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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

Iraqi Prime Minister Gives Ultimatum to Militants Occupying Imam Ali Mosque; Kerry Reacts to Charges Against His Military Service

Aired August 19, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Daryn Kagan in for Aaron Brown.
All week Iraqis have been gathered in Baghdad trying to hammer out the first chapter of their political future and all week another group of Iraqis has been getting in the way.

Kind of think of it like this way as if the framers of the Constitution were toiling away in Philadelphia while a guerrilla army in Boston does battle with occupying forces from overseas.

So, this week the meetings took place, the votes were taken but, in the end, none of it might matter not until the situation on the ground changes in one big way and one way or another it looks like change is coming. The question tonight is when will that change happen and will it be for better or for worse?

The whip begins with the talking and the fighting and the waiting in Najaf for whatever happens next. Our Matthew Chance is there. He is joining us with a videophone tonight, Matthew a headline.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks. Well, there's fierce fighting in the streets of Najaf again between U.S. military forces and those of the Mehdi Army loyal to the radical Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Is this a final showdown between the two? We'll try and answer that question and bring you some exclusive pictures as well from inside the Imam Ali shrine where he and his men are holed up.

KAGAN: Matthew, thank you, back to you in Najaf in a moment.

On to Derry, New Hampshire, the presidential campaign and one campaign ad in particular. Today the target fired back at the ad and at President Bush as well. Dan Lothian with that story tonight, Dan your headline please.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Daryn, the controversy does continue over Senator Kerry's war record. Today he decided to fire back in a big way. This comes as a new poll released just tonight shows his support among veterans slipping -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Thank you, Dan.

And finally we will check in on the Olympics as embodied by a man and a moment that says it all. CNN's Chris Lawrence has a headline.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, one of America's newest Olympic champions got his start right here on a farm outside Milwaukee in a barn. Tonight all Hahm's (ph) friends and family tell us what they went through as he went for the gold -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Thank you, Chris, back to you later in the program.

Also coming up tonight a day of destruction one year after a suicide bomb shattered a United Nations compound in Baghdad, reflections from those who survived.

And a lesson in Greek mythology, NEWSNIGHT attempting to demystify the mystery of the marathon, Socrates and Plato have nothing on our researchers, all that and a lot more in the hour that we will spend together ahead.

We're going to begin though tonight with fresh fighting in Iraq. American forces pounded insurgents in Fallujah and most heavily in Najaf from artillery on the ground and AC-130 gunships in the sky, a message was definitely sent today this as Iraq's interim prime minister sent a message of his own, a so-called final ultimatum to the militants occupying the Imam Ali shrine and mosque in Najaf. "Leave now" is the message or else what will that answer be?

Like everything else so far in the standoff there are conflicting signs tonight, reporting from Najaf CNN's Matthew Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE (voice-over): Two weeks for fierce fighting have taken their toll on the ancient mosque itself. Two minarets have been hit with shrapnel. The mosque clock has been damaged. U.S. military officials say they're holding fire even though the Mehdi Army is attacking them from inside. Further damage could provoke a Shia backlash.

Around the mosque, though, fighting is fierce. U.S. forces are battling street to street. Despite earlier talk of compromise from Muqtada al-Sadr, his militia continues to fight. Iraq's interim government says this is the final call for his rebels to disarm.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We have heard through the media that Mr. Muqtada al-Sadr is prepared to comply with the request of the government and national conference.

We welcome such an announcement and confirm our readiness to accept this initiative of his provided that they crystallize it into a tangible and committed position through a documented declaration from him personally.

CHANCE: There is growing U.S. and Iraqi impatience though. They say they still want a political solution to end this crisis peacefully but it must come soon.

(END VIDEOTAPE) CHANCE: Well, the fierce fighting we've been seeing in the streets of Najaf over the course of the past few hours is, according to U.S. military officials, not necessarily the start of that widely anticipated assault against the Mehdi Army, against the Imam Ali shrine, although U.S. officials here in Najaf say to us that if that political decision were made they could certainly switch gears in the operation and make it an assault against the Medhi Army proper and against the Imam Ali shrine. So, this certainly could turn into a decisive phase in the battle for Najaf -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Matthew, it seems there are some problems in dealing with Muqtada al-Sadr, among them the questions about where he is exactly.

CHANCE: Well, the assumption that we're all working on, at least, is he's holed up somewhere in the area of the Imam Ali Mosque, the holiest shrine in Shia Islam and, of course, a sanctuary for hundreds of Mehdi Army soldiers who are using it as a base to launch their attacks against U.S. and Iraqi forces.

Now, I was in the control room of the U.S. Army here in Najaf for a few hours today and I was watching as mortars were being fired from inside the mosque and they've got radar tracking equipment to see this on screen.

Mortars were being fired towards U.S. forces from inside that mosque and they were holding back from actually retaliating, putting their own soldiers at risk because they didn't want to cause any damage to this mosque.

So, they say they're very sensitive to the idea of causing damage to this mosque. They certainly seem to be sensitive to it, mindful of the fact that if it's damaged it could provoke a terrible Shia backlash -- Daryn.

KAGAN: The other problem, Matthew, in dealing with Muqtada al- Sadr is trying to understand exactly what his word means. In a western sense we would expect a literal interpretation but it's hard to tell what Muqtada al-Sadr says when he agrees to some type of agreement.

CHANCE: Well, I think it has a western sense. What everybody here is looking for isn't just words but it's actions on the ground. They're looking to see the forces of Muqtada al-Sadr leave the Imam Ali shrine.

They're looking for him to come out and publicly say that he's disbanding his Mehdi Army militia and ultimately they want him to join the mainstream political process because co-opting him is in the minds of the Iraqi interim government the best way of neutralizing him as a force because, make no mistake, this is a serious challenge to the Iraqi government's authority and a serious challenge to the U.S. military here as well and both of those groups want this challenge ended as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

KAGAN: Matthew Chance, a long day of reporting for you in Najaf, thank you for that report. Well until today our view of the standoff in Najaf was strictly from the outside looking in. Today, a handful of reporters were permitted to go inside that besieged compound.

Our producer Kianne Sadeq was one of them and this is what she saw.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KIANNE SADEQ, CNN PRODUCER (voice-over): After passing through a U.S. military checkpoint we arrived at the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf's old city in the heat of the afternoon. The streets around the mosque were a scene of devastation reduced to rubble by the intense bombardments of the past few days.

As we approached, fighters of the Mehdi Army emerged from the ruined alleys and buildings. They seemed confident and determined, well armed with grenade launchers, mortars and heavy hine guns.

Most were young, in their 20s and even their teens. One group hoisted onto their shoulders the man they said was Muqtada al-Sadr's oldest fighter. Others unfurled a banner reading, "The Greatest Thing is to be a Martyr." They chanted constantly, "We love Muqtada. Long live Muqtada."

Several hundred people were crowded inside the mosque's courtyard. A few women and children paraded before us. Muqtada al- Sadr himself is reported to be in a secret location outside the mosque but his aide told us that al-Sadr would not give in to ultimatums from the Iraqi government and would only cooperate with the newly-selected national council.

They said the fighting made it impossible for Sadr to negotiate directly with the delegation from the national council. His spokesman persistently described the U.S. forces as the occupier and said it was their duty to fight for al-Sadr and defend Najaf.

During our two hour visit to the mosque, sporadic explosions echoed beyond the walls. We saw but were not allowed to film wounded members of the Mehdi Army and stockpiles of medicines but al-Sadr fighters seem prepared, if called upon, to fight to the end. Despite the destruction all around there was no sense at the Imam Ali Mosque that surrender to the Iraqi government was imminent or inevitable.

Kianne Sadeq CNN, Najaf, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Well, we focus back home now for a different kind of high stakes battle, the firefight over John Kerry's service in Vietnam and whether he earned the medals that he was awarded. His shipmates say yes. Some other vets say no. They are part of a group that has financed an attack ad to that effect and a book and a media campaign as well.

Until today the candidate kept himself out of the controversy letting his campaign answer the charges. That changed this morning, as a certain vice president might put it, big time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer. Bring it on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Well, that was the sound byte. Now here is the story as reported tonight by CNN's Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KERRY (in campaign ad): The first definition of patriotism is keeping faith with those who wear the uniform.

LOTHIAN (voice-over): In an all out effort to defend his war record, Senator John Kerry launched an attack on the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has been running a television ad in key battleground states and speaking out publicly questioning his service and medals.

KERRY: This group isn't interested in the truth. They're not telling the truth.

LOTHIAN: Speaking in Boston to some 5,000 members of the International Association of Firefighters, Kerry took the offensive saying in public what his press releases and campaign have said in response for months. Kerry also went after President Bush for not denouncing the ads.

KERRY: He wants them to do his dirty work.

LOTHIAN: The Bush campaign calls that claim false and insists the president has always considered Kerry's service in Vietnam noble. But last week on "LARRY KING LIVE," Bush passed up the opportunity to call on his supporters to back down.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I haven't seen the ad but what I do condemn is these unregulated soft money expenditures by very wealthy people.

LOTHIAN: Kerry's war record has been questioned throughout his political career but the controversy has intensified in the presidential campaign. Aides say the Senator's new aggressive response was a personal decision not a sign that the ads are taking a toll but at least one of Kerry's veteran brothers called on today to defend Kerry's record agreed the issue is a thorn in the side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most of us felt that the charges would dissipate because they're just so off the wall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To degrade him and demean him in such a manner that they are is really deplorable and sickening. Thank you.

LOTHIAN: In addition to marching out these supporters, the Kerry campaign is firing back with another 30-second ad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I expected I'd be shot. When he pulled me out of the river, he risked his life to save mine.

LOTHIAN: This aggressive response comes as the credibility of the leading veteran behind the critical Kerry ad is being questioned. Larry Thurlow, has disputed Kerry's claim of a gun battle that led to a bronze star.

But CNN has obtained Thurlow's own military record showing that, in fact, all the boats came under weapons fire in the area that day. Thurlow now says his record reflects an account written up by Kerry and calls it "a lie."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN: A new CBS poll, CBS News poll released tonight shows support among veterans slipping. It was essentially tied after the Democratic National Convention. Kerry has now lost some nine points according to the poll.

Now this comes as the campaign is rolling out those ads in three key battleground states. The campaign had not planned to do any television ads until September in order to save some money. Obviously, they are feeling some of the heat here and feel they need to get this controversy behind them -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Dan Lothian from New Hampshire, Dan thank you.

Then there was this today from the White House, spokesman Scott McClellan reiterating that the president condemns all attack ads from independent groups on both sides of the presidential race.

Beyond the back and forth some would say there is a bigger issue here in politics. Does it pay to makes charges, true of not, knowing that we in the media will still report those charges?

A question tonight for Kathleen Hall Jameson, she is the director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania. Welcome to the program. Thanks for being here.

KATHLEEN HALL JAMESON, DIRECTOR, ANNENBERG PUBLIC POLICY CENTER: It's good to be here.

KAGAN: And so, John Kerry decides today it is time to come out swinging.

JAMESON: Yes and one of the things that's important about the possibility that this ad has had an impact is the impact was not created by the time buy which was minuscule and only in three states. It was created largely by Arion cable, discussion on cable and discussion on political talk radio, which is largely conservative.

KAGAN: And by the media you might say.

JAMESON: By the media.

KAGAN: All this as you point out for an ad most people would have never seen.

JAMESON: There's a history of this. The Daly commercial of '64 was aired not -- in paid time virtually not at all, it got its coverage in news. The Willie Horton ad of '88, same thing and there was an ad in 2000 that the Bush campaign did disavow that got more air time because of the news media than it did in actual air time but, in that case, it went off the air pretty quickly when the Bush campaign said, "No, that doesn't help us."

KAGAN: Isn't this the kind of thing that turns so many Americans off to politics? I call it kind of Kindergarten politics. You did this in Vietnam. No, I didn't. But it really doesn't get to the issue of what I think most Americans care about and that is which candidate is more likely to keep America safe?

JAMESON: Now, we should be talking more about the future, less about the past and if we're going to talk about whether people serve, we ought to ask what's the relevance of that to one's vote?

It's possible to make the argument Kerry makes that having experienced combat you approach war differently but that's not the discussion that we're having here. We're not asking how this would affect the decisions one would make in the White House. We're quibbling back and forth about what documents do and do not say and in the process we're missing some other important discussions and that's what's tragic.

KAGAN: But in a way it is perhaps possible to make the argument the Kerry campaign picked this fight by focusing so much on his war record, on his military record and perhaps trying not to focus so much on his Senate career?

JAMESON: I think it's more likely that the Kerry campaign saw that there was some effect of this ad, whether through news or through direct airing, I would guess through news talk and political talk radio, and decided that it had to engage the fight and made the decision that it was going to.

It would wait until a major newspaper, the "Washington Post," as you have reported, put forth evidence that helped to discredit the ad. That meant that when the Kerry campaign attacked today, attacked Bush in the Kerry speech and announced a new ad, you'd wrap all those things back in and now the Kerry campaign would get the advantage of free news time advancing its case against that ad. We basically have a war of media manipulation here.

KAGAN: Right.

JAMESON: And the media ought to at some point say these are the issues that are focal and we ought to get back to those and spent a little less time in particular airing the ad full screen in news time which makes it look a lot like those campaigns ought to pay for that time.

KAGAN: Put the two candidates in time out maybe, you know, go to your corner until you can come out like adults and talk about the issues that Americans want to hear about.

Which leads me to my final question and that is as we're coming up on the Republican Convention, coming around the corner of Labor Day, is it going to get better do you think in terms of public discourse about issues and not nit picking that Americans care about?

JAMESON: We actually in the last weeks have had a number of major issues come forward, covered reasonably well in press when it wasn't distracted by other things. The issue about the performance of charter schools, critical to No Child Left Behind; the issue of whether we should redeploy military in Europe and Asia, these are consequential issues and we have the crisis in Najaf.

We ought to be asking how should the candidates be talking about this and how can news facilitate that dialog in a way that helps people make an informed decision.

KAGAN: Well, some 75, 74 days close left to the election. We all have time to get it right. Kathleen Hall Jameson, thank you for your time this evening.

JAMESON: You're welcome.

KAGAN: Appreciate it.

A lot more ahead on NEWSNIGHT, he comes from a famous political family so is Senator Ted Kennedy really a threat to aviation? He's been having trouble apparently getting aboard some flights.

And the day that changed the U.N. mission in Iraq, one year after a suicide bomb rips its compound in Baghdad. Survivors reflect on that tragedy.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: 9/11 and the war on terror focused attention on material witness laws and a report in today's "New York Times" raises questions about how those laws have been used. The paper cites a yet to be published report by Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union.

Among its tentative findings, 57 people have been detained as material witnesses in terrorism investigations since 9/11. Most were Muslim and the question how did their cases play out?

Eighteen were charged with a crime unrelated to terrorism. Seven were charged with a terrorism-related crime. Two were designated as enemy combatants and most, 30, faced no criminal charges at all in the end. Adam Liptak is the "New York Times" National Legal Correspondent. He wrote today's story, which starts with one young man's own story as he was arrested as a material witness last year. Good evening. Thanks for being here with us.

Let's begin with the story where you begin and that is of Abdullah (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is a former college football star in Idaho.

ADAM LIPTAK, "NEW YORK TIMES": He's an American kid. He happened to convert to Islam. He became very interested in it. He was going to go to Saudi Arabia to study Islamic doctrine and the FBI arrested him in public at Dulles National Airport, put him in handcuffs, shackled him, held him for two weeks in very high security conditions, in the same conditions that John Walker Lindh and Zacarias Moussaoui were held.

KAGAN: Did they pluck him out of nowhere? What was the interest surrounding him?

LIPTAK: The best the FBI was able to tell me is they became interested in him because he had written something on a Web site that he was interested in jihad, that he had sold the tapes of radical Muslim clerics and, you know jihad has many meanings.

I don't know what meaning he subscribed to. He told me that he was anti-Taliban, anti-bin Laden, anti-terrorism, no reason to doubt that and the very most the FBI could say about him was that he trafficked in some radical ideas but they never charged him with a crime. And also, this material witness statute under which they held him is meant to hold people for testimony in cases against others.

KAGAN: Right. I want to get back to his story in just a minute. But let's talk about material witness and how that's being changed now and how it's being used.

LIPTAK: Well, historically the idea was that if I saw a murder on the street and I had that information the government was allowed to hold me if they thought I was going to run away and not testify at trial, so I know something about somebody else.

What critics are saying is that the law is now being used to investigate me, to hold me long enough to figure out if you can charge me with a crime, so the concept becomes preventive detention. Put me on ice while you try to develop probable cause about me and critics say that's a real violation of the Constitution.

KAGAN: On the other hand, I know there's people at home right now yelling at their television, yelling at you, saying, you know what, I want this country to be safe and if this is what it takes to get somebody to put somebody else in prison and keep a bad thing from happening, well then do whatever you have to do.

LIPTAK: You're right, Daryn, stakes are very high. People have called me today to say things like that except less politely.

KAGAN: Your voicemail box was full today.

LIPTAK: Right. But one sort of answer to that is, if that's what we think, if that's what we want is to have that kind of law, a preventive detention law, England has one. You can hold people there who are suspected terrorists without charging them with a crime.

KAGAN: But call it that.

LIPTAK: Let's have that kind of law. Let's go to Congress and see if Congress wants to pass that kind of law. Don't use a different kind of law to achieve this kind of prevented detention.

KAGAN: And meanwhile you use this one young man's story to show how this kind of journey can go wrong.

LIPTAK: It really busted up this guy's life. He tells me, and I have no reason to doubt it, after he was released after a couple of weeks he was told he couldn't leave the country, had to stay within four states, and he had to move in with his in-laws, the only residence he had. His wife was waiting to join him.

So he had to move in with his in-laws, which itself is a kind of cruel and unusual punishment for some, and he said that basically ruined his life, that it's very hard for him to get a job. People treat him...

KAGAN: He's now divorced.

LIPTAK: Yes people -- or on the way.

KAGAN: Yes.

LIPTAK: People treat him like he's an ex-felon. He's got this record and yet never to this day been charged with any crime and interestingly never called to testify. Come June, lo and behold, the judge tells him, "OK, you're free to go. Try to put your life back together."

KAGAN: So, in the end, wasn't even used as a witness.

LIPTAK: Correct. So, it's a very odd and troubling thing.

KAGAN: It's a difficult road we are walking trying to balance keeping America safe but also respecting people's rights. Thank you so much, Adam Liptak. It's in today's "New York Times."

LIPTAK: Thanks.

KAGAN: Thanks for stopping by.

Well here's a sign of the new normal. In the old normal, Ted Kennedy gets an automatic upgrade to business class. Now, in the new normal, he barely makes it past the check-in counter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Tried to get on the plane back to Washington. You can't get on the plane. I went up to the desk. I said, "I've been getting on this plane, you know, for 42 years and why can't I get on the plane back to Boston -- back to Washington?" They said, "You can't get on the plane back to Washington."

So, my administrative assistant talked to the Department of Homeland Security and they said there's some mistake. It happened three more times and finally Secretary Ridge called to apologize on it.

It happened even after he called to apologize because they couldn't -- my name was on the list at the airports and with the airlines and the homeland security. He couldn't get my name off the list for a period of weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: The Senator was talking to Asa Hutchinson the Undersecretary of Homeland Security at Senate hearings on the watch list that airlines use to keep the bad guys off of their flights.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, anonymous sources the battle by reporters to keep a confidential source a secret.

And later, it was one year ago today that a suicide bomb ripped through a United Nations compound. Today, those who lived to tell reflect on the tragedy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: It was one year ago today that a truck bomb devastated the United Nations complex in Baghdad killing 22 people and wounding dozens of others. The attack highlighted the risk to aid workers and other soft targets in war zones. It also caused the U.N. to pull its staff out of Iraq for much of the past year.

With more on that here's CNN's Richard Roth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four in the afternoon, Baghdad a year ago, the United Nations, thought by many to be untouchable during conflict, is ripped apart by a suicide truck bomber at the Baghdad compound. Trapped in the rubble dashing diplomat Sergio Viera de Mello, the U.N. leader there. His Australian military aide attempted a rescue.

COL. JEFF DAVIE, AUSTRALIA: He would sign repeatedly that he could not feel his legs and he couldn't describe exactly how his legs felt. He asked for water. We couldn't provide water. We just couldn't get water in there. It was so narrow.

ROTH: Colonel Jeff Davie received a medal for his efforts that day, but Vieira de Mello and 21 others lost their lives. 100 people were wounded including New York resident Marilyn Manuel, who at first was reported dead in the blast.

MARILYN MANUEL, U.N. BOMBING SURVIVOR: All I felt was my whole body being in horrible pain. It felt like thousands of volts of electricity were going through me. I managed to will my body to get up and get out. And in the darkened hallway I found that I was soaked in blood.

ROTH: At the time of the bombing, Salim Lone was Bealo de Mello's spokesman. He survived because Bealo de Mello instructed him to write a press release down the hall.

SALIM LONE, FMR. U.N. SPOKESMAN IN BAGHDAD: It was extremely difficult at first, a lot of anger against the United Nations, not only against the terrorists and against the U.S., but a lot of anger against the United Nations for having put us in a place from which there was going to be no easy escape.

ROTH: After the bombing, the investigations. One concluded security planning for the U.N. in Baghdad was dysfunctional and sloppy. Another accused senior management here in New York of putting the entire staff at risk from the minute the decision was made to return to Iraq. In New York, construction is under way for a stronger perimeter fence. In Baghdad, there were gaps the trucker, loaded with explosives, could penetrate.

CATHERINE BERTINI, U.N. UNDERSECRETARY GEN. FOR MGMT: We all are having to work through how security works in this world in which we now live and how the U.N. works in that world.

ROTH: Al Qaeda supporters have threatened the U.N. including Secretary-General Kofi Annan. Richard Roth, CNN, the United Nations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: There's a new wrinkle tonight in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal. The British medical journal "The Lancet" is alleging that doctors and other health workers were involved in abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib and also at the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The article cites government documents and news reports that found medical personnel who were responsible for treating prisoners failed to protect detainees' human rights and sometimes collaborated with interrogators or with abusive guards. The journal also alleges they failed to properly report injuries or deaths caused by beatings. Today the Pentagon denied those allegations, saying the article was not based on first hand investigations or accounts.

Iran is also making news tonight. Speaking on Al Jazeera today, Iran's defense minister issued a stark warning. If his country detects an imminent threat from American forces in Iraq, it will strike first against Iraq and Israel.

And in Gaza tonight we're getting early reports that Israeli forces are back on the move. Palestinian officials tell us 25 tanks supported by Apache helicopters have entered a refugee camp in southern Gaza. No word yet on why.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, freedom of the press, the battle between journalists and the courts.

Also NEWSNIGHT goes back in time to demystify the mystery of the marathon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: You can call it the summer of contempt, at least 10 reporters are facing jail time or substantial fines tonight for refusing to name anonymous sources in connection with three Federal court cases. They've all been held in contempt of court, including five reporters charged yesterday for refusing to reveal who gave them information about Wen Ho Lee. You might remember Mr. Lee is a scientist who was accused of spying but was later cleared of that charge.

We are joined now in Washington by Geneva Overholser. She teaches at the Missouri School of Journalism and she's a former ombudsman for the "Washington Post," also served as the editor of the "Des Moines Register." Good morning -- that's when I'm usually on. Good evening.

GENEVA OVERHOLSER, MISSOURI SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM: Good evening.

KAGAN: Let's start with getting the time of day right. That's a good way to start for a reporter. These journalists, if the case is over against Wen Ho Lee, how did they end up getting hauled before a judge?

Well, that is, of course, an important question. The original wrongdoing in all these cases you've mentioned, I would say, Daryn has to do with government officials who leaked information anonymously. And what's happening now is that others want to know who were those leakers? The problem for us journalists and I would say even for the public is that they're going to journalists to try to find out who the leakers were.

KAGAN: So what happened about one of the first things I learned about in journalism class and that was reporter's privilege. You're not supposed to have to tell who your sources are.

OVERHOLSER: And for a very good reason, as you no doubt learned in journalism class, because people, let's say, whistle blowers who might have important information that the public needs to know are going to be fearful about coming to you or to me in my old days as a journalist if I can't promise them that I will protect their identities. Their jobs may be at risk, their livelihoods, their lives could be at risk. And therefore, we are taught as journalists that we will go to jail before we will expose those identities.

KAGAN: I went to kind of a practical idea when I was reading about this story. Five journalists, five very different media organizations with this information. Five journalists saying that they won't give it up. But somebody has some very loose lips if they're talking to five different journalists. This isn't just one journalist on the hot seat, so it seemed that it wouldn't be too difficult to get the information that this individual is looking to get? OVERHOLSER: That is, of course, what I would wish would happen. If the courts had been able to get this information in all the various cases you're talking about from government officials who, after all, were the ones who committed the original wrongdoing. I must say I do have something of a problem with the journalistic ethics in some of these cases because we compound the wrongdoing by letting people attack others with impunity sometimes. But I don't think we can correct that problem by doing away with this very important ability for reporters to protect their sources, or they could just be turned into another information gathering arm of the government.

KAGAN: Well, and how serious are these charges? What could they potentially face?

OVERHOLSER: Oh, I think very serious in the case of Matthew Cooper of "Time" magazine and the Robert Novak, Valerie Plane (ph), Joe Wilson case, he may well go to jail. I wouldn't be at all surprised and in the case of these Wen Ho Lee reporters, certainly heavy fines. And I believe all these reporters will do whatever they have to do to protect their sources. And frankly, I think although we call it reporter's privilege, it is important that the public understand that this is a privilege that really serves their needs in terms of future whistle blowers who may come to journalists to tell the things that the public needs to know.

KAGAN: And what would Wen Ho Lee say however? He's the one trying to get the information from these five journalists. He had these charges. Somebody said something and ultimately he did didn't face any charges. He wants to know who's saying things about him. Does he not have that right to get that information?

OVERHOLSER: Yes, I don't really blame him. I mean certainly his privacy seems to me to have been violated. It appears that there were officials in several different departments of the government who violated it and it would be my hope that the courts could determine who those officials were without ever getting this reporter's privilege.

KAGAN: Geneva Overholser, thank you for your time.

OVERHOLSER: Thank you.

KAGAN: ... this evening. Before we go to break though, a few more items from around the country and the world starting with Iraq and a question of money, a lot of money. According to a draft audit by the coalition provisional authority, $8.8 billion given to Iraqi ministries cannot be fully accounted for. The money principally came from proceeds of Iraqi oil sales. The Pentagon underscoring the preliminary nature of the unreleased report called it premature to comment on specifics.

A scare today at a place with enough terrifying memories already, Columbine High School in Colorado. Students were evacuated today. A teacher and three students taken to the hospital after the teacher accidentally spilled a bit of nitric acid during a chemistry experiment. And on Wall Street today, the initial results of an economic experiment. In Google's first day of public trading, investors snapped it up, driving the price of a share up 18 percent to a cool $100.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, Paul Hamm thrilled us with his victory though he had to snatch it literally from the agony of defeat. Now his home town is raving over its local hero.

Also, it started with one truck, then another, and another until, well, we'll tell you how this one ended. That's coming up on NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: In Athens, the crowds may be smaller than at past Olympics, but the victories are no less sweet for the athletes. Among the high points today for the Americans, in the women's 200 meter breaststroke, the U.S. swimmer Amanda Beard won her first individual gold medal and set a record as well. In gymnastics, 16-year old Carly Patterson took the gold in the women's all around event, becoming the first American woman gymnast to win gold since Mary Lou Retton did it 20 years ago.

And swimmer Michael Phelps grabbed his fourth piece of gold, this time in the 200 meter individual medley. He's won two bronzes so far as well and has two events still to go for him.

Well, it was quite a day for all of them. The story though that still has everyone talking more than 24 hours later is the remarkable comeback of gymnast Paul Hamm. Here is CNN's Chris Lawrence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS LAWRENCE, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The story that eventually ends in Olympic gold begins here, with the Blackshirts of Waukesha South, a Wisconsin, high school. It is where Paul Hamm and his twin brother both got their start.

MARK HANSEN, WAUKESHA SOUTH PRINCIPAL: Very proud of them. They embody what it means to persevere.

LAWRENCE: That was evident Wednesday in Athens. After wringing up high scores in his first three events in the all-around final, Paul vaulted into first place. Just as quickly, his family watched as he tumbled (UNINTILLIGIBLE).

JEAN CARPENTER MOORING, HAMM'S GRANDMOTHER: Oh, that was devastating.

PAUL HAMM, HAMM'S UNCLE: My heart broke. I said, he's great. He did wonderful. The best he could, OK.

LAWRENCE: Even Hamm himself almost lost hope.

PAUL HAMM, GOLD MEDAL WINNER: After I had that mistake on vault, I thought for sure that I had cost myself any medal, really. LAWRENCE: But Hamm had been tested before, by years of hard work at home.

MORGAN BUTLER, FAMILY FRIEND: We've taken to calling it the Olympic barn now.

LAWRENCE: Family friend Morgan Butler watched the twins grow up on this farm training with whatever they could. Their dad turned a railing into parallel bars, set up a trampoline in the barn and built a pommel horse from an old maple tree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Time wise and money wise and everything, it's a lot of investment for the parents. But it sure paid off.

LAWRENCE: In a way no one could have imagined, with the high bar his last hope, Hamm stuck the performance of his life, winning gold by 0.012 of a point.

HAMM: You probably daydream about winning the Olympics thousands of times and I did not ever picture myself having a mistake and then winning.

LAWRENCE: But there's no mistaking now. This town is home to a true Olympic champion. Chris Lawrence, CNN, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And congratulations to him.

A leg injury forced the second fastest marathon runner of all time - we're talking about Sammy Korir of Kenya. He had to pull out of the Olympics today. An administrative blunder is adding salt to that wound. Kenya apparently failed to name a backup for the event. When the race begins this week, actually a week from this Sunday, two other Kenyans will be at the starting line. For all the runners, there is something special about the marathon. It is a homecoming sort of. Here is CNN's Michael Holmes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One of the delights of an Athens Olympics is the return of at least some sports to their ancient home. Welcome to Marathon, about 26 miles from Athens. No medals for guessing that's how a certain race ended up roughly the same distance with exactly the same name. But at the risk of starting a debate among amateur sports and history buffs, time now for a little mythology lesson.

Let's go back to 490 B.C. when outnumber Athenian and Pantheon soldiers defeated the Persian invaders right over there near the ocean. The Athenian side won that famous battle. Under this mound, the bodies of the soldiers who fought so well. Buried with them, though, the myth of who ran where to tell who what. Most widely believed, the outnumbered Athenians knew they needed help before the battle. ALEXANDER KITROEFF, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR: Therefore, they sent this runner (UNINTELLIGIBLE) down south to Sparta to tell the Spartans that the Athenians were facing this threat and enlist their support.

HOLMES: But another popular legend says Pheidippides was sent to Athens after the battle where he famously uttered the words, rejoice, we conquer and promptly died of exhaustion. The problem is, most historians now believe that probably didn't happen.

KITROEFF: We know the city was alerted somehow, but we don't have any actual evidence about someone running from Marathon to the city.

HOLMES: But as Socrates once may have said, whatever. The Marathon is named after this place and it is about the same distance as that of marathon to Athens. And it will end in the same stadium where the marathon ended back in 1896, the last time the Olympics were here.

(on-camera): Of course, today's athletes should feel fortunate that they are not Pheidippides. If it were the Spartathon instead of the marathon, instead of running 26 miles that way to Athens, they'd have to keep right on going another 124 miles to Sparta in order to win the gold. Michael Holmes, CNN, Marathon, Greece.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: All right. This is the time of the program where you need to picture yourself driving down a country road in New England where you happen upon acres and acres of antique trucks. Would you slow down? Would you stop? Our Boston cameraman Bob Crowley did. Here's what he saw.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE #1: It's always been here, probably always will be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It does draw some people into the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something you don't see every day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE #2: It's a part of the town of Hillsboro.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every now and then somebody pops up and asks where the truck museum is.

UNIDENTIFIED TRUCK OWNER: There's way over 100 the last time I counted. There's nothing I ever wanted. I never wanted a collection. It just ended up that way. I just wanted one truck to start with, about '54 that I bought the first one, this collection. I swore I wasn't going to buy any more back in 1960, but I've been buying them ever since. Today they're pleasure cars with truck tires. These things you had to work to run them.

This was the one that actually started the collection. That's a bulldog which is a rare one, an old tank truck come out of Massachusetts. This one I got for $50 but you can't find one for $50 today. Most of them here I've had some kind of a memory of. Most of them I worked around, worked with, some of them I drove over the years. I don't mind seeing a dent in them because most of the trucks I drove had dents in them somewhere. There's everything in here. Most of them would run after a little tinkering and a little work on them.

It's for a love of old trucks. I was born around trucks, was near them all my life. That worked. I'm not for show. I don't take them anywhere. I just fix them up because I like to see them. It just runs good, a good old engine. They say, why don't you go to truck shows? I says, I don't. If I want to see a truck, I can come out here. Everybody asks me, what's going to happen to this collection when you go? I don't know. That's somebody else's problem.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: I'm glad we got a look tonight. We're back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: And now let's check in with Bill Hemmer for a look at what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired August 19, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DARYN KAGAN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening. I'm Daryn Kagan in for Aaron Brown.
All week Iraqis have been gathered in Baghdad trying to hammer out the first chapter of their political future and all week another group of Iraqis has been getting in the way.

Kind of think of it like this way as if the framers of the Constitution were toiling away in Philadelphia while a guerrilla army in Boston does battle with occupying forces from overseas.

So, this week the meetings took place, the votes were taken but, in the end, none of it might matter not until the situation on the ground changes in one big way and one way or another it looks like change is coming. The question tonight is when will that change happen and will it be for better or for worse?

The whip begins with the talking and the fighting and the waiting in Najaf for whatever happens next. Our Matthew Chance is there. He is joining us with a videophone tonight, Matthew a headline.

MATTHEW CHANCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Thanks. Well, there's fierce fighting in the streets of Najaf again between U.S. military forces and those of the Mehdi Army loyal to the radical Shia cleric Muqtada al-Sadr.

Is this a final showdown between the two? We'll try and answer that question and bring you some exclusive pictures as well from inside the Imam Ali shrine where he and his men are holed up.

KAGAN: Matthew, thank you, back to you in Najaf in a moment.

On to Derry, New Hampshire, the presidential campaign and one campaign ad in particular. Today the target fired back at the ad and at President Bush as well. Dan Lothian with that story tonight, Dan your headline please.

DAN LOTHIAN, CNN BOSTON BUREAU CHIEF: Well, Daryn, the controversy does continue over Senator Kerry's war record. Today he decided to fire back in a big way. This comes as a new poll released just tonight shows his support among veterans slipping -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Thank you, Dan.

And finally we will check in on the Olympics as embodied by a man and a moment that says it all. CNN's Chris Lawrence has a headline.

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Daryn, one of America's newest Olympic champions got his start right here on a farm outside Milwaukee in a barn. Tonight all Hahm's (ph) friends and family tell us what they went through as he went for the gold -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Thank you, Chris, back to you later in the program.

Also coming up tonight a day of destruction one year after a suicide bomb shattered a United Nations compound in Baghdad, reflections from those who survived.

And a lesson in Greek mythology, NEWSNIGHT attempting to demystify the mystery of the marathon, Socrates and Plato have nothing on our researchers, all that and a lot more in the hour that we will spend together ahead.

We're going to begin though tonight with fresh fighting in Iraq. American forces pounded insurgents in Fallujah and most heavily in Najaf from artillery on the ground and AC-130 gunships in the sky, a message was definitely sent today this as Iraq's interim prime minister sent a message of his own, a so-called final ultimatum to the militants occupying the Imam Ali shrine and mosque in Najaf. "Leave now" is the message or else what will that answer be?

Like everything else so far in the standoff there are conflicting signs tonight, reporting from Najaf CNN's Matthew Chance.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHANCE (voice-over): Two weeks for fierce fighting have taken their toll on the ancient mosque itself. Two minarets have been hit with shrapnel. The mosque clock has been damaged. U.S. military officials say they're holding fire even though the Mehdi Army is attacking them from inside. Further damage could provoke a Shia backlash.

Around the mosque, though, fighting is fierce. U.S. forces are battling street to street. Despite earlier talk of compromise from Muqtada al-Sadr, his militia continues to fight. Iraq's interim government says this is the final call for his rebels to disarm.

AYAD ALLAWI, IRAQI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): We have heard through the media that Mr. Muqtada al-Sadr is prepared to comply with the request of the government and national conference.

We welcome such an announcement and confirm our readiness to accept this initiative of his provided that they crystallize it into a tangible and committed position through a documented declaration from him personally.

CHANCE: There is growing U.S. and Iraqi impatience though. They say they still want a political solution to end this crisis peacefully but it must come soon.

(END VIDEOTAPE) CHANCE: Well, the fierce fighting we've been seeing in the streets of Najaf over the course of the past few hours is, according to U.S. military officials, not necessarily the start of that widely anticipated assault against the Mehdi Army, against the Imam Ali shrine, although U.S. officials here in Najaf say to us that if that political decision were made they could certainly switch gears in the operation and make it an assault against the Medhi Army proper and against the Imam Ali shrine. So, this certainly could turn into a decisive phase in the battle for Najaf -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Matthew, it seems there are some problems in dealing with Muqtada al-Sadr, among them the questions about where he is exactly.

CHANCE: Well, the assumption that we're all working on, at least, is he's holed up somewhere in the area of the Imam Ali Mosque, the holiest shrine in Shia Islam and, of course, a sanctuary for hundreds of Mehdi Army soldiers who are using it as a base to launch their attacks against U.S. and Iraqi forces.

Now, I was in the control room of the U.S. Army here in Najaf for a few hours today and I was watching as mortars were being fired from inside the mosque and they've got radar tracking equipment to see this on screen.

Mortars were being fired towards U.S. forces from inside that mosque and they were holding back from actually retaliating, putting their own soldiers at risk because they didn't want to cause any damage to this mosque.

So, they say they're very sensitive to the idea of causing damage to this mosque. They certainly seem to be sensitive to it, mindful of the fact that if it's damaged it could provoke a terrible Shia backlash -- Daryn.

KAGAN: The other problem, Matthew, in dealing with Muqtada al- Sadr is trying to understand exactly what his word means. In a western sense we would expect a literal interpretation but it's hard to tell what Muqtada al-Sadr says when he agrees to some type of agreement.

CHANCE: Well, I think it has a western sense. What everybody here is looking for isn't just words but it's actions on the ground. They're looking to see the forces of Muqtada al-Sadr leave the Imam Ali shrine.

They're looking for him to come out and publicly say that he's disbanding his Mehdi Army militia and ultimately they want him to join the mainstream political process because co-opting him is in the minds of the Iraqi interim government the best way of neutralizing him as a force because, make no mistake, this is a serious challenge to the Iraqi government's authority and a serious challenge to the U.S. military here as well and both of those groups want this challenge ended as quickly and as efficiently as possible.

KAGAN: Matthew Chance, a long day of reporting for you in Najaf, thank you for that report. Well until today our view of the standoff in Najaf was strictly from the outside looking in. Today, a handful of reporters were permitted to go inside that besieged compound.

Our producer Kianne Sadeq was one of them and this is what she saw.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KIANNE SADEQ, CNN PRODUCER (voice-over): After passing through a U.S. military checkpoint we arrived at the Imam Ali Mosque in Najaf's old city in the heat of the afternoon. The streets around the mosque were a scene of devastation reduced to rubble by the intense bombardments of the past few days.

As we approached, fighters of the Mehdi Army emerged from the ruined alleys and buildings. They seemed confident and determined, well armed with grenade launchers, mortars and heavy hine guns.

Most were young, in their 20s and even their teens. One group hoisted onto their shoulders the man they said was Muqtada al-Sadr's oldest fighter. Others unfurled a banner reading, "The Greatest Thing is to be a Martyr." They chanted constantly, "We love Muqtada. Long live Muqtada."

Several hundred people were crowded inside the mosque's courtyard. A few women and children paraded before us. Muqtada al- Sadr himself is reported to be in a secret location outside the mosque but his aide told us that al-Sadr would not give in to ultimatums from the Iraqi government and would only cooperate with the newly-selected national council.

They said the fighting made it impossible for Sadr to negotiate directly with the delegation from the national council. His spokesman persistently described the U.S. forces as the occupier and said it was their duty to fight for al-Sadr and defend Najaf.

During our two hour visit to the mosque, sporadic explosions echoed beyond the walls. We saw but were not allowed to film wounded members of the Mehdi Army and stockpiles of medicines but al-Sadr fighters seem prepared, if called upon, to fight to the end. Despite the destruction all around there was no sense at the Imam Ali Mosque that surrender to the Iraqi government was imminent or inevitable.

Kianne Sadeq CNN, Najaf, Iraq.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: Well, we focus back home now for a different kind of high stakes battle, the firefight over John Kerry's service in Vietnam and whether he earned the medals that he was awarded. His shipmates say yes. Some other vets say no. They are part of a group that has financed an attack ad to that effect and a book and a media campaign as well.

Until today the candidate kept himself out of the controversy letting his campaign answer the charges. That changed this morning, as a certain vice president might put it, big time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The president keeps telling people he would never question my service to our country. Instead, he watches as a Republican-funded attack group does just that. Well, if he wants to have a debate about our service in Vietnam, here is my answer. Bring it on.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: Well, that was the sound byte. Now here is the story as reported tonight by CNN's Dan Lothian.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KERRY (in campaign ad): The first definition of patriotism is keeping faith with those who wear the uniform.

LOTHIAN (voice-over): In an all out effort to defend his war record, Senator John Kerry launched an attack on the group Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, which has been running a television ad in key battleground states and speaking out publicly questioning his service and medals.

KERRY: This group isn't interested in the truth. They're not telling the truth.

LOTHIAN: Speaking in Boston to some 5,000 members of the International Association of Firefighters, Kerry took the offensive saying in public what his press releases and campaign have said in response for months. Kerry also went after President Bush for not denouncing the ads.

KERRY: He wants them to do his dirty work.

LOTHIAN: The Bush campaign calls that claim false and insists the president has always considered Kerry's service in Vietnam noble. But last week on "LARRY KING LIVE," Bush passed up the opportunity to call on his supporters to back down.

GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I haven't seen the ad but what I do condemn is these unregulated soft money expenditures by very wealthy people.

LOTHIAN: Kerry's war record has been questioned throughout his political career but the controversy has intensified in the presidential campaign. Aides say the Senator's new aggressive response was a personal decision not a sign that the ads are taking a toll but at least one of Kerry's veteran brothers called on today to defend Kerry's record agreed the issue is a thorn in the side.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Most of us felt that the charges would dissipate because they're just so off the wall.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To degrade him and demean him in such a manner that they are is really deplorable and sickening. Thank you.

LOTHIAN: In addition to marching out these supporters, the Kerry campaign is firing back with another 30-second ad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I expected I'd be shot. When he pulled me out of the river, he risked his life to save mine.

LOTHIAN: This aggressive response comes as the credibility of the leading veteran behind the critical Kerry ad is being questioned. Larry Thurlow, has disputed Kerry's claim of a gun battle that led to a bronze star.

But CNN has obtained Thurlow's own military record showing that, in fact, all the boats came under weapons fire in the area that day. Thurlow now says his record reflects an account written up by Kerry and calls it "a lie."

(END VIDEOTAPE)

LOTHIAN: A new CBS poll, CBS News poll released tonight shows support among veterans slipping. It was essentially tied after the Democratic National Convention. Kerry has now lost some nine points according to the poll.

Now this comes as the campaign is rolling out those ads in three key battleground states. The campaign had not planned to do any television ads until September in order to save some money. Obviously, they are feeling some of the heat here and feel they need to get this controversy behind them -- Daryn.

KAGAN: Dan Lothian from New Hampshire, Dan thank you.

Then there was this today from the White House, spokesman Scott McClellan reiterating that the president condemns all attack ads from independent groups on both sides of the presidential race.

Beyond the back and forth some would say there is a bigger issue here in politics. Does it pay to makes charges, true of not, knowing that we in the media will still report those charges?

A question tonight for Kathleen Hall Jameson, she is the director of the Annenberg Public Policy Center at the University of Pennsylvania. Welcome to the program. Thanks for being here.

KATHLEEN HALL JAMESON, DIRECTOR, ANNENBERG PUBLIC POLICY CENTER: It's good to be here.

KAGAN: And so, John Kerry decides today it is time to come out swinging.

JAMESON: Yes and one of the things that's important about the possibility that this ad has had an impact is the impact was not created by the time buy which was minuscule and only in three states. It was created largely by Arion cable, discussion on cable and discussion on political talk radio, which is largely conservative.

KAGAN: And by the media you might say.

JAMESON: By the media.

KAGAN: All this as you point out for an ad most people would have never seen.

JAMESON: There's a history of this. The Daly commercial of '64 was aired not -- in paid time virtually not at all, it got its coverage in news. The Willie Horton ad of '88, same thing and there was an ad in 2000 that the Bush campaign did disavow that got more air time because of the news media than it did in actual air time but, in that case, it went off the air pretty quickly when the Bush campaign said, "No, that doesn't help us."

KAGAN: Isn't this the kind of thing that turns so many Americans off to politics? I call it kind of Kindergarten politics. You did this in Vietnam. No, I didn't. But it really doesn't get to the issue of what I think most Americans care about and that is which candidate is more likely to keep America safe?

JAMESON: Now, we should be talking more about the future, less about the past and if we're going to talk about whether people serve, we ought to ask what's the relevance of that to one's vote?

It's possible to make the argument Kerry makes that having experienced combat you approach war differently but that's not the discussion that we're having here. We're not asking how this would affect the decisions one would make in the White House. We're quibbling back and forth about what documents do and do not say and in the process we're missing some other important discussions and that's what's tragic.

KAGAN: But in a way it is perhaps possible to make the argument the Kerry campaign picked this fight by focusing so much on his war record, on his military record and perhaps trying not to focus so much on his Senate career?

JAMESON: I think it's more likely that the Kerry campaign saw that there was some effect of this ad, whether through news or through direct airing, I would guess through news talk and political talk radio, and decided that it had to engage the fight and made the decision that it was going to.

It would wait until a major newspaper, the "Washington Post," as you have reported, put forth evidence that helped to discredit the ad. That meant that when the Kerry campaign attacked today, attacked Bush in the Kerry speech and announced a new ad, you'd wrap all those things back in and now the Kerry campaign would get the advantage of free news time advancing its case against that ad. We basically have a war of media manipulation here.

KAGAN: Right.

JAMESON: And the media ought to at some point say these are the issues that are focal and we ought to get back to those and spent a little less time in particular airing the ad full screen in news time which makes it look a lot like those campaigns ought to pay for that time.

KAGAN: Put the two candidates in time out maybe, you know, go to your corner until you can come out like adults and talk about the issues that Americans want to hear about.

Which leads me to my final question and that is as we're coming up on the Republican Convention, coming around the corner of Labor Day, is it going to get better do you think in terms of public discourse about issues and not nit picking that Americans care about?

JAMESON: We actually in the last weeks have had a number of major issues come forward, covered reasonably well in press when it wasn't distracted by other things. The issue about the performance of charter schools, critical to No Child Left Behind; the issue of whether we should redeploy military in Europe and Asia, these are consequential issues and we have the crisis in Najaf.

We ought to be asking how should the candidates be talking about this and how can news facilitate that dialog in a way that helps people make an informed decision.

KAGAN: Well, some 75, 74 days close left to the election. We all have time to get it right. Kathleen Hall Jameson, thank you for your time this evening.

JAMESON: You're welcome.

KAGAN: Appreciate it.

A lot more ahead on NEWSNIGHT, he comes from a famous political family so is Senator Ted Kennedy really a threat to aviation? He's been having trouble apparently getting aboard some flights.

And the day that changed the U.N. mission in Iraq, one year after a suicide bomb rips its compound in Baghdad. Survivors reflect on that tragedy.

From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: 9/11 and the war on terror focused attention on material witness laws and a report in today's "New York Times" raises questions about how those laws have been used. The paper cites a yet to be published report by Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union.

Among its tentative findings, 57 people have been detained as material witnesses in terrorism investigations since 9/11. Most were Muslim and the question how did their cases play out?

Eighteen were charged with a crime unrelated to terrorism. Seven were charged with a terrorism-related crime. Two were designated as enemy combatants and most, 30, faced no criminal charges at all in the end. Adam Liptak is the "New York Times" National Legal Correspondent. He wrote today's story, which starts with one young man's own story as he was arrested as a material witness last year. Good evening. Thanks for being here with us.

Let's begin with the story where you begin and that is of Abdullah (UNINTELLIGIBLE). This is a former college football star in Idaho.

ADAM LIPTAK, "NEW YORK TIMES": He's an American kid. He happened to convert to Islam. He became very interested in it. He was going to go to Saudi Arabia to study Islamic doctrine and the FBI arrested him in public at Dulles National Airport, put him in handcuffs, shackled him, held him for two weeks in very high security conditions, in the same conditions that John Walker Lindh and Zacarias Moussaoui were held.

KAGAN: Did they pluck him out of nowhere? What was the interest surrounding him?

LIPTAK: The best the FBI was able to tell me is they became interested in him because he had written something on a Web site that he was interested in jihad, that he had sold the tapes of radical Muslim clerics and, you know jihad has many meanings.

I don't know what meaning he subscribed to. He told me that he was anti-Taliban, anti-bin Laden, anti-terrorism, no reason to doubt that and the very most the FBI could say about him was that he trafficked in some radical ideas but they never charged him with a crime. And also, this material witness statute under which they held him is meant to hold people for testimony in cases against others.

KAGAN: Right. I want to get back to his story in just a minute. But let's talk about material witness and how that's being changed now and how it's being used.

LIPTAK: Well, historically the idea was that if I saw a murder on the street and I had that information the government was allowed to hold me if they thought I was going to run away and not testify at trial, so I know something about somebody else.

What critics are saying is that the law is now being used to investigate me, to hold me long enough to figure out if you can charge me with a crime, so the concept becomes preventive detention. Put me on ice while you try to develop probable cause about me and critics say that's a real violation of the Constitution.

KAGAN: On the other hand, I know there's people at home right now yelling at their television, yelling at you, saying, you know what, I want this country to be safe and if this is what it takes to get somebody to put somebody else in prison and keep a bad thing from happening, well then do whatever you have to do.

LIPTAK: You're right, Daryn, stakes are very high. People have called me today to say things like that except less politely.

KAGAN: Your voicemail box was full today.

LIPTAK: Right. But one sort of answer to that is, if that's what we think, if that's what we want is to have that kind of law, a preventive detention law, England has one. You can hold people there who are suspected terrorists without charging them with a crime.

KAGAN: But call it that.

LIPTAK: Let's have that kind of law. Let's go to Congress and see if Congress wants to pass that kind of law. Don't use a different kind of law to achieve this kind of prevented detention.

KAGAN: And meanwhile you use this one young man's story to show how this kind of journey can go wrong.

LIPTAK: It really busted up this guy's life. He tells me, and I have no reason to doubt it, after he was released after a couple of weeks he was told he couldn't leave the country, had to stay within four states, and he had to move in with his in-laws, the only residence he had. His wife was waiting to join him.

So he had to move in with his in-laws, which itself is a kind of cruel and unusual punishment for some, and he said that basically ruined his life, that it's very hard for him to get a job. People treat him...

KAGAN: He's now divorced.

LIPTAK: Yes people -- or on the way.

KAGAN: Yes.

LIPTAK: People treat him like he's an ex-felon. He's got this record and yet never to this day been charged with any crime and interestingly never called to testify. Come June, lo and behold, the judge tells him, "OK, you're free to go. Try to put your life back together."

KAGAN: So, in the end, wasn't even used as a witness.

LIPTAK: Correct. So, it's a very odd and troubling thing.

KAGAN: It's a difficult road we are walking trying to balance keeping America safe but also respecting people's rights. Thank you so much, Adam Liptak. It's in today's "New York Times."

LIPTAK: Thanks.

KAGAN: Thanks for stopping by.

Well here's a sign of the new normal. In the old normal, Ted Kennedy gets an automatic upgrade to business class. Now, in the new normal, he barely makes it past the check-in counter.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SEN. EDWARD KENNEDY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: Tried to get on the plane back to Washington. You can't get on the plane. I went up to the desk. I said, "I've been getting on this plane, you know, for 42 years and why can't I get on the plane back to Boston -- back to Washington?" They said, "You can't get on the plane back to Washington."

So, my administrative assistant talked to the Department of Homeland Security and they said there's some mistake. It happened three more times and finally Secretary Ridge called to apologize on it.

It happened even after he called to apologize because they couldn't -- my name was on the list at the airports and with the airlines and the homeland security. He couldn't get my name off the list for a period of weeks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KAGAN: The Senator was talking to Asa Hutchinson the Undersecretary of Homeland Security at Senate hearings on the watch list that airlines use to keep the bad guys off of their flights.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT, anonymous sources the battle by reporters to keep a confidential source a secret.

And later, it was one year ago today that a suicide bomb ripped through a United Nations compound. Today, those who lived to tell reflect on the tragedy.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: It was one year ago today that a truck bomb devastated the United Nations complex in Baghdad killing 22 people and wounding dozens of others. The attack highlighted the risk to aid workers and other soft targets in war zones. It also caused the U.N. to pull its staff out of Iraq for much of the past year.

With more on that here's CNN's Richard Roth.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SR. UNITED NATIONS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Four in the afternoon, Baghdad a year ago, the United Nations, thought by many to be untouchable during conflict, is ripped apart by a suicide truck bomber at the Baghdad compound. Trapped in the rubble dashing diplomat Sergio Viera de Mello, the U.N. leader there. His Australian military aide attempted a rescue.

COL. JEFF DAVIE, AUSTRALIA: He would sign repeatedly that he could not feel his legs and he couldn't describe exactly how his legs felt. He asked for water. We couldn't provide water. We just couldn't get water in there. It was so narrow.

ROTH: Colonel Jeff Davie received a medal for his efforts that day, but Vieira de Mello and 21 others lost their lives. 100 people were wounded including New York resident Marilyn Manuel, who at first was reported dead in the blast.

MARILYN MANUEL, U.N. BOMBING SURVIVOR: All I felt was my whole body being in horrible pain. It felt like thousands of volts of electricity were going through me. I managed to will my body to get up and get out. And in the darkened hallway I found that I was soaked in blood.

ROTH: At the time of the bombing, Salim Lone was Bealo de Mello's spokesman. He survived because Bealo de Mello instructed him to write a press release down the hall.

SALIM LONE, FMR. U.N. SPOKESMAN IN BAGHDAD: It was extremely difficult at first, a lot of anger against the United Nations, not only against the terrorists and against the U.S., but a lot of anger against the United Nations for having put us in a place from which there was going to be no easy escape.

ROTH: After the bombing, the investigations. One concluded security planning for the U.N. in Baghdad was dysfunctional and sloppy. Another accused senior management here in New York of putting the entire staff at risk from the minute the decision was made to return to Iraq. In New York, construction is under way for a stronger perimeter fence. In Baghdad, there were gaps the trucker, loaded with explosives, could penetrate.

CATHERINE BERTINI, U.N. UNDERSECRETARY GEN. FOR MGMT: We all are having to work through how security works in this world in which we now live and how the U.N. works in that world.

ROTH: Al Qaeda supporters have threatened the U.N. including Secretary-General Kofi Annan. Richard Roth, CNN, the United Nations.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: There's a new wrinkle tonight in the Abu Ghraib prison abuse scandal. The British medical journal "The Lancet" is alleging that doctors and other health workers were involved in abusing prisoners at Abu Ghraib and also at the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The article cites government documents and news reports that found medical personnel who were responsible for treating prisoners failed to protect detainees' human rights and sometimes collaborated with interrogators or with abusive guards. The journal also alleges they failed to properly report injuries or deaths caused by beatings. Today the Pentagon denied those allegations, saying the article was not based on first hand investigations or accounts.

Iran is also making news tonight. Speaking on Al Jazeera today, Iran's defense minister issued a stark warning. If his country detects an imminent threat from American forces in Iraq, it will strike first against Iraq and Israel.

And in Gaza tonight we're getting early reports that Israeli forces are back on the move. Palestinian officials tell us 25 tanks supported by Apache helicopters have entered a refugee camp in southern Gaza. No word yet on why.

Still to come on NEWSNIGHT, freedom of the press, the battle between journalists and the courts.

Also NEWSNIGHT goes back in time to demystify the mystery of the marathon.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: You can call it the summer of contempt, at least 10 reporters are facing jail time or substantial fines tonight for refusing to name anonymous sources in connection with three Federal court cases. They've all been held in contempt of court, including five reporters charged yesterday for refusing to reveal who gave them information about Wen Ho Lee. You might remember Mr. Lee is a scientist who was accused of spying but was later cleared of that charge.

We are joined now in Washington by Geneva Overholser. She teaches at the Missouri School of Journalism and she's a former ombudsman for the "Washington Post," also served as the editor of the "Des Moines Register." Good morning -- that's when I'm usually on. Good evening.

GENEVA OVERHOLSER, MISSOURI SCHOOL OF JOURNALISM: Good evening.

KAGAN: Let's start with getting the time of day right. That's a good way to start for a reporter. These journalists, if the case is over against Wen Ho Lee, how did they end up getting hauled before a judge?

Well, that is, of course, an important question. The original wrongdoing in all these cases you've mentioned, I would say, Daryn has to do with government officials who leaked information anonymously. And what's happening now is that others want to know who were those leakers? The problem for us journalists and I would say even for the public is that they're going to journalists to try to find out who the leakers were.

KAGAN: So what happened about one of the first things I learned about in journalism class and that was reporter's privilege. You're not supposed to have to tell who your sources are.

OVERHOLSER: And for a very good reason, as you no doubt learned in journalism class, because people, let's say, whistle blowers who might have important information that the public needs to know are going to be fearful about coming to you or to me in my old days as a journalist if I can't promise them that I will protect their identities. Their jobs may be at risk, their livelihoods, their lives could be at risk. And therefore, we are taught as journalists that we will go to jail before we will expose those identities.

KAGAN: I went to kind of a practical idea when I was reading about this story. Five journalists, five very different media organizations with this information. Five journalists saying that they won't give it up. But somebody has some very loose lips if they're talking to five different journalists. This isn't just one journalist on the hot seat, so it seemed that it wouldn't be too difficult to get the information that this individual is looking to get? OVERHOLSER: That is, of course, what I would wish would happen. If the courts had been able to get this information in all the various cases you're talking about from government officials who, after all, were the ones who committed the original wrongdoing. I must say I do have something of a problem with the journalistic ethics in some of these cases because we compound the wrongdoing by letting people attack others with impunity sometimes. But I don't think we can correct that problem by doing away with this very important ability for reporters to protect their sources, or they could just be turned into another information gathering arm of the government.

KAGAN: Well, and how serious are these charges? What could they potentially face?

OVERHOLSER: Oh, I think very serious in the case of Matthew Cooper of "Time" magazine and the Robert Novak, Valerie Plane (ph), Joe Wilson case, he may well go to jail. I wouldn't be at all surprised and in the case of these Wen Ho Lee reporters, certainly heavy fines. And I believe all these reporters will do whatever they have to do to protect their sources. And frankly, I think although we call it reporter's privilege, it is important that the public understand that this is a privilege that really serves their needs in terms of future whistle blowers who may come to journalists to tell the things that the public needs to know.

KAGAN: And what would Wen Ho Lee say however? He's the one trying to get the information from these five journalists. He had these charges. Somebody said something and ultimately he did didn't face any charges. He wants to know who's saying things about him. Does he not have that right to get that information?

OVERHOLSER: Yes, I don't really blame him. I mean certainly his privacy seems to me to have been violated. It appears that there were officials in several different departments of the government who violated it and it would be my hope that the courts could determine who those officials were without ever getting this reporter's privilege.

KAGAN: Geneva Overholser, thank you for your time.

OVERHOLSER: Thank you.

KAGAN: ... this evening. Before we go to break though, a few more items from around the country and the world starting with Iraq and a question of money, a lot of money. According to a draft audit by the coalition provisional authority, $8.8 billion given to Iraqi ministries cannot be fully accounted for. The money principally came from proceeds of Iraqi oil sales. The Pentagon underscoring the preliminary nature of the unreleased report called it premature to comment on specifics.

A scare today at a place with enough terrifying memories already, Columbine High School in Colorado. Students were evacuated today. A teacher and three students taken to the hospital after the teacher accidentally spilled a bit of nitric acid during a chemistry experiment. And on Wall Street today, the initial results of an economic experiment. In Google's first day of public trading, investors snapped it up, driving the price of a share up 18 percent to a cool $100.

Ahead on NEWSNIGHT, Paul Hamm thrilled us with his victory though he had to snatch it literally from the agony of defeat. Now his home town is raving over its local hero.

Also, it started with one truck, then another, and another until, well, we'll tell you how this one ended. That's coming up on NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: In Athens, the crowds may be smaller than at past Olympics, but the victories are no less sweet for the athletes. Among the high points today for the Americans, in the women's 200 meter breaststroke, the U.S. swimmer Amanda Beard won her first individual gold medal and set a record as well. In gymnastics, 16-year old Carly Patterson took the gold in the women's all around event, becoming the first American woman gymnast to win gold since Mary Lou Retton did it 20 years ago.

And swimmer Michael Phelps grabbed his fourth piece of gold, this time in the 200 meter individual medley. He's won two bronzes so far as well and has two events still to go for him.

Well, it was quite a day for all of them. The story though that still has everyone talking more than 24 hours later is the remarkable comeback of gymnast Paul Hamm. Here is CNN's Chris Lawrence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS LAWRENCE, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The story that eventually ends in Olympic gold begins here, with the Blackshirts of Waukesha South, a Wisconsin, high school. It is where Paul Hamm and his twin brother both got their start.

MARK HANSEN, WAUKESHA SOUTH PRINCIPAL: Very proud of them. They embody what it means to persevere.

LAWRENCE: That was evident Wednesday in Athens. After wringing up high scores in his first three events in the all-around final, Paul vaulted into first place. Just as quickly, his family watched as he tumbled (UNINTILLIGIBLE).

JEAN CARPENTER MOORING, HAMM'S GRANDMOTHER: Oh, that was devastating.

PAUL HAMM, HAMM'S UNCLE: My heart broke. I said, he's great. He did wonderful. The best he could, OK.

LAWRENCE: Even Hamm himself almost lost hope.

PAUL HAMM, GOLD MEDAL WINNER: After I had that mistake on vault, I thought for sure that I had cost myself any medal, really. LAWRENCE: But Hamm had been tested before, by years of hard work at home.

MORGAN BUTLER, FAMILY FRIEND: We've taken to calling it the Olympic barn now.

LAWRENCE: Family friend Morgan Butler watched the twins grow up on this farm training with whatever they could. Their dad turned a railing into parallel bars, set up a trampoline in the barn and built a pommel horse from an old maple tree.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Time wise and money wise and everything, it's a lot of investment for the parents. But it sure paid off.

LAWRENCE: In a way no one could have imagined, with the high bar his last hope, Hamm stuck the performance of his life, winning gold by 0.012 of a point.

HAMM: You probably daydream about winning the Olympics thousands of times and I did not ever picture myself having a mistake and then winning.

LAWRENCE: But there's no mistaking now. This town is home to a true Olympic champion. Chris Lawrence, CNN, Milwaukee, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: And congratulations to him.

A leg injury forced the second fastest marathon runner of all time - we're talking about Sammy Korir of Kenya. He had to pull out of the Olympics today. An administrative blunder is adding salt to that wound. Kenya apparently failed to name a backup for the event. When the race begins this week, actually a week from this Sunday, two other Kenyans will be at the starting line. For all the runners, there is something special about the marathon. It is a homecoming sort of. Here is CNN's Michael Holmes.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MICHAEL HOLMES, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): One of the delights of an Athens Olympics is the return of at least some sports to their ancient home. Welcome to Marathon, about 26 miles from Athens. No medals for guessing that's how a certain race ended up roughly the same distance with exactly the same name. But at the risk of starting a debate among amateur sports and history buffs, time now for a little mythology lesson.

Let's go back to 490 B.C. when outnumber Athenian and Pantheon soldiers defeated the Persian invaders right over there near the ocean. The Athenian side won that famous battle. Under this mound, the bodies of the soldiers who fought so well. Buried with them, though, the myth of who ran where to tell who what. Most widely believed, the outnumbered Athenians knew they needed help before the battle. ALEXANDER KITROEFF, HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR: Therefore, they sent this runner (UNINTELLIGIBLE) down south to Sparta to tell the Spartans that the Athenians were facing this threat and enlist their support.

HOLMES: But another popular legend says Pheidippides was sent to Athens after the battle where he famously uttered the words, rejoice, we conquer and promptly died of exhaustion. The problem is, most historians now believe that probably didn't happen.

KITROEFF: We know the city was alerted somehow, but we don't have any actual evidence about someone running from Marathon to the city.

HOLMES: But as Socrates once may have said, whatever. The Marathon is named after this place and it is about the same distance as that of marathon to Athens. And it will end in the same stadium where the marathon ended back in 1896, the last time the Olympics were here.

(on-camera): Of course, today's athletes should feel fortunate that they are not Pheidippides. If it were the Spartathon instead of the marathon, instead of running 26 miles that way to Athens, they'd have to keep right on going another 124 miles to Sparta in order to win the gold. Michael Holmes, CNN, Marathon, Greece.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: All right. This is the time of the program where you need to picture yourself driving down a country road in New England where you happen upon acres and acres of antique trucks. Would you slow down? Would you stop? Our Boston cameraman Bob Crowley did. Here's what he saw.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE #1: It's always been here, probably always will be.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It does draw some people into the area.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Something you don't see every day.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE #2: It's a part of the town of Hillsboro.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every now and then somebody pops up and asks where the truck museum is.

UNIDENTIFIED TRUCK OWNER: There's way over 100 the last time I counted. There's nothing I ever wanted. I never wanted a collection. It just ended up that way. I just wanted one truck to start with, about '54 that I bought the first one, this collection. I swore I wasn't going to buy any more back in 1960, but I've been buying them ever since. Today they're pleasure cars with truck tires. These things you had to work to run them.

This was the one that actually started the collection. That's a bulldog which is a rare one, an old tank truck come out of Massachusetts. This one I got for $50 but you can't find one for $50 today. Most of them here I've had some kind of a memory of. Most of them I worked around, worked with, some of them I drove over the years. I don't mind seeing a dent in them because most of the trucks I drove had dents in them somewhere. There's everything in here. Most of them would run after a little tinkering and a little work on them.

It's for a love of old trucks. I was born around trucks, was near them all my life. That worked. I'm not for show. I don't take them anywhere. I just fix them up because I like to see them. It just runs good, a good old engine. They say, why don't you go to truck shows? I says, I don't. If I want to see a truck, I can come out here. Everybody asks me, what's going to happen to this collection when you go? I don't know. That's somebody else's problem.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KAGAN: I'm glad we got a look tonight. We're back after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KAGAN: And now let's check in with Bill Hemmer for a look at what's coming up tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING."

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