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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

New Jersey Governor Announces He is Gay and Will Resign from Office

Aired August 12, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSNIGHT: Hello from Atlanta. I'm Miles O'Brien in for Aaron Brown tonight. Politics in New Jersey has long been infected by a culture of corruption. By one estimate, the Garden Sate leads the nation in the number of former mayors in Federal prison. So as we watch the burgeoning scandal surrounding Governor James McGreevey in recent months when allegations of bribes and attempts to silence witnesses, it seemed sadly familiar.
But then came the bombshell. As of this afternoon, McGreevey is now an openly gay American, out of the closet and soon to be out of politics. The plot my thicken here. There are rumblings of a lawsuit from a spurned lover but we wonder in this day and age if a 47-year- old married father of two who realizes he is gay could make such an announcement without being forced to leave political office. We wonder also will the day come ever when he could? Which brings us to the whip (ph) and Alina Cho in New York. Alina, a headline please?

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, it is a political bombshell. Governor James McGreevey makes this stunning announcement about his sexuality, then abruptly resigned. It was an unprecedented day in politics, even surreal -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Thanks, Alina, see you soon. President Bush and the first lady sat down with Larry King tonight. You just saw it, probably. Suzanne Malveaux gets to write the first headline, if you please.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, often we just get that sound bite or even become numb from the familiar stump speech. But President Bush gave us much more when he and the first lady sat down for a one hour interview with our own Larry King.

O'BRIEN: Thank you Suzanne. See you soon as well. The man who would like his job also on the west coast today and frankly his campaign was on its heels over a sensitive issue. John King is with the Kerry campaign. A headline, please, sir?

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, Senator Kerry wanted to talk about the economy today. But he came under fierce attack from Vice President Cheney who seized on Senator Kerry's recent comment that he would wage a more sensitive war on terror. Vice President Cheney says sensitivity is the last thing the terrorists need. Miles.

O'BRIEN: Thank you John King. In the holy city of Najaf, Iraq, the assault is apparently on. Matthew Chance is there embedded with U.S. Marines. Matthew, a headline please. MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Miles. Thousands of U.S. forces have been deployed on the streets of Najaf to crack down on the Mehdi Army (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Muqtada al-Sadr. We'll also show you exclusive video images of U.S. Marines raiding the house of the radical Shiite cleric.

O'BRIEN: Thank you Matthew Chance. Finally the Florida Keys and the Tampa Bay area bracing tonight for an unwelcome visitor, Hurricane Charlie. Orelon Sydney, forecast a headline for us, please.

ORELON SYDNEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, I did some research and the last time Florida was hit by two tropical cyclones in a row was October 17, 1906. Bonnie moved into the panhandle early this morning. And Charlie will be moving into the Florida Keys and then the west coast later on today. Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Thank you very much Orelon, back to you in a moment.

Also on the program tonight, gay marriages. A California court declares the marriages of thousands of same-sex couples invalid. The question now, how will this issue impact November elections?

And later, ancient Olympics. No steroids, no clothes for that matter. A look way back in time with the modern games upon us. A NEWSNIGHT history lesson but don't worry, no quiz.

All that and more in the hour ahead. We begin tonight with that stunning moment from the first words out of his mouth this afternoon, it was clear Jim McGreevey, the governor of New Jersey, was making very big news indeed. And beyond the facts and allegations and anguish immediately surrounding his story, what the governor said today also becomes part of a larger story at a turning point for the country. He said he is gay. Here's CNN's Alina Cho.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHO (voice-over): It was a news conference like no other -- Candid, poignant, personal.

GOV. JAMES MCGREEVEY, NEW JERSEY: At a point in every person's life, one has to look deeply into the mirror of one's soul and decide one's unique truth in the world, not as we may want to see it or hope to see it, but as it is. And so my truth is that I am a gay American.

CHO: Governor James McGreevey then announced he would resign. The hastily called news conference came after reports of a pending lawsuit. Two Democratic sources tell CNN a former aid to McGreevey is the plaintiff in a sexual harassment suit against the New Jersey governor. Flanked by his second wife Dina, even his parents, McGreevey, a father of two said he had grappled with his identity for years, was forced into what he called an acceptable reality. And ultimately, he admitted he had strayed.

MCGREEVEY: Shamefully, I engaged in adult consensual affair with another man which violates my bonds of matrimony. It was wrong, it was foolish, it was inexcusable. And for this, I ask the forgiveness and the grace of my wife.

CHO: The embattled governor is no stranger to controversy. Just last month a top McGreevey campaign contributor Charles Kushner was charged with luring grand jury witnesses into sex with prostitutes. McGreevey survived that news. This he could not escape.

MCGREEVEY: This, the 47th year of my life, it is arguably too late to have this discussion. But it is here and it is now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHO: It was something to watch. A top adviser to Governor McGreevey told CNN that the governor wrote the announcement himself. And another Democratic strategist called the governor's remarks well delivered and well received but added, Miles, quote, given what's ahead of him, it is downhill from here. Miles?

O'BRIEN: Alina Cho in New York. Thank you very much.

Two things happened in our news rooms here in Atlanta and in New York today when Governor McGreevey made his announcement. First, no one said a word and then about a nanosecond later everybody started talking at once. Jeff Greenfield, on the other hand, started making phone calls jotting down some ideas and we're glad to have him with us tonight. Jeff, let's do a hypothetical here for a moment. Subtract just one point from today's news conference and the facts and that is the fact that he had a gay affair. What if it was heterosexual, how much would that change the story?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know what Miles, it is not hypothetical. The political career of Paul Patton (ph), the governor of Kentucky was brought to a screeching halt a year or so ago when he confessed he had an affair with a woman, a nursing home operator. There are allegations, as there are here, that, of special favors done.

In the case of New Jersey, this gentleman was picked to run New Jersey's homeland security department. His credentials were challenged. He was not permitted to hold that job. He was put on the payroll, state payroll at a very high salary. So the answer to your question is based on what happened to Paul Patton who was going to run for the Senate this year and is now out of politics, I think that the gay aspect of this, while it is clearly the headline grabber, while the public acknowledgement of a governor that he's been a closeted gay for his entire life was the big wow part of it, in terms of the political impact, I think we know from past experience that this would have been just as devastating in my view had it been a woman he was involved with.

O'BRIEN: Another way of putting that, is if it was simply a statement today, I'm gay, I'm coming out of the closet and there was no other factors, you think he could have held on to his job?

GREENFIELD: Now you're into some really good hypotheticals. Here's what we know. I kind of like to work on what we know. There have been cases where other politicians have been outed and have survived. A Republican congressman in Wisconsin, Steve Gunderson was outed by a very conservative fellow Republican, won re-election the next time.

Barney Frank, probably the best known gay politician, acknowledged his homosexuality because it was about to be made public. Not only did he survive that, he survived -- we can call it a scandal, when it was revealed that he'd taken up with a male prostitute, let him perform his business in the basement of Barney Frank's home. He survived that. Whether or not a case of somebody who is married with two kids, the question might be did he conceal his sexuality from his wife? I don't know the answer to that. But I do know it is much too simple to say that, well, the gay/straight aspect is the only thing that matters here.

O'BRIEN: What about the aspect, though, of when you talk about congressmen, you mentioned three congressmen as examples. They're much more closer to the base, so to speak. And people in a district such as that feel as if they know the person. They can excuse those things. When you're the chief executive of a state, is it different?

GREENFIELD: Well, that's the point that I don't know how to answer because I have nothing on which to base it. I think it is certainly true that some -- that we don't know. That's what's certainly true. And I suspect sometime in the next couple of years an openly gay politician - look, Barney Frank may seek the Senate seat of John Kerry if Kerry is elected president. It may be different and the fact that someone is a closeted gay who was married and in effect, I hate to put it this bluntly, lived a kind of lie in public may make a difference to the public. But whether somebody who say was never married, never talked about his sexuality one way or another, then says look, I want to let you know that I'm gay and I'm running for governor. There I'd say Miles it depends on what state we're talking about. I think we're very close to that point where such a politician could succeed because the public attitude toward homosexuality over the last 25 and 30 years has changed dramatically.

O'BRIEN: All right. Thanks very much for indulging us and forcing you to predict the future a little bit. We appreciate that.

GREENFIELD: No, can't do it.

O'BRIEN: Jeff Greenfield, all the hypotheticals make it a little challenging for all of us in this business. We appreciate it.

It is fair to say Governor McGreevey's press conference was the most dramatic political story of the day but surely it wasn't the only one, of course with a presidential race on and all. The race for the oval office remains tight and the candidates seem to be traveling to the same places, presumably where those elusive undecided voters live. In the midst of all of this, President Bush and the first lady sat down with Larry King this evening for an exclusive interview. Many of you saw it stem to stern. CNN's Suzanne Malveaux joins us now in Los Angeles with the highlights. Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, here are some of the highlights. We first learned that the president believes that Kerry's military service was honorable, but he did stop short of condemning the contents of some of the ads calling into question and criticizing Kerry's military record. We also learned that the president believes that the U.S. can win the war on terror, that he says he would do it all over again if he could.

But we learn something new as well. The president addressing the criticism and even the ridicule that initially started with the movie "Fahrenheit 9/11" that moment on September 11th when President Bush was sitting before Florida school children when his chief of staff whispered in his ear that the country was under attack and that seven- minute pause that the president took before he got up to address the issue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think what's important is how I reacted when I realized America was under attack. It didn't take me long to figure out we're at war. It didn't take me long to develop a plan that would go after al Qaeda. We went in action very quickly.

LARRY KING: So you thing the criticism was unwarranted?

BUSH: I think it is easy to second guess a moment. What is relevant is whether or not I understand and understood then the stakes. And I recognized that we were at war and I made a determination that we would do everything we could to bring those killers to justice and to protect the American people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And Miles, really that is at the heart of the campaign. That is the central theme essentially that President Bush believes that he is the better commander in chief, the better leader, that will be able to better protect our country. Miles.

O'BRIEN: Suzanne, Mr. and Mrs. Bush spent some time with Nancy Reagan today and there was some questions and answers on the subject of Nancy Reagan and her support for the Bushes, a lot of questions about that when you get down to that stem cell controversy.

MALVEAUX: Well, absolutely, Miles. I mean as you know, the president and the first lady disagreed with Nancy Reagan about stem cell research. Nancy Reagan believing it should be expanded a bit. But we were told that Nancy Reagan invited the president over, that she wanted to make it very clear that she was backing the president in his own campaign despite the fact that her own son was one of the keynote speakers at the Democratic convention, calling for an expansion of this type of research. But this is a time in the Republican Party and particularly the Bush administration really wants to show a united front.

O'BRIEN: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you very much.

Before he sat down with Larry King in California, President Bush campaigned in Nevada today. Senator Kerry was also in California talking about the economy, but once again Iraq dominated the rhetoric. In Ohio, Vice President Dick Cheney took aim and fired using Kerry's own words as ammunition. Here's CNN's John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: California is the biggest prize in presidential politics. At the moment, things here look good for John Kerry. And when you're up more than 10 points strategy gets simple, play to your strengths.

JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We believe that a stronger America is, in fact, built on a strong middle class.

KING: But the other side has other ideas believing Senator Kerry created an opening by promising to wage a more sensitive war on terror.

RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Those who threaten us and kill innocents around the world do not need to be treated more sensitively. They need to be destroyed.

KING: Senator Kerry made no mention of the attack in his economic speech and aides said he had no intention of personally responding. But when pressed after the speech, he took issue with the vice president's tone, not his criticism.

KERRY: It is sad that they can only be negative. They have nothing to say about the future vision of America. I think Americans want a positive vision for the future.

KING: In a speech at issue a week ago, Senator Kerry vowed to destroy terrorist networks. And aides say by promising to be more sensitive he simply meant more diplomatic with other countries, much as President Bush used the term six weeks after taking office.

BUSH: Precisely because America is powerful, we must be sensitive about expressing our power and influence.

KING: The Bush campaign attacks are designed to protect a critical campaign edge, a 13 point advantage over Senator Kerry when voters are asked, who would better handle terrorism.

Another Bush-Cheney strategy is daily questions about Senator Kerry's vote in favor of the Iraq war. That is more risky. It was Mr. Bush who launched the war and nearly half of Americans now think it was a mistake to send troops to Iraq. But just among Democrats, 74 percent call the war a mistake and the White House thinks the more Senator Kerry has to explain his vote, the more anti-war Democrats might become disillusioned with his candidacy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And Senator Kerry here in Oregon tonight. Senior advisers for his campaign concede the Bush/Cheney campaign has had some success in raising questions, perhaps even doubts about the senator's views on Iraq and his broader approach to the war on terrorism. These advisers attribute the attacks to a Bush White House they insist is worried but they also concede Miles, they need to do a better job of answering them.

O'BRIEN: I suppose the best defense is a good offense. Given events in Iraq and around the world, if you could make a suggestion that the tables should be turned, that the Bush campaign should be on its heels, some pretty successful campaigning, I'd say.

KING: It is one of the most interesting dilemmas and issues of this campaign. Senator Kerry believes he can score points talking about what happened after the bombs started dropping in Iraq, saying the president did not have a plan for the peace. The Bush White House believes it can mute those criticisms and put Senator Kerry on the defensive by making him explain and defend his vote to go to war. Both campaigns believe you have a polarized electorate and the winner will be the candidate who most effectively turns out his votes on Election Day and the White House is banking that if Senator Kerry is out there publicly saying, yes, I voted for the war in Iraq, then enough Democrats, even if it's just a tiny sliver Miles, will get disillusioned and not vote. They think that will help, but you're right. Senator Kerry and he just did it in this speech here, says the issue should be did the commander in chief have a plan not only to win the war and win the peace. He said this president did not. Miles.

O'BRIEN: It is interesting, John though, every poll I read shows that Americans are most concerned about the economy. And yet the debate always goes back to this. Why?

KING: Well, certainly President Bush is at a disadvantage right now when it comes to the economy which is another reason the Kerry campaign says it will focus on the economy for the next two weeks run up to the Republican convention. Some aides were very disappointed that the senator even responded at all to Dick Cheney's criticism today. They wanted him to stay focused like a laser on the economy.

They believe in the end that will be the big issue. What the Bush campaign is banking on is that because there are 140,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, still troops in Afghanistan, still the terrorist threat that come a week before the election, all Americans will sit back and think about a threshold question: do they want to change commanders in chief in the middle of a war? And the Bush campaign is banking on the fact that that answer for enough voters will be no. That is one of the key debates.

O'BRIEN: John King with the Kerry campaign. Thanks very much.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the battle for Najaf. U.S. forces launch an assault, raid the home of a radical cleric. Could this American offensive ignite a firestorm throughout the Muslim world? Live report from Najaf is next.

Also Hurricane Charlie, just hours away from bearing down on Florida. Hundreds of thousands are in harm's way. We'll give you the latest predictions for Charlie from the CNN center in Atlanta, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: In Iraq today the long awaited push against a rebel cleric and his army began in earnest. Long awaited, perhaps long dreaded as well. Thousands of American and Iraqi lives are on the line and so is a very delicate political balance which extends far beyond the borders of Iraq. Here is CNN's Matthew Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is how the U.S. Marines made their house call, at the gates of the Mehdi Army leader in Najaf. These are exclusive CNN images of a raid on the home of Muqtada al-Sadr. He was long gone, but this new offensive against his Mehdi forces, it was a strong message: back down or be hunted.

UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER: We are currently now moved over to this private hospital here which we believe Sadr used as another headquarters for his bodyguards and right now we've just gone through Sadr's house. The house was clean. And we're currently exploring anything be can find inside.

CHANCE: U.S. forces have now unleashed awesome power to crush the Shiite uprising. Military officials say thousands of troops backed by tanks and helicopter gun ships have been raiding Mehdi army strongholds and when the insurgents hold out, like at this Najaf school, air strikes are called in. For many Iraqis, this is overkill. The U.S. military says it's using restraint.

UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER: The reason we're here is because the government in Najaf has asked for our help to restore law and order and control to the rightful Iraqi government. We're being very careful to stay away from the mosque area, definitely not going to do any damage there. We're using a lot of restraint in our operations.

CHANCE: On the streets of Najaf, the fighting is intense. Civilians have been urged to stay in their homes, but many have been fleeing the city. This has been a display of overwhelming U.S. firepower. But the battle for Najaf is far from won.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That was CNN's Matthew chance in Najaf.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, tears of sorrow. Same-sex couples react to the news of a California court. Thousands of gay and lesbian marriages are no longer legal.

Also, the pageantry of the opening ceremonies of the Olympic games just hours away. We go back in time when the Olympic movement was all about blood, brutality and nudity. You heard it right. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's been just shy of a century since two big storms pounded the state of Florida back-to-back, 98 years to be precise. Tropical storm Bonnie hit this morning doing little damage to speak of. Hurricane Charlie, on the other hand, well, people from the Keys to the panhandle spent the day making ready for something a lot more consequential. The plywood went up, the bread and water were bought and people began leaving for safer ground. Authorities are urging about 800,000 people from the Keys to Tampa to evacuate and that may soon become an order. For the latest on where things stand at the moment, we turn it over to CNN's Orelon Sydney in the weather center. Hello, Orelon.

SYDNEY: Miles, thanks a lot. Right now the center of hurricane Charlie is located 200 miles south of Key West moving now to the north-northwest at about 18, 17, 18 miles an hour. The wind speed has been holding at 105 miles an hour. That's a strong category 2 storm.

The latest satellite images, though, it really looks like it is taking on a little bit more of a ragged profile. So we might actually see the winds drop a bit and then perhaps pick up again as it moves north of Cuba and moves away from the interaction with land. What we have for you currently are the warnings from the Dry Tortugas, through Key West, the seven-mile bridge, a hurricane warning is in effect and then from East Cape Sable northward to Bayport.

They also have a hurricane warning. That means hurricane conditions are expected within 24 hours and down in Key West, you believe it. Winds are up to 16 miles an hour now. But the thing that you're getting is some of the outer rain bands and even some tornado warnings. Up towards marathon we had reports of strong thunderstorms with rotation. Again, these are some of the outer rain bands moving in. We expect to see this storm perhaps as strong as category 3 across the areas of the Keys 2:00 a.m. in the morning. Miles.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about that storm surge. That is a big concern, aside from the winds and the rain.

SYDNEY: That's exactly right and the stronger the storm is, obviously, the bigger the surge is. As this storm works its way northward towards Tampa, we're looking at potential landfall about 2:00 p.m. tomorrow, maybe as strong as category 3. That would give us a storm surge of 10 to 13 feet before it moves on off. That could be a real problem for folks obviously across the west coast, not just in Tampa. But that will be the area we think will have the strongest impact.

O'BRIEN: In some cases, it's going to be hitting at high tide, as I understand it.

SYDNEY: That's exactly correct. As it moves past Key West, the tide there I think is 8:42 in the morning so not a lot of problem there. But as we head on up the coast, the later in the day you get, the closer you're going to get to the time of high tide. So that certainly will be a problem as well.

O'BRIEN: Orelon Sydney. She's got her cot set up in the weather center. Good luck. Thank you very much.

SYDNEY: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, tonight on Larry King, the president derided those who spend a lot of time talking about politics as the chattering class. Well, guilty as charged I suppose.

We'll chatter about the interview shortly.

Later, more on the explosive announcement by the New Jersey governor. He is gay and he is resigning. The announcement sure surprised us, but what about a reporter who has covered Jim McGreevey for 20 years?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

LARRY KING, HOST: What's disappointed you?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The bitterness inside Washington. It's different than I thought. Certainly wasn't that case in Austin, Texas, when I was the governor.

KING: You were never hated there.

G. BUSH: Oh, I don't, you know, I don't pay...

KING: How do you react to that?

G. BUSH: I just don't pay that much attention to it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: The president of the United States responding to our own Larry King tonight, Mr. Bush and first lady Laura Bush there for the entire hour touching on a wide range of issues above and beyond the bitter tone in Washington.

Joining us from Washington to talk about the interview and presidential politics in general, David Sanger of "The New York Times" and Liz Marlantes of "The Christian Science Monitor."

Good to have you both with us.

LIZ MARLANTES, "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": Thank you.

DAVID SANGER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Thanks for having us.

O'BRIEN: I want to play a few clips and get your response to it.

Let's start with the first one. This one is on the subject of war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

G. BUSH: It's painful to know that a young American has lost his or her life in combat. It's painful because I know how broken-hearted their loved ones are. We have met with their loved ones a lot.

KING: You have?

G. BUSH: You bet.

KING: Because we don't see any stories.

G. BUSH: Well, you shouldn't. These are private moments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Liz, I suppose a cynic would say, we don't see those moments because the president and the White House doesn't want to call attention to the fact that the casualty toll continues to mount there.

And what's interesting to me is, as you see events unfold in Iraq, it belies what's happening on the campaign. The Bush campaign seems to be on the offensive on this point.

MARLANTES: Absolutely. They went on the offensive on Iraq really hard this week.

It started with Bush issuing a sort of challenge to Kerry to get him to say whether he would have voted the same way knowing then what he knows now. And Kerry took the bait and said he would. And then Bush immediately cast that as a flip-flop. And they really haven't let up.

Today, you had Dick Cheney out there castigating Kerry for a comment he made earlier that he would fight a more sensitive war on terror. So this has really been -- we've seen a strong, strong push from the Bush campaign this week to really question Kerry's credentials in national security and specifically on Iraq.

Bush has really tried to seize that issue back. And you're right. In a week when casualties are continuing to mount, that there's something sort of ironic in that, but, absolutely, Kerry was the one on the defensive this week.

O'BRIEN: David, how do you explain that? Complete outmaneuvering on the part of the Bush campaign or ineptitude on the Kerry campaign?

SANGER: Well, a little bit of both. And I don't think this one is over.

I was talking to a number of people in the Kerry campaign about this yesterday, when I was writing on this topic. And what I think is interesting is that the president did exactly what Liz said, issued this challenge. Mr. Kerry did take the bait. But then the president came back and said, well, you know, Mr. Kerry and I now are in complete agreement that we needed to go to war in Iraq, which, of course, is not what Mr. Kerry's position has been.

It has been that he voted to authorize the war because he thought the president needed the maximum negotiating leverage, but then thought he would take a series of steps, which Mr. Kerry has described at some length. The difficulty for this position for Mr. Kerry is that this is hardly the kind of bumper-sticker talk that happens in presidential campaigns, particularly as they get down toward the end.

And we're now within, what, 83, 84 days. And so Mr. Kerry's had a very difficult time, I think, trying to get, to use his word, the nuance of his position out there. And the president has twisted it just enough to make nuance sound like flip-flopping.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's move on to another subject. This one is gay marriage, of course, in the news today. Let's listen for a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

G. BUSH: it's too important an issue for judges to make that decision. And I think that one way to guarantee that traditional marriage is defined as between a man and a woman is through the constitutional process...

KING: What about the union of gays?

G. BUSH: Well, that's up to states, you know. If states choose to do that, in other words, if they want to provide legal protections for gays, that's great. That's fine. But I do not want to change the definition of marriage. I don't think our country should,

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Liz, it's a bit of an evasive answer. Is it enough for the right wing of the GOP?

MARLANTES: I think so, yes.

I mean, Bush is really sort of where the majority of Americans are on this issue, in the sense that, you know, most Americans do not favor gay marriage. They don't want to deny rights to gays. And so Bush made clear tonight that he felt there were other ways to make sure that homosexuals get the same sort of rights as all Americans. But he cast it as a question of democracy.

This is something that Americans should make up their minds in the states and this shouldn't be left up to judges, which is sort of what he's been saying all along. And I think that is a position that will sell well in most parts of the country.

O'BRIEN: Of course, David, it's worth pointing out, there's not much daylight between Mr. Bush and Mr. Kerry on this point.

SANGER: There isn't.

And it was that answer and the answer on stem cells, Miles, that struck me that the president was using this interview to very much move right down the middle. Sometimes, when we're out on the campaign trail with him, depending on who the audience is, you hear him make an appeal that's very clearly to a more conservative, more right-wing element of the party.

But with this audience, he was clearly trying to appeal to mainstream and perhaps the swing voters. And so he took a down-the- middle road, down-the-middle road, or at least what his party would view as one. And in fact, at one point in that, he was asked by Mr. King, so what about inheritance? They couldn't do a -- if you would deny gay marriage, then you deny the rights of inheritance the way a husband and wife would have it. And he said, well, the answer to that is get rid of the inheritance tax.

O'BRIEN: I thought that was a pretty good answer, definitely.

All right, David Sanger, Liz Marlantes, thank you both very much for your time. Appreciate your instant analysis.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the fight over same-sex marriage. A California court declares thousands of marriages invalid. We'll have the story for you in just a moment.

Also, a return to Olympia, when Olympic athletes wore olive oil, just olive oil.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGREEVEY: Makes little different that, as governor, I am gay. In fact, having the ability to truthfully set forth my identity might have enabled me to be more forthright in fulfilling and discharging my constitutional obligations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: James McGreevey has the makings of a political thoroughbred. Elected governor of New Jersey in 2001, he holds degrees from Columbia, Georgetown and Harvard and is apt to quote Aristotle or Kierkegaard or Machiavelli. Perhaps the latter might have predicted the surprising twist we witnessed today.

And perhaps Herb Jackson could as well. He is a columnist for "The Bergen Record" in New Jersey. He covered state politics there and Jim McGreevey for two decades now. He joins us tonight from Princeton.

Good to have you with us, Herb.

HERB JACKSON, COLUMNIST, "THE RECORD OF BERGEN COUNTY": Good evening.

O'BRIEN: You began the day on vacation. You ended it up here, obviously, a big story. Were you surprised?

JACKSON: Oh, you know, I don't know that anybody was really surprised to find out that Jim McGreevey was gay.

O'BRIEN: Really? JACKSON: They were stunned probably to hear him say it on live television.

O'BRIEN: All right. That had been widely rumored among reporters? And I assume there was some discussion about whether to do stories on it, right?

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: It's just that. It was rumors. It was just like rumors that Bill Clinton slept around. It wasn't until you had a blue dress with a stain on it that legitimate news organizations could go with it.

And what was apparently about to happen was, his lover was planning a lawsuit which was going to out the governor -- or his former lover, I should say, was planning a lawsuit. It was going to out the governor. And this man was the governor's appointee early in his term in 2002 for a job as a homeland security adviser.

And you have that happening when we're only a few months past September 11, 2001, that I think it would have been really politically crippling for the governor.

O'BRIEN: How much trouble was Jim McGreevey in politically before this came to light?

JACKSON: Oh, he was in trouble, but he wasn't in critical condition. He had some scandals involving fund-raisers. And he had some scandals involving advisers who made a lot of money right before they joined his administration, staff members. But they didn't really touch on him.

And there's some question now how far those cases will go, whether they would have touched on him, whether people might have been cutting deals that might have implicated the governor. Those are speculations. But, as it stood at the Democratic Convention, the party was united behind him for another term in 2005.

O'BRIEN: All right, you know New Jersey. You know New Jersey voters well. If the announcement had specifically just been about his personal life and the fact that he is gay and coming out of the closet, would New Jersey voters have kept him in office?

JACKSON: Well, it was, he was gay. He had had an affair as well.

I don't know. I don't know what people's reactions would have been. I think the people who would have been turned off by him being gay were already angry at him for a bill that he signed legalizing stem cell research and also a bill that New Jersey signed recognizing domestic partnerships. So that vote, if you will, was already angrily against Jim McGreevey.

Him coming out of the closet, if you would, would not have really peeled too many more people off. But I think what would have been the devastating part was that he put his lover in a job as a homeland security adviser. And the man eventually had to resign because he essentially wasn't qualified for the job.

O'BRIEN: Herb Jackson with "The Bergen County Record," thanks for your time. I guess it is not time to go back to vacation just yet. But we wish you well when you get back to it.

JACKSON: OK.

O'BRIEN: Governor McGreevey's announcement would have been astonishing regardless of the timing. But it comes in an election year, with the country deeply divided over gay marriage, a debate that's playing out in the courts, in state legislatures and at the polls. Today, California's highest court weighed in.

Reporting for us tonight, Donna Tetreault.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONNA TETREAULT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only two weeks shy of their 10th year together, Brad Rauf (ph) and Michael Mahoney got married here at City Hall in San Francisco six months ago, or so they thought.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It changes nothing between us.

TETREAULT: Today, a California Supreme Court ruling declared their marriage invalid, along with more than 4,000 other same-sex couples.

MOLLY MCKAY, MARRIED IN CALIFORNIA: It hurts that they are talking about taking these licenses away from us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not fair. This is not.

TETREAULT: The state court steered clear of ruling on the constitutionality of gay marriage. Its decision said, San Francisco's mayor, Gavin Newsom, lacks the authority to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. Newsom says he expected this decision.

GAVIN NEWSOM (D), MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: I'm hardly surprised by it, because I'm not naive. And we never expected that this struggle would end with a Supreme Court decision today. We knew that it would begin with renewed vigor and energy.

MICHAEL MAHONEY, MARRIED IN CALIFORNIA: I don't think it is a complete setback at all. I think it is just one step. And we expect the state Supreme Court to rule on the entire issue.

TETREAULT: That will happen when the city of San Francisco challenges the constitutionality of barring gay marriage.

So, for now, the gay community has lost a battle, but the war is by no means over.

MCKAY: I'm going to have to call my wife and ask her to marry me again. We're going to have to get re-engaged.

TETREAULT: But an attorney who worked to stop the marriages altogether last February is pleased.

SCOTT LIVELY, FAMILY RIGHTS ATTORNEY: We believe that homosexuality is a sexual and family dysfunction, that it deserves to be disapproved by society.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TETREAULT: And so tonight, the movement continues. Hundreds of same-sex couples have gathered here at San Francisco's City Hall to protest today's court ruling. Early next month, in San Francisco's Superior Court, arguments will be heard to determine whether or not gay marriage should be legalized, just as it's been legalized in Massachusetts -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Donna, in the meantime, is there any talk of giving those 4,000 couples that got licenses a refund?

TETREAULT: Yes, there is.

And, actually, Mayor Gavin Newsom has said that people could get their refund, but he's urged them not to because he said that would only be to them saying that they're not married.

O'BRIEN: And one other thought. The taxpayers of the city of San Francisco, are they footing the bills for the court costs in all of this?

TETREAULT: At this point, it's the taxpayers.

O'BRIEN: Donna Tetreault, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the pageantry of the opening ceremonies of the Olympic Games, athletes coming together and the world watching. Up next, the Olympics B.C., and we don't mean before Costas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: The 2004 Summer Olympics begin tomorrow in Athens, a modern event in a modern city in modern times, millions in corporate sponsorships, millions watching all over the globe, terror threats and drug scandals, in short, not your father's Olympic Games and definitely not your great-great-great-great-great-great-great- grandfather's either. But these are.

Here is NEWSNIGHT's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How do we know what the ancient Olympics were like? From excavations at Olympia, site of the ancient Games about 2,000 south of Athens, from a treasury of vases and statues such as those now on exhibit at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston and at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and from detailed accounts written by a host of ancient sports fans.

TONY PERROTTET, AUTHOR, "THE NAKED OLYMPICS": Plato, Sophocles, Socrates, Lucian, the great orator, Herodotus, Thucydides, basically the ancient Games were woven into the very fabric of history.

NISSEN: These sources tell us that the ancient Olympics were bawdy, bloody, brutal religious spectacles in honor of Zeus.

PERROTTET: In fact, sacrifices and rituals took as much time as the athletic events.

NISSEN: To get an idea of the scene, think of a cross between a pilgrimage to Mecca, Easter mass at the Vatican and Woodstock.

PERROTTET: The ambience was very much like a badly planned rock concert today. You have 40,000 people, 40,000 men mostly, converging on this -- well, it's a very remote rural outpost.

NISSEN: Standing under the broiling sun in the original stadium -- the root of that word is stadion, meaning a place to stand -- this ancient throng saw no team sports, no women athletes. To compete, you had to be male, a free citizen and Greek, also nude. Greek Olympic athletes wore nothing but a coating of olive oil.

PERROTTET: It really appealed to the aesthetic sense of the Greeks and the vanity of the athletes. You've got these guys able to parade around like peacocks, strutting about, showing off their physiques.

NISSEN: The athletes were strictly regulated, with set training regimes and rules prohibiting use of illegal substances. Before competition, athletes had to swear an oath on a piece of boar's meat that they had not used magic.

PERROTTET: There was a concern about performance-enhancing spells. We worry about steroids. They had various potions that would improve speed or strength.

NISSEN: Speed and strength were at the heart of the main events at the ancient Games, the sprints and distance races, although there was never a marathon.

PERROTTET: The longest race they had in antiquity was the 24 laps, which was 4,800 yards, roughly three miles going back and forth around the stadium.

NISSEN: There was a pentathlon, including distance throws of the discus and the javelin and the long jump, although, in ancient times, that was done from a standing start and done to flute music. Ancient wrestling was more familiar.

PERROTTET: It is quite like Greco-Roman wrestling today, except in ancient times, foot trips were allowed.

NISSEN: Modern Olympics watchers would not have recognized other events in the ancient Games, for example, the heart-pounding, hoof- flying and often gory four-horse chariot race.

PERROTTET: It was carnage. You've got broken chariots left, right and center. There is one great story of 21 chariots starting the event and only one making it to the finishing line.

NISSEN: Other ancient Olympic events were even more violent, boxing, no ring, no weight classes, no rounds, no mercy.

PERROTTET: These guys would basically wrap leather thongs around their fists and pummel one another's heads. Body blows were actually forbidden.

NISSEN: Almost nothing was forbidden in the pankration, a vicious highlight of the ancient Games.

PERROTTET: I think the closest thing we could have to it is, it would be a combination of Thai kickboxing and no-holds-barred wrestling. The easiest way to win really is strangulation. You push them to the very edge of death and they will raise the finger to submit.

NISSEN: It was winner take all at the ancient Olympics. There was no equivalent to winning a silver or a bronze. Victors were crowned with simple olive wreaths, although, after the awards ceremonies, they collected much more.

PERROTTET: In fact, if you won at the Olympic Games, you never had to work again. Your home city would give you a massive amount of money.

NISSEN: Artists would sculpt statues of you. Your name would be recorded for the ages, Milos of Croton, Leonidas of Rhodes, Dreamus (ph) of Argos. More than 2,000 years later, the names of these ancient champions, the stories of the ancient Games live on, immortal.

Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Maybe this year it will be Phelps of California.

Back with more NEWSNIGHT in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: We're out of time. On behalf of Aaron Brown and the entire NEWSNIGHT team, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Miles O'Brien.

We'll see you again tomorrow night on NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired August 12, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
MILES O'BRIEN, CNN ANCHOR, NEWSNIGHT: Hello from Atlanta. I'm Miles O'Brien in for Aaron Brown tonight. Politics in New Jersey has long been infected by a culture of corruption. By one estimate, the Garden Sate leads the nation in the number of former mayors in Federal prison. So as we watch the burgeoning scandal surrounding Governor James McGreevey in recent months when allegations of bribes and attempts to silence witnesses, it seemed sadly familiar.
But then came the bombshell. As of this afternoon, McGreevey is now an openly gay American, out of the closet and soon to be out of politics. The plot my thicken here. There are rumblings of a lawsuit from a spurned lover but we wonder in this day and age if a 47-year- old married father of two who realizes he is gay could make such an announcement without being forced to leave political office. We wonder also will the day come ever when he could? Which brings us to the whip (ph) and Alina Cho in New York. Alina, a headline please?

ALINA CHO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, it is a political bombshell. Governor James McGreevey makes this stunning announcement about his sexuality, then abruptly resigned. It was an unprecedented day in politics, even surreal -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Thanks, Alina, see you soon. President Bush and the first lady sat down with Larry King tonight. You just saw it, probably. Suzanne Malveaux gets to write the first headline, if you please.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, often we just get that sound bite or even become numb from the familiar stump speech. But President Bush gave us much more when he and the first lady sat down for a one hour interview with our own Larry King.

O'BRIEN: Thank you Suzanne. See you soon as well. The man who would like his job also on the west coast today and frankly his campaign was on its heels over a sensitive issue. John King is with the Kerry campaign. A headline, please, sir?

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, Senator Kerry wanted to talk about the economy today. But he came under fierce attack from Vice President Cheney who seized on Senator Kerry's recent comment that he would wage a more sensitive war on terror. Vice President Cheney says sensitivity is the last thing the terrorists need. Miles.

O'BRIEN: Thank you John King. In the holy city of Najaf, Iraq, the assault is apparently on. Matthew Chance is there embedded with U.S. Marines. Matthew, a headline please. MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Miles. Thousands of U.S. forces have been deployed on the streets of Najaf to crack down on the Mehdi Army (UNINTELLIGIBLE) Muqtada al-Sadr. We'll also show you exclusive video images of U.S. Marines raiding the house of the radical Shiite cleric.

O'BRIEN: Thank you Matthew Chance. Finally the Florida Keys and the Tampa Bay area bracing tonight for an unwelcome visitor, Hurricane Charlie. Orelon Sydney, forecast a headline for us, please.

ORELON SYDNEY, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Miles, I did some research and the last time Florida was hit by two tropical cyclones in a row was October 17, 1906. Bonnie moved into the panhandle early this morning. And Charlie will be moving into the Florida Keys and then the west coast later on today. Miles.

O'BRIEN: All right. Thank you very much Orelon, back to you in a moment.

Also on the program tonight, gay marriages. A California court declares the marriages of thousands of same-sex couples invalid. The question now, how will this issue impact November elections?

And later, ancient Olympics. No steroids, no clothes for that matter. A look way back in time with the modern games upon us. A NEWSNIGHT history lesson but don't worry, no quiz.

All that and more in the hour ahead. We begin tonight with that stunning moment from the first words out of his mouth this afternoon, it was clear Jim McGreevey, the governor of New Jersey, was making very big news indeed. And beyond the facts and allegations and anguish immediately surrounding his story, what the governor said today also becomes part of a larger story at a turning point for the country. He said he is gay. Here's CNN's Alina Cho.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHO (voice-over): It was a news conference like no other -- Candid, poignant, personal.

GOV. JAMES MCGREEVEY, NEW JERSEY: At a point in every person's life, one has to look deeply into the mirror of one's soul and decide one's unique truth in the world, not as we may want to see it or hope to see it, but as it is. And so my truth is that I am a gay American.

CHO: Governor James McGreevey then announced he would resign. The hastily called news conference came after reports of a pending lawsuit. Two Democratic sources tell CNN a former aid to McGreevey is the plaintiff in a sexual harassment suit against the New Jersey governor. Flanked by his second wife Dina, even his parents, McGreevey, a father of two said he had grappled with his identity for years, was forced into what he called an acceptable reality. And ultimately, he admitted he had strayed.

MCGREEVEY: Shamefully, I engaged in adult consensual affair with another man which violates my bonds of matrimony. It was wrong, it was foolish, it was inexcusable. And for this, I ask the forgiveness and the grace of my wife.

CHO: The embattled governor is no stranger to controversy. Just last month a top McGreevey campaign contributor Charles Kushner was charged with luring grand jury witnesses into sex with prostitutes. McGreevey survived that news. This he could not escape.

MCGREEVEY: This, the 47th year of my life, it is arguably too late to have this discussion. But it is here and it is now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CHO: It was something to watch. A top adviser to Governor McGreevey told CNN that the governor wrote the announcement himself. And another Democratic strategist called the governor's remarks well delivered and well received but added, Miles, quote, given what's ahead of him, it is downhill from here. Miles?

O'BRIEN: Alina Cho in New York. Thank you very much.

Two things happened in our news rooms here in Atlanta and in New York today when Governor McGreevey made his announcement. First, no one said a word and then about a nanosecond later everybody started talking at once. Jeff Greenfield, on the other hand, started making phone calls jotting down some ideas and we're glad to have him with us tonight. Jeff, let's do a hypothetical here for a moment. Subtract just one point from today's news conference and the facts and that is the fact that he had a gay affair. What if it was heterosexual, how much would that change the story?

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: You know what Miles, it is not hypothetical. The political career of Paul Patton (ph), the governor of Kentucky was brought to a screeching halt a year or so ago when he confessed he had an affair with a woman, a nursing home operator. There are allegations, as there are here, that, of special favors done.

In the case of New Jersey, this gentleman was picked to run New Jersey's homeland security department. His credentials were challenged. He was not permitted to hold that job. He was put on the payroll, state payroll at a very high salary. So the answer to your question is based on what happened to Paul Patton who was going to run for the Senate this year and is now out of politics, I think that the gay aspect of this, while it is clearly the headline grabber, while the public acknowledgement of a governor that he's been a closeted gay for his entire life was the big wow part of it, in terms of the political impact, I think we know from past experience that this would have been just as devastating in my view had it been a woman he was involved with.

O'BRIEN: Another way of putting that, is if it was simply a statement today, I'm gay, I'm coming out of the closet and there was no other factors, you think he could have held on to his job?

GREENFIELD: Now you're into some really good hypotheticals. Here's what we know. I kind of like to work on what we know. There have been cases where other politicians have been outed and have survived. A Republican congressman in Wisconsin, Steve Gunderson was outed by a very conservative fellow Republican, won re-election the next time.

Barney Frank, probably the best known gay politician, acknowledged his homosexuality because it was about to be made public. Not only did he survive that, he survived -- we can call it a scandal, when it was revealed that he'd taken up with a male prostitute, let him perform his business in the basement of Barney Frank's home. He survived that. Whether or not a case of somebody who is married with two kids, the question might be did he conceal his sexuality from his wife? I don't know the answer to that. But I do know it is much too simple to say that, well, the gay/straight aspect is the only thing that matters here.

O'BRIEN: What about the aspect, though, of when you talk about congressmen, you mentioned three congressmen as examples. They're much more closer to the base, so to speak. And people in a district such as that feel as if they know the person. They can excuse those things. When you're the chief executive of a state, is it different?

GREENFIELD: Well, that's the point that I don't know how to answer because I have nothing on which to base it. I think it is certainly true that some -- that we don't know. That's what's certainly true. And I suspect sometime in the next couple of years an openly gay politician - look, Barney Frank may seek the Senate seat of John Kerry if Kerry is elected president. It may be different and the fact that someone is a closeted gay who was married and in effect, I hate to put it this bluntly, lived a kind of lie in public may make a difference to the public. But whether somebody who say was never married, never talked about his sexuality one way or another, then says look, I want to let you know that I'm gay and I'm running for governor. There I'd say Miles it depends on what state we're talking about. I think we're very close to that point where such a politician could succeed because the public attitude toward homosexuality over the last 25 and 30 years has changed dramatically.

O'BRIEN: All right. Thanks very much for indulging us and forcing you to predict the future a little bit. We appreciate that.

GREENFIELD: No, can't do it.

O'BRIEN: Jeff Greenfield, all the hypotheticals make it a little challenging for all of us in this business. We appreciate it.

It is fair to say Governor McGreevey's press conference was the most dramatic political story of the day but surely it wasn't the only one, of course with a presidential race on and all. The race for the oval office remains tight and the candidates seem to be traveling to the same places, presumably where those elusive undecided voters live. In the midst of all of this, President Bush and the first lady sat down with Larry King this evening for an exclusive interview. Many of you saw it stem to stern. CNN's Suzanne Malveaux joins us now in Los Angeles with the highlights. Suzanne.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Miles, here are some of the highlights. We first learned that the president believes that Kerry's military service was honorable, but he did stop short of condemning the contents of some of the ads calling into question and criticizing Kerry's military record. We also learned that the president believes that the U.S. can win the war on terror, that he says he would do it all over again if he could.

But we learn something new as well. The president addressing the criticism and even the ridicule that initially started with the movie "Fahrenheit 9/11" that moment on September 11th when President Bush was sitting before Florida school children when his chief of staff whispered in his ear that the country was under attack and that seven- minute pause that the president took before he got up to address the issue.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think what's important is how I reacted when I realized America was under attack. It didn't take me long to figure out we're at war. It didn't take me long to develop a plan that would go after al Qaeda. We went in action very quickly.

LARRY KING: So you thing the criticism was unwarranted?

BUSH: I think it is easy to second guess a moment. What is relevant is whether or not I understand and understood then the stakes. And I recognized that we were at war and I made a determination that we would do everything we could to bring those killers to justice and to protect the American people.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: And Miles, really that is at the heart of the campaign. That is the central theme essentially that President Bush believes that he is the better commander in chief, the better leader, that will be able to better protect our country. Miles.

O'BRIEN: Suzanne, Mr. and Mrs. Bush spent some time with Nancy Reagan today and there was some questions and answers on the subject of Nancy Reagan and her support for the Bushes, a lot of questions about that when you get down to that stem cell controversy.

MALVEAUX: Well, absolutely, Miles. I mean as you know, the president and the first lady disagreed with Nancy Reagan about stem cell research. Nancy Reagan believing it should be expanded a bit. But we were told that Nancy Reagan invited the president over, that she wanted to make it very clear that she was backing the president in his own campaign despite the fact that her own son was one of the keynote speakers at the Democratic convention, calling for an expansion of this type of research. But this is a time in the Republican Party and particularly the Bush administration really wants to show a united front.

O'BRIEN: Suzanne Malveaux, thank you very much.

Before he sat down with Larry King in California, President Bush campaigned in Nevada today. Senator Kerry was also in California talking about the economy, but once again Iraq dominated the rhetoric. In Ohio, Vice President Dick Cheney took aim and fired using Kerry's own words as ammunition. Here's CNN's John King.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOHN KING, CNN CORRESPONDENT: California is the biggest prize in presidential politics. At the moment, things here look good for John Kerry. And when you're up more than 10 points strategy gets simple, play to your strengths.

JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We believe that a stronger America is, in fact, built on a strong middle class.

KING: But the other side has other ideas believing Senator Kerry created an opening by promising to wage a more sensitive war on terror.

RICHARD CHENEY, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Those who threaten us and kill innocents around the world do not need to be treated more sensitively. They need to be destroyed.

KING: Senator Kerry made no mention of the attack in his economic speech and aides said he had no intention of personally responding. But when pressed after the speech, he took issue with the vice president's tone, not his criticism.

KERRY: It is sad that they can only be negative. They have nothing to say about the future vision of America. I think Americans want a positive vision for the future.

KING: In a speech at issue a week ago, Senator Kerry vowed to destroy terrorist networks. And aides say by promising to be more sensitive he simply meant more diplomatic with other countries, much as President Bush used the term six weeks after taking office.

BUSH: Precisely because America is powerful, we must be sensitive about expressing our power and influence.

KING: The Bush campaign attacks are designed to protect a critical campaign edge, a 13 point advantage over Senator Kerry when voters are asked, who would better handle terrorism.

Another Bush-Cheney strategy is daily questions about Senator Kerry's vote in favor of the Iraq war. That is more risky. It was Mr. Bush who launched the war and nearly half of Americans now think it was a mistake to send troops to Iraq. But just among Democrats, 74 percent call the war a mistake and the White House thinks the more Senator Kerry has to explain his vote, the more anti-war Democrats might become disillusioned with his candidacy.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KING: And Senator Kerry here in Oregon tonight. Senior advisers for his campaign concede the Bush/Cheney campaign has had some success in raising questions, perhaps even doubts about the senator's views on Iraq and his broader approach to the war on terrorism. These advisers attribute the attacks to a Bush White House they insist is worried but they also concede Miles, they need to do a better job of answering them.

O'BRIEN: I suppose the best defense is a good offense. Given events in Iraq and around the world, if you could make a suggestion that the tables should be turned, that the Bush campaign should be on its heels, some pretty successful campaigning, I'd say.

KING: It is one of the most interesting dilemmas and issues of this campaign. Senator Kerry believes he can score points talking about what happened after the bombs started dropping in Iraq, saying the president did not have a plan for the peace. The Bush White House believes it can mute those criticisms and put Senator Kerry on the defensive by making him explain and defend his vote to go to war. Both campaigns believe you have a polarized electorate and the winner will be the candidate who most effectively turns out his votes on Election Day and the White House is banking that if Senator Kerry is out there publicly saying, yes, I voted for the war in Iraq, then enough Democrats, even if it's just a tiny sliver Miles, will get disillusioned and not vote. They think that will help, but you're right. Senator Kerry and he just did it in this speech here, says the issue should be did the commander in chief have a plan not only to win the war and win the peace. He said this president did not. Miles.

O'BRIEN: It is interesting, John though, every poll I read shows that Americans are most concerned about the economy. And yet the debate always goes back to this. Why?

KING: Well, certainly President Bush is at a disadvantage right now when it comes to the economy which is another reason the Kerry campaign says it will focus on the economy for the next two weeks run up to the Republican convention. Some aides were very disappointed that the senator even responded at all to Dick Cheney's criticism today. They wanted him to stay focused like a laser on the economy.

They believe in the end that will be the big issue. What the Bush campaign is banking on is that because there are 140,000 U.S. troops in Iraq, still troops in Afghanistan, still the terrorist threat that come a week before the election, all Americans will sit back and think about a threshold question: do they want to change commanders in chief in the middle of a war? And the Bush campaign is banking on the fact that that answer for enough voters will be no. That is one of the key debates.

O'BRIEN: John King with the Kerry campaign. Thanks very much.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the battle for Najaf. U.S. forces launch an assault, raid the home of a radical cleric. Could this American offensive ignite a firestorm throughout the Muslim world? Live report from Najaf is next.

Also Hurricane Charlie, just hours away from bearing down on Florida. Hundreds of thousands are in harm's way. We'll give you the latest predictions for Charlie from the CNN center in Atlanta, this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: In Iraq today the long awaited push against a rebel cleric and his army began in earnest. Long awaited, perhaps long dreaded as well. Thousands of American and Iraqi lives are on the line and so is a very delicate political balance which extends far beyond the borders of Iraq. Here is CNN's Matthew Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This is how the U.S. Marines made their house call, at the gates of the Mehdi Army leader in Najaf. These are exclusive CNN images of a raid on the home of Muqtada al-Sadr. He was long gone, but this new offensive against his Mehdi forces, it was a strong message: back down or be hunted.

UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER: We are currently now moved over to this private hospital here which we believe Sadr used as another headquarters for his bodyguards and right now we've just gone through Sadr's house. The house was clean. And we're currently exploring anything be can find inside.

CHANCE: U.S. forces have now unleashed awesome power to crush the Shiite uprising. Military officials say thousands of troops backed by tanks and helicopter gun ships have been raiding Mehdi army strongholds and when the insurgents hold out, like at this Najaf school, air strikes are called in. For many Iraqis, this is overkill. The U.S. military says it's using restraint.

UNIDENTIFIED SOLDIER: The reason we're here is because the government in Najaf has asked for our help to restore law and order and control to the rightful Iraqi government. We're being very careful to stay away from the mosque area, definitely not going to do any damage there. We're using a lot of restraint in our operations.

CHANCE: On the streets of Najaf, the fighting is intense. Civilians have been urged to stay in their homes, but many have been fleeing the city. This has been a display of overwhelming U.S. firepower. But the battle for Najaf is far from won.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: That was CNN's Matthew chance in Najaf.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, tears of sorrow. Same-sex couples react to the news of a California court. Thousands of gay and lesbian marriages are no longer legal.

Also, the pageantry of the opening ceremonies of the Olympic games just hours away. We go back in time when the Olympic movement was all about blood, brutality and nudity. You heard it right. This is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: It's been just shy of a century since two big storms pounded the state of Florida back-to-back, 98 years to be precise. Tropical storm Bonnie hit this morning doing little damage to speak of. Hurricane Charlie, on the other hand, well, people from the Keys to the panhandle spent the day making ready for something a lot more consequential. The plywood went up, the bread and water were bought and people began leaving for safer ground. Authorities are urging about 800,000 people from the Keys to Tampa to evacuate and that may soon become an order. For the latest on where things stand at the moment, we turn it over to CNN's Orelon Sydney in the weather center. Hello, Orelon.

SYDNEY: Miles, thanks a lot. Right now the center of hurricane Charlie is located 200 miles south of Key West moving now to the north-northwest at about 18, 17, 18 miles an hour. The wind speed has been holding at 105 miles an hour. That's a strong category 2 storm.

The latest satellite images, though, it really looks like it is taking on a little bit more of a ragged profile. So we might actually see the winds drop a bit and then perhaps pick up again as it moves north of Cuba and moves away from the interaction with land. What we have for you currently are the warnings from the Dry Tortugas, through Key West, the seven-mile bridge, a hurricane warning is in effect and then from East Cape Sable northward to Bayport.

They also have a hurricane warning. That means hurricane conditions are expected within 24 hours and down in Key West, you believe it. Winds are up to 16 miles an hour now. But the thing that you're getting is some of the outer rain bands and even some tornado warnings. Up towards marathon we had reports of strong thunderstorms with rotation. Again, these are some of the outer rain bands moving in. We expect to see this storm perhaps as strong as category 3 across the areas of the Keys 2:00 a.m. in the morning. Miles.

O'BRIEN: Let's talk a little bit about that storm surge. That is a big concern, aside from the winds and the rain.

SYDNEY: That's exactly right and the stronger the storm is, obviously, the bigger the surge is. As this storm works its way northward towards Tampa, we're looking at potential landfall about 2:00 p.m. tomorrow, maybe as strong as category 3. That would give us a storm surge of 10 to 13 feet before it moves on off. That could be a real problem for folks obviously across the west coast, not just in Tampa. But that will be the area we think will have the strongest impact.

O'BRIEN: In some cases, it's going to be hitting at high tide, as I understand it.

SYDNEY: That's exactly correct. As it moves past Key West, the tide there I think is 8:42 in the morning so not a lot of problem there. But as we head on up the coast, the later in the day you get, the closer you're going to get to the time of high tide. So that certainly will be a problem as well.

O'BRIEN: Orelon Sydney. She's got her cot set up in the weather center. Good luck. Thank you very much.

SYDNEY: Thank you.

O'BRIEN: Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, tonight on Larry King, the president derided those who spend a lot of time talking about politics as the chattering class. Well, guilty as charged I suppose.

We'll chatter about the interview shortly.

Later, more on the explosive announcement by the New Jersey governor. He is gay and he is resigning. The announcement sure surprised us, but what about a reporter who has covered Jim McGreevey for 20 years?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

LARRY KING, HOST: What's disappointed you?

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The bitterness inside Washington. It's different than I thought. Certainly wasn't that case in Austin, Texas, when I was the governor.

KING: You were never hated there.

G. BUSH: Oh, I don't, you know, I don't pay...

KING: How do you react to that?

G. BUSH: I just don't pay that much attention to it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: The president of the United States responding to our own Larry King tonight, Mr. Bush and first lady Laura Bush there for the entire hour touching on a wide range of issues above and beyond the bitter tone in Washington.

Joining us from Washington to talk about the interview and presidential politics in general, David Sanger of "The New York Times" and Liz Marlantes of "The Christian Science Monitor."

Good to have you both with us.

LIZ MARLANTES, "THE CHRISTIAN SCIENCE MONITOR": Thank you.

DAVID SANGER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Thanks for having us.

O'BRIEN: I want to play a few clips and get your response to it.

Let's start with the first one. This one is on the subject of war.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

G. BUSH: It's painful to know that a young American has lost his or her life in combat. It's painful because I know how broken-hearted their loved ones are. We have met with their loved ones a lot.

KING: You have?

G. BUSH: You bet.

KING: Because we don't see any stories.

G. BUSH: Well, you shouldn't. These are private moments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Liz, I suppose a cynic would say, we don't see those moments because the president and the White House doesn't want to call attention to the fact that the casualty toll continues to mount there.

And what's interesting to me is, as you see events unfold in Iraq, it belies what's happening on the campaign. The Bush campaign seems to be on the offensive on this point.

MARLANTES: Absolutely. They went on the offensive on Iraq really hard this week.

It started with Bush issuing a sort of challenge to Kerry to get him to say whether he would have voted the same way knowing then what he knows now. And Kerry took the bait and said he would. And then Bush immediately cast that as a flip-flop. And they really haven't let up.

Today, you had Dick Cheney out there castigating Kerry for a comment he made earlier that he would fight a more sensitive war on terror. So this has really been -- we've seen a strong, strong push from the Bush campaign this week to really question Kerry's credentials in national security and specifically on Iraq.

Bush has really tried to seize that issue back. And you're right. In a week when casualties are continuing to mount, that there's something sort of ironic in that, but, absolutely, Kerry was the one on the defensive this week.

O'BRIEN: David, how do you explain that? Complete outmaneuvering on the part of the Bush campaign or ineptitude on the Kerry campaign?

SANGER: Well, a little bit of both. And I don't think this one is over.

I was talking to a number of people in the Kerry campaign about this yesterday, when I was writing on this topic. And what I think is interesting is that the president did exactly what Liz said, issued this challenge. Mr. Kerry did take the bait. But then the president came back and said, well, you know, Mr. Kerry and I now are in complete agreement that we needed to go to war in Iraq, which, of course, is not what Mr. Kerry's position has been.

It has been that he voted to authorize the war because he thought the president needed the maximum negotiating leverage, but then thought he would take a series of steps, which Mr. Kerry has described at some length. The difficulty for this position for Mr. Kerry is that this is hardly the kind of bumper-sticker talk that happens in presidential campaigns, particularly as they get down toward the end.

And we're now within, what, 83, 84 days. And so Mr. Kerry's had a very difficult time, I think, trying to get, to use his word, the nuance of his position out there. And the president has twisted it just enough to make nuance sound like flip-flopping.

O'BRIEN: All right, let's move on to another subject. This one is gay marriage, of course, in the news today. Let's listen for a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")

G. BUSH: it's too important an issue for judges to make that decision. And I think that one way to guarantee that traditional marriage is defined as between a man and a woman is through the constitutional process...

KING: What about the union of gays?

G. BUSH: Well, that's up to states, you know. If states choose to do that, in other words, if they want to provide legal protections for gays, that's great. That's fine. But I do not want to change the definition of marriage. I don't think our country should,

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: Liz, it's a bit of an evasive answer. Is it enough for the right wing of the GOP?

MARLANTES: I think so, yes.

I mean, Bush is really sort of where the majority of Americans are on this issue, in the sense that, you know, most Americans do not favor gay marriage. They don't want to deny rights to gays. And so Bush made clear tonight that he felt there were other ways to make sure that homosexuals get the same sort of rights as all Americans. But he cast it as a question of democracy.

This is something that Americans should make up their minds in the states and this shouldn't be left up to judges, which is sort of what he's been saying all along. And I think that is a position that will sell well in most parts of the country.

O'BRIEN: Of course, David, it's worth pointing out, there's not much daylight between Mr. Bush and Mr. Kerry on this point.

SANGER: There isn't.

And it was that answer and the answer on stem cells, Miles, that struck me that the president was using this interview to very much move right down the middle. Sometimes, when we're out on the campaign trail with him, depending on who the audience is, you hear him make an appeal that's very clearly to a more conservative, more right-wing element of the party.

But with this audience, he was clearly trying to appeal to mainstream and perhaps the swing voters. And so he took a down-the- middle road, down-the-middle road, or at least what his party would view as one. And in fact, at one point in that, he was asked by Mr. King, so what about inheritance? They couldn't do a -- if you would deny gay marriage, then you deny the rights of inheritance the way a husband and wife would have it. And he said, well, the answer to that is get rid of the inheritance tax.

O'BRIEN: I thought that was a pretty good answer, definitely.

All right, David Sanger, Liz Marlantes, thank you both very much for your time. Appreciate your instant analysis.

Still ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the fight over same-sex marriage. A California court declares thousands of marriages invalid. We'll have the story for you in just a moment.

Also, a return to Olympia, when Olympic athletes wore olive oil, just olive oil.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCGREEVEY: Makes little different that, as governor, I am gay. In fact, having the ability to truthfully set forth my identity might have enabled me to be more forthright in fulfilling and discharging my constitutional obligations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

O'BRIEN: James McGreevey has the makings of a political thoroughbred. Elected governor of New Jersey in 2001, he holds degrees from Columbia, Georgetown and Harvard and is apt to quote Aristotle or Kierkegaard or Machiavelli. Perhaps the latter might have predicted the surprising twist we witnessed today.

And perhaps Herb Jackson could as well. He is a columnist for "The Bergen Record" in New Jersey. He covered state politics there and Jim McGreevey for two decades now. He joins us tonight from Princeton.

Good to have you with us, Herb.

HERB JACKSON, COLUMNIST, "THE RECORD OF BERGEN COUNTY": Good evening.

O'BRIEN: You began the day on vacation. You ended it up here, obviously, a big story. Were you surprised?

JACKSON: Oh, you know, I don't know that anybody was really surprised to find out that Jim McGreevey was gay.

O'BRIEN: Really? JACKSON: They were stunned probably to hear him say it on live television.

O'BRIEN: All right. That had been widely rumored among reporters? And I assume there was some discussion about whether to do stories on it, right?

(CROSSTALK)

JACKSON: It's just that. It was rumors. It was just like rumors that Bill Clinton slept around. It wasn't until you had a blue dress with a stain on it that legitimate news organizations could go with it.

And what was apparently about to happen was, his lover was planning a lawsuit which was going to out the governor -- or his former lover, I should say, was planning a lawsuit. It was going to out the governor. And this man was the governor's appointee early in his term in 2002 for a job as a homeland security adviser.

And you have that happening when we're only a few months past September 11, 2001, that I think it would have been really politically crippling for the governor.

O'BRIEN: How much trouble was Jim McGreevey in politically before this came to light?

JACKSON: Oh, he was in trouble, but he wasn't in critical condition. He had some scandals involving fund-raisers. And he had some scandals involving advisers who made a lot of money right before they joined his administration, staff members. But they didn't really touch on him.

And there's some question now how far those cases will go, whether they would have touched on him, whether people might have been cutting deals that might have implicated the governor. Those are speculations. But, as it stood at the Democratic Convention, the party was united behind him for another term in 2005.

O'BRIEN: All right, you know New Jersey. You know New Jersey voters well. If the announcement had specifically just been about his personal life and the fact that he is gay and coming out of the closet, would New Jersey voters have kept him in office?

JACKSON: Well, it was, he was gay. He had had an affair as well.

I don't know. I don't know what people's reactions would have been. I think the people who would have been turned off by him being gay were already angry at him for a bill that he signed legalizing stem cell research and also a bill that New Jersey signed recognizing domestic partnerships. So that vote, if you will, was already angrily against Jim McGreevey.

Him coming out of the closet, if you would, would not have really peeled too many more people off. But I think what would have been the devastating part was that he put his lover in a job as a homeland security adviser. And the man eventually had to resign because he essentially wasn't qualified for the job.

O'BRIEN: Herb Jackson with "The Bergen County Record," thanks for your time. I guess it is not time to go back to vacation just yet. But we wish you well when you get back to it.

JACKSON: OK.

O'BRIEN: Governor McGreevey's announcement would have been astonishing regardless of the timing. But it comes in an election year, with the country deeply divided over gay marriage, a debate that's playing out in the courts, in state legislatures and at the polls. Today, California's highest court weighed in.

Reporting for us tonight, Donna Tetreault.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONNA TETREAULT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Only two weeks shy of their 10th year together, Brad Rauf (ph) and Michael Mahoney got married here at City Hall in San Francisco six months ago, or so they thought.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It changes nothing between us.

TETREAULT: Today, a California Supreme Court ruling declared their marriage invalid, along with more than 4,000 other same-sex couples.

MOLLY MCKAY, MARRIED IN CALIFORNIA: It hurts that they are talking about taking these licenses away from us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is not fair. This is not.

TETREAULT: The state court steered clear of ruling on the constitutionality of gay marriage. Its decision said, San Francisco's mayor, Gavin Newsom, lacks the authority to issue marriage licenses to gay couples. Newsom says he expected this decision.

GAVIN NEWSOM (D), MAYOR OF SAN FRANCISCO: I'm hardly surprised by it, because I'm not naive. And we never expected that this struggle would end with a Supreme Court decision today. We knew that it would begin with renewed vigor and energy.

MICHAEL MAHONEY, MARRIED IN CALIFORNIA: I don't think it is a complete setback at all. I think it is just one step. And we expect the state Supreme Court to rule on the entire issue.

TETREAULT: That will happen when the city of San Francisco challenges the constitutionality of barring gay marriage.

So, for now, the gay community has lost a battle, but the war is by no means over.

MCKAY: I'm going to have to call my wife and ask her to marry me again. We're going to have to get re-engaged.

TETREAULT: But an attorney who worked to stop the marriages altogether last February is pleased.

SCOTT LIVELY, FAMILY RIGHTS ATTORNEY: We believe that homosexuality is a sexual and family dysfunction, that it deserves to be disapproved by society.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

TETREAULT: And so tonight, the movement continues. Hundreds of same-sex couples have gathered here at San Francisco's City Hall to protest today's court ruling. Early next month, in San Francisco's Superior Court, arguments will be heard to determine whether or not gay marriage should be legalized, just as it's been legalized in Massachusetts -- Miles.

O'BRIEN: Donna, in the meantime, is there any talk of giving those 4,000 couples that got licenses a refund?

TETREAULT: Yes, there is.

And, actually, Mayor Gavin Newsom has said that people could get their refund, but he's urged them not to because he said that would only be to them saying that they're not married.

O'BRIEN: And one other thought. The taxpayers of the city of San Francisco, are they footing the bills for the court costs in all of this?

TETREAULT: At this point, it's the taxpayers.

O'BRIEN: Donna Tetreault, thank you very much. Appreciate it.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, the pageantry of the opening ceremonies of the Olympic Games, athletes coming together and the world watching. Up next, the Olympics B.C., and we don't mean before Costas.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: The 2004 Summer Olympics begin tomorrow in Athens, a modern event in a modern city in modern times, millions in corporate sponsorships, millions watching all over the globe, terror threats and drug scandals, in short, not your father's Olympic Games and definitely not your great-great-great-great-great-great-great- grandfather's either. But these are.

Here is NEWSNIGHT's Beth Nissen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BETH NISSEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): How do we know what the ancient Olympics were like? From excavations at Olympia, site of the ancient Games about 2,000 south of Athens, from a treasury of vases and statues such as those now on exhibit at the Museum of Fine Arts in Boston and at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York, and from detailed accounts written by a host of ancient sports fans.

TONY PERROTTET, AUTHOR, "THE NAKED OLYMPICS": Plato, Sophocles, Socrates, Lucian, the great orator, Herodotus, Thucydides, basically the ancient Games were woven into the very fabric of history.

NISSEN: These sources tell us that the ancient Olympics were bawdy, bloody, brutal religious spectacles in honor of Zeus.

PERROTTET: In fact, sacrifices and rituals took as much time as the athletic events.

NISSEN: To get an idea of the scene, think of a cross between a pilgrimage to Mecca, Easter mass at the Vatican and Woodstock.

PERROTTET: The ambience was very much like a badly planned rock concert today. You have 40,000 people, 40,000 men mostly, converging on this -- well, it's a very remote rural outpost.

NISSEN: Standing under the broiling sun in the original stadium -- the root of that word is stadion, meaning a place to stand -- this ancient throng saw no team sports, no women athletes. To compete, you had to be male, a free citizen and Greek, also nude. Greek Olympic athletes wore nothing but a coating of olive oil.

PERROTTET: It really appealed to the aesthetic sense of the Greeks and the vanity of the athletes. You've got these guys able to parade around like peacocks, strutting about, showing off their physiques.

NISSEN: The athletes were strictly regulated, with set training regimes and rules prohibiting use of illegal substances. Before competition, athletes had to swear an oath on a piece of boar's meat that they had not used magic.

PERROTTET: There was a concern about performance-enhancing spells. We worry about steroids. They had various potions that would improve speed or strength.

NISSEN: Speed and strength were at the heart of the main events at the ancient Games, the sprints and distance races, although there was never a marathon.

PERROTTET: The longest race they had in antiquity was the 24 laps, which was 4,800 yards, roughly three miles going back and forth around the stadium.

NISSEN: There was a pentathlon, including distance throws of the discus and the javelin and the long jump, although, in ancient times, that was done from a standing start and done to flute music. Ancient wrestling was more familiar.

PERROTTET: It is quite like Greco-Roman wrestling today, except in ancient times, foot trips were allowed.

NISSEN: Modern Olympics watchers would not have recognized other events in the ancient Games, for example, the heart-pounding, hoof- flying and often gory four-horse chariot race.

PERROTTET: It was carnage. You've got broken chariots left, right and center. There is one great story of 21 chariots starting the event and only one making it to the finishing line.

NISSEN: Other ancient Olympic events were even more violent, boxing, no ring, no weight classes, no rounds, no mercy.

PERROTTET: These guys would basically wrap leather thongs around their fists and pummel one another's heads. Body blows were actually forbidden.

NISSEN: Almost nothing was forbidden in the pankration, a vicious highlight of the ancient Games.

PERROTTET: I think the closest thing we could have to it is, it would be a combination of Thai kickboxing and no-holds-barred wrestling. The easiest way to win really is strangulation. You push them to the very edge of death and they will raise the finger to submit.

NISSEN: It was winner take all at the ancient Olympics. There was no equivalent to winning a silver or a bronze. Victors were crowned with simple olive wreaths, although, after the awards ceremonies, they collected much more.

PERROTTET: In fact, if you won at the Olympic Games, you never had to work again. Your home city would give you a massive amount of money.

NISSEN: Artists would sculpt statues of you. Your name would be recorded for the ages, Milos of Croton, Leonidas of Rhodes, Dreamus (ph) of Argos. More than 2,000 years later, the names of these ancient champions, the stories of the ancient Games live on, immortal.

Beth Nissen, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

O'BRIEN: Maybe this year it will be Phelps of California.

Back with more NEWSNIGHT in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

O'BRIEN: We're out of time. On behalf of Aaron Brown and the entire NEWSNIGHT team, thanks very much for joining us. I'm Miles O'Brien.

We'll see you again tomorrow night on NEWSNIGHT.

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