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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Saudi Government Offers Deal To al Qaeda; Anonymous CIA Official Writes Book, Criticizes Administration's Handling Of War On Terror;

Aired June 23, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
A short page tonight for the program is very full. Our lead tonight deals in a fundamental way with the nature of terrorism itself and the conflicting views on why it exists.

The president says often that the enemy here hates us because we love freedom and, while that is simple and easy to understand, we suspect even he knows it is far more complicated than that. There are reasons they hate us, and hate us they do, and it is almost certainly true we have spent too little time trying to understand that.

Our lead tonight deals with that fundamental question and it is also where we begin the whip. The whip begins with a CIA officer, a book, and theories about what the country has done wrong in the days since 9/11, David Ensor working on that, so David start us with a headline.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Aaron, the book is written by Mr. Anonymous. He won't give his name and the interview today with us was in silhouette but he says that the west, that the United States is losing the war on terrorism.

He says it's underestimated Osama bin Laden and he says that the reason this war is going on is not because they hate us for our freedom, as you mentioned, but because they hate our policies -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, we'll get into that tonight.

Baghdad next and a job of turning a mob into a new Iraqi army, CNN's Christiane Amanpour with us again tonight, so Christiane a headline.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that new Iraqi army is no where near taking over, not even ready for the most part to do joint patrols with the United States. A senior officer in the Sunni Triangle tells CNN that terrorism has increased infinitely here since the war and that Iraq, since the war, has become a magnet for jihadis and anti-Americans.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you.

Saudi Arabia next, an unusual and controversial offer for al Qaeda, CNN's Nic Robertson on that, so Nic a headline. NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Saudi Arabia's ruling royal family gives al Qaeda here an ultimatum. Quit, turn yourselves in, or face the full force of our wrath -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

And finally to the Pentagon, where after a night and a day of reading and phone calls, our Jamie McIntyre has a better picture of the documents on torture and their implications, so Jamie a headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the document dump, pardon the inelegant term, was supposed to silence the Bush administration critics over the question of whether there was inhumane treatment of prisoners. Instead, Democrats on Capitol Hill say the documents raise more questions than they answer and some are calling for an investigation.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, it's been said, if it isn't broken don't fix it. Apparently, not everyone agrees. Ten million women a year are getting a medical procedure they do not need.

Plus a story we couldn't make up even if we tried, and we don't. It's just too weird involving several members of Congress and a crowning, yes a crowning of a controversial Korean.

And while that story may seem to belong in the tabloids, it is after all only Wednesday, which means the rooster will only bring the legitimate headlines from your morning papers tonight, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin with the premise that nearly everything done by two presidents in the name of fighting Islamic terrorism has been wrong, more so since 9/11, especially so with Iraq. Coming from the radical fringe, the message might be simpler to dismiss but that's not where it comes from.

It is the central theme of a book written by a top professional within the CIA, cleared by his bosses and soon appearing in stores, which is raising eyebrows and hackles, not to mention some very chilling possibilities, the implications in a moment.

We begin first with CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): In the book, Anonymous says President Bush and the west have seriously underestimated Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda.

ANONYMOUS: I think there's a certain amount of what can guys with turbans squatting in the desert do to the United States of America? I think we have just grossly underestimated this threat and I think there's no more, there's no more, there's no more perfect validation of that contention than the fact that we went to war in Iraq.

ENSOR: Anonymous writes he is certain that "al Qaeda will attack the Continental United States again, that its next strike will be more damaging than that of 11 September 2001 and could include the use of weapons of mass destruction.

ANONYMOUS: This war could continue far into my children's lifetime.

ENSOR: It was the CIA which insisted on his appearing only in silhouette, officials saying they don't want anyone to think he speaks for the agency. Ironically, the anonymity frees him to be more blunt. He blames intelligence Director George Tenet and other members of the Bush national security team for not giving President Bush a clear view of al Qaeda.

ANONYMOUS: He is being ill served by his briefers, his senior bureaucrats.

ENSOR: Anonymous says President Bush is flat wrong when he says the terrorists hate us for our love of freedom.

ANONYMOUS: Bin Laden hates us for what we do in terms of our foreign policy.

ENSOR: He points to the six policies bin Laden has listed as anti-Muslim, U.S. troops on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. support for corrupt tyrannical Muslim governments, U.S. occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. support for suppression of Muslim minorities by Russia, China and India, American pressure on Arab oil producers to keep oil prices artificially low, and U.S. support for Israel, right or wrong.

ANONYMOUS: Our support for Israel is one of them. If we decide to keep a current level of support that's fine. That's a democratic decision but you pay a price for that. If you continue to want cheap oil, you pay a price for that also.

ENSOR: Why should anyone listen to a man in silhouette? Terrorist expert Peter Bergen knows him well.

PETER BERGEN, TERRORISM EXPERT: He's regarded as one of the foremost authorities on bin Laden, al Qaeda, either within the government or outside it, so his views carry some weight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Other CIA officials describe Anonymous as "kind of an angry fellow" and they say that he's been shunted off into meaningless work at the agency. They suggest he's angry and clearly he is, angry he says because the government is not doing, in his view, the right things to protect this country -- Aaron.

BROWN: And the right things to protect this country would be, in his view? ENSOR: To look at those six policies that were listed a moment ago and change some of them, to change our embrace of Israel, to change our embrace of Saudi Arabia, to become more energy independent, to do a lot more drilling in Alaska and to take a whole series of measures that face up to the fact the country can't afford to be dependent on Middle Eastern oil -- Aaron.

BROWN: Doesn't he, David, doesn't he also argue that if we're going to wage war, we have to be a lot more aggressive in the kind of war we wage?

ENSOR: Yes. He advocates killing quite a few people. He says if this is going to be all out war and, if we're going to decide we're going to have these policies that are so unpopular with the Muslim world, the only way is to try to win that war and that may mean a lot of casualties on the other side and we've got to be a lot less squeamish about that in his view -- Aaron.

BROWN: And just briefly one last question, this guy that's appearing in silhouette, there's no question about his legitimacy that he is who he claims to be?

ENSOR: I've checked that. I've done, I've run the trap should we say on that. No, he's definitely a senior CIA analyst. He was, in fact, in charge of the sort of bin Laden desk over at CIA for a number of critical years but he's now been pushed aside to less important work.

BROWN: David, thank you, David Ensor from Washington tonight.

Daniel Benjamin served in the National Security Council under President Clinton. Currently, he's a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. He's also the co- author of "The Age of Sacred Terror." We spoke with Mr. Benjamin late this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well there are lots of intriguing questions here, some of them on the substance and some collaterally. Let me start with that. Why would the CIA approve this? This is a working CIA employee. He needs agency approval. Why did he get it?

DANIEL BENJAMIN, AUTHOR, "THE AGE OF SACRED TERROR": Well, the CIA doesn't take away people's First Amendment rights, but it does reserve the right to slow roll them. And the fact that this is coming out now, as opposed to say December after the election, is remarkable and I think it suggests just how bad the blood is between the CIA and the administration.

BROWN: One of the things Anonymous argues is that Iraq essentially was Osama's dream that it created a perfect environment for him to operate, for him to recruit. Is that a widely held belief within the intelligence community?

BENJAMIN: It's certainly a widely held believe I would say within the counterterrorism community, which includes lots of policy people and experts outside of the government.

I've been writing and many others have been saying since well before the war in Iraq that an invasion would be a blunder that it would confirm al Qaeda's argument that the United States and its allies seek to occupy Muslim lands and destroy Islam.

And that's exactly how it has been portrayed and it has been a real boon for them in terms of recruitment, that is for the jihadists and in terms of fundraising. And, in addition, it's brought the targets to the killers and, therefore, given the terrorists an opportunity to put some more notches in their belt.

BROWN: The administration, I think, would argue that well better the fight go on over in Iraq than the fight go on in New York or L.A.

BENJAMIN: Yes. I like to call this the flypaper theory of history that if you put the right trap in the right place all the terrorists will come there, but the record suggests that that has not happened. More than 200 people died in Madrid. Hundreds of people have died in Southeast Asia, in South Asia. We've had numerous attacks in Riyadh.

The point is not that the entire war on terror, that all terrorist activity is confined to Iraq, but rather that this has become an intensive field of jihad, as the terrorists themselves would call it and has managed to, as I said before, bring the targets and the killers together.

BROWN: And just finally, one of the arguments that Anonymous makes is that the administration at kind of a central level fails to understand the terrorists and what they want and what this war essentially is about. Do you agree? That's a very harsh view. Do you agree with that?

BENJAMIN: I do agree with that. I believe that the fundamental character of this phenomenon has not really been grasped. This is about ideology. It is about a view of the west.

It is a view of our policies, how we have behaved towards the Muslim world, and to the administration all too often this has been about taking on a group of thugs, as they've often been characterized, and a limited number of them.

I think it has not been understood yet that the way we conduct this war on terror really will have a profound impact on how the Muslim world sees us and whether Muslims themselves are going to, that is many Muslims, the hundreds of millions who might be, you know, seduced by this ideology, whether they're going to see the United States through bin Laden's eyes or through our own.

BROWN: Mr. Benjamin, good to have you with us today. Thank you.

BENJAMIN: Many thanks.

BROWN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Daniel Benjamin, we talked with him earlier today.

Now to Iraq and the man with quite a job waiting for him when he gets there. John Negroponte was sworn in today as the new American Ambassador to Baghdad. Starting on the 1st of July, he'll run the largest American Embassy in the world, overseeing about 1,700 people, most of whom with a single overarching concern, at least for now, security. With the political transition comes a slower and terribly knotty military transition. It is in the strictest sense a ground campaign.

Here again, CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Captain Jonathan Stubbs (ph) is leading a unit of the Arkansas National Guard into battle.

CAPT. JONATHAN STUBBS, COMPANY COMMANDER: There's some nice people here waving at us. That's good.

AMANPOUR: It's the battle to win a few hearts here, a few there, and time is running out. In full combat gear, cocking rifles and carrying plastic tricycles, here they are targeting the poor, those Saddam neglected.

STUBBS: It's good to see you Salam Alegam (ph). There's a lot of friendly, wonderful people out here but my enemy is out here too.

AMANPOUR: Back in their rooms trying to relax between round-the- clock missions, these soldiers tell us sometimes they get dispirited.

SGT. MARK DAVIS, ARKANAS NATIONAL GUARD: It's hard. It's hard for us to want to win their hearts and minds while they're shooting at us, if that makes any sense. They -- it's every day something, it's mortars, RPGs, small arms, looks. You drive down the highway or the street and people's flipping you off.

STUBBS: It's frustrating to hear people displeased with what we're doing, not have confidence in us. I can tell you that a lot of our friends have shed their blood to make Iraq a better place.

AMANPOUR: Indeed, a mortar attack on their base killed one soldier and wounded six others and so this is the exit strategy, getting these new Iraqi forces onto the street.

"I'm very proud to be one of the new soldiers to serve this country" says Mohammed Nada (ph).

Preparing them to serve is the U.S. military's highest priority. The Pentagon has just sent in its star General David Petrais (ph) hoping he can work a miracle and fix the fact that 15 months into the occupation this force is still a work in progress despite the looming handover. (on camera): It's the ICDC that will be vital come June 30th because they're the ones who are going to be deployed into the community. And so, at this recruiting center, American forces have stepped up their level of training.

(voice-over): They've gone from one to ten trainers but still lack the basic gear.

LT. LOGAN LANGMAID, ARKANSAS NATIONAL GUARD: They need more equipment, better equipment, everywhere from boots to uniforms to proper weapons that function properly.

AMANPOUR: And, in Fallujah, the attempt to hand over to an Iraqi brigade has failed. A U.S. officer in the Sunni Triangle says Fallujah is totally controlled by a Taliban-like police force. "It's ugly there," he says. And it's ugly in Baghdad too with frequent attacks on recruiting centers and bases.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well we try. We hope from God we can destroy those bastards.

AMANPOUR: But Iraqi forces are trying to keep up their morale. "There's not a weak heart among us" they chant.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now these forces were meant to have been, as we've seen, set up by the U.S. here. That was one of the top priorities but officer after officer that we speak to says that they've had incredible difficulty getting the money, getting the equipment, getting the floodgates of supplies open from the U.S. and through various contractors.

So, this has slowed down this critical effort until the point where now on the verge of the handover people are still saying now that the U.S. will still remain on the street in force. It will have to. It won't be able to turn over very much security to the Iraqis -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just briefly when we talk about these new Iraqi soldiers and the civil defense forces, the kind of internal police department, are we talking about people who were in the army during the Saddam era or are we talking about people from other walks of life who have decided the army is a good paycheck?

AMANPOUR: Both. Some are former army people who want to come back. Some just want a paycheck. And others, alarmingly, some of them are infiltrators. A lot of them have been arrested in connection with some of these attacks. And so the whole process of even recruiting and getting these people into a force is complicated many, many times.

BROWN: It is a complicated place. Christiane, thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Baghdad today.

On the same page in the same publication today were a pair of headlines, one predicting the demise of the House of Saud, the other just the opposite, each piece the work of a respected author and expert and tonight there's one more question they can argue over. Is the latest development in the war with al Qaeda a sign of Saudi weakness or strength?

Again, here's CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Against a backdrop of unprecedented security, an unprecedented offer. On state television, Saudi Arabia's de facto ruler announcing a deal for al Qaeda.

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH, DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): If they give themselves up without force within one month maximum from the date of this speech, we can promise them that they are going to be safe.

ROBERTSON: He continues, trial for those guilty of crimes and a crackdown for those who ignore the offer. By rushing the statement out, only five days after the al Qaeda leader in Saudi Arabia was killed at this fuel station, the ruling royal family hopes younger al Qaeda recruits will be discouraged from coalescing around a new leader. Along with tightened security it also seems to be a message that the government intends to match its promise to do its best to protect western workers.

(on camera): But expatriate workers haven't been the only targets. The bombing of this traffic police building killed five people, among them a young girl. Almost 100 others were injured and many Saudis are worried.

(voice-over): High class shopping malls and other economic targets have so far not been hit. Fear is no one knows what to expect next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm worried now. Before (unintelligible). I'm very worried.

ROBERTSON: Perceptions have been changed by al Qaeda's massive ramp up and brutal violence and, although most now accept Saudi Arabia does have a problem the question remains how big is al Qaeda?

TALAAT WAFA, SAUDI JOURNALIST: It's a handful. It's not the majority they're representing, just a few handful of people who are really doing such an act, which is harming, first of all the Islam religion plus the Saudi Arabians.

ROBERTSON: Precisely the two institutions the royal family cannot fail to vigorously defend. For now it seems they still have support albeit a little less confident these days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The government, they're working hard and the people are trying to be nice and comfort all other and, you know, things will be fine. Inshala (ph), God willing, she adds.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And that really seems to be the view here, Aaron. Many people feel that they support the government but there is this God willing factor. There really isn't a confidence that it's going to be, the problem is going to be sorted out. They think the government is doing the right thing but nobody really is sure at this stage -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you, Nic Robertson in Riyadh tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, it makes about as much sense as -- well actually it doesn't make any sense at all. Ten million women a year are having a medical procedure they do not need.

And later making sense out of a document dump, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon takes another look at the latest prisoner abuse documents. We take a break.

From New York City this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More is not always enough. In Washington yesterday there was plenty. The White House and the Pentagon releasing hundreds of pages of documents related to the prisoner abuse scandal.

The stack from the White House alone standing two inches, a paper blizzard on the second day of summer meant to put to rest the notion that the Bush administration authorized or condoned the torture or the mistreatment of prisoners. Tonight, many Democrats and human rights activists say the documents are raising more questions than they answer.

From the Pentagon tonight CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): The document dump intended to answer charges the Bush administration approved inhumane treatment of prisoners instead has left congressional critics convinced there's a cover-up.

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: To think that we are being stonewalled and that they're refusing to give us this information, I think raises serious questions about the integrity of this administration.

MCINTYRE: Is it more than coincidence that two abuses at the Abu Ghraib Prison, stripping detainees and threatening them with dogs, were among harsh interrogation techniques Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld briefly approved for Guantanamo? Democrats want a congressional investigation.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: The issue grows more urgent each day as new revelations suggest possible authorization and involvement up the chain of command at the Pentagon and at the White House.

MCINTYRE: The Democrats are frustrated that the hundreds of pages of documents released by the Bush administration so far deal only with Guantanamo, not Iraq, but the Pentagon insists Rumsfeld never issued directives for Iraq because, as a war between nations, it was clearly covered by the Geneva Conventions. So, U.S. commanders drew up tougher tactics without checking with the Pentagon, according to their sworn testimony before Congress.

GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ: I was the one that approved the interrogation rules of engagement on the 12th of September and again in the October time frame, sir.

MCINTYRE: General Sanchez' orders have been provided to Congress but remain classified and his superior insists there was no input from the Pentagon.

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, U.S. CENTRAL COMMANDER: Things don't have to go all the way to the top to be approved. We know what's right and we know what's wrong.

MCINTYRE: But using nudity and dogs to demoralize and frighten detainees, tactics Rumsfeld approved and then rescinded before they were actually used in Guantanamo, is wrong human rights advocates argue.

TOM MALINOWSKI, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: If an American soldier held by the enemy was stripped naked and humiliated in order to get information out of him, if an American soldiers was subjected to threatening un-muzzled dogs, all of us would agree, Secretary Rumsfeld would agree that it was a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: But, in fact, the Pentagon does not agree. It argues how these techniques are applied determines whether they violate the Geneva Conventions. And, in his directive to commanders last year, Secretary Rumsfeld said specifically writing in all interrogations you should continue to treat prisoners humanely regardless of the type of interrogation tactics used -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, we can all spend some time trying to figure out precisely what that means. Can you give me their view on how using an un-muzzled dog to scare somebody, and whether that's consistent with the Geneva Convention or not set that aside, how that might be considered appropriate here?

MCINTYRE: Well, they're arguing that if they had a detainee who had critical information that they could essentially frighten him by making him think something was going to happen that wasn't really going to happen. Some people might argue that that's mental torture.

But, in fact, some people might argue that a dog used like that is no different than pointing a gun at somebody and threatening to shoot them. But the Pentagon lawyers have looked at it and they claim it falls within the boundaries of law. Clearly, it's something that people would debate.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon.

A lot of reporters have been making their way through the documents over the last 24 hours or so, sorting out what is there and what is not. Julian Barnes, the Chief Pentagon reporter for "U.S. News and World Report," we're glad to have him with us tonight from Washington.

Do you know if there was within the government a disagreement about whether to release these documents at all?

JULIAN BARNES, "U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT", CHIEF PENTAGON REPORTER: Oh, yes there was. I mean the military was initially reluctant to do so. They felt that if they released the techniques, it would tell al Qaeda, future al Qaeda members that they capture how far they were willing to go and essentially give them an edge, the future prisoners, in resisting techniques of interrogation.

BROWN: Is there some evidence out there that, in fact, that that is true, that al Qaeda members being held are able to communicate with each other telling each other what to expect and how to resist it?

BARNES: That was a problem in the early days of Guantanamo when General Jeffrey Miller first got there. They were finding that the detainees there were talking among themselves, comparing notes about the interrogations, and seemed like they were giving each other tips on how to resist and so that was a problem and something they were concerned about.

BROWN: On the subject of General Miller, General Miller ran things at Guantanamo and then at a point in time he comes over to Baghdad and takes a look at the situation there and issues a series of orders. General Miller maintains that nothing he said or did contributed to the abuse at Abu Ghraib. Do the documents tell us anything in that regard?

BARNES: Well, they don't tell us anything definitive but they are suggestive because, as Jamie pointed out, we see the origins of the tactics that were twisted and perverted in Abu Ghraib discussed in the context of Guantanamo, hooding prisoners, nakedness, the use of dogs.

And we know that Miller went and visited Abu Ghraib, talked to General Sanchez, talked to Colonel Pappas (ph), talked to other people lower down in the chain of command and then later sent what's called a Tiger Team of interrogators over from Guantanamo to Iraq to discuss these techniques. So, it's critically important to figure out exactly what they said.

BROWN: Just, do we now, after all these weeks and all this paper, do we have a sense of how it all broke down?

BARNES: We don't precisely.

I think we're getting closer to it, because we are seeing where officers, high-ranking officers were discussing techniques, discussing pushing the envelope. And we know that those same officers later went to Iraq to discuss their successes, because, you know, the people in Guantanamo in that six-week window when they had access to some of these harsher techniques started getting people talking, started thinking that they were getting some progress with some of these high- value al Qaeda contacts. So they were bringing their success story over to Iraq.

BROWN: Julian, nice job tonight. Thanks for joining us. Come back again.

BARNES: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Still ahead on the program, we have much more. We'll show you how gang members in California are being turned into actors.

That and much more as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York City. A break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Pap smear has been called the most successful cancer screening tool in history. It can detect precancerous cells and cancer in the cervix. And since its invention, death rates from cervical cancer in the United States have plunged, which is why women are urged to get the test at least once every three years.

Roughly 55 million Pap smears are performed every year, for good reason. But new research shows, millions of women who do not need the test are still being screened.

Here's CNN's Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Imagine checking for tonsillitis in someone who has already had his tonsils removed. According to a new study, that's exactly the kind of thing gynecologists are doing to millions of women who have had hysterectomies.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we found, which was quite surprising, is that women continue to be screened for cancer in an organ that they don't have.

COHEN: Dr. Brenda Sirovich's study, published in "The Journal of the American Medical Association," found that 10 million women each year get Pap smears even though they've had a total hysterectomy. The purpose of a Pap smear is to check for cancer in the cervix. A woman who has had a total hysterectomy has no cervix. She's had both her uterus and her cervix surgically removed. So when these women get Pap smears, doctors are just swabbing the inside of the vagina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a waste of time. COHEN: And it is more than that. Pap smears sometimes come back positive even though there's nothing wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is disappointing that so many women are being overscreened and they're getting a lot of unnecessary follow-up tests because of it.

COHEN: That's one reason the American Cancer Society, along with other prominent cancer groups and the federal government, tell doctors not to do Pap tests on women who have had hysterectomies unless they've had cervical cancer.

So why do doctors keep doing them? One theory is, the government issues report cards on how well doctors administer preventive care.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Managed health care organizations have certain criteria that they're evaluated by. And one of those is how many of their patients get Pap tests. One concern is that they're getting higher scores because they're reaching more women, even though some of those women don't need a Pap test.

COHEN: Still, some doctors say, despite all this, they'll continue to do Pap smears on women who have had hysterectomies. They say it is the annual Pap smear that keeps women coming back for their visit even if their cervix is no longer there.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: It is worth noting that underscreening is a serious problem as well. Most women diagnosed with cervical cancer each year did not have a Pap smear or waited too long between tests.

Earlier tonight, on "LARRY KING LIVE," the late President Reagan's son Ron was asked about the eulogy he gave at his father's funeral, in particular the part where he said that his father never made the fatal mistake so many politicians make of wearing his faith on his sleeve to gain political advantage.

That remark set off a lot of speculation. Was young Ron Reagan talking about President Bush? Was he taking a jab at the president. here's how he answered that tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

RON REAGAN, SON OF PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: I didn't say anything about Bush, why would I mention George W. Bush in my father's eulogy?

No, no, no, no, the stuff about the religion. I thought, ha, funny, you then everybody thought I was talking about George W. Bush. And then I heard -- everybody thought I was talking about George -- but people connected with George W. Bush thought I was talking about George W. Bush. And then I began to think, maybe I was, I just didn't know it. LARRY KING, HOST: Do you think he wears his religion on his sleeve? He certainly refers to it more than your father ever did.

REAGAN: Well, you know, there was that answer he gave to the question about, did you talk to your father about going into Iraq? No, I talked to a higher father, you know, the almighty. When you hear somebody justifying a war by citing the almighty, God, I get a little worried, frankly. The other guys do that a lot. Osama bin Laden's always talking about Allah, what Allah wants, that he's on his side. I think that's uncomfortable.

KING: Do you have thoughts on the war?

REAGAN: Sure, I have thoughts on the war.

KING: And what do you think?

REAGAN: And I think we lied our way into the war.

KING: You think it's a mistake?

REAGAN: Absolutely, a terrible mistake. Terrible foreign policy error. We didn't have to do it. It was optional. And we were lied to. The American public was lied to about WMD, the connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam, which is virtually nonexistent except for fleeting contacts. But they're still trying to pull that one off now, Cheney and all are out there flogging that.

KING: Can I gather from that, that you will not support this president?

REAGAN: No, I won't.

KING: Will you support his opponent?

REAGAN: I will vote for whoever the viable candidate is who can defeat George W. Bush, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Ron Reagan on religion, Iraq and more earlier on "LARRY KING LIVE."

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, did the Reverend Moon put one over on Congress? Also, Hollywood's search for true grit and the former gangsters who provide it.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The circle in New York looking out on Central Park South.

There are moments that best play straight. So here goes. Lawmakers welcome a guy to Congress and the messiah shows up.

Here's CNN's Joe Johns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ornate reception was held by a group called the Interreligious and International Federation For World Peace. It took place in March in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, a giant Capitol dome in the background.

As this video once posted on the group's Web site and now circulating on the Internet shows, several members of Congress attended. The head of the Unification Church, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, speaking Korean, declared himself the messiah and said Hitler and Stalin have found strength in his teachings and mended their ways.

REP. DANNY DAVIS (D), ILLINOIS: I will give you the crown of glory.

JOHNS: Democratic Congressman Danny Davis of Illinois, seen reading a poem and then wearing white gloves, carries a crown of peace on a pillow to Moon and his wife. Davis says he thought it was all part of an interfaith peace ceremony.

DAVIS: He certainly didn't ask my permission to call himself the messiah. And I certainly had no awareness that he would be calling himself the messiah.

JOHNS: Republican Roscoe Bartlett of Maryland was there, too, and got a peace award, but says he didn't know the full program. Democrat Elijah Cummings of Maryland said he was there to support a constituent being honored and was caught by surprise by the involvement of Moon, who was convicted of tax evasion and is highly controversial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I didn't even know he was there. If I had known this was his program, I would not have been there.

JOHNS: Archbishop George Stallings, one of the organizers, said members of Congress were not misled.

ARCHBISHOP GEORGE STALLINGS, IMANI TEMPLE: It was stated very clearly the purpose and nature of the event, who would be honored at the event, that the members of Congress were all invited to participate in this event, and that Reverend Moon and Mrs. Moon would be present and honored at that same event.

JOHNS: Confusion or not, the speaker of the House cautioned his colleagues.

REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Yes, that's up to every member to make up his decision, his or her decision on what type of events they're going to participate in and what the consequences of those events are.

JOHNS (on camera): Reverend Moon and his Unification Church promote world peace and have millions of followers. The signature of a senator is required to reserve rooms for such event, but Senate officials refuse to say who signed off.

Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, leaving aside the second coming for now, we turn instead to the second printing, and then some. Former President Clinton's memoirs have sold more than 400,000 copies in the United States in just one day. Publishers today said they ordered another 725,000 copies from the printers, this in addition to the 1.5 million from the first run. Imagine if the reviews had been good.

Markets, meantime, had a day to write home about, except they never left home, but a good day just the same, with tech stocks and the Nasdaq leading the charge. People got a little richer today.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, where Hollywood goes when it needs a couple of thugs for a good gang fight. It goes to the gangs.

And, later, of course, the reason for sleeping late. Morning papers come from us.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ever since the Jets and the Sharks, Hollywood has drawn inspiration from the streets without ever exactly casting the Jets or the Sharks for real.

OK, it's a little tough finding guys who can sing and dance and handle a switchblade, unless you know where to look. And sometimes along with the cast, the looking gets you a Hollywood ending.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): This is one of the grittiest and most dangerous parts of Los Angeles, where barbed wire and graffiti are the norm, not the exception, a perfect place for trouble and perfect, too, it turns out for Hollywood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One, two, three, suck it in.

BROWN: You're looking at the latest bunch of wanna-bes in Hollywood, each of them former gang members from East L.A., with their tattoos, many with criminal records and so far enjoying a good deal of success in their new chosen profession.

EDWARD MEZA, SUSPECT ENTERTAINMENT: This is a big light, a big opening on the other end, to be honest with you. A lot of guys don't make it out of the neighborhood. A lot of guys are still caught up. A lot of guys don't ever leave, you know what I mean? And for me, this is a complete door open that I can provide for my family now. I can let something occur better and positive in my life now.

BROWN: From big-time Hollywood movies such as "Training Day" to dozens of television episodes in shows like "The Shield," these men and women have found a niche in today's entertainment industry.

They are all actors and extras working for a new company called Suspect Entertainment, a company that was started three years ago by another former gang member, Manuel Jimenez.

MANUEL JIMENEZ, PRESIDENT, SUSPECT ENTERTAINMENT: There have been small parts, but on big movies, you know what I mean, and then bigger parts in independent movies, which is cool because they're learning.

BROWN: Learning, he says, to shun gang life, just as he did a half dozen years ago.

SHIRLEY MACDONALD, ATTORNEY: He's very intelligent and at one point in his life he made the decision to steer that intelligence to something other than crime.

BROWN: Shirley McDonald represented Manny Jimenez when he was accused of a brutal home invasion. She established that police had arrested the wrong man.

MACDONALD: Just prior to going into that preliminary hearing, I had said to Manuel, if you get out of this, it is going to be a miracle. And that's why he thinks of it as a miracle, just because of that statement I made.

JIMENEZ: That was kind of like, man, this is real. You know what I mean? This ain't no joke. You know what I mean? I'm involved in something really deep.

BROWN: So he and a few friends got out, he says, into a line of work where acting tough means a lot more than actually being tough.

JESSE ACOSTA, CO-FOUNDER, SUSPECT ENTERTAINMENT: It was kind of unexpected. So we continued that. And knowing that there is a legitimate way to make money out of doing it and to provide something that Hollywood needs and wants and something that we can supply, and not only that, but give these ex-criminals or ex-gangsters, reformed gang members a chance to legitimize what they're doing.

BROWN: Nobody at Suspect Entertainment is rich yet, though, of course, they all want to be. But they say the gang life is behind them now, behind them for good.

FRANK ALVAREZ, SUSPECT ENTERTAINMENT: We love, you know, playing bad guys on TV and, you know, still having that rush of shooting guns and all that stuff. And I feel that we know we're doing it for fun, we're getting paid and we go home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A brief morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING) BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers.

On a day when there wasn't a very clear lead, newspapers around the country led local, by and large.

"Philadelphia Inquirer," actually, the president was in Pennsylvania, so they clearly led with that. "Bush Touts AIDS Funding." But up here, a very good story, if you can figure it out. "Rieger in Ethics Inquiry. Philadelphia lawmaker did not violate House rules when he cast votes but wasn't in Harrisburg at the same time." He actually rigged his voting machine to vote for him. He was at the doctor. I want those guys on my ethics panel.

"Miami Herald," two good stories. "JetBlue Adding Seven Daily Flights to New York." We think of it as the other way around. JetBlue has just taken off, no pun intended. Well, I guess it was a pun intended. "Worst is Over For Pitcher Comforted With His Family." Jose Contreras', of the Yankees, family made it out of Cuba. That's a nice ending to a story that's gotten a lot of play in both of those cities.

"Detroit News." "Michigan Roads Rank Third Worst in the United States." That's their lead. Forget that one.

But I like this one. "The Washington Times." Down on the bottom. "Coors" -- that's Pete Coors of the Coors beer family, also running for the Senate in Colorado -- "Urges Lower Drinking Age. "Dispute Brews in Colorado Senate Race." I like that story.

How much time? Just seconds, right?

"Panicked GOP Pols: Ryan Needs to Go." That's "The Chicago Sun- Times." "Antagonistic" is the weather tomorrow in Chicago.

We'll be right back to wrap it up for the night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A reminder. In case you hadn't heard, former President Bill Clinton, who has got a book out -- I don't know if you're aware of that -- takes your phone calls tomorrow live with Larry King, 9:00 Eastern time. We'll analyze and probably overanalyze what he had to say on NEWSNIGHT, that and much more.

We'll see you tomorrow. Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 23, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
A short page tonight for the program is very full. Our lead tonight deals in a fundamental way with the nature of terrorism itself and the conflicting views on why it exists.

The president says often that the enemy here hates us because we love freedom and, while that is simple and easy to understand, we suspect even he knows it is far more complicated than that. There are reasons they hate us, and hate us they do, and it is almost certainly true we have spent too little time trying to understand that.

Our lead tonight deals with that fundamental question and it is also where we begin the whip. The whip begins with a CIA officer, a book, and theories about what the country has done wrong in the days since 9/11, David Ensor working on that, so David start us with a headline.

DAVID ENSOR, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Aaron, the book is written by Mr. Anonymous. He won't give his name and the interview today with us was in silhouette but he says that the west, that the United States is losing the war on terrorism.

He says it's underestimated Osama bin Laden and he says that the reason this war is going on is not because they hate us for our freedom, as you mentioned, but because they hate our policies -- Aaron.

BROWN: David, we'll get into that tonight.

Baghdad next and a job of turning a mob into a new Iraqi army, CNN's Christiane Amanpour with us again tonight, so Christiane a headline.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that new Iraqi army is no where near taking over, not even ready for the most part to do joint patrols with the United States. A senior officer in the Sunni Triangle tells CNN that terrorism has increased infinitely here since the war and that Iraq, since the war, has become a magnet for jihadis and anti-Americans.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you.

Saudi Arabia next, an unusual and controversial offer for al Qaeda, CNN's Nic Robertson on that, so Nic a headline. NIC ROBERTSON, CNN SR. INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Saudi Arabia's ruling royal family gives al Qaeda here an ultimatum. Quit, turn yourselves in, or face the full force of our wrath -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you.

And finally to the Pentagon, where after a night and a day of reading and phone calls, our Jamie McIntyre has a better picture of the documents on torture and their implications, so Jamie a headline.

JAMIE MCINTYRE, CNN SR. PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the document dump, pardon the inelegant term, was supposed to silence the Bush administration critics over the question of whether there was inhumane treatment of prisoners. Instead, Democrats on Capitol Hill say the documents raise more questions than they answer and some are calling for an investigation.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, it's been said, if it isn't broken don't fix it. Apparently, not everyone agrees. Ten million women a year are getting a medical procedure they do not need.

Plus a story we couldn't make up even if we tried, and we don't. It's just too weird involving several members of Congress and a crowning, yes a crowning of a controversial Korean.

And while that story may seem to belong in the tabloids, it is after all only Wednesday, which means the rooster will only bring the legitimate headlines from your morning papers tonight, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin with the premise that nearly everything done by two presidents in the name of fighting Islamic terrorism has been wrong, more so since 9/11, especially so with Iraq. Coming from the radical fringe, the message might be simpler to dismiss but that's not where it comes from.

It is the central theme of a book written by a top professional within the CIA, cleared by his bosses and soon appearing in stores, which is raising eyebrows and hackles, not to mention some very chilling possibilities, the implications in a moment.

We begin first with CNN's David Ensor.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR (voice-over): In the book, Anonymous says President Bush and the west have seriously underestimated Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda.

ANONYMOUS: I think there's a certain amount of what can guys with turbans squatting in the desert do to the United States of America? I think we have just grossly underestimated this threat and I think there's no more, there's no more, there's no more perfect validation of that contention than the fact that we went to war in Iraq.

ENSOR: Anonymous writes he is certain that "al Qaeda will attack the Continental United States again, that its next strike will be more damaging than that of 11 September 2001 and could include the use of weapons of mass destruction.

ANONYMOUS: This war could continue far into my children's lifetime.

ENSOR: It was the CIA which insisted on his appearing only in silhouette, officials saying they don't want anyone to think he speaks for the agency. Ironically, the anonymity frees him to be more blunt. He blames intelligence Director George Tenet and other members of the Bush national security team for not giving President Bush a clear view of al Qaeda.

ANONYMOUS: He is being ill served by his briefers, his senior bureaucrats.

ENSOR: Anonymous says President Bush is flat wrong when he says the terrorists hate us for our love of freedom.

ANONYMOUS: Bin Laden hates us for what we do in terms of our foreign policy.

ENSOR: He points to the six policies bin Laden has listed as anti-Muslim, U.S. troops on the Arabian Peninsula, U.S. support for corrupt tyrannical Muslim governments, U.S. occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan, U.S. support for suppression of Muslim minorities by Russia, China and India, American pressure on Arab oil producers to keep oil prices artificially low, and U.S. support for Israel, right or wrong.

ANONYMOUS: Our support for Israel is one of them. If we decide to keep a current level of support that's fine. That's a democratic decision but you pay a price for that. If you continue to want cheap oil, you pay a price for that also.

ENSOR: Why should anyone listen to a man in silhouette? Terrorist expert Peter Bergen knows him well.

PETER BERGEN, TERRORISM EXPERT: He's regarded as one of the foremost authorities on bin Laden, al Qaeda, either within the government or outside it, so his views carry some weight.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ENSOR: Other CIA officials describe Anonymous as "kind of an angry fellow" and they say that he's been shunted off into meaningless work at the agency. They suggest he's angry and clearly he is, angry he says because the government is not doing, in his view, the right things to protect this country -- Aaron.

BROWN: And the right things to protect this country would be, in his view? ENSOR: To look at those six policies that were listed a moment ago and change some of them, to change our embrace of Israel, to change our embrace of Saudi Arabia, to become more energy independent, to do a lot more drilling in Alaska and to take a whole series of measures that face up to the fact the country can't afford to be dependent on Middle Eastern oil -- Aaron.

BROWN: Doesn't he, David, doesn't he also argue that if we're going to wage war, we have to be a lot more aggressive in the kind of war we wage?

ENSOR: Yes. He advocates killing quite a few people. He says if this is going to be all out war and, if we're going to decide we're going to have these policies that are so unpopular with the Muslim world, the only way is to try to win that war and that may mean a lot of casualties on the other side and we've got to be a lot less squeamish about that in his view -- Aaron.

BROWN: And just briefly one last question, this guy that's appearing in silhouette, there's no question about his legitimacy that he is who he claims to be?

ENSOR: I've checked that. I've done, I've run the trap should we say on that. No, he's definitely a senior CIA analyst. He was, in fact, in charge of the sort of bin Laden desk over at CIA for a number of critical years but he's now been pushed aside to less important work.

BROWN: David, thank you, David Ensor from Washington tonight.

Daniel Benjamin served in the National Security Council under President Clinton. Currently, he's a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington. He's also the co- author of "The Age of Sacred Terror." We spoke with Mr. Benjamin late this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well there are lots of intriguing questions here, some of them on the substance and some collaterally. Let me start with that. Why would the CIA approve this? This is a working CIA employee. He needs agency approval. Why did he get it?

DANIEL BENJAMIN, AUTHOR, "THE AGE OF SACRED TERROR": Well, the CIA doesn't take away people's First Amendment rights, but it does reserve the right to slow roll them. And the fact that this is coming out now, as opposed to say December after the election, is remarkable and I think it suggests just how bad the blood is between the CIA and the administration.

BROWN: One of the things Anonymous argues is that Iraq essentially was Osama's dream that it created a perfect environment for him to operate, for him to recruit. Is that a widely held belief within the intelligence community?

BENJAMIN: It's certainly a widely held believe I would say within the counterterrorism community, which includes lots of policy people and experts outside of the government.

I've been writing and many others have been saying since well before the war in Iraq that an invasion would be a blunder that it would confirm al Qaeda's argument that the United States and its allies seek to occupy Muslim lands and destroy Islam.

And that's exactly how it has been portrayed and it has been a real boon for them in terms of recruitment, that is for the jihadists and in terms of fundraising. And, in addition, it's brought the targets to the killers and, therefore, given the terrorists an opportunity to put some more notches in their belt.

BROWN: The administration, I think, would argue that well better the fight go on over in Iraq than the fight go on in New York or L.A.

BENJAMIN: Yes. I like to call this the flypaper theory of history that if you put the right trap in the right place all the terrorists will come there, but the record suggests that that has not happened. More than 200 people died in Madrid. Hundreds of people have died in Southeast Asia, in South Asia. We've had numerous attacks in Riyadh.

The point is not that the entire war on terror, that all terrorist activity is confined to Iraq, but rather that this has become an intensive field of jihad, as the terrorists themselves would call it and has managed to, as I said before, bring the targets and the killers together.

BROWN: And just finally, one of the arguments that Anonymous makes is that the administration at kind of a central level fails to understand the terrorists and what they want and what this war essentially is about. Do you agree? That's a very harsh view. Do you agree with that?

BENJAMIN: I do agree with that. I believe that the fundamental character of this phenomenon has not really been grasped. This is about ideology. It is about a view of the west.

It is a view of our policies, how we have behaved towards the Muslim world, and to the administration all too often this has been about taking on a group of thugs, as they've often been characterized, and a limited number of them.

I think it has not been understood yet that the way we conduct this war on terror really will have a profound impact on how the Muslim world sees us and whether Muslims themselves are going to, that is many Muslims, the hundreds of millions who might be, you know, seduced by this ideology, whether they're going to see the United States through bin Laden's eyes or through our own.

BROWN: Mr. Benjamin, good to have you with us today. Thank you.

BENJAMIN: Many thanks.

BROWN: Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Daniel Benjamin, we talked with him earlier today.

Now to Iraq and the man with quite a job waiting for him when he gets there. John Negroponte was sworn in today as the new American Ambassador to Baghdad. Starting on the 1st of July, he'll run the largest American Embassy in the world, overseeing about 1,700 people, most of whom with a single overarching concern, at least for now, security. With the political transition comes a slower and terribly knotty military transition. It is in the strictest sense a ground campaign.

Here again, CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Captain Jonathan Stubbs (ph) is leading a unit of the Arkansas National Guard into battle.

CAPT. JONATHAN STUBBS, COMPANY COMMANDER: There's some nice people here waving at us. That's good.

AMANPOUR: It's the battle to win a few hearts here, a few there, and time is running out. In full combat gear, cocking rifles and carrying plastic tricycles, here they are targeting the poor, those Saddam neglected.

STUBBS: It's good to see you Salam Alegam (ph). There's a lot of friendly, wonderful people out here but my enemy is out here too.

AMANPOUR: Back in their rooms trying to relax between round-the- clock missions, these soldiers tell us sometimes they get dispirited.

SGT. MARK DAVIS, ARKANAS NATIONAL GUARD: It's hard. It's hard for us to want to win their hearts and minds while they're shooting at us, if that makes any sense. They -- it's every day something, it's mortars, RPGs, small arms, looks. You drive down the highway or the street and people's flipping you off.

STUBBS: It's frustrating to hear people displeased with what we're doing, not have confidence in us. I can tell you that a lot of our friends have shed their blood to make Iraq a better place.

AMANPOUR: Indeed, a mortar attack on their base killed one soldier and wounded six others and so this is the exit strategy, getting these new Iraqi forces onto the street.

"I'm very proud to be one of the new soldiers to serve this country" says Mohammed Nada (ph).

Preparing them to serve is the U.S. military's highest priority. The Pentagon has just sent in its star General David Petrais (ph) hoping he can work a miracle and fix the fact that 15 months into the occupation this force is still a work in progress despite the looming handover. (on camera): It's the ICDC that will be vital come June 30th because they're the ones who are going to be deployed into the community. And so, at this recruiting center, American forces have stepped up their level of training.

(voice-over): They've gone from one to ten trainers but still lack the basic gear.

LT. LOGAN LANGMAID, ARKANSAS NATIONAL GUARD: They need more equipment, better equipment, everywhere from boots to uniforms to proper weapons that function properly.

AMANPOUR: And, in Fallujah, the attempt to hand over to an Iraqi brigade has failed. A U.S. officer in the Sunni Triangle says Fallujah is totally controlled by a Taliban-like police force. "It's ugly there," he says. And it's ugly in Baghdad too with frequent attacks on recruiting centers and bases.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well we try. We hope from God we can destroy those bastards.

AMANPOUR: But Iraqi forces are trying to keep up their morale. "There's not a weak heart among us" they chant.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now these forces were meant to have been, as we've seen, set up by the U.S. here. That was one of the top priorities but officer after officer that we speak to says that they've had incredible difficulty getting the money, getting the equipment, getting the floodgates of supplies open from the U.S. and through various contractors.

So, this has slowed down this critical effort until the point where now on the verge of the handover people are still saying now that the U.S. will still remain on the street in force. It will have to. It won't be able to turn over very much security to the Iraqis -- Aaron.

BROWN: Just briefly when we talk about these new Iraqi soldiers and the civil defense forces, the kind of internal police department, are we talking about people who were in the army during the Saddam era or are we talking about people from other walks of life who have decided the army is a good paycheck?

AMANPOUR: Both. Some are former army people who want to come back. Some just want a paycheck. And others, alarmingly, some of them are infiltrators. A lot of them have been arrested in connection with some of these attacks. And so the whole process of even recruiting and getting these people into a force is complicated many, many times.

BROWN: It is a complicated place. Christiane, thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Baghdad today.

On the same page in the same publication today were a pair of headlines, one predicting the demise of the House of Saud, the other just the opposite, each piece the work of a respected author and expert and tonight there's one more question they can argue over. Is the latest development in the war with al Qaeda a sign of Saudi weakness or strength?

Again, here's CNN's Nic Robertson.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Against a backdrop of unprecedented security, an unprecedented offer. On state television, Saudi Arabia's de facto ruler announcing a deal for al Qaeda.

CROWN PRINCE ABDULLAH, DEFENSE MINISTER (through translator): If they give themselves up without force within one month maximum from the date of this speech, we can promise them that they are going to be safe.

ROBERTSON: He continues, trial for those guilty of crimes and a crackdown for those who ignore the offer. By rushing the statement out, only five days after the al Qaeda leader in Saudi Arabia was killed at this fuel station, the ruling royal family hopes younger al Qaeda recruits will be discouraged from coalescing around a new leader. Along with tightened security it also seems to be a message that the government intends to match its promise to do its best to protect western workers.

(on camera): But expatriate workers haven't been the only targets. The bombing of this traffic police building killed five people, among them a young girl. Almost 100 others were injured and many Saudis are worried.

(voice-over): High class shopping malls and other economic targets have so far not been hit. Fear is no one knows what to expect next.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm worried now. Before (unintelligible). I'm very worried.

ROBERTSON: Perceptions have been changed by al Qaeda's massive ramp up and brutal violence and, although most now accept Saudi Arabia does have a problem the question remains how big is al Qaeda?

TALAAT WAFA, SAUDI JOURNALIST: It's a handful. It's not the majority they're representing, just a few handful of people who are really doing such an act, which is harming, first of all the Islam religion plus the Saudi Arabians.

ROBERTSON: Precisely the two institutions the royal family cannot fail to vigorously defend. For now it seems they still have support albeit a little less confident these days.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The government, they're working hard and the people are trying to be nice and comfort all other and, you know, things will be fine. Inshala (ph), God willing, she adds.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ROBERTSON: And that really seems to be the view here, Aaron. Many people feel that they support the government but there is this God willing factor. There really isn't a confidence that it's going to be, the problem is going to be sorted out. They think the government is doing the right thing but nobody really is sure at this stage -- Aaron.

BROWN: Nic, thank you, Nic Robertson in Riyadh tonight.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, it makes about as much sense as -- well actually it doesn't make any sense at all. Ten million women a year are having a medical procedure they do not need.

And later making sense out of a document dump, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon takes another look at the latest prisoner abuse documents. We take a break.

From New York City this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: More is not always enough. In Washington yesterday there was plenty. The White House and the Pentagon releasing hundreds of pages of documents related to the prisoner abuse scandal.

The stack from the White House alone standing two inches, a paper blizzard on the second day of summer meant to put to rest the notion that the Bush administration authorized or condoned the torture or the mistreatment of prisoners. Tonight, many Democrats and human rights activists say the documents are raising more questions than they answer.

From the Pentagon tonight CNN's Jamie McIntyre.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE (voice-over): The document dump intended to answer charges the Bush administration approved inhumane treatment of prisoners instead has left congressional critics convinced there's a cover-up.

SEN. DICK DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: To think that we are being stonewalled and that they're refusing to give us this information, I think raises serious questions about the integrity of this administration.

MCINTYRE: Is it more than coincidence that two abuses at the Abu Ghraib Prison, stripping detainees and threatening them with dogs, were among harsh interrogation techniques Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld briefly approved for Guantanamo? Democrats want a congressional investigation.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: The issue grows more urgent each day as new revelations suggest possible authorization and involvement up the chain of command at the Pentagon and at the White House.

MCINTYRE: The Democrats are frustrated that the hundreds of pages of documents released by the Bush administration so far deal only with Guantanamo, not Iraq, but the Pentagon insists Rumsfeld never issued directives for Iraq because, as a war between nations, it was clearly covered by the Geneva Conventions. So, U.S. commanders drew up tougher tactics without checking with the Pentagon, according to their sworn testimony before Congress.

GEN. RICARDO SANCHEZ: I was the one that approved the interrogation rules of engagement on the 12th of September and again in the October time frame, sir.

MCINTYRE: General Sanchez' orders have been provided to Congress but remain classified and his superior insists there was no input from the Pentagon.

GEN. JOHN ABIZAID, U.S. CENTRAL COMMANDER: Things don't have to go all the way to the top to be approved. We know what's right and we know what's wrong.

MCINTYRE: But using nudity and dogs to demoralize and frighten detainees, tactics Rumsfeld approved and then rescinded before they were actually used in Guantanamo, is wrong human rights advocates argue.

TOM MALINOWSKI, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: If an American soldier held by the enemy was stripped naked and humiliated in order to get information out of him, if an American soldiers was subjected to threatening un-muzzled dogs, all of us would agree, Secretary Rumsfeld would agree that it was a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MCINTYRE: But, in fact, the Pentagon does not agree. It argues how these techniques are applied determines whether they violate the Geneva Conventions. And, in his directive to commanders last year, Secretary Rumsfeld said specifically writing in all interrogations you should continue to treat prisoners humanely regardless of the type of interrogation tactics used -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, we can all spend some time trying to figure out precisely what that means. Can you give me their view on how using an un-muzzled dog to scare somebody, and whether that's consistent with the Geneva Convention or not set that aside, how that might be considered appropriate here?

MCINTYRE: Well, they're arguing that if they had a detainee who had critical information that they could essentially frighten him by making him think something was going to happen that wasn't really going to happen. Some people might argue that that's mental torture.

But, in fact, some people might argue that a dog used like that is no different than pointing a gun at somebody and threatening to shoot them. But the Pentagon lawyers have looked at it and they claim it falls within the boundaries of law. Clearly, it's something that people would debate.

BROWN: Jamie, thank you, Jamie McIntyre at the Pentagon.

A lot of reporters have been making their way through the documents over the last 24 hours or so, sorting out what is there and what is not. Julian Barnes, the Chief Pentagon reporter for "U.S. News and World Report," we're glad to have him with us tonight from Washington.

Do you know if there was within the government a disagreement about whether to release these documents at all?

JULIAN BARNES, "U.S. NEWS AND WORLD REPORT", CHIEF PENTAGON REPORTER: Oh, yes there was. I mean the military was initially reluctant to do so. They felt that if they released the techniques, it would tell al Qaeda, future al Qaeda members that they capture how far they were willing to go and essentially give them an edge, the future prisoners, in resisting techniques of interrogation.

BROWN: Is there some evidence out there that, in fact, that that is true, that al Qaeda members being held are able to communicate with each other telling each other what to expect and how to resist it?

BARNES: That was a problem in the early days of Guantanamo when General Jeffrey Miller first got there. They were finding that the detainees there were talking among themselves, comparing notes about the interrogations, and seemed like they were giving each other tips on how to resist and so that was a problem and something they were concerned about.

BROWN: On the subject of General Miller, General Miller ran things at Guantanamo and then at a point in time he comes over to Baghdad and takes a look at the situation there and issues a series of orders. General Miller maintains that nothing he said or did contributed to the abuse at Abu Ghraib. Do the documents tell us anything in that regard?

BARNES: Well, they don't tell us anything definitive but they are suggestive because, as Jamie pointed out, we see the origins of the tactics that were twisted and perverted in Abu Ghraib discussed in the context of Guantanamo, hooding prisoners, nakedness, the use of dogs.

And we know that Miller went and visited Abu Ghraib, talked to General Sanchez, talked to Colonel Pappas (ph), talked to other people lower down in the chain of command and then later sent what's called a Tiger Team of interrogators over from Guantanamo to Iraq to discuss these techniques. So, it's critically important to figure out exactly what they said.

BROWN: Just, do we now, after all these weeks and all this paper, do we have a sense of how it all broke down?

BARNES: We don't precisely.

I think we're getting closer to it, because we are seeing where officers, high-ranking officers were discussing techniques, discussing pushing the envelope. And we know that those same officers later went to Iraq to discuss their successes, because, you know, the people in Guantanamo in that six-week window when they had access to some of these harsher techniques started getting people talking, started thinking that they were getting some progress with some of these high- value al Qaeda contacts. So they were bringing their success story over to Iraq.

BROWN: Julian, nice job tonight. Thanks for joining us. Come back again.

BARNES: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you.

Still ahead on the program, we have much more. We'll show you how gang members in California are being turned into actors.

That and much more as NEWSNIGHT continues from New York City. A break first.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The Pap smear has been called the most successful cancer screening tool in history. It can detect precancerous cells and cancer in the cervix. And since its invention, death rates from cervical cancer in the United States have plunged, which is why women are urged to get the test at least once every three years.

Roughly 55 million Pap smears are performed every year, for good reason. But new research shows, millions of women who do not need the test are still being screened.

Here's CNN's Elizabeth Cohen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Imagine checking for tonsillitis in someone who has already had his tonsils removed. According to a new study, that's exactly the kind of thing gynecologists are doing to millions of women who have had hysterectomies.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What we found, which was quite surprising, is that women continue to be screened for cancer in an organ that they don't have.

COHEN: Dr. Brenda Sirovich's study, published in "The Journal of the American Medical Association," found that 10 million women each year get Pap smears even though they've had a total hysterectomy. The purpose of a Pap smear is to check for cancer in the cervix. A woman who has had a total hysterectomy has no cervix. She's had both her uterus and her cervix surgically removed. So when these women get Pap smears, doctors are just swabbing the inside of the vagina.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a waste of time. COHEN: And it is more than that. Pap smears sometimes come back positive even though there's nothing wrong.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It is disappointing that so many women are being overscreened and they're getting a lot of unnecessary follow-up tests because of it.

COHEN: That's one reason the American Cancer Society, along with other prominent cancer groups and the federal government, tell doctors not to do Pap tests on women who have had hysterectomies unless they've had cervical cancer.

So why do doctors keep doing them? One theory is, the government issues report cards on how well doctors administer preventive care.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Managed health care organizations have certain criteria that they're evaluated by. And one of those is how many of their patients get Pap tests. One concern is that they're getting higher scores because they're reaching more women, even though some of those women don't need a Pap test.

COHEN: Still, some doctors say, despite all this, they'll continue to do Pap smears on women who have had hysterectomies. They say it is the annual Pap smear that keeps women coming back for their visit even if their cervix is no longer there.

Elizabeth Cohen, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: It is worth noting that underscreening is a serious problem as well. Most women diagnosed with cervical cancer each year did not have a Pap smear or waited too long between tests.

Earlier tonight, on "LARRY KING LIVE," the late President Reagan's son Ron was asked about the eulogy he gave at his father's funeral, in particular the part where he said that his father never made the fatal mistake so many politicians make of wearing his faith on his sleeve to gain political advantage.

That remark set off a lot of speculation. Was young Ron Reagan talking about President Bush? Was he taking a jab at the president. here's how he answered that tonight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

RON REAGAN, SON OF PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: I didn't say anything about Bush, why would I mention George W. Bush in my father's eulogy?

No, no, no, no, the stuff about the religion. I thought, ha, funny, you then everybody thought I was talking about George W. Bush. And then I heard -- everybody thought I was talking about George -- but people connected with George W. Bush thought I was talking about George W. Bush. And then I began to think, maybe I was, I just didn't know it. LARRY KING, HOST: Do you think he wears his religion on his sleeve? He certainly refers to it more than your father ever did.

REAGAN: Well, you know, there was that answer he gave to the question about, did you talk to your father about going into Iraq? No, I talked to a higher father, you know, the almighty. When you hear somebody justifying a war by citing the almighty, God, I get a little worried, frankly. The other guys do that a lot. Osama bin Laden's always talking about Allah, what Allah wants, that he's on his side. I think that's uncomfortable.

KING: Do you have thoughts on the war?

REAGAN: Sure, I have thoughts on the war.

KING: And what do you think?

REAGAN: And I think we lied our way into the war.

KING: You think it's a mistake?

REAGAN: Absolutely, a terrible mistake. Terrible foreign policy error. We didn't have to do it. It was optional. And we were lied to. The American public was lied to about WMD, the connection between Osama bin Laden and Saddam, which is virtually nonexistent except for fleeting contacts. But they're still trying to pull that one off now, Cheney and all are out there flogging that.

KING: Can I gather from that, that you will not support this president?

REAGAN: No, I won't.

KING: Will you support his opponent?

REAGAN: I will vote for whoever the viable candidate is who can defeat George W. Bush, yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Ron Reagan on religion, Iraq and more earlier on "LARRY KING LIVE."

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, did the Reverend Moon put one over on Congress? Also, Hollywood's search for true grit and the former gangsters who provide it.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The circle in New York looking out on Central Park South.

There are moments that best play straight. So here goes. Lawmakers welcome a guy to Congress and the messiah shows up.

Here's CNN's Joe Johns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CAPITOL HILL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The ornate reception was held by a group called the Interreligious and International Federation For World Peace. It took place in March in the Dirksen Senate Office Building, a giant Capitol dome in the background.

As this video once posted on the group's Web site and now circulating on the Internet shows, several members of Congress attended. The head of the Unification Church, the Reverend Sun Myung Moon, speaking Korean, declared himself the messiah and said Hitler and Stalin have found strength in his teachings and mended their ways.

REP. DANNY DAVIS (D), ILLINOIS: I will give you the crown of glory.

JOHNS: Democratic Congressman Danny Davis of Illinois, seen reading a poem and then wearing white gloves, carries a crown of peace on a pillow to Moon and his wife. Davis says he thought it was all part of an interfaith peace ceremony.

DAVIS: He certainly didn't ask my permission to call himself the messiah. And I certainly had no awareness that he would be calling himself the messiah.

JOHNS: Republican Roscoe Bartlett of Maryland was there, too, and got a peace award, but says he didn't know the full program. Democrat Elijah Cummings of Maryland said he was there to support a constituent being honored and was caught by surprise by the involvement of Moon, who was convicted of tax evasion and is highly controversial.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, I didn't even know he was there. If I had known this was his program, I would not have been there.

JOHNS: Archbishop George Stallings, one of the organizers, said members of Congress were not misled.

ARCHBISHOP GEORGE STALLINGS, IMANI TEMPLE: It was stated very clearly the purpose and nature of the event, who would be honored at the event, that the members of Congress were all invited to participate in this event, and that Reverend Moon and Mrs. Moon would be present and honored at that same event.

JOHNS: Confusion or not, the speaker of the House cautioned his colleagues.

REP. DENNIS HASTERT (R-IL), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: Yes, that's up to every member to make up his decision, his or her decision on what type of events they're going to participate in and what the consequences of those events are.

JOHNS (on camera): Reverend Moon and his Unification Church promote world peace and have millions of followers. The signature of a senator is required to reserve rooms for such event, but Senate officials refuse to say who signed off.

Joe Johns, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, leaving aside the second coming for now, we turn instead to the second printing, and then some. Former President Clinton's memoirs have sold more than 400,000 copies in the United States in just one day. Publishers today said they ordered another 725,000 copies from the printers, this in addition to the 1.5 million from the first run. Imagine if the reviews had been good.

Markets, meantime, had a day to write home about, except they never left home, but a good day just the same, with tech stocks and the Nasdaq leading the charge. People got a little richer today.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, where Hollywood goes when it needs a couple of thugs for a good gang fight. It goes to the gangs.

And, later, of course, the reason for sleeping late. Morning papers come from us.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Ever since the Jets and the Sharks, Hollywood has drawn inspiration from the streets without ever exactly casting the Jets or the Sharks for real.

OK, it's a little tough finding guys who can sing and dance and handle a switchblade, unless you know where to look. And sometimes along with the cast, the looking gets you a Hollywood ending.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): This is one of the grittiest and most dangerous parts of Los Angeles, where barbed wire and graffiti are the norm, not the exception, a perfect place for trouble and perfect, too, it turns out for Hollywood.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One, two, three, suck it in.

BROWN: You're looking at the latest bunch of wanna-bes in Hollywood, each of them former gang members from East L.A., with their tattoos, many with criminal records and so far enjoying a good deal of success in their new chosen profession.

EDWARD MEZA, SUSPECT ENTERTAINMENT: This is a big light, a big opening on the other end, to be honest with you. A lot of guys don't make it out of the neighborhood. A lot of guys are still caught up. A lot of guys don't ever leave, you know what I mean? And for me, this is a complete door open that I can provide for my family now. I can let something occur better and positive in my life now.

BROWN: From big-time Hollywood movies such as "Training Day" to dozens of television episodes in shows like "The Shield," these men and women have found a niche in today's entertainment industry.

They are all actors and extras working for a new company called Suspect Entertainment, a company that was started three years ago by another former gang member, Manuel Jimenez.

MANUEL JIMENEZ, PRESIDENT, SUSPECT ENTERTAINMENT: There have been small parts, but on big movies, you know what I mean, and then bigger parts in independent movies, which is cool because they're learning.

BROWN: Learning, he says, to shun gang life, just as he did a half dozen years ago.

SHIRLEY MACDONALD, ATTORNEY: He's very intelligent and at one point in his life he made the decision to steer that intelligence to something other than crime.

BROWN: Shirley McDonald represented Manny Jimenez when he was accused of a brutal home invasion. She established that police had arrested the wrong man.

MACDONALD: Just prior to going into that preliminary hearing, I had said to Manuel, if you get out of this, it is going to be a miracle. And that's why he thinks of it as a miracle, just because of that statement I made.

JIMENEZ: That was kind of like, man, this is real. You know what I mean? This ain't no joke. You know what I mean? I'm involved in something really deep.

BROWN: So he and a few friends got out, he says, into a line of work where acting tough means a lot more than actually being tough.

JESSE ACOSTA, CO-FOUNDER, SUSPECT ENTERTAINMENT: It was kind of unexpected. So we continued that. And knowing that there is a legitimate way to make money out of doing it and to provide something that Hollywood needs and wants and something that we can supply, and not only that, but give these ex-criminals or ex-gangsters, reformed gang members a chance to legitimize what they're doing.

BROWN: Nobody at Suspect Entertainment is rich yet, though, of course, they all want to be. But they say the gang life is behind them now, behind them for good.

FRANK ALVAREZ, SUSPECT ENTERTAINMENT: We love, you know, playing bad guys on TV and, you know, still having that rush of shooting guns and all that stuff. And I feel that we know we're doing it for fun, we're getting paid and we go home.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A brief morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING) BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers.

On a day when there wasn't a very clear lead, newspapers around the country led local, by and large.

"Philadelphia Inquirer," actually, the president was in Pennsylvania, so they clearly led with that. "Bush Touts AIDS Funding." But up here, a very good story, if you can figure it out. "Rieger in Ethics Inquiry. Philadelphia lawmaker did not violate House rules when he cast votes but wasn't in Harrisburg at the same time." He actually rigged his voting machine to vote for him. He was at the doctor. I want those guys on my ethics panel.

"Miami Herald," two good stories. "JetBlue Adding Seven Daily Flights to New York." We think of it as the other way around. JetBlue has just taken off, no pun intended. Well, I guess it was a pun intended. "Worst is Over For Pitcher Comforted With His Family." Jose Contreras', of the Yankees, family made it out of Cuba. That's a nice ending to a story that's gotten a lot of play in both of those cities.

"Detroit News." "Michigan Roads Rank Third Worst in the United States." That's their lead. Forget that one.

But I like this one. "The Washington Times." Down on the bottom. "Coors" -- that's Pete Coors of the Coors beer family, also running for the Senate in Colorado -- "Urges Lower Drinking Age. "Dispute Brews in Colorado Senate Race." I like that story.

How much time? Just seconds, right?

"Panicked GOP Pols: Ryan Needs to Go." That's "The Chicago Sun- Times." "Antagonistic" is the weather tomorrow in Chicago.

We'll be right back to wrap it up for the night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A reminder. In case you hadn't heard, former President Bill Clinton, who has got a book out -- I don't know if you're aware of that -- takes your phone calls tomorrow live with Larry King, 9:00 Eastern time. We'll analyze and probably overanalyze what he had to say on NEWSNIGHT, that and much more.

We'll see you tomorrow. Until then, good night for all of us.

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