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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Iraqi Prime Minister Chosen; Is Pentagon Playing a Numbers Game?

Aired May 28, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
I may be wrong about this but it seems to me that Memorial Day this year seems different that this year it is longer on the memorial part and shorter on the holiday weekend than most years.

Part of it is that we are still at war, I think, and that more than 800 Americans have died in Iraq now but there's also this. We are aware that we are running out of time to honor the greatest generation. They are our fathers and our grandfathers. They are old men now.

They were lucky in an odd sort of way. Their war was so clear, the stakes indisputable. When they came home they knew what they had done. They received parades but they didn't need them. They knew.

Since then our wars have gotten more complicated, wars of choice or wars without clear victories or wars with no victory at all. It all seemed simpler then. Nothing seems so simple now. This is their Memorial Day and they will remember their fallen comrades and we will honor them.

It is the current war that begins the whip and the possibility that the head of the new Iraqi state has been found. CNN's Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad starts the whip with a headline.

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the name of Iraq's new interim prime minister has emerged but there is still a lot of questions surrounding Iraq's road to sovereignty.

BROWN: Harris, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

On to the White House and the state of play between the United States and the United Nations. Dana Bash at the White House tonight, so Dana the headline.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the president tried to be crystal clear today that when Iraqis take control next month they will have full sovereignty. It was an appeal to the U.N. Security Council that he's trying to get their blessing from but it's also a reminder that they may not be as irrelevant as the president perhaps predicted when they didn't back his war in Iraq -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dana, thank you. Finally now the Pentagon and the case of Sergeant Donald Walters who died in the early days of the war in Iraq. Jamie McIntyre with the story and the headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it now appears one of the real heroes of the ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company is an unsung soldier who the Army now believes was murdered by Iraqis after fighting valiantly -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, we'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight did we learn from Vietnam or is the Pentagon once again playing a numbers game?

A photographer finds beauty in the concrete and the flash of the city of Angels and since it is Friday there's morning papers and morning papers include a tabloid or two, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with another man who might be Iraq's new prime minister or not. The last name to be floated sank or was sunk or torpedoed, we just don't know, nor do we know whose man this new man really is or precisely how he came to be chosen. Sorting out the whys and the how's may take a while. There are many competing theories tonight.

We're left with the who and that's where we begin in Baghdad with CNN's Harris Whitbeck.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WHITBECK (voice-over): The U.N., the United States and the Iraqi Governing Council finally agreed on the name everyone was waiting to hear that of Iraq's future interim prime minister. He is Iyad Allawi, a current member of the council.

The U.N. special envoy's office said he will work with Allawi to select the remainder of Iraq's new government. Now he says it is time to start phasing in democracy and he recognizes it will be difficult.

IYAD ALLAWI, INTERIM PRIME MINISTER OF IRAQ: To expect Iraq to go into a full blown democracy, as you would have in the United States or Britain or Sweden, then we need a lot of time. It's not a joke. We are here talking about people who have never experienced democracy, who have never faced democracy.

WHITBECK: Some Iraqis seem positive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): As long as he is an Iraqi that represents Iraq in the Iraqi people's opinion he will have my support and the support of all the Iraqis.

WHITBECK: Others had doubts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So the governing council had a meeting and chose a prime minister. What is the role of the Iraqi people? They chose him not the Iraqi people.

WHITBECK: With the name of the new interim prime minister now made public at least some of the uncertainty over the political transition has been dissipated. How that new government will be made up is the next question and how that new government will work with the coalition occupying force is the biggest question of all.

Harris Whitbeck, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Not knowing the back story or at least all of it on Dr. Allawi's nomination means not knowing how much control the White House gave to the U.N. on this occasion on this matter. On other matters though the answer seems clear enough.

From the White House tonight CNN's Dana Bash.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): Standing in the Rose Garden with a European ally, the president tried to be crystal clear about the power of the new Iraqi government and the role of the United Nations in creating it.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Complete and full sovereignty to an Iraqi government that will be picked by Mr. Brahimi of the United Nations. He said give me full sovereignty. I said I mean full sovereignty.

BASH: Reassuring words also used in a phone call to Russia's Vladimir Putin from a president working to convince skeptical Security Council members the U.S. will give them what they want full surrender of political control in Iraq.

Returning to the U.N. and relying on its special envoy Lakhdar Brahimi to create an Iraqi government, not where Bush officials thought they would be after issuing pre-war ultimatums like this.

BUSH: Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding or will it be irrelevant?

BASH: Then six months later.

BUSH: The United Nations Security Council has not lived up to its responsibilities so we will rise to ours.

BASH: But the post-war problems, officials admit, were worse than expected and the American-led coalition had little success in building the peace. For example, the powerful Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani refused to meet with U.S. Administrator Paul Bremer but agreed to sit down with Mr. Brahimi.

IVO DAALDER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: We found out that it may not be as easy to use just raw military power to achieve victory and that we need something else. We need legitimacy. BASH: And with the U.S. election just five months away, even members of the president's own party, not fans of the United Nations, concede Mr. Bush is now backed into a corner.

MAX BOOT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I think there are a lot of conservatives who are offended by the very idea of the United States cooperating with the United Nations but I think we have to do what's practical and, at this point, I'm not sure that we have much of a choice.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And a senior administration official admitted this week it was a mistake for any Bush official ever to utter the words limited sovereignty because the official admitted it's made it much harder for the U.S. to convince already skeptical members of the U.N. Security Council that the U.S. means it when they say that they're really trying to turn over political power back to Iraqis -- Aaron.

BROWN: Back to the choice in Iraq today. How has the White House framed this decision by at least at the beginning of the day was presented as the decision of the governing council?

BASH: Well, at the beginning of the day it was really unclear whether or not the White House understood or at least they were publicly going to admit they understood that this was the choice. The word from the White House was that he was one of several choices.

Then by the middle of the afternoon they weren't giving a full on the record blessing to him but they were clearly making it obvious that they thought that he was a good choice.

On the back story, according to administration officials, is that it was a decision, a joint decision by Lakhdar Brahimi, the U.N. envoy, and by officials here and by the Security Council but everybody thought that this was their man but they decided to hold off on announcing it.

But then they sort of were trumped, if you will, by members of the governing council so it took a while for them to let's say get their story straight and decide how they wanted to handle it from there on out -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dana, thank you, Dana Bash tonight.

Richard Roth covers the United Nations for us and Richard is here now. The story does seem to have several chapters written as the day progressed. What's the chapter that you can fill us in on? Is it Brahimi's choice?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the U.N. says this is not the way it wanted to have everything unfold but they say that Brahimi, first they said welcomes then respects the decision and now is comfortable with it.

The people I talked to say he wasn't the first choice for Brahimi. He definitely was on the short list but they weren't expecting, as Dana says, the governing council to step in and they are aware there's a perception that perhaps the process was hijacked by the governing council, which is really going to be out of work on June 30th.

BROWN: Let me -- this is the way the "New York Times" is going to report this tomorrow, OK. The decision to pick Allawi was made by Brahimi, the U.N. envoy and presented to the governing council. Is that what you're hearing at the U.N.? That's the way it's being filed out of Baghdad.

ROTH: Didn't hear that, heard more grudging acceptance that he was a leading candidate that perhaps it's still up to the street in Iraq, which we heard a little bit from Harris Whitbeck to whether to accept it or not.

They're not saying, yes, this was our man. They're saying we can work with him. He was definitely one of the last contenders and Brahimi may indeed have wanted him, we don't know, but he wasn't in the room when the vote took place. He was called over but he had been consulting, crunching the names they told us in the final hours. But look what happened to Mr. Shahristani who maybe Brahimi really wanted but his name got out and then he withdrew the day before.

BROWN: And does -- well, first of all, is there a sense across town that this is a done deal now?

ROTH: It seems so. They're already saying this could be fast, over the weekend. Brahimi will meet with Allawi and they're going to come up with the other names and be ready to present it. The big shock was that everybody was saying these words you've heard often from me and everyone else, waiting for Brahimi.

BROWN: Right.

ROTH: It was supposed to be a big show Brahimi either in Baghdad or the U.N. and it didn't happen.

BROWN: Well and another thing for those who looked at the choice the other day and listened carefully over weeks to what Brahimi has been saying it is a little surprising that they have picked a politician, someone from the IGC, someone from the exile community. There's a lot of things that raise questions here.

ROTH: Brahimi sampled hundreds of people so he was never going to back someone if there were real doubts and he seems to support this guy but they have to sell it to the Kurds, the Sunnis and everyone else and I think we're well familiar with various political groups and organizations dropping bad news out on a Friday.

I mean Baghdad, Friday, day of rest, big holiday here and this could be purposeful incompetence to let's just get it out there. Let's disagree on the motives and it won't be like what happened with Shahristani. I mean they're under threat there.

BROWN: Richard, thank you. I suspect you'll have an interesting week over at the U.N. next week.

As we said at the top we've got lots of questions and a fair amount of theories, as Richard just mentioned floating around about Dr. Allawi and the state of play in Baghdad. Does the U.S. like him more than the Iraqi people like him? Will the Sunnis accept him? A couple of question on the table. Is this a power grab by the Iraqi Governing Council?

Noah Feldman helped draft Iraq's new constitution and it's always good to have him on the program. It's nice to see you tonight. What's your take on this?

NOAH FELDMAN, NYU LAW SCHOOL: Well, the bottom line is that this isn't the end of the story. We've got an interim president who is not elected. If we'd had an election we would have had a much more Islamically oriented president and I think what we're going to see now is that most Iraqis are going to sort of wait and see how this new interim prime minister does and they'll make a judgment when elections come and that will be the real test.

BROWN: Is it -- is this a man who is to your knowledge well known across the country or is he simply well known by the power elite in Iraq?

FELDMAN: He's much better known among the political classes, which means mostly the returnees to Iraq than he is by the ordinary person though people will know his name by the end of the day for sure and they'll know the basic facts about him.

They'll know that he is a Shia by denomination. They'll know that he is something of a secularist. They'll know that he has a strong record of opposing the old regime, though he was once a part of it indirectly.

And they'll know most of all that he's close to the U.S. and I think that's the big question mark. Will the ordinary Iraqi think that this guy is just too close to the U.S., picked by the governing council and now put in charge?

BROWN: What is the view generally in Iraq towards the governing council? Are they seen as at all independent? Are they seen as simply a tool of the Americans and the British? What is it?

FELDMAN: Well, they've been caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they're viewed as irrelevant because they don't actually run the country. They're not really the government. On the other hand, they've been seen as too close to the Americans and to that extent to be blamed for things that the Americans have done wrong.

So, the truth is that the ordinary Iraqi I think doesn't think very positively about the governing council but they have a chance over time to prove themselves individually in government and the more distance there is between the U.S. and the Iraqis the better they'll be able to do that.

BROWN: Would it be a mistake for the White House, for the American government to bless too heartily the choice?

FELDMAN: Well, the most important thing is that we have to get behind this transitional government and provide security for it. The fact that the government will have nominal sovereignty does not mean that we're at the end of the road here. It doesn't mean we can start withdrawing troops.

We need to make absolutely certain that this government is actually supported that it actually can run the show and we need to help them to do that. A lot of people in the U.S. are thinking, well, you know, now that we get closer to transferring sovereignty we're closer to leaving.

That's just not realistically the case, so I think we don't want to put too much distance between ourselves and them. We want to make it really clear that they are the government and therefore we're going to support them.

BROWN: Just quickly are you surprised by the choice?

FELDMAN: I am surprised.

BROWN: Yes.

FELDMAN: If it were not going to be a politician I would have not been surprised but the fact that it is a politician makes you wonder. This person looks like he's really the choice of the governing council to a very great degree.

BROWN: Noah, good to see you. Have a good weekend. Thank you.

FELDMAN: You too.

BROWN: Noah Feldman is in Washington tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, newly uncovered acts of true heroism emerge from one of the earliest battles of the invasion of Iraq, one of the deadliest too.

And a look at the politics of trout fishing. If you want to know what that means you'll have to stay around but you will anyway, won't you, because this is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: You might take a moment to remember them this holiday weekend as well.

Two steps forward, one step back, in the Iraqi city of Najaf. A day after a truce was struck members of Muqtada al-Sadr's militia launched a number of small attacks on U.S. forces. A senior military commander is downplaying the incidents.

We haven't seen or heard from "Newsweek's" Bureau Chief Rod Nordland in Baghdad in a month or so, so we're quite pleased to see him back with us tonight. There are a lot of things on the table. Let's start with what happened today or yesterday your time. Are you surprised by how the governing council seemed to maneuver this that a governing council member will now emerge as prime minister, all of it or none of it?

ROD NORDLAND, "NEWSWEEK" BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, I'm astonished. I'm astonished first of all at the choice of Allawi. He's exactly the kind of person that Brahimi let it known he didn't -- let it be known that he did not want closely associated with the Americans, from the exile community, a politician but without any deep political roots inside the country.

And worst of all from the Iraqi point of view he's going to look like somebody that we chose or that our agents, the governing council that we appointed chose and then at this point in time that's not going to help things at all.

BROWN: And the we in that is the Americans not the United Nations, right?

NORDLAND: We, the Americans that's right. You know he was supported by the CIA for a long period of time and he's closely associated with the Americans and that's what most Iraqis are going to see and it's coming at a time when this new government desperately needs credibility with the Iraqi people if it's going to be able to lead them toward elections and to try to help tamp down the level of violence.

You know it's just impossible to exaggerate how much the mood here has turned against America, mainly because of the prisoner abuse scandal and they really needed somebody who looked like truly an independent figure and he's not going to look like that. Whether or not he is or proves to be he certainly is not going to look like that.

BROWN: The prisoner abuse scandal has faded a good deal from the headlines here. I gather from what you just said it has hardly faded in the Iraqi mind at all.

NORDLAND: No, not at all. I think it's settled in there as kind of final proof that we -- I mean people actually say things like, you know, the Americans are as bad as Saddam and then some people even say worse because they didn't, at least didn't see the sort of sexual abuse that was carried out in that prison, the sexual humiliation and so on and that, that really touches a raw cord here and it's going to be very difficult to regain the kind of prestige and support of the Iraqis that we've lost.

It was already even before that scandal polls were showing a majority of Iraqis against the occupation. There haven't been any polls since the scandal but I doubt if it would be very many Iraqis who any longer have a very positive opinion of the Americans.

BROWN: Did the charging of the American soldiers and the plea bargain I guess by Sivits and the sentencing of Sivits did that have any impact on the Iraqis at all? NORDLAND: Yes, I think it had a negative impact. Unfortunately most Iraqis don't understand our legal system. I don't think they appreciated the nuances of needing Sivits' testimony to make cases against the others and they felt that one year jail term, which was maximum that he could get under our laws, was excessively lenient.

Of course they're used to a regime where people spent ten years in jail often as innocent people and people were executed for very small crimes, so to them this seems like something very minor.

I think they also feel and with some justice that the investigations so far have concentrated on a very few fairly low ranking people and have not really gone after what they see as a kind of systematic abuse, not only at Abu Ghraib but at other places.

BROWN: More interesting days ahead. Good to see you, Rod. Thank you very much, Rod Nordland of "Newsweek" magazine.

Also on the subject of Iraq tonight, "we don't do body counts" is what General Tommy Franks of the U.S. Central Command once said and for the most part the American military hasn't talked about numbers, the numbers of enemy soldiers killed during the war or insurgents killed since or the deaths of civilians either. That is the policy except when it isn't.

From the Pentagon, CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): During the Vietnam War, the military learned a tough lesson. Counting the enemy dead said little about which side was winning the war. So it's no surprise a senior officer who served in Vietnam won't discuss the number of enemy killed in Iraq.

GEN. PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I will not get into X number of dead versus Y number dead. That's not what we do. That's not what this is about.

STARR: But reality is different.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: Coalition forces returned fire resulting in three enemy killed. I think on the last number there were five enemy killed. We believe six were killed.

STARR: Officials deny there is a new policy to count the enemy dead.

KIMMITT: The sheer volume of people that we have had to kill to achieve this is not something that I'm...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But earlier this week you were giving us numbers and all of a sudden yesterday we stopped getting numbers.

KIMMITT: You're right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I wonder is that a change in policy?

KIMMITT: Not at all.

STARR: A slight acknowledgement after some battles when it's possible to count the dead the Pentagon will.

BRIG. GEN. DAVID RODRIGUEZ, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OPERATIONS, J-3 JOINT STAFF: In certain engagements they'll come out and say, you know, they lost approximately this number of people.

STARR (on camera): Behind the scenes some military personnel worry that enemy body counts have crept back into the Pentagon as a means of demonstrating the success against the insurgency in Iraq.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In the long and bloody year since Baghdad fell you may have forgotten the 507th Maintenance Company and the tragedy that befell it. It was the first weekend of the war when a wrong turn led to an ambush that led to deaths and prisoners and heroic stories and there really was a heroic story to be told. It's just taking a long time to get it right.

Here's our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): An Army investigation last year confirmed that Private First Class Jessica Lynch never fired a shot in the March 23, 2003 ambush having been seriously injured and likely knocked unconscious when her Humvee hit another vehicle after coming under fire.

But it now seems some of the heroics falsely attributed to Lynch in a front page "Washington Post" account a year ago, things like "fought fiercely and shot several enemy soldiers," "firing until she ran out of ammunition," and "continued firing after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds," may have been the actions of this soldier, Sergeant Donald Walters who was posthumously awarded the Silver Star for valor last month.

Immediately after the "Post" report, which was eventually retracted, Pentagon sources told CNN the Lynch account was likely the result of confusion that while a battlefield report did describe such valiant actions they were by a male soldier who had died.

After pressure from his family in Oregon and the intervention of a member of Congress, the Army found that "Walters did not die in the fight but was severely wounded after repelling the enemy until he was unable to resist any longer." Now the Army has told Walters' family he was murdered by suspected Fedayeen Saddam fighters while he was a POW.

ARLENE WALTERS, MOTHER: I'm very angry. You know, they took him into a room and shot him in the back. That's not according to the -- that's not the way you're supposed to treat prisoners of war according to the Geneva Convention. That is what you are supposed to do with a prisoner of war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not the last I heard. I'm very angry.

MCINTYRE (on camera): The U.S. is investigating the death as a war crime and officials say there are suspects. Meanwhile, Jessica Lynch has issued a statement saying she is personally grateful for the heroic efforts of Sergeant Walters and crediting him with saving the lives of many of his fellow American soldiers.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still ahead on this Friday night, we take a look at how the presidential candidates differ on homeland security and where they differ.

From around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If there was a disagreement earlier this week between the Justice Department and Homeland Security over the need for a warning about possible terrorist attacks in the coming months, it seems to have been settled today. John Ashcroft and Tom Ridge issued a joint statement that pretty much echoed what Mr. Ashcroft said a few days ago.

At the time, Mr. Ridge seemed to differ with his colleagues about the quality of the intelligence on which this new warning was based. Today's joint statement calls it credible intelligence from multiple sources, so an agreement on that, though you'd like to have been in the room when they worked it all out.

As for how two other figures agree or differ on the war on terrorism, here's CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Fought hard to put those cops on the streets.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Listen to John Kerry and President Bush and you'll hear two candidates saying they will keep America safe.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I can assure you, I will use every asset at my disposal to make sure the American homeland is safe and secure.

KERRY: We need a president who understands that homeland security is not something to talk about. It's something to do something about. WALLACE: Kerry says the president has not done enough or spent enough to prevent another attack. Counterpoint.

BUSH: Since 2001, we have tripled funding for homeland security.

WALLACE: Kerry says he would hire an additional 100,000 firefighters, speed up funding and devote more resources to first- responders and make homeland security a central mission of the National Guard.

KERRY: I think I can do a better job.

WALLACE: The president's plan, continue to beef up the Department of Homeland Security, calling for a 10 percent increase in homeland security funding, and making the Patriot Act, which gives law enforcement more power, permanent.

BUSH: My most solemn duty is to protect America from the enemy.

WALLACE: Homeland security experts say the two plans share more similarities than differences. What sets them apart?

MICHAEL GREENBERGER, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Kerry is more focused on the cities and the first-responders. President Bush is more focused on using the states as a method of bureaucracy of getting to the cities.

WALLACE (on camera): But even as John Kerry travels the country touting his homeland security plan, President Bush continues to gets higher marks in the polls when it comes to who would do a better job fighting terrorism.

(voice-over): Point, Kerry says as more people get to know him and his plan, the polls will move in his direction.

KERRY: I have more experience today, as a senator in foreign affairs and in making our country stronger than George Bush does in his four years as president.

WALLACE: Counterpoint.

BUSH: I have spoken clearly to the American people and to the world. And when I say something, I mean it.

WALLACE: Who voters trust more to keep America safe may well be the victor in November.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, Green Bay, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So there now you have the candidates on the subject of keeping America safe. Now some voters on the candidates, voters of a particular stripe, as in trout and white-tailed deer.

CNN's Frank Buckley tonight pursuing likely voters in their native habitat.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Frank Kuhn is an avid fisherman.

FRANK KUHN, REPUBLICAN: There's a big old brown down there waiting for me.

BUCKLEY: Who's just as passionate about his politics. He's a hard-core Republican and a President Bush supporter.

KUHN: He had my vote in 2000 and there's no doubt he is going to get my vote this fall as well.

BUCKLEY: Guys like Kuhn who hunt and fish are part of the Republican base.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good shot.

BUCKLEY: But some political observers say President Bush cannot take them for granted this year. Take Tony Dean, who hosts this widely watched outdoors program on Midwest TV stations.

TONY DEAN, REPUBLICAN: This is the prairie pothole country.

BUCKLEY: When we caught up with him in South Dakota on a freezing cold day in May, the Republican told us he's voting for the Democrat.

DEAN: I look at the alternatives to what President Bush is doing right now, and John Kerry suddenly looks a lot more appealing. And I say this as a lifelong Republican.

BUCKLEY: Dean is among Republicans in the so-called hook-and- bullet crowd who have publicly split with President Bush over conservation policy. Some outdoors groups assert, wildlife habitats important to people who hunt and fish are in danger under Bush because they claim the administration says one thing and does another.

PAUL HANSEN, IZAAK WALTON LEAGUE: They say that they want to protect wetlands, yet the only thing we have seen in three years is a measure that actually weakens wetlands protection. They say they want to protect wildlife, as we develop oil and gas in wildlife-rich areas, but the only thing we've seen on the ground are measures that actually exempt the few regulations we have for protecting wildlife in those areas.

BUCKLEY: Unclear is just how many Republican outdoorsmen are angry enough about Bush conservation policy to vote for the Democrat, John Kerry.

(on camera): Those hunters and anglers could make a difference in a close election because many of them are concentrated in key battleground states. BUCKLEY: The importance of those voters illustrated by President Bush himself. Just days after he hosted a meeting with leaders of outdoors groups, the president took up one of their main causes and killed an administration plan to rewrite the Clean Water Act.

Republicans like Dave Donnel, who makes his living outdoors as a commercial outfitter, says Bush will get his vote in part because the president listens to sportsmen.

DAVE DONNEL, COMMERCIAL OUTFITTER: We have got a voice again on how to protect the environment.

BUCKLEY: Both candidates, meanwhile, claim to be outdoorsmen. Voters will have to decide which one they believe is best suited to guarding America's natural treasures.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Aberdeen, South Dakota.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come tonight, words of wisdom from across the country. Wisdom, of course, is a relative term.

We'll take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And so this weekend, summer begins. And at some point this summer, around the Fourth of July here in New York, the Statue of Liberty is scheduled to reopen for the first time since 9/11. And when she does, Lady Liberty will have been made as secure against terrorist attack as the national government and National Park Service can possibly make her.

But she will continue to be vulnerable, as she always has been vulnerable, to attacks by movie directors, including one who made a blockbuster that opened today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): What hasn't happened to Lady Liberty in Hollywood's hands? She's been claimed by rising waters. She's been turned to scrap and recycled for rusty parts, abandoned and strewn about. She's been vaporized and repurposed. Lady Liberty has had every other earthly and otherworldly calamity visited upon her.

And why is she such a magnet for the meanness of the special effects men? Well, look, at it this way. All the world's other great monuments, its tall buildings of bridges and towers, are masterworks of ambitious engineering, to be sure. They show what can be done with nuts and bolts and beams and wire rope. But she shows what can be done with an idea.

So if what you want is to chill an audience as quickly as possible with a single image representing the loss of the finest dream ever dreamed, well, she's really your only choice. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Somewhere around the Fourth of July.

It is likely true that I love doing an annual commencement speech piece on the program because I never actually attended one. I gave one speech once, but that's different. Sitting in an audience, your college degree earned, your life story about to be written is a moment everyone should have. And, so, for those of you like me, who never earned one, or the rest of you, who have simply forgotten, here is a sample of what the class of 2004 heard this spring.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BONO, MUSICIAN: Thank you. My name is Bono and I am a rock star.

(LAUGHTER)

BONO: Don't get me too excited, because I use four-letter words when I get excited.

(LAUGHTER)

BONO: And I'm that guy. My question, I suppose, is, what's the big idea? What's your big idea? What are you willing to spend your moral capital, your intellectual capital, your cash, your sweat?

JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW": Let's talk about the real world for a moment. We had been discussing it earlier. And I wanted to bring this up to you earlier about the real world. And this is I guess as good a time as any. I don't really know how to put this. So I'll be blunt. We broke it.

SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: Perhaps some of you graduates will yourselves go on to spend part or all of your lives in public service. The simple truth is that our nation needs hardworking, innovative, dedicated people to devote their working lives towards operation and improvement.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Use a goodly portion, a very goodly portion of the time and talent you have and the treasure you will surely accumulate to serve others, give back, and you will find that you will receive back in many measures.

GEORGE TENET, CIA DIRECTOR: This is not about conquest or empire, not about taking, but giving, sharing something that we can never take for granted, something you each earned today, something called opportunity.

Your diploma is more than anything an opportunity to learn more, to work more and to accomplish more. It may not all go according to plan. In fact, you should probably plan that it won't.

BUSH: We live in historic times, when the will and character of America are being tested. We're at war with enemies that have many destructive ambitions and one overriding goal. They want to spread their ideology of hatred by forcing America to retreat from the world in weakness and fear. Yet, they're finding that Americans are not the running kind. When this country makes a commitment, we see it through.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We know how difficult our nation's journey has been, how much sacrifice it has entailed. And I want to tell you from firsthand experience, it hasn't been easy.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: We're all afraid of something. The one we must all guard against is the fear of ourselves. Don't let the sensation of fear convince you that you're too weak for courage. Fear is the opportunity for courage, not proof of cowardice. No one is born a coward. We were meant to love. And we were meant to have the courage for it. So be brave. The rest is easy.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And so my fervent hope for you is that you find great leadership and that you go on to be great leaders yourselves, that you are inspired by idealism, by passion and public service and always the truth, that you will be brave, not just physically, but where it really counts, in your hearts, in your minds and in your souls, because there will be many times when you will be tested. And you will have to decide whether to do the right thing, regardless of the risk.

STEWART: When I spoke earlier about the world being broke, I was somewhat being facetious, because every generation has their challenge. And things change rapidly and life gets better in an instant.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Class of 2004.

Ahead on the program, proving there is beauty in everything, a still photographer finds it on the streets of L.A.

From New York, this NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Professional photographers are globetrotters, of course, jetting from one remote and exotic place to another, often a war-torn place to another. And John Humble has done his share of that.

But he keeps his camera to his eye when he's at home as well, and always has, to record the inner life, the pulse, the nooks and crannies of a city a lot of people think they know, but don't really, not the way John Humble does.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN HUMBLE, PHOTOGRAPHER: The I-110 is basically the last freeway that will ever be built in Los Angeles. And I spent some time photographing that freeway, as well as my photographs I have made of the landscape of Los Angeles.

Right now, we're at the intersection of the I-105 and the I-110 freeway. It was really wonderful to watch it happen and to see it as kinetic sculpture on the land, because every time I would come here and look at this being built, it was in another stage of completion. I wanted to show what was happening around to the community around it. And so what happened was that they had to clear the land all the way across for 12.5 miles.

They had to clear it of everything. And if your house was in the way, they bought it from you, or moved it somewhere, but it was not there anymore. However, if you were on the other side of that little line, you had a freeway in your backyard. So I photographed a number of these little houses with freeways essentially being built in their backyards.

If you turn around from here and go in any direction, you will go through miles and miles of just little houses and little businesses. There's one called "Thrift Store." And I shot there very early in the morning. And that is not inhabited at all. And it is and bare. There's nothing there. But there, it says "Thrift Store" about eight times in giant lettering all over it. And it just seemed so stark to me.

And then I did another one of a liquor store at night. And there are gigantic floodlights that lit up his entire parking lot, like it was daylight. I waited for that little man to come into the middle of the picture and stand there.

I kind of think it's crazy to try to photograph a major metropolitan city and to have it devoid of people. I don't focus on the people. The focus is the actual landscape, but I do want it inhabited. So, a lot of my pictures, you will see some small people here or there. And, as I said, I wait for that. Sometimes, I stand and wait a half-hour or an hour or whatever just for the right person to move into the right spot in that photograph.

There are two photographs I did that not only have people in them, but they have gigantic people in them. One of them is Hollywood and it has several people up on billboards. One of is Angelyne, who is one of our local icons. She's famous for being famous. She's famous for being Angelyne and putting her picture up on billboards. And there another one I did with John and Yoko. And they're gigantic up on the billboard. And I just like the idea of these people being bigger than life and up above us all in the landscape.

My whole body of work, all the pictures relate to each other, because they're all about Los Angeles. I photograph what I would call the generic landscape of Los Angeles. It's not the landscape of the Chamber of Commerce. It's not the landscape that people think of when they think of L.A. I hope people will start to look at these photographs and see what the city really looks like.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A different view of L.A. A different view of the news, morning papers, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world, a special Memorial Day holiday edition of morning papers, a tabloid or two thrown in as well.

We'll begin with "The International Herald Tribune." And it's not so much in the headlines, but it was clearly a difficult story for people to figure out, for reporters to figure out today. "Iraqi Shiite Picked as Prime Minister, Longtime Exile, Lead Until Elections." In the "Herald Tribune" version, which is also "The New York Times" version, this is a done deal, slam dunk made by Brahimi and the council went along. But not everyone saw it that way.

"The Washington Times" headlines it, "Iraqi Panel Backs Member For Premier. Bush Aides Allawi Superb Choice." Also, a lot of space on the front page dedicated to tomorrow dedication of the World War II Memorial. "World War II Dedication. Security Tight. Park Police Expecting 200,000 for the Event on the Mall." We'll tell you more about how you can watch that coming up in a little bit. But that's one of those things I wish I was going to.

"Philadelphia Enquirer," a couple stories on the front page. They lead with the choice to be prime minister. "In the Name of War's Casualties. A Ceremony in a Comic Strip Raises Memorial Day Debate. Is it Appropriate to Honor the Fallen by Identifying Them One by One." "Doonesbury" is going to list the names of about 700, more than 700 military people who have died in Iraq.

This picture on the front page will catch your eye. This is everybody getting out of town in Philadelphia, heading for the Jersey shore to spend their Hollywood weekend.

How we doing on time? Thank you very much.

Then let's just go to the tabloids. Don't you think so?

All right, some items from "The Weekly World News" today caught our eye, a medical story. "Expectant Mom is Carrying Unborn Child on Her Back." That's a strange pregnancy, isn't it? "Her uterus shifted around to her shoulders, say doctors. " I've never heard of that before. Speaking of Iraq, and we were, weren't we? "Oops, We Invaded the Wrong Country. Bush Meant Iran, Not Iraq, Reveals a White House Insider."

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Oops, He Did it Again. President Bush Has Fumbled Over His Own Words."

Speaking of Iraq, and we just were, "Troops Find Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction, a 160-Foot-Tall Slingshot." That's why we went to war, according to the magazine. Two more. I hope I have time. "Alien Baby Found On Mars." By the way, "Hillary Tells E.T. Pal" -- you may remember this from that week "It's Not Mine," if you know what I mean.

And we'll end it all with the dynamic duo, OK? He's back. "Batboy Lobbying Hard For Kerry's No. 2 Spot. Batboy's Enthusiasm and Popularity With Younger Voters Would Light a Much Needed Spark in the John Kerry Campaign." I don't know about you, but I agree with that.

"Oh, indeed," which also happens to be the weather word for Chicago tomorrow.

We'll take a break and set you on your way to the Memorial Day weekend in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Sometimes, a forgotten aspect of Memorial Day is the actual remembering. Not this year. As we mentioned on the program last night and at the top tonight, the country has a new memorial on the Mall dedicated to those who fought in the Second World War. It's dedicated tomorrow afternoon.

CNN will bring you the coverage. This is a very cool event, 2:00 Eastern time tomorrow. Former President Bush, among others, will join the coverage. We hope you do, too.

Have a wonderful Hollywood weekend. And good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired May 28, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
I may be wrong about this but it seems to me that Memorial Day this year seems different that this year it is longer on the memorial part and shorter on the holiday weekend than most years.

Part of it is that we are still at war, I think, and that more than 800 Americans have died in Iraq now but there's also this. We are aware that we are running out of time to honor the greatest generation. They are our fathers and our grandfathers. They are old men now.

They were lucky in an odd sort of way. Their war was so clear, the stakes indisputable. When they came home they knew what they had done. They received parades but they didn't need them. They knew.

Since then our wars have gotten more complicated, wars of choice or wars without clear victories or wars with no victory at all. It all seemed simpler then. Nothing seems so simple now. This is their Memorial Day and they will remember their fallen comrades and we will honor them.

It is the current war that begins the whip and the possibility that the head of the new Iraqi state has been found. CNN's Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad starts the whip with a headline.

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the name of Iraq's new interim prime minister has emerged but there is still a lot of questions surrounding Iraq's road to sovereignty.

BROWN: Harris, thank you. We'll get to you at the top tonight.

On to the White House and the state of play between the United States and the United Nations. Dana Bash at the White House tonight, so Dana the headline.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the president tried to be crystal clear today that when Iraqis take control next month they will have full sovereignty. It was an appeal to the U.N. Security Council that he's trying to get their blessing from but it's also a reminder that they may not be as irrelevant as the president perhaps predicted when they didn't back his war in Iraq -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dana, thank you. Finally now the Pentagon and the case of Sergeant Donald Walters who died in the early days of the war in Iraq. Jamie McIntyre with the story and the headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, it now appears one of the real heroes of the ambush of the 507th Maintenance Company is an unsung soldier who the Army now believes was murdered by Iraqis after fighting valiantly -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jamie, we'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight did we learn from Vietnam or is the Pentagon once again playing a numbers game?

A photographer finds beauty in the concrete and the flash of the city of Angels and since it is Friday there's morning papers and morning papers include a tabloid or two, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with another man who might be Iraq's new prime minister or not. The last name to be floated sank or was sunk or torpedoed, we just don't know, nor do we know whose man this new man really is or precisely how he came to be chosen. Sorting out the whys and the how's may take a while. There are many competing theories tonight.

We're left with the who and that's where we begin in Baghdad with CNN's Harris Whitbeck.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

WHITBECK (voice-over): The U.N., the United States and the Iraqi Governing Council finally agreed on the name everyone was waiting to hear that of Iraq's future interim prime minister. He is Iyad Allawi, a current member of the council.

The U.N. special envoy's office said he will work with Allawi to select the remainder of Iraq's new government. Now he says it is time to start phasing in democracy and he recognizes it will be difficult.

IYAD ALLAWI, INTERIM PRIME MINISTER OF IRAQ: To expect Iraq to go into a full blown democracy, as you would have in the United States or Britain or Sweden, then we need a lot of time. It's not a joke. We are here talking about people who have never experienced democracy, who have never faced democracy.

WHITBECK: Some Iraqis seem positive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): As long as he is an Iraqi that represents Iraq in the Iraqi people's opinion he will have my support and the support of all the Iraqis.

WHITBECK: Others had doubts.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): So the governing council had a meeting and chose a prime minister. What is the role of the Iraqi people? They chose him not the Iraqi people.

WHITBECK: With the name of the new interim prime minister now made public at least some of the uncertainty over the political transition has been dissipated. How that new government will be made up is the next question and how that new government will work with the coalition occupying force is the biggest question of all.

Harris Whitbeck, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Not knowing the back story or at least all of it on Dr. Allawi's nomination means not knowing how much control the White House gave to the U.N. on this occasion on this matter. On other matters though the answer seems clear enough.

From the White House tonight CNN's Dana Bash.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): Standing in the Rose Garden with a European ally, the president tried to be crystal clear about the power of the new Iraqi government and the role of the United Nations in creating it.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Complete and full sovereignty to an Iraqi government that will be picked by Mr. Brahimi of the United Nations. He said give me full sovereignty. I said I mean full sovereignty.

BASH: Reassuring words also used in a phone call to Russia's Vladimir Putin from a president working to convince skeptical Security Council members the U.S. will give them what they want full surrender of political control in Iraq.

Returning to the U.N. and relying on its special envoy Lakhdar Brahimi to create an Iraqi government, not where Bush officials thought they would be after issuing pre-war ultimatums like this.

BUSH: Will the United Nations serve the purpose of its founding or will it be irrelevant?

BASH: Then six months later.

BUSH: The United Nations Security Council has not lived up to its responsibilities so we will rise to ours.

BASH: But the post-war problems, officials admit, were worse than expected and the American-led coalition had little success in building the peace. For example, the powerful Ayatollah Ali al- Sistani refused to meet with U.S. Administrator Paul Bremer but agreed to sit down with Mr. Brahimi.

IVO DAALDER, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: We found out that it may not be as easy to use just raw military power to achieve victory and that we need something else. We need legitimacy. BASH: And with the U.S. election just five months away, even members of the president's own party, not fans of the United Nations, concede Mr. Bush is now backed into a corner.

MAX BOOT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Well, I think there are a lot of conservatives who are offended by the very idea of the United States cooperating with the United Nations but I think we have to do what's practical and, at this point, I'm not sure that we have much of a choice.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And a senior administration official admitted this week it was a mistake for any Bush official ever to utter the words limited sovereignty because the official admitted it's made it much harder for the U.S. to convince already skeptical members of the U.N. Security Council that the U.S. means it when they say that they're really trying to turn over political power back to Iraqis -- Aaron.

BROWN: Back to the choice in Iraq today. How has the White House framed this decision by at least at the beginning of the day was presented as the decision of the governing council?

BASH: Well, at the beginning of the day it was really unclear whether or not the White House understood or at least they were publicly going to admit they understood that this was the choice. The word from the White House was that he was one of several choices.

Then by the middle of the afternoon they weren't giving a full on the record blessing to him but they were clearly making it obvious that they thought that he was a good choice.

On the back story, according to administration officials, is that it was a decision, a joint decision by Lakhdar Brahimi, the U.N. envoy, and by officials here and by the Security Council but everybody thought that this was their man but they decided to hold off on announcing it.

But then they sort of were trumped, if you will, by members of the governing council so it took a while for them to let's say get their story straight and decide how they wanted to handle it from there on out -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dana, thank you, Dana Bash tonight.

Richard Roth covers the United Nations for us and Richard is here now. The story does seem to have several chapters written as the day progressed. What's the chapter that you can fill us in on? Is it Brahimi's choice?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT: Well, the U.N. says this is not the way it wanted to have everything unfold but they say that Brahimi, first they said welcomes then respects the decision and now is comfortable with it.

The people I talked to say he wasn't the first choice for Brahimi. He definitely was on the short list but they weren't expecting, as Dana says, the governing council to step in and they are aware there's a perception that perhaps the process was hijacked by the governing council, which is really going to be out of work on June 30th.

BROWN: Let me -- this is the way the "New York Times" is going to report this tomorrow, OK. The decision to pick Allawi was made by Brahimi, the U.N. envoy and presented to the governing council. Is that what you're hearing at the U.N.? That's the way it's being filed out of Baghdad.

ROTH: Didn't hear that, heard more grudging acceptance that he was a leading candidate that perhaps it's still up to the street in Iraq, which we heard a little bit from Harris Whitbeck to whether to accept it or not.

They're not saying, yes, this was our man. They're saying we can work with him. He was definitely one of the last contenders and Brahimi may indeed have wanted him, we don't know, but he wasn't in the room when the vote took place. He was called over but he had been consulting, crunching the names they told us in the final hours. But look what happened to Mr. Shahristani who maybe Brahimi really wanted but his name got out and then he withdrew the day before.

BROWN: And does -- well, first of all, is there a sense across town that this is a done deal now?

ROTH: It seems so. They're already saying this could be fast, over the weekend. Brahimi will meet with Allawi and they're going to come up with the other names and be ready to present it. The big shock was that everybody was saying these words you've heard often from me and everyone else, waiting for Brahimi.

BROWN: Right.

ROTH: It was supposed to be a big show Brahimi either in Baghdad or the U.N. and it didn't happen.

BROWN: Well and another thing for those who looked at the choice the other day and listened carefully over weeks to what Brahimi has been saying it is a little surprising that they have picked a politician, someone from the IGC, someone from the exile community. There's a lot of things that raise questions here.

ROTH: Brahimi sampled hundreds of people so he was never going to back someone if there were real doubts and he seems to support this guy but they have to sell it to the Kurds, the Sunnis and everyone else and I think we're well familiar with various political groups and organizations dropping bad news out on a Friday.

I mean Baghdad, Friday, day of rest, big holiday here and this could be purposeful incompetence to let's just get it out there. Let's disagree on the motives and it won't be like what happened with Shahristani. I mean they're under threat there.

BROWN: Richard, thank you. I suspect you'll have an interesting week over at the U.N. next week.

As we said at the top we've got lots of questions and a fair amount of theories, as Richard just mentioned floating around about Dr. Allawi and the state of play in Baghdad. Does the U.S. like him more than the Iraqi people like him? Will the Sunnis accept him? A couple of question on the table. Is this a power grab by the Iraqi Governing Council?

Noah Feldman helped draft Iraq's new constitution and it's always good to have him on the program. It's nice to see you tonight. What's your take on this?

NOAH FELDMAN, NYU LAW SCHOOL: Well, the bottom line is that this isn't the end of the story. We've got an interim president who is not elected. If we'd had an election we would have had a much more Islamically oriented president and I think what we're going to see now is that most Iraqis are going to sort of wait and see how this new interim prime minister does and they'll make a judgment when elections come and that will be the real test.

BROWN: Is it -- is this a man who is to your knowledge well known across the country or is he simply well known by the power elite in Iraq?

FELDMAN: He's much better known among the political classes, which means mostly the returnees to Iraq than he is by the ordinary person though people will know his name by the end of the day for sure and they'll know the basic facts about him.

They'll know that he is a Shia by denomination. They'll know that he is something of a secularist. They'll know that he has a strong record of opposing the old regime, though he was once a part of it indirectly.

And they'll know most of all that he's close to the U.S. and I think that's the big question mark. Will the ordinary Iraqi think that this guy is just too close to the U.S., picked by the governing council and now put in charge?

BROWN: What is the view generally in Iraq towards the governing council? Are they seen as at all independent? Are they seen as simply a tool of the Americans and the British? What is it?

FELDMAN: Well, they've been caught between a rock and a hard place. On the one hand, they're viewed as irrelevant because they don't actually run the country. They're not really the government. On the other hand, they've been seen as too close to the Americans and to that extent to be blamed for things that the Americans have done wrong.

So, the truth is that the ordinary Iraqi I think doesn't think very positively about the governing council but they have a chance over time to prove themselves individually in government and the more distance there is between the U.S. and the Iraqis the better they'll be able to do that.

BROWN: Would it be a mistake for the White House, for the American government to bless too heartily the choice?

FELDMAN: Well, the most important thing is that we have to get behind this transitional government and provide security for it. The fact that the government will have nominal sovereignty does not mean that we're at the end of the road here. It doesn't mean we can start withdrawing troops.

We need to make absolutely certain that this government is actually supported that it actually can run the show and we need to help them to do that. A lot of people in the U.S. are thinking, well, you know, now that we get closer to transferring sovereignty we're closer to leaving.

That's just not realistically the case, so I think we don't want to put too much distance between ourselves and them. We want to make it really clear that they are the government and therefore we're going to support them.

BROWN: Just quickly are you surprised by the choice?

FELDMAN: I am surprised.

BROWN: Yes.

FELDMAN: If it were not going to be a politician I would have not been surprised but the fact that it is a politician makes you wonder. This person looks like he's really the choice of the governing council to a very great degree.

BROWN: Noah, good to see you. Have a good weekend. Thank you.

FELDMAN: You too.

BROWN: Noah Feldman is in Washington tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, newly uncovered acts of true heroism emerge from one of the earliest battles of the invasion of Iraq, one of the deadliest too.

And a look at the politics of trout fishing. If you want to know what that means you'll have to stay around but you will anyway, won't you, because this is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: You might take a moment to remember them this holiday weekend as well.

Two steps forward, one step back, in the Iraqi city of Najaf. A day after a truce was struck members of Muqtada al-Sadr's militia launched a number of small attacks on U.S. forces. A senior military commander is downplaying the incidents.

We haven't seen or heard from "Newsweek's" Bureau Chief Rod Nordland in Baghdad in a month or so, so we're quite pleased to see him back with us tonight. There are a lot of things on the table. Let's start with what happened today or yesterday your time. Are you surprised by how the governing council seemed to maneuver this that a governing council member will now emerge as prime minister, all of it or none of it?

ROD NORDLAND, "NEWSWEEK" BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF: Yes, I'm astonished. I'm astonished first of all at the choice of Allawi. He's exactly the kind of person that Brahimi let it known he didn't -- let it be known that he did not want closely associated with the Americans, from the exile community, a politician but without any deep political roots inside the country.

And worst of all from the Iraqi point of view he's going to look like somebody that we chose or that our agents, the governing council that we appointed chose and then at this point in time that's not going to help things at all.

BROWN: And the we in that is the Americans not the United Nations, right?

NORDLAND: We, the Americans that's right. You know he was supported by the CIA for a long period of time and he's closely associated with the Americans and that's what most Iraqis are going to see and it's coming at a time when this new government desperately needs credibility with the Iraqi people if it's going to be able to lead them toward elections and to try to help tamp down the level of violence.

You know it's just impossible to exaggerate how much the mood here has turned against America, mainly because of the prisoner abuse scandal and they really needed somebody who looked like truly an independent figure and he's not going to look like that. Whether or not he is or proves to be he certainly is not going to look like that.

BROWN: The prisoner abuse scandal has faded a good deal from the headlines here. I gather from what you just said it has hardly faded in the Iraqi mind at all.

NORDLAND: No, not at all. I think it's settled in there as kind of final proof that we -- I mean people actually say things like, you know, the Americans are as bad as Saddam and then some people even say worse because they didn't, at least didn't see the sort of sexual abuse that was carried out in that prison, the sexual humiliation and so on and that, that really touches a raw cord here and it's going to be very difficult to regain the kind of prestige and support of the Iraqis that we've lost.

It was already even before that scandal polls were showing a majority of Iraqis against the occupation. There haven't been any polls since the scandal but I doubt if it would be very many Iraqis who any longer have a very positive opinion of the Americans.

BROWN: Did the charging of the American soldiers and the plea bargain I guess by Sivits and the sentencing of Sivits did that have any impact on the Iraqis at all? NORDLAND: Yes, I think it had a negative impact. Unfortunately most Iraqis don't understand our legal system. I don't think they appreciated the nuances of needing Sivits' testimony to make cases against the others and they felt that one year jail term, which was maximum that he could get under our laws, was excessively lenient.

Of course they're used to a regime where people spent ten years in jail often as innocent people and people were executed for very small crimes, so to them this seems like something very minor.

I think they also feel and with some justice that the investigations so far have concentrated on a very few fairly low ranking people and have not really gone after what they see as a kind of systematic abuse, not only at Abu Ghraib but at other places.

BROWN: More interesting days ahead. Good to see you, Rod. Thank you very much, Rod Nordland of "Newsweek" magazine.

Also on the subject of Iraq tonight, "we don't do body counts" is what General Tommy Franks of the U.S. Central Command once said and for the most part the American military hasn't talked about numbers, the numbers of enemy soldiers killed during the war or insurgents killed since or the deaths of civilians either. That is the policy except when it isn't.

From the Pentagon, CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): During the Vietnam War, the military learned a tough lesson. Counting the enemy dead said little about which side was winning the war. So it's no surprise a senior officer who served in Vietnam won't discuss the number of enemy killed in Iraq.

GEN. PETER PACE, VICE CHAIRMAN, JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF: I will not get into X number of dead versus Y number dead. That's not what we do. That's not what this is about.

STARR: But reality is different.

BRIG. GEN. MARK KIMMITT, U.S. ARMY: Coalition forces returned fire resulting in three enemy killed. I think on the last number there were five enemy killed. We believe six were killed.

STARR: Officials deny there is a new policy to count the enemy dead.

KIMMITT: The sheer volume of people that we have had to kill to achieve this is not something that I'm...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But earlier this week you were giving us numbers and all of a sudden yesterday we stopped getting numbers.

KIMMITT: You're right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And I wonder is that a change in policy?

KIMMITT: Not at all.

STARR: A slight acknowledgement after some battles when it's possible to count the dead the Pentagon will.

BRIG. GEN. DAVID RODRIGUEZ, DEPUTY DIRECTOR FOR OPERATIONS, J-3 JOINT STAFF: In certain engagements they'll come out and say, you know, they lost approximately this number of people.

STARR (on camera): Behind the scenes some military personnel worry that enemy body counts have crept back into the Pentagon as a means of demonstrating the success against the insurgency in Iraq.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In the long and bloody year since Baghdad fell you may have forgotten the 507th Maintenance Company and the tragedy that befell it. It was the first weekend of the war when a wrong turn led to an ambush that led to deaths and prisoners and heroic stories and there really was a heroic story to be told. It's just taking a long time to get it right.

Here's our Senior Pentagon Correspondent Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): An Army investigation last year confirmed that Private First Class Jessica Lynch never fired a shot in the March 23, 2003 ambush having been seriously injured and likely knocked unconscious when her Humvee hit another vehicle after coming under fire.

But it now seems some of the heroics falsely attributed to Lynch in a front page "Washington Post" account a year ago, things like "fought fiercely and shot several enemy soldiers," "firing until she ran out of ammunition," and "continued firing after she sustained multiple gunshot wounds," may have been the actions of this soldier, Sergeant Donald Walters who was posthumously awarded the Silver Star for valor last month.

Immediately after the "Post" report, which was eventually retracted, Pentagon sources told CNN the Lynch account was likely the result of confusion that while a battlefield report did describe such valiant actions they were by a male soldier who had died.

After pressure from his family in Oregon and the intervention of a member of Congress, the Army found that "Walters did not die in the fight but was severely wounded after repelling the enemy until he was unable to resist any longer." Now the Army has told Walters' family he was murdered by suspected Fedayeen Saddam fighters while he was a POW.

ARLENE WALTERS, MOTHER: I'm very angry. You know, they took him into a room and shot him in the back. That's not according to the -- that's not the way you're supposed to treat prisoners of war according to the Geneva Convention. That is what you are supposed to do with a prisoner of war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not the last I heard. I'm very angry.

MCINTYRE (on camera): The U.S. is investigating the death as a war crime and officials say there are suspects. Meanwhile, Jessica Lynch has issued a statement saying she is personally grateful for the heroic efforts of Sergeant Walters and crediting him with saving the lives of many of his fellow American soldiers.

Jamie McIntyre, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still ahead on this Friday night, we take a look at how the presidential candidates differ on homeland security and where they differ.

From around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If there was a disagreement earlier this week between the Justice Department and Homeland Security over the need for a warning about possible terrorist attacks in the coming months, it seems to have been settled today. John Ashcroft and Tom Ridge issued a joint statement that pretty much echoed what Mr. Ashcroft said a few days ago.

At the time, Mr. Ridge seemed to differ with his colleagues about the quality of the intelligence on which this new warning was based. Today's joint statement calls it credible intelligence from multiple sources, so an agreement on that, though you'd like to have been in the room when they worked it all out.

As for how two other figures agree or differ on the war on terrorism, here's CNN's Kelly Wallace.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Fought hard to put those cops on the streets.

KELLY WALLACE, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Listen to John Kerry and President Bush and you'll hear two candidates saying they will keep America safe.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I can assure you, I will use every asset at my disposal to make sure the American homeland is safe and secure.

KERRY: We need a president who understands that homeland security is not something to talk about. It's something to do something about. WALLACE: Kerry says the president has not done enough or spent enough to prevent another attack. Counterpoint.

BUSH: Since 2001, we have tripled funding for homeland security.

WALLACE: Kerry says he would hire an additional 100,000 firefighters, speed up funding and devote more resources to first- responders and make homeland security a central mission of the National Guard.

KERRY: I think I can do a better job.

WALLACE: The president's plan, continue to beef up the Department of Homeland Security, calling for a 10 percent increase in homeland security funding, and making the Patriot Act, which gives law enforcement more power, permanent.

BUSH: My most solemn duty is to protect America from the enemy.

WALLACE: Homeland security experts say the two plans share more similarities than differences. What sets them apart?

MICHAEL GREENBERGER, PROFESSOR, UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND: Kerry is more focused on the cities and the first-responders. President Bush is more focused on using the states as a method of bureaucracy of getting to the cities.

WALLACE (on camera): But even as John Kerry travels the country touting his homeland security plan, President Bush continues to gets higher marks in the polls when it comes to who would do a better job fighting terrorism.

(voice-over): Point, Kerry says as more people get to know him and his plan, the polls will move in his direction.

KERRY: I have more experience today, as a senator in foreign affairs and in making our country stronger than George Bush does in his four years as president.

WALLACE: Counterpoint.

BUSH: I have spoken clearly to the American people and to the world. And when I say something, I mean it.

WALLACE: Who voters trust more to keep America safe may well be the victor in November.

Kelly Wallace, CNN, Green Bay, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: So there now you have the candidates on the subject of keeping America safe. Now some voters on the candidates, voters of a particular stripe, as in trout and white-tailed deer.

CNN's Frank Buckley tonight pursuing likely voters in their native habitat.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANK BUCKLEY, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Frank Kuhn is an avid fisherman.

FRANK KUHN, REPUBLICAN: There's a big old brown down there waiting for me.

BUCKLEY: Who's just as passionate about his politics. He's a hard-core Republican and a President Bush supporter.

KUHN: He had my vote in 2000 and there's no doubt he is going to get my vote this fall as well.

BUCKLEY: Guys like Kuhn who hunt and fish are part of the Republican base.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good shot.

BUCKLEY: But some political observers say President Bush cannot take them for granted this year. Take Tony Dean, who hosts this widely watched outdoors program on Midwest TV stations.

TONY DEAN, REPUBLICAN: This is the prairie pothole country.

BUCKLEY: When we caught up with him in South Dakota on a freezing cold day in May, the Republican told us he's voting for the Democrat.

DEAN: I look at the alternatives to what President Bush is doing right now, and John Kerry suddenly looks a lot more appealing. And I say this as a lifelong Republican.

BUCKLEY: Dean is among Republicans in the so-called hook-and- bullet crowd who have publicly split with President Bush over conservation policy. Some outdoors groups assert, wildlife habitats important to people who hunt and fish are in danger under Bush because they claim the administration says one thing and does another.

PAUL HANSEN, IZAAK WALTON LEAGUE: They say that they want to protect wetlands, yet the only thing we have seen in three years is a measure that actually weakens wetlands protection. They say they want to protect wildlife, as we develop oil and gas in wildlife-rich areas, but the only thing we've seen on the ground are measures that actually exempt the few regulations we have for protecting wildlife in those areas.

BUCKLEY: Unclear is just how many Republican outdoorsmen are angry enough about Bush conservation policy to vote for the Democrat, John Kerry.

(on camera): Those hunters and anglers could make a difference in a close election because many of them are concentrated in key battleground states. BUCKLEY: The importance of those voters illustrated by President Bush himself. Just days after he hosted a meeting with leaders of outdoors groups, the president took up one of their main causes and killed an administration plan to rewrite the Clean Water Act.

Republicans like Dave Donnel, who makes his living outdoors as a commercial outfitter, says Bush will get his vote in part because the president listens to sportsmen.

DAVE DONNEL, COMMERCIAL OUTFITTER: We have got a voice again on how to protect the environment.

BUCKLEY: Both candidates, meanwhile, claim to be outdoorsmen. Voters will have to decide which one they believe is best suited to guarding America's natural treasures.

Frank Buckley, CNN, Aberdeen, South Dakota.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come tonight, words of wisdom from across the country. Wisdom, of course, is a relative term.

We'll take a break first. From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: And so this weekend, summer begins. And at some point this summer, around the Fourth of July here in New York, the Statue of Liberty is scheduled to reopen for the first time since 9/11. And when she does, Lady Liberty will have been made as secure against terrorist attack as the national government and National Park Service can possibly make her.

But she will continue to be vulnerable, as she always has been vulnerable, to attacks by movie directors, including one who made a blockbuster that opened today.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): What hasn't happened to Lady Liberty in Hollywood's hands? She's been claimed by rising waters. She's been turned to scrap and recycled for rusty parts, abandoned and strewn about. She's been vaporized and repurposed. Lady Liberty has had every other earthly and otherworldly calamity visited upon her.

And why is she such a magnet for the meanness of the special effects men? Well, look, at it this way. All the world's other great monuments, its tall buildings of bridges and towers, are masterworks of ambitious engineering, to be sure. They show what can be done with nuts and bolts and beams and wire rope. But she shows what can be done with an idea.

So if what you want is to chill an audience as quickly as possible with a single image representing the loss of the finest dream ever dreamed, well, she's really your only choice. (END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Somewhere around the Fourth of July.

It is likely true that I love doing an annual commencement speech piece on the program because I never actually attended one. I gave one speech once, but that's different. Sitting in an audience, your college degree earned, your life story about to be written is a moment everyone should have. And, so, for those of you like me, who never earned one, or the rest of you, who have simply forgotten, here is a sample of what the class of 2004 heard this spring.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BONO, MUSICIAN: Thank you. My name is Bono and I am a rock star.

(LAUGHTER)

BONO: Don't get me too excited, because I use four-letter words when I get excited.

(LAUGHTER)

BONO: And I'm that guy. My question, I suppose, is, what's the big idea? What's your big idea? What are you willing to spend your moral capital, your intellectual capital, your cash, your sweat?

JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW": Let's talk about the real world for a moment. We had been discussing it earlier. And I wanted to bring this up to you earlier about the real world. And this is I guess as good a time as any. I don't really know how to put this. So I'll be blunt. We broke it.

SANDRA DAY O'CONNOR, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE: Perhaps some of you graduates will yourselves go on to spend part or all of your lives in public service. The simple truth is that our nation needs hardworking, innovative, dedicated people to devote their working lives towards operation and improvement.

COLIN POWELL, SECRETARY OF STATE: Use a goodly portion, a very goodly portion of the time and talent you have and the treasure you will surely accumulate to serve others, give back, and you will find that you will receive back in many measures.

GEORGE TENET, CIA DIRECTOR: This is not about conquest or empire, not about taking, but giving, sharing something that we can never take for granted, something you each earned today, something called opportunity.

Your diploma is more than anything an opportunity to learn more, to work more and to accomplish more. It may not all go according to plan. In fact, you should probably plan that it won't.

BUSH: We live in historic times, when the will and character of America are being tested. We're at war with enemies that have many destructive ambitions and one overriding goal. They want to spread their ideology of hatred by forcing America to retreat from the world in weakness and fear. Yet, they're finding that Americans are not the running kind. When this country makes a commitment, we see it through.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: We know how difficult our nation's journey has been, how much sacrifice it has entailed. And I want to tell you from firsthand experience, it hasn't been easy.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: We're all afraid of something. The one we must all guard against is the fear of ourselves. Don't let the sensation of fear convince you that you're too weak for courage. Fear is the opportunity for courage, not proof of cowardice. No one is born a coward. We were meant to love. And we were meant to have the courage for it. So be brave. The rest is easy.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: And so my fervent hope for you is that you find great leadership and that you go on to be great leaders yourselves, that you are inspired by idealism, by passion and public service and always the truth, that you will be brave, not just physically, but where it really counts, in your hearts, in your minds and in your souls, because there will be many times when you will be tested. And you will have to decide whether to do the right thing, regardless of the risk.

STEWART: When I spoke earlier about the world being broke, I was somewhat being facetious, because every generation has their challenge. And things change rapidly and life gets better in an instant.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Class of 2004.

Ahead on the program, proving there is beauty in everything, a still photographer finds it on the streets of L.A.

From New York, this NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Professional photographers are globetrotters, of course, jetting from one remote and exotic place to another, often a war-torn place to another. And John Humble has done his share of that.

But he keeps his camera to his eye when he's at home as well, and always has, to record the inner life, the pulse, the nooks and crannies of a city a lot of people think they know, but don't really, not the way John Humble does.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN HUMBLE, PHOTOGRAPHER: The I-110 is basically the last freeway that will ever be built in Los Angeles. And I spent some time photographing that freeway, as well as my photographs I have made of the landscape of Los Angeles.

Right now, we're at the intersection of the I-105 and the I-110 freeway. It was really wonderful to watch it happen and to see it as kinetic sculpture on the land, because every time I would come here and look at this being built, it was in another stage of completion. I wanted to show what was happening around to the community around it. And so what happened was that they had to clear the land all the way across for 12.5 miles.

They had to clear it of everything. And if your house was in the way, they bought it from you, or moved it somewhere, but it was not there anymore. However, if you were on the other side of that little line, you had a freeway in your backyard. So I photographed a number of these little houses with freeways essentially being built in their backyards.

If you turn around from here and go in any direction, you will go through miles and miles of just little houses and little businesses. There's one called "Thrift Store." And I shot there very early in the morning. And that is not inhabited at all. And it is and bare. There's nothing there. But there, it says "Thrift Store" about eight times in giant lettering all over it. And it just seemed so stark to me.

And then I did another one of a liquor store at night. And there are gigantic floodlights that lit up his entire parking lot, like it was daylight. I waited for that little man to come into the middle of the picture and stand there.

I kind of think it's crazy to try to photograph a major metropolitan city and to have it devoid of people. I don't focus on the people. The focus is the actual landscape, but I do want it inhabited. So, a lot of my pictures, you will see some small people here or there. And, as I said, I wait for that. Sometimes, I stand and wait a half-hour or an hour or whatever just for the right person to move into the right spot in that photograph.

There are two photographs I did that not only have people in them, but they have gigantic people in them. One of them is Hollywood and it has several people up on billboards. One of is Angelyne, who is one of our local icons. She's famous for being famous. She's famous for being Angelyne and putting her picture up on billboards. And there another one I did with John and Yoko. And they're gigantic up on the billboard. And I just like the idea of these people being bigger than life and up above us all in the landscape.

My whole body of work, all the pictures relate to each other, because they're all about Los Angeles. I photograph what I would call the generic landscape of Los Angeles. It's not the landscape of the Chamber of Commerce. It's not the landscape that people think of when they think of L.A. I hope people will start to look at these photographs and see what the city really looks like.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A different view of L.A. A different view of the news, morning papers, after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world, a special Memorial Day holiday edition of morning papers, a tabloid or two thrown in as well.

We'll begin with "The International Herald Tribune." And it's not so much in the headlines, but it was clearly a difficult story for people to figure out, for reporters to figure out today. "Iraqi Shiite Picked as Prime Minister, Longtime Exile, Lead Until Elections." In the "Herald Tribune" version, which is also "The New York Times" version, this is a done deal, slam dunk made by Brahimi and the council went along. But not everyone saw it that way.

"The Washington Times" headlines it, "Iraqi Panel Backs Member For Premier. Bush Aides Allawi Superb Choice." Also, a lot of space on the front page dedicated to tomorrow dedication of the World War II Memorial. "World War II Dedication. Security Tight. Park Police Expecting 200,000 for the Event on the Mall." We'll tell you more about how you can watch that coming up in a little bit. But that's one of those things I wish I was going to.

"Philadelphia Enquirer," a couple stories on the front page. They lead with the choice to be prime minister. "In the Name of War's Casualties. A Ceremony in a Comic Strip Raises Memorial Day Debate. Is it Appropriate to Honor the Fallen by Identifying Them One by One." "Doonesbury" is going to list the names of about 700, more than 700 military people who have died in Iraq.

This picture on the front page will catch your eye. This is everybody getting out of town in Philadelphia, heading for the Jersey shore to spend their Hollywood weekend.

How we doing on time? Thank you very much.

Then let's just go to the tabloids. Don't you think so?

All right, some items from "The Weekly World News" today caught our eye, a medical story. "Expectant Mom is Carrying Unborn Child on Her Back." That's a strange pregnancy, isn't it? "Her uterus shifted around to her shoulders, say doctors. " I've never heard of that before. Speaking of Iraq, and we were, weren't we? "Oops, We Invaded the Wrong Country. Bush Meant Iran, Not Iraq, Reveals a White House Insider."

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: Oops, He Did it Again. President Bush Has Fumbled Over His Own Words."

Speaking of Iraq, and we just were, "Troops Find Saddam's Weapons of Mass Destruction, a 160-Foot-Tall Slingshot." That's why we went to war, according to the magazine. Two more. I hope I have time. "Alien Baby Found On Mars." By the way, "Hillary Tells E.T. Pal" -- you may remember this from that week "It's Not Mine," if you know what I mean.

And we'll end it all with the dynamic duo, OK? He's back. "Batboy Lobbying Hard For Kerry's No. 2 Spot. Batboy's Enthusiasm and Popularity With Younger Voters Would Light a Much Needed Spark in the John Kerry Campaign." I don't know about you, but I agree with that.

"Oh, indeed," which also happens to be the weather word for Chicago tomorrow.

We'll take a break and set you on your way to the Memorial Day weekend in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Sometimes, a forgotten aspect of Memorial Day is the actual remembering. Not this year. As we mentioned on the program last night and at the top tonight, the country has a new memorial on the Mall dedicated to those who fought in the Second World War. It's dedicated tomorrow afternoon.

CNN will bring you the coverage. This is a very cool event, 2:00 Eastern time tomorrow. Former President Bush, among others, will join the coverage. We hope you do, too.

Have a wonderful Hollywood weekend. And good night for all of us.

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