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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Rumsfeld Visits Abu Ghraib; Wolfowitz Grilled On Capitol Hill; Nick Berg's Father Continues Blast Of Bush Administration

Aired May 13, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
If the purpose of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's quick trip to Iraq today was in part to boost the morale of the troops, we hope he succeeded. It's been a miserable series of weeks for them, the fighting, the more than 130 deaths, the hundreds more wounded and now the prison scandal.

These weeks have been a test for the administration and more and more even the friends and supporters are raising questions. Particularly we notice in the halls of Congress and in the conservative press, talk about post war planning or lack thereof, about the need for more troops and more help, a clear view of how to get out. You hear this uneasiness more and more, the George Wills and the Andrew Sullivan's just to name a couple.

There is a rising concern the administration has made serious mistakes and now have serious consequences and the windows for correcting them are closing rapidly.

And so the whip begins in Baghdad with CNN's Ben Wedeman, Ben a headline from you tonight.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Secretary Rumsfeld went to prison today, Abu Ghraib Prison that is, and in the place where the whole prisoner abuse scandal began he seemed to find a moment of relief from all his troubles.

BROWN: Ben, thank you.

The Pentagon next and what Mr. Rumsfeld is returning to or leaving. Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre with that side of things tonight, Jamie a headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said it wasn't an inspection tour. It was more of a thank you tour. But while he was in Iraq insisting that the U.S. adhere to the Geneva Conventions, his deputy was on Capitol Hill conceding that even if U.S. interrogation techniques weren't illegal they might be inhumane.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

On to the murder now of Nick Berg, his return home today. CNN's Maria Hinojosa again tonight in suburban Philadelphia and Maria the headline from there. MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, after three days of silence, Nick Berg's father broke his silence. There weren't tears but there was anger and pointed accusations.

BROWN: Maria, thank you.

And finally, presidential politics back on the menu, more specifically vice presidential politics. Kelly Wallace on top of our ticket with that, Kelly a headline.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, tonight John Kerry went to look at those Iraqi prisoner abuse photos on Capitol Hill, while behind the scenes his advisers continue the search for his number two. What would make an idea candidate? That is a question we try to answer tonight -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest coming up.

Also on the program tonight, another curiosity in the sad case of Nick Berg. This one goes back three years to a chance encounter with al Qaeda and that man, Zacarias Moussaoui.

Plus, Nissen returns to Germany, the first stop home for America's war wounded. It has been a busy and grim month at Landstuhl and Nissen reports tonight.

And later, of course, the rooster stops by with hopefully your morning papers, if not we got trouble, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with Secretary Rumsfeld and his surprise trip to Baghdad. He didn't stay long, just seven hours. He didn't see much after landing in the middle of a sandstorm. He visited Abu Ghraib Prison but not the prisoners themselves.

He went, he said, to boost morale and did for the troops and perhaps for himself as well. The secretary hasn't had a very good couple of weeks to say the least and today he looked more than happy to trade the war zone in Washington for the real one in Baghdad.

We have two reports on this tonight, first from Baghdad CNN's Ben Wedeman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Eight time zones from Washington, inside Abu Ghraib Prison, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld seemed liberated from a scandal that began here.

On a surprise visit to Iraq, the outwardly buoyant American defense secretary touched on the scandal when meeting with soldiers in the mess hall at Abu Ghraib.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: And it's been a body blow for all of us. WEDEMAN: But he was far more focused on bolstering morale and calming the storm.

RUMSFELD: The right thing for us to do is to come out here and look you folks in the eye and tell you that we think you're terrific. We admire your service.

WEDEMAN: The warm reception here a far cry from Washington's angry denunciations and calls for resignation.

Outside the prison walls, a far chillier reception from Iraqis waiting for news of imprisoned relatives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through interpreter): He will do nothing good. It's just propaganda. He will do nothing.

WEDEMAN: Three military policemen from Abu Ghraib are facing courts martial. More trials are expected.

Later in the palace built by Saddam Hussein, Rumsfeld held what was billed as a town meeting, then was mobbed by enthusiastic soldiers.

(on camera): Even if there were no prisoner abuse scandal, Secretary Rumsfeld has plenty to ponder here. Since his last visit in February, around 230 U.S. troops have died in Iraq in some of the most intense combat since the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime.

(voice-over): But under withering fire at home, Mr. Rumsfeld found temporary relief in a country at war.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: If by changing date lines Secretary Rumsfeld intended to soften the headlines, the jury remains out. Calls for him to resign keep coming so do questions for Paul Wolfowitz his right-hand man. Senators gave Wolfowitz a grilling today.

Also today the war's estimated price tag rose by another $60 billion for next year, all of which Jamie McIntyre told us last night is shaking the Pentagon, none of which, however, is rocking Mr. Rumsfeld, at least not so far as he's letting on.

Here again is Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Peering out the window of a heavily- armored vehicle, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers approached the Abu Ghraib Prison, now notorious for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.s. soldiers.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Thanks for your service. We appreciate it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

MCINTYRE: At the prison...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every detainee has a cot, so they'll have heating and cooling in there.

MCINTYRE: And afterward at a town hall meeting, Rumsfeld reassured his troops that America's Iraq policy is on track and despite calls for his head he is still firmly in charge.

RUMSFELD: It's a fact I'm a survivor.

MCINTYRE: On the plane ride over, Rumsfeld denied his surprise Iraq trip was to throw water on a fire and he said Pentagon lawyers are advising against the official release of abuse photos arguing that would violate Geneva Convention prohibitions against exposing prisoners to public curiosity.

RUMSFELD: I'd be happy to release them all to the public and to get it behind us but at the present time I don't know anyone in the legal shop in any element of the government that's recommending it.

MCINTYRE: But on Capitol Hill more questions about whether the Pentagon's approved interrogation techniques, which include sensory depravation and stress positions violate the Geneva Conventions on prisoner treatment.

SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: A bag over your head for 72 hours, is that humane?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: Let me come back to you what you said the work of the government...

REED: No, no, answer the question sir, is that humane? Anybody would say putting a bag over someone's head for 72 hours, which is sensory depravation.

WOLFOWITZ: I believe it's not humane. It strikes me as not humane.

MCINTYRE: Under the Geneva Conventions, "prisoners may not be exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The admission by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz that U.S. interrogation techniques may be inhumane, if not illegal, came as his boss, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld was in Iraq insisting that the U.S. adheres to the spirit of the Geneva Conventions -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, I know there is no way to simply answer this and for that I apologize for asking but there has to be somewhere between please tell us what you know, Mr. Detainee, and subjecting them to torture that fairness lies but, if you read that Geneva Convention line, it doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of wiggle room.

MCINTYRE: Well, you know, if you think about it, Aaron, it's very similar to what police in the United States can do in questioning suspects. There are a lot of things they can do.

For instance, police officers don't have to tell the truth to their people that they've arrested. They can try to trick them. They can use various techniques to put them under stress but they can't treat them inhumanely. They certainly can't strip them and put hoods on their heads.

So, it's along those lines and, you know, this is a case where the Golden Rule applies. You want to treat prisoners under your custody the way that you would want your prisoners treated if they were captured by somebody else and many members of Congress believe the U.S. simply hasn't met that standard.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you very much, nicely done there too, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

More now on the broader subject of who was being interrogated and how. Some without a doubt happen to be very bad guys and knowing what they know matters a lot. Getting at that information, or at least trying to, has been ugly and perhaps legally iffy as well and to some would say so what?

That's a debatable point we'll argue but it isn't one that -- what isn't here is the practices we're learning and, in some cases, tried and true methods, in some cases yet another example of how rules have changed in the new normal.

Here again, CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. officials confirm that after 9/11 new rules were approved by the president allowing additional forms of pressure by the CIA against al Qaeda prisoners. They refused to be more specific. Former officials say that pressure includes sleep deprivation, use of heat, cold, light and loud noise.

"The New York Times" reports that in the case of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammad interrogators have used a technique known as water boarding in which a prisoner is strapped down, forcibly pushed under water and made to believe he might drown. U.S. officials say they are now certain that Mohammad personally killed "Wall Street Journal" reporter Danny Pearl by beheading him with a knife.

(on camera): While refusing to comment on interrogation techniques, one official said if Pearl's killer suffered "a bit of discomfort that would not bother this official one bit."

(voice-over): The same would go for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi if they could catch him, officials say. CIA officials now say the hooded terrorist who spoke on the tape of American Nick Berg's murder and then actually killed him is with high probability Zarqawi himself. In the wake of the photos of abuse in Iraq, some in Congress are now calling for Geneva Convention protection for all prisoners, even terrorist leaders.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: We can't be hypocrites. We can't go out there and say one thing and do another and debase ourselves and debase our own people.

ENSOR: But shortly after 9/11, President Bush decided the U.S. would not give that protection to prisoners from non-state entities, like al Qaeda, that do not themselves honor the convention.

STEPHEN CAMBONE, UNDERSECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR INTELLIGENCE: To grant terrorists the rights they so cruelly reject would make a mockery of the Geneva Conventions.

ENSOR: U.S. intelligence officials draw a sharp distinction between what they see as the illegal abuses of Iraqi prisoners and the pressure the CIA puts on al Qaeda prisoners. Pressure, officials stress, has been specifically approved in writing by the White House and the Justice Department.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: On now to Nick Berg, whose body came home today to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware and whose arrival his family was not permitted to attend. In the midst of their grieving it isn't their only complaint about how the government has handled this whole sad affair. More on that in a moment.

First, though, a reminder of what they and their neighbors have lost. Here's CNN's Maria Hinojosa.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HINOJOSA (voice-over): After three days of silence and seclusion, Nick Berg's father emerged. There were no tears, instead anger.

BERG: Nicholas Berg died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. The al Qaeda people are probably just as bad as they are.

HINOJOSA: His son, he says, supported the war, supported President Bush. Father and son, he said, on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

BERG: I would like to ask George Bush a question. I would like to ask him if it's true that al Qaeda offered to trade my son's life for the life of another person and, if that is true, well I need that information.

I need that information and I think that the people of the United States of America need to know what the fate of their sons and daughters might be in the hands of the Bush administration. HINOJOSA: The U.S. has said, however, it knew of no offer from al Qaeda that would have saved Nick Berg's life.

The family received flowers and letters from around the world but the question persists. Why was this smart, young man in Iraq alone without a guide, a translator or security? His friends spoke on "Good Morning America."

LUKE LORENZ, FRIEND OF NICHOLAS BERG: It was part of his vision. It was part of -- something inside of him said that he wanted to be there, be a part of the process to rebuild.

HINOJOSA: Michael Berg says his son wanted to see the good in all people, maybe even his captors.

BERG: The al Qaeda that killed my son didn't know what they were doing. They killed their best friend. Nick was there to build Iraq, not to tear it down. He was there to help people not to hurt anyone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HINOJOSA: But for the Berg family there can only be hurt as they prepare for a difficult day tomorrow. There will be a private funeral just for the family and then in the afternoon a memorial and a chance for friends to say a final goodbye to Nick Berg -- Aaron.

BROWN: Maria, thank you, Maria Hinojosa outside of Philadelphia tonight.

There's nothing quite as difficult as the family's pain is there? Beyond the tragedy of Nick Berg's demise there are questions, questions about what happened before his abduction, during his encounter first with the Iraqi police and then with the FBI and to the questions and curiosities tonight, add this one, a coincidence, a big one.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ties between Nicholas Berg and Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in the U.S. in connection to 9/11, trace back to Oklahoma.

BERG: Nick went to Oklahoma University and he was taking a course that was in a remote campus and you're on a bus. That remote campus was near the airport where some terrorist people, who no one knew were terrorists at the time, they were just fellow students, were also taking that bus and someone asked him how to -- now to -- asked him basically to let him use his computer and he did.

ARENA: U.S. officials say that Berg shared his computer and his password with one individual and that password somehow ended up in Moussaoui's possession.

BERG: It turned out that this guy was a terrorist and that he, you know, used my son's e-mail amongst many other people's e-mail who he did the same thing to.

ARENA: The FBI tracked Berg down and his father said that his son cooperated fully. Michael Berg said the incident happened several years ago. Moussaoui took flight lessons in Oklahoma in 2001.

(on camera): It's a curious twist and some suggest a possible reason the FBI felt compelled to interview Berg three times in Iraq before clearing him for release.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Nick Berg was a very long way from home when he died, a very long way from home in a very dangerous spot but even in that dangerous spot where heaven knows a lot of Americans have a lot of enemies, Nick Berg was not without friends. He seems to have been like that the kind of guy who could connect no matter the circumstances.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SABAH TALEB MEHDI, GYM OWNER (through interpreter): He never appeared to care about the warnings or danger. He used to walk like he was in Washington or somewhere like that he knew.

BROWN (voice-over): He connected with Sabah Taleb Mehdi, the owner of a gym in which he regularly worked out. He connected too with Hugo Infante, a journalist from Chile.

HUGO INFANTE, CHILEAN JOURNALIST: I think all the guests here, the people who knew him here, it was really, they were really friendly with him because he never spoke a bad word about Iraq, you know. He always say good things about Iraq. He loved these people. He loved the town.

BROWN: And, of course, he connected with fellow American Robert Andrew Duke, another businessman on his own in Iraq.

ANDREW ROBERT DUKE, INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OPERATOR IN IRAQ: In the evening we sat in my room. We talked about, you know, what a 26- year-old guy was going to do with the rest of his life, how he was in good shape, how he was looking forward to having a relationship.

BROWN: To his Chilean friend, Nick Berg made a good adventure yarn of what happened to him. He told the story this way.

INFANTE: Oh, you want to hear a funny story about me? I was in prison, man. Why? Because the Iraqi police catch me one night in Mosul and they saw my passport. My passport, in my passport I have my Jewish last name.

BROWN: What happened after that Nick Berg would not live to tell but the world has come to know anyway as has his friend Sabah Mehdi.

MEHDI (through interpreter): I saw a picture of five men standing with heads covered in black and making a declaration and I saw a man sitting on the ground with his hands tied. I dropped the cup I was holding and started shouting this is Nick. This is Nick. I began to cry. I was very saddened.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Again, memorial services for Nick Berg tomorrow.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight we go back to Landstuhl, the military hospital there. We've been there before and sine then things have only gotten more difficult.

Plus, the separations caused by civil war, Christiane Amanpour tonight on the thousands fleeing the rape and the murder in Sudan.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well the saying goes once the bell is rung you can't un- ring it. Many developments in Iraq would seem to support the observation. The Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal has made an already difficult situation much worse, so the question tonight is there any way to mute what cannot be un-rung? To put it another way is there any way out of this mess?

General George Joulwan is the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, a graduate of West Point. He served two combat tours in Vietnam and also served in the Pentagon and the White House and we talked to him last night when we were in Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Maybe this should be the end question and I'll start with it. Is it too late for the country to internationalize in a grander scale or real scale some would say the effort in Iraq?

GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: No. I truly believe that needs to happen and it's not too late. There are two very important events that are going to take place.

One is what happens on June 30th, July 1st of this year when sovereignty goes to the Iraqi government. The other event is five or six months from now in January of '05 on the election.

We have gone from the war fight, the taking of Baghdad, et cetera, to stabilization and that stabilization is a mission and to do that requires not just United States forces but it requires the international community and primarily not just military forces. It requires political, diplomatic, as well as security forces.

BROWN: Why?

JOULWAN: Well, because for a government to be legitimized for sovereignty of the Iraqi government to take place there is no better organization for that than the United Nations for stabilization to take place, as you move toward elections in January of '05.

I was part of that in Bosnia. Part of my mission from the North Atlantic Council that was acting under a U.N. resolution that was really led by the United States was to have elections in Bosnia in 1996 and so the military supported the civilian agencies that were going to conduct those elections.

BROWN: How do we convince, how does the administration if it were so inclined, how do they convince these countries who feel they were treated somewhat disrespectfully in the build-up to the war to enter a country now that is anything but stable?

JOULWAN: Again it's going to take great leadership on our part but the issue here is that those nations also have a stake in what's happening, so what it's going to require, and to be candid and clear here, you have to give NATO a seat at the table.

You have to include them in the discussion. That may be too much for this administration to do but I think it needs to be done. We need to broaden the base and in this phase it has to happen now on the sovereignty that takes place on June 30th and the elections.

If we want that create the best conditions for success then I think you have to internationalize it with both the U.N. and NATO and that doesn't mean we give up everything. I think we need to provide the leadership to make sure that we stay on course and that these events are conducted successfully.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And, again, we talked to the general last night when we were in Washington.

Politics just ahead, John Kerry's choice of a running mate, the possibility, a delicious one for many that he'll reach across party lines to make it.

We'll take a break first. On CNN this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On to the campaign trail we go. In several battleground states this week, John Kerry has been focusing on healthcare issues. Today, in Arkansas, he questioned the president's commitment to veterans' healthcare.

Behind the scenes, of course, his campaign is focusing on another issue, a critical one picking a running mate. It is the quintessential parlor game in an election year. Who will the presidential challenger bring to the fight?

We begin with CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE (voice-over): So, who is getting John Kerry's attention? We set out to find the ideal vice presidential candidate, joining us presidential historian Allan Lichtman.

ALLAN LICHTMAN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Kerry's got gravitas but he doesn't have the swing. He doesn't have the music. Pick someone who is a great crooner out there on the campaign trail.

WALLACE: With that in mind, there's North Carolina Senator John Edwards and, of course, the junior Senator from New York. What does a Hillary Clinton give to John Kerry?

LICHTMAN: Instant celebrity. Everybody knows who Hillary Clinton is.

WALLACE: And that could be a problem. Senator Clinton might overshadow Senator Kerry. So, the presumptive Democratic nominee might tap someone who can help win a battleground state, like Missouri Congressman Dick Gephardt, Iowa's Governor Tom Vilsack, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico, or Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana.

LICHTMAN: Evan Bayh is about as close as you're going to get to Ohio since there are hardly any Democrats there.

WALLACE: And then there is the let's-maximize-strength theory, a decorated Vietnam veteran choosing another veteran at a time of uncertainty about the war in Iraq.

LICHTMAN: I can give you Wesley Clark's appeal in one word: He's a general.

WALLACE: And, of course, if Kerry wants to surprise those who think he is not one to take chances, there is the man who keeps saying no, Republican Senator John McCain.

LICHTMAN: He was willing.

WALLACE: The first rule of thumb, make sure the candidate does you no harm. Paul Brountas headed the 1988 search for Governor Michael Dukakis' running mate.

PAUL BROUNTAS, HEADED DUKAKIS CAMPAIGN VICE PRESIDENTIAL SEARCH: We learned from the mistakes of the past. Acting too quickly can cause terrible results.

WALLACE: Brountas refers to 1984, when vice presidential nominee Geraldine Ferraro was a surprise choice. Her husband's business dealings became an issue. Since then, the background checks have become more intense.

BROUNTAS: Everything has to be on the table. Otherwise, all you need is one -- what you don't want is a surprise in the middle of the campaign.

WALLACE: So while the Kerry team scours the records of contenders and we keep talking about who might be ideal, the only thing we know for sure is, only John Kerry knows what he will do.

(END VIDEOTAPE) WALLACE: And only John Kerry knows when he will make up his mind. One Democratic source telling us tonight, do not expect any decision this month. The candidate himself saying he'll make a decision sometime before the convention.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Well, that's a lot of help.

WALLACE: Exactly.

BROWN: I'm glad we'll know before the convention.

Thank you, Kelly.

Now, we could here deal with the likely choices or we could deal with the dreamer's choice. John McCain is certainly that. Every time the senator is asked, he says, no, he doesn't want to do it. He won't do it. But in politics, no doesn't always mean no. Sometimes it means no now but maybe not no later. Which is it with McCain and why is it that of all these possibilities, the least likely to say yes is the one so many lust after? Well, maybe lust isn't exactly the right word, but you get the drift.

Peter Beinart is the editor of "The New Republic" and Peter joins us tonight from Washington.

What is it about Senator McCain that seems to get everybody kind of hopped up on all of this?

PETER BEINART, EDITOR, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": I think it's because he represents the one chance that John Kerry would have of breaking out of this 50/50 partisan split that the country has been locked into.

To take a Republican and not a liberal Republican, but someone who in some ways has bona fide conservative credentials, certainly on national security, would shake up the race in a way -- and make it unpredictable in a way that would be exciting and give John Kerry the chance to break out of the 51/49 kind of divide that he's in now.

BROWN: Because McCain himself is unpredictable?

BEINART: Yes. Because McCain is unpredictable and McCain has strength that are quintessentially Republican strengths, first and foremost, on national security.

He is in some ways the original post Cold War hawk. It is his blueprint in a way that George W. Bush has adopted post-September 11. And so he would cut deep into the Republican advantage on national security.

BROWN: When he says no, do you think he means no?

BEINART: I don't know. Obviously, you would never -- you would bet against it. But it seems to me the one reason -- one reason this does stay alive I think is the sense that John McCain is, unlike most politicians, a little bit unpredictable. He does march to his own drummer a little more than some politicians.

(CROSSTALK)

BEINART: .. can imagine.

BROWN: If I may, can I offer another reason why I think it stays out there?

BEINART: Sure.

BROWN: People who know the senator and understand politics know there is no love lost between Senator McCain and George W. Bush. The Bush campaign was very tough, some would say over the top, with Senator McCain in South Carolina four years ago.

BEINART: Absolutely.

And I think people have been -- that animosity between the two has resurfaced a little bit in the wake after Abu Ghraib. You saw that John McCain was very, very tough on Don Rumsfeld, very, very tough on the prosecution of this war. And I think that has resurfaced some of the lingering animosity.

BROWN: Peter, just one last question. We've probably got another half-a-minute or so here. For McCain himself, what is the downside?

BEINART: Oh, I think the downside is being seen as a turncoat, the possibility that he wouldn't really be accepted by Democrats, given for instance his anti-abortion history, and that he would essentially be a man without a party in a kind of a political no- man's-land from which he couldn't return.

BROWN: That is a downside. That is say downside. Good to have you with us. Nice to see you again, Peter. Thank you.

BEINART: Nice to be back.

BROWN: Still to come on the program, civil war in Sudan and the families that are suffering.

We'll take a break first. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We return to the African nation of Chad, which is struggling tonight to provide shelter to a tide of refugees. Tens of thousands of people have fled neighboring Western Sudan to escape the Arab militias which have been terrorizing the black population. With plenty of its own struggles, Chad has become a safe haven.

Again tonight, here is CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twelve thousand Sudanese refugees crowd the U.N. camp at Iridime in eastern Chad. Everyone, it seems, has the same sad story.

I can't find my mother, says 13-year-old Daoud. He says they were separated three months ago as they fled in panic from a government-bombing raid in Darfur, which killed his father. Shari Sudavov was a teacher in the village of Connoe. He too said he fled the Sudanese government bombs and murderous raids by the janjaweed militia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't distinguish between men, women, or old men. They just kill everyone. Everybody they see they will kill.

AMANPOUR: His wife, Mastura is still traumatized. She doesn't know what happened to their eight-year-old son. Huta told us that five of her brothers were among 50 killed in her village. She says she was lucky to escape the ordeal faced by many of Darfur's woman. They rape women, she says, the militias took away 10 women from my village. U.N. officials estimate the women and children make up 80 percent of this camp's population.

The men, they fear, have either been killed or stayed back to fight. These people say they'll remain refugees in Chad unless the international community guarantees their safe return.

(on camera): High winds, sandstorms and soon the heavy rains just add to the massive logistical hurdles the U.N. faces. It still has to find shelter for some 75,000 refugees out in the wild.

DAN SUTHER, USAID: When we first came in December, January, the refugees were scattered along the border, 1,000 kilometers, 600 miles of border, living out in the open with freezing temperatures at night.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Now the U.S. government is spending about $15 million on the U.N. shelter and food programs in Chad. The U.N.'s Helene Caux says the rains will wipe out these roads to remotely strewn refugees within weeks.

HELENE CAUX, UNHCR: We have moved up to 55,000 people as of today. And basically, you know, we are facing huge logistical constraints and we cannot be on every front.

AMANPOUR: She says they need more money and more help. And some aid agencies say that lack of money and a lack of manpower risks tens of thousands of refugee lives.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Iridime Camp in Eastern Chad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, with just three days to go before gay marriages begin in Massachusetts, another court challenge. A federal court judge ruled on that coming up -- much more, too.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Starting Monday, Massachusetts will begin performing gay marriages, as the state Supreme Court ruled that it must last November. Today, a federal district court judge rejected a last- minute effort by conservative groups to block the ruling, the judge saying the Massachusetts Supreme Court acted within its authority last fall. The plaintiffs immediately appealed and said they'll go all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court if necessary. The 1st U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has agreed top review the case on an expedited basis. So we'll see how that turns out.

A brief look now at a few other stories that made news today around the country.

St. Petersburg, Florida, a calm morning after a very difficult night; 100 police officers had their hands full trying to manage a crowd that kept growing larger and more unruly. There were reports of gunfire, looting, a car set afire, at least five injuries. The cause of the upset was the beginning of a court case brought by the family of a black teenager killed by a white police officer back in 1996.

In three south central Kansas counties, it was "The Wizard of Oz" all over again. Only, the tornado you're looking at is on the level, no special effects. The good news here is, while the pictures are terrific, no one was hurt.

Finally, in Washington, federal officials today ordered the Reverend Al Sharpton to repay $100,000 in matching funds he received of his now defunct presidential campaign. A investigation concluded that Reverend Sharpton had exceeded the spending limits and therefore did not qualify for matching funds.

On to other money matters now. Dell Computer reported sharply higher earnings today. Profits at the world's No. 1 P.C. maker jumped to 20 percent. And on that news, the stock sold off. Go figure.

High above the Mojave Desert, a spaceship with the right stuff and a twist. In this case, NASA had nothing to do with it. Spaceship One, as it's called, is a private endeavor. There it goes. It soared 40 miles today, chasing a $10 million prize. The first privately developed ship to carry three astronauts 62 miles high, return to Earth, and then repeat the trick will get the money.

Speaking of money, markets were pretty much -- did I hear a cash register there? -- up and down today, pretty much stuck on Earth. That's your "Moneyline Roundup" there.

Still ahead tonight, we'll check morning papers and more.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world.

Before we begin, we mentioned a couple of times tonight that we would take you to Landstuhl and a Beth Nissen piece on the wounded and the people who care for them. And we had some problem in the edit room. We're in a new building. Sometimes, that stuff happens. We'll have it tomorrow. I promise it is worth the wait. And that's the truth.

Now on to morning papers. If we say we're going to do something, we need to explain why we don't sometimes.

"The International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times." It's so straight, I should maybe just stop doing it. "Rumsfeld In Iraq Vows No Cover-Up. Paris Won't Send Troops." I'm shocked to hear that. Aren't you? "Prison Visit A Surprise" the lead on the Rumsfeld visit. It was actually a pretty interesting day, wasn't it?

"The Christian Science Monitor," I'm loving this paper more and more all the time, leads this way, "A Deepening Rift At The Pentagon. Rumsfeld's Surprise Visit to Iraq Should Help Buoy Troops, But DOD Is Still Riven by the Scandal." This is a good story here. "Rise of an Iraq Generation in Europe. Disgust at Prison Photos Probably Rules Out the Chance That NATO Will Offer Military Support to Secure Iraq." We talked about that earlier in the program with General Joulwan. That's "The Christian Science Monitor."

"The Detroit News" leads local. "Metro Suburbs Slash Police, Fire and Library. Residents, Workers Fear Impact of Service Cuts." It is still a tough time, even as the economy improves, for lots of cities and municipalities around the country." Oh, also up here, the weekend guide. "Pitt Is Intense, Cool, Buff in 'Troy'." Those are words often applied to me, aren't they? No, they're not.

"The Santa Rosa News." That's Santa Rosa, New Mexico, dedicated to the progress of this city, county and state. Just give me a shot here, OK? You see these kids? I'm a sucker for kids. That's the truth. Preschool class of 2004. This is why I like smalltown newspapers, because you get the really important stuff. And these kids are graduating and God bless them for that.

How we doing on time, Sharon (ph)?

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Thanks. Scared me.

"Rumsfeld: No More Abuse" is the headline in "The Miami Herald." Down here, this is a story lots of states are struggling with. "Odds Get Better For Vote on Slots." Florida Supreme Court made it more likely voters statewide will decide whether Broward and Miami-Dade, Fort Lauderdale and Miami, horse racing and dog race tracks and jai alai. They still play jai alai down there will have slot machines. These industries, the horse racing industry and dog racing and others look at slots as the only way to save themselves, because people can constantly bet, as opposed to betting nine times.

"Unlucky Link Delayed Berg" is the way "The Philadelphia Headline" -- "Philadelphia Headline" inquires the story. That would be, "The Philadelphia Inquirer" Headlines the story. "Al Qaeda Suspect Used His Computer." That is the strangest coincidence, if you will -- and what else can you call it? -- I have ever heard of. Also, they lead hockey. It is a big hockey town. "Bolts Shock Flyers in Game Three 4-1." Who are the bolts? Is that Tampa Bay? Thank you.

And we'll end with "The Chicago Sun-Times," because that pretty much ends it. "Sands, Swords, Sex and Sandals." That's a pretty good headline there. "Brad Pitt's 'Troy' is Still a Mediocre Movie" is their review on that. "Feds Shut Rap Studio in Major Gang Bust" is the big headline. "MOB Records Owner Accused of Running Chicago's Black Disciples," A local gang there. And they will fill in the rest of it. Also, a big picture of Secretary Rumsfeld.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago for those of you who keep track of such things, and I know many, many of you do, is "Setback"; 64 degrees and rainy, it looks like to me.

We'll take a break and wrap up the night in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Two pieces of business before you leave, one promo and one very cool story.

The promo first. Here is Soledad O'Brien with a look ahead at "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," the father of one of those U.S. soldiers facing court-martial in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Sergeant Javal Davis, a New Jersey native, his lawyer calls him a great American hero. Was he forced to mistreat Iraqi prisoners by his superiors? We're going to talk about that on CNN tomorrow 7:00 a.m. Eastern -- Aaron, back to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Soledad, thank you.

Finally tonight from us, is there any place left where carbs aren't are the enemy? Probably not. But there is a place where the good fight is still being fought, Italy. Where else?

Here is CNN's Jim Bittermann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are like little soldiers marching off to war, flour and water squirted and shaped, dried and toughened and made ready to do battle With Atkins or South Beach or any other opponent daring to suggest Italy's comfort food carbohydrates are the enemy.

True, this country is loaded with them. You got your pizza and your pasta and your risotto and paninis, your bread sticks and bread, ricetta and calzones. And while one of Italy's largest pasta makers says so far at least there is no evidence carbohydrate avoidance diets are affecting sales, down on the Spaghetti Works production floor, the biting comments against the low-carbers give new meaning to the expression al dente.

MILA CANTAGALLO, PASTA ADVOCATE: And I also would like to remind that Mr. Atkins was not so thin.

BITTERMANN (on camera): The campaigners against carbs have proved so worrisome that earlier this year fretting fettuccine makers and physicians and nutritionists and chefs gathered here in Rome for a council of war, what one participant described as, pasta fights back, an effort to stick up for starch and stiffen the pasta resistance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my bible.

BITTERMANN (voice-over): And with good reason, because are there signs even in pro-carb Italy that low-carb advocates are sneaking in under the nutrition charts. After working abroad, Francesa Bashara (ph) returned to her native land infected with new diet ideas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't have any pizza or bread or anything like that.

BITTERMANN (on camera): Don't you -- aren't there some days you just wish you had a pizza?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I used to, but not anymore.

BITTERMANN (voice-over): Francesa knows that some here might regard her as the enemy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm the enemy, yes. Most people in Italy would follow this diet, all you're seeing, nobody would be buying pasta anymore.

BITTERMANN: Back in the pasta research labs of a giant Italian macaroni maker, where spaghetti is put to the test in the name of science, there is the knowledge that some competitors in the industry are concocting new low-carbohydrate formulas for pasta. But researchers insist they just don't match up to the classic recipes.

And the makers of traditional pastas are for now refusing to change their high-carb ways just to accommodate what they hope is a passing diet fad. And they hope too that Italians will not forget their long carbohydrate heritage, best summarized perhaps by one of the nation's greatest film stars, Sophia Loren, who once said, everything you see, I owe to spaghetti.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's our report for tonight. Good to have you with us. We're back tomorrow at the usual time. It's Friday. That means morning papers and the tabloids, too. So we hope you'll join us for that.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for most of you is coming up next.

Until tomorrow, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 13, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
If the purpose of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's quick trip to Iraq today was in part to boost the morale of the troops, we hope he succeeded. It's been a miserable series of weeks for them, the fighting, the more than 130 deaths, the hundreds more wounded and now the prison scandal.

These weeks have been a test for the administration and more and more even the friends and supporters are raising questions. Particularly we notice in the halls of Congress and in the conservative press, talk about post war planning or lack thereof, about the need for more troops and more help, a clear view of how to get out. You hear this uneasiness more and more, the George Wills and the Andrew Sullivan's just to name a couple.

There is a rising concern the administration has made serious mistakes and now have serious consequences and the windows for correcting them are closing rapidly.

And so the whip begins in Baghdad with CNN's Ben Wedeman, Ben a headline from you tonight.

BEN WEDEMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Secretary Rumsfeld went to prison today, Abu Ghraib Prison that is, and in the place where the whole prisoner abuse scandal began he seemed to find a moment of relief from all his troubles.

BROWN: Ben, thank you.

The Pentagon next and what Mr. Rumsfeld is returning to or leaving. Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre with that side of things tonight, Jamie a headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld said it wasn't an inspection tour. It was more of a thank you tour. But while he was in Iraq insisting that the U.S. adhere to the Geneva Conventions, his deputy was on Capitol Hill conceding that even if U.S. interrogation techniques weren't illegal they might be inhumane.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you.

On to the murder now of Nick Berg, his return home today. CNN's Maria Hinojosa again tonight in suburban Philadelphia and Maria the headline from there. MARIA HINOJOSA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, after three days of silence, Nick Berg's father broke his silence. There weren't tears but there was anger and pointed accusations.

BROWN: Maria, thank you.

And finally, presidential politics back on the menu, more specifically vice presidential politics. Kelly Wallace on top of our ticket with that, Kelly a headline.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, tonight John Kerry went to look at those Iraqi prisoner abuse photos on Capitol Hill, while behind the scenes his advisers continue the search for his number two. What would make an idea candidate? That is a question we try to answer tonight -- Aaron.

BROWN: Kelly, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest coming up.

Also on the program tonight, another curiosity in the sad case of Nick Berg. This one goes back three years to a chance encounter with al Qaeda and that man, Zacarias Moussaoui.

Plus, Nissen returns to Germany, the first stop home for America's war wounded. It has been a busy and grim month at Landstuhl and Nissen reports tonight.

And later, of course, the rooster stops by with hopefully your morning papers, if not we got trouble, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with Secretary Rumsfeld and his surprise trip to Baghdad. He didn't stay long, just seven hours. He didn't see much after landing in the middle of a sandstorm. He visited Abu Ghraib Prison but not the prisoners themselves.

He went, he said, to boost morale and did for the troops and perhaps for himself as well. The secretary hasn't had a very good couple of weeks to say the least and today he looked more than happy to trade the war zone in Washington for the real one in Baghdad.

We have two reports on this tonight, first from Baghdad CNN's Ben Wedeman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WEDEMAN (voice-over): Eight time zones from Washington, inside Abu Ghraib Prison, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld seemed liberated from a scandal that began here.

On a surprise visit to Iraq, the outwardly buoyant American defense secretary touched on the scandal when meeting with soldiers in the mess hall at Abu Ghraib.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: And it's been a body blow for all of us. WEDEMAN: But he was far more focused on bolstering morale and calming the storm.

RUMSFELD: The right thing for us to do is to come out here and look you folks in the eye and tell you that we think you're terrific. We admire your service.

WEDEMAN: The warm reception here a far cry from Washington's angry denunciations and calls for resignation.

Outside the prison walls, a far chillier reception from Iraqis waiting for news of imprisoned relatives.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through interpreter): He will do nothing good. It's just propaganda. He will do nothing.

WEDEMAN: Three military policemen from Abu Ghraib are facing courts martial. More trials are expected.

Later in the palace built by Saddam Hussein, Rumsfeld held what was billed as a town meeting, then was mobbed by enthusiastic soldiers.

(on camera): Even if there were no prisoner abuse scandal, Secretary Rumsfeld has plenty to ponder here. Since his last visit in February, around 230 U.S. troops have died in Iraq in some of the most intense combat since the fall of Saddam Hussein's regime.

(voice-over): But under withering fire at home, Mr. Rumsfeld found temporary relief in a country at war.

Ben Wedeman, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: If by changing date lines Secretary Rumsfeld intended to soften the headlines, the jury remains out. Calls for him to resign keep coming so do questions for Paul Wolfowitz his right-hand man. Senators gave Wolfowitz a grilling today.

Also today the war's estimated price tag rose by another $60 billion for next year, all of which Jamie McIntyre told us last night is shaking the Pentagon, none of which, however, is rocking Mr. Rumsfeld, at least not so far as he's letting on.

Here again is Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): Peering out the window of a heavily- armored vehicle, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs Chairman General Richard Myers approached the Abu Ghraib Prison, now notorious for the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by U.s. soldiers.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Thanks for your service. We appreciate it. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, sir.

MCINTYRE: At the prison...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every detainee has a cot, so they'll have heating and cooling in there.

MCINTYRE: And afterward at a town hall meeting, Rumsfeld reassured his troops that America's Iraq policy is on track and despite calls for his head he is still firmly in charge.

RUMSFELD: It's a fact I'm a survivor.

MCINTYRE: On the plane ride over, Rumsfeld denied his surprise Iraq trip was to throw water on a fire and he said Pentagon lawyers are advising against the official release of abuse photos arguing that would violate Geneva Convention prohibitions against exposing prisoners to public curiosity.

RUMSFELD: I'd be happy to release them all to the public and to get it behind us but at the present time I don't know anyone in the legal shop in any element of the government that's recommending it.

MCINTYRE: But on Capitol Hill more questions about whether the Pentagon's approved interrogation techniques, which include sensory depravation and stress positions violate the Geneva Conventions on prisoner treatment.

SEN. JACK REED (D), RHODE ISLAND: A bag over your head for 72 hours, is that humane?

PAUL WOLFOWITZ, DEPUTY DEFENSE SECRETARY: Let me come back to you what you said the work of the government...

REED: No, no, answer the question sir, is that humane? Anybody would say putting a bag over someone's head for 72 hours, which is sensory depravation.

WOLFOWITZ: I believe it's not humane. It strikes me as not humane.

MCINTYRE: Under the Geneva Conventions, "prisoners may not be exposed to any unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: The admission by Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz that U.S. interrogation techniques may be inhumane, if not illegal, came as his boss, Defense Secretary Rumsfeld was in Iraq insisting that the U.S. adheres to the spirit of the Geneva Conventions -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, I know there is no way to simply answer this and for that I apologize for asking but there has to be somewhere between please tell us what you know, Mr. Detainee, and subjecting them to torture that fairness lies but, if you read that Geneva Convention line, it doesn't sound like there's a whole lot of wiggle room.

MCINTYRE: Well, you know, if you think about it, Aaron, it's very similar to what police in the United States can do in questioning suspects. There are a lot of things they can do.

For instance, police officers don't have to tell the truth to their people that they've arrested. They can try to trick them. They can use various techniques to put them under stress but they can't treat them inhumanely. They certainly can't strip them and put hoods on their heads.

So, it's along those lines and, you know, this is a case where the Golden Rule applies. You want to treat prisoners under your custody the way that you would want your prisoners treated if they were captured by somebody else and many members of Congress believe the U.S. simply hasn't met that standard.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you very much, nicely done there too, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon tonight.

More now on the broader subject of who was being interrogated and how. Some without a doubt happen to be very bad guys and knowing what they know matters a lot. Getting at that information, or at least trying to, has been ugly and perhaps legally iffy as well and to some would say so what?

That's a debatable point we'll argue but it isn't one that -- what isn't here is the practices we're learning and, in some cases, tried and true methods, in some cases yet another example of how rules have changed in the new normal.

Here again, CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): U.S. officials confirm that after 9/11 new rules were approved by the president allowing additional forms of pressure by the CIA against al Qaeda prisoners. They refused to be more specific. Former officials say that pressure includes sleep deprivation, use of heat, cold, light and loud noise.

"The New York Times" reports that in the case of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammad interrogators have used a technique known as water boarding in which a prisoner is strapped down, forcibly pushed under water and made to believe he might drown. U.S. officials say they are now certain that Mohammad personally killed "Wall Street Journal" reporter Danny Pearl by beheading him with a knife.

(on camera): While refusing to comment on interrogation techniques, one official said if Pearl's killer suffered "a bit of discomfort that would not bother this official one bit."

(voice-over): The same would go for Abu Musab al-Zarqawi if they could catch him, officials say. CIA officials now say the hooded terrorist who spoke on the tape of American Nick Berg's murder and then actually killed him is with high probability Zarqawi himself. In the wake of the photos of abuse in Iraq, some in Congress are now calling for Geneva Convention protection for all prisoners, even terrorist leaders.

SEN. DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D), CALIFORNIA: We can't be hypocrites. We can't go out there and say one thing and do another and debase ourselves and debase our own people.

ENSOR: But shortly after 9/11, President Bush decided the U.S. would not give that protection to prisoners from non-state entities, like al Qaeda, that do not themselves honor the convention.

STEPHEN CAMBONE, UNDERSECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR INTELLIGENCE: To grant terrorists the rights they so cruelly reject would make a mockery of the Geneva Conventions.

ENSOR: U.S. intelligence officials draw a sharp distinction between what they see as the illegal abuses of Iraqi prisoners and the pressure the CIA puts on al Qaeda prisoners. Pressure, officials stress, has been specifically approved in writing by the White House and the Justice Department.

David Ensor, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: On now to Nick Berg, whose body came home today to Dover Air Force Base in Delaware and whose arrival his family was not permitted to attend. In the midst of their grieving it isn't their only complaint about how the government has handled this whole sad affair. More on that in a moment.

First, though, a reminder of what they and their neighbors have lost. Here's CNN's Maria Hinojosa.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HINOJOSA (voice-over): After three days of silence and seclusion, Nick Berg's father emerged. There were no tears, instead anger.

BERG: Nicholas Berg died for the sins of George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld. The al Qaeda people are probably just as bad as they are.

HINOJOSA: His son, he says, supported the war, supported President Bush. Father and son, he said, on opposite ends of the political spectrum.

BERG: I would like to ask George Bush a question. I would like to ask him if it's true that al Qaeda offered to trade my son's life for the life of another person and, if that is true, well I need that information.

I need that information and I think that the people of the United States of America need to know what the fate of their sons and daughters might be in the hands of the Bush administration. HINOJOSA: The U.S. has said, however, it knew of no offer from al Qaeda that would have saved Nick Berg's life.

The family received flowers and letters from around the world but the question persists. Why was this smart, young man in Iraq alone without a guide, a translator or security? His friends spoke on "Good Morning America."

LUKE LORENZ, FRIEND OF NICHOLAS BERG: It was part of his vision. It was part of -- something inside of him said that he wanted to be there, be a part of the process to rebuild.

HINOJOSA: Michael Berg says his son wanted to see the good in all people, maybe even his captors.

BERG: The al Qaeda that killed my son didn't know what they were doing. They killed their best friend. Nick was there to build Iraq, not to tear it down. He was there to help people not to hurt anyone.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HINOJOSA: But for the Berg family there can only be hurt as they prepare for a difficult day tomorrow. There will be a private funeral just for the family and then in the afternoon a memorial and a chance for friends to say a final goodbye to Nick Berg -- Aaron.

BROWN: Maria, thank you, Maria Hinojosa outside of Philadelphia tonight.

There's nothing quite as difficult as the family's pain is there? Beyond the tragedy of Nick Berg's demise there are questions, questions about what happened before his abduction, during his encounter first with the Iraqi police and then with the FBI and to the questions and curiosities tonight, add this one, a coincidence, a big one.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ties between Nicholas Berg and Zacarias Moussaoui, the only person charged in the U.S. in connection to 9/11, trace back to Oklahoma.

BERG: Nick went to Oklahoma University and he was taking a course that was in a remote campus and you're on a bus. That remote campus was near the airport where some terrorist people, who no one knew were terrorists at the time, they were just fellow students, were also taking that bus and someone asked him how to -- now to -- asked him basically to let him use his computer and he did.

ARENA: U.S. officials say that Berg shared his computer and his password with one individual and that password somehow ended up in Moussaoui's possession.

BERG: It turned out that this guy was a terrorist and that he, you know, used my son's e-mail amongst many other people's e-mail who he did the same thing to.

ARENA: The FBI tracked Berg down and his father said that his son cooperated fully. Michael Berg said the incident happened several years ago. Moussaoui took flight lessons in Oklahoma in 2001.

(on camera): It's a curious twist and some suggest a possible reason the FBI felt compelled to interview Berg three times in Iraq before clearing him for release.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Nick Berg was a very long way from home when he died, a very long way from home in a very dangerous spot but even in that dangerous spot where heaven knows a lot of Americans have a lot of enemies, Nick Berg was not without friends. He seems to have been like that the kind of guy who could connect no matter the circumstances.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SABAH TALEB MEHDI, GYM OWNER (through interpreter): He never appeared to care about the warnings or danger. He used to walk like he was in Washington or somewhere like that he knew.

BROWN (voice-over): He connected with Sabah Taleb Mehdi, the owner of a gym in which he regularly worked out. He connected too with Hugo Infante, a journalist from Chile.

HUGO INFANTE, CHILEAN JOURNALIST: I think all the guests here, the people who knew him here, it was really, they were really friendly with him because he never spoke a bad word about Iraq, you know. He always say good things about Iraq. He loved these people. He loved the town.

BROWN: And, of course, he connected with fellow American Robert Andrew Duke, another businessman on his own in Iraq.

ANDREW ROBERT DUKE, INDEPENDENT BUSINESS OPERATOR IN IRAQ: In the evening we sat in my room. We talked about, you know, what a 26- year-old guy was going to do with the rest of his life, how he was in good shape, how he was looking forward to having a relationship.

BROWN: To his Chilean friend, Nick Berg made a good adventure yarn of what happened to him. He told the story this way.

INFANTE: Oh, you want to hear a funny story about me? I was in prison, man. Why? Because the Iraqi police catch me one night in Mosul and they saw my passport. My passport, in my passport I have my Jewish last name.

BROWN: What happened after that Nick Berg would not live to tell but the world has come to know anyway as has his friend Sabah Mehdi.

MEHDI (through interpreter): I saw a picture of five men standing with heads covered in black and making a declaration and I saw a man sitting on the ground with his hands tied. I dropped the cup I was holding and started shouting this is Nick. This is Nick. I began to cry. I was very saddened.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Again, memorial services for Nick Berg tomorrow.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight we go back to Landstuhl, the military hospital there. We've been there before and sine then things have only gotten more difficult.

Plus, the separations caused by civil war, Christiane Amanpour tonight on the thousands fleeing the rape and the murder in Sudan.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well the saying goes once the bell is rung you can't un- ring it. Many developments in Iraq would seem to support the observation. The Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal has made an already difficult situation much worse, so the question tonight is there any way to mute what cannot be un-rung? To put it another way is there any way out of this mess?

General George Joulwan is the former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, a graduate of West Point. He served two combat tours in Vietnam and also served in the Pentagon and the White House and we talked to him last night when we were in Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Maybe this should be the end question and I'll start with it. Is it too late for the country to internationalize in a grander scale or real scale some would say the effort in Iraq?

GEN. GEORGE JOULWAN, FORMER NATO SUPREME ALLIED COMMANDER: No. I truly believe that needs to happen and it's not too late. There are two very important events that are going to take place.

One is what happens on June 30th, July 1st of this year when sovereignty goes to the Iraqi government. The other event is five or six months from now in January of '05 on the election.

We have gone from the war fight, the taking of Baghdad, et cetera, to stabilization and that stabilization is a mission and to do that requires not just United States forces but it requires the international community and primarily not just military forces. It requires political, diplomatic, as well as security forces.

BROWN: Why?

JOULWAN: Well, because for a government to be legitimized for sovereignty of the Iraqi government to take place there is no better organization for that than the United Nations for stabilization to take place, as you move toward elections in January of '05.

I was part of that in Bosnia. Part of my mission from the North Atlantic Council that was acting under a U.N. resolution that was really led by the United States was to have elections in Bosnia in 1996 and so the military supported the civilian agencies that were going to conduct those elections.

BROWN: How do we convince, how does the administration if it were so inclined, how do they convince these countries who feel they were treated somewhat disrespectfully in the build-up to the war to enter a country now that is anything but stable?

JOULWAN: Again it's going to take great leadership on our part but the issue here is that those nations also have a stake in what's happening, so what it's going to require, and to be candid and clear here, you have to give NATO a seat at the table.

You have to include them in the discussion. That may be too much for this administration to do but I think it needs to be done. We need to broaden the base and in this phase it has to happen now on the sovereignty that takes place on June 30th and the elections.

If we want that create the best conditions for success then I think you have to internationalize it with both the U.N. and NATO and that doesn't mean we give up everything. I think we need to provide the leadership to make sure that we stay on course and that these events are conducted successfully.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And, again, we talked to the general last night when we were in Washington.

Politics just ahead, John Kerry's choice of a running mate, the possibility, a delicious one for many that he'll reach across party lines to make it.

We'll take a break first. On CNN this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: On to the campaign trail we go. In several battleground states this week, John Kerry has been focusing on healthcare issues. Today, in Arkansas, he questioned the president's commitment to veterans' healthcare.

Behind the scenes, of course, his campaign is focusing on another issue, a critical one picking a running mate. It is the quintessential parlor game in an election year. Who will the presidential challenger bring to the fight?

We begin with CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WALLACE (voice-over): So, who is getting John Kerry's attention? We set out to find the ideal vice presidential candidate, joining us presidential historian Allan Lichtman.

ALLAN LICHTMAN, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Kerry's got gravitas but he doesn't have the swing. He doesn't have the music. Pick someone who is a great crooner out there on the campaign trail.

WALLACE: With that in mind, there's North Carolina Senator John Edwards and, of course, the junior Senator from New York. What does a Hillary Clinton give to John Kerry?

LICHTMAN: Instant celebrity. Everybody knows who Hillary Clinton is.

WALLACE: And that could be a problem. Senator Clinton might overshadow Senator Kerry. So, the presumptive Democratic nominee might tap someone who can help win a battleground state, like Missouri Congressman Dick Gephardt, Iowa's Governor Tom Vilsack, Governor Bill Richardson of New Mexico, or Senator Evan Bayh of Indiana.

LICHTMAN: Evan Bayh is about as close as you're going to get to Ohio since there are hardly any Democrats there.

WALLACE: And then there is the let's-maximize-strength theory, a decorated Vietnam veteran choosing another veteran at a time of uncertainty about the war in Iraq.

LICHTMAN: I can give you Wesley Clark's appeal in one word: He's a general.

WALLACE: And, of course, if Kerry wants to surprise those who think he is not one to take chances, there is the man who keeps saying no, Republican Senator John McCain.

LICHTMAN: He was willing.

WALLACE: The first rule of thumb, make sure the candidate does you no harm. Paul Brountas headed the 1988 search for Governor Michael Dukakis' running mate.

PAUL BROUNTAS, HEADED DUKAKIS CAMPAIGN VICE PRESIDENTIAL SEARCH: We learned from the mistakes of the past. Acting too quickly can cause terrible results.

WALLACE: Brountas refers to 1984, when vice presidential nominee Geraldine Ferraro was a surprise choice. Her husband's business dealings became an issue. Since then, the background checks have become more intense.

BROUNTAS: Everything has to be on the table. Otherwise, all you need is one -- what you don't want is a surprise in the middle of the campaign.

WALLACE: So while the Kerry team scours the records of contenders and we keep talking about who might be ideal, the only thing we know for sure is, only John Kerry knows what he will do.

(END VIDEOTAPE) WALLACE: And only John Kerry knows when he will make up his mind. One Democratic source telling us tonight, do not expect any decision this month. The candidate himself saying he'll make a decision sometime before the convention.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Well, that's a lot of help.

WALLACE: Exactly.

BROWN: I'm glad we'll know before the convention.

Thank you, Kelly.

Now, we could here deal with the likely choices or we could deal with the dreamer's choice. John McCain is certainly that. Every time the senator is asked, he says, no, he doesn't want to do it. He won't do it. But in politics, no doesn't always mean no. Sometimes it means no now but maybe not no later. Which is it with McCain and why is it that of all these possibilities, the least likely to say yes is the one so many lust after? Well, maybe lust isn't exactly the right word, but you get the drift.

Peter Beinart is the editor of "The New Republic" and Peter joins us tonight from Washington.

What is it about Senator McCain that seems to get everybody kind of hopped up on all of this?

PETER BEINART, EDITOR, "THE NEW REPUBLIC": I think it's because he represents the one chance that John Kerry would have of breaking out of this 50/50 partisan split that the country has been locked into.

To take a Republican and not a liberal Republican, but someone who in some ways has bona fide conservative credentials, certainly on national security, would shake up the race in a way -- and make it unpredictable in a way that would be exciting and give John Kerry the chance to break out of the 51/49 kind of divide that he's in now.

BROWN: Because McCain himself is unpredictable?

BEINART: Yes. Because McCain is unpredictable and McCain has strength that are quintessentially Republican strengths, first and foremost, on national security.

He is in some ways the original post Cold War hawk. It is his blueprint in a way that George W. Bush has adopted post-September 11. And so he would cut deep into the Republican advantage on national security.

BROWN: When he says no, do you think he means no?

BEINART: I don't know. Obviously, you would never -- you would bet against it. But it seems to me the one reason -- one reason this does stay alive I think is the sense that John McCain is, unlike most politicians, a little bit unpredictable. He does march to his own drummer a little more than some politicians.

(CROSSTALK)

BEINART: .. can imagine.

BROWN: If I may, can I offer another reason why I think it stays out there?

BEINART: Sure.

BROWN: People who know the senator and understand politics know there is no love lost between Senator McCain and George W. Bush. The Bush campaign was very tough, some would say over the top, with Senator McCain in South Carolina four years ago.

BEINART: Absolutely.

And I think people have been -- that animosity between the two has resurfaced a little bit in the wake after Abu Ghraib. You saw that John McCain was very, very tough on Don Rumsfeld, very, very tough on the prosecution of this war. And I think that has resurfaced some of the lingering animosity.

BROWN: Peter, just one last question. We've probably got another half-a-minute or so here. For McCain himself, what is the downside?

BEINART: Oh, I think the downside is being seen as a turncoat, the possibility that he wouldn't really be accepted by Democrats, given for instance his anti-abortion history, and that he would essentially be a man without a party in a kind of a political no- man's-land from which he couldn't return.

BROWN: That is a downside. That is say downside. Good to have you with us. Nice to see you again, Peter. Thank you.

BEINART: Nice to be back.

BROWN: Still to come on the program, civil war in Sudan and the families that are suffering.

We'll take a break first. Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We return to the African nation of Chad, which is struggling tonight to provide shelter to a tide of refugees. Tens of thousands of people have fled neighboring Western Sudan to escape the Arab militias which have been terrorizing the black population. With plenty of its own struggles, Chad has become a safe haven.

Again tonight, here is CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Twelve thousand Sudanese refugees crowd the U.N. camp at Iridime in eastern Chad. Everyone, it seems, has the same sad story.

I can't find my mother, says 13-year-old Daoud. He says they were separated three months ago as they fled in panic from a government-bombing raid in Darfur, which killed his father. Shari Sudavov was a teacher in the village of Connoe. He too said he fled the Sudanese government bombs and murderous raids by the janjaweed militia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They don't distinguish between men, women, or old men. They just kill everyone. Everybody they see they will kill.

AMANPOUR: His wife, Mastura is still traumatized. She doesn't know what happened to their eight-year-old son. Huta told us that five of her brothers were among 50 killed in her village. She says she was lucky to escape the ordeal faced by many of Darfur's woman. They rape women, she says, the militias took away 10 women from my village. U.N. officials estimate the women and children make up 80 percent of this camp's population.

The men, they fear, have either been killed or stayed back to fight. These people say they'll remain refugees in Chad unless the international community guarantees their safe return.

(on camera): High winds, sandstorms and soon the heavy rains just add to the massive logistical hurdles the U.N. faces. It still has to find shelter for some 75,000 refugees out in the wild.

DAN SUTHER, USAID: When we first came in December, January, the refugees were scattered along the border, 1,000 kilometers, 600 miles of border, living out in the open with freezing temperatures at night.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Now the U.S. government is spending about $15 million on the U.N. shelter and food programs in Chad. The U.N.'s Helene Caux says the rains will wipe out these roads to remotely strewn refugees within weeks.

HELENE CAUX, UNHCR: We have moved up to 55,000 people as of today. And basically, you know, we are facing huge logistical constraints and we cannot be on every front.

AMANPOUR: She says they need more money and more help. And some aid agencies say that lack of money and a lack of manpower risks tens of thousands of refugee lives.

Christiane Amanpour, CNN, Iridime Camp in Eastern Chad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, with just three days to go before gay marriages begin in Massachusetts, another court challenge. A federal court judge ruled on that coming up -- much more, too.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Starting Monday, Massachusetts will begin performing gay marriages, as the state Supreme Court ruled that it must last November. Today, a federal district court judge rejected a last- minute effort by conservative groups to block the ruling, the judge saying the Massachusetts Supreme Court acted within its authority last fall. The plaintiffs immediately appealed and said they'll go all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court if necessary. The 1st U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals has agreed top review the case on an expedited basis. So we'll see how that turns out.

A brief look now at a few other stories that made news today around the country.

St. Petersburg, Florida, a calm morning after a very difficult night; 100 police officers had their hands full trying to manage a crowd that kept growing larger and more unruly. There were reports of gunfire, looting, a car set afire, at least five injuries. The cause of the upset was the beginning of a court case brought by the family of a black teenager killed by a white police officer back in 1996.

In three south central Kansas counties, it was "The Wizard of Oz" all over again. Only, the tornado you're looking at is on the level, no special effects. The good news here is, while the pictures are terrific, no one was hurt.

Finally, in Washington, federal officials today ordered the Reverend Al Sharpton to repay $100,000 in matching funds he received of his now defunct presidential campaign. A investigation concluded that Reverend Sharpton had exceeded the spending limits and therefore did not qualify for matching funds.

On to other money matters now. Dell Computer reported sharply higher earnings today. Profits at the world's No. 1 P.C. maker jumped to 20 percent. And on that news, the stock sold off. Go figure.

High above the Mojave Desert, a spaceship with the right stuff and a twist. In this case, NASA had nothing to do with it. Spaceship One, as it's called, is a private endeavor. There it goes. It soared 40 miles today, chasing a $10 million prize. The first privately developed ship to carry three astronauts 62 miles high, return to Earth, and then repeat the trick will get the money.

Speaking of money, markets were pretty much -- did I hear a cash register there? -- up and down today, pretty much stuck on Earth. That's your "Moneyline Roundup" there.

Still ahead tonight, we'll check morning papers and more.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world.

Before we begin, we mentioned a couple of times tonight that we would take you to Landstuhl and a Beth Nissen piece on the wounded and the people who care for them. And we had some problem in the edit room. We're in a new building. Sometimes, that stuff happens. We'll have it tomorrow. I promise it is worth the wait. And that's the truth.

Now on to morning papers. If we say we're going to do something, we need to explain why we don't sometimes.

"The International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times." It's so straight, I should maybe just stop doing it. "Rumsfeld In Iraq Vows No Cover-Up. Paris Won't Send Troops." I'm shocked to hear that. Aren't you? "Prison Visit A Surprise" the lead on the Rumsfeld visit. It was actually a pretty interesting day, wasn't it?

"The Christian Science Monitor," I'm loving this paper more and more all the time, leads this way, "A Deepening Rift At The Pentagon. Rumsfeld's Surprise Visit to Iraq Should Help Buoy Troops, But DOD Is Still Riven by the Scandal." This is a good story here. "Rise of an Iraq Generation in Europe. Disgust at Prison Photos Probably Rules Out the Chance That NATO Will Offer Military Support to Secure Iraq." We talked about that earlier in the program with General Joulwan. That's "The Christian Science Monitor."

"The Detroit News" leads local. "Metro Suburbs Slash Police, Fire and Library. Residents, Workers Fear Impact of Service Cuts." It is still a tough time, even as the economy improves, for lots of cities and municipalities around the country." Oh, also up here, the weekend guide. "Pitt Is Intense, Cool, Buff in 'Troy'." Those are words often applied to me, aren't they? No, they're not.

"The Santa Rosa News." That's Santa Rosa, New Mexico, dedicated to the progress of this city, county and state. Just give me a shot here, OK? You see these kids? I'm a sucker for kids. That's the truth. Preschool class of 2004. This is why I like smalltown newspapers, because you get the really important stuff. And these kids are graduating and God bless them for that.

How we doing on time, Sharon (ph)?

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Thanks. Scared me.

"Rumsfeld: No More Abuse" is the headline in "The Miami Herald." Down here, this is a story lots of states are struggling with. "Odds Get Better For Vote on Slots." Florida Supreme Court made it more likely voters statewide will decide whether Broward and Miami-Dade, Fort Lauderdale and Miami, horse racing and dog race tracks and jai alai. They still play jai alai down there will have slot machines. These industries, the horse racing industry and dog racing and others look at slots as the only way to save themselves, because people can constantly bet, as opposed to betting nine times.

"Unlucky Link Delayed Berg" is the way "The Philadelphia Headline" -- "Philadelphia Headline" inquires the story. That would be, "The Philadelphia Inquirer" Headlines the story. "Al Qaeda Suspect Used His Computer." That is the strangest coincidence, if you will -- and what else can you call it? -- I have ever heard of. Also, they lead hockey. It is a big hockey town. "Bolts Shock Flyers in Game Three 4-1." Who are the bolts? Is that Tampa Bay? Thank you.

And we'll end with "The Chicago Sun-Times," because that pretty much ends it. "Sands, Swords, Sex and Sandals." That's a pretty good headline there. "Brad Pitt's 'Troy' is Still a Mediocre Movie" is their review on that. "Feds Shut Rap Studio in Major Gang Bust" is the big headline. "MOB Records Owner Accused of Running Chicago's Black Disciples," A local gang there. And they will fill in the rest of it. Also, a big picture of Secretary Rumsfeld.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago for those of you who keep track of such things, and I know many, many of you do, is "Setback"; 64 degrees and rainy, it looks like to me.

We'll take a break and wrap up the night in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Two pieces of business before you leave, one promo and one very cool story.

The promo first. Here is Soledad O'Brien with a look ahead at "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," the father of one of those U.S. soldiers facing court-martial in the Iraqi prisoner abuse scandal. Sergeant Javal Davis, a New Jersey native, his lawyer calls him a great American hero. Was he forced to mistreat Iraqi prisoners by his superiors? We're going to talk about that on CNN tomorrow 7:00 a.m. Eastern -- Aaron, back to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Soledad, thank you.

Finally tonight from us, is there any place left where carbs aren't are the enemy? Probably not. But there is a place where the good fight is still being fought, Italy. Where else?

Here is CNN's Jim Bittermann.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): They are like little soldiers marching off to war, flour and water squirted and shaped, dried and toughened and made ready to do battle With Atkins or South Beach or any other opponent daring to suggest Italy's comfort food carbohydrates are the enemy.

True, this country is loaded with them. You got your pizza and your pasta and your risotto and paninis, your bread sticks and bread, ricetta and calzones. And while one of Italy's largest pasta makers says so far at least there is no evidence carbohydrate avoidance diets are affecting sales, down on the Spaghetti Works production floor, the biting comments against the low-carbers give new meaning to the expression al dente.

MILA CANTAGALLO, PASTA ADVOCATE: And I also would like to remind that Mr. Atkins was not so thin.

BITTERMANN (on camera): The campaigners against carbs have proved so worrisome that earlier this year fretting fettuccine makers and physicians and nutritionists and chefs gathered here in Rome for a council of war, what one participant described as, pasta fights back, an effort to stick up for starch and stiffen the pasta resistance.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is my bible.

BITTERMANN (voice-over): And with good reason, because are there signs even in pro-carb Italy that low-carb advocates are sneaking in under the nutrition charts. After working abroad, Francesa Bashara (ph) returned to her native land infected with new diet ideas.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't have any pizza or bread or anything like that.

BITTERMANN (on camera): Don't you -- aren't there some days you just wish you had a pizza?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I used to, but not anymore.

BITTERMANN (voice-over): Francesa knows that some here might regard her as the enemy.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm the enemy, yes. Most people in Italy would follow this diet, all you're seeing, nobody would be buying pasta anymore.

BITTERMANN: Back in the pasta research labs of a giant Italian macaroni maker, where spaghetti is put to the test in the name of science, there is the knowledge that some competitors in the industry are concocting new low-carbohydrate formulas for pasta. But researchers insist they just don't match up to the classic recipes.

And the makers of traditional pastas are for now refusing to change their high-carb ways just to accommodate what they hope is a passing diet fad. And they hope too that Italians will not forget their long carbohydrate heritage, best summarized perhaps by one of the nation's greatest film stars, Sophia Loren, who once said, everything you see, I owe to spaghetti.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Rome.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: That's our report for tonight. Good to have you with us. We're back tomorrow at the usual time. It's Friday. That means morning papers and the tabloids, too. So we hope you'll join us for that.

"LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for most of you is coming up next.

Until tomorrow, good night for all of us.

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