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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Saddam Hussein to Be Arraigned in Iraqi Court; Will Gitmo Detainees Be Moved to U.S.?; Interest Rates Inch Back Up

Aired June 30, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
Iraq hasn't produced a whole lot of feel good stories but tonight we can offer one up. No matter what you think of the war and regardless of how badly the occupation went, there is something that feels really good about seeing Saddam in the dock, accountable as few in his position ever are for a generation worth of crimes.

A very long time ago I was asked by the wisest man I've ever met if I thought Adolf Eichmann should receive the death penalty. I said then and I would say the same thing now of course not. He should live in an Israeli jail guarded by Israeli guards for the rest of his life.

Today in Iraq there is, of course, talk about executing Saddam and that is understandable but, again, if I were asked I would answer the same. Let him live out the rest of his life in a jail cell he ordered built, guarded by those who survived his madness. Death for him is too easy. Life, that life at least, would be the greater and better punishment.

The whip begins in Baghdad tonight, CNN's Christiane Amanpour with the watch, Christiane a headline.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Saddam Hussein and 11 members of his former regime will appear in court at what they call an arraignment today. And also now the new Iraqi government, as it deals with justice for him and them, has to deal with so many of the problems over the last 15 months since he was topped.

BROWN: Christiane, we'll get back to you early tonight.

Next to Washington and potentially major changes coming for detainees in the war on terror, CNN's Bob Franken on that for us again tonight, so Bob a headline.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, now that the Supreme Court has reminded the White House that the executive branch must answer to the judicial even in wartime the administration is discussing whether the next move will be to move detainees from Cuba to the United States.

BROWN: Bob, thank you.

And finally a new measure of the new normal down at land's end, CNN's Jeanne Meserve covering tonight, Jeanne a headline.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: As of tomorrow, every foreign flagship entering U.S. ports will undergo a security inspection. It's just one element of brand new domestic and international maritime security regimes but some are asking will they be observed? Will they do enough -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, a changing economy. For the first time in four years interest rates have started inching back up. We'll get the bottom line for you on that.

And later, a grunt's eye look at the war from the perspective of the 23 Battalion of the Army's 1st Armored Division, captured in a remarkable documentary and we'll some of the remarkable moments from it tonight.

And then, as always, the headlines tomorrow, a rooster's eye view of course, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with a quiet moment, quiet enough to hear a monster become an ordinary man, quiet enough also perhaps to make out the heartbeat of a different Iraq. That's the hope of many Iraqis, we think, even if only a few of them today managed to see their former dictator and 11 associates face for the first time Iraqi justice.

Reporting from Baghdad tonight, we begin with CNN's Brent Sadler.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's been forced to take the first step on a long road to justice, no longer a prisoner of war, subject instead to Iraq's own penal code. Justice is being seen to be done in Iraqi homes once starved of uncensored news. Their former president faces a possible death penalty for 35 years of merciless rule.

This is the old Saddam, bestowing rewards on loyal acolytes, a far cry from his latest appearance where he wanted to ask questions, a request denied. His upcoming trial months away has set off passionate debate here.

Ibrahim Sahd (ph) a shopkeeper claims Saddam killed his sons and let his family starve. Ibrahim rages. "He left us with nothing but our underwear. May he be cursed in this world and the next."

But with the anonymity of radio, Iraqi opinion may not be so clear cut. A popular radio station here took a straw poll of listeners during a one-hour phone in. It concluded that while just over 45 percent supported the death sentence for Saddam, a stunning 41 percent thought he should be released.

(on camera): The legal fate of 11 of Saddam Hussein's top officials was also transferred to Iraqi control although they'll all remain locked up in an American-run jail.

(voice-over): Tariq Aziz, one of the best known faces of the old regime, was also transferred to Iraqi custody along with Ali Hassan al-Majid, known as Chemical Ali, for his alleged role in using chemical weapons said to be visibly shaking. The deposed leadership is expected to face charges of crimes against humanity, including genocide.

"Saddam deserves a slow death, slower than slow" says Ahmed Shinjah (ph), a restaurateur "in the way he made innocent people suffer." Iraqis demonstrating freedom of expression after liberation from Saddam Hussein and his handover to the new Iraqi government.

Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A quick footnote on the proceedings. Saddam and the rest will go before a judge tomorrow, an unnamed judge at an undisclosed location at a time left unsaid for all the obvious reasons.

Security will be tight to prevent either an escape attempt or a Jack Ruby scenario, if you will, from unfolding. Further down the road, the accused will be tried before a special tribunal under the observation of international legal experts. And, if it all goes smoothly, it will be something of a departure in a saga that's neither been simple nor easy almost since day one.

With that side of the story CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Liberation brought laughter and later laughter gave way to looting and the first signs of a dangerous security vacuum. And into that vacuum a decision was made that most agree was a fundamental mistake, Paul Bremer's first major order as U.S. administrator, firing the Iraqi Army.

In a protest outside occupation headquarters, many of the fired soldiers and officers threatened to turn against the Americans and that seems to have happened. After long dismissing the insurgents as dead-enders, the U.S. is only now openly admitting their strength.

LT. GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, U.S. ARMY: I think it is a very serious threat. These are very serious terrorists, some of them clearly from outside the country, perhaps increasingly so.

AMANPOUR: The U.S. military has not managed to crush them. Now the Iraqis will try.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER: We are mobilizing our police force. We definitely are mobilizing our army and make it ready to confront the enemies of Iraq and the criminals and the terrorists.

AMANPOUR: Wherever you go, people can't shake their worry, no matter how fervently they hope the handover brings peace and quiet. "Of course we're all worried about the problems and explosions" says Jaba Sabi (ph). "When we leave our homes we saw the Muslim prayer of death. We don't know what will happen to us or whether our children will be killed."

Lives, democracy, the economy, reconstruction, all held hostage by the constant violence. Those who have come to help a target and so are their Iraqi colleagues.

Hassan (ph) who translates for the U.S. Army hides his identity against a certain death sentence but he is defiant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to say something to the insurgents that they will not make me scared. (Unintelligible) are working. I will never get rid of my job with the Americans until they make this place and make my country stable and secure.

AMANPOUR: But even those like Gafal Jazari (ph) sitting in his empty art gallery with no power says at least they are free to hope now. "Saddam's departure made Iraqis free of fear" he said.

But feelings are complicated. At the Baghdad Morgue, Dr. Nofil Shukuh (ph) smiles when I ask him whether it's better without Saddam. He's come here to collect his uncle's body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe it is better. It is better but without America. If the Americans go out, U.S. Army go out, it's better but if they remain here it's bad and very bad.

AMANPOUR: But the U.S. Army is staying. It has to to protect the new Iraqi government that has become a target as well.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now even as Saddam Hussein prepares his long road to justice finally, the new terror has to be dealt with, the terrorism that we've seen over the last 15 or so months and, to that end, the U.S. has launched yet another air strike on a safe house we're told in Fallujah, that no-go-zone which is believed to be the base of Abu Musab Zarqawi -- Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, quickly, how much -- back to the Saddam appearance later today for you. How much anticipation is there in Baghdad that they will finally see him? It's been a long time since he's been seen. Are people looking forward to this moment?

AMANPOUR: Yes, they're looking forward to it. It's going to be very, very tightly controlled, as you can imagine with very few people able to take those pictures and we think a tight lid on when they'll be able to be released. But we're going to be there. We'll bring them to you just as soon as it's possible.

BROWN: We are eager to see them, curiosity if nothing else, Christiane thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Baghdad. A couple of other notes. Still no clear word tonight on Corporal Wassef Hassoun, the Marine held captive. There is, however, growing confusion about how he came to disappear.

Yesterday the military changed his classification from missing to captured having said earlier this week that he had gone on "an unauthorized absence" prior to falling into enemy hands.

"The New York Times" meanwhile is reporting that Marine corporal wanted to go home, was making his way to Lebanon when he was abducted by Islamic fighters who now threaten to behead him.

Back home tonight there are signs the Bush administration was caught unprepared by the Supreme Court's decision giving prisoners in the war on terror access to the American legal system.

The Justice Department expected to win and reportedly didn't have much of a Plan B when the rulings came down two days ago. Tonight, the strategy is coming into focus, plane tickets perhaps for hundreds of smaller fish. As for the rest, life perhaps on a modified American plan.

Here again CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Government officials acknowledge they were just not expecting the Supreme Court to create this new reality. Now the Pentagon, Justice Department and other agencies are scrambling, forced to deal with the here and now what?

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They are discussing these issues as we speak. They have already been under discussion since the court ruling on Monday, I believe it was, and we will have more to say soon.

FRANKEN: But now the government no longer has all the say. The Supreme Court has ruled the detainees must have a hearing and lawyers.

BARBARA OLSHANSKY, CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: What we need to do is move quickly in the court to get to see our clients and to be able to, you know, move their case forward.

FRANKEN: They never have. Their clients have been separated from any outside contact at Guantanamo Bay.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I would characterize Guantanamo Bay, Cuba as the least worst place we could have selected.

FRANKEN: That was back when the Bush administration decided Guantanamo was out of reach of the U.S. courts. Among the many ideas being batted around now is moving the detainees by the hundreds perhaps off of Cuba to a military prison or prisons in the United States, possibly located in areas where the courts are considered more conservative. Other options, use procedures that are part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, similar to the way that prisoners of war are treated. Or, establish a federal court branch at Guantanamo to process detainee claims.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm not in a position to say what the range of potentials is but that we are making that assessment.

FRANKEN: But the next moves are not entirely up to the government.

MICHAEL NOONE, MILITARY LAW ANALYST: They will be subject to judicial review of individual decisions as to why a person is being detained in Guantanamo or at some third place.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: For starters someone will have to devise a procedure for letting the detainees know that they have new legal rights and that could theoretically influence how long they are detainees -- Aaron.

BROWN: Bob, thank you, Bob Franken who is in Washington tonight.

More now on the repercussions. Joining us from Berkeley, California tonight is John Yoo, a former deputy assistant attorney general currently a professor at Berkeley's Boalt Hall School of Law. It's nice to have you with us tonight.

These were complicated decisions and I know you see some of the decision as actually favorable to the government and it was. Let's focus on the part that allows the hearings, that allows a neutral party to look at these cases. Why is that such a horrible thing?

JOHN YOO, BOALT HALL LAW SCHOOL: It's not that it's a horrible thing but it was a real change in the way the Supreme Court had viewed the role of the federal courts in terms of enemy aliens held outside the United States.

There had been a Supreme Court case from 1950, which seemed to say pretty clearly that the federal courts would not try to review the treatment of enemy aliens held during wartime outside the United States.

And the Supreme Court effectively this week overruled that decision and it was that decision upon which the government relied when they located the base at Guantanamo Bay.

But now that we have that process in place, the court has left a lot of these questions open. So, for example, it's not clear whether that neutral decision maker has to be a federal judge or whether it could be a military judge who would hear the case of these detainees first, create a paper record, and then send that forward to a federal judge to review. BROWN: In the piece you wrote for "The Wall Street Journal" today you I think said that these things will have to be done to satisfy an imperial judiciary. Isn't the opposite to hear an imperial presidency, a presidency where only the president or only the executive branch gets to make these decisions and no one gets to review them at all?

YOO: Well, that had been the rule in our system until this week. It's not that President Bush was the imperial presidency. It's that the Constitution gives the president, as the commander-in-chief, the discretion to decide how to run and win a war.

In this war, even more so than other wars, the treatment of detainees is an integral part of those kind of operations, so I don't think it's an imperial presidency. I think this has traditionally been within the powers of the presidency.

I think what has happened for the first time is that the courts have decided to review the treatment of prisoners held outside the United States. That's something that has never happened in our history before.

BROWN: Are you surprised then that the court at both its ideological ends, its most conservative and its most liberal, basically didn't buy the argument?

YOO: Well, this is a little different. This is on the case of the U.S. citizens, the Hamdi case and Padilla case as opposed to the Guantanamo Bay case which we've just been talking about. I have to admit that was surprising.

I was surprised to see Justice Scalia and Justice Stephens try to essentially put the government in a really hard place, which is if you want to fight a war and U.S. citizens are involved on the other side, you either have to suspend the writ of habeas corpus or try them for treason.

That hasn't been the practice in our country before. In World War II, for example, there were Nazi saboteurs who infiltrated into the United States. They were tried by military courts. Eventually a habeas corpus proceeding was held. It went all the way to the Supreme Court.

There was no suspension of habeas corpus there and there was no trial of them for treason. They were just tried for being enemy combatants who tried to commit sabotage in the United States.

BROWN: Just as briefly as you can do you think we are less safe because of these decisions?

YOO: I don't know if we're less safe but we're going to have to devote a lot more resources now than we were going to in the past to lawyers, judges and the judicial process. And the question is worth asking would those resources be better spent elsewhere in fighting the war on terrorism than on reviewing the case of enemy combatants who have been captured in the field by our military? BROWN: Professor, we look forward today talking to you. We appreciate your time tonight. Thanks a lot.

YOO: Thank you.

BROWN: John Yoo from Berkeley, California tonight.

A symbol of the old normal is changing again. Starting on the 3rd of August visitors will be permitted to see the inside of the Statue of Liberty but through a glass darkly if you will. Prior to 9/11 you could take a trip to the crown afterwards. First the island then the statue was off limits.

After August 3rd you'll only be able to enter the pedestal for a look into the statue through skylight windows and only when accompanied by a park ranger but, from where we sit, that's a whole lot better than nothing. And starting tomorrow in nearby Port Elizabeth, New Jersey and elsewhere on the waterfront big changes of the new normal as well.

Here's CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE (voice-over): U.S. Coast Guard inspectors board a Dutch flag ship in Baltimore's harbor to check out security, are doors locked, IDs checked? Does it have an international ship security certificate?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need to have you copy that front page where it's stamped.

MESERVE: The cargo on this ship is not hazardous. It's only paper. But the captain acknowledges the world has changed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think to be honest a lot of people hope that it goes back to the old system but I think there will be no way that will be the case, you know.

MESERVE: As of July 1st, each and every foreign flag vessel entering U.S. ports will be inspected. If it does not meet security standards or, if one of its last five ports of call was out of compliance with the new international security code, the penalty is potentially harsh.

TOM RIDGE, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: There will be a point in time where if they do not comply we can conceivably exercise the right to ban them from the United States and that's the only way we can operate.

MESERVE: Analysts predict that most governments will say their port security is up to international standards but...

KIM PETERSON, MARITIME SECURITY COUNCIL: The reality will be something all together different and I suspect that less than half of the ports that will report as being compliant will actually have taken the measures that were expected of them by the U.N.

MESERVE: Over 95 percent of U.S. overseas trade moves through the nation's ports. Their economic importance and proximity to important infrastructure and large populations make them a potentially tempting terrorist target, so on July 1st, U.S. ports also must implement new security plans.

CAPT. CURT SPRINGER, U.S. COAST GUARD: It may have meant building a fence. It may have meant improving access controls. It may have meant installing a camera.

MESERVE: But a new report from the General Accounting Office says the Coast Guard has not yet reviewed thousands of security plans, relying instead on a system of self certification and, although the attack on the USS Cole was al Qaeda's most spectacular maritime operation, critics say these plans do not address the threat of an attack from the water.

(on camera): There is widespread agreement that maritime security is moving in the right direction. It's just not moving fast enough for everyone.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: One other quick item on the subject. Jeanne is also reporting on another snafu within the Department of Homeland Security. According to the department's inspector general, DHS hasn't taken the proper steps to secure its own wireless computer networks leaving them potentially open to prying eyes. The IG's report offered five recommendations to plug the holes. The department says steps are now being taken to do just that.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, news from a city in Iraq where little news gets out and few westerners get in, a rare report from Fallujah coming up.

And the diplomats of tomorrow grappling with the problems of Iraq today, a break first.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If the now sovereign Iraq is a newborn just home from the hospital, as we said last night, an infant that needs to grow up quickly, you could say the city of Fallujah is the bad stranger poised to snatch that child away. It is one of the hottest flashpoints in the country, the only city the U.S. military has turned over to local forces with close ties to the previous regime.

Nir Rosen is one of the very few reporters working for a western news agency who has been inside the city and quite a place it is. He wrote about it for "The New Yorker" magazine and he joins us now from Tel Aviv. It's a terrific piece. Welcome. Who is running Fallujah right now?

NIR ROSEN, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: There's sort of a coalition of former Baathists, former high-ranking officers in Saddam's army and very radical Sunni Muslims. You could call them (unintelligible) Muslims.

BROWN: And where in that mix if any -- I'm sorry. Where in that mix are the jihadists, the foreigners who have come in?

ROSEN: I wouldn't exaggerate they're all the foreigners. There is a foreign presence. They were integral to the fighting to liberate the city from the occupation but they're there in a certain neighborhood and particularly in the Jalah (ph) neighborhood.

And they're actually a bit of an inconvenience to the new leadership of the city who negotiated the cease-fire that granted them autonomy. But these foreign elements disapprove of the cease-fire. They like to continue the battle to liberate all of Iraq from the Americans.

BROWN: Was it -- do you think...

ROSEN: They're under control so far though.

BROWN: OK. Do you think it was a mistake for the Americans not to go in and clear out the problem and be done with it?

ROSEN: I think it was probably a mistake for the Americans to go in, in the first place in fact. It certainly created the myth of Fallujah throughout the Muslim world and certainly in Iraq. It united the Sunnis and Shias. There are Shia fighters alongside the Sunnis.

It was a very brutal battle. In places the city looks like Stalingrad, homes flattened up to 800, perhaps 1,000 people died most of them apparently women and children.

So, I think perhaps the entire siege of Fallujah was a very big mistake. You now have the Saudi, the Saudi group that was kidnapping foreigners in Saudi Arabia. They call themselves the Fallujah Brigade, Blue Squadron I'm sorry.

BROWN: I'm sorry, a couple more questions if we can. We've heard reports that it's become sort of Taliban-like there that a lot of things that went on in Taliban control in Afghanistan are now going on in Fallujah. Did you see that sort of thing?

ROSEN: This is definitely true. The leadership of the town, of the city is actually in a mosque. It's not the official leadership but that's the center of power and all decisions are made there. So, that in and of itself implies that you're going to have religious laws enforced and it's a very conservative town.

So, there is this sort of competition between your average guy who is very conservative and wants Islamic law imposed like in Saudi Arabia perhaps and the more radical foreigners who in their neighborhoods are imposing actual Taliban-like laws. They've banned dominoes. They've banned hairdressers. You see beards now more than you would in the past because they've banned shaving. They beat people for being publicly drunk or for selling alcohol, which is rare in the first place, so it's certainly a city where you see Islamic law being imposed.

BROWN: Mr. Rosen thanks for your time. The piece again is in "New Yorker" magazine. It is a stunning piece of work and a great look at what Fallujah is today.

ROSEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thanks for your time.

For Iraq's new government, Fallujah and the many other challenges ahead are hardly academic concerns of course but seen through a longer lens from a greater distance, from a classroom on a U.S. college campus to be exact, the events unfolding in Iraq contain lessons in the literal sense.

From Boston tonight, CNN's Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): On the seventh floor at Tufts University's Fletcher School...

PROF. KATHLEEN HAMILL, TUFTS FLETCHER SCHOOL: We're going to be breaking into groups.

LOTHIAN: Professor Kathleen Hamill...

HAMILL: Does everybody have the handouts?

LOTHIAN: ...has been leading 17 graduate students, some of them aspiring diplomats in a case study on Iraq.

HAMILL: It's a great case study because, you know, there are so many unknowns.

LOTHIAN: After watching a video clip of Monday's surprise handover, students begin dissecting the details, focusing on whether the transition has any meaning, amid some cynicism.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What has changed is that the blue portfolio was handed from Bremer to the other guy.

LOTHIAN: There are deeper debates about human rights, about continued U.S. and coalition military control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doesn't that nullify the whole resolution?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't nullify the whole resolution.

LOTHIAN: About who controls the money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The vast amount of the money is controlled by the U.S.

LOTHIAN: At this table, an argument in support of the U.S. and coalition's role and the transfer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having a legitimate government and having (unintelligible) again I think is absolutely critical.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The transfer of power is (unintelligible) symbolic.

LOTHIAN (on camera): Even though these graduate students are far removed from the official process they're nonetheless asking some of the same questions and debating some of the same issues as U.S. coalition and Iraqi officials.

(voice-over): And having some the same frustrations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a little difficult because it's open ended, right? We don't yet know what's going to come out of it.

LOTHIAN: But most agree an important first step has been taken.

ANNE CULLEN, GRADUATE STUDENT: It's a new beginning and maybe we can move away from this violence.

LOTHIAN: A foreign policy debate in the classroom and beyond.

HAMILL: And these are students that hopefully some day will be in a position to make decisions like that.

LOTHIAN: Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, I love this tease, it's something that hasn't happened since the last millennium and it's going to cost you perhaps for a long time into this one, the cost of money is going up.

And later, the American gunners who call Uday Hussein's palace home.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This is a story about interest rates. We wish there was a sexier way of saying it, but, alas, there isn't. It's about interest rates.

They went up today, the Fed raising them for the first time in four years. Of course, this won't matter to most of you, unless you were thinking of buying a house or a car or perhaps a freezer. Maybe you were thinking of using your credit card or refinancing your mortgage. If you just don't plan on buying anything, well, this story isn't for you. On the other hand, here's CNN's Kathleen Hays.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An interest rate hike heard around the world, as Alan Greenspan and his colleagues at the Federal Reserve boosted the key short-term rate to 1.25 percent from 1 percent, what had been the lowest interest rate in more than 40 years. But keep this in perspective. This is still an incredibly low interest rate.

ALAN BLINDER, FORMER FEDERAL RESERVE VICE CHAIRMAN: That's still pretty cheap money to me. I think the era of cheap money, it is on its way out, but it's still here for a while.

HAYS: Greenspan and company last raised rates in the late 1990s, worried that a soaring stock market and a roaring economy were boosting inflation. Their key rate rose to 6.5 percent. But as the stock market bubble burst and thousands lost their jobs, the Fed reversed course and cut rates with a vengeance, especially after the September 11 attacks pushed the economy even deeper into recession.

The last rate cut was in June of 2003 and the Fed watched nervous nervously, hoping jobs would begin to grow again.

BLINDER: And the Fed felt that it was its duty to push the economy up out of the hole. And I think they were right in that.

HAYS: Super low interest rates caused auto sales to skyrocket. Home sales heated up. Consumers refinanced mortgages at record rates. And, aided by tax cuts, the economy started to recover.

(on camera): With signs of inflation appearing and jobs growing again, the Fed has switched gears. Now the big question on Wall Street is if it keeps hiking rates in small baby steps or gets more aggressive.

ALICE RIVLIN, FORMER FEDERAL RESERVE VICE CHAIRMAN: They are more likely, I think, although not necessarily right away, to speed up the pace of increase if the economy continues strong and if inflation continues to rise.

HAYS (voice-over): Economists agree the big challenge now is for the Fed to maintain its delicate balance, raising rates just enough to keep cheap money from overheating the economy.

Kathleen Hays, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The stock markets rose on the news of the rate hike, investors apparently pleased rates weren't raised more than they were. But for anyone buying or selling a home, the announcement was not a welcome one.

That piece of the story from CNN's Jonathan Freed. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL KARNUTH, HOME BUYER: Oh, it's finished?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KARNUTH: Yes, let's check it out.

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the home they wanted. It's the home they bought. But now Michael Karnuth and his fiance aren't convinced it's a home they can afford.

KARNUTH: We know that, as rates go up, it makes it more difficult and a little bit stressful in terms of what the monthly payments are going to be.

FREED: The couple's been waiting to lock in their mortgage rate. Now they say they're kicking themselves.

CARMEN ECHEVERRIA, HOME BUYER: I wish we had made a quicker decision, but unfortunately we have to deal with what we've got now.

FREED: They're not alone. Beth Ryan is a realtor who suddenly finds herself having to push clients to make a decision.

BETH RYAN, REAL ESTATE AGENT: Seventy-five percent are hesitating, which is a huge number.

FREED: Ryan says home buyers have been spoiled with rates at 4 or 5 percent. And now...

RYAN: Some of them are just deciding, maybe I'll wait another year or I'll keep renting or maybe I haven't sold my place. Maybe I'll wait.

FREED: And they're not just waiting in real estate. This car dealership isn't used to hearing hesitation in its customers' voices either.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we're noticing some people are saying, let me just sit back and wait just to see what's going to happen.

FREED: Back at the house, as the couple continue their inspection, the news they were hoping wouldn't happen did.

(on camera): I just received word here Federal Reserve boosts key short-term interest rate by one-quarter percent. You haven't locked in yet. What's going through your mind?

KARNUTH: I'm hoping that the markets is going to react favorably to that news and the long-term rates are going to come down a little bit.

FREED: But at least initially, the mortgage markets are headed up. And Michael Karnuth admits he's probably being overly optimistic.

Jonathan Freed, CNN, Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come tonight on NEWSNIGHT, too soon to tell, but not too soon to ask which voters might line up with which candidates and why, some interesting thoughts from Jeff Greenfield after the break, and the always interesting morning papers.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Politics now here at home. We often say and like to believe that this program is not a slave to polls, especially this far out from November. In truth, a lot of noise comes from the numbers in an election year.

So tonight, we turn down the volume some and listen instead to our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): They come at you like a swarm of gnats, these poll numbers. And they seem to be saying the same thing more or less that they've been all saying for months. It's a close race. It's an evenly divided electorate. There are far fewer undecided voters than usual.

(on camera): So, instead of more numbers, let's ask a simple question, one posed to me by a voter in Georgia last week? Which groups that voted heavily for Al Gore in 2000 might be drifting toward the president this time? And which groups that went heavily for Bush in 2000 might be moving towards Senator Kerry? If we knew the answer to that question, we might know who is going to win.

(voice-over): First, there's that gender gap. Women went solidly for Gore last time, men for Bush. Right now, Kerry isn't doing as well with women as Gore did, probably because, in the wake of September 11, abstract questions of national interest have become urgent matters of personal security. But Kerry's camp thinks their man will do better among men than Gore did, why the campaign stresses his Vietnam history and why there's an ever-present veterans honor guard at his campaign stops.

But look at that Vietnam image again. There's another message in that ad to gun owners. Bush clobbered Gore among gun owners in 2000, 61 to 36. But the Kerry campaign believes he can shrink that gap. He's a hunter, as new ads will soon remind voters. And with the economy and war front and center, the gun issue may not have the power it did four years ago.

Not so fast, says the Bush team. These hunters tend to be part of a bigger group, moderate, even conservative Democrats who mostly stayed with Gore in 2000. The image of Kerry as an elitist Massachusetts liberal ought, they think, to drive some of those voters toward the president. And here is another target of opportunity for Bush. In 2000, he only got 19 percent of the Jewish vote. This year, with his unswerving support for Israel, with one of Israel's most prominent foes removed with U.S. force, that share is likely to rise. It probably won't make much of a difference in New York or California or Illinois. Those are safe Kerry states. But how about Florida?

There were about 250,000 Jewish votes cast there last time. If Bush gets 10 percent more of that Jewish vote this time, he'd pick up an additional 25,000 votes. Hispanics, too, are being courted heavily. Gore won 62 percent of the Hispanic vote. Bush forces think they may get more thanks to a culturally conservative message. But, remember, the Hispanic vote is very different state by state, Cuban- Americans in Florida heavily Republican, Mexican-Americans in Arizona much more Democratic.

And, of course, cultural conservatism can cut both ways. In 2000, Bush got a quarter of the gay vote. There's no reason why sexual preference should trump tax cuts as a voting issue, but this year, with Bush backing proposals to ban gay marriage, it might.

So what? We'll look at Florida again. Assume there were about a quarter million gay votes in Florida last time and figure President Bush got about a quarter of those votes. He did that well nationally among gays. If, in 2004, a third of these voters defect, that will result in a loss of 20,000 votes for Bush.

(on camera): Right now, the focus of these campaigns is more about rallying the base than about shifting votes. The Bush campaign wants to energize more white evangelicals. The Kerry campaign wants to close the enthusiasm deficit among African-Americans.

But if this thing really does stay this close, the winner just might be the campaign that can shift small slices of big voter groups to its side.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on the program tonight, a different way of looking at the war in Iraq, seen through the eyes of the soldiers fighting it. It's a very good piece coming up.

And the rooster is getting near. Morning papers coming with it.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In the early days of the Iraq war, the world watched as embedded reporters and U.S. troops scrambled across the desert side by side. War and those who fought it seemed that close.

As the mission shifted, the troops slipped into fuzzier focus, death tolls and casualty figures becoming the frame. For filmmaker Mike Tucker, it was important to fill in the frame. So he spent several weeks living with the 23 Battalion of the Army's 1st Armored Division and has made a remarkable documentary about them, war as seen through the soldier's eyes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL TUCKER, FILMMAKER: All of us have watched the war on the news, but I think you're seeing it with a really long lens. I wanted to get as close as I could to them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just boom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boom, boom.

TUCKER: To maybe almost stand a little bit in their shoes, feel what they're feeling, fear what they're fearing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your eyes open, because if it's anything like last night, it is going to be ugly.

TUCKER: And almost get beyond they, where I could say we.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to Gunner Palace. This palace was built after the first Gulf War for Saddam Hussein's first wife. And later, it was given to his son Uday.

TUCKER: The unit is 23 Field Artillery. And their nickname is the Gunners. They're based in Giessen, Germany. They're part of the 1st Armored Division.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was like, hey, give me 18 Whoppers. He's like, what?

TUCKER: I was more interested in these people as personalities and talking to them. I wanted to know who are these soldiers that are fighting in this war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They got us out here in Baghdad. Life is hard.

TUCKER: When I arrived, there were a lot of weapons being captured. And I would say the insurgency was just starting to rise up then, where the IED attacks were started.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clear the road. Possible IED!

TUCKER: Mortar attacks were starting. And it was becoming a very dangerous place to be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Part of our $87 billion budget provided for us to have some secondary armor to put on top of our thin-skinned Humvees. This armor was made in Iraq. It is high-quality metal. And it will probably slow down the shrapnel so that it stays in your body instead of going clean through.

TUCKER: They really were acting like everything from policemen to social workers to politicians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have come so far so fast. Please, let's not digress. I'm sure we can get the same discussion done without screaming across the table.

TUCKER: And then, at night, they would go out and raid houses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up. Coming in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three RPG launchers. You know how many years in jail that is? That's 30 years in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): I don't need...

TUCKER: Every few weeks, they'd have something called Gunnerpalooza. And one thing they did at these, they would have freestyle competitions where the soldiers would spit out freestyle raps. And so I approached some of the corps soldiers and said, if I can't interview, let's do a freestyle about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This ain't fact. It's only theory in my statements about the struggle, stress and pain every day we're facing. Trials and tribulations daily we do and not always is life's pains washed away in our (UNINTELLIGIBLE) When we take a dip, we try to stick to the script, but when those guns start blazing and our friends get hit, that's when our hearts start racing and our stomachs get woozy, because you all, this is just a show, but we're living this movie.

TUCKER: Some of the stories that they tell in the raps are more on target than any report.

When I left the first time, I thought I was done. Three, four weeks later, the first soldier in the unit, Ben Colgan, was killed. He was the best soldier in the unit. It turned out later that Ben was not just special forces, that he'd been in Delta Force.

I had hoped to somehow find an ending where I could respectfully tell what happened to him. Once I was done cutting that, I found that there was so much more to tell, I just didn't want to leave it hanging there. And then I decided to go back.

When I went back, immediately, upon arrival, you could sense that it was different. Soldiers just kind of gave off a feeling that they were exhausted. They were ready to go home. And you felt like they didn't really feel like they could do anything more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lose-lose situation we're facing, anticipation. They're hating. No need to like this, but please respect it. This is life. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all talk about how when we're going to go home, how proud we're going to be to be combat vets. How many people can say that they're combat veterans? Nineteen years old, I fought in a war.

TUCKER: These soldiers are us wearing uniforms. They come from every walk of American life. I would hope that people would listen to what they have to say and not what we think they would say, because often what they say is pretty surprising.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't care what anybody says. There's peaceful places in Iraq, but to say -- know that anybody who has been here has lived it, seen it and done it, and they've done their job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around some parts of the world. The band is pretty aggressive tonight. "The International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times." Down here, like this story. "Abuzz About the Draft. As U.S. Recalls Troops, Rumors Surge That the Draft is Going to be Reinstated." Now, that would be an interesting move in an election year, wouldn't it?

"Washington Times" leads thusly: "Zarqawi Targets Female Soldiers. Iraq Network Gets Edit to Kidnap." Haven't read the story. Rowan Scarborough wrote it, pretty good reporter, so we'll see what it has to say.

"Philadelphia Inquirer." "Two Key Pleas of Not Guilty." This is a city-wide corruption case that's gotten pretty nasty. That's how they lead.

"San Antonio Express-News" right here. "Not Wild About Wet." It has been raining in Texas I think for 18 or 19 straight days, and really raining. And so they put that on the front page. Saddam is on the front page of most of these, by the way.

"The Oregonian" down here in the corner, out in Portland, Oregon, out West. "Nader Finds Unusual Allies in Ballot Hunt." It turns out a couple of Republican-affiliated groups have been working to get Ralph Nader on the ballot in the state of Oregon because they figure he'll siphon votes away from the Democrats. Hey, it is politics. All is fair in love and politics, more or less.

The weather in Chicago tomorrow is...

(CHIMES)

BROWN: Thank you. "De-lovely."

We'll wrap it up after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, it took seven years and 800 million miles, but NASA's Cassini spacecraft has arrived. It has entered orbit around Saturn. Tomorrow, we should see pictures. They're starting to come in, not in yet, but should see them tomorrow. And I don't know this for certain, but my guess is, you're going to see rings around Saturn. But we'll know that for certain tomorrow.

And we'll be with you at 10:00 Eastern time. I hope you'll join us.

Until then, good night for all of us.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired June 30, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
Iraq hasn't produced a whole lot of feel good stories but tonight we can offer one up. No matter what you think of the war and regardless of how badly the occupation went, there is something that feels really good about seeing Saddam in the dock, accountable as few in his position ever are for a generation worth of crimes.

A very long time ago I was asked by the wisest man I've ever met if I thought Adolf Eichmann should receive the death penalty. I said then and I would say the same thing now of course not. He should live in an Israeli jail guarded by Israeli guards for the rest of his life.

Today in Iraq there is, of course, talk about executing Saddam and that is understandable but, again, if I were asked I would answer the same. Let him live out the rest of his life in a jail cell he ordered built, guarded by those who survived his madness. Death for him is too easy. Life, that life at least, would be the greater and better punishment.

The whip begins in Baghdad tonight, CNN's Christiane Amanpour with the watch, Christiane a headline.

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Saddam Hussein and 11 members of his former regime will appear in court at what they call an arraignment today. And also now the new Iraqi government, as it deals with justice for him and them, has to deal with so many of the problems over the last 15 months since he was topped.

BROWN: Christiane, we'll get back to you early tonight.

Next to Washington and potentially major changes coming for detainees in the war on terror, CNN's Bob Franken on that for us again tonight, so Bob a headline.

BOB FRANKEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, now that the Supreme Court has reminded the White House that the executive branch must answer to the judicial even in wartime the administration is discussing whether the next move will be to move detainees from Cuba to the United States.

BROWN: Bob, thank you.

And finally a new measure of the new normal down at land's end, CNN's Jeanne Meserve covering tonight, Jeanne a headline.

JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: As of tomorrow, every foreign flagship entering U.S. ports will undergo a security inspection. It's just one element of brand new domestic and international maritime security regimes but some are asking will they be observed? Will they do enough -- Aaron?

BROWN: Jeanne, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, a changing economy. For the first time in four years interest rates have started inching back up. We'll get the bottom line for you on that.

And later, a grunt's eye look at the war from the perspective of the 23 Battalion of the Army's 1st Armored Division, captured in a remarkable documentary and we'll some of the remarkable moments from it tonight.

And then, as always, the headlines tomorrow, a rooster's eye view of course, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with a quiet moment, quiet enough to hear a monster become an ordinary man, quiet enough also perhaps to make out the heartbeat of a different Iraq. That's the hope of many Iraqis, we think, even if only a few of them today managed to see their former dictator and 11 associates face for the first time Iraqi justice.

Reporting from Baghdad tonight, we begin with CNN's Brent Sadler.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRENT SADLER, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): He's been forced to take the first step on a long road to justice, no longer a prisoner of war, subject instead to Iraq's own penal code. Justice is being seen to be done in Iraqi homes once starved of uncensored news. Their former president faces a possible death penalty for 35 years of merciless rule.

This is the old Saddam, bestowing rewards on loyal acolytes, a far cry from his latest appearance where he wanted to ask questions, a request denied. His upcoming trial months away has set off passionate debate here.

Ibrahim Sahd (ph) a shopkeeper claims Saddam killed his sons and let his family starve. Ibrahim rages. "He left us with nothing but our underwear. May he be cursed in this world and the next."

But with the anonymity of radio, Iraqi opinion may not be so clear cut. A popular radio station here took a straw poll of listeners during a one-hour phone in. It concluded that while just over 45 percent supported the death sentence for Saddam, a stunning 41 percent thought he should be released.

(on camera): The legal fate of 11 of Saddam Hussein's top officials was also transferred to Iraqi control although they'll all remain locked up in an American-run jail.

(voice-over): Tariq Aziz, one of the best known faces of the old regime, was also transferred to Iraqi custody along with Ali Hassan al-Majid, known as Chemical Ali, for his alleged role in using chemical weapons said to be visibly shaking. The deposed leadership is expected to face charges of crimes against humanity, including genocide.

"Saddam deserves a slow death, slower than slow" says Ahmed Shinjah (ph), a restaurateur "in the way he made innocent people suffer." Iraqis demonstrating freedom of expression after liberation from Saddam Hussein and his handover to the new Iraqi government.

Brent Sadler, CNN, Baghdad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A quick footnote on the proceedings. Saddam and the rest will go before a judge tomorrow, an unnamed judge at an undisclosed location at a time left unsaid for all the obvious reasons.

Security will be tight to prevent either an escape attempt or a Jack Ruby scenario, if you will, from unfolding. Further down the road, the accused will be tried before a special tribunal under the observation of international legal experts. And, if it all goes smoothly, it will be something of a departure in a saga that's neither been simple nor easy almost since day one.

With that side of the story CNN's Christiane Amanpour.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Liberation brought laughter and later laughter gave way to looting and the first signs of a dangerous security vacuum. And into that vacuum a decision was made that most agree was a fundamental mistake, Paul Bremer's first major order as U.S. administrator, firing the Iraqi Army.

In a protest outside occupation headquarters, many of the fired soldiers and officers threatened to turn against the Americans and that seems to have happened. After long dismissing the insurgents as dead-enders, the U.S. is only now openly admitting their strength.

LT. GEN. DAVID PETRAEUS, U.S. ARMY: I think it is a very serious threat. These are very serious terrorists, some of them clearly from outside the country, perhaps increasingly so.

AMANPOUR: The U.S. military has not managed to crush them. Now the Iraqis will try.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI INTERIM PRIME MINISTER: We are mobilizing our police force. We definitely are mobilizing our army and make it ready to confront the enemies of Iraq and the criminals and the terrorists.

AMANPOUR: Wherever you go, people can't shake their worry, no matter how fervently they hope the handover brings peace and quiet. "Of course we're all worried about the problems and explosions" says Jaba Sabi (ph). "When we leave our homes we saw the Muslim prayer of death. We don't know what will happen to us or whether our children will be killed."

Lives, democracy, the economy, reconstruction, all held hostage by the constant violence. Those who have come to help a target and so are their Iraqi colleagues.

Hassan (ph) who translates for the U.S. Army hides his identity against a certain death sentence but he is defiant.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I want to say something to the insurgents that they will not make me scared. (Unintelligible) are working. I will never get rid of my job with the Americans until they make this place and make my country stable and secure.

AMANPOUR: But even those like Gafal Jazari (ph) sitting in his empty art gallery with no power says at least they are free to hope now. "Saddam's departure made Iraqis free of fear" he said.

But feelings are complicated. At the Baghdad Morgue, Dr. Nofil Shukuh (ph) smiles when I ask him whether it's better without Saddam. He's come here to collect his uncle's body.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I believe it is better. It is better but without America. If the Americans go out, U.S. Army go out, it's better but if they remain here it's bad and very bad.

AMANPOUR: But the U.S. Army is staying. It has to to protect the new Iraqi government that has become a target as well.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Now even as Saddam Hussein prepares his long road to justice finally, the new terror has to be dealt with, the terrorism that we've seen over the last 15 or so months and, to that end, the U.S. has launched yet another air strike on a safe house we're told in Fallujah, that no-go-zone which is believed to be the base of Abu Musab Zarqawi -- Aaron.

BROWN: Christiane, quickly, how much -- back to the Saddam appearance later today for you. How much anticipation is there in Baghdad that they will finally see him? It's been a long time since he's been seen. Are people looking forward to this moment?

AMANPOUR: Yes, they're looking forward to it. It's going to be very, very tightly controlled, as you can imagine with very few people able to take those pictures and we think a tight lid on when they'll be able to be released. But we're going to be there. We'll bring them to you just as soon as it's possible.

BROWN: We are eager to see them, curiosity if nothing else, Christiane thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Baghdad. A couple of other notes. Still no clear word tonight on Corporal Wassef Hassoun, the Marine held captive. There is, however, growing confusion about how he came to disappear.

Yesterday the military changed his classification from missing to captured having said earlier this week that he had gone on "an unauthorized absence" prior to falling into enemy hands.

"The New York Times" meanwhile is reporting that Marine corporal wanted to go home, was making his way to Lebanon when he was abducted by Islamic fighters who now threaten to behead him.

Back home tonight there are signs the Bush administration was caught unprepared by the Supreme Court's decision giving prisoners in the war on terror access to the American legal system.

The Justice Department expected to win and reportedly didn't have much of a Plan B when the rulings came down two days ago. Tonight, the strategy is coming into focus, plane tickets perhaps for hundreds of smaller fish. As for the rest, life perhaps on a modified American plan.

Here again CNN's Bob Franken.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN (voice-over): Government officials acknowledge they were just not expecting the Supreme Court to create this new reality. Now the Pentagon, Justice Department and other agencies are scrambling, forced to deal with the here and now what?

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: They are discussing these issues as we speak. They have already been under discussion since the court ruling on Monday, I believe it was, and we will have more to say soon.

FRANKEN: But now the government no longer has all the say. The Supreme Court has ruled the detainees must have a hearing and lawyers.

BARBARA OLSHANSKY, CENTER FOR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS: What we need to do is move quickly in the court to get to see our clients and to be able to, you know, move their case forward.

FRANKEN: They never have. Their clients have been separated from any outside contact at Guantanamo Bay.

DONALD RUMSFELD, DEFENSE SECRETARY: I would characterize Guantanamo Bay, Cuba as the least worst place we could have selected.

FRANKEN: That was back when the Bush administration decided Guantanamo was out of reach of the U.S. courts. Among the many ideas being batted around now is moving the detainees by the hundreds perhaps off of Cuba to a military prison or prisons in the United States, possibly located in areas where the courts are considered more conservative. Other options, use procedures that are part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, similar to the way that prisoners of war are treated. Or, establish a federal court branch at Guantanamo to process detainee claims.

JOHN ASHCROFT, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I'm not in a position to say what the range of potentials is but that we are making that assessment.

FRANKEN: But the next moves are not entirely up to the government.

MICHAEL NOONE, MILITARY LAW ANALYST: They will be subject to judicial review of individual decisions as to why a person is being detained in Guantanamo or at some third place.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

FRANKEN: For starters someone will have to devise a procedure for letting the detainees know that they have new legal rights and that could theoretically influence how long they are detainees -- Aaron.

BROWN: Bob, thank you, Bob Franken who is in Washington tonight.

More now on the repercussions. Joining us from Berkeley, California tonight is John Yoo, a former deputy assistant attorney general currently a professor at Berkeley's Boalt Hall School of Law. It's nice to have you with us tonight.

These were complicated decisions and I know you see some of the decision as actually favorable to the government and it was. Let's focus on the part that allows the hearings, that allows a neutral party to look at these cases. Why is that such a horrible thing?

JOHN YOO, BOALT HALL LAW SCHOOL: It's not that it's a horrible thing but it was a real change in the way the Supreme Court had viewed the role of the federal courts in terms of enemy aliens held outside the United States.

There had been a Supreme Court case from 1950, which seemed to say pretty clearly that the federal courts would not try to review the treatment of enemy aliens held during wartime outside the United States.

And the Supreme Court effectively this week overruled that decision and it was that decision upon which the government relied when they located the base at Guantanamo Bay.

But now that we have that process in place, the court has left a lot of these questions open. So, for example, it's not clear whether that neutral decision maker has to be a federal judge or whether it could be a military judge who would hear the case of these detainees first, create a paper record, and then send that forward to a federal judge to review. BROWN: In the piece you wrote for "The Wall Street Journal" today you I think said that these things will have to be done to satisfy an imperial judiciary. Isn't the opposite to hear an imperial presidency, a presidency where only the president or only the executive branch gets to make these decisions and no one gets to review them at all?

YOO: Well, that had been the rule in our system until this week. It's not that President Bush was the imperial presidency. It's that the Constitution gives the president, as the commander-in-chief, the discretion to decide how to run and win a war.

In this war, even more so than other wars, the treatment of detainees is an integral part of those kind of operations, so I don't think it's an imperial presidency. I think this has traditionally been within the powers of the presidency.

I think what has happened for the first time is that the courts have decided to review the treatment of prisoners held outside the United States. That's something that has never happened in our history before.

BROWN: Are you surprised then that the court at both its ideological ends, its most conservative and its most liberal, basically didn't buy the argument?

YOO: Well, this is a little different. This is on the case of the U.S. citizens, the Hamdi case and Padilla case as opposed to the Guantanamo Bay case which we've just been talking about. I have to admit that was surprising.

I was surprised to see Justice Scalia and Justice Stephens try to essentially put the government in a really hard place, which is if you want to fight a war and U.S. citizens are involved on the other side, you either have to suspend the writ of habeas corpus or try them for treason.

That hasn't been the practice in our country before. In World War II, for example, there were Nazi saboteurs who infiltrated into the United States. They were tried by military courts. Eventually a habeas corpus proceeding was held. It went all the way to the Supreme Court.

There was no suspension of habeas corpus there and there was no trial of them for treason. They were just tried for being enemy combatants who tried to commit sabotage in the United States.

BROWN: Just as briefly as you can do you think we are less safe because of these decisions?

YOO: I don't know if we're less safe but we're going to have to devote a lot more resources now than we were going to in the past to lawyers, judges and the judicial process. And the question is worth asking would those resources be better spent elsewhere in fighting the war on terrorism than on reviewing the case of enemy combatants who have been captured in the field by our military? BROWN: Professor, we look forward today talking to you. We appreciate your time tonight. Thanks a lot.

YOO: Thank you.

BROWN: John Yoo from Berkeley, California tonight.

A symbol of the old normal is changing again. Starting on the 3rd of August visitors will be permitted to see the inside of the Statue of Liberty but through a glass darkly if you will. Prior to 9/11 you could take a trip to the crown afterwards. First the island then the statue was off limits.

After August 3rd you'll only be able to enter the pedestal for a look into the statue through skylight windows and only when accompanied by a park ranger but, from where we sit, that's a whole lot better than nothing. And starting tomorrow in nearby Port Elizabeth, New Jersey and elsewhere on the waterfront big changes of the new normal as well.

Here's CNN's Jeanne Meserve.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MESERVE (voice-over): U.S. Coast Guard inspectors board a Dutch flag ship in Baltimore's harbor to check out security, are doors locked, IDs checked? Does it have an international ship security certificate?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need to have you copy that front page where it's stamped.

MESERVE: The cargo on this ship is not hazardous. It's only paper. But the captain acknowledges the world has changed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think to be honest a lot of people hope that it goes back to the old system but I think there will be no way that will be the case, you know.

MESERVE: As of July 1st, each and every foreign flag vessel entering U.S. ports will be inspected. If it does not meet security standards or, if one of its last five ports of call was out of compliance with the new international security code, the penalty is potentially harsh.

TOM RIDGE, SECRETARY OF HOMELAND SECURITY: There will be a point in time where if they do not comply we can conceivably exercise the right to ban them from the United States and that's the only way we can operate.

MESERVE: Analysts predict that most governments will say their port security is up to international standards but...

KIM PETERSON, MARITIME SECURITY COUNCIL: The reality will be something all together different and I suspect that less than half of the ports that will report as being compliant will actually have taken the measures that were expected of them by the U.N.

MESERVE: Over 95 percent of U.S. overseas trade moves through the nation's ports. Their economic importance and proximity to important infrastructure and large populations make them a potentially tempting terrorist target, so on July 1st, U.S. ports also must implement new security plans.

CAPT. CURT SPRINGER, U.S. COAST GUARD: It may have meant building a fence. It may have meant improving access controls. It may have meant installing a camera.

MESERVE: But a new report from the General Accounting Office says the Coast Guard has not yet reviewed thousands of security plans, relying instead on a system of self certification and, although the attack on the USS Cole was al Qaeda's most spectacular maritime operation, critics say these plans do not address the threat of an attack from the water.

(on camera): There is widespread agreement that maritime security is moving in the right direction. It's just not moving fast enough for everyone.

Jeanne Meserve, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: One other quick item on the subject. Jeanne is also reporting on another snafu within the Department of Homeland Security. According to the department's inspector general, DHS hasn't taken the proper steps to secure its own wireless computer networks leaving them potentially open to prying eyes. The IG's report offered five recommendations to plug the holes. The department says steps are now being taken to do just that.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, news from a city in Iraq where little news gets out and few westerners get in, a rare report from Fallujah coming up.

And the diplomats of tomorrow grappling with the problems of Iraq today, a break first.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: If the now sovereign Iraq is a newborn just home from the hospital, as we said last night, an infant that needs to grow up quickly, you could say the city of Fallujah is the bad stranger poised to snatch that child away. It is one of the hottest flashpoints in the country, the only city the U.S. military has turned over to local forces with close ties to the previous regime.

Nir Rosen is one of the very few reporters working for a western news agency who has been inside the city and quite a place it is. He wrote about it for "The New Yorker" magazine and he joins us now from Tel Aviv. It's a terrific piece. Welcome. Who is running Fallujah right now?

NIR ROSEN, CONTRIBUTOR, "THE NEW YORKER" MAGAZINE: There's sort of a coalition of former Baathists, former high-ranking officers in Saddam's army and very radical Sunni Muslims. You could call them (unintelligible) Muslims.

BROWN: And where in that mix if any -- I'm sorry. Where in that mix are the jihadists, the foreigners who have come in?

ROSEN: I wouldn't exaggerate they're all the foreigners. There is a foreign presence. They were integral to the fighting to liberate the city from the occupation but they're there in a certain neighborhood and particularly in the Jalah (ph) neighborhood.

And they're actually a bit of an inconvenience to the new leadership of the city who negotiated the cease-fire that granted them autonomy. But these foreign elements disapprove of the cease-fire. They like to continue the battle to liberate all of Iraq from the Americans.

BROWN: Was it -- do you think...

ROSEN: They're under control so far though.

BROWN: OK. Do you think it was a mistake for the Americans not to go in and clear out the problem and be done with it?

ROSEN: I think it was probably a mistake for the Americans to go in, in the first place in fact. It certainly created the myth of Fallujah throughout the Muslim world and certainly in Iraq. It united the Sunnis and Shias. There are Shia fighters alongside the Sunnis.

It was a very brutal battle. In places the city looks like Stalingrad, homes flattened up to 800, perhaps 1,000 people died most of them apparently women and children.

So, I think perhaps the entire siege of Fallujah was a very big mistake. You now have the Saudi, the Saudi group that was kidnapping foreigners in Saudi Arabia. They call themselves the Fallujah Brigade, Blue Squadron I'm sorry.

BROWN: I'm sorry, a couple more questions if we can. We've heard reports that it's become sort of Taliban-like there that a lot of things that went on in Taliban control in Afghanistan are now going on in Fallujah. Did you see that sort of thing?

ROSEN: This is definitely true. The leadership of the town, of the city is actually in a mosque. It's not the official leadership but that's the center of power and all decisions are made there. So, that in and of itself implies that you're going to have religious laws enforced and it's a very conservative town.

So, there is this sort of competition between your average guy who is very conservative and wants Islamic law imposed like in Saudi Arabia perhaps and the more radical foreigners who in their neighborhoods are imposing actual Taliban-like laws. They've banned dominoes. They've banned hairdressers. You see beards now more than you would in the past because they've banned shaving. They beat people for being publicly drunk or for selling alcohol, which is rare in the first place, so it's certainly a city where you see Islamic law being imposed.

BROWN: Mr. Rosen thanks for your time. The piece again is in "New Yorker" magazine. It is a stunning piece of work and a great look at what Fallujah is today.

ROSEN: Thank you.

BROWN: Thanks for your time.

For Iraq's new government, Fallujah and the many other challenges ahead are hardly academic concerns of course but seen through a longer lens from a greater distance, from a classroom on a U.S. college campus to be exact, the events unfolding in Iraq contain lessons in the literal sense.

From Boston tonight, CNN's Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF (voice-over): On the seventh floor at Tufts University's Fletcher School...

PROF. KATHLEEN HAMILL, TUFTS FLETCHER SCHOOL: We're going to be breaking into groups.

LOTHIAN: Professor Kathleen Hamill...

HAMILL: Does everybody have the handouts?

LOTHIAN: ...has been leading 17 graduate students, some of them aspiring diplomats in a case study on Iraq.

HAMILL: It's a great case study because, you know, there are so many unknowns.

LOTHIAN: After watching a video clip of Monday's surprise handover, students begin dissecting the details, focusing on whether the transition has any meaning, amid some cynicism.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What has changed is that the blue portfolio was handed from Bremer to the other guy.

LOTHIAN: There are deeper debates about human rights, about continued U.S. and coalition military control.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Doesn't that nullify the whole resolution?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It doesn't nullify the whole resolution.

LOTHIAN: About who controls the money.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The vast amount of the money is controlled by the U.S.

LOTHIAN: At this table, an argument in support of the U.S. and coalition's role and the transfer.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Having a legitimate government and having (unintelligible) again I think is absolutely critical.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The transfer of power is (unintelligible) symbolic.

LOTHIAN (on camera): Even though these graduate students are far removed from the official process they're nonetheless asking some of the same questions and debating some of the same issues as U.S. coalition and Iraqi officials.

(voice-over): And having some the same frustrations.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a little difficult because it's open ended, right? We don't yet know what's going to come out of it.

LOTHIAN: But most agree an important first step has been taken.

ANNE CULLEN, GRADUATE STUDENT: It's a new beginning and maybe we can move away from this violence.

LOTHIAN: A foreign policy debate in the classroom and beyond.

HAMILL: And these are students that hopefully some day will be in a position to make decisions like that.

LOTHIAN: Dan Lothian, CNN, Boston.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT tonight, I love this tease, it's something that hasn't happened since the last millennium and it's going to cost you perhaps for a long time into this one, the cost of money is going up.

And later, the American gunners who call Uday Hussein's palace home.

Around the world, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: This is a story about interest rates. We wish there was a sexier way of saying it, but, alas, there isn't. It's about interest rates.

They went up today, the Fed raising them for the first time in four years. Of course, this won't matter to most of you, unless you were thinking of buying a house or a car or perhaps a freezer. Maybe you were thinking of using your credit card or refinancing your mortgage. If you just don't plan on buying anything, well, this story isn't for you. On the other hand, here's CNN's Kathleen Hays.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATHLEEN HAYS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): An interest rate hike heard around the world, as Alan Greenspan and his colleagues at the Federal Reserve boosted the key short-term rate to 1.25 percent from 1 percent, what had been the lowest interest rate in more than 40 years. But keep this in perspective. This is still an incredibly low interest rate.

ALAN BLINDER, FORMER FEDERAL RESERVE VICE CHAIRMAN: That's still pretty cheap money to me. I think the era of cheap money, it is on its way out, but it's still here for a while.

HAYS: Greenspan and company last raised rates in the late 1990s, worried that a soaring stock market and a roaring economy were boosting inflation. Their key rate rose to 6.5 percent. But as the stock market bubble burst and thousands lost their jobs, the Fed reversed course and cut rates with a vengeance, especially after the September 11 attacks pushed the economy even deeper into recession.

The last rate cut was in June of 2003 and the Fed watched nervous nervously, hoping jobs would begin to grow again.

BLINDER: And the Fed felt that it was its duty to push the economy up out of the hole. And I think they were right in that.

HAYS: Super low interest rates caused auto sales to skyrocket. Home sales heated up. Consumers refinanced mortgages at record rates. And, aided by tax cuts, the economy started to recover.

(on camera): With signs of inflation appearing and jobs growing again, the Fed has switched gears. Now the big question on Wall Street is if it keeps hiking rates in small baby steps or gets more aggressive.

ALICE RIVLIN, FORMER FEDERAL RESERVE VICE CHAIRMAN: They are more likely, I think, although not necessarily right away, to speed up the pace of increase if the economy continues strong and if inflation continues to rise.

HAYS (voice-over): Economists agree the big challenge now is for the Fed to maintain its delicate balance, raising rates just enough to keep cheap money from overheating the economy.

Kathleen Hays, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: The stock markets rose on the news of the rate hike, investors apparently pleased rates weren't raised more than they were. But for anyone buying or selling a home, the announcement was not a welcome one.

That piece of the story from CNN's Jonathan Freed. (BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL KARNUTH, HOME BUYER: Oh, it's finished?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

KARNUTH: Yes, let's check it out.

JONATHAN FREED, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's the home they wanted. It's the home they bought. But now Michael Karnuth and his fiance aren't convinced it's a home they can afford.

KARNUTH: We know that, as rates go up, it makes it more difficult and a little bit stressful in terms of what the monthly payments are going to be.

FREED: The couple's been waiting to lock in their mortgage rate. Now they say they're kicking themselves.

CARMEN ECHEVERRIA, HOME BUYER: I wish we had made a quicker decision, but unfortunately we have to deal with what we've got now.

FREED: They're not alone. Beth Ryan is a realtor who suddenly finds herself having to push clients to make a decision.

BETH RYAN, REAL ESTATE AGENT: Seventy-five percent are hesitating, which is a huge number.

FREED: Ryan says home buyers have been spoiled with rates at 4 or 5 percent. And now...

RYAN: Some of them are just deciding, maybe I'll wait another year or I'll keep renting or maybe I haven't sold my place. Maybe I'll wait.

FREED: And they're not just waiting in real estate. This car dealership isn't used to hearing hesitation in its customers' voices either.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we're noticing some people are saying, let me just sit back and wait just to see what's going to happen.

FREED: Back at the house, as the couple continue their inspection, the news they were hoping wouldn't happen did.

(on camera): I just received word here Federal Reserve boosts key short-term interest rate by one-quarter percent. You haven't locked in yet. What's going through your mind?

KARNUTH: I'm hoping that the markets is going to react favorably to that news and the long-term rates are going to come down a little bit.

FREED: But at least initially, the mortgage markets are headed up. And Michael Karnuth admits he's probably being overly optimistic.

Jonathan Freed, CNN, Chicago.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Still to come tonight on NEWSNIGHT, too soon to tell, but not too soon to ask which voters might line up with which candidates and why, some interesting thoughts from Jeff Greenfield after the break, and the always interesting morning papers.

From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Politics now here at home. We often say and like to believe that this program is not a slave to polls, especially this far out from November. In truth, a lot of noise comes from the numbers in an election year.

So tonight, we turn down the volume some and listen instead to our senior analyst, Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): They come at you like a swarm of gnats, these poll numbers. And they seem to be saying the same thing more or less that they've been all saying for months. It's a close race. It's an evenly divided electorate. There are far fewer undecided voters than usual.

(on camera): So, instead of more numbers, let's ask a simple question, one posed to me by a voter in Georgia last week? Which groups that voted heavily for Al Gore in 2000 might be drifting toward the president this time? And which groups that went heavily for Bush in 2000 might be moving towards Senator Kerry? If we knew the answer to that question, we might know who is going to win.

(voice-over): First, there's that gender gap. Women went solidly for Gore last time, men for Bush. Right now, Kerry isn't doing as well with women as Gore did, probably because, in the wake of September 11, abstract questions of national interest have become urgent matters of personal security. But Kerry's camp thinks their man will do better among men than Gore did, why the campaign stresses his Vietnam history and why there's an ever-present veterans honor guard at his campaign stops.

But look at that Vietnam image again. There's another message in that ad to gun owners. Bush clobbered Gore among gun owners in 2000, 61 to 36. But the Kerry campaign believes he can shrink that gap. He's a hunter, as new ads will soon remind voters. And with the economy and war front and center, the gun issue may not have the power it did four years ago.

Not so fast, says the Bush team. These hunters tend to be part of a bigger group, moderate, even conservative Democrats who mostly stayed with Gore in 2000. The image of Kerry as an elitist Massachusetts liberal ought, they think, to drive some of those voters toward the president. And here is another target of opportunity for Bush. In 2000, he only got 19 percent of the Jewish vote. This year, with his unswerving support for Israel, with one of Israel's most prominent foes removed with U.S. force, that share is likely to rise. It probably won't make much of a difference in New York or California or Illinois. Those are safe Kerry states. But how about Florida?

There were about 250,000 Jewish votes cast there last time. If Bush gets 10 percent more of that Jewish vote this time, he'd pick up an additional 25,000 votes. Hispanics, too, are being courted heavily. Gore won 62 percent of the Hispanic vote. Bush forces think they may get more thanks to a culturally conservative message. But, remember, the Hispanic vote is very different state by state, Cuban- Americans in Florida heavily Republican, Mexican-Americans in Arizona much more Democratic.

And, of course, cultural conservatism can cut both ways. In 2000, Bush got a quarter of the gay vote. There's no reason why sexual preference should trump tax cuts as a voting issue, but this year, with Bush backing proposals to ban gay marriage, it might.

So what? We'll look at Florida again. Assume there were about a quarter million gay votes in Florida last time and figure President Bush got about a quarter of those votes. He did that well nationally among gays. If, in 2004, a third of these voters defect, that will result in a loss of 20,000 votes for Bush.

(on camera): Right now, the focus of these campaigns is more about rallying the base than about shifting votes. The Bush campaign wants to energize more white evangelicals. The Kerry campaign wants to close the enthusiasm deficit among African-Americans.

But if this thing really does stay this close, the winner just might be the campaign that can shift small slices of big voter groups to its side.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Ahead on the program tonight, a different way of looking at the war in Iraq, seen through the eyes of the soldiers fighting it. It's a very good piece coming up.

And the rooster is getting near. Morning papers coming with it.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In the early days of the Iraq war, the world watched as embedded reporters and U.S. troops scrambled across the desert side by side. War and those who fought it seemed that close.

As the mission shifted, the troops slipped into fuzzier focus, death tolls and casualty figures becoming the frame. For filmmaker Mike Tucker, it was important to fill in the frame. So he spent several weeks living with the 23 Battalion of the Army's 1st Armored Division and has made a remarkable documentary about them, war as seen through the soldier's eyes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL TUCKER, FILMMAKER: All of us have watched the war on the news, but I think you're seeing it with a really long lens. I wanted to get as close as I could to them.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you hear that?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What happened?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just boom.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boom, boom.

TUCKER: To maybe almost stand a little bit in their shoes, feel what they're feeling, fear what they're fearing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Keep your eyes open, because if it's anything like last night, it is going to be ugly.

TUCKER: And almost get beyond they, where I could say we.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome to Gunner Palace. This palace was built after the first Gulf War for Saddam Hussein's first wife. And later, it was given to his son Uday.

TUCKER: The unit is 23 Field Artillery. And their nickname is the Gunners. They're based in Giessen, Germany. They're part of the 1st Armored Division.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was like, hey, give me 18 Whoppers. He's like, what?

TUCKER: I was more interested in these people as personalities and talking to them. I wanted to know who are these soldiers that are fighting in this war.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They got us out here in Baghdad. Life is hard.

TUCKER: When I arrived, there were a lot of weapons being captured. And I would say the insurgency was just starting to rise up then, where the IED attacks were started.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clear the road. Possible IED!

TUCKER: Mortar attacks were starting. And it was becoming a very dangerous place to be.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Part of our $87 billion budget provided for us to have some secondary armor to put on top of our thin-skinned Humvees. This armor was made in Iraq. It is high-quality metal. And it will probably slow down the shrapnel so that it stays in your body instead of going clean through.

TUCKER: They really were acting like everything from policemen to social workers to politicians.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You have come so far so fast. Please, let's not digress. I'm sure we can get the same discussion done without screaming across the table.

TUCKER: And then, at night, they would go out and raid houses.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Coming up. Coming in.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Three RPG launchers. You know how many years in jail that is? That's 30 years in jail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing): I don't need...

TUCKER: Every few weeks, they'd have something called Gunnerpalooza. And one thing they did at these, they would have freestyle competitions where the soldiers would spit out freestyle raps. And so I approached some of the corps soldiers and said, if I can't interview, let's do a freestyle about it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This ain't fact. It's only theory in my statements about the struggle, stress and pain every day we're facing. Trials and tribulations daily we do and not always is life's pains washed away in our (UNINTELLIGIBLE) When we take a dip, we try to stick to the script, but when those guns start blazing and our friends get hit, that's when our hearts start racing and our stomachs get woozy, because you all, this is just a show, but we're living this movie.

TUCKER: Some of the stories that they tell in the raps are more on target than any report.

When I left the first time, I thought I was done. Three, four weeks later, the first soldier in the unit, Ben Colgan, was killed. He was the best soldier in the unit. It turned out later that Ben was not just special forces, that he'd been in Delta Force.

I had hoped to somehow find an ending where I could respectfully tell what happened to him. Once I was done cutting that, I found that there was so much more to tell, I just didn't want to leave it hanging there. And then I decided to go back.

When I went back, immediately, upon arrival, you could sense that it was different. Soldiers just kind of gave off a feeling that they were exhausted. They were ready to go home. And you felt like they didn't really feel like they could do anything more.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Lose-lose situation we're facing, anticipation. They're hating. No need to like this, but please respect it. This is life. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We all talk about how when we're going to go home, how proud we're going to be to be combat vets. How many people can say that they're combat veterans? Nineteen years old, I fought in a war.

TUCKER: These soldiers are us wearing uniforms. They come from every walk of American life. I would hope that people would listen to what they have to say and not what we think they would say, because often what they say is pretty surprising.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't care what anybody says. There's peaceful places in Iraq, but to say -- know that anybody who has been here has lived it, seen it and done it, and they've done their job.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Morning papers after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country and around some parts of the world. The band is pretty aggressive tonight. "The International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times." Down here, like this story. "Abuzz About the Draft. As U.S. Recalls Troops, Rumors Surge That the Draft is Going to be Reinstated." Now, that would be an interesting move in an election year, wouldn't it?

"Washington Times" leads thusly: "Zarqawi Targets Female Soldiers. Iraq Network Gets Edit to Kidnap." Haven't read the story. Rowan Scarborough wrote it, pretty good reporter, so we'll see what it has to say.

"Philadelphia Inquirer." "Two Key Pleas of Not Guilty." This is a city-wide corruption case that's gotten pretty nasty. That's how they lead.

"San Antonio Express-News" right here. "Not Wild About Wet." It has been raining in Texas I think for 18 or 19 straight days, and really raining. And so they put that on the front page. Saddam is on the front page of most of these, by the way.

"The Oregonian" down here in the corner, out in Portland, Oregon, out West. "Nader Finds Unusual Allies in Ballot Hunt." It turns out a couple of Republican-affiliated groups have been working to get Ralph Nader on the ballot in the state of Oregon because they figure he'll siphon votes away from the Democrats. Hey, it is politics. All is fair in love and politics, more or less.

The weather in Chicago tomorrow is...

(CHIMES)

BROWN: Thank you. "De-lovely."

We'll wrap it up after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Finally from us tonight, it took seven years and 800 million miles, but NASA's Cassini spacecraft has arrived. It has entered orbit around Saturn. Tomorrow, we should see pictures. They're starting to come in, not in yet, but should see them tomorrow. And I don't know this for certain, but my guess is, you're going to see rings around Saturn. But we'll know that for certain tomorrow.

And we'll be with you at 10:00 Eastern time. I hope you'll join us.

Until then, good night for all of us.

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