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CNN Newsnight Aaron Brown

New Reports Show High Ranking Officers Also At Fault At Abu Ghraib; Top Bush Campaign Aid Resigns; Grand Ayatolla Sistani Orders Siites To March On Najaf, End Fighting

Aired August 25, 2004 - 22:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
Lost some in the tussle that is the swift boat fuss is the very serious and very damning reports issued the last two days over the scandal at Abu Ghraib. No one can any longer argue that this was the fault simply of a handful of low-ranking enlisted men and women.

The two reports make it clear that while those who did sadistic things must be held accountable, the reports also make clear that the conditions that allowed what was at times outright torture to go on reached far higher.

The question then is now what? To what degree do we hold accountable the people who undermanned the operation, the people who allowed one ill-trained reservist to guard 75 prisoners? Who is accountable for the lack of translators which left Army units to simply arrest whoever looked suspicious and allow interrogators to sort it all out?

Everyone in the chain of command from the secretary of defense on down says they accept responsibility but what, if anything, does that mean if there are no consequences? We'll look at that tonight and the political stuff as well.

And the political stuff kicks off the whip, CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, so Suzanne a headline from you.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, sometimes it's all about politics, sometimes the law, but Republican observers say that today it was all about image. It was a tough day for the Bush campaign. They saw a top campaign adviser resign and also a protest outside of President Bush's Crawford ranch that picked up some heat.

BROWN: Suzanne, thank you. We'll get to you quickly tonight.

On to the Pentagon and the prison abuse report, the second in two days, as we said, CNN's Barbara Starr with the headline tonight.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, another Army report today of torture, abuse, commanders not paying attention and not enough troops at Abu Ghraib Prison.

BROWN: Barbara, thank you. Finally to the fighting in Iraq and the figure who is stepping into the breach what appears to be a major moment, CNN's John Vause in Baghdad tonight, John the headline.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Muqtada al-Sadr has repeatedly defied the U.S., repeatedly defied the Iraqi interim government but the grand ayatollah is back after three weeks in London and he's had enough of the fighting in Najaf -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, the hunt for al Qaeda inside the United States, is an attack imminent? Are officials convinced even that there is a plot?

Sixty years after the allied liberation of Paris, we look at what the French really think about the United States today.

And the fine print tonight in black and white and more and more in color, morning papers at the end of the hour, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with a campaign and what appears to be a shift in tactics on the Kerry side. Instead of downplaying the swift boat story, the Senator's people today practically embraced it, turning it where they believe they could to the candidate's advantage, even as they extended its life.

On a certain level this is pretty standard fare straight from the campaign playbook of either party but it also represents a calculated risk and the calculation may, may tell us something.

We have two reports tonight beginning first with CNN's Joe Johns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The gloves are coming off the for the Kerry campaign over the swift boat controversy. They just put a new ad on television. In Ohio, Kerry's running mate, John Edwards, was lashing out at the original attack ad that started the controversy.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're lies financed by friends of the president and I just want to say I think they were intended to say something about the character of John Kerry. Every day it goes on, it says something about the character of George W. Bush.

JOHNS: The Kerry campaign is betting that the tide has turned against the swift boat vets and that the ads may be backfiring on the president. It argues that debating Kerry's record in Vietnam will only help its cause. The only evidence it's offering so far is anecdotal. The campaign says it's being swamped by calls from angry veterans, like this man in Green Bay. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's a damn shame with Bush and his other two draft dodging buddies cutting the feet out from under this wonderful man.

JOHNS: And Vietnam vet Dennis Markovsky who says he was contacted by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth but refused to join their cause.

DENNIS MARKOVSKY, VIETNAM VETERAN: I think any veteran that criticizes another veteran what happened 35 years ago and wasn't even in that area is very shameful.

JOHNS: With surrogates and TV ads now making the case on Vietnam, Kerry turned his attention to other things on Wednesday coming out swinging on the Iraq prisoner abuse scandal, trying to pin the blame on civilian leadership and the Bush administration.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And it's not just the little person at the bottom who ought to pay the price of responsibility. Harry Truman had that sign on the desk and it said, "The buck stops here." The buck doesn't stop at the Pentagon.

JOHNS: The Bush campaign accuses Kerry of exploiting the Iraq war for political purposes.

(on camera): A Republican strategist scoffed at the campaign's claims that the swift boat controversy could have somehow turned to Kerry's advantage. They point out that the swift boat veterans' book is now selling off the shelves and that the campaign had to spend a lot of time and money defending Kerry's resume.

Joe Johns CNN, Green Bay, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Set that now against two other headlines today, one arguably nothing more than a moment of high political theater, the other more serious at least for today.

It involves the Bush campaign's top lawyer, now the Bush campaign's former top lawyer, a man on record as opposing independent political groups on either side but a man who also did work for one of them, the swift boat vets.

He did nothing illegal and in the world of today's politics nothing even unusual. There are Democrats doing much the same thing.

Ben Ginsberg is not just any Republican lawyer and his job with the campaign was not just any old job, so again from Crawford, Texas tonight CNN's Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): The Bush campaign's top lawyer, Ben Ginsberg, took center stage when he resigned after admitting he was working as an adviser to both the Bush campaign and a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth but Ginsberg insists his work was kept separate.

BENJAMIN GINSBERG, FMR. BUSH CAMPAIGN LAWYER: The way the laws of coordination are written that is perfectly appropriate. It is as appropriate as my Democratic colleagues on the other side doing precisely the same thing.

MALVEAUX: Ginsberg says in his letter of resignation to President Bush he is stepping down "to ensure that the giving of legal advice to decorated military veterans, which was entirely within the boundaries of the law, doesn't distract from the real issues upon which you and the country should be focusing."

A Kerry campaign aide said the Ginsberg flap was just another part of "the extensive web of connections between George Bush and the group trying to smear John Kerry's military record."

Max Cleland, Vietnam veteran, Kerry supporter and triple amputee went to President Bush's Texas ranch to deliver a similar message suggesting the president could stop the attack ads that have been at the center of the controversy, which have criticized Kerry's service.

President Bush sent out Vietnam veteran and local Bush supporter Jerry Patterson to receive Cleland's letter and to give him a note in return, written by the Bush campaign with a message to Kerry condemning him for not supporting the troops. Cleland refused to exchange letters with the Bush surrogate. Instead, he turned to the cameras.

MAX CLELAND (D), FORMER SENATOR: The question is where is George Bush's honor? The question is where is his shame to attack a fellow veteran who has distinguished himself in combat regardless of the political combat involved is disgraceful.

MALVEAUX: Bush aides dismiss Cleland's visit as political theater.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Senator Kerry says that he wants to talk about the issues. Today's political stunt is an interesting way of showing it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Now, while both sides say they want the swift boat controversy to go away that is far from certain. At least one Democratic Congressman John Dingle is calling Attorney General John Ashcroft to lead an investigation into possible links between the group and the Bush campaign -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. From the White House, which is in Washington the last time I checked do they want this story to go away or are they comfortable with how it's playing out?

MALVEAUX: Well there are pros and cons to this because Bush aides will say on the plus side they can make their case that there's been $60 million worth of these anti-Bush ads that have been linked to the Kerry campaign and they say that it prevents Kerry from talking about the issues that voters really care about.

On the downside, of course, that this was not a good day for the Bush campaign. This was a day when, of course, one of their advisers resigned and they had a lot of explaining to do when it came to those ads but they say that as long as this continues they will continue to make their case, their argument that the Democrats are doing very much the same.

BROWN: Suzanne, thank you, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House tonight. We have more on the politics of all this coming up a little bit later in the program.

On to other matters first, one after another reports on Abu Ghraib confirm what the unforgettable pictures show, horrific images of American soldiers humiliating, tormenting, in some cases torturing Iraqi prisoners.

The question in all these reports remains the same, not just who should be charged but how high those charges should go, from the Pentagon tonight, CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice-over): Fifty-three people who worked at Abu Ghraib either participated in the violent sexual abuse that took place, knew about and didn't report it or failed to command their troops.

The Fay/Jones investigation of the intelligence operations at the prison emphasized that Abu Ghraib was understaffed, interrogation policies were confused and it wasn't clear who was in charge. In some cases there was torture but investigators stopped short of holding the top commander in Iraq, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, directly accountable for the prison scandal.

GEN. PAUL KERN, U.S. ARMY: We did not find General Sanchez culpable but we found him responsible for the things that did or did not happen.

STARR: There was limited cooperation from the CIA on eight ghost detainees, Iraqis secretly held at the U.S. military prison by the agency.

MAJ. GEN. GEORGE FAY, U.S. ARMY: They made it very clear to me that they're going to conduct their own thorough, detailed investigation.

STARR: The report found the commander of the intelligence brigade at Abu Ghraib, Colonel Thomas Pappas, failed to make sure his troops were fully trained, improperly authorized the use of dogs during interrogations and failed to make sure dogs were muzzled, the use of military dogs at the prison horrific in the words of General Kern.

KERN: MP dog handlers were subjecting two adolescents to terror from the dogs for the purposes of playing a game between the two dog teams to see how poorly they could get these kids to behave and that specifically to see if they could get their bowel movements and their urination to work.

STARR: So, what now? Army officials say the military cases will be referred to commanders for action, reprimand or criminal investigations that could lead to charges. Contractor cases will be referred to the Justice Department but the Army is also revising how it will handle detainees in future wars.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Where this all leads ought to be simple enough, though in practice it rarely is. We raised a few of the many questions the story presents with retired General Don Shepperd. We spoke with the general late this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: General in the last two days we've had two very significant reports on Abu Ghraib come out. As we sit here tonight can you tell me in your mind how high in the chain of command charges will fall?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Aaron, I think charges themselves, and when you say charges you're talking about disciplinary action as opposed to letters of reprimand. I think they probably will stop at the military intelligence brigade level and the military police brigade level. That's probably where the charges themselves will stop. That isn't where damage will stop. A lot of people's reputation and careers will be damaged as a result of this.

BROWN: Well, let's talk about that. So, are we talking about Colonel Pappas here?

SHEPPERD: I think clearly Colonel Pappas and Brigadier General Karpinski, both from the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, will very likely face further action perhaps under the UCMJ. That's still to be investigated and I don't mean to prejudge them but from everything we've heard it looks like it's headed in that direction.

BROWN: Let me ask you about this then. There was a story today that there is talk that Colonel Pappas, who was the intelligence guy at the prison, may be granted immunity for his testimony against the lower ranking people who have been charged which, and this is editorial, may be the first time the big fish has been immunized to get the small fish.

SHEPPERD: Yes. I'd be very careful. I'd be careful about believing that. I would find that difficult to -- it doesn't normally happen in legal proceedings and also from the political standpoint and this is clearly political as well as legal that would be very difficult for the public to stomach.

BROWN: When you talk about political tell me what you mean.

SHEPPERD: Well, I mean everything that happens over there now in this highly-charged political atmosphere of a presidential campaign is going to be viewed through those lenses.

There are going to be people that say, hey, the president's responsible. The secretary of defense is responsible. General Abizaid is responsible. Everybody up and the down needs to be fired. The buck stops here. That's the harsh reality of a presidential campaign.

BROWN: Let's set aside in fact what should happen up the chain of command and not. The report out yesterday, the Schlessinger report was pretty clear that the chain of command, very high up in the chain of command, made critical mistakes which allowed this stuff to happen. There weren't enough people there. The training was inadequate.

There's a basic rule, it seems to me that I remember from boot camp, which is that rank has its privileges and rank has its responsibilities and I guess I want to know to what extent people who are responsible for setting troop levels, responsible for training are held accountable here.

SHEPPERD: Yes. That's a really difficult question to answer but you've got your finger on the right issue. You as a parent, even though you didn't do it, you're held responsible for what your kids do. And, in the military, with command goes the responsibility. Whatever happens on your watch you're responsible for.

For instance, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, commander of the Joint Task Force in Iraq. He is probably one of the finest officers you would ever meet in uniform. He is clearly going to be very damaged by this. He was nominated to the Senate for promotion to four stars and that has been put on hold as a result of this. He's responsible for what happened to him in Iraq.

The judgment question is well how high above him do you go? But clearly, clearly people in the chain of command issued directives that were confusing. They also did not provide the resources, the manning and the training. That's what all these reports have in common. That's what they all say.

BROWN: General, it's been a while since we talked. It's good to see you.

SHEPPERD: My pleasure.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Don Shepperd, we talked with him late this afternoon.

Ahead on the program tonight, Iraq's most influential Shia cleric calls out the faithful to help rescue the city as the battle for Najaf rages on.

And later, has George W. Bush convinced you he is the man for the future? Senior Analyst Jeff Greenfield looks to the past for some answers. From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Every death in Iraq triggers a dreaded knock on the door back home. In Florida today, a distraught father climbed into a military van and set it on fire after learning that his son was killed in Najaf.

He suffered serious burns over much of his body before being pulled from the flames by the Marines who delivered the news. It's not clear if he was trying to commit suicide or if any charges will be filed. I can't imagine.

In Najaf in the meantime, forces loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr took another heavy pounding from American jets and helicopters, ordinance landing within 30 yards of the shrine and the Marines occupying one of the outbuildings nearby and there continue to be reports that the Mehdi Army has reached a breaking point.

But regardless, in just a few hours, the scene in Najaf is expected to change entirely with the return of perhaps the single most important man in Iraq at this moment, reporting for us tonight from Baghdad, CNN's John Vause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE (voice-over): Destination Najaf, a convoy of SUVs and pickup trucks, surrounded by Iraqi National Guardsmen and police protecting the one man who perhaps has the respect and the following to bring the standoff at the Imam Ali Mosque to a peaceful end.

For three weeks, the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani watched from his hospital bed in London where he underwent heart surgery but now he's back in Iraq and Thursday plans to return to his home in Najaf, calling on all Iraqis to join him, a call supported by other senior Shiite leaders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The crisis has to be solved through reason and logic and peaceful means and through the departure of the armed elements from the city and the holy shrine and then restoring law and order.

VAUSE: A sign of al-Sistani's influence, within hours the faithful were leaving Baghdad for Najaf.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We obey Sayyid al- Sistani and we are going on foot to the Imam Ali Mosque to protect him with our souls.

VAUSE: At least two of his followers may have already paid with their lives. About 1,000 were marching from the city of Kufa to neighboring Najaf when gunfire erupted. It's not known who was shooting.

It's widely believed that al-Sistani brokered a short-lived ceasefire back in June. And earlier this year when he called for demonstrations demanding national elections be held sooner, hundreds of thousands took to the streets in Baghdad alone.

The Mehdi militia remains inside the Imam Ali Mosque, their numbers dwindling. Outside they are completely surrounded by U.S. and Iraqi forces. The police chief there is warning the grand ayatollah it's too dangerous right now but for the people of Najaf, who've endured three weeks of heavy fighting, news al-Sistani is coming home is reason to hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We hope that Sayyid al- Sistani will come to Najaf and get rid of this crisis for us. We are getting tired.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Now the grand ayatollah's focus is getting the Mehdi militia out of the Imam Ali Mosque and all foreign forces, including American to leave the city. Security would then be handed back to the Iraqi police.

But that, it seems, is as far as al-Sistani is willing to go leaving one question, at least one question unanswered and that's what to do with the junior cleric and his Mehdi militia once they leave the shrine -- Aaron.

BROWN: This is -- this is as unpredictable a moment that's about to unfold as you can imagine, in part I think because most of our viewers are American viewers. It's hard for us to imagine the sheer charisma and power of the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani.

VAUSE: This is the senior Shiite leader in all of Iraq. He's a grand ayatollah. There's only seven grand ayatollahs in all of Islam. He's 73 years old. He has lived through Saddam Hussein. He has survived tyranny. He has survived oppression. He commands incredible respect and he is by some reports very annoyed at the upstart junior cleric and now he has decided that it is time to act.

BROWN: He's also been relatively moderate and somewhat unpredictable. He hasn't necessarily been a great supporter of the Americans either, so how this all plays out is, I think it's fair to say, impossible to predict.

VAUSE: Well, the thing about al-Sistani is that while he has not been a great supporter of the United States or the Iraqi interim government he has been one of the few voices who has been urging dialog, urging negotiations between all parties and urging and end to the violence saying that the situation in Iraq can only be resolved through negotiations.

An armed uprising is not the answer and that Iraqis should negotiate and bring about a speedy end to what he calls the American occupation here. So, while he's not a supporter, he is a very moderate voice especially from all the voices that we're hearing in Iraq right now and, yes, he is the one man who maybe can bring this all to an end. BROWN: John, I think you've got a full day ahead of you.

VAUSE: Yes.

BROWN: Thank you very much, John Vause in Baghdad.

We're joined now by retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters, columnist, author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace," a fair bit for us to talk about. It's always good to see you, Ralph. Thank you for joining us.

LT. COL. RALPH PETERS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Hey.

BROWN: Let's start, we'll work our way back to Abu Ghraib, if you don't mind. You've been pretty tough, I think, on how the administration, the Pentagon has handled some of these standoffs. You were very tough on how they handled or mishandled, in your view, Fallujah. How have they handled Najaf?

PETERS: Well, Najaf is tougher than Fallujah. Fallujah was amenable to a direct military solution. We were just too slow. In Najaf, the Shrine of the Imam Ali definitely complicates it. It's, you know, the closest comparison I can come is that it's a Shia Vatican. That's not a perfect comparison but that will give you some idea. And the Mehdi Army and Muqtada al-Sadr would be easy to destroy militarily had they not used the shrine as a fortress.

And, by the way, Aaron, the Muslims certainly aren't stupid. They know that what Muqtada al-Sadr is doing is wrong. It's against their religion and the overwhelming majority of Muslims, Shia or Sunni, but especially the Shia it's their shrine, want him gone.

And, if I may, what's curious today with the Abu Ghraib report released today and one yesterday, of problems in Najaf, in Fallujah and elsewhere are directly related. I mean they have the same roots as the Abu Ghraib problem, woefully inadequate planning for the occupation of Iraq, insufficient troops and a dreadful leadership climate at the highest levels.

BROWN: All right. We've kind of dovetailed over to Abu Ghraib and raise the issues that the report raises, so I'll ask you the same question as I asked -- or at least one of the questions I asked General Shepperd and that is, look, there are people who made these decisions and defended the personnel levels, the training levels, all of that and they all say they accept responsibility and none of them are really being held accountable.

PETERS: Yes. That's the big weakness with the reports. Certainly the thugs in uniform who perpetrated those acts at Abu Ghraib are guilty and they need to go to prison but really some of the officers in the chain of command do as well, if they are proved culpable.

But more importantly, I listened to you earlier, you were right. There's a military rule that a commander is responsible for everything his or her soldiers do or fail to do and that would apply at least up to the level of the secretary of defense.

And this notion that the little guys are guilty, and they are guilty, but that the people who made the colossal mistakes that jeopardized a worthy war of liberation and the chances of the Iraqi people and mistakes that are still killing American soldiers every day they walk away.

I mean I'm not a John Kerry fan but in this instance he's right. Secretary Rumsfeld and his civilian paladins need to go and President Bush should have cleaned house a year ago.

BROWN: Ralph, I want to get one more question and I don't have a whole lot of time. Back to Abu Ghraib, is there any evidence that you know of that the scandal there has damaged the American ability to gain information?

PETERS: Yes, on multiple levels. The most immediate level is, you know, we've taken the American response to a scandal or a problem and we've over reacted and my friends in the military are a bit disheartened because now they are under so many strictures about how they can interrogate that it really has hampered our ability to collect information that keeps Americans alive.

BROWN: Good to see you, sir. Thank you for joining us tonight.

PETERS: Great to talk to you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT still, searching for terrorists inside the U.S. Is an attack certain and is there a target time and place?

And, remembering the liberation of Paris 60 years ago today.

Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In some respects, the war on terror is like a standard police investigation, arrest a suspect and try and turn him, or look through his notes, his diaries, his computer discs. That leads to others who perhaps will lead to others still. That, in essence, is what this story is about, an investigation that started in Pakistan, that landed in London and may well end up in the United States.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Demonstrators proclaim the innocence of one of the men being held in British custody, but counterterrorism sources tell CNN evidence strongly suggests the eight suspects were actively planning to attack targets in Britain.

Sources say the evidence is less convincing when it comes to an imminent plot to strike the United States.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: First of all, there is no information today about the time and place and manner.

ARENA: When the men were arrested, officials found surveillance of U.S. financial institutions similar to evidence found in Pakistan. Officials have told CNN that one of the men, Dhiren Barot, also known as Eisa al-Hindi, personally conducted some of that surveillance in 2000 and 2001.

Government sources now say two of the other men in custody were with him in New York at the time. Officials have said that surveillance was updated as recently as this spring.

RICHARD FALKENRATH, FORMER WHITE HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL: We know for sure that they're targeting the U.S. homeland and they would like to strike here. But we have not yet uncovered an operation. Now, it may mean that they don't have an operation here yet. That would be the best case. But it may also mean that they have one here and we just haven't found it yet.

ARENA: CNN has learned, as a direct result of the British arrests and earlier operations in Pakistan, the FBI is conducting at least half a dozen surveillance operations in the United States, including in New York and the Washington area. It's all being hailed as a major success, but is it?

BRUCE HOFFMAN, RAND CORPORATION: This is a movement that is able to replenish its ranks with a greater facility than we imagine.

ARENA: There are aggressive manhunts under way for at least two alleged al Qaeda operatives thought to be involved in current planning, Adnan El Shukrijumah, who investigators believe may try to illegally enter the United States through Mexico, and Abu Faraj al- Libbi. Investigators describe him as a senior operational planner thought to be hiding along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

(on camera): But no one is discounting the old guard. Officials say evidence shows that Osama bin Laden was in communication with one of the men recently arrested in Pakistan, alleged computer expert Mohammad Naeem Noor Khan.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In Russia, investigators are working to solve the mystery of what caused two passenger planes to crash at nearly the same time yesterday. The planes went down within minutes of each other after taking off from Moscow, the crash sites about 450 miles apart. Coincidence or not remains the question; 89 people died. There were no survivors in either crash. Russian officials said today they have uncovered no solid evidence of terrorism yet. Both planes' flight data recorders have been recovered and will obviously be searched for clues. Still to come on the program tonight, is the country in the mood for four more years of George W. Bush? Jeff Greenfield joins us with a history lesson and some answers to the question.

And the crossword puzzle is one. My horoscope is the other -- all that in your morning papers still to come.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Oscar Wilde once said, I can resist everything except temptation. Ed Koch often said, how am I doing? Ed meet Oscar. Oscar, Ed.

Tonight, with his convention about to begin, the temptation is to ask how the president is doing, the temptation pretty darn resistible.

So Ed and Oscar, meet Jeff, as in Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): If you want to know where President Bush stands as his renomination nears, you might be tempted to look at history. The only problem is, history isn't much of a help this year. It offers news both good and bad for this sitting president.

The good news, the president has a united Republican Party behind him. In fact, Bush is doing even better among Republicans than Ronald Reagan did in 1984. When a sitting president has problems within his own party, he either doesn't run at all, Truman in 1952, LBJ in '68, or he loses, Ford in '76, Carter in '80, Bush I in '92. A united base usually means the president wins again.

The bad news, Democrats are united, too. When an incumbent's challenger can't unite his own party, a second term is a lock, LBJ in '64, Nixon in '72. But Kerry's doing just about as well with Democrats as Bush is with Republicans. The good news? The economy is growing. Economists expect it to grow by close to 4 percent in this quarter. And inflation is under 3 percent. Generally speaking, presidents who run with those kinds of economic numbers win reelection.

The bad news? Unlike past recoveries, this one is producing a very weak jobs growth picture. Indeed, as Democrats never tire of saying, the president's first term will almost surely see a net loss of jobs. And the wage growth that accompanied the boom of the late '90s is nowhere to be seen. Moreover, if gasoline prices spike upward, that will be felt right in the consumers' pocketbook.

Now, what about the president's job approval rating? This is historically a reliable guide to reelection. If you're under 50 percent, Ford, Carter, Bush I, you lose. Over 50 percent, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, you win. So where is President Bush? Smack in the middle. Depending on what poll you read, he's either just under 50 percent or barely above it.

(on camera): All of which tells us what? Well, the country is not in a four-more-years mood, as it was with Reagan and Clinton. It is not heavily disposed toward showing President Bush the door, but it is leaning more toward change than continuity, which means President Bush has to do at least one of two things, either convince the voters that his second term will be better than the first or convince the voters that the alternative of John Kerry is simply unacceptable.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A little more political talk about the president, the senator, about swift boats and old wars and other things, too, CNN's Bill Schneider with us tonight.

The convention starts in a few days. What do the Republicans need to accomplish?

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: I think what they want to do is recreate the Bush after 9/11, the Bush that created broad unity in the country and in the world.

You know, for one year after September 11, 2001, he was on top of the world. The whole world...

BROWN: How do you do that?

SCHNEIDER: Because the whole world supported the United States in Afghanistan.

BROWN: No, but how do you do that?

SCHNEIDER: How do you do that?

By recalling those images, the images of Bush at ground zero, when he said, you can't hear me, but I can hear you, the image of Bush leading the world in Afghanistan. That was a year when most Democrats supported President Bush. It is almost forgotten now.

BROWN: But a lot of water has gone over the dam since then. And most of it is named Iraq.

SCHNEIDER: Right. Right.

And they're also going to try to recall the compassionate conservative, which Democrats find outrageous, because they say this guy got elected on false pretenses, Democrats say. He claimed to be a compassionate conservative and in their view and I think by most objective evidence, he's been the most conservative president in modern history.

BROWN: The Republicans during the Democratic Convention talked about the extreme makeover. If you look at the list of prime-time speakers the Republicans are going to trot out, you could make the same argument. They're not necessarily the heart and soul of a conservative party.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. This is a show.

The Democrats put on a show. The Democrats are an anti-war party. They came out of the anti-Vietnam War movement, and yet they hailed their candidate as a war hero from Vietnam. They opposed Iraq, overwhelmingly, but it didn't seem to come up very much. They put on a military show at their convention.

Well, the Republicans are putting on a show. They're a conservative party and they have a lot of moderate speakers, John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, George Pataki and the star-quality speaker, Arnold Schwarzenegger, who is very much a moderate, not a conservative among them.

BROWN: Let me turn you, with some apology, to swift boats. Tell me the -- if you think there is wisdom -- the wisdom or the calculation at least that the Kerry people are making to keep this -- I mean, they clearly today decided to keep the story running.

SCHNEIDER: Right.

BROWN: They wanted another day out of it or another couple days out of it. If ultimately this is a referendum, as you've told me countless times on a sitting president, what sense does that make?

SCHNEIDER: They think that Bush's credibility as a leader has been challenged because they believe he is now associated with the smear campaign. The line the Democrats are pressing -- this is what Max Cleland said.

This is what Kerry and Edwards are saying is this, three Vietnam veterans in four years, first, John McCain in 2000, second, Max Cleland in 2002, third, John Kerry this year. They're accusing him of smearing the reputation of Vietnam veterans. And there's one central fact in all this, they say. Bush didn't go to Vietnam. Kerry did. How dare he? They think that they've impugned his credibility and therefore, they have him at least on the run in the sense that some serious questions are being raised now that there's conflicting evidence, testimony from other veterans and also ties between the swift boat veterans group and the Bush/Cheney campaign.

BROWN: And, in five seconds, do you think they're making the right calculation?

SCHNEIDER: Don't know. I don't know. It's a risky one.

BROWN: You weaseled out of that one.

SCHNEIDER: I certainly did.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: We'll see how you do next week. You'll be with us much of the week. Thank you.

SCHNEIDER: OK.

BROWN: Thank you, Bill. Good to see you.

Ahead on the program tonight, remembering the liberation of Paris; 60 years ago today, American forces helped bring freedom back to the French.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Lessons of war can be timeless. And this, we suspect, is just one of them. Being under the control of an occupying power ensures at least this. You do not forget, at least not easily, the day of your liberation. And so it was in Paris today, reliving the glory of August the 25th, six decades ago.

Here's CNN's Jim Bittermann.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For much of the summer now, 1,000 French volunteers have been learning the dance steps and the emotions of 60 years ago. It was a glorious moment the day Paris was liberated. And those in charge of the commemorations wanted to reflect not just the joy, but the real tension of the day in which people were still getting killed even as they celebrated.

JEROME SAVARY, DIRECTOR: And you were dancing and suddenly your partner was falling down killed by a sniper from the roof, you know? And this atmosphere never happened again anywhere in the world. It's a unique, unique day of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) drama and emotion.

BITTERMANN (on camera): As important and emotional as it may have been for Parisians, the liberation of the French capital had tremendous symbolic value for everyone else. If the allies had gotten here, after all, the end of the world war could not be long off.

(voice-over): Just like 60 years ago, there was enthusiastic applause as the American flag once again came waving down the Paris boulevards. These are the Americans, even if they're only actors playing the part, the French love to remember. Serge Olye (ph) was a 15-year-old Paris chimney sweep at the time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For us, America means freedom, you know?

BITTERMANN: The Americans are remembered as liberators here, if not everywhere else, in part because after six days of pitched street battles between members of the French resistance and their Nazi occupiers, American General Dwight Eisenhower decided to let French General Charles de Gaulle and his right-hand man, General Leclerc, lead the first tank column into Paris.

GUILLAUME PARMENTIER, FRENCH FOREIGN RELATIONS INSTITUTION: Eisenhower was very enlightened from that point of view. And I think the French are well aware of the fact that obviously Leclerc could not have done it by himself or with his own forces, and therefore that the liberation essentially was due to the Americans. BITTERMANN: That decision permitted Parisians pride, as spelled out even the headlines 60 years on: "Paris Liberates Itself."

The legends were acted out again for the anniversary, the firemen who climbed to the top of the Eiffel Tower to install a French flag and the gathering on the spot where the city was proclaimed free. The liberation of Paris, French President Jacques Chirac said, was finally a victory for the French army, permitting France to restore its honor and regain its place in the world.

They are dancing and singing here to mark the day their capital was freed, a moment so powerful that, even 60 years on, some who lived it cannot help but break into tears.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: There is a sad irony in an obituary we report tonight, the passing of Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. She's a psychiatrist whose book on death and dying put forth the theory that the terminally ill go through five stages of grief: denial and anger, then bargaining, then depression, and finally acceptance.

She pioneered the concept of hospice care, after deciding the medical world wasn't addressing the terminally ill patient's need to die with dignity. Ms. Kubler-Ross was 78 when she died today after a long illness. Her son said, she wasn't afraid of death. She saw it as a kind of graduation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers. We'll do this really fast tonight, so you might want to TiVo it and go back and look at it later to figure out what the heck I was talking about.

"International Herald Tribune." "Shiite Cleric Looks to Broker a Deal. Sistani Returns to Iraq Hoping to End Najaf Rebellion, as U.S. Forces Close in." Down at the bottom, "Thatcher's" -- well, why don't I do it that way? Why not show you a big headline? "The Times" in London. "Thatcher." This is the son of Margaret Thatcher, Mark, "Held Over Coup Plot. Former Premier's Son Protests Innocence, Faces 15 Years in Prison in South Africa." He's accused of financing a coup attempt in Equatorial Guinea. Yikes.

"The Cincinnati Enquirer" leads local. "Allen Admits to Affair With Employee. 'Worst Mistake of My Life,' Prosecutor Says." Goodness.

"The Philadelphia Inquirer." "More Accused at Abu Ghraib." That's their big front-page story, but I think the story we would all read first in Philadelphia is in the middle there. "A Final Salute to a Firefighter. 'He Died Doing What Most Guys Say They Do,' Says One Union Leader," and getting the full salute in Philadelphia. That's a sad tale, that.

The other Philadelphia paper, "The Daily News." For some reason, I think they're owned by the same company, but I'm probably wrong on that. "City Worker Stole $32,000 and Wants Her Job Back." Is that a great tabloid headline or what?

"The Washington Times." I just think this is amusing. "A Drop in Oil Costs Buoys Investors' Hopes." Yes, great deal. Oil dropped to about $43 a barrel today.

Go to "The Chicago Tribune" -- no, "The Chicago Sun-Times." "Chicago Tribune" doesn't send us a paper. We'll have to talk to them about that.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago...

(CHIMES)

BROWN: Thank you -- is "surly."

Mike Ditka, by the way, is backing Alan Keyes. So, if you were wondering what Coach Ditka was doing, now you know.

We'll wrap it up in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: So, you're probably thinking, what's on "AMERICAN MORNING" tomorrow at 7:00 Eastern?

Here is Heidi Collins.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," with dealers getting ready for next year's new model cars, now is one of the big times of the year to get a great deal on a new car, or is it? Our personal financial coach David Bach with us tomorrow showing us how to get the best deal possible and showing us what to watch out for, what you want to make sure doesn't happen to you when you go car shopping.

That's CNN tomorrow, 7:00 a.m. -- Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Heidi, thank you.

Good to have you all with us tonight. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" next for most of you.

We'll all back tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

TO ORDER A VIDEO OF THIS TRANSCRIPT, PLEASE CALL 800-CNN-NEWS OR USE OUR SECURE ONLINE ORDER FORM LOCATED AT www.fdch.com


Aired August 25, 2004 - 22:00   ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
AARON BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Good evening again everyone.
Lost some in the tussle that is the swift boat fuss is the very serious and very damning reports issued the last two days over the scandal at Abu Ghraib. No one can any longer argue that this was the fault simply of a handful of low-ranking enlisted men and women.

The two reports make it clear that while those who did sadistic things must be held accountable, the reports also make clear that the conditions that allowed what was at times outright torture to go on reached far higher.

The question then is now what? To what degree do we hold accountable the people who undermanned the operation, the people who allowed one ill-trained reservist to guard 75 prisoners? Who is accountable for the lack of translators which left Army units to simply arrest whoever looked suspicious and allow interrogators to sort it all out?

Everyone in the chain of command from the secretary of defense on down says they accept responsibility but what, if anything, does that mean if there are no consequences? We'll look at that tonight and the political stuff as well.

And the political stuff kicks off the whip, CNN's Suzanne Malveaux at the White House, so Suzanne a headline from you.

SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Aaron, sometimes it's all about politics, sometimes the law, but Republican observers say that today it was all about image. It was a tough day for the Bush campaign. They saw a top campaign adviser resign and also a protest outside of President Bush's Crawford ranch that picked up some heat.

BROWN: Suzanne, thank you. We'll get to you quickly tonight.

On to the Pentagon and the prison abuse report, the second in two days, as we said, CNN's Barbara Starr with the headline tonight.

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, another Army report today of torture, abuse, commanders not paying attention and not enough troops at Abu Ghraib Prison.

BROWN: Barbara, thank you. Finally to the fighting in Iraq and the figure who is stepping into the breach what appears to be a major moment, CNN's John Vause in Baghdad tonight, John the headline.

JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Aaron, Muqtada al-Sadr has repeatedly defied the U.S., repeatedly defied the Iraqi interim government but the grand ayatollah is back after three weeks in London and he's had enough of the fighting in Najaf -- Aaron.

BROWN: John, thank you. We'll get back to you and the rest shortly.

Also coming up on the program tonight, the hunt for al Qaeda inside the United States, is an attack imminent? Are officials convinced even that there is a plot?

Sixty years after the allied liberation of Paris, we look at what the French really think about the United States today.

And the fine print tonight in black and white and more and more in color, morning papers at the end of the hour, all that and more in the hour ahead.

We begin tonight with a campaign and what appears to be a shift in tactics on the Kerry side. Instead of downplaying the swift boat story, the Senator's people today practically embraced it, turning it where they believe they could to the candidate's advantage, even as they extended its life.

On a certain level this is pretty standard fare straight from the campaign playbook of either party but it also represents a calculated risk and the calculation may, may tell us something.

We have two reports tonight beginning first with CNN's Joe Johns.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The gloves are coming off the for the Kerry campaign over the swift boat controversy. They just put a new ad on television. In Ohio, Kerry's running mate, John Edwards, was lashing out at the original attack ad that started the controversy.

SEN. JOHN EDWARDS (D), VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: They're lies financed by friends of the president and I just want to say I think they were intended to say something about the character of John Kerry. Every day it goes on, it says something about the character of George W. Bush.

JOHNS: The Kerry campaign is betting that the tide has turned against the swift boat vets and that the ads may be backfiring on the president. It argues that debating Kerry's record in Vietnam will only help its cause. The only evidence it's offering so far is anecdotal. The campaign says it's being swamped by calls from angry veterans, like this man in Green Bay. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it's a damn shame with Bush and his other two draft dodging buddies cutting the feet out from under this wonderful man.

JOHNS: And Vietnam vet Dennis Markovsky who says he was contacted by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth but refused to join their cause.

DENNIS MARKOVSKY, VIETNAM VETERAN: I think any veteran that criticizes another veteran what happened 35 years ago and wasn't even in that area is very shameful.

JOHNS: With surrogates and TV ads now making the case on Vietnam, Kerry turned his attention to other things on Wednesday coming out swinging on the Iraq prisoner abuse scandal, trying to pin the blame on civilian leadership and the Bush administration.

SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And it's not just the little person at the bottom who ought to pay the price of responsibility. Harry Truman had that sign on the desk and it said, "The buck stops here." The buck doesn't stop at the Pentagon.

JOHNS: The Bush campaign accuses Kerry of exploiting the Iraq war for political purposes.

(on camera): A Republican strategist scoffed at the campaign's claims that the swift boat controversy could have somehow turned to Kerry's advantage. They point out that the swift boat veterans' book is now selling off the shelves and that the campaign had to spend a lot of time and money defending Kerry's resume.

Joe Johns CNN, Green Bay, Wisconsin.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Set that now against two other headlines today, one arguably nothing more than a moment of high political theater, the other more serious at least for today.

It involves the Bush campaign's top lawyer, now the Bush campaign's former top lawyer, a man on record as opposing independent political groups on either side but a man who also did work for one of them, the swift boat vets.

He did nothing illegal and in the world of today's politics nothing even unusual. There are Democrats doing much the same thing.

Ben Ginsberg is not just any Republican lawyer and his job with the campaign was not just any old job, so again from Crawford, Texas tonight CNN's Suzanne Malveaux.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX (voice-over): The Bush campaign's top lawyer, Ben Ginsberg, took center stage when he resigned after admitting he was working as an adviser to both the Bush campaign and a group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth but Ginsberg insists his work was kept separate.

BENJAMIN GINSBERG, FMR. BUSH CAMPAIGN LAWYER: The way the laws of coordination are written that is perfectly appropriate. It is as appropriate as my Democratic colleagues on the other side doing precisely the same thing.

MALVEAUX: Ginsberg says in his letter of resignation to President Bush he is stepping down "to ensure that the giving of legal advice to decorated military veterans, which was entirely within the boundaries of the law, doesn't distract from the real issues upon which you and the country should be focusing."

A Kerry campaign aide said the Ginsberg flap was just another part of "the extensive web of connections between George Bush and the group trying to smear John Kerry's military record."

Max Cleland, Vietnam veteran, Kerry supporter and triple amputee went to President Bush's Texas ranch to deliver a similar message suggesting the president could stop the attack ads that have been at the center of the controversy, which have criticized Kerry's service.

President Bush sent out Vietnam veteran and local Bush supporter Jerry Patterson to receive Cleland's letter and to give him a note in return, written by the Bush campaign with a message to Kerry condemning him for not supporting the troops. Cleland refused to exchange letters with the Bush surrogate. Instead, he turned to the cameras.

MAX CLELAND (D), FORMER SENATOR: The question is where is George Bush's honor? The question is where is his shame to attack a fellow veteran who has distinguished himself in combat regardless of the political combat involved is disgraceful.

MALVEAUX: Bush aides dismiss Cleland's visit as political theater.

SCOTT MCCLELLAN, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: Senator Kerry says that he wants to talk about the issues. Today's political stunt is an interesting way of showing it.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MALVEAUX: Now, while both sides say they want the swift boat controversy to go away that is far from certain. At least one Democratic Congressman John Dingle is calling Attorney General John Ashcroft to lead an investigation into possible links between the group and the Bush campaign -- Aaron.

BROWN: All right. From the White House, which is in Washington the last time I checked do they want this story to go away or are they comfortable with how it's playing out?

MALVEAUX: Well there are pros and cons to this because Bush aides will say on the plus side they can make their case that there's been $60 million worth of these anti-Bush ads that have been linked to the Kerry campaign and they say that it prevents Kerry from talking about the issues that voters really care about.

On the downside, of course, that this was not a good day for the Bush campaign. This was a day when, of course, one of their advisers resigned and they had a lot of explaining to do when it came to those ads but they say that as long as this continues they will continue to make their case, their argument that the Democrats are doing very much the same.

BROWN: Suzanne, thank you, Suzanne Malveaux at the White House tonight. We have more on the politics of all this coming up a little bit later in the program.

On to other matters first, one after another reports on Abu Ghraib confirm what the unforgettable pictures show, horrific images of American soldiers humiliating, tormenting, in some cases torturing Iraqi prisoners.

The question in all these reports remains the same, not just who should be charged but how high those charges should go, from the Pentagon tonight, CNN's Barbara Starr.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

STARR (voice-over): Fifty-three people who worked at Abu Ghraib either participated in the violent sexual abuse that took place, knew about and didn't report it or failed to command their troops.

The Fay/Jones investigation of the intelligence operations at the prison emphasized that Abu Ghraib was understaffed, interrogation policies were confused and it wasn't clear who was in charge. In some cases there was torture but investigators stopped short of holding the top commander in Iraq, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, directly accountable for the prison scandal.

GEN. PAUL KERN, U.S. ARMY: We did not find General Sanchez culpable but we found him responsible for the things that did or did not happen.

STARR: There was limited cooperation from the CIA on eight ghost detainees, Iraqis secretly held at the U.S. military prison by the agency.

MAJ. GEN. GEORGE FAY, U.S. ARMY: They made it very clear to me that they're going to conduct their own thorough, detailed investigation.

STARR: The report found the commander of the intelligence brigade at Abu Ghraib, Colonel Thomas Pappas, failed to make sure his troops were fully trained, improperly authorized the use of dogs during interrogations and failed to make sure dogs were muzzled, the use of military dogs at the prison horrific in the words of General Kern.

KERN: MP dog handlers were subjecting two adolescents to terror from the dogs for the purposes of playing a game between the two dog teams to see how poorly they could get these kids to behave and that specifically to see if they could get their bowel movements and their urination to work.

STARR: So, what now? Army officials say the military cases will be referred to commanders for action, reprimand or criminal investigations that could lead to charges. Contractor cases will be referred to the Justice Department but the Army is also revising how it will handle detainees in future wars.

Barbara Starr, CNN, the Pentagon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Where this all leads ought to be simple enough, though in practice it rarely is. We raised a few of the many questions the story presents with retired General Don Shepperd. We spoke with the general late this afternoon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: General in the last two days we've had two very significant reports on Abu Ghraib come out. As we sit here tonight can you tell me in your mind how high in the chain of command charges will fall?

MAJ. GEN. DON SHEPPERD (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Aaron, I think charges themselves, and when you say charges you're talking about disciplinary action as opposed to letters of reprimand. I think they probably will stop at the military intelligence brigade level and the military police brigade level. That's probably where the charges themselves will stop. That isn't where damage will stop. A lot of people's reputation and careers will be damaged as a result of this.

BROWN: Well, let's talk about that. So, are we talking about Colonel Pappas here?

SHEPPERD: I think clearly Colonel Pappas and Brigadier General Karpinski, both from the 205th Military Intelligence Brigade, will very likely face further action perhaps under the UCMJ. That's still to be investigated and I don't mean to prejudge them but from everything we've heard it looks like it's headed in that direction.

BROWN: Let me ask you about this then. There was a story today that there is talk that Colonel Pappas, who was the intelligence guy at the prison, may be granted immunity for his testimony against the lower ranking people who have been charged which, and this is editorial, may be the first time the big fish has been immunized to get the small fish.

SHEPPERD: Yes. I'd be very careful. I'd be careful about believing that. I would find that difficult to -- it doesn't normally happen in legal proceedings and also from the political standpoint and this is clearly political as well as legal that would be very difficult for the public to stomach.

BROWN: When you talk about political tell me what you mean.

SHEPPERD: Well, I mean everything that happens over there now in this highly-charged political atmosphere of a presidential campaign is going to be viewed through those lenses.

There are going to be people that say, hey, the president's responsible. The secretary of defense is responsible. General Abizaid is responsible. Everybody up and the down needs to be fired. The buck stops here. That's the harsh reality of a presidential campaign.

BROWN: Let's set aside in fact what should happen up the chain of command and not. The report out yesterday, the Schlessinger report was pretty clear that the chain of command, very high up in the chain of command, made critical mistakes which allowed this stuff to happen. There weren't enough people there. The training was inadequate.

There's a basic rule, it seems to me that I remember from boot camp, which is that rank has its privileges and rank has its responsibilities and I guess I want to know to what extent people who are responsible for setting troop levels, responsible for training are held accountable here.

SHEPPERD: Yes. That's a really difficult question to answer but you've got your finger on the right issue. You as a parent, even though you didn't do it, you're held responsible for what your kids do. And, in the military, with command goes the responsibility. Whatever happens on your watch you're responsible for.

For instance, Lieutenant General Ricardo Sanchez, commander of the Joint Task Force in Iraq. He is probably one of the finest officers you would ever meet in uniform. He is clearly going to be very damaged by this. He was nominated to the Senate for promotion to four stars and that has been put on hold as a result of this. He's responsible for what happened to him in Iraq.

The judgment question is well how high above him do you go? But clearly, clearly people in the chain of command issued directives that were confusing. They also did not provide the resources, the manning and the training. That's what all these reports have in common. That's what they all say.

BROWN: General, it's been a while since we talked. It's good to see you.

SHEPPERD: My pleasure.

BROWN: Thank you, sir, very much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: Don Shepperd, we talked with him late this afternoon.

Ahead on the program tonight, Iraq's most influential Shia cleric calls out the faithful to help rescue the city as the battle for Najaf rages on.

And later, has George W. Bush convinced you he is the man for the future? Senior Analyst Jeff Greenfield looks to the past for some answers. From New York this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Every death in Iraq triggers a dreaded knock on the door back home. In Florida today, a distraught father climbed into a military van and set it on fire after learning that his son was killed in Najaf.

He suffered serious burns over much of his body before being pulled from the flames by the Marines who delivered the news. It's not clear if he was trying to commit suicide or if any charges will be filed. I can't imagine.

In Najaf in the meantime, forces loyal to Muqtada al-Sadr took another heavy pounding from American jets and helicopters, ordinance landing within 30 yards of the shrine and the Marines occupying one of the outbuildings nearby and there continue to be reports that the Mehdi Army has reached a breaking point.

But regardless, in just a few hours, the scene in Najaf is expected to change entirely with the return of perhaps the single most important man in Iraq at this moment, reporting for us tonight from Baghdad, CNN's John Vause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE (voice-over): Destination Najaf, a convoy of SUVs and pickup trucks, surrounded by Iraqi National Guardsmen and police protecting the one man who perhaps has the respect and the following to bring the standoff at the Imam Ali Mosque to a peaceful end.

For three weeks, the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani watched from his hospital bed in London where he underwent heart surgery but now he's back in Iraq and Thursday plans to return to his home in Najaf, calling on all Iraqis to join him, a call supported by other senior Shiite leaders.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The crisis has to be solved through reason and logic and peaceful means and through the departure of the armed elements from the city and the holy shrine and then restoring law and order.

VAUSE: A sign of al-Sistani's influence, within hours the faithful were leaving Baghdad for Najaf.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We obey Sayyid al- Sistani and we are going on foot to the Imam Ali Mosque to protect him with our souls.

VAUSE: At least two of his followers may have already paid with their lives. About 1,000 were marching from the city of Kufa to neighboring Najaf when gunfire erupted. It's not known who was shooting.

It's widely believed that al-Sistani brokered a short-lived ceasefire back in June. And earlier this year when he called for demonstrations demanding national elections be held sooner, hundreds of thousands took to the streets in Baghdad alone.

The Mehdi militia remains inside the Imam Ali Mosque, their numbers dwindling. Outside they are completely surrounded by U.S. and Iraqi forces. The police chief there is warning the grand ayatollah it's too dangerous right now but for the people of Najaf, who've endured three weeks of heavy fighting, news al-Sistani is coming home is reason to hope.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): We hope that Sayyid al- Sistani will come to Najaf and get rid of this crisis for us. We are getting tired.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

VAUSE: Now the grand ayatollah's focus is getting the Mehdi militia out of the Imam Ali Mosque and all foreign forces, including American to leave the city. Security would then be handed back to the Iraqi police.

But that, it seems, is as far as al-Sistani is willing to go leaving one question, at least one question unanswered and that's what to do with the junior cleric and his Mehdi militia once they leave the shrine -- Aaron.

BROWN: This is -- this is as unpredictable a moment that's about to unfold as you can imagine, in part I think because most of our viewers are American viewers. It's hard for us to imagine the sheer charisma and power of the Grand Ayatollah al-Sistani.

VAUSE: This is the senior Shiite leader in all of Iraq. He's a grand ayatollah. There's only seven grand ayatollahs in all of Islam. He's 73 years old. He has lived through Saddam Hussein. He has survived tyranny. He has survived oppression. He commands incredible respect and he is by some reports very annoyed at the upstart junior cleric and now he has decided that it is time to act.

BROWN: He's also been relatively moderate and somewhat unpredictable. He hasn't necessarily been a great supporter of the Americans either, so how this all plays out is, I think it's fair to say, impossible to predict.

VAUSE: Well, the thing about al-Sistani is that while he has not been a great supporter of the United States or the Iraqi interim government he has been one of the few voices who has been urging dialog, urging negotiations between all parties and urging and end to the violence saying that the situation in Iraq can only be resolved through negotiations.

An armed uprising is not the answer and that Iraqis should negotiate and bring about a speedy end to what he calls the American occupation here. So, while he's not a supporter, he is a very moderate voice especially from all the voices that we're hearing in Iraq right now and, yes, he is the one man who maybe can bring this all to an end. BROWN: John, I think you've got a full day ahead of you.

VAUSE: Yes.

BROWN: Thank you very much, John Vause in Baghdad.

We're joined now by retired Army Lieutenant Colonel Ralph Peters, columnist, author of "Beyond Baghdad: Postmodern War and Peace," a fair bit for us to talk about. It's always good to see you, Ralph. Thank you for joining us.

LT. COL. RALPH PETERS (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Hey.

BROWN: Let's start, we'll work our way back to Abu Ghraib, if you don't mind. You've been pretty tough, I think, on how the administration, the Pentagon has handled some of these standoffs. You were very tough on how they handled or mishandled, in your view, Fallujah. How have they handled Najaf?

PETERS: Well, Najaf is tougher than Fallujah. Fallujah was amenable to a direct military solution. We were just too slow. In Najaf, the Shrine of the Imam Ali definitely complicates it. It's, you know, the closest comparison I can come is that it's a Shia Vatican. That's not a perfect comparison but that will give you some idea. And the Mehdi Army and Muqtada al-Sadr would be easy to destroy militarily had they not used the shrine as a fortress.

And, by the way, Aaron, the Muslims certainly aren't stupid. They know that what Muqtada al-Sadr is doing is wrong. It's against their religion and the overwhelming majority of Muslims, Shia or Sunni, but especially the Shia it's their shrine, want him gone.

And, if I may, what's curious today with the Abu Ghraib report released today and one yesterday, of problems in Najaf, in Fallujah and elsewhere are directly related. I mean they have the same roots as the Abu Ghraib problem, woefully inadequate planning for the occupation of Iraq, insufficient troops and a dreadful leadership climate at the highest levels.

BROWN: All right. We've kind of dovetailed over to Abu Ghraib and raise the issues that the report raises, so I'll ask you the same question as I asked -- or at least one of the questions I asked General Shepperd and that is, look, there are people who made these decisions and defended the personnel levels, the training levels, all of that and they all say they accept responsibility and none of them are really being held accountable.

PETERS: Yes. That's the big weakness with the reports. Certainly the thugs in uniform who perpetrated those acts at Abu Ghraib are guilty and they need to go to prison but really some of the officers in the chain of command do as well, if they are proved culpable.

But more importantly, I listened to you earlier, you were right. There's a military rule that a commander is responsible for everything his or her soldiers do or fail to do and that would apply at least up to the level of the secretary of defense.

And this notion that the little guys are guilty, and they are guilty, but that the people who made the colossal mistakes that jeopardized a worthy war of liberation and the chances of the Iraqi people and mistakes that are still killing American soldiers every day they walk away.

I mean I'm not a John Kerry fan but in this instance he's right. Secretary Rumsfeld and his civilian paladins need to go and President Bush should have cleaned house a year ago.

BROWN: Ralph, I want to get one more question and I don't have a whole lot of time. Back to Abu Ghraib, is there any evidence that you know of that the scandal there has damaged the American ability to gain information?

PETERS: Yes, on multiple levels. The most immediate level is, you know, we've taken the American response to a scandal or a problem and we've over reacted and my friends in the military are a bit disheartened because now they are under so many strictures about how they can interrogate that it really has hampered our ability to collect information that keeps Americans alive.

BROWN: Good to see you, sir. Thank you for joining us tonight.

PETERS: Great to talk to you.

BROWN: Thank you, sir.

Coming up on NEWSNIGHT still, searching for terrorists inside the U.S. Is an attack certain and is there a target time and place?

And, remembering the liberation of Paris 60 years ago today.

Around the world this is NEWSNIGHT.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: In some respects, the war on terror is like a standard police investigation, arrest a suspect and try and turn him, or look through his notes, his diaries, his computer discs. That leads to others who perhaps will lead to others still. That, in essence, is what this story is about, an investigation that started in Pakistan, that landed in London and may well end up in the United States.

Here's CNN's Kelli Arena.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KELLI ARENA, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Demonstrators proclaim the innocence of one of the men being held in British custody, but counterterrorism sources tell CNN evidence strongly suggests the eight suspects were actively planning to attack targets in Britain.

Sources say the evidence is less convincing when it comes to an imminent plot to strike the United States.

TOM RIDGE, HOMELAND SECURITY SECRETARY: First of all, there is no information today about the time and place and manner.

ARENA: When the men were arrested, officials found surveillance of U.S. financial institutions similar to evidence found in Pakistan. Officials have told CNN that one of the men, Dhiren Barot, also known as Eisa al-Hindi, personally conducted some of that surveillance in 2000 and 2001.

Government sources now say two of the other men in custody were with him in New York at the time. Officials have said that surveillance was updated as recently as this spring.

RICHARD FALKENRATH, FORMER WHITE HOUSE HOMELAND SECURITY OFFICIAL: We know for sure that they're targeting the U.S. homeland and they would like to strike here. But we have not yet uncovered an operation. Now, it may mean that they don't have an operation here yet. That would be the best case. But it may also mean that they have one here and we just haven't found it yet.

ARENA: CNN has learned, as a direct result of the British arrests and earlier operations in Pakistan, the FBI is conducting at least half a dozen surveillance operations in the United States, including in New York and the Washington area. It's all being hailed as a major success, but is it?

BRUCE HOFFMAN, RAND CORPORATION: This is a movement that is able to replenish its ranks with a greater facility than we imagine.

ARENA: There are aggressive manhunts under way for at least two alleged al Qaeda operatives thought to be involved in current planning, Adnan El Shukrijumah, who investigators believe may try to illegally enter the United States through Mexico, and Abu Faraj al- Libbi. Investigators describe him as a senior operational planner thought to be hiding along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border.

(on camera): But no one is discounting the old guard. Officials say evidence shows that Osama bin Laden was in communication with one of the men recently arrested in Pakistan, alleged computer expert Mohammad Naeem Noor Khan.

Kelli Arena, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: In Russia, investigators are working to solve the mystery of what caused two passenger planes to crash at nearly the same time yesterday. The planes went down within minutes of each other after taking off from Moscow, the crash sites about 450 miles apart. Coincidence or not remains the question; 89 people died. There were no survivors in either crash. Russian officials said today they have uncovered no solid evidence of terrorism yet. Both planes' flight data recorders have been recovered and will obviously be searched for clues. Still to come on the program tonight, is the country in the mood for four more years of George W. Bush? Jeff Greenfield joins us with a history lesson and some answers to the question.

And the crossword puzzle is one. My horoscope is the other -- all that in your morning papers still to come.

This is NEWSNIGHT on CNN.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Oscar Wilde once said, I can resist everything except temptation. Ed Koch often said, how am I doing? Ed meet Oscar. Oscar, Ed.

Tonight, with his convention about to begin, the temptation is to ask how the president is doing, the temptation pretty darn resistible.

So Ed and Oscar, meet Jeff, as in Jeff Greenfield.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JEFF GREENFIELD, CNN SR. ANALYST (voice-over): If you want to know where President Bush stands as his renomination nears, you might be tempted to look at history. The only problem is, history isn't much of a help this year. It offers news both good and bad for this sitting president.

The good news, the president has a united Republican Party behind him. In fact, Bush is doing even better among Republicans than Ronald Reagan did in 1984. When a sitting president has problems within his own party, he either doesn't run at all, Truman in 1952, LBJ in '68, or he loses, Ford in '76, Carter in '80, Bush I in '92. A united base usually means the president wins again.

The bad news, Democrats are united, too. When an incumbent's challenger can't unite his own party, a second term is a lock, LBJ in '64, Nixon in '72. But Kerry's doing just about as well with Democrats as Bush is with Republicans. The good news? The economy is growing. Economists expect it to grow by close to 4 percent in this quarter. And inflation is under 3 percent. Generally speaking, presidents who run with those kinds of economic numbers win reelection.

The bad news? Unlike past recoveries, this one is producing a very weak jobs growth picture. Indeed, as Democrats never tire of saying, the president's first term will almost surely see a net loss of jobs. And the wage growth that accompanied the boom of the late '90s is nowhere to be seen. Moreover, if gasoline prices spike upward, that will be felt right in the consumers' pocketbook.

Now, what about the president's job approval rating? This is historically a reliable guide to reelection. If you're under 50 percent, Ford, Carter, Bush I, you lose. Over 50 percent, Nixon, Reagan, Clinton, you win. So where is President Bush? Smack in the middle. Depending on what poll you read, he's either just under 50 percent or barely above it.

(on camera): All of which tells us what? Well, the country is not in a four-more-years mood, as it was with Reagan and Clinton. It is not heavily disposed toward showing President Bush the door, but it is leaning more toward change than continuity, which means President Bush has to do at least one of two things, either convince the voters that his second term will be better than the first or convince the voters that the alternative of John Kerry is simply unacceptable.

Jeff Greenfield, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: A little more political talk about the president, the senator, about swift boats and old wars and other things, too, CNN's Bill Schneider with us tonight.

The convention starts in a few days. What do the Republicans need to accomplish?

WILLIAM SCHNEIDER, CNN SR. POLITICAL ANALYST: I think what they want to do is recreate the Bush after 9/11, the Bush that created broad unity in the country and in the world.

You know, for one year after September 11, 2001, he was on top of the world. The whole world...

BROWN: How do you do that?

SCHNEIDER: Because the whole world supported the United States in Afghanistan.

BROWN: No, but how do you do that?

SCHNEIDER: How do you do that?

By recalling those images, the images of Bush at ground zero, when he said, you can't hear me, but I can hear you, the image of Bush leading the world in Afghanistan. That was a year when most Democrats supported President Bush. It is almost forgotten now.

BROWN: But a lot of water has gone over the dam since then. And most of it is named Iraq.

SCHNEIDER: Right. Right.

And they're also going to try to recall the compassionate conservative, which Democrats find outrageous, because they say this guy got elected on false pretenses, Democrats say. He claimed to be a compassionate conservative and in their view and I think by most objective evidence, he's been the most conservative president in modern history.

BROWN: The Republicans during the Democratic Convention talked about the extreme makeover. If you look at the list of prime-time speakers the Republicans are going to trot out, you could make the same argument. They're not necessarily the heart and soul of a conservative party.

SCHNEIDER: That's right. This is a show.

The Democrats put on a show. The Democrats are an anti-war party. They came out of the anti-Vietnam War movement, and yet they hailed their candidate as a war hero from Vietnam. They opposed Iraq, overwhelmingly, but it didn't seem to come up very much. They put on a military show at their convention.

Well, the Republicans are putting on a show. They're a conservative party and they have a lot of moderate speakers, John McCain, Rudy Giuliani, George Pataki and the star-quality speaker, Arnold Schwarzenegger, who is very much a moderate, not a conservative among them.

BROWN: Let me turn you, with some apology, to swift boats. Tell me the -- if you think there is wisdom -- the wisdom or the calculation at least that the Kerry people are making to keep this -- I mean, they clearly today decided to keep the story running.

SCHNEIDER: Right.

BROWN: They wanted another day out of it or another couple days out of it. If ultimately this is a referendum, as you've told me countless times on a sitting president, what sense does that make?

SCHNEIDER: They think that Bush's credibility as a leader has been challenged because they believe he is now associated with the smear campaign. The line the Democrats are pressing -- this is what Max Cleland said.

This is what Kerry and Edwards are saying is this, three Vietnam veterans in four years, first, John McCain in 2000, second, Max Cleland in 2002, third, John Kerry this year. They're accusing him of smearing the reputation of Vietnam veterans. And there's one central fact in all this, they say. Bush didn't go to Vietnam. Kerry did. How dare he? They think that they've impugned his credibility and therefore, they have him at least on the run in the sense that some serious questions are being raised now that there's conflicting evidence, testimony from other veterans and also ties between the swift boat veterans group and the Bush/Cheney campaign.

BROWN: And, in five seconds, do you think they're making the right calculation?

SCHNEIDER: Don't know. I don't know. It's a risky one.

BROWN: You weaseled out of that one.

SCHNEIDER: I certainly did.

(LAUGHTER)

BROWN: We'll see how you do next week. You'll be with us much of the week. Thank you.

SCHNEIDER: OK.

BROWN: Thank you, Bill. Good to see you.

Ahead on the program tonight, remembering the liberation of Paris; 60 years ago today, American forces helped bring freedom back to the French.

This is NEWSNIGHT from New York.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Lessons of war can be timeless. And this, we suspect, is just one of them. Being under the control of an occupying power ensures at least this. You do not forget, at least not easily, the day of your liberation. And so it was in Paris today, reliving the glory of August the 25th, six decades ago.

Here's CNN's Jim Bittermann.

JIM BITTERMANN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): For much of the summer now, 1,000 French volunteers have been learning the dance steps and the emotions of 60 years ago. It was a glorious moment the day Paris was liberated. And those in charge of the commemorations wanted to reflect not just the joy, but the real tension of the day in which people were still getting killed even as they celebrated.

JEROME SAVARY, DIRECTOR: And you were dancing and suddenly your partner was falling down killed by a sniper from the roof, you know? And this atmosphere never happened again anywhere in the world. It's a unique, unique day of (UNINTELLIGIBLE) drama and emotion.

BITTERMANN (on camera): As important and emotional as it may have been for Parisians, the liberation of the French capital had tremendous symbolic value for everyone else. If the allies had gotten here, after all, the end of the world war could not be long off.

(voice-over): Just like 60 years ago, there was enthusiastic applause as the American flag once again came waving down the Paris boulevards. These are the Americans, even if they're only actors playing the part, the French love to remember. Serge Olye (ph) was a 15-year-old Paris chimney sweep at the time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For us, America means freedom, you know?

BITTERMANN: The Americans are remembered as liberators here, if not everywhere else, in part because after six days of pitched street battles between members of the French resistance and their Nazi occupiers, American General Dwight Eisenhower decided to let French General Charles de Gaulle and his right-hand man, General Leclerc, lead the first tank column into Paris.

GUILLAUME PARMENTIER, FRENCH FOREIGN RELATIONS INSTITUTION: Eisenhower was very enlightened from that point of view. And I think the French are well aware of the fact that obviously Leclerc could not have done it by himself or with his own forces, and therefore that the liberation essentially was due to the Americans. BITTERMANN: That decision permitted Parisians pride, as spelled out even the headlines 60 years on: "Paris Liberates Itself."

The legends were acted out again for the anniversary, the firemen who climbed to the top of the Eiffel Tower to install a French flag and the gathering on the spot where the city was proclaimed free. The liberation of Paris, French President Jacques Chirac said, was finally a victory for the French army, permitting France to restore its honor and regain its place in the world.

They are dancing and singing here to mark the day their capital was freed, a moment so powerful that, even 60 years on, some who lived it cannot help but break into tears.

Jim Bittermann, CNN, Paris.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: There is a sad irony in an obituary we report tonight, the passing of Elisabeth Kubler-Ross. She's a psychiatrist whose book on death and dying put forth the theory that the terminally ill go through five stages of grief: denial and anger, then bargaining, then depression, and finally acceptance.

She pioneered the concept of hospice care, after deciding the medical world wasn't addressing the terminally ill patient's need to die with dignity. Ms. Kubler-Ross was 78 when she died today after a long illness. Her son said, she wasn't afraid of death. She saw it as a kind of graduation.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(ROOSTER CROWING)

BROWN: OK, time to check morning papers. We'll do this really fast tonight, so you might want to TiVo it and go back and look at it later to figure out what the heck I was talking about.

"International Herald Tribune." "Shiite Cleric Looks to Broker a Deal. Sistani Returns to Iraq Hoping to End Najaf Rebellion, as U.S. Forces Close in." Down at the bottom, "Thatcher's" -- well, why don't I do it that way? Why not show you a big headline? "The Times" in London. "Thatcher." This is the son of Margaret Thatcher, Mark, "Held Over Coup Plot. Former Premier's Son Protests Innocence, Faces 15 Years in Prison in South Africa." He's accused of financing a coup attempt in Equatorial Guinea. Yikes.

"The Cincinnati Enquirer" leads local. "Allen Admits to Affair With Employee. 'Worst Mistake of My Life,' Prosecutor Says." Goodness.

"The Philadelphia Inquirer." "More Accused at Abu Ghraib." That's their big front-page story, but I think the story we would all read first in Philadelphia is in the middle there. "A Final Salute to a Firefighter. 'He Died Doing What Most Guys Say They Do,' Says One Union Leader," and getting the full salute in Philadelphia. That's a sad tale, that.

The other Philadelphia paper, "The Daily News." For some reason, I think they're owned by the same company, but I'm probably wrong on that. "City Worker Stole $32,000 and Wants Her Job Back." Is that a great tabloid headline or what?

"The Washington Times." I just think this is amusing. "A Drop in Oil Costs Buoys Investors' Hopes." Yes, great deal. Oil dropped to about $43 a barrel today.

Go to "The Chicago Tribune" -- no, "The Chicago Sun-Times." "Chicago Tribune" doesn't send us a paper. We'll have to talk to them about that.

The weather tomorrow in Chicago...

(CHIMES)

BROWN: Thank you -- is "surly."

Mike Ditka, by the way, is backing Alan Keyes. So, if you were wondering what Coach Ditka was doing, now you know.

We'll wrap it up in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: So, you're probably thinking, what's on "AMERICAN MORNING" tomorrow at 7:00 Eastern?

Here is Heidi Collins.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HEIDI COLLINS, CNN ANCHOR: Aaron, thanks.

Tomorrow on "AMERICAN MORNING," with dealers getting ready for next year's new model cars, now is one of the big times of the year to get a great deal on a new car, or is it? Our personal financial coach David Bach with us tomorrow showing us how to get the best deal possible and showing us what to watch out for, what you want to make sure doesn't happen to you when you go car shopping.

That's CNN tomorrow, 7:00 a.m. -- Aaron.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Heidi, thank you.

Good to have you all with us tonight. "LOU DOBBS TONIGHT" next for most of you.

We'll all back tomorrow, 10:00 Eastern time. Until then, good night for all of us at NEWSNIGHT.

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