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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Army Calls Up Individual Ready Reserves; New Iraqi Government Takes Custody of Hussein

Aired June 29, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone, my goodness.
Remember when you brought your newborn child home from the hospital? Think of Iraq that way. That child you brought home had all the body parts of an adult. The genes were there. There was DNA that would shape that child's destiny but that kid was just a newborn and had yet to be shaped by the events that would mold her into a functioning adult.

So it is in Iraq today. The newborn government is just that. It needs to grow and learn and, unlike that newborn you brought home, it needs to learn and grow very quickly.

Over the last 15 months terrible mistakes and misjudgments were made. That should be clear to everyone now regardless of politics but yesterday a newborn came home and today it started walking and before long it will be talking and doing and perhaps even succeeding.

That is not guaranteed but also, regardless of politics, it is something we hope. As always the hope comes at a cost in blood and treasure and perhaps the service of men and women who thought they'd given already.

The whip begins tonight at the Pentagon and CNN's Barbara Starr with a headline.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Is it really an all volunteer force these days or are people being drafted by the fine print they signed so many years ago -- Aaron?

BROWN: Barbara, thank you.

Next to Baghdad and the report from the pediatrician, if you will, on how that newborn is doing. Our Christiane Amanpour was present at the birth, so Christiane a headline from you tonight.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this nascent government has done its first thing and that is to take legal custody of Saddam Hussein. That will happen today. And this nascent democracy experiment is also trying to take root. We'll have that report.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. The White House next and the president's work with NATO and the work yet to come with voters, CNN's Dana Bash has the watch, Dana a headline.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president is back at the White House tonight hoping that the transfer of power in Iraq and some new yet modest ally support there will help turn around growing second guessing among voters not only about the mission but about his presidency -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dana, thank you.

And finally, another headline making day at the U.S. Supreme Court; CNN's Bob Franken there as always, so Bob a headline tonight.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the Supreme Court has once again thwarted the efforts of those who are fighting an age old battle on new turf, disappointing those who say they're fighting for online decency.

BROWN: Bob, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight a look at the complicated politics in Iraq, not just those handing over sovereignty but everything else and it is a lot and it is complicated.

Plus, they are some of the finest athletes around, often racing 500 to 600 miles at a time all for chicken feed, if you will.

And at our finish line, as always, there is a rooster bringing your morning papers tonight, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight in Iraq with a taste of things to come and a sign that much remains the same. A roadside bomb went off today in Baghdad as a convoy passed by. Three U.S. Marines died in the blast. And elsewhere rebels took aim at police and local officials in at least five municipalities.

With that as a prelude, something fairly spectacular is about to happen. Saddam Hussein, once a law unto himself, will face a judge. As pictures go, they don't come much better. As stories go, they don't get much bigger.

So we begin with a preview tonight from Iraq, CNN's Jane Arraf.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): This is the only image Iraqis have seen of Saddam Hussein since he was captured almost eight months ago. On Wednesday, the moment Iraqis have been waiting for, some for decades, in the glare of television cameras the ex-president and eleven other former Iraqi officials are to be legally handed over to the new Iraqi government.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through translator): This government has formally requested the transfer of the most notorious and high profile detainees to Iraqi legal custody so Saddam Hussein, along with up to eleven other high value detainees, will be transferred to the legal custody of Iraq tomorrow and will be charged before an Iraqi investigative judge on the following day.

ARRAF: The ex-president who turned 67 in detention this year is to be paraded in handcuffs, some Iraqi officials say. Although he'll be transferred to Iraqi legal custody, for security reasons he'll physically remain under custody of American forces. On Thursday he's expected to be charged with crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide.

(on camera): Coalition sources say despite all the interrogations about weapons of mass destruction and anti coalition attacks, the normally talkative Saddam Hussein hasn't revealed much at all in detention. Some believe he's saving all his speeches for the trial.

(voice-over): Some of Saddam's closest associates will also appear to hear charges against them. They include Ali Hassan al- Majid, also known as Chemical Ali, facing trial for chemical weapons attacks against the Kurds. Taha Yassin Ramadan, the former Iraqi vice president with Saddam at the beginnings of the Baath Party and Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister who, for years, relayed Saddam's message to the west.

Although the charges will be read against them Thursday, the trial will likely be months away. Allawi has told Iraqis they have to be patient and with the new interim government signaling it will bring back the death penalty, the punishment they say will fit the crimes for which he may be convicted.

Jane Arraf, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: For nearly as long as the troops have been going to Iraq, the Pentagon has been scrambling to find enough bodies to send. Last week came reports that a pair of elite training units could be getting the call, eating the seed corn if you will.

Today there's word that a lot of people who have already given service a few years ago might be asked to give a few more years now, all this as the administration continues to argue the armed forces are big enough.

From the Pentagon tonight, here's CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice-over): In the 1991 Persian Gulf War, the Army called up thousands of people to duty who never expected to hear from Uncle Sam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many of you don't want to be back here? STARR: Now, 13 years later because of the pressures of Iraq and a force stretched thin, it's happening again. The Army shortly will begin notifying 5,600 members of the so-called individual ready reserve that they are headed to Iraq or Afghanistan later this year for up to 18 months of duty and it's not voluntary.

This reserve force headed for the combat zone is made up of people who had left the military but still owe the Army some part of their eight-year service obligation. Everyone is watching closely.

MAJ. GEN. ROBERT NESTER (RET.), RESERVE OFFICER ASSOCIATION: I think it's important to understand that they'll take some special care and feeding that they'll have some family support issues and things like that.

STARR: They will serve as truck drivers, engineers, military police and in other support jobs in National Guard and Reserve units headed overseas. Most of the troops are expected to come from California, Texas, New York and Delaware.

The Army has used individuals from the reserve in recent years to fill particular jobs but this deployment of such a large number indicates a long term problem, experts say, in finding more troops to fill the rotation requirement overseas.

(on camera): Army officials say they know that people taken from their civilian lives and sent to Iraq or Afghanistan are going to be very unhappy but they say they have no alternative given the requirement for troops in these combat zones.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Those obligations, if you will, arrive COD. They are the price tag for a pretty lofty vision of what Iraq and the rest of the Middle East could be with a helpful shove from the United States. So far, reality hasn't quite lived up to the vision, not yet.

With a progress report tonight, and there is progress, here again CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): For a country that has known dictatorship, monarchy and occupation, for people who dared not speak freely even in their own homes, democracy is shock therapy. Before the U.S. transferred political power, it was trying to teach Iraqis how to build democracy from the bottom up with local governments.

SHADA AL-OBEIDI, BAGHDAD PROVINCIAL COUNCIL: They teach us how can we talk, how can we do, how can we fight for something we want.

AMANPOUR: These new council members are electing a new governor of Baghdad. Dr. Galani was a candidate.

SAED AL-GALANI, BAGHDAD PROVINCIAL COUNCIL: It is difficult to start with (unintelligible) but I think it's the future.

AMANPOUR: The U.S. allocated $700 million to move Iraq from dictatorship to democracy but after a quick start last year the pace of local government building has slowed because this experiment too is a target.

(on camera): In the last year more than 100 Iraqi government officials have been murdered, 57 in Baghdad alone. They've been targeted in their cars, in cafes and in their offices and this violence is making it hard to build democracy.

(voice-over): Many of the local government members are called American lackeys because they've either been handpicked by U.S. soldiers or chosen by ad hoc neighborhood caucuses.

ANDREW MORRISON, U.S. ADVISER: So, the people in Iraq who unfortunately are still dedicated to stopping democracy from developing get to know them and potentially it makes them a target.

AMANPOUR: But here in Baghdad and around the country they're defiant. Thousands of local counselors keep coming to work.

ABDUL MUTALIB, BAGHDAD PROVINCIAL COUNCIL: It is an incentive to me if I'll be a target. That means I am sure I am going to do something good for my country.

AMANPOUR: Away from government, new civil society organizations are springing up designed to change the very way Iraqis think.

SADOON AL-DELEMI, EXEC. DIR., CTR. FOR RESEARCH AND STRATEGIC STUDIES: Being strong (unintelligible) and that's new things for the Iraqis. Do you know that's adopted in free societies in democratic societies.

AMANPOUR: Relishing a vote that really counts, these council members are delighted with the results. The new governor Ali Radhi Al-Haydari promised good governance and especially security.

It's the insecurity that's forced the United States to hand over power before it planned, before it helped draft a permanent constitution and hold general elections. Now, it will be up to the Iraqis themselves to determine just how much democracy they get.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now, there's been a lot of confusion as to whether the prime minister and this new government is committed to holding the first elections for the transitional national assembly in January. They say they are committed.

But in his opening speech when they were sworn in on Monday he did say that democracy would be Iraqi style and that it would take many years to transform and to actually become something democratic.

He wasn't promising that this is going to be easy or is going to be done overnight or anytime soon. It's a long term project and it's still very much in the balance.

BROWN: I don't think anybody expects it to look like the American democracy, not now and probably not ever but there must be tremendous pressure on the interim government to somehow, despite the security issues, pull off an election as scheduled.

AMANPOUR: Yes, there is a huge amount of pressure and I'll tell you the dilemma that they're facing. It's combined with the security issues. For instance, they're trying to impose emergency laws.

And we were talking to a senior official yesterday who said that they have to do it in a way that conforms with this new vision for Iraq, a new civilian moving to a democratic government.

So, while they want to put in heavy measures, it's a dilemma for them. They've got to be very careful on just how they do it. So, all of this is really a whole new mindset, a whole new way of doing things and the security issue is really governing everything, everything that happens here, whether it be the economy, democracy, rule of law, everything.

BROWN: And just one more element in this, as they do whatever it is they do, all that they do, they have to be seen, don't they, as independent of the Americans because, if they're not, then their credibility gets lost.

AMANPOUR: They have to be, you know, they have certain powers. The government can disperse funds, budgets, this and that but on many things they're still, you know, certainly obviously the security they're still locked into this bond with the U.S. forces here and many Iraqis, although they welcome their sovereignty, they welcome a new so-called Iraqi government, remember it is interim.

It only leads to a transitional situation and it's only after that that there are proper elections for a proper government here. And, in the meantime, people are concerned that there's a huge U.S. Embassy here that takes over from the U.S. occupation authority and they are concerned that a lot of their marching orders will come from the U.S.

But this is, you know, very, very much still a work in progress and the U.S. is having to hand over power before any of these jobs are done, whether it be democracy, reconstruction, economy or anything like that.

BROWN: Simple it is not, Christiane thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Baghdad tonight.

A little diplomatic intrigue here in New York, the government, the U.S. government has expelled a pair of security guards working at the Iranian mission at the United Nations, the official reason activities incompatible with their stated mission, which in diplo- speak means spying. The guards had been seen photographing local subways, busses and tunnels. An Iranian official calls it a case of tourism, not espionage. President Bush arrived home tonight from meetings with the NATO allies in Istanbul. While there he got a slim handful of promises on Iraq, an earful from protesters, and something of a bellyful from the president of France who took considerable umbrage at Mr. Bush's suggestion that the time is now right to bring Turkey into the European Union. In short the trip went pretty much as expected.

From the White House tonight, CNN's Dana Bash.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): In Turkey, the president stood at the symbolic crossroads of Europe and the Mid East to declare Iraq an its day old sovereign government a shining example.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And the historic achievement of democracy in the broader Middle East will be a victory shared by all.

BASH: His optimist flourishes came with a pointed warning for countries like Iran and Syria.

BUSH: The rise of Iraqi democracy is bringing hope to reformers across the Middle East and sending a very different message to Tehran and Damascus.

BASH: The president exited the world stage, his last overseas trip until Election Day, hoping the transfer of power in Iraq and modest new support he won from NATO there will help turn around warning signs on the campaign trail.

A CBS-New York Times poll taken just before the handover shows just 42 percent approve of the job Mr. Bush is doing, the lowest in this survey since he took office.

And while most voters say it's important for troops to stay in Iraq for now, 60 percent say the war that has come to define the Bush presidency was not worth the cost.

Ceding political control while nearly 140,000 American troops remain does pose some risk for Mr. Bush. Although unwilling to appear on camera for fear of angering the White House, several Republican pollsters told CNN they're skeptical the handover will help the president politically.

What matters most to voters, they said, is whether Americans in Iraq continue to die. Republicans inside and outside the White House do agree Iraq is critical but it's the ultimate wildcard.

SCOTT REED, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: This hand off has been important but Iraq is still an unknown and will continue to be right up to November.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And despite sinking support for the mission in Iraq and the president's job approval, Bush campaign aides say they take solace in several polls over the last month that show the president slightly improving in a head-to-head match-up against his Democratic opponent John Kerry -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, this one has a long way to go, Dana thank you, Dana Bash at the White House tonight.

On now to the U.S. Supreme Court again, not prisoners today but pornography, Congress' ongoing try at legislative protection for children against Internet smut without imposing censorship on adults.

This has been knocking around the courts nearly as long as there's been an Internet it seems or "Slate" magazine's court watcher Dahlia Lithwick put it, "By the time they finally decide the Internet could be a thing of the past."

Until then here's CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Three times the law has been shot down, actually in this case, sent down again to lower courts to decide whether there is any new technology to filter out pornography and other adult material.

"That is preferable to censorship," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote. "Since content-based prohibitions, enforced by severe criminal penalties, have the constant potential to be a repressive force in the lives and thoughts of a free people," prohibitions that might block artistic expression and useful but explicit health information like an advice Web site about sex for the disabled.

ANN BEESON, ACLU ASSOC. LEGAL DIRECTOR: The purpose of that information is to help disabled people learn about sex and a lot of people may not want their children to see that but the fact is adults have every right to access it.

FRANKEN: In his dissenting opinion, Justice Stephen Breyer argued that while the legislation "risks imposition of some minor burdens on some protected material, it significantly helps to achieve a compelling congressional goal, protecting children from exposure to commercial pornography," precisely the sentiments of the congressional sponsor.

REP. MICHAEL OXLEY (R), OHIO: It was a balancing act and unfortunately I think the kids lost on this one and the adult pornographers won.

FRANKEN: As cast by the court's majority, the question is less about indecent material than it is about technology, can it filter the unacceptable and preserve the acceptable?

DOUG ISENBERG, GIGALAW.COM: There are those who think it can be very effective but there is still certainly room for argument that any type of filtering software is both under and over inclusive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 that while he couldn't define obscenity he knew it when he saw it and the question in 2004 is can the new technology sort it out -- Aaron?

BROWN: Just briefly they sent it back to the lower court to decide what?

FRANKEN: To decide whether the new technology that has come onboard, the new filters, whether they are adequate to protect the young people that the law is designed to protect.

BROWN: Got it, Bob thank you, Bob Franken in Washington.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, a new day, a new government, and sadly more of the same, one day into the new Iraq has anything changed?

And later something a little different, something you won't want to miss. What are these birds? What is this about? What is this program?

It's NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've often said the story in Iraq is many stories seen through different lenses. On Iraq's first full day as a sovereign nation there were many ways to frame the story, including how things looked from the street.

Deborah Amos covers Iraq for National Public Radio, NPR. George Packer does the same for "The New Yorker" magazine and both join us from Baghdad. It's nice to see them both.

Deb, let me start with you. I read somewhere today that if what happens is that the insurgents are only shooting at Americans, as opposed to Iraqis, then that's actually an encouraging sign for the future.

DEBORAH AMOS, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO REPORTER: At the moment, it doesn't happen to be true. It's been quiet for the last couple of days but remember, Aaron, last week 100 people, Iraqis, died in attacks in six different cities and before that we had bombs in other places in the country.

It's going to be a test for this government to convince their citizens that they can take care of security now that sovereignty has been passed on to them. They have an army that's not quite ready. They have a police force that walked off the job just two months ago. For the first time equipment is speeding in here but it should have been here a long time ago.

BROWN: I think the argument, George, is that if the insurgents stop the car bombings, stop the attacks on Iraqi civilians, it's a sign that they are at least accepting of the notion of an Iraqi government, as opposed to an American occupation.

GEORGE PACKER, "THE NEW YORKER" STAFF REPORTER: That's right but I think what we've learned is that there are many different insurgencies in this country and some of them may be more willing to recognize some legitimacy in an Iraqi government than others.

Some of them are foreign and in that case I think there's very little willingness at all to accept what Iraqis themselves are trying to produce. There are other elements of the insurgency that are indigenous and those are the ones that I think the new government is going to try to woo and placate. Prime Minister Allawi offered an amnesty and that was sort of the first step in that direction.

BROWN: If there are many different insurgencies, and I absolutely agree that there are, are there also, Deb, a number of different centers of power in the country? I mean who controls Iraq? Is it one institution that controls Iraq or is it tonight many institutions that do?

AMOS: Well, it's institutions and it's groups. You know it depends on what city you're in. There are different political parties in the south that are stronger than in the north. You have now the central government that will begin to try to bring more power into Baghdad.

You have militias that are still operating in different cities and you have the insurgency that takes different forms in different places, so there are still quite a few centers of power.

I had an Iraqi say to me, "Here's our problem. There aren't enough Iraqis here." You are defined by your religion or your sectarian section of this country and so you still see a country that doesn't have one center of power that then disperses it out to the provinces.

BROWN: George, on that subject the last time we talked you talked about heading up north to take a look at what the Kurds have done and there is a very specific ethnic group that has created in many ways its own autonomous society and is going to be quite reluctant to give up anything.

PACKER: That's right. They've had 13 years now of semi- independent government and they've done a remarkable job with it and now they're asking their own people to accept that Kurdish leaders will become part of the central government and that Kurdistan will be reintegrated into a federal Iraq and that's a lot to ask of people who have experienced nothing but pain and cruelty from central government in Baghdad.

And those Kurdish leaders have a very hard task with their own people but they also have to reconcile the minority rights of Kurds and other groups with the desire of the majority Shia to rule which is also a historic grievance which has to be addressed. That's a tension that has not been resolved. It will be faced over the coming months as we go toward elections. BROWN: Deb, let me give you the last word. We've known each other a long time. Is it a more hopeful place right now than it was let's say a couple of weeks ago?

AMOS: I think for the moment, Aaron, it is. There are a lot of people who are willing to give this new government a chance. People -- I was at a call-in radio show yesterday, the most popular in Baghdad, and on the air people were essentially begging the terrorists to give them a day. Please no car bombs today.

The government's untested. We will have to see how they react after a car bomb here but we are in a honeymoon period. Those people who are on the fence, people who haven't decided where their loyalties lie may have made some decisions this week. We'll have to wait and see how the government handles the security situation because that is the key here. It's the key to almost everything.

BROWN: Deb, George, thank you both. Stay safe. We'll talk soon again. Thank you.

Coming up on the program still, three groups of Muslim, only two of them Arab, all of them living in Iraq and, most importantly, why this is a problem.

Also coming up, from enemy combatants to Internet porn and much more, it's been a busy week and a busy year for the Supreme Court. We'll take a look at that as well.

Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Labels can help make untidy realities neater, in large part because they often fail to capture life's messy complexities.

Yesterday, Iraq went from occupied country to sovereign nation. What that means and what comes next will be sorted out on the ground over time, apart from the label.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It may not look like much, but this Iraqi police headquarters in the southern city of Kut is a crucial element in the future of a sovereign Iraq. "We are ready," says the chief of police, "to provide security for our people without the help of foreign fighters." And he better be right.

AMATZIA BARAM, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: I'm giving this government 50 percent chance of success. Success from this government's point of view is avoiding disaster. It is very minimal expectation, but it's a lot.

BROWN: The overall landscape of Iraq is treacherous both in terms of politics and, of course, in terms of violence. According to figures published by the Brookings Institution, more than 1,700 Iraqi civilians have been killed in the past year during the insurgency, numbers not likely to decrease significantly because Iraqis now have legal power over their own country.

BATHSHEBA CROCKER, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: What we're seeing, I think, is just people inside the country who really want to disrupt the transition and make sure that it doesn't succeed. And I think that you're going to have that interest whether or not the United States is running Iraq.

BROWN: There are a wealth of political problems, and here is one. Iraqi Kurds in the north are a potential flash point. How much autonomy will they genuinely receive? And how much Arabs they anger could wreck the new government. The key, according to experts, is to make sure that everyone is a little bit disappointed.

BARAM: Which means the Kurds give up the idea of independence, don't conquer Kirkuk, but the Arabs accept a need for autonomy for the Kurds and hopefully over time the Kurds will become more and more integrated into a prosperous Iraq.

BROWN: But Iraq is not hopeless. Prosperity is on the horizon. Iraq is currently producing just about the same amount of oil it did before the war. And finally electricity is being produced at prewar levels as well.

PHOEBE MARR, AUTHOR, "THE MODERN HISTORY OF IRAQ": A number of middle-class Iraqis, professionals, people who work for the government, teachers and so on who are employed are getting three times the salary they did under Saddam. Those people are going out into the marketplace and buying refrigerators, satellite TVs, improving their houses and thereby at the retail level, increasing business for retail merchants.

BROWN: The one thing that will not change, it seems, under Iraqi sovereignty is the presence of American troops. They will be there in significant numbers, well over 100,000, for at least 18 more months if for no other reason than the very unpredictability of life in an extremely turbulent land.

BARAM: This is the heart of darkness. Iraq is the Middle East's heart of darkness. And when you go into the heart of darkness, you don't know what you'll find.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Fareed Zakaria is the editor of "Newsweek International." We're always pleased to have him with us, with us tonight.

I want to pick up on something we talked about the last time. One of the arguments you made is that it's important for this new government to draw the insurgents in. All right, take that idea and now look at Fallujah today, where the idea was to draw the insurgents in. And every report I've seen out of there is that it is a mess.

FAREED ZAKARIA, AUTHOR, "THE FUTURE OF FREEDOM": Right.

I think Fallujah is not exactly the model, because, in Fallujah, we handed over the city to the insurgents. What I'm saying is actually what Prime Minister Allawi has just proposed, which is some kind of amnesty for people who say, look we were involved, we're going to stop, and then drawing them in by providing them with some political, economic bounties. This is a country that has depended on bribes and counterbribes for thousands of years. This is not a time to stop that.

So it in some ways is more similar to the way we handled Muqtada al-Sadr in the south, which is, we got his fellow Shiite clerics to abandon him. We got his followers to abandon him. We killed several dozen of his followers, maybe over 100. But we bribed many, many more. And I think if you don't recognize that the insurgency has some broad political support and you are going to have to dry that support up, you are not going to be effective.

If you look at every insurgency, the British in Malaysia, the Brits in Ireland, what the French should have done in Algeria, the key has always been political, not military, because the superior army will always win every battle militarily, but lose the war.

BROWN: The problem -- not the problem, but a problem in Iraq is, there isn't just a singular insurgency, because you do have -- and we don't know how many -- but you do have the jihadists coming in from Syria and Iran and wherever else, Yemen and wherever else they're coming from. And they're just simply there to cause trouble and kill Americans.

ZAKARIA: You're absolutely right.

That's a huge complicating factor. The hope is, if you adopt the kind of strategy I'm talking about, you dry up the support sufficiently that you isolate the foreign jihadis, of which there are a significant number, and the die-hard Iraqi Saddam or Baathist leftovers.

And then here's the real question, Aaron. Suppose that's only 1,000 people. That's still enough to do a lot of damage. The mathematics of terrorism are such that you can disrupt a society with a small group of people.

BROWN: Do you like this government? Do you see in this government the kinds of people with the kind of character and experience who can take this country to where it needs to go in the next six, eight, 10 months?

ZAKARIA: I'm very encouraged by Prime Minister Allawi. He seems to understand that he needs to be tough, assertive with the United States. He needs to find a political solution to this insurgency.

But the key, Aaron, is going to be events on the ground. Let's say he puts this strategy in place. And I think it's a smart strategy, and I hope he goes even further than he has. If the violence doesn't stop, if it doesn't seem as though the government has the support of Iraqis who now inform on these insurgents, who now provide intelligence, then I don't know what you do, because there have been so many mistakes in the occupation that there's only so much you can reverse. BROWN: Yes.

ZAKARIA: At some point, the security situation remains sufficiently unstable that you are likely to see two things. One is a kind of deteriorating civil war. And the other is some kind of military dictatorship, because that's the only way then to assert power and to take control.

I think Allawi has a good chance at averting this. But I'm keeping my fingers crossed. This is not analysis. This is hope.

BROWN: Well, we can all knock on wood. Again, no matter where you are politically on whether the war should have happened or not, it's there. There's an enormous amount at stake. And, hopefully, there's a good end to all this.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Nice to see you again.

ZAKARIA: Thank you, sir.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

Still to come on the program, on any other day, it would have been a huge story, no doubt, more on the Supreme Court news that almost got buried yesterday on detainees. And there's still weather in Chicago to get to. That must be morning papers. And we shall.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: While power was officially changing hands in Iraq, another piece of history was made at the U.S. Supreme Court, which yesterday issued two major rulings in the war on terror.

The court is wrapping up its term. And it has been an extraordinary term.

Cliff Sloan is the general counsel at WashingtonPost.com. He also writes about legal issues. He has also been a clerk to U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens, probably had other jobs, too, along the way, but those are the notable ones. And we're always glad to see him. He's in Washington tonight.

Let's talk about yesterday first. Would you describe the rulings yesterday as historic?

CLIFF SLOAN, WASHINGTONPOST.COM: Oh, absolutely.

These were profoundly important and historic cases. What you have here is, you have the Bush administration saying the war on terror is different. We have very serious issues. And, as a result, we, the executive branch, can decide who to detain as enemy combatants, how long to detain them and what the conditions are. And you have to trust us, the executive branch, and the courts have virtually no role in that.

And the Supreme Court looked at that, it looked the administration in the eye and it said, that's not the way we do things in the United States. It said, we are very...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry.

SLOAN: It said we're very sensitive to the concerns that you raise, but when you're talking about depriving people of liberty, the courts have a role. And we'll try to accommodate your concerns, but we're going to have a role there.

BROWN: And some of the toughest language came not perhaps from where people -- you know, people tend to see the court, I think, as sort of simply conservative or moderate or liberal or what have you. Justice Scalia, certainly the most conservative end of the court, was very tough yesterday on the whole notion of separation of power.

SLOAN: Absolutely. He took the toughest line of anybody against the Bush administration.

And this is one of the things that was fascinating about these cases and very, very important for people to understand. And it really showed you a lot about the character of the Supreme Court. You had eight of the nine justices emphatically rejecting the Bush administration position. And here we are in the last year of President Bush's term. And remember, at the beginning of the term, with all the controversy over Bush vs. Gore and the role of the Supreme Court and the bitterly divided 5-4 court, and I think many people in the public looked at the court and thought, well, there are just kind of two blocs up there and they're going to vote in very predictable ways.

And unlike many of our other institutions, which have become much harder in terms of the lines that have been drawn, these cases showed that the Supreme Court is a different kind of place. The justices approach the cases as they come. And they frequently come out in unpredictable ways. As you mentioned, Justice Scalia took a hard line. Justice Breyer, a Clinton appointee, was much more accommodating of the Bush administration's concerns than Justice Scalia was.

BROWN: Do you think that the fact that -- I'm not sure I'm going to phrase this exactly right -- but that this court has been together for a while, it's been a decade since a new member joined the court, has any impact on that, on the fact that it is a little less ideological or purely ideological?

SLOAN: I think it has some impact.

As you say, it is remarkable how long this court has been together, 10 years without a change. There's only been one other time in the nation's history where there's been that long a period of time without a change. And that was in the early 1800s, when it went 11 years. So they're about to set a record. But it is difficult for the justices.

Oliver Wendell Holmes famously said that the justices are like nine scorpions in a bottle. They're up together. They have life tenure. But I think, on this court, what we've seen is that, despite the bitter fighting over particular opinions, they're on to the next case and the alliances shift. You had the First Amendment case up earlier. Justice Breyer was leading the dissent from the court's opinion blocking that law on First Amendment grounds, another example of these shifting alliances.

BROWN: It makes work more interesting for guys like you.

Thank you, Cliff. It's good to see you again.

SLOAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Cliff Sloan.

Another piece of business before we take a break. The government tonight is reporting another possible -- underscore possible -- case of mad cow. An animal tested positive in a preliminary screen. It will be tested again. False positives do come up in these preliminary tests. As was the case last week, no information about the age, sex of the animal, where it was slaughtered or whether the meat got into the system.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, these athletes have no need for BALCO or doping. No, I guess they don't. They're getting high on their own in the sport you most likely will not see in the Olympics. And you probably won't see them in morning papers either, but you will see morning papers here, that one maybe.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This is about the power of place and the irresistible pull of home, not in the metaphoric sense. This has nothing to do with love of nation or hatred of occupiers. This is about pigeons and the people who race them, a passion that doesn't often make headlines, we admit, but did catch our eye.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a wonderful hobby.

Come on. Come on. Come on.

My name is John Stafford (ph). And I'm a racing pigeon fancier.

Come on, girls.

I breed these birds. I raise them, train them and race them. They're called racing pigeons or homing pigeons. These birds will race anywhere from 100 to 600 miles. And these are athletes. They'll come through hell's fire just to get home to you. And that's fabulous.

There you go.

It's given me countless hours of satisfaction. A lot of work, but it's worth it.

This is what we call a training toss before the races. They'll probably circle a few times and then head straight for home. This helps to get the birds in shape.

That's it. They're getting their bearings now. And, shortly, they'll head for home.

Saturday is our race day. How are we doing? Ready to rock 'n' roll?

The purpose of the clubhouse is where we meet and ship our pigeons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here's the winner right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you get in this sport, it's like a disease when you get it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are like our children, you know? These ain't just pigeons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bye.

We enter the bird in the race.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixty-twenty-six, Manny (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We load them in crates. And then those crates are put on a special trailer. The birds will be released Saturday morning in Ashtabula, Ohio. And then they'll all head for home.

It is now post time. They could come at any time. I see nice clouds rolling by, but there's no pigeon yet. Come on, baby, come on. I have sat for hours waiting for birds. Any minute now. Six, eight, 10 hours waiting, waiting, waiting.

Come on, baby, where you are? Five hundred miles is a long way.

When the bird comes, I'll talk him in. It's like the scanner at the supermarket and the time is registered in my clock.

Come on. Come on. Come on, birdies. Come on. Atta-boy. Come on. Let's go. I got the beep. That's it. He's home. I'm happy.

Some people may say, you're crazy.

Oh, yes, that's another one. Come on, come on, in.

To me, it beats golf any day. Let's go. Come on. There we are.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, I don't know about that, but it's pretty cool.

That was the work of CNN photographer and editor Bob Crowley. Nicely done, Bob.

Still ahead, morning papers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country, around the world, lots of good things, going to try and get to them all. But we never do in part because I spend too much time talking about trying to get to them all.

"The Christian Science Monitor" starts it off. There's a bunch of Iraq stories, but I like this one. "Today, a Slingshot Ride Through Saturn's Marvel of Ice and Dust." We're going to get a good look at Saturn tomorrow. That will be kind of cool, won't it? Yes, I think so. Probably hear from Miles O'Brien. We haven't heard from him in a while.

"Washington Times." "New Law Passed in the District." Now, this makes so much sense to me, OK? "Drivers Must Keep Hands Off Cell Phones. Police Ready For New Law." You have to use those little earpieces when you talk on a cell phone. That seems reasonable, doesn't it? But I'm sure people will write in and say it's not.

"The Detroit News." "Rate Hike to Sting Consumers. Fed Interest Rate Increase Could End Four-Year Feast of Cheap Money, Easy Credit." We were talking about this. We'll probably do something on that tomorrow, the Fed expected to raise rates a quarter of a point. I never really understand what that means.

"Cincinnati Enquirer" has serious business on the front page. "The Vigil Continues. Tense Day Passes With No Confirmation of Soldier's Fate. Maupin Family Remains Cautiously Optimistic." They are a strong family, given the news of this week. This is young Matt Maupin, who was taken hostage in Iraq. And it is really unclear whether he is alive or not.

The big story in Philadelphia, the scandal in city government. It leads both Philadelphia papers. "The Philadelphia Inquirer." "White, 11 Others Indicted, Charges Unlikely for Street." Street is the mayor. So that's the lead there, pretty big.

"The Daily News," even bigger. This is the people's newspaper. That's what it says. "All Eyes on Street, 12 More Indictments in City Corruption Probe, the Impact on Mayor." Remember back around election time, there was the fed wiretapping? And that's what this is about.

How we doing on time? Thank you. "The Oregonian" out in Portland, Oregon. "Against a Host of Unknowns, Katz" -- that's Vera Katz, the mayor -- "Stands Ready to Battle a Rare Cancer." We have special affection for her. She brought a bunch of Portlanders to New York in the days after 9/11 to show solidarity with the city. So we wish her nothing but good luck.

Platteville, Wisconsin, is worrying about the highway. The Highway 151 Project is going to continue.

"The Plaindealer" in Burt County -- I'm going to get to them all -- Burt County, Nebraska, "Fourth of July Schedule Finalizing." Make your plans. It is time to do it.

"Chicago Sun-Times." I did it. The weather tomorrow in Chicago is "tasty."

We'll wrap it up right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we go, Soledad has a look at tomorrow's "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," he was a spokesman for the coalition during the occupation of Iraq. Now Dan Senor is back in the U.S. The mission is finally over. He tells us about his time in that dangerous part of the world and what he thinks will happen now that the new government is in power. That's CNN tomorrow, 7:00 a.m. Eastern -- Aaron, back to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Soledad, thank you.

Thank you for joining us. Good program tonight, wasn't it? Yes. Thank you.

We'll see you all tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 29, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone, my goodness.
Remember when you brought your newborn child home from the hospital? Think of Iraq that way. That child you brought home had all the body parts of an adult. The genes were there. There was DNA that would shape that child's destiny but that kid was just a newborn and had yet to be shaped by the events that would mold her into a functioning adult.

So it is in Iraq today. The newborn government is just that. It needs to grow and learn and, unlike that newborn you brought home, it needs to learn and grow very quickly.

Over the last 15 months terrible mistakes and misjudgments were made. That should be clear to everyone now regardless of politics but yesterday a newborn came home and today it started walking and before long it will be talking and doing and perhaps even succeeding.

That is not guaranteed but also, regardless of politics, it is something we hope. As always the hope comes at a cost in blood and treasure and perhaps the service of men and women who thought they'd given already.

The whip begins tonight at the Pentagon and CNN's Barbara Starr with a headline.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Is it really an all volunteer force these days or are people being drafted by the fine print they signed so many years ago -- Aaron?

BROWN: Barbara, thank you.

Next to Baghdad and the report from the pediatrician, if you will, on how that newborn is doing. Our Christiane Amanpour was present at the birth, so Christiane a headline from you tonight.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, this nascent government has done its first thing and that is to take legal custody of Saddam Hussein. That will happen today. And this nascent democracy experiment is also trying to take root. We'll have that report.

BROWN: Christiane, thank you. The White House next and the president's work with NATO and the work yet to come with voters, CNN's Dana Bash has the watch, Dana a headline.

DANA BASH, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the president is back at the White House tonight hoping that the transfer of power in Iraq and some new yet modest ally support there will help turn around growing second guessing among voters not only about the mission but about his presidency -- Aaron.

BROWN: Dana, thank you.

And finally, another headline making day at the U.S. Supreme Court; CNN's Bob Franken there as always, so Bob a headline tonight.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, the Supreme Court has once again thwarted the efforts of those who are fighting an age old battle on new turf, disappointing those who say they're fighting for online decency.

BROWN: Bob, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on NEWSNIGHT tonight a look at the complicated politics in Iraq, not just those handing over sovereignty but everything else and it is a lot and it is complicated.

Plus, they are some of the finest athletes around, often racing 500 to 600 miles at a time all for chicken feed, if you will.

And at our finish line, as always, there is a rooster bringing your morning papers tonight, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight in Iraq with a taste of things to come and a sign that much remains the same. A roadside bomb went off today in Baghdad as a convoy passed by. Three U.S. Marines died in the blast. And elsewhere rebels took aim at police and local officials in at least five municipalities.

With that as a prelude, something fairly spectacular is about to happen. Saddam Hussein, once a law unto himself, will face a judge. As pictures go, they don't come much better. As stories go, they don't get much bigger.

So we begin with a preview tonight from Iraq, CNN's Jane Arraf.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JANE ARRAF, CNN BAGHDAD BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): This is the only image Iraqis have seen of Saddam Hussein since he was captured almost eight months ago. On Wednesday, the moment Iraqis have been waiting for, some for decades, in the glare of television cameras the ex-president and eleven other former Iraqi officials are to be legally handed over to the new Iraqi government.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER (through translator): This government has formally requested the transfer of the most notorious and high profile detainees to Iraqi legal custody so Saddam Hussein, along with up to eleven other high value detainees, will be transferred to the legal custody of Iraq tomorrow and will be charged before an Iraqi investigative judge on the following day.

ARRAF: The ex-president who turned 67 in detention this year is to be paraded in handcuffs, some Iraqi officials say. Although he'll be transferred to Iraqi legal custody, for security reasons he'll physically remain under custody of American forces. On Thursday he's expected to be charged with crimes against humanity, war crimes and genocide.

(on camera): Coalition sources say despite all the interrogations about weapons of mass destruction and anti coalition attacks, the normally talkative Saddam Hussein hasn't revealed much at all in detention. Some believe he's saving all his speeches for the trial.

(voice-over): Some of Saddam's closest associates will also appear to hear charges against them. They include Ali Hassan al- Majid, also known as Chemical Ali, facing trial for chemical weapons attacks against the Kurds. Taha Yassin Ramadan, the former Iraqi vice president with Saddam at the beginnings of the Baath Party and Tariq Aziz, the former deputy prime minister who, for years, relayed Saddam's message to the west.

Although the charges will be read against them Thursday, the trial will likely be months away. Allawi has told Iraqis they have to be patient and with the new interim government signaling it will bring back the death penalty, the punishment they say will fit the crimes for which he may be convicted.

Jane Arraf, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: For nearly as long as the troops have been going to Iraq, the Pentagon has been scrambling to find enough bodies to send. Last week came reports that a pair of elite training units could be getting the call, eating the seed corn if you will.

Today there's word that a lot of people who have already given service a few years ago might be asked to give a few more years now, all this as the administration continues to argue the armed forces are big enough.

From the Pentagon tonight, here's CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice-over): In the 1991 Persian Gulf War, the Army called up thousands of people to duty who never expected to hear from Uncle Sam.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How many of you don't want to be back here? STARR: Now, 13 years later because of the pressures of Iraq and a force stretched thin, it's happening again. The Army shortly will begin notifying 5,600 members of the so-called individual ready reserve that they are headed to Iraq or Afghanistan later this year for up to 18 months of duty and it's not voluntary.

This reserve force headed for the combat zone is made up of people who had left the military but still owe the Army some part of their eight-year service obligation. Everyone is watching closely.

MAJ. GEN. ROBERT NESTER (RET.), RESERVE OFFICER ASSOCIATION: I think it's important to understand that they'll take some special care and feeding that they'll have some family support issues and things like that.

STARR: They will serve as truck drivers, engineers, military police and in other support jobs in National Guard and Reserve units headed overseas. Most of the troops are expected to come from California, Texas, New York and Delaware.

The Army has used individuals from the reserve in recent years to fill particular jobs but this deployment of such a large number indicates a long term problem, experts say, in finding more troops to fill the rotation requirement overseas.

(on camera): Army officials say they know that people taken from their civilian lives and sent to Iraq or Afghanistan are going to be very unhappy but they say they have no alternative given the requirement for troops in these combat zones.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Those obligations, if you will, arrive COD. They are the price tag for a pretty lofty vision of what Iraq and the rest of the Middle East could be with a helpful shove from the United States. So far, reality hasn't quite lived up to the vision, not yet.

With a progress report tonight, and there is progress, here again CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): For a country that has known dictatorship, monarchy and occupation, for people who dared not speak freely even in their own homes, democracy is shock therapy. Before the U.S. transferred political power, it was trying to teach Iraqis how to build democracy from the bottom up with local governments.

SHADA AL-OBEIDI, BAGHDAD PROVINCIAL COUNCIL: They teach us how can we talk, how can we do, how can we fight for something we want.

AMANPOUR: These new council members are electing a new governor of Baghdad. Dr. Galani was a candidate.

SAED AL-GALANI, BAGHDAD PROVINCIAL COUNCIL: It is difficult to start with (unintelligible) but I think it's the future.

AMANPOUR: The U.S. allocated $700 million to move Iraq from dictatorship to democracy but after a quick start last year the pace of local government building has slowed because this experiment too is a target.

(on camera): In the last year more than 100 Iraqi government officials have been murdered, 57 in Baghdad alone. They've been targeted in their cars, in cafes and in their offices and this violence is making it hard to build democracy.

(voice-over): Many of the local government members are called American lackeys because they've either been handpicked by U.S. soldiers or chosen by ad hoc neighborhood caucuses.

ANDREW MORRISON, U.S. ADVISER: So, the people in Iraq who unfortunately are still dedicated to stopping democracy from developing get to know them and potentially it makes them a target.

AMANPOUR: But here in Baghdad and around the country they're defiant. Thousands of local counselors keep coming to work.

ABDUL MUTALIB, BAGHDAD PROVINCIAL COUNCIL: It is an incentive to me if I'll be a target. That means I am sure I am going to do something good for my country.

AMANPOUR: Away from government, new civil society organizations are springing up designed to change the very way Iraqis think.

SADOON AL-DELEMI, EXEC. DIR., CTR. FOR RESEARCH AND STRATEGIC STUDIES: Being strong (unintelligible) and that's new things for the Iraqis. Do you know that's adopted in free societies in democratic societies.

AMANPOUR: Relishing a vote that really counts, these council members are delighted with the results. The new governor Ali Radhi Al-Haydari promised good governance and especially security.

It's the insecurity that's forced the United States to hand over power before it planned, before it helped draft a permanent constitution and hold general elections. Now, it will be up to the Iraqis themselves to determine just how much democracy they get.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now, there's been a lot of confusion as to whether the prime minister and this new government is committed to holding the first elections for the transitional national assembly in January. They say they are committed.

But in his opening speech when they were sworn in on Monday he did say that democracy would be Iraqi style and that it would take many years to transform and to actually become something democratic.

He wasn't promising that this is going to be easy or is going to be done overnight or anytime soon. It's a long term project and it's still very much in the balance.

BROWN: I don't think anybody expects it to look like the American democracy, not now and probably not ever but there must be tremendous pressure on the interim government to somehow, despite the security issues, pull off an election as scheduled.

AMANPOUR: Yes, there is a huge amount of pressure and I'll tell you the dilemma that they're facing. It's combined with the security issues. For instance, they're trying to impose emergency laws.

And we were talking to a senior official yesterday who said that they have to do it in a way that conforms with this new vision for Iraq, a new civilian moving to a democratic government.

So, while they want to put in heavy measures, it's a dilemma for them. They've got to be very careful on just how they do it. So, all of this is really a whole new mindset, a whole new way of doing things and the security issue is really governing everything, everything that happens here, whether it be the economy, democracy, rule of law, everything.

BROWN: And just one more element in this, as they do whatever it is they do, all that they do, they have to be seen, don't they, as independent of the Americans because, if they're not, then their credibility gets lost.

AMANPOUR: They have to be, you know, they have certain powers. The government can disperse funds, budgets, this and that but on many things they're still, you know, certainly obviously the security they're still locked into this bond with the U.S. forces here and many Iraqis, although they welcome their sovereignty, they welcome a new so-called Iraqi government, remember it is interim.

It only leads to a transitional situation and it's only after that that there are proper elections for a proper government here. And, in the meantime, people are concerned that there's a huge U.S. Embassy here that takes over from the U.S. occupation authority and they are concerned that a lot of their marching orders will come from the U.S.

But this is, you know, very, very much still a work in progress and the U.S. is having to hand over power before any of these jobs are done, whether it be democracy, reconstruction, economy or anything like that.

BROWN: Simple it is not, Christiane thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Baghdad tonight.

A little diplomatic intrigue here in New York, the government, the U.S. government has expelled a pair of security guards working at the Iranian mission at the United Nations, the official reason activities incompatible with their stated mission, which in diplo- speak means spying. The guards had been seen photographing local subways, busses and tunnels. An Iranian official calls it a case of tourism, not espionage. President Bush arrived home tonight from meetings with the NATO allies in Istanbul. While there he got a slim handful of promises on Iraq, an earful from protesters, and something of a bellyful from the president of France who took considerable umbrage at Mr. Bush's suggestion that the time is now right to bring Turkey into the European Union. In short the trip went pretty much as expected.

From the White House tonight, CNN's Dana Bash.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BASH (voice-over): In Turkey, the president stood at the symbolic crossroads of Europe and the Mid East to declare Iraq an its day old sovereign government a shining example.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And the historic achievement of democracy in the broader Middle East will be a victory shared by all.

BASH: His optimist flourishes came with a pointed warning for countries like Iran and Syria.

BUSH: The rise of Iraqi democracy is bringing hope to reformers across the Middle East and sending a very different message to Tehran and Damascus.

BASH: The president exited the world stage, his last overseas trip until Election Day, hoping the transfer of power in Iraq and modest new support he won from NATO there will help turn around warning signs on the campaign trail.

A CBS-New York Times poll taken just before the handover shows just 42 percent approve of the job Mr. Bush is doing, the lowest in this survey since he took office.

And while most voters say it's important for troops to stay in Iraq for now, 60 percent say the war that has come to define the Bush presidency was not worth the cost.

Ceding political control while nearly 140,000 American troops remain does pose some risk for Mr. Bush. Although unwilling to appear on camera for fear of angering the White House, several Republican pollsters told CNN they're skeptical the handover will help the president politically.

What matters most to voters, they said, is whether Americans in Iraq continue to die. Republicans inside and outside the White House do agree Iraq is critical but it's the ultimate wildcard.

SCOTT REED, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: This hand off has been important but Iraq is still an unknown and will continue to be right up to November.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BASH: And despite sinking support for the mission in Iraq and the president's job approval, Bush campaign aides say they take solace in several polls over the last month that show the president slightly improving in a head-to-head match-up against his Democratic opponent John Kerry -- Aaron.

BROWN: Well, this one has a long way to go, Dana thank you, Dana Bash at the White House tonight.

On now to the U.S. Supreme Court again, not prisoners today but pornography, Congress' ongoing try at legislative protection for children against Internet smut without imposing censorship on adults.

This has been knocking around the courts nearly as long as there's been an Internet it seems or "Slate" magazine's court watcher Dahlia Lithwick put it, "By the time they finally decide the Internet could be a thing of the past."

Until then here's CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Three times the law has been shot down, actually in this case, sent down again to lower courts to decide whether there is any new technology to filter out pornography and other adult material.

"That is preferable to censorship," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote. "Since content-based prohibitions, enforced by severe criminal penalties, have the constant potential to be a repressive force in the lives and thoughts of a free people," prohibitions that might block artistic expression and useful but explicit health information like an advice Web site about sex for the disabled.

ANN BEESON, ACLU ASSOC. LEGAL DIRECTOR: The purpose of that information is to help disabled people learn about sex and a lot of people may not want their children to see that but the fact is adults have every right to access it.

FRANKEN: In his dissenting opinion, Justice Stephen Breyer argued that while the legislation "risks imposition of some minor burdens on some protected material, it significantly helps to achieve a compelling congressional goal, protecting children from exposure to commercial pornography," precisely the sentiments of the congressional sponsor.

REP. MICHAEL OXLEY (R), OHIO: It was a balancing act and unfortunately I think the kids lost on this one and the adult pornographers won.

FRANKEN: As cast by the court's majority, the question is less about indecent material than it is about technology, can it filter the unacceptable and preserve the acceptable?

DOUG ISENBERG, GIGALAW.COM: There are those who think it can be very effective but there is still certainly room for argument that any type of filtering software is both under and over inclusive.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: Justice Potter Stewart said in 1964 that while he couldn't define obscenity he knew it when he saw it and the question in 2004 is can the new technology sort it out -- Aaron?

BROWN: Just briefly they sent it back to the lower court to decide what?

FRANKEN: To decide whether the new technology that has come onboard, the new filters, whether they are adequate to protect the young people that the law is designed to protect.

BROWN: Got it, Bob thank you, Bob Franken in Washington.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, a new day, a new government, and sadly more of the same, one day into the new Iraq has anything changed?

And later something a little different, something you won't want to miss. What are these birds? What is this about? What is this program?

It's NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: We've often said the story in Iraq is many stories seen through different lenses. On Iraq's first full day as a sovereign nation there were many ways to frame the story, including how things looked from the street.

Deborah Amos covers Iraq for National Public Radio, NPR. George Packer does the same for "The New Yorker" magazine and both join us from Baghdad. It's nice to see them both.

Deb, let me start with you. I read somewhere today that if what happens is that the insurgents are only shooting at Americans, as opposed to Iraqis, then that's actually an encouraging sign for the future.

DEBORAH AMOS, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO REPORTER: At the moment, it doesn't happen to be true. It's been quiet for the last couple of days but remember, Aaron, last week 100 people, Iraqis, died in attacks in six different cities and before that we had bombs in other places in the country.

It's going to be a test for this government to convince their citizens that they can take care of security now that sovereignty has been passed on to them. They have an army that's not quite ready. They have a police force that walked off the job just two months ago. For the first time equipment is speeding in here but it should have been here a long time ago.

BROWN: I think the argument, George, is that if the insurgents stop the car bombings, stop the attacks on Iraqi civilians, it's a sign that they are at least accepting of the notion of an Iraqi government, as opposed to an American occupation.

GEORGE PACKER, "THE NEW YORKER" STAFF REPORTER: That's right but I think what we've learned is that there are many different insurgencies in this country and some of them may be more willing to recognize some legitimacy in an Iraqi government than others.

Some of them are foreign and in that case I think there's very little willingness at all to accept what Iraqis themselves are trying to produce. There are other elements of the insurgency that are indigenous and those are the ones that I think the new government is going to try to woo and placate. Prime Minister Allawi offered an amnesty and that was sort of the first step in that direction.

BROWN: If there are many different insurgencies, and I absolutely agree that there are, are there also, Deb, a number of different centers of power in the country? I mean who controls Iraq? Is it one institution that controls Iraq or is it tonight many institutions that do?

AMOS: Well, it's institutions and it's groups. You know it depends on what city you're in. There are different political parties in the south that are stronger than in the north. You have now the central government that will begin to try to bring more power into Baghdad.

You have militias that are still operating in different cities and you have the insurgency that takes different forms in different places, so there are still quite a few centers of power.

I had an Iraqi say to me, "Here's our problem. There aren't enough Iraqis here." You are defined by your religion or your sectarian section of this country and so you still see a country that doesn't have one center of power that then disperses it out to the provinces.

BROWN: George, on that subject the last time we talked you talked about heading up north to take a look at what the Kurds have done and there is a very specific ethnic group that has created in many ways its own autonomous society and is going to be quite reluctant to give up anything.

PACKER: That's right. They've had 13 years now of semi- independent government and they've done a remarkable job with it and now they're asking their own people to accept that Kurdish leaders will become part of the central government and that Kurdistan will be reintegrated into a federal Iraq and that's a lot to ask of people who have experienced nothing but pain and cruelty from central government in Baghdad.

And those Kurdish leaders have a very hard task with their own people but they also have to reconcile the minority rights of Kurds and other groups with the desire of the majority Shia to rule which is also a historic grievance which has to be addressed. That's a tension that has not been resolved. It will be faced over the coming months as we go toward elections. BROWN: Deb, let me give you the last word. We've known each other a long time. Is it a more hopeful place right now than it was let's say a couple of weeks ago?

AMOS: I think for the moment, Aaron, it is. There are a lot of people who are willing to give this new government a chance. People -- I was at a call-in radio show yesterday, the most popular in Baghdad, and on the air people were essentially begging the terrorists to give them a day. Please no car bombs today.

The government's untested. We will have to see how they react after a car bomb here but we are in a honeymoon period. Those people who are on the fence, people who haven't decided where their loyalties lie may have made some decisions this week. We'll have to wait and see how the government handles the security situation because that is the key here. It's the key to almost everything.

BROWN: Deb, George, thank you both. Stay safe. We'll talk soon again. Thank you.

Coming up on the program still, three groups of Muslim, only two of them Arab, all of them living in Iraq and, most importantly, why this is a problem.

Also coming up, from enemy combatants to Internet porn and much more, it's been a busy week and a busy year for the Supreme Court. We'll take a look at that as well.

Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Labels can help make untidy realities neater, in large part because they often fail to capture life's messy complexities.

Yesterday, Iraq went from occupied country to sovereign nation. What that means and what comes next will be sorted out on the ground over time, apart from the label.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN (voice-over): It may not look like much, but this Iraqi police headquarters in the southern city of Kut is a crucial element in the future of a sovereign Iraq. "We are ready," says the chief of police, "to provide security for our people without the help of foreign fighters." And he better be right.

AMATZIA BARAM, SENIOR FELLOW, U.S. INSTITUTE OF PEACE: I'm giving this government 50 percent chance of success. Success from this government's point of view is avoiding disaster. It is very minimal expectation, but it's a lot.

BROWN: The overall landscape of Iraq is treacherous both in terms of politics and, of course, in terms of violence. According to figures published by the Brookings Institution, more than 1,700 Iraqi civilians have been killed in the past year during the insurgency, numbers not likely to decrease significantly because Iraqis now have legal power over their own country.

BATHSHEBA CROCKER, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES: What we're seeing, I think, is just people inside the country who really want to disrupt the transition and make sure that it doesn't succeed. And I think that you're going to have that interest whether or not the United States is running Iraq.

BROWN: There are a wealth of political problems, and here is one. Iraqi Kurds in the north are a potential flash point. How much autonomy will they genuinely receive? And how much Arabs they anger could wreck the new government. The key, according to experts, is to make sure that everyone is a little bit disappointed.

BARAM: Which means the Kurds give up the idea of independence, don't conquer Kirkuk, but the Arabs accept a need for autonomy for the Kurds and hopefully over time the Kurds will become more and more integrated into a prosperous Iraq.

BROWN: But Iraq is not hopeless. Prosperity is on the horizon. Iraq is currently producing just about the same amount of oil it did before the war. And finally electricity is being produced at prewar levels as well.

PHOEBE MARR, AUTHOR, "THE MODERN HISTORY OF IRAQ": A number of middle-class Iraqis, professionals, people who work for the government, teachers and so on who are employed are getting three times the salary they did under Saddam. Those people are going out into the marketplace and buying refrigerators, satellite TVs, improving their houses and thereby at the retail level, increasing business for retail merchants.

BROWN: The one thing that will not change, it seems, under Iraqi sovereignty is the presence of American troops. They will be there in significant numbers, well over 100,000, for at least 18 more months if for no other reason than the very unpredictability of life in an extremely turbulent land.

BARAM: This is the heart of darkness. Iraq is the Middle East's heart of darkness. And when you go into the heart of darkness, you don't know what you'll find.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Fareed Zakaria is the editor of "Newsweek International." We're always pleased to have him with us, with us tonight.

I want to pick up on something we talked about the last time. One of the arguments you made is that it's important for this new government to draw the insurgents in. All right, take that idea and now look at Fallujah today, where the idea was to draw the insurgents in. And every report I've seen out of there is that it is a mess.

FAREED ZAKARIA, AUTHOR, "THE FUTURE OF FREEDOM": Right.

I think Fallujah is not exactly the model, because, in Fallujah, we handed over the city to the insurgents. What I'm saying is actually what Prime Minister Allawi has just proposed, which is some kind of amnesty for people who say, look we were involved, we're going to stop, and then drawing them in by providing them with some political, economic bounties. This is a country that has depended on bribes and counterbribes for thousands of years. This is not a time to stop that.

So it in some ways is more similar to the way we handled Muqtada al-Sadr in the south, which is, we got his fellow Shiite clerics to abandon him. We got his followers to abandon him. We killed several dozen of his followers, maybe over 100. But we bribed many, many more. And I think if you don't recognize that the insurgency has some broad political support and you are going to have to dry that support up, you are not going to be effective.

If you look at every insurgency, the British in Malaysia, the Brits in Ireland, what the French should have done in Algeria, the key has always been political, not military, because the superior army will always win every battle militarily, but lose the war.

BROWN: The problem -- not the problem, but a problem in Iraq is, there isn't just a singular insurgency, because you do have -- and we don't know how many -- but you do have the jihadists coming in from Syria and Iran and wherever else, Yemen and wherever else they're coming from. And they're just simply there to cause trouble and kill Americans.

ZAKARIA: You're absolutely right.

That's a huge complicating factor. The hope is, if you adopt the kind of strategy I'm talking about, you dry up the support sufficiently that you isolate the foreign jihadis, of which there are a significant number, and the die-hard Iraqi Saddam or Baathist leftovers.

And then here's the real question, Aaron. Suppose that's only 1,000 people. That's still enough to do a lot of damage. The mathematics of terrorism are such that you can disrupt a society with a small group of people.

BROWN: Do you like this government? Do you see in this government the kinds of people with the kind of character and experience who can take this country to where it needs to go in the next six, eight, 10 months?

ZAKARIA: I'm very encouraged by Prime Minister Allawi. He seems to understand that he needs to be tough, assertive with the United States. He needs to find a political solution to this insurgency.

But the key, Aaron, is going to be events on the ground. Let's say he puts this strategy in place. And I think it's a smart strategy, and I hope he goes even further than he has. If the violence doesn't stop, if it doesn't seem as though the government has the support of Iraqis who now inform on these insurgents, who now provide intelligence, then I don't know what you do, because there have been so many mistakes in the occupation that there's only so much you can reverse. BROWN: Yes.

ZAKARIA: At some point, the security situation remains sufficiently unstable that you are likely to see two things. One is a kind of deteriorating civil war. And the other is some kind of military dictatorship, because that's the only way then to assert power and to take control.

I think Allawi has a good chance at averting this. But I'm keeping my fingers crossed. This is not analysis. This is hope.

BROWN: Well, we can all knock on wood. Again, no matter where you are politically on whether the war should have happened or not, it's there. There's an enormous amount at stake. And, hopefully, there's a good end to all this.

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Nice to see you again.

ZAKARIA: Thank you, sir.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

Still to come on the program, on any other day, it would have been a huge story, no doubt, more on the Supreme Court news that almost got buried yesterday on detainees. And there's still weather in Chicago to get to. That must be morning papers. And we shall.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: While power was officially changing hands in Iraq, another piece of history was made at the U.S. Supreme Court, which yesterday issued two major rulings in the war on terror.

The court is wrapping up its term. And it has been an extraordinary term.

Cliff Sloan is the general counsel at WashingtonPost.com. He also writes about legal issues. He has also been a clerk to U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens, probably had other jobs, too, along the way, but those are the notable ones. And we're always glad to see him. He's in Washington tonight.

Let's talk about yesterday first. Would you describe the rulings yesterday as historic?

CLIFF SLOAN, WASHINGTONPOST.COM: Oh, absolutely.

These were profoundly important and historic cases. What you have here is, you have the Bush administration saying the war on terror is different. We have very serious issues. And, as a result, we, the executive branch, can decide who to detain as enemy combatants, how long to detain them and what the conditions are. And you have to trust us, the executive branch, and the courts have virtually no role in that.

And the Supreme Court looked at that, it looked the administration in the eye and it said, that's not the way we do things in the United States. It said, we are very...

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: I'm sorry.

SLOAN: It said we're very sensitive to the concerns that you raise, but when you're talking about depriving people of liberty, the courts have a role. And we'll try to accommodate your concerns, but we're going to have a role there.

BROWN: And some of the toughest language came not perhaps from where people -- you know, people tend to see the court, I think, as sort of simply conservative or moderate or liberal or what have you. Justice Scalia, certainly the most conservative end of the court, was very tough yesterday on the whole notion of separation of power.

SLOAN: Absolutely. He took the toughest line of anybody against the Bush administration.

And this is one of the things that was fascinating about these cases and very, very important for people to understand. And it really showed you a lot about the character of the Supreme Court. You had eight of the nine justices emphatically rejecting the Bush administration position. And here we are in the last year of President Bush's term. And remember, at the beginning of the term, with all the controversy over Bush vs. Gore and the role of the Supreme Court and the bitterly divided 5-4 court, and I think many people in the public looked at the court and thought, well, there are just kind of two blocs up there and they're going to vote in very predictable ways.

And unlike many of our other institutions, which have become much harder in terms of the lines that have been drawn, these cases showed that the Supreme Court is a different kind of place. The justices approach the cases as they come. And they frequently come out in unpredictable ways. As you mentioned, Justice Scalia took a hard line. Justice Breyer, a Clinton appointee, was much more accommodating of the Bush administration's concerns than Justice Scalia was.

BROWN: Do you think that the fact that -- I'm not sure I'm going to phrase this exactly right -- but that this court has been together for a while, it's been a decade since a new member joined the court, has any impact on that, on the fact that it is a little less ideological or purely ideological?

SLOAN: I think it has some impact.

As you say, it is remarkable how long this court has been together, 10 years without a change. There's only been one other time in the nation's history where there's been that long a period of time without a change. And that was in the early 1800s, when it went 11 years. So they're about to set a record. But it is difficult for the justices.

Oliver Wendell Holmes famously said that the justices are like nine scorpions in a bottle. They're up together. They have life tenure. But I think, on this court, what we've seen is that, despite the bitter fighting over particular opinions, they're on to the next case and the alliances shift. You had the First Amendment case up earlier. Justice Breyer was leading the dissent from the court's opinion blocking that law on First Amendment grounds, another example of these shifting alliances.

BROWN: It makes work more interesting for guys like you.

Thank you, Cliff. It's good to see you again.

SLOAN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thank you, Cliff Sloan.

Another piece of business before we take a break. The government tonight is reporting another possible -- underscore possible -- case of mad cow. An animal tested positive in a preliminary screen. It will be tested again. False positives do come up in these preliminary tests. As was the case last week, no information about the age, sex of the animal, where it was slaughtered or whether the meat got into the system.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, these athletes have no need for BALCO or doping. No, I guess they don't. They're getting high on their own in the sport you most likely will not see in the Olympics. And you probably won't see them in morning papers either, but you will see morning papers here, that one maybe.

We'll take a break first. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This is about the power of place and the irresistible pull of home, not in the metaphoric sense. This has nothing to do with love of nation or hatred of occupiers. This is about pigeons and the people who race them, a passion that doesn't often make headlines, we admit, but did catch our eye.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a wonderful hobby.

Come on. Come on. Come on.

My name is John Stafford (ph). And I'm a racing pigeon fancier.

Come on, girls.

I breed these birds. I raise them, train them and race them. They're called racing pigeons or homing pigeons. These birds will race anywhere from 100 to 600 miles. And these are athletes. They'll come through hell's fire just to get home to you. And that's fabulous.

There you go.

It's given me countless hours of satisfaction. A lot of work, but it's worth it.

This is what we call a training toss before the races. They'll probably circle a few times and then head straight for home. This helps to get the birds in shape.

That's it. They're getting their bearings now. And, shortly, they'll head for home.

Saturday is our race day. How are we doing? Ready to rock 'n' roll?

The purpose of the clubhouse is where we meet and ship our pigeons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here's the winner right here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you get in this sport, it's like a disease when you get it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These are like our children, you know? These ain't just pigeons.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bye.

We enter the bird in the race.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sixty-twenty-six, Manny (ph).

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We load them in crates. And then those crates are put on a special trailer. The birds will be released Saturday morning in Ashtabula, Ohio. And then they'll all head for home.

It is now post time. They could come at any time. I see nice clouds rolling by, but there's no pigeon yet. Come on, baby, come on. I have sat for hours waiting for birds. Any minute now. Six, eight, 10 hours waiting, waiting, waiting.

Come on, baby, where you are? Five hundred miles is a long way.

When the bird comes, I'll talk him in. It's like the scanner at the supermarket and the time is registered in my clock.

Come on. Come on. Come on, birdies. Come on. Atta-boy. Come on. Let's go. I got the beep. That's it. He's home. I'm happy.

Some people may say, you're crazy.

Oh, yes, that's another one. Come on, come on, in.

To me, it beats golf any day. Let's go. Come on. There we are.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Well, I don't know about that, but it's pretty cool.

That was the work of CNN photographer and editor Bob Crowley. Nicely done, Bob.

Still ahead, morning papers.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country, around the world, lots of good things, going to try and get to them all. But we never do in part because I spend too much time talking about trying to get to them all.

"The Christian Science Monitor" starts it off. There's a bunch of Iraq stories, but I like this one. "Today, a Slingshot Ride Through Saturn's Marvel of Ice and Dust." We're going to get a good look at Saturn tomorrow. That will be kind of cool, won't it? Yes, I think so. Probably hear from Miles O'Brien. We haven't heard from him in a while.

"Washington Times." "New Law Passed in the District." Now, this makes so much sense to me, OK? "Drivers Must Keep Hands Off Cell Phones. Police Ready For New Law." You have to use those little earpieces when you talk on a cell phone. That seems reasonable, doesn't it? But I'm sure people will write in and say it's not.

"The Detroit News." "Rate Hike to Sting Consumers. Fed Interest Rate Increase Could End Four-Year Feast of Cheap Money, Easy Credit." We were talking about this. We'll probably do something on that tomorrow, the Fed expected to raise rates a quarter of a point. I never really understand what that means.

"Cincinnati Enquirer" has serious business on the front page. "The Vigil Continues. Tense Day Passes With No Confirmation of Soldier's Fate. Maupin Family Remains Cautiously Optimistic." They are a strong family, given the news of this week. This is young Matt Maupin, who was taken hostage in Iraq. And it is really unclear whether he is alive or not.

The big story in Philadelphia, the scandal in city government. It leads both Philadelphia papers. "The Philadelphia Inquirer." "White, 11 Others Indicted, Charges Unlikely for Street." Street is the mayor. So that's the lead there, pretty big.

"The Daily News," even bigger. This is the people's newspaper. That's what it says. "All Eyes on Street, 12 More Indictments in City Corruption Probe, the Impact on Mayor." Remember back around election time, there was the fed wiretapping? And that's what this is about.

How we doing on time? Thank you. "The Oregonian" out in Portland, Oregon. "Against a Host of Unknowns, Katz" -- that's Vera Katz, the mayor -- "Stands Ready to Battle a Rare Cancer." We have special affection for her. She brought a bunch of Portlanders to New York in the days after 9/11 to show solidarity with the city. So we wish her nothing but good luck.

Platteville, Wisconsin, is worrying about the highway. The Highway 151 Project is going to continue.

"The Plaindealer" in Burt County -- I'm going to get to them all -- Burt County, Nebraska, "Fourth of July Schedule Finalizing." Make your plans. It is time to do it.

"Chicago Sun-Times." I did it. The weather tomorrow in Chicago is "tasty."

We'll wrap it up right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Before we go, Soledad has a look at tomorrow's "AMERICAN MORNING."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SOLEDAD O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks, Aaron.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," he was a spokesman for the coalition during the occupation of Iraq. Now Dan Senor is back in the U.S. The mission is finally over. He tells us about his time in that dangerous part of the world and what he thinks will happen now that the new government is in power. That's CNN tomorrow, 7:00 a.m. Eastern -- Aaron, back to you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Soledad, thank you.

Thank you for joining us. Good program tonight, wasn't it? Yes. Thank you.

We'll see you all tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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