification Committee of the Iraqi Governing Council. A Shiite politician with close ties to Washington conservatives, Chalabi officials say has blocked the hiring of many lower level Ba'ath Party members. Disappointment with the weak performance under fire of the new Iraqi Army is another reason U.S. officials want more of the old officers back.

ADNAN PACHACHI, IRAQI GOVERNING COUNCIL: I think they have come to the conclusion that Iraqis will not fight unless they are commanded by Iraqis so they want to get some of these, you know, generals with a good reputation.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ENSOR: Officials are hoping the move to hire more Sunnis with Ba'ath Party backgrounds will weaken support for the insurgents in the run-up to the transfer of sovereignty which is now just ten weeks away -- Aaron.

BROWN: How long does this process take? I assume it takes months if not more.

ENSOR: To hire these people?

BROWN: Yes.

ENSOR: Well, it's an ongoing process. They've already hired a bunch of generals just in the past week. There are going to be more hirings we are told. They're not changing the rules. They're just changing the way they are interpreting them.

BROWN: David, thank you, David Ensor in Washington.

Perhaps no case has been as difficult for the federal government to prosecute in the post-9/11 era than the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in the United States in connection with the 9/11 attacks.

To defend himself, Moussaoui says he needs the testimony of al Qaeda leaders who are in U.S. custody somewhere something the Justice Department says would harm national security. Today, an appeals court ruled on the case giving the accused terrorist much of what he wanted and some of what he didn't want at all.

Here again, CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): The government's case against Zacarias Moussaoui is still on track. The appeals court ruled to lift sanctions imposed by the trial judge that would have prevented Moussaoui from facing the death penalty and would have kept all evidence regarding September 11 out of court but the appeals panel also said Moussaoui has the right to introduce testimony from these three top al Qaeda operatives who he says can help clear him.

FRANK DUNHAM, MOUSSAOUI'S ATTORNEY: The government has control of these witnesses. It's not like they're floating around out there in the world somewhere and nobody can find them.

ARENA: The government argued Moussaoui is not entitled to access to the detainees because they are in military custody outside the United States. Prosecutors offered written summaries of their interrogations instead.

Moussaoui's defense attorneys balked. So did the judge Leonie Brinkema ruling there could be no adequate substitute for live witness testimony but the appeals court disagreed and sent the case back to Brinkema so she could work out a compromise. JAYNE WEINTRAUB, ATTORNEY: What they've done is said basically well yes you're entitled to present mitigating evidence. You're entitled to show some part of the defense by introducing mitigation from witnesses outside the United States that you maintain are al Qaeda witnesses. However, we're not going to let you have the right of confrontation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Even though Moussaoui's lawyers call the ruling a positive step and a win-win, the government is studying the ruling and says that it's pleased its core position was upheld -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, let's talk about what compromise means here. It's not enough to have a statement from the al Qaeda people. There has to be some questioning. How is this going to happen?

ARENA: Well that is the big question, isn't it Aaron? We spoke with the lawyers representing Moussaoui today. They were not part of any negotiation in terms of any offer that was made to Brinkema before the district court. They are hopeful that with their involvement perhaps some compromise can be reached.

But the government has been pretty steadfast, Aaron, in its refusal to allow any unfettered access to these detainees charging that that would interrupt an interrogation, could compromise national security, and says that it would interfere with the administration's running of the war, the war on terror. So, it's going to be very interesting to see if a compromise can actually be reached.

BROWN: And just quickly, the government has always had a fall back position here, which is if necessary it could take this to a military tribunal and make a different set of rules.

ARENA: That's true.

BROWN: Does today's decision make that more likely, less likely or we don't know?

ARENA: We don't know, Aaron.

BROWN: OK.

ARENA: But I can tell you that they have tried mightily not to have that happen.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you, good to see you again, Kelli Arena tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, for most journalists I would say bringing down a president in scandal and having Robert Redford play you in the movie would be enough to last a lifetime but then most are not Bob Woodward. He joins us coming up.

And later, the power of pictures, and the line between public sorrow and political propaganda.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Bob Woodward's new book "Plan of Attack" has made a lot of news this week. It has also put the White House, which is a big fan of the book overall, in a bit of an awkward position.

The book, you've no doubt heard or read, suggests that the president made up his mind to go to war against Iraq last January, not March as they would -- the White House has always maintained.

It also suggests that Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the U.S. learned about the plans, the war plan and the decision, before the secretary of state learned about the decision. These revelations and others have set off a war of words of sorts. Some key White House officials called into action so you can call this a week of denials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: To my knowledge, a decision had not been taken by the president to go to war at that meeting. There was certainly nothing I said that should have suggested that and any suggestion to the contrary would not be accurate.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: The question that has arisen seems to be that Prince Bandar received a briefing on the plan with some suggestion that I hadn't. Of course, I had. I was intimately familiar with the plan and I was aware that Prince Bandar was being briefed on the plan.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Secretary Powell had been privy to all of this. He knew what the war plan was. The only question was what was the president's thinking internally about whether the diplomacy was working and that's what I suggested that the president talk to Colin Powell about. This was not Mr. President you're going to war tomorrow. I think you better tell the secretary of state. It's just not right.

PRINCE BANDAR BIN SULTAN, SAUDI ARABIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: And to be very honest with you, no BS, I've been in this town too long to know I should not tell you BS, I didn't know about the war actually except one hour before the attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: In addition to being an extraordinary piece of reporting, Mr. Woodward's book has become a classic ink blot test we think. The words are there in black and white for all to read and everyone sees in them what they want to see in them. What the words mean and what the people who said them now say they meant to say at the time have become a part of the story.

Bob Woodward joins us now. We are pleased to have him with us tonight, good to see you. Does it surprise you that everybody, whether they support the president and support the war or oppose the president and oppose the war, seem to come away with their case strengthened?

BOB WOODWARD, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, that's quite possible but if I can just respond to what you ran there. I mean part of this denial business is to deny things that I don't say. I never said or suggested, in fact the book says the opposite, Powell knew about the war plan.

What's interesting about this is the president himself is on record in the interviews I did with him saying that he decided at this point. He, in fact, called Powell in, in a 12-minute meeting to tell him it's war and said to Colin Powell it's time to put on your war uniform.

That doesn't mean that we're still planning and Powell left that meeting saying to himself he's going to do it and told others it was a very momentous meeting, so in a sense it's some of these people against their own president's words.

BROWN: Just a couple questions on that. That meeting, the Powell meeting, took place when and it took place relative to the Bandar meeting, two days after?

WOODWARD: Two days after, yes.

BROWN: And that was.

WOODWARD: Absolutely. I'm sorry.

BROWN: I'm sorry and that was in January, correct?

WOODWARD: That was Jan -- the meeting with Prince Bandar was January 11, Saturday in Dick Cheney's office. General Myers who is the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs before they kind of started this whatever they're doing here said publicly after the book came out that my account is essentially accurate.

For Secretary Rumsfeld to stand there and say he never said anything that suggested that war was coming in his on the record interviews with me he said precisely that. In fact, he told Prince Bandar, showing him the war plan, you can take this to the bank. It is going to happen. And then in the course of this very convoluted story, the Pentagon cut that part of the transcript out.

We ran it in the "Washington Post" and it's there for all to see. Now, you know, what's he saying and why is he doing this I'm not sure but the accurate account based on everything I've heard here and listened is what's in the book.

BROWN: Well, let me weigh in perhaps suggest why they're doing what they're doing. There are two issues here, one whether the secretary of state was so far out of the loop that an ambassador to Saudi Arabia heard about the decision to go to war before he did and I can see why they would be embarrassed by that and... WOODWARD: Well, maybe they ought to be but that -- listen, if you saw what the president said about this in the interview, Condi Rice was there and she said yes, I said to the president you better call Colin in, and now they're trying to say oh it's just call him in and kind of say that we're thinking aloud about war or that it's a maybe. Well, going to war with Iraq was a maybe for over a year as we well know.

BROWN: And the other part of that is that they have maintained all along the decision was made in March and that's important because the period, in their view, between January and March they were engaged in what they would like the world to believe was honest diplomacy, so I assume that's their reasoning.

WOODWARD: Well, yes, but I mean again and I think the book points this out and I think they would all agree there is a two or three track strategy in all of this and one is war planning and one is diplomacy and at times they reinforce each other and at times they contradict each other. There's no other way to do it.

I believe if during this period diplomacy had succeeded and Saddam Hussein and his sons and his inner circle had packed off to Egypt or someplace like that, we might not have had to have this war, so it was certainly possible that diplomacy could succeed. If you look at the onset of any war in history it has always been proceeded by some form of diplomacy.

BROWN: I want to talk about a couple of other things. In many ways, I think the book is about relationships. I want to talk about some of those. I need to take a break first, so we'll continue with Mr. Woodward after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We're back with reporter Bob Woodward and author Bob Woodward who's new book "Plan of Attack" has lots of people reading and lots of people talking.

You paint a picture of Secretary of State Powell as out of the loop. He heard about things late. His advice wasn't heeded. Have you ever wondered why he didn't resign? Did you ever ask him that?

WOODWARD: Well, the main reason Powell did not resign is because of the soldiers over there. If he were to resign, it would be a body blow to the morale of our troops. We are in the middle of a really -- the war continues and imagine yourself sitting over, you know, hunched down trying to protect yourself and you hear the great general, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Colin Powell has resigned as secretary of state.

You know then you would say, you know, it's unthinkable in Powell's ethic, in the soldier's code you don't do that. That's like you're running into the machine guns and the commander has said charge and take the hill.

You may disagree with it. You may not like it. You may think you're going to get killed. You may think your reputation is going to be wiped out but you keep going into the machine guns because that's what the soldier is trained to do and honorably will carry out the orders of the commander-in-chief.

BROWN: Let's talk then about the commander-in-chief. Did you ever ask the president if he had any second thoughts, any doubts about it all?

WOODWARD: Yes, I did.

In fact, I read to the president what Tony Blair had said, because Tony Blair, the president's partner in this war, at a party conference said, look, when you get letters from the family who has lost somebody in the Iraq war and they tell you that they hate you, you cannot avoid having some doubt.

And, as soon as I said that to the president, he's sitting there in the Oval Office, he kind of bounces in his chair a little bit and just says, no, no doubt whatsoever, period. You look at somebody and you look them in the eye, you look at all the other reporting you have done and you -- I've not found anyone who suggested that he has had any doubt at all.

BROWN: Does that kind of certainty surprise you?

WOODWARD: It is very unusual. And I think a lot of people will think that, hey, wait a minute, in our business, journalism, you live on doubt.

You have accord of it every day about everything you hear and see and do. And the president is running for reelection on this war and is running under this heading, as Karl Rove outlined the strategy to the president, which I described in the book, with the persona of a strong leader. And that's what this is all about.

BROWN: Does the president -- in the end, did the WMD issue really matter to the president or did he want this war because he has this belief that he is on the Earth in some respects, or the U.S. is on the Earth to free people?

WOODWARD: Well, that's what he says. He said, we have a duty to free people.

And I think the WMD was important. It was the articulated reason. It was why the U.N. was challenging Saddam Hussein initially in a unanimous resolution. And so that -- that's very critical. But in terms of what is at the core of George Bush's notion of his job as president, the duty to free people is at the center. Indeed, taking care of threats and protecting America is also there, but I think the other one is -- is the spin of him.

BROWN: Mr. Woodward, it's nice to see you. Congratulations.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

BROWN: It is a powerful and really interesting piece of work. Good for you.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

BROWN: Bob Woodward. The book is "Plan of Attack." Mr. Woodward will also be Larry's guest tomorrow. I think by now the headlines are out there, but it is the back stories that often I find fascinating. And we dealt with some of them tonight and I assume Larry will tomorrow as well.

Mr. Woodward book not included, this has been a tough time for the craft of journalism in some respects. Scandal at "New York Times" over Jayson Blair, at "USA Today" over star reporter Jack Kelley have been painful. It is therefore good to remind the world of journalism and you too that we are not simply the Blairs and the Kelleys. There are also the Mary McGrorys. The Washington columnist died yesterday. She was 85.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY MCGRORY, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I think that Clinton should do something else.

BROWN (voice-over): At "The Washington Post" for the past 20 years and at the old "Washington Star" for more than three decades before that, from the Army-McCarthy hearings in the late '40s, to the war in Iraq in another century altogether, Mary McGrory did something more than just cover the big stories of the day. She crystallized them in acutely observed, beautifully written columns that were both diamond-hard and diamond-sharp.

Most of the great newspaper writers of her age, whether they agreed with her liberal views or not, nonetheless agreed on this. No one was better. It is, we think, a good thing that Ms. McGrory never broke the law. Where would a jury of her peers ever have been found? She had none.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: As we said, Ms. McGrory died yesterday at 85.

Still to come tonight, American soldiers on their final journey home and the political fallout from the images.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, as you know, we do this every night. It is, we think, the least we or anyone can do, Democrat or Republican, for or against the war.

In that spirit, a woman working for a military contractor in Kuwait took pictures of coffins on their way home. She says she wanted to show the respect and the honor that they are given every step of the way. The pictures were published in "The Seattle Times" on Sunday. Other pictures like them have now made their way on to the Internet since. And the debate over showing them and the military withholding them has begun again.

From the Pentagon tonight, here is CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are pictures the Pentagon didn't want you to see, row on row of flag draped coffins on their final voyage home from Iraq.

The official Air Force photographs were taken for historical purposes and released to an anti-government secrecy Web site, the memoryhole.org under the Freedom of Information Act.

That release is now under review because it conflicts with official Pentagon policy banning news media coverage of the return of military remains. To some that policy seems misguided.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: The idea that they are essentially snuck back into the country under the cover of night so no one can see that their casket has arrived, I just think is wrong.

MCINTYRE: Since just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War with a few rare exceptions, the Pentagon has banned cameras at Dover Air Force Base or anyplace en route. Grave site coverage is permitted if the family agrees.

The Pentagon insists it's not trying to cover up the war's human cost but simply protecting the privacy of families and it has the support of the National Military Family Association.

In a statement, the organization says there is no apparent consensus among families about the policy and it believes the current policy is sensitive to the needs of the families.

This picture published on the front page of The Seattle Times last Sunday showing more than 20 flag-draped coffins resulted in a contract worker losing her job. After e-mailing the picture, taken earlier this month, to a friend the woman was fired along with her husband for what the contractor says was a violation of government and company regulations.

For the newspaper, publishing the picture was an easy call.

DAVID BOARDMAN, MANAGING EDITOR, "THE SEATTLE TIMES": The most amazing thing about it really is that everybody seems to be moved by it. What they see in it is largely a function of what they bring to it, so that some people see it as a strong anti-war statement. Other people see it very much as a picture that honors the soldiers who are over there.

BROWN (on camera): The Pentagon says they have nothing to apologize in trying to craft guidelines that balance the needs of the news media against the sensitivities of the families. And an official says there are no plans to review the policy.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few more stories that made news around the world today, starting with an enormous train wreck and explosion at a train station in North Korea near the Chinese border. Because it is North Korea, both information and pictures are very tough to come by. We do have this still photo from an Asian network of the blast which apparently occurred when two fuel trains collided. There are reports that as many as 3,000 people died. Immediately after the explosion, North Korea's government cut the international phone lines to prevent the story from getting out.

Saudi authorities say three Islamic militants were killed in a shoot-out with police on the streets of Jeddah today. The men, who are believed to have been on the country's most wanted list, made their final stand at a construction site in a residential neighborhood.

And just as the new astronauts came on board, another gyroscope failed on the International Space Station, the second of four to go on the fritz, a blown circuit breaker to blame. A space walk will be needed to replace it.

Still ahead tonight, a look back to a time when television was black and white and politics was blood sport.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A moment now to reflect on a time when the fear wasn't terrorism, but communism and the response was another "ism," McCarthyism.

Looking back, historians now agree, as much as historians can agree, we suppose, that there really was something to be scared of. The Rosenbergs probably were spies, Alger Hiss almost certainly so. And Joe McCarthy might have been and to something, even if he probably hadn't the slightest idea what.

But if the view of time has evolved, the take on the man has not. He was a drunkard, a bully and a brute. We bring it up now because 50 years ago at a crucial moment in the history of television and the country, Joe McCarthy got his comeuppance.

Here is CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You took us down the road to....

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Even in the first days, TV had proven its political punch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eisenhower.

BROWN: The tumultuous 1952 conventions attracted millions and Richard Nixon saved his political career that year.

RICHARD NIXON: People have got to have confidence.

GREENFIELD: With his famous Checkers speech.

But for pure political theater, no one had ever seen anything like the confrontation between a powerful senator and the United States Army that played out 50 years ago this spring in a Senate committee hearing.

Brandeis, Professor Tom Doherty, author of "Cold War, Cool Medium," a book on McCarthy and the media:

THOMAS DOHERTY, AUTHOR, "COLD WAR, COOL MEDIUM": People who had never tuned into TV with quite that avidness before found themselves being almost hypnotized by these hearings as they went on. There are stories of housewives neglecting their work so they could catch the afternoon show. For an entire generation, it was the first time they confronted the full force of TV as a special medium.

SEN. JOSEPH MCCARTHY (R), WISCONSIN: Communist conspiracy.

GREENFIELD: On one side, Wisconsin Senator Joseph McCarthy and his brilliant 25-year-old counsel Roy Cohn, who had spent years investigating alleged subversion in all corners of government, now accusing high-ranking Army officials of covering up communism in the military.

On the other side, the Army, and its special counsel, the portly Boston Brahman Joseph Welch, accusing Cohn of seeking special favors for a recently drafted good friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven't the slightest intention of being quiet.

GREENFIELD: The substance was quickly overwhelmed by the theater, captured in the movie "Point of Order," McCarthy repeatedly interrupting with what became a national catchphrase.

MCCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, point of order.

GREENFIELD: Attorney Joseph Welch using his hawkish wit...

JOSEPH WELCH, ATTORNEY: Did you think this came from a pixie?

GREENFIELD: ... to attack his opponents, including this not-so- veiled hint at Roy Cohn's' private life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I'm (UNINTELLIGIBLE) pixie.

WELCH: I should say, Mr. Senator, that a pixie is a close relative of a fairy.

GREENFIELD: But the weeks of charges and countercharges were all overshadowed by a single moment in June, when McCarthy, breaking an agreement, raised the political past of a Welch associate. WELCH: Little did I dream you could be so reckless.

GREENFIELD: And Welch destroyed the Senator's career in this moment.

WELCH: Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness.

Let us not assassinate this land further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir?

DOHERTY: You can actually see clips of Roy Cohn agonizing, trying to signal McCarthy to shut up, because he knows this is just going to be a devastating moment. And, in memory, anyway, that is the moment where you can sort of see the end of Joseph McCarthy, who is self-immolated on live television.

GREENFIELD (on camera): We also saw something else. We saw how the visual message, the jowly, semi-shaven, gravel-voiced intimidating senator, vs. the cool, calm, courtly lawyer could wind up being the most important message of all. And that is a lesson that continues to shape American politics and journalist half a century later.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, not much time for morning papers today, and a lot of cool ones. Time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world.

We will begin with "The International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times" in Paris. This is an unbelievably good story right in the center of the paper. "Japanese Are Cold to Free Hostages." These are the three hostages taken in Iraq who were returned to Japan. They're receiving messages like: "You got what you deserve. You are Japan's shame." This is from Japanese citizens saying this to them. "You cause trouble for everyone." I suspect that will be front page "New York Times" tomorrow. That is an -- it says something about the culture and I'm not sure what it is. But it is just an unbelievably good story.

"The Christian Science Monitor." We've taken to this paper of late, haven't we? "Marines Poised For Fallujah Offensive" is their lead. And they do a sidebar on the war, "A General of Taps and Tears. General a Veteran of Wars, But Also of Grief." He visits many of the families who have lost loved ones in Iraq and Afghanistan, I guess.

"Dallas Morning News" also leads with the war locally. "After a Year in Iraq, Fort Hood Task Force is Back, Riding High at Home." They were on a ferris wheel, I guess, when the shot was taken. "4th Infantry Losses, Job to be Done, Tempered Joy, a Festive Reunion." Also, the coffin story is on the front page. "Couple Fired For Photo of G.I.'s Coffin." It does strike me that if they wanted to keep that story -- that picture out of the public eye, they have not done a very good job of it.

How are we doing on time? Thank you.

"Detroit Free Press." "I'm An Innocent Guy, Says the Macomb County Prosecutor, But Marlinga" -- I hope I pronounced that right, because I hate to pronounce anyone's name who has been charged with a crime -- "Is Charged in Rape Case Payoffs." Always bad when the prosecutor gets charged, isn't it?

"The Philadelphia Inquirer." "Jackson's Secret Indictment At Issue." The star's attorney had objected to secrecy of the grand jury investigation. And, once again, the coffin story on the front page of "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

And the weather tomorrow in Chicago, "same old, same old." Beats me. Some day, I'll figure out why I end the segment that way.

We'll wrap up the day in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A quick look at our top story tonight, a relatively quiet day in Iraq. And that's news.

The death toll from yesterday's suicide bombs in Basra now stands at 73, much mourning today, hundreds more hospitalized. In the flash- point city of Fallujah, U.S. military officials say not nearly enough heavy weapons have been handed over, as dictated by the cease-fire agreement. Coalition force -- an official, rather, saying today time is running out for a peaceful solution -- calm for now, but tense.

Tomorrow, on this program, a remarkable war story from more than a half a end century ago, 12 U.S. sailors, one German submarine. The sailors captured the sub. We'll hear from four of the heroes -- that and much more on NEWSNIGHT tomorrow, 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Tomorrow is Friday, isn't it? Morning papers and the tabloids, too.

That's our report for tonight. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for most of you.

We're all back here tomorrow. And we hope that includes you, 10:00 Eastern time.

Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired April 22, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
Thirty-three years ago John Kerry, the antiwar activist, testified before Congress. Today, Republicans in the Congress struck back. In one of those moments that was stark by its harshness, Republicans, many of them Vietnam Vets also denounced John Kerry as Hanoi John. Welcome to the campaign. It's going to make you proud to be an American.

John McCain, who has some credibility on this, said of Senator Kerry's antiwar activities three decades ago that by his service he earned the right to criticize. That works for me.

By the same token, Sam Johnson, the Texas Republican, also has a right to criticize Senator Kerry. Mr. Johnson was a Vietnam Era POW, so we don't quarrel with that at all.

It was the harshness of it, the pure nastiness of it, the questioning of one's patriotism that left us cold. We still fight the Vietnam War the way we did 30 years ago. We seem to have learned nothing.

It is another war that begins the program, the war in Iraq. The whip begins in Baghdad. CNN's Jane Arraf has the duty on a Friday morning there, so Jane a headline from you.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, among kidnappings, shootings of foreigners and ongoing violence that has sharply limited travel in Iraq, General Electric and some other foreign companies are pulling their people out of the country.

BROWN: Jane, thank you. We'll get back to you right at the top tonight.

On to a change in direction and definition of who's a good guy and who isn't in Iraq, a question of necessity it seems. CNN's David Ensor worked on that today, so David the headline from you.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the necessity is to win Sunni Iraqi hearts and minds and to that end U.S. officials say they now favor hiring a lot more former Ba'ath Party officials and officers who were in that party. They're hoping that that will mollify the Sunnis, bring them in a little bit and perhaps bring some more competence into the picture as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, thank you. Finally, a new and potentially thorny development in the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, CNN's Kelli Arena covering, Kelli the headline there.

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Well, in a mixed decision an appeals court sends the Moussaoui case back to district court where it says a compromise protecting both national security and constitutional rights can be reached -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also on the program tonight the man of the hour, the man of the week. Bob Woodward joins us tonight for a chance to talk about the book beyond the headlines it has made.

Plus, repercussions from a photo we showed you earlier in the week on Monday, in fact, why the woman who took that shot is now out of a job.

And when the rooster crows you'll know what time it is, won't you, time of course for morning papers, that and much more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with Iraq during a moment of relative calm, that is if mortar shells and rockets falling just short of a hospital in Fallujah count as calm, or an American general quietly but plainly warning the insurgents in the city to hand over their heavy weapons or else.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: The fighters in Fallujah understand completely what is going on, what is being offered and what the linkages to further military operations or lack thereof, so if they can't deliver then we've got to take a look at some other options to include the ending of the suspension of offensive operations, in other words the resumption of offensive operations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A quiet threat at a reasonably quiet moment. Farther south in Basra there was another kind of silence, another kind entirely.

Here's CNN's Jim Clancy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JIM CLANCY, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Teachers hung their heads and mourned for the children who will never return to their classrooms for young lives snuffed out in a fiery instant by suicide car bombs.

While Basra mourned, some demonstrated against the U.S.-led occupation. Supporters of radical Shia leader Muqtada al-Sadr exploited the grief for political gain.

Al-Sadr is locked in a struggle with the coalition to avoid arrest on murder charges and hold on to his paid militia, the al-Mehdi Army. Many of the young men marching wore the trademark black of al- Sadr's militiamen.

Wednesday's attacks were the most devastating suffered by the people of Basra since the U.S.-led coalition launched its invasion more than a year ago. Washington put the blame on terrorists associated with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi whose strategy of trying to incite civil war appeared the most likely explanation for the savagery of the attacks but no group has yet claimed responsibility.

Jim Clancy, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Also in Baghdad today, insurgents gunned down a South African security guard. He was one of thousands of civilians, foreigners, doing every kind of job in Iraq and then some and some of them, of course, are dying there.

Many, though not all, are employed by giant corporations and today two of those corporations, General Electric and Siemens, suspended contracts in Iraq, contracts worth hundreds of millions of dollars, which leaves the Iraqis where exactly?

Here's CNN's Jane Arraf.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): At the door of power plants, the exodus of just a few dozen foreign contractors, including most of the managerial force has left idled equipment and hundreds of frustrated Iraqi workers saying they can do the jobs themselves.

Many of these workers repaired this badly bombed power station after the 1991 Gulf War with no foreign help at all. They make a fraction of the salaries of the contractors and they are passionate about their work.

"When I go home and there is no electricity, I develop a kind of hysteria" says technician Ahmed (unintelligible). He says they don't need the foreign managers or their equipment or their uniforms. "I will work in my underwear, yes in my underwear. What has this uniform done for me" he says.

Although the electricity minister says the exodus will have no effect on electricity this summer workers here point out idle turbines and equipment still in boxes. They're worried about the summer power supply.

With German workers pulling out last week and American contractors staying in the relative safety of the U.S. protected Green Zone, these private Russian contractors are the only foreign workers left here. They stayed with beefed up security even after eight of their colleagues were briefly taken hostage.

"We like our work and we're used to working under any conditions" says (unintelligible). "The Germans had better conditions than us but they left."

Senior coalition officials say they don't yet know what the impact of contractors leaving will be on reconstruction.

ADMIRAL DAVID NASH, HEAD OF PROJECT MANAGEMENT OFFICE: I think it's too early to tell. We knew that security was going to be a problem and we're going to have to deal with it.

ARRAF: But many companies didn't count on a wave of kidnappings and the U.S. military closing major supply routes to battle insurgents and they didn't bargain for an Iraq that a year after the war would be so unpredictable.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: And that is what continues to drive people out. Coalition officials now say that the South African who was shot and killed today was a security person working for the coalition. His translator was shot and wounded. According to police, they were gunned down in a supermarket -- Aaron.

BROWN: Do we have any sense of what percentage of the foreign companies have pulled out or how many of the foreign workers have pulled out or how many are thinking about pulling out?

ARRAF: You know some of the major companies, as we know, have pulled out maybe -- some of them rather have pulled out all of their people, General Electric and the German company Siemens but the biggest contractors, such as Bechtel say that perhaps ten percent of their workforce are out of the country and those are people who went away and they're not encouraged to come back.

It's hard to come back anyway. Essentially all the highways are closed. The flights are pretty well booked so it really varies from company to company but the worrying thing is, according to senior officials, they just don't know when this is going to stop -- Aaron.

BROWN: I'm sorry, on the question of flights I hadn't thought of this, are there commercial flights coming into Baghdad?

ARRAF: There is a very brave airline Royal Jordanian, this sounds like a plug for Royal Jordanian but it's not, they're doing what seem to be twice daily flights and they are booked solid all the time.

Now there are special charter planes, of course that come in, chartered by companies. Some people have their own airplanes as well but there is only one currently commercial airline flying in. Even though the airport is supposed to be open, not a lot of takers for that route -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jane, thank you, Jane Arraf in Baghdad. Looking back a year many now believe the seeds of at least some of the violence, some of the trouble we've seen of late was sewn by a pair of decisions made shortly after the fall of Baghdad.

One was disbanding the Iraqi Army and the other was purging the government of members of Saddam Hussein's Ba'ath Party. Certainly nobody at the time wanted high-ranking officials of the old regime in charge of a new regime but the decision also deprived hundreds of thousands of rank and file Iraqis of work. The government needed expertise as well. So, today the coalition changed course.

Here's CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): One reason to hire more Ba'athists, say administration officials, to dampen Sunni support for insurgents fighting coalition forces in Fallujah and elsewhere by implementing the so-called de-Ba'athification policy differently.

DAN SENOR, CPA SPOKESMAN: It sometimes excludes innocent, capable people who are Ba'athists in name only from playing a role in reconstructing Iraq.

ENSOR: U.S. officials say the rehiring of top Sunnis can be done without changing the rules set up by Paul Bremer, head of the coalition provisional authority under which the top four ranks of the Ba'ath Party are banned from government and military jobs.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: There are many senior officers remaining from this country who can meet all of the criteria that had been established in the de-Ba'athification policy.

ENSOR: In fact, officials say, a half dozen generals have been hired for top jobs in just the past week or so, none of whom were in the top Ba'athist ranks.

WALTER SLOCOMBE, FORMER CPA OFFICIAL: A very large number even of generals, I think something like half of the major generals were not in the top four ranks of the Ba'ath Party.

ENSOR: White House officials express frustration with Ahmed Chalabi, head of the de-Ba'athification Committee of the Iraqi Governing Council. A Shiite politician with close ties to Washington conservatives, Chalabi officials say has blocked the hiring of many lower level Ba'ath Party members. Disappointment with the weak performance under fire of the new Iraqi Army is another reason U.S. officials want more of the old officers back.

ADNAN PACHACHI, IRAQI GOVERNING COUNCIL: I think they have come to the conclusion that Iraqis will not fight unless they are commanded by Iraqis so they want to get some of these, you know, generals with a good reputation.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ENSOR: Officials are hoping the move to hire more Sunnis with Ba'ath Party backgrounds will weaken support for the insurgents in the run-up to the transfer of sovereignty which is now just ten weeks away -- Aaron.

BROWN: How long does this process take? I assume it takes months if not more.

ENSOR: To hire these people?

BROWN: Yes.

ENSOR: Well, it's an ongoing process. They've already hired a bunch of generals just in the past week. There are going to be more hirings we are told. They're not changing the rules. They're just changing the way they are interpreting them.

BROWN: David, thank you, David Ensor in Washington.

Perhaps no case has been as difficult for the federal government to prosecute in the post-9/11 era than the case of Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in the United States in connection with the 9/11 attacks.

To defend himself, Moussaoui says he needs the testimony of al Qaeda leaders who are in U.S. custody somewhere something the Justice Department says would harm national security. Today, an appeals court ruled on the case giving the accused terrorist much of what he wanted and some of what he didn't want at all.

Here again, CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA (voice-over): The government's case against Zacarias Moussaoui is still on track. The appeals court ruled to lift sanctions imposed by the trial judge that would have prevented Moussaoui from facing the death penalty and would have kept all evidence regarding September 11 out of court but the appeals panel also said Moussaoui has the right to introduce testimony from these three top al Qaeda operatives who he says can help clear him.

FRANK DUNHAM, MOUSSAOUI'S ATTORNEY: The government has control of these witnesses. It's not like they're floating around out there in the world somewhere and nobody can find them.

ARENA: The government argued Moussaoui is not entitled to access to the detainees because they are in military custody outside the United States. Prosecutors offered written summaries of their interrogations instead.

Moussaoui's defense attorneys balked. So did the judge Leonie Brinkema ruling there could be no adequate substitute for live witness testimony but the appeals court disagreed and sent the case back to Brinkema so she could work out a compromise. JAYNE WEINTRAUB, ATTORNEY: What they've done is said basically well yes you're entitled to present mitigating evidence. You're entitled to show some part of the defense by introducing mitigation from witnesses outside the United States that you maintain are al Qaeda witnesses. However, we're not going to let you have the right of confrontation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARENA: Even though Moussaoui's lawyers call the ruling a positive step and a win-win, the government is studying the ruling and says that it's pleased its core position was upheld -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, let's talk about what compromise means here. It's not enough to have a statement from the al Qaeda people. There has to be some questioning. How is this going to happen?

ARENA: Well that is the big question, isn't it Aaron? We spoke with the lawyers representing Moussaoui today. They were not part of any negotiation in terms of any offer that was made to Brinkema before the district court. They are hopeful that with their involvement perhaps some compromise can be reached.

But the government has been pretty steadfast, Aaron, in its refusal to allow any unfettered access to these detainees charging that that would interrupt an interrogation, could compromise national security, and says that it would interfere with the administration's running of the war, the war on terror. So, it's going to be very interesting to see if a compromise can actually be reached.

BROWN: And just quickly, the government has always had a fall back position here, which is if necessary it could take this to a military tribunal and make a different set of rules.

ARENA: That's true.

BROWN: Does today's decision make that more likely, less likely or we don't know?

ARENA: We don't know, Aaron.

BROWN: OK.

ARENA: But I can tell you that they have tried mightily not to have that happen.

BROWN: Kelli, thank you, good to see you again, Kelli Arena tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, for most journalists I would say bringing down a president in scandal and having Robert Redford play you in the movie would be enough to last a lifetime but then most are not Bob Woodward. He joins us coming up.

And later, the power of pictures, and the line between public sorrow and political propaganda.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Bob Woodward's new book "Plan of Attack" has made a lot of news this week. It has also put the White House, which is a big fan of the book overall, in a bit of an awkward position.

The book, you've no doubt heard or read, suggests that the president made up his mind to go to war against Iraq last January, not March as they would -- the White House has always maintained.

It also suggests that Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the U.S. learned about the plans, the war plan and the decision, before the secretary of state learned about the decision. These revelations and others have set off a war of words of sorts. Some key White House officials called into action so you can call this a week of denials.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: To my knowledge, a decision had not been taken by the president to go to war at that meeting. There was certainly nothing I said that should have suggested that and any suggestion to the contrary would not be accurate.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: The question that has arisen seems to be that Prince Bandar received a briefing on the plan with some suggestion that I hadn't. Of course, I had. I was intimately familiar with the plan and I was aware that Prince Bandar was being briefed on the plan.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Secretary Powell had been privy to all of this. He knew what the war plan was. The only question was what was the president's thinking internally about whether the diplomacy was working and that's what I suggested that the president talk to Colin Powell about. This was not Mr. President you're going to war tomorrow. I think you better tell the secretary of state. It's just not right.

PRINCE BANDAR BIN SULTAN, SAUDI ARABIAN AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: And to be very honest with you, no BS, I've been in this town too long to know I should not tell you BS, I didn't know about the war actually except one hour before the attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: In addition to being an extraordinary piece of reporting, Mr. Woodward's book has become a classic ink blot test we think. The words are there in black and white for all to read and everyone sees in them what they want to see in them. What the words mean and what the people who said them now say they meant to say at the time have become a part of the story.

Bob Woodward joins us now. We are pleased to have him with us tonight, good to see you. Does it surprise you that everybody, whether they support the president and support the war or oppose the president and oppose the war, seem to come away with their case strengthened?

BOB WOODWARD, "WASHINGTON POST": Well, that's quite possible but if I can just respond to what you ran there. I mean part of this denial business is to deny things that I don't say. I never said or suggested, in fact the book says the opposite, Powell knew about the war plan.

What's interesting about this is the president himself is on record in the interviews I did with him saying that he decided at this point. He, in fact, called Powell in, in a 12-minute meeting to tell him it's war and said to Colin Powell it's time to put on your war uniform.

That doesn't mean that we're still planning and Powell left that meeting saying to himself he's going to do it and told others it was a very momentous meeting, so in a sense it's some of these people against their own president's words.

BROWN: Just a couple questions on that. That meeting, the Powell meeting, took place when and it took place relative to the Bandar meeting, two days after?

WOODWARD: Two days after, yes.

BROWN: And that was.

WOODWARD: Absolutely. I'm sorry.

BROWN: I'm sorry and that was in January, correct?

WOODWARD: That was Jan -- the meeting with Prince Bandar was January 11, Saturday in Dick Cheney's office. General Myers who is the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs before they kind of started this whatever they're doing here said publicly after the book came out that my account is essentially accurate.

For Secretary Rumsfeld to stand there and say he never said anything that suggested that war was coming in his on the record interviews with me he said precisely that. In fact, he told Prince Bandar, showing him the war plan, you can take this to the bank. It is going to happen. And then in the course of this very convoluted story, the Pentagon cut that part of the transcript out.

We ran it in the "Washington Post" and it's there for all to see. Now, you know, what's he saying and why is he doing this I'm not sure but the accurate account based on everything I've heard here and listened is what's in the book.

BROWN: Well, let me weigh in perhaps suggest why they're doing what they're doing. There are two issues here, one whether the secretary of state was so far out of the loop that an ambassador to Saudi Arabia heard about the decision to go to war before he did and I can see why they would be embarrassed by that and... WOODWARD: Well, maybe they ought to be but that -- listen, if you saw what the president said about this in the interview, Condi Rice was there and she said yes, I said to the president you better call Colin in, and now they're trying to say oh it's just call him in and kind of say that we're thinking aloud about war or that it's a maybe. Well, going to war with Iraq was a maybe for over a year as we well know.

BROWN: And the other part of that is that they have maintained all along the decision was made in March and that's important because the period, in their view, between January and March they were engaged in what they would like the world to believe was honest diplomacy, so I assume that's their reasoning.

WOODWARD: Well, yes, but I mean again and I think the book points this out and I think they would all agree there is a two or three track strategy in all of this and one is war planning and one is diplomacy and at times they reinforce each other and at times they contradict each other. There's no other way to do it.

I believe if during this period diplomacy had succeeded and Saddam Hussein and his sons and his inner circle had packed off to Egypt or someplace like that, we might not have had to have this war, so it was certainly possible that diplomacy could succeed. If you look at the onset of any war in history it has always been proceeded by some form of diplomacy.

BROWN: I want to talk about a couple of other things. In many ways, I think the book is about relationships. I want to talk about some of those. I need to take a break first, so we'll continue with Mr. Woodward after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We're back with reporter Bob Woodward and author Bob Woodward who's new book "Plan of Attack" has lots of people reading and lots of people talking.

You paint a picture of Secretary of State Powell as out of the loop. He heard about things late. His advice wasn't heeded. Have you ever wondered why he didn't resign? Did you ever ask him that?

WOODWARD: Well, the main reason Powell did not resign is because of the soldiers over there. If he were to resign, it would be a body blow to the morale of our troops. We are in the middle of a really -- the war continues and imagine yourself sitting over, you know, hunched down trying to protect yourself and you hear the great general, the former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Colin Powell has resigned as secretary of state.

You know then you would say, you know, it's unthinkable in Powell's ethic, in the soldier's code you don't do that. That's like you're running into the machine guns and the commander has said charge and take the hill.

You may disagree with it. You may not like it. You may think you're going to get killed. You may think your reputation is going to be wiped out but you keep going into the machine guns because that's what the soldier is trained to do and honorably will carry out the orders of the commander-in-chief.

BROWN: Let's talk then about the commander-in-chief. Did you ever ask the president if he had any second thoughts, any doubts about it all?

WOODWARD: Yes, I did.

In fact, I read to the president what Tony Blair had said, because Tony Blair, the president's partner in this war, at a party conference said, look, when you get letters from the family who has lost somebody in the Iraq war and they tell you that they hate you, you cannot avoid having some doubt.

And, as soon as I said that to the president, he's sitting there in the Oval Office, he kind of bounces in his chair a little bit and just says, no, no doubt whatsoever, period. You look at somebody and you look them in the eye, you look at all the other reporting you have done and you -- I've not found anyone who suggested that he has had any doubt at all.

BROWN: Does that kind of certainty surprise you?

WOODWARD: It is very unusual. And I think a lot of people will think that, hey, wait a minute, in our business, journalism, you live on doubt.

You have accord of it every day about everything you hear and see and do. And the president is running for reelection on this war and is running under this heading, as Karl Rove outlined the strategy to the president, which I described in the book, with the persona of a strong leader. And that's what this is all about.

BROWN: Does the president -- in the end, did the WMD issue really matter to the president or did he want this war because he has this belief that he is on the Earth in some respects, or the U.S. is on the Earth to free people?

WOODWARD: Well, that's what he says. He said, we have a duty to free people.

And I think the WMD was important. It was the articulated reason. It was why the U.N. was challenging Saddam Hussein initially in a unanimous resolution. And so that -- that's very critical. But in terms of what is at the core of George Bush's notion of his job as president, the duty to free people is at the center. Indeed, taking care of threats and protecting America is also there, but I think the other one is -- is the spin of him.

BROWN: Mr. Woodward, it's nice to see you. Congratulations.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

BROWN: It is a powerful and really interesting piece of work. Good for you.

WOODWARD: Thank you.

BROWN: Bob Woodward. The book is "Plan of Attack." Mr. Woodward will also be Larry's guest tomorrow. I think by now the headlines are out there, but it is the back stories that often I find fascinating. And we dealt with some of them tonight and I assume Larry will tomorrow as well.

Mr. Woodward book not included, this has been a tough time for the craft of journalism in some respects. Scandal at "New York Times" over Jayson Blair, at "USA Today" over star reporter Jack Kelley have been painful. It is therefore good to remind the world of journalism and you too that we are not simply the Blairs and the Kelleys. There are also the Mary McGrorys. The Washington columnist died yesterday. She was 85.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARY MCGRORY, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I think that Clinton should do something else.

BROWN (voice-over): At "The Washington Post" for the past 20 years and at the old "Washington Star" for more than three decades before that, from the Army-McCarthy hearings in the late '40s, to the war in Iraq in another century altogether, Mary McGrory did something more than just cover the big stories of the day. She crystallized them in acutely observed, beautifully written columns that were both diamond-hard and diamond-sharp.

Most of the great newspaper writers of her age, whether they agreed with her liberal views or not, nonetheless agreed on this. No one was better. It is, we think, a good thing that Ms. McGrory never broke the law. Where would a jury of her peers ever have been found? She had none.

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BROWN: As we said, Ms. McGrory died yesterday at 85.

Still to come tonight, American soldiers on their final journey home and the political fallout from the images.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, as you know, we do this every night. It is, we think, the least we or anyone can do, Democrat or Republican, for or against the war.

In that spirit, a woman working for a military contractor in Kuwait took pictures of coffins on their way home. She says she wanted to show the respect and the honor that they are given every step of the way. The pictures were published in "The Seattle Times" on Sunday. Other pictures like them have now made their way on to the Internet since. And the debate over showing them and the military withholding them has begun again.

From the Pentagon tonight, here is CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): These are pictures the Pentagon didn't want you to see, row on row of flag draped coffins on their final voyage home from Iraq.

The official Air Force photographs were taken for historical purposes and released to an anti-government secrecy Web site, the memoryhole.org under the Freedom of Information Act.

That release is now under review because it conflicts with official Pentagon policy banning news media coverage of the return of military remains. To some that policy seems misguided.

SEN. JOSEPH BIDEN (D), DELAWARE: The idea that they are essentially snuck back into the country under the cover of night so no one can see that their casket has arrived, I just think is wrong.

MCINTYRE: Since just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War with a few rare exceptions, the Pentagon has banned cameras at Dover Air Force Base or anyplace en route. Grave site coverage is permitted if the family agrees.

The Pentagon insists it's not trying to cover up the war's human cost but simply protecting the privacy of families and it has the support of the National Military Family Association.

In a statement, the organization says there is no apparent consensus among families about the policy and it believes the current policy is sensitive to the needs of the families.

This picture published on the front page of The Seattle Times last Sunday showing more than 20 flag-draped coffins resulted in a contract worker losing her job. After e-mailing the picture, taken earlier this month, to a friend the woman was fired along with her husband for what the contractor says was a violation of government and company regulations.

For the newspaper, publishing the picture was an easy call.

DAVID BOARDMAN, MANAGING EDITOR, "THE SEATTLE TIMES": The most amazing thing about it really is that everybody seems to be moved by it. What they see in it is largely a function of what they bring to it, so that some people see it as a strong anti-war statement. Other people see it very much as a picture that honors the soldiers who are over there.

BROWN (on camera): The Pentagon says they have nothing to apologize in trying to craft guidelines that balance the needs of the news media against the sensitivities of the families. And an official says there are no plans to review the policy.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A few more stories that made news around the world today, starting with an enormous train wreck and explosion at a train station in North Korea near the Chinese border. Because it is North Korea, both information and pictures are very tough to come by. We do have this still photo from an Asian network of the blast which apparently occurred when two fuel trains collided. There are reports that as many as 3,000 people died. Immediately after the explosion, North Korea's government cut the international phone lines to prevent the story from getting out.

Saudi authorities say three Islamic militants were killed in a shoot-out with police on the streets of Jeddah today. The men, who are believed to have been on the country's most wanted list, made their final stand at a construction site in a residential neighborhood.

And just as the new astronauts came on board, another gyroscope failed on the International Space Station, the second of four to go on the fritz, a blown circuit breaker to blame. A space walk will be needed to replace it.

Still ahead tonight, a look back to a time when television was black and white and politics was blood sport.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A moment now to reflect on a time when the fear wasn't terrorism, but communism and the response was another "ism," McCarthyism.

Looking back, historians now agree, as much as historians can agree, we suppose, that there really was something to be scared of. The Rosenbergs probably were spies, Alger Hiss almost certainly so. And Joe McCarthy might have been and to something, even if he probably hadn't the slightest idea what.

But if the view of time has evolved, the take on the man has not. He was a drunkard, a bully and a brute. We bring it up now because 50 years ago at a crucial moment in the history of television and the country, Joe McCarthy got his comeuppance.

Here is CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You took us down the road to....

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): Even in the first days, TV had proven its political punch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Eisenhower.

BROWN: The tumultuous 1952 conventions attracted millions and Richard Nixon saved his political career that year.

RICHARD NIXON: People have got to have confidence.

GREENFIELD: With his famous Checkers speech.

But for pure political theater, no one had ever seen anything like the confrontation between a powerful senator and the United States Army that played out 50 years ago this spring in a Senate committee hearing.

Brandeis, Professor Tom Doherty, author of "Cold War, Cool Medium," a book on McCarthy and the media:

THOMAS DOHERTY, AUTHOR, "COLD WAR, COOL MEDIUM": People who had never tuned into TV with quite that avidness before found themselves being almost hypnotized by these hearings as they went on. There are stories of housewives neglecting their work so they could catch the afternoon show. For an entire generation, it was the first time they confronted the full force of TV as a special medium.

SEN. JOSEPH MCCARTHY (R), WISCONSIN: Communist conspiracy.

GREENFIELD: On one side, Wisconsin Senator Joseph McCarthy and his brilliant 25-year-old counsel Roy Cohn, who had spent years investigating alleged subversion in all corners of government, now accusing high-ranking Army officials of covering up communism in the military.

On the other side, the Army, and its special counsel, the portly Boston Brahman Joseph Welch, accusing Cohn of seeking special favors for a recently drafted good friend.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I haven't the slightest intention of being quiet.

GREENFIELD: The substance was quickly overwhelmed by the theater, captured in the movie "Point of Order," McCarthy repeatedly interrupting with what became a national catchphrase.

MCCARTHY: Mr. Chairman, point of order.

GREENFIELD: Attorney Joseph Welch using his hawkish wit...

JOSEPH WELCH, ATTORNEY: Did you think this came from a pixie?

GREENFIELD: ... to attack his opponents, including this not-so- veiled hint at Roy Cohn's' private life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If I'm (UNINTELLIGIBLE) pixie.

WELCH: I should say, Mr. Senator, that a pixie is a close relative of a fairy.

GREENFIELD: But the weeks of charges and countercharges were all overshadowed by a single moment in June, when McCarthy, breaking an agreement, raised the political past of a Welch associate. WELCH: Little did I dream you could be so reckless.

GREENFIELD: And Welch destroyed the Senator's career in this moment.

WELCH: Senator, I think I never really gauged your cruelty or your recklessness.

Let us not assassinate this land further, Senator. You've done enough. Have you no sense of decency, sir?

DOHERTY: You can actually see clips of Roy Cohn agonizing, trying to signal McCarthy to shut up, because he knows this is just going to be a devastating moment. And, in memory, anyway, that is the moment where you can sort of see the end of Joseph McCarthy, who is self-immolated on live television.

GREENFIELD (on camera): We also saw something else. We saw how the visual message, the jowly, semi-shaven, gravel-voiced intimidating senator, vs. the cool, calm, courtly lawyer could wind up being the most important message of all. And that is a lesson that continues to shape American politics and journalist half a century later.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

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(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, not much time for morning papers today, and a lot of cool ones. Time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world.

We will begin with "The International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times" in Paris. This is an unbelievably good story right in the center of the paper. "Japanese Are Cold to Free Hostages." These are the three hostages taken in Iraq who were returned to Japan. They're receiving messages like: "You got what you deserve. You are Japan's shame." This is from Japanese citizens saying this to them. "You cause trouble for everyone." I suspect that will be front page "New York Times" tomorrow. That is an -- it says something about the culture and I'm not sure what it is. But it is just an unbelievably good story.

"The Christian Science Monitor." We've taken to this paper of late, haven't we? "Marines Poised For Fallujah Offensive" is their lead. And they do a sidebar on the war, "A General of Taps and Tears. General a Veteran of Wars, But Also of Grief." He visits many of the families who have lost loved ones in Iraq and Afghanistan, I guess.

"Dallas Morning News" also leads with the war locally. "After a Year in Iraq, Fort Hood Task Force is Back, Riding High at Home." They were on a ferris wheel, I guess, when the shot was taken. "4th Infantry Losses, Job to be Done, Tempered Joy, a Festive Reunion." Also, the coffin story is on the front page. "Couple Fired For Photo of G.I.'s Coffin." It does strike me that if they wanted to keep that story -- that picture out of the public eye, they have not done a very good job of it.

How are we doing on time? Thank you.

"Detroit Free Press." "I'm An Innocent Guy, Says the Macomb County Prosecutor, But Marlinga" -- I hope I pronounced that right, because I hate to pronounce anyone's name who has been charged with a crime -- "Is Charged in Rape Case Payoffs." Always bad when the prosecutor gets charged, isn't it?

"The Philadelphia Inquirer." "Jackson's Secret Indictment At Issue." The star's attorney had objected to secrecy of the grand jury investigation. And, once again, the coffin story on the front page of "The Philadelphia Inquirer."

And the weather tomorrow in Chicago, "same old, same old." Beats me. Some day, I'll figure out why I end the segment that way.

We'll wrap up the day in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A quick look at our top story tonight, a relatively quiet day in Iraq. And that's news.

The death toll from yesterday's suicide bombs in Basra now stands at 73, much mourning today, hundreds more hospitalized. In the flash- point city of Fallujah, U.S. military officials say not nearly enough heavy weapons have been handed over, as dictated by the cease-fire agreement. Coalition force -- an official, rather, saying today time is running out for a peaceful solution -- calm for now, but tense.

Tomorrow, on this program, a remarkable war story from more than a half a end century ago, 12 U.S. sailors, one German submarine. The sailors captured the sub. We'll hear from four of the heroes -- that and much more on NEWSNIGHT tomorrow, 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Tomorrow is Friday, isn't it? Morning papers and the tabloids, too.

That's our report for tonight. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for most of you.

We're all back here tomorrow. And we hope that includes you, 10:00 Eastern time.

Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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