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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Scare at Capitol before casket of President Reagan arrived; President Bush prepares for visit to Capitol Rotunda; Reagan political appeal underestimated; More top runners are named in the BALCO doping scandal

Aired June 09, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again from Washington, D.C. tonight.
For a country born rejecting its royal roots, the pageantry we saw in the capitol today does not come easily or often. Knowing that somehow made the beginning of the state funeral for Ronald Reagan that much more touching, more powerful.

The steps we watched late today had their roots in Lincoln's time. The planning has been going down for years, the timing down to the minute. It was a military event done with military precision but that precision couldn't hide the soul of the day itself.

The words were, as you would imagine, warm but the words will be forgotten. The images of the day, the face of Mrs. Reagan, the sounds of horseshoes on otherwise silent city street, the flag-draped coffin of the late president, those images will linger for years to come.

The whip begins in the capitol, CNN's Joe Johns is there tonight, so Joe start us off with a headline.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, thousands and thousands of people are expected to file past the casket of Ronald Reagan in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda between now and Friday morning. They come from far and near. They are young and old. Of course, one thing a lot of people don't know this all got off to a pretty rough start -- Aaron.

BROWN: Joe, thank you. We'll get the details coming up.

The president will pay his respects tomorrow. Today he's in Georgia discussing plans for Iraq with leaders of the industrialized world and a new Iraqi president. Our Senior White House Correspondent has the duty tonight, John King, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, some Middle East leaders don't like President Bush's call for them to enact democratic and other political reforms but Iraq's new president made his international summit debut today. Not only did he promise the president democracy in Iraq, he promised the Americans would not have died in vain -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

In Iraq, a power play is unfolding, how serious is hard now to tell, CNN's Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad tonight. Harris, a headline.

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, more than just bickering among some of Iraq's new interim leaders. Some say the future of the interim government could be at stake. Others say Iraqi politicians are simply finetuning the art of political posturing.

BROWN: Harris, thank you.

And finally, President Reagan, the underdog. CNN's Jeff Greenfield has been looking into that aspect of his political life, so Jeff, a headline.

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Aaron, it was one of President Reagan's best political assets, his smile no, his rhetoric no, his opponents' persistent habit of underestimating him -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jeff, thank you. We'll get to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program from Washington tonight, more top runners are named in the BALCO doping scandal, more danger to the U.S. Olympic team.

State funerals are rare in American life, very rare. Tonight we look at the tradition.

And, in keeping with our own historical traditions wherever we go we'll have morning papers, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight in the city that 24 years ago Ronald Reagan made his own, even though he always said he was just passing through. As president he left a legacy. As president and a personality he made his mark. Today we're reminded of how many years have gone by and how little has changed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It was late on a hot Washington afternoon when the plane finally landed and this ceremony, long in the planning, began. Thousands stood watching. The choreography was exquisite.

There were the symbols, the riderless horse, boots backwards in the stirrups as the procession made its way to the capitol.

There was music. Amidst the signs of pageantry more than a century old there was also the modern until finally the casket arrived on the steps of the rotunda and ever so gently past Mrs. Reagan to its place of honor.

REV. DANIEL P. COUGHLIN, CHAPLAIN OF THE HOUSE: Ronald Wilson Reagan had many roles to play in life husband, father, governor but the most notable role on the world stage was that of the 40th President of the United States of America. With his style and grace he made it seem easy. With his compassion and sense of timing he brought strength of character to the nation and a kindled hope in a darkened world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Those were the words of the Reverend Daniel Coughlin who is the chaplain of the House. He was followed to the microphone by three former colleagues of the late president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED STEVENS (R), PRESIDENT PRO TEMPORE: President Abraham Lincoln was the first president to lie in state under this capitol dome. In the coming days, thousands will come to these hallowed halls to say goodbye to another son of Illinois who, like Lincoln, appealed to our best hopes not our worst fears.

DENNIS HASTERT, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: President Reagan dared to dream that America had a special mission. He believed in the essential goodness of the American people and that we had a special duty to promote peace and freedom for the rest of the world.

Against the advice of the timid he sent a chilling message to authoritarian governments everywhere that the civilized world would not rest until freedom reigned in every corner of the globe.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Seen now at a distance his strengths as a man and as a leader are only more impressive. It's the nature of the city of Washington that men and women arrive, leave their mark, and go their way.

Some figures who seemed quite large and important in their day are sometimes forgotten or remembered with ambivalence, yet nearly a generation after the often impatient debates of the Reagan years what lingers from that time is almost all good and this is because of the calm and kind man who stood at the center of events.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The speeches and the sermons were the exceptions to an occasion that for the most part spoke volumes without many words at all. There are very few moments when a gathering of people can be so completely filling of a space with presence and with stillness. Watching the proceedings tonight reminds us that and that the power of such moments and what they hold for all of us.

In the next 24 hours or so, thousands and thousands of people will have the opportunity to walk into their capitol, in to the rotunda, to look up at the fresco of the first president, contemplate the casket burying the 40th and, in their own way, add to that stillness.

And so again tonight we turn to CNN's Joe Johns, Joe, good evening.

JOHNS: Good evening, Aaron.

U.S. Capitol Police are expecting up to 200,000 people to file past the casket of President Reagan in the United States Capitol Rotunda between now and Friday morning, around 7:30 Friday morning. That's up to 5,000 people an hour.

People are going to come here, of course, from all over the country, young and old, some in fact so young they may not even remember who President Reagan was and what he stood for except for what they read in the history books or what their parents tell them but still authorities expect them to come.

Now to the issue of the evacuation, at the very beginning of all of this before the casket even arrived here on Capitol Hill there was, in fact, a scare. We have been through three evacuations now on Capitol Hill since September 11th but by some standards this was perhaps the scariest.

It happened very, very quickly. People who were inside the Capitol were suddenly told get out. Get out now. Run toward the exits. This is not a drill. And so people did run through the building, out the doors, down the street and suddenly it was over.

Apparently what had happened, a plane in the air bringing a dignitary here to go to the service for President Reagan had apparently lost contact with the tower. They reestablished contact and it was done.

The things we're expecting over the next several days, of course, George Herbert Walker Bush is expected to show up here at the capitol to pay his respects, as well as former Soviet Premiere Mikhail Gorbachev.

Then, as you know on Friday the service at the United States National Cathedral, after that time, of course, the body will go back to California -- Aaron.

BROWN: Wasn't it -- you were around most of the day, most of the late afternoon, was it as quiet as it seemed to us watching it?

JOHNS: It was extraordinarily quiet, extraordinarily still. I was at a position really right in front of the west front capitol. The caisson came right past me, complete silence. You did hear out on the streets and out on the television feed some applause from time to time.

I heard a man shout out some kind word to Nancy Reagan but mostly it was silence, really extraordinary especially for myself, a person who watched the last state funeral of a president on television when I was basically a kid, really a remarkable scene and very patriotic as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: It was quite moving. Again, we talked about this before, our presidents in the country are the political leaders and we have disagreements sometimes with that but they're also the head of state, the ceremonial head of state and we revere that and we see the coming together of those moments in a moment like today. Joe, thank you for your work, Joe John up on Capitol Hill tonight.

Meantime, the nation's business does go on. The president is hosting the G8 Summit in Georgia. That's why he was not in Washington today, G8 plus one country in particular, Iraq, for more on that our Senior White House Correspondent tonight John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): President to president, one with a sense of disbelief.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I really never thought I'd be sitting next to an Iraqi president of a free country a year and a half ago.

KING: It was interim Iraqi President Ghazi al-Yawar's international summit debut. He thanked Americans for their sacrifice, promised it will not be in vain.

GHAZI AL-YAWAR, INTERIM IRAQI PRESIDENT: We are determined to have a free democratic federal Iraq, a country that is a source of stability to the Middle East.

KING: How to secure the new Iraq is a major challenge and fresh from a diplomatic victory at the United Nations, President Bush suggested NATO might now take a more robust role.

BUSH: We will work with our NATO friends to at least continue the role that now exists and hopefully expand it somewhat.

KING: French President Jacques Chirac quickly took issue and it appeared the newfound spirit of cooperation on Iraq might last less than a day.

JACQUES CHIRAC, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): I do not believe that it is NATO's purpose to intervene in Iraq.

KING: Senior U.S. officials rushed to avoid a new feud. All Mr. Bush meant, they said, was perhaps a greater NATO role in training Iraqi security forces, not major new troop commitments.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: While it is true that there may be some small numbers of additional foreign forces for this or that specialized role, the real key is for the Iraqis themselves to be capable of taking on these tasks.

KING: In office just a week, the new Iraqi leader took a lead role as G8 leaders called for democratic reforms across the Middle East. The summit's Mid East initiative urges new dialogue between Israel and the Palestinians but it also says "regional conflicts must not be an obstacle for reforms." That statement reflects the White House view that some Arab nations refuse to even consider reform until the United States pushes Israel to make peace.

RICE: Without reform in the Middle East you're going to continue to have the ideologies of hatred coming out of that region that fueled September 11th.

KING: Missing from the picture were U.S. allies, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, proof the initiative remains a tough sell. By all accounts the summit spirit was one of cooperation. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And the summit wraps up here tomorrow. The president's final event, a news conference here in Savannah, then back to Washington. Aaron, he will head directly to the capitol to pay respects to President Reagan, spend some private time, Mr. Bush and First Lady Laura Bush will meet with Nancy Reagan at Blair House tomorrow night.

Friday morning the president delivers a eulogy at the National Cathedral. Aides say he has been working on it between meetings here in Georgia at the G8 Summit. They expect it to run about ten to 12 minutes.

BROWN: On balance do they feel their work there was successful?

KING: They believe they've taken some steps. The Middle East initiative is quite controversial. It will take some time to see whether the Middle Eastern nations, the Arab nations move and the White House knows they won't move until it proves it's going to try to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute.

They were very encouraged by the first public summit international appearance tonight by the interim Iraqi president. They believe he said exactly the right thing for the American people who might not have supported this war.

BROWN: John, thank you. There are few people who can win a battle with a helicopter but I think you just did. Thank you very much, John King our Senior White House Correspondent.

Ahead on the program tonight, the United Nations may have agreed on the future of Iraq but there are still enormous issues to be decided by the Iraqis themselves. We'll look at one coming up.

These people are here tonight to say goodbye to a man that the experts said would never be governor, much less president. Jeff Greenfield on how Ronald Reagan consistently defied the conventional wisdom.

From New York a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Even in the pomp and ceremony of a state funeral the most telling moments are always intensely personal, remember JFK's? So it was today when Nancy Reagan once again stood to say goodbye to her husband and Michael Reagan bid farewell to his father, a picture worth a second look.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: From the start of his political career almost to the summit of it, Ronald Reagan faced a cottage industry of doubters, not over his ideas, right or wrong, for that would imply taking him seriously, which an awful lot of academics and journalists and professional politicians did not do certainly not to start, again CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD (voice-over): In 1966 when Ronald Reagan beat a moderate Republican to win a primary race for governor, the campaign of Democratic Governor Pat Brown was ecstatic. How could their guy, who'd beaten Richard Nixon's comeback bid four years earlier, possibly lose to an amateur, an actor at that? Reagan won the governorship of California by a million votes.

In 1980 when Reagan won the GOP presidential nomination, the campaign of President Jimmy Carter was relieved. This 69-year-old right-winger, they thought, would be a far easier foe than George H. W. Bush or Senator Howard Baker. Reagan won the presidency by nearly ten million votes and carried 44 states.

When Reagan came to Washington, the insiders thought he was doomed. Look what happened to the last outsider Jimmy Carter. Clearly, he'd be overmatched. Reagan won reelection by one of the biggest margins in history and carried 49 states.

When Reagan went ahead with plans to put intermediate range missiles in Western Europe and triggered huge protests from the peace movement the Soviets were sure the Western Alliance would be fractured by Reagan's bellicose aggressive moves.

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Tear down this wall.

GREENFIELD: A few years later, it was the Soviet empire that collapsed, followed by the Soviet Union itself.

How to explain this constant underestimation? Well, first there was the actor thing. How could a man who once played opposite a chimpanzee be taken seriously? Beyond that, Reagan did not come from the usual political roots. He wasn't a lawyer, never worked in a legislature and didn't talk like a conventional political figure.

When he said there are simple answers to problems, not easy ones but simple ones, he triggered skepticism if not outright contempt from some listeners. And sometimes, to be blunt, Reagan could say things that were just plain wrong.

If he'd read something and remembered it, one aide told me years ago, you could tell him a dozen times it wasn't true but he'd still repeat it. He sometimes confused war movies with the real thing, sometimes could not explain what was in his own tax plans and this encouraged his opponents to overemphasize his weakness on specifics and ignore his powerful political appeal.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD: When Reagan, of course, got into politics a story began making the rounds. One studio head was supposedly saying to another, "what do you think about Ronald Reagan for governor?" And the other one replied, "no, no, Jimmy Stewart for governor, Ronald Reagan for his best friend." I have a hunch that Reagan laughed about that joke, Aaron, all the way to the White House.

BROWN: I think he did. Stay here for a minute. We'll bring one more voice into the conversation.

Haynes Johnson is both a historian with a reporter's eye and the other way around. For years he covered Washington, wrote about it first at "The Washington Star" and then "The Post." He's the author of more books than we can mention but we'll mention on of them, "Sleepwalking Through History: America in the Reagan Years." It is very nice to see you, sir.

HAYNES JOHNSON, JOURNALIST: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Why is a day like today or a week like this important to us, these state events?

JOHNSON: We're a country that doesn't have much memory for history, strangely enough as old as we are and so forth and this is one that ties it together, the simplicity, the dignity, the beauty of it, watching those scenes up and down the avenue and it reminds you of the past when they played walking up the steps the Battle Hymn of the Republic, it reminds you of Lincoln (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

And I have my own memories, I'm sure we all do, of Jack Kennedy and the riderless horse. Now then you had the drums and the funeral procession but there is that binding us together and I think it's very important.

BROWN: As you watched it today and you sat up here for five hours or so was there a moment in particular that jumped at you?

GREENFIELD: When I saw the riderless horse.

BROWN: Was that because of today or because of the first time you saw it?

GREENFIELD: Because, as Haynes said, it absolutely brought back the Kennedy funeral. The Kennedy funeral, you know, it was in black and white. It was a complete shock. It was like 9/11 in that this thing couldn't happen.

In that sense, these two events are very different but that is such a iconic memory I think anybody who was around for the Kennedy funeral saw that riderless horse and it was flashing back.

BROWN: Is it appropriate, do you think, I mean one of the criticisms of the coverage this week I think by and large has been that it has been a canonization as much as anything else, is that a terrible thing in a week like this?

JOHNSON: No, I don't think so. I mean it's understandable, number one, and Reagan is the oldest president. He had a terrible last ten years, tragic for someone like that. He had a record of controversy and success both. I would like to see a little more setting the ledger but that will be done. History will do that.

BROWN: That's where I was going, I guess, is that in this moment all the rough edges tend to get softened.

JOHNSON: Yes.

BROWN: We've lost a head of state, set aside the politics, a head of state. Histories reviews will be more mixed.

JOHNSON: Oh, absolutely and what we're seeing though is almost perfect for Reagan. He's a ceremonial monarch in a way, in a funny way. He presided over a country, made us feel good, all the cliches and it's true.

And the country is going through, when we saw these scenes of people running out that the plane had flown over the capitol all of a sudden a reminder, hey, we're still in an age of anxiety. We're worried about tragedies.

And then it subsides and then you go back to this wonderful stately procession with all the mystic cords of memory to use an American phrase, playing and plugging at your memories and your heartstrings. I think it's great.

BROWN: Jeff, you've written a number of pieces this week where you have dealt with some of the controversies.

GREENFIELD: Yes.

BROWN: Have you approached those, how have you approached those? In your mind somewhere have you gone there's risk here?

GREENFIELD: No, because what I've also tried to fold into that is that there's been a shift about Reagan. One, a lot of people who were critical of him in the '80s now see that his policy toward the Soviet Union was a lot shrewder than we thought it might be.

The second is this booklet came out a couple of years ago, "Reagan, a Life in Letters," showed that at least through the '70s Reagan was capable of dealing with complex, difficult issues when he wrote his own newspaper columns and radio speeches.

There has been a reassessment going but Haynes is exactly right that there's going to be, as history moves on, a judgment. This is a few days after this man has died and, you know, it's a matter of decency actually.

BROWN: Go ahead.

JOHNSON: I was at the famous party, Pamela Harriman (ph) and Clark Clifford described him as an amiable dunce. It was in "The Wall Street Journal" the next day, cited me as being there. I was very embarrassed because I was, you know, I was at this party and that was the picture that many people had.

Reagan was not an amiable dunce. He was inattentive. He didn't pay attention to a lot of things but he knew what he wanted to do and he was able, he was consequential. He made a difference. Now you can argue, and I would argue, about the policies both at home and abroad but there's no question this was a big figure in the last 50 years of American life.

BROWN: Just before we started you looked at me and you said he's a great story. He was a great story.

JOHNSON: Yes.

BROWN: What did you mean by that?

JOHNSON: I meant that, well you're from the Midwest. Here's the American story is the self made man. You can grow up poor and he grows up and really in bad circumstances, an alcoholic father, poor, poverty. He makes his way west.

What does he do? He goes to the golden west and he invents himself and he rises up. He melds personality, celebrity, Hollywood and he's not just an old grade B actor. He turns out to be someone that has some thoughts and he wants to do something and by God, he made it all the way to the top.

We can argue about whether the legacy he left is one of greatness or not but I don't think you can argue that's not a great American story. No wonder he could talk about -- he's a myth taker. He's a Mark Twain figure. He's a Mississippi figure. I think, I really do and --

GREENFIELD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)

JOHNSON: And it's marvelous because -- and you watched him, you know, and Lippman (ph) had that great phrase, "the picture's in our heads," what we remember. We have pictures in our heads of Reagan now that will always be there. There will be other historical analyses of what he did. That will be different.

GREENFIELD: I was watching some clips of his old State of the Union speeches and messages to Congress. You know they weren't just pretty words. He was dealing with some very interesting, complex, important issues, not the least of which was war and peace and relations with the other nuclear super power.

And I have to tell you that in retrospect there is a certain stature that a lot of his critics denied him when he was president but I think that part, the consequentiality is going to be, I think, a matter of consensus, whether for good of it. I think this is the most consequential political president since Franklin Roosevelt and that's something that those people I talked about in my piece would never have bet.

JOHNSON: I don't disagree with that at all, Jeff, and isn't it part of the marvelous story? He starts out this idealistic liberal New Deal. His great hero is Franklin Roosevelt.

He votes four times as an ardent New Dealer and he becomes the exponent of the new conservative era and he has changed his policies and his presidency and his persona, changed the way we thought about politics. Now, I don't say it was all good but I do think you're going to have to deal with him as a very, again, consequential major figure.

BROWN: Are you at all uncomfortable with what seems to be a movement to name everything that's not nailed down after Reagan sometime before sunset Sunday?

JOHNSON: Well, I came in tonight and I saw they had flashing in the sky Mount Rushmore and Reagan is going to go up there. They're talking about putting a monument on the Mall, like the Lincoln Memorial, and $20 bill. I think we need to hold off on that.

GREENFIELD: There is a law, you know, that says a president has to be 25 years dead before you can name anything after him in Washington. And that's

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And I think that President Reagan signed that law, I believe.

GREENFIELD: Yes. And it's a very wise notion.

BROWN: When Senator Jackson died, Scoop Jackson died, I was out in Washington state. And he was much liked. I don't know that he was necessarily loved, but much liked. And within a day or so, they had renamed the airport.

And people ultimately went ballistic and said, no, actually, we liked the name of the airport. But there does seem to be right now -- they're talking about the Pentagon and dollar bills and every bridge and everything thing else.

JOHNSON: And that's what's happening. That's part of this week, too. It is also a political aspect. You want to put the stamp. Roosevelt is on the dime.

BROWN: Yes.

JOHNSON: You know, get rid of Alexander Hamilton on the $10 bill. I think Alexander Hamilton earned his place.

BROWN: Mrs. Reagan was quite good on this, I think, when they first talked about replacing Roosevelt, and, she said no, I don't think so.

JOHNSON: And she's been great, too, about the Alzheimer's and the rest.

BROWN: Nice to see you. Thank you for coming in.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And, Jeff Greenfield.

GREENFIELD: OK. Good to see you.

BROWN: Still ahead tonight from Washington -- I do know we're in Washington -- a few bumps in the road to a united Iraq. We'll tell you more about that. We'll go to Baghdad coming up.

And, later, Tom Foreman looks at what makes these public ceremonies touch the national soul.

It's underlined. From Washington, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've heard over and over again about the divisions in Iraq, divisions between the Sunnis and the Shiites and the Kurds. Keeping peace among them is seen as a major challenge in the new Iraq.

Today, the Kurds, non-Arab Sunni Muslims who live in the northern part of the country, became a major complication, not without warning and, in truth, not without reason. The reason stems from the resolution approved by the U.N. Security Council yesterday authorizing the handover of power on the 30th of June. It is what was left out of the resolution that's caused the problem.

For that, we go to CNN's Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was portrayed as a victory for Iraq, this week's United Nations vote to restore Iraqi sovereignty, but that's not the way the Kurds of Iraq see it.

They make up nearly 20 percent of the Iraqi population. They've got 75,000 dedicated fighters. They fought side by side with U.S. forces who parachuted into Kurdistan near the start of the war. And now they have the power to derail any national Iraqi government, a power they are threatening to use.

The two top Kurdish leaders, Massoud Barzani and Jalal Talabani, have written a joint letter to President Bush warning that Kurds must have virtual veto power over the new constitution. If not, say Kurdish leaders, they would -- quote -- "have no choice but to refrain from participating in the central government and its institutions."

The Kurdish leaders asked that their autonomy be written into the Security Council resolution on Iraq, but it wasn't. Shiite members of Iraq's new interim government were dead-set against it. Shiites, the majority in Iraq that had been left out of power during the Saddam Hussein years, are now poised to assume it. And they're concerned about too much power being in the hands of the Kurds.

But, on Wednesday, the interim Cabinet tried to assuage the Kurds, issuing a statement saying it would respect Kurdish demands. "The interim Iraqi government announces its full commitment to this law in the interim and transitional phase," it read. The highest ranking Kurd in the current government said he still believes a fully representative government will work.

ROWSCH SHAWAY, IRAQI DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If it's going to be viable, it is necessary to take in consideration all the ethnic groups and the religious component of the Iraqi population.

WHITBECK: In the postwar Iraq, ethnic and religious groups that had been shut out of power for decades want to make sure that will not happen again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITBECK: And that is one of the biggest threats to political stability here. The Kurds aren't the only ones who have been left out of power. And now everybody seems to be trying to ensure their seat at the table -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, what's complicating here is that, in many ways, the most powerful figure in Iraq, the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, who is not at any table and doesn't necessarily talk to a lot of people, has said this transitional constitution is not going to happen. And he, in some respects, can make that true.

WHITBECK: Well, you're absolutely right, Aaron, because he is hugely influential in Iraq.

Shortly after he issued a statement a couple of days ago criticizing the goings-on at the U.N. Security Council, a lot of his followers were out in the streets. Within a matter of hours, he had been able to garner the public support of about 5,000 of his followers, who were out on the streets, very, very vocal in expressing their support for him.

And the Shiites, of course, they have been shut out of power for decades. And now that they have a chance at taking the power in Iraq, they're going to do all they can to ensure that. So there really is a power play here. And it is really, really a difficult power play, because both sides here seem to be able to garner a lot of popular support on the streets. The Kurds also said to me yesterday that, if Sistani could put 5,000 men on the streets, they could put 75,000 men on the streets -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani can put a lot of people on the streets any time he wants to.

Harris, thank you -- Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad.

This is not a story that is going away.

A quick look around the world at some of the other things that made news today.

In Rome, an emotional homecoming for three Italians held hostage for nearly two months in Iraq. They were kidnapped in April while working for a U.S. security firm. A fourth Italian hostage was killed after Italy refused to withdraw its troops from the region.

In Iraq, suspected insurgents attacked the main oil pipeline between Kirkuk in the north and Turkey. The attackers used a homemade explosive device, which set off a fire, the fourth such attack in three days. And, in Germany, an explosion tore through a home in Cologne, injuring 16 people, four of them seriously. Officials say they believe the blast was caused by a bomb. The neighborhood where the explosion occurred is predominantly Turkish.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, more world-class athletes accused of using drugs, but not accused of failing a drug test.

And we'll have tomorrow's news in morning papers. We can do that because we're in Washington and this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Today, it became clear that the Olympic doping scandal is growing. Four more track and field stars have been put on notice they might not be allowed to compete in the Summer Games in Athens coming up, among them, star sprinter Tim Montgomery. All four received letters from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, notifying them of potential drug violations.

Reporting for us tonight, CNN's Josie Burke.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSIE BURKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two years ago, Tim Montgomery set the world record in the 100 meters. This summer, he hopes to set another record at his third Olympics for the U.S. team. Now a potential drug violation stands between Montgomery and Athens. The United States Anti-Doping Agency, known as USADA, has told Montgomery and three other U.S. sprinters it might ban them.

LESTER MUNSON, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": This lets these athletes know that their careers are in jeopardy. It lets them know that they may not be in the Athens Olympics.

BURKE: But USADA's case comes with a catch. The agency might rely solely on evidence that does not include a positive drug test. USADA's drug testing protocol gives it the right to ban athletes -- quote -- "when USADA has other reason to believe that a potential doping violation has occurred." USADA recently received the documents that led to indictments of four other people on federal drug charges in connection with the Bay area laboratory cooperative steroid scandal in February.

MUNSON: Passing a drug test is no longer enough. We've never seen anything like this in the history of American Olympic sports.

BURKE: His lawyer contends that Montgomery has never failed a drug test. In a statement, she said the evidence is inconclusive and internally inconsistent.

Olympian Marion Jones, Montgomery's girlfriend, has been questioned by USADA and indicated she would sue if banned. But it might not be that easy. All Olympic athletes are required to sign an agreement they will go through arbitration to settle eligibility disputes. MUNSON: It's not only a signed letter. It is also the Amateur Sports Act, which governs Olympics. It's a federal law. And it will definitely hold up in court.

BURKE: And, in arbitration, a positive drug test is not required, nor is the kind of proof that's required in court. Published reports indicate USADA will use e-mails, canceled checks and calendars with codewords for banned substances to link athletes to doping.

The Olympics are two months away. The Olympic torch is on its way to Athens. A countdown of a different kind is beginning with the U.S. Olympic team. Who will be eligible to compete for the U.S. track team when the Games begin?

Josie Burke, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we're watching thousands of Americans file past Ronald Reagan at the Rotunda of the Capitol. This will go on for the next day and a half.

After the break, we'll take a look at these national ceremonies of loss and remembrance.

And later, we'll see how the nation reacted to today's events, or at least how the headline writers did, in morning papers.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: People in and out and standing in line around the Capitol, which is lighted up tonight all quite pretty and quite solemn, as the capital city of the country remembers Ronald Reagan.

The traditions unfolding this week in the capital, though old and venerable, also represent a turning point. When George Washington died, it took weeks for the news to spread. The country mourned in stages as the country learned of the loss. By the time Abraham Lincoln died, telegraphs and trains allowed to country to mourn the loss together. His was the first national funeral.

Today, news travels in an instant. The world has long been a global village. There have been other state funerals since Lincoln, of course, but his still shapes what we saw today.

Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No other state funeral has produced more unforgettable images than that of John Kennedy, the rolling caisson, his son saluting, the grief of a nation. Yet it was Jackie Kennedy, in her grief, who defined how a modern state funeral, how Ronald Reagan's funeral, will be conducted.

DONALD RITCHIE, SENATE HISTORIAN: She sent historians to the Library of Congress in the middle of the night to research the Lincoln funeral proceedings. And so, after that, a very large report was prepared. We have followed that report pretty much since 1965, when that was done.

FOREMAN: Much of the ceremony Mrs. Kennedy revived can be traced to Lincoln. Lincoln's funeral procession was the first to feature a riderless horse, like the one that followed President Reagan.

The catafalque, or decorative stand, on which President Reagan's casket now rests, was built for Lincoln, the first president to lie in state in the Capitol Rotunda. It has been used for all nine presidents who have lain in state there since, although though four nonpresidents have also been given that honor. All were military men, an unknown soldier from World War I, another representing World War II and the Korean conflict, General John Pershing and General Douglas MacArthur.

Of all Americans, only about half are old enough to have seen a president lie in state at the Capitol. The last one was Lyndon Johnson in 1973. Richard Nixon died 10 years ago, but his funeral was in California.

So, as he did in life, Ronald Reagan is showing America something new and at once old, the way a nation comes together to mourn, show respect and say goodbye.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world, mostly around the country, though, because that is the story of the day.

Just a bunch. We'll start with "The Dallas Morning News." "Parade of Honor, Pageantry Marks Reagan's Last Return to the Capitol. Rotunda Ceremony Recalls Graceful and Gallant Man." That was a line in Vice President Cheney's speech today. I liked that line quite a lot. I thought it was a nice way to do it.

Cincinnati -- no, "Philadelphia Inquirer." "A Solemn Journey" is the way they headline it. That's the picture they use of the casket in the caisson, and Mrs. Reagan as well, a little blurry in our printing.

"The Hartford Courant." "A Solemn Farewell" is the headline on the Reagan story. But the big local story, the big statewide story in Connecticut is the -- what may turn out to be the impeachment of the governor. So the headline there focuses on timing of favors. "Rowland Stays Clear of the Capitol." That's John Rowland, the governor.

Only a couple of seconds left. "The Des Moines Register" headlines, "Washington Grieves."

I want to get to one more because we talked about this earlier. "Chattanooga Times Free Press." "Reagan's Final Trip to D.C." But down here, "State Lawmakers Favor Jackson Over Reagan on the $20 Bill." That just seems a little early to be doing all that.

"The Chicago" -- weather tomorrow in Chicago, I'm sure they have weather. Yes, they do. "Rip-roaring" is the weather in Chicago tomorrow.

We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(CHIMES)

BROWN: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ronald Reagan lived 93 years. Tomorrow on the program, we'll look at how the world changed in that amount of time. That's tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT from Washington.

Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 9, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again from Washington, D.C. tonight.
For a country born rejecting its royal roots, the pageantry we saw in the capitol today does not come easily or often. Knowing that somehow made the beginning of the state funeral for Ronald Reagan that much more touching, more powerful.

The steps we watched late today had their roots in Lincoln's time. The planning has been going down for years, the timing down to the minute. It was a military event done with military precision but that precision couldn't hide the soul of the day itself.

The words were, as you would imagine, warm but the words will be forgotten. The images of the day, the face of Mrs. Reagan, the sounds of horseshoes on otherwise silent city street, the flag-draped coffin of the late president, those images will linger for years to come.

The whip begins in the capitol, CNN's Joe Johns is there tonight, so Joe start us off with a headline.

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, thousands and thousands of people are expected to file past the casket of Ronald Reagan in the U.S. Capitol Rotunda between now and Friday morning. They come from far and near. They are young and old. Of course, one thing a lot of people don't know this all got off to a pretty rough start -- Aaron.

BROWN: Joe, thank you. We'll get the details coming up.

The president will pay his respects tomorrow. Today he's in Georgia discussing plans for Iraq with leaders of the industrialized world and a new Iraqi president. Our Senior White House Correspondent has the duty tonight, John King, John a headline.

JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, some Middle East leaders don't like President Bush's call for them to enact democratic and other political reforms but Iraq's new president made his international summit debut today. Not only did he promise the president democracy in Iraq, he promised the Americans would not have died in vain -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you.

In Iraq, a power play is unfolding, how serious is hard now to tell, CNN's Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad tonight. Harris, a headline.

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, more than just bickering among some of Iraq's new interim leaders. Some say the future of the interim government could be at stake. Others say Iraqi politicians are simply finetuning the art of political posturing.

BROWN: Harris, thank you.

And finally, President Reagan, the underdog. CNN's Jeff Greenfield has been looking into that aspect of his political life, so Jeff, a headline.

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST: Aaron, it was one of President Reagan's best political assets, his smile no, his rhetoric no, his opponents' persistent habit of underestimating him -- Aaron.

BROWN: Jeff, thank you. We'll get to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program from Washington tonight, more top runners are named in the BALCO doping scandal, more danger to the U.S. Olympic team.

State funerals are rare in American life, very rare. Tonight we look at the tradition.

And, in keeping with our own historical traditions wherever we go we'll have morning papers, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight in the city that 24 years ago Ronald Reagan made his own, even though he always said he was just passing through. As president he left a legacy. As president and a personality he made his mark. Today we're reminded of how many years have gone by and how little has changed.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It was late on a hot Washington afternoon when the plane finally landed and this ceremony, long in the planning, began. Thousands stood watching. The choreography was exquisite.

There were the symbols, the riderless horse, boots backwards in the stirrups as the procession made its way to the capitol.

There was music. Amidst the signs of pageantry more than a century old there was also the modern until finally the casket arrived on the steps of the rotunda and ever so gently past Mrs. Reagan to its place of honor.

REV. DANIEL P. COUGHLIN, CHAPLAIN OF THE HOUSE: Ronald Wilson Reagan had many roles to play in life husband, father, governor but the most notable role on the world stage was that of the 40th President of the United States of America. With his style and grace he made it seem easy. With his compassion and sense of timing he brought strength of character to the nation and a kindled hope in a darkened world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Those were the words of the Reverend Daniel Coughlin who is the chaplain of the House. He was followed to the microphone by three former colleagues of the late president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED STEVENS (R), PRESIDENT PRO TEMPORE: President Abraham Lincoln was the first president to lie in state under this capitol dome. In the coming days, thousands will come to these hallowed halls to say goodbye to another son of Illinois who, like Lincoln, appealed to our best hopes not our worst fears.

DENNIS HASTERT, SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: President Reagan dared to dream that America had a special mission. He believed in the essential goodness of the American people and that we had a special duty to promote peace and freedom for the rest of the world.

Against the advice of the timid he sent a chilling message to authoritarian governments everywhere that the civilized world would not rest until freedom reigned in every corner of the globe.

DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Seen now at a distance his strengths as a man and as a leader are only more impressive. It's the nature of the city of Washington that men and women arrive, leave their mark, and go their way.

Some figures who seemed quite large and important in their day are sometimes forgotten or remembered with ambivalence, yet nearly a generation after the often impatient debates of the Reagan years what lingers from that time is almost all good and this is because of the calm and kind man who stood at the center of events.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The speeches and the sermons were the exceptions to an occasion that for the most part spoke volumes without many words at all. There are very few moments when a gathering of people can be so completely filling of a space with presence and with stillness. Watching the proceedings tonight reminds us that and that the power of such moments and what they hold for all of us.

In the next 24 hours or so, thousands and thousands of people will have the opportunity to walk into their capitol, in to the rotunda, to look up at the fresco of the first president, contemplate the casket burying the 40th and, in their own way, add to that stillness.

And so again tonight we turn to CNN's Joe Johns, Joe, good evening.

JOHNS: Good evening, Aaron.

U.S. Capitol Police are expecting up to 200,000 people to file past the casket of President Reagan in the United States Capitol Rotunda between now and Friday morning, around 7:30 Friday morning. That's up to 5,000 people an hour.

People are going to come here, of course, from all over the country, young and old, some in fact so young they may not even remember who President Reagan was and what he stood for except for what they read in the history books or what their parents tell them but still authorities expect them to come.

Now to the issue of the evacuation, at the very beginning of all of this before the casket even arrived here on Capitol Hill there was, in fact, a scare. We have been through three evacuations now on Capitol Hill since September 11th but by some standards this was perhaps the scariest.

It happened very, very quickly. People who were inside the Capitol were suddenly told get out. Get out now. Run toward the exits. This is not a drill. And so people did run through the building, out the doors, down the street and suddenly it was over.

Apparently what had happened, a plane in the air bringing a dignitary here to go to the service for President Reagan had apparently lost contact with the tower. They reestablished contact and it was done.

The things we're expecting over the next several days, of course, George Herbert Walker Bush is expected to show up here at the capitol to pay his respects, as well as former Soviet Premiere Mikhail Gorbachev.

Then, as you know on Friday the service at the United States National Cathedral, after that time, of course, the body will go back to California -- Aaron.

BROWN: Wasn't it -- you were around most of the day, most of the late afternoon, was it as quiet as it seemed to us watching it?

JOHNS: It was extraordinarily quiet, extraordinarily still. I was at a position really right in front of the west front capitol. The caisson came right past me, complete silence. You did hear out on the streets and out on the television feed some applause from time to time.

I heard a man shout out some kind word to Nancy Reagan but mostly it was silence, really extraordinary especially for myself, a person who watched the last state funeral of a president on television when I was basically a kid, really a remarkable scene and very patriotic as well -- Aaron.

BROWN: It was quite moving. Again, we talked about this before, our presidents in the country are the political leaders and we have disagreements sometimes with that but they're also the head of state, the ceremonial head of state and we revere that and we see the coming together of those moments in a moment like today. Joe, thank you for your work, Joe John up on Capitol Hill tonight.

Meantime, the nation's business does go on. The president is hosting the G8 Summit in Georgia. That's why he was not in Washington today, G8 plus one country in particular, Iraq, for more on that our Senior White House Correspondent tonight John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KING (voice-over): President to president, one with a sense of disbelief.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I really never thought I'd be sitting next to an Iraqi president of a free country a year and a half ago.

KING: It was interim Iraqi President Ghazi al-Yawar's international summit debut. He thanked Americans for their sacrifice, promised it will not be in vain.

GHAZI AL-YAWAR, INTERIM IRAQI PRESIDENT: We are determined to have a free democratic federal Iraq, a country that is a source of stability to the Middle East.

KING: How to secure the new Iraq is a major challenge and fresh from a diplomatic victory at the United Nations, President Bush suggested NATO might now take a more robust role.

BUSH: We will work with our NATO friends to at least continue the role that now exists and hopefully expand it somewhat.

KING: French President Jacques Chirac quickly took issue and it appeared the newfound spirit of cooperation on Iraq might last less than a day.

JACQUES CHIRAC, FRENCH PRESIDENT (through translator): I do not believe that it is NATO's purpose to intervene in Iraq.

KING: Senior U.S. officials rushed to avoid a new feud. All Mr. Bush meant, they said, was perhaps a greater NATO role in training Iraqi security forces, not major new troop commitments.

CONDOLEEZZA RICE, NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: While it is true that there may be some small numbers of additional foreign forces for this or that specialized role, the real key is for the Iraqis themselves to be capable of taking on these tasks.

KING: In office just a week, the new Iraqi leader took a lead role as G8 leaders called for democratic reforms across the Middle East. The summit's Mid East initiative urges new dialogue between Israel and the Palestinians but it also says "regional conflicts must not be an obstacle for reforms." That statement reflects the White House view that some Arab nations refuse to even consider reform until the United States pushes Israel to make peace.

RICE: Without reform in the Middle East you're going to continue to have the ideologies of hatred coming out of that region that fueled September 11th.

KING: Missing from the picture were U.S. allies, Egypt and Saudi Arabia, proof the initiative remains a tough sell. By all accounts the summit spirit was one of cooperation. (END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And the summit wraps up here tomorrow. The president's final event, a news conference here in Savannah, then back to Washington. Aaron, he will head directly to the capitol to pay respects to President Reagan, spend some private time, Mr. Bush and First Lady Laura Bush will meet with Nancy Reagan at Blair House tomorrow night.

Friday morning the president delivers a eulogy at the National Cathedral. Aides say he has been working on it between meetings here in Georgia at the G8 Summit. They expect it to run about ten to 12 minutes.

BROWN: On balance do they feel their work there was successful?

KING: They believe they've taken some steps. The Middle East initiative is quite controversial. It will take some time to see whether the Middle Eastern nations, the Arab nations move and the White House knows they won't move until it proves it's going to try to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian dispute.

They were very encouraged by the first public summit international appearance tonight by the interim Iraqi president. They believe he said exactly the right thing for the American people who might not have supported this war.

BROWN: John, thank you. There are few people who can win a battle with a helicopter but I think you just did. Thank you very much, John King our Senior White House Correspondent.

Ahead on the program tonight, the United Nations may have agreed on the future of Iraq but there are still enormous issues to be decided by the Iraqis themselves. We'll look at one coming up.

These people are here tonight to say goodbye to a man that the experts said would never be governor, much less president. Jeff Greenfield on how Ronald Reagan consistently defied the conventional wisdom.

From New York a special edition of NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Even in the pomp and ceremony of a state funeral the most telling moments are always intensely personal, remember JFK's? So it was today when Nancy Reagan once again stood to say goodbye to her husband and Michael Reagan bid farewell to his father, a picture worth a second look.

(VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: From the start of his political career almost to the summit of it, Ronald Reagan faced a cottage industry of doubters, not over his ideas, right or wrong, for that would imply taking him seriously, which an awful lot of academics and journalists and professional politicians did not do certainly not to start, again CNN's Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD (voice-over): In 1966 when Ronald Reagan beat a moderate Republican to win a primary race for governor, the campaign of Democratic Governor Pat Brown was ecstatic. How could their guy, who'd beaten Richard Nixon's comeback bid four years earlier, possibly lose to an amateur, an actor at that? Reagan won the governorship of California by a million votes.

In 1980 when Reagan won the GOP presidential nomination, the campaign of President Jimmy Carter was relieved. This 69-year-old right-winger, they thought, would be a far easier foe than George H. W. Bush or Senator Howard Baker. Reagan won the presidency by nearly ten million votes and carried 44 states.

When Reagan came to Washington, the insiders thought he was doomed. Look what happened to the last outsider Jimmy Carter. Clearly, he'd be overmatched. Reagan won reelection by one of the biggest margins in history and carried 49 states.

When Reagan went ahead with plans to put intermediate range missiles in Western Europe and triggered huge protests from the peace movement the Soviets were sure the Western Alliance would be fractured by Reagan's bellicose aggressive moves.

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Tear down this wall.

GREENFIELD: A few years later, it was the Soviet empire that collapsed, followed by the Soviet Union itself.

How to explain this constant underestimation? Well, first there was the actor thing. How could a man who once played opposite a chimpanzee be taken seriously? Beyond that, Reagan did not come from the usual political roots. He wasn't a lawyer, never worked in a legislature and didn't talk like a conventional political figure.

When he said there are simple answers to problems, not easy ones but simple ones, he triggered skepticism if not outright contempt from some listeners. And sometimes, to be blunt, Reagan could say things that were just plain wrong.

If he'd read something and remembered it, one aide told me years ago, you could tell him a dozen times it wasn't true but he'd still repeat it. He sometimes confused war movies with the real thing, sometimes could not explain what was in his own tax plans and this encouraged his opponents to overemphasize his weakness on specifics and ignore his powerful political appeal.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GREENFIELD: When Reagan, of course, got into politics a story began making the rounds. One studio head was supposedly saying to another, "what do you think about Ronald Reagan for governor?" And the other one replied, "no, no, Jimmy Stewart for governor, Ronald Reagan for his best friend." I have a hunch that Reagan laughed about that joke, Aaron, all the way to the White House.

BROWN: I think he did. Stay here for a minute. We'll bring one more voice into the conversation.

Haynes Johnson is both a historian with a reporter's eye and the other way around. For years he covered Washington, wrote about it first at "The Washington Star" and then "The Post." He's the author of more books than we can mention but we'll mention on of them, "Sleepwalking Through History: America in the Reagan Years." It is very nice to see you, sir.

HAYNES JOHNSON, JOURNALIST: Thank you, Aaron.

BROWN: Why is a day like today or a week like this important to us, these state events?

JOHNSON: We're a country that doesn't have much memory for history, strangely enough as old as we are and so forth and this is one that ties it together, the simplicity, the dignity, the beauty of it, watching those scenes up and down the avenue and it reminds you of the past when they played walking up the steps the Battle Hymn of the Republic, it reminds you of Lincoln (UNINTELLIGIBLE).

And I have my own memories, I'm sure we all do, of Jack Kennedy and the riderless horse. Now then you had the drums and the funeral procession but there is that binding us together and I think it's very important.

BROWN: As you watched it today and you sat up here for five hours or so was there a moment in particular that jumped at you?

GREENFIELD: When I saw the riderless horse.

BROWN: Was that because of today or because of the first time you saw it?

GREENFIELD: Because, as Haynes said, it absolutely brought back the Kennedy funeral. The Kennedy funeral, you know, it was in black and white. It was a complete shock. It was like 9/11 in that this thing couldn't happen.

In that sense, these two events are very different but that is such a iconic memory I think anybody who was around for the Kennedy funeral saw that riderless horse and it was flashing back.

BROWN: Is it appropriate, do you think, I mean one of the criticisms of the coverage this week I think by and large has been that it has been a canonization as much as anything else, is that a terrible thing in a week like this?

JOHNSON: No, I don't think so. I mean it's understandable, number one, and Reagan is the oldest president. He had a terrible last ten years, tragic for someone like that. He had a record of controversy and success both. I would like to see a little more setting the ledger but that will be done. History will do that.

BROWN: That's where I was going, I guess, is that in this moment all the rough edges tend to get softened.

JOHNSON: Yes.

BROWN: We've lost a head of state, set aside the politics, a head of state. Histories reviews will be more mixed.

JOHNSON: Oh, absolutely and what we're seeing though is almost perfect for Reagan. He's a ceremonial monarch in a way, in a funny way. He presided over a country, made us feel good, all the cliches and it's true.

And the country is going through, when we saw these scenes of people running out that the plane had flown over the capitol all of a sudden a reminder, hey, we're still in an age of anxiety. We're worried about tragedies.

And then it subsides and then you go back to this wonderful stately procession with all the mystic cords of memory to use an American phrase, playing and plugging at your memories and your heartstrings. I think it's great.

BROWN: Jeff, you've written a number of pieces this week where you have dealt with some of the controversies.

GREENFIELD: Yes.

BROWN: Have you approached those, how have you approached those? In your mind somewhere have you gone there's risk here?

GREENFIELD: No, because what I've also tried to fold into that is that there's been a shift about Reagan. One, a lot of people who were critical of him in the '80s now see that his policy toward the Soviet Union was a lot shrewder than we thought it might be.

The second is this booklet came out a couple of years ago, "Reagan, a Life in Letters," showed that at least through the '70s Reagan was capable of dealing with complex, difficult issues when he wrote his own newspaper columns and radio speeches.

There has been a reassessment going but Haynes is exactly right that there's going to be, as history moves on, a judgment. This is a few days after this man has died and, you know, it's a matter of decency actually.

BROWN: Go ahead.

JOHNSON: I was at the famous party, Pamela Harriman (ph) and Clark Clifford described him as an amiable dunce. It was in "The Wall Street Journal" the next day, cited me as being there. I was very embarrassed because I was, you know, I was at this party and that was the picture that many people had.

Reagan was not an amiable dunce. He was inattentive. He didn't pay attention to a lot of things but he knew what he wanted to do and he was able, he was consequential. He made a difference. Now you can argue, and I would argue, about the policies both at home and abroad but there's no question this was a big figure in the last 50 years of American life.

BROWN: Just before we started you looked at me and you said he's a great story. He was a great story.

JOHNSON: Yes.

BROWN: What did you mean by that?

JOHNSON: I meant that, well you're from the Midwest. Here's the American story is the self made man. You can grow up poor and he grows up and really in bad circumstances, an alcoholic father, poor, poverty. He makes his way west.

What does he do? He goes to the golden west and he invents himself and he rises up. He melds personality, celebrity, Hollywood and he's not just an old grade B actor. He turns out to be someone that has some thoughts and he wants to do something and by God, he made it all the way to the top.

We can argue about whether the legacy he left is one of greatness or not but I don't think you can argue that's not a great American story. No wonder he could talk about -- he's a myth taker. He's a Mark Twain figure. He's a Mississippi figure. I think, I really do and --

GREENFIELD: (UNINTELLIGIBLE.)

JOHNSON: And it's marvelous because -- and you watched him, you know, and Lippman (ph) had that great phrase, "the picture's in our heads," what we remember. We have pictures in our heads of Reagan now that will always be there. There will be other historical analyses of what he did. That will be different.

GREENFIELD: I was watching some clips of his old State of the Union speeches and messages to Congress. You know they weren't just pretty words. He was dealing with some very interesting, complex, important issues, not the least of which was war and peace and relations with the other nuclear super power.

And I have to tell you that in retrospect there is a certain stature that a lot of his critics denied him when he was president but I think that part, the consequentiality is going to be, I think, a matter of consensus, whether for good of it. I think this is the most consequential political president since Franklin Roosevelt and that's something that those people I talked about in my piece would never have bet.

JOHNSON: I don't disagree with that at all, Jeff, and isn't it part of the marvelous story? He starts out this idealistic liberal New Deal. His great hero is Franklin Roosevelt.

He votes four times as an ardent New Dealer and he becomes the exponent of the new conservative era and he has changed his policies and his presidency and his persona, changed the way we thought about politics. Now, I don't say it was all good but I do think you're going to have to deal with him as a very, again, consequential major figure.

BROWN: Are you at all uncomfortable with what seems to be a movement to name everything that's not nailed down after Reagan sometime before sunset Sunday?

JOHNSON: Well, I came in tonight and I saw they had flashing in the sky Mount Rushmore and Reagan is going to go up there. They're talking about putting a monument on the Mall, like the Lincoln Memorial, and $20 bill. I think we need to hold off on that.

GREENFIELD: There is a law, you know, that says a president has to be 25 years dead before you can name anything after him in Washington. And that's

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And I think that President Reagan signed that law, I believe.

GREENFIELD: Yes. And it's a very wise notion.

BROWN: When Senator Jackson died, Scoop Jackson died, I was out in Washington state. And he was much liked. I don't know that he was necessarily loved, but much liked. And within a day or so, they had renamed the airport.

And people ultimately went ballistic and said, no, actually, we liked the name of the airport. But there does seem to be right now -- they're talking about the Pentagon and dollar bills and every bridge and everything thing else.

JOHNSON: And that's what's happening. That's part of this week, too. It is also a political aspect. You want to put the stamp. Roosevelt is on the dime.

BROWN: Yes.

JOHNSON: You know, get rid of Alexander Hamilton on the $10 bill. I think Alexander Hamilton earned his place.

BROWN: Mrs. Reagan was quite good on this, I think, when they first talked about replacing Roosevelt, and, she said no, I don't think so.

JOHNSON: And she's been great, too, about the Alzheimer's and the rest.

BROWN: Nice to see you. Thank you for coming in.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: And, Jeff Greenfield.

GREENFIELD: OK. Good to see you.

BROWN: Still ahead tonight from Washington -- I do know we're in Washington -- a few bumps in the road to a united Iraq. We'll tell you more about that. We'll go to Baghdad coming up.

And, later, Tom Foreman looks at what makes these public ceremonies touch the national soul.

It's underlined. From Washington, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've heard over and over again about the divisions in Iraq, divisions between the Sunnis and the Shiites and the Kurds. Keeping peace among them is seen as a major challenge in the new Iraq.

Today, the Kurds, non-Arab Sunni Muslims who live in the northern part of the country, became a major complication, not without warning and, in truth, not without reason. The reason stems from the resolution approved by the U.N. Security Council yesterday authorizing the handover of power on the 30th of June. It is what was left out of the resolution that's caused the problem.

For that, we go to CNN's Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS WHITBECK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was portrayed as a victory for Iraq, this week's United Nations vote to restore Iraqi sovereignty, but that's not the way the Kurds of Iraq see it.

They make up nearly 20 percent of the Iraqi population. They've got 75,000 dedicated fighters. They fought side by side with U.S. forces who parachuted into Kurdistan near the start of the war. And now they have the power to derail any national Iraqi government, a power they are threatening to use.

The two top Kurdish leaders, Massoud Barzani and Jalal Talabani, have written a joint letter to President Bush warning that Kurds must have virtual veto power over the new constitution. If not, say Kurdish leaders, they would -- quote -- "have no choice but to refrain from participating in the central government and its institutions."

The Kurdish leaders asked that their autonomy be written into the Security Council resolution on Iraq, but it wasn't. Shiite members of Iraq's new interim government were dead-set against it. Shiites, the majority in Iraq that had been left out of power during the Saddam Hussein years, are now poised to assume it. And they're concerned about too much power being in the hands of the Kurds.

But, on Wednesday, the interim Cabinet tried to assuage the Kurds, issuing a statement saying it would respect Kurdish demands. "The interim Iraqi government announces its full commitment to this law in the interim and transitional phase," it read. The highest ranking Kurd in the current government said he still believes a fully representative government will work.

ROWSCH SHAWAY, IRAQI DEPUTY PRESIDENT: If it's going to be viable, it is necessary to take in consideration all the ethnic groups and the religious component of the Iraqi population.

WHITBECK: In the postwar Iraq, ethnic and religious groups that had been shut out of power for decades want to make sure that will not happen again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WHITBECK: And that is one of the biggest threats to political stability here. The Kurds aren't the only ones who have been left out of power. And now everybody seems to be trying to ensure their seat at the table -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, what's complicating here is that, in many ways, the most powerful figure in Iraq, the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani, who is not at any table and doesn't necessarily talk to a lot of people, has said this transitional constitution is not going to happen. And he, in some respects, can make that true.

WHITBECK: Well, you're absolutely right, Aaron, because he is hugely influential in Iraq.

Shortly after he issued a statement a couple of days ago criticizing the goings-on at the U.N. Security Council, a lot of his followers were out in the streets. Within a matter of hours, he had been able to garner the public support of about 5,000 of his followers, who were out on the streets, very, very vocal in expressing their support for him.

And the Shiites, of course, they have been shut out of power for decades. And now that they have a chance at taking the power in Iraq, they're going to do all they can to ensure that. So there really is a power play here. And it is really, really a difficult power play, because both sides here seem to be able to garner a lot of popular support on the streets. The Kurds also said to me yesterday that, if Sistani could put 5,000 men on the streets, they could put 75,000 men on the streets -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani can put a lot of people on the streets any time he wants to.

Harris, thank you -- Harris Whitbeck in Baghdad.

This is not a story that is going away.

A quick look around the world at some of the other things that made news today.

In Rome, an emotional homecoming for three Italians held hostage for nearly two months in Iraq. They were kidnapped in April while working for a U.S. security firm. A fourth Italian hostage was killed after Italy refused to withdraw its troops from the region.

In Iraq, suspected insurgents attacked the main oil pipeline between Kirkuk in the north and Turkey. The attackers used a homemade explosive device, which set off a fire, the fourth such attack in three days. And, in Germany, an explosion tore through a home in Cologne, injuring 16 people, four of them seriously. Officials say they believe the blast was caused by a bomb. The neighborhood where the explosion occurred is predominantly Turkish.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT tonight, more world-class athletes accused of using drugs, but not accused of failing a drug test.

And we'll have tomorrow's news in morning papers. We can do that because we're in Washington and this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Today, it became clear that the Olympic doping scandal is growing. Four more track and field stars have been put on notice they might not be allowed to compete in the Summer Games in Athens coming up, among them, star sprinter Tim Montgomery. All four received letters from the U.S. Anti-Doping Agency, notifying them of potential drug violations.

Reporting for us tonight, CNN's Josie Burke.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOSIE BURKE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Two years ago, Tim Montgomery set the world record in the 100 meters. This summer, he hopes to set another record at his third Olympics for the U.S. team. Now a potential drug violation stands between Montgomery and Athens. The United States Anti-Doping Agency, known as USADA, has told Montgomery and three other U.S. sprinters it might ban them.

LESTER MUNSON, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED": This lets these athletes know that their careers are in jeopardy. It lets them know that they may not be in the Athens Olympics.

BURKE: But USADA's case comes with a catch. The agency might rely solely on evidence that does not include a positive drug test. USADA's drug testing protocol gives it the right to ban athletes -- quote -- "when USADA has other reason to believe that a potential doping violation has occurred." USADA recently received the documents that led to indictments of four other people on federal drug charges in connection with the Bay area laboratory cooperative steroid scandal in February.

MUNSON: Passing a drug test is no longer enough. We've never seen anything like this in the history of American Olympic sports.

BURKE: His lawyer contends that Montgomery has never failed a drug test. In a statement, she said the evidence is inconclusive and internally inconsistent.

Olympian Marion Jones, Montgomery's girlfriend, has been questioned by USADA and indicated she would sue if banned. But it might not be that easy. All Olympic athletes are required to sign an agreement they will go through arbitration to settle eligibility disputes. MUNSON: It's not only a signed letter. It is also the Amateur Sports Act, which governs Olympics. It's a federal law. And it will definitely hold up in court.

BURKE: And, in arbitration, a positive drug test is not required, nor is the kind of proof that's required in court. Published reports indicate USADA will use e-mails, canceled checks and calendars with codewords for banned substances to link athletes to doping.

The Olympics are two months away. The Olympic torch is on its way to Athens. A countdown of a different kind is beginning with the U.S. Olympic team. Who will be eligible to compete for the U.S. track team when the Games begin?

Josie Burke, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, we're watching thousands of Americans file past Ronald Reagan at the Rotunda of the Capitol. This will go on for the next day and a half.

After the break, we'll take a look at these national ceremonies of loss and remembrance.

And later, we'll see how the nation reacted to today's events, or at least how the headline writers did, in morning papers.

This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: People in and out and standing in line around the Capitol, which is lighted up tonight all quite pretty and quite solemn, as the capital city of the country remembers Ronald Reagan.

The traditions unfolding this week in the capital, though old and venerable, also represent a turning point. When George Washington died, it took weeks for the news to spread. The country mourned in stages as the country learned of the loss. By the time Abraham Lincoln died, telegraphs and trains allowed to country to mourn the loss together. His was the first national funeral.

Today, news travels in an instant. The world has long been a global village. There have been other state funerals since Lincoln, of course, but his still shapes what we saw today.

Here's CNN's Tom Foreman.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): No other state funeral has produced more unforgettable images than that of John Kennedy, the rolling caisson, his son saluting, the grief of a nation. Yet it was Jackie Kennedy, in her grief, who defined how a modern state funeral, how Ronald Reagan's funeral, will be conducted.

DONALD RITCHIE, SENATE HISTORIAN: She sent historians to the Library of Congress in the middle of the night to research the Lincoln funeral proceedings. And so, after that, a very large report was prepared. We have followed that report pretty much since 1965, when that was done.

FOREMAN: Much of the ceremony Mrs. Kennedy revived can be traced to Lincoln. Lincoln's funeral procession was the first to feature a riderless horse, like the one that followed President Reagan.

The catafalque, or decorative stand, on which President Reagan's casket now rests, was built for Lincoln, the first president to lie in state in the Capitol Rotunda. It has been used for all nine presidents who have lain in state there since, although though four nonpresidents have also been given that honor. All were military men, an unknown soldier from World War I, another representing World War II and the Korean conflict, General John Pershing and General Douglas MacArthur.

Of all Americans, only about half are old enough to have seen a president lie in state at the Capitol. The last one was Lyndon Johnson in 1973. Richard Nixon died 10 years ago, but his funeral was in California.

So, as he did in life, Ronald Reagan is showing America something new and at once old, the way a nation comes together to mourn, show respect and say goodbye.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around the world, mostly around the country, though, because that is the story of the day.

Just a bunch. We'll start with "The Dallas Morning News." "Parade of Honor, Pageantry Marks Reagan's Last Return to the Capitol. Rotunda Ceremony Recalls Graceful and Gallant Man." That was a line in Vice President Cheney's speech today. I liked that line quite a lot. I thought it was a nice way to do it.

Cincinnati -- no, "Philadelphia Inquirer." "A Solemn Journey" is the way they headline it. That's the picture they use of the casket in the caisson, and Mrs. Reagan as well, a little blurry in our printing.

"The Hartford Courant." "A Solemn Farewell" is the headline on the Reagan story. But the big local story, the big statewide story in Connecticut is the -- what may turn out to be the impeachment of the governor. So the headline there focuses on timing of favors. "Rowland Stays Clear of the Capitol." That's John Rowland, the governor.

Only a couple of seconds left. "The Des Moines Register" headlines, "Washington Grieves."

I want to get to one more because we talked about this earlier. "Chattanooga Times Free Press." "Reagan's Final Trip to D.C." But down here, "State Lawmakers Favor Jackson Over Reagan on the $20 Bill." That just seems a little early to be doing all that.

"The Chicago" -- weather tomorrow in Chicago, I'm sure they have weather. Yes, they do. "Rip-roaring" is the weather in Chicago tomorrow.

We'll wrap it up in a moment.

(CHIMES)

BROWN: Thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ronald Reagan lived 93 years. Tomorrow on the program, we'll look at how the world changed in that amount of time. That's tomorrow on NEWSNIGHT from Washington.

Until then, good night for all of us.

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