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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown
Najaf Militants Holed Up in Imam Ali Mosque; Bush Nominates Goss to Run CIA
Aired August 10, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
There are in truth few things I really know for certain but here are two. First, anyone who says he knows who's going to win the presidential race is kidding himself or kidding you; and second, the outcome of that race will likely be decided by things we do not yet know, events in Iraq and events in the war on terror.
One attack in the country or even on the country's interests could turn a winning candidate into a loser. One bad day in Iraq, a Beirut barracks bombing sort of day, God forbid, could do the same.
Sometime in the fall, October seems like a good bet, the number of American casualties in Iraq will reach 1,000. Compared to the 50- plus thousand deaths in Vietnam, 1,000 isn't a big number but knowing that a majority of those deaths came after the end of major combat will almost certainly have power and political impact. But who will be helped and who will be hurt? That we can't yet know.
The politics of Iraq is on the menu tonight, as is the ongoing deadly war itself, so once again the whip begins in Baghdad with CNN's John Vause, John a headline from you.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the scene is set for a showdown between U.S. and Iraqi forces and the militia loyal to the firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, both here in Baghdad, as well as the holy city of Najaf where his militia is now holed up inside the Imam Ali Mosque that is surrounded by U.S. troops and Iraqi security forces -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get to you quickly tonight.
Next, to the White House and the president's nominee to run the CIA, CNN's Elaine Quijano with the duty tonight, Elaine a headline.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, some here in Washington are voicing concern about the president's pick, Porter Goss, saying he may be too political to push through intelligence reforms but President Bush insists Goss' background here in Washington, as well as at the CIA, make him the right man for the job -- Aaron.
BROWN: Elaine, thank you.
On to Las Vegas where John King is traveling with Senator Kerry so John a headline out west.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, making the case that President Bush has mismanaged the war in Iraq and had no plan for the peace, if you can call it that, is part of Senator Kerry's message here in Nevada and other states in the west that went Republican last time but the Democrats think just might be their ticket to victory this time -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you.
And finally to Sudan and what continues to be a very difficult story to watch and we imagine to report as well. Christiane Amanpour, our Chief International Correspondent, is there again, so Christiane a headline.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, every time you turn around here misery slaps you in the face. At a feeding center for severely malnourished children we have heard that the malnutrition rate amongst the most vulnerable in this part of Darfur is 25 percent and soaring.
BROWN: Christiane, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up on the program tonight, contempt of court -- journalists who refuse to reveal anonymous sources even when faced with jail time freedom of the press or big brother justice gone too far.
And later tonight the human experience why millions are flocking to an exhibit to better understand the human body. Anatomy class was never quite this compelling.
And finally, the eggs are in the frying pan, the coffee is brewing, the presses are rolling, at the end of the hour your morning papers tonight, all that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin once again in Iraq where U.S. Marines are pressing the battle against Shiite militias ever closer to one of the holiest spots in Shia Islam. Perhaps appropriately enough the fighting and dying is taking place in a giant cemetery while the area around it has turned into a ghost town.
We have two reports tonight, first CNN's Matthew Chance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE (voice-over): The deserted streets of Najaf, for weeks a battleground, now it's beleaguered residents urged by the U.S. and their Iraqi allies to leave. There's speculation of a final push in the holy city. U.S. forces are now patrolling its outskirts in peace but the sacred center near the mosque of Imam Ali remains at war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Iraqi citizens are fed up with Sadr's militia and for some reason he chose to attack us. We're not quite sure why, what instigated this, but obviously as long as this militia is in town, even without the coalition conducting offensive operations there really is no true peace in Najaf.
CHANCE: But this is a battle the Mehdi Army loyal to the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr seems to relish. The fact it's raging around one of Shia Islam's most sacred sites is for his supporters a rallying call.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The Iraqi people received the Americans with flowers but with God's will they will now greet them with rockets, bombs and bullets.
CHANCE: Across southern and central Iraq violence has spiraled in recent days. Developments in Najaf could spell disaster.
(on camera): U.S. military officials here in Najaf insist they're sensitive to the fact that any U.S. led assault against such a holy mosque could inflame passions against them. If it were an Iraqi force that carried out any attack that might be different. But now, both for the U.S. military and the Iraqi interim government, who both want this matter brought to an end, patience is running out.
Matthew Chance, CNN, Najaf in southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Whatever happens in Najaf it won't be the end of al- Sadr's army or his supporters. The rest of the war of weapons and words will have to be waged on very dangerous ground elsewhere, Sadr City for one, not far from where CNN's John Vause joins us now, John, good morning to you.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And good evening to you, Aaron.
As Najaf goes, so too it seems does Baghdad, in particular Sadr City. We've had a situation here over the last 24 hours of this uneasy, tense situation in Sadr City. Within the last 30 minutes or so we've begun hearing the explosions again from Sadr City in that direction over there.
We've had a curfew put in place in Sadr City and all of Baghdad by al-Sadr's militia announcing that because of what they call the "genocide" in Iraq and also in Najaf they have declared a state of emergency warning all residents of Baghdad to stay indoors.
There was also a statement put out by a previously unheard of group called the Brigades of Divine Anger warning that they too will begin mortaring and attacking government buildings with rocket- propelled grenades. They also said they'll attack hotels, the Green Zone, and police stations that kind of thing.
Now, al Sadr may be encouraged in this uprising by the absence of the senior Ayatollah al-Sistani. He is a moderate Shiite cleric, the most senior Shiite cleric in Iraq. Right now he is in London seeking treatment for a heart trouble, so that could be one reason why we are seeing this uprising now. It is very tense here in Baghdad. There is the expectation that something will happen and something will happen soon -- Aaron. BROWN: Let me ask a couple of quick questions. When you talk about something happening and something happening soon, what are we talking about?
VAUSE: What we heard all day yesterday we were getting reports that al-Sadr's men were gathering near the show grounds that the Iraqi Police and the Iraqi National Guard had been given orders to go and defend police stations, go and defend government buildings and leave the heavy lifting to U.S. troops and Marines in Baghdad.
Now, they did gather but then they dispersed, so there was something going on and there is this expectation that there will be this major confrontation especially in Sadr City which is a stronghold for Muqtada al-Sadr.
BROWN: All right. Now, let's go back to this curfew question just so I understand it. This curfew order was issued by the Sadr people, is that correct?
VAUSE: This is the bizarre thing. We've had three curfews issued in Sadr City in the last 24 hours. The first one was issued by the U.S. and the Iraqi authorities here.
The second one was put out by this Brigades of Divine Anger warning people to stay indoors. And then, yesterday our time we had this curfew warning put out by members of the Mehdi Army and the third one is the one that most people observed. It was put out on Al- Jazeera. Most people went home and have stayed home since.
BROWN: I thought Al-Jazeera was shut down.
VAUSE: Their Baghdad bureau is shut down. They're still broadcasting into Iraq. They just can't report from Baghdad or from Iraq.
BROWN: John, thank you, John Vause who's in Baghdad for us tonight.
In providing the social order Iraqis say they want, such as it is, the Iraqi government has apparently fallen back on some old, bad habits, perhaps not the systemic terror of the old regime but rough stuff nevertheless.
Troops from the Oregon National Guard witnessed one such incident on Iraq's first day of sovereignty, prisoners being beaten in the courtyard of the Interior Ministry in Baghdad.
An American sniper watched it, took photos of it, radioed it in. He and he fellow soldiers went in and found dozens of prisoners bruised and starving. They also found rubber hoses, electrodes and other torture implements.
What happened next, American officers ordered the troops to withdraw. Embedded with them was Mike Francis of "The Oregonian," the newspaper in Portland, Oregon. His story ran in the Sunday edition of the paper and we're pleased to have him with us on the program tonight.
Give us a little more detail, Mike, on what they saw when they observed this abuse, which I think is a gentle term that was going on.
MIKE FRANCIS, "THE OREGONIAN": Well, as you said, a scout who was on a nearby rooftop was able to see into this compound and couldn't believe it. He saw prisoners who were bound and blindfolded sitting down, lying down, various sort of conditions but standing over them and walking around them were Iraqi guards who, in some cases, would surround a prisoner and then just strike him with a baton or stick or a rod or something like that.
BROWN: And the Americans and, again, this was a group from the Oregon National Guard, eventually moved in and eventually stopped the beatings that were going on. Do we know who told them to withdraw?
FRANCIS: That's one of the first questions I've asked and I do not know. I have -- I know it was a higher command, a general from a different camp because what had happened was they had gone in, found something like 150 prisoners in these conditions and said, "They're beginning to argue with us. They're telling us we don't belong here. What do you want us to do?"
And there was some discussion at the other end of the radio and one of the generals came back on and said, "We want you to stand down. Leave the detention facility now."
BROWN: Just to be clear that we don't get into a he-said she- said or he-said he-said here, up to this point there is simply no dispute about what's happened. The Pentagon doesn't dispute the order to stand down, correct?
FRANCIS: That's correct, yes, and the embassy has called it brutality and said it's raised it with the Iraqis. Nobody has contradicted these stories.
BROWN: Do -- what else has the Pentagon said about this? Has it washed its hands of this?
FRANCIS: To be honest that's not clear yet. One of our Senators here, Ron Wyden, has demanded that there be some sort of investigation into it, who gave the order and why and the official line I've heard from the Defense Department so far is that everybody involved did the right thing.
The Oregon National Guard certainly did by intervening and stopping the abuse but then they say because they stabilized the situation it was appropriate to pull them back out. I don't know if that was exactly the thought process that occurred on June 29th but that's what they say now.
BROWN: What did the guys, the -- well, let me ask this differently. One of the things your story on Sunday tried to get to I think is why this sort of thing happened and a couple of voices in the piece raised interesting theories, at least about why it happened, what's going on in Iraq and the degree to which the Americans have or do not have responsibility for what's going on.
FRANCIS: Well, that is the real dilemma for America and certainly on the very first day of sovereignty. The question is who was in charge and it happened to be that day that the scout saw this abuse occurring and the Americans, you know, barged in and took the upper hand and then somebody decided that it was more appropriate for the Iraqis to handle the affair. So, the question is what do you do? What power do you have when you're an American soldier?
BROWN: Some may wonder if anything has happened if there have been repercussions on the Oregon National Guard soldiers who were involved. They obviously took a stand. Perhaps there was risk in doing that, perhaps not. Has any ill befallen on them?
FRANCIS: I'm glad you asked that. No. They were instructed at some point, again from higher command, to not discuss this incident. I was embedded with them for the month of July and it took me two weeks to hear my first inkling about it.
So, people did speak at some personal risk and one person even attached his name to the account and was willing to be quoted but they definitely took a chance to talk to me but the response that's come out since the story's been published I think must reassure them.
They say they've had no repercussions from it. They have -- everybody from, you know, the Pentagon on down is saying they did the right thing, so I think they must feel more comfortable right now.
BROWN: Nice piece of reporting and nice work by the Oregon National Guard troops who saw something clearly that was wrong and did something about it. Thanks for your time tonight.
FRANCIS: My pleasure. Thanks, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, Mike Francis of "The Oregonian" out in Portland, Oregon.
Back home the president today made his choice to run the CIA. He picked Porter Goss, a Congressman from Florida, and notably the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and a former CIA service officer.
The choice played to mixed reviews, mostly along party lines, not surprising we guess so close to an election. But election or not there are serious issues for everyone in the intelligence community to deal with, so the story has many dimensions tonight.
From the White House here's CNN's Elaine Quijano.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO (voice-over): In announcing his nomination of Porter Goss to head up the Central Intelligence Agency, President Bush pointed to Goss' experience as a CIA operative in the 1960s.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He knows the CIA inside and out. He's the right man to lead this important agency at this critical moment in our nation's history.
REP. PORTER GOSS, CIA DIRECTOR NOMINEE: The essence of our intelligence capability is people and we have some wonderful Americans doing a great job.
QUIJANO: A Florida Republican Congressman, Goss has chaired the House Intelligence Committee since 1997. In choosing him, the president passed up acting CIA Director John McLaughlin who took over after George Tenet resigned. Mr. Bush's decision to try to fill the post before the election may quiet some critics who say the country needs a permanent CIA director in the terrorism fight.
But the president's Democratic rival John Kerry believes the president needs to do more, including following up on the September 11th Commission's recommendations for intelligence reform.
In a written statement, the Senator said: "This is a key position in fighting the war on terror and should not be left vacant, but the most important position is one that hasn't been created yet, national intelligence director with real control of budgets and personnel."
Both President Bush and Goss are on record as supporting the recommendation to create a national intelligence director but with Democrats concerned about his support for the president, Goss could have a tough confirmation process in the Senate. One indication of that some Democrats saying with so much at stake politics shouldn't have factored into the decision making process.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: A person should not be the director of Central Intelligence who's acted in a very political way when we're dealing with the safety of (AUDIO GAP).
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: Even before those comments, President Bush said that Porter Goss had built a reputation as a reformer -- Aaron.
BROWN: Just back to this question of the national intelligence job, the overseer job. The president has signed onto the concept but there are differences, aren't there, in what the president's view of that job is and what the 9/11 Commission's view of that job is.
QUIJANO: And even Porter Goss has a difference with the president on this, namely when it comes to budgetary authority. The president has made it clear he does not believe that the position of national intelligence director at this time should have budgetary authority.
Porter Goss would be against that saying that in effect that position needs to have that power in order to be effective. That goes along with the September 11th Commission's recommendations.
They feel very strongly that in order for a person in that position to implement the kind of reforms that are necessary, in their opinion, that that person needs to have the full authority to make those decisions on budget -- Aaron.
BROWN: Elaine, thank you, Elaine Quijano at the White House tonight.
On to the campaign itself, next month this program plans to head west to take a look at a region in transition. One stop along the road will be Las Vegas and part of the transition in the city and the State of Nevada is political and in that Nevada is not alone. Western states once voted solidly for one party and tonight, we believe, they are decidedly in play.
So, again from Las Vegas tonight, CNN's John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): In Las Vegas, the Senator with homes on Beacon Hill and Nantucket makes the case he's a better bet for the west than the president who favors cowboy boots and his Texas ranch.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And if I'm president of the United States, Nevada is not going to have a broken promise.
KING: It is gospel for both campaigns that this close election will ultimately be settled in the industrial Midwest, yet Nevada and other pockets of the west are critical Electoral College subplots.
KERRY: We are so happy to be here. Thank you.
KING: Nevada, Arizona and Colorado went Republican for president in 2000. New Mexico voted Democratic but by just 366 votes. The four states combined offer just 29 of the 270 electoral votes needed for victory but, in a close race, any one could prove decisive especially to Democrats looking to offset a bleak outlook across the deep south.
FRANK GREER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It changes the whole nature of what's required in the Electoral College if you could pick up several of those states that in the past have voted Republicans.
KING: Part of the Bush-Cheney strategy is to emphasize western roots, a vice president from Wyoming, a president from Texas who recently invited the Outdoor Life Network to the Crawford Ranch for a little fishing.
KEN KHACIGIAN, REAGAN ADVISER: You have with Bush, who has the advantage of both being a southerner and a westerner in many respects. There's a lot of identity with the -- with him and Cheney of the rugged individualism of the west.
KING: So, Senator Kerry takes time when here to share a little personal history.
KERRY: You know I'm a gun owner and I'm a hunter. I've been a hunter since I was 12 years old.
KING: A major issue in Nevada is what Democrats call a broken Bush promise to carefully review the science before supporting a nuclear waste repository in the state.
KERRY: Yucca Mountain to me is a symbol of the recklessness and arrogance with which they are willing to proceed with respect to the safety issues and concerns of the American people.
KING: Democrats also find hope in the region's dramatic demographic change, especially it's growing Latino population. Hispanics account for 15 percent of Colorado's population, 17 percent of Nevada's, 25 percent in Arizona and 41 percent in New Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: And that battle for Hispanic votes taking place on the airwaves here as well as in the campaign. There are just five states nationally where both the Kerry and the Bush campaign are airing Spanish language ads. One of them, of course, is Florida, the other four, Aaron, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico and right here in Nevada.
BROWN: Just as a sort of campaign strategy, sometimes it's not about whether you can actually win but whether you can force the other side to compete, to spend money, spend time in a region.
KING: That is the case and that is what we will see playing out in California, Washington and Oregon later this week, President Bush going there. He's behind in the polls and he's trying to make the Democrats fight even harder for those states and spend the money but here when you look at especially Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona, the Democrats have no hopes, very little hopes anyway across the south.
They believe they have to win at least two, maybe all three of those states and they think they have a distant shot at Colorado and they certainly want to make the president spend a lot of time and a lot of money there. This is a fascinating week. Senator Kerry here in these states today, yesterday and tomorrow. President Bush will be right on his heels -- Aaron.
BROWN: It seems the way it's going to go for a while. John, thank you, John King out west tonight.
KING: Thank you.
BROWN: Ahead on the program, thousands of malnourished children too weak to eat, human suffering of the worst kind. Christiane Amanpour with a report on the relief efforts such as they are in Sudan.
And later, the war in Iraq, John Kerry and President Bush face off. Will debate over the war decide the battle for the White House, a break now?
From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There are places where the phrase "from bad to worse" doesn't begin to describe things. Western Sudan is one of those places. Today, a U.N. official said violence by Arab-led militias in the region is actually increasing, forcing even more people out of their homes. More than a million had already fled and, is always the case, the youngest and the weakest are paying the heaviest price.
Reporting from Sudan tonight CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): At this emergency feeding center in western Darfur, these children weigh what an average 3-month-old would, except that they're two and three years old. Doctors from the French relief group Medecins Sans Frontieres measured their malnutrition. This little upper arm bracelet tells the story. Green is OK, yellow at risk, orange is malnourished and red is severe malnutrition.
That's the case with Hamdi Ismael (ph). He's one and a half years old and weighs only about 12 pounds. His grandmother Hadija (ph) has brought him here because he can't keep any food down. For a population on the edge like this one, a simple case of diarrhea can be a killer.
MSF has found 20 percent of the children in western Darfur are severely malnourished. That's one in every five children. Those as bad off as Hamdi don't have long to live unless they can keep fluids and formula down.
(on camera): The problem is these parents, this is in fact the grandmother, are reluctant to send them to the hospital in town because it means having to leave their other children who are here in the camp. They're worried about who will look after them. They're worried about their safety and this is all complicating the issue of trying to save lives.
(voice-over): Hadija's urgent concern this day is for her grandson Hamdi. Dr. Anwar Ahmed (ph) tells us that he's got all the signs of severe illness.
ADEEL JAFFERI, ISLAMIC RELIEF: Actually during the last weeks he's getting (UNINTELLIGIBLE) well but now I think there is something wrong with him. He is developing edema, which for us this is a bad sign.
AMANPOUR: Edema is a dangerous swelling but unless it gets worse Hamdi won't be going to the hospital. Instead, Hadija collects some special formula for him and a sack of flour for herself. She straps her grandson to her back and heads off into the blistering head. Does she think he'll survive? Inshala they say here, God willing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now there are one million people who have been dispersed from their homes and the U.N. estimates about two million in all who are entirely dependent on international humanitarian aid. There are reports the Sudanese government wants to get some of these displaced people back to their villages but they don't want to go. They say there simply isn't the security for that yet.
BROWN: Do we have -- man that is just the most heartbreaking story. Do we have any idea how many children there are there and how many of those children are severely malnourished?
AMANPOUR: Well, you can make a safe bet that of a million displaced, let's say half or a third of those are children, so hundreds of thousands of children and, of course, they are the most vulnerable. As soon as there's little to eat, the most vulnerable, the old people and the children suffer first. They have much less resistance.
As I say, the malnutrition rate in this province alone is estimated at 20 to 25 percent but the U.N., for instance, puts it even higher up in the high 30s percent. So, it's difficult and that's just in this province and it's probably the same in the rest of Darfur. It's a province the size of France. There are hundreds of thousands of children and old people at risk.
BROWN: Well, that will just break your heart, Christiane thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Sudan tonight.
Coming up on the program, the thin line between the pursuit of justice and the public's right to know and the consequences reporters face when they're caught in between.
And later, the most unique look at the human body you have ever seen. That is a tease.
And this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Twenty, 22, 23, 24 years old.
You don't have to look far or listen long to realize that America's involvement in Iraq is a powerful factor in the upcoming presidential election. Just how it will shape the outcome in November may not be a bet for smart money. We'd even venture to say it surely isn't. The issue is, however, most definitely shaping the race.
Our senior analyst tonight, Jeff Greenfield.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you all very much.
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): The president last Friday in New Hampshire.
BUSH: My opponent hasn't answered the question whether knowing what we know now he would have supported going into Iraq. That's an important question. And the American people deserve a clear yes-or-no answer.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hello, everybody.
GREENFIELD: On Monday, as he overlooked the Grand Canyon, Senator Kerry provided an answer and some questions of his own.
KERRY: Yes, I would have voted for the authority. And my question to President Bush is, why did he rush to war without a plan to win the peace? Why did he rush to war on faulty intelligence?
GREENFIELD: Which brought this semi-heartfelt thank you from the president today in Florida.
BUSH: My opponent has found a new nuance. Knowing everything we know today, he would have voted to go into Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein from power. I want to thank Senator Kerry for clearing that up.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GREENFIELD (on camera): Why this back-and-forth in the dog days of summer? Because the answers to these questions -- "Why did you do what you did, Mr. President? -- "What would you do differently, Senator?" -- the answers may determine the outcome of the election. What's more, some of the tough criticism these candidates are getting is coming, in fact, from their own side.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.
GREENFIELD (voice-over): That assertion is now a matter of considerable doubt, doubt that's been heard from Republicans like Chuck Hagel and from some media voices that backed the war, like "The New Republic."
Some Iraqis may see the U.S. as liberators, but the insurgency has been more widespread and more deadly than predicted. And the cost of the war, which was supposed to have been funded largely by Iraq's oil revenues, is now crossing the $200 billion mark. Senator McCain, who was campaigning with the president today, has sharply criticized the postwar planning, or lack of it.
Retired Marine Commandant Anthony Zinni has said the entire civilian leadership in the Defense Department, including Secretary Rumsfeld, should be removed. And the president, who ran far stronger than Kerry on the question of handling Iraq last March, is now running no better than even.
KERRY: I know what we have to do in Iraq.
GREENFIELD: But all Kerry said in Boston was that America needed a president to bring allies to our side. And when it comes to the idea of winning allies before the war, there's this: How could Russia and France, with deep economic ties to Saddam's Iraq, ever have been persuaded to join that war? It is at best an open question.
And then there is this assertion, which the Bush campaign promptly turned into a campaign ad.
KERRY: I actually did vote for the $87 billion, before I voted against it.
GREENFIELD: Senator Joseph Biden himself, who sponsored the amendment Kerry supported, told "The New Yorker" he begged Kerry to vote for the funding anyway and says Kerry's vote was a gesture to the anti-war wing of the Democratic Party, symbolized by Howard Dean's candidacy. Wisconsin Democrat Russ Feingold says Kerry was wrong to vote for the use of force and was also wrong to vote against the $87 billion.
More than anything else, it is this vote that has fueled the charge that Kerry is a flip-flopper, that he changes his views for political reasons. Kerry does worse on this question in polls than on any other.
(on camera): It's often been said that events in Iraq will determine the public's ultimate judgment about the war. Well, one unhappy, but all too likely event is that sometime between now and November, the 1,000th American soldier will die in combat in Iraq. And that event may well speak louder than anything else.
Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: One other item before we go to break here, a federal indictment raising a chill. The accused, Kamran Shaikh, is charged with violating the immigration law and lying to authorities. But of greater concern, he was arrested while videotaping the headquarters of NationsBank in Charlotte, North Carolina. Investigators also believe he made videos of the transit systems in Atlanta and Houston, as well as a large dam in Austin, Texas.
Still to come on the program tonight, the spy, the leak, the investigator and the reporters now facing jail time, a tangled web indeed, new normal or not.
And later, something to crow about, at least around here, morning papers.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: CIA operative Valerie Plame became news just over a year ago when syndicated columnist and CNN analyst Robert Novak revealed her identity. Prosecutors are trying to find the leakers and a grand jury must decide if it was a crime. It seems clear the story was planted with a number of reporters.
And, tonight, a reporter from "TIME" magazine, owned by our parent company, we note, is facing jail time for refusing to reveal his sources on the story. The case may be the most significant clash between federal prosecutors and the press in 30 years. So, not surprisingly, Floyd Abrams is involved. He represents the "TIME" reporter, Matthew Cooper, and the magazine. And he's with us here in New York. In Washington, we're joined by Bruce Fein, an expert on constitutional law, a former associate deputy attorney general. And we're pleased to see them both.
Mr. Abrams, what federal law is it that allows a reporter to withhold his testimony from a grand jury?
FLOYD ABRAMS, FIRST AMENDMENT ATTORNEY: Well, it's called the First Amendment. And our position is that, under the First Amendment of the Constitution, reporters have a right not to reveal their sources, because that's a part of news gathering, without which it would be impossible to find the news which they present to the public.
BROWN: That's the position you're staking. Is that position settled law?
ABRAMS: No. It is unsettled law, in fact.
The Supreme Court has only passed on this once, in 1972. And for the 30-plus years after that, courts have generally held, but not always, that there is some sort of balancing test which has to be applied before journalists can be required to reveal their sources, basically, that the prosecutor has to really need it and to have looked everywhere except the journalist to find it.
But some courts have said no. In the grand jury context, some courts have said there's no protection at all. And that's what this case is about. Is there legal protection or not for the press in this context?
BROWN: Mr. Fein, it's just an argument here -- would you argue that there's no protection ever or that there is protection sometimes depending on the fact set? Which would you argue?
BRUCE FEIN, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW EXPERT: Well, the Supreme Court was quite clear in the Branzburg case that, unless there's purposeful harassment or an attempt to intimidate, there is never an exception for the obligation for a newsman, like any other citizen, to testify before a grand jury.
And that holding has been undisturbed for more than 40 years. I also think that Mr. Abrams' argument that without a privilege under the First Amendment or otherwise that investigations would dry up are simply counterfactual. I came to Washington, D.C. in 1973 at the height of Watergate, just a year after the Branzburg decision.
And Woodward and Bernstein were revealing Watergate information every day.
BROWN: Yes, but not sources.
FEIN: We still don't know who Deep Throat is. And they had sources and those sources were forthcoming, even though there was no First Amendment right to anonymity. (CROSSTALK)
FEIN: And Mr. Abrams as well knows that he represented Nina Totenberg, Tim Phelps with regard to the leaking of the Anita Hill affidavit. They were not -- they were told they could go ahead and leave. Because the press was sufficiently powerful, the Senate wouldn't inquire further.
I don't think that there's any showing that, in the states that have newsmen's privilege statutes, as opposed to the Constitution, there's any more thorough investigation than in states that don't have such statutes like Virginia.
BROWN: Let me stop you for a second. We get a lot of stuff in here and let me get Mr. Abrams' response to some of it.
ABRAMS: I think the reality is that since that case that Bruce Fein is referring to, the 1972 case, the courts have gone in a lot of directions. More courts than not have basically said journalists do have protection.
Now, I know Bruce thinks that's wrong and some judges think that's wrong, but more courts than not have said that. And so journalists have lived by it. So we've lived for three decades under a regime of law which has provided a good deal of protection, and journalists have behaved as if they had the protection.
(CROSSTALK)
FEIN: Well, I think Mr. Abrams, I think that's accurate outside grand jury investigations. But if you look at grand jury investigations, the court record is not mixed. In civil cases, you're correct. And even in some pretrial criminal proceedings, you're correct. But this is grand jury.
(CROSSTALK)
FEIN: Moreover, it's a little bit odd here for the press to invoke the First Amendment and the public's right to know, because what the public has a right to know is whether there was a government official who committed a criminal act and endangered intelligence agencies and their sources all across the globe.
ABRAMS: Well, there's something else, Bruce. Bruce, stop.
(CROSSTALK)
FEIN: You would think that the press, trumpeting the right to know, should come forth with the information.
BROWN: Different argument, different night.
ABRAMS: Bruce, the other thing the public has a right to know is what "TIME" published and what Matt Cooper, my client, wrote, is that there were a lot of leaks coming out of the administration designed to condemn Ambassador Wilson, who had written a very hostile op-ed piece in "The New York Times."
And the thrust of "TIME"'s piece was, gee, isn't it interesting that the administration is leaking all this bad stuff about this guy? Now, that's something that the public, on any theory, has a right to know.
(CROSSTALK)
FEIN: But it is even more important that the public know whether there was a crime committed.
BROWN: Stop.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Finish this up.
ABRAMS: Yes, this is also a very unlikely crime, as you know. The chances of a real indictment here, the chances anyone is going to go to jail other than a journalist is pretty slight. And that is one of the sad things about this.
We're spending so much time, so much money focusing on who leaked information, that we're staying away from things which really matter.
BROWN: Mr. Abrams, good to see you, sir.
ABRAMS: Good to see you.
BROWN: And, Mr. Fein, it's good to see you. You two have done this before.
ABRAMS: So we have.
BROWN: And I suspect you will again. And you're welcome to do it here. Thank you both very much.
FEIN: Thank you.
BROWN: Ahead on the program, a look into the human body and our disturbing yet fascinating inner beauty. And there's always beauty in tomorrow's headlines, more or less.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the 1966 movie "The Fantastic Voyage," a surgical team is miniaturized and inserted into a dying man. While trying to destroy a blood clot deep in his brain, they are menaced by enormous white blood cells and have to ride a wild white water of the heart.
The movie was billed as the most fantastic, spectacular and terrifying journey of their lives, the tiny surgeons' lives that is. The same might be said of an extraordinary international exhibit now on display in Los Angeles. It reveals what few of us ever see. Around the world, 15 million people have seen it so far. For some, seeing it for the first time, the images may be difficult.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's the heart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see the heart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at the lung.
JEFF RUDOLPH, PRESIDENT & CEO, CALIFORNIA SCIENCE CENTER: Body World is an exhibit of 25 whole human bodies and a number of different organs and parts that show an incredible look at human physiology and anatomy, helping us understand our own bodies, how they function and what can go wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this guy's lung. This is why you guys shouldn't smoke.
RUDOLPH: These are all real human bodies and specimens from people who during their lifetimes gave their bodies for public medical education. It gives us a chance to look at ourselves in a way that maybe medical professionals have an opportunity chance to see, but the lay public never gets a chance to see.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is this, the liver? Liver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. God, it is big.
DR. GUNTHER VON HAGENS, INVENTOR OF PLASTINATION: And the people here at Body World, they believe it is some things they saw in films, blending anatomy with crime, with horror. But Body World is something different. It is the beauty beneath our skin frozen in time. It is a natural art. God has given me the power to preserve what he has done in such beauty.
RUDOLPH: The process of plastination is one which essentially replaces the water and fluids in our body with plastics. And since most of our body is made up of fluid, that results in a specimen that's largely plastic and is preserved forever, essentially.
VON HAGENS: There are people, actually, they recognize themselves in the specimen. And this actually brings life into this exhibition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All those faces that you make when you go like this...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're moving your muscles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are all your muscles. And you've got tons of muscles around your face.
RUDOLPH: Basically, each one is presented to show something different. They range from a basketball player that looks at the musculature and how the body's muscles and skeletal system work when we're in action, to a chess player who is bending over a chess board. And you see the brain and the spinal cord and the nervous system emanating from the spinal cord to the family where there's a father, mother and child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looks like an infant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looks like he's younger than you.
RUDOLPH: And you are looking at the arterial system and the circulatory system of all of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that's all blood?
RUDOLPH: Through a series of showcases that show the individual organs, you can see all the different parts of our body and how they function in a healthy body and how things can go wrong.
VON HAGENS: For me as a physician, it is especially important to avoid disease, to make the people know, if you smoke, your lung will look like that. If you drink too much, your liver will show those signs, to change the lifestyle and learn from the corpse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That will get you healthy real quick.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That will get you thinking.
VON HAGENS: The main message of this Body World exhibition is to create the power to live a better and more -- longer life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country, around the world. So many papers, so little time tonight.
"International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times." "Positive on Growth, Fed Raises Interest Rates." We mentioned that. We talked earlier about the fighting in Najaf. "U.S. Presses Fight with Iraqi Militia. Military Urges Guerrillas to End Battle." Do they ever actually do that?
But up here, this is the story that caught my eye. I have no idea what this story is about, but the headline is a grabber. "Dining in Hitler's Shadow." Yikes.
"The Philadelphia Inquirer" leads with Trump. "A Troubled Empire, Trump Gambled on Junk Bonds and Lost." His hotels and casinos in Atlantic city not far from Philadelphia. That's why it's a big front-page story. What else? Oh, I like this story, too. I need to read it now. "The Doctor Will See You Today. A Growing Movement Gets People Into the Office in a More Timely Fashion." It seems like a reasonable thing to do. "The Washington Times" leads thusly: "Al Qaeda Plans Major Assassination. Bin Laden Will Signal Attacks, Officials Disclose," a story by Bill Gertz of "The Washington Times." He comes up with a lot of good stuff.
"The Des Moines Register." "Heading Out to the F-F-Fair," it says. I didn't just stammer there. That's what it says. "Take a Jacket. Mercury Unlikely to Hit 80 This Week." Well, 75 is a perfectly nice temperature in Des Moines."
Speaking of temperature, the weather tomorrow in Chicago is AWOL. That doesn't sound good, does it?
We'll wrap it up in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Good to have you with us tonight.
"AMERICAN MORNING," 7:00 Eastern time. You'll want to join the gang for that. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for most of you coming up next.
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com
Aired August 10, 2004 - 22:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
There are in truth few things I really know for certain but here are two. First, anyone who says he knows who's going to win the presidential race is kidding himself or kidding you; and second, the outcome of that race will likely be decided by things we do not yet know, events in Iraq and events in the war on terror.
One attack in the country or even on the country's interests could turn a winning candidate into a loser. One bad day in Iraq, a Beirut barracks bombing sort of day, God forbid, could do the same.
Sometime in the fall, October seems like a good bet, the number of American casualties in Iraq will reach 1,000. Compared to the 50- plus thousand deaths in Vietnam, 1,000 isn't a big number but knowing that a majority of those deaths came after the end of major combat will almost certainly have power and political impact. But who will be helped and who will be hurt? That we can't yet know.
The politics of Iraq is on the menu tonight, as is the ongoing deadly war itself, so once again the whip begins in Baghdad with CNN's John Vause, John a headline from you.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, the scene is set for a showdown between U.S. and Iraqi forces and the militia loyal to the firebrand cleric Muqtada al-Sadr, both here in Baghdad, as well as the holy city of Najaf where his militia is now holed up inside the Imam Ali Mosque that is surrounded by U.S. troops and Iraqi security forces -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get to you quickly tonight.
Next, to the White House and the president's nominee to run the CIA, CNN's Elaine Quijano with the duty tonight, Elaine a headline.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, some here in Washington are voicing concern about the president's pick, Porter Goss, saying he may be too political to push through intelligence reforms but President Bush insists Goss' background here in Washington, as well as at the CIA, make him the right man for the job -- Aaron.
BROWN: Elaine, thank you.
On to Las Vegas where John King is traveling with Senator Kerry so John a headline out west.
JOHN KING, CNN SR. WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, making the case that President Bush has mismanaged the war in Iraq and had no plan for the peace, if you can call it that, is part of Senator Kerry's message here in Nevada and other states in the west that went Republican last time but the Democrats think just might be their ticket to victory this time -- Aaron.
BROWN: John, thank you.
And finally to Sudan and what continues to be a very difficult story to watch and we imagine to report as well. Christiane Amanpour, our Chief International Correspondent, is there again, so Christiane a headline.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, every time you turn around here misery slaps you in the face. At a feeding center for severely malnourished children we have heard that the malnutrition rate amongst the most vulnerable in this part of Darfur is 25 percent and soaring.
BROWN: Christiane, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.
Also coming up on the program tonight, contempt of court -- journalists who refuse to reveal anonymous sources even when faced with jail time freedom of the press or big brother justice gone too far.
And later tonight the human experience why millions are flocking to an exhibit to better understand the human body. Anatomy class was never quite this compelling.
And finally, the eggs are in the frying pan, the coffee is brewing, the presses are rolling, at the end of the hour your morning papers tonight, all that and more in the hour ahead.
We begin once again in Iraq where U.S. Marines are pressing the battle against Shiite militias ever closer to one of the holiest spots in Shia Islam. Perhaps appropriately enough the fighting and dying is taking place in a giant cemetery while the area around it has turned into a ghost town.
We have two reports tonight, first CNN's Matthew Chance.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CHANCE (voice-over): The deserted streets of Najaf, for weeks a battleground, now it's beleaguered residents urged by the U.S. and their Iraqi allies to leave. There's speculation of a final push in the holy city. U.S. forces are now patrolling its outskirts in peace but the sacred center near the mosque of Imam Ali remains at war.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Iraqi citizens are fed up with Sadr's militia and for some reason he chose to attack us. We're not quite sure why, what instigated this, but obviously as long as this militia is in town, even without the coalition conducting offensive operations there really is no true peace in Najaf.
CHANCE: But this is a battle the Mehdi Army loyal to the radical cleric Muqtada al-Sadr seems to relish. The fact it's raging around one of Shia Islam's most sacred sites is for his supporters a rallying call.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The Iraqi people received the Americans with flowers but with God's will they will now greet them with rockets, bombs and bullets.
CHANCE: Across southern and central Iraq violence has spiraled in recent days. Developments in Najaf could spell disaster.
(on camera): U.S. military officials here in Najaf insist they're sensitive to the fact that any U.S. led assault against such a holy mosque could inflame passions against them. If it were an Iraqi force that carried out any attack that might be different. But now, both for the U.S. military and the Iraqi interim government, who both want this matter brought to an end, patience is running out.
Matthew Chance, CNN, Najaf in southern Iraq.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Whatever happens in Najaf it won't be the end of al- Sadr's army or his supporters. The rest of the war of weapons and words will have to be waged on very dangerous ground elsewhere, Sadr City for one, not far from where CNN's John Vause joins us now, John, good morning to you.
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And good evening to you, Aaron.
As Najaf goes, so too it seems does Baghdad, in particular Sadr City. We've had a situation here over the last 24 hours of this uneasy, tense situation in Sadr City. Within the last 30 minutes or so we've begun hearing the explosions again from Sadr City in that direction over there.
We've had a curfew put in place in Sadr City and all of Baghdad by al-Sadr's militia announcing that because of what they call the "genocide" in Iraq and also in Najaf they have declared a state of emergency warning all residents of Baghdad to stay indoors.
There was also a statement put out by a previously unheard of group called the Brigades of Divine Anger warning that they too will begin mortaring and attacking government buildings with rocket- propelled grenades. They also said they'll attack hotels, the Green Zone, and police stations that kind of thing.
Now, al Sadr may be encouraged in this uprising by the absence of the senior Ayatollah al-Sistani. He is a moderate Shiite cleric, the most senior Shiite cleric in Iraq. Right now he is in London seeking treatment for a heart trouble, so that could be one reason why we are seeing this uprising now. It is very tense here in Baghdad. There is the expectation that something will happen and something will happen soon -- Aaron. BROWN: Let me ask a couple of quick questions. When you talk about something happening and something happening soon, what are we talking about?
VAUSE: What we heard all day yesterday we were getting reports that al-Sadr's men were gathering near the show grounds that the Iraqi Police and the Iraqi National Guard had been given orders to go and defend police stations, go and defend government buildings and leave the heavy lifting to U.S. troops and Marines in Baghdad.
Now, they did gather but then they dispersed, so there was something going on and there is this expectation that there will be this major confrontation especially in Sadr City which is a stronghold for Muqtada al-Sadr.
BROWN: All right. Now, let's go back to this curfew question just so I understand it. This curfew order was issued by the Sadr people, is that correct?
VAUSE: This is the bizarre thing. We've had three curfews issued in Sadr City in the last 24 hours. The first one was issued by the U.S. and the Iraqi authorities here.
The second one was put out by this Brigades of Divine Anger warning people to stay indoors. And then, yesterday our time we had this curfew warning put out by members of the Mehdi Army and the third one is the one that most people observed. It was put out on Al- Jazeera. Most people went home and have stayed home since.
BROWN: I thought Al-Jazeera was shut down.
VAUSE: Their Baghdad bureau is shut down. They're still broadcasting into Iraq. They just can't report from Baghdad or from Iraq.
BROWN: John, thank you, John Vause who's in Baghdad for us tonight.
In providing the social order Iraqis say they want, such as it is, the Iraqi government has apparently fallen back on some old, bad habits, perhaps not the systemic terror of the old regime but rough stuff nevertheless.
Troops from the Oregon National Guard witnessed one such incident on Iraq's first day of sovereignty, prisoners being beaten in the courtyard of the Interior Ministry in Baghdad.
An American sniper watched it, took photos of it, radioed it in. He and he fellow soldiers went in and found dozens of prisoners bruised and starving. They also found rubber hoses, electrodes and other torture implements.
What happened next, American officers ordered the troops to withdraw. Embedded with them was Mike Francis of "The Oregonian," the newspaper in Portland, Oregon. His story ran in the Sunday edition of the paper and we're pleased to have him with us on the program tonight.
Give us a little more detail, Mike, on what they saw when they observed this abuse, which I think is a gentle term that was going on.
MIKE FRANCIS, "THE OREGONIAN": Well, as you said, a scout who was on a nearby rooftop was able to see into this compound and couldn't believe it. He saw prisoners who were bound and blindfolded sitting down, lying down, various sort of conditions but standing over them and walking around them were Iraqi guards who, in some cases, would surround a prisoner and then just strike him with a baton or stick or a rod or something like that.
BROWN: And the Americans and, again, this was a group from the Oregon National Guard, eventually moved in and eventually stopped the beatings that were going on. Do we know who told them to withdraw?
FRANCIS: That's one of the first questions I've asked and I do not know. I have -- I know it was a higher command, a general from a different camp because what had happened was they had gone in, found something like 150 prisoners in these conditions and said, "They're beginning to argue with us. They're telling us we don't belong here. What do you want us to do?"
And there was some discussion at the other end of the radio and one of the generals came back on and said, "We want you to stand down. Leave the detention facility now."
BROWN: Just to be clear that we don't get into a he-said she- said or he-said he-said here, up to this point there is simply no dispute about what's happened. The Pentagon doesn't dispute the order to stand down, correct?
FRANCIS: That's correct, yes, and the embassy has called it brutality and said it's raised it with the Iraqis. Nobody has contradicted these stories.
BROWN: Do -- what else has the Pentagon said about this? Has it washed its hands of this?
FRANCIS: To be honest that's not clear yet. One of our Senators here, Ron Wyden, has demanded that there be some sort of investigation into it, who gave the order and why and the official line I've heard from the Defense Department so far is that everybody involved did the right thing.
The Oregon National Guard certainly did by intervening and stopping the abuse but then they say because they stabilized the situation it was appropriate to pull them back out. I don't know if that was exactly the thought process that occurred on June 29th but that's what they say now.
BROWN: What did the guys, the -- well, let me ask this differently. One of the things your story on Sunday tried to get to I think is why this sort of thing happened and a couple of voices in the piece raised interesting theories, at least about why it happened, what's going on in Iraq and the degree to which the Americans have or do not have responsibility for what's going on.
FRANCIS: Well, that is the real dilemma for America and certainly on the very first day of sovereignty. The question is who was in charge and it happened to be that day that the scout saw this abuse occurring and the Americans, you know, barged in and took the upper hand and then somebody decided that it was more appropriate for the Iraqis to handle the affair. So, the question is what do you do? What power do you have when you're an American soldier?
BROWN: Some may wonder if anything has happened if there have been repercussions on the Oregon National Guard soldiers who were involved. They obviously took a stand. Perhaps there was risk in doing that, perhaps not. Has any ill befallen on them?
FRANCIS: I'm glad you asked that. No. They were instructed at some point, again from higher command, to not discuss this incident. I was embedded with them for the month of July and it took me two weeks to hear my first inkling about it.
So, people did speak at some personal risk and one person even attached his name to the account and was willing to be quoted but they definitely took a chance to talk to me but the response that's come out since the story's been published I think must reassure them.
They say they've had no repercussions from it. They have -- everybody from, you know, the Pentagon on down is saying they did the right thing, so I think they must feel more comfortable right now.
BROWN: Nice piece of reporting and nice work by the Oregon National Guard troops who saw something clearly that was wrong and did something about it. Thanks for your time tonight.
FRANCIS: My pleasure. Thanks, Aaron.
BROWN: Thank you, Mike Francis of "The Oregonian" out in Portland, Oregon.
Back home the president today made his choice to run the CIA. He picked Porter Goss, a Congressman from Florida, and notably the chairman of the House Intelligence Committee and a former CIA service officer.
The choice played to mixed reviews, mostly along party lines, not surprising we guess so close to an election. But election or not there are serious issues for everyone in the intelligence community to deal with, so the story has many dimensions tonight.
From the White House here's CNN's Elaine Quijano.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO (voice-over): In announcing his nomination of Porter Goss to head up the Central Intelligence Agency, President Bush pointed to Goss' experience as a CIA operative in the 1960s.
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: He knows the CIA inside and out. He's the right man to lead this important agency at this critical moment in our nation's history.
REP. PORTER GOSS, CIA DIRECTOR NOMINEE: The essence of our intelligence capability is people and we have some wonderful Americans doing a great job.
QUIJANO: A Florida Republican Congressman, Goss has chaired the House Intelligence Committee since 1997. In choosing him, the president passed up acting CIA Director John McLaughlin who took over after George Tenet resigned. Mr. Bush's decision to try to fill the post before the election may quiet some critics who say the country needs a permanent CIA director in the terrorism fight.
But the president's Democratic rival John Kerry believes the president needs to do more, including following up on the September 11th Commission's recommendations for intelligence reform.
In a written statement, the Senator said: "This is a key position in fighting the war on terror and should not be left vacant, but the most important position is one that hasn't been created yet, national intelligence director with real control of budgets and personnel."
Both President Bush and Goss are on record as supporting the recommendation to create a national intelligence director but with Democrats concerned about his support for the president, Goss could have a tough confirmation process in the Senate. One indication of that some Democrats saying with so much at stake politics shouldn't have factored into the decision making process.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D), MINORITY LEADER: A person should not be the director of Central Intelligence who's acted in a very political way when we're dealing with the safety of (AUDIO GAP).
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: Even before those comments, President Bush said that Porter Goss had built a reputation as a reformer -- Aaron.
BROWN: Just back to this question of the national intelligence job, the overseer job. The president has signed onto the concept but there are differences, aren't there, in what the president's view of that job is and what the 9/11 Commission's view of that job is.
QUIJANO: And even Porter Goss has a difference with the president on this, namely when it comes to budgetary authority. The president has made it clear he does not believe that the position of national intelligence director at this time should have budgetary authority.
Porter Goss would be against that saying that in effect that position needs to have that power in order to be effective. That goes along with the September 11th Commission's recommendations.
They feel very strongly that in order for a person in that position to implement the kind of reforms that are necessary, in their opinion, that that person needs to have the full authority to make those decisions on budget -- Aaron.
BROWN: Elaine, thank you, Elaine Quijano at the White House tonight.
On to the campaign itself, next month this program plans to head west to take a look at a region in transition. One stop along the road will be Las Vegas and part of the transition in the city and the State of Nevada is political and in that Nevada is not alone. Western states once voted solidly for one party and tonight, we believe, they are decidedly in play.
So, again from Las Vegas tonight, CNN's John King.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KING (voice-over): In Las Vegas, the Senator with homes on Beacon Hill and Nantucket makes the case he's a better bet for the west than the president who favors cowboy boots and his Texas ranch.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And if I'm president of the United States, Nevada is not going to have a broken promise.
KING: It is gospel for both campaigns that this close election will ultimately be settled in the industrial Midwest, yet Nevada and other pockets of the west are critical Electoral College subplots.
KERRY: We are so happy to be here. Thank you.
KING: Nevada, Arizona and Colorado went Republican for president in 2000. New Mexico voted Democratic but by just 366 votes. The four states combined offer just 29 of the 270 electoral votes needed for victory but, in a close race, any one could prove decisive especially to Democrats looking to offset a bleak outlook across the deep south.
FRANK GREER, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: It changes the whole nature of what's required in the Electoral College if you could pick up several of those states that in the past have voted Republicans.
KING: Part of the Bush-Cheney strategy is to emphasize western roots, a vice president from Wyoming, a president from Texas who recently invited the Outdoor Life Network to the Crawford Ranch for a little fishing.
KEN KHACIGIAN, REAGAN ADVISER: You have with Bush, who has the advantage of both being a southerner and a westerner in many respects. There's a lot of identity with the -- with him and Cheney of the rugged individualism of the west.
KING: So, Senator Kerry takes time when here to share a little personal history.
KERRY: You know I'm a gun owner and I'm a hunter. I've been a hunter since I was 12 years old.
KING: A major issue in Nevada is what Democrats call a broken Bush promise to carefully review the science before supporting a nuclear waste repository in the state.
KERRY: Yucca Mountain to me is a symbol of the recklessness and arrogance with which they are willing to proceed with respect to the safety issues and concerns of the American people.
KING: Democrats also find hope in the region's dramatic demographic change, especially it's growing Latino population. Hispanics account for 15 percent of Colorado's population, 17 percent of Nevada's, 25 percent in Arizona and 41 percent in New Mexico.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KING: And that battle for Hispanic votes taking place on the airwaves here as well as in the campaign. There are just five states nationally where both the Kerry and the Bush campaign are airing Spanish language ads. One of them, of course, is Florida, the other four, Aaron, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico and right here in Nevada.
BROWN: Just as a sort of campaign strategy, sometimes it's not about whether you can actually win but whether you can force the other side to compete, to spend money, spend time in a region.
KING: That is the case and that is what we will see playing out in California, Washington and Oregon later this week, President Bush going there. He's behind in the polls and he's trying to make the Democrats fight even harder for those states and spend the money but here when you look at especially Nevada, New Mexico and Arizona, the Democrats have no hopes, very little hopes anyway across the south.
They believe they have to win at least two, maybe all three of those states and they think they have a distant shot at Colorado and they certainly want to make the president spend a lot of time and a lot of money there. This is a fascinating week. Senator Kerry here in these states today, yesterday and tomorrow. President Bush will be right on his heels -- Aaron.
BROWN: It seems the way it's going to go for a while. John, thank you, John King out west tonight.
KING: Thank you.
BROWN: Ahead on the program, thousands of malnourished children too weak to eat, human suffering of the worst kind. Christiane Amanpour with a report on the relief efforts such as they are in Sudan.
And later, the war in Iraq, John Kerry and President Bush face off. Will debate over the war decide the battle for the White House, a break now?
From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: There are places where the phrase "from bad to worse" doesn't begin to describe things. Western Sudan is one of those places. Today, a U.N. official said violence by Arab-led militias in the region is actually increasing, forcing even more people out of their homes. More than a million had already fled and, is always the case, the youngest and the weakest are paying the heaviest price.
Reporting from Sudan tonight CNN's Christiane Amanpour.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): At this emergency feeding center in western Darfur, these children weigh what an average 3-month-old would, except that they're two and three years old. Doctors from the French relief group Medecins Sans Frontieres measured their malnutrition. This little upper arm bracelet tells the story. Green is OK, yellow at risk, orange is malnourished and red is severe malnutrition.
That's the case with Hamdi Ismael (ph). He's one and a half years old and weighs only about 12 pounds. His grandmother Hadija (ph) has brought him here because he can't keep any food down. For a population on the edge like this one, a simple case of diarrhea can be a killer.
MSF has found 20 percent of the children in western Darfur are severely malnourished. That's one in every five children. Those as bad off as Hamdi don't have long to live unless they can keep fluids and formula down.
(on camera): The problem is these parents, this is in fact the grandmother, are reluctant to send them to the hospital in town because it means having to leave their other children who are here in the camp. They're worried about who will look after them. They're worried about their safety and this is all complicating the issue of trying to save lives.
(voice-over): Hadija's urgent concern this day is for her grandson Hamdi. Dr. Anwar Ahmed (ph) tells us that he's got all the signs of severe illness.
ADEEL JAFFERI, ISLAMIC RELIEF: Actually during the last weeks he's getting (UNINTELLIGIBLE) well but now I think there is something wrong with him. He is developing edema, which for us this is a bad sign.
AMANPOUR: Edema is a dangerous swelling but unless it gets worse Hamdi won't be going to the hospital. Instead, Hadija collects some special formula for him and a sack of flour for herself. She straps her grandson to her back and heads off into the blistering head. Does she think he'll survive? Inshala they say here, God willing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Now there are one million people who have been dispersed from their homes and the U.N. estimates about two million in all who are entirely dependent on international humanitarian aid. There are reports the Sudanese government wants to get some of these displaced people back to their villages but they don't want to go. They say there simply isn't the security for that yet.
BROWN: Do we have -- man that is just the most heartbreaking story. Do we have any idea how many children there are there and how many of those children are severely malnourished?
AMANPOUR: Well, you can make a safe bet that of a million displaced, let's say half or a third of those are children, so hundreds of thousands of children and, of course, they are the most vulnerable. As soon as there's little to eat, the most vulnerable, the old people and the children suffer first. They have much less resistance.
As I say, the malnutrition rate in this province alone is estimated at 20 to 25 percent but the U.N., for instance, puts it even higher up in the high 30s percent. So, it's difficult and that's just in this province and it's probably the same in the rest of Darfur. It's a province the size of France. There are hundreds of thousands of children and old people at risk.
BROWN: Well, that will just break your heart, Christiane thank you, Christiane Amanpour in Sudan tonight.
Coming up on the program, the thin line between the pursuit of justice and the public's right to know and the consequences reporters face when they're caught in between.
And later, the most unique look at the human body you have ever seen. That is a tease.
And this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Twenty, 22, 23, 24 years old.
You don't have to look far or listen long to realize that America's involvement in Iraq is a powerful factor in the upcoming presidential election. Just how it will shape the outcome in November may not be a bet for smart money. We'd even venture to say it surely isn't. The issue is, however, most definitely shaping the race.
Our senior analyst tonight, Jeff Greenfield.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Thank you all very much.
JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): The president last Friday in New Hampshire.
BUSH: My opponent hasn't answered the question whether knowing what we know now he would have supported going into Iraq. That's an important question. And the American people deserve a clear yes-or-no answer.
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D-MA), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Hello, everybody.
GREENFIELD: On Monday, as he overlooked the Grand Canyon, Senator Kerry provided an answer and some questions of his own.
KERRY: Yes, I would have voted for the authority. And my question to President Bush is, why did he rush to war without a plan to win the peace? Why did he rush to war on faulty intelligence?
GREENFIELD: Which brought this semi-heartfelt thank you from the president today in Florida.
BUSH: My opponent has found a new nuance. Knowing everything we know today, he would have voted to go into Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein from power. I want to thank Senator Kerry for clearing that up.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
GREENFIELD (on camera): Why this back-and-forth in the dog days of summer? Because the answers to these questions -- "Why did you do what you did, Mr. President? -- "What would you do differently, Senator?" -- the answers may determine the outcome of the election. What's more, some of the tough criticism these candidates are getting is coming, in fact, from their own side.
DICK CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Simply stated, there is no doubt that Saddam Hussein now has weapons of mass destruction.
GREENFIELD (voice-over): That assertion is now a matter of considerable doubt, doubt that's been heard from Republicans like Chuck Hagel and from some media voices that backed the war, like "The New Republic."
Some Iraqis may see the U.S. as liberators, but the insurgency has been more widespread and more deadly than predicted. And the cost of the war, which was supposed to have been funded largely by Iraq's oil revenues, is now crossing the $200 billion mark. Senator McCain, who was campaigning with the president today, has sharply criticized the postwar planning, or lack of it.
Retired Marine Commandant Anthony Zinni has said the entire civilian leadership in the Defense Department, including Secretary Rumsfeld, should be removed. And the president, who ran far stronger than Kerry on the question of handling Iraq last March, is now running no better than even.
KERRY: I know what we have to do in Iraq.
GREENFIELD: But all Kerry said in Boston was that America needed a president to bring allies to our side. And when it comes to the idea of winning allies before the war, there's this: How could Russia and France, with deep economic ties to Saddam's Iraq, ever have been persuaded to join that war? It is at best an open question.
And then there is this assertion, which the Bush campaign promptly turned into a campaign ad.
KERRY: I actually did vote for the $87 billion, before I voted against it.
GREENFIELD: Senator Joseph Biden himself, who sponsored the amendment Kerry supported, told "The New Yorker" he begged Kerry to vote for the funding anyway and says Kerry's vote was a gesture to the anti-war wing of the Democratic Party, symbolized by Howard Dean's candidacy. Wisconsin Democrat Russ Feingold says Kerry was wrong to vote for the use of force and was also wrong to vote against the $87 billion.
More than anything else, it is this vote that has fueled the charge that Kerry is a flip-flopper, that he changes his views for political reasons. Kerry does worse on this question in polls than on any other.
(on camera): It's often been said that events in Iraq will determine the public's ultimate judgment about the war. Well, one unhappy, but all too likely event is that sometime between now and November, the 1,000th American soldier will die in combat in Iraq. And that event may well speak louder than anything else.
Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: One other item before we go to break here, a federal indictment raising a chill. The accused, Kamran Shaikh, is charged with violating the immigration law and lying to authorities. But of greater concern, he was arrested while videotaping the headquarters of NationsBank in Charlotte, North Carolina. Investigators also believe he made videos of the transit systems in Atlanta and Houston, as well as a large dam in Austin, Texas.
Still to come on the program tonight, the spy, the leak, the investigator and the reporters now facing jail time, a tangled web indeed, new normal or not.
And later, something to crow about, at least around here, morning papers.
From New York, this is NEWSNIGHT.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: CIA operative Valerie Plame became news just over a year ago when syndicated columnist and CNN analyst Robert Novak revealed her identity. Prosecutors are trying to find the leakers and a grand jury must decide if it was a crime. It seems clear the story was planted with a number of reporters.
And, tonight, a reporter from "TIME" magazine, owned by our parent company, we note, is facing jail time for refusing to reveal his sources on the story. The case may be the most significant clash between federal prosecutors and the press in 30 years. So, not surprisingly, Floyd Abrams is involved. He represents the "TIME" reporter, Matthew Cooper, and the magazine. And he's with us here in New York. In Washington, we're joined by Bruce Fein, an expert on constitutional law, a former associate deputy attorney general. And we're pleased to see them both.
Mr. Abrams, what federal law is it that allows a reporter to withhold his testimony from a grand jury?
FLOYD ABRAMS, FIRST AMENDMENT ATTORNEY: Well, it's called the First Amendment. And our position is that, under the First Amendment of the Constitution, reporters have a right not to reveal their sources, because that's a part of news gathering, without which it would be impossible to find the news which they present to the public.
BROWN: That's the position you're staking. Is that position settled law?
ABRAMS: No. It is unsettled law, in fact.
The Supreme Court has only passed on this once, in 1972. And for the 30-plus years after that, courts have generally held, but not always, that there is some sort of balancing test which has to be applied before journalists can be required to reveal their sources, basically, that the prosecutor has to really need it and to have looked everywhere except the journalist to find it.
But some courts have said no. In the grand jury context, some courts have said there's no protection at all. And that's what this case is about. Is there legal protection or not for the press in this context?
BROWN: Mr. Fein, it's just an argument here -- would you argue that there's no protection ever or that there is protection sometimes depending on the fact set? Which would you argue?
BRUCE FEIN, CONSTITUTIONAL LAW EXPERT: Well, the Supreme Court was quite clear in the Branzburg case that, unless there's purposeful harassment or an attempt to intimidate, there is never an exception for the obligation for a newsman, like any other citizen, to testify before a grand jury.
And that holding has been undisturbed for more than 40 years. I also think that Mr. Abrams' argument that without a privilege under the First Amendment or otherwise that investigations would dry up are simply counterfactual. I came to Washington, D.C. in 1973 at the height of Watergate, just a year after the Branzburg decision.
And Woodward and Bernstein were revealing Watergate information every day.
BROWN: Yes, but not sources.
FEIN: We still don't know who Deep Throat is. And they had sources and those sources were forthcoming, even though there was no First Amendment right to anonymity. (CROSSTALK)
FEIN: And Mr. Abrams as well knows that he represented Nina Totenberg, Tim Phelps with regard to the leaking of the Anita Hill affidavit. They were not -- they were told they could go ahead and leave. Because the press was sufficiently powerful, the Senate wouldn't inquire further.
I don't think that there's any showing that, in the states that have newsmen's privilege statutes, as opposed to the Constitution, there's any more thorough investigation than in states that don't have such statutes like Virginia.
BROWN: Let me stop you for a second. We get a lot of stuff in here and let me get Mr. Abrams' response to some of it.
ABRAMS: I think the reality is that since that case that Bruce Fein is referring to, the 1972 case, the courts have gone in a lot of directions. More courts than not have basically said journalists do have protection.
Now, I know Bruce thinks that's wrong and some judges think that's wrong, but more courts than not have said that. And so journalists have lived by it. So we've lived for three decades under a regime of law which has provided a good deal of protection, and journalists have behaved as if they had the protection.
(CROSSTALK)
FEIN: Well, I think Mr. Abrams, I think that's accurate outside grand jury investigations. But if you look at grand jury investigations, the court record is not mixed. In civil cases, you're correct. And even in some pretrial criminal proceedings, you're correct. But this is grand jury.
(CROSSTALK)
FEIN: Moreover, it's a little bit odd here for the press to invoke the First Amendment and the public's right to know, because what the public has a right to know is whether there was a government official who committed a criminal act and endangered intelligence agencies and their sources all across the globe.
ABRAMS: Well, there's something else, Bruce. Bruce, stop.
(CROSSTALK)
FEIN: You would think that the press, trumpeting the right to know, should come forth with the information.
BROWN: Different argument, different night.
ABRAMS: Bruce, the other thing the public has a right to know is what "TIME" published and what Matt Cooper, my client, wrote, is that there were a lot of leaks coming out of the administration designed to condemn Ambassador Wilson, who had written a very hostile op-ed piece in "The New York Times."
And the thrust of "TIME"'s piece was, gee, isn't it interesting that the administration is leaking all this bad stuff about this guy? Now, that's something that the public, on any theory, has a right to know.
(CROSSTALK)
FEIN: But it is even more important that the public know whether there was a crime committed.
BROWN: Stop.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Finish this up.
ABRAMS: Yes, this is also a very unlikely crime, as you know. The chances of a real indictment here, the chances anyone is going to go to jail other than a journalist is pretty slight. And that is one of the sad things about this.
We're spending so much time, so much money focusing on who leaked information, that we're staying away from things which really matter.
BROWN: Mr. Abrams, good to see you, sir.
ABRAMS: Good to see you.
BROWN: And, Mr. Fein, it's good to see you. You two have done this before.
ABRAMS: So we have.
BROWN: And I suspect you will again. And you're welcome to do it here. Thank you both very much.
FEIN: Thank you.
BROWN: Ahead on the program, a look into the human body and our disturbing yet fascinating inner beauty. And there's always beauty in tomorrow's headlines, more or less.
This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In the 1966 movie "The Fantastic Voyage," a surgical team is miniaturized and inserted into a dying man. While trying to destroy a blood clot deep in his brain, they are menaced by enormous white blood cells and have to ride a wild white water of the heart.
The movie was billed as the most fantastic, spectacular and terrifying journey of their lives, the tiny surgeons' lives that is. The same might be said of an extraordinary international exhibit now on display in Los Angeles. It reveals what few of us ever see. Around the world, 15 million people have seen it so far. For some, seeing it for the first time, the images may be difficult.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's the heart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You see the heart.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at the lung.
JEFF RUDOLPH, PRESIDENT & CEO, CALIFORNIA SCIENCE CENTER: Body World is an exhibit of 25 whole human bodies and a number of different organs and parts that show an incredible look at human physiology and anatomy, helping us understand our own bodies, how they function and what can go wrong.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Look at this guy's lung. This is why you guys shouldn't smoke.
RUDOLPH: These are all real human bodies and specimens from people who during their lifetimes gave their bodies for public medical education. It gives us a chance to look at ourselves in a way that maybe medical professionals have an opportunity chance to see, but the lay public never gets a chance to see.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What is this, the liver? Liver.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. God, it is big.
DR. GUNTHER VON HAGENS, INVENTOR OF PLASTINATION: And the people here at Body World, they believe it is some things they saw in films, blending anatomy with crime, with horror. But Body World is something different. It is the beauty beneath our skin frozen in time. It is a natural art. God has given me the power to preserve what he has done in such beauty.
RUDOLPH: The process of plastination is one which essentially replaces the water and fluids in our body with plastics. And since most of our body is made up of fluid, that results in a specimen that's largely plastic and is preserved forever, essentially.
VON HAGENS: There are people, actually, they recognize themselves in the specimen. And this actually brings life into this exhibition.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All those faces that you make when you go like this...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're moving your muscles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are all your muscles. And you've got tons of muscles around your face.
RUDOLPH: Basically, each one is presented to show something different. They range from a basketball player that looks at the musculature and how the body's muscles and skeletal system work when we're in action, to a chess player who is bending over a chess board. And you see the brain and the spinal cord and the nervous system emanating from the spinal cord to the family where there's a father, mother and child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looks like an infant.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He looks like he's younger than you.
RUDOLPH: And you are looking at the arterial system and the circulatory system of all of them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that's all blood?
RUDOLPH: Through a series of showcases that show the individual organs, you can see all the different parts of our body and how they function in a healthy body and how things can go wrong.
VON HAGENS: For me as a physician, it is especially important to avoid disease, to make the people know, if you smoke, your lung will look like that. If you drink too much, your liver will show those signs, to change the lifestyle and learn from the corpse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That will get you healthy real quick.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That will get you thinking.
VON HAGENS: The main message of this Body World exhibition is to create the power to live a better and more -- longer life.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(ROOSTER CROWING)
BROWN: Okeydoke, time to check morning papers from around the country, around the world. So many papers, so little time tonight.
"International Herald Tribune," published by "The New York Times." "Positive on Growth, Fed Raises Interest Rates." We mentioned that. We talked earlier about the fighting in Najaf. "U.S. Presses Fight with Iraqi Militia. Military Urges Guerrillas to End Battle." Do they ever actually do that?
But up here, this is the story that caught my eye. I have no idea what this story is about, but the headline is a grabber. "Dining in Hitler's Shadow." Yikes.
"The Philadelphia Inquirer" leads with Trump. "A Troubled Empire, Trump Gambled on Junk Bonds and Lost." His hotels and casinos in Atlantic city not far from Philadelphia. That's why it's a big front-page story. What else? Oh, I like this story, too. I need to read it now. "The Doctor Will See You Today. A Growing Movement Gets People Into the Office in a More Timely Fashion." It seems like a reasonable thing to do. "The Washington Times" leads thusly: "Al Qaeda Plans Major Assassination. Bin Laden Will Signal Attacks, Officials Disclose," a story by Bill Gertz of "The Washington Times." He comes up with a lot of good stuff.
"The Des Moines Register." "Heading Out to the F-F-Fair," it says. I didn't just stammer there. That's what it says. "Take a Jacket. Mercury Unlikely to Hit 80 This Week." Well, 75 is a perfectly nice temperature in Des Moines."
Speaking of temperature, the weather tomorrow in Chicago is AWOL. That doesn't sound good, does it?
We'll wrap it up in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Good to have you with us tonight.
"AMERICAN MORNING," 7:00 Eastern time. You'll want to join the gang for that. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" for most of you coming up next.
We'll see you tomorrow at 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.
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