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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Six U.S. Soldiers Face Criminal Charges for Abusing Iraqi Prisoners; American Troops Attacked Near Najaf; President Visits Michigan

Aired May 03, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
I didn't write this page tonight. It was written instead by a viewer. It is a viewer who writes me often, sometimes agreeing with what we do, often not. I've done a little bit of editing here for time but this is what he wrote.

As one who supported Bush's war on terrorism and the Iraq invasion, I am very disturbed by what I see happening now. Iraqi citizens are still being tortured in Saddam's jails now by Americans. An Iraqi general, with Saddam's moustache no less, is in charge of Fallujah.

Aaron, I ran cell blocks in federal prisons for over 20 years and never saw anything like this and there is no excuse for it, a complete breakdown in command and control. Is this, he writes, what we went to war for and is this what we get at the cost of hundreds of American soldiers dead?

The Marines are pulled back from victory in Fallujah. This is perceived as a victory in the Arab world. Didn't Bush learn anything from Beirut and Somalia? Now we look both cruel and weak, the worst possible combination if we hope to effect change in the Arab world.

And he closed this way. I vote Republican, am hawkish on foreign policy, so if someone like me is asking these questions, the administration is heading for an election problem.

I don't support what I'm seeing in Iraq. I'm sure others are asking these questions. I trust you're doing well. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on page two. Take care, John.

If the administration has lost John, it has lost a lot over the last few weeks and nothing in today's news is likely to win him back.

The prison begins the whip and CNN's Jamie McIntyre starts us off, Jamie a headline please.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, as it stands now, six soldiers have been reprimanded, six more facing criminal charges for sexually humiliating and otherwise abusing Iraqi prisoners but another investigation just underway is looking at who or what might have been the real problem.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

On to the war that hasn't ended and one of the other flashpoints in that war CNN's Jane Arraf with the fighting in Najaf, Jane a headline.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, in this holy city a drama is playing out involving U.S. forces massed here as a warning to a radical Shia leader and his armed followers and a militia that's testing the limits of what the United States will do here.

BROWN: Jane, thank you.

Mississippi next and two war stories, one bitter, one sweet, CNN's Bob Franken on that tonight, Bob a headline.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, two men coming back from Mississippi to their homes -- coming back from Iraq to their homes here in Mississippi, a story about the short distance between celebration and devastation.

BROWN: Bob, thank you.

And finally to Michigan, a battleground state in this election year, one the president visited again today. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King there, John the headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the last Republican to carry this state running for president was this president's father George Bush, but Mr. Bush tonight in the Detroit suburbs where they coined the term Reagan Democrat sounding much more like Ronald Reagan, saying John Kerry is soft on defense and will raise your taxes -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program on this Monday night, the civilians in Iraq possibly doing uncivil work, just what is CACI and what part is it playing in the prison scandal?

Angry voices in the Arab world, not surprising perhaps they're even more upset than those here in the United States.

And when the rooster crows, you know what time it is, yep, morning papers, your morning papers for tomorrow, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with a prison in Baghdad and the repercussions of what went on there. They are playing out on a number of fronts tonight, not the least of which is here at home.

A half dozen investigations underway, disturbing questions being asked about who condoned what and who might have said no but did not, troubling questions too about the role of private contractors.

We have several reports tonight beginning at the Pentagon and CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): So far, six soldiers, including some officers, have been reprimanded effectively ending their military careers and six others including some military police seen in the photos are facing court martial on criminal charges.

But according to lawyers for the accused and a general who was in charge of the prison, the MPs were following orders of U.S. military intelligence officers or the civilians they hired.

BRIG. GEN. JANIS KARPINSKI, COMMANDER, 800TH MILITARY POLICE BRIG.: I don't know how they do this. I don't know how they allowed these activities to get so out of control but I do know with almost absolute confidence that they didn't wake up one day and decide to do this.

MCINTYRE: But the Nuremberg defense, "I was just following orders," is no excuse according to U.S. commanders who say the pictures are in themselves an offense.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: What they were doing in those photos was absolutely wrong, deplorable, and they should be investigated and prosecuted.

MCINTYRE: Sources say some witnesses testifying before military proceedings have detailed instances in which Iraqi prisoners were forced to engage in or simulate humiliating sexual acts, including oral sex and the fact that some of the people responsible could be contract workers, not subject to military or Iraqi justice raises troubling questions of accountability according to legal experts.

ROBERT GOLDMAN, LAW PROFESSOR, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: This is very problematic. This is very problematic because when you are in a situation, particularly in an occupation situation, these people become identified with the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon insists it began the investigation of prisoner abuse back in January, immediately after those photographs were turned in by a concerned U.S. soldier but the wider investigation taking a look at the military intelligence aspect didn't begin until ten days ago, about the same time the Pentagon learned that those photographs were going to be shown on television -- Aaron.

BROWN: Two questions. Any explanation why the military intelligence part of this didn't start until ten days ago?

MCINTYRE: No, except that what we can gather is that this came up in the defense offered by some of the accused who have already gone through preliminary hearings and are facing court martial. It's not clear why they haven't focused on that until now and, up until this point, no military intelligence people have been identified as suspects or accused of any wrongdoing. BROWN: Is there -- just a second question here. Is there any indication that this sort of activity, that this problem extends beyond Iraq and into Afghanistan where there are also many detainees being held at Bagram?

MCINTYRE: Well, of course, if you take the statements of the Pentagon at face value, they say there's no evidence of any widespread problem but, of course, they didn't seem to know about this problem before it happened.

And we are aware of the deaths of detainees and complaints of abuse in Afghanistan, as well as other places in Iraq and presumably those incidents, which are under investigation, will get a more serious look given the context of what's happened here.

BROWN: Let me ask you one more thing. How shaken, if that's the right word, is it over at the Pentagon by all of this?

MCINTYRE: Oh, I think it's pretty devastating. The mood of the people I've talked to here, I mean they just feel this couldn't have been a worse thing to happen at a worse time. One military officer I talked to today just shook his head and said, "If we have any friends left in the Middle East, it's a wonder to me."

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

In his piece running in "New Yorker" magazine that came out today, Sy Hirsch quotes a veteran military investigator talking about the kind of humiliation prisoners were subject to at Abu Ghraib Prison.

In the end, he says, it's counterproductive. They tell you what you want to hear, truth or no truth and, in the end, there's a price to be paid for the jailed and the jailers alike.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Army Reserve General Janis Karpinski was in command of the 26 American prisons in Iraq, including the infamous Abu Ghraib.

KARPINSKI: I certainly take the responsibility for some of this, yes, because those soldiers were assigned to a company under my command. Blame, I don't think that the blame rests with me or with the 800th MP Brigade.

BROWN: That is the jailers' version and now for this jailed.

Abbas (ph) was so embarrassed by his treatment in Abu Ghraib he didn't even want his face on camera. He told CNN's Ben Wedeman that Americans would put plastic cuffs on prisoners and leave them outside in the rain for hours in an effort to humiliate them.

Hadar Sabar Ali (ph) says he was one of the naked men in the photographs. He even points himself out. He says they were accused of beating another prisoner, someone suspected of spying for the Americans. He claims to have been hit, hit hard but perhaps the greatest pain was not physical.

He describes how their clothes were cut off and he says, "We are Muslims. We don't even go naked in front of our families but there we were naked in front of American women and men."

The mother of another prisoner covers her face as she sees the photographs on television. She says, "I felt as if that could be Jesus being crucified and I thought that could be my son."

General Karpinski is still proud, still fighting for her unit's honor, an honor that is quickly, perhaps inevitably fading.

KARPINSKI: And I say that because I had 3,400 soldiers, NCOs, officers working for me who were determined and proud to prove that the Army Reserve and the National Guard could do this against sometimes seemingly insurmountable odds and I was the champion for their cause.

I was their commander and they told me that and they were proud of me. And to take it away over something that is ill placed and misdirected then I think that that's a travesty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The general has more to say on all of this and you can see the entire interview with her tomorrow morning on "AMERICAN MORNING" starting at 7:00 Eastern time here on CNN.

Meantime the war goes on. An American soldier died today in a shootout south of Baghdad, a Marine was killed near Fallujah, bringing the number of fatalities due to enemy action to 554 of the more than 700 Americans who have died since the war began.

And, in Najaf, troops endured a withering mortar attack only to stop short of answering in kind. There are reasons for this.

In Baghdad, here's CNN's Jane Arraf.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): The most intense attack by Muqtada al-Sadr's militia since U.S. forces moved into this base in Najaf three weeks ago. One mortar round hit this abandoned hospital. The only occupants were the dead left in the morgue here after the Mehdi Army overran it last month.

LT. COL. PAT WHITE, 2ND BATTALION, 37TH REGIMENT: We've had about 30 mortar rounds during the attack in various locations in the city coming in at us and then, of course, everybody grabbed their AK and jumped up on the roof to fire at us as well.

ARRAF: The problem for U.S. Army soldiers in the middle of a crowded Shia city was firing back.

COL. BRAD MAY, 2ND ARMORED CAVALRY REGIMENT: The particular position we're in right now is the central part of the city and what you have is the holy sites essentially on either flank of us and we've been very careful to avoid contact inside the holy sites out of respect for religion.

ARRAF: The Army didn't use its artillery or attack helicopters. These two Apaches took fire from rocket-propelled grenades. The Army says they returned safely to base. U.S. military officials say firing has come from essentially all directions around this U.S. base.

(on camera): They say they even pinpointed mortar rounds coming from the courtyard of a mosque in Kufa. They say they did not fire back.

(voice-over): For hours, Salvadoran snipers working with the United States fired from the perimeter. The Army used only small arms and tank-mounted weapons. Workers reinforced the building housing a handful of civilian coalition officials who have stayed here under daily attack since Sadr seized Najaf and Kufa in April.

PHIL KOSNETT, COALITION PROVISION AUTHORITY: Our union is fond of saying that more American ambassadors have died in action than American generals since the end of World War II. There's more to being a modern American diplomat than conference tables and cocktail parties.

ARRAF: With the constant attack it seems unlikely coalition officials will be sitting around a conference table discussing withdrawal of militia forces anytime soon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: And not to mention the challenge of fighting against an enemy that is playing by much looser rules, very tough situation for the U.S. here -- Aaron.

BROWN: How frustrated are soldiers by all of this? They're sitting there unable in effect to really defend themselves.

ARRAF: It is a really interesting situation because we have to remember these aren't just soldiers who have gone here to fight this battle. They've been here for a year and a lot of them have come from Baghdad and part of the reason they were sent here and part of the reason that they were told they wouldn't be going home, they had to stay over, is they've got a lot of experience doing it.

So, they're here. They see a clear enemy. There's a certain frustration that we see when we go out with these guys about the fact that they can't really fire back as much as they'd like. They can't be as aggressive as they'd like.

They do seem to understand the overall picture, which is kind of amazing given how young so many of them are but they understand but it still does seem very frustrating for them -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jane, thank you, Jane Arraf in Najaf tonight.

On to Fallujah, where just a couple of weeks ago Marines were poised to invade, now they are poised to withdraw leaving Iraqi troops under Iraqi command, which in and of itself has become somewhat of a problem.

"Time" magazine's Paul Quinn-Judge has been reporting on that and he joins us tonight from Baghdad. It's good to see you. I want to get to Fallujah in a second. How much, as you wander around Baghdad as you talk to people, how much is the prison story playing there these days?

PAUL QUINN-JUDGE, "TIME" MAGAZINE REPORTER: I think it's only begun to play in fact. There's always been, there's been a growing impression here, a growing stereotype that the coalition forces are occupiers not liberators. That was already forming a few weeks ago. I think it's going to get more and more entrenched as we go along.

Therefore, I think we're going to see a lot more anger and I think the -- I think the pictures are just going to provide the new, the new benchmark for this stereotype, this very negative stereotype that everybody who is here from the west is going to be facing, military and civilian.

BROWN: Let's move up and over to Fallujah for a bit because you were there for a bit. Did you have a sense the Marines were frustrated at the idea that they weren't going to finish what they started?

QUINN-JUDGE: They were pretty frustrated last week when the word came that they were going to pull back and that an Iraqi unit was going to take over the operations around and in the city.

They had been preparing, in fact, for a major assault late last week. They were preparing for that. They thought they would probably be going in maybe early this week, maybe about now. I don't know.

Essentially, their frustration was based on the feeling that sooner or later, maybe a month from now, maybe two, they would be back in the same positions preparing for the same attack on Fallujah having given their adversaries more time to prepare for them. It was already going to be a very nasty battle. They think the second time around it could be even worse.

BROWN: Were they and perhaps you surprised at the sophistication of their adversaries?

QUINN-JUDGE: I was and I think they were as well. They kept on saying this is not a bunch of local farmers trying to get something together fast. They felt the people firing on them and the base I was in was fired at a lot of the time, there was incoming every day, the people firing at them were sophisticated in military tactics.

They had crisscrossing lines of machine gun fire. They had an informal but very good system of coordination and command and their intelligence was very good. The Marines felt that they were under surveillance at all times and that the other side knew as soon as they were moving.

BROWN: Were they foreigners or were they Iraqi soldiers, Republican Guard, security people, whatever?

QUINN-JUDGE: Can't tell. Where we were they were firing at us and you didn't have time to chat to them or even see their faces. Local people around the base who had had contact with the other side had described them as local people.

Most Iraqis we talk to feel that the bulk of the fighting, if not all the fighting in Fallujah, is being done by small interlocking groups of local people, often organized around their mosques or their districts.

BROWN: And this issue about who is going to run the Iraqi security people that are now responsible for this, is it a settled question tonight?

QUINN-JUDGE: Settled question for whom?

BROWN: I'm -- well, has the CPA or the military decided who the general will be that will command the Iraqi troops?

QUINN-JUDGE: They're still trying to work that one out. They tried General Saleh, who was given some substantial praise over the weekend by General Conway, the commander of the Marines. They've dumped him. They're looking at a colonel or a general he's now being called, Mohammed Latif (ph).

The bottom line is as of yesterday we had colleagues going into Fallujah who said there was no sign of any new unit. There was no sign of the ICDC. The only people on the streets, once you got past the U.S. and one Iraqi checkpoint, were the mujahadin. They were in control of the city. They were very bad tempered and they were expecting another fight.

BROWN: Paul, it's good to have you with us. Thank you. Be safe. Thank you.

QUINN-JUDGE: Thank you.

BROWN: This is a story that seems to prove that in a time of war, and we're in one, joy is short lived. Thomas Hamill, the Mississippi dairy farmer who was taken hostage in Iraq escaped his captors over the weekend his three week ordeal over. In his hometown there was plenty of rejoicing. But, as we said, in time of war, joy is short lived and in a town not far from Mr. Hamill's the joy quickly turned to grief.

Here's CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Two front page stories from Iraq in the local paper. One describes Tommy Hamill's escape from captivity and the exhilarating relief back home in Macon, Mississippi.

HAMILL: I will let you know I've spoke with my husband. He is fine. He's doing well. FRANKEN: Less than 40 miles away in Columbus, Mississippi, the other story of another family and the knock on the door with crushing news.

JIM DAYTON, FATHER OF JEFF DAYTON: When those three sergeants came in and told me about Jeff, I mean my heart just felt like it was going to explode.

FRANKEN: Sergeant Jeff Dayton was another of the hundreds killed in Iraq his life now searingly painful memories of letters, pictures.

JIM DAYTON: I'll never get to talk to him again. I'll never get to hug him and it's just a helpless feeling.

JEREMY DAYTON, BROTHER OF JEFF DAYTON: I'm still in disbelief that it even happened. When I first found out I just, I don't know, I couldn't imagine going on.

FRANKEN: Jeff was a hero to his younger brother Jeremy. The family is trying to cope with his loss by telling the world how proud they were of him, they are of him, yet embracing the spirit of the celebration down the road.

JEREMY DAYTON: It feels good knowing that some people can get some relief.

FRANKEN: But now the first questions are registering.

JIM DAYTON: Once you lose a son, I don't know it's funny, you have to think gee this is -- you feel helpless and it's almost senseless.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Two men coming home to Mississippi from Iraq, one to celebration, one to sadness, overwhelming sadness -- Aaron.

BROWN: What do we know about how Jeff Dayton died?

FRANKEN: He died in a car bombing along with seven others, so seven others who will also not be rejoining their families.

BROWN: Bob, thank you, Bob Franken in Mississippi tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT on this Monday, the civilian contractors in Iraq caught up in the scandal over the photos of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners. What was their involvement?

And the repercussions in a world already inclined to think the worst about the United States in some cases. We take a break first.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We said earlier the Iraqi prison case has many strands and this is another. Some of the responsibility may fall on non- government workers, civilian contractors working at the prison who allegedly were involved in the interrogations and may have told the MPs to soften up or loosen up the detainees in an effort to make the questioning easier and more fruitful. These workers are not subject to military justice and may not be held legally accountable by anyone.

Here's CNN's Kathleen Koch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An uncle of one soldier accused in the alleged abuse says his nephew told him he tried to complain and that he was told by superior officers to follow instructions from civilians, contract workers interrogating the Iraqi prisoners.

WILLIAM LAWSON, UNCLE, SSG IVAN "CHIP" FREDERICK: They said go back down there. Do what the civilian contractors tell you to do and don't interfere with them and loosen these soldiers up for interrogation.

KOCH: Now, defense contractors CACI International has hired outside counsel to investigate its employees' actions in connection with the abuse allegations. The Arlington, Virginia based company won't say how many of its employees worked at Abu Ghraib Prison.

CACI advertises for interrogators on its Web site. It says it is cooperating with the military investigations but has "received no information of any pending actions against any CACI employee's performance relating to prisoner abuse matters." Legal experts say private contractors are subject to international law but a former CIA officer insists contractors fall into a legal gray area.

ROBERT BAER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, there is no accountability obviously. If it was private contractors, they don't fall under American law and they don't fall under Iraqi law.

KOCH: Industry representatives say contractors are hired because they are better and cheaper but still need supervision.

DOUG BROOKS, INTERNATIONAL PEACE OPERATIONS: Presumably the interrogators they were using were former military people themselves so they have ten or 15 years' experience in the military and then when they get out and retire, the military needs them for, you know, some of their expanded operations so they'll bring these people in but I think it's important to remember that whenever you hire a contractor they should be under the military's command.

KOCH (on camera): Senior Pentagon officials say at least two military investigations are looking into whether or not private contractors had a role in the alleged abuses.

Kathleen Koch, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Just heard briefly from William Lawson whose nephew Staff Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick has been charged in the scandal and faces possible court martial. Mr. Lawson joins us now from (unintelligible) Maryland. It's good to see you, sir.

LAWSON: Good evening, Aaron.

BROWN: Chip is a corrections officer so he has some experience in these matters. Why did he go along with it?

LAWSON: Why did he go along with the photographs, Aaron?

BROWN: Yes, and what we see in the photographs.

LAWSON: Well, the interrogators wanted results and he did not want to physically abuse the prisoner so somehow these seven soldiers came up with the idea, and I don't know who came up with the idea, of taking photographs and using those photographs to show new prisoners that this can happen to you. Now some of those photographs are real and some of them are staged.

BROWN: When you say staged what are you saying here?

LAWSON: Well, the ones with the thumbs-up and stuff are just staged to show to the new Iraqi prisoners. The picture of the gentleman in ice, the Iraqi prisoner, he was never checked into the prison system. He was never given a number under the Geneva Convention.

He was taken and given right to the interrogators who took him in and interrogated him until he had a heart attack and died. They packed him in ice, kept him until the next day, brought in a military ambulance, pulled him out of the ice, put a fake IV in his arm and brought him out of the prison as a wounded Iraqi prisoner. So, for all intents and purposes this person doesn't exist. He was killed.

BROWN: Another part of this investigation. Let's go back to the things that Chip told you. He wrote to you about some of the things that they had been -- that they had done or had been asked to do in an effort to loosen up, I think is the term he used, the Iraqis. Can you describe those things?

LAWSON: Well, there was probably things like sleep deprivation. He didn't like the idea of having them stand on boxes because he told the civilian interrogators what will they do to sleep? And the interrogators said let them stand there. Now one guy stood on a box for three days before he fell down.

BROWN: Did Chip know it was wrong?

LAWSON: Yes, he did and he also agrees that he bears a small portion of responsibility for what has happened here. He had no training in Arab customs. He had no type of training whatsoever by anybody in the chain of command on handling prisoners of war or anything else. He requested regulations. He requested a copy of the Geneva Convention. He got no help and he was told you go back down there and you get results and you do what those civilian contractors tell you and they want results and you do whatever it takes to get them.

He's not the type of person to be violent with prisoners, so this was the least physical way that he could interrogate these prisoners and loosen them up for the interrogators.

BROWN: Mr. Lawson, we wish you nothing but the best. I know it's a difficult time for you. Thank you very much, sir.

LAWSON: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you.

Coming up on the program still outrage and anger anti-American sentiment as you could imagine, the Arab world now reacting to photos shown around the world.

And, around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A U.S.-sponsored television station in Iraq has barely mentioned the prisoner abuse scandal, which hardly means that the people there don't know about it. Whether it is Iraq itself or elsewhere in the Arab world, the story plays to the worst thinking about Americans and the American occupation of Iraq. There is in the end no way to spin this. The administration and the military must simply ride it out as best it can.

Here is CNN's Rula Amin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The pictures were on almost every newscast in every Arab country. Grodielo (ph) works for a Beirut bank.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's horrible. It's horrible.

AMIN: Ayman (ph) sells eyeglasses in Amman (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw that, that was despicable, disgusting, unbelievable, inhuman, that shows how bad the Americans are.

AMIN: As an Arab, I was very provoked, says this business man, every Arab was. It's sheer humiliation. U.S. condemnation of any mistreatment helps little.

(on camera): And not just because of the abuse, but also because the pictures of Arab men, naked, kneeling and bending on all fours, touched on a sensitive chord in the conservative religious Arab culture here. Many say it was a matter of dignity. (voice-over): ArabNet said they found some former prisoners shown in the pictures. The men said they had not told their families of the abuse, too embarrassing said one.

HAMZA MANSOUR, ISLAMIC OPPOSITION LEADER (through translator): The American administration came to protect the Iraqi citizens and restore their rights as they claim, but the hell of the previous regime seem to be better than the paradise of American administration.

AMIN: One analyst in Beirut says the pictures badly damaged U.S. efforts to sell democracy in the region.

ALI HAMIDI, BEIRUT ANALYST: These scenes perhaps of torture are not new in our region, but coming from the American, it was new.

ABDUL SALAM MALHAS, BEIRUT ANALYST: I believe that when America had the chance to show its new face, they showed it with what we have seen on the TV screens.

AMIN: Newspaper headlines read: The prisoners candle reveals the crimes of the occupation, headlines and images that give new ammunition of those opposed to the United States and its occupation in Iraq.

Rula Amin, CNN, Beirut.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Other news tonight, an unsung survivor in the war on terrorism faced his attacker in a courtroom in New York City today. For prison guard Louis Pepe, it was justice done, even though it in no way undoes the brutality he suffered.

For his attacker, a high-ranking member of al Qaeda, it was simpler, 32 years in prison.

Here is CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He lost 70 percent of his speech. But when jail guard Louis Pepe describes attack that almost left his dead, his words are clear.

LOUIS PEPE, VICTIM: You know how many times they hit me? I hate to say at least bam, bam, bam, bam.

FEYERICK: It happened November 2000 on the maximum security floor of Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional Center. Pepe was escorting al Qaeda terror suspect Mamdouh Mahmud Salim.

PEPE: You always gotta look, because you never know what they're going to do.

FEYERICK: Salim and his cell mate attacked Pepe, fighting to get the officer's keys as he struggled not to let go. PEPE: Never, never, never, never. Even if they kill me, I'm not going to do it.

FEYERICK: Salim ultimately stabbed the officer in the eye with a comb he had sharpened into a knife. Prosecutors say Salim worked closely with Osama bin Laden, creating al Qaeda and running its training camps. Salim was in jail preparing to stand trial with four terrorists later convicted for the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in East Africa.

Before the trial, Salim assaulted Pepe, he says to attack his lawyers waiting in another room and get them replaced. The guard lost his left eye and suffered brain damage.

EILEEN TROTTA, SISTER OF PEPE: He's the prisoner now, not Salim.

FEYERICK: Salim pleaded guilty to attempted murder and at his sentencing Pepe begged the judge to give him life in prison shouting at his attacker: "You're no good. I am dead. Do you understand that? I am dead."

After several outbursts, Pepe was led out of court by federal marshals. Three dozen jail guards who had come to show support walked out in protest.

Given a chance to speak, Salim said through an Arabic interpreter, "To cause someone to lose an eye is not something you can just apologize for." Calling the attack and appalling, Judge Deborah Batts sentenced Salim to 32 years in prison. He still faces terror conspiracy charges. No trial date has been set.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, back on the campaign trail. Mr. Bush, the president makes room for Mr. Bush the candidate.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: President Bush began a bus tour through two key swing states, Michigan and Ohio. Michigan, which is reeling from thousands of lost manufacturing jobs, was the first stop.

Here is our senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Rolling through western Michigan, a president who knows tough times make his case for reelection a tougher sells.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Michigan lags behind. And I fully understand that. KING: Up close with voters in tiny Niles near the Indiana border, and getting help promoting his tax cuts as just the tonic the economy needed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were able to go ahead and make -- get a new washer and dryer.

BUSH: New washer and dryer. Somebody had to make the washer and dryer.

KING: Michigan was a major disappointment for Mr. Bush four years ago and is a major challenge now. Al Gore carried the state by five points. And during the Bush presidency, Michigan has lost 136,000 manufacturing jobs and its unemployment has rate shot up to 6.9 percent.

ED SARPOLUS, POLLSTER: Here in Michigan, we lost probably the brunt of the manufacturing jobs and we're having the slowest turnaround bringing this economy back. And also, on a regular weekly basis, we're talking about companies closing down or shipping out jobs.

KING: Launching his first full-scale campaign trip here was meant to send a message that Michigan is a major target. On the bus, interviews with local media, and, after rolling into Kalamazoo, an appeal for help and a sober assessment of the six months to come.

BUSH: I'm running against an experienced candidate. I'm not going take him lightly. He is a worthy opponent.

KING: The auto industry is bread and butter in this state, so the president tailored his theme that Democrat John Kerry changes with the wind that helps him win votes.

Here in Michigan recently, the president says, Senator Kerry bragged about owning an SUV, then, on Earth Day:

BUSH: He said, I don't own an SUV. To clear up the confusion, he said this. "The family has it. I don't have it."

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: In other words, doesn't have an SUV except when he's in Michigan.

KING: Western Michigan is critical to Republicans in statewide elections.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Also critical, the suburbs just north of Detroit. It was here 20 years ago they coined the term Reagan Democrat. Tonight, Aaron, one of the biggest and enthusiastic crowds for the president in this campaign, Mr. Bush delivering some of his most spirited, pointed attacks on Senator Kerry, characterizing him as soft on defense and, again, borrowing from the Ronald Reagan playbook, saying a Kerry presidency would be a guarantee of higher taxes -- Aaron.

BROWN: What about the war? Does the war come up in any of these questions and answers with citizens?

KING: The war comes up in just about every speech. And Mr. Bush today though in public did not refer to this prison scandal unfolding, this morning we did learn he called Secretary Rumsfeld this morning and the president sent his press secretary out to tell reporters he's demanding an investigation, that those responsible be held accountable.

In the speeches today, the president was most adamant in stressing sovereignty will be turned over on June 30 and in stressing what he believes the overall character and integrity of the U.S. forces in Iraq -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you, our senior White House correspondent, John King.

A couple quick business items before we head to break, starting with the guilty verdict against investment banker Frank Quattrone. Jurors concluded that he obstructed justice by forwarding co-workers at Credit Suisse First Boston an e-mail encouraging them to clean up their files, if you know what I mean, at the time he was aware a federal investigation into -- was getting under way into his team.

Medicare discount cards became available today, but not without a heavy dose of confusing. They have the potential for saving seniors as much as 30 percent on prescription drugs, but there are lots of plans to choose from. And what is more, many seniors don't even know the program exists.

The markets did OK in advance of the Federal Reserve meeting, where inflation and interest rates are expected to be on the agenda. Markets up. We'll see how they do tomorrow after the Fed.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, quite possibly the worst possible pictures at the worst possible time. Get some perspective from Jeff Greenfield after the break.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We began tonight talking about a note from a viewer. And another note from a different viewer fits here as well. "When looking at the prison pictures," he asked, "so what? Nothing they did compares to the mutilation of the four American contractors in Fallujah." Well, that is true, literally. Culturally, however, it is a different matter.

Here is our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): It sounds like an important question. Were these the aberrant actions of a few? Yes, says the chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: It is really a shame that just a handful can besmirch the reputation of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers.

GREENFIELD: Some press reports in "The New Yorker Magazine" and elsewhere recount a more systemic problem, a breakdown in the command structure. But, in the end, it may not matter much where it will count the most, in what these pictures say to so many in the Muslim world. We can say it quite clearly.

If Osama bin Laden had Adobe Photoshop software and wished to construct the most damaging possible images, the images most designed to inflame rage, he could not have done better, given the way some in the Muslim world deal with women, sexuality and pride.

Consider, this is Mohamed Atta, ringleader of the 9/11 attacks. In the last will left behind at Boston's Logan Airport, he said -- quote -- "I don't want any woman to go my grave. I don't want a pregnant woman to come and say goodbye to me." And he asked that -- quote -- "The person who will wash my body wear gloves so he won't touch my genitals.'

(on camera): Consider, in March 2002, 15 girls burned to death in a middle school in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. News reports said that some of the girls were prevented from escaping by the religious police, those who enforce the rigid creed of Wahhabi Islam. Why? Because they were not wearing the clothing required by religious law.

(voice-over): Consider, one of most powerful voices for jihad against the west is this man, Sayyid Qutb, a writer executed in Egypt in 1966. His radicalism was born in a visit to the United States he made more than 50 years ago where he was horrified by such indecent sights as a sock hop ball and couples embracing.

Now, look again at these pictures of an American woman leering and laughing as she points to the private parts of naked Iraqi men, as she chortles while these men are forced into degrading postures and acts. Every single flash point of potential rage is here, loss of privacy, loss of dignity, the forced intrusion into the most intimate private space by those cloaked with the power of the United States.

(on camera): It is, of course, impossible to know whether these pictures will produce specific acts of violence against the United States or its citizens. But it is also impossible not to recognize that these images have increased the likelihood and the intensity of just such acts.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll see how morning papers plays it all out after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydokey, let's see how much we can get done in two minutes of morning papers today, a little tight.

"International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times," leads with Iraq, I would say. It is a bunch of leads on the paper. Straight-ahead lead, though: "Anger Grows Over Iraqi Prisoners." OK.

"The Washington Times" has a good take on this. Up in the corner here, "Photos of Abuse Rock Cumberland. Hometown Loyal to Disgraced Unit." The National Guard unit at the center of this comes from the area, so that's how they led it. "President Orders Tough Punishment," the reprimands for abuse issue. There we go. I don't know. That whole reprimand thing, that doesn't sound that bad to me, but maybe it is if you're in the military.

"Banking Unused Time" is the lead in "The Chattanooga Times Free Press." "Government Workers Paid Millions For Vacation and Sick Leave," unused, presumably. That's what that means. Three good stories on "The Nat" -- not "The National Enquirer," Aaron, my goodness. "The Cincinnati Enquirer." My apologies to them. Church Finds No Gay Wedding Ban. Presbyterian Court Ruling Supports Minister." That's a good story. "Seven Soldiers Reprimanded Over Abuses." That's a good story.

But I just find this a really interesting cultural story. "Wal- Marts Face Rising Resistance." In one community after another, Wal- Mart, where half the universe shops, doesn't seem to be that wanted.

I'll do two more here. "The Philadelphia Inquirer." The Iraq story on top, but this is the one I like. "All Hail the Conquering Hero." Stewart Elliott, fresh from Kentucky Derby, gets right back in the saddle because he races at Philadelphia Park, the racetrack in Philadelphia.

"The Boston Herald" leads good, bad and ugly, the escapee Mr. Hamill, the bad more soldiers killed, the ugly, we don't need to tell you. You know.

The weather in Chicago tomorrow, "We'll take it," according to "The Sun Times." And we'll take it.

We'll wrap it up for the day in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Quick programming notes.

Tomorrow morning on "AMERICAN MORNING," Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, who is at the center of the Iraqi prison story, with Soledad and Bill.

And on NEWSNIGHT tomorrow night, with the war going through such a rough patch, Beth Nissen returned to a route that she and, more importantly, so many service men and women have traveled over the last year and more, the long road home for Americans wounded and injured in the war zone. And this has been in Landstuhl, and making her way back to tell the stories of the troops who are hurt and the people who are there to help them. These not always the easiest pieces to watch, but they are vital to see. And nobody does better work than Nissen. That's tomorrow, along with all the other day's top news and the rest here at NEWSNIGHT.

Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 3, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
I didn't write this page tonight. It was written instead by a viewer. It is a viewer who writes me often, sometimes agreeing with what we do, often not. I've done a little bit of editing here for time but this is what he wrote.

As one who supported Bush's war on terrorism and the Iraq invasion, I am very disturbed by what I see happening now. Iraqi citizens are still being tortured in Saddam's jails now by Americans. An Iraqi general, with Saddam's moustache no less, is in charge of Fallujah.

Aaron, I ran cell blocks in federal prisons for over 20 years and never saw anything like this and there is no excuse for it, a complete breakdown in command and control. Is this, he writes, what we went to war for and is this what we get at the cost of hundreds of American soldiers dead?

The Marines are pulled back from victory in Fallujah. This is perceived as a victory in the Arab world. Didn't Bush learn anything from Beirut and Somalia? Now we look both cruel and weak, the worst possible combination if we hope to effect change in the Arab world.

And he closed this way. I vote Republican, am hawkish on foreign policy, so if someone like me is asking these questions, the administration is heading for an election problem.

I don't support what I'm seeing in Iraq. I'm sure others are asking these questions. I trust you're doing well. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on page two. Take care, John.

If the administration has lost John, it has lost a lot over the last few weeks and nothing in today's news is likely to win him back.

The prison begins the whip and CNN's Jamie McIntyre starts us off, Jamie a headline please.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, as it stands now, six soldiers have been reprimanded, six more facing criminal charges for sexually humiliating and otherwise abusing Iraqi prisoners but another investigation just underway is looking at who or what might have been the real problem.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

On to the war that hasn't ended and one of the other flashpoints in that war CNN's Jane Arraf with the fighting in Najaf, Jane a headline.

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Aaron, in this holy city a drama is playing out involving U.S. forces massed here as a warning to a radical Shia leader and his armed followers and a militia that's testing the limits of what the United States will do here.

BROWN: Jane, thank you.

Mississippi next and two war stories, one bitter, one sweet, CNN's Bob Franken on that tonight, Bob a headline.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, two men coming back from Mississippi to their homes -- coming back from Iraq to their homes here in Mississippi, a story about the short distance between celebration and devastation.

BROWN: Bob, thank you.

And finally to Michigan, a battleground state in this election year, one the president visited again today. Our Senior White House Correspondent John King there, John the headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the last Republican to carry this state running for president was this president's father George Bush, but Mr. Bush tonight in the Detroit suburbs where they coined the term Reagan Democrat sounding much more like Ronald Reagan, saying John Kerry is soft on defense and will raise your taxes -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program on this Monday night, the civilians in Iraq possibly doing uncivil work, just what is CACI and what part is it playing in the prison scandal?

Angry voices in the Arab world, not surprising perhaps they're even more upset than those here in the United States.

And when the rooster crows, you know what time it is, yep, morning papers, your morning papers for tomorrow, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with a prison in Baghdad and the repercussions of what went on there. They are playing out on a number of fronts tonight, not the least of which is here at home.

A half dozen investigations underway, disturbing questions being asked about who condoned what and who might have said no but did not, troubling questions too about the role of private contractors.

We have several reports tonight beginning at the Pentagon and CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): So far, six soldiers, including some officers, have been reprimanded effectively ending their military careers and six others including some military police seen in the photos are facing court martial on criminal charges.

But according to lawyers for the accused and a general who was in charge of the prison, the MPs were following orders of U.S. military intelligence officers or the civilians they hired.

BRIG. GEN. JANIS KARPINSKI, COMMANDER, 800TH MILITARY POLICE BRIG.: I don't know how they do this. I don't know how they allowed these activities to get so out of control but I do know with almost absolute confidence that they didn't wake up one day and decide to do this.

MCINTYRE: But the Nuremberg defense, "I was just following orders," is no excuse according to U.S. commanders who say the pictures are in themselves an offense.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: What they were doing in those photos was absolutely wrong, deplorable, and they should be investigated and prosecuted.

MCINTYRE: Sources say some witnesses testifying before military proceedings have detailed instances in which Iraqi prisoners were forced to engage in or simulate humiliating sexual acts, including oral sex and the fact that some of the people responsible could be contract workers, not subject to military or Iraqi justice raises troubling questions of accountability according to legal experts.

ROBERT GOLDMAN, LAW PROFESSOR, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: This is very problematic. This is very problematic because when you are in a situation, particularly in an occupation situation, these people become identified with the United States.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The Pentagon insists it began the investigation of prisoner abuse back in January, immediately after those photographs were turned in by a concerned U.S. soldier but the wider investigation taking a look at the military intelligence aspect didn't begin until ten days ago, about the same time the Pentagon learned that those photographs were going to be shown on television -- Aaron.

BROWN: Two questions. Any explanation why the military intelligence part of this didn't start until ten days ago?

MCINTYRE: No, except that what we can gather is that this came up in the defense offered by some of the accused who have already gone through preliminary hearings and are facing court martial. It's not clear why they haven't focused on that until now and, up until this point, no military intelligence people have been identified as suspects or accused of any wrongdoing. BROWN: Is there -- just a second question here. Is there any indication that this sort of activity, that this problem extends beyond Iraq and into Afghanistan where there are also many detainees being held at Bagram?

MCINTYRE: Well, of course, if you take the statements of the Pentagon at face value, they say there's no evidence of any widespread problem but, of course, they didn't seem to know about this problem before it happened.

And we are aware of the deaths of detainees and complaints of abuse in Afghanistan, as well as other places in Iraq and presumably those incidents, which are under investigation, will get a more serious look given the context of what's happened here.

BROWN: Let me ask you one more thing. How shaken, if that's the right word, is it over at the Pentagon by all of this?

MCINTYRE: Oh, I think it's pretty devastating. The mood of the people I've talked to here, I mean they just feel this couldn't have been a worse thing to happen at a worse time. One military officer I talked to today just shook his head and said, "If we have any friends left in the Middle East, it's a wonder to me."

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

In his piece running in "New Yorker" magazine that came out today, Sy Hirsch quotes a veteran military investigator talking about the kind of humiliation prisoners were subject to at Abu Ghraib Prison.

In the end, he says, it's counterproductive. They tell you what you want to hear, truth or no truth and, in the end, there's a price to be paid for the jailed and the jailers alike.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): Army Reserve General Janis Karpinski was in command of the 26 American prisons in Iraq, including the infamous Abu Ghraib.

KARPINSKI: I certainly take the responsibility for some of this, yes, because those soldiers were assigned to a company under my command. Blame, I don't think that the blame rests with me or with the 800th MP Brigade.

BROWN: That is the jailers' version and now for this jailed.

Abbas (ph) was so embarrassed by his treatment in Abu Ghraib he didn't even want his face on camera. He told CNN's Ben Wedeman that Americans would put plastic cuffs on prisoners and leave them outside in the rain for hours in an effort to humiliate them.

Hadar Sabar Ali (ph) says he was one of the naked men in the photographs. He even points himself out. He says they were accused of beating another prisoner, someone suspected of spying for the Americans. He claims to have been hit, hit hard but perhaps the greatest pain was not physical.

He describes how their clothes were cut off and he says, "We are Muslims. We don't even go naked in front of our families but there we were naked in front of American women and men."

The mother of another prisoner covers her face as she sees the photographs on television. She says, "I felt as if that could be Jesus being crucified and I thought that could be my son."

General Karpinski is still proud, still fighting for her unit's honor, an honor that is quickly, perhaps inevitably fading.

KARPINSKI: And I say that because I had 3,400 soldiers, NCOs, officers working for me who were determined and proud to prove that the Army Reserve and the National Guard could do this against sometimes seemingly insurmountable odds and I was the champion for their cause.

I was their commander and they told me that and they were proud of me. And to take it away over something that is ill placed and misdirected then I think that that's a travesty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The general has more to say on all of this and you can see the entire interview with her tomorrow morning on "AMERICAN MORNING" starting at 7:00 Eastern time here on CNN.

Meantime the war goes on. An American soldier died today in a shootout south of Baghdad, a Marine was killed near Fallujah, bringing the number of fatalities due to enemy action to 554 of the more than 700 Americans who have died since the war began.

And, in Najaf, troops endured a withering mortar attack only to stop short of answering in kind. There are reasons for this.

In Baghdad, here's CNN's Jane Arraf.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF (voice-over): The most intense attack by Muqtada al-Sadr's militia since U.S. forces moved into this base in Najaf three weeks ago. One mortar round hit this abandoned hospital. The only occupants were the dead left in the morgue here after the Mehdi Army overran it last month.

LT. COL. PAT WHITE, 2ND BATTALION, 37TH REGIMENT: We've had about 30 mortar rounds during the attack in various locations in the city coming in at us and then, of course, everybody grabbed their AK and jumped up on the roof to fire at us as well.

ARRAF: The problem for U.S. Army soldiers in the middle of a crowded Shia city was firing back.

COL. BRAD MAY, 2ND ARMORED CAVALRY REGIMENT: The particular position we're in right now is the central part of the city and what you have is the holy sites essentially on either flank of us and we've been very careful to avoid contact inside the holy sites out of respect for religion.

ARRAF: The Army didn't use its artillery or attack helicopters. These two Apaches took fire from rocket-propelled grenades. The Army says they returned safely to base. U.S. military officials say firing has come from essentially all directions around this U.S. base.

(on camera): They say they even pinpointed mortar rounds coming from the courtyard of a mosque in Kufa. They say they did not fire back.

(voice-over): For hours, Salvadoran snipers working with the United States fired from the perimeter. The Army used only small arms and tank-mounted weapons. Workers reinforced the building housing a handful of civilian coalition officials who have stayed here under daily attack since Sadr seized Najaf and Kufa in April.

PHIL KOSNETT, COALITION PROVISION AUTHORITY: Our union is fond of saying that more American ambassadors have died in action than American generals since the end of World War II. There's more to being a modern American diplomat than conference tables and cocktail parties.

ARRAF: With the constant attack it seems unlikely coalition officials will be sitting around a conference table discussing withdrawal of militia forces anytime soon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ARRAF: And not to mention the challenge of fighting against an enemy that is playing by much looser rules, very tough situation for the U.S. here -- Aaron.

BROWN: How frustrated are soldiers by all of this? They're sitting there unable in effect to really defend themselves.

ARRAF: It is a really interesting situation because we have to remember these aren't just soldiers who have gone here to fight this battle. They've been here for a year and a lot of them have come from Baghdad and part of the reason they were sent here and part of the reason that they were told they wouldn't be going home, they had to stay over, is they've got a lot of experience doing it.

So, they're here. They see a clear enemy. There's a certain frustration that we see when we go out with these guys about the fact that they can't really fire back as much as they'd like. They can't be as aggressive as they'd like.

They do seem to understand the overall picture, which is kind of amazing given how young so many of them are but they understand but it still does seem very frustrating for them -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jane, thank you, Jane Arraf in Najaf tonight.

On to Fallujah, where just a couple of weeks ago Marines were poised to invade, now they are poised to withdraw leaving Iraqi troops under Iraqi command, which in and of itself has become somewhat of a problem.

"Time" magazine's Paul Quinn-Judge has been reporting on that and he joins us tonight from Baghdad. It's good to see you. I want to get to Fallujah in a second. How much, as you wander around Baghdad as you talk to people, how much is the prison story playing there these days?

PAUL QUINN-JUDGE, "TIME" MAGAZINE REPORTER: I think it's only begun to play in fact. There's always been, there's been a growing impression here, a growing stereotype that the coalition forces are occupiers not liberators. That was already forming a few weeks ago. I think it's going to get more and more entrenched as we go along.

Therefore, I think we're going to see a lot more anger and I think the -- I think the pictures are just going to provide the new, the new benchmark for this stereotype, this very negative stereotype that everybody who is here from the west is going to be facing, military and civilian.

BROWN: Let's move up and over to Fallujah for a bit because you were there for a bit. Did you have a sense the Marines were frustrated at the idea that they weren't going to finish what they started?

QUINN-JUDGE: They were pretty frustrated last week when the word came that they were going to pull back and that an Iraqi unit was going to take over the operations around and in the city.

They had been preparing, in fact, for a major assault late last week. They were preparing for that. They thought they would probably be going in maybe early this week, maybe about now. I don't know.

Essentially, their frustration was based on the feeling that sooner or later, maybe a month from now, maybe two, they would be back in the same positions preparing for the same attack on Fallujah having given their adversaries more time to prepare for them. It was already going to be a very nasty battle. They think the second time around it could be even worse.

BROWN: Were they and perhaps you surprised at the sophistication of their adversaries?

QUINN-JUDGE: I was and I think they were as well. They kept on saying this is not a bunch of local farmers trying to get something together fast. They felt the people firing on them and the base I was in was fired at a lot of the time, there was incoming every day, the people firing at them were sophisticated in military tactics.

They had crisscrossing lines of machine gun fire. They had an informal but very good system of coordination and command and their intelligence was very good. The Marines felt that they were under surveillance at all times and that the other side knew as soon as they were moving.

BROWN: Were they foreigners or were they Iraqi soldiers, Republican Guard, security people, whatever?

QUINN-JUDGE: Can't tell. Where we were they were firing at us and you didn't have time to chat to them or even see their faces. Local people around the base who had had contact with the other side had described them as local people.

Most Iraqis we talk to feel that the bulk of the fighting, if not all the fighting in Fallujah, is being done by small interlocking groups of local people, often organized around their mosques or their districts.

BROWN: And this issue about who is going to run the Iraqi security people that are now responsible for this, is it a settled question tonight?

QUINN-JUDGE: Settled question for whom?

BROWN: I'm -- well, has the CPA or the military decided who the general will be that will command the Iraqi troops?

QUINN-JUDGE: They're still trying to work that one out. They tried General Saleh, who was given some substantial praise over the weekend by General Conway, the commander of the Marines. They've dumped him. They're looking at a colonel or a general he's now being called, Mohammed Latif (ph).

The bottom line is as of yesterday we had colleagues going into Fallujah who said there was no sign of any new unit. There was no sign of the ICDC. The only people on the streets, once you got past the U.S. and one Iraqi checkpoint, were the mujahadin. They were in control of the city. They were very bad tempered and they were expecting another fight.

BROWN: Paul, it's good to have you with us. Thank you. Be safe. Thank you.

QUINN-JUDGE: Thank you.

BROWN: This is a story that seems to prove that in a time of war, and we're in one, joy is short lived. Thomas Hamill, the Mississippi dairy farmer who was taken hostage in Iraq escaped his captors over the weekend his three week ordeal over. In his hometown there was plenty of rejoicing. But, as we said, in time of war, joy is short lived and in a town not far from Mr. Hamill's the joy quickly turned to grief.

Here's CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Two front page stories from Iraq in the local paper. One describes Tommy Hamill's escape from captivity and the exhilarating relief back home in Macon, Mississippi.

HAMILL: I will let you know I've spoke with my husband. He is fine. He's doing well. FRANKEN: Less than 40 miles away in Columbus, Mississippi, the other story of another family and the knock on the door with crushing news.

JIM DAYTON, FATHER OF JEFF DAYTON: When those three sergeants came in and told me about Jeff, I mean my heart just felt like it was going to explode.

FRANKEN: Sergeant Jeff Dayton was another of the hundreds killed in Iraq his life now searingly painful memories of letters, pictures.

JIM DAYTON: I'll never get to talk to him again. I'll never get to hug him and it's just a helpless feeling.

JEREMY DAYTON, BROTHER OF JEFF DAYTON: I'm still in disbelief that it even happened. When I first found out I just, I don't know, I couldn't imagine going on.

FRANKEN: Jeff was a hero to his younger brother Jeremy. The family is trying to cope with his loss by telling the world how proud they were of him, they are of him, yet embracing the spirit of the celebration down the road.

JEREMY DAYTON: It feels good knowing that some people can get some relief.

FRANKEN: But now the first questions are registering.

JIM DAYTON: Once you lose a son, I don't know it's funny, you have to think gee this is -- you feel helpless and it's almost senseless.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Two men coming home to Mississippi from Iraq, one to celebration, one to sadness, overwhelming sadness -- Aaron.

BROWN: What do we know about how Jeff Dayton died?

FRANKEN: He died in a car bombing along with seven others, so seven others who will also not be rejoining their families.

BROWN: Bob, thank you, Bob Franken in Mississippi tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT on this Monday, the civilian contractors in Iraq caught up in the scandal over the photos of U.S. soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners. What was their involvement?

And the repercussions in a world already inclined to think the worst about the United States in some cases. We take a break first.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We said earlier the Iraqi prison case has many strands and this is another. Some of the responsibility may fall on non- government workers, civilian contractors working at the prison who allegedly were involved in the interrogations and may have told the MPs to soften up or loosen up the detainees in an effort to make the questioning easier and more fruitful. These workers are not subject to military justice and may not be held legally accountable by anyone.

Here's CNN's Kathleen Koch.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN KOCH, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An uncle of one soldier accused in the alleged abuse says his nephew told him he tried to complain and that he was told by superior officers to follow instructions from civilians, contract workers interrogating the Iraqi prisoners.

WILLIAM LAWSON, UNCLE, SSG IVAN "CHIP" FREDERICK: They said go back down there. Do what the civilian contractors tell you to do and don't interfere with them and loosen these soldiers up for interrogation.

KOCH: Now, defense contractors CACI International has hired outside counsel to investigate its employees' actions in connection with the abuse allegations. The Arlington, Virginia based company won't say how many of its employees worked at Abu Ghraib Prison.

CACI advertises for interrogators on its Web site. It says it is cooperating with the military investigations but has "received no information of any pending actions against any CACI employee's performance relating to prisoner abuse matters." Legal experts say private contractors are subject to international law but a former CIA officer insists contractors fall into a legal gray area.

ROBERT BAER, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, there is no accountability obviously. If it was private contractors, they don't fall under American law and they don't fall under Iraqi law.

KOCH: Industry representatives say contractors are hired because they are better and cheaper but still need supervision.

DOUG BROOKS, INTERNATIONAL PEACE OPERATIONS: Presumably the interrogators they were using were former military people themselves so they have ten or 15 years' experience in the military and then when they get out and retire, the military needs them for, you know, some of their expanded operations so they'll bring these people in but I think it's important to remember that whenever you hire a contractor they should be under the military's command.

KOCH (on camera): Senior Pentagon officials say at least two military investigations are looking into whether or not private contractors had a role in the alleged abuses.

Kathleen Koch, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: Just heard briefly from William Lawson whose nephew Staff Sergeant Ivan "Chip" Frederick has been charged in the scandal and faces possible court martial. Mr. Lawson joins us now from (unintelligible) Maryland. It's good to see you, sir.

LAWSON: Good evening, Aaron.

BROWN: Chip is a corrections officer so he has some experience in these matters. Why did he go along with it?

LAWSON: Why did he go along with the photographs, Aaron?

BROWN: Yes, and what we see in the photographs.

LAWSON: Well, the interrogators wanted results and he did not want to physically abuse the prisoner so somehow these seven soldiers came up with the idea, and I don't know who came up with the idea, of taking photographs and using those photographs to show new prisoners that this can happen to you. Now some of those photographs are real and some of them are staged.

BROWN: When you say staged what are you saying here?

LAWSON: Well, the ones with the thumbs-up and stuff are just staged to show to the new Iraqi prisoners. The picture of the gentleman in ice, the Iraqi prisoner, he was never checked into the prison system. He was never given a number under the Geneva Convention.

He was taken and given right to the interrogators who took him in and interrogated him until he had a heart attack and died. They packed him in ice, kept him until the next day, brought in a military ambulance, pulled him out of the ice, put a fake IV in his arm and brought him out of the prison as a wounded Iraqi prisoner. So, for all intents and purposes this person doesn't exist. He was killed.

BROWN: Another part of this investigation. Let's go back to the things that Chip told you. He wrote to you about some of the things that they had been -- that they had done or had been asked to do in an effort to loosen up, I think is the term he used, the Iraqis. Can you describe those things?

LAWSON: Well, there was probably things like sleep deprivation. He didn't like the idea of having them stand on boxes because he told the civilian interrogators what will they do to sleep? And the interrogators said let them stand there. Now one guy stood on a box for three days before he fell down.

BROWN: Did Chip know it was wrong?

LAWSON: Yes, he did and he also agrees that he bears a small portion of responsibility for what has happened here. He had no training in Arab customs. He had no type of training whatsoever by anybody in the chain of command on handling prisoners of war or anything else. He requested regulations. He requested a copy of the Geneva Convention. He got no help and he was told you go back down there and you get results and you do what those civilian contractors tell you and they want results and you do whatever it takes to get them.

He's not the type of person to be violent with prisoners, so this was the least physical way that he could interrogate these prisoners and loosen them up for the interrogators.

BROWN: Mr. Lawson, we wish you nothing but the best. I know it's a difficult time for you. Thank you very much, sir.

LAWSON: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Thank you.

Coming up on the program still outrage and anger anti-American sentiment as you could imagine, the Arab world now reacting to photos shown around the world.

And, around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A U.S.-sponsored television station in Iraq has barely mentioned the prisoner abuse scandal, which hardly means that the people there don't know about it. Whether it is Iraq itself or elsewhere in the Arab world, the story plays to the worst thinking about Americans and the American occupation of Iraq. There is in the end no way to spin this. The administration and the military must simply ride it out as best it can.

Here is CNN's Rula Amin.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RULA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The pictures were on almost every newscast in every Arab country. Grodielo (ph) works for a Beirut bank.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's horrible. It's horrible.

AMIN: Ayman (ph) sells eyeglasses in Amman (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw that, that was despicable, disgusting, unbelievable, inhuman, that shows how bad the Americans are.

AMIN: As an Arab, I was very provoked, says this business man, every Arab was. It's sheer humiliation. U.S. condemnation of any mistreatment helps little.

(on camera): And not just because of the abuse, but also because the pictures of Arab men, naked, kneeling and bending on all fours, touched on a sensitive chord in the conservative religious Arab culture here. Many say it was a matter of dignity. (voice-over): ArabNet said they found some former prisoners shown in the pictures. The men said they had not told their families of the abuse, too embarrassing said one.

HAMZA MANSOUR, ISLAMIC OPPOSITION LEADER (through translator): The American administration came to protect the Iraqi citizens and restore their rights as they claim, but the hell of the previous regime seem to be better than the paradise of American administration.

AMIN: One analyst in Beirut says the pictures badly damaged U.S. efforts to sell democracy in the region.

ALI HAMIDI, BEIRUT ANALYST: These scenes perhaps of torture are not new in our region, but coming from the American, it was new.

ABDUL SALAM MALHAS, BEIRUT ANALYST: I believe that when America had the chance to show its new face, they showed it with what we have seen on the TV screens.

AMIN: Newspaper headlines read: The prisoners candle reveals the crimes of the occupation, headlines and images that give new ammunition of those opposed to the United States and its occupation in Iraq.

Rula Amin, CNN, Beirut.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Other news tonight, an unsung survivor in the war on terrorism faced his attacker in a courtroom in New York City today. For prison guard Louis Pepe, it was justice done, even though it in no way undoes the brutality he suffered.

For his attacker, a high-ranking member of al Qaeda, it was simpler, 32 years in prison.

Here is CNN's Deborah Feyerick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He lost 70 percent of his speech. But when jail guard Louis Pepe describes attack that almost left his dead, his words are clear.

LOUIS PEPE, VICTIM: You know how many times they hit me? I hate to say at least bam, bam, bam, bam.

FEYERICK: It happened November 2000 on the maximum security floor of Manhattan's Metropolitan Correctional Center. Pepe was escorting al Qaeda terror suspect Mamdouh Mahmud Salim.

PEPE: You always gotta look, because you never know what they're going to do.

FEYERICK: Salim and his cell mate attacked Pepe, fighting to get the officer's keys as he struggled not to let go. PEPE: Never, never, never, never. Even if they kill me, I'm not going to do it.

FEYERICK: Salim ultimately stabbed the officer in the eye with a comb he had sharpened into a knife. Prosecutors say Salim worked closely with Osama bin Laden, creating al Qaeda and running its training camps. Salim was in jail preparing to stand trial with four terrorists later convicted for the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombings in East Africa.

Before the trial, Salim assaulted Pepe, he says to attack his lawyers waiting in another room and get them replaced. The guard lost his left eye and suffered brain damage.

EILEEN TROTTA, SISTER OF PEPE: He's the prisoner now, not Salim.

FEYERICK: Salim pleaded guilty to attempted murder and at his sentencing Pepe begged the judge to give him life in prison shouting at his attacker: "You're no good. I am dead. Do you understand that? I am dead."

After several outbursts, Pepe was led out of court by federal marshals. Three dozen jail guards who had come to show support walked out in protest.

Given a chance to speak, Salim said through an Arabic interpreter, "To cause someone to lose an eye is not something you can just apologize for." Calling the attack and appalling, Judge Deborah Batts sentenced Salim to 32 years in prison. He still faces terror conspiracy charges. No trial date has been set.

Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, back on the campaign trail. Mr. Bush, the president makes room for Mr. Bush the candidate.

A break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: President Bush began a bus tour through two key swing states, Michigan and Ohio. Michigan, which is reeling from thousands of lost manufacturing jobs, was the first stop.

Here is our senior White House correspondent, John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Rolling through western Michigan, a president who knows tough times make his case for reelection a tougher sells.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Michigan lags behind. And I fully understand that. KING: Up close with voters in tiny Niles near the Indiana border, and getting help promoting his tax cuts as just the tonic the economy needed.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were able to go ahead and make -- get a new washer and dryer.

BUSH: New washer and dryer. Somebody had to make the washer and dryer.

KING: Michigan was a major disappointment for Mr. Bush four years ago and is a major challenge now. Al Gore carried the state by five points. And during the Bush presidency, Michigan has lost 136,000 manufacturing jobs and its unemployment has rate shot up to 6.9 percent.

ED SARPOLUS, POLLSTER: Here in Michigan, we lost probably the brunt of the manufacturing jobs and we're having the slowest turnaround bringing this economy back. And also, on a regular weekly basis, we're talking about companies closing down or shipping out jobs.

KING: Launching his first full-scale campaign trip here was meant to send a message that Michigan is a major target. On the bus, interviews with local media, and, after rolling into Kalamazoo, an appeal for help and a sober assessment of the six months to come.

BUSH: I'm running against an experienced candidate. I'm not going take him lightly. He is a worthy opponent.

KING: The auto industry is bread and butter in this state, so the president tailored his theme that Democrat John Kerry changes with the wind that helps him win votes.

Here in Michigan recently, the president says, Senator Kerry bragged about owning an SUV, then, on Earth Day:

BUSH: He said, I don't own an SUV. To clear up the confusion, he said this. "The family has it. I don't have it."

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: In other words, doesn't have an SUV except when he's in Michigan.

KING: Western Michigan is critical to Republicans in statewide elections.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: Also critical, the suburbs just north of Detroit. It was here 20 years ago they coined the term Reagan Democrat. Tonight, Aaron, one of the biggest and enthusiastic crowds for the president in this campaign, Mr. Bush delivering some of his most spirited, pointed attacks on Senator Kerry, characterizing him as soft on defense and, again, borrowing from the Ronald Reagan playbook, saying a Kerry presidency would be a guarantee of higher taxes -- Aaron.

BROWN: What about the war? Does the war come up in any of these questions and answers with citizens?

KING: The war comes up in just about every speech. And Mr. Bush today though in public did not refer to this prison scandal unfolding, this morning we did learn he called Secretary Rumsfeld this morning and the president sent his press secretary out to tell reporters he's demanding an investigation, that those responsible be held accountable.

In the speeches today, the president was most adamant in stressing sovereignty will be turned over on June 30 and in stressing what he believes the overall character and integrity of the U.S. forces in Iraq -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you, our senior White House correspondent, John King.

A couple quick business items before we head to break, starting with the guilty verdict against investment banker Frank Quattrone. Jurors concluded that he obstructed justice by forwarding co-workers at Credit Suisse First Boston an e-mail encouraging them to clean up their files, if you know what I mean, at the time he was aware a federal investigation into -- was getting under way into his team.

Medicare discount cards became available today, but not without a heavy dose of confusing. They have the potential for saving seniors as much as 30 percent on prescription drugs, but there are lots of plans to choose from. And what is more, many seniors don't even know the program exists.

The markets did OK in advance of the Federal Reserve meeting, where inflation and interest rates are expected to be on the agenda. Markets up. We'll see how they do tomorrow after the Fed.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, quite possibly the worst possible pictures at the worst possible time. Get some perspective from Jeff Greenfield after the break.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We began tonight talking about a note from a viewer. And another note from a different viewer fits here as well. "When looking at the prison pictures," he asked, "so what? Nothing they did compares to the mutilation of the four American contractors in Fallujah." Well, that is true, literally. Culturally, however, it is a different matter.

Here is our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): It sounds like an important question. Were these the aberrant actions of a few? Yes, says the chairman of the Joint Chiefs.

GEN. RICHARD MYERS, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: It is really a shame that just a handful can besmirch the reputation of hundreds of thousands of our soldiers.

GREENFIELD: Some press reports in "The New Yorker Magazine" and elsewhere recount a more systemic problem, a breakdown in the command structure. But, in the end, it may not matter much where it will count the most, in what these pictures say to so many in the Muslim world. We can say it quite clearly.

If Osama bin Laden had Adobe Photoshop software and wished to construct the most damaging possible images, the images most designed to inflame rage, he could not have done better, given the way some in the Muslim world deal with women, sexuality and pride.

Consider, this is Mohamed Atta, ringleader of the 9/11 attacks. In the last will left behind at Boston's Logan Airport, he said -- quote -- "I don't want any woman to go my grave. I don't want a pregnant woman to come and say goodbye to me." And he asked that -- quote -- "The person who will wash my body wear gloves so he won't touch my genitals.'

(on camera): Consider, in March 2002, 15 girls burned to death in a middle school in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. News reports said that some of the girls were prevented from escaping by the religious police, those who enforce the rigid creed of Wahhabi Islam. Why? Because they were not wearing the clothing required by religious law.

(voice-over): Consider, one of most powerful voices for jihad against the west is this man, Sayyid Qutb, a writer executed in Egypt in 1966. His radicalism was born in a visit to the United States he made more than 50 years ago where he was horrified by such indecent sights as a sock hop ball and couples embracing.

Now, look again at these pictures of an American woman leering and laughing as she points to the private parts of naked Iraqi men, as she chortles while these men are forced into degrading postures and acts. Every single flash point of potential rage is here, loss of privacy, loss of dignity, the forced intrusion into the most intimate private space by those cloaked with the power of the United States.

(on camera): It is, of course, impossible to know whether these pictures will produce specific acts of violence against the United States or its citizens. But it is also impossible not to recognize that these images have increased the likelihood and the intensity of just such acts.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: We'll see how morning papers plays it all out after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydokey, let's see how much we can get done in two minutes of morning papers today, a little tight.

"International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times," leads with Iraq, I would say. It is a bunch of leads on the paper. Straight-ahead lead, though: "Anger Grows Over Iraqi Prisoners." OK.

"The Washington Times" has a good take on this. Up in the corner here, "Photos of Abuse Rock Cumberland. Hometown Loyal to Disgraced Unit." The National Guard unit at the center of this comes from the area, so that's how they led it. "President Orders Tough Punishment," the reprimands for abuse issue. There we go. I don't know. That whole reprimand thing, that doesn't sound that bad to me, but maybe it is if you're in the military.

"Banking Unused Time" is the lead in "The Chattanooga Times Free Press." "Government Workers Paid Millions For Vacation and Sick Leave," unused, presumably. That's what that means. Three good stories on "The Nat" -- not "The National Enquirer," Aaron, my goodness. "The Cincinnati Enquirer." My apologies to them. Church Finds No Gay Wedding Ban. Presbyterian Court Ruling Supports Minister." That's a good story. "Seven Soldiers Reprimanded Over Abuses." That's a good story.

But I just find this a really interesting cultural story. "Wal- Marts Face Rising Resistance." In one community after another, Wal- Mart, where half the universe shops, doesn't seem to be that wanted.

I'll do two more here. "The Philadelphia Inquirer." The Iraq story on top, but this is the one I like. "All Hail the Conquering Hero." Stewart Elliott, fresh from Kentucky Derby, gets right back in the saddle because he races at Philadelphia Park, the racetrack in Philadelphia.

"The Boston Herald" leads good, bad and ugly, the escapee Mr. Hamill, the bad more soldiers killed, the ugly, we don't need to tell you. You know.

The weather in Chicago tomorrow, "We'll take it," according to "The Sun Times." And we'll take it.

We'll wrap it up for the day in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Quick programming notes.

Tomorrow morning on "AMERICAN MORNING," Brigadier General Janis Karpinski, who is at the center of the Iraqi prison story, with Soledad and Bill.

And on NEWSNIGHT tomorrow night, with the war going through such a rough patch, Beth Nissen returned to a route that she and, more importantly, so many service men and women have traveled over the last year and more, the long road home for Americans wounded and injured in the war zone. And this has been in Landstuhl, and making her way back to tell the stories of the troops who are hurt and the people who are there to help them. These not always the easiest pieces to watch, but they are vital to see. And nobody does better work than Nissen. That's tomorrow, along with all the other day's top news and the rest here at NEWSNIGHT.

Until then, good night for all of us.

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